Datasets:

EJinHF

/

QMSum_BART_format

like 0

what did the group think about microphone position on the remote control ? </s> project manager: okay , welcome everyone to our next meeting . i 'm busy writing and busy leading the meeting , but um i 've prepared a little presentation once again um or at least an agenda i think uh the biggest part of the presentation will be uh on your side . um we are here at the conceptual design meeting , which is hereby opened . um once again i will try to uh write some minutes which i just from the previous meeting uh placed inside our project folder , which was quite some typing . um today we once again have uh three presentations , if i 'm right , and after that we will take a decision on the remote control concepts . and just as the last time we have forty minutes to accomplish that . okay , well industrial designer: project manager: i 'd say let 's start with the first presentation . marketing: 'kay . project manager: um in the same order as last time ? industrial designer: w sure . user interface: mm . alright . project manager: okay . well , take it away . user interface: industrial designer: okay uh welcome you all . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: components design , um uh first of all uh i would like to uh uh accommodate some of those uh things i uh uh elaborate some of the things i did . i i elaborated on the concept . what should be um uh said about uh the components , uh its properties and what kind of materials should we use to uh to make uh one of those r remote controls . uh well first of all i 've uh d subtracted some of the components that is that are used uh are w w um you know from what uh the remote control 's formed . uh first of all , the case , the case , the surrounding of the of the the remote control . i would like to uh give you an idea of uh how i thought about . marketing: do n't destroy my giraffe . industrial designer: giraffe 's gone now . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: okay um the case was is made from rubber , i suppose . there 's one of the because when you use a remote control a lot of people uh will uh will uh drop their remote control marketing: drop it . user interface: hmm . industrial designer: and they break uh becau the uh titanium was also an option . but uh it 's a very expensive material . uh rubber is , i think , uh the best suitable uh material uh to use uh for our uh for our remote control . um it 's poss it 's also possible to uh create fancy colours with rubber . uh rubber l makes it easy to uh to to it lets lets itself colour . uh titanium uh you have to paint it and with that uh it 's possible to scratch it or uh yeah make it ugly . uh rubber uh the total uh piece of rubber that 's sor uh that 's that 's used uh to make the case is uh the same colour , so if you scratch it it 's still the same colour , perhaps uh it 's a little bit damaged . but it 's a very strong material . um i h i had an idea single covered uh curved , sorry , single curved . user interface: industrial designer: uh so it 's t two dimensional . i think it 's uh it 's best to draw oh user interface: it 's a colour . industrial designer: green . marketing: bright colour . fancy colour . forward . industrial designer: uh new . blank . okay . marketing: you have to go t industrial designer: let 's make it uh black . okay . i thought of an idea like this . oh that . um delete . blank . okay . so it also looks nice when it 's on your table . user interface: industrial designer: so you get uh it does n't lay flat down on the table , but it 's c it 's stands . marketing: oh it 's a side view . industrial designer: side view yes it 's side view so uh i i 'm not technically good at th three d_ modelling , user interface: industrial designer: but . marketing: industrial designer: um uh it 's just an idea i had so it 's uh it 's very uh so its also looks nice when it 's on the table . um the graphical user interface and the buttons , uh we also thought about that already . uh i thought about uh the lcd touch screen , which is uh is easy to clean too . one of the great uh advantages of the lcd screen you just use some or uh another uh cleaning uh uh cl some cleaning stuff . user interface: industrial designer: and um it should be made of strong plastic and it should be bright . well i already uh s uh explained some properties of that material and i think uh well we also we almost concluded about that uh this should uh be uh our uh button component . marketing: true . industrial designer: so uh uh that 's all about uh the buttons . uh the batteries , uh we also thought about that already , uh will be chargeable with uh uh an option for a mount station so you can uh put the uh the remote control in a mount station so its charges itself up instead of uh plugging it in or something like that . questions , ? user interface: no . marketing: no no no no no . just looking . industrial designer: and they should be long lasting , not uh not be empty uh in about uh two minutes or uh thirty minutes or forty minutes of use . and next step is the chip uh th the component that 's uh makes or transmits the signal to the television . uh there was an option to use s a rather simple chip but i think uh because uh of our uh highly uh requiring uh requirements , there should be an advanced chip in it user interface: industrial designer: with uh also the ability to uh facilitate speaker speech recognition uh which unfortunately is still in a test phase , so uh there should be some more uh investigation on that side . uh my personal preferences uh i also overheard in the last meeting that there shou we should use uh our own business colours . that was correct , was n't it ? project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay . i think they are rather boring for um for use with rubber . user interface: project manager: well , business colours i thought it was the the slogan and uh the corporate image , so yeah , it needs colour , industrial designer: okay they should be m sh they should be in mind , project manager: but i do n't think you have to make the entire thing in the corporate colour . industrial designer: was n't it ? okay so it d it does n't says uh to uh have the slogan ? project manager: it must be recognisable . industrial designer: okay okay . well that 's possible of course . user interface: you can put the r_ and r_ . industrial designer: we could make a little r_ and r_ on the top of the machine . uh so they are pretty boring , i suggest , because just the availability with rubber to make fantastic colours uh and also in a lot of possible colours , so it 's possible to make very uh fancy uh remote controls which peopl uh who people in which people will find they 're uh interesting . and uh will buy uh them faster when they look at the same old grey or black uh colours . uh s as i said uh before rubber is uh is impossible to damage severely imp instead of uh of course you can break it when you you when you break it in s for example with a pair of scissors or something like that , but i if you drop it it 's not uh broken uh right away s instead of using uh plastic , hard plastic or uh titanium . and i personally liked uh the single curved uh remote control , because it yeah it makes sense . user interface: industrial designer: okay . well that 's all about my uh my findings . user interface: alright . project manager: okay , thank you . user interface: i will go next . marketing: mm mm mm . next . user interface: industrial designer: user interface: alright so industrial designer: user interface: i thought a little bit about the interface . uh how it should look . and uh uh we uh determined that will not be no buttons , but only an lcd screen , so i had to uh look on that . and the design is therefore based on what we just uh uh thought of . uh first there are some new findings and new technology for speech recognition . and this is that uh um uh uh you you ask you give a question through through the device and it answers you . and they already uh put this in an in a coffee maker . and so that it you say uh good morning , uh coffee maker , and it says t says to you back good morning joe or what 's your name . industrial designer: mm . user interface: this uh and there 's an easy way to uh program that uh you say record into the device into the speaker and then you say the question and three seconds later you say the answer and then when you say the question it gives you the answer . um perhaps it 's useful , industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm . user interface: perhaps for because people um lose the remote , industrial designer: mm . user interface: they can yell uh remote where are you and calls or something . industrial designer: marketing: it 's true . user interface: and perhaps we could uh implement that . industrial designer: user interface: and then i have to go out of the presentation because i tried to make some kind of a a idea of how it should look like industrial designer: oh my god . user interface: but i ca n't draw , so uh do n't make too much of it . i tried to uh the lcd screen i tried to sort of to draw . i thought uh at least uh the icon for the volume . i do n't know if there is an icon for the program , but industrial designer: not just a p_ . user interface: yeah . marketing: p_ yeah , just a p_ . user interface: so uh industrial designer: .. . user interface: and then the buttons above and uh below marketing: user interface: the and the and the mute button also recognisable as an icon . um . marketing: where 's where 's the button for two ? user interface: i forgot that one . i thought i forgot something , industrial designer: marketing: okay . user interface: but uh . industrial designer: user interface: and uh and uh the numbers , that should be a bit larger i think it 's not really on scale and and so forth . industrial designer: ah . marketing: does n't matter . user interface: um an options button . and i thought the the button for teletext apar uh apart because it 's not really options , i think . it 's uh options is the settings of the remote and of the tv and that kind of uh thing . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: no . user interface: so could call it settings or something . industrial designer: yep . user interface: but this is a bit uh how i thought it . and uh the lcd uh somewhere on the remote . perhaps we could be more curvy the remote perhaps should , so that it 's better in your hand or something uh . industrial designer: oh okay , user interface: but uh and and uh a microph microphone for the speech uh recognition if we want to implement that . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: uh and then uh if you press the op options button , now we have an example of and then you should get the other options with what what you could do and that you could do with something like this this . industrial designer: oh yeah , . user interface: and uh it 's also uh i thought think we discussed uh earlier that uh older people do n't really want to use uh these extra settings . and older people a also do n't really want to use this uh th this kind of option menus . so they want to u use one button and then something happens , and not choose with uh this kind of uh and you could put in a an a really s little scrolling device on the side of your uh remote , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so you could scroll scroll uh across these uh things . industrial designer: mm . okay . user interface: that 's an option . and that was my uh finding dinge . project manager: thanks . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: now our third industrial designer: go danny , go danny . project manager: team member with his presentation . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: okay , i 'm going to tell you something about a trend watching . the trends from the past years , what the people like , what the youngsters like , what the elderly people liked about shapes , colours , material and stuff . 'kay . the method i used was like i told i watched the trends from the past years about colours , shapes , material they wanted uh from elderly and young people . so we can keep that in mind for designing f uh the device itself . findings i made . the most important thing people liked last year was that the remote control should be look look fancy . the second important thing that w should be if inv in innov innovative , okay , like the lcd screen that 's quite innovative so that should be great meeting for this . and the third thing is it should be easy to use . i think with only one menu , four button , channel , volume , it should also be enough for easy to use . the personal preferences for the young people , they liked fruity colours like uh banana yellow , uh strawberry red and stuff . industrial designer: fruity ? user interface: grass green . industrial designer: fruity . marketing: yeah . like that . the round shapes , and soft material m materials like the rubber . industrial designer: mm . okay . marketing: it should be soft uh i it should feeling spongy or s sponge bob like things . user interface: let 's build it into a sponge . industrial designer: marketing: th elderly people like au colours which y are being seen in autumn like um woods um dark brown , red , deep reds and stuff . they liked square shapes with round edges . and hard materials like wood , um titanium . they those kind of materials they liked . this is a bit like the young peoples like the fruity colours , innovative , all the colours you see , the blue , the red , the white , the yellow , that stuff . and then i th i i personally thought the front side of the shape should be something for the youngsters like like project manager: oh y marketing: this or something . it 's it 's a bit like a banana . and the colour should be yellow , or something . industrial designer: marketing: and for the elderly people just plain old . because we decided to have two kind of remotes , two designs , or was it two colours ? user interface: it was one remote , i think , marketing: different colours , yeah . user interface: different colours . marketing: we should decide whether it 's going to be with round shapes . i think like my colleague , you said , is that 's e better , or for the elderly people something like like the ipod or something , with round squares . simple but user interface: marketing: easy to use . industrial designer: mm . marketing: so that 's it . project manager: so for the older people , a more traditional uh form . industrial designer: okay . marketing: that is my yeah , like the older o older colours i can maybe user interface: you could you could uh change the colours , that was also the idea . i do n't know which shape you should should take , marketing: yeah . user interface: but . marketing: colours th the elderly people project manager: yeah , i guess changing colours will be easier than changing uh user interface: yeah . industrial designer: changing just the shape of the uh remote control ? project manager: the shape of it . user interface: perhaps you could find something in the middle . round but square . industrial designer: yeah , s project manager: industrial designer: round corners , but s but square , yeah . project manager: but maybe then both groups wo n't buy it . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: user interface: uh i i if you do it uh uh square , with round corners but a little uh in the middle of it uh i do you know what i mean ? industrial designer: yeah i know what you mean , kind of like a . user interface: wait , like like this uh a bit . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so it 's a bit square , but it 's also a bit uh round . industrial designer: kinda like a beer glass . yeah . user interface: so but then industrial designer: i know what you mean . user interface: same sides . but that 's uh industrial designer: it 's also easy to to have to to put in your hand . user interface: yeah but that 's also how other remotes are shaped , so that 's uh but perhaps that 's a good thing , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so that 's easy to use . people know the industrial designer: will recognise that 's as a remote control . user interface: yeah . marketing: uh look something like that . autumn colours like red , brown . industrial designer: uh when i saw your d oh . marketing: they liked the wood a lot . industrial designer: huh . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: so maybe we could give it like wooden loo look look or something in that colour . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , kinda like old cars , uh marketing: and a bit bit old school style renaissance , medieval kind of things . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: swords . industrial designer: let 's put it all together . marketing: those kind of yeah , those kind of things . so you see the big difference between the young people ? fresh , exciting . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: and the old people , old and boring . user interface: but that 's easily to do with the colour , i think . project manager: marketing: so sorry ? user interface: that 's easy to do with the colours , i think . marketing: yeah i think it 's it 's easier to do in colour than in shape . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah we think so too . industrial designer: uh . marketing: because otherwise we have to get different shapes , and colour way easier than yeah the shapes . in material yeah rubber , rubber is , like i said , young people like more soft materials and spongy ones industrial designer: marketing: and the old people like plain wood . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so we have to decide if we 're going to use real hard rubber , or soft rubber . or something something between that . user interface: yeah think uh also in between . industrial designer: soft rubber . marketing: yeah soft rubber industrial designer: marketing: which you can you can feel in it . industrial designer: yeah i know what you um . user interface: i do n't think you should be able to mould it , marketing: or user interface: but industrial designer: it should should n't be . marketing: no . or or wh what 's something harder . no no no but but you have to like like like a a eraser or something . that 's the bit you can press it in , user interface: yeah . marketing: or something harder . industrial designer: uh . user interface: bit like this kind of rubber . this uh marketing: yeah , something like this , yeah . user interface: but it 's quite hard , this . marketing: yeah it 's quite hard but you can press it in . user interface: yeah . marketing: it 's feels kind s spongy . user interface: industrial designer: spongy . project manager: hmm . marketing: something . user interface: i do n't think it 's rubber . marketing: no . n n n project manager: so we need a spongy feeling . user interface: uh did you have something about uh marketing: are you going to invite sponge bob , maybe he can industrial designer: yeah . project manager: user interface: so we should first decide about shape , i think . industrial designer: ding ding . user interface: which uh marketing: yeah i think that 's the better thing to do . user interface: then you can fit the lcd screen in it , marketing: user interface: and can decide uh . industrial designer: um i also s uh ca n't help but notice that you uh used an you had a remote control user interface: industrial designer: and the lcd screen was uh rather small . um . marketing: yeah user interface: yeah marketing: w i think that lcd screen should be like user interface: it it 's supposed to be bit s bit s bit industrial designer: .. . this was your size , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but i think it should be larger . marketing: yeah three quarter of the of the industrial designer: yeah , three quarters . so uh so you do n't have to put your oh . marketing: yeah the buttons wo n't get that small when the lcd screen is industrial designer: uh new , blank . so uh when you get this uh user interface: marketing: user interface: ooh industrial designer: uh kinda like this . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: or should it be larger ? marketing: larger i think . industrial designer: larger ? because you want to put your hands user interface: but if you pu marketing: yeah user interface: now you can put your hand there and then you wo n't touch the screen . industrial designer: you want marketing: becau because you have user interface: perhaps that 's best . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah okay , true , true , true true . industrial designer: your thumb here . user interface: but not on the screen because yeah industrial designer: yeah . user interface: that 's uh that 's an idea . marketing: yeah . user interface: looks a bit like a game boy now . industrial designer: because when you put your f yeah but if yo if you make the the lcd screen as large as the remote control itself , uh you 'll you 'll always get some user interface: you always touch it , industrial designer: you user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah yeah yeah yeah . industrial designer: going to be very greasy and stuff . marketing: but it wo n't get that small because you have how much ? nine ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen fifteen buttons on the screen . user interface: yeah . marketing: one to zero , the two digit , industrial designer: yeah you do n't want it too small . how yeah how large marketing: you have to you have to because some fat people with d thick fingers will press three buttons at same time . industrial designer: yeah they have thick fingers . but if you wan na make it in international , japanese uh people got uh rather small hands marketing: yeah true , industrial designer: and we got these large marketing: but yeah , we have we have the zoom option , right ? industrial designer: zoom opt ah yeah of course , yeah . you can make it larger to to uh to uh with accompanying uh greater fields to push the button . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . and we wo n't include a a pen , or something to point , marketing: yeah . project manager: hey , we we want to do it with our fingers , marketing: no . project manager: right ? industrial designer: your fingers , yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: y you could include a pen industrial designer: you do n't want uh marketing: yeah . industrial designer: because if you lose the pen uh if you lose the pen uh you ca n't use marketing: use a pen you you c you can lose the pen . project manager: yeah but i think people want to use a remote with with their fingers because th they 're used to that marketing: yeah the fingers , yeah . user interface: yeah o yeah , if they think it 's handy to use a pen . project manager: and industrial designer: user interface: yeah i think this uh this is a good size for the screen . i do n't know how how large the actual remote should be but a little bit like this , or something . project manager: and maybe we have to add a tissue to remove the grease from all the fingers , huh . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah you can do whatever uh any uh cloth . marketing: yeah but that that can be with plain soft tissue . yeah , project manager: okay well marketing: you can buy those at project manager: maybe , if i can interrupt you , maybe i should uh should show some points on which we uh should take a decision . industrial designer: sure . project manager: so we can discuss these points . those points um energy question mark . how how should we uh supply the thing with energy and how are we going to do it with separate docking station and then put in it . uh chip on print and case . those are points my uh coach advised me to discuss here , but i hope you have ideas about them . marketing: user interface: i think energy were batteries and then uh and uh industrial designer: the docking station . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . so that 's the the the first point . marketing: maybe it 's better to to include rechargeable batteries project manager: we already decided that on the previous meeting . industrial designer: w user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: which you can recharge through the docking station . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . just like with the telephone . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so if the badg the batteries are dead industrial designer: i kinda like your marketing: then you can re you can uh change them . industrial designer: yeah you got some uh some of those uh uh wireless uh mice ? mouse . computer mouse . marketing: yeah yeah yeah like those . industrial designer: kinda like those kind of batteries . user interface: but it should be th i think normal batteries , marketing: yep . user interface: not not like two or two uh marketing: yeah , normal plain you no normal plain batteries you can buy at the supermarket or retail shop . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: simple rechargeable uh batteries . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . um what was with the chip on print ? industrial designer: the chip on print ? um uh you got ta f yeah . i think so . chip on print with a with a simple uh a sim not a simple but a marketing: print plate . industrial designer: we also discussed that . did n't we ? project manager: yeah but how did this how does that with a lcd screen ? you still have a print plate . industrial designer: uh marketing: yeah yeah yeah . you always have a print plate . industrial designer: beg your pardon ? marketing: you always have a print plate , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah sure , of course , yeah . marketing: right ? always , so i dunno what w what we have to decide about that . project manager: yeah well it 's a good question . user interface: marketing: project manager: it just was in there industrial designer: well uh project manager: and i did n't have any information about it , industrial designer: chip on print , i think what they mean uh with the regular rubber buttons that you got , uh it 's always clear for the remote control when you press uh a certain button . project manager: but mm-hmm . industrial designer: but when you got a lcd screen , with no uh with not the buttons are not always on the same place , marketing: yeah , okay . but industrial designer: for example if you enlarge a button , or if you got several options uh appearing on your screen , uh the co-ordinations are n't always the same . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: when you got a regular button , th the button of stand-by is always on the same place and you got on the and on the marketing: yeah okay , but the p print plate of l_ lcd screen is more advanced than a normal print plate , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so that that 's not of any discussion , i think . project manager: well you need some kind of c_p_u_ , i guess . industrial designer: i suppose so . marketing: mm , i do n't i dunno i do n't think that 's industrial designer: it is a simple c_p_u_ but it does n't marketing: yeah yeah okay but i d i i do n't know if nor o s it 's quite a simple lcd . industrial designer: yeah because it has to uh b marketing: yeah , it 's quite a simple lcd screen . i think they do n't need that big of c_p_u_ . industrial designer: yeah but it the the remote control has to know whether you 're in a settings menu or just uh you just want to turn up the volume . marketing: yeah , okay , true true . true . industrial designer: so it has to have some kind of a calculation unit or c_p_u_ user interface: industrial designer: to know uh in which state you are and uh which button you are pressing in at the right moment . project manager: mm-hmm . because we 're projecting projecting the buttons on the lcd screen . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: industrial designer: and a touch screen makes it uh possible to uh to get the co-ordination of your finger on the screen . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and the case , yeah we already discussed the case , user interface: it 's rubber . industrial designer: we wanted to make it from rubber user interface: yeah but but a hard rubber like this ? industrial designer: and uh user interface: or softer rubber or industrial designer: uh hard rubber i think . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: that 's the easy to ha uh to to uh marketing: yeah . user interface: it bounces back from the floor where you throw it . industrial designer: yeah . yeah sure , look . marketing: we have different colours . user interface: yeah yeah this in different colours ? industrial designer: d marketing: so the shapes is something between the square shapes with round colo corners and a round shapes ? no i do n't think , i think it 's more round than square . user interface: yeah it 's a bit . but i think it should be a bit longer , perhaps . marketing: so it meets i think it meets more the young people than the older people . project manager: yeah . but that 's what we want , . user interface: yeah . i think so too . marketing: yeah , that 's our target . yeah . industrial designer: it 's our main target . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: lower than forty years , i think industrial designer: well and how about my idea uh of making it um with one single curve ? marketing: it was . industrial designer: so i marketing: oh yeah that that i think i thought that was a quite good user interface: yeah . industrial designer: because it 's a gadget and you want to show it off , of course . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah yeah you have a fancy design , then , right away . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: uh . project manager: so industrial designer: because it marketing: you can put it on your table with the lcd screen , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: you do n't have to put it get it in your hand , you can put it next to you industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and then dive it in user interface: yeah , that 's a good idea . marketing: and . yeah . industrial designer: it 's a lot easier . user interface: yeah , alright . industrial designer: so , so marketing: so project manager: okay so industrial designer: you got uh user interface: and then industrial designer: did you write that down ? uh got a single curved uh rubber f uh fancy coloured remote control . user interface: marketing: you ca n't you you ca n't oh , you c you can draw it on your paper and then load it on the industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah , you can uh project manager: yeah but i wrote it down . user interface: it 's pretty easy but and marketing: and load it on the the user the server . project manager: what about the user interface , there are also some some questions uh about the concepts i think you have some ideas on that . user interface: yeah , project manager: you you showed your drawing . user interface: i had what i just uh i should again . i miss a few buttons , but . well . at least uh what we should also have on , i just remembered , um a menu to go back through the first uh if if you touch options , you ca n't go back to this uh right away now . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah , you have to go back . yeah uh uh . user interface: this marketing: is n't it better to have the sound and the general buttons horizontal ? user interface: i do n't know . marketing: with the minus and the plus . user interface: i think it 's marketing: i think it 's easier than user interface: i do n't know . i i thought it was uh easier to handle this way , marketing: yeah . user interface: but i do n't know what they think . industrial designer: sorry ? marketing: project manager: mm . user interface: would you like the the buttons horizontal or v vertical ? marketing: for sound and channel . user interface: th industrial designer: depends on the screen . if you make the screen vertical it does n't matter . if you make it uh in a rectangle user interface: right well if we make it like this , i think if you marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i so it 's it 's it 's it 's user interface: put it like this industrial designer: square . marketing: i think it 's it 's easier to have it something like oh a button uh minus here , plus over here . a minus here , plus over here . industrial designer: oh , okay . marketing: and on here . user interface: yeah . marketing: the other buttons and on here the top . user interface: yeah . marketing: the options and then you have something like uh the p_ over here , user interface: but i think i wou industrial designer: marketing: and the sound . user interface: i think that 's a matter of what you 're used to . marketing: something uh user interface: i think i would put a plus and a min uh here . and then the p_ in the mid in the middle and the sound uh in the middle . industrial designer: uh . marketing: something like user interface: marketing: sh project manager: industrial designer: take your time . user interface: marketing: plus minus plus uh user interface: almost . industrial designer: user interface: yeah marketing: minus . user interface: but i think when you are holding it , you could press the minus and the plus and with the other finger the minus and the plus . marketing: yeah i think you 're going to s you 're going to use it with one thumb . user interface: yeah but i think yeah i do n't know . perhaps i have some examples . industrial designer: w user interface: i do n't know industrial designer: we 'll leave that to the usability engineering then . marketing: who 's the usability engineering ? user interface: that 's me . marketing: she is . user interface: but i 'm going to look if i 've got some examples industrial designer: user interface: 'cause perhaps you should choose what 's most often used . marketing: oh . user interface: the 'cause they can use that better . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um industrial designer: consistency . user interface: yeah . marketing: oh i have that those s numbers . user interface: i here is our here are uh marketing: or a good watch . user interface: i do n't really know . marketing: b project manager: everybody 's searching in his data . user interface: yeah . marketing: channel selection . per hour one hundred and sixty eight . volume selection four times an hour user interface: yeah but but i mean if it 's usually plus or min above each other or next to each other on a normal remote . industrial designer: yeah . so not how much n not how often it 's used , but marketing: uh user interface: w what 's what 's usual or normal . marketing: yeah , that depends on on on the remote . user interface: yes i 'm looking here . but here 's it 's below , industrial designer: uh . user interface: here also , and now here 's here 's next to each other . industrial designer: user interface: i think it 's it 's a marketing: i think because i have two televisions at home . one is horizontal , one is vertical , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah it does it does n't really matter , marketing: so it depends . industrial designer: but marketing: yeah . depends . industrial designer: uh . user interface: i think the the the volume was usually uh above each other , because you go higher and down . marketing: yeah , lower . user interface: and the the pay the the the program is next to each other , because you would go further and back . industrial designer: user interface: that 's how it 's is usually when i look here marketing: true . user interface: that 's what i see . industrial designer: okay , um . let 's cut to the chase . user interface: marketing: it 's got to change . project manager: yeah well i think we have we do n't have to decide about that now how where we will put the buttons user interface: i do n't know . project manager: just the marketing: yeah is it is user interface . project manager: concepts . user interface: yeah . marketing: component . user interface: this concept is in the actual design , but you should know where you would place a industrial designer: okay , well le yeah . interface , yeah . user interface: and the speech uh shall we implement that ? or uh project manager: yeah well we just heard about the new uh technology , huh ? industrial designer: technologies , uh . marketing: yeah i think it 's it 's easy for that , where are you , but then it says i 'm here . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . but then you should also find a place industrial designer: makes it possible to marketing: yeah . user interface: you could if you do it like this you could put it in a corner or something . you can talk into the corner . industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah , a microphone , yeah . industrial designer: not even necessary , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: because a lotta you can make a very sensitive microphone , so it makes it possible to uh just put it arou uh underneath it or on the on the bottom of the uh remote . project manager: yeah maybe at the bottom where you can can hel hold it with you hand that there 's also a microphone uh user interface: yeah . but yeah , that 's also . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: project manager: over there . industrial designer: right . user interface: so , in the middle or something . industrial designer: but that 's not import i think that 's not im very important project manager: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: because yeah , it does n't matter where the microphone is . user interface: but you should uh decide where you want to put it . industrial designer: ah okay , sure , okay , user interface: right ? industrial designer: well tha marketing: um i think where it is n't seen industrial designer: underneath ? indeed . it should n't be uh very uh visible . marketing: the most . user interface: you could p you could put it in a logo of the company . marketing: inside . project manager: yeah . well industrial designer: yeah sure , why no marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe just in the the spot you just pointed out marketing: i i between the round of the r_ . user interface: yeah . project manager: because i think it should be in a in an important position where people can see it , marketing: yeah . project manager: because it is the the unique uh idea of our remote , huh , the the speech control . user interface: yeah . so where do you want to put it ? marketing: yeah , okay . project manager: well maybe where the one hand industrial designer: yeah but it does n't makes it uh any more fancy because you get to see uh user interface: yeah actually it does because it you can you can find it better if you use it . marketing: yeah . yeah user interface: it 's a way for you to uh marketing: bu but industrial designer: uh . user interface: so it makes more sense just 'cause other remotes do n't have that . industrial designer: yeah , okay . project manager: but are we talking about the button , or about the microphone ? user interface: about a microphone , project manager: yeah because a microphone is very small thing , user interface: there is no button . project manager: but you can make it look like it 's big so as its its really an important function of the remote . user interface: yeah . marketing: i think the left s under corner should be the best . industrial designer: marketing: where is n't i it is n't most in sight . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . well put it there . i do n't mind . marketing: i think . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: that does n't does n't really matter . marketing: no . actually does n't . industrial designer: okay . so ? user interface: alright . any more uh project manager: so well uh industrial designer: interface type . project manager: type , supplements , anything . yeah , well we already s discussed that , huh , the the lcd industrial designer: the lcd yeah , project manager: and user interface: yeah . industrial designer: uh supplements well the supplement is to marketing: i think i thought the , like you said , like scroll next to the remote is n't that handy . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: i think it 's better to just up what you 'd like to do on the screen . if you want to go back you have to back button go back , industrial designer: user interface: yeah . marketing: if you want to choose audio settings you press audio settings and it goes to that s sub-menu . industrial designer: hey , user interface: um yeah . yeah industrial designer: . user interface: the the young people do like uh scroll uh industrial designer: use the scroll . yeah i think so too . marketing: yeah ? you do like it ? industrial designer: so why not , on on side . user interface: or at least yeah i do n't know if it 's really the scroll , but the menu they like most , and i think you can never get through a menu great with a scroll uh industrial designer: fast , yeah . so if you 've got a settings , if you marketing: yeah i think it is is faster . becau i think the scroll 's easier if you have a lot of options , industrial designer: yes . marketing: but if you do n't have a lot of option then user interface: but you have it 's f uh industrial designer: you have a lot of options , user interface: we have five or four or something . industrial designer: because when you use yeah you get w when you use uh the settings menu for example to look up some uh uh some channels on your uh on your television , you should scroll scroll down uh on a menu which probably does not fit on your screen . marketing: y project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: uh-huh . yeah , okay , true . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so then it 's uh very handy to to scroll down , marketing: okay . industrial designer: you make just a rubber just like uh on your mouse or . just put it on the side and it 's very easy to use . marketing: okay , no problem . project manager: and i think i would it would make even more fancy because you have another interesting thing on the side industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: which you can touch user interface: yeah . project manager: and user interface: it 's also different . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . well there 's our five minutes uh warning . um any more uh questions about about the design or the user interface or different components , everyone ? marketing: um . no , colours are clear , project manager: everybody think they can can marketing: shape is clear , material is clear . industrial designer: okay , what 's the standard colour ? project manager: work for that ? marketing: and a standard , project manager: is there a standard colour ? marketing: yeah we do n't industrial designer: i i marketing: no we have different colour . industrial designer: you got you got different colours , marketing: how many colours are we going to user interface: you should you should have a black one industrial designer: but you should have a standard colour . user interface: because uh i think black is standard . marketing: black . yeah , black i think is is the standard . industrial designer: black ? with the with the yellow uh user interface: but if you want to be different , then uh marketing: dark grey , something like this this colour or something . industrial designer: just a regular uh remote colour . marketing: yeah like like yeah . industrial designer: and then have uh different covers uh to use . marketing: or or silver . i think it 's better to have silver nowadays . user interface: silver . industrial designer: silver , yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: i think you see more silver than black . industrial designer: you see a lot of t uh silver televisions . project manager: but still silver and black are well user interface: silver rubber . marketing: yeah the the silver black are our main colours . yeah . project manager: silver is new but also traditional , so uh marketing: i think we have silver , black and between those is like i dunno s five colours between them or something . project manager: yeah w what about a yellow thing , i mean it industrial designer: yeah y i think it 's better to marketing: yeah yeah yeah it 'll be a banana yellow , we have . project manager: could be ugly , but it 's definitely fancy . user interface: but marketing: r red . industrial designer: yeah th yeah . that 's right . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but if you use uh silver , uh rubber s silver rubber is n't fancy . marketing: green , wood , brown . yeah . true . industrial designer: when you use titanium , silver is fancy , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but when you use silver rubber , it is n't fancy . silver has to shine , and rubber does n't shine . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: especially when it 's made of soft rubber like this . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: you understand ? marketing: yeah , i understand . project manager: yeah i would think about colours like uh red , yellow , green , blue , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah o of course . project manager: just marketing: the fruity colours and the autumn colours , like red and brown , dark red and brown . project manager: yeah . user interface: just all kind of colour . industrial designer: fruity . fruity loops . project manager: mm-hmm . maroon . yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay , so user interface: and and do we have to have a normal black one , or uh project manager: who 's pinging ? user interface: is it project manager: you are pingin marketing: no . project manager: okay . i thought we user interface: industrial designer: you ping . project manager: okay , so uh that wraps it up ? everybody knows uh what to do ? user interface: yeah . project manager: well i wrote it down here . i wrote it down here what to do um . user interface: well i do n't know what to do , industrial designer: well not what to do . not what to do . user interface: but . project manager: the next meeting is once again in thirty minutes . um here are the individual actions , industrial designer: okay . project manager: and especially notice that uh the industrial designer and the user interface designer are going to work together on a prototype drawing on a smart board , user interface: ooh . right . marketing: s project manager: and of course to all four of us uh specific instructions will be emailed by our personal coach . user interface: yeah . marketing: tough . we 'll be available . user interface: but do we have to we 'll work together , but do we have to stay here , or do we project manager: well i i 'd say just wait uh for email and uh find out . user interface: right . project manager: i do n't know . user interface: yes . okay . industrial designer: thin i think we should work . project manager: okay well that was what i had to say , uh , user interface: yeah i think . project manager: final thoughts from anyone , or ? user interface: no . project manager: we 're finished . marketing: no . project manager: okay , well thank you very much . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: thank you very much . marketing: finished . user interface: so we have to keep talking english now ? { vocalsound }

marketing thought it was easy with a microphone on the remote control so that it was easy to find . user interface agreed and thought it was better to put the microphone in a corner . industrial designer thought no matter where the microphone was , it would not be visible . so where to place did n't matter . project manager thought the microphone should be in an important position to see because it was a special selling point of remote control .

what discussion did the group make about scroll on the remote control ? </s> project manager: okay , welcome everyone to our next meeting . i 'm busy writing and busy leading the meeting , but um i 've prepared a little presentation once again um or at least an agenda i think uh the biggest part of the presentation will be uh on your side . um we are here at the conceptual design meeting , which is hereby opened . um once again i will try to uh write some minutes which i just from the previous meeting uh placed inside our project folder , which was quite some typing . um today we once again have uh three presentations , if i 'm right , and after that we will take a decision on the remote control concepts . and just as the last time we have forty minutes to accomplish that . okay , well industrial designer: project manager: i 'd say let 's start with the first presentation . marketing: 'kay . project manager: um in the same order as last time ? industrial designer: w sure . user interface: mm . alright . project manager: okay . well , take it away . user interface: industrial designer: okay uh welcome you all . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: components design , um uh first of all uh i would like to uh uh accommodate some of those uh things i uh uh elaborate some of the things i did . i i elaborated on the concept . what should be um uh said about uh the components , uh its properties and what kind of materials should we use to uh to make uh one of those r remote controls . uh well first of all i 've uh d subtracted some of the components that is that are used uh are w w um you know from what uh the remote control 's formed . uh first of all , the case , the case , the surrounding of the of the the remote control . i would like to uh give you an idea of uh how i thought about . marketing: do n't destroy my giraffe . industrial designer: giraffe 's gone now . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: okay um the case was is made from rubber , i suppose . there 's one of the because when you use a remote control a lot of people uh will uh will uh drop their remote control marketing: drop it . user interface: hmm . industrial designer: and they break uh becau the uh titanium was also an option . but uh it 's a very expensive material . uh rubber is , i think , uh the best suitable uh material uh to use uh for our uh for our remote control . um it 's poss it 's also possible to uh create fancy colours with rubber . uh rubber l makes it easy to uh to to it lets lets itself colour . uh titanium uh you have to paint it and with that uh it 's possible to scratch it or uh yeah make it ugly . uh rubber uh the total uh piece of rubber that 's sor uh that 's that 's used uh to make the case is uh the same colour , so if you scratch it it 's still the same colour , perhaps uh it 's a little bit damaged . but it 's a very strong material . um i h i had an idea single covered uh curved , sorry , single curved . user interface: industrial designer: uh so it 's t two dimensional . i think it 's uh it 's best to draw oh user interface: it 's a colour . industrial designer: green . marketing: bright colour . fancy colour . forward . industrial designer: uh new . blank . okay . marketing: you have to go t industrial designer: let 's make it uh black . okay . i thought of an idea like this . oh that . um delete . blank . okay . so it also looks nice when it 's on your table . user interface: industrial designer: so you get uh it does n't lay flat down on the table , but it 's c it 's stands . marketing: oh it 's a side view . industrial designer: side view yes it 's side view so uh i i 'm not technically good at th three d_ modelling , user interface: industrial designer: but . marketing: industrial designer: um uh it 's just an idea i had so it 's uh it 's very uh so its also looks nice when it 's on the table . um the graphical user interface and the buttons , uh we also thought about that already . uh i thought about uh the lcd touch screen , which is uh is easy to clean too . one of the great uh advantages of the lcd screen you just use some or uh another uh cleaning uh uh cl some cleaning stuff . user interface: industrial designer: and um it should be made of strong plastic and it should be bright . well i already uh s uh explained some properties of that material and i think uh well we also we almost concluded about that uh this should uh be uh our uh button component . marketing: true . industrial designer: so uh uh that 's all about uh the buttons . uh the batteries , uh we also thought about that already , uh will be chargeable with uh uh an option for a mount station so you can uh put the uh the remote control in a mount station so its charges itself up instead of uh plugging it in or something like that . questions , ? user interface: no . marketing: no no no no no . just looking . industrial designer: and they should be long lasting , not uh not be empty uh in about uh two minutes or uh thirty minutes or forty minutes of use . and next step is the chip uh th the component that 's uh makes or transmits the signal to the television . uh there was an option to use s a rather simple chip but i think uh because uh of our uh highly uh requiring uh requirements , there should be an advanced chip in it user interface: industrial designer: with uh also the ability to uh facilitate speaker speech recognition uh which unfortunately is still in a test phase , so uh there should be some more uh investigation on that side . uh my personal preferences uh i also overheard in the last meeting that there shou we should use uh our own business colours . that was correct , was n't it ? project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay . i think they are rather boring for um for use with rubber . user interface: project manager: well , business colours i thought it was the the slogan and uh the corporate image , so yeah , it needs colour , industrial designer: okay they should be m sh they should be in mind , project manager: but i do n't think you have to make the entire thing in the corporate colour . industrial designer: was n't it ? okay so it d it does n't says uh to uh have the slogan ? project manager: it must be recognisable . industrial designer: okay okay . well that 's possible of course . user interface: you can put the r_ and r_ . industrial designer: we could make a little r_ and r_ on the top of the machine . uh so they are pretty boring , i suggest , because just the availability with rubber to make fantastic colours uh and also in a lot of possible colours , so it 's possible to make very uh fancy uh remote controls which peopl uh who people in which people will find they 're uh interesting . and uh will buy uh them faster when they look at the same old grey or black uh colours . uh s as i said uh before rubber is uh is impossible to damage severely imp instead of uh of course you can break it when you you when you break it in s for example with a pair of scissors or something like that , but i if you drop it it 's not uh broken uh right away s instead of using uh plastic , hard plastic or uh titanium . and i personally liked uh the single curved uh remote control , because it yeah it makes sense . user interface: industrial designer: okay . well that 's all about my uh my findings . user interface: alright . project manager: okay , thank you . user interface: i will go next . marketing: mm mm mm . next . user interface: industrial designer: user interface: alright so industrial designer: user interface: i thought a little bit about the interface . uh how it should look . and uh uh we uh determined that will not be no buttons , but only an lcd screen , so i had to uh look on that . and the design is therefore based on what we just uh uh thought of . uh first there are some new findings and new technology for speech recognition . and this is that uh um uh uh you you ask you give a question through through the device and it answers you . and they already uh put this in an in a coffee maker . and so that it you say uh good morning , uh coffee maker , and it says t says to you back good morning joe or what 's your name . industrial designer: mm . user interface: this uh and there 's an easy way to uh program that uh you say record into the device into the speaker and then you say the question and three seconds later you say the answer and then when you say the question it gives you the answer . um perhaps it 's useful , industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm . user interface: perhaps for because people um lose the remote , industrial designer: mm . user interface: they can yell uh remote where are you and calls or something . industrial designer: marketing: it 's true . user interface: and perhaps we could uh implement that . industrial designer: user interface: and then i have to go out of the presentation because i tried to make some kind of a a idea of how it should look like industrial designer: oh my god . user interface: but i ca n't draw , so uh do n't make too much of it . i tried to uh the lcd screen i tried to sort of to draw . i thought uh at least uh the icon for the volume . i do n't know if there is an icon for the program , but industrial designer: not just a p_ . user interface: yeah . marketing: p_ yeah , just a p_ . user interface: so uh industrial designer: .. . user interface: and then the buttons above and uh below marketing: user interface: the and the and the mute button also recognisable as an icon . um . marketing: where 's where 's the button for two ? user interface: i forgot that one . i thought i forgot something , industrial designer: marketing: okay . user interface: but uh . industrial designer: user interface: and uh and uh the numbers , that should be a bit larger i think it 's not really on scale and and so forth . industrial designer: ah . marketing: does n't matter . user interface: um an options button . and i thought the the button for teletext apar uh apart because it 's not really options , i think . it 's uh options is the settings of the remote and of the tv and that kind of uh thing . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: no . user interface: so could call it settings or something . industrial designer: yep . user interface: but this is a bit uh how i thought it . and uh the lcd uh somewhere on the remote . perhaps we could be more curvy the remote perhaps should , so that it 's better in your hand or something uh . industrial designer: oh okay , user interface: but uh and and uh a microph microphone for the speech uh recognition if we want to implement that . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: uh and then uh if you press the op options button , now we have an example of and then you should get the other options with what what you could do and that you could do with something like this this . industrial designer: oh yeah , . user interface: and uh it 's also uh i thought think we discussed uh earlier that uh older people do n't really want to use uh these extra settings . and older people a also do n't really want to use this uh th this kind of option menus . so they want to u use one button and then something happens , and not choose with uh this kind of uh and you could put in a an a really s little scrolling device on the side of your uh remote , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so you could scroll scroll uh across these uh things . industrial designer: mm . okay . user interface: that 's an option . and that was my uh finding dinge . project manager: thanks . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: now our third industrial designer: go danny , go danny . project manager: team member with his presentation . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: okay , i 'm going to tell you something about a trend watching . the trends from the past years , what the people like , what the youngsters like , what the elderly people liked about shapes , colours , material and stuff . 'kay . the method i used was like i told i watched the trends from the past years about colours , shapes , material they wanted uh from elderly and young people . so we can keep that in mind for designing f uh the device itself . findings i made . the most important thing people liked last year was that the remote control should be look look fancy . the second important thing that w should be if inv in innov innovative , okay , like the lcd screen that 's quite innovative so that should be great meeting for this . and the third thing is it should be easy to use . i think with only one menu , four button , channel , volume , it should also be enough for easy to use . the personal preferences for the young people , they liked fruity colours like uh banana yellow , uh strawberry red and stuff . industrial designer: fruity ? user interface: grass green . industrial designer: fruity . marketing: yeah . like that . the round shapes , and soft material m materials like the rubber . industrial designer: mm . okay . marketing: it should be soft uh i it should feeling spongy or s sponge bob like things . user interface: let 's build it into a sponge . industrial designer: marketing: th elderly people like au colours which y are being seen in autumn like um woods um dark brown , red , deep reds and stuff . they liked square shapes with round edges . and hard materials like wood , um titanium . they those kind of materials they liked . this is a bit like the young peoples like the fruity colours , innovative , all the colours you see , the blue , the red , the white , the yellow , that stuff . and then i th i i personally thought the front side of the shape should be something for the youngsters like like project manager: oh y marketing: this or something . it 's it 's a bit like a banana . and the colour should be yellow , or something . industrial designer: marketing: and for the elderly people just plain old . because we decided to have two kind of remotes , two designs , or was it two colours ? user interface: it was one remote , i think , marketing: different colours , yeah . user interface: different colours . marketing: we should decide whether it 's going to be with round shapes . i think like my colleague , you said , is that 's e better , or for the elderly people something like like the ipod or something , with round squares . simple but user interface: marketing: easy to use . industrial designer: mm . marketing: so that 's it . project manager: so for the older people , a more traditional uh form . industrial designer: okay . marketing: that is my yeah , like the older o older colours i can maybe user interface: you could you could uh change the colours , that was also the idea . i do n't know which shape you should should take , marketing: yeah . user interface: but . marketing: colours th the elderly people project manager: yeah , i guess changing colours will be easier than changing uh user interface: yeah . industrial designer: changing just the shape of the uh remote control ? project manager: the shape of it . user interface: perhaps you could find something in the middle . round but square . industrial designer: yeah , s project manager: industrial designer: round corners , but s but square , yeah . project manager: but maybe then both groups wo n't buy it . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: user interface: uh i i if you do it uh uh square , with round corners but a little uh in the middle of it uh i do you know what i mean ? industrial designer: yeah i know what you mean , kind of like a . user interface: wait , like like this uh a bit . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so it 's a bit square , but it 's also a bit uh round . industrial designer: kinda like a beer glass . yeah . user interface: so but then industrial designer: i know what you mean . user interface: same sides . but that 's uh industrial designer: it 's also easy to to have to to put in your hand . user interface: yeah but that 's also how other remotes are shaped , so that 's uh but perhaps that 's a good thing , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so that 's easy to use . people know the industrial designer: will recognise that 's as a remote control . user interface: yeah . marketing: uh look something like that . autumn colours like red , brown . industrial designer: uh when i saw your d oh . marketing: they liked the wood a lot . industrial designer: huh . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: so maybe we could give it like wooden loo look look or something in that colour . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , kinda like old cars , uh marketing: and a bit bit old school style renaissance , medieval kind of things . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: swords . industrial designer: let 's put it all together . marketing: those kind of yeah , those kind of things . so you see the big difference between the young people ? fresh , exciting . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: and the old people , old and boring . user interface: but that 's easily to do with the colour , i think . project manager: marketing: so sorry ? user interface: that 's easy to do with the colours , i think . marketing: yeah i think it 's it 's easier to do in colour than in shape . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah we think so too . industrial designer: uh . marketing: because otherwise we have to get different shapes , and colour way easier than yeah the shapes . in material yeah rubber , rubber is , like i said , young people like more soft materials and spongy ones industrial designer: marketing: and the old people like plain wood . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so we have to decide if we 're going to use real hard rubber , or soft rubber . or something something between that . user interface: yeah think uh also in between . industrial designer: soft rubber . marketing: yeah soft rubber industrial designer: marketing: which you can you can feel in it . industrial designer: yeah i know what you um . user interface: i do n't think you should be able to mould it , marketing: or user interface: but industrial designer: it should should n't be . marketing: no . or or wh what 's something harder . no no no but but you have to like like like a a eraser or something . that 's the bit you can press it in , user interface: yeah . marketing: or something harder . industrial designer: uh . user interface: bit like this kind of rubber . this uh marketing: yeah , something like this , yeah . user interface: but it 's quite hard , this . marketing: yeah it 's quite hard but you can press it in . user interface: yeah . marketing: it 's feels kind s spongy . user interface: industrial designer: spongy . project manager: hmm . marketing: something . user interface: i do n't think it 's rubber . marketing: no . n n n project manager: so we need a spongy feeling . user interface: uh did you have something about uh marketing: are you going to invite sponge bob , maybe he can industrial designer: yeah . project manager: user interface: so we should first decide about shape , i think . industrial designer: ding ding . user interface: which uh marketing: yeah i think that 's the better thing to do . user interface: then you can fit the lcd screen in it , marketing: user interface: and can decide uh . industrial designer: um i also s uh ca n't help but notice that you uh used an you had a remote control user interface: industrial designer: and the lcd screen was uh rather small . um . marketing: yeah user interface: yeah marketing: w i think that lcd screen should be like user interface: it it 's supposed to be bit s bit s bit industrial designer: .. . this was your size , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but i think it should be larger . marketing: yeah three quarter of the of the industrial designer: yeah , three quarters . so uh so you do n't have to put your oh . marketing: yeah the buttons wo n't get that small when the lcd screen is industrial designer: uh new , blank . so uh when you get this uh user interface: marketing: user interface: ooh industrial designer: uh kinda like this . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: or should it be larger ? marketing: larger i think . industrial designer: larger ? because you want to put your hands user interface: but if you pu marketing: yeah user interface: now you can put your hand there and then you wo n't touch the screen . industrial designer: you want marketing: becau because you have user interface: perhaps that 's best . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah okay , true , true , true true . industrial designer: your thumb here . user interface: but not on the screen because yeah industrial designer: yeah . user interface: that 's uh that 's an idea . marketing: yeah . user interface: looks a bit like a game boy now . industrial designer: because when you put your f yeah but if yo if you make the the lcd screen as large as the remote control itself , uh you 'll you 'll always get some user interface: you always touch it , industrial designer: you user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah yeah yeah yeah . industrial designer: going to be very greasy and stuff . marketing: but it wo n't get that small because you have how much ? nine ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen fifteen buttons on the screen . user interface: yeah . marketing: one to zero , the two digit , industrial designer: yeah you do n't want it too small . how yeah how large marketing: you have to you have to because some fat people with d thick fingers will press three buttons at same time . industrial designer: yeah they have thick fingers . but if you wan na make it in international , japanese uh people got uh rather small hands marketing: yeah true , industrial designer: and we got these large marketing: but yeah , we have we have the zoom option , right ? industrial designer: zoom opt ah yeah of course , yeah . you can make it larger to to uh to uh with accompanying uh greater fields to push the button . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . and we wo n't include a a pen , or something to point , marketing: yeah . project manager: hey , we we want to do it with our fingers , marketing: no . project manager: right ? industrial designer: your fingers , yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: y you could include a pen industrial designer: you do n't want uh marketing: yeah . industrial designer: because if you lose the pen uh if you lose the pen uh you ca n't use marketing: use a pen you you c you can lose the pen . project manager: yeah but i think people want to use a remote with with their fingers because th they 're used to that marketing: yeah the fingers , yeah . user interface: yeah o yeah , if they think it 's handy to use a pen . project manager: and industrial designer: user interface: yeah i think this uh this is a good size for the screen . i do n't know how how large the actual remote should be but a little bit like this , or something . project manager: and maybe we have to add a tissue to remove the grease from all the fingers , huh . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah you can do whatever uh any uh cloth . marketing: yeah but that that can be with plain soft tissue . yeah , project manager: okay well marketing: you can buy those at project manager: maybe , if i can interrupt you , maybe i should uh should show some points on which we uh should take a decision . industrial designer: sure . project manager: so we can discuss these points . those points um energy question mark . how how should we uh supply the thing with energy and how are we going to do it with separate docking station and then put in it . uh chip on print and case . those are points my uh coach advised me to discuss here , but i hope you have ideas about them . marketing: user interface: i think energy were batteries and then uh and uh industrial designer: the docking station . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . so that 's the the the first point . marketing: maybe it 's better to to include rechargeable batteries project manager: we already decided that on the previous meeting . industrial designer: w user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: which you can recharge through the docking station . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . just like with the telephone . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so if the badg the batteries are dead industrial designer: i kinda like your marketing: then you can re you can uh change them . industrial designer: yeah you got some uh some of those uh uh wireless uh mice ? mouse . computer mouse . marketing: yeah yeah yeah like those . industrial designer: kinda like those kind of batteries . user interface: but it should be th i think normal batteries , marketing: yep . user interface: not not like two or two uh marketing: yeah , normal plain you no normal plain batteries you can buy at the supermarket or retail shop . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: simple rechargeable uh batteries . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . um what was with the chip on print ? industrial designer: the chip on print ? um uh you got ta f yeah . i think so . chip on print with a with a simple uh a sim not a simple but a marketing: print plate . industrial designer: we also discussed that . did n't we ? project manager: yeah but how did this how does that with a lcd screen ? you still have a print plate . industrial designer: uh marketing: yeah yeah yeah . you always have a print plate . industrial designer: beg your pardon ? marketing: you always have a print plate , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah sure , of course , yeah . marketing: right ? always , so i dunno what w what we have to decide about that . project manager: yeah well it 's a good question . user interface: marketing: project manager: it just was in there industrial designer: well uh project manager: and i did n't have any information about it , industrial designer: chip on print , i think what they mean uh with the regular rubber buttons that you got , uh it 's always clear for the remote control when you press uh a certain button . project manager: but mm-hmm . industrial designer: but when you got a lcd screen , with no uh with not the buttons are not always on the same place , marketing: yeah , okay . but industrial designer: for example if you enlarge a button , or if you got several options uh appearing on your screen , uh the co-ordinations are n't always the same . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: when you got a regular button , th the button of stand-by is always on the same place and you got on the and on the marketing: yeah okay , but the p print plate of l_ lcd screen is more advanced than a normal print plate , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so that that 's not of any discussion , i think . project manager: well you need some kind of c_p_u_ , i guess . industrial designer: i suppose so . marketing: mm , i do n't i dunno i do n't think that 's industrial designer: it is a simple c_p_u_ but it does n't marketing: yeah yeah okay but i d i i do n't know if nor o s it 's quite a simple lcd . industrial designer: yeah because it has to uh b marketing: yeah , it 's quite a simple lcd screen . i think they do n't need that big of c_p_u_ . industrial designer: yeah but it the the remote control has to know whether you 're in a settings menu or just uh you just want to turn up the volume . marketing: yeah , okay , true true . true . industrial designer: so it has to have some kind of a calculation unit or c_p_u_ user interface: industrial designer: to know uh in which state you are and uh which button you are pressing in at the right moment . project manager: mm-hmm . because we 're projecting projecting the buttons on the lcd screen . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: industrial designer: and a touch screen makes it uh possible to uh to get the co-ordination of your finger on the screen . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and the case , yeah we already discussed the case , user interface: it 's rubber . industrial designer: we wanted to make it from rubber user interface: yeah but but a hard rubber like this ? industrial designer: and uh user interface: or softer rubber or industrial designer: uh hard rubber i think . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: that 's the easy to ha uh to to uh marketing: yeah . user interface: it bounces back from the floor where you throw it . industrial designer: yeah . yeah sure , look . marketing: we have different colours . user interface: yeah yeah this in different colours ? industrial designer: d marketing: so the shapes is something between the square shapes with round colo corners and a round shapes ? no i do n't think , i think it 's more round than square . user interface: yeah it 's a bit . but i think it should be a bit longer , perhaps . marketing: so it meets i think it meets more the young people than the older people . project manager: yeah . but that 's what we want , . user interface: yeah . i think so too . marketing: yeah , that 's our target . yeah . industrial designer: it 's our main target . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: lower than forty years , i think industrial designer: well and how about my idea uh of making it um with one single curve ? marketing: it was . industrial designer: so i marketing: oh yeah that that i think i thought that was a quite good user interface: yeah . industrial designer: because it 's a gadget and you want to show it off , of course . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah yeah you have a fancy design , then , right away . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: uh . project manager: so industrial designer: because it marketing: you can put it on your table with the lcd screen , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: you do n't have to put it get it in your hand , you can put it next to you industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and then dive it in user interface: yeah , that 's a good idea . marketing: and . yeah . industrial designer: it 's a lot easier . user interface: yeah , alright . industrial designer: so , so marketing: so project manager: okay so industrial designer: you got uh user interface: and then industrial designer: did you write that down ? uh got a single curved uh rubber f uh fancy coloured remote control . user interface: marketing: you ca n't you you ca n't oh , you c you can draw it on your paper and then load it on the industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah , you can uh project manager: yeah but i wrote it down . user interface: it 's pretty easy but and marketing: and load it on the the user the server . project manager: what about the user interface , there are also some some questions uh about the concepts i think you have some ideas on that . user interface: yeah , project manager: you you showed your drawing . user interface: i had what i just uh i should again . i miss a few buttons , but . well . at least uh what we should also have on , i just remembered , um a menu to go back through the first uh if if you touch options , you ca n't go back to this uh right away now . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah , you have to go back . yeah uh uh . user interface: this marketing: is n't it better to have the sound and the general buttons horizontal ? user interface: i do n't know . marketing: with the minus and the plus . user interface: i think it 's marketing: i think it 's easier than user interface: i do n't know . i i thought it was uh easier to handle this way , marketing: yeah . user interface: but i do n't know what they think . industrial designer: sorry ? marketing: project manager: mm . user interface: would you like the the buttons horizontal or v vertical ? marketing: for sound and channel . user interface: th industrial designer: depends on the screen . if you make the screen vertical it does n't matter . if you make it uh in a rectangle user interface: right well if we make it like this , i think if you marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i so it 's it 's it 's it 's user interface: put it like this industrial designer: square . marketing: i think it 's it 's easier to have it something like oh a button uh minus here , plus over here . a minus here , plus over here . industrial designer: oh , okay . marketing: and on here . user interface: yeah . marketing: the other buttons and on here the top . user interface: yeah . marketing: the options and then you have something like uh the p_ over here , user interface: but i think i wou industrial designer: marketing: and the sound . user interface: i think that 's a matter of what you 're used to . marketing: something uh user interface: i think i would put a plus and a min uh here . and then the p_ in the mid in the middle and the sound uh in the middle . industrial designer: uh . marketing: something like user interface: marketing: sh project manager: industrial designer: take your time . user interface: marketing: plus minus plus uh user interface: almost . industrial designer: user interface: yeah marketing: minus . user interface: but i think when you are holding it , you could press the minus and the plus and with the other finger the minus and the plus . marketing: yeah i think you 're going to s you 're going to use it with one thumb . user interface: yeah but i think yeah i do n't know . perhaps i have some examples . industrial designer: w user interface: i do n't know industrial designer: we 'll leave that to the usability engineering then . marketing: who 's the usability engineering ? user interface: that 's me . marketing: she is . user interface: but i 'm going to look if i 've got some examples industrial designer: user interface: 'cause perhaps you should choose what 's most often used . marketing: oh . user interface: the 'cause they can use that better . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um industrial designer: consistency . user interface: yeah . marketing: oh i have that those s numbers . user interface: i here is our here are uh marketing: or a good watch . user interface: i do n't really know . marketing: b project manager: everybody 's searching in his data . user interface: yeah . marketing: channel selection . per hour one hundred and sixty eight . volume selection four times an hour user interface: yeah but but i mean if it 's usually plus or min above each other or next to each other on a normal remote . industrial designer: yeah . so not how much n not how often it 's used , but marketing: uh user interface: w what 's what 's usual or normal . marketing: yeah , that depends on on on the remote . user interface: yes i 'm looking here . but here 's it 's below , industrial designer: uh . user interface: here also , and now here 's here 's next to each other . industrial designer: user interface: i think it 's it 's a marketing: i think because i have two televisions at home . one is horizontal , one is vertical , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah it does it does n't really matter , marketing: so it depends . industrial designer: but marketing: yeah . depends . industrial designer: uh . user interface: i think the the the volume was usually uh above each other , because you go higher and down . marketing: yeah , lower . user interface: and the the pay the the the program is next to each other , because you would go further and back . industrial designer: user interface: that 's how it 's is usually when i look here marketing: true . user interface: that 's what i see . industrial designer: okay , um . let 's cut to the chase . user interface: marketing: it 's got to change . project manager: yeah well i think we have we do n't have to decide about that now how where we will put the buttons user interface: i do n't know . project manager: just the marketing: yeah is it is user interface . project manager: concepts . user interface: yeah . marketing: component . user interface: this concept is in the actual design , but you should know where you would place a industrial designer: okay , well le yeah . interface , yeah . user interface: and the speech uh shall we implement that ? or uh project manager: yeah well we just heard about the new uh technology , huh ? industrial designer: technologies , uh . marketing: yeah i think it 's it 's easy for that , where are you , but then it says i 'm here . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . but then you should also find a place industrial designer: makes it possible to marketing: yeah . user interface: you could if you do it like this you could put it in a corner or something . you can talk into the corner . industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah , a microphone , yeah . industrial designer: not even necessary , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: because a lotta you can make a very sensitive microphone , so it makes it possible to uh just put it arou uh underneath it or on the on the bottom of the uh remote . project manager: yeah maybe at the bottom where you can can hel hold it with you hand that there 's also a microphone uh user interface: yeah . but yeah , that 's also . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: project manager: over there . industrial designer: right . user interface: so , in the middle or something . industrial designer: but that 's not import i think that 's not im very important project manager: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: because yeah , it does n't matter where the microphone is . user interface: but you should uh decide where you want to put it . industrial designer: ah okay , sure , okay , user interface: right ? industrial designer: well tha marketing: um i think where it is n't seen industrial designer: underneath ? indeed . it should n't be uh very uh visible . marketing: the most . user interface: you could p you could put it in a logo of the company . marketing: inside . project manager: yeah . well industrial designer: yeah sure , why no marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe just in the the spot you just pointed out marketing: i i between the round of the r_ . user interface: yeah . project manager: because i think it should be in a in an important position where people can see it , marketing: yeah . project manager: because it is the the unique uh idea of our remote , huh , the the speech control . user interface: yeah . so where do you want to put it ? marketing: yeah , okay . project manager: well maybe where the one hand industrial designer: yeah but it does n't makes it uh any more fancy because you get to see uh user interface: yeah actually it does because it you can you can find it better if you use it . marketing: yeah . yeah user interface: it 's a way for you to uh marketing: bu but industrial designer: uh . user interface: so it makes more sense just 'cause other remotes do n't have that . industrial designer: yeah , okay . project manager: but are we talking about the button , or about the microphone ? user interface: about a microphone , project manager: yeah because a microphone is very small thing , user interface: there is no button . project manager: but you can make it look like it 's big so as its its really an important function of the remote . user interface: yeah . marketing: i think the left s under corner should be the best . industrial designer: marketing: where is n't i it is n't most in sight . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . well put it there . i do n't mind . marketing: i think . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: that does n't does n't really matter . marketing: no . actually does n't . industrial designer: okay . so ? user interface: alright . any more uh project manager: so well uh industrial designer: interface type . project manager: type , supplements , anything . yeah , well we already s discussed that , huh , the the lcd industrial designer: the lcd yeah , project manager: and user interface: yeah . industrial designer: uh supplements well the supplement is to marketing: i think i thought the , like you said , like scroll next to the remote is n't that handy . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: i think it 's better to just up what you 'd like to do on the screen . if you want to go back you have to back button go back , industrial designer: user interface: yeah . marketing: if you want to choose audio settings you press audio settings and it goes to that s sub-menu . industrial designer: hey , user interface: um yeah . yeah industrial designer: . user interface: the the young people do like uh scroll uh industrial designer: use the scroll . yeah i think so too . marketing: yeah ? you do like it ? industrial designer: so why not , on on side . user interface: or at least yeah i do n't know if it 's really the scroll , but the menu they like most , and i think you can never get through a menu great with a scroll uh industrial designer: fast , yeah . so if you 've got a settings , if you marketing: yeah i think it is is faster . becau i think the scroll 's easier if you have a lot of options , industrial designer: yes . marketing: but if you do n't have a lot of option then user interface: but you have it 's f uh industrial designer: you have a lot of options , user interface: we have five or four or something . industrial designer: because when you use yeah you get w when you use uh the settings menu for example to look up some uh uh some channels on your uh on your television , you should scroll scroll down uh on a menu which probably does not fit on your screen . marketing: y project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: uh-huh . yeah , okay , true . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so then it 's uh very handy to to scroll down , marketing: okay . industrial designer: you make just a rubber just like uh on your mouse or . just put it on the side and it 's very easy to use . marketing: okay , no problem . project manager: and i think i would it would make even more fancy because you have another interesting thing on the side industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: which you can touch user interface: yeah . project manager: and user interface: it 's also different . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . well there 's our five minutes uh warning . um any more uh questions about about the design or the user interface or different components , everyone ? marketing: um . no , colours are clear , project manager: everybody think they can can marketing: shape is clear , material is clear . industrial designer: okay , what 's the standard colour ? project manager: work for that ? marketing: and a standard , project manager: is there a standard colour ? marketing: yeah we do n't industrial designer: i i marketing: no we have different colour . industrial designer: you got you got different colours , marketing: how many colours are we going to user interface: you should you should have a black one industrial designer: but you should have a standard colour . user interface: because uh i think black is standard . marketing: black . yeah , black i think is is the standard . industrial designer: black ? with the with the yellow uh user interface: but if you want to be different , then uh marketing: dark grey , something like this this colour or something . industrial designer: just a regular uh remote colour . marketing: yeah like like yeah . industrial designer: and then have uh different covers uh to use . marketing: or or silver . i think it 's better to have silver nowadays . user interface: silver . industrial designer: silver , yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: i think you see more silver than black . industrial designer: you see a lot of t uh silver televisions . project manager: but still silver and black are well user interface: silver rubber . marketing: yeah the the silver black are our main colours . yeah . project manager: silver is new but also traditional , so uh marketing: i think we have silver , black and between those is like i dunno s five colours between them or something . project manager: yeah w what about a yellow thing , i mean it industrial designer: yeah y i think it 's better to marketing: yeah yeah yeah it 'll be a banana yellow , we have . project manager: could be ugly , but it 's definitely fancy . user interface: but marketing: r red . industrial designer: yeah th yeah . that 's right . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but if you use uh silver , uh rubber s silver rubber is n't fancy . marketing: green , wood , brown . yeah . true . industrial designer: when you use titanium , silver is fancy , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but when you use silver rubber , it is n't fancy . silver has to shine , and rubber does n't shine . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: especially when it 's made of soft rubber like this . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: you understand ? marketing: yeah , i understand . project manager: yeah i would think about colours like uh red , yellow , green , blue , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah o of course . project manager: just marketing: the fruity colours and the autumn colours , like red and brown , dark red and brown . project manager: yeah . user interface: just all kind of colour . industrial designer: fruity . fruity loops . project manager: mm-hmm . maroon . yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay , so user interface: and and do we have to have a normal black one , or uh project manager: who 's pinging ? user interface: is it project manager: you are pingin marketing: no . project manager: okay . i thought we user interface: industrial designer: you ping . project manager: okay , so uh that wraps it up ? everybody knows uh what to do ? user interface: yeah . project manager: well i wrote it down here . i wrote it down here what to do um . user interface: well i do n't know what to do , industrial designer: well not what to do . not what to do . user interface: but . project manager: the next meeting is once again in thirty minutes . um here are the individual actions , industrial designer: okay . project manager: and especially notice that uh the industrial designer and the user interface designer are going to work together on a prototype drawing on a smart board , user interface: ooh . right . marketing: s project manager: and of course to all four of us uh specific instructions will be emailed by our personal coach . user interface: yeah . marketing: tough . we 'll be available . user interface: but do we have to we 'll work together , but do we have to stay here , or do we project manager: well i i 'd say just wait uh for email and uh find out . user interface: right . project manager: i do n't know . user interface: yes . okay . industrial designer: thin i think we should work . project manager: okay well that was what i had to say , uh , user interface: yeah i think . project manager: final thoughts from anyone , or ? user interface: no . project manager: we 're finished . marketing: no . project manager: okay , well thank you very much . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: thank you very much . marketing: finished . user interface: so we have to keep talking english now ? { vocalsound }

at first marketing thought scroll was not as handy as buttons but industrial designer placed the scroll on the side and made it very handy to scroll down . in addition , industrial designer thought scroll could control the menu even if the remote control did not fit the screen . user interface said young people were interested in scrolling . project manager thought scroll would make remote control fancier as it was interesting .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: right , so start of the first meeting . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh . right , so agenda of the first meeting . where we uh we have twenty five minutes for this meeting . industrial designer: okay . project manager: we uh are to get acquainted . so does everyone want to say who they are ? that seem sensible ? marketing: yeah . i 'm robin . i 'm the marketing manager . user interface: i 'm louisa . i 'm the user interface designer . industrial designer: i 'm nick . i am the industrial designer . project manager: and i 'm alastair and i 'm the project leader . alright okay , so tool training . um . project plan . so does anyone have any uh thoughts as to the tool training that uh is required ? industrial designer: tool training user interface: i 'm not exactly sure what you mean by tool training . project manager: neither am i . user interface: marketing: project manager: oh i see , so we should n't really be oh right okay , so . so we have the project team , which is to um basically to come up with a new r remote control device . industrial designer: project manager: uh we have uh the starting base was the original which has been in existence now for a period of time . and uh our idea is to uh to make the new remote control device uh more user friendly than the previous one , and to to be trendier , to be with it , and therefore to uh to get a bigger market share and bigger audience . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so um method of doing this is uh split up as you can see into uh the functional design , the conceptional design , and the detailed design . so um in each of these uh phases we 'll uh basically be handing over to yourselves , the designers of this uh this device . industrial designer: yes . project manager: and uh having uh meetings so that we can uh during the course of the day um come up with a better better inst implement than we had before . and therefore um have a successful uh conclusion to the day . um and you 'll be doing uh various designs uh throughout the day to meet this end . marketing: mm-hmm , okay . project manager: so we 've got tool training . try out whiteboard . uh . so we will um . marketing: user interface: project manager: right so everyone 's to uh supposedly uh draw their favourite animal over on the white board over there . i guess this is uh make sure the whiteboard works . so uh i do n't know who wishes to go first . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: do you wish to go f have a first bash at uh whatever . user interface: i do n't mind . marketing: i dunno . user interface: um . project manager: ah uh . user interface: let 's see . marketing: user interface: good job i got pockets today . project manager: but now you you uh you 'll move out from the microphone and the camera . marketing: your microphone 's just project manager: i take it that user interface: are we supposed to do this right now , do you think , or ? project manager: i would i would guess so . or marketing: yeah . i do n't know . industrial designer: you 've lost uh your microphone there . project manager: technical problems . user interface: oh . right here we go . project manager: i mean you designers are meant to come up with these sort of things . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: project manager: user interface: okay . i think that i would have to say that my favourite animal is the cat . little smiley cat there . um and this would be because they 're very independent , uh they 're very intelligent , compared to dogs maybe . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: um and they can be very very affectionate . some people do n't think so but i know very affectionate cats . um . um and they can look after themselves . project manager: user interface: marketing: project manager: next . industrial designer: okay , yeah . i 'll i 'll user interface: shall i rub that out , actually ? project manager: i do n't see as there 's any need to . there 's plenty of space . industrial designer: project manager: i mean whatever . user interface: marketing: we can have have a whole menagerie . project manager: exactly . industrial designer: shall i see if i can get across without just tangling everything . okay . project manager: we 've had more time to prepare over this side , industrial designer: there 's one . project manager: so we 've all stuck our bits and pieces in our pockets . industrial designer: did n't think of that . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: 'kay uh project manager: the three pens are underneath . industrial designer: pens are over here . i 'll try the red pen . okay . um . i 'm gon na go for the bear which i 'm be able to draw very well , project manager: you get marks for artistic impression . industrial designer: but i 'll have a bash at it . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: uh . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: ooh ooh i lost it there . i think i 've just knocked the microphone . um . marketing: user interface: project manager: so you 're just doing the face . industrial designer: we 'll g then we 'll go for a a s small small bear . user interface: project manager: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: um and i like my animal that looks nothing like a bear because um i dunno maybe because there 's so many cartoon characters made up after the bear like the jungle book characters and stuff like that . project manager: industrial designer: great . marketing: right . hello . um i 'm gon na go for the dog , and i 'm gon na draw one badly as well . uh . looks like it 's going to be a dachshund or something . user interface: that 's quite good . industrial designer: marketing: right . there 's my dog . um i like dogs because they 're very loyal . and they 're always happy , so whenever whenever you 're feeling sort of a bit a bit down or tired , they 're always coming up and they 're always um quite excited . so um you can always have a lot of fun with a dog . and they 're also good for exercise as well . you can sorta get out and they they sorta never get tired . and and when they 're tired they 're quite cute as well , so . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: okay , that 's why i like dogs . project manager: right , um . well i 've not actually had too many pets uh over my uh time 'cause to be honest with you uh i 'm not too keen on them anyway . not to worry . so what my daughters have got at the moment is they 've got uh a few fish and so hopefully um wo n't prove too difficult to draw . uh user interface: project manager: as you can see that my artist artistic work is useless as well . marketing: project manager: anyway um . and uh one of the best uh things about fish is that they do n't really take uh too much looking after because uh with most of the animals if you 're going away on holiday or whatever , you 've got ta spend money or get a friend or whatever to look after them for you . whereas if you got fish , you just got ta put the food in a a a dripper feed which feeds them over the uh couple of weeks that you 're away and uh change the water every couple of months , and buy in a few plants , so . other than the fact that they keep dying , industrial designer: project manager: uh fish are uh are not are are are reasonable pets in that uh they 're low maintenance . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: great . project manager: right . okay , uh if we 're still all with us . right okay , so . work has been done on uh this uh project where by um twenty five euros is uh the uh expected uh selling price . that information has come from our marketing manager here . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: so we 're looking to sell internationally , not just in europe . we 're looking at um having our production costs limited to uh twelve and an half euro per unit . and therefore making a profit margin of uh well not actually a profit margin it 's uh because obviously you 're gon na have overheads and various other costs to uh take uh from uh from that to give you your profit margin per unit . and so depending what the uh the overhead uh costs are will determine uh how many units we 're uh looking to sell or projecting to sell at this point in time . industrial designer: project manager: so um experience with remote control , first ideas . new remote . so i guess we 're looking at um having a discussion at this point in time to help uh you um folks design our our new model as it were . industrial designer: yes . project manager: so uh any any thoughts ? industrial designer: um i with some remote controls the buttons were a little small so they 're quite hard to press so maybe we make something with uh easy to press buttons . as that is the main function . project manager: okay , so so basically we 're looking for some um we 're looking for a device that is um robust and and therefore uh wo n't get damaged too easily . industrial designer: yes . project manager: um we 're looking for a device that is uh what was the other things you said there ? industrial designer: um sort of easy to use so the buttons are accessible . project manager: easy to use . use . industrial designer: is easy to use and see . project manager: and see . industrial designer: yes . project manager: okay . uh . user interface: can i just check ? is this just a television remote ? because a lot of um systems are kind of tv video combined now , or tv d_v_d_ combined . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and one of the most annoying things is having like five remotes in the house . so if you 've got a combined system , it could be a combined remote . industrial designer: user interface: or is it just a television that we 're supposed to be doing ? marketing: mm . project manager: oh i w um basically i 'll get back to you on that . industrial designer: project manager: but it seems to me sensible , user interface: project manager: 'cause as you rightly said , there 's nothing more annoying than having three or four devices littered about the uh about the room . marketing: yeah . project manager: and uh user interface: project manager: so a device for for all remotes . industrial designer: sorry , you go . you go . marketing: i 've okay . yeah . um one of the things um we found from the market research is that people often get confused by the number of buttons on them as well . 'cause there 's quite often lots and lots . and um sometimes uh they sort of remote controls defeat their own purpose because you 're sat in the chair and the remote is somewhere else in the room . so whereas in the past you 'd have to get up to change the channel , now you have to get up to sort of pick up the remote . so so i do n't we need to sort of maybe think about how um we could maybe uh develop a remote control which moves around the room . industrial designer: user interface: comes to your whistle . project manager: hmm . marketing: that 's that 's maybe something for the future when you can talk to your television , but industrial designer: yeah . user interface: project manager: but is it in a sense it 's r um mutually exclusive . you ca n't have both the th the one device and then have few buttons on it to marketing: yeah . project manager: 'cause you want you want simplicity as well , you want any idiot to be able to use it . whilst at the same time you want , as you rightly said , one remote for all . marketing: yeah . project manager: and so these are probably mutually exclusive options marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yes . project manager: that uh marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: hmm you could argue that experience of using devices and similar devices as people get more and more used to using remotes , therefore they 're more with handling them , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: therefore you can make them more complicated as time goes on . industrial designer: maybe we could um have better instructions with the remote . or are we just doing the design of the remote control itself , or sort of the instructions that would come with it ? project manager: better instructions . marketing: yeah . i mean we 've done some research um about sort of you know what the cutting edge sort of hand held devices are , and a lot of them sort of use you know they 're like they 're like mini laptops . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so it 's possible that we could devise a system where where you 're you 're basically sort of holding a a miniature computer which is controlling all your your sort of your television , your stereo , and where you know if you buy a new thing then it sort of you can link it to that as well , maybe . project manager: okay . um well we 've got five minutes before the end of the meeting . so uh we have to uh start winding up . um is there next meeting in thirty minutes . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: okay . project manager: so um right , so we 've got i_d_ the come on , where 's my marketing: if you just click return it should be okay . it 'll get rid of the message . industrial designer: or not . project manager: marketing: if you hit just hit return and it should get rid of the message . project manager: oh there we go . marketing: oh you 've got . project manager: yeah . user interface: project manager: that 's what i was looking for . right . so we 've got function oh what happened to the user interface: i think that might be back to the start . um if you grab the kind of uh slide to the left and pull it down ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: slide four marketing: yeah . project manager: right . right . sorry about that . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: okay , so we 've got um the working design for i_d_ . for u_i_d_ the technical functions design . marketing , the user requirement specification . specific instructions will be sent to you by your person by your personal coach . so . are we all clear what objectives we 're looking to meet in the next thirty minutes ? industrial designer: project manager: and i guess i 'll try and write up some minutes of uh this meeting to uh to give it to you for the next meeting . industrial designer: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: 'kay , yes . user interface: i 'm not exactly clear on what we 're designing the rem remote for . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: is this a mun multi-functional one or do we decide that ourselves as we go away and work on it ? industrial designer: i think you just said at the start it was a television remote control , project manager: television remote control . industrial designer: so maybe we should just stick to that unless we get told otherwise . user interface: right . project manager: that 's true , 'cause during during the course of our day we might make decisions based on information or meetings that would change where we 're going . marketing: okay cool . project manager: but at this point in time i think you 're right that uh shall we make it just a tv . okay ? so we will depart . industrial designer: 'kay project manager: we will stay here and uh and break off . and i 'll do minutes and and we 'll see you in half and hour . industrial designer: okay , that 's great . user interface: okay . marketing: okay cheers . project manager: okay . right s

project manager gave the team members a brief introduction of the new remote control project , then the team started an ice breaking game by drawing their favourite animals . the expected selling price of the remote control is 25 euros and the production costs would be limited to twelve and a half euro per unit . marketing plan would depend on overhead costs . the team agreed that the remote needs to be robust , and they wanted it to be a device for all with accessible buttons . project manager suggested it to be only a television remote control instead of a multi-functional one .

summarize the discussion about the style and features of the remote control . </s> project manager: right , so start of the first meeting . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh . right , so agenda of the first meeting . where we uh we have twenty five minutes for this meeting . industrial designer: okay . project manager: we uh are to get acquainted . so does everyone want to say who they are ? that seem sensible ? marketing: yeah . i 'm robin . i 'm the marketing manager . user interface: i 'm louisa . i 'm the user interface designer . industrial designer: i 'm nick . i am the industrial designer . project manager: and i 'm alastair and i 'm the project leader . alright okay , so tool training . um . project plan . so does anyone have any uh thoughts as to the tool training that uh is required ? industrial designer: tool training user interface: i 'm not exactly sure what you mean by tool training . project manager: neither am i . user interface: marketing: project manager: oh i see , so we should n't really be oh right okay , so . so we have the project team , which is to um basically to come up with a new r remote control device . industrial designer: project manager: uh we have uh the starting base was the original which has been in existence now for a period of time . and uh our idea is to uh to make the new remote control device uh more user friendly than the previous one , and to to be trendier , to be with it , and therefore to uh to get a bigger market share and bigger audience . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so um method of doing this is uh split up as you can see into uh the functional design , the conceptional design , and the detailed design . so um in each of these uh phases we 'll uh basically be handing over to yourselves , the designers of this uh this device . industrial designer: yes . project manager: and uh having uh meetings so that we can uh during the course of the day um come up with a better better inst implement than we had before . and therefore um have a successful uh conclusion to the day . um and you 'll be doing uh various designs uh throughout the day to meet this end . marketing: mm-hmm , okay . project manager: so we 've got tool training . try out whiteboard . uh . so we will um . marketing: user interface: project manager: right so everyone 's to uh supposedly uh draw their favourite animal over on the white board over there . i guess this is uh make sure the whiteboard works . so uh i do n't know who wishes to go first . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: do you wish to go f have a first bash at uh whatever . user interface: i do n't mind . marketing: i dunno . user interface: um . project manager: ah uh . user interface: let 's see . marketing: user interface: good job i got pockets today . project manager: but now you you uh you 'll move out from the microphone and the camera . marketing: your microphone 's just project manager: i take it that user interface: are we supposed to do this right now , do you think , or ? project manager: i would i would guess so . or marketing: yeah . i do n't know . industrial designer: you 've lost uh your microphone there . project manager: technical problems . user interface: oh . right here we go . project manager: i mean you designers are meant to come up with these sort of things . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: project manager: user interface: okay . i think that i would have to say that my favourite animal is the cat . little smiley cat there . um and this would be because they 're very independent , uh they 're very intelligent , compared to dogs maybe . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: um and they can be very very affectionate . some people do n't think so but i know very affectionate cats . um . um and they can look after themselves . project manager: user interface: marketing: project manager: next . industrial designer: okay , yeah . i 'll i 'll user interface: shall i rub that out , actually ? project manager: i do n't see as there 's any need to . there 's plenty of space . industrial designer: project manager: i mean whatever . user interface: marketing: we can have have a whole menagerie . project manager: exactly . industrial designer: shall i see if i can get across without just tangling everything . okay . project manager: we 've had more time to prepare over this side , industrial designer: there 's one . project manager: so we 've all stuck our bits and pieces in our pockets . industrial designer: did n't think of that . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: 'kay uh project manager: the three pens are underneath . industrial designer: pens are over here . i 'll try the red pen . okay . um . i 'm gon na go for the bear which i 'm be able to draw very well , project manager: you get marks for artistic impression . industrial designer: but i 'll have a bash at it . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: uh . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: ooh ooh i lost it there . i think i 've just knocked the microphone . um . marketing: user interface: project manager: so you 're just doing the face . industrial designer: we 'll g then we 'll go for a a s small small bear . user interface: project manager: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: um and i like my animal that looks nothing like a bear because um i dunno maybe because there 's so many cartoon characters made up after the bear like the jungle book characters and stuff like that . project manager: industrial designer: great . marketing: right . hello . um i 'm gon na go for the dog , and i 'm gon na draw one badly as well . uh . looks like it 's going to be a dachshund or something . user interface: that 's quite good . industrial designer: marketing: right . there 's my dog . um i like dogs because they 're very loyal . and they 're always happy , so whenever whenever you 're feeling sort of a bit a bit down or tired , they 're always coming up and they 're always um quite excited . so um you can always have a lot of fun with a dog . and they 're also good for exercise as well . you can sorta get out and they they sorta never get tired . and and when they 're tired they 're quite cute as well , so . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: okay , that 's why i like dogs . project manager: right , um . well i 've not actually had too many pets uh over my uh time 'cause to be honest with you uh i 'm not too keen on them anyway . not to worry . so what my daughters have got at the moment is they 've got uh a few fish and so hopefully um wo n't prove too difficult to draw . uh user interface: project manager: as you can see that my artist artistic work is useless as well . marketing: project manager: anyway um . and uh one of the best uh things about fish is that they do n't really take uh too much looking after because uh with most of the animals if you 're going away on holiday or whatever , you 've got ta spend money or get a friend or whatever to look after them for you . whereas if you got fish , you just got ta put the food in a a a dripper feed which feeds them over the uh couple of weeks that you 're away and uh change the water every couple of months , and buy in a few plants , so . other than the fact that they keep dying , industrial designer: project manager: uh fish are uh are not are are are reasonable pets in that uh they 're low maintenance . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: great . project manager: right . okay , uh if we 're still all with us . right okay , so . work has been done on uh this uh project where by um twenty five euros is uh the uh expected uh selling price . that information has come from our marketing manager here . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: so we 're looking to sell internationally , not just in europe . we 're looking at um having our production costs limited to uh twelve and an half euro per unit . and therefore making a profit margin of uh well not actually a profit margin it 's uh because obviously you 're gon na have overheads and various other costs to uh take uh from uh from that to give you your profit margin per unit . and so depending what the uh the overhead uh costs are will determine uh how many units we 're uh looking to sell or projecting to sell at this point in time . industrial designer: project manager: so um experience with remote control , first ideas . new remote . so i guess we 're looking at um having a discussion at this point in time to help uh you um folks design our our new model as it were . industrial designer: yes . project manager: so uh any any thoughts ? industrial designer: um i with some remote controls the buttons were a little small so they 're quite hard to press so maybe we make something with uh easy to press buttons . as that is the main function . project manager: okay , so so basically we 're looking for some um we 're looking for a device that is um robust and and therefore uh wo n't get damaged too easily . industrial designer: yes . project manager: um we 're looking for a device that is uh what was the other things you said there ? industrial designer: um sort of easy to use so the buttons are accessible . project manager: easy to use . use . industrial designer: is easy to use and see . project manager: and see . industrial designer: yes . project manager: okay . uh . user interface: can i just check ? is this just a television remote ? because a lot of um systems are kind of tv video combined now , or tv d_v_d_ combined . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and one of the most annoying things is having like five remotes in the house . so if you 've got a combined system , it could be a combined remote . industrial designer: user interface: or is it just a television that we 're supposed to be doing ? marketing: mm . project manager: oh i w um basically i 'll get back to you on that . industrial designer: project manager: but it seems to me sensible , user interface: project manager: 'cause as you rightly said , there 's nothing more annoying than having three or four devices littered about the uh about the room . marketing: yeah . project manager: and uh user interface: project manager: so a device for for all remotes . industrial designer: sorry , you go . you go . marketing: i 've okay . yeah . um one of the things um we found from the market research is that people often get confused by the number of buttons on them as well . 'cause there 's quite often lots and lots . and um sometimes uh they sort of remote controls defeat their own purpose because you 're sat in the chair and the remote is somewhere else in the room . so whereas in the past you 'd have to get up to change the channel , now you have to get up to sort of pick up the remote . so so i do n't we need to sort of maybe think about how um we could maybe uh develop a remote control which moves around the room . industrial designer: user interface: comes to your whistle . project manager: hmm . marketing: that 's that 's maybe something for the future when you can talk to your television , but industrial designer: yeah . user interface: project manager: but is it in a sense it 's r um mutually exclusive . you ca n't have both the th the one device and then have few buttons on it to marketing: yeah . project manager: 'cause you want you want simplicity as well , you want any idiot to be able to use it . whilst at the same time you want , as you rightly said , one remote for all . marketing: yeah . project manager: and so these are probably mutually exclusive options marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yes . project manager: that uh marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: hmm you could argue that experience of using devices and similar devices as people get more and more used to using remotes , therefore they 're more with handling them , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: therefore you can make them more complicated as time goes on . industrial designer: maybe we could um have better instructions with the remote . or are we just doing the design of the remote control itself , or sort of the instructions that would come with it ? project manager: better instructions . marketing: yeah . i mean we 've done some research um about sort of you know what the cutting edge sort of hand held devices are , and a lot of them sort of use you know they 're like they 're like mini laptops . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so it 's possible that we could devise a system where where you 're you 're basically sort of holding a a miniature computer which is controlling all your your sort of your television , your stereo , and where you know if you buy a new thing then it sort of you can link it to that as well , maybe . project manager: okay . um well we 've got five minutes before the end of the meeting . so uh we have to uh start winding up . um is there next meeting in thirty minutes . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: okay . project manager: so um right , so we 've got i_d_ the come on , where 's my marketing: if you just click return it should be okay . it 'll get rid of the message . industrial designer: or not . project manager: marketing: if you hit just hit return and it should get rid of the message . project manager: oh there we go . marketing: oh you 've got . project manager: yeah . user interface: project manager: that 's what i was looking for . right . so we 've got function oh what happened to the user interface: i think that might be back to the start . um if you grab the kind of uh slide to the left and pull it down ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: slide four marketing: yeah . project manager: right . right . sorry about that . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: okay , so we 've got um the working design for i_d_ . for u_i_d_ the technical functions design . marketing , the user requirement specification . specific instructions will be sent to you by your person by your personal coach . so . are we all clear what objectives we 're looking to meet in the next thirty minutes ? industrial designer: project manager: and i guess i 'll try and write up some minutes of uh this meeting to uh to give it to you for the next meeting . industrial designer: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: 'kay , yes . user interface: i 'm not exactly clear on what we 're designing the rem remote for . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: is this a mun multi-functional one or do we decide that ourselves as we go away and work on it ? industrial designer: i think you just said at the start it was a television remote control , project manager: television remote control . industrial designer: so maybe we should just stick to that unless we get told otherwise . user interface: right . project manager: that 's true , 'cause during during the course of our day we might make decisions based on information or meetings that would change where we 're going . marketing: okay cool . project manager: but at this point in time i think you 're right that uh shall we make it just a tv . okay ? so we will depart . industrial designer: 'kay project manager: we will stay here and uh and break off . and i 'll do minutes and and we 'll see you in half and hour . industrial designer: okay , that 's great . user interface: okay . marketing: okay cheers . project manager: okay . right s

the team agreed that the device needed to be robust so that it would n't get damaged easily . as for the features , the team believed that fewer buttons on the remote control would make it easier to use . besides , a combined remote was favoured , as it can be a device for more than one remote . however , the team believed that the two features are mutually exclusive .

what did industrial designer think of the style of the new remote control ? </s> project manager: right , so start of the first meeting . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh . right , so agenda of the first meeting . where we uh we have twenty five minutes for this meeting . industrial designer: okay . project manager: we uh are to get acquainted . so does everyone want to say who they are ? that seem sensible ? marketing: yeah . i 'm robin . i 'm the marketing manager . user interface: i 'm louisa . i 'm the user interface designer . industrial designer: i 'm nick . i am the industrial designer . project manager: and i 'm alastair and i 'm the project leader . alright okay , so tool training . um . project plan . so does anyone have any uh thoughts as to the tool training that uh is required ? industrial designer: tool training user interface: i 'm not exactly sure what you mean by tool training . project manager: neither am i . user interface: marketing: project manager: oh i see , so we should n't really be oh right okay , so . so we have the project team , which is to um basically to come up with a new r remote control device . industrial designer: project manager: uh we have uh the starting base was the original which has been in existence now for a period of time . and uh our idea is to uh to make the new remote control device uh more user friendly than the previous one , and to to be trendier , to be with it , and therefore to uh to get a bigger market share and bigger audience . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so um method of doing this is uh split up as you can see into uh the functional design , the conceptional design , and the detailed design . so um in each of these uh phases we 'll uh basically be handing over to yourselves , the designers of this uh this device . industrial designer: yes . project manager: and uh having uh meetings so that we can uh during the course of the day um come up with a better better inst implement than we had before . and therefore um have a successful uh conclusion to the day . um and you 'll be doing uh various designs uh throughout the day to meet this end . marketing: mm-hmm , okay . project manager: so we 've got tool training . try out whiteboard . uh . so we will um . marketing: user interface: project manager: right so everyone 's to uh supposedly uh draw their favourite animal over on the white board over there . i guess this is uh make sure the whiteboard works . so uh i do n't know who wishes to go first . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: do you wish to go f have a first bash at uh whatever . user interface: i do n't mind . marketing: i dunno . user interface: um . project manager: ah uh . user interface: let 's see . marketing: user interface: good job i got pockets today . project manager: but now you you uh you 'll move out from the microphone and the camera . marketing: your microphone 's just project manager: i take it that user interface: are we supposed to do this right now , do you think , or ? project manager: i would i would guess so . or marketing: yeah . i do n't know . industrial designer: you 've lost uh your microphone there . project manager: technical problems . user interface: oh . right here we go . project manager: i mean you designers are meant to come up with these sort of things . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: project manager: user interface: okay . i think that i would have to say that my favourite animal is the cat . little smiley cat there . um and this would be because they 're very independent , uh they 're very intelligent , compared to dogs maybe . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: um and they can be very very affectionate . some people do n't think so but i know very affectionate cats . um . um and they can look after themselves . project manager: user interface: marketing: project manager: next . industrial designer: okay , yeah . i 'll i 'll user interface: shall i rub that out , actually ? project manager: i do n't see as there 's any need to . there 's plenty of space . industrial designer: project manager: i mean whatever . user interface: marketing: we can have have a whole menagerie . project manager: exactly . industrial designer: shall i see if i can get across without just tangling everything . okay . project manager: we 've had more time to prepare over this side , industrial designer: there 's one . project manager: so we 've all stuck our bits and pieces in our pockets . industrial designer: did n't think of that . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: 'kay uh project manager: the three pens are underneath . industrial designer: pens are over here . i 'll try the red pen . okay . um . i 'm gon na go for the bear which i 'm be able to draw very well , project manager: you get marks for artistic impression . industrial designer: but i 'll have a bash at it . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: uh . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: ooh ooh i lost it there . i think i 've just knocked the microphone . um . marketing: user interface: project manager: so you 're just doing the face . industrial designer: we 'll g then we 'll go for a a s small small bear . user interface: project manager: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: um and i like my animal that looks nothing like a bear because um i dunno maybe because there 's so many cartoon characters made up after the bear like the jungle book characters and stuff like that . project manager: industrial designer: great . marketing: right . hello . um i 'm gon na go for the dog , and i 'm gon na draw one badly as well . uh . looks like it 's going to be a dachshund or something . user interface: that 's quite good . industrial designer: marketing: right . there 's my dog . um i like dogs because they 're very loyal . and they 're always happy , so whenever whenever you 're feeling sort of a bit a bit down or tired , they 're always coming up and they 're always um quite excited . so um you can always have a lot of fun with a dog . and they 're also good for exercise as well . you can sorta get out and they they sorta never get tired . and and when they 're tired they 're quite cute as well , so . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: okay , that 's why i like dogs . project manager: right , um . well i 've not actually had too many pets uh over my uh time 'cause to be honest with you uh i 'm not too keen on them anyway . not to worry . so what my daughters have got at the moment is they 've got uh a few fish and so hopefully um wo n't prove too difficult to draw . uh user interface: project manager: as you can see that my artist artistic work is useless as well . marketing: project manager: anyway um . and uh one of the best uh things about fish is that they do n't really take uh too much looking after because uh with most of the animals if you 're going away on holiday or whatever , you 've got ta spend money or get a friend or whatever to look after them for you . whereas if you got fish , you just got ta put the food in a a a dripper feed which feeds them over the uh couple of weeks that you 're away and uh change the water every couple of months , and buy in a few plants , so . other than the fact that they keep dying , industrial designer: project manager: uh fish are uh are not are are are reasonable pets in that uh they 're low maintenance . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: great . project manager: right . okay , uh if we 're still all with us . right okay , so . work has been done on uh this uh project where by um twenty five euros is uh the uh expected uh selling price . that information has come from our marketing manager here . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: so we 're looking to sell internationally , not just in europe . we 're looking at um having our production costs limited to uh twelve and an half euro per unit . and therefore making a profit margin of uh well not actually a profit margin it 's uh because obviously you 're gon na have overheads and various other costs to uh take uh from uh from that to give you your profit margin per unit . and so depending what the uh the overhead uh costs are will determine uh how many units we 're uh looking to sell or projecting to sell at this point in time . industrial designer: project manager: so um experience with remote control , first ideas . new remote . so i guess we 're looking at um having a discussion at this point in time to help uh you um folks design our our new model as it were . industrial designer: yes . project manager: so uh any any thoughts ? industrial designer: um i with some remote controls the buttons were a little small so they 're quite hard to press so maybe we make something with uh easy to press buttons . as that is the main function . project manager: okay , so so basically we 're looking for some um we 're looking for a device that is um robust and and therefore uh wo n't get damaged too easily . industrial designer: yes . project manager: um we 're looking for a device that is uh what was the other things you said there ? industrial designer: um sort of easy to use so the buttons are accessible . project manager: easy to use . use . industrial designer: is easy to use and see . project manager: and see . industrial designer: yes . project manager: okay . uh . user interface: can i just check ? is this just a television remote ? because a lot of um systems are kind of tv video combined now , or tv d_v_d_ combined . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and one of the most annoying things is having like five remotes in the house . so if you 've got a combined system , it could be a combined remote . industrial designer: user interface: or is it just a television that we 're supposed to be doing ? marketing: mm . project manager: oh i w um basically i 'll get back to you on that . industrial designer: project manager: but it seems to me sensible , user interface: project manager: 'cause as you rightly said , there 's nothing more annoying than having three or four devices littered about the uh about the room . marketing: yeah . project manager: and uh user interface: project manager: so a device for for all remotes . industrial designer: sorry , you go . you go . marketing: i 've okay . yeah . um one of the things um we found from the market research is that people often get confused by the number of buttons on them as well . 'cause there 's quite often lots and lots . and um sometimes uh they sort of remote controls defeat their own purpose because you 're sat in the chair and the remote is somewhere else in the room . so whereas in the past you 'd have to get up to change the channel , now you have to get up to sort of pick up the remote . so so i do n't we need to sort of maybe think about how um we could maybe uh develop a remote control which moves around the room . industrial designer: user interface: comes to your whistle . project manager: hmm . marketing: that 's that 's maybe something for the future when you can talk to your television , but industrial designer: yeah . user interface: project manager: but is it in a sense it 's r um mutually exclusive . you ca n't have both the th the one device and then have few buttons on it to marketing: yeah . project manager: 'cause you want you want simplicity as well , you want any idiot to be able to use it . whilst at the same time you want , as you rightly said , one remote for all . marketing: yeah . project manager: and so these are probably mutually exclusive options marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yes . project manager: that uh marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: hmm you could argue that experience of using devices and similar devices as people get more and more used to using remotes , therefore they 're more with handling them , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: therefore you can make them more complicated as time goes on . industrial designer: maybe we could um have better instructions with the remote . or are we just doing the design of the remote control itself , or sort of the instructions that would come with it ? project manager: better instructions . marketing: yeah . i mean we 've done some research um about sort of you know what the cutting edge sort of hand held devices are , and a lot of them sort of use you know they 're like they 're like mini laptops . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so it 's possible that we could devise a system where where you 're you 're basically sort of holding a a miniature computer which is controlling all your your sort of your television , your stereo , and where you know if you buy a new thing then it sort of you can link it to that as well , maybe . project manager: okay . um well we 've got five minutes before the end of the meeting . so uh we have to uh start winding up . um is there next meeting in thirty minutes . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: okay . project manager: so um right , so we 've got i_d_ the come on , where 's my marketing: if you just click return it should be okay . it 'll get rid of the message . industrial designer: or not . project manager: marketing: if you hit just hit return and it should get rid of the message . project manager: oh there we go . marketing: oh you 've got . project manager: yeah . user interface: project manager: that 's what i was looking for . right . so we 've got function oh what happened to the user interface: i think that might be back to the start . um if you grab the kind of uh slide to the left and pull it down ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: slide four marketing: yeah . project manager: right . right . sorry about that . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: okay , so we 've got um the working design for i_d_ . for u_i_d_ the technical functions design . marketing , the user requirement specification . specific instructions will be sent to you by your person by your personal coach . so . are we all clear what objectives we 're looking to meet in the next thirty minutes ? industrial designer: project manager: and i guess i 'll try and write up some minutes of uh this meeting to uh to give it to you for the next meeting . industrial designer: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: 'kay , yes . user interface: i 'm not exactly clear on what we 're designing the rem remote for . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: is this a mun multi-functional one or do we decide that ourselves as we go away and work on it ? industrial designer: i think you just said at the start it was a television remote control , project manager: television remote control . industrial designer: so maybe we should just stick to that unless we get told otherwise . user interface: right . project manager: that 's true , 'cause during during the course of our day we might make decisions based on information or meetings that would change where we 're going . marketing: okay cool . project manager: but at this point in time i think you 're right that uh shall we make it just a tv . okay ? so we will depart . industrial designer: 'kay project manager: we will stay here and uh and break off . and i 'll do minutes and and we 'll see you in half and hour . industrial designer: okay , that 's great . user interface: okay . marketing: okay cheers . project manager: okay . right s

industrial designer thought that a remote with more accessible buttons can make it easier to use , as some of the buttons of the remote he used were too small to press . he also suggested that the remote needs to be robust , so that it would not be damaged easily .

what did marketing suggest when discussing the features of the new remote and why ? </s> project manager: right , so start of the first meeting . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh . right , so agenda of the first meeting . where we uh we have twenty five minutes for this meeting . industrial designer: okay . project manager: we uh are to get acquainted . so does everyone want to say who they are ? that seem sensible ? marketing: yeah . i 'm robin . i 'm the marketing manager . user interface: i 'm louisa . i 'm the user interface designer . industrial designer: i 'm nick . i am the industrial designer . project manager: and i 'm alastair and i 'm the project leader . alright okay , so tool training . um . project plan . so does anyone have any uh thoughts as to the tool training that uh is required ? industrial designer: tool training user interface: i 'm not exactly sure what you mean by tool training . project manager: neither am i . user interface: marketing: project manager: oh i see , so we should n't really be oh right okay , so . so we have the project team , which is to um basically to come up with a new r remote control device . industrial designer: project manager: uh we have uh the starting base was the original which has been in existence now for a period of time . and uh our idea is to uh to make the new remote control device uh more user friendly than the previous one , and to to be trendier , to be with it , and therefore to uh to get a bigger market share and bigger audience . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so um method of doing this is uh split up as you can see into uh the functional design , the conceptional design , and the detailed design . so um in each of these uh phases we 'll uh basically be handing over to yourselves , the designers of this uh this device . industrial designer: yes . project manager: and uh having uh meetings so that we can uh during the course of the day um come up with a better better inst implement than we had before . and therefore um have a successful uh conclusion to the day . um and you 'll be doing uh various designs uh throughout the day to meet this end . marketing: mm-hmm , okay . project manager: so we 've got tool training . try out whiteboard . uh . so we will um . marketing: user interface: project manager: right so everyone 's to uh supposedly uh draw their favourite animal over on the white board over there . i guess this is uh make sure the whiteboard works . so uh i do n't know who wishes to go first . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: do you wish to go f have a first bash at uh whatever . user interface: i do n't mind . marketing: i dunno . user interface: um . project manager: ah uh . user interface: let 's see . marketing: user interface: good job i got pockets today . project manager: but now you you uh you 'll move out from the microphone and the camera . marketing: your microphone 's just project manager: i take it that user interface: are we supposed to do this right now , do you think , or ? project manager: i would i would guess so . or marketing: yeah . i do n't know . industrial designer: you 've lost uh your microphone there . project manager: technical problems . user interface: oh . right here we go . project manager: i mean you designers are meant to come up with these sort of things . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: project manager: user interface: okay . i think that i would have to say that my favourite animal is the cat . little smiley cat there . um and this would be because they 're very independent , uh they 're very intelligent , compared to dogs maybe . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: um and they can be very very affectionate . some people do n't think so but i know very affectionate cats . um . um and they can look after themselves . project manager: user interface: marketing: project manager: next . industrial designer: okay , yeah . i 'll i 'll user interface: shall i rub that out , actually ? project manager: i do n't see as there 's any need to . there 's plenty of space . industrial designer: project manager: i mean whatever . user interface: marketing: we can have have a whole menagerie . project manager: exactly . industrial designer: shall i see if i can get across without just tangling everything . okay . project manager: we 've had more time to prepare over this side , industrial designer: there 's one . project manager: so we 've all stuck our bits and pieces in our pockets . industrial designer: did n't think of that . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: 'kay uh project manager: the three pens are underneath . industrial designer: pens are over here . i 'll try the red pen . okay . um . i 'm gon na go for the bear which i 'm be able to draw very well , project manager: you get marks for artistic impression . industrial designer: but i 'll have a bash at it . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: uh . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: ooh ooh i lost it there . i think i 've just knocked the microphone . um . marketing: user interface: project manager: so you 're just doing the face . industrial designer: we 'll g then we 'll go for a a s small small bear . user interface: project manager: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: um and i like my animal that looks nothing like a bear because um i dunno maybe because there 's so many cartoon characters made up after the bear like the jungle book characters and stuff like that . project manager: industrial designer: great . marketing: right . hello . um i 'm gon na go for the dog , and i 'm gon na draw one badly as well . uh . looks like it 's going to be a dachshund or something . user interface: that 's quite good . industrial designer: marketing: right . there 's my dog . um i like dogs because they 're very loyal . and they 're always happy , so whenever whenever you 're feeling sort of a bit a bit down or tired , they 're always coming up and they 're always um quite excited . so um you can always have a lot of fun with a dog . and they 're also good for exercise as well . you can sorta get out and they they sorta never get tired . and and when they 're tired they 're quite cute as well , so . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: okay , that 's why i like dogs . project manager: right , um . well i 've not actually had too many pets uh over my uh time 'cause to be honest with you uh i 'm not too keen on them anyway . not to worry . so what my daughters have got at the moment is they 've got uh a few fish and so hopefully um wo n't prove too difficult to draw . uh user interface: project manager: as you can see that my artist artistic work is useless as well . marketing: project manager: anyway um . and uh one of the best uh things about fish is that they do n't really take uh too much looking after because uh with most of the animals if you 're going away on holiday or whatever , you 've got ta spend money or get a friend or whatever to look after them for you . whereas if you got fish , you just got ta put the food in a a a dripper feed which feeds them over the uh couple of weeks that you 're away and uh change the water every couple of months , and buy in a few plants , so . other than the fact that they keep dying , industrial designer: project manager: uh fish are uh are not are are are reasonable pets in that uh they 're low maintenance . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: great . project manager: right . okay , uh if we 're still all with us . right okay , so . work has been done on uh this uh project where by um twenty five euros is uh the uh expected uh selling price . that information has come from our marketing manager here . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: so we 're looking to sell internationally , not just in europe . we 're looking at um having our production costs limited to uh twelve and an half euro per unit . and therefore making a profit margin of uh well not actually a profit margin it 's uh because obviously you 're gon na have overheads and various other costs to uh take uh from uh from that to give you your profit margin per unit . and so depending what the uh the overhead uh costs are will determine uh how many units we 're uh looking to sell or projecting to sell at this point in time . industrial designer: project manager: so um experience with remote control , first ideas . new remote . so i guess we 're looking at um having a discussion at this point in time to help uh you um folks design our our new model as it were . industrial designer: yes . project manager: so uh any any thoughts ? industrial designer: um i with some remote controls the buttons were a little small so they 're quite hard to press so maybe we make something with uh easy to press buttons . as that is the main function . project manager: okay , so so basically we 're looking for some um we 're looking for a device that is um robust and and therefore uh wo n't get damaged too easily . industrial designer: yes . project manager: um we 're looking for a device that is uh what was the other things you said there ? industrial designer: um sort of easy to use so the buttons are accessible . project manager: easy to use . use . industrial designer: is easy to use and see . project manager: and see . industrial designer: yes . project manager: okay . uh . user interface: can i just check ? is this just a television remote ? because a lot of um systems are kind of tv video combined now , or tv d_v_d_ combined . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and one of the most annoying things is having like five remotes in the house . so if you 've got a combined system , it could be a combined remote . industrial designer: user interface: or is it just a television that we 're supposed to be doing ? marketing: mm . project manager: oh i w um basically i 'll get back to you on that . industrial designer: project manager: but it seems to me sensible , user interface: project manager: 'cause as you rightly said , there 's nothing more annoying than having three or four devices littered about the uh about the room . marketing: yeah . project manager: and uh user interface: project manager: so a device for for all remotes . industrial designer: sorry , you go . you go . marketing: i 've okay . yeah . um one of the things um we found from the market research is that people often get confused by the number of buttons on them as well . 'cause there 's quite often lots and lots . and um sometimes uh they sort of remote controls defeat their own purpose because you 're sat in the chair and the remote is somewhere else in the room . so whereas in the past you 'd have to get up to change the channel , now you have to get up to sort of pick up the remote . so so i do n't we need to sort of maybe think about how um we could maybe uh develop a remote control which moves around the room . industrial designer: user interface: comes to your whistle . project manager: hmm . marketing: that 's that 's maybe something for the future when you can talk to your television , but industrial designer: yeah . user interface: project manager: but is it in a sense it 's r um mutually exclusive . you ca n't have both the th the one device and then have few buttons on it to marketing: yeah . project manager: 'cause you want you want simplicity as well , you want any idiot to be able to use it . whilst at the same time you want , as you rightly said , one remote for all . marketing: yeah . project manager: and so these are probably mutually exclusive options marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yes . project manager: that uh marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: hmm you could argue that experience of using devices and similar devices as people get more and more used to using remotes , therefore they 're more with handling them , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: therefore you can make them more complicated as time goes on . industrial designer: maybe we could um have better instructions with the remote . or are we just doing the design of the remote control itself , or sort of the instructions that would come with it ? project manager: better instructions . marketing: yeah . i mean we 've done some research um about sort of you know what the cutting edge sort of hand held devices are , and a lot of them sort of use you know they 're like they 're like mini laptops . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so it 's possible that we could devise a system where where you 're you 're basically sort of holding a a miniature computer which is controlling all your your sort of your television , your stereo , and where you know if you buy a new thing then it sort of you can link it to that as well , maybe . project manager: okay . um well we 've got five minutes before the end of the meeting . so uh we have to uh start winding up . um is there next meeting in thirty minutes . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: okay . project manager: so um right , so we 've got i_d_ the come on , where 's my marketing: if you just click return it should be okay . it 'll get rid of the message . industrial designer: or not . project manager: marketing: if you hit just hit return and it should get rid of the message . project manager: oh there we go . marketing: oh you 've got . project manager: yeah . user interface: project manager: that 's what i was looking for . right . so we 've got function oh what happened to the user interface: i think that might be back to the start . um if you grab the kind of uh slide to the left and pull it down ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: slide four marketing: yeah . project manager: right . right . sorry about that . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: okay , so we 've got um the working design for i_d_ . for u_i_d_ the technical functions design . marketing , the user requirement specification . specific instructions will be sent to you by your person by your personal coach . so . are we all clear what objectives we 're looking to meet in the next thirty minutes ? industrial designer: project manager: and i guess i 'll try and write up some minutes of uh this meeting to uh to give it to you for the next meeting . industrial designer: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: 'kay , yes . user interface: i 'm not exactly clear on what we 're designing the rem remote for . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: is this a mun multi-functional one or do we decide that ourselves as we go away and work on it ? industrial designer: i think you just said at the start it was a television remote control , project manager: television remote control . industrial designer: so maybe we should just stick to that unless we get told otherwise . user interface: right . project manager: that 's true , 'cause during during the course of our day we might make decisions based on information or meetings that would change where we 're going . marketing: okay cool . project manager: but at this point in time i think you 're right that uh shall we make it just a tv . okay ? so we will depart . industrial designer: 'kay project manager: we will stay here and uh and break off . and i 'll do minutes and and we 'll see you in half and hour . industrial designer: okay , that 's great . user interface: okay . marketing: okay cheers . project manager: okay . right s

he suggested that they could develop a remote control which moves around the room , so that the customer does not need to get up to pick up the remote in the other room . however , he also made clear that it is only an idea for the future .

summarize the discussion about the function of the remote control . </s> project manager: right , so start of the first meeting . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh . right , so agenda of the first meeting . where we uh we have twenty five minutes for this meeting . industrial designer: okay . project manager: we uh are to get acquainted . so does everyone want to say who they are ? that seem sensible ? marketing: yeah . i 'm robin . i 'm the marketing manager . user interface: i 'm louisa . i 'm the user interface designer . industrial designer: i 'm nick . i am the industrial designer . project manager: and i 'm alastair and i 'm the project leader . alright okay , so tool training . um . project plan . so does anyone have any uh thoughts as to the tool training that uh is required ? industrial designer: tool training user interface: i 'm not exactly sure what you mean by tool training . project manager: neither am i . user interface: marketing: project manager: oh i see , so we should n't really be oh right okay , so . so we have the project team , which is to um basically to come up with a new r remote control device . industrial designer: project manager: uh we have uh the starting base was the original which has been in existence now for a period of time . and uh our idea is to uh to make the new remote control device uh more user friendly than the previous one , and to to be trendier , to be with it , and therefore to uh to get a bigger market share and bigger audience . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so um method of doing this is uh split up as you can see into uh the functional design , the conceptional design , and the detailed design . so um in each of these uh phases we 'll uh basically be handing over to yourselves , the designers of this uh this device . industrial designer: yes . project manager: and uh having uh meetings so that we can uh during the course of the day um come up with a better better inst implement than we had before . and therefore um have a successful uh conclusion to the day . um and you 'll be doing uh various designs uh throughout the day to meet this end . marketing: mm-hmm , okay . project manager: so we 've got tool training . try out whiteboard . uh . so we will um . marketing: user interface: project manager: right so everyone 's to uh supposedly uh draw their favourite animal over on the white board over there . i guess this is uh make sure the whiteboard works . so uh i do n't know who wishes to go first . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: do you wish to go f have a first bash at uh whatever . user interface: i do n't mind . marketing: i dunno . user interface: um . project manager: ah uh . user interface: let 's see . marketing: user interface: good job i got pockets today . project manager: but now you you uh you 'll move out from the microphone and the camera . marketing: your microphone 's just project manager: i take it that user interface: are we supposed to do this right now , do you think , or ? project manager: i would i would guess so . or marketing: yeah . i do n't know . industrial designer: you 've lost uh your microphone there . project manager: technical problems . user interface: oh . right here we go . project manager: i mean you designers are meant to come up with these sort of things . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: project manager: user interface: okay . i think that i would have to say that my favourite animal is the cat . little smiley cat there . um and this would be because they 're very independent , uh they 're very intelligent , compared to dogs maybe . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: um and they can be very very affectionate . some people do n't think so but i know very affectionate cats . um . um and they can look after themselves . project manager: user interface: marketing: project manager: next . industrial designer: okay , yeah . i 'll i 'll user interface: shall i rub that out , actually ? project manager: i do n't see as there 's any need to . there 's plenty of space . industrial designer: project manager: i mean whatever . user interface: marketing: we can have have a whole menagerie . project manager: exactly . industrial designer: shall i see if i can get across without just tangling everything . okay . project manager: we 've had more time to prepare over this side , industrial designer: there 's one . project manager: so we 've all stuck our bits and pieces in our pockets . industrial designer: did n't think of that . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: 'kay uh project manager: the three pens are underneath . industrial designer: pens are over here . i 'll try the red pen . okay . um . i 'm gon na go for the bear which i 'm be able to draw very well , project manager: you get marks for artistic impression . industrial designer: but i 'll have a bash at it . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: uh . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: ooh ooh i lost it there . i think i 've just knocked the microphone . um . marketing: user interface: project manager: so you 're just doing the face . industrial designer: we 'll g then we 'll go for a a s small small bear . user interface: project manager: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: um and i like my animal that looks nothing like a bear because um i dunno maybe because there 's so many cartoon characters made up after the bear like the jungle book characters and stuff like that . project manager: industrial designer: great . marketing: right . hello . um i 'm gon na go for the dog , and i 'm gon na draw one badly as well . uh . looks like it 's going to be a dachshund or something . user interface: that 's quite good . industrial designer: marketing: right . there 's my dog . um i like dogs because they 're very loyal . and they 're always happy , so whenever whenever you 're feeling sort of a bit a bit down or tired , they 're always coming up and they 're always um quite excited . so um you can always have a lot of fun with a dog . and they 're also good for exercise as well . you can sorta get out and they they sorta never get tired . and and when they 're tired they 're quite cute as well , so . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: okay , that 's why i like dogs . project manager: right , um . well i 've not actually had too many pets uh over my uh time 'cause to be honest with you uh i 'm not too keen on them anyway . not to worry . so what my daughters have got at the moment is they 've got uh a few fish and so hopefully um wo n't prove too difficult to draw . uh user interface: project manager: as you can see that my artist artistic work is useless as well . marketing: project manager: anyway um . and uh one of the best uh things about fish is that they do n't really take uh too much looking after because uh with most of the animals if you 're going away on holiday or whatever , you 've got ta spend money or get a friend or whatever to look after them for you . whereas if you got fish , you just got ta put the food in a a a dripper feed which feeds them over the uh couple of weeks that you 're away and uh change the water every couple of months , and buy in a few plants , so . other than the fact that they keep dying , industrial designer: project manager: uh fish are uh are not are are are reasonable pets in that uh they 're low maintenance . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: great . project manager: right . okay , uh if we 're still all with us . right okay , so . work has been done on uh this uh project where by um twenty five euros is uh the uh expected uh selling price . that information has come from our marketing manager here . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: so we 're looking to sell internationally , not just in europe . we 're looking at um having our production costs limited to uh twelve and an half euro per unit . and therefore making a profit margin of uh well not actually a profit margin it 's uh because obviously you 're gon na have overheads and various other costs to uh take uh from uh from that to give you your profit margin per unit . and so depending what the uh the overhead uh costs are will determine uh how many units we 're uh looking to sell or projecting to sell at this point in time . industrial designer: project manager: so um experience with remote control , first ideas . new remote . so i guess we 're looking at um having a discussion at this point in time to help uh you um folks design our our new model as it were . industrial designer: yes . project manager: so uh any any thoughts ? industrial designer: um i with some remote controls the buttons were a little small so they 're quite hard to press so maybe we make something with uh easy to press buttons . as that is the main function . project manager: okay , so so basically we 're looking for some um we 're looking for a device that is um robust and and therefore uh wo n't get damaged too easily . industrial designer: yes . project manager: um we 're looking for a device that is uh what was the other things you said there ? industrial designer: um sort of easy to use so the buttons are accessible . project manager: easy to use . use . industrial designer: is easy to use and see . project manager: and see . industrial designer: yes . project manager: okay . uh . user interface: can i just check ? is this just a television remote ? because a lot of um systems are kind of tv video combined now , or tv d_v_d_ combined . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and one of the most annoying things is having like five remotes in the house . so if you 've got a combined system , it could be a combined remote . industrial designer: user interface: or is it just a television that we 're supposed to be doing ? marketing: mm . project manager: oh i w um basically i 'll get back to you on that . industrial designer: project manager: but it seems to me sensible , user interface: project manager: 'cause as you rightly said , there 's nothing more annoying than having three or four devices littered about the uh about the room . marketing: yeah . project manager: and uh user interface: project manager: so a device for for all remotes . industrial designer: sorry , you go . you go . marketing: i 've okay . yeah . um one of the things um we found from the market research is that people often get confused by the number of buttons on them as well . 'cause there 's quite often lots and lots . and um sometimes uh they sort of remote controls defeat their own purpose because you 're sat in the chair and the remote is somewhere else in the room . so whereas in the past you 'd have to get up to change the channel , now you have to get up to sort of pick up the remote . so so i do n't we need to sort of maybe think about how um we could maybe uh develop a remote control which moves around the room . industrial designer: user interface: comes to your whistle . project manager: hmm . marketing: that 's that 's maybe something for the future when you can talk to your television , but industrial designer: yeah . user interface: project manager: but is it in a sense it 's r um mutually exclusive . you ca n't have both the th the one device and then have few buttons on it to marketing: yeah . project manager: 'cause you want you want simplicity as well , you want any idiot to be able to use it . whilst at the same time you want , as you rightly said , one remote for all . marketing: yeah . project manager: and so these are probably mutually exclusive options marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yes . project manager: that uh marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: hmm you could argue that experience of using devices and similar devices as people get more and more used to using remotes , therefore they 're more with handling them , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: therefore you can make them more complicated as time goes on . industrial designer: maybe we could um have better instructions with the remote . or are we just doing the design of the remote control itself , or sort of the instructions that would come with it ? project manager: better instructions . marketing: yeah . i mean we 've done some research um about sort of you know what the cutting edge sort of hand held devices are , and a lot of them sort of use you know they 're like they 're like mini laptops . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so it 's possible that we could devise a system where where you 're you 're basically sort of holding a a miniature computer which is controlling all your your sort of your television , your stereo , and where you know if you buy a new thing then it sort of you can link it to that as well , maybe . project manager: okay . um well we 've got five minutes before the end of the meeting . so uh we have to uh start winding up . um is there next meeting in thirty minutes . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: okay . project manager: so um right , so we 've got i_d_ the come on , where 's my marketing: if you just click return it should be okay . it 'll get rid of the message . industrial designer: or not . project manager: marketing: if you hit just hit return and it should get rid of the message . project manager: oh there we go . marketing: oh you 've got . project manager: yeah . user interface: project manager: that 's what i was looking for . right . so we 've got function oh what happened to the user interface: i think that might be back to the start . um if you grab the kind of uh slide to the left and pull it down ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: slide four marketing: yeah . project manager: right . right . sorry about that . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: okay , so we 've got um the working design for i_d_ . for u_i_d_ the technical functions design . marketing , the user requirement specification . specific instructions will be sent to you by your person by your personal coach . so . are we all clear what objectives we 're looking to meet in the next thirty minutes ? industrial designer: project manager: and i guess i 'll try and write up some minutes of uh this meeting to uh to give it to you for the next meeting . industrial designer: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: 'kay , yes . user interface: i 'm not exactly clear on what we 're designing the rem remote for . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: is this a mun multi-functional one or do we decide that ourselves as we go away and work on it ? industrial designer: i think you just said at the start it was a television remote control , project manager: television remote control . industrial designer: so maybe we should just stick to that unless we get told otherwise . user interface: right . project manager: that 's true , 'cause during during the course of our day we might make decisions based on information or meetings that would change where we 're going . marketing: okay cool . project manager: but at this point in time i think you 're right that uh shall we make it just a tv . okay ? so we will depart . industrial designer: 'kay project manager: we will stay here and uh and break off . and i 'll do minutes and and we 'll see you in half and hour . industrial designer: okay , that 's great . user interface: okay . marketing: okay cheers . project manager: okay . right s

marketing suggested that they could develop the remote control into a hand held mini laptop , so that it could control all sorts of appliances . but at the end of the meeting , they made the decision that the new remote control would not be a multi-functional one , and it would only be designed for television .

what did marketing suggest to do when discussing the function of the new remote control and why ? </s> project manager: right , so start of the first meeting . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh . right , so agenda of the first meeting . where we uh we have twenty five minutes for this meeting . industrial designer: okay . project manager: we uh are to get acquainted . so does everyone want to say who they are ? that seem sensible ? marketing: yeah . i 'm robin . i 'm the marketing manager . user interface: i 'm louisa . i 'm the user interface designer . industrial designer: i 'm nick . i am the industrial designer . project manager: and i 'm alastair and i 'm the project leader . alright okay , so tool training . um . project plan . so does anyone have any uh thoughts as to the tool training that uh is required ? industrial designer: tool training user interface: i 'm not exactly sure what you mean by tool training . project manager: neither am i . user interface: marketing: project manager: oh i see , so we should n't really be oh right okay , so . so we have the project team , which is to um basically to come up with a new r remote control device . industrial designer: project manager: uh we have uh the starting base was the original which has been in existence now for a period of time . and uh our idea is to uh to make the new remote control device uh more user friendly than the previous one , and to to be trendier , to be with it , and therefore to uh to get a bigger market share and bigger audience . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so um method of doing this is uh split up as you can see into uh the functional design , the conceptional design , and the detailed design . so um in each of these uh phases we 'll uh basically be handing over to yourselves , the designers of this uh this device . industrial designer: yes . project manager: and uh having uh meetings so that we can uh during the course of the day um come up with a better better inst implement than we had before . and therefore um have a successful uh conclusion to the day . um and you 'll be doing uh various designs uh throughout the day to meet this end . marketing: mm-hmm , okay . project manager: so we 've got tool training . try out whiteboard . uh . so we will um . marketing: user interface: project manager: right so everyone 's to uh supposedly uh draw their favourite animal over on the white board over there . i guess this is uh make sure the whiteboard works . so uh i do n't know who wishes to go first . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: do you wish to go f have a first bash at uh whatever . user interface: i do n't mind . marketing: i dunno . user interface: um . project manager: ah uh . user interface: let 's see . marketing: user interface: good job i got pockets today . project manager: but now you you uh you 'll move out from the microphone and the camera . marketing: your microphone 's just project manager: i take it that user interface: are we supposed to do this right now , do you think , or ? project manager: i would i would guess so . or marketing: yeah . i do n't know . industrial designer: you 've lost uh your microphone there . project manager: technical problems . user interface: oh . right here we go . project manager: i mean you designers are meant to come up with these sort of things . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: project manager: user interface: okay . i think that i would have to say that my favourite animal is the cat . little smiley cat there . um and this would be because they 're very independent , uh they 're very intelligent , compared to dogs maybe . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: um and they can be very very affectionate . some people do n't think so but i know very affectionate cats . um . um and they can look after themselves . project manager: user interface: marketing: project manager: next . industrial designer: okay , yeah . i 'll i 'll user interface: shall i rub that out , actually ? project manager: i do n't see as there 's any need to . there 's plenty of space . industrial designer: project manager: i mean whatever . user interface: marketing: we can have have a whole menagerie . project manager: exactly . industrial designer: shall i see if i can get across without just tangling everything . okay . project manager: we 've had more time to prepare over this side , industrial designer: there 's one . project manager: so we 've all stuck our bits and pieces in our pockets . industrial designer: did n't think of that . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: 'kay uh project manager: the three pens are underneath . industrial designer: pens are over here . i 'll try the red pen . okay . um . i 'm gon na go for the bear which i 'm be able to draw very well , project manager: you get marks for artistic impression . industrial designer: but i 'll have a bash at it . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: uh . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: ooh ooh i lost it there . i think i 've just knocked the microphone . um . marketing: user interface: project manager: so you 're just doing the face . industrial designer: we 'll g then we 'll go for a a s small small bear . user interface: project manager: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: um and i like my animal that looks nothing like a bear because um i dunno maybe because there 's so many cartoon characters made up after the bear like the jungle book characters and stuff like that . project manager: industrial designer: great . marketing: right . hello . um i 'm gon na go for the dog , and i 'm gon na draw one badly as well . uh . looks like it 's going to be a dachshund or something . user interface: that 's quite good . industrial designer: marketing: right . there 's my dog . um i like dogs because they 're very loyal . and they 're always happy , so whenever whenever you 're feeling sort of a bit a bit down or tired , they 're always coming up and they 're always um quite excited . so um you can always have a lot of fun with a dog . and they 're also good for exercise as well . you can sorta get out and they they sorta never get tired . and and when they 're tired they 're quite cute as well , so . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: okay , that 's why i like dogs . project manager: right , um . well i 've not actually had too many pets uh over my uh time 'cause to be honest with you uh i 'm not too keen on them anyway . not to worry . so what my daughters have got at the moment is they 've got uh a few fish and so hopefully um wo n't prove too difficult to draw . uh user interface: project manager: as you can see that my artist artistic work is useless as well . marketing: project manager: anyway um . and uh one of the best uh things about fish is that they do n't really take uh too much looking after because uh with most of the animals if you 're going away on holiday or whatever , you 've got ta spend money or get a friend or whatever to look after them for you . whereas if you got fish , you just got ta put the food in a a a dripper feed which feeds them over the uh couple of weeks that you 're away and uh change the water every couple of months , and buy in a few plants , so . other than the fact that they keep dying , industrial designer: project manager: uh fish are uh are not are are are reasonable pets in that uh they 're low maintenance . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: great . project manager: right . okay , uh if we 're still all with us . right okay , so . work has been done on uh this uh project where by um twenty five euros is uh the uh expected uh selling price . that information has come from our marketing manager here . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: so we 're looking to sell internationally , not just in europe . we 're looking at um having our production costs limited to uh twelve and an half euro per unit . and therefore making a profit margin of uh well not actually a profit margin it 's uh because obviously you 're gon na have overheads and various other costs to uh take uh from uh from that to give you your profit margin per unit . and so depending what the uh the overhead uh costs are will determine uh how many units we 're uh looking to sell or projecting to sell at this point in time . industrial designer: project manager: so um experience with remote control , first ideas . new remote . so i guess we 're looking at um having a discussion at this point in time to help uh you um folks design our our new model as it were . industrial designer: yes . project manager: so uh any any thoughts ? industrial designer: um i with some remote controls the buttons were a little small so they 're quite hard to press so maybe we make something with uh easy to press buttons . as that is the main function . project manager: okay , so so basically we 're looking for some um we 're looking for a device that is um robust and and therefore uh wo n't get damaged too easily . industrial designer: yes . project manager: um we 're looking for a device that is uh what was the other things you said there ? industrial designer: um sort of easy to use so the buttons are accessible . project manager: easy to use . use . industrial designer: is easy to use and see . project manager: and see . industrial designer: yes . project manager: okay . uh . user interface: can i just check ? is this just a television remote ? because a lot of um systems are kind of tv video combined now , or tv d_v_d_ combined . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and one of the most annoying things is having like five remotes in the house . so if you 've got a combined system , it could be a combined remote . industrial designer: user interface: or is it just a television that we 're supposed to be doing ? marketing: mm . project manager: oh i w um basically i 'll get back to you on that . industrial designer: project manager: but it seems to me sensible , user interface: project manager: 'cause as you rightly said , there 's nothing more annoying than having three or four devices littered about the uh about the room . marketing: yeah . project manager: and uh user interface: project manager: so a device for for all remotes . industrial designer: sorry , you go . you go . marketing: i 've okay . yeah . um one of the things um we found from the market research is that people often get confused by the number of buttons on them as well . 'cause there 's quite often lots and lots . and um sometimes uh they sort of remote controls defeat their own purpose because you 're sat in the chair and the remote is somewhere else in the room . so whereas in the past you 'd have to get up to change the channel , now you have to get up to sort of pick up the remote . so so i do n't we need to sort of maybe think about how um we could maybe uh develop a remote control which moves around the room . industrial designer: user interface: comes to your whistle . project manager: hmm . marketing: that 's that 's maybe something for the future when you can talk to your television , but industrial designer: yeah . user interface: project manager: but is it in a sense it 's r um mutually exclusive . you ca n't have both the th the one device and then have few buttons on it to marketing: yeah . project manager: 'cause you want you want simplicity as well , you want any idiot to be able to use it . whilst at the same time you want , as you rightly said , one remote for all . marketing: yeah . project manager: and so these are probably mutually exclusive options marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yes . project manager: that uh marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: hmm you could argue that experience of using devices and similar devices as people get more and more used to using remotes , therefore they 're more with handling them , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: therefore you can make them more complicated as time goes on . industrial designer: maybe we could um have better instructions with the remote . or are we just doing the design of the remote control itself , or sort of the instructions that would come with it ? project manager: better instructions . marketing: yeah . i mean we 've done some research um about sort of you know what the cutting edge sort of hand held devices are , and a lot of them sort of use you know they 're like they 're like mini laptops . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so it 's possible that we could devise a system where where you 're you 're basically sort of holding a a miniature computer which is controlling all your your sort of your television , your stereo , and where you know if you buy a new thing then it sort of you can link it to that as well , maybe . project manager: okay . um well we 've got five minutes before the end of the meeting . so uh we have to uh start winding up . um is there next meeting in thirty minutes . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: okay . project manager: so um right , so we 've got i_d_ the come on , where 's my marketing: if you just click return it should be okay . it 'll get rid of the message . industrial designer: or not . project manager: marketing: if you hit just hit return and it should get rid of the message . project manager: oh there we go . marketing: oh you 've got . project manager: yeah . user interface: project manager: that 's what i was looking for . right . so we 've got function oh what happened to the user interface: i think that might be back to the start . um if you grab the kind of uh slide to the left and pull it down ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: slide four marketing: yeah . project manager: right . right . sorry about that . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: okay , so we 've got um the working design for i_d_ . for u_i_d_ the technical functions design . marketing , the user requirement specification . specific instructions will be sent to you by your person by your personal coach . so . are we all clear what objectives we 're looking to meet in the next thirty minutes ? industrial designer: project manager: and i guess i 'll try and write up some minutes of uh this meeting to uh to give it to you for the next meeting . industrial designer: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: 'kay , yes . user interface: i 'm not exactly clear on what we 're designing the rem remote for . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: is this a mun multi-functional one or do we decide that ourselves as we go away and work on it ? industrial designer: i think you just said at the start it was a television remote control , project manager: television remote control . industrial designer: so maybe we should just stick to that unless we get told otherwise . user interface: right . project manager: that 's true , 'cause during during the course of our day we might make decisions based on information or meetings that would change where we 're going . marketing: okay cool . project manager: but at this point in time i think you 're right that uh shall we make it just a tv . okay ? so we will depart . industrial designer: 'kay project manager: we will stay here and uh and break off . and i 'll do minutes and and we 'll see you in half and hour . industrial designer: okay , that 's great . user interface: okay . marketing: okay cheers . project manager: okay . right s

marketing suggested that they could devise a new system for the remote control , and make the remote into a miniature laptop . the reason for the occurrence of the idea is that there are already many kinds of cutting-edge remote controls in the market , and the multi-functional remote could control all sorts of appliances in the house .

what did industrial designer think of the idea of a multi-functional remote control when discussing the function of the remote ? </s> project manager: right , so start of the first meeting . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh . right , so agenda of the first meeting . where we uh we have twenty five minutes for this meeting . industrial designer: okay . project manager: we uh are to get acquainted . so does everyone want to say who they are ? that seem sensible ? marketing: yeah . i 'm robin . i 'm the marketing manager . user interface: i 'm louisa . i 'm the user interface designer . industrial designer: i 'm nick . i am the industrial designer . project manager: and i 'm alastair and i 'm the project leader . alright okay , so tool training . um . project plan . so does anyone have any uh thoughts as to the tool training that uh is required ? industrial designer: tool training user interface: i 'm not exactly sure what you mean by tool training . project manager: neither am i . user interface: marketing: project manager: oh i see , so we should n't really be oh right okay , so . so we have the project team , which is to um basically to come up with a new r remote control device . industrial designer: project manager: uh we have uh the starting base was the original which has been in existence now for a period of time . and uh our idea is to uh to make the new remote control device uh more user friendly than the previous one , and to to be trendier , to be with it , and therefore to uh to get a bigger market share and bigger audience . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so um method of doing this is uh split up as you can see into uh the functional design , the conceptional design , and the detailed design . so um in each of these uh phases we 'll uh basically be handing over to yourselves , the designers of this uh this device . industrial designer: yes . project manager: and uh having uh meetings so that we can uh during the course of the day um come up with a better better inst implement than we had before . and therefore um have a successful uh conclusion to the day . um and you 'll be doing uh various designs uh throughout the day to meet this end . marketing: mm-hmm , okay . project manager: so we 've got tool training . try out whiteboard . uh . so we will um . marketing: user interface: project manager: right so everyone 's to uh supposedly uh draw their favourite animal over on the white board over there . i guess this is uh make sure the whiteboard works . so uh i do n't know who wishes to go first . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: do you wish to go f have a first bash at uh whatever . user interface: i do n't mind . marketing: i dunno . user interface: um . project manager: ah uh . user interface: let 's see . marketing: user interface: good job i got pockets today . project manager: but now you you uh you 'll move out from the microphone and the camera . marketing: your microphone 's just project manager: i take it that user interface: are we supposed to do this right now , do you think , or ? project manager: i would i would guess so . or marketing: yeah . i do n't know . industrial designer: you 've lost uh your microphone there . project manager: technical problems . user interface: oh . right here we go . project manager: i mean you designers are meant to come up with these sort of things . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: project manager: user interface: okay . i think that i would have to say that my favourite animal is the cat . little smiley cat there . um and this would be because they 're very independent , uh they 're very intelligent , compared to dogs maybe . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: um and they can be very very affectionate . some people do n't think so but i know very affectionate cats . um . um and they can look after themselves . project manager: user interface: marketing: project manager: next . industrial designer: okay , yeah . i 'll i 'll user interface: shall i rub that out , actually ? project manager: i do n't see as there 's any need to . there 's plenty of space . industrial designer: project manager: i mean whatever . user interface: marketing: we can have have a whole menagerie . project manager: exactly . industrial designer: shall i see if i can get across without just tangling everything . okay . project manager: we 've had more time to prepare over this side , industrial designer: there 's one . project manager: so we 've all stuck our bits and pieces in our pockets . industrial designer: did n't think of that . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: 'kay uh project manager: the three pens are underneath . industrial designer: pens are over here . i 'll try the red pen . okay . um . i 'm gon na go for the bear which i 'm be able to draw very well , project manager: you get marks for artistic impression . industrial designer: but i 'll have a bash at it . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: uh . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: ooh ooh i lost it there . i think i 've just knocked the microphone . um . marketing: user interface: project manager: so you 're just doing the face . industrial designer: we 'll g then we 'll go for a a s small small bear . user interface: project manager: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: um and i like my animal that looks nothing like a bear because um i dunno maybe because there 's so many cartoon characters made up after the bear like the jungle book characters and stuff like that . project manager: industrial designer: great . marketing: right . hello . um i 'm gon na go for the dog , and i 'm gon na draw one badly as well . uh . looks like it 's going to be a dachshund or something . user interface: that 's quite good . industrial designer: marketing: right . there 's my dog . um i like dogs because they 're very loyal . and they 're always happy , so whenever whenever you 're feeling sort of a bit a bit down or tired , they 're always coming up and they 're always um quite excited . so um you can always have a lot of fun with a dog . and they 're also good for exercise as well . you can sorta get out and they they sorta never get tired . and and when they 're tired they 're quite cute as well , so . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: okay , that 's why i like dogs . project manager: right , um . well i 've not actually had too many pets uh over my uh time 'cause to be honest with you uh i 'm not too keen on them anyway . not to worry . so what my daughters have got at the moment is they 've got uh a few fish and so hopefully um wo n't prove too difficult to draw . uh user interface: project manager: as you can see that my artist artistic work is useless as well . marketing: project manager: anyway um . and uh one of the best uh things about fish is that they do n't really take uh too much looking after because uh with most of the animals if you 're going away on holiday or whatever , you 've got ta spend money or get a friend or whatever to look after them for you . whereas if you got fish , you just got ta put the food in a a a dripper feed which feeds them over the uh couple of weeks that you 're away and uh change the water every couple of months , and buy in a few plants , so . other than the fact that they keep dying , industrial designer: project manager: uh fish are uh are not are are are reasonable pets in that uh they 're low maintenance . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: great . project manager: right . okay , uh if we 're still all with us . right okay , so . work has been done on uh this uh project where by um twenty five euros is uh the uh expected uh selling price . that information has come from our marketing manager here . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: so we 're looking to sell internationally , not just in europe . we 're looking at um having our production costs limited to uh twelve and an half euro per unit . and therefore making a profit margin of uh well not actually a profit margin it 's uh because obviously you 're gon na have overheads and various other costs to uh take uh from uh from that to give you your profit margin per unit . and so depending what the uh the overhead uh costs are will determine uh how many units we 're uh looking to sell or projecting to sell at this point in time . industrial designer: project manager: so um experience with remote control , first ideas . new remote . so i guess we 're looking at um having a discussion at this point in time to help uh you um folks design our our new model as it were . industrial designer: yes . project manager: so uh any any thoughts ? industrial designer: um i with some remote controls the buttons were a little small so they 're quite hard to press so maybe we make something with uh easy to press buttons . as that is the main function . project manager: okay , so so basically we 're looking for some um we 're looking for a device that is um robust and and therefore uh wo n't get damaged too easily . industrial designer: yes . project manager: um we 're looking for a device that is uh what was the other things you said there ? industrial designer: um sort of easy to use so the buttons are accessible . project manager: easy to use . use . industrial designer: is easy to use and see . project manager: and see . industrial designer: yes . project manager: okay . uh . user interface: can i just check ? is this just a television remote ? because a lot of um systems are kind of tv video combined now , or tv d_v_d_ combined . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and one of the most annoying things is having like five remotes in the house . so if you 've got a combined system , it could be a combined remote . industrial designer: user interface: or is it just a television that we 're supposed to be doing ? marketing: mm . project manager: oh i w um basically i 'll get back to you on that . industrial designer: project manager: but it seems to me sensible , user interface: project manager: 'cause as you rightly said , there 's nothing more annoying than having three or four devices littered about the uh about the room . marketing: yeah . project manager: and uh user interface: project manager: so a device for for all remotes . industrial designer: sorry , you go . you go . marketing: i 've okay . yeah . um one of the things um we found from the market research is that people often get confused by the number of buttons on them as well . 'cause there 's quite often lots and lots . and um sometimes uh they sort of remote controls defeat their own purpose because you 're sat in the chair and the remote is somewhere else in the room . so whereas in the past you 'd have to get up to change the channel , now you have to get up to sort of pick up the remote . so so i do n't we need to sort of maybe think about how um we could maybe uh develop a remote control which moves around the room . industrial designer: user interface: comes to your whistle . project manager: hmm . marketing: that 's that 's maybe something for the future when you can talk to your television , but industrial designer: yeah . user interface: project manager: but is it in a sense it 's r um mutually exclusive . you ca n't have both the th the one device and then have few buttons on it to marketing: yeah . project manager: 'cause you want you want simplicity as well , you want any idiot to be able to use it . whilst at the same time you want , as you rightly said , one remote for all . marketing: yeah . project manager: and so these are probably mutually exclusive options marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yes . project manager: that uh marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: hmm you could argue that experience of using devices and similar devices as people get more and more used to using remotes , therefore they 're more with handling them , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: therefore you can make them more complicated as time goes on . industrial designer: maybe we could um have better instructions with the remote . or are we just doing the design of the remote control itself , or sort of the instructions that would come with it ? project manager: better instructions . marketing: yeah . i mean we 've done some research um about sort of you know what the cutting edge sort of hand held devices are , and a lot of them sort of use you know they 're like they 're like mini laptops . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so it 's possible that we could devise a system where where you 're you 're basically sort of holding a a miniature computer which is controlling all your your sort of your television , your stereo , and where you know if you buy a new thing then it sort of you can link it to that as well , maybe . project manager: okay . um well we 've got five minutes before the end of the meeting . so uh we have to uh start winding up . um is there next meeting in thirty minutes . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: okay . project manager: so um right , so we 've got i_d_ the come on , where 's my marketing: if you just click return it should be okay . it 'll get rid of the message . industrial designer: or not . project manager: marketing: if you hit just hit return and it should get rid of the message . project manager: oh there we go . marketing: oh you 've got . project manager: yeah . user interface: project manager: that 's what i was looking for . right . so we 've got function oh what happened to the user interface: i think that might be back to the start . um if you grab the kind of uh slide to the left and pull it down ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: slide four marketing: yeah . project manager: right . right . sorry about that . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: okay , so we 've got um the working design for i_d_ . for u_i_d_ the technical functions design . marketing , the user requirement specification . specific instructions will be sent to you by your person by your personal coach . so . are we all clear what objectives we 're looking to meet in the next thirty minutes ? industrial designer: project manager: and i guess i 'll try and write up some minutes of uh this meeting to uh to give it to you for the next meeting . industrial designer: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: 'kay , yes . user interface: i 'm not exactly clear on what we 're designing the rem remote for . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: is this a mun multi-functional one or do we decide that ourselves as we go away and work on it ? industrial designer: i think you just said at the start it was a television remote control , project manager: television remote control . industrial designer: so maybe we should just stick to that unless we get told otherwise . user interface: right . project manager: that 's true , 'cause during during the course of our day we might make decisions based on information or meetings that would change where we 're going . marketing: okay cool . project manager: but at this point in time i think you 're right that uh shall we make it just a tv . okay ? so we will depart . industrial designer: 'kay project manager: we will stay here and uh and break off . and i 'll do minutes and and we 'll see you in half and hour . industrial designer: okay , that 's great . user interface: okay . marketing: okay cheers . project manager: okay . right s

industrial designer thought that they should stick to the idea of traditional television remote control , instead of a multi-functional one .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> industrial designer: oops that 's as far as it goes . project manager: hi guys uh good morning everybody here . and uh i want to introduce myself , uh my name is uh shrida daseri and uh i 'm a project manager for this new project which we are going to discuss now . so i want to introduce first of all uh the names and the colleagues here . and what you 're uh drawing ? user interface: uh sure my name is agnes and i 'm an user usability user interface designer . marketing: my name is ed and i do accounting . project manager: uh how you spell your name uh ? marketing: e_d_ . project manager: e_d_ okay . marketing: mm . project manager: and ? industrial designer: do you also do marketing ? marketing: no . project manager: so only accounting ? okay . marketing: accounting , yes . project manager: and ? industrial designer: and i 'm christine , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and my role in this uh scenario is to be the industrial designer . project manager: industrial designer . industrial designer: but i 'm not really one . project manager: so who is uh marketing , nobody in the market marketing: marketing is uh , is me . project manager: it 's you , okay . so thanks for coming for the meeting first of all , and uh we have a long time , just twenty-five minutes to discuss about uh this project and the the project initiation . first of all i want to ask uh mister ed about your uh marketing plan and your product plan and uh marketing: well i think that we 'll see that throughout the day in how we 're going to put this together as a marketing to to market the product . we 'll have to see on a through discussion on where we 're gon na go from here and from with this . project manager: mm-hmm but uh do you already have like a functional design or a technical design or marketing: uh for the moment not yet . project manager: oh for the moment not yet , okay , but uh what 's what 's your uh do you have some project plan , something with you or marketing: good question . no , this is like i said that we have to be discussed between all of us and we 'll go from there . we 'll have to simply we 'll have to work on it together . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , so uh by when you think you can uh give me some kind of uh project plan , okay , a discussion with uh marketing: certainly by the next meeting . project manager: by next meeting , okay that will be great . uh okay , so there 's any questions or uh first of all about uh this project ? industrial designer: what is the goal of the project ? project manager: uh the goal of the project i think maybe i 'll uh hand out to the ed , okay , so to explain uh what is the project because he 's in the sales and the accounting . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: i 'm in the sales i 'm supposed to explain them what to do . we have to define exactly what our product is , from uh project manager: yes , so can you explain uh what exactly the product is ? marketing: from what i had in mind we 're supposed to be marketing coffee , is that right ? project manager: oh i think uh , if i 'm not wrong , we 're making the remote control . user interface: um i was wondering marketing: remote controls , 'cause i had two different things . i had a first part of mine was to make a remote control for a new f remote control for television , and afterward i had a discussion about coffee so project manager: yes . marketing: we 'll start with the remote control for television then . so we 're have to design something that is very user friendly . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: something uh visual that has something that will will draw people to buy the product , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: because i think everybody 's experienced with uh remote controls , and some remote controls are are worth uh throwing out the window . uh th most of them ar i do n't know we 're have to come up with a new idea on how to make it a lot easier to use , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause a lot of times uh spend uh half a day through the instruction book trying to figure out how to use it . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm . project manager: and uh what abo uh christine , what about your uh the industrial design plan ? are you have a design already on this product or uh you 're still working on the design ? industrial designer: um no , i i have not begun working on the design , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um i uh i actually did n't know we were designing a remote control , i thought we were designing a new monitor . um the website i went to look at had some announcements about an introduction of a um uh some sort of a seven inch um monitor , and um i understood that that was the project goal . so um i 'm glad i did n't d do any work um ahead of time because uh i clearly did n't understand the project goal . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um i just did s see that we were starting a new project together and there was going to be a four member team composed of these people , and um that 's about uh that 's project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and i i read through the different steps , and what my responsibilities were relative to the steps . project manager: so uh you 'll be leading the team for your design team or how many members is working in the team , for the design ? industrial designer: uh for the industrial design ? project manager: yes . industrial designer: um well , i would th think that depends on how much money you give us . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: that 's industrial designer: um because uh , you know , you can uh you can make it uh you have different choices with different financial models . project manager: yeah , but uh before we talk about uh the finance , okay , uh do you have some idea how we can uh sell this product or project in the market and how much is going to benefit to the company and uh of course it 's to the individual also . industrial designer: well , you know um , i kind of think that in general you have to do uh um y you have to have something that 's very fashionable , that 's uh very attractive that um people see and recognize uh its goal , and uh they immediately wan na have it uh have one of their own . so it would really would need to um something like the ipod would be good , seems to have caught on fairly well , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so um d uh you know , i do n't care what it does , just so it looks cool . project manager: okay , but uh uh when you think you can give me like a kind of design on the functional design or the technical design ? industrial designer: well , uh i 've got a lot of other projects i 'm doing right now um and so i 'll have to wait and see how those uh how those go . if they uh go quickly then uh it could be a month . if um if i run into any problems in my other projects it might be six months . project manager: yeah , but uh i need something in the writing , so like uh what 's your functional design , what 's your technical design , and uh how many people you need for this project , and what 's the time frame you 're looking , okay , and what is the budget , maybe uh initial budget you 're looking , okay , and uh how is going to the market , okay , industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: so you 've you 've had to meet with the marketing team and how they 're going to market and what are the marketing strategic plan , okay , when are you going to introduce , okay , and by the time you introduce the product and uh you know there there would be a competition , okay , so i need some kind of uh uh the plan in the writing from you . okay , and it 's po industrial designer: and when would you like that ? project manager: b as soon as possible . industrial designer: uh well if uh if we have enough time uh then d do you think um two weeks is a is close enough ? project manager: yes i think uh that would be good , because i need to go to the management and uh tell them what we are going to do , and uh what cost is , okay , and what 's the time frame and what 's the project plan , because uh without any uh documentations , i can not go to the management and say , so we are going to do this and we need this much money , okay , so then it 's it 's difficult for me to say , okay , that 's the reason i need uh some kind of plan from you , initially , okay , then we can have the further discussion again . industrial designer: uh are there other people who will be contributing to the plan ? project manager: yes , of course , if you need some help , uh so let me know . so , who are the people you need uh from the marketing or uh the technical side or uh the administration point of view , okay , to add in any documentation , or some technical point of view , industrial designer: project manager: so just let me know so i can uh coordinate all the teams . industrial designer: okay , i 'll get back to you on that . project manager: yes . thank you . okay . and uh ed uh so what 's what do you think about uh this uh project for the remote control and d do you have some already planned something for your marketing strategy or uh the sales strategy ? marketing: well not yet other than uh doing research and taking remote controls and looking what other companies have to do uh , what they 're building , their designs , their ideas , project manager: hmm . marketing: uh also have to pinpoint which market we 're gon na go into . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: it should be a fairly large market because uh the number of people that uh the competition , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: uh th i agree it has to be something it has to be something new , it has to be something that that draws people saying eh , i like this . whether it works or not , they have to first say i like this , i like the design , and then it 's got ta be simple to use . project manager: yes , so what i uh prefer maybe uh you need to interact uh more with the christine , okay , because you know what she is going to do it , okay , and you know how to sell it . okay , because uh she is doing the design , but you are the core because you are in the marketing , okay , marketing: yeah . project manager: so because you need to sell and you 're the responsible for the all the money , the finance , okay , tomorrow . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so , what i prefer , okay , so you need to interact with the christine more and uh within her team , okay , who is using the functional design or technical design , okay , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh you need to come up with some kind of plan , okay , how we are going to do the your sales plan , okay , th marketing: do we already have a cost limit on this , th an idea of how much uh we want to market this for , how much it 's gon na sell for , project manager: th that that 's marketing: that 's up that 's up to us to decide , eh ? project manager: yes , that 's you have to decide , okay , so the best thing is you uh both of uh the christine and you discuss with yourself , okay , and come up with the cost , and how we are going to compete in the market , okay , in the the technically , or in the sales wise , okay , the commercial wise , okay . then uh we have to design , okay , how long it will take the whole project , okay , how much is going to cost us , and how much we are going to benefit for the company . okay , of course it 's it 's uh of benefit for everybody individually . okay , so i think it 's uh maybe if we can uh give me some kind of your uh the sales plan , okay , including the technical what uh she 's going to talk to you within the team , okay , then it will help me to discuss with the management for further , okay , and put it in the the proper project plan . okay , and if you need uh any coordination in between uh compared to the maybe the some technical vendors or commercial vendors , okay , depends if you want to have some uh uh marketing plan or technical plan , okay , so you let me know . marketing: very good . project manager: okay , i can coordinate , marketing: very good . project manager: or maybe uh , you are my coordinator , am i right ? user interface: mm . project manager: between uh all the coor user interface: well , no , not exactly . i mean my job from what i understood was to look at the usability requirements and make sure that the product is usable , it 's acceptable to the people who are gon na use it and look at the best ways to do that . project manager: yeah . user interface: so i think i 'll have to interact with christine and discuss with her , so that she 's not designing something that my studies will show right off the bat that it 's not going to work , project manager: th christine , yeah . which is user interface: and so it 's sort of it 's a loop that feeds in , but i do n't think necessarily that i 'm in a coordinating position for it . project manager: yes . yeah , so basically you need to interact with christine more , okay , for the user acceptability , okay , and the testing , okay , user interface: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: then you will user interface: which will also feed into the marketing , project manager: yes . user interface: because depending on what users want , depends on how you sell it , what tag lines you attach to it , how you try to make it more attractive to users . project manager: yes . yeah . yeah . yeah . user interface: so i think all three groups will need to interact quite a bit . um , and then i guess build the plan based on all of that , because i think you need to take all the factors into account . project manager: yep . but what i request , okay , keep ed in the loop , okay , in between your uh meeting and christine meeting , because uh he should know what 's happening . user interface: yeah , of course . yeah , we can c_c_ him on any discussions or documents that are passed around . project manager: yes . okay and please please copy all the mails , okay , all the discussions to me , okay , so i need to submit to the management . user interface: sure . no problem . project manager: so any questions for uh time being ? industrial designer: marketing: no . user interface: so , the immediate next step is to start determining the functional design , or project manager: yes . user interface: okay . project manager: okay . to come up with the functional design and uh to discuss with ed , okay , and how it 's going to be work , and uh first of all with your user acceptance , okay , how it looks like and how it 's going to be work in the market , okay , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so then we can discuss about uh further things . so , we 'll meet when the we 'll discuss on the further meeting . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's okay ? thanks for coming . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: would you mind um at the conclusion of our meeting could could you send us a copy of your slides ? project manager: yes , i will . yes . user interface: mm-hmm , yeah , that would be useful . project manager: i 'll copy , uh le let us keep all the emails and all the copies , okay , share each other , okay , so you know everybody what 's happening , okay ? user interface: sure . project manager: and if anything you need anytime so please either you can call me , or just send me email , or uh just come and uh knock my door , okay , so i 'm available here . it 's good ? okay , thanks for coming and uh i wish you a nice time then . user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: thanks . project manager: okay , see you later . bye . user interface: thank you .

the team members met up for the first time to discuss the new remote control for the television . each member introduced themselves and agreed that the product should be designed to be user-friendly . industrial designer then proposed that the marketing plan is for the product to be fashionable and attractive . project manager listed several subjects in need of settlement before the further discussion , including functional design , time frame , budget , product introduction marketing strategic plan and benefits for the company as well as the individuals , before he suggested more interaction among teams .

what did the industrial designer propose about the marketing plan of the product ? </s> industrial designer: oops that 's as far as it goes . project manager: hi guys uh good morning everybody here . and uh i want to introduce myself , uh my name is uh shrida daseri and uh i 'm a project manager for this new project which we are going to discuss now . so i want to introduce first of all uh the names and the colleagues here . and what you 're uh drawing ? user interface: uh sure my name is agnes and i 'm an user usability user interface designer . marketing: my name is ed and i do accounting . project manager: uh how you spell your name uh ? marketing: e_d_ . project manager: e_d_ okay . marketing: mm . project manager: and ? industrial designer: do you also do marketing ? marketing: no . project manager: so only accounting ? okay . marketing: accounting , yes . project manager: and ? industrial designer: and i 'm christine , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and my role in this uh scenario is to be the industrial designer . project manager: industrial designer . industrial designer: but i 'm not really one . project manager: so who is uh marketing , nobody in the market marketing: marketing is uh , is me . project manager: it 's you , okay . so thanks for coming for the meeting first of all , and uh we have a long time , just twenty-five minutes to discuss about uh this project and the the project initiation . first of all i want to ask uh mister ed about your uh marketing plan and your product plan and uh marketing: well i think that we 'll see that throughout the day in how we 're going to put this together as a marketing to to market the product . we 'll have to see on a through discussion on where we 're gon na go from here and from with this . project manager: mm-hmm but uh do you already have like a functional design or a technical design or marketing: uh for the moment not yet . project manager: oh for the moment not yet , okay , but uh what 's what 's your uh do you have some project plan , something with you or marketing: good question . no , this is like i said that we have to be discussed between all of us and we 'll go from there . we 'll have to simply we 'll have to work on it together . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , so uh by when you think you can uh give me some kind of uh project plan , okay , a discussion with uh marketing: certainly by the next meeting . project manager: by next meeting , okay that will be great . uh okay , so there 's any questions or uh first of all about uh this project ? industrial designer: what is the goal of the project ? project manager: uh the goal of the project i think maybe i 'll uh hand out to the ed , okay , so to explain uh what is the project because he 's in the sales and the accounting . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: i 'm in the sales i 'm supposed to explain them what to do . we have to define exactly what our product is , from uh project manager: yes , so can you explain uh what exactly the product is ? marketing: from what i had in mind we 're supposed to be marketing coffee , is that right ? project manager: oh i think uh , if i 'm not wrong , we 're making the remote control . user interface: um i was wondering marketing: remote controls , 'cause i had two different things . i had a first part of mine was to make a remote control for a new f remote control for television , and afterward i had a discussion about coffee so project manager: yes . marketing: we 'll start with the remote control for television then . so we 're have to design something that is very user friendly . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: something uh visual that has something that will will draw people to buy the product , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: because i think everybody 's experienced with uh remote controls , and some remote controls are are worth uh throwing out the window . uh th most of them ar i do n't know we 're have to come up with a new idea on how to make it a lot easier to use , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause a lot of times uh spend uh half a day through the instruction book trying to figure out how to use it . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm . project manager: and uh what abo uh christine , what about your uh the industrial design plan ? are you have a design already on this product or uh you 're still working on the design ? industrial designer: um no , i i have not begun working on the design , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um i uh i actually did n't know we were designing a remote control , i thought we were designing a new monitor . um the website i went to look at had some announcements about an introduction of a um uh some sort of a seven inch um monitor , and um i understood that that was the project goal . so um i 'm glad i did n't d do any work um ahead of time because uh i clearly did n't understand the project goal . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um i just did s see that we were starting a new project together and there was going to be a four member team composed of these people , and um that 's about uh that 's project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and i i read through the different steps , and what my responsibilities were relative to the steps . project manager: so uh you 'll be leading the team for your design team or how many members is working in the team , for the design ? industrial designer: uh for the industrial design ? project manager: yes . industrial designer: um well , i would th think that depends on how much money you give us . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: that 's industrial designer: um because uh , you know , you can uh you can make it uh you have different choices with different financial models . project manager: yeah , but uh before we talk about uh the finance , okay , uh do you have some idea how we can uh sell this product or project in the market and how much is going to benefit to the company and uh of course it 's to the individual also . industrial designer: well , you know um , i kind of think that in general you have to do uh um y you have to have something that 's very fashionable , that 's uh very attractive that um people see and recognize uh its goal , and uh they immediately wan na have it uh have one of their own . so it would really would need to um something like the ipod would be good , seems to have caught on fairly well , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so um d uh you know , i do n't care what it does , just so it looks cool . project manager: okay , but uh uh when you think you can give me like a kind of design on the functional design or the technical design ? industrial designer: well , uh i 've got a lot of other projects i 'm doing right now um and so i 'll have to wait and see how those uh how those go . if they uh go quickly then uh it could be a month . if um if i run into any problems in my other projects it might be six months . project manager: yeah , but uh i need something in the writing , so like uh what 's your functional design , what 's your technical design , and uh how many people you need for this project , and what 's the time frame you 're looking , okay , and what is the budget , maybe uh initial budget you 're looking , okay , and uh how is going to the market , okay , industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: so you 've you 've had to meet with the marketing team and how they 're going to market and what are the marketing strategic plan , okay , when are you going to introduce , okay , and by the time you introduce the product and uh you know there there would be a competition , okay , so i need some kind of uh uh the plan in the writing from you . okay , and it 's po industrial designer: and when would you like that ? project manager: b as soon as possible . industrial designer: uh well if uh if we have enough time uh then d do you think um two weeks is a is close enough ? project manager: yes i think uh that would be good , because i need to go to the management and uh tell them what we are going to do , and uh what cost is , okay , and what 's the time frame and what 's the project plan , because uh without any uh documentations , i can not go to the management and say , so we are going to do this and we need this much money , okay , so then it 's it 's difficult for me to say , okay , that 's the reason i need uh some kind of plan from you , initially , okay , then we can have the further discussion again . industrial designer: uh are there other people who will be contributing to the plan ? project manager: yes , of course , if you need some help , uh so let me know . so , who are the people you need uh from the marketing or uh the technical side or uh the administration point of view , okay , to add in any documentation , or some technical point of view , industrial designer: project manager: so just let me know so i can uh coordinate all the teams . industrial designer: okay , i 'll get back to you on that . project manager: yes . thank you . okay . and uh ed uh so what 's what do you think about uh this uh project for the remote control and d do you have some already planned something for your marketing strategy or uh the sales strategy ? marketing: well not yet other than uh doing research and taking remote controls and looking what other companies have to do uh , what they 're building , their designs , their ideas , project manager: hmm . marketing: uh also have to pinpoint which market we 're gon na go into . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: it should be a fairly large market because uh the number of people that uh the competition , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: uh th i agree it has to be something it has to be something new , it has to be something that that draws people saying eh , i like this . whether it works or not , they have to first say i like this , i like the design , and then it 's got ta be simple to use . project manager: yes , so what i uh prefer maybe uh you need to interact uh more with the christine , okay , because you know what she is going to do it , okay , and you know how to sell it . okay , because uh she is doing the design , but you are the core because you are in the marketing , okay , marketing: yeah . project manager: so because you need to sell and you 're the responsible for the all the money , the finance , okay , tomorrow . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so , what i prefer , okay , so you need to interact with the christine more and uh within her team , okay , who is using the functional design or technical design , okay , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh you need to come up with some kind of plan , okay , how we are going to do the your sales plan , okay , th marketing: do we already have a cost limit on this , th an idea of how much uh we want to market this for , how much it 's gon na sell for , project manager: th that that 's marketing: that 's up that 's up to us to decide , eh ? project manager: yes , that 's you have to decide , okay , so the best thing is you uh both of uh the christine and you discuss with yourself , okay , and come up with the cost , and how we are going to compete in the market , okay , in the the technically , or in the sales wise , okay , the commercial wise , okay . then uh we have to design , okay , how long it will take the whole project , okay , how much is going to cost us , and how much we are going to benefit for the company . okay , of course it 's it 's uh of benefit for everybody individually . okay , so i think it 's uh maybe if we can uh give me some kind of your uh the sales plan , okay , including the technical what uh she 's going to talk to you within the team , okay , then it will help me to discuss with the management for further , okay , and put it in the the proper project plan . okay , and if you need uh any coordination in between uh compared to the maybe the some technical vendors or commercial vendors , okay , depends if you want to have some uh uh marketing plan or technical plan , okay , so you let me know . marketing: very good . project manager: okay , i can coordinate , marketing: very good . project manager: or maybe uh , you are my coordinator , am i right ? user interface: mm . project manager: between uh all the coor user interface: well , no , not exactly . i mean my job from what i understood was to look at the usability requirements and make sure that the product is usable , it 's acceptable to the people who are gon na use it and look at the best ways to do that . project manager: yeah . user interface: so i think i 'll have to interact with christine and discuss with her , so that she 's not designing something that my studies will show right off the bat that it 's not going to work , project manager: th christine , yeah . which is user interface: and so it 's sort of it 's a loop that feeds in , but i do n't think necessarily that i 'm in a coordinating position for it . project manager: yes . yeah , so basically you need to interact with christine more , okay , for the user acceptability , okay , and the testing , okay , user interface: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: then you will user interface: which will also feed into the marketing , project manager: yes . user interface: because depending on what users want , depends on how you sell it , what tag lines you attach to it , how you try to make it more attractive to users . project manager: yes . yeah . yeah . yeah . user interface: so i think all three groups will need to interact quite a bit . um , and then i guess build the plan based on all of that , because i think you need to take all the factors into account . project manager: yep . but what i request , okay , keep ed in the loop , okay , in between your uh meeting and christine meeting , because uh he should know what 's happening . user interface: yeah , of course . yeah , we can c_c_ him on any discussions or documents that are passed around . project manager: yes . okay and please please copy all the mails , okay , all the discussions to me , okay , so i need to submit to the management . user interface: sure . no problem . project manager: so any questions for uh time being ? industrial designer: marketing: no . user interface: so , the immediate next step is to start determining the functional design , or project manager: yes . user interface: okay . project manager: okay . to come up with the functional design and uh to discuss with ed , okay , and how it 's going to be work , and uh first of all with your user acceptance , okay , how it looks like and how it 's going to be work in the market , okay , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so then we can discuss about uh further things . so , we 'll meet when the we 'll discuss on the further meeting . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's okay ? thanks for coming . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: would you mind um at the conclusion of our meeting could could you send us a copy of your slides ? project manager: yes , i will . yes . user interface: mm-hmm , yeah , that would be useful . project manager: i 'll copy , uh le let us keep all the emails and all the copies , okay , share each other , okay , so you know everybody what 's happening , okay ? user interface: sure . project manager: and if anything you need anytime so please either you can call me , or just send me email , or uh just come and uh knock my door , okay , so i 'm available here . it 's good ? okay , thanks for coming and uh i wish you a nice time then . user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: thanks . project manager: okay , see you later . bye . user interface: thank you .

by taking the example of ipod , industrial designer believed that the remote control should be fashionable so that people can instantly recognize its value and have the urge to possess one .

what did the marketing recommend to do when discussing marketing strategy and why ? </s> industrial designer: oops that 's as far as it goes . project manager: hi guys uh good morning everybody here . and uh i want to introduce myself , uh my name is uh shrida daseri and uh i 'm a project manager for this new project which we are going to discuss now . so i want to introduce first of all uh the names and the colleagues here . and what you 're uh drawing ? user interface: uh sure my name is agnes and i 'm an user usability user interface designer . marketing: my name is ed and i do accounting . project manager: uh how you spell your name uh ? marketing: e_d_ . project manager: e_d_ okay . marketing: mm . project manager: and ? industrial designer: do you also do marketing ? marketing: no . project manager: so only accounting ? okay . marketing: accounting , yes . project manager: and ? industrial designer: and i 'm christine , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and my role in this uh scenario is to be the industrial designer . project manager: industrial designer . industrial designer: but i 'm not really one . project manager: so who is uh marketing , nobody in the market marketing: marketing is uh , is me . project manager: it 's you , okay . so thanks for coming for the meeting first of all , and uh we have a long time , just twenty-five minutes to discuss about uh this project and the the project initiation . first of all i want to ask uh mister ed about your uh marketing plan and your product plan and uh marketing: well i think that we 'll see that throughout the day in how we 're going to put this together as a marketing to to market the product . we 'll have to see on a through discussion on where we 're gon na go from here and from with this . project manager: mm-hmm but uh do you already have like a functional design or a technical design or marketing: uh for the moment not yet . project manager: oh for the moment not yet , okay , but uh what 's what 's your uh do you have some project plan , something with you or marketing: good question . no , this is like i said that we have to be discussed between all of us and we 'll go from there . we 'll have to simply we 'll have to work on it together . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , so uh by when you think you can uh give me some kind of uh project plan , okay , a discussion with uh marketing: certainly by the next meeting . project manager: by next meeting , okay that will be great . uh okay , so there 's any questions or uh first of all about uh this project ? industrial designer: what is the goal of the project ? project manager: uh the goal of the project i think maybe i 'll uh hand out to the ed , okay , so to explain uh what is the project because he 's in the sales and the accounting . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: i 'm in the sales i 'm supposed to explain them what to do . we have to define exactly what our product is , from uh project manager: yes , so can you explain uh what exactly the product is ? marketing: from what i had in mind we 're supposed to be marketing coffee , is that right ? project manager: oh i think uh , if i 'm not wrong , we 're making the remote control . user interface: um i was wondering marketing: remote controls , 'cause i had two different things . i had a first part of mine was to make a remote control for a new f remote control for television , and afterward i had a discussion about coffee so project manager: yes . marketing: we 'll start with the remote control for television then . so we 're have to design something that is very user friendly . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: something uh visual that has something that will will draw people to buy the product , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: because i think everybody 's experienced with uh remote controls , and some remote controls are are worth uh throwing out the window . uh th most of them ar i do n't know we 're have to come up with a new idea on how to make it a lot easier to use , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause a lot of times uh spend uh half a day through the instruction book trying to figure out how to use it . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm . project manager: and uh what abo uh christine , what about your uh the industrial design plan ? are you have a design already on this product or uh you 're still working on the design ? industrial designer: um no , i i have not begun working on the design , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um i uh i actually did n't know we were designing a remote control , i thought we were designing a new monitor . um the website i went to look at had some announcements about an introduction of a um uh some sort of a seven inch um monitor , and um i understood that that was the project goal . so um i 'm glad i did n't d do any work um ahead of time because uh i clearly did n't understand the project goal . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um i just did s see that we were starting a new project together and there was going to be a four member team composed of these people , and um that 's about uh that 's project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and i i read through the different steps , and what my responsibilities were relative to the steps . project manager: so uh you 'll be leading the team for your design team or how many members is working in the team , for the design ? industrial designer: uh for the industrial design ? project manager: yes . industrial designer: um well , i would th think that depends on how much money you give us . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: that 's industrial designer: um because uh , you know , you can uh you can make it uh you have different choices with different financial models . project manager: yeah , but uh before we talk about uh the finance , okay , uh do you have some idea how we can uh sell this product or project in the market and how much is going to benefit to the company and uh of course it 's to the individual also . industrial designer: well , you know um , i kind of think that in general you have to do uh um y you have to have something that 's very fashionable , that 's uh very attractive that um people see and recognize uh its goal , and uh they immediately wan na have it uh have one of their own . so it would really would need to um something like the ipod would be good , seems to have caught on fairly well , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so um d uh you know , i do n't care what it does , just so it looks cool . project manager: okay , but uh uh when you think you can give me like a kind of design on the functional design or the technical design ? industrial designer: well , uh i 've got a lot of other projects i 'm doing right now um and so i 'll have to wait and see how those uh how those go . if they uh go quickly then uh it could be a month . if um if i run into any problems in my other projects it might be six months . project manager: yeah , but uh i need something in the writing , so like uh what 's your functional design , what 's your technical design , and uh how many people you need for this project , and what 's the time frame you 're looking , okay , and what is the budget , maybe uh initial budget you 're looking , okay , and uh how is going to the market , okay , industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: so you 've you 've had to meet with the marketing team and how they 're going to market and what are the marketing strategic plan , okay , when are you going to introduce , okay , and by the time you introduce the product and uh you know there there would be a competition , okay , so i need some kind of uh uh the plan in the writing from you . okay , and it 's po industrial designer: and when would you like that ? project manager: b as soon as possible . industrial designer: uh well if uh if we have enough time uh then d do you think um two weeks is a is close enough ? project manager: yes i think uh that would be good , because i need to go to the management and uh tell them what we are going to do , and uh what cost is , okay , and what 's the time frame and what 's the project plan , because uh without any uh documentations , i can not go to the management and say , so we are going to do this and we need this much money , okay , so then it 's it 's difficult for me to say , okay , that 's the reason i need uh some kind of plan from you , initially , okay , then we can have the further discussion again . industrial designer: uh are there other people who will be contributing to the plan ? project manager: yes , of course , if you need some help , uh so let me know . so , who are the people you need uh from the marketing or uh the technical side or uh the administration point of view , okay , to add in any documentation , or some technical point of view , industrial designer: project manager: so just let me know so i can uh coordinate all the teams . industrial designer: okay , i 'll get back to you on that . project manager: yes . thank you . okay . and uh ed uh so what 's what do you think about uh this uh project for the remote control and d do you have some already planned something for your marketing strategy or uh the sales strategy ? marketing: well not yet other than uh doing research and taking remote controls and looking what other companies have to do uh , what they 're building , their designs , their ideas , project manager: hmm . marketing: uh also have to pinpoint which market we 're gon na go into . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: it should be a fairly large market because uh the number of people that uh the competition , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: uh th i agree it has to be something it has to be something new , it has to be something that that draws people saying eh , i like this . whether it works or not , they have to first say i like this , i like the design , and then it 's got ta be simple to use . project manager: yes , so what i uh prefer maybe uh you need to interact uh more with the christine , okay , because you know what she is going to do it , okay , and you know how to sell it . okay , because uh she is doing the design , but you are the core because you are in the marketing , okay , marketing: yeah . project manager: so because you need to sell and you 're the responsible for the all the money , the finance , okay , tomorrow . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so , what i prefer , okay , so you need to interact with the christine more and uh within her team , okay , who is using the functional design or technical design , okay , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh you need to come up with some kind of plan , okay , how we are going to do the your sales plan , okay , th marketing: do we already have a cost limit on this , th an idea of how much uh we want to market this for , how much it 's gon na sell for , project manager: th that that 's marketing: that 's up that 's up to us to decide , eh ? project manager: yes , that 's you have to decide , okay , so the best thing is you uh both of uh the christine and you discuss with yourself , okay , and come up with the cost , and how we are going to compete in the market , okay , in the the technically , or in the sales wise , okay , the commercial wise , okay . then uh we have to design , okay , how long it will take the whole project , okay , how much is going to cost us , and how much we are going to benefit for the company . okay , of course it 's it 's uh of benefit for everybody individually . okay , so i think it 's uh maybe if we can uh give me some kind of your uh the sales plan , okay , including the technical what uh she 's going to talk to you within the team , okay , then it will help me to discuss with the management for further , okay , and put it in the the proper project plan . okay , and if you need uh any coordination in between uh compared to the maybe the some technical vendors or commercial vendors , okay , depends if you want to have some uh uh marketing plan or technical plan , okay , so you let me know . marketing: very good . project manager: okay , i can coordinate , marketing: very good . project manager: or maybe uh , you are my coordinator , am i right ? user interface: mm . project manager: between uh all the coor user interface: well , no , not exactly . i mean my job from what i understood was to look at the usability requirements and make sure that the product is usable , it 's acceptable to the people who are gon na use it and look at the best ways to do that . project manager: yeah . user interface: so i think i 'll have to interact with christine and discuss with her , so that she 's not designing something that my studies will show right off the bat that it 's not going to work , project manager: th christine , yeah . which is user interface: and so it 's sort of it 's a loop that feeds in , but i do n't think necessarily that i 'm in a coordinating position for it . project manager: yes . yeah , so basically you need to interact with christine more , okay , for the user acceptability , okay , and the testing , okay , user interface: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: then you will user interface: which will also feed into the marketing , project manager: yes . user interface: because depending on what users want , depends on how you sell it , what tag lines you attach to it , how you try to make it more attractive to users . project manager: yes . yeah . yeah . yeah . user interface: so i think all three groups will need to interact quite a bit . um , and then i guess build the plan based on all of that , because i think you need to take all the factors into account . project manager: yep . but what i request , okay , keep ed in the loop , okay , in between your uh meeting and christine meeting , because uh he should know what 's happening . user interface: yeah , of course . yeah , we can c_c_ him on any discussions or documents that are passed around . project manager: yes . okay and please please copy all the mails , okay , all the discussions to me , okay , so i need to submit to the management . user interface: sure . no problem . project manager: so any questions for uh time being ? industrial designer: marketing: no . user interface: so , the immediate next step is to start determining the functional design , or project manager: yes . user interface: okay . project manager: okay . to come up with the functional design and uh to discuss with ed , okay , and how it 's going to be work , and uh first of all with your user acceptance , okay , how it looks like and how it 's going to be work in the market , okay , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so then we can discuss about uh further things . so , we 'll meet when the we 'll discuss on the further meeting . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's okay ? thanks for coming . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: would you mind um at the conclusion of our meeting could could you send us a copy of your slides ? project manager: yes , i will . yes . user interface: mm-hmm , yeah , that would be useful . project manager: i 'll copy , uh le let us keep all the emails and all the copies , okay , share each other , okay , so you know everybody what 's happening , okay ? user interface: sure . project manager: and if anything you need anytime so please either you can call me , or just send me email , or uh just come and uh knock my door , okay , so i 'm available here . it 's good ? okay , thanks for coming and uh i wish you a nice time then . user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: thanks . project manager: okay , see you later . bye . user interface: thank you .

by doing research on other companies ' design and ideas , marketing pointed out that the market the remote control aimed at should be a fairly large one and that the product itself should have a brand new , attractive design and be simple to use .

what did the marketing suggest about remote control style in terms of marketing strategy ? </s> industrial designer: oops that 's as far as it goes . project manager: hi guys uh good morning everybody here . and uh i want to introduce myself , uh my name is uh shrida daseri and uh i 'm a project manager for this new project which we are going to discuss now . so i want to introduce first of all uh the names and the colleagues here . and what you 're uh drawing ? user interface: uh sure my name is agnes and i 'm an user usability user interface designer . marketing: my name is ed and i do accounting . project manager: uh how you spell your name uh ? marketing: e_d_ . project manager: e_d_ okay . marketing: mm . project manager: and ? industrial designer: do you also do marketing ? marketing: no . project manager: so only accounting ? okay . marketing: accounting , yes . project manager: and ? industrial designer: and i 'm christine , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and my role in this uh scenario is to be the industrial designer . project manager: industrial designer . industrial designer: but i 'm not really one . project manager: so who is uh marketing , nobody in the market marketing: marketing is uh , is me . project manager: it 's you , okay . so thanks for coming for the meeting first of all , and uh we have a long time , just twenty-five minutes to discuss about uh this project and the the project initiation . first of all i want to ask uh mister ed about your uh marketing plan and your product plan and uh marketing: well i think that we 'll see that throughout the day in how we 're going to put this together as a marketing to to market the product . we 'll have to see on a through discussion on where we 're gon na go from here and from with this . project manager: mm-hmm but uh do you already have like a functional design or a technical design or marketing: uh for the moment not yet . project manager: oh for the moment not yet , okay , but uh what 's what 's your uh do you have some project plan , something with you or marketing: good question . no , this is like i said that we have to be discussed between all of us and we 'll go from there . we 'll have to simply we 'll have to work on it together . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , so uh by when you think you can uh give me some kind of uh project plan , okay , a discussion with uh marketing: certainly by the next meeting . project manager: by next meeting , okay that will be great . uh okay , so there 's any questions or uh first of all about uh this project ? industrial designer: what is the goal of the project ? project manager: uh the goal of the project i think maybe i 'll uh hand out to the ed , okay , so to explain uh what is the project because he 's in the sales and the accounting . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: i 'm in the sales i 'm supposed to explain them what to do . we have to define exactly what our product is , from uh project manager: yes , so can you explain uh what exactly the product is ? marketing: from what i had in mind we 're supposed to be marketing coffee , is that right ? project manager: oh i think uh , if i 'm not wrong , we 're making the remote control . user interface: um i was wondering marketing: remote controls , 'cause i had two different things . i had a first part of mine was to make a remote control for a new f remote control for television , and afterward i had a discussion about coffee so project manager: yes . marketing: we 'll start with the remote control for television then . so we 're have to design something that is very user friendly . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: something uh visual that has something that will will draw people to buy the product , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: because i think everybody 's experienced with uh remote controls , and some remote controls are are worth uh throwing out the window . uh th most of them ar i do n't know we 're have to come up with a new idea on how to make it a lot easier to use , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause a lot of times uh spend uh half a day through the instruction book trying to figure out how to use it . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm . project manager: and uh what abo uh christine , what about your uh the industrial design plan ? are you have a design already on this product or uh you 're still working on the design ? industrial designer: um no , i i have not begun working on the design , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um i uh i actually did n't know we were designing a remote control , i thought we were designing a new monitor . um the website i went to look at had some announcements about an introduction of a um uh some sort of a seven inch um monitor , and um i understood that that was the project goal . so um i 'm glad i did n't d do any work um ahead of time because uh i clearly did n't understand the project goal . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um i just did s see that we were starting a new project together and there was going to be a four member team composed of these people , and um that 's about uh that 's project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and i i read through the different steps , and what my responsibilities were relative to the steps . project manager: so uh you 'll be leading the team for your design team or how many members is working in the team , for the design ? industrial designer: uh for the industrial design ? project manager: yes . industrial designer: um well , i would th think that depends on how much money you give us . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: that 's industrial designer: um because uh , you know , you can uh you can make it uh you have different choices with different financial models . project manager: yeah , but uh before we talk about uh the finance , okay , uh do you have some idea how we can uh sell this product or project in the market and how much is going to benefit to the company and uh of course it 's to the individual also . industrial designer: well , you know um , i kind of think that in general you have to do uh um y you have to have something that 's very fashionable , that 's uh very attractive that um people see and recognize uh its goal , and uh they immediately wan na have it uh have one of their own . so it would really would need to um something like the ipod would be good , seems to have caught on fairly well , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so um d uh you know , i do n't care what it does , just so it looks cool . project manager: okay , but uh uh when you think you can give me like a kind of design on the functional design or the technical design ? industrial designer: well , uh i 've got a lot of other projects i 'm doing right now um and so i 'll have to wait and see how those uh how those go . if they uh go quickly then uh it could be a month . if um if i run into any problems in my other projects it might be six months . project manager: yeah , but uh i need something in the writing , so like uh what 's your functional design , what 's your technical design , and uh how many people you need for this project , and what 's the time frame you 're looking , okay , and what is the budget , maybe uh initial budget you 're looking , okay , and uh how is going to the market , okay , industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: so you 've you 've had to meet with the marketing team and how they 're going to market and what are the marketing strategic plan , okay , when are you going to introduce , okay , and by the time you introduce the product and uh you know there there would be a competition , okay , so i need some kind of uh uh the plan in the writing from you . okay , and it 's po industrial designer: and when would you like that ? project manager: b as soon as possible . industrial designer: uh well if uh if we have enough time uh then d do you think um two weeks is a is close enough ? project manager: yes i think uh that would be good , because i need to go to the management and uh tell them what we are going to do , and uh what cost is , okay , and what 's the time frame and what 's the project plan , because uh without any uh documentations , i can not go to the management and say , so we are going to do this and we need this much money , okay , so then it 's it 's difficult for me to say , okay , that 's the reason i need uh some kind of plan from you , initially , okay , then we can have the further discussion again . industrial designer: uh are there other people who will be contributing to the plan ? project manager: yes , of course , if you need some help , uh so let me know . so , who are the people you need uh from the marketing or uh the technical side or uh the administration point of view , okay , to add in any documentation , or some technical point of view , industrial designer: project manager: so just let me know so i can uh coordinate all the teams . industrial designer: okay , i 'll get back to you on that . project manager: yes . thank you . okay . and uh ed uh so what 's what do you think about uh this uh project for the remote control and d do you have some already planned something for your marketing strategy or uh the sales strategy ? marketing: well not yet other than uh doing research and taking remote controls and looking what other companies have to do uh , what they 're building , their designs , their ideas , project manager: hmm . marketing: uh also have to pinpoint which market we 're gon na go into . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: it should be a fairly large market because uh the number of people that uh the competition , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: uh th i agree it has to be something it has to be something new , it has to be something that that draws people saying eh , i like this . whether it works or not , they have to first say i like this , i like the design , and then it 's got ta be simple to use . project manager: yes , so what i uh prefer maybe uh you need to interact uh more with the christine , okay , because you know what she is going to do it , okay , and you know how to sell it . okay , because uh she is doing the design , but you are the core because you are in the marketing , okay , marketing: yeah . project manager: so because you need to sell and you 're the responsible for the all the money , the finance , okay , tomorrow . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so , what i prefer , okay , so you need to interact with the christine more and uh within her team , okay , who is using the functional design or technical design , okay , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh you need to come up with some kind of plan , okay , how we are going to do the your sales plan , okay , th marketing: do we already have a cost limit on this , th an idea of how much uh we want to market this for , how much it 's gon na sell for , project manager: th that that 's marketing: that 's up that 's up to us to decide , eh ? project manager: yes , that 's you have to decide , okay , so the best thing is you uh both of uh the christine and you discuss with yourself , okay , and come up with the cost , and how we are going to compete in the market , okay , in the the technically , or in the sales wise , okay , the commercial wise , okay . then uh we have to design , okay , how long it will take the whole project , okay , how much is going to cost us , and how much we are going to benefit for the company . okay , of course it 's it 's uh of benefit for everybody individually . okay , so i think it 's uh maybe if we can uh give me some kind of your uh the sales plan , okay , including the technical what uh she 's going to talk to you within the team , okay , then it will help me to discuss with the management for further , okay , and put it in the the proper project plan . okay , and if you need uh any coordination in between uh compared to the maybe the some technical vendors or commercial vendors , okay , depends if you want to have some uh uh marketing plan or technical plan , okay , so you let me know . marketing: very good . project manager: okay , i can coordinate , marketing: very good . project manager: or maybe uh , you are my coordinator , am i right ? user interface: mm . project manager: between uh all the coor user interface: well , no , not exactly . i mean my job from what i understood was to look at the usability requirements and make sure that the product is usable , it 's acceptable to the people who are gon na use it and look at the best ways to do that . project manager: yeah . user interface: so i think i 'll have to interact with christine and discuss with her , so that she 's not designing something that my studies will show right off the bat that it 's not going to work , project manager: th christine , yeah . which is user interface: and so it 's sort of it 's a loop that feeds in , but i do n't think necessarily that i 'm in a coordinating position for it . project manager: yes . yeah , so basically you need to interact with christine more , okay , for the user acceptability , okay , and the testing , okay , user interface: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: then you will user interface: which will also feed into the marketing , project manager: yes . user interface: because depending on what users want , depends on how you sell it , what tag lines you attach to it , how you try to make it more attractive to users . project manager: yes . yeah . yeah . yeah . user interface: so i think all three groups will need to interact quite a bit . um , and then i guess build the plan based on all of that , because i think you need to take all the factors into account . project manager: yep . but what i request , okay , keep ed in the loop , okay , in between your uh meeting and christine meeting , because uh he should know what 's happening . user interface: yeah , of course . yeah , we can c_c_ him on any discussions or documents that are passed around . project manager: yes . okay and please please copy all the mails , okay , all the discussions to me , okay , so i need to submit to the management . user interface: sure . no problem . project manager: so any questions for uh time being ? industrial designer: marketing: no . user interface: so , the immediate next step is to start determining the functional design , or project manager: yes . user interface: okay . project manager: okay . to come up with the functional design and uh to discuss with ed , okay , and how it 's going to be work , and uh first of all with your user acceptance , okay , how it looks like and how it 's going to be work in the market , okay , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so then we can discuss about uh further things . so , we 'll meet when the we 'll discuss on the further meeting . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's okay ? thanks for coming . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: would you mind um at the conclusion of our meeting could could you send us a copy of your slides ? project manager: yes , i will . yes . user interface: mm-hmm , yeah , that would be useful . project manager: i 'll copy , uh le let us keep all the emails and all the copies , okay , share each other , okay , so you know everybody what 's happening , okay ? user interface: sure . project manager: and if anything you need anytime so please either you can call me , or just send me email , or uh just come and uh knock my door , okay , so i 'm available here . it 's good ? okay , thanks for coming and uh i wish you a nice time then . user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: thanks . project manager: okay , see you later . bye . user interface: thank you .

marketing pointed out that the remote control for television should be user-friendly , with a visual feature to draw the attention of customers and that new ideas should be put into thought on facilitating its usage , so that users could avoid spending too much time on the instruction menu .

what did the project manager propose in the discussion of project initiation ? </s> industrial designer: oops that 's as far as it goes . project manager: hi guys uh good morning everybody here . and uh i want to introduce myself , uh my name is uh shrida daseri and uh i 'm a project manager for this new project which we are going to discuss now . so i want to introduce first of all uh the names and the colleagues here . and what you 're uh drawing ? user interface: uh sure my name is agnes and i 'm an user usability user interface designer . marketing: my name is ed and i do accounting . project manager: uh how you spell your name uh ? marketing: e_d_ . project manager: e_d_ okay . marketing: mm . project manager: and ? industrial designer: do you also do marketing ? marketing: no . project manager: so only accounting ? okay . marketing: accounting , yes . project manager: and ? industrial designer: and i 'm christine , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and my role in this uh scenario is to be the industrial designer . project manager: industrial designer . industrial designer: but i 'm not really one . project manager: so who is uh marketing , nobody in the market marketing: marketing is uh , is me . project manager: it 's you , okay . so thanks for coming for the meeting first of all , and uh we have a long time , just twenty-five minutes to discuss about uh this project and the the project initiation . first of all i want to ask uh mister ed about your uh marketing plan and your product plan and uh marketing: well i think that we 'll see that throughout the day in how we 're going to put this together as a marketing to to market the product . we 'll have to see on a through discussion on where we 're gon na go from here and from with this . project manager: mm-hmm but uh do you already have like a functional design or a technical design or marketing: uh for the moment not yet . project manager: oh for the moment not yet , okay , but uh what 's what 's your uh do you have some project plan , something with you or marketing: good question . no , this is like i said that we have to be discussed between all of us and we 'll go from there . we 'll have to simply we 'll have to work on it together . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , so uh by when you think you can uh give me some kind of uh project plan , okay , a discussion with uh marketing: certainly by the next meeting . project manager: by next meeting , okay that will be great . uh okay , so there 's any questions or uh first of all about uh this project ? industrial designer: what is the goal of the project ? project manager: uh the goal of the project i think maybe i 'll uh hand out to the ed , okay , so to explain uh what is the project because he 's in the sales and the accounting . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: i 'm in the sales i 'm supposed to explain them what to do . we have to define exactly what our product is , from uh project manager: yes , so can you explain uh what exactly the product is ? marketing: from what i had in mind we 're supposed to be marketing coffee , is that right ? project manager: oh i think uh , if i 'm not wrong , we 're making the remote control . user interface: um i was wondering marketing: remote controls , 'cause i had two different things . i had a first part of mine was to make a remote control for a new f remote control for television , and afterward i had a discussion about coffee so project manager: yes . marketing: we 'll start with the remote control for television then . so we 're have to design something that is very user friendly . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: something uh visual that has something that will will draw people to buy the product , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: because i think everybody 's experienced with uh remote controls , and some remote controls are are worth uh throwing out the window . uh th most of them ar i do n't know we 're have to come up with a new idea on how to make it a lot easier to use , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause a lot of times uh spend uh half a day through the instruction book trying to figure out how to use it . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm . project manager: and uh what abo uh christine , what about your uh the industrial design plan ? are you have a design already on this product or uh you 're still working on the design ? industrial designer: um no , i i have not begun working on the design , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um i uh i actually did n't know we were designing a remote control , i thought we were designing a new monitor . um the website i went to look at had some announcements about an introduction of a um uh some sort of a seven inch um monitor , and um i understood that that was the project goal . so um i 'm glad i did n't d do any work um ahead of time because uh i clearly did n't understand the project goal . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um i just did s see that we were starting a new project together and there was going to be a four member team composed of these people , and um that 's about uh that 's project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and i i read through the different steps , and what my responsibilities were relative to the steps . project manager: so uh you 'll be leading the team for your design team or how many members is working in the team , for the design ? industrial designer: uh for the industrial design ? project manager: yes . industrial designer: um well , i would th think that depends on how much money you give us . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: that 's industrial designer: um because uh , you know , you can uh you can make it uh you have different choices with different financial models . project manager: yeah , but uh before we talk about uh the finance , okay , uh do you have some idea how we can uh sell this product or project in the market and how much is going to benefit to the company and uh of course it 's to the individual also . industrial designer: well , you know um , i kind of think that in general you have to do uh um y you have to have something that 's very fashionable , that 's uh very attractive that um people see and recognize uh its goal , and uh they immediately wan na have it uh have one of their own . so it would really would need to um something like the ipod would be good , seems to have caught on fairly well , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so um d uh you know , i do n't care what it does , just so it looks cool . project manager: okay , but uh uh when you think you can give me like a kind of design on the functional design or the technical design ? industrial designer: well , uh i 've got a lot of other projects i 'm doing right now um and so i 'll have to wait and see how those uh how those go . if they uh go quickly then uh it could be a month . if um if i run into any problems in my other projects it might be six months . project manager: yeah , but uh i need something in the writing , so like uh what 's your functional design , what 's your technical design , and uh how many people you need for this project , and what 's the time frame you 're looking , okay , and what is the budget , maybe uh initial budget you 're looking , okay , and uh how is going to the market , okay , industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: so you 've you 've had to meet with the marketing team and how they 're going to market and what are the marketing strategic plan , okay , when are you going to introduce , okay , and by the time you introduce the product and uh you know there there would be a competition , okay , so i need some kind of uh uh the plan in the writing from you . okay , and it 's po industrial designer: and when would you like that ? project manager: b as soon as possible . industrial designer: uh well if uh if we have enough time uh then d do you think um two weeks is a is close enough ? project manager: yes i think uh that would be good , because i need to go to the management and uh tell them what we are going to do , and uh what cost is , okay , and what 's the time frame and what 's the project plan , because uh without any uh documentations , i can not go to the management and say , so we are going to do this and we need this much money , okay , so then it 's it 's difficult for me to say , okay , that 's the reason i need uh some kind of plan from you , initially , okay , then we can have the further discussion again . industrial designer: uh are there other people who will be contributing to the plan ? project manager: yes , of course , if you need some help , uh so let me know . so , who are the people you need uh from the marketing or uh the technical side or uh the administration point of view , okay , to add in any documentation , or some technical point of view , industrial designer: project manager: so just let me know so i can uh coordinate all the teams . industrial designer: okay , i 'll get back to you on that . project manager: yes . thank you . okay . and uh ed uh so what 's what do you think about uh this uh project for the remote control and d do you have some already planned something for your marketing strategy or uh the sales strategy ? marketing: well not yet other than uh doing research and taking remote controls and looking what other companies have to do uh , what they 're building , their designs , their ideas , project manager: hmm . marketing: uh also have to pinpoint which market we 're gon na go into . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: it should be a fairly large market because uh the number of people that uh the competition , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: uh th i agree it has to be something it has to be something new , it has to be something that that draws people saying eh , i like this . whether it works or not , they have to first say i like this , i like the design , and then it 's got ta be simple to use . project manager: yes , so what i uh prefer maybe uh you need to interact uh more with the christine , okay , because you know what she is going to do it , okay , and you know how to sell it . okay , because uh she is doing the design , but you are the core because you are in the marketing , okay , marketing: yeah . project manager: so because you need to sell and you 're the responsible for the all the money , the finance , okay , tomorrow . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so , what i prefer , okay , so you need to interact with the christine more and uh within her team , okay , who is using the functional design or technical design , okay , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh you need to come up with some kind of plan , okay , how we are going to do the your sales plan , okay , th marketing: do we already have a cost limit on this , th an idea of how much uh we want to market this for , how much it 's gon na sell for , project manager: th that that 's marketing: that 's up that 's up to us to decide , eh ? project manager: yes , that 's you have to decide , okay , so the best thing is you uh both of uh the christine and you discuss with yourself , okay , and come up with the cost , and how we are going to compete in the market , okay , in the the technically , or in the sales wise , okay , the commercial wise , okay . then uh we have to design , okay , how long it will take the whole project , okay , how much is going to cost us , and how much we are going to benefit for the company . okay , of course it 's it 's uh of benefit for everybody individually . okay , so i think it 's uh maybe if we can uh give me some kind of your uh the sales plan , okay , including the technical what uh she 's going to talk to you within the team , okay , then it will help me to discuss with the management for further , okay , and put it in the the proper project plan . okay , and if you need uh any coordination in between uh compared to the maybe the some technical vendors or commercial vendors , okay , depends if you want to have some uh uh marketing plan or technical plan , okay , so you let me know . marketing: very good . project manager: okay , i can coordinate , marketing: very good . project manager: or maybe uh , you are my coordinator , am i right ? user interface: mm . project manager: between uh all the coor user interface: well , no , not exactly . i mean my job from what i understood was to look at the usability requirements and make sure that the product is usable , it 's acceptable to the people who are gon na use it and look at the best ways to do that . project manager: yeah . user interface: so i think i 'll have to interact with christine and discuss with her , so that she 's not designing something that my studies will show right off the bat that it 's not going to work , project manager: th christine , yeah . which is user interface: and so it 's sort of it 's a loop that feeds in , but i do n't think necessarily that i 'm in a coordinating position for it . project manager: yes . yeah , so basically you need to interact with christine more , okay , for the user acceptability , okay , and the testing , okay , user interface: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: then you will user interface: which will also feed into the marketing , project manager: yes . user interface: because depending on what users want , depends on how you sell it , what tag lines you attach to it , how you try to make it more attractive to users . project manager: yes . yeah . yeah . yeah . user interface: so i think all three groups will need to interact quite a bit . um , and then i guess build the plan based on all of that , because i think you need to take all the factors into account . project manager: yep . but what i request , okay , keep ed in the loop , okay , in between your uh meeting and christine meeting , because uh he should know what 's happening . user interface: yeah , of course . yeah , we can c_c_ him on any discussions or documents that are passed around . project manager: yes . okay and please please copy all the mails , okay , all the discussions to me , okay , so i need to submit to the management . user interface: sure . no problem . project manager: so any questions for uh time being ? industrial designer: marketing: no . user interface: so , the immediate next step is to start determining the functional design , or project manager: yes . user interface: okay . project manager: okay . to come up with the functional design and uh to discuss with ed , okay , and how it 's going to be work , and uh first of all with your user acceptance , okay , how it looks like and how it 's going to be work in the market , okay , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so then we can discuss about uh further things . so , we 'll meet when the we 'll discuss on the further meeting . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's okay ? thanks for coming . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: would you mind um at the conclusion of our meeting could could you send us a copy of your slides ? project manager: yes , i will . yes . user interface: mm-hmm , yeah , that would be useful . project manager: i 'll copy , uh le let us keep all the emails and all the copies , okay , share each other , okay , so you know everybody what 's happening , okay ? user interface: sure . project manager: and if anything you need anytime so please either you can call me , or just send me email , or uh just come and uh knock my door , okay , so i 'm available here . it 's good ? okay , thanks for coming and uh i wish you a nice time then . user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: thanks . project manager: okay , see you later . bye . user interface: thank you .

project manager needed the following subjects to be presented in writing form , including functional and technical design , team scale , timeline , initial budget , cost limit , marketing strategic plan , product introduction , benefits for the company and for each individual . these matters should be determined before further discussion .

for what reason did the project manager insist that the discussion of project initiation should be kept in writing form ? </s> industrial designer: oops that 's as far as it goes . project manager: hi guys uh good morning everybody here . and uh i want to introduce myself , uh my name is uh shrida daseri and uh i 'm a project manager for this new project which we are going to discuss now . so i want to introduce first of all uh the names and the colleagues here . and what you 're uh drawing ? user interface: uh sure my name is agnes and i 'm an user usability user interface designer . marketing: my name is ed and i do accounting . project manager: uh how you spell your name uh ? marketing: e_d_ . project manager: e_d_ okay . marketing: mm . project manager: and ? industrial designer: do you also do marketing ? marketing: no . project manager: so only accounting ? okay . marketing: accounting , yes . project manager: and ? industrial designer: and i 'm christine , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and my role in this uh scenario is to be the industrial designer . project manager: industrial designer . industrial designer: but i 'm not really one . project manager: so who is uh marketing , nobody in the market marketing: marketing is uh , is me . project manager: it 's you , okay . so thanks for coming for the meeting first of all , and uh we have a long time , just twenty-five minutes to discuss about uh this project and the the project initiation . first of all i want to ask uh mister ed about your uh marketing plan and your product plan and uh marketing: well i think that we 'll see that throughout the day in how we 're going to put this together as a marketing to to market the product . we 'll have to see on a through discussion on where we 're gon na go from here and from with this . project manager: mm-hmm but uh do you already have like a functional design or a technical design or marketing: uh for the moment not yet . project manager: oh for the moment not yet , okay , but uh what 's what 's your uh do you have some project plan , something with you or marketing: good question . no , this is like i said that we have to be discussed between all of us and we 'll go from there . we 'll have to simply we 'll have to work on it together . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , so uh by when you think you can uh give me some kind of uh project plan , okay , a discussion with uh marketing: certainly by the next meeting . project manager: by next meeting , okay that will be great . uh okay , so there 's any questions or uh first of all about uh this project ? industrial designer: what is the goal of the project ? project manager: uh the goal of the project i think maybe i 'll uh hand out to the ed , okay , so to explain uh what is the project because he 's in the sales and the accounting . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: i 'm in the sales i 'm supposed to explain them what to do . we have to define exactly what our product is , from uh project manager: yes , so can you explain uh what exactly the product is ? marketing: from what i had in mind we 're supposed to be marketing coffee , is that right ? project manager: oh i think uh , if i 'm not wrong , we 're making the remote control . user interface: um i was wondering marketing: remote controls , 'cause i had two different things . i had a first part of mine was to make a remote control for a new f remote control for television , and afterward i had a discussion about coffee so project manager: yes . marketing: we 'll start with the remote control for television then . so we 're have to design something that is very user friendly . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: something uh visual that has something that will will draw people to buy the product , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: because i think everybody 's experienced with uh remote controls , and some remote controls are are worth uh throwing out the window . uh th most of them ar i do n't know we 're have to come up with a new idea on how to make it a lot easier to use , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause a lot of times uh spend uh half a day through the instruction book trying to figure out how to use it . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm . project manager: and uh what abo uh christine , what about your uh the industrial design plan ? are you have a design already on this product or uh you 're still working on the design ? industrial designer: um no , i i have not begun working on the design , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um i uh i actually did n't know we were designing a remote control , i thought we were designing a new monitor . um the website i went to look at had some announcements about an introduction of a um uh some sort of a seven inch um monitor , and um i understood that that was the project goal . so um i 'm glad i did n't d do any work um ahead of time because uh i clearly did n't understand the project goal . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um i just did s see that we were starting a new project together and there was going to be a four member team composed of these people , and um that 's about uh that 's project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and i i read through the different steps , and what my responsibilities were relative to the steps . project manager: so uh you 'll be leading the team for your design team or how many members is working in the team , for the design ? industrial designer: uh for the industrial design ? project manager: yes . industrial designer: um well , i would th think that depends on how much money you give us . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: that 's industrial designer: um because uh , you know , you can uh you can make it uh you have different choices with different financial models . project manager: yeah , but uh before we talk about uh the finance , okay , uh do you have some idea how we can uh sell this product or project in the market and how much is going to benefit to the company and uh of course it 's to the individual also . industrial designer: well , you know um , i kind of think that in general you have to do uh um y you have to have something that 's very fashionable , that 's uh very attractive that um people see and recognize uh its goal , and uh they immediately wan na have it uh have one of their own . so it would really would need to um something like the ipod would be good , seems to have caught on fairly well , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so um d uh you know , i do n't care what it does , just so it looks cool . project manager: okay , but uh uh when you think you can give me like a kind of design on the functional design or the technical design ? industrial designer: well , uh i 've got a lot of other projects i 'm doing right now um and so i 'll have to wait and see how those uh how those go . if they uh go quickly then uh it could be a month . if um if i run into any problems in my other projects it might be six months . project manager: yeah , but uh i need something in the writing , so like uh what 's your functional design , what 's your technical design , and uh how many people you need for this project , and what 's the time frame you 're looking , okay , and what is the budget , maybe uh initial budget you 're looking , okay , and uh how is going to the market , okay , industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: so you 've you 've had to meet with the marketing team and how they 're going to market and what are the marketing strategic plan , okay , when are you going to introduce , okay , and by the time you introduce the product and uh you know there there would be a competition , okay , so i need some kind of uh uh the plan in the writing from you . okay , and it 's po industrial designer: and when would you like that ? project manager: b as soon as possible . industrial designer: uh well if uh if we have enough time uh then d do you think um two weeks is a is close enough ? project manager: yes i think uh that would be good , because i need to go to the management and uh tell them what we are going to do , and uh what cost is , okay , and what 's the time frame and what 's the project plan , because uh without any uh documentations , i can not go to the management and say , so we are going to do this and we need this much money , okay , so then it 's it 's difficult for me to say , okay , that 's the reason i need uh some kind of plan from you , initially , okay , then we can have the further discussion again . industrial designer: uh are there other people who will be contributing to the plan ? project manager: yes , of course , if you need some help , uh so let me know . so , who are the people you need uh from the marketing or uh the technical side or uh the administration point of view , okay , to add in any documentation , or some technical point of view , industrial designer: project manager: so just let me know so i can uh coordinate all the teams . industrial designer: okay , i 'll get back to you on that . project manager: yes . thank you . okay . and uh ed uh so what 's what do you think about uh this uh project for the remote control and d do you have some already planned something for your marketing strategy or uh the sales strategy ? marketing: well not yet other than uh doing research and taking remote controls and looking what other companies have to do uh , what they 're building , their designs , their ideas , project manager: hmm . marketing: uh also have to pinpoint which market we 're gon na go into . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: it should be a fairly large market because uh the number of people that uh the competition , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: uh th i agree it has to be something it has to be something new , it has to be something that that draws people saying eh , i like this . whether it works or not , they have to first say i like this , i like the design , and then it 's got ta be simple to use . project manager: yes , so what i uh prefer maybe uh you need to interact uh more with the christine , okay , because you know what she is going to do it , okay , and you know how to sell it . okay , because uh she is doing the design , but you are the core because you are in the marketing , okay , marketing: yeah . project manager: so because you need to sell and you 're the responsible for the all the money , the finance , okay , tomorrow . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so , what i prefer , okay , so you need to interact with the christine more and uh within her team , okay , who is using the functional design or technical design , okay , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh you need to come up with some kind of plan , okay , how we are going to do the your sales plan , okay , th marketing: do we already have a cost limit on this , th an idea of how much uh we want to market this for , how much it 's gon na sell for , project manager: th that that 's marketing: that 's up that 's up to us to decide , eh ? project manager: yes , that 's you have to decide , okay , so the best thing is you uh both of uh the christine and you discuss with yourself , okay , and come up with the cost , and how we are going to compete in the market , okay , in the the technically , or in the sales wise , okay , the commercial wise , okay . then uh we have to design , okay , how long it will take the whole project , okay , how much is going to cost us , and how much we are going to benefit for the company . okay , of course it 's it 's uh of benefit for everybody individually . okay , so i think it 's uh maybe if we can uh give me some kind of your uh the sales plan , okay , including the technical what uh she 's going to talk to you within the team , okay , then it will help me to discuss with the management for further , okay , and put it in the the proper project plan . okay , and if you need uh any coordination in between uh compared to the maybe the some technical vendors or commercial vendors , okay , depends if you want to have some uh uh marketing plan or technical plan , okay , so you let me know . marketing: very good . project manager: okay , i can coordinate , marketing: very good . project manager: or maybe uh , you are my coordinator , am i right ? user interface: mm . project manager: between uh all the coor user interface: well , no , not exactly . i mean my job from what i understood was to look at the usability requirements and make sure that the product is usable , it 's acceptable to the people who are gon na use it and look at the best ways to do that . project manager: yeah . user interface: so i think i 'll have to interact with christine and discuss with her , so that she 's not designing something that my studies will show right off the bat that it 's not going to work , project manager: th christine , yeah . which is user interface: and so it 's sort of it 's a loop that feeds in , but i do n't think necessarily that i 'm in a coordinating position for it . project manager: yes . yeah , so basically you need to interact with christine more , okay , for the user acceptability , okay , and the testing , okay , user interface: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: then you will user interface: which will also feed into the marketing , project manager: yes . user interface: because depending on what users want , depends on how you sell it , what tag lines you attach to it , how you try to make it more attractive to users . project manager: yes . yeah . yeah . yeah . user interface: so i think all three groups will need to interact quite a bit . um , and then i guess build the plan based on all of that , because i think you need to take all the factors into account . project manager: yep . but what i request , okay , keep ed in the loop , okay , in between your uh meeting and christine meeting , because uh he should know what 's happening . user interface: yeah , of course . yeah , we can c_c_ him on any discussions or documents that are passed around . project manager: yes . okay and please please copy all the mails , okay , all the discussions to me , okay , so i need to submit to the management . user interface: sure . no problem . project manager: so any questions for uh time being ? industrial designer: marketing: no . user interface: so , the immediate next step is to start determining the functional design , or project manager: yes . user interface: okay . project manager: okay . to come up with the functional design and uh to discuss with ed , okay , and how it 's going to be work , and uh first of all with your user acceptance , okay , how it looks like and how it 's going to be work in the market , okay , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so then we can discuss about uh further things . so , we 'll meet when the we 'll discuss on the further meeting . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's okay ? thanks for coming . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: would you mind um at the conclusion of our meeting could could you send us a copy of your slides ? project manager: yes , i will . yes . user interface: mm-hmm , yeah , that would be useful . project manager: i 'll copy , uh le let us keep all the emails and all the copies , okay , share each other , okay , so you know everybody what 's happening , okay ? user interface: sure . project manager: and if anything you need anytime so please either you can call me , or just send me email , or uh just come and uh knock my door , okay , so i 'm available here . it 's good ? okay , thanks for coming and uh i wish you a nice time then . user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: thanks . project manager: okay , see you later . bye . user interface: thank you .

because by the time the industrial designer introduced his product in a more thorough way , there would be a competition . moreover , project manager made this request so that he could submit the documentation to the management . he hopes , in addition , that all the emails or other copies of discussions could be kept so that each member could be informed about the project proceeding .

what did the project manager suggest about team coordination during the process of project initiation ? </s> industrial designer: oops that 's as far as it goes . project manager: hi guys uh good morning everybody here . and uh i want to introduce myself , uh my name is uh shrida daseri and uh i 'm a project manager for this new project which we are going to discuss now . so i want to introduce first of all uh the names and the colleagues here . and what you 're uh drawing ? user interface: uh sure my name is agnes and i 'm an user usability user interface designer . marketing: my name is ed and i do accounting . project manager: uh how you spell your name uh ? marketing: e_d_ . project manager: e_d_ okay . marketing: mm . project manager: and ? industrial designer: do you also do marketing ? marketing: no . project manager: so only accounting ? okay . marketing: accounting , yes . project manager: and ? industrial designer: and i 'm christine , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and my role in this uh scenario is to be the industrial designer . project manager: industrial designer . industrial designer: but i 'm not really one . project manager: so who is uh marketing , nobody in the market marketing: marketing is uh , is me . project manager: it 's you , okay . so thanks for coming for the meeting first of all , and uh we have a long time , just twenty-five minutes to discuss about uh this project and the the project initiation . first of all i want to ask uh mister ed about your uh marketing plan and your product plan and uh marketing: well i think that we 'll see that throughout the day in how we 're going to put this together as a marketing to to market the product . we 'll have to see on a through discussion on where we 're gon na go from here and from with this . project manager: mm-hmm but uh do you already have like a functional design or a technical design or marketing: uh for the moment not yet . project manager: oh for the moment not yet , okay , but uh what 's what 's your uh do you have some project plan , something with you or marketing: good question . no , this is like i said that we have to be discussed between all of us and we 'll go from there . we 'll have to simply we 'll have to work on it together . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , so uh by when you think you can uh give me some kind of uh project plan , okay , a discussion with uh marketing: certainly by the next meeting . project manager: by next meeting , okay that will be great . uh okay , so there 's any questions or uh first of all about uh this project ? industrial designer: what is the goal of the project ? project manager: uh the goal of the project i think maybe i 'll uh hand out to the ed , okay , so to explain uh what is the project because he 's in the sales and the accounting . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: i 'm in the sales i 'm supposed to explain them what to do . we have to define exactly what our product is , from uh project manager: yes , so can you explain uh what exactly the product is ? marketing: from what i had in mind we 're supposed to be marketing coffee , is that right ? project manager: oh i think uh , if i 'm not wrong , we 're making the remote control . user interface: um i was wondering marketing: remote controls , 'cause i had two different things . i had a first part of mine was to make a remote control for a new f remote control for television , and afterward i had a discussion about coffee so project manager: yes . marketing: we 'll start with the remote control for television then . so we 're have to design something that is very user friendly . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: something uh visual that has something that will will draw people to buy the product , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: because i think everybody 's experienced with uh remote controls , and some remote controls are are worth uh throwing out the window . uh th most of them ar i do n't know we 're have to come up with a new idea on how to make it a lot easier to use , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause a lot of times uh spend uh half a day through the instruction book trying to figure out how to use it . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm . project manager: and uh what abo uh christine , what about your uh the industrial design plan ? are you have a design already on this product or uh you 're still working on the design ? industrial designer: um no , i i have not begun working on the design , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um i uh i actually did n't know we were designing a remote control , i thought we were designing a new monitor . um the website i went to look at had some announcements about an introduction of a um uh some sort of a seven inch um monitor , and um i understood that that was the project goal . so um i 'm glad i did n't d do any work um ahead of time because uh i clearly did n't understand the project goal . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um i just did s see that we were starting a new project together and there was going to be a four member team composed of these people , and um that 's about uh that 's project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and i i read through the different steps , and what my responsibilities were relative to the steps . project manager: so uh you 'll be leading the team for your design team or how many members is working in the team , for the design ? industrial designer: uh for the industrial design ? project manager: yes . industrial designer: um well , i would th think that depends on how much money you give us . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: that 's industrial designer: um because uh , you know , you can uh you can make it uh you have different choices with different financial models . project manager: yeah , but uh before we talk about uh the finance , okay , uh do you have some idea how we can uh sell this product or project in the market and how much is going to benefit to the company and uh of course it 's to the individual also . industrial designer: well , you know um , i kind of think that in general you have to do uh um y you have to have something that 's very fashionable , that 's uh very attractive that um people see and recognize uh its goal , and uh they immediately wan na have it uh have one of their own . so it would really would need to um something like the ipod would be good , seems to have caught on fairly well , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so um d uh you know , i do n't care what it does , just so it looks cool . project manager: okay , but uh uh when you think you can give me like a kind of design on the functional design or the technical design ? industrial designer: well , uh i 've got a lot of other projects i 'm doing right now um and so i 'll have to wait and see how those uh how those go . if they uh go quickly then uh it could be a month . if um if i run into any problems in my other projects it might be six months . project manager: yeah , but uh i need something in the writing , so like uh what 's your functional design , what 's your technical design , and uh how many people you need for this project , and what 's the time frame you 're looking , okay , and what is the budget , maybe uh initial budget you 're looking , okay , and uh how is going to the market , okay , industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: so you 've you 've had to meet with the marketing team and how they 're going to market and what are the marketing strategic plan , okay , when are you going to introduce , okay , and by the time you introduce the product and uh you know there there would be a competition , okay , so i need some kind of uh uh the plan in the writing from you . okay , and it 's po industrial designer: and when would you like that ? project manager: b as soon as possible . industrial designer: uh well if uh if we have enough time uh then d do you think um two weeks is a is close enough ? project manager: yes i think uh that would be good , because i need to go to the management and uh tell them what we are going to do , and uh what cost is , okay , and what 's the time frame and what 's the project plan , because uh without any uh documentations , i can not go to the management and say , so we are going to do this and we need this much money , okay , so then it 's it 's difficult for me to say , okay , that 's the reason i need uh some kind of plan from you , initially , okay , then we can have the further discussion again . industrial designer: uh are there other people who will be contributing to the plan ? project manager: yes , of course , if you need some help , uh so let me know . so , who are the people you need uh from the marketing or uh the technical side or uh the administration point of view , okay , to add in any documentation , or some technical point of view , industrial designer: project manager: so just let me know so i can uh coordinate all the teams . industrial designer: okay , i 'll get back to you on that . project manager: yes . thank you . okay . and uh ed uh so what 's what do you think about uh this uh project for the remote control and d do you have some already planned something for your marketing strategy or uh the sales strategy ? marketing: well not yet other than uh doing research and taking remote controls and looking what other companies have to do uh , what they 're building , their designs , their ideas , project manager: hmm . marketing: uh also have to pinpoint which market we 're gon na go into . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: it should be a fairly large market because uh the number of people that uh the competition , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: uh th i agree it has to be something it has to be something new , it has to be something that that draws people saying eh , i like this . whether it works or not , they have to first say i like this , i like the design , and then it 's got ta be simple to use . project manager: yes , so what i uh prefer maybe uh you need to interact uh more with the christine , okay , because you know what she is going to do it , okay , and you know how to sell it . okay , because uh she is doing the design , but you are the core because you are in the marketing , okay , marketing: yeah . project manager: so because you need to sell and you 're the responsible for the all the money , the finance , okay , tomorrow . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so , what i prefer , okay , so you need to interact with the christine more and uh within her team , okay , who is using the functional design or technical design , okay , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh you need to come up with some kind of plan , okay , how we are going to do the your sales plan , okay , th marketing: do we already have a cost limit on this , th an idea of how much uh we want to market this for , how much it 's gon na sell for , project manager: th that that 's marketing: that 's up that 's up to us to decide , eh ? project manager: yes , that 's you have to decide , okay , so the best thing is you uh both of uh the christine and you discuss with yourself , okay , and come up with the cost , and how we are going to compete in the market , okay , in the the technically , or in the sales wise , okay , the commercial wise , okay . then uh we have to design , okay , how long it will take the whole project , okay , how much is going to cost us , and how much we are going to benefit for the company . okay , of course it 's it 's uh of benefit for everybody individually . okay , so i think it 's uh maybe if we can uh give me some kind of your uh the sales plan , okay , including the technical what uh she 's going to talk to you within the team , okay , then it will help me to discuss with the management for further , okay , and put it in the the proper project plan . okay , and if you need uh any coordination in between uh compared to the maybe the some technical vendors or commercial vendors , okay , depends if you want to have some uh uh marketing plan or technical plan , okay , so you let me know . marketing: very good . project manager: okay , i can coordinate , marketing: very good . project manager: or maybe uh , you are my coordinator , am i right ? user interface: mm . project manager: between uh all the coor user interface: well , no , not exactly . i mean my job from what i understood was to look at the usability requirements and make sure that the product is usable , it 's acceptable to the people who are gon na use it and look at the best ways to do that . project manager: yeah . user interface: so i think i 'll have to interact with christine and discuss with her , so that she 's not designing something that my studies will show right off the bat that it 's not going to work , project manager: th christine , yeah . which is user interface: and so it 's sort of it 's a loop that feeds in , but i do n't think necessarily that i 'm in a coordinating position for it . project manager: yes . yeah , so basically you need to interact with christine more , okay , for the user acceptability , okay , and the testing , okay , user interface: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: then you will user interface: which will also feed into the marketing , project manager: yes . user interface: because depending on what users want , depends on how you sell it , what tag lines you attach to it , how you try to make it more attractive to users . project manager: yes . yeah . yeah . yeah . user interface: so i think all three groups will need to interact quite a bit . um , and then i guess build the plan based on all of that , because i think you need to take all the factors into account . project manager: yep . but what i request , okay , keep ed in the loop , okay , in between your uh meeting and christine meeting , because uh he should know what 's happening . user interface: yeah , of course . yeah , we can c_c_ him on any discussions or documents that are passed around . project manager: yes . okay and please please copy all the mails , okay , all the discussions to me , okay , so i need to submit to the management . user interface: sure . no problem . project manager: so any questions for uh time being ? industrial designer: marketing: no . user interface: so , the immediate next step is to start determining the functional design , or project manager: yes . user interface: okay . project manager: okay . to come up with the functional design and uh to discuss with ed , okay , and how it 's going to be work , and uh first of all with your user acceptance , okay , how it looks like and how it 's going to be work in the market , okay , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so then we can discuss about uh further things . so , we 'll meet when the we 'll discuss on the further meeting . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's okay ? thanks for coming . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: would you mind um at the conclusion of our meeting could could you send us a copy of your slides ? project manager: yes , i will . yes . user interface: mm-hmm , yeah , that would be useful . project manager: i 'll copy , uh le let us keep all the emails and all the copies , okay , share each other , okay , so you know everybody what 's happening , okay ? user interface: sure . project manager: and if anything you need anytime so please either you can call me , or just send me email , or uh just come and uh knock my door , okay , so i 'm available here . it 's good ? okay , thanks for coming and uh i wish you a nice time then . user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: thanks . project manager: okay , see you later . bye . user interface: thank you .

project manager expressed his hope that marketing could interact more frequently with the industrial designer christine within her team , so that the two departments of sales and finance could coordinate with each other . additionally , he would like all the teams worked together in order to take all the factors into account .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: okay um , welcome to our detailed design meeting . i 'm pretty excited . let 's start it 's approximately fifteen forty or something like that . okay um the agenda we 're gon na do an opening and then um i 'll talk about the minutes from the last meeting , what we d discussed um , then we 'll have the prototype presentation and a look at the evaluation criteria . we 'll look at the finances and finally a do a production evaluation and close . so , starting off with the um last the last one , oh i do n't have it here um , but we talked about energy , we 're gon na use a kinetic battery um , we want to use a simple chip , because we 're not gon na need a a shuffle um , we 're gon na need a scroll um , we 're choosing a latex case w in fruity colours that 's curved and um we 're using push buttons uh with a supplement of an on-screen menu . and it sounded like we had set um like eight or nine buttons , including five pre-set channels . okay ? let 's do the look and feel design presentation first . user interface: right , do you wan na start ? industrial designer: right , well we made three different prototypes and i guess we 'll start with with this one . um we have our colours not are not fixed , but this is the general shape . um it 's you hold it sort of either like like this in your left hand or you switch it over and uh it 's easily adaptable to either hand . you can push the buttons with your thumb like a mobile phone , or you can push them with your index finger of your other hand , or even i mean there 's a whole variety , you can hold it like this and press it with your same index finger . uh we have the on off button at the tip , very visible , very big . we have our up and down buttons , which are also gon na be our channel selectors , and we have our little menu button here . if you push if you 're just pushing these normally , they 're the menu buttons , if uh the volume buttons rather . if you press select once , they become channel changing buttons . if we press select three times , the menu with the other features and pro possibly also with your tv channel choices shows up , and you have your five presets down here . um if people wan na grab hold of that , see how it feels in your hand . that 's our number one prototype . um do you wan na present the potato , project manager: like a little lightning in it . industrial designer: or shall i present the martian ? user interface: okay , project manager: the little lightning bolt in it , very cute . user interface: um what we call that one the rhombus , marketing: i could project manager: the v the rhombus rhombus ? user interface: uh the rhombus . industrial designer: that 's the rhombus , yep . user interface: um this one is known as the potato , uh it 's industrial designer: user interface: it 's a marketing: user interface: how can i present it ? it 's an ergonomic shape , so it it fits in your hand nicely . um it 's designed to be used either in your left hand or or in your right hand . um i 've gone here just for just for four buttons on this one . um the two blue buttons here are for adjusting the volume . so you 've got volume up and volume down on the other side here . um the red ones are for uh changing channels , channel up and channel down and that 's um moves between your favourite channels that you 've selected . uh this middle button here brings up the on-screen menu and when you 're working in the on-screen menu you use the other four buttons to navigate around the menu system and the middle button uh to select and that 's basically it , that 's the potato . project manager: um on , off ? user interface: uh that would be one of your channels , basically , project manager: okay . user interface: so like channel zero would be t to switch switch the machine off , project manager: yeah we turn it off . user interface: yeah . marketing: could the middle button of the on-screen menu function as a power button ? user interface: um not really , industrial designer: user interface: it would make it hard to turn the machine off , to turn your tv off . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: if you pressed and held it maybe . user interface: yeah yeah , that that 'd be one way of doing it , yeah . that 'd work , yeah . marketing: if you like held it down , that would be on off . industrial designer: yeah . on off , that 's a possibility , yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and then finally we have um the martian or the pear , either way . um it 's a bit different , just a little bit more of a creative feel . uh you have the on off toggle stem on the top . we have the five preset seeds . project manager: industrial designer: and then you have on the sides to make it a little bit more three-dimensional , you have your channel changing , volume changing buttons and your menu button right here in the middle . so , that 's for your consideration as well , plus it 's an interesting talking point to have standing up . user interface: let 's pass . industrial designer: we figured it could stand up like this on your table , if you wanted it to , if i made the bot the bottom flat . project manager: uh-huh . marketing: sorry , what 's the yellow one in the middle , industrial designer: uh the menu select button . marketing: i forgot . project manager: very interesting . i think that one 's my favourite . industrial designer: user interface: so that 's so that 's our three prototypes . um basically , in terms of making decisions , what we 'd need to do is first of all decide on a form uh which of the three different shapes we want , then decide what kind of button layout we want , how many buttons , and then to choose what colours we want to make the buttons and if we wan na put any text on the device , like label on the buttons or put a brand name or or a logo on it or whatever . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: we were we were thinking that normally we 'd go for fruity colours , but maybe we 're also thinking that your sort of middle aged man , for an example customer , might not want a fruity coloured remote , so m maybe we 'd have one version that 's a bit toned down , project manager: mm 'kay . industrial designer: maybe with with less contrasts on it . yeah , something still a little bright to make it hard to lose , but user interface: would yeah , but we do n't want it to look like a kids ' toy . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: now that was one thing that we brought up over email . i do n't know if you picked up your email , but um the f the um feature that we considered for it not getting lost . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: right . well we were we were talking about that a little bit when we got that email and we think that each of these are so distinctive , that it it 's not just like another piece of technology around your house . it 's gon na be somewhere that it can be seen . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so we 're we 're not thinking that it 's gon na be as critical to have the loss marketing: but if it 's like under covers or like in a couch you still ca n't see it . project manager: it 's really would it be very difficult to um just have an external device that like i dunno , you tape to your to your tv um that when you press it you ha a little light beep goes off ? do you think that would be conceptually possible ? industrial designer: i think user interface: i think it would be difficult technologically , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: because if your if your remote 's lost it 's probably under the settee and in that case you ca n't you ca n't send an infrared sing signal to it to find it , project manager: mm . user interface: s so it 's i 'm not quite sure how it would work project manager: that 's true , mm 'kay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then i wonder if it 's if it 's more just a gimmick then anything else . uh i mean ho how many times do you really , seriously lose your remote control and would would a device like that actually help you to find it ? industrial designer: there might be something that you can do in the circuit board and the chip to make it make a noise or something , but it would take a lot more development than we have this afternoon . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , that 's a fair evaluation . getting lost . um we so we do we 've decided not to worry about that for now . okay 'cause well , the designs are very bright , so you 're right , they 're gon na stick out , but um industrial designer: so d do people have a preference as far as feel and functionality ? um . marketing: i feel like this is simil or it 's sort of what already exists so if we 're trying to think of something sort of like new and fun , even though this is like what you 're init i 'm initially drawn to , just 'cause it 's like comfortable and like not different . i sort of like this one , like i i do n't know why , it just it 's like small but still sort of like cute looking , i dunno . but i also like the b the side buttons on that one , like i think that 's kind of neat . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but i dunno how much any of this has to do with the fashionable , sort of cool looking thing that we also need to focus on . project manager: could we maybe have like an extra button on the top for on off ? so then w we would n't have to have like a dual function ? industrial designer: mm yeah , user interface: yeah , it 's possible , yeah , yeah . marketing: ah , industrial designer: that 's good , that 's good . marketing: there we go . industrial designer: here , stick it on . user interface: put an extra the button on . marketing: project manager: sure . industrial designer: project manager: um uh why do n't we do a product evaluation using your criteria , if you 've developed some ? marketing: well do we w like i think we 're supposed to have one that we do it for . project manager: oh okay . okay . marketing: that was industrial designer: so where marketing: i was a little vague on what exactly i 'm supposed to do , but let me i have to like write something on the whiteboard , so . project manager: okay . do you need this industrial designer: project manager: or just write on the white board ? marketing: no , i actually do n't have like a powerpointy thing , project manager: okay . industrial designer: right . marketing: 'cause i think it would be redundant . industrial designer: okay . marketing: i dunno . project manager: it 's kind of like uh like a joystick kind of thing , industrial designer: ooh . project manager: you know , user interface: cool . project manager: kinda push it . industrial designer: hey . project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: project manager: maybe a little smaller than that . industrial designer: no , i kinda like it . user interface: industrial designer: that 's hard to miss . user interface: it makes look more fruity as well . project manager: oh it does , industrial designer: project manager: it 's kind of like industrial designer: user interface: it 's like a deformed foot , i dunno . project manager: there it could have a stem like that , 'cause i do l kind of like the stem . industrial designer: like user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . it almost helps you ge keep a grip too , 'cause it goes in between fingers . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: interesting . project manager: i like this one . industrial designer: okay , project manager: variety of colours are nice . industrial designer: is that where people are leaning then , the potato ? i like the idea of the project manager: i think i 'm leaning towards the potato . industrial designer: i mean that 's really gotten the simplicity of the buttons down , that one . project manager: mm-hmm . i am worried about like um using a menu . um in that like i withing menus there are submenus , and so how do you get back to the main menu ? industrial designer: hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: well that on the ipod , for example , you just every time you wan na go back you hit the menu button again and it brings you back one level . project manager: but that has a menu button separate from a select button , whereas if this one 's both the menu and the select button ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: good point . user interface: this is , it 's the up and down buttons are used for scrolling up and down for a list of choices . project manager: okay . user interface: you find the choice that you want and you press uh you press the right button uh . project manager: could these be used for going to submenus marketing: user interface: yeah . yeah , so they 're used for going into and out of your submenus , yeah . project manager: or industrial designer: maybe yeah , project manager: okay . industrial designer: maybe it can be one of those , if you press down and hold for two seconds , then it brings you back one level or something . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . well , as long as we have that in mind as we 're designing it still , mm 'kay . marketing: okay , so which one are we sort of roughly looking at to address whether or not it meets our s um necessities , the yellowy one is that industrial designer: the potato ? are we leaning towards the potato ? user interface: potato . project manager: i think so . marketing: okay , well we can obviously change it after we go through each different one . industrial designer: okay . marketing: so basically what we need to do is some of the things that we 've talked about before we need to make sure that that remote actually does conform to the things that we said it was going to . industrial designer: okay . marketing: so what we sort of wan na do is that we each need to separately rank each of the following things and then i 'll tabulate an average just to make sure that it does meet that . industrial designer: okay . marketing: so we 'll just go through them one at a time and we 'll just go around and each of you can tell me on a scale of one to seven with one being really extremely true and seven being not true at all , or false , if the remote that we 've created conforms to the following criteria . so we can do this one first . first we wan na know if it meets the fancy look and feel um objective . so like in my opinion the for now at least , the yellow one is probably somewhere in the middle so i 'm gon na say it 's like a three . that 's just my opinion . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: what does each of you project manager: i i kind of think it 's it 's unique enough that i 'd give it a one or a two . marketing: okay , well give it a number , project manager: okay . marketing: sorry . project manager: i will give it a one . industrial designer: um i dunno if it 's it 's creative . i dunno if fancy is the word i would use . i dunno if any of them are fancy in i 'd say two , because c unique . marketing: okay . user interface: i 'll go for two . marketing: and two , awesome . alright , and same sort of scale for functionality , is it functional ? i think it 's extremely functional , i 'm gon na give it a one . industrial designer: yeah , one . marketing: one ? user interface: i think it 's it 's functional , it 's also pretty basic , so i 'll give it a two . marketing: okay . project manager: um functional . i think it 'll get everything done , i think it might be a little confusing at first , um , i do n't know if that 's gon na be a later one . marketing: okay . well there 's some other ones , i will address that , project manager: okay , then i 'm gon na give it a two . marketing: yeah . awesome , okay . um we wan na know next if it 's technologically innovative . project manager: did you give a functional ? marketing: yeah , she said it was one . project manager: okay . marketing: um is it technologically innovative ? mm . not really , i mean not so much , 'cause we we do n't have the lcd screen , we do n't have fancy chip . other than what it looks like , i dunno if it 's really project manager: well , the kinetic battery . industrial designer: in the battery , that 's it . marketing: i kinetic battery is a big one , so . industrial designer: how many people would notice that , though ? marketing: mm . but it project manager: but they 'll notice it after like a year , marketing: but we know it 's there . project manager: they 'll be like hey , i have never changed the battery . marketing: and if it 's made of like latex , that whole idea , that 's pretty cool . project manager: mm . just the material . marketing: i 'll give it a three . 'cause it we could 've picked a lot of features that would 've made it really industrial designer: yeah . i i would say that it 's yeah , like fancy versus creative it 's it 's different . but does that equal innovative ? i dunno . i 'll give it a three . marketing: alright . everyone else ? user interface: i 'd say it 's technologically it 's not it 's not unique , i mean it 's it 's just it is just pushbuttons um , so i i 'd give it a four . project manager: think i 'm gon na go with the four as well . marketing: mm 'kay . project manager: i really like that kinetic battery though . marketing: next , is it easy to use ? just so you know , easy to learn will be separate , project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: so do n't overlap them . industrial designer: okay . marketing: i think it 's really easy to use . i 'll give it a two . industrial designer: um i 'll give it a one . pretty hard to mess up . user interface: i 'll say one . project manager: uh let 's say two . marketing: alright . um we next wan na see if it has a spongy quality industrial designer: user interface: marketing: and if indeed it 's made of latex or rubber i it 's spongy all the way . industrial designer: project manager: give it a one . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: i wonder if it bounces when you drop it . industrial designer: ooh , that you could n't marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: industrial designer: it 'd be harder to break , project manager: mm . industrial designer: harder to lose . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'cause there would be less impact maybe , . industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah marketing: iain , what do you give it ? user interface: i 'd i 'd give it a one . marketing: alright and the next is , does it integrate some notion of fruits and vegetables ? industrial designer: user interface: uh um . marketing: well , is it gon na be yellow ? industrial designer: it it might be , 'cause that 's our corporate colour , is n't it ? project manager: that 's right , yeah , corporate colour , we did n't keep that in user interface: yeah . project manager: um well industrial designer: we might wan na keep it yellow . project manager: if we i know it would make it a little less c a little more confusing , but if we had all the buttons in black , and a design in and the outside in yellow , that 'd be our corporate one and we could also have alternative colours , one a more conservative one , one that 's more fruity . user interface: marketing: yeah , but if you had like a silvery kind of white or something . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah , project manager: um and can we have like an r_r_ inscribed on the bottom or something ? industrial designer: if we had a yellow sure . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: oh , yeah . project manager: fruity , so fruity . industrial designer: so marketing: alright , so i think it it 's industrial designer: it was inspired by the potato , so i think it 's pretty fruity . marketing: yeah . project manager: i think i it 's kind of mangoey too . marketing: industrial designer: oh , mango user interface: mangoey is better , yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yes . marketing: i industrial designer: that that user interface: i like mangoes . marketing: okay , i 'm giving it a one the mango put me over . project manager: mm . industrial designer: that 's a much more trendy than a potato marketing: what are what 's everyone 's numbers ? industrial designer: one . user interface: uh two . project manager: one . industrial designer: marketing: alright um , and does the design match the appropriate behaviour ? remember earlier we discussed that people do n't use a lot of buttons , that they use the channel flipping and the volume the most . i think we really took that into account a lot , so i 'm gon na give it a one . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , me too . user interface: uh one . marketing: did you say one , rose ? project manager: yes . marketing: okay um , also we talked earlier about r_s_i_ and wanting to prevent um any sort of like carpal tunnely kind of thing . do we think that the latex sort of grip appropriately takes that into account ? i think i 'll give it a two , 'cause i almost feel like no matter what you do , something is gon na happen . project manager: it 's gon na be hard . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah , yeah . project manager: and if it 's repetitive movement it is gon na be only four buttons that you 're constantly pushing , but um marketing: um um worth the risk , i think . project manager: i like how it fits in the hand though so i i 'd go with a two . industrial designer: yeah . i 'll i 'll say two as well . because older people that are n't used to like texting with the thumb might find it a bit at first , project manager: mm . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: but user interface: yeah i 'll i 'll say two . marketing: alright , awesome . and the ease of learning it . i know you were saying that you 're a little bit nervous about that , i dunno . it sort of reminds me of the ipod . i just got mine , i still have n't read the instruction book and i 'm doing okay , so project manager: mm . marketing: and i 'm not good at learning technology . so i 'll give it a two . industrial designer: the menu system and the the fact that multiple buttons are used for different things might be a bit confusing , but i think if it 's one it 's one of those things that it might take you five minutes to figure out , but you 'll have it afterwards . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i 'd i think i 'd give it a two i guess . user interface: i think it it 's probably a little harder then most remotes to learn , because you have to you have to use the menu system and you have to tell it what your favourite channels are industrial designer: oh , good point . user interface: and that could take a bit of learning at first , but marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: once you 've , yeah once you 'd learned how to use it , i think it is a lot easier . so i 'd i 'd give it a four . marketing: okay . project manager: i think i 'd give it a four too . it 's a pretty high learning curve , it 'll be easy once you 've done it , but industrial designer: user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . alright , um also earlier we had something about losing it and so now we 're not addressing that at all , so project manager: we we industrial designer: project manager: i think we can kind of say we addressed it with colour , but marketing: okay , so in terms of not losing it , do you think that on a scale of one to seven , how easy or hard is it to lose ? i 'm gon na i 'm gon na give it a four , 'cause i think that you can still if it 's in between somewhere where you ca n't see it , you 're kind of not gon na find it , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but anywhere else it 's gon na stand out . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: um i 'd say i 'd give it uh a three , i guess it depends on how tidy you are normally . project manager: mm i 'd give it a four . user interface: um i 'll give it a five 'cause i it would be easy to lose something like that , yeah . project manager: small too . marketing: alright , we also said simplicity , how w how well does it address just being simple ? industrial designer: simple to use or simple in design ? do you know ? marketing: i think overall , 'cause we had said before our two main things were simplicity and fashion , industrial designer: marketing: so those are the next two things we 're gon na look at . separate from fancy , like that sort of thing . industrial designer: right . marketing: um it like wants to be simple but it 's not like totally totally simple , so i 'm gon na give it a two . industrial designer: i 'm give it a three i guess . user interface: i 'll give it a two . project manager: three . marketing: alright , and fashionable ? project manager: it 's totally fashionable . i 'd give it a one . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: it 's hot , i mean it 's a mango , come on . project manager: mango . marketing: i mean how fashionable can you make a remote ? i think it 's bringing technology and fashion together real really well . industrial designer: i dunno . user interface: industrial designer: i do n't think it 's quite as fashionable as my robot remote project manager: i do like uh the little martian one . industrial designer: or alien or whatever he was . marketing: yeah , the toggle on off switch , it 's really appealing . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: number . industrial designer: um two . user interface: three . project manager: one . marketing: and does it meet our like demographic need sort of for international appeal , that whole thing ? just that it would se serve our audience . i do n't see why not . project manager: mm-hmm . i think as long if we offer in a in at least three different colour arrangements . um yeah , that 's good . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so i 'll give it a a two . industrial designer: yeah , i 'll say two . marketing: alright , did anyone have any other features that they think were important that we did n't talk about ? project manager: well um we did n't we did n't address the fact that it does need to b have a corporate logo , so let 's let 's make sure we keep that in mind that we ha that one of our colours concepts is corporate and has an r_r_ on it . industrial designer: shall we uh well i think all of them should have an r_r_ . project manager: all of them should have r_r_ , yeah . marketing: and so we 're gon na do that , so it will address it , project manager: mm-hmm . mm 'kay . marketing: fine . okay . project manager: lovely . marketing: that 's me . project manager: okay , now we 're gon na look at finances . um i have an excel sheet that we 're actually gon na calculate the cost um , so let me exit out of this first . okay um industrial designer: oh my . marketing: whoa . project manager: i know . let me one more space . gon na zoom in real quick . okay . hand dynamo . we 're using kinetic battery , industrial designer: uh we 're n using kinetic , yeah . project manager: right ? um and we 're having one per one , okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um electronics . industrial designer: single . project manager: simple . industrial designer: simple , simple rather . marketing: simple . project manager: mm 'kay . um the case . industrial designer: uh uh uh double-curved . user interface: guess it 's double-curved . it is pretty curvy . project manager: it 's very curvy , marketing: yeah . project manager: so okay . industrial designer: yeah i never did get a picture of those so i do n't really know . our case material supplements oops , we just skipped by them . marketing: well do n't we need plastic , and industrial designer: no , we we the plastic is the plastic for the inside is assumed . the supplement is marketing: provided , okay . project manager: the wood ? industrial designer: oh , i guess it was rubber rather than latex . project manager: i mean the rubber . marketing: it was rubber and special colour , right ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm , okay . marketing: do we have more than one special colour ? project manager: yeah , we 're using we 're gon na need at least two special colours . industrial designer: uh well user interface: special colours , is n't it ? project manager: um . industrial designer: i do n't know what the se the basic colour is though . marketing: per project manager: i dunno where it yeah . marketing: well , but we know that we 're having at least three colours , project manager: so let 's y say three . marketing: so industrial designer: well , are we talking about on each colour combination or are we , you know , we 'll like we 'll have yellow and black . is that two special colours ? project manager: yeah , i dunno . that i thi industrial designer: or or is white and black , then two more or project manager: i thought that would be under yours . industrial designer: uh . i guess it 's three , project manager: we 'll just say three . industrial designer: three three . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: right . project manager: maybe the r_r_ will be in colour as well , industrial designer: alright . project manager: so yeah . interface , we 're doing push buttons . and how many buttons do we have ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we have six . user interface: we 've got five . project manager: six . industrial designer: six , with the power . user interface: oh marketing: oh user interface: six . marketing: no , five . project manager: anything else ? industrial designer: yeah . no . oh , we 'll do we wa are the buttons in special colour , special f i did n't get information on project manager: oh , marketing: oh wait . project manager: buttons oh , so um . so the case material will just have one colour , right , industrial designer: well , project manager: but then the buttons will be in special colours ? industrial designer: does it marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but if we 're making multiple varieties of this is where i 'm getting confused . project manager: we 're saying per unit . industrial designer: per unit , okay , okay . marketing: yeah , per unit . project manager: okay , so each unit will only have one colour on their industrial designer: alright , and each button s project manager: but the case is could have up to thr i mean the buttons could ea could be up to three colours , 'cause that how it 's designed there . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: i like it like that . project manager: so industrial designer: yeah , okay . project manager: special form ? they 're all kind of just push button , industrial designer: no , project manager: right ? industrial designer: i think they 're fine . user interface: yeah . project manager: special material ? industrial designer: material , we want them rubber as well probably , yeah . project manager: uh . oh do i have to do it per button , do i ? industrial designer: no , i do n't think so . i think they 're project manager: okay . industrial designer: if they 're all gon na be rubber then it that 's what it matters . marketing: yeah , 'cause it would n't make sense otherwise , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: 'cause for the whole mat case material it 's only one . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it 's i mean it 's two to make it rubber . industrial designer: okay . marketing: oh wait , so maybe . project manager: thirteen point seven . marketing: industrial designer: oh oh . project manager: yeah , what can we reduce ? industrial designer: okay , let 's have our buttons all be one colour . marketing: mm , i kind of like the buttons . project manager: let 's see what that would do . it 's only gon na bring us down to thirteen point three anyway . industrial designer: alright . project manager: okay um , are we sure this is double-curved ? industrial designer: uh . project manager: maybe it 's single-curved , industrial designer: we have no idea . project manager: we have no idea . industrial designer: i dunno , i did n't get any pictures . it 's single curved . marketing: it 's single curved . industrial designer: why not ? project manager: well it 's not the yeah . okay , it 's the kinetic battery that 's kind of expensive , but we have a simple chip , single curve , marketing: project manager: case material is rubber and it 's a special colour , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: but that 's important . six buttons we have to have six buttons . industrial designer: that is important . how did it get more expensive , what did you just change ? project manager: what ? industrial designer: it was it was thirteen and now it 's fifteen . project manager: no , okay , maybe not . i do n't know what just happened . now it 's twelve . marketing: we industrial designer: user interface: what was our target price again ? project manager: twelve point five . industrial designer: twelve point five . hey hey . user interface: twelve point five . so we 're just just about there . project manager: so we 're okay , i think . industrial designer: we 're all set then . project manager: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: ish . project manager: okay , we 're all set . industrial designer: alright . project manager: um save . i saved that to our um our big shared folder , so you know . um okay , back to agenda . um are the are the costs under twelve fifty euro ? yes . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , they are . project manager: let 's move on to the project evaluation . project process . satisfaction with for example the room for creativity , leadership , teamwork , the means , any new ideas found . so i guess what we 're gon na talk about here is just evaluating how we created this project , the information we got on the news , how we used it , if we were able to um , you know , use our creativity with the information , um how how well i guess i led it , um the how well we worked together as a team , um the digital pens , the whiteboard . marketing: project manager: okay . industrial designer: well . i felt very creative . user interface: i think we 've been successful industrial designer: i enjoyed making the prototypes . user interface: in that we 've achieved almost all of the design goals that we 've set industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and we 've come up with a finished project and we just about got cost . industrial designer: i think we could 've done even better with a little bit more information , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like what 's a single-curved case , how many colours , what do colours count project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: things , but given given what we had i think that we did we did really well . um i think we worked together pretty well . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , i mean if i 'd had more market research on the fruits and vegetables , maybe we could 've taken that into account . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: industrial designer: but the fruits and vegetables , they really my creativity , so . project manager: marketing: i know , i really did , the the whole mango idea was great . industrial designer: do you think we could user interface: marketing: no , i mean i thought the pen was a little distracting for me personally , like its heaviness , and like just being so conscious of like turning the pages , i dunno . that was a bit of a distraction . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that was the last one , like i chose not to do a powerpoint 'cause i did n't think it made sense to , so i liked that i had the option to do that and just to take my own notes and that whole sort of thing . project manager: mm-hmm . i think we all made um very significant contributions , user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: i do n't think anybody dominated it , which i thought was really good , like each of us was able to um like each of you had your information and i uh i tried to facilitate it without like taking over , um industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i like our little finished products . industrial designer: can we market this as the mango remote ? marketing: they 're funny . project manager: really cute . user interface: marketing: i kind of want one . user interface: industrial designer: should we have that somewhere on the packaging ? i have a little r_r_ . marketing: i 'm trying to think of a good pun that i could add there . project manager: i know , industrial designer: project manager: let 's think of it like a little jingle . marketing: project manager: um . industrial designer: marketing: i like the r_r_ , that 's gon na be etched in . industrial designer: yes . hopefully not with just my fingernail at some point but um it 's quite a useful little gadget . all thanks to iain for the design of that one . project manager: . okay um industrial designer: mm . what did we find for new ideas ? project manager: new ideas found ? industrial designer: people should really base their remotes on fruits and vegetables . project manager: definitely . or or at least be c p creative enough to think of toggle switches mm user interface: yeah . project manager: etcetera . industrial designer: i i am really into the idea of kinetic batteries now after reading about them . project manager: oh , i 'm so excited . user interface: industrial designer: that was marketing: yeah , i did n't even know they existed . industrial designer: i i knew you can get watches that had them , like really quite expensive watches that just never need a battery , 'cause you 're always moving your wrist . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but in other things , i think it 'd be really good . project manager: i thi yeah , that 's awesome . um okay , closing . are the costs within the budget ? is the project evaluated ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: now there 's the final questionnaire and meeting summary . um so , this is the great product kids , i think we 've created something really interesting and that we have a market for it , um especially if we can produce it at twelve point three industrial designer: yeah . project manager: which we hope um yeah . make sure in your questionnaire to put down criticisms of both the process and the um the final results and . industrial designer: marketing: yeah , real reaction . project manager: i do like the martian remote . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: if we could choose more than one , that would be my second choice . marketing: oh , that would definitely be my second choice . project manager: although the tog toggle user interface: mm . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: i 'm afraid i would user interface: that 's cool . let 's all let 's all go for the yellow marketing: i would break it . i would break it . project manager: it 's cool . i think i would break it . industrial designer: it started because i wanted to have it as st as a stem user interface: break the stem off . industrial designer: and then alright , so marketing: oh that 's funny . industrial designer: is it started as a pear , but then it started looking more and more like a martian project manager: oh industrial designer: when i put the user interface: marketing: kind of looks like a penguin , like with no eye . industrial designer: take me to your leader . project manager: yeah , it 's kind of a penguin . industrial designer: marketing: i like that it stands up . project manager: mm-mm . industrial designer: wow , maybe i should market it to some remote control company now . user interface: industrial designer: so are are project manager: user interface: that was bound to happen. $ marketing: oh , sad . industrial designer: poor little thing . project manager: mm 'kay , congratulations . um . anything else to say ? marketing: nothing will come up until after our meeting 's supposed to be over , project manager: alright . marketing: its all timed . project manager: um anybody have industrial designer: oh . marketing: oh . project manager: i got more master classes , anybody else wan na like take a master 's class ? industrial designer: it 's really funny that you got spam in your work emails . marketing: user interface: project manager: yeah , but check it out . so like there are all these like links , they do n't go anywhere . industrial designer: project manager: but all that you need to keep in mind your knowledge management . um just wan na make sure you do . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: marketing: no the first one that you sent like i did n't realise that it was a joke and i was like why did she send this to us ? project manager: oh industrial designer: marketing: it 's very it 's very work relevant , project manager: it is . marketing: 'cause people send spam a lot . project manager: yes definitely industrial designer: let 's see , project manager: i 'm very sad that i did n't get any links to the corporate website . . marketing: oh here you can you can view . industrial designer: what did i get through the corporate website ? it 's just inspiration about circuit boards . marketing: you can just see what 's up . project manager: wow . marketing: yeah it 's it 's really deep . hold on . takes a little while to get excited to load . that the excel thing is pretty cool . project manager: yes . industrial designer: yeah , that is pretty neat . project manager: i love excel , marketing: here , like , basically project manager: it 's one of my favourite programs . marketing: it 's like inspiration , basically i 'm gon na give you two sentences on fashion and that kind of thing , see . you did n't miss out that much . project manager: i see , mm . industrial designer: yeah , my inspiration from from last time is the in interior of a remote control being taken apart bit by bit , talking about circuit boards . project manager: spongy . industrial designer: i learned a lot actually . user interface: mm . industrial designer: i could probably take apart a remote control now if i really needed to . marketing: oh wow . this one was cooler . i got a whole table and everything . industrial designer: now i have all about circuits and chips and transponders and i wrote it all down , because i thought it would be relevant , like all the different parts of the inside of a remote control , but then they 're like , you do n't actually need this you just need to talk about the case . marketing: that 's like mine it was like , would you prefer an lcd screen or a multifunction remote control ? and then it did n't have like any kind of table , like awesome , i 'm glad they asked that question and did n't report the result . project manager: i i thought it was a little tricky having to hand around this thing . industrial designer: it 's really interesting though . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: we had a lot of the um otherwise the technology today was kinda cool . user interface: i think . yeah . industrial designer: that was really neat how i got emails project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and user interface: we did n't we did n't use the whiteboard that much . project manager: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: although i do n't see how we could have very l at least for me user interface: industrial designer: i yeah . if i 'd gotten pictures of the different parts of the case , the different looks of the case , i would have probably drawn them up , project manager: mm . industrial designer: but marketing: 'cause we were n't like voting on anything and i think usually , like whiteboards are good , you know like crossing out ideas , or like if we had had like a brainstorming period . industrial designer: yeah , we could 've put our brainstorming stuff up there rather than just talking about it , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but with only four people it does n't really make sense . marketing: but i thought we were good orally . project manager: and with and with the powerpoint that we can all look at , like you can do all those things pretty much on powerpoint industrial designer: i think if you had a larger group marketing: get crazy . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: as that 's not as necessary to have . user interface: yeah . marketing: and these might 've made us more willing to like take notes than to like write up them here , project manager: mm . marketing: 'cause we all needed them separately , kind of on the whiteboards in this room . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: because we 're all gon na be working in different places . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: we if we were all gon na stay in here all the time , then having the notes up on the whiteboard would 've been alright , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but everyone needs their own , like specific notes , i guess . project manager: now when you were um creating your um prototypes here , did you work together or did you like do separate projects ? user interface: uh we we worked together , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: um but we were making like we sort of made different shapes and then discussed how the how the buttons might work , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: um and how we could like improve on the on the design . industrial designer: so it was a bit of both really , we just kind of started out by each taking a colour of clay and just fooling around with it and i came up with that rhombus shape project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and he came up with the sort of potatoey , mangoey shape , and then just went from there really . project manager: cool . industrial designer: it was fun . so well done with the management , i felt well managed . project manager: oh thanks . user interface: i think we did well in first of all giving our meetings the time , project manager: it 's kinda fun . user interface: and second we actually we we did a good job of making firm decisions at the ends of the meetings . project manager: mm . user interface: and i marketing: sorry . industrial designer: that happened to me all the time though . user interface: i know what happens sometimes is that you tend to sort of have meetings and then people sorta drift away without anything actually really being decided . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but i think here we got we got clear and and decisive decisive points at the end of the meetings , so that we we knew where to go on from there . industrial designer: yeah , i was quite worried at the end of the last meeting that we were n't getting we did n't really have enough information to make firm decisions , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but we were able to do it regardless , so . i 'm not usually a very decisive person , so it helped to have people say this needs to be done in five minutes . project manager: this is what we 'll do . user interface: yeah . project manager: i found that we did we could have used another five or ten minutes sometimes in the meetings . industrial designer: especially last time , user interface: yeah , for some of the meetings , yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah i think the last time we had a lot of information , but at the same time not quite enough , industrial designer: yeah , project manager: you know what i mean , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: like we we could n't answer every single question . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: um but industrial designer: right . and i i felt the first two meetings , that i was coming in with no information , project manager: mm . industrial designer: and not sort of made me really like , ooh i do n't know , throwing together powerpoint out of no no information and then last time it was like the opposite . i had so much information and so much to talk about . project manager: it was interesting what came out like later , like as i was doing the when i was doing the breakdown on the agenda that they gave me um , that more points came out from your presentation even . industrial designer: yeah . mm . project manager: um . i 'm a little i am a little disappointed that we did n't do a um something for losing the remote , because that was kind of a big point . industrial designer: yeah . that was something like in order to talk about that we would 've had to have actual knowledge about circuit boards and things like project manager: about yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: well the problem was , even when we just were creating from the excel file , there was n't like a option to select to somehow have it included , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so there was no we could be like yeah , it has it included . industrial designer: i think we were project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: there was no way for us to have project manager: considered the re industrial designer: yeah . marketing: written down that it was really there . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think we were just getting overenthusiastic with the task . project manager: well marketing: project manager: it 's interesting that they industrial designer: i think we really got into it , i mean i got into it as the day went on and i got really like , ooh i 'm designing a remote control , i dunno if that 's just me , project manager: mm-hmm , yeah . industrial designer: but project manager: it was interesting though that they put that fifty percent of people say they have frustration with losing their remote and yet they did n't provide us with information to um we were n't provided with information to discuss that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: i know that like people people have like things they can put on their keys that you press it and it 'll beep , but i but i 'm sure that would require some kind of technology industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: that i just do n't know what it is , but industrial designer: i think there are some of those like infomercial remotes that have things so you wo n't lose them . project manager: mm . industrial designer: i dunno . i mean we were talking about it and like i in my household at least , there 's only about two places that the remote is ever project manager: hmm . industrial designer: 'cause there 's only one tv and there 's only like three chairs . marketing: that 's like saying you 're never gon na lose your keys , and i always do , anyway . you 'll lose 'em in your pocket , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: like you just will forget that or you like put it down somewhere that like made sense and then not remember , project manager: mm . marketing: there 's always ways to lose things . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it d yeah , it depends on how organised you are personally , but industrial designer: yeah , or like i guess what the setup of the house is too . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but , i mean i am notorious for losing my keys , project manager: industrial designer: i just i guess i 've just never lost the remote . i put my keys in the refrigerator the other night and could n't find them . user interface: industrial designer: 'cause i was putting groceries away . marketing: that 's funny . project manager: oh . industrial designer: you you 're taking stuff from a bag and putting them in the refrigerator and then go back to my room . project manager: ca n't get in . industrial designer: ca n't get in , look all around the kitchen . definitely in the vegetable drawer . project manager: marketing: that 's funny . industrial designer: so . marketing: i always do that , leaving it in my coat , and then like using a different coat . industrial designer: mm . project manager: yep . industrial designer: but i guess it 's 'cause we do n't carry remotes around that much . marketing: yeah . ca n't really take it into the other room . industrial designer: yeah . maybe with our little robot one we could 've had him have a robot , alien , pear , whatever he is , have a little voice like , i am located marketing: industrial designer: oh a g_p_s_ system , internal g_p_s_ . marketing: user interface: marketing: oh man . here you go . project manager: we should make one that walks by itself . industrial designer: although if it 's sitting still for too long . yes i user interface: marketing: that really could get up and walk away . project manager: or or like some crazy like electro-magnet , that you push it and it 'll go zoom to the tv and stick there . industrial designer: or little or just just a wheel , you know . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: just if you like you 'd have a remote for your remote , that 'll . user interface: yeah . project manager: well , but if you could attach them to the tv , then you can . industrial designer: zoom yeah . hmm . all kinds of possibilities . project manager: mm . okay . sorry , i 'm just um trying to update my minutes . i decided to you know how i sent you the email saying that powerpoint minutes will be complimentary , rather than like repeating them . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: just gon na make i 'm making full minutes , so that it 'll include all of the agenda and all that . industrial designer: oh . project manager: 'cause that seems a little more useful . industrial designer: wow . 'cause you 've had like the most typing and organising to do . project manager: but i did n't have like information to sloth through either , so industrial designer: yeah , i guess how much of your powerpoint was already done for you , every meeting . project manager: most of it , mm-hmm . i added slides , um i added a couple slides each time , industrial designer: oh . project manager: but that was about it . industrial designer: okay . yeah , i did n't even think about adding slides , 'cause i would just get slides with titles on them project manager: mm . industrial designer: and fill them all in w did n't even think about adding more . project manager: well , the thing was they would provide y an agenda with s like several points , but it would n't have a slide for each point . and that 's the only way i remember that i need to go other that point . industrial designer: ah yeah . . project manager: i know personally when i do powerpoint , that 's what i do and so i had it once , even if it was just like the title of it , like the three presentations , and i would do your three . industrial designer: right . marketing: you have you have to have the slogan on it or can it just be like project manager: the slogan on it ? industrial designer: no , no , definitely not . project manager: no no no . marketing: okay good . industrial designer: we marketing: 'cause i was like , it could go around the outside . industrial designer: no , i do n't think we need to user interface: project manager: i think we just need the um the r_r_ , industrial designer: i think the r_ and r_ , especially if the yellow and black one . project manager: yeah . marketing: is it yellow and blue ? industrial designer: or yellow and blue . lem me go to the web page . project manager: yeah , i was just kinda going by the web page , 'cause they did n't give me any clear , like yellow , grey , or . marketing: oh i guess it is black , grey . grey is better than black , does n't look so bumblebeeish . project manager: i do n't really like yellow in general . marketing: hey now i understand the random like newsclippings . project manager: but it industrial designer: finish meeting now . marketing: project manager: was n't it interesting that um i thought it was interesting that our market marketing um expert did not agree with the marketing um marketing: yes . project manager: the marketing choices , industrial designer: user interface: project manager: you know , like industrial designer: marketing: i will project manager: that was a bit of a conflict . marketing: i just feel like if you 're really doing like a a really big market evaluation , you would n't just have like one set of source , industrial designer: marketing: it 's kind of an they were so not backed up , it would just be a sentence like we did a survey , this is what people said . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: s mm , i dunno . project manager: people are stupid . industrial designer: i guess it i it sort of a grey , is n't it ? yellow and grey , but then the slogan 's in blue . marketing: well we got some grey and we got some blue buttons , we 're good . industrial designer: yeah . well we do n't have the right colour clay anyway . project manager: maybe , like i do n't know . that could always be . industrial designer: well we 're not , sadly , going to actually be producing this , so . project manager: oh . marketing: if they ever come out with potato industrial designer: potato mango shaped remotes . marketing: i 'm gon na have to project manager: i 'm claiming it intellectual property . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i ca n't believe a whole day is gone . i do n't feel like it 's been that long . marketing: i know . industrial designer: get sucked in . mm i have n't gotten questionnaire eight yet .

this meeting was about the prototype presentation and evaluation . firstly , the group presented the prototype with agreed features including a latex case in fruity colours that 's curved , push buttons with an on-screen menu button as well as eight extra buttons . next , the group had a discussion about the prototype evaluation . they gave a high scale of the score on creativity , ease of use , integration of fruits as well as the simplicity . also , they gave an average score on technology innovation and ease of learning . then , the group agreed to set the target price at 12.5 euros . lastly , the group had a discussion about the project process , including management and leadership as well as group mates ' personal learning .

summarize the discussion about evaluation criteria . </s> project manager: okay um , welcome to our detailed design meeting . i 'm pretty excited . let 's start it 's approximately fifteen forty or something like that . okay um the agenda we 're gon na do an opening and then um i 'll talk about the minutes from the last meeting , what we d discussed um , then we 'll have the prototype presentation and a look at the evaluation criteria . we 'll look at the finances and finally a do a production evaluation and close . so , starting off with the um last the last one , oh i do n't have it here um , but we talked about energy , we 're gon na use a kinetic battery um , we want to use a simple chip , because we 're not gon na need a a shuffle um , we 're gon na need a scroll um , we 're choosing a latex case w in fruity colours that 's curved and um we 're using push buttons uh with a supplement of an on-screen menu . and it sounded like we had set um like eight or nine buttons , including five pre-set channels . okay ? let 's do the look and feel design presentation first . user interface: right , do you wan na start ? industrial designer: right , well we made three different prototypes and i guess we 'll start with with this one . um we have our colours not are not fixed , but this is the general shape . um it 's you hold it sort of either like like this in your left hand or you switch it over and uh it 's easily adaptable to either hand . you can push the buttons with your thumb like a mobile phone , or you can push them with your index finger of your other hand , or even i mean there 's a whole variety , you can hold it like this and press it with your same index finger . uh we have the on off button at the tip , very visible , very big . we have our up and down buttons , which are also gon na be our channel selectors , and we have our little menu button here . if you push if you 're just pushing these normally , they 're the menu buttons , if uh the volume buttons rather . if you press select once , they become channel changing buttons . if we press select three times , the menu with the other features and pro possibly also with your tv channel choices shows up , and you have your five presets down here . um if people wan na grab hold of that , see how it feels in your hand . that 's our number one prototype . um do you wan na present the potato , project manager: like a little lightning in it . industrial designer: or shall i present the martian ? user interface: okay , project manager: the little lightning bolt in it , very cute . user interface: um what we call that one the rhombus , marketing: i could project manager: the v the rhombus rhombus ? user interface: uh the rhombus . industrial designer: that 's the rhombus , yep . user interface: um this one is known as the potato , uh it 's industrial designer: user interface: it 's a marketing: user interface: how can i present it ? it 's an ergonomic shape , so it it fits in your hand nicely . um it 's designed to be used either in your left hand or or in your right hand . um i 've gone here just for just for four buttons on this one . um the two blue buttons here are for adjusting the volume . so you 've got volume up and volume down on the other side here . um the red ones are for uh changing channels , channel up and channel down and that 's um moves between your favourite channels that you 've selected . uh this middle button here brings up the on-screen menu and when you 're working in the on-screen menu you use the other four buttons to navigate around the menu system and the middle button uh to select and that 's basically it , that 's the potato . project manager: um on , off ? user interface: uh that would be one of your channels , basically , project manager: okay . user interface: so like channel zero would be t to switch switch the machine off , project manager: yeah we turn it off . user interface: yeah . marketing: could the middle button of the on-screen menu function as a power button ? user interface: um not really , industrial designer: user interface: it would make it hard to turn the machine off , to turn your tv off . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: if you pressed and held it maybe . user interface: yeah yeah , that that 'd be one way of doing it , yeah . that 'd work , yeah . marketing: if you like held it down , that would be on off . industrial designer: yeah . on off , that 's a possibility , yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and then finally we have um the martian or the pear , either way . um it 's a bit different , just a little bit more of a creative feel . uh you have the on off toggle stem on the top . we have the five preset seeds . project manager: industrial designer: and then you have on the sides to make it a little bit more three-dimensional , you have your channel changing , volume changing buttons and your menu button right here in the middle . so , that 's for your consideration as well , plus it 's an interesting talking point to have standing up . user interface: let 's pass . industrial designer: we figured it could stand up like this on your table , if you wanted it to , if i made the bot the bottom flat . project manager: uh-huh . marketing: sorry , what 's the yellow one in the middle , industrial designer: uh the menu select button . marketing: i forgot . project manager: very interesting . i think that one 's my favourite . industrial designer: user interface: so that 's so that 's our three prototypes . um basically , in terms of making decisions , what we 'd need to do is first of all decide on a form uh which of the three different shapes we want , then decide what kind of button layout we want , how many buttons , and then to choose what colours we want to make the buttons and if we wan na put any text on the device , like label on the buttons or put a brand name or or a logo on it or whatever . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: we were we were thinking that normally we 'd go for fruity colours , but maybe we 're also thinking that your sort of middle aged man , for an example customer , might not want a fruity coloured remote , so m maybe we 'd have one version that 's a bit toned down , project manager: mm 'kay . industrial designer: maybe with with less contrasts on it . yeah , something still a little bright to make it hard to lose , but user interface: would yeah , but we do n't want it to look like a kids ' toy . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: now that was one thing that we brought up over email . i do n't know if you picked up your email , but um the f the um feature that we considered for it not getting lost . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: right . well we were we were talking about that a little bit when we got that email and we think that each of these are so distinctive , that it it 's not just like another piece of technology around your house . it 's gon na be somewhere that it can be seen . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so we 're we 're not thinking that it 's gon na be as critical to have the loss marketing: but if it 's like under covers or like in a couch you still ca n't see it . project manager: it 's really would it be very difficult to um just have an external device that like i dunno , you tape to your to your tv um that when you press it you ha a little light beep goes off ? do you think that would be conceptually possible ? industrial designer: i think user interface: i think it would be difficult technologically , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: because if your if your remote 's lost it 's probably under the settee and in that case you ca n't you ca n't send an infrared sing signal to it to find it , project manager: mm . user interface: s so it 's i 'm not quite sure how it would work project manager: that 's true , mm 'kay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then i wonder if it 's if it 's more just a gimmick then anything else . uh i mean ho how many times do you really , seriously lose your remote control and would would a device like that actually help you to find it ? industrial designer: there might be something that you can do in the circuit board and the chip to make it make a noise or something , but it would take a lot more development than we have this afternoon . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , that 's a fair evaluation . getting lost . um we so we do we 've decided not to worry about that for now . okay 'cause well , the designs are very bright , so you 're right , they 're gon na stick out , but um industrial designer: so d do people have a preference as far as feel and functionality ? um . marketing: i feel like this is simil or it 's sort of what already exists so if we 're trying to think of something sort of like new and fun , even though this is like what you 're init i 'm initially drawn to , just 'cause it 's like comfortable and like not different . i sort of like this one , like i i do n't know why , it just it 's like small but still sort of like cute looking , i dunno . but i also like the b the side buttons on that one , like i think that 's kind of neat . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but i dunno how much any of this has to do with the fashionable , sort of cool looking thing that we also need to focus on . project manager: could we maybe have like an extra button on the top for on off ? so then w we would n't have to have like a dual function ? industrial designer: mm yeah , user interface: yeah , it 's possible , yeah , yeah . marketing: ah , industrial designer: that 's good , that 's good . marketing: there we go . industrial designer: here , stick it on . user interface: put an extra the button on . marketing: project manager: sure . industrial designer: project manager: um uh why do n't we do a product evaluation using your criteria , if you 've developed some ? marketing: well do we w like i think we 're supposed to have one that we do it for . project manager: oh okay . okay . marketing: that was industrial designer: so where marketing: i was a little vague on what exactly i 'm supposed to do , but let me i have to like write something on the whiteboard , so . project manager: okay . do you need this industrial designer: project manager: or just write on the white board ? marketing: no , i actually do n't have like a powerpointy thing , project manager: okay . industrial designer: right . marketing: 'cause i think it would be redundant . industrial designer: okay . marketing: i dunno . project manager: it 's kind of like uh like a joystick kind of thing , industrial designer: ooh . project manager: you know , user interface: cool . project manager: kinda push it . industrial designer: hey . project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: project manager: maybe a little smaller than that . industrial designer: no , i kinda like it . user interface: industrial designer: that 's hard to miss . user interface: it makes look more fruity as well . project manager: oh it does , industrial designer: project manager: it 's kind of like industrial designer: user interface: it 's like a deformed foot , i dunno . project manager: there it could have a stem like that , 'cause i do l kind of like the stem . industrial designer: like user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . it almost helps you ge keep a grip too , 'cause it goes in between fingers . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: interesting . project manager: i like this one . industrial designer: okay , project manager: variety of colours are nice . industrial designer: is that where people are leaning then , the potato ? i like the idea of the project manager: i think i 'm leaning towards the potato . industrial designer: i mean that 's really gotten the simplicity of the buttons down , that one . project manager: mm-hmm . i am worried about like um using a menu . um in that like i withing menus there are submenus , and so how do you get back to the main menu ? industrial designer: hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: well that on the ipod , for example , you just every time you wan na go back you hit the menu button again and it brings you back one level . project manager: but that has a menu button separate from a select button , whereas if this one 's both the menu and the select button ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: good point . user interface: this is , it 's the up and down buttons are used for scrolling up and down for a list of choices . project manager: okay . user interface: you find the choice that you want and you press uh you press the right button uh . project manager: could these be used for going to submenus marketing: user interface: yeah . yeah , so they 're used for going into and out of your submenus , yeah . project manager: or industrial designer: maybe yeah , project manager: okay . industrial designer: maybe it can be one of those , if you press down and hold for two seconds , then it brings you back one level or something . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . well , as long as we have that in mind as we 're designing it still , mm 'kay . marketing: okay , so which one are we sort of roughly looking at to address whether or not it meets our s um necessities , the yellowy one is that industrial designer: the potato ? are we leaning towards the potato ? user interface: potato . project manager: i think so . marketing: okay , well we can obviously change it after we go through each different one . industrial designer: okay . marketing: so basically what we need to do is some of the things that we 've talked about before we need to make sure that that remote actually does conform to the things that we said it was going to . industrial designer: okay . marketing: so what we sort of wan na do is that we each need to separately rank each of the following things and then i 'll tabulate an average just to make sure that it does meet that . industrial designer: okay . marketing: so we 'll just go through them one at a time and we 'll just go around and each of you can tell me on a scale of one to seven with one being really extremely true and seven being not true at all , or false , if the remote that we 've created conforms to the following criteria . so we can do this one first . first we wan na know if it meets the fancy look and feel um objective . so like in my opinion the for now at least , the yellow one is probably somewhere in the middle so i 'm gon na say it 's like a three . that 's just my opinion . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: what does each of you project manager: i i kind of think it 's it 's unique enough that i 'd give it a one or a two . marketing: okay , well give it a number , project manager: okay . marketing: sorry . project manager: i will give it a one . industrial designer: um i dunno if it 's it 's creative . i dunno if fancy is the word i would use . i dunno if any of them are fancy in i 'd say two , because c unique . marketing: okay . user interface: i 'll go for two . marketing: and two , awesome . alright , and same sort of scale for functionality , is it functional ? i think it 's extremely functional , i 'm gon na give it a one . industrial designer: yeah , one . marketing: one ? user interface: i think it 's it 's functional , it 's also pretty basic , so i 'll give it a two . marketing: okay . project manager: um functional . i think it 'll get everything done , i think it might be a little confusing at first , um , i do n't know if that 's gon na be a later one . marketing: okay . well there 's some other ones , i will address that , project manager: okay , then i 'm gon na give it a two . marketing: yeah . awesome , okay . um we wan na know next if it 's technologically innovative . project manager: did you give a functional ? marketing: yeah , she said it was one . project manager: okay . marketing: um is it technologically innovative ? mm . not really , i mean not so much , 'cause we we do n't have the lcd screen , we do n't have fancy chip . other than what it looks like , i dunno if it 's really project manager: well , the kinetic battery . industrial designer: in the battery , that 's it . marketing: i kinetic battery is a big one , so . industrial designer: how many people would notice that , though ? marketing: mm . but it project manager: but they 'll notice it after like a year , marketing: but we know it 's there . project manager: they 'll be like hey , i have never changed the battery . marketing: and if it 's made of like latex , that whole idea , that 's pretty cool . project manager: mm . just the material . marketing: i 'll give it a three . 'cause it we could 've picked a lot of features that would 've made it really industrial designer: yeah . i i would say that it 's yeah , like fancy versus creative it 's it 's different . but does that equal innovative ? i dunno . i 'll give it a three . marketing: alright . everyone else ? user interface: i 'd say it 's technologically it 's not it 's not unique , i mean it 's it 's just it is just pushbuttons um , so i i 'd give it a four . project manager: think i 'm gon na go with the four as well . marketing: mm 'kay . project manager: i really like that kinetic battery though . marketing: next , is it easy to use ? just so you know , easy to learn will be separate , project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: so do n't overlap them . industrial designer: okay . marketing: i think it 's really easy to use . i 'll give it a two . industrial designer: um i 'll give it a one . pretty hard to mess up . user interface: i 'll say one . project manager: uh let 's say two . marketing: alright . um we next wan na see if it has a spongy quality industrial designer: user interface: marketing: and if indeed it 's made of latex or rubber i it 's spongy all the way . industrial designer: project manager: give it a one . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: i wonder if it bounces when you drop it . industrial designer: ooh , that you could n't marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: industrial designer: it 'd be harder to break , project manager: mm . industrial designer: harder to lose . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'cause there would be less impact maybe , . industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah marketing: iain , what do you give it ? user interface: i 'd i 'd give it a one . marketing: alright and the next is , does it integrate some notion of fruits and vegetables ? industrial designer: user interface: uh um . marketing: well , is it gon na be yellow ? industrial designer: it it might be , 'cause that 's our corporate colour , is n't it ? project manager: that 's right , yeah , corporate colour , we did n't keep that in user interface: yeah . project manager: um well industrial designer: we might wan na keep it yellow . project manager: if we i know it would make it a little less c a little more confusing , but if we had all the buttons in black , and a design in and the outside in yellow , that 'd be our corporate one and we could also have alternative colours , one a more conservative one , one that 's more fruity . user interface: marketing: yeah , but if you had like a silvery kind of white or something . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah , project manager: um and can we have like an r_r_ inscribed on the bottom or something ? industrial designer: if we had a yellow sure . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: oh , yeah . project manager: fruity , so fruity . industrial designer: so marketing: alright , so i think it it 's industrial designer: it was inspired by the potato , so i think it 's pretty fruity . marketing: yeah . project manager: i think i it 's kind of mangoey too . marketing: industrial designer: oh , mango user interface: mangoey is better , yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yes . marketing: i industrial designer: that that user interface: i like mangoes . marketing: okay , i 'm giving it a one the mango put me over . project manager: mm . industrial designer: that 's a much more trendy than a potato marketing: what are what 's everyone 's numbers ? industrial designer: one . user interface: uh two . project manager: one . industrial designer: marketing: alright um , and does the design match the appropriate behaviour ? remember earlier we discussed that people do n't use a lot of buttons , that they use the channel flipping and the volume the most . i think we really took that into account a lot , so i 'm gon na give it a one . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , me too . user interface: uh one . marketing: did you say one , rose ? project manager: yes . marketing: okay um , also we talked earlier about r_s_i_ and wanting to prevent um any sort of like carpal tunnely kind of thing . do we think that the latex sort of grip appropriately takes that into account ? i think i 'll give it a two , 'cause i almost feel like no matter what you do , something is gon na happen . project manager: it 's gon na be hard . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah , yeah . project manager: and if it 's repetitive movement it is gon na be only four buttons that you 're constantly pushing , but um marketing: um um worth the risk , i think . project manager: i like how it fits in the hand though so i i 'd go with a two . industrial designer: yeah . i 'll i 'll say two as well . because older people that are n't used to like texting with the thumb might find it a bit at first , project manager: mm . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: but user interface: yeah i 'll i 'll say two . marketing: alright , awesome . and the ease of learning it . i know you were saying that you 're a little bit nervous about that , i dunno . it sort of reminds me of the ipod . i just got mine , i still have n't read the instruction book and i 'm doing okay , so project manager: mm . marketing: and i 'm not good at learning technology . so i 'll give it a two . industrial designer: the menu system and the the fact that multiple buttons are used for different things might be a bit confusing , but i think if it 's one it 's one of those things that it might take you five minutes to figure out , but you 'll have it afterwards . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i 'd i think i 'd give it a two i guess . user interface: i think it it 's probably a little harder then most remotes to learn , because you have to you have to use the menu system and you have to tell it what your favourite channels are industrial designer: oh , good point . user interface: and that could take a bit of learning at first , but marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: once you 've , yeah once you 'd learned how to use it , i think it is a lot easier . so i 'd i 'd give it a four . marketing: okay . project manager: i think i 'd give it a four too . it 's a pretty high learning curve , it 'll be easy once you 've done it , but industrial designer: user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . alright , um also earlier we had something about losing it and so now we 're not addressing that at all , so project manager: we we industrial designer: project manager: i think we can kind of say we addressed it with colour , but marketing: okay , so in terms of not losing it , do you think that on a scale of one to seven , how easy or hard is it to lose ? i 'm gon na i 'm gon na give it a four , 'cause i think that you can still if it 's in between somewhere where you ca n't see it , you 're kind of not gon na find it , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but anywhere else it 's gon na stand out . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: um i 'd say i 'd give it uh a three , i guess it depends on how tidy you are normally . project manager: mm i 'd give it a four . user interface: um i 'll give it a five 'cause i it would be easy to lose something like that , yeah . project manager: small too . marketing: alright , we also said simplicity , how w how well does it address just being simple ? industrial designer: simple to use or simple in design ? do you know ? marketing: i think overall , 'cause we had said before our two main things were simplicity and fashion , industrial designer: marketing: so those are the next two things we 're gon na look at . separate from fancy , like that sort of thing . industrial designer: right . marketing: um it like wants to be simple but it 's not like totally totally simple , so i 'm gon na give it a two . industrial designer: i 'm give it a three i guess . user interface: i 'll give it a two . project manager: three . marketing: alright , and fashionable ? project manager: it 's totally fashionable . i 'd give it a one . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: it 's hot , i mean it 's a mango , come on . project manager: mango . marketing: i mean how fashionable can you make a remote ? i think it 's bringing technology and fashion together real really well . industrial designer: i dunno . user interface: industrial designer: i do n't think it 's quite as fashionable as my robot remote project manager: i do like uh the little martian one . industrial designer: or alien or whatever he was . marketing: yeah , the toggle on off switch , it 's really appealing . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: number . industrial designer: um two . user interface: three . project manager: one . marketing: and does it meet our like demographic need sort of for international appeal , that whole thing ? just that it would se serve our audience . i do n't see why not . project manager: mm-hmm . i think as long if we offer in a in at least three different colour arrangements . um yeah , that 's good . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so i 'll give it a a two . industrial designer: yeah , i 'll say two . marketing: alright , did anyone have any other features that they think were important that we did n't talk about ? project manager: well um we did n't we did n't address the fact that it does need to b have a corporate logo , so let 's let 's make sure we keep that in mind that we ha that one of our colours concepts is corporate and has an r_r_ on it . industrial designer: shall we uh well i think all of them should have an r_r_ . project manager: all of them should have r_r_ , yeah . marketing: and so we 're gon na do that , so it will address it , project manager: mm-hmm . mm 'kay . marketing: fine . okay . project manager: lovely . marketing: that 's me . project manager: okay , now we 're gon na look at finances . um i have an excel sheet that we 're actually gon na calculate the cost um , so let me exit out of this first . okay um industrial designer: oh my . marketing: whoa . project manager: i know . let me one more space . gon na zoom in real quick . okay . hand dynamo . we 're using kinetic battery , industrial designer: uh we 're n using kinetic , yeah . project manager: right ? um and we 're having one per one , okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um electronics . industrial designer: single . project manager: simple . industrial designer: simple , simple rather . marketing: simple . project manager: mm 'kay . um the case . industrial designer: uh uh uh double-curved . user interface: guess it 's double-curved . it is pretty curvy . project manager: it 's very curvy , marketing: yeah . project manager: so okay . industrial designer: yeah i never did get a picture of those so i do n't really know . our case material supplements oops , we just skipped by them . marketing: well do n't we need plastic , and industrial designer: no , we we the plastic is the plastic for the inside is assumed . the supplement is marketing: provided , okay . project manager: the wood ? industrial designer: oh , i guess it was rubber rather than latex . project manager: i mean the rubber . marketing: it was rubber and special colour , right ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm , okay . marketing: do we have more than one special colour ? project manager: yeah , we 're using we 're gon na need at least two special colours . industrial designer: uh well user interface: special colours , is n't it ? project manager: um . industrial designer: i do n't know what the se the basic colour is though . marketing: per project manager: i dunno where it yeah . marketing: well , but we know that we 're having at least three colours , project manager: so let 's y say three . marketing: so industrial designer: well , are we talking about on each colour combination or are we , you know , we 'll like we 'll have yellow and black . is that two special colours ? project manager: yeah , i dunno . that i thi industrial designer: or or is white and black , then two more or project manager: i thought that would be under yours . industrial designer: uh . i guess it 's three , project manager: we 'll just say three . industrial designer: three three . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: right . project manager: maybe the r_r_ will be in colour as well , industrial designer: alright . project manager: so yeah . interface , we 're doing push buttons . and how many buttons do we have ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we have six . user interface: we 've got five . project manager: six . industrial designer: six , with the power . user interface: oh marketing: oh user interface: six . marketing: no , five . project manager: anything else ? industrial designer: yeah . no . oh , we 'll do we wa are the buttons in special colour , special f i did n't get information on project manager: oh , marketing: oh wait . project manager: buttons oh , so um . so the case material will just have one colour , right , industrial designer: well , project manager: but then the buttons will be in special colours ? industrial designer: does it marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but if we 're making multiple varieties of this is where i 'm getting confused . project manager: we 're saying per unit . industrial designer: per unit , okay , okay . marketing: yeah , per unit . project manager: okay , so each unit will only have one colour on their industrial designer: alright , and each button s project manager: but the case is could have up to thr i mean the buttons could ea could be up to three colours , 'cause that how it 's designed there . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: i like it like that . project manager: so industrial designer: yeah , okay . project manager: special form ? they 're all kind of just push button , industrial designer: no , project manager: right ? industrial designer: i think they 're fine . user interface: yeah . project manager: special material ? industrial designer: material , we want them rubber as well probably , yeah . project manager: uh . oh do i have to do it per button , do i ? industrial designer: no , i do n't think so . i think they 're project manager: okay . industrial designer: if they 're all gon na be rubber then it that 's what it matters . marketing: yeah , 'cause it would n't make sense otherwise , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: 'cause for the whole mat case material it 's only one . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it 's i mean it 's two to make it rubber . industrial designer: okay . marketing: oh wait , so maybe . project manager: thirteen point seven . marketing: industrial designer: oh oh . project manager: yeah , what can we reduce ? industrial designer: okay , let 's have our buttons all be one colour . marketing: mm , i kind of like the buttons . project manager: let 's see what that would do . it 's only gon na bring us down to thirteen point three anyway . industrial designer: alright . project manager: okay um , are we sure this is double-curved ? industrial designer: uh . project manager: maybe it 's single-curved , industrial designer: we have no idea . project manager: we have no idea . industrial designer: i dunno , i did n't get any pictures . it 's single curved . marketing: it 's single curved . industrial designer: why not ? project manager: well it 's not the yeah . okay , it 's the kinetic battery that 's kind of expensive , but we have a simple chip , single curve , marketing: project manager: case material is rubber and it 's a special colour , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: but that 's important . six buttons we have to have six buttons . industrial designer: that is important . how did it get more expensive , what did you just change ? project manager: what ? industrial designer: it was it was thirteen and now it 's fifteen . project manager: no , okay , maybe not . i do n't know what just happened . now it 's twelve . marketing: we industrial designer: user interface: what was our target price again ? project manager: twelve point five . industrial designer: twelve point five . hey hey . user interface: twelve point five . so we 're just just about there . project manager: so we 're okay , i think . industrial designer: we 're all set then . project manager: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: ish . project manager: okay , we 're all set . industrial designer: alright . project manager: um save . i saved that to our um our big shared folder , so you know . um okay , back to agenda . um are the are the costs under twelve fifty euro ? yes . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , they are . project manager: let 's move on to the project evaluation . project process . satisfaction with for example the room for creativity , leadership , teamwork , the means , any new ideas found . so i guess what we 're gon na talk about here is just evaluating how we created this project , the information we got on the news , how we used it , if we were able to um , you know , use our creativity with the information , um how how well i guess i led it , um the how well we worked together as a team , um the digital pens , the whiteboard . marketing: project manager: okay . industrial designer: well . i felt very creative . user interface: i think we 've been successful industrial designer: i enjoyed making the prototypes . user interface: in that we 've achieved almost all of the design goals that we 've set industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and we 've come up with a finished project and we just about got cost . industrial designer: i think we could 've done even better with a little bit more information , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like what 's a single-curved case , how many colours , what do colours count project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: things , but given given what we had i think that we did we did really well . um i think we worked together pretty well . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , i mean if i 'd had more market research on the fruits and vegetables , maybe we could 've taken that into account . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: industrial designer: but the fruits and vegetables , they really my creativity , so . project manager: marketing: i know , i really did , the the whole mango idea was great . industrial designer: do you think we could user interface: marketing: no , i mean i thought the pen was a little distracting for me personally , like its heaviness , and like just being so conscious of like turning the pages , i dunno . that was a bit of a distraction . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that was the last one , like i chose not to do a powerpoint 'cause i did n't think it made sense to , so i liked that i had the option to do that and just to take my own notes and that whole sort of thing . project manager: mm-hmm . i think we all made um very significant contributions , user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: i do n't think anybody dominated it , which i thought was really good , like each of us was able to um like each of you had your information and i uh i tried to facilitate it without like taking over , um industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i like our little finished products . industrial designer: can we market this as the mango remote ? marketing: they 're funny . project manager: really cute . user interface: marketing: i kind of want one . user interface: industrial designer: should we have that somewhere on the packaging ? i have a little r_r_ . marketing: i 'm trying to think of a good pun that i could add there . project manager: i know , industrial designer: project manager: let 's think of it like a little jingle . marketing: project manager: um . industrial designer: marketing: i like the r_r_ , that 's gon na be etched in . industrial designer: yes . hopefully not with just my fingernail at some point but um it 's quite a useful little gadget . all thanks to iain for the design of that one . project manager: . okay um industrial designer: mm . what did we find for new ideas ? project manager: new ideas found ? industrial designer: people should really base their remotes on fruits and vegetables . project manager: definitely . or or at least be c p creative enough to think of toggle switches mm user interface: yeah . project manager: etcetera . industrial designer: i i am really into the idea of kinetic batteries now after reading about them . project manager: oh , i 'm so excited . user interface: industrial designer: that was marketing: yeah , i did n't even know they existed . industrial designer: i i knew you can get watches that had them , like really quite expensive watches that just never need a battery , 'cause you 're always moving your wrist . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but in other things , i think it 'd be really good . project manager: i thi yeah , that 's awesome . um okay , closing . are the costs within the budget ? is the project evaluated ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: now there 's the final questionnaire and meeting summary . um so , this is the great product kids , i think we 've created something really interesting and that we have a market for it , um especially if we can produce it at twelve point three industrial designer: yeah . project manager: which we hope um yeah . make sure in your questionnaire to put down criticisms of both the process and the um the final results and . industrial designer: marketing: yeah , real reaction . project manager: i do like the martian remote . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: if we could choose more than one , that would be my second choice . marketing: oh , that would definitely be my second choice . project manager: although the tog toggle user interface: mm . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: i 'm afraid i would user interface: that 's cool . let 's all let 's all go for the yellow marketing: i would break it . i would break it . project manager: it 's cool . i think i would break it . industrial designer: it started because i wanted to have it as st as a stem user interface: break the stem off . industrial designer: and then alright , so marketing: oh that 's funny . industrial designer: is it started as a pear , but then it started looking more and more like a martian project manager: oh industrial designer: when i put the user interface: marketing: kind of looks like a penguin , like with no eye . industrial designer: take me to your leader . project manager: yeah , it 's kind of a penguin . industrial designer: marketing: i like that it stands up . project manager: mm-mm . industrial designer: wow , maybe i should market it to some remote control company now . user interface: industrial designer: so are are project manager: user interface: that was bound to happen. $ marketing: oh , sad . industrial designer: poor little thing . project manager: mm 'kay , congratulations . um . anything else to say ? marketing: nothing will come up until after our meeting 's supposed to be over , project manager: alright . marketing: its all timed . project manager: um anybody have industrial designer: oh . marketing: oh . project manager: i got more master classes , anybody else wan na like take a master 's class ? industrial designer: it 's really funny that you got spam in your work emails . marketing: user interface: project manager: yeah , but check it out . so like there are all these like links , they do n't go anywhere . industrial designer: project manager: but all that you need to keep in mind your knowledge management . um just wan na make sure you do . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: marketing: no the first one that you sent like i did n't realise that it was a joke and i was like why did she send this to us ? project manager: oh industrial designer: marketing: it 's very it 's very work relevant , project manager: it is . marketing: 'cause people send spam a lot . project manager: yes definitely industrial designer: let 's see , project manager: i 'm very sad that i did n't get any links to the corporate website . . marketing: oh here you can you can view . industrial designer: what did i get through the corporate website ? it 's just inspiration about circuit boards . marketing: you can just see what 's up . project manager: wow . marketing: yeah it 's it 's really deep . hold on . takes a little while to get excited to load . that the excel thing is pretty cool . project manager: yes . industrial designer: yeah , that is pretty neat . project manager: i love excel , marketing: here , like , basically project manager: it 's one of my favourite programs . marketing: it 's like inspiration , basically i 'm gon na give you two sentences on fashion and that kind of thing , see . you did n't miss out that much . project manager: i see , mm . industrial designer: yeah , my inspiration from from last time is the in interior of a remote control being taken apart bit by bit , talking about circuit boards . project manager: spongy . industrial designer: i learned a lot actually . user interface: mm . industrial designer: i could probably take apart a remote control now if i really needed to . marketing: oh wow . this one was cooler . i got a whole table and everything . industrial designer: now i have all about circuits and chips and transponders and i wrote it all down , because i thought it would be relevant , like all the different parts of the inside of a remote control , but then they 're like , you do n't actually need this you just need to talk about the case . marketing: that 's like mine it was like , would you prefer an lcd screen or a multifunction remote control ? and then it did n't have like any kind of table , like awesome , i 'm glad they asked that question and did n't report the result . project manager: i i thought it was a little tricky having to hand around this thing . industrial designer: it 's really interesting though . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: we had a lot of the um otherwise the technology today was kinda cool . user interface: i think . yeah . industrial designer: that was really neat how i got emails project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and user interface: we did n't we did n't use the whiteboard that much . project manager: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: although i do n't see how we could have very l at least for me user interface: industrial designer: i yeah . if i 'd gotten pictures of the different parts of the case , the different looks of the case , i would have probably drawn them up , project manager: mm . industrial designer: but marketing: 'cause we were n't like voting on anything and i think usually , like whiteboards are good , you know like crossing out ideas , or like if we had had like a brainstorming period . industrial designer: yeah , we could 've put our brainstorming stuff up there rather than just talking about it , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but with only four people it does n't really make sense . marketing: but i thought we were good orally . project manager: and with and with the powerpoint that we can all look at , like you can do all those things pretty much on powerpoint industrial designer: i think if you had a larger group marketing: get crazy . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: as that 's not as necessary to have . user interface: yeah . marketing: and these might 've made us more willing to like take notes than to like write up them here , project manager: mm . marketing: 'cause we all needed them separately , kind of on the whiteboards in this room . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: because we 're all gon na be working in different places . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: we if we were all gon na stay in here all the time , then having the notes up on the whiteboard would 've been alright , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but everyone needs their own , like specific notes , i guess . project manager: now when you were um creating your um prototypes here , did you work together or did you like do separate projects ? user interface: uh we we worked together , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: um but we were making like we sort of made different shapes and then discussed how the how the buttons might work , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: um and how we could like improve on the on the design . industrial designer: so it was a bit of both really , we just kind of started out by each taking a colour of clay and just fooling around with it and i came up with that rhombus shape project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and he came up with the sort of potatoey , mangoey shape , and then just went from there really . project manager: cool . industrial designer: it was fun . so well done with the management , i felt well managed . project manager: oh thanks . user interface: i think we did well in first of all giving our meetings the time , project manager: it 's kinda fun . user interface: and second we actually we we did a good job of making firm decisions at the ends of the meetings . project manager: mm . user interface: and i marketing: sorry . industrial designer: that happened to me all the time though . user interface: i know what happens sometimes is that you tend to sort of have meetings and then people sorta drift away without anything actually really being decided . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but i think here we got we got clear and and decisive decisive points at the end of the meetings , so that we we knew where to go on from there . industrial designer: yeah , i was quite worried at the end of the last meeting that we were n't getting we did n't really have enough information to make firm decisions , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but we were able to do it regardless , so . i 'm not usually a very decisive person , so it helped to have people say this needs to be done in five minutes . project manager: this is what we 'll do . user interface: yeah . project manager: i found that we did we could have used another five or ten minutes sometimes in the meetings . industrial designer: especially last time , user interface: yeah , for some of the meetings , yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah i think the last time we had a lot of information , but at the same time not quite enough , industrial designer: yeah , project manager: you know what i mean , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: like we we could n't answer every single question . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: um but industrial designer: right . and i i felt the first two meetings , that i was coming in with no information , project manager: mm . industrial designer: and not sort of made me really like , ooh i do n't know , throwing together powerpoint out of no no information and then last time it was like the opposite . i had so much information and so much to talk about . project manager: it was interesting what came out like later , like as i was doing the when i was doing the breakdown on the agenda that they gave me um , that more points came out from your presentation even . industrial designer: yeah . mm . project manager: um . i 'm a little i am a little disappointed that we did n't do a um something for losing the remote , because that was kind of a big point . industrial designer: yeah . that was something like in order to talk about that we would 've had to have actual knowledge about circuit boards and things like project manager: about yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: well the problem was , even when we just were creating from the excel file , there was n't like a option to select to somehow have it included , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so there was no we could be like yeah , it has it included . industrial designer: i think we were project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: there was no way for us to have project manager: considered the re industrial designer: yeah . marketing: written down that it was really there . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think we were just getting overenthusiastic with the task . project manager: well marketing: project manager: it 's interesting that they industrial designer: i think we really got into it , i mean i got into it as the day went on and i got really like , ooh i 'm designing a remote control , i dunno if that 's just me , project manager: mm-hmm , yeah . industrial designer: but project manager: it was interesting though that they put that fifty percent of people say they have frustration with losing their remote and yet they did n't provide us with information to um we were n't provided with information to discuss that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: i know that like people people have like things they can put on their keys that you press it and it 'll beep , but i but i 'm sure that would require some kind of technology industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: that i just do n't know what it is , but industrial designer: i think there are some of those like infomercial remotes that have things so you wo n't lose them . project manager: mm . industrial designer: i dunno . i mean we were talking about it and like i in my household at least , there 's only about two places that the remote is ever project manager: hmm . industrial designer: 'cause there 's only one tv and there 's only like three chairs . marketing: that 's like saying you 're never gon na lose your keys , and i always do , anyway . you 'll lose 'em in your pocket , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: like you just will forget that or you like put it down somewhere that like made sense and then not remember , project manager: mm . marketing: there 's always ways to lose things . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it d yeah , it depends on how organised you are personally , but industrial designer: yeah , or like i guess what the setup of the house is too . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but , i mean i am notorious for losing my keys , project manager: industrial designer: i just i guess i 've just never lost the remote . i put my keys in the refrigerator the other night and could n't find them . user interface: industrial designer: 'cause i was putting groceries away . marketing: that 's funny . project manager: oh . industrial designer: you you 're taking stuff from a bag and putting them in the refrigerator and then go back to my room . project manager: ca n't get in . industrial designer: ca n't get in , look all around the kitchen . definitely in the vegetable drawer . project manager: marketing: that 's funny . industrial designer: so . marketing: i always do that , leaving it in my coat , and then like using a different coat . industrial designer: mm . project manager: yep . industrial designer: but i guess it 's 'cause we do n't carry remotes around that much . marketing: yeah . ca n't really take it into the other room . industrial designer: yeah . maybe with our little robot one we could 've had him have a robot , alien , pear , whatever he is , have a little voice like , i am located marketing: industrial designer: oh a g_p_s_ system , internal g_p_s_ . marketing: user interface: marketing: oh man . here you go . project manager: we should make one that walks by itself . industrial designer: although if it 's sitting still for too long . yes i user interface: marketing: that really could get up and walk away . project manager: or or like some crazy like electro-magnet , that you push it and it 'll go zoom to the tv and stick there . industrial designer: or little or just just a wheel , you know . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: just if you like you 'd have a remote for your remote , that 'll . user interface: yeah . project manager: well , but if you could attach them to the tv , then you can . industrial designer: zoom yeah . hmm . all kinds of possibilities . project manager: mm . okay . sorry , i 'm just um trying to update my minutes . i decided to you know how i sent you the email saying that powerpoint minutes will be complimentary , rather than like repeating them . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: just gon na make i 'm making full minutes , so that it 'll include all of the agenda and all that . industrial designer: oh . project manager: 'cause that seems a little more useful . industrial designer: wow . 'cause you 've had like the most typing and organising to do . project manager: but i did n't have like information to sloth through either , so industrial designer: yeah , i guess how much of your powerpoint was already done for you , every meeting . project manager: most of it , mm-hmm . i added slides , um i added a couple slides each time , industrial designer: oh . project manager: but that was about it . industrial designer: okay . yeah , i did n't even think about adding slides , 'cause i would just get slides with titles on them project manager: mm . industrial designer: and fill them all in w did n't even think about adding more . project manager: well , the thing was they would provide y an agenda with s like several points , but it would n't have a slide for each point . and that 's the only way i remember that i need to go other that point . industrial designer: ah yeah . . project manager: i know personally when i do powerpoint , that 's what i do and so i had it once , even if it was just like the title of it , like the three presentations , and i would do your three . industrial designer: right . marketing: you have you have to have the slogan on it or can it just be like project manager: the slogan on it ? industrial designer: no , no , definitely not . project manager: no no no . marketing: okay good . industrial designer: we marketing: 'cause i was like , it could go around the outside . industrial designer: no , i do n't think we need to user interface: project manager: i think we just need the um the r_r_ , industrial designer: i think the r_ and r_ , especially if the yellow and black one . project manager: yeah . marketing: is it yellow and blue ? industrial designer: or yellow and blue . lem me go to the web page . project manager: yeah , i was just kinda going by the web page , 'cause they did n't give me any clear , like yellow , grey , or . marketing: oh i guess it is black , grey . grey is better than black , does n't look so bumblebeeish . project manager: i do n't really like yellow in general . marketing: hey now i understand the random like newsclippings . project manager: but it industrial designer: finish meeting now . marketing: project manager: was n't it interesting that um i thought it was interesting that our market marketing um expert did not agree with the marketing um marketing: yes . project manager: the marketing choices , industrial designer: user interface: project manager: you know , like industrial designer: marketing: i will project manager: that was a bit of a conflict . marketing: i just feel like if you 're really doing like a a really big market evaluation , you would n't just have like one set of source , industrial designer: marketing: it 's kind of an they were so not backed up , it would just be a sentence like we did a survey , this is what people said . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: s mm , i dunno . project manager: people are stupid . industrial designer: i guess it i it sort of a grey , is n't it ? yellow and grey , but then the slogan 's in blue . marketing: well we got some grey and we got some blue buttons , we 're good . industrial designer: yeah . well we do n't have the right colour clay anyway . project manager: maybe , like i do n't know . that could always be . industrial designer: well we 're not , sadly , going to actually be producing this , so . project manager: oh . marketing: if they ever come out with potato industrial designer: potato mango shaped remotes . marketing: i 'm gon na have to project manager: i 'm claiming it intellectual property . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i ca n't believe a whole day is gone . i do n't feel like it 's been that long . marketing: i know . industrial designer: get sucked in . mm i have n't gotten questionnaire eight yet .

the group had an evaluation on the prototype after a presentation on it . they gave high scores in turns of product creativity , easy to use , integration of fruits , appropriate behaviour , simplicity and fashion . they gave a medium score in turns or technological innovation , ease of learning and not easy to lose .

why did the group think of technology innovation when discussing the evaluation criteria ? </s> project manager: okay um , welcome to our detailed design meeting . i 'm pretty excited . let 's start it 's approximately fifteen forty or something like that . okay um the agenda we 're gon na do an opening and then um i 'll talk about the minutes from the last meeting , what we d discussed um , then we 'll have the prototype presentation and a look at the evaluation criteria . we 'll look at the finances and finally a do a production evaluation and close . so , starting off with the um last the last one , oh i do n't have it here um , but we talked about energy , we 're gon na use a kinetic battery um , we want to use a simple chip , because we 're not gon na need a a shuffle um , we 're gon na need a scroll um , we 're choosing a latex case w in fruity colours that 's curved and um we 're using push buttons uh with a supplement of an on-screen menu . and it sounded like we had set um like eight or nine buttons , including five pre-set channels . okay ? let 's do the look and feel design presentation first . user interface: right , do you wan na start ? industrial designer: right , well we made three different prototypes and i guess we 'll start with with this one . um we have our colours not are not fixed , but this is the general shape . um it 's you hold it sort of either like like this in your left hand or you switch it over and uh it 's easily adaptable to either hand . you can push the buttons with your thumb like a mobile phone , or you can push them with your index finger of your other hand , or even i mean there 's a whole variety , you can hold it like this and press it with your same index finger . uh we have the on off button at the tip , very visible , very big . we have our up and down buttons , which are also gon na be our channel selectors , and we have our little menu button here . if you push if you 're just pushing these normally , they 're the menu buttons , if uh the volume buttons rather . if you press select once , they become channel changing buttons . if we press select three times , the menu with the other features and pro possibly also with your tv channel choices shows up , and you have your five presets down here . um if people wan na grab hold of that , see how it feels in your hand . that 's our number one prototype . um do you wan na present the potato , project manager: like a little lightning in it . industrial designer: or shall i present the martian ? user interface: okay , project manager: the little lightning bolt in it , very cute . user interface: um what we call that one the rhombus , marketing: i could project manager: the v the rhombus rhombus ? user interface: uh the rhombus . industrial designer: that 's the rhombus , yep . user interface: um this one is known as the potato , uh it 's industrial designer: user interface: it 's a marketing: user interface: how can i present it ? it 's an ergonomic shape , so it it fits in your hand nicely . um it 's designed to be used either in your left hand or or in your right hand . um i 've gone here just for just for four buttons on this one . um the two blue buttons here are for adjusting the volume . so you 've got volume up and volume down on the other side here . um the red ones are for uh changing channels , channel up and channel down and that 's um moves between your favourite channels that you 've selected . uh this middle button here brings up the on-screen menu and when you 're working in the on-screen menu you use the other four buttons to navigate around the menu system and the middle button uh to select and that 's basically it , that 's the potato . project manager: um on , off ? user interface: uh that would be one of your channels , basically , project manager: okay . user interface: so like channel zero would be t to switch switch the machine off , project manager: yeah we turn it off . user interface: yeah . marketing: could the middle button of the on-screen menu function as a power button ? user interface: um not really , industrial designer: user interface: it would make it hard to turn the machine off , to turn your tv off . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: if you pressed and held it maybe . user interface: yeah yeah , that that 'd be one way of doing it , yeah . that 'd work , yeah . marketing: if you like held it down , that would be on off . industrial designer: yeah . on off , that 's a possibility , yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and then finally we have um the martian or the pear , either way . um it 's a bit different , just a little bit more of a creative feel . uh you have the on off toggle stem on the top . we have the five preset seeds . project manager: industrial designer: and then you have on the sides to make it a little bit more three-dimensional , you have your channel changing , volume changing buttons and your menu button right here in the middle . so , that 's for your consideration as well , plus it 's an interesting talking point to have standing up . user interface: let 's pass . industrial designer: we figured it could stand up like this on your table , if you wanted it to , if i made the bot the bottom flat . project manager: uh-huh . marketing: sorry , what 's the yellow one in the middle , industrial designer: uh the menu select button . marketing: i forgot . project manager: very interesting . i think that one 's my favourite . industrial designer: user interface: so that 's so that 's our three prototypes . um basically , in terms of making decisions , what we 'd need to do is first of all decide on a form uh which of the three different shapes we want , then decide what kind of button layout we want , how many buttons , and then to choose what colours we want to make the buttons and if we wan na put any text on the device , like label on the buttons or put a brand name or or a logo on it or whatever . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: we were we were thinking that normally we 'd go for fruity colours , but maybe we 're also thinking that your sort of middle aged man , for an example customer , might not want a fruity coloured remote , so m maybe we 'd have one version that 's a bit toned down , project manager: mm 'kay . industrial designer: maybe with with less contrasts on it . yeah , something still a little bright to make it hard to lose , but user interface: would yeah , but we do n't want it to look like a kids ' toy . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: now that was one thing that we brought up over email . i do n't know if you picked up your email , but um the f the um feature that we considered for it not getting lost . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: right . well we were we were talking about that a little bit when we got that email and we think that each of these are so distinctive , that it it 's not just like another piece of technology around your house . it 's gon na be somewhere that it can be seen . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so we 're we 're not thinking that it 's gon na be as critical to have the loss marketing: but if it 's like under covers or like in a couch you still ca n't see it . project manager: it 's really would it be very difficult to um just have an external device that like i dunno , you tape to your to your tv um that when you press it you ha a little light beep goes off ? do you think that would be conceptually possible ? industrial designer: i think user interface: i think it would be difficult technologically , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: because if your if your remote 's lost it 's probably under the settee and in that case you ca n't you ca n't send an infrared sing signal to it to find it , project manager: mm . user interface: s so it 's i 'm not quite sure how it would work project manager: that 's true , mm 'kay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then i wonder if it 's if it 's more just a gimmick then anything else . uh i mean ho how many times do you really , seriously lose your remote control and would would a device like that actually help you to find it ? industrial designer: there might be something that you can do in the circuit board and the chip to make it make a noise or something , but it would take a lot more development than we have this afternoon . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , that 's a fair evaluation . getting lost . um we so we do we 've decided not to worry about that for now . okay 'cause well , the designs are very bright , so you 're right , they 're gon na stick out , but um industrial designer: so d do people have a preference as far as feel and functionality ? um . marketing: i feel like this is simil or it 's sort of what already exists so if we 're trying to think of something sort of like new and fun , even though this is like what you 're init i 'm initially drawn to , just 'cause it 's like comfortable and like not different . i sort of like this one , like i i do n't know why , it just it 's like small but still sort of like cute looking , i dunno . but i also like the b the side buttons on that one , like i think that 's kind of neat . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but i dunno how much any of this has to do with the fashionable , sort of cool looking thing that we also need to focus on . project manager: could we maybe have like an extra button on the top for on off ? so then w we would n't have to have like a dual function ? industrial designer: mm yeah , user interface: yeah , it 's possible , yeah , yeah . marketing: ah , industrial designer: that 's good , that 's good . marketing: there we go . industrial designer: here , stick it on . user interface: put an extra the button on . marketing: project manager: sure . industrial designer: project manager: um uh why do n't we do a product evaluation using your criteria , if you 've developed some ? marketing: well do we w like i think we 're supposed to have one that we do it for . project manager: oh okay . okay . marketing: that was industrial designer: so where marketing: i was a little vague on what exactly i 'm supposed to do , but let me i have to like write something on the whiteboard , so . project manager: okay . do you need this industrial designer: project manager: or just write on the white board ? marketing: no , i actually do n't have like a powerpointy thing , project manager: okay . industrial designer: right . marketing: 'cause i think it would be redundant . industrial designer: okay . marketing: i dunno . project manager: it 's kind of like uh like a joystick kind of thing , industrial designer: ooh . project manager: you know , user interface: cool . project manager: kinda push it . industrial designer: hey . project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: project manager: maybe a little smaller than that . industrial designer: no , i kinda like it . user interface: industrial designer: that 's hard to miss . user interface: it makes look more fruity as well . project manager: oh it does , industrial designer: project manager: it 's kind of like industrial designer: user interface: it 's like a deformed foot , i dunno . project manager: there it could have a stem like that , 'cause i do l kind of like the stem . industrial designer: like user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . it almost helps you ge keep a grip too , 'cause it goes in between fingers . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: interesting . project manager: i like this one . industrial designer: okay , project manager: variety of colours are nice . industrial designer: is that where people are leaning then , the potato ? i like the idea of the project manager: i think i 'm leaning towards the potato . industrial designer: i mean that 's really gotten the simplicity of the buttons down , that one . project manager: mm-hmm . i am worried about like um using a menu . um in that like i withing menus there are submenus , and so how do you get back to the main menu ? industrial designer: hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: well that on the ipod , for example , you just every time you wan na go back you hit the menu button again and it brings you back one level . project manager: but that has a menu button separate from a select button , whereas if this one 's both the menu and the select button ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: good point . user interface: this is , it 's the up and down buttons are used for scrolling up and down for a list of choices . project manager: okay . user interface: you find the choice that you want and you press uh you press the right button uh . project manager: could these be used for going to submenus marketing: user interface: yeah . yeah , so they 're used for going into and out of your submenus , yeah . project manager: or industrial designer: maybe yeah , project manager: okay . industrial designer: maybe it can be one of those , if you press down and hold for two seconds , then it brings you back one level or something . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . well , as long as we have that in mind as we 're designing it still , mm 'kay . marketing: okay , so which one are we sort of roughly looking at to address whether or not it meets our s um necessities , the yellowy one is that industrial designer: the potato ? are we leaning towards the potato ? user interface: potato . project manager: i think so . marketing: okay , well we can obviously change it after we go through each different one . industrial designer: okay . marketing: so basically what we need to do is some of the things that we 've talked about before we need to make sure that that remote actually does conform to the things that we said it was going to . industrial designer: okay . marketing: so what we sort of wan na do is that we each need to separately rank each of the following things and then i 'll tabulate an average just to make sure that it does meet that . industrial designer: okay . marketing: so we 'll just go through them one at a time and we 'll just go around and each of you can tell me on a scale of one to seven with one being really extremely true and seven being not true at all , or false , if the remote that we 've created conforms to the following criteria . so we can do this one first . first we wan na know if it meets the fancy look and feel um objective . so like in my opinion the for now at least , the yellow one is probably somewhere in the middle so i 'm gon na say it 's like a three . that 's just my opinion . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: what does each of you project manager: i i kind of think it 's it 's unique enough that i 'd give it a one or a two . marketing: okay , well give it a number , project manager: okay . marketing: sorry . project manager: i will give it a one . industrial designer: um i dunno if it 's it 's creative . i dunno if fancy is the word i would use . i dunno if any of them are fancy in i 'd say two , because c unique . marketing: okay . user interface: i 'll go for two . marketing: and two , awesome . alright , and same sort of scale for functionality , is it functional ? i think it 's extremely functional , i 'm gon na give it a one . industrial designer: yeah , one . marketing: one ? user interface: i think it 's it 's functional , it 's also pretty basic , so i 'll give it a two . marketing: okay . project manager: um functional . i think it 'll get everything done , i think it might be a little confusing at first , um , i do n't know if that 's gon na be a later one . marketing: okay . well there 's some other ones , i will address that , project manager: okay , then i 'm gon na give it a two . marketing: yeah . awesome , okay . um we wan na know next if it 's technologically innovative . project manager: did you give a functional ? marketing: yeah , she said it was one . project manager: okay . marketing: um is it technologically innovative ? mm . not really , i mean not so much , 'cause we we do n't have the lcd screen , we do n't have fancy chip . other than what it looks like , i dunno if it 's really project manager: well , the kinetic battery . industrial designer: in the battery , that 's it . marketing: i kinetic battery is a big one , so . industrial designer: how many people would notice that , though ? marketing: mm . but it project manager: but they 'll notice it after like a year , marketing: but we know it 's there . project manager: they 'll be like hey , i have never changed the battery . marketing: and if it 's made of like latex , that whole idea , that 's pretty cool . project manager: mm . just the material . marketing: i 'll give it a three . 'cause it we could 've picked a lot of features that would 've made it really industrial designer: yeah . i i would say that it 's yeah , like fancy versus creative it 's it 's different . but does that equal innovative ? i dunno . i 'll give it a three . marketing: alright . everyone else ? user interface: i 'd say it 's technologically it 's not it 's not unique , i mean it 's it 's just it is just pushbuttons um , so i i 'd give it a four . project manager: think i 'm gon na go with the four as well . marketing: mm 'kay . project manager: i really like that kinetic battery though . marketing: next , is it easy to use ? just so you know , easy to learn will be separate , project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: so do n't overlap them . industrial designer: okay . marketing: i think it 's really easy to use . i 'll give it a two . industrial designer: um i 'll give it a one . pretty hard to mess up . user interface: i 'll say one . project manager: uh let 's say two . marketing: alright . um we next wan na see if it has a spongy quality industrial designer: user interface: marketing: and if indeed it 's made of latex or rubber i it 's spongy all the way . industrial designer: project manager: give it a one . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: i wonder if it bounces when you drop it . industrial designer: ooh , that you could n't marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: industrial designer: it 'd be harder to break , project manager: mm . industrial designer: harder to lose . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'cause there would be less impact maybe , . industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah marketing: iain , what do you give it ? user interface: i 'd i 'd give it a one . marketing: alright and the next is , does it integrate some notion of fruits and vegetables ? industrial designer: user interface: uh um . marketing: well , is it gon na be yellow ? industrial designer: it it might be , 'cause that 's our corporate colour , is n't it ? project manager: that 's right , yeah , corporate colour , we did n't keep that in user interface: yeah . project manager: um well industrial designer: we might wan na keep it yellow . project manager: if we i know it would make it a little less c a little more confusing , but if we had all the buttons in black , and a design in and the outside in yellow , that 'd be our corporate one and we could also have alternative colours , one a more conservative one , one that 's more fruity . user interface: marketing: yeah , but if you had like a silvery kind of white or something . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah , project manager: um and can we have like an r_r_ inscribed on the bottom or something ? industrial designer: if we had a yellow sure . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: oh , yeah . project manager: fruity , so fruity . industrial designer: so marketing: alright , so i think it it 's industrial designer: it was inspired by the potato , so i think it 's pretty fruity . marketing: yeah . project manager: i think i it 's kind of mangoey too . marketing: industrial designer: oh , mango user interface: mangoey is better , yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yes . marketing: i industrial designer: that that user interface: i like mangoes . marketing: okay , i 'm giving it a one the mango put me over . project manager: mm . industrial designer: that 's a much more trendy than a potato marketing: what are what 's everyone 's numbers ? industrial designer: one . user interface: uh two . project manager: one . industrial designer: marketing: alright um , and does the design match the appropriate behaviour ? remember earlier we discussed that people do n't use a lot of buttons , that they use the channel flipping and the volume the most . i think we really took that into account a lot , so i 'm gon na give it a one . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , me too . user interface: uh one . marketing: did you say one , rose ? project manager: yes . marketing: okay um , also we talked earlier about r_s_i_ and wanting to prevent um any sort of like carpal tunnely kind of thing . do we think that the latex sort of grip appropriately takes that into account ? i think i 'll give it a two , 'cause i almost feel like no matter what you do , something is gon na happen . project manager: it 's gon na be hard . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah , yeah . project manager: and if it 's repetitive movement it is gon na be only four buttons that you 're constantly pushing , but um marketing: um um worth the risk , i think . project manager: i like how it fits in the hand though so i i 'd go with a two . industrial designer: yeah . i 'll i 'll say two as well . because older people that are n't used to like texting with the thumb might find it a bit at first , project manager: mm . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: but user interface: yeah i 'll i 'll say two . marketing: alright , awesome . and the ease of learning it . i know you were saying that you 're a little bit nervous about that , i dunno . it sort of reminds me of the ipod . i just got mine , i still have n't read the instruction book and i 'm doing okay , so project manager: mm . marketing: and i 'm not good at learning technology . so i 'll give it a two . industrial designer: the menu system and the the fact that multiple buttons are used for different things might be a bit confusing , but i think if it 's one it 's one of those things that it might take you five minutes to figure out , but you 'll have it afterwards . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i 'd i think i 'd give it a two i guess . user interface: i think it it 's probably a little harder then most remotes to learn , because you have to you have to use the menu system and you have to tell it what your favourite channels are industrial designer: oh , good point . user interface: and that could take a bit of learning at first , but marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: once you 've , yeah once you 'd learned how to use it , i think it is a lot easier . so i 'd i 'd give it a four . marketing: okay . project manager: i think i 'd give it a four too . it 's a pretty high learning curve , it 'll be easy once you 've done it , but industrial designer: user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . alright , um also earlier we had something about losing it and so now we 're not addressing that at all , so project manager: we we industrial designer: project manager: i think we can kind of say we addressed it with colour , but marketing: okay , so in terms of not losing it , do you think that on a scale of one to seven , how easy or hard is it to lose ? i 'm gon na i 'm gon na give it a four , 'cause i think that you can still if it 's in between somewhere where you ca n't see it , you 're kind of not gon na find it , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but anywhere else it 's gon na stand out . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: um i 'd say i 'd give it uh a three , i guess it depends on how tidy you are normally . project manager: mm i 'd give it a four . user interface: um i 'll give it a five 'cause i it would be easy to lose something like that , yeah . project manager: small too . marketing: alright , we also said simplicity , how w how well does it address just being simple ? industrial designer: simple to use or simple in design ? do you know ? marketing: i think overall , 'cause we had said before our two main things were simplicity and fashion , industrial designer: marketing: so those are the next two things we 're gon na look at . separate from fancy , like that sort of thing . industrial designer: right . marketing: um it like wants to be simple but it 's not like totally totally simple , so i 'm gon na give it a two . industrial designer: i 'm give it a three i guess . user interface: i 'll give it a two . project manager: three . marketing: alright , and fashionable ? project manager: it 's totally fashionable . i 'd give it a one . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: it 's hot , i mean it 's a mango , come on . project manager: mango . marketing: i mean how fashionable can you make a remote ? i think it 's bringing technology and fashion together real really well . industrial designer: i dunno . user interface: industrial designer: i do n't think it 's quite as fashionable as my robot remote project manager: i do like uh the little martian one . industrial designer: or alien or whatever he was . marketing: yeah , the toggle on off switch , it 's really appealing . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: number . industrial designer: um two . user interface: three . project manager: one . marketing: and does it meet our like demographic need sort of for international appeal , that whole thing ? just that it would se serve our audience . i do n't see why not . project manager: mm-hmm . i think as long if we offer in a in at least three different colour arrangements . um yeah , that 's good . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so i 'll give it a a two . industrial designer: yeah , i 'll say two . marketing: alright , did anyone have any other features that they think were important that we did n't talk about ? project manager: well um we did n't we did n't address the fact that it does need to b have a corporate logo , so let 's let 's make sure we keep that in mind that we ha that one of our colours concepts is corporate and has an r_r_ on it . industrial designer: shall we uh well i think all of them should have an r_r_ . project manager: all of them should have r_r_ , yeah . marketing: and so we 're gon na do that , so it will address it , project manager: mm-hmm . mm 'kay . marketing: fine . okay . project manager: lovely . marketing: that 's me . project manager: okay , now we 're gon na look at finances . um i have an excel sheet that we 're actually gon na calculate the cost um , so let me exit out of this first . okay um industrial designer: oh my . marketing: whoa . project manager: i know . let me one more space . gon na zoom in real quick . okay . hand dynamo . we 're using kinetic battery , industrial designer: uh we 're n using kinetic , yeah . project manager: right ? um and we 're having one per one , okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um electronics . industrial designer: single . project manager: simple . industrial designer: simple , simple rather . marketing: simple . project manager: mm 'kay . um the case . industrial designer: uh uh uh double-curved . user interface: guess it 's double-curved . it is pretty curvy . project manager: it 's very curvy , marketing: yeah . project manager: so okay . industrial designer: yeah i never did get a picture of those so i do n't really know . our case material supplements oops , we just skipped by them . marketing: well do n't we need plastic , and industrial designer: no , we we the plastic is the plastic for the inside is assumed . the supplement is marketing: provided , okay . project manager: the wood ? industrial designer: oh , i guess it was rubber rather than latex . project manager: i mean the rubber . marketing: it was rubber and special colour , right ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm , okay . marketing: do we have more than one special colour ? project manager: yeah , we 're using we 're gon na need at least two special colours . industrial designer: uh well user interface: special colours , is n't it ? project manager: um . industrial designer: i do n't know what the se the basic colour is though . marketing: per project manager: i dunno where it yeah . marketing: well , but we know that we 're having at least three colours , project manager: so let 's y say three . marketing: so industrial designer: well , are we talking about on each colour combination or are we , you know , we 'll like we 'll have yellow and black . is that two special colours ? project manager: yeah , i dunno . that i thi industrial designer: or or is white and black , then two more or project manager: i thought that would be under yours . industrial designer: uh . i guess it 's three , project manager: we 'll just say three . industrial designer: three three . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: right . project manager: maybe the r_r_ will be in colour as well , industrial designer: alright . project manager: so yeah . interface , we 're doing push buttons . and how many buttons do we have ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we have six . user interface: we 've got five . project manager: six . industrial designer: six , with the power . user interface: oh marketing: oh user interface: six . marketing: no , five . project manager: anything else ? industrial designer: yeah . no . oh , we 'll do we wa are the buttons in special colour , special f i did n't get information on project manager: oh , marketing: oh wait . project manager: buttons oh , so um . so the case material will just have one colour , right , industrial designer: well , project manager: but then the buttons will be in special colours ? industrial designer: does it marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but if we 're making multiple varieties of this is where i 'm getting confused . project manager: we 're saying per unit . industrial designer: per unit , okay , okay . marketing: yeah , per unit . project manager: okay , so each unit will only have one colour on their industrial designer: alright , and each button s project manager: but the case is could have up to thr i mean the buttons could ea could be up to three colours , 'cause that how it 's designed there . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: i like it like that . project manager: so industrial designer: yeah , okay . project manager: special form ? they 're all kind of just push button , industrial designer: no , project manager: right ? industrial designer: i think they 're fine . user interface: yeah . project manager: special material ? industrial designer: material , we want them rubber as well probably , yeah . project manager: uh . oh do i have to do it per button , do i ? industrial designer: no , i do n't think so . i think they 're project manager: okay . industrial designer: if they 're all gon na be rubber then it that 's what it matters . marketing: yeah , 'cause it would n't make sense otherwise , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: 'cause for the whole mat case material it 's only one . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it 's i mean it 's two to make it rubber . industrial designer: okay . marketing: oh wait , so maybe . project manager: thirteen point seven . marketing: industrial designer: oh oh . project manager: yeah , what can we reduce ? industrial designer: okay , let 's have our buttons all be one colour . marketing: mm , i kind of like the buttons . project manager: let 's see what that would do . it 's only gon na bring us down to thirteen point three anyway . industrial designer: alright . project manager: okay um , are we sure this is double-curved ? industrial designer: uh . project manager: maybe it 's single-curved , industrial designer: we have no idea . project manager: we have no idea . industrial designer: i dunno , i did n't get any pictures . it 's single curved . marketing: it 's single curved . industrial designer: why not ? project manager: well it 's not the yeah . okay , it 's the kinetic battery that 's kind of expensive , but we have a simple chip , single curve , marketing: project manager: case material is rubber and it 's a special colour , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: but that 's important . six buttons we have to have six buttons . industrial designer: that is important . how did it get more expensive , what did you just change ? project manager: what ? industrial designer: it was it was thirteen and now it 's fifteen . project manager: no , okay , maybe not . i do n't know what just happened . now it 's twelve . marketing: we industrial designer: user interface: what was our target price again ? project manager: twelve point five . industrial designer: twelve point five . hey hey . user interface: twelve point five . so we 're just just about there . project manager: so we 're okay , i think . industrial designer: we 're all set then . project manager: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: ish . project manager: okay , we 're all set . industrial designer: alright . project manager: um save . i saved that to our um our big shared folder , so you know . um okay , back to agenda . um are the are the costs under twelve fifty euro ? yes . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , they are . project manager: let 's move on to the project evaluation . project process . satisfaction with for example the room for creativity , leadership , teamwork , the means , any new ideas found . so i guess what we 're gon na talk about here is just evaluating how we created this project , the information we got on the news , how we used it , if we were able to um , you know , use our creativity with the information , um how how well i guess i led it , um the how well we worked together as a team , um the digital pens , the whiteboard . marketing: project manager: okay . industrial designer: well . i felt very creative . user interface: i think we 've been successful industrial designer: i enjoyed making the prototypes . user interface: in that we 've achieved almost all of the design goals that we 've set industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and we 've come up with a finished project and we just about got cost . industrial designer: i think we could 've done even better with a little bit more information , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like what 's a single-curved case , how many colours , what do colours count project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: things , but given given what we had i think that we did we did really well . um i think we worked together pretty well . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , i mean if i 'd had more market research on the fruits and vegetables , maybe we could 've taken that into account . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: industrial designer: but the fruits and vegetables , they really my creativity , so . project manager: marketing: i know , i really did , the the whole mango idea was great . industrial designer: do you think we could user interface: marketing: no , i mean i thought the pen was a little distracting for me personally , like its heaviness , and like just being so conscious of like turning the pages , i dunno . that was a bit of a distraction . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that was the last one , like i chose not to do a powerpoint 'cause i did n't think it made sense to , so i liked that i had the option to do that and just to take my own notes and that whole sort of thing . project manager: mm-hmm . i think we all made um very significant contributions , user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: i do n't think anybody dominated it , which i thought was really good , like each of us was able to um like each of you had your information and i uh i tried to facilitate it without like taking over , um industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i like our little finished products . industrial designer: can we market this as the mango remote ? marketing: they 're funny . project manager: really cute . user interface: marketing: i kind of want one . user interface: industrial designer: should we have that somewhere on the packaging ? i have a little r_r_ . marketing: i 'm trying to think of a good pun that i could add there . project manager: i know , industrial designer: project manager: let 's think of it like a little jingle . marketing: project manager: um . industrial designer: marketing: i like the r_r_ , that 's gon na be etched in . industrial designer: yes . hopefully not with just my fingernail at some point but um it 's quite a useful little gadget . all thanks to iain for the design of that one . project manager: . okay um industrial designer: mm . what did we find for new ideas ? project manager: new ideas found ? industrial designer: people should really base their remotes on fruits and vegetables . project manager: definitely . or or at least be c p creative enough to think of toggle switches mm user interface: yeah . project manager: etcetera . industrial designer: i i am really into the idea of kinetic batteries now after reading about them . project manager: oh , i 'm so excited . user interface: industrial designer: that was marketing: yeah , i did n't even know they existed . industrial designer: i i knew you can get watches that had them , like really quite expensive watches that just never need a battery , 'cause you 're always moving your wrist . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but in other things , i think it 'd be really good . project manager: i thi yeah , that 's awesome . um okay , closing . are the costs within the budget ? is the project evaluated ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: now there 's the final questionnaire and meeting summary . um so , this is the great product kids , i think we 've created something really interesting and that we have a market for it , um especially if we can produce it at twelve point three industrial designer: yeah . project manager: which we hope um yeah . make sure in your questionnaire to put down criticisms of both the process and the um the final results and . industrial designer: marketing: yeah , real reaction . project manager: i do like the martian remote . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: if we could choose more than one , that would be my second choice . marketing: oh , that would definitely be my second choice . project manager: although the tog toggle user interface: mm . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: i 'm afraid i would user interface: that 's cool . let 's all let 's all go for the yellow marketing: i would break it . i would break it . project manager: it 's cool . i think i would break it . industrial designer: it started because i wanted to have it as st as a stem user interface: break the stem off . industrial designer: and then alright , so marketing: oh that 's funny . industrial designer: is it started as a pear , but then it started looking more and more like a martian project manager: oh industrial designer: when i put the user interface: marketing: kind of looks like a penguin , like with no eye . industrial designer: take me to your leader . project manager: yeah , it 's kind of a penguin . industrial designer: marketing: i like that it stands up . project manager: mm-mm . industrial designer: wow , maybe i should market it to some remote control company now . user interface: industrial designer: so are are project manager: user interface: that was bound to happen. $ marketing: oh , sad . industrial designer: poor little thing . project manager: mm 'kay , congratulations . um . anything else to say ? marketing: nothing will come up until after our meeting 's supposed to be over , project manager: alright . marketing: its all timed . project manager: um anybody have industrial designer: oh . marketing: oh . project manager: i got more master classes , anybody else wan na like take a master 's class ? industrial designer: it 's really funny that you got spam in your work emails . marketing: user interface: project manager: yeah , but check it out . so like there are all these like links , they do n't go anywhere . industrial designer: project manager: but all that you need to keep in mind your knowledge management . um just wan na make sure you do . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: marketing: no the first one that you sent like i did n't realise that it was a joke and i was like why did she send this to us ? project manager: oh industrial designer: marketing: it 's very it 's very work relevant , project manager: it is . marketing: 'cause people send spam a lot . project manager: yes definitely industrial designer: let 's see , project manager: i 'm very sad that i did n't get any links to the corporate website . . marketing: oh here you can you can view . industrial designer: what did i get through the corporate website ? it 's just inspiration about circuit boards . marketing: you can just see what 's up . project manager: wow . marketing: yeah it 's it 's really deep . hold on . takes a little while to get excited to load . that the excel thing is pretty cool . project manager: yes . industrial designer: yeah , that is pretty neat . project manager: i love excel , marketing: here , like , basically project manager: it 's one of my favourite programs . marketing: it 's like inspiration , basically i 'm gon na give you two sentences on fashion and that kind of thing , see . you did n't miss out that much . project manager: i see , mm . industrial designer: yeah , my inspiration from from last time is the in interior of a remote control being taken apart bit by bit , talking about circuit boards . project manager: spongy . industrial designer: i learned a lot actually . user interface: mm . industrial designer: i could probably take apart a remote control now if i really needed to . marketing: oh wow . this one was cooler . i got a whole table and everything . industrial designer: now i have all about circuits and chips and transponders and i wrote it all down , because i thought it would be relevant , like all the different parts of the inside of a remote control , but then they 're like , you do n't actually need this you just need to talk about the case . marketing: that 's like mine it was like , would you prefer an lcd screen or a multifunction remote control ? and then it did n't have like any kind of table , like awesome , i 'm glad they asked that question and did n't report the result . project manager: i i thought it was a little tricky having to hand around this thing . industrial designer: it 's really interesting though . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: we had a lot of the um otherwise the technology today was kinda cool . user interface: i think . yeah . industrial designer: that was really neat how i got emails project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and user interface: we did n't we did n't use the whiteboard that much . project manager: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: although i do n't see how we could have very l at least for me user interface: industrial designer: i yeah . if i 'd gotten pictures of the different parts of the case , the different looks of the case , i would have probably drawn them up , project manager: mm . industrial designer: but marketing: 'cause we were n't like voting on anything and i think usually , like whiteboards are good , you know like crossing out ideas , or like if we had had like a brainstorming period . industrial designer: yeah , we could 've put our brainstorming stuff up there rather than just talking about it , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but with only four people it does n't really make sense . marketing: but i thought we were good orally . project manager: and with and with the powerpoint that we can all look at , like you can do all those things pretty much on powerpoint industrial designer: i think if you had a larger group marketing: get crazy . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: as that 's not as necessary to have . user interface: yeah . marketing: and these might 've made us more willing to like take notes than to like write up them here , project manager: mm . marketing: 'cause we all needed them separately , kind of on the whiteboards in this room . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: because we 're all gon na be working in different places . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: we if we were all gon na stay in here all the time , then having the notes up on the whiteboard would 've been alright , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but everyone needs their own , like specific notes , i guess . project manager: now when you were um creating your um prototypes here , did you work together or did you like do separate projects ? user interface: uh we we worked together , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: um but we were making like we sort of made different shapes and then discussed how the how the buttons might work , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: um and how we could like improve on the on the design . industrial designer: so it was a bit of both really , we just kind of started out by each taking a colour of clay and just fooling around with it and i came up with that rhombus shape project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and he came up with the sort of potatoey , mangoey shape , and then just went from there really . project manager: cool . industrial designer: it was fun . so well done with the management , i felt well managed . project manager: oh thanks . user interface: i think we did well in first of all giving our meetings the time , project manager: it 's kinda fun . user interface: and second we actually we we did a good job of making firm decisions at the ends of the meetings . project manager: mm . user interface: and i marketing: sorry . industrial designer: that happened to me all the time though . user interface: i know what happens sometimes is that you tend to sort of have meetings and then people sorta drift away without anything actually really being decided . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but i think here we got we got clear and and decisive decisive points at the end of the meetings , so that we we knew where to go on from there . industrial designer: yeah , i was quite worried at the end of the last meeting that we were n't getting we did n't really have enough information to make firm decisions , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but we were able to do it regardless , so . i 'm not usually a very decisive person , so it helped to have people say this needs to be done in five minutes . project manager: this is what we 'll do . user interface: yeah . project manager: i found that we did we could have used another five or ten minutes sometimes in the meetings . industrial designer: especially last time , user interface: yeah , for some of the meetings , yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah i think the last time we had a lot of information , but at the same time not quite enough , industrial designer: yeah , project manager: you know what i mean , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: like we we could n't answer every single question . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: um but industrial designer: right . and i i felt the first two meetings , that i was coming in with no information , project manager: mm . industrial designer: and not sort of made me really like , ooh i do n't know , throwing together powerpoint out of no no information and then last time it was like the opposite . i had so much information and so much to talk about . project manager: it was interesting what came out like later , like as i was doing the when i was doing the breakdown on the agenda that they gave me um , that more points came out from your presentation even . industrial designer: yeah . mm . project manager: um . i 'm a little i am a little disappointed that we did n't do a um something for losing the remote , because that was kind of a big point . industrial designer: yeah . that was something like in order to talk about that we would 've had to have actual knowledge about circuit boards and things like project manager: about yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: well the problem was , even when we just were creating from the excel file , there was n't like a option to select to somehow have it included , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so there was no we could be like yeah , it has it included . industrial designer: i think we were project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: there was no way for us to have project manager: considered the re industrial designer: yeah . marketing: written down that it was really there . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think we were just getting overenthusiastic with the task . project manager: well marketing: project manager: it 's interesting that they industrial designer: i think we really got into it , i mean i got into it as the day went on and i got really like , ooh i 'm designing a remote control , i dunno if that 's just me , project manager: mm-hmm , yeah . industrial designer: but project manager: it was interesting though that they put that fifty percent of people say they have frustration with losing their remote and yet they did n't provide us with information to um we were n't provided with information to discuss that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: i know that like people people have like things they can put on their keys that you press it and it 'll beep , but i but i 'm sure that would require some kind of technology industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: that i just do n't know what it is , but industrial designer: i think there are some of those like infomercial remotes that have things so you wo n't lose them . project manager: mm . industrial designer: i dunno . i mean we were talking about it and like i in my household at least , there 's only about two places that the remote is ever project manager: hmm . industrial designer: 'cause there 's only one tv and there 's only like three chairs . marketing: that 's like saying you 're never gon na lose your keys , and i always do , anyway . you 'll lose 'em in your pocket , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: like you just will forget that or you like put it down somewhere that like made sense and then not remember , project manager: mm . marketing: there 's always ways to lose things . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it d yeah , it depends on how organised you are personally , but industrial designer: yeah , or like i guess what the setup of the house is too . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but , i mean i am notorious for losing my keys , project manager: industrial designer: i just i guess i 've just never lost the remote . i put my keys in the refrigerator the other night and could n't find them . user interface: industrial designer: 'cause i was putting groceries away . marketing: that 's funny . project manager: oh . industrial designer: you you 're taking stuff from a bag and putting them in the refrigerator and then go back to my room . project manager: ca n't get in . industrial designer: ca n't get in , look all around the kitchen . definitely in the vegetable drawer . project manager: marketing: that 's funny . industrial designer: so . marketing: i always do that , leaving it in my coat , and then like using a different coat . industrial designer: mm . project manager: yep . industrial designer: but i guess it 's 'cause we do n't carry remotes around that much . marketing: yeah . ca n't really take it into the other room . industrial designer: yeah . maybe with our little robot one we could 've had him have a robot , alien , pear , whatever he is , have a little voice like , i am located marketing: industrial designer: oh a g_p_s_ system , internal g_p_s_ . marketing: user interface: marketing: oh man . here you go . project manager: we should make one that walks by itself . industrial designer: although if it 's sitting still for too long . yes i user interface: marketing: that really could get up and walk away . project manager: or or like some crazy like electro-magnet , that you push it and it 'll go zoom to the tv and stick there . industrial designer: or little or just just a wheel , you know . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: just if you like you 'd have a remote for your remote , that 'll . user interface: yeah . project manager: well , but if you could attach them to the tv , then you can . industrial designer: zoom yeah . hmm . all kinds of possibilities . project manager: mm . okay . sorry , i 'm just um trying to update my minutes . i decided to you know how i sent you the email saying that powerpoint minutes will be complimentary , rather than like repeating them . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: just gon na make i 'm making full minutes , so that it 'll include all of the agenda and all that . industrial designer: oh . project manager: 'cause that seems a little more useful . industrial designer: wow . 'cause you 've had like the most typing and organising to do . project manager: but i did n't have like information to sloth through either , so industrial designer: yeah , i guess how much of your powerpoint was already done for you , every meeting . project manager: most of it , mm-hmm . i added slides , um i added a couple slides each time , industrial designer: oh . project manager: but that was about it . industrial designer: okay . yeah , i did n't even think about adding slides , 'cause i would just get slides with titles on them project manager: mm . industrial designer: and fill them all in w did n't even think about adding more . project manager: well , the thing was they would provide y an agenda with s like several points , but it would n't have a slide for each point . and that 's the only way i remember that i need to go other that point . industrial designer: ah yeah . . project manager: i know personally when i do powerpoint , that 's what i do and so i had it once , even if it was just like the title of it , like the three presentations , and i would do your three . industrial designer: right . marketing: you have you have to have the slogan on it or can it just be like project manager: the slogan on it ? industrial designer: no , no , definitely not . project manager: no no no . marketing: okay good . industrial designer: we marketing: 'cause i was like , it could go around the outside . industrial designer: no , i do n't think we need to user interface: project manager: i think we just need the um the r_r_ , industrial designer: i think the r_ and r_ , especially if the yellow and black one . project manager: yeah . marketing: is it yellow and blue ? industrial designer: or yellow and blue . lem me go to the web page . project manager: yeah , i was just kinda going by the web page , 'cause they did n't give me any clear , like yellow , grey , or . marketing: oh i guess it is black , grey . grey is better than black , does n't look so bumblebeeish . project manager: i do n't really like yellow in general . marketing: hey now i understand the random like newsclippings . project manager: but it industrial designer: finish meeting now . marketing: project manager: was n't it interesting that um i thought it was interesting that our market marketing um expert did not agree with the marketing um marketing: yes . project manager: the marketing choices , industrial designer: user interface: project manager: you know , like industrial designer: marketing: i will project manager: that was a bit of a conflict . marketing: i just feel like if you 're really doing like a a really big market evaluation , you would n't just have like one set of source , industrial designer: marketing: it 's kind of an they were so not backed up , it would just be a sentence like we did a survey , this is what people said . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: s mm , i dunno . project manager: people are stupid . industrial designer: i guess it i it sort of a grey , is n't it ? yellow and grey , but then the slogan 's in blue . marketing: well we got some grey and we got some blue buttons , we 're good . industrial designer: yeah . well we do n't have the right colour clay anyway . project manager: maybe , like i do n't know . that could always be . industrial designer: well we 're not , sadly , going to actually be producing this , so . project manager: oh . marketing: if they ever come out with potato industrial designer: potato mango shaped remotes . marketing: i 'm gon na have to project manager: i 'm claiming it intellectual property . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i ca n't believe a whole day is gone . i do n't feel like it 's been that long . marketing: i know . industrial designer: get sucked in . mm i have n't gotten questionnaire eight yet .

marketing thought the prototype was not much technologically innovative because they did n't have lcd screens and a fancy chip . while project manager thought the kinetic battery was a good innovation . the group supplemented that people might notice this feature after a year if they had n't changed the battery . so the group agreed to give an average of four out of seven .

why did user interface give four in ease of learning when discussing the evaluation criteria ? </s> project manager: okay um , welcome to our detailed design meeting . i 'm pretty excited . let 's start it 's approximately fifteen forty or something like that . okay um the agenda we 're gon na do an opening and then um i 'll talk about the minutes from the last meeting , what we d discussed um , then we 'll have the prototype presentation and a look at the evaluation criteria . we 'll look at the finances and finally a do a production evaluation and close . so , starting off with the um last the last one , oh i do n't have it here um , but we talked about energy , we 're gon na use a kinetic battery um , we want to use a simple chip , because we 're not gon na need a a shuffle um , we 're gon na need a scroll um , we 're choosing a latex case w in fruity colours that 's curved and um we 're using push buttons uh with a supplement of an on-screen menu . and it sounded like we had set um like eight or nine buttons , including five pre-set channels . okay ? let 's do the look and feel design presentation first . user interface: right , do you wan na start ? industrial designer: right , well we made three different prototypes and i guess we 'll start with with this one . um we have our colours not are not fixed , but this is the general shape . um it 's you hold it sort of either like like this in your left hand or you switch it over and uh it 's easily adaptable to either hand . you can push the buttons with your thumb like a mobile phone , or you can push them with your index finger of your other hand , or even i mean there 's a whole variety , you can hold it like this and press it with your same index finger . uh we have the on off button at the tip , very visible , very big . we have our up and down buttons , which are also gon na be our channel selectors , and we have our little menu button here . if you push if you 're just pushing these normally , they 're the menu buttons , if uh the volume buttons rather . if you press select once , they become channel changing buttons . if we press select three times , the menu with the other features and pro possibly also with your tv channel choices shows up , and you have your five presets down here . um if people wan na grab hold of that , see how it feels in your hand . that 's our number one prototype . um do you wan na present the potato , project manager: like a little lightning in it . industrial designer: or shall i present the martian ? user interface: okay , project manager: the little lightning bolt in it , very cute . user interface: um what we call that one the rhombus , marketing: i could project manager: the v the rhombus rhombus ? user interface: uh the rhombus . industrial designer: that 's the rhombus , yep . user interface: um this one is known as the potato , uh it 's industrial designer: user interface: it 's a marketing: user interface: how can i present it ? it 's an ergonomic shape , so it it fits in your hand nicely . um it 's designed to be used either in your left hand or or in your right hand . um i 've gone here just for just for four buttons on this one . um the two blue buttons here are for adjusting the volume . so you 've got volume up and volume down on the other side here . um the red ones are for uh changing channels , channel up and channel down and that 's um moves between your favourite channels that you 've selected . uh this middle button here brings up the on-screen menu and when you 're working in the on-screen menu you use the other four buttons to navigate around the menu system and the middle button uh to select and that 's basically it , that 's the potato . project manager: um on , off ? user interface: uh that would be one of your channels , basically , project manager: okay . user interface: so like channel zero would be t to switch switch the machine off , project manager: yeah we turn it off . user interface: yeah . marketing: could the middle button of the on-screen menu function as a power button ? user interface: um not really , industrial designer: user interface: it would make it hard to turn the machine off , to turn your tv off . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: if you pressed and held it maybe . user interface: yeah yeah , that that 'd be one way of doing it , yeah . that 'd work , yeah . marketing: if you like held it down , that would be on off . industrial designer: yeah . on off , that 's a possibility , yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and then finally we have um the martian or the pear , either way . um it 's a bit different , just a little bit more of a creative feel . uh you have the on off toggle stem on the top . we have the five preset seeds . project manager: industrial designer: and then you have on the sides to make it a little bit more three-dimensional , you have your channel changing , volume changing buttons and your menu button right here in the middle . so , that 's for your consideration as well , plus it 's an interesting talking point to have standing up . user interface: let 's pass . industrial designer: we figured it could stand up like this on your table , if you wanted it to , if i made the bot the bottom flat . project manager: uh-huh . marketing: sorry , what 's the yellow one in the middle , industrial designer: uh the menu select button . marketing: i forgot . project manager: very interesting . i think that one 's my favourite . industrial designer: user interface: so that 's so that 's our three prototypes . um basically , in terms of making decisions , what we 'd need to do is first of all decide on a form uh which of the three different shapes we want , then decide what kind of button layout we want , how many buttons , and then to choose what colours we want to make the buttons and if we wan na put any text on the device , like label on the buttons or put a brand name or or a logo on it or whatever . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: we were we were thinking that normally we 'd go for fruity colours , but maybe we 're also thinking that your sort of middle aged man , for an example customer , might not want a fruity coloured remote , so m maybe we 'd have one version that 's a bit toned down , project manager: mm 'kay . industrial designer: maybe with with less contrasts on it . yeah , something still a little bright to make it hard to lose , but user interface: would yeah , but we do n't want it to look like a kids ' toy . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: now that was one thing that we brought up over email . i do n't know if you picked up your email , but um the f the um feature that we considered for it not getting lost . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: right . well we were we were talking about that a little bit when we got that email and we think that each of these are so distinctive , that it it 's not just like another piece of technology around your house . it 's gon na be somewhere that it can be seen . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so we 're we 're not thinking that it 's gon na be as critical to have the loss marketing: but if it 's like under covers or like in a couch you still ca n't see it . project manager: it 's really would it be very difficult to um just have an external device that like i dunno , you tape to your to your tv um that when you press it you ha a little light beep goes off ? do you think that would be conceptually possible ? industrial designer: i think user interface: i think it would be difficult technologically , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: because if your if your remote 's lost it 's probably under the settee and in that case you ca n't you ca n't send an infrared sing signal to it to find it , project manager: mm . user interface: s so it 's i 'm not quite sure how it would work project manager: that 's true , mm 'kay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then i wonder if it 's if it 's more just a gimmick then anything else . uh i mean ho how many times do you really , seriously lose your remote control and would would a device like that actually help you to find it ? industrial designer: there might be something that you can do in the circuit board and the chip to make it make a noise or something , but it would take a lot more development than we have this afternoon . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , that 's a fair evaluation . getting lost . um we so we do we 've decided not to worry about that for now . okay 'cause well , the designs are very bright , so you 're right , they 're gon na stick out , but um industrial designer: so d do people have a preference as far as feel and functionality ? um . marketing: i feel like this is simil or it 's sort of what already exists so if we 're trying to think of something sort of like new and fun , even though this is like what you 're init i 'm initially drawn to , just 'cause it 's like comfortable and like not different . i sort of like this one , like i i do n't know why , it just it 's like small but still sort of like cute looking , i dunno . but i also like the b the side buttons on that one , like i think that 's kind of neat . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but i dunno how much any of this has to do with the fashionable , sort of cool looking thing that we also need to focus on . project manager: could we maybe have like an extra button on the top for on off ? so then w we would n't have to have like a dual function ? industrial designer: mm yeah , user interface: yeah , it 's possible , yeah , yeah . marketing: ah , industrial designer: that 's good , that 's good . marketing: there we go . industrial designer: here , stick it on . user interface: put an extra the button on . marketing: project manager: sure . industrial designer: project manager: um uh why do n't we do a product evaluation using your criteria , if you 've developed some ? marketing: well do we w like i think we 're supposed to have one that we do it for . project manager: oh okay . okay . marketing: that was industrial designer: so where marketing: i was a little vague on what exactly i 'm supposed to do , but let me i have to like write something on the whiteboard , so . project manager: okay . do you need this industrial designer: project manager: or just write on the white board ? marketing: no , i actually do n't have like a powerpointy thing , project manager: okay . industrial designer: right . marketing: 'cause i think it would be redundant . industrial designer: okay . marketing: i dunno . project manager: it 's kind of like uh like a joystick kind of thing , industrial designer: ooh . project manager: you know , user interface: cool . project manager: kinda push it . industrial designer: hey . project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: project manager: maybe a little smaller than that . industrial designer: no , i kinda like it . user interface: industrial designer: that 's hard to miss . user interface: it makes look more fruity as well . project manager: oh it does , industrial designer: project manager: it 's kind of like industrial designer: user interface: it 's like a deformed foot , i dunno . project manager: there it could have a stem like that , 'cause i do l kind of like the stem . industrial designer: like user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . it almost helps you ge keep a grip too , 'cause it goes in between fingers . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: interesting . project manager: i like this one . industrial designer: okay , project manager: variety of colours are nice . industrial designer: is that where people are leaning then , the potato ? i like the idea of the project manager: i think i 'm leaning towards the potato . industrial designer: i mean that 's really gotten the simplicity of the buttons down , that one . project manager: mm-hmm . i am worried about like um using a menu . um in that like i withing menus there are submenus , and so how do you get back to the main menu ? industrial designer: hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: well that on the ipod , for example , you just every time you wan na go back you hit the menu button again and it brings you back one level . project manager: but that has a menu button separate from a select button , whereas if this one 's both the menu and the select button ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: good point . user interface: this is , it 's the up and down buttons are used for scrolling up and down for a list of choices . project manager: okay . user interface: you find the choice that you want and you press uh you press the right button uh . project manager: could these be used for going to submenus marketing: user interface: yeah . yeah , so they 're used for going into and out of your submenus , yeah . project manager: or industrial designer: maybe yeah , project manager: okay . industrial designer: maybe it can be one of those , if you press down and hold for two seconds , then it brings you back one level or something . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . well , as long as we have that in mind as we 're designing it still , mm 'kay . marketing: okay , so which one are we sort of roughly looking at to address whether or not it meets our s um necessities , the yellowy one is that industrial designer: the potato ? are we leaning towards the potato ? user interface: potato . project manager: i think so . marketing: okay , well we can obviously change it after we go through each different one . industrial designer: okay . marketing: so basically what we need to do is some of the things that we 've talked about before we need to make sure that that remote actually does conform to the things that we said it was going to . industrial designer: okay . marketing: so what we sort of wan na do is that we each need to separately rank each of the following things and then i 'll tabulate an average just to make sure that it does meet that . industrial designer: okay . marketing: so we 'll just go through them one at a time and we 'll just go around and each of you can tell me on a scale of one to seven with one being really extremely true and seven being not true at all , or false , if the remote that we 've created conforms to the following criteria . so we can do this one first . first we wan na know if it meets the fancy look and feel um objective . so like in my opinion the for now at least , the yellow one is probably somewhere in the middle so i 'm gon na say it 's like a three . that 's just my opinion . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: what does each of you project manager: i i kind of think it 's it 's unique enough that i 'd give it a one or a two . marketing: okay , well give it a number , project manager: okay . marketing: sorry . project manager: i will give it a one . industrial designer: um i dunno if it 's it 's creative . i dunno if fancy is the word i would use . i dunno if any of them are fancy in i 'd say two , because c unique . marketing: okay . user interface: i 'll go for two . marketing: and two , awesome . alright , and same sort of scale for functionality , is it functional ? i think it 's extremely functional , i 'm gon na give it a one . industrial designer: yeah , one . marketing: one ? user interface: i think it 's it 's functional , it 's also pretty basic , so i 'll give it a two . marketing: okay . project manager: um functional . i think it 'll get everything done , i think it might be a little confusing at first , um , i do n't know if that 's gon na be a later one . marketing: okay . well there 's some other ones , i will address that , project manager: okay , then i 'm gon na give it a two . marketing: yeah . awesome , okay . um we wan na know next if it 's technologically innovative . project manager: did you give a functional ? marketing: yeah , she said it was one . project manager: okay . marketing: um is it technologically innovative ? mm . not really , i mean not so much , 'cause we we do n't have the lcd screen , we do n't have fancy chip . other than what it looks like , i dunno if it 's really project manager: well , the kinetic battery . industrial designer: in the battery , that 's it . marketing: i kinetic battery is a big one , so . industrial designer: how many people would notice that , though ? marketing: mm . but it project manager: but they 'll notice it after like a year , marketing: but we know it 's there . project manager: they 'll be like hey , i have never changed the battery . marketing: and if it 's made of like latex , that whole idea , that 's pretty cool . project manager: mm . just the material . marketing: i 'll give it a three . 'cause it we could 've picked a lot of features that would 've made it really industrial designer: yeah . i i would say that it 's yeah , like fancy versus creative it 's it 's different . but does that equal innovative ? i dunno . i 'll give it a three . marketing: alright . everyone else ? user interface: i 'd say it 's technologically it 's not it 's not unique , i mean it 's it 's just it is just pushbuttons um , so i i 'd give it a four . project manager: think i 'm gon na go with the four as well . marketing: mm 'kay . project manager: i really like that kinetic battery though . marketing: next , is it easy to use ? just so you know , easy to learn will be separate , project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: so do n't overlap them . industrial designer: okay . marketing: i think it 's really easy to use . i 'll give it a two . industrial designer: um i 'll give it a one . pretty hard to mess up . user interface: i 'll say one . project manager: uh let 's say two . marketing: alright . um we next wan na see if it has a spongy quality industrial designer: user interface: marketing: and if indeed it 's made of latex or rubber i it 's spongy all the way . industrial designer: project manager: give it a one . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: i wonder if it bounces when you drop it . industrial designer: ooh , that you could n't marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: industrial designer: it 'd be harder to break , project manager: mm . industrial designer: harder to lose . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'cause there would be less impact maybe , . industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah marketing: iain , what do you give it ? user interface: i 'd i 'd give it a one . marketing: alright and the next is , does it integrate some notion of fruits and vegetables ? industrial designer: user interface: uh um . marketing: well , is it gon na be yellow ? industrial designer: it it might be , 'cause that 's our corporate colour , is n't it ? project manager: that 's right , yeah , corporate colour , we did n't keep that in user interface: yeah . project manager: um well industrial designer: we might wan na keep it yellow . project manager: if we i know it would make it a little less c a little more confusing , but if we had all the buttons in black , and a design in and the outside in yellow , that 'd be our corporate one and we could also have alternative colours , one a more conservative one , one that 's more fruity . user interface: marketing: yeah , but if you had like a silvery kind of white or something . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah , project manager: um and can we have like an r_r_ inscribed on the bottom or something ? industrial designer: if we had a yellow sure . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: oh , yeah . project manager: fruity , so fruity . industrial designer: so marketing: alright , so i think it it 's industrial designer: it was inspired by the potato , so i think it 's pretty fruity . marketing: yeah . project manager: i think i it 's kind of mangoey too . marketing: industrial designer: oh , mango user interface: mangoey is better , yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yes . marketing: i industrial designer: that that user interface: i like mangoes . marketing: okay , i 'm giving it a one the mango put me over . project manager: mm . industrial designer: that 's a much more trendy than a potato marketing: what are what 's everyone 's numbers ? industrial designer: one . user interface: uh two . project manager: one . industrial designer: marketing: alright um , and does the design match the appropriate behaviour ? remember earlier we discussed that people do n't use a lot of buttons , that they use the channel flipping and the volume the most . i think we really took that into account a lot , so i 'm gon na give it a one . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , me too . user interface: uh one . marketing: did you say one , rose ? project manager: yes . marketing: okay um , also we talked earlier about r_s_i_ and wanting to prevent um any sort of like carpal tunnely kind of thing . do we think that the latex sort of grip appropriately takes that into account ? i think i 'll give it a two , 'cause i almost feel like no matter what you do , something is gon na happen . project manager: it 's gon na be hard . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah , yeah . project manager: and if it 's repetitive movement it is gon na be only four buttons that you 're constantly pushing , but um marketing: um um worth the risk , i think . project manager: i like how it fits in the hand though so i i 'd go with a two . industrial designer: yeah . i 'll i 'll say two as well . because older people that are n't used to like texting with the thumb might find it a bit at first , project manager: mm . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: but user interface: yeah i 'll i 'll say two . marketing: alright , awesome . and the ease of learning it . i know you were saying that you 're a little bit nervous about that , i dunno . it sort of reminds me of the ipod . i just got mine , i still have n't read the instruction book and i 'm doing okay , so project manager: mm . marketing: and i 'm not good at learning technology . so i 'll give it a two . industrial designer: the menu system and the the fact that multiple buttons are used for different things might be a bit confusing , but i think if it 's one it 's one of those things that it might take you five minutes to figure out , but you 'll have it afterwards . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i 'd i think i 'd give it a two i guess . user interface: i think it it 's probably a little harder then most remotes to learn , because you have to you have to use the menu system and you have to tell it what your favourite channels are industrial designer: oh , good point . user interface: and that could take a bit of learning at first , but marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: once you 've , yeah once you 'd learned how to use it , i think it is a lot easier . so i 'd i 'd give it a four . marketing: okay . project manager: i think i 'd give it a four too . it 's a pretty high learning curve , it 'll be easy once you 've done it , but industrial designer: user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . alright , um also earlier we had something about losing it and so now we 're not addressing that at all , so project manager: we we industrial designer: project manager: i think we can kind of say we addressed it with colour , but marketing: okay , so in terms of not losing it , do you think that on a scale of one to seven , how easy or hard is it to lose ? i 'm gon na i 'm gon na give it a four , 'cause i think that you can still if it 's in between somewhere where you ca n't see it , you 're kind of not gon na find it , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but anywhere else it 's gon na stand out . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: um i 'd say i 'd give it uh a three , i guess it depends on how tidy you are normally . project manager: mm i 'd give it a four . user interface: um i 'll give it a five 'cause i it would be easy to lose something like that , yeah . project manager: small too . marketing: alright , we also said simplicity , how w how well does it address just being simple ? industrial designer: simple to use or simple in design ? do you know ? marketing: i think overall , 'cause we had said before our two main things were simplicity and fashion , industrial designer: marketing: so those are the next two things we 're gon na look at . separate from fancy , like that sort of thing . industrial designer: right . marketing: um it like wants to be simple but it 's not like totally totally simple , so i 'm gon na give it a two . industrial designer: i 'm give it a three i guess . user interface: i 'll give it a two . project manager: three . marketing: alright , and fashionable ? project manager: it 's totally fashionable . i 'd give it a one . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: it 's hot , i mean it 's a mango , come on . project manager: mango . marketing: i mean how fashionable can you make a remote ? i think it 's bringing technology and fashion together real really well . industrial designer: i dunno . user interface: industrial designer: i do n't think it 's quite as fashionable as my robot remote project manager: i do like uh the little martian one . industrial designer: or alien or whatever he was . marketing: yeah , the toggle on off switch , it 's really appealing . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: number . industrial designer: um two . user interface: three . project manager: one . marketing: and does it meet our like demographic need sort of for international appeal , that whole thing ? just that it would se serve our audience . i do n't see why not . project manager: mm-hmm . i think as long if we offer in a in at least three different colour arrangements . um yeah , that 's good . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so i 'll give it a a two . industrial designer: yeah , i 'll say two . marketing: alright , did anyone have any other features that they think were important that we did n't talk about ? project manager: well um we did n't we did n't address the fact that it does need to b have a corporate logo , so let 's let 's make sure we keep that in mind that we ha that one of our colours concepts is corporate and has an r_r_ on it . industrial designer: shall we uh well i think all of them should have an r_r_ . project manager: all of them should have r_r_ , yeah . marketing: and so we 're gon na do that , so it will address it , project manager: mm-hmm . mm 'kay . marketing: fine . okay . project manager: lovely . marketing: that 's me . project manager: okay , now we 're gon na look at finances . um i have an excel sheet that we 're actually gon na calculate the cost um , so let me exit out of this first . okay um industrial designer: oh my . marketing: whoa . project manager: i know . let me one more space . gon na zoom in real quick . okay . hand dynamo . we 're using kinetic battery , industrial designer: uh we 're n using kinetic , yeah . project manager: right ? um and we 're having one per one , okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um electronics . industrial designer: single . project manager: simple . industrial designer: simple , simple rather . marketing: simple . project manager: mm 'kay . um the case . industrial designer: uh uh uh double-curved . user interface: guess it 's double-curved . it is pretty curvy . project manager: it 's very curvy , marketing: yeah . project manager: so okay . industrial designer: yeah i never did get a picture of those so i do n't really know . our case material supplements oops , we just skipped by them . marketing: well do n't we need plastic , and industrial designer: no , we we the plastic is the plastic for the inside is assumed . the supplement is marketing: provided , okay . project manager: the wood ? industrial designer: oh , i guess it was rubber rather than latex . project manager: i mean the rubber . marketing: it was rubber and special colour , right ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm , okay . marketing: do we have more than one special colour ? project manager: yeah , we 're using we 're gon na need at least two special colours . industrial designer: uh well user interface: special colours , is n't it ? project manager: um . industrial designer: i do n't know what the se the basic colour is though . marketing: per project manager: i dunno where it yeah . marketing: well , but we know that we 're having at least three colours , project manager: so let 's y say three . marketing: so industrial designer: well , are we talking about on each colour combination or are we , you know , we 'll like we 'll have yellow and black . is that two special colours ? project manager: yeah , i dunno . that i thi industrial designer: or or is white and black , then two more or project manager: i thought that would be under yours . industrial designer: uh . i guess it 's three , project manager: we 'll just say three . industrial designer: three three . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: right . project manager: maybe the r_r_ will be in colour as well , industrial designer: alright . project manager: so yeah . interface , we 're doing push buttons . and how many buttons do we have ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we have six . user interface: we 've got five . project manager: six . industrial designer: six , with the power . user interface: oh marketing: oh user interface: six . marketing: no , five . project manager: anything else ? industrial designer: yeah . no . oh , we 'll do we wa are the buttons in special colour , special f i did n't get information on project manager: oh , marketing: oh wait . project manager: buttons oh , so um . so the case material will just have one colour , right , industrial designer: well , project manager: but then the buttons will be in special colours ? industrial designer: does it marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but if we 're making multiple varieties of this is where i 'm getting confused . project manager: we 're saying per unit . industrial designer: per unit , okay , okay . marketing: yeah , per unit . project manager: okay , so each unit will only have one colour on their industrial designer: alright , and each button s project manager: but the case is could have up to thr i mean the buttons could ea could be up to three colours , 'cause that how it 's designed there . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: i like it like that . project manager: so industrial designer: yeah , okay . project manager: special form ? they 're all kind of just push button , industrial designer: no , project manager: right ? industrial designer: i think they 're fine . user interface: yeah . project manager: special material ? industrial designer: material , we want them rubber as well probably , yeah . project manager: uh . oh do i have to do it per button , do i ? industrial designer: no , i do n't think so . i think they 're project manager: okay . industrial designer: if they 're all gon na be rubber then it that 's what it matters . marketing: yeah , 'cause it would n't make sense otherwise , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: 'cause for the whole mat case material it 's only one . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it 's i mean it 's two to make it rubber . industrial designer: okay . marketing: oh wait , so maybe . project manager: thirteen point seven . marketing: industrial designer: oh oh . project manager: yeah , what can we reduce ? industrial designer: okay , let 's have our buttons all be one colour . marketing: mm , i kind of like the buttons . project manager: let 's see what that would do . it 's only gon na bring us down to thirteen point three anyway . industrial designer: alright . project manager: okay um , are we sure this is double-curved ? industrial designer: uh . project manager: maybe it 's single-curved , industrial designer: we have no idea . project manager: we have no idea . industrial designer: i dunno , i did n't get any pictures . it 's single curved . marketing: it 's single curved . industrial designer: why not ? project manager: well it 's not the yeah . okay , it 's the kinetic battery that 's kind of expensive , but we have a simple chip , single curve , marketing: project manager: case material is rubber and it 's a special colour , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: but that 's important . six buttons we have to have six buttons . industrial designer: that is important . how did it get more expensive , what did you just change ? project manager: what ? industrial designer: it was it was thirteen and now it 's fifteen . project manager: no , okay , maybe not . i do n't know what just happened . now it 's twelve . marketing: we industrial designer: user interface: what was our target price again ? project manager: twelve point five . industrial designer: twelve point five . hey hey . user interface: twelve point five . so we 're just just about there . project manager: so we 're okay , i think . industrial designer: we 're all set then . project manager: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: ish . project manager: okay , we 're all set . industrial designer: alright . project manager: um save . i saved that to our um our big shared folder , so you know . um okay , back to agenda . um are the are the costs under twelve fifty euro ? yes . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , they are . project manager: let 's move on to the project evaluation . project process . satisfaction with for example the room for creativity , leadership , teamwork , the means , any new ideas found . so i guess what we 're gon na talk about here is just evaluating how we created this project , the information we got on the news , how we used it , if we were able to um , you know , use our creativity with the information , um how how well i guess i led it , um the how well we worked together as a team , um the digital pens , the whiteboard . marketing: project manager: okay . industrial designer: well . i felt very creative . user interface: i think we 've been successful industrial designer: i enjoyed making the prototypes . user interface: in that we 've achieved almost all of the design goals that we 've set industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and we 've come up with a finished project and we just about got cost . industrial designer: i think we could 've done even better with a little bit more information , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like what 's a single-curved case , how many colours , what do colours count project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: things , but given given what we had i think that we did we did really well . um i think we worked together pretty well . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , i mean if i 'd had more market research on the fruits and vegetables , maybe we could 've taken that into account . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: industrial designer: but the fruits and vegetables , they really my creativity , so . project manager: marketing: i know , i really did , the the whole mango idea was great . industrial designer: do you think we could user interface: marketing: no , i mean i thought the pen was a little distracting for me personally , like its heaviness , and like just being so conscious of like turning the pages , i dunno . that was a bit of a distraction . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that was the last one , like i chose not to do a powerpoint 'cause i did n't think it made sense to , so i liked that i had the option to do that and just to take my own notes and that whole sort of thing . project manager: mm-hmm . i think we all made um very significant contributions , user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: i do n't think anybody dominated it , which i thought was really good , like each of us was able to um like each of you had your information and i uh i tried to facilitate it without like taking over , um industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i like our little finished products . industrial designer: can we market this as the mango remote ? marketing: they 're funny . project manager: really cute . user interface: marketing: i kind of want one . user interface: industrial designer: should we have that somewhere on the packaging ? i have a little r_r_ . marketing: i 'm trying to think of a good pun that i could add there . project manager: i know , industrial designer: project manager: let 's think of it like a little jingle . marketing: project manager: um . industrial designer: marketing: i like the r_r_ , that 's gon na be etched in . industrial designer: yes . hopefully not with just my fingernail at some point but um it 's quite a useful little gadget . all thanks to iain for the design of that one . project manager: . okay um industrial designer: mm . what did we find for new ideas ? project manager: new ideas found ? industrial designer: people should really base their remotes on fruits and vegetables . project manager: definitely . or or at least be c p creative enough to think of toggle switches mm user interface: yeah . project manager: etcetera . industrial designer: i i am really into the idea of kinetic batteries now after reading about them . project manager: oh , i 'm so excited . user interface: industrial designer: that was marketing: yeah , i did n't even know they existed . industrial designer: i i knew you can get watches that had them , like really quite expensive watches that just never need a battery , 'cause you 're always moving your wrist . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but in other things , i think it 'd be really good . project manager: i thi yeah , that 's awesome . um okay , closing . are the costs within the budget ? is the project evaluated ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: now there 's the final questionnaire and meeting summary . um so , this is the great product kids , i think we 've created something really interesting and that we have a market for it , um especially if we can produce it at twelve point three industrial designer: yeah . project manager: which we hope um yeah . make sure in your questionnaire to put down criticisms of both the process and the um the final results and . industrial designer: marketing: yeah , real reaction . project manager: i do like the martian remote . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: if we could choose more than one , that would be my second choice . marketing: oh , that would definitely be my second choice . project manager: although the tog toggle user interface: mm . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: i 'm afraid i would user interface: that 's cool . let 's all let 's all go for the yellow marketing: i would break it . i would break it . project manager: it 's cool . i think i would break it . industrial designer: it started because i wanted to have it as st as a stem user interface: break the stem off . industrial designer: and then alright , so marketing: oh that 's funny . industrial designer: is it started as a pear , but then it started looking more and more like a martian project manager: oh industrial designer: when i put the user interface: marketing: kind of looks like a penguin , like with no eye . industrial designer: take me to your leader . project manager: yeah , it 's kind of a penguin . industrial designer: marketing: i like that it stands up . project manager: mm-mm . industrial designer: wow , maybe i should market it to some remote control company now . user interface: industrial designer: so are are project manager: user interface: that was bound to happen. $ marketing: oh , sad . industrial designer: poor little thing . project manager: mm 'kay , congratulations . um . anything else to say ? marketing: nothing will come up until after our meeting 's supposed to be over , project manager: alright . marketing: its all timed . project manager: um anybody have industrial designer: oh . marketing: oh . project manager: i got more master classes , anybody else wan na like take a master 's class ? industrial designer: it 's really funny that you got spam in your work emails . marketing: user interface: project manager: yeah , but check it out . so like there are all these like links , they do n't go anywhere . industrial designer: project manager: but all that you need to keep in mind your knowledge management . um just wan na make sure you do . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: marketing: no the first one that you sent like i did n't realise that it was a joke and i was like why did she send this to us ? project manager: oh industrial designer: marketing: it 's very it 's very work relevant , project manager: it is . marketing: 'cause people send spam a lot . project manager: yes definitely industrial designer: let 's see , project manager: i 'm very sad that i did n't get any links to the corporate website . . marketing: oh here you can you can view . industrial designer: what did i get through the corporate website ? it 's just inspiration about circuit boards . marketing: you can just see what 's up . project manager: wow . marketing: yeah it 's it 's really deep . hold on . takes a little while to get excited to load . that the excel thing is pretty cool . project manager: yes . industrial designer: yeah , that is pretty neat . project manager: i love excel , marketing: here , like , basically project manager: it 's one of my favourite programs . marketing: it 's like inspiration , basically i 'm gon na give you two sentences on fashion and that kind of thing , see . you did n't miss out that much . project manager: i see , mm . industrial designer: yeah , my inspiration from from last time is the in interior of a remote control being taken apart bit by bit , talking about circuit boards . project manager: spongy . industrial designer: i learned a lot actually . user interface: mm . industrial designer: i could probably take apart a remote control now if i really needed to . marketing: oh wow . this one was cooler . i got a whole table and everything . industrial designer: now i have all about circuits and chips and transponders and i wrote it all down , because i thought it would be relevant , like all the different parts of the inside of a remote control , but then they 're like , you do n't actually need this you just need to talk about the case . marketing: that 's like mine it was like , would you prefer an lcd screen or a multifunction remote control ? and then it did n't have like any kind of table , like awesome , i 'm glad they asked that question and did n't report the result . project manager: i i thought it was a little tricky having to hand around this thing . industrial designer: it 's really interesting though . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: we had a lot of the um otherwise the technology today was kinda cool . user interface: i think . yeah . industrial designer: that was really neat how i got emails project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and user interface: we did n't we did n't use the whiteboard that much . project manager: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: although i do n't see how we could have very l at least for me user interface: industrial designer: i yeah . if i 'd gotten pictures of the different parts of the case , the different looks of the case , i would have probably drawn them up , project manager: mm . industrial designer: but marketing: 'cause we were n't like voting on anything and i think usually , like whiteboards are good , you know like crossing out ideas , or like if we had had like a brainstorming period . industrial designer: yeah , we could 've put our brainstorming stuff up there rather than just talking about it , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but with only four people it does n't really make sense . marketing: but i thought we were good orally . project manager: and with and with the powerpoint that we can all look at , like you can do all those things pretty much on powerpoint industrial designer: i think if you had a larger group marketing: get crazy . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: as that 's not as necessary to have . user interface: yeah . marketing: and these might 've made us more willing to like take notes than to like write up them here , project manager: mm . marketing: 'cause we all needed them separately , kind of on the whiteboards in this room . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: because we 're all gon na be working in different places . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: we if we were all gon na stay in here all the time , then having the notes up on the whiteboard would 've been alright , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but everyone needs their own , like specific notes , i guess . project manager: now when you were um creating your um prototypes here , did you work together or did you like do separate projects ? user interface: uh we we worked together , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: um but we were making like we sort of made different shapes and then discussed how the how the buttons might work , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: um and how we could like improve on the on the design . industrial designer: so it was a bit of both really , we just kind of started out by each taking a colour of clay and just fooling around with it and i came up with that rhombus shape project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and he came up with the sort of potatoey , mangoey shape , and then just went from there really . project manager: cool . industrial designer: it was fun . so well done with the management , i felt well managed . project manager: oh thanks . user interface: i think we did well in first of all giving our meetings the time , project manager: it 's kinda fun . user interface: and second we actually we we did a good job of making firm decisions at the ends of the meetings . project manager: mm . user interface: and i marketing: sorry . industrial designer: that happened to me all the time though . user interface: i know what happens sometimes is that you tend to sort of have meetings and then people sorta drift away without anything actually really being decided . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but i think here we got we got clear and and decisive decisive points at the end of the meetings , so that we we knew where to go on from there . industrial designer: yeah , i was quite worried at the end of the last meeting that we were n't getting we did n't really have enough information to make firm decisions , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but we were able to do it regardless , so . i 'm not usually a very decisive person , so it helped to have people say this needs to be done in five minutes . project manager: this is what we 'll do . user interface: yeah . project manager: i found that we did we could have used another five or ten minutes sometimes in the meetings . industrial designer: especially last time , user interface: yeah , for some of the meetings , yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah i think the last time we had a lot of information , but at the same time not quite enough , industrial designer: yeah , project manager: you know what i mean , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: like we we could n't answer every single question . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: um but industrial designer: right . and i i felt the first two meetings , that i was coming in with no information , project manager: mm . industrial designer: and not sort of made me really like , ooh i do n't know , throwing together powerpoint out of no no information and then last time it was like the opposite . i had so much information and so much to talk about . project manager: it was interesting what came out like later , like as i was doing the when i was doing the breakdown on the agenda that they gave me um , that more points came out from your presentation even . industrial designer: yeah . mm . project manager: um . i 'm a little i am a little disappointed that we did n't do a um something for losing the remote , because that was kind of a big point . industrial designer: yeah . that was something like in order to talk about that we would 've had to have actual knowledge about circuit boards and things like project manager: about yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: well the problem was , even when we just were creating from the excel file , there was n't like a option to select to somehow have it included , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so there was no we could be like yeah , it has it included . industrial designer: i think we were project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: there was no way for us to have project manager: considered the re industrial designer: yeah . marketing: written down that it was really there . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think we were just getting overenthusiastic with the task . project manager: well marketing: project manager: it 's interesting that they industrial designer: i think we really got into it , i mean i got into it as the day went on and i got really like , ooh i 'm designing a remote control , i dunno if that 's just me , project manager: mm-hmm , yeah . industrial designer: but project manager: it was interesting though that they put that fifty percent of people say they have frustration with losing their remote and yet they did n't provide us with information to um we were n't provided with information to discuss that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: i know that like people people have like things they can put on their keys that you press it and it 'll beep , but i but i 'm sure that would require some kind of technology industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: that i just do n't know what it is , but industrial designer: i think there are some of those like infomercial remotes that have things so you wo n't lose them . project manager: mm . industrial designer: i dunno . i mean we were talking about it and like i in my household at least , there 's only about two places that the remote is ever project manager: hmm . industrial designer: 'cause there 's only one tv and there 's only like three chairs . marketing: that 's like saying you 're never gon na lose your keys , and i always do , anyway . you 'll lose 'em in your pocket , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: like you just will forget that or you like put it down somewhere that like made sense and then not remember , project manager: mm . marketing: there 's always ways to lose things . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it d yeah , it depends on how organised you are personally , but industrial designer: yeah , or like i guess what the setup of the house is too . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but , i mean i am notorious for losing my keys , project manager: industrial designer: i just i guess i 've just never lost the remote . i put my keys in the refrigerator the other night and could n't find them . user interface: industrial designer: 'cause i was putting groceries away . marketing: that 's funny . project manager: oh . industrial designer: you you 're taking stuff from a bag and putting them in the refrigerator and then go back to my room . project manager: ca n't get in . industrial designer: ca n't get in , look all around the kitchen . definitely in the vegetable drawer . project manager: marketing: that 's funny . industrial designer: so . marketing: i always do that , leaving it in my coat , and then like using a different coat . industrial designer: mm . project manager: yep . industrial designer: but i guess it 's 'cause we do n't carry remotes around that much . marketing: yeah . ca n't really take it into the other room . industrial designer: yeah . maybe with our little robot one we could 've had him have a robot , alien , pear , whatever he is , have a little voice like , i am located marketing: industrial designer: oh a g_p_s_ system , internal g_p_s_ . marketing: user interface: marketing: oh man . here you go . project manager: we should make one that walks by itself . industrial designer: although if it 's sitting still for too long . yes i user interface: marketing: that really could get up and walk away . project manager: or or like some crazy like electro-magnet , that you push it and it 'll go zoom to the tv and stick there . industrial designer: or little or just just a wheel , you know . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: just if you like you 'd have a remote for your remote , that 'll . user interface: yeah . project manager: well , but if you could attach them to the tv , then you can . industrial designer: zoom yeah . hmm . all kinds of possibilities . project manager: mm . okay . sorry , i 'm just um trying to update my minutes . i decided to you know how i sent you the email saying that powerpoint minutes will be complimentary , rather than like repeating them . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: just gon na make i 'm making full minutes , so that it 'll include all of the agenda and all that . industrial designer: oh . project manager: 'cause that seems a little more useful . industrial designer: wow . 'cause you 've had like the most typing and organising to do . project manager: but i did n't have like information to sloth through either , so industrial designer: yeah , i guess how much of your powerpoint was already done for you , every meeting . project manager: most of it , mm-hmm . i added slides , um i added a couple slides each time , industrial designer: oh . project manager: but that was about it . industrial designer: okay . yeah , i did n't even think about adding slides , 'cause i would just get slides with titles on them project manager: mm . industrial designer: and fill them all in w did n't even think about adding more . project manager: well , the thing was they would provide y an agenda with s like several points , but it would n't have a slide for each point . and that 's the only way i remember that i need to go other that point . industrial designer: ah yeah . . project manager: i know personally when i do powerpoint , that 's what i do and so i had it once , even if it was just like the title of it , like the three presentations , and i would do your three . industrial designer: right . marketing: you have you have to have the slogan on it or can it just be like project manager: the slogan on it ? industrial designer: no , no , definitely not . project manager: no no no . marketing: okay good . industrial designer: we marketing: 'cause i was like , it could go around the outside . industrial designer: no , i do n't think we need to user interface: project manager: i think we just need the um the r_r_ , industrial designer: i think the r_ and r_ , especially if the yellow and black one . project manager: yeah . marketing: is it yellow and blue ? industrial designer: or yellow and blue . lem me go to the web page . project manager: yeah , i was just kinda going by the web page , 'cause they did n't give me any clear , like yellow , grey , or . marketing: oh i guess it is black , grey . grey is better than black , does n't look so bumblebeeish . project manager: i do n't really like yellow in general . marketing: hey now i understand the random like newsclippings . project manager: but it industrial designer: finish meeting now . marketing: project manager: was n't it interesting that um i thought it was interesting that our market marketing um expert did not agree with the marketing um marketing: yes . project manager: the marketing choices , industrial designer: user interface: project manager: you know , like industrial designer: marketing: i will project manager: that was a bit of a conflict . marketing: i just feel like if you 're really doing like a a really big market evaluation , you would n't just have like one set of source , industrial designer: marketing: it 's kind of an they were so not backed up , it would just be a sentence like we did a survey , this is what people said . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: s mm , i dunno . project manager: people are stupid . industrial designer: i guess it i it sort of a grey , is n't it ? yellow and grey , but then the slogan 's in blue . marketing: well we got some grey and we got some blue buttons , we 're good . industrial designer: yeah . well we do n't have the right colour clay anyway . project manager: maybe , like i do n't know . that could always be . industrial designer: well we 're not , sadly , going to actually be producing this , so . project manager: oh . marketing: if they ever come out with potato industrial designer: potato mango shaped remotes . marketing: i 'm gon na have to project manager: i 'm claiming it intellectual property . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i ca n't believe a whole day is gone . i do n't feel like it 's been that long . marketing: i know . industrial designer: get sucked in . mm i have n't gotten questionnaire eight yet .

marketing firstly took the ipod as an example when illustrating the ease of learning the new remote . however , user interface mentioned that it would be harder because users had to use the menu system and need to tell it what their favourite channels were . and it was a high learning curve , so user interface gave four out of seven .

summarize the discussion about finance . </s> project manager: okay um , welcome to our detailed design meeting . i 'm pretty excited . let 's start it 's approximately fifteen forty or something like that . okay um the agenda we 're gon na do an opening and then um i 'll talk about the minutes from the last meeting , what we d discussed um , then we 'll have the prototype presentation and a look at the evaluation criteria . we 'll look at the finances and finally a do a production evaluation and close . so , starting off with the um last the last one , oh i do n't have it here um , but we talked about energy , we 're gon na use a kinetic battery um , we want to use a simple chip , because we 're not gon na need a a shuffle um , we 're gon na need a scroll um , we 're choosing a latex case w in fruity colours that 's curved and um we 're using push buttons uh with a supplement of an on-screen menu . and it sounded like we had set um like eight or nine buttons , including five pre-set channels . okay ? let 's do the look and feel design presentation first . user interface: right , do you wan na start ? industrial designer: right , well we made three different prototypes and i guess we 'll start with with this one . um we have our colours not are not fixed , but this is the general shape . um it 's you hold it sort of either like like this in your left hand or you switch it over and uh it 's easily adaptable to either hand . you can push the buttons with your thumb like a mobile phone , or you can push them with your index finger of your other hand , or even i mean there 's a whole variety , you can hold it like this and press it with your same index finger . uh we have the on off button at the tip , very visible , very big . we have our up and down buttons , which are also gon na be our channel selectors , and we have our little menu button here . if you push if you 're just pushing these normally , they 're the menu buttons , if uh the volume buttons rather . if you press select once , they become channel changing buttons . if we press select three times , the menu with the other features and pro possibly also with your tv channel choices shows up , and you have your five presets down here . um if people wan na grab hold of that , see how it feels in your hand . that 's our number one prototype . um do you wan na present the potato , project manager: like a little lightning in it . industrial designer: or shall i present the martian ? user interface: okay , project manager: the little lightning bolt in it , very cute . user interface: um what we call that one the rhombus , marketing: i could project manager: the v the rhombus rhombus ? user interface: uh the rhombus . industrial designer: that 's the rhombus , yep . user interface: um this one is known as the potato , uh it 's industrial designer: user interface: it 's a marketing: user interface: how can i present it ? it 's an ergonomic shape , so it it fits in your hand nicely . um it 's designed to be used either in your left hand or or in your right hand . um i 've gone here just for just for four buttons on this one . um the two blue buttons here are for adjusting the volume . so you 've got volume up and volume down on the other side here . um the red ones are for uh changing channels , channel up and channel down and that 's um moves between your favourite channels that you 've selected . uh this middle button here brings up the on-screen menu and when you 're working in the on-screen menu you use the other four buttons to navigate around the menu system and the middle button uh to select and that 's basically it , that 's the potato . project manager: um on , off ? user interface: uh that would be one of your channels , basically , project manager: okay . user interface: so like channel zero would be t to switch switch the machine off , project manager: yeah we turn it off . user interface: yeah . marketing: could the middle button of the on-screen menu function as a power button ? user interface: um not really , industrial designer: user interface: it would make it hard to turn the machine off , to turn your tv off . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: if you pressed and held it maybe . user interface: yeah yeah , that that 'd be one way of doing it , yeah . that 'd work , yeah . marketing: if you like held it down , that would be on off . industrial designer: yeah . on off , that 's a possibility , yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and then finally we have um the martian or the pear , either way . um it 's a bit different , just a little bit more of a creative feel . uh you have the on off toggle stem on the top . we have the five preset seeds . project manager: industrial designer: and then you have on the sides to make it a little bit more three-dimensional , you have your channel changing , volume changing buttons and your menu button right here in the middle . so , that 's for your consideration as well , plus it 's an interesting talking point to have standing up . user interface: let 's pass . industrial designer: we figured it could stand up like this on your table , if you wanted it to , if i made the bot the bottom flat . project manager: uh-huh . marketing: sorry , what 's the yellow one in the middle , industrial designer: uh the menu select button . marketing: i forgot . project manager: very interesting . i think that one 's my favourite . industrial designer: user interface: so that 's so that 's our three prototypes . um basically , in terms of making decisions , what we 'd need to do is first of all decide on a form uh which of the three different shapes we want , then decide what kind of button layout we want , how many buttons , and then to choose what colours we want to make the buttons and if we wan na put any text on the device , like label on the buttons or put a brand name or or a logo on it or whatever . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: we were we were thinking that normally we 'd go for fruity colours , but maybe we 're also thinking that your sort of middle aged man , for an example customer , might not want a fruity coloured remote , so m maybe we 'd have one version that 's a bit toned down , project manager: mm 'kay . industrial designer: maybe with with less contrasts on it . yeah , something still a little bright to make it hard to lose , but user interface: would yeah , but we do n't want it to look like a kids ' toy . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: now that was one thing that we brought up over email . i do n't know if you picked up your email , but um the f the um feature that we considered for it not getting lost . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: right . well we were we were talking about that a little bit when we got that email and we think that each of these are so distinctive , that it it 's not just like another piece of technology around your house . it 's gon na be somewhere that it can be seen . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so we 're we 're not thinking that it 's gon na be as critical to have the loss marketing: but if it 's like under covers or like in a couch you still ca n't see it . project manager: it 's really would it be very difficult to um just have an external device that like i dunno , you tape to your to your tv um that when you press it you ha a little light beep goes off ? do you think that would be conceptually possible ? industrial designer: i think user interface: i think it would be difficult technologically , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: because if your if your remote 's lost it 's probably under the settee and in that case you ca n't you ca n't send an infrared sing signal to it to find it , project manager: mm . user interface: s so it 's i 'm not quite sure how it would work project manager: that 's true , mm 'kay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then i wonder if it 's if it 's more just a gimmick then anything else . uh i mean ho how many times do you really , seriously lose your remote control and would would a device like that actually help you to find it ? industrial designer: there might be something that you can do in the circuit board and the chip to make it make a noise or something , but it would take a lot more development than we have this afternoon . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , that 's a fair evaluation . getting lost . um we so we do we 've decided not to worry about that for now . okay 'cause well , the designs are very bright , so you 're right , they 're gon na stick out , but um industrial designer: so d do people have a preference as far as feel and functionality ? um . marketing: i feel like this is simil or it 's sort of what already exists so if we 're trying to think of something sort of like new and fun , even though this is like what you 're init i 'm initially drawn to , just 'cause it 's like comfortable and like not different . i sort of like this one , like i i do n't know why , it just it 's like small but still sort of like cute looking , i dunno . but i also like the b the side buttons on that one , like i think that 's kind of neat . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but i dunno how much any of this has to do with the fashionable , sort of cool looking thing that we also need to focus on . project manager: could we maybe have like an extra button on the top for on off ? so then w we would n't have to have like a dual function ? industrial designer: mm yeah , user interface: yeah , it 's possible , yeah , yeah . marketing: ah , industrial designer: that 's good , that 's good . marketing: there we go . industrial designer: here , stick it on . user interface: put an extra the button on . marketing: project manager: sure . industrial designer: project manager: um uh why do n't we do a product evaluation using your criteria , if you 've developed some ? marketing: well do we w like i think we 're supposed to have one that we do it for . project manager: oh okay . okay . marketing: that was industrial designer: so where marketing: i was a little vague on what exactly i 'm supposed to do , but let me i have to like write something on the whiteboard , so . project manager: okay . do you need this industrial designer: project manager: or just write on the white board ? marketing: no , i actually do n't have like a powerpointy thing , project manager: okay . industrial designer: right . marketing: 'cause i think it would be redundant . industrial designer: okay . marketing: i dunno . project manager: it 's kind of like uh like a joystick kind of thing , industrial designer: ooh . project manager: you know , user interface: cool . project manager: kinda push it . industrial designer: hey . project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: project manager: maybe a little smaller than that . industrial designer: no , i kinda like it . user interface: industrial designer: that 's hard to miss . user interface: it makes look more fruity as well . project manager: oh it does , industrial designer: project manager: it 's kind of like industrial designer: user interface: it 's like a deformed foot , i dunno . project manager: there it could have a stem like that , 'cause i do l kind of like the stem . industrial designer: like user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . it almost helps you ge keep a grip too , 'cause it goes in between fingers . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: interesting . project manager: i like this one . industrial designer: okay , project manager: variety of colours are nice . industrial designer: is that where people are leaning then , the potato ? i like the idea of the project manager: i think i 'm leaning towards the potato . industrial designer: i mean that 's really gotten the simplicity of the buttons down , that one . project manager: mm-hmm . i am worried about like um using a menu . um in that like i withing menus there are submenus , and so how do you get back to the main menu ? industrial designer: hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: well that on the ipod , for example , you just every time you wan na go back you hit the menu button again and it brings you back one level . project manager: but that has a menu button separate from a select button , whereas if this one 's both the menu and the select button ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: good point . user interface: this is , it 's the up and down buttons are used for scrolling up and down for a list of choices . project manager: okay . user interface: you find the choice that you want and you press uh you press the right button uh . project manager: could these be used for going to submenus marketing: user interface: yeah . yeah , so they 're used for going into and out of your submenus , yeah . project manager: or industrial designer: maybe yeah , project manager: okay . industrial designer: maybe it can be one of those , if you press down and hold for two seconds , then it brings you back one level or something . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . well , as long as we have that in mind as we 're designing it still , mm 'kay . marketing: okay , so which one are we sort of roughly looking at to address whether or not it meets our s um necessities , the yellowy one is that industrial designer: the potato ? are we leaning towards the potato ? user interface: potato . project manager: i think so . marketing: okay , well we can obviously change it after we go through each different one . industrial designer: okay . marketing: so basically what we need to do is some of the things that we 've talked about before we need to make sure that that remote actually does conform to the things that we said it was going to . industrial designer: okay . marketing: so what we sort of wan na do is that we each need to separately rank each of the following things and then i 'll tabulate an average just to make sure that it does meet that . industrial designer: okay . marketing: so we 'll just go through them one at a time and we 'll just go around and each of you can tell me on a scale of one to seven with one being really extremely true and seven being not true at all , or false , if the remote that we 've created conforms to the following criteria . so we can do this one first . first we wan na know if it meets the fancy look and feel um objective . so like in my opinion the for now at least , the yellow one is probably somewhere in the middle so i 'm gon na say it 's like a three . that 's just my opinion . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: what does each of you project manager: i i kind of think it 's it 's unique enough that i 'd give it a one or a two . marketing: okay , well give it a number , project manager: okay . marketing: sorry . project manager: i will give it a one . industrial designer: um i dunno if it 's it 's creative . i dunno if fancy is the word i would use . i dunno if any of them are fancy in i 'd say two , because c unique . marketing: okay . user interface: i 'll go for two . marketing: and two , awesome . alright , and same sort of scale for functionality , is it functional ? i think it 's extremely functional , i 'm gon na give it a one . industrial designer: yeah , one . marketing: one ? user interface: i think it 's it 's functional , it 's also pretty basic , so i 'll give it a two . marketing: okay . project manager: um functional . i think it 'll get everything done , i think it might be a little confusing at first , um , i do n't know if that 's gon na be a later one . marketing: okay . well there 's some other ones , i will address that , project manager: okay , then i 'm gon na give it a two . marketing: yeah . awesome , okay . um we wan na know next if it 's technologically innovative . project manager: did you give a functional ? marketing: yeah , she said it was one . project manager: okay . marketing: um is it technologically innovative ? mm . not really , i mean not so much , 'cause we we do n't have the lcd screen , we do n't have fancy chip . other than what it looks like , i dunno if it 's really project manager: well , the kinetic battery . industrial designer: in the battery , that 's it . marketing: i kinetic battery is a big one , so . industrial designer: how many people would notice that , though ? marketing: mm . but it project manager: but they 'll notice it after like a year , marketing: but we know it 's there . project manager: they 'll be like hey , i have never changed the battery . marketing: and if it 's made of like latex , that whole idea , that 's pretty cool . project manager: mm . just the material . marketing: i 'll give it a three . 'cause it we could 've picked a lot of features that would 've made it really industrial designer: yeah . i i would say that it 's yeah , like fancy versus creative it 's it 's different . but does that equal innovative ? i dunno . i 'll give it a three . marketing: alright . everyone else ? user interface: i 'd say it 's technologically it 's not it 's not unique , i mean it 's it 's just it is just pushbuttons um , so i i 'd give it a four . project manager: think i 'm gon na go with the four as well . marketing: mm 'kay . project manager: i really like that kinetic battery though . marketing: next , is it easy to use ? just so you know , easy to learn will be separate , project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: so do n't overlap them . industrial designer: okay . marketing: i think it 's really easy to use . i 'll give it a two . industrial designer: um i 'll give it a one . pretty hard to mess up . user interface: i 'll say one . project manager: uh let 's say two . marketing: alright . um we next wan na see if it has a spongy quality industrial designer: user interface: marketing: and if indeed it 's made of latex or rubber i it 's spongy all the way . industrial designer: project manager: give it a one . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: i wonder if it bounces when you drop it . industrial designer: ooh , that you could n't marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: industrial designer: it 'd be harder to break , project manager: mm . industrial designer: harder to lose . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'cause there would be less impact maybe , . industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah marketing: iain , what do you give it ? user interface: i 'd i 'd give it a one . marketing: alright and the next is , does it integrate some notion of fruits and vegetables ? industrial designer: user interface: uh um . marketing: well , is it gon na be yellow ? industrial designer: it it might be , 'cause that 's our corporate colour , is n't it ? project manager: that 's right , yeah , corporate colour , we did n't keep that in user interface: yeah . project manager: um well industrial designer: we might wan na keep it yellow . project manager: if we i know it would make it a little less c a little more confusing , but if we had all the buttons in black , and a design in and the outside in yellow , that 'd be our corporate one and we could also have alternative colours , one a more conservative one , one that 's more fruity . user interface: marketing: yeah , but if you had like a silvery kind of white or something . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah , project manager: um and can we have like an r_r_ inscribed on the bottom or something ? industrial designer: if we had a yellow sure . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: oh , yeah . project manager: fruity , so fruity . industrial designer: so marketing: alright , so i think it it 's industrial designer: it was inspired by the potato , so i think it 's pretty fruity . marketing: yeah . project manager: i think i it 's kind of mangoey too . marketing: industrial designer: oh , mango user interface: mangoey is better , yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yes . marketing: i industrial designer: that that user interface: i like mangoes . marketing: okay , i 'm giving it a one the mango put me over . project manager: mm . industrial designer: that 's a much more trendy than a potato marketing: what are what 's everyone 's numbers ? industrial designer: one . user interface: uh two . project manager: one . industrial designer: marketing: alright um , and does the design match the appropriate behaviour ? remember earlier we discussed that people do n't use a lot of buttons , that they use the channel flipping and the volume the most . i think we really took that into account a lot , so i 'm gon na give it a one . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , me too . user interface: uh one . marketing: did you say one , rose ? project manager: yes . marketing: okay um , also we talked earlier about r_s_i_ and wanting to prevent um any sort of like carpal tunnely kind of thing . do we think that the latex sort of grip appropriately takes that into account ? i think i 'll give it a two , 'cause i almost feel like no matter what you do , something is gon na happen . project manager: it 's gon na be hard . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah , yeah . project manager: and if it 's repetitive movement it is gon na be only four buttons that you 're constantly pushing , but um marketing: um um worth the risk , i think . project manager: i like how it fits in the hand though so i i 'd go with a two . industrial designer: yeah . i 'll i 'll say two as well . because older people that are n't used to like texting with the thumb might find it a bit at first , project manager: mm . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: but user interface: yeah i 'll i 'll say two . marketing: alright , awesome . and the ease of learning it . i know you were saying that you 're a little bit nervous about that , i dunno . it sort of reminds me of the ipod . i just got mine , i still have n't read the instruction book and i 'm doing okay , so project manager: mm . marketing: and i 'm not good at learning technology . so i 'll give it a two . industrial designer: the menu system and the the fact that multiple buttons are used for different things might be a bit confusing , but i think if it 's one it 's one of those things that it might take you five minutes to figure out , but you 'll have it afterwards . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i 'd i think i 'd give it a two i guess . user interface: i think it it 's probably a little harder then most remotes to learn , because you have to you have to use the menu system and you have to tell it what your favourite channels are industrial designer: oh , good point . user interface: and that could take a bit of learning at first , but marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: once you 've , yeah once you 'd learned how to use it , i think it is a lot easier . so i 'd i 'd give it a four . marketing: okay . project manager: i think i 'd give it a four too . it 's a pretty high learning curve , it 'll be easy once you 've done it , but industrial designer: user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . alright , um also earlier we had something about losing it and so now we 're not addressing that at all , so project manager: we we industrial designer: project manager: i think we can kind of say we addressed it with colour , but marketing: okay , so in terms of not losing it , do you think that on a scale of one to seven , how easy or hard is it to lose ? i 'm gon na i 'm gon na give it a four , 'cause i think that you can still if it 's in between somewhere where you ca n't see it , you 're kind of not gon na find it , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but anywhere else it 's gon na stand out . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: um i 'd say i 'd give it uh a three , i guess it depends on how tidy you are normally . project manager: mm i 'd give it a four . user interface: um i 'll give it a five 'cause i it would be easy to lose something like that , yeah . project manager: small too . marketing: alright , we also said simplicity , how w how well does it address just being simple ? industrial designer: simple to use or simple in design ? do you know ? marketing: i think overall , 'cause we had said before our two main things were simplicity and fashion , industrial designer: marketing: so those are the next two things we 're gon na look at . separate from fancy , like that sort of thing . industrial designer: right . marketing: um it like wants to be simple but it 's not like totally totally simple , so i 'm gon na give it a two . industrial designer: i 'm give it a three i guess . user interface: i 'll give it a two . project manager: three . marketing: alright , and fashionable ? project manager: it 's totally fashionable . i 'd give it a one . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: it 's hot , i mean it 's a mango , come on . project manager: mango . marketing: i mean how fashionable can you make a remote ? i think it 's bringing technology and fashion together real really well . industrial designer: i dunno . user interface: industrial designer: i do n't think it 's quite as fashionable as my robot remote project manager: i do like uh the little martian one . industrial designer: or alien or whatever he was . marketing: yeah , the toggle on off switch , it 's really appealing . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: number . industrial designer: um two . user interface: three . project manager: one . marketing: and does it meet our like demographic need sort of for international appeal , that whole thing ? just that it would se serve our audience . i do n't see why not . project manager: mm-hmm . i think as long if we offer in a in at least three different colour arrangements . um yeah , that 's good . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so i 'll give it a a two . industrial designer: yeah , i 'll say two . marketing: alright , did anyone have any other features that they think were important that we did n't talk about ? project manager: well um we did n't we did n't address the fact that it does need to b have a corporate logo , so let 's let 's make sure we keep that in mind that we ha that one of our colours concepts is corporate and has an r_r_ on it . industrial designer: shall we uh well i think all of them should have an r_r_ . project manager: all of them should have r_r_ , yeah . marketing: and so we 're gon na do that , so it will address it , project manager: mm-hmm . mm 'kay . marketing: fine . okay . project manager: lovely . marketing: that 's me . project manager: okay , now we 're gon na look at finances . um i have an excel sheet that we 're actually gon na calculate the cost um , so let me exit out of this first . okay um industrial designer: oh my . marketing: whoa . project manager: i know . let me one more space . gon na zoom in real quick . okay . hand dynamo . we 're using kinetic battery , industrial designer: uh we 're n using kinetic , yeah . project manager: right ? um and we 're having one per one , okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um electronics . industrial designer: single . project manager: simple . industrial designer: simple , simple rather . marketing: simple . project manager: mm 'kay . um the case . industrial designer: uh uh uh double-curved . user interface: guess it 's double-curved . it is pretty curvy . project manager: it 's very curvy , marketing: yeah . project manager: so okay . industrial designer: yeah i never did get a picture of those so i do n't really know . our case material supplements oops , we just skipped by them . marketing: well do n't we need plastic , and industrial designer: no , we we the plastic is the plastic for the inside is assumed . the supplement is marketing: provided , okay . project manager: the wood ? industrial designer: oh , i guess it was rubber rather than latex . project manager: i mean the rubber . marketing: it was rubber and special colour , right ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm , okay . marketing: do we have more than one special colour ? project manager: yeah , we 're using we 're gon na need at least two special colours . industrial designer: uh well user interface: special colours , is n't it ? project manager: um . industrial designer: i do n't know what the se the basic colour is though . marketing: per project manager: i dunno where it yeah . marketing: well , but we know that we 're having at least three colours , project manager: so let 's y say three . marketing: so industrial designer: well , are we talking about on each colour combination or are we , you know , we 'll like we 'll have yellow and black . is that two special colours ? project manager: yeah , i dunno . that i thi industrial designer: or or is white and black , then two more or project manager: i thought that would be under yours . industrial designer: uh . i guess it 's three , project manager: we 'll just say three . industrial designer: three three . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: right . project manager: maybe the r_r_ will be in colour as well , industrial designer: alright . project manager: so yeah . interface , we 're doing push buttons . and how many buttons do we have ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we have six . user interface: we 've got five . project manager: six . industrial designer: six , with the power . user interface: oh marketing: oh user interface: six . marketing: no , five . project manager: anything else ? industrial designer: yeah . no . oh , we 'll do we wa are the buttons in special colour , special f i did n't get information on project manager: oh , marketing: oh wait . project manager: buttons oh , so um . so the case material will just have one colour , right , industrial designer: well , project manager: but then the buttons will be in special colours ? industrial designer: does it marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but if we 're making multiple varieties of this is where i 'm getting confused . project manager: we 're saying per unit . industrial designer: per unit , okay , okay . marketing: yeah , per unit . project manager: okay , so each unit will only have one colour on their industrial designer: alright , and each button s project manager: but the case is could have up to thr i mean the buttons could ea could be up to three colours , 'cause that how it 's designed there . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: i like it like that . project manager: so industrial designer: yeah , okay . project manager: special form ? they 're all kind of just push button , industrial designer: no , project manager: right ? industrial designer: i think they 're fine . user interface: yeah . project manager: special material ? industrial designer: material , we want them rubber as well probably , yeah . project manager: uh . oh do i have to do it per button , do i ? industrial designer: no , i do n't think so . i think they 're project manager: okay . industrial designer: if they 're all gon na be rubber then it that 's what it matters . marketing: yeah , 'cause it would n't make sense otherwise , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: 'cause for the whole mat case material it 's only one . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it 's i mean it 's two to make it rubber . industrial designer: okay . marketing: oh wait , so maybe . project manager: thirteen point seven . marketing: industrial designer: oh oh . project manager: yeah , what can we reduce ? industrial designer: okay , let 's have our buttons all be one colour . marketing: mm , i kind of like the buttons . project manager: let 's see what that would do . it 's only gon na bring us down to thirteen point three anyway . industrial designer: alright . project manager: okay um , are we sure this is double-curved ? industrial designer: uh . project manager: maybe it 's single-curved , industrial designer: we have no idea . project manager: we have no idea . industrial designer: i dunno , i did n't get any pictures . it 's single curved . marketing: it 's single curved . industrial designer: why not ? project manager: well it 's not the yeah . okay , it 's the kinetic battery that 's kind of expensive , but we have a simple chip , single curve , marketing: project manager: case material is rubber and it 's a special colour , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: but that 's important . six buttons we have to have six buttons . industrial designer: that is important . how did it get more expensive , what did you just change ? project manager: what ? industrial designer: it was it was thirteen and now it 's fifteen . project manager: no , okay , maybe not . i do n't know what just happened . now it 's twelve . marketing: we industrial designer: user interface: what was our target price again ? project manager: twelve point five . industrial designer: twelve point five . hey hey . user interface: twelve point five . so we 're just just about there . project manager: so we 're okay , i think . industrial designer: we 're all set then . project manager: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: ish . project manager: okay , we 're all set . industrial designer: alright . project manager: um save . i saved that to our um our big shared folder , so you know . um okay , back to agenda . um are the are the costs under twelve fifty euro ? yes . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , they are . project manager: let 's move on to the project evaluation . project process . satisfaction with for example the room for creativity , leadership , teamwork , the means , any new ideas found . so i guess what we 're gon na talk about here is just evaluating how we created this project , the information we got on the news , how we used it , if we were able to um , you know , use our creativity with the information , um how how well i guess i led it , um the how well we worked together as a team , um the digital pens , the whiteboard . marketing: project manager: okay . industrial designer: well . i felt very creative . user interface: i think we 've been successful industrial designer: i enjoyed making the prototypes . user interface: in that we 've achieved almost all of the design goals that we 've set industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and we 've come up with a finished project and we just about got cost . industrial designer: i think we could 've done even better with a little bit more information , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like what 's a single-curved case , how many colours , what do colours count project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: things , but given given what we had i think that we did we did really well . um i think we worked together pretty well . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , i mean if i 'd had more market research on the fruits and vegetables , maybe we could 've taken that into account . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: industrial designer: but the fruits and vegetables , they really my creativity , so . project manager: marketing: i know , i really did , the the whole mango idea was great . industrial designer: do you think we could user interface: marketing: no , i mean i thought the pen was a little distracting for me personally , like its heaviness , and like just being so conscious of like turning the pages , i dunno . that was a bit of a distraction . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that was the last one , like i chose not to do a powerpoint 'cause i did n't think it made sense to , so i liked that i had the option to do that and just to take my own notes and that whole sort of thing . project manager: mm-hmm . i think we all made um very significant contributions , user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: i do n't think anybody dominated it , which i thought was really good , like each of us was able to um like each of you had your information and i uh i tried to facilitate it without like taking over , um industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i like our little finished products . industrial designer: can we market this as the mango remote ? marketing: they 're funny . project manager: really cute . user interface: marketing: i kind of want one . user interface: industrial designer: should we have that somewhere on the packaging ? i have a little r_r_ . marketing: i 'm trying to think of a good pun that i could add there . project manager: i know , industrial designer: project manager: let 's think of it like a little jingle . marketing: project manager: um . industrial designer: marketing: i like the r_r_ , that 's gon na be etched in . industrial designer: yes . hopefully not with just my fingernail at some point but um it 's quite a useful little gadget . all thanks to iain for the design of that one . project manager: . okay um industrial designer: mm . what did we find for new ideas ? project manager: new ideas found ? industrial designer: people should really base their remotes on fruits and vegetables . project manager: definitely . or or at least be c p creative enough to think of toggle switches mm user interface: yeah . project manager: etcetera . industrial designer: i i am really into the idea of kinetic batteries now after reading about them . project manager: oh , i 'm so excited . user interface: industrial designer: that was marketing: yeah , i did n't even know they existed . industrial designer: i i knew you can get watches that had them , like really quite expensive watches that just never need a battery , 'cause you 're always moving your wrist . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but in other things , i think it 'd be really good . project manager: i thi yeah , that 's awesome . um okay , closing . are the costs within the budget ? is the project evaluated ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: now there 's the final questionnaire and meeting summary . um so , this is the great product kids , i think we 've created something really interesting and that we have a market for it , um especially if we can produce it at twelve point three industrial designer: yeah . project manager: which we hope um yeah . make sure in your questionnaire to put down criticisms of both the process and the um the final results and . industrial designer: marketing: yeah , real reaction . project manager: i do like the martian remote . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: if we could choose more than one , that would be my second choice . marketing: oh , that would definitely be my second choice . project manager: although the tog toggle user interface: mm . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: i 'm afraid i would user interface: that 's cool . let 's all let 's all go for the yellow marketing: i would break it . i would break it . project manager: it 's cool . i think i would break it . industrial designer: it started because i wanted to have it as st as a stem user interface: break the stem off . industrial designer: and then alright , so marketing: oh that 's funny . industrial designer: is it started as a pear , but then it started looking more and more like a martian project manager: oh industrial designer: when i put the user interface: marketing: kind of looks like a penguin , like with no eye . industrial designer: take me to your leader . project manager: yeah , it 's kind of a penguin . industrial designer: marketing: i like that it stands up . project manager: mm-mm . industrial designer: wow , maybe i should market it to some remote control company now . user interface: industrial designer: so are are project manager: user interface: that was bound to happen. $ marketing: oh , sad . industrial designer: poor little thing . project manager: mm 'kay , congratulations . um . anything else to say ? marketing: nothing will come up until after our meeting 's supposed to be over , project manager: alright . marketing: its all timed . project manager: um anybody have industrial designer: oh . marketing: oh . project manager: i got more master classes , anybody else wan na like take a master 's class ? industrial designer: it 's really funny that you got spam in your work emails . marketing: user interface: project manager: yeah , but check it out . so like there are all these like links , they do n't go anywhere . industrial designer: project manager: but all that you need to keep in mind your knowledge management . um just wan na make sure you do . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: marketing: no the first one that you sent like i did n't realise that it was a joke and i was like why did she send this to us ? project manager: oh industrial designer: marketing: it 's very it 's very work relevant , project manager: it is . marketing: 'cause people send spam a lot . project manager: yes definitely industrial designer: let 's see , project manager: i 'm very sad that i did n't get any links to the corporate website . . marketing: oh here you can you can view . industrial designer: what did i get through the corporate website ? it 's just inspiration about circuit boards . marketing: you can just see what 's up . project manager: wow . marketing: yeah it 's it 's really deep . hold on . takes a little while to get excited to load . that the excel thing is pretty cool . project manager: yes . industrial designer: yeah , that is pretty neat . project manager: i love excel , marketing: here , like , basically project manager: it 's one of my favourite programs . marketing: it 's like inspiration , basically i 'm gon na give you two sentences on fashion and that kind of thing , see . you did n't miss out that much . project manager: i see , mm . industrial designer: yeah , my inspiration from from last time is the in interior of a remote control being taken apart bit by bit , talking about circuit boards . project manager: spongy . industrial designer: i learned a lot actually . user interface: mm . industrial designer: i could probably take apart a remote control now if i really needed to . marketing: oh wow . this one was cooler . i got a whole table and everything . industrial designer: now i have all about circuits and chips and transponders and i wrote it all down , because i thought it would be relevant , like all the different parts of the inside of a remote control , but then they 're like , you do n't actually need this you just need to talk about the case . marketing: that 's like mine it was like , would you prefer an lcd screen or a multifunction remote control ? and then it did n't have like any kind of table , like awesome , i 'm glad they asked that question and did n't report the result . project manager: i i thought it was a little tricky having to hand around this thing . industrial designer: it 's really interesting though . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: we had a lot of the um otherwise the technology today was kinda cool . user interface: i think . yeah . industrial designer: that was really neat how i got emails project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and user interface: we did n't we did n't use the whiteboard that much . project manager: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: although i do n't see how we could have very l at least for me user interface: industrial designer: i yeah . if i 'd gotten pictures of the different parts of the case , the different looks of the case , i would have probably drawn them up , project manager: mm . industrial designer: but marketing: 'cause we were n't like voting on anything and i think usually , like whiteboards are good , you know like crossing out ideas , or like if we had had like a brainstorming period . industrial designer: yeah , we could 've put our brainstorming stuff up there rather than just talking about it , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but with only four people it does n't really make sense . marketing: but i thought we were good orally . project manager: and with and with the powerpoint that we can all look at , like you can do all those things pretty much on powerpoint industrial designer: i think if you had a larger group marketing: get crazy . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: as that 's not as necessary to have . user interface: yeah . marketing: and these might 've made us more willing to like take notes than to like write up them here , project manager: mm . marketing: 'cause we all needed them separately , kind of on the whiteboards in this room . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: because we 're all gon na be working in different places . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: we if we were all gon na stay in here all the time , then having the notes up on the whiteboard would 've been alright , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but everyone needs their own , like specific notes , i guess . project manager: now when you were um creating your um prototypes here , did you work together or did you like do separate projects ? user interface: uh we we worked together , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: um but we were making like we sort of made different shapes and then discussed how the how the buttons might work , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: um and how we could like improve on the on the design . industrial designer: so it was a bit of both really , we just kind of started out by each taking a colour of clay and just fooling around with it and i came up with that rhombus shape project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and he came up with the sort of potatoey , mangoey shape , and then just went from there really . project manager: cool . industrial designer: it was fun . so well done with the management , i felt well managed . project manager: oh thanks . user interface: i think we did well in first of all giving our meetings the time , project manager: it 's kinda fun . user interface: and second we actually we we did a good job of making firm decisions at the ends of the meetings . project manager: mm . user interface: and i marketing: sorry . industrial designer: that happened to me all the time though . user interface: i know what happens sometimes is that you tend to sort of have meetings and then people sorta drift away without anything actually really being decided . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but i think here we got we got clear and and decisive decisive points at the end of the meetings , so that we we knew where to go on from there . industrial designer: yeah , i was quite worried at the end of the last meeting that we were n't getting we did n't really have enough information to make firm decisions , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but we were able to do it regardless , so . i 'm not usually a very decisive person , so it helped to have people say this needs to be done in five minutes . project manager: this is what we 'll do . user interface: yeah . project manager: i found that we did we could have used another five or ten minutes sometimes in the meetings . industrial designer: especially last time , user interface: yeah , for some of the meetings , yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah i think the last time we had a lot of information , but at the same time not quite enough , industrial designer: yeah , project manager: you know what i mean , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: like we we could n't answer every single question . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: um but industrial designer: right . and i i felt the first two meetings , that i was coming in with no information , project manager: mm . industrial designer: and not sort of made me really like , ooh i do n't know , throwing together powerpoint out of no no information and then last time it was like the opposite . i had so much information and so much to talk about . project manager: it was interesting what came out like later , like as i was doing the when i was doing the breakdown on the agenda that they gave me um , that more points came out from your presentation even . industrial designer: yeah . mm . project manager: um . i 'm a little i am a little disappointed that we did n't do a um something for losing the remote , because that was kind of a big point . industrial designer: yeah . that was something like in order to talk about that we would 've had to have actual knowledge about circuit boards and things like project manager: about yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: well the problem was , even when we just were creating from the excel file , there was n't like a option to select to somehow have it included , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so there was no we could be like yeah , it has it included . industrial designer: i think we were project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: there was no way for us to have project manager: considered the re industrial designer: yeah . marketing: written down that it was really there . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think we were just getting overenthusiastic with the task . project manager: well marketing: project manager: it 's interesting that they industrial designer: i think we really got into it , i mean i got into it as the day went on and i got really like , ooh i 'm designing a remote control , i dunno if that 's just me , project manager: mm-hmm , yeah . industrial designer: but project manager: it was interesting though that they put that fifty percent of people say they have frustration with losing their remote and yet they did n't provide us with information to um we were n't provided with information to discuss that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: i know that like people people have like things they can put on their keys that you press it and it 'll beep , but i but i 'm sure that would require some kind of technology industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: that i just do n't know what it is , but industrial designer: i think there are some of those like infomercial remotes that have things so you wo n't lose them . project manager: mm . industrial designer: i dunno . i mean we were talking about it and like i in my household at least , there 's only about two places that the remote is ever project manager: hmm . industrial designer: 'cause there 's only one tv and there 's only like three chairs . marketing: that 's like saying you 're never gon na lose your keys , and i always do , anyway . you 'll lose 'em in your pocket , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: like you just will forget that or you like put it down somewhere that like made sense and then not remember , project manager: mm . marketing: there 's always ways to lose things . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it d yeah , it depends on how organised you are personally , but industrial designer: yeah , or like i guess what the setup of the house is too . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but , i mean i am notorious for losing my keys , project manager: industrial designer: i just i guess i 've just never lost the remote . i put my keys in the refrigerator the other night and could n't find them . user interface: industrial designer: 'cause i was putting groceries away . marketing: that 's funny . project manager: oh . industrial designer: you you 're taking stuff from a bag and putting them in the refrigerator and then go back to my room . project manager: ca n't get in . industrial designer: ca n't get in , look all around the kitchen . definitely in the vegetable drawer . project manager: marketing: that 's funny . industrial designer: so . marketing: i always do that , leaving it in my coat , and then like using a different coat . industrial designer: mm . project manager: yep . industrial designer: but i guess it 's 'cause we do n't carry remotes around that much . marketing: yeah . ca n't really take it into the other room . industrial designer: yeah . maybe with our little robot one we could 've had him have a robot , alien , pear , whatever he is , have a little voice like , i am located marketing: industrial designer: oh a g_p_s_ system , internal g_p_s_ . marketing: user interface: marketing: oh man . here you go . project manager: we should make one that walks by itself . industrial designer: although if it 's sitting still for too long . yes i user interface: marketing: that really could get up and walk away . project manager: or or like some crazy like electro-magnet , that you push it and it 'll go zoom to the tv and stick there . industrial designer: or little or just just a wheel , you know . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: just if you like you 'd have a remote for your remote , that 'll . user interface: yeah . project manager: well , but if you could attach them to the tv , then you can . industrial designer: zoom yeah . hmm . all kinds of possibilities . project manager: mm . okay . sorry , i 'm just um trying to update my minutes . i decided to you know how i sent you the email saying that powerpoint minutes will be complimentary , rather than like repeating them . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: just gon na make i 'm making full minutes , so that it 'll include all of the agenda and all that . industrial designer: oh . project manager: 'cause that seems a little more useful . industrial designer: wow . 'cause you 've had like the most typing and organising to do . project manager: but i did n't have like information to sloth through either , so industrial designer: yeah , i guess how much of your powerpoint was already done for you , every meeting . project manager: most of it , mm-hmm . i added slides , um i added a couple slides each time , industrial designer: oh . project manager: but that was about it . industrial designer: okay . yeah , i did n't even think about adding slides , 'cause i would just get slides with titles on them project manager: mm . industrial designer: and fill them all in w did n't even think about adding more . project manager: well , the thing was they would provide y an agenda with s like several points , but it would n't have a slide for each point . and that 's the only way i remember that i need to go other that point . industrial designer: ah yeah . . project manager: i know personally when i do powerpoint , that 's what i do and so i had it once , even if it was just like the title of it , like the three presentations , and i would do your three . industrial designer: right . marketing: you have you have to have the slogan on it or can it just be like project manager: the slogan on it ? industrial designer: no , no , definitely not . project manager: no no no . marketing: okay good . industrial designer: we marketing: 'cause i was like , it could go around the outside . industrial designer: no , i do n't think we need to user interface: project manager: i think we just need the um the r_r_ , industrial designer: i think the r_ and r_ , especially if the yellow and black one . project manager: yeah . marketing: is it yellow and blue ? industrial designer: or yellow and blue . lem me go to the web page . project manager: yeah , i was just kinda going by the web page , 'cause they did n't give me any clear , like yellow , grey , or . marketing: oh i guess it is black , grey . grey is better than black , does n't look so bumblebeeish . project manager: i do n't really like yellow in general . marketing: hey now i understand the random like newsclippings . project manager: but it industrial designer: finish meeting now . marketing: project manager: was n't it interesting that um i thought it was interesting that our market marketing um expert did not agree with the marketing um marketing: yes . project manager: the marketing choices , industrial designer: user interface: project manager: you know , like industrial designer: marketing: i will project manager: that was a bit of a conflict . marketing: i just feel like if you 're really doing like a a really big market evaluation , you would n't just have like one set of source , industrial designer: marketing: it 's kind of an they were so not backed up , it would just be a sentence like we did a survey , this is what people said . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: s mm , i dunno . project manager: people are stupid . industrial designer: i guess it i it sort of a grey , is n't it ? yellow and grey , but then the slogan 's in blue . marketing: well we got some grey and we got some blue buttons , we 're good . industrial designer: yeah . well we do n't have the right colour clay anyway . project manager: maybe , like i do n't know . that could always be . industrial designer: well we 're not , sadly , going to actually be producing this , so . project manager: oh . marketing: if they ever come out with potato industrial designer: potato mango shaped remotes . marketing: i 'm gon na have to project manager: i 'm claiming it intellectual property . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i ca n't believe a whole day is gone . i do n't feel like it 's been that long . marketing: i know . industrial designer: get sucked in . mm i have n't gotten questionnaire eight yet .

the group set the target price at 12.5 euros and limited the cost under 12.5 euros . so they agreed to use one kinetic battery , single electronics , single-curved rubber case with colour per unit and up to three colours . also , they decided to have six buttons in one colour .

what did the group think of the buttons in special colours when discussing the finance ? </s> project manager: okay um , welcome to our detailed design meeting . i 'm pretty excited . let 's start it 's approximately fifteen forty or something like that . okay um the agenda we 're gon na do an opening and then um i 'll talk about the minutes from the last meeting , what we d discussed um , then we 'll have the prototype presentation and a look at the evaluation criteria . we 'll look at the finances and finally a do a production evaluation and close . so , starting off with the um last the last one , oh i do n't have it here um , but we talked about energy , we 're gon na use a kinetic battery um , we want to use a simple chip , because we 're not gon na need a a shuffle um , we 're gon na need a scroll um , we 're choosing a latex case w in fruity colours that 's curved and um we 're using push buttons uh with a supplement of an on-screen menu . and it sounded like we had set um like eight or nine buttons , including five pre-set channels . okay ? let 's do the look and feel design presentation first . user interface: right , do you wan na start ? industrial designer: right , well we made three different prototypes and i guess we 'll start with with this one . um we have our colours not are not fixed , but this is the general shape . um it 's you hold it sort of either like like this in your left hand or you switch it over and uh it 's easily adaptable to either hand . you can push the buttons with your thumb like a mobile phone , or you can push them with your index finger of your other hand , or even i mean there 's a whole variety , you can hold it like this and press it with your same index finger . uh we have the on off button at the tip , very visible , very big . we have our up and down buttons , which are also gon na be our channel selectors , and we have our little menu button here . if you push if you 're just pushing these normally , they 're the menu buttons , if uh the volume buttons rather . if you press select once , they become channel changing buttons . if we press select three times , the menu with the other features and pro possibly also with your tv channel choices shows up , and you have your five presets down here . um if people wan na grab hold of that , see how it feels in your hand . that 's our number one prototype . um do you wan na present the potato , project manager: like a little lightning in it . industrial designer: or shall i present the martian ? user interface: okay , project manager: the little lightning bolt in it , very cute . user interface: um what we call that one the rhombus , marketing: i could project manager: the v the rhombus rhombus ? user interface: uh the rhombus . industrial designer: that 's the rhombus , yep . user interface: um this one is known as the potato , uh it 's industrial designer: user interface: it 's a marketing: user interface: how can i present it ? it 's an ergonomic shape , so it it fits in your hand nicely . um it 's designed to be used either in your left hand or or in your right hand . um i 've gone here just for just for four buttons on this one . um the two blue buttons here are for adjusting the volume . so you 've got volume up and volume down on the other side here . um the red ones are for uh changing channels , channel up and channel down and that 's um moves between your favourite channels that you 've selected . uh this middle button here brings up the on-screen menu and when you 're working in the on-screen menu you use the other four buttons to navigate around the menu system and the middle button uh to select and that 's basically it , that 's the potato . project manager: um on , off ? user interface: uh that would be one of your channels , basically , project manager: okay . user interface: so like channel zero would be t to switch switch the machine off , project manager: yeah we turn it off . user interface: yeah . marketing: could the middle button of the on-screen menu function as a power button ? user interface: um not really , industrial designer: user interface: it would make it hard to turn the machine off , to turn your tv off . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: if you pressed and held it maybe . user interface: yeah yeah , that that 'd be one way of doing it , yeah . that 'd work , yeah . marketing: if you like held it down , that would be on off . industrial designer: yeah . on off , that 's a possibility , yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and then finally we have um the martian or the pear , either way . um it 's a bit different , just a little bit more of a creative feel . uh you have the on off toggle stem on the top . we have the five preset seeds . project manager: industrial designer: and then you have on the sides to make it a little bit more three-dimensional , you have your channel changing , volume changing buttons and your menu button right here in the middle . so , that 's for your consideration as well , plus it 's an interesting talking point to have standing up . user interface: let 's pass . industrial designer: we figured it could stand up like this on your table , if you wanted it to , if i made the bot the bottom flat . project manager: uh-huh . marketing: sorry , what 's the yellow one in the middle , industrial designer: uh the menu select button . marketing: i forgot . project manager: very interesting . i think that one 's my favourite . industrial designer: user interface: so that 's so that 's our three prototypes . um basically , in terms of making decisions , what we 'd need to do is first of all decide on a form uh which of the three different shapes we want , then decide what kind of button layout we want , how many buttons , and then to choose what colours we want to make the buttons and if we wan na put any text on the device , like label on the buttons or put a brand name or or a logo on it or whatever . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: we were we were thinking that normally we 'd go for fruity colours , but maybe we 're also thinking that your sort of middle aged man , for an example customer , might not want a fruity coloured remote , so m maybe we 'd have one version that 's a bit toned down , project manager: mm 'kay . industrial designer: maybe with with less contrasts on it . yeah , something still a little bright to make it hard to lose , but user interface: would yeah , but we do n't want it to look like a kids ' toy . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: now that was one thing that we brought up over email . i do n't know if you picked up your email , but um the f the um feature that we considered for it not getting lost . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: right . well we were we were talking about that a little bit when we got that email and we think that each of these are so distinctive , that it it 's not just like another piece of technology around your house . it 's gon na be somewhere that it can be seen . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so we 're we 're not thinking that it 's gon na be as critical to have the loss marketing: but if it 's like under covers or like in a couch you still ca n't see it . project manager: it 's really would it be very difficult to um just have an external device that like i dunno , you tape to your to your tv um that when you press it you ha a little light beep goes off ? do you think that would be conceptually possible ? industrial designer: i think user interface: i think it would be difficult technologically , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: because if your if your remote 's lost it 's probably under the settee and in that case you ca n't you ca n't send an infrared sing signal to it to find it , project manager: mm . user interface: s so it 's i 'm not quite sure how it would work project manager: that 's true , mm 'kay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then i wonder if it 's if it 's more just a gimmick then anything else . uh i mean ho how many times do you really , seriously lose your remote control and would would a device like that actually help you to find it ? industrial designer: there might be something that you can do in the circuit board and the chip to make it make a noise or something , but it would take a lot more development than we have this afternoon . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , that 's a fair evaluation . getting lost . um we so we do we 've decided not to worry about that for now . okay 'cause well , the designs are very bright , so you 're right , they 're gon na stick out , but um industrial designer: so d do people have a preference as far as feel and functionality ? um . marketing: i feel like this is simil or it 's sort of what already exists so if we 're trying to think of something sort of like new and fun , even though this is like what you 're init i 'm initially drawn to , just 'cause it 's like comfortable and like not different . i sort of like this one , like i i do n't know why , it just it 's like small but still sort of like cute looking , i dunno . but i also like the b the side buttons on that one , like i think that 's kind of neat . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but i dunno how much any of this has to do with the fashionable , sort of cool looking thing that we also need to focus on . project manager: could we maybe have like an extra button on the top for on off ? so then w we would n't have to have like a dual function ? industrial designer: mm yeah , user interface: yeah , it 's possible , yeah , yeah . marketing: ah , industrial designer: that 's good , that 's good . marketing: there we go . industrial designer: here , stick it on . user interface: put an extra the button on . marketing: project manager: sure . industrial designer: project manager: um uh why do n't we do a product evaluation using your criteria , if you 've developed some ? marketing: well do we w like i think we 're supposed to have one that we do it for . project manager: oh okay . okay . marketing: that was industrial designer: so where marketing: i was a little vague on what exactly i 'm supposed to do , but let me i have to like write something on the whiteboard , so . project manager: okay . do you need this industrial designer: project manager: or just write on the white board ? marketing: no , i actually do n't have like a powerpointy thing , project manager: okay . industrial designer: right . marketing: 'cause i think it would be redundant . industrial designer: okay . marketing: i dunno . project manager: it 's kind of like uh like a joystick kind of thing , industrial designer: ooh . project manager: you know , user interface: cool . project manager: kinda push it . industrial designer: hey . project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: project manager: maybe a little smaller than that . industrial designer: no , i kinda like it . user interface: industrial designer: that 's hard to miss . user interface: it makes look more fruity as well . project manager: oh it does , industrial designer: project manager: it 's kind of like industrial designer: user interface: it 's like a deformed foot , i dunno . project manager: there it could have a stem like that , 'cause i do l kind of like the stem . industrial designer: like user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . it almost helps you ge keep a grip too , 'cause it goes in between fingers . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: interesting . project manager: i like this one . industrial designer: okay , project manager: variety of colours are nice . industrial designer: is that where people are leaning then , the potato ? i like the idea of the project manager: i think i 'm leaning towards the potato . industrial designer: i mean that 's really gotten the simplicity of the buttons down , that one . project manager: mm-hmm . i am worried about like um using a menu . um in that like i withing menus there are submenus , and so how do you get back to the main menu ? industrial designer: hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: well that on the ipod , for example , you just every time you wan na go back you hit the menu button again and it brings you back one level . project manager: but that has a menu button separate from a select button , whereas if this one 's both the menu and the select button ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: good point . user interface: this is , it 's the up and down buttons are used for scrolling up and down for a list of choices . project manager: okay . user interface: you find the choice that you want and you press uh you press the right button uh . project manager: could these be used for going to submenus marketing: user interface: yeah . yeah , so they 're used for going into and out of your submenus , yeah . project manager: or industrial designer: maybe yeah , project manager: okay . industrial designer: maybe it can be one of those , if you press down and hold for two seconds , then it brings you back one level or something . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . well , as long as we have that in mind as we 're designing it still , mm 'kay . marketing: okay , so which one are we sort of roughly looking at to address whether or not it meets our s um necessities , the yellowy one is that industrial designer: the potato ? are we leaning towards the potato ? user interface: potato . project manager: i think so . marketing: okay , well we can obviously change it after we go through each different one . industrial designer: okay . marketing: so basically what we need to do is some of the things that we 've talked about before we need to make sure that that remote actually does conform to the things that we said it was going to . industrial designer: okay . marketing: so what we sort of wan na do is that we each need to separately rank each of the following things and then i 'll tabulate an average just to make sure that it does meet that . industrial designer: okay . marketing: so we 'll just go through them one at a time and we 'll just go around and each of you can tell me on a scale of one to seven with one being really extremely true and seven being not true at all , or false , if the remote that we 've created conforms to the following criteria . so we can do this one first . first we wan na know if it meets the fancy look and feel um objective . so like in my opinion the for now at least , the yellow one is probably somewhere in the middle so i 'm gon na say it 's like a three . that 's just my opinion . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: what does each of you project manager: i i kind of think it 's it 's unique enough that i 'd give it a one or a two . marketing: okay , well give it a number , project manager: okay . marketing: sorry . project manager: i will give it a one . industrial designer: um i dunno if it 's it 's creative . i dunno if fancy is the word i would use . i dunno if any of them are fancy in i 'd say two , because c unique . marketing: okay . user interface: i 'll go for two . marketing: and two , awesome . alright , and same sort of scale for functionality , is it functional ? i think it 's extremely functional , i 'm gon na give it a one . industrial designer: yeah , one . marketing: one ? user interface: i think it 's it 's functional , it 's also pretty basic , so i 'll give it a two . marketing: okay . project manager: um functional . i think it 'll get everything done , i think it might be a little confusing at first , um , i do n't know if that 's gon na be a later one . marketing: okay . well there 's some other ones , i will address that , project manager: okay , then i 'm gon na give it a two . marketing: yeah . awesome , okay . um we wan na know next if it 's technologically innovative . project manager: did you give a functional ? marketing: yeah , she said it was one . project manager: okay . marketing: um is it technologically innovative ? mm . not really , i mean not so much , 'cause we we do n't have the lcd screen , we do n't have fancy chip . other than what it looks like , i dunno if it 's really project manager: well , the kinetic battery . industrial designer: in the battery , that 's it . marketing: i kinetic battery is a big one , so . industrial designer: how many people would notice that , though ? marketing: mm . but it project manager: but they 'll notice it after like a year , marketing: but we know it 's there . project manager: they 'll be like hey , i have never changed the battery . marketing: and if it 's made of like latex , that whole idea , that 's pretty cool . project manager: mm . just the material . marketing: i 'll give it a three . 'cause it we could 've picked a lot of features that would 've made it really industrial designer: yeah . i i would say that it 's yeah , like fancy versus creative it 's it 's different . but does that equal innovative ? i dunno . i 'll give it a three . marketing: alright . everyone else ? user interface: i 'd say it 's technologically it 's not it 's not unique , i mean it 's it 's just it is just pushbuttons um , so i i 'd give it a four . project manager: think i 'm gon na go with the four as well . marketing: mm 'kay . project manager: i really like that kinetic battery though . marketing: next , is it easy to use ? just so you know , easy to learn will be separate , project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: so do n't overlap them . industrial designer: okay . marketing: i think it 's really easy to use . i 'll give it a two . industrial designer: um i 'll give it a one . pretty hard to mess up . user interface: i 'll say one . project manager: uh let 's say two . marketing: alright . um we next wan na see if it has a spongy quality industrial designer: user interface: marketing: and if indeed it 's made of latex or rubber i it 's spongy all the way . industrial designer: project manager: give it a one . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: i wonder if it bounces when you drop it . industrial designer: ooh , that you could n't marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: industrial designer: it 'd be harder to break , project manager: mm . industrial designer: harder to lose . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'cause there would be less impact maybe , . industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah marketing: iain , what do you give it ? user interface: i 'd i 'd give it a one . marketing: alright and the next is , does it integrate some notion of fruits and vegetables ? industrial designer: user interface: uh um . marketing: well , is it gon na be yellow ? industrial designer: it it might be , 'cause that 's our corporate colour , is n't it ? project manager: that 's right , yeah , corporate colour , we did n't keep that in user interface: yeah . project manager: um well industrial designer: we might wan na keep it yellow . project manager: if we i know it would make it a little less c a little more confusing , but if we had all the buttons in black , and a design in and the outside in yellow , that 'd be our corporate one and we could also have alternative colours , one a more conservative one , one that 's more fruity . user interface: marketing: yeah , but if you had like a silvery kind of white or something . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah , project manager: um and can we have like an r_r_ inscribed on the bottom or something ? industrial designer: if we had a yellow sure . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: oh , yeah . project manager: fruity , so fruity . industrial designer: so marketing: alright , so i think it it 's industrial designer: it was inspired by the potato , so i think it 's pretty fruity . marketing: yeah . project manager: i think i it 's kind of mangoey too . marketing: industrial designer: oh , mango user interface: mangoey is better , yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yes . marketing: i industrial designer: that that user interface: i like mangoes . marketing: okay , i 'm giving it a one the mango put me over . project manager: mm . industrial designer: that 's a much more trendy than a potato marketing: what are what 's everyone 's numbers ? industrial designer: one . user interface: uh two . project manager: one . industrial designer: marketing: alright um , and does the design match the appropriate behaviour ? remember earlier we discussed that people do n't use a lot of buttons , that they use the channel flipping and the volume the most . i think we really took that into account a lot , so i 'm gon na give it a one . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , me too . user interface: uh one . marketing: did you say one , rose ? project manager: yes . marketing: okay um , also we talked earlier about r_s_i_ and wanting to prevent um any sort of like carpal tunnely kind of thing . do we think that the latex sort of grip appropriately takes that into account ? i think i 'll give it a two , 'cause i almost feel like no matter what you do , something is gon na happen . project manager: it 's gon na be hard . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah , yeah . project manager: and if it 's repetitive movement it is gon na be only four buttons that you 're constantly pushing , but um marketing: um um worth the risk , i think . project manager: i like how it fits in the hand though so i i 'd go with a two . industrial designer: yeah . i 'll i 'll say two as well . because older people that are n't used to like texting with the thumb might find it a bit at first , project manager: mm . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: but user interface: yeah i 'll i 'll say two . marketing: alright , awesome . and the ease of learning it . i know you were saying that you 're a little bit nervous about that , i dunno . it sort of reminds me of the ipod . i just got mine , i still have n't read the instruction book and i 'm doing okay , so project manager: mm . marketing: and i 'm not good at learning technology . so i 'll give it a two . industrial designer: the menu system and the the fact that multiple buttons are used for different things might be a bit confusing , but i think if it 's one it 's one of those things that it might take you five minutes to figure out , but you 'll have it afterwards . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i 'd i think i 'd give it a two i guess . user interface: i think it it 's probably a little harder then most remotes to learn , because you have to you have to use the menu system and you have to tell it what your favourite channels are industrial designer: oh , good point . user interface: and that could take a bit of learning at first , but marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: once you 've , yeah once you 'd learned how to use it , i think it is a lot easier . so i 'd i 'd give it a four . marketing: okay . project manager: i think i 'd give it a four too . it 's a pretty high learning curve , it 'll be easy once you 've done it , but industrial designer: user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . alright , um also earlier we had something about losing it and so now we 're not addressing that at all , so project manager: we we industrial designer: project manager: i think we can kind of say we addressed it with colour , but marketing: okay , so in terms of not losing it , do you think that on a scale of one to seven , how easy or hard is it to lose ? i 'm gon na i 'm gon na give it a four , 'cause i think that you can still if it 's in between somewhere where you ca n't see it , you 're kind of not gon na find it , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but anywhere else it 's gon na stand out . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: um i 'd say i 'd give it uh a three , i guess it depends on how tidy you are normally . project manager: mm i 'd give it a four . user interface: um i 'll give it a five 'cause i it would be easy to lose something like that , yeah . project manager: small too . marketing: alright , we also said simplicity , how w how well does it address just being simple ? industrial designer: simple to use or simple in design ? do you know ? marketing: i think overall , 'cause we had said before our two main things were simplicity and fashion , industrial designer: marketing: so those are the next two things we 're gon na look at . separate from fancy , like that sort of thing . industrial designer: right . marketing: um it like wants to be simple but it 's not like totally totally simple , so i 'm gon na give it a two . industrial designer: i 'm give it a three i guess . user interface: i 'll give it a two . project manager: three . marketing: alright , and fashionable ? project manager: it 's totally fashionable . i 'd give it a one . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: it 's hot , i mean it 's a mango , come on . project manager: mango . marketing: i mean how fashionable can you make a remote ? i think it 's bringing technology and fashion together real really well . industrial designer: i dunno . user interface: industrial designer: i do n't think it 's quite as fashionable as my robot remote project manager: i do like uh the little martian one . industrial designer: or alien or whatever he was . marketing: yeah , the toggle on off switch , it 's really appealing . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: number . industrial designer: um two . user interface: three . project manager: one . marketing: and does it meet our like demographic need sort of for international appeal , that whole thing ? just that it would se serve our audience . i do n't see why not . project manager: mm-hmm . i think as long if we offer in a in at least three different colour arrangements . um yeah , that 's good . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so i 'll give it a a two . industrial designer: yeah , i 'll say two . marketing: alright , did anyone have any other features that they think were important that we did n't talk about ? project manager: well um we did n't we did n't address the fact that it does need to b have a corporate logo , so let 's let 's make sure we keep that in mind that we ha that one of our colours concepts is corporate and has an r_r_ on it . industrial designer: shall we uh well i think all of them should have an r_r_ . project manager: all of them should have r_r_ , yeah . marketing: and so we 're gon na do that , so it will address it , project manager: mm-hmm . mm 'kay . marketing: fine . okay . project manager: lovely . marketing: that 's me . project manager: okay , now we 're gon na look at finances . um i have an excel sheet that we 're actually gon na calculate the cost um , so let me exit out of this first . okay um industrial designer: oh my . marketing: whoa . project manager: i know . let me one more space . gon na zoom in real quick . okay . hand dynamo . we 're using kinetic battery , industrial designer: uh we 're n using kinetic , yeah . project manager: right ? um and we 're having one per one , okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um electronics . industrial designer: single . project manager: simple . industrial designer: simple , simple rather . marketing: simple . project manager: mm 'kay . um the case . industrial designer: uh uh uh double-curved . user interface: guess it 's double-curved . it is pretty curvy . project manager: it 's very curvy , marketing: yeah . project manager: so okay . industrial designer: yeah i never did get a picture of those so i do n't really know . our case material supplements oops , we just skipped by them . marketing: well do n't we need plastic , and industrial designer: no , we we the plastic is the plastic for the inside is assumed . the supplement is marketing: provided , okay . project manager: the wood ? industrial designer: oh , i guess it was rubber rather than latex . project manager: i mean the rubber . marketing: it was rubber and special colour , right ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm , okay . marketing: do we have more than one special colour ? project manager: yeah , we 're using we 're gon na need at least two special colours . industrial designer: uh well user interface: special colours , is n't it ? project manager: um . industrial designer: i do n't know what the se the basic colour is though . marketing: per project manager: i dunno where it yeah . marketing: well , but we know that we 're having at least three colours , project manager: so let 's y say three . marketing: so industrial designer: well , are we talking about on each colour combination or are we , you know , we 'll like we 'll have yellow and black . is that two special colours ? project manager: yeah , i dunno . that i thi industrial designer: or or is white and black , then two more or project manager: i thought that would be under yours . industrial designer: uh . i guess it 's three , project manager: we 'll just say three . industrial designer: three three . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: right . project manager: maybe the r_r_ will be in colour as well , industrial designer: alright . project manager: so yeah . interface , we 're doing push buttons . and how many buttons do we have ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we have six . user interface: we 've got five . project manager: six . industrial designer: six , with the power . user interface: oh marketing: oh user interface: six . marketing: no , five . project manager: anything else ? industrial designer: yeah . no . oh , we 'll do we wa are the buttons in special colour , special f i did n't get information on project manager: oh , marketing: oh wait . project manager: buttons oh , so um . so the case material will just have one colour , right , industrial designer: well , project manager: but then the buttons will be in special colours ? industrial designer: does it marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but if we 're making multiple varieties of this is where i 'm getting confused . project manager: we 're saying per unit . industrial designer: per unit , okay , okay . marketing: yeah , per unit . project manager: okay , so each unit will only have one colour on their industrial designer: alright , and each button s project manager: but the case is could have up to thr i mean the buttons could ea could be up to three colours , 'cause that how it 's designed there . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: i like it like that . project manager: so industrial designer: yeah , okay . project manager: special form ? they 're all kind of just push button , industrial designer: no , project manager: right ? industrial designer: i think they 're fine . user interface: yeah . project manager: special material ? industrial designer: material , we want them rubber as well probably , yeah . project manager: uh . oh do i have to do it per button , do i ? industrial designer: no , i do n't think so . i think they 're project manager: okay . industrial designer: if they 're all gon na be rubber then it that 's what it matters . marketing: yeah , 'cause it would n't make sense otherwise , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: 'cause for the whole mat case material it 's only one . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it 's i mean it 's two to make it rubber . industrial designer: okay . marketing: oh wait , so maybe . project manager: thirteen point seven . marketing: industrial designer: oh oh . project manager: yeah , what can we reduce ? industrial designer: okay , let 's have our buttons all be one colour . marketing: mm , i kind of like the buttons . project manager: let 's see what that would do . it 's only gon na bring us down to thirteen point three anyway . industrial designer: alright . project manager: okay um , are we sure this is double-curved ? industrial designer: uh . project manager: maybe it 's single-curved , industrial designer: we have no idea . project manager: we have no idea . industrial designer: i dunno , i did n't get any pictures . it 's single curved . marketing: it 's single curved . industrial designer: why not ? project manager: well it 's not the yeah . okay , it 's the kinetic battery that 's kind of expensive , but we have a simple chip , single curve , marketing: project manager: case material is rubber and it 's a special colour , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: but that 's important . six buttons we have to have six buttons . industrial designer: that is important . how did it get more expensive , what did you just change ? project manager: what ? industrial designer: it was it was thirteen and now it 's fifteen . project manager: no , okay , maybe not . i do n't know what just happened . now it 's twelve . marketing: we industrial designer: user interface: what was our target price again ? project manager: twelve point five . industrial designer: twelve point five . hey hey . user interface: twelve point five . so we 're just just about there . project manager: so we 're okay , i think . industrial designer: we 're all set then . project manager: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: ish . project manager: okay , we 're all set . industrial designer: alright . project manager: um save . i saved that to our um our big shared folder , so you know . um okay , back to agenda . um are the are the costs under twelve fifty euro ? yes . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , they are . project manager: let 's move on to the project evaluation . project process . satisfaction with for example the room for creativity , leadership , teamwork , the means , any new ideas found . so i guess what we 're gon na talk about here is just evaluating how we created this project , the information we got on the news , how we used it , if we were able to um , you know , use our creativity with the information , um how how well i guess i led it , um the how well we worked together as a team , um the digital pens , the whiteboard . marketing: project manager: okay . industrial designer: well . i felt very creative . user interface: i think we 've been successful industrial designer: i enjoyed making the prototypes . user interface: in that we 've achieved almost all of the design goals that we 've set industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and we 've come up with a finished project and we just about got cost . industrial designer: i think we could 've done even better with a little bit more information , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like what 's a single-curved case , how many colours , what do colours count project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: things , but given given what we had i think that we did we did really well . um i think we worked together pretty well . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , i mean if i 'd had more market research on the fruits and vegetables , maybe we could 've taken that into account . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: industrial designer: but the fruits and vegetables , they really my creativity , so . project manager: marketing: i know , i really did , the the whole mango idea was great . industrial designer: do you think we could user interface: marketing: no , i mean i thought the pen was a little distracting for me personally , like its heaviness , and like just being so conscious of like turning the pages , i dunno . that was a bit of a distraction . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that was the last one , like i chose not to do a powerpoint 'cause i did n't think it made sense to , so i liked that i had the option to do that and just to take my own notes and that whole sort of thing . project manager: mm-hmm . i think we all made um very significant contributions , user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: i do n't think anybody dominated it , which i thought was really good , like each of us was able to um like each of you had your information and i uh i tried to facilitate it without like taking over , um industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i like our little finished products . industrial designer: can we market this as the mango remote ? marketing: they 're funny . project manager: really cute . user interface: marketing: i kind of want one . user interface: industrial designer: should we have that somewhere on the packaging ? i have a little r_r_ . marketing: i 'm trying to think of a good pun that i could add there . project manager: i know , industrial designer: project manager: let 's think of it like a little jingle . marketing: project manager: um . industrial designer: marketing: i like the r_r_ , that 's gon na be etched in . industrial designer: yes . hopefully not with just my fingernail at some point but um it 's quite a useful little gadget . all thanks to iain for the design of that one . project manager: . okay um industrial designer: mm . what did we find for new ideas ? project manager: new ideas found ? industrial designer: people should really base their remotes on fruits and vegetables . project manager: definitely . or or at least be c p creative enough to think of toggle switches mm user interface: yeah . project manager: etcetera . industrial designer: i i am really into the idea of kinetic batteries now after reading about them . project manager: oh , i 'm so excited . user interface: industrial designer: that was marketing: yeah , i did n't even know they existed . industrial designer: i i knew you can get watches that had them , like really quite expensive watches that just never need a battery , 'cause you 're always moving your wrist . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but in other things , i think it 'd be really good . project manager: i thi yeah , that 's awesome . um okay , closing . are the costs within the budget ? is the project evaluated ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: now there 's the final questionnaire and meeting summary . um so , this is the great product kids , i think we 've created something really interesting and that we have a market for it , um especially if we can produce it at twelve point three industrial designer: yeah . project manager: which we hope um yeah . make sure in your questionnaire to put down criticisms of both the process and the um the final results and . industrial designer: marketing: yeah , real reaction . project manager: i do like the martian remote . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: if we could choose more than one , that would be my second choice . marketing: oh , that would definitely be my second choice . project manager: although the tog toggle user interface: mm . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: i 'm afraid i would user interface: that 's cool . let 's all let 's all go for the yellow marketing: i would break it . i would break it . project manager: it 's cool . i think i would break it . industrial designer: it started because i wanted to have it as st as a stem user interface: break the stem off . industrial designer: and then alright , so marketing: oh that 's funny . industrial designer: is it started as a pear , but then it started looking more and more like a martian project manager: oh industrial designer: when i put the user interface: marketing: kind of looks like a penguin , like with no eye . industrial designer: take me to your leader . project manager: yeah , it 's kind of a penguin . industrial designer: marketing: i like that it stands up . project manager: mm-mm . industrial designer: wow , maybe i should market it to some remote control company now . user interface: industrial designer: so are are project manager: user interface: that was bound to happen. $ marketing: oh , sad . industrial designer: poor little thing . project manager: mm 'kay , congratulations . um . anything else to say ? marketing: nothing will come up until after our meeting 's supposed to be over , project manager: alright . marketing: its all timed . project manager: um anybody have industrial designer: oh . marketing: oh . project manager: i got more master classes , anybody else wan na like take a master 's class ? industrial designer: it 's really funny that you got spam in your work emails . marketing: user interface: project manager: yeah , but check it out . so like there are all these like links , they do n't go anywhere . industrial designer: project manager: but all that you need to keep in mind your knowledge management . um just wan na make sure you do . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: marketing: no the first one that you sent like i did n't realise that it was a joke and i was like why did she send this to us ? project manager: oh industrial designer: marketing: it 's very it 's very work relevant , project manager: it is . marketing: 'cause people send spam a lot . project manager: yes definitely industrial designer: let 's see , project manager: i 'm very sad that i did n't get any links to the corporate website . . marketing: oh here you can you can view . industrial designer: what did i get through the corporate website ? it 's just inspiration about circuit boards . marketing: you can just see what 's up . project manager: wow . marketing: yeah it 's it 's really deep . hold on . takes a little while to get excited to load . that the excel thing is pretty cool . project manager: yes . industrial designer: yeah , that is pretty neat . project manager: i love excel , marketing: here , like , basically project manager: it 's one of my favourite programs . marketing: it 's like inspiration , basically i 'm gon na give you two sentences on fashion and that kind of thing , see . you did n't miss out that much . project manager: i see , mm . industrial designer: yeah , my inspiration from from last time is the in interior of a remote control being taken apart bit by bit , talking about circuit boards . project manager: spongy . industrial designer: i learned a lot actually . user interface: mm . industrial designer: i could probably take apart a remote control now if i really needed to . marketing: oh wow . this one was cooler . i got a whole table and everything . industrial designer: now i have all about circuits and chips and transponders and i wrote it all down , because i thought it would be relevant , like all the different parts of the inside of a remote control , but then they 're like , you do n't actually need this you just need to talk about the case . marketing: that 's like mine it was like , would you prefer an lcd screen or a multifunction remote control ? and then it did n't have like any kind of table , like awesome , i 'm glad they asked that question and did n't report the result . project manager: i i thought it was a little tricky having to hand around this thing . industrial designer: it 's really interesting though . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: we had a lot of the um otherwise the technology today was kinda cool . user interface: i think . yeah . industrial designer: that was really neat how i got emails project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and user interface: we did n't we did n't use the whiteboard that much . project manager: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: although i do n't see how we could have very l at least for me user interface: industrial designer: i yeah . if i 'd gotten pictures of the different parts of the case , the different looks of the case , i would have probably drawn them up , project manager: mm . industrial designer: but marketing: 'cause we were n't like voting on anything and i think usually , like whiteboards are good , you know like crossing out ideas , or like if we had had like a brainstorming period . industrial designer: yeah , we could 've put our brainstorming stuff up there rather than just talking about it , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but with only four people it does n't really make sense . marketing: but i thought we were good orally . project manager: and with and with the powerpoint that we can all look at , like you can do all those things pretty much on powerpoint industrial designer: i think if you had a larger group marketing: get crazy . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: as that 's not as necessary to have . user interface: yeah . marketing: and these might 've made us more willing to like take notes than to like write up them here , project manager: mm . marketing: 'cause we all needed them separately , kind of on the whiteboards in this room . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: because we 're all gon na be working in different places . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: we if we were all gon na stay in here all the time , then having the notes up on the whiteboard would 've been alright , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but everyone needs their own , like specific notes , i guess . project manager: now when you were um creating your um prototypes here , did you work together or did you like do separate projects ? user interface: uh we we worked together , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: um but we were making like we sort of made different shapes and then discussed how the how the buttons might work , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: um and how we could like improve on the on the design . industrial designer: so it was a bit of both really , we just kind of started out by each taking a colour of clay and just fooling around with it and i came up with that rhombus shape project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and he came up with the sort of potatoey , mangoey shape , and then just went from there really . project manager: cool . industrial designer: it was fun . so well done with the management , i felt well managed . project manager: oh thanks . user interface: i think we did well in first of all giving our meetings the time , project manager: it 's kinda fun . user interface: and second we actually we we did a good job of making firm decisions at the ends of the meetings . project manager: mm . user interface: and i marketing: sorry . industrial designer: that happened to me all the time though . user interface: i know what happens sometimes is that you tend to sort of have meetings and then people sorta drift away without anything actually really being decided . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but i think here we got we got clear and and decisive decisive points at the end of the meetings , so that we we knew where to go on from there . industrial designer: yeah , i was quite worried at the end of the last meeting that we were n't getting we did n't really have enough information to make firm decisions , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but we were able to do it regardless , so . i 'm not usually a very decisive person , so it helped to have people say this needs to be done in five minutes . project manager: this is what we 'll do . user interface: yeah . project manager: i found that we did we could have used another five or ten minutes sometimes in the meetings . industrial designer: especially last time , user interface: yeah , for some of the meetings , yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah i think the last time we had a lot of information , but at the same time not quite enough , industrial designer: yeah , project manager: you know what i mean , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: like we we could n't answer every single question . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: um but industrial designer: right . and i i felt the first two meetings , that i was coming in with no information , project manager: mm . industrial designer: and not sort of made me really like , ooh i do n't know , throwing together powerpoint out of no no information and then last time it was like the opposite . i had so much information and so much to talk about . project manager: it was interesting what came out like later , like as i was doing the when i was doing the breakdown on the agenda that they gave me um , that more points came out from your presentation even . industrial designer: yeah . mm . project manager: um . i 'm a little i am a little disappointed that we did n't do a um something for losing the remote , because that was kind of a big point . industrial designer: yeah . that was something like in order to talk about that we would 've had to have actual knowledge about circuit boards and things like project manager: about yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: well the problem was , even when we just were creating from the excel file , there was n't like a option to select to somehow have it included , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so there was no we could be like yeah , it has it included . industrial designer: i think we were project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: there was no way for us to have project manager: considered the re industrial designer: yeah . marketing: written down that it was really there . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think we were just getting overenthusiastic with the task . project manager: well marketing: project manager: it 's interesting that they industrial designer: i think we really got into it , i mean i got into it as the day went on and i got really like , ooh i 'm designing a remote control , i dunno if that 's just me , project manager: mm-hmm , yeah . industrial designer: but project manager: it was interesting though that they put that fifty percent of people say they have frustration with losing their remote and yet they did n't provide us with information to um we were n't provided with information to discuss that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: i know that like people people have like things they can put on their keys that you press it and it 'll beep , but i but i 'm sure that would require some kind of technology industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: that i just do n't know what it is , but industrial designer: i think there are some of those like infomercial remotes that have things so you wo n't lose them . project manager: mm . industrial designer: i dunno . i mean we were talking about it and like i in my household at least , there 's only about two places that the remote is ever project manager: hmm . industrial designer: 'cause there 's only one tv and there 's only like three chairs . marketing: that 's like saying you 're never gon na lose your keys , and i always do , anyway . you 'll lose 'em in your pocket , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: like you just will forget that or you like put it down somewhere that like made sense and then not remember , project manager: mm . marketing: there 's always ways to lose things . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it d yeah , it depends on how organised you are personally , but industrial designer: yeah , or like i guess what the setup of the house is too . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but , i mean i am notorious for losing my keys , project manager: industrial designer: i just i guess i 've just never lost the remote . i put my keys in the refrigerator the other night and could n't find them . user interface: industrial designer: 'cause i was putting groceries away . marketing: that 's funny . project manager: oh . industrial designer: you you 're taking stuff from a bag and putting them in the refrigerator and then go back to my room . project manager: ca n't get in . industrial designer: ca n't get in , look all around the kitchen . definitely in the vegetable drawer . project manager: marketing: that 's funny . industrial designer: so . marketing: i always do that , leaving it in my coat , and then like using a different coat . industrial designer: mm . project manager: yep . industrial designer: but i guess it 's 'cause we do n't carry remotes around that much . marketing: yeah . ca n't really take it into the other room . industrial designer: yeah . maybe with our little robot one we could 've had him have a robot , alien , pear , whatever he is , have a little voice like , i am located marketing: industrial designer: oh a g_p_s_ system , internal g_p_s_ . marketing: user interface: marketing: oh man . here you go . project manager: we should make one that walks by itself . industrial designer: although if it 's sitting still for too long . yes i user interface: marketing: that really could get up and walk away . project manager: or or like some crazy like electro-magnet , that you push it and it 'll go zoom to the tv and stick there . industrial designer: or little or just just a wheel , you know . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: just if you like you 'd have a remote for your remote , that 'll . user interface: yeah . project manager: well , but if you could attach them to the tv , then you can . industrial designer: zoom yeah . hmm . all kinds of possibilities . project manager: mm . okay . sorry , i 'm just um trying to update my minutes . i decided to you know how i sent you the email saying that powerpoint minutes will be complimentary , rather than like repeating them . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: just gon na make i 'm making full minutes , so that it 'll include all of the agenda and all that . industrial designer: oh . project manager: 'cause that seems a little more useful . industrial designer: wow . 'cause you 've had like the most typing and organising to do . project manager: but i did n't have like information to sloth through either , so industrial designer: yeah , i guess how much of your powerpoint was already done for you , every meeting . project manager: most of it , mm-hmm . i added slides , um i added a couple slides each time , industrial designer: oh . project manager: but that was about it . industrial designer: okay . yeah , i did n't even think about adding slides , 'cause i would just get slides with titles on them project manager: mm . industrial designer: and fill them all in w did n't even think about adding more . project manager: well , the thing was they would provide y an agenda with s like several points , but it would n't have a slide for each point . and that 's the only way i remember that i need to go other that point . industrial designer: ah yeah . . project manager: i know personally when i do powerpoint , that 's what i do and so i had it once , even if it was just like the title of it , like the three presentations , and i would do your three . industrial designer: right . marketing: you have you have to have the slogan on it or can it just be like project manager: the slogan on it ? industrial designer: no , no , definitely not . project manager: no no no . marketing: okay good . industrial designer: we marketing: 'cause i was like , it could go around the outside . industrial designer: no , i do n't think we need to user interface: project manager: i think we just need the um the r_r_ , industrial designer: i think the r_ and r_ , especially if the yellow and black one . project manager: yeah . marketing: is it yellow and blue ? industrial designer: or yellow and blue . lem me go to the web page . project manager: yeah , i was just kinda going by the web page , 'cause they did n't give me any clear , like yellow , grey , or . marketing: oh i guess it is black , grey . grey is better than black , does n't look so bumblebeeish . project manager: i do n't really like yellow in general . marketing: hey now i understand the random like newsclippings . project manager: but it industrial designer: finish meeting now . marketing: project manager: was n't it interesting that um i thought it was interesting that our market marketing um expert did not agree with the marketing um marketing: yes . project manager: the marketing choices , industrial designer: user interface: project manager: you know , like industrial designer: marketing: i will project manager: that was a bit of a conflict . marketing: i just feel like if you 're really doing like a a really big market evaluation , you would n't just have like one set of source , industrial designer: marketing: it 's kind of an they were so not backed up , it would just be a sentence like we did a survey , this is what people said . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: s mm , i dunno . project manager: people are stupid . industrial designer: i guess it i it sort of a grey , is n't it ? yellow and grey , but then the slogan 's in blue . marketing: well we got some grey and we got some blue buttons , we 're good . industrial designer: yeah . well we do n't have the right colour clay anyway . project manager: maybe , like i do n't know . that could always be . industrial designer: well we 're not , sadly , going to actually be producing this , so . project manager: oh . marketing: if they ever come out with potato industrial designer: potato mango shaped remotes . marketing: i 'm gon na have to project manager: i 'm claiming it intellectual property . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i ca n't believe a whole day is gone . i do n't feel like it 's been that long . marketing: i know . industrial designer: get sucked in . mm i have n't gotten questionnaire eight yet .

industrial designer thought they were making multiple varieties of button colours which made people confused . so project manager suggested that each unit would only have one colour on each button . to avoid confusion , the group agreed to have up to three colours for the buttons .

what did project manager think of whether they could reduce the buttons when discussing the finance ? </s> project manager: okay um , welcome to our detailed design meeting . i 'm pretty excited . let 's start it 's approximately fifteen forty or something like that . okay um the agenda we 're gon na do an opening and then um i 'll talk about the minutes from the last meeting , what we d discussed um , then we 'll have the prototype presentation and a look at the evaluation criteria . we 'll look at the finances and finally a do a production evaluation and close . so , starting off with the um last the last one , oh i do n't have it here um , but we talked about energy , we 're gon na use a kinetic battery um , we want to use a simple chip , because we 're not gon na need a a shuffle um , we 're gon na need a scroll um , we 're choosing a latex case w in fruity colours that 's curved and um we 're using push buttons uh with a supplement of an on-screen menu . and it sounded like we had set um like eight or nine buttons , including five pre-set channels . okay ? let 's do the look and feel design presentation first . user interface: right , do you wan na start ? industrial designer: right , well we made three different prototypes and i guess we 'll start with with this one . um we have our colours not are not fixed , but this is the general shape . um it 's you hold it sort of either like like this in your left hand or you switch it over and uh it 's easily adaptable to either hand . you can push the buttons with your thumb like a mobile phone , or you can push them with your index finger of your other hand , or even i mean there 's a whole variety , you can hold it like this and press it with your same index finger . uh we have the on off button at the tip , very visible , very big . we have our up and down buttons , which are also gon na be our channel selectors , and we have our little menu button here . if you push if you 're just pushing these normally , they 're the menu buttons , if uh the volume buttons rather . if you press select once , they become channel changing buttons . if we press select three times , the menu with the other features and pro possibly also with your tv channel choices shows up , and you have your five presets down here . um if people wan na grab hold of that , see how it feels in your hand . that 's our number one prototype . um do you wan na present the potato , project manager: like a little lightning in it . industrial designer: or shall i present the martian ? user interface: okay , project manager: the little lightning bolt in it , very cute . user interface: um what we call that one the rhombus , marketing: i could project manager: the v the rhombus rhombus ? user interface: uh the rhombus . industrial designer: that 's the rhombus , yep . user interface: um this one is known as the potato , uh it 's industrial designer: user interface: it 's a marketing: user interface: how can i present it ? it 's an ergonomic shape , so it it fits in your hand nicely . um it 's designed to be used either in your left hand or or in your right hand . um i 've gone here just for just for four buttons on this one . um the two blue buttons here are for adjusting the volume . so you 've got volume up and volume down on the other side here . um the red ones are for uh changing channels , channel up and channel down and that 's um moves between your favourite channels that you 've selected . uh this middle button here brings up the on-screen menu and when you 're working in the on-screen menu you use the other four buttons to navigate around the menu system and the middle button uh to select and that 's basically it , that 's the potato . project manager: um on , off ? user interface: uh that would be one of your channels , basically , project manager: okay . user interface: so like channel zero would be t to switch switch the machine off , project manager: yeah we turn it off . user interface: yeah . marketing: could the middle button of the on-screen menu function as a power button ? user interface: um not really , industrial designer: user interface: it would make it hard to turn the machine off , to turn your tv off . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: if you pressed and held it maybe . user interface: yeah yeah , that that 'd be one way of doing it , yeah . that 'd work , yeah . marketing: if you like held it down , that would be on off . industrial designer: yeah . on off , that 's a possibility , yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and then finally we have um the martian or the pear , either way . um it 's a bit different , just a little bit more of a creative feel . uh you have the on off toggle stem on the top . we have the five preset seeds . project manager: industrial designer: and then you have on the sides to make it a little bit more three-dimensional , you have your channel changing , volume changing buttons and your menu button right here in the middle . so , that 's for your consideration as well , plus it 's an interesting talking point to have standing up . user interface: let 's pass . industrial designer: we figured it could stand up like this on your table , if you wanted it to , if i made the bot the bottom flat . project manager: uh-huh . marketing: sorry , what 's the yellow one in the middle , industrial designer: uh the menu select button . marketing: i forgot . project manager: very interesting . i think that one 's my favourite . industrial designer: user interface: so that 's so that 's our three prototypes . um basically , in terms of making decisions , what we 'd need to do is first of all decide on a form uh which of the three different shapes we want , then decide what kind of button layout we want , how many buttons , and then to choose what colours we want to make the buttons and if we wan na put any text on the device , like label on the buttons or put a brand name or or a logo on it or whatever . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: we were we were thinking that normally we 'd go for fruity colours , but maybe we 're also thinking that your sort of middle aged man , for an example customer , might not want a fruity coloured remote , so m maybe we 'd have one version that 's a bit toned down , project manager: mm 'kay . industrial designer: maybe with with less contrasts on it . yeah , something still a little bright to make it hard to lose , but user interface: would yeah , but we do n't want it to look like a kids ' toy . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: now that was one thing that we brought up over email . i do n't know if you picked up your email , but um the f the um feature that we considered for it not getting lost . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: right . well we were we were talking about that a little bit when we got that email and we think that each of these are so distinctive , that it it 's not just like another piece of technology around your house . it 's gon na be somewhere that it can be seen . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so we 're we 're not thinking that it 's gon na be as critical to have the loss marketing: but if it 's like under covers or like in a couch you still ca n't see it . project manager: it 's really would it be very difficult to um just have an external device that like i dunno , you tape to your to your tv um that when you press it you ha a little light beep goes off ? do you think that would be conceptually possible ? industrial designer: i think user interface: i think it would be difficult technologically , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: because if your if your remote 's lost it 's probably under the settee and in that case you ca n't you ca n't send an infrared sing signal to it to find it , project manager: mm . user interface: s so it 's i 'm not quite sure how it would work project manager: that 's true , mm 'kay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then i wonder if it 's if it 's more just a gimmick then anything else . uh i mean ho how many times do you really , seriously lose your remote control and would would a device like that actually help you to find it ? industrial designer: there might be something that you can do in the circuit board and the chip to make it make a noise or something , but it would take a lot more development than we have this afternoon . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , that 's a fair evaluation . getting lost . um we so we do we 've decided not to worry about that for now . okay 'cause well , the designs are very bright , so you 're right , they 're gon na stick out , but um industrial designer: so d do people have a preference as far as feel and functionality ? um . marketing: i feel like this is simil or it 's sort of what already exists so if we 're trying to think of something sort of like new and fun , even though this is like what you 're init i 'm initially drawn to , just 'cause it 's like comfortable and like not different . i sort of like this one , like i i do n't know why , it just it 's like small but still sort of like cute looking , i dunno . but i also like the b the side buttons on that one , like i think that 's kind of neat . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but i dunno how much any of this has to do with the fashionable , sort of cool looking thing that we also need to focus on . project manager: could we maybe have like an extra button on the top for on off ? so then w we would n't have to have like a dual function ? industrial designer: mm yeah , user interface: yeah , it 's possible , yeah , yeah . marketing: ah , industrial designer: that 's good , that 's good . marketing: there we go . industrial designer: here , stick it on . user interface: put an extra the button on . marketing: project manager: sure . industrial designer: project manager: um uh why do n't we do a product evaluation using your criteria , if you 've developed some ? marketing: well do we w like i think we 're supposed to have one that we do it for . project manager: oh okay . okay . marketing: that was industrial designer: so where marketing: i was a little vague on what exactly i 'm supposed to do , but let me i have to like write something on the whiteboard , so . project manager: okay . do you need this industrial designer: project manager: or just write on the white board ? marketing: no , i actually do n't have like a powerpointy thing , project manager: okay . industrial designer: right . marketing: 'cause i think it would be redundant . industrial designer: okay . marketing: i dunno . project manager: it 's kind of like uh like a joystick kind of thing , industrial designer: ooh . project manager: you know , user interface: cool . project manager: kinda push it . industrial designer: hey . project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: project manager: maybe a little smaller than that . industrial designer: no , i kinda like it . user interface: industrial designer: that 's hard to miss . user interface: it makes look more fruity as well . project manager: oh it does , industrial designer: project manager: it 's kind of like industrial designer: user interface: it 's like a deformed foot , i dunno . project manager: there it could have a stem like that , 'cause i do l kind of like the stem . industrial designer: like user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . it almost helps you ge keep a grip too , 'cause it goes in between fingers . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: interesting . project manager: i like this one . industrial designer: okay , project manager: variety of colours are nice . industrial designer: is that where people are leaning then , the potato ? i like the idea of the project manager: i think i 'm leaning towards the potato . industrial designer: i mean that 's really gotten the simplicity of the buttons down , that one . project manager: mm-hmm . i am worried about like um using a menu . um in that like i withing menus there are submenus , and so how do you get back to the main menu ? industrial designer: hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: well that on the ipod , for example , you just every time you wan na go back you hit the menu button again and it brings you back one level . project manager: but that has a menu button separate from a select button , whereas if this one 's both the menu and the select button ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: good point . user interface: this is , it 's the up and down buttons are used for scrolling up and down for a list of choices . project manager: okay . user interface: you find the choice that you want and you press uh you press the right button uh . project manager: could these be used for going to submenus marketing: user interface: yeah . yeah , so they 're used for going into and out of your submenus , yeah . project manager: or industrial designer: maybe yeah , project manager: okay . industrial designer: maybe it can be one of those , if you press down and hold for two seconds , then it brings you back one level or something . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . well , as long as we have that in mind as we 're designing it still , mm 'kay . marketing: okay , so which one are we sort of roughly looking at to address whether or not it meets our s um necessities , the yellowy one is that industrial designer: the potato ? are we leaning towards the potato ? user interface: potato . project manager: i think so . marketing: okay , well we can obviously change it after we go through each different one . industrial designer: okay . marketing: so basically what we need to do is some of the things that we 've talked about before we need to make sure that that remote actually does conform to the things that we said it was going to . industrial designer: okay . marketing: so what we sort of wan na do is that we each need to separately rank each of the following things and then i 'll tabulate an average just to make sure that it does meet that . industrial designer: okay . marketing: so we 'll just go through them one at a time and we 'll just go around and each of you can tell me on a scale of one to seven with one being really extremely true and seven being not true at all , or false , if the remote that we 've created conforms to the following criteria . so we can do this one first . first we wan na know if it meets the fancy look and feel um objective . so like in my opinion the for now at least , the yellow one is probably somewhere in the middle so i 'm gon na say it 's like a three . that 's just my opinion . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: what does each of you project manager: i i kind of think it 's it 's unique enough that i 'd give it a one or a two . marketing: okay , well give it a number , project manager: okay . marketing: sorry . project manager: i will give it a one . industrial designer: um i dunno if it 's it 's creative . i dunno if fancy is the word i would use . i dunno if any of them are fancy in i 'd say two , because c unique . marketing: okay . user interface: i 'll go for two . marketing: and two , awesome . alright , and same sort of scale for functionality , is it functional ? i think it 's extremely functional , i 'm gon na give it a one . industrial designer: yeah , one . marketing: one ? user interface: i think it 's it 's functional , it 's also pretty basic , so i 'll give it a two . marketing: okay . project manager: um functional . i think it 'll get everything done , i think it might be a little confusing at first , um , i do n't know if that 's gon na be a later one . marketing: okay . well there 's some other ones , i will address that , project manager: okay , then i 'm gon na give it a two . marketing: yeah . awesome , okay . um we wan na know next if it 's technologically innovative . project manager: did you give a functional ? marketing: yeah , she said it was one . project manager: okay . marketing: um is it technologically innovative ? mm . not really , i mean not so much , 'cause we we do n't have the lcd screen , we do n't have fancy chip . other than what it looks like , i dunno if it 's really project manager: well , the kinetic battery . industrial designer: in the battery , that 's it . marketing: i kinetic battery is a big one , so . industrial designer: how many people would notice that , though ? marketing: mm . but it project manager: but they 'll notice it after like a year , marketing: but we know it 's there . project manager: they 'll be like hey , i have never changed the battery . marketing: and if it 's made of like latex , that whole idea , that 's pretty cool . project manager: mm . just the material . marketing: i 'll give it a three . 'cause it we could 've picked a lot of features that would 've made it really industrial designer: yeah . i i would say that it 's yeah , like fancy versus creative it 's it 's different . but does that equal innovative ? i dunno . i 'll give it a three . marketing: alright . everyone else ? user interface: i 'd say it 's technologically it 's not it 's not unique , i mean it 's it 's just it is just pushbuttons um , so i i 'd give it a four . project manager: think i 'm gon na go with the four as well . marketing: mm 'kay . project manager: i really like that kinetic battery though . marketing: next , is it easy to use ? just so you know , easy to learn will be separate , project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: so do n't overlap them . industrial designer: okay . marketing: i think it 's really easy to use . i 'll give it a two . industrial designer: um i 'll give it a one . pretty hard to mess up . user interface: i 'll say one . project manager: uh let 's say two . marketing: alright . um we next wan na see if it has a spongy quality industrial designer: user interface: marketing: and if indeed it 's made of latex or rubber i it 's spongy all the way . industrial designer: project manager: give it a one . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: i wonder if it bounces when you drop it . industrial designer: ooh , that you could n't marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: industrial designer: it 'd be harder to break , project manager: mm . industrial designer: harder to lose . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'cause there would be less impact maybe , . industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah marketing: iain , what do you give it ? user interface: i 'd i 'd give it a one . marketing: alright and the next is , does it integrate some notion of fruits and vegetables ? industrial designer: user interface: uh um . marketing: well , is it gon na be yellow ? industrial designer: it it might be , 'cause that 's our corporate colour , is n't it ? project manager: that 's right , yeah , corporate colour , we did n't keep that in user interface: yeah . project manager: um well industrial designer: we might wan na keep it yellow . project manager: if we i know it would make it a little less c a little more confusing , but if we had all the buttons in black , and a design in and the outside in yellow , that 'd be our corporate one and we could also have alternative colours , one a more conservative one , one that 's more fruity . user interface: marketing: yeah , but if you had like a silvery kind of white or something . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah , project manager: um and can we have like an r_r_ inscribed on the bottom or something ? industrial designer: if we had a yellow sure . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: oh , yeah . project manager: fruity , so fruity . industrial designer: so marketing: alright , so i think it it 's industrial designer: it was inspired by the potato , so i think it 's pretty fruity . marketing: yeah . project manager: i think i it 's kind of mangoey too . marketing: industrial designer: oh , mango user interface: mangoey is better , yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yes . marketing: i industrial designer: that that user interface: i like mangoes . marketing: okay , i 'm giving it a one the mango put me over . project manager: mm . industrial designer: that 's a much more trendy than a potato marketing: what are what 's everyone 's numbers ? industrial designer: one . user interface: uh two . project manager: one . industrial designer: marketing: alright um , and does the design match the appropriate behaviour ? remember earlier we discussed that people do n't use a lot of buttons , that they use the channel flipping and the volume the most . i think we really took that into account a lot , so i 'm gon na give it a one . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , me too . user interface: uh one . marketing: did you say one , rose ? project manager: yes . marketing: okay um , also we talked earlier about r_s_i_ and wanting to prevent um any sort of like carpal tunnely kind of thing . do we think that the latex sort of grip appropriately takes that into account ? i think i 'll give it a two , 'cause i almost feel like no matter what you do , something is gon na happen . project manager: it 's gon na be hard . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah , yeah . project manager: and if it 's repetitive movement it is gon na be only four buttons that you 're constantly pushing , but um marketing: um um worth the risk , i think . project manager: i like how it fits in the hand though so i i 'd go with a two . industrial designer: yeah . i 'll i 'll say two as well . because older people that are n't used to like texting with the thumb might find it a bit at first , project manager: mm . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: but user interface: yeah i 'll i 'll say two . marketing: alright , awesome . and the ease of learning it . i know you were saying that you 're a little bit nervous about that , i dunno . it sort of reminds me of the ipod . i just got mine , i still have n't read the instruction book and i 'm doing okay , so project manager: mm . marketing: and i 'm not good at learning technology . so i 'll give it a two . industrial designer: the menu system and the the fact that multiple buttons are used for different things might be a bit confusing , but i think if it 's one it 's one of those things that it might take you five minutes to figure out , but you 'll have it afterwards . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i 'd i think i 'd give it a two i guess . user interface: i think it it 's probably a little harder then most remotes to learn , because you have to you have to use the menu system and you have to tell it what your favourite channels are industrial designer: oh , good point . user interface: and that could take a bit of learning at first , but marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: once you 've , yeah once you 'd learned how to use it , i think it is a lot easier . so i 'd i 'd give it a four . marketing: okay . project manager: i think i 'd give it a four too . it 's a pretty high learning curve , it 'll be easy once you 've done it , but industrial designer: user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . alright , um also earlier we had something about losing it and so now we 're not addressing that at all , so project manager: we we industrial designer: project manager: i think we can kind of say we addressed it with colour , but marketing: okay , so in terms of not losing it , do you think that on a scale of one to seven , how easy or hard is it to lose ? i 'm gon na i 'm gon na give it a four , 'cause i think that you can still if it 's in between somewhere where you ca n't see it , you 're kind of not gon na find it , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but anywhere else it 's gon na stand out . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: um i 'd say i 'd give it uh a three , i guess it depends on how tidy you are normally . project manager: mm i 'd give it a four . user interface: um i 'll give it a five 'cause i it would be easy to lose something like that , yeah . project manager: small too . marketing: alright , we also said simplicity , how w how well does it address just being simple ? industrial designer: simple to use or simple in design ? do you know ? marketing: i think overall , 'cause we had said before our two main things were simplicity and fashion , industrial designer: marketing: so those are the next two things we 're gon na look at . separate from fancy , like that sort of thing . industrial designer: right . marketing: um it like wants to be simple but it 's not like totally totally simple , so i 'm gon na give it a two . industrial designer: i 'm give it a three i guess . user interface: i 'll give it a two . project manager: three . marketing: alright , and fashionable ? project manager: it 's totally fashionable . i 'd give it a one . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: it 's hot , i mean it 's a mango , come on . project manager: mango . marketing: i mean how fashionable can you make a remote ? i think it 's bringing technology and fashion together real really well . industrial designer: i dunno . user interface: industrial designer: i do n't think it 's quite as fashionable as my robot remote project manager: i do like uh the little martian one . industrial designer: or alien or whatever he was . marketing: yeah , the toggle on off switch , it 's really appealing . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: number . industrial designer: um two . user interface: three . project manager: one . marketing: and does it meet our like demographic need sort of for international appeal , that whole thing ? just that it would se serve our audience . i do n't see why not . project manager: mm-hmm . i think as long if we offer in a in at least three different colour arrangements . um yeah , that 's good . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so i 'll give it a a two . industrial designer: yeah , i 'll say two . marketing: alright , did anyone have any other features that they think were important that we did n't talk about ? project manager: well um we did n't we did n't address the fact that it does need to b have a corporate logo , so let 's let 's make sure we keep that in mind that we ha that one of our colours concepts is corporate and has an r_r_ on it . industrial designer: shall we uh well i think all of them should have an r_r_ . project manager: all of them should have r_r_ , yeah . marketing: and so we 're gon na do that , so it will address it , project manager: mm-hmm . mm 'kay . marketing: fine . okay . project manager: lovely . marketing: that 's me . project manager: okay , now we 're gon na look at finances . um i have an excel sheet that we 're actually gon na calculate the cost um , so let me exit out of this first . okay um industrial designer: oh my . marketing: whoa . project manager: i know . let me one more space . gon na zoom in real quick . okay . hand dynamo . we 're using kinetic battery , industrial designer: uh we 're n using kinetic , yeah . project manager: right ? um and we 're having one per one , okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um electronics . industrial designer: single . project manager: simple . industrial designer: simple , simple rather . marketing: simple . project manager: mm 'kay . um the case . industrial designer: uh uh uh double-curved . user interface: guess it 's double-curved . it is pretty curvy . project manager: it 's very curvy , marketing: yeah . project manager: so okay . industrial designer: yeah i never did get a picture of those so i do n't really know . our case material supplements oops , we just skipped by them . marketing: well do n't we need plastic , and industrial designer: no , we we the plastic is the plastic for the inside is assumed . the supplement is marketing: provided , okay . project manager: the wood ? industrial designer: oh , i guess it was rubber rather than latex . project manager: i mean the rubber . marketing: it was rubber and special colour , right ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm , okay . marketing: do we have more than one special colour ? project manager: yeah , we 're using we 're gon na need at least two special colours . industrial designer: uh well user interface: special colours , is n't it ? project manager: um . industrial designer: i do n't know what the se the basic colour is though . marketing: per project manager: i dunno where it yeah . marketing: well , but we know that we 're having at least three colours , project manager: so let 's y say three . marketing: so industrial designer: well , are we talking about on each colour combination or are we , you know , we 'll like we 'll have yellow and black . is that two special colours ? project manager: yeah , i dunno . that i thi industrial designer: or or is white and black , then two more or project manager: i thought that would be under yours . industrial designer: uh . i guess it 's three , project manager: we 'll just say three . industrial designer: three three . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: right . project manager: maybe the r_r_ will be in colour as well , industrial designer: alright . project manager: so yeah . interface , we 're doing push buttons . and how many buttons do we have ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we have six . user interface: we 've got five . project manager: six . industrial designer: six , with the power . user interface: oh marketing: oh user interface: six . marketing: no , five . project manager: anything else ? industrial designer: yeah . no . oh , we 'll do we wa are the buttons in special colour , special f i did n't get information on project manager: oh , marketing: oh wait . project manager: buttons oh , so um . so the case material will just have one colour , right , industrial designer: well , project manager: but then the buttons will be in special colours ? industrial designer: does it marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but if we 're making multiple varieties of this is where i 'm getting confused . project manager: we 're saying per unit . industrial designer: per unit , okay , okay . marketing: yeah , per unit . project manager: okay , so each unit will only have one colour on their industrial designer: alright , and each button s project manager: but the case is could have up to thr i mean the buttons could ea could be up to three colours , 'cause that how it 's designed there . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: i like it like that . project manager: so industrial designer: yeah , okay . project manager: special form ? they 're all kind of just push button , industrial designer: no , project manager: right ? industrial designer: i think they 're fine . user interface: yeah . project manager: special material ? industrial designer: material , we want them rubber as well probably , yeah . project manager: uh . oh do i have to do it per button , do i ? industrial designer: no , i do n't think so . i think they 're project manager: okay . industrial designer: if they 're all gon na be rubber then it that 's what it matters . marketing: yeah , 'cause it would n't make sense otherwise , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: 'cause for the whole mat case material it 's only one . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it 's i mean it 's two to make it rubber . industrial designer: okay . marketing: oh wait , so maybe . project manager: thirteen point seven . marketing: industrial designer: oh oh . project manager: yeah , what can we reduce ? industrial designer: okay , let 's have our buttons all be one colour . marketing: mm , i kind of like the buttons . project manager: let 's see what that would do . it 's only gon na bring us down to thirteen point three anyway . industrial designer: alright . project manager: okay um , are we sure this is double-curved ? industrial designer: uh . project manager: maybe it 's single-curved , industrial designer: we have no idea . project manager: we have no idea . industrial designer: i dunno , i did n't get any pictures . it 's single curved . marketing: it 's single curved . industrial designer: why not ? project manager: well it 's not the yeah . okay , it 's the kinetic battery that 's kind of expensive , but we have a simple chip , single curve , marketing: project manager: case material is rubber and it 's a special colour , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: but that 's important . six buttons we have to have six buttons . industrial designer: that is important . how did it get more expensive , what did you just change ? project manager: what ? industrial designer: it was it was thirteen and now it 's fifteen . project manager: no , okay , maybe not . i do n't know what just happened . now it 's twelve . marketing: we industrial designer: user interface: what was our target price again ? project manager: twelve point five . industrial designer: twelve point five . hey hey . user interface: twelve point five . so we 're just just about there . project manager: so we 're okay , i think . industrial designer: we 're all set then . project manager: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: ish . project manager: okay , we 're all set . industrial designer: alright . project manager: um save . i saved that to our um our big shared folder , so you know . um okay , back to agenda . um are the are the costs under twelve fifty euro ? yes . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , they are . project manager: let 's move on to the project evaluation . project process . satisfaction with for example the room for creativity , leadership , teamwork , the means , any new ideas found . so i guess what we 're gon na talk about here is just evaluating how we created this project , the information we got on the news , how we used it , if we were able to um , you know , use our creativity with the information , um how how well i guess i led it , um the how well we worked together as a team , um the digital pens , the whiteboard . marketing: project manager: okay . industrial designer: well . i felt very creative . user interface: i think we 've been successful industrial designer: i enjoyed making the prototypes . user interface: in that we 've achieved almost all of the design goals that we 've set industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and we 've come up with a finished project and we just about got cost . industrial designer: i think we could 've done even better with a little bit more information , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like what 's a single-curved case , how many colours , what do colours count project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: things , but given given what we had i think that we did we did really well . um i think we worked together pretty well . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , i mean if i 'd had more market research on the fruits and vegetables , maybe we could 've taken that into account . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: industrial designer: but the fruits and vegetables , they really my creativity , so . project manager: marketing: i know , i really did , the the whole mango idea was great . industrial designer: do you think we could user interface: marketing: no , i mean i thought the pen was a little distracting for me personally , like its heaviness , and like just being so conscious of like turning the pages , i dunno . that was a bit of a distraction . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that was the last one , like i chose not to do a powerpoint 'cause i did n't think it made sense to , so i liked that i had the option to do that and just to take my own notes and that whole sort of thing . project manager: mm-hmm . i think we all made um very significant contributions , user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: i do n't think anybody dominated it , which i thought was really good , like each of us was able to um like each of you had your information and i uh i tried to facilitate it without like taking over , um industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i like our little finished products . industrial designer: can we market this as the mango remote ? marketing: they 're funny . project manager: really cute . user interface: marketing: i kind of want one . user interface: industrial designer: should we have that somewhere on the packaging ? i have a little r_r_ . marketing: i 'm trying to think of a good pun that i could add there . project manager: i know , industrial designer: project manager: let 's think of it like a little jingle . marketing: project manager: um . industrial designer: marketing: i like the r_r_ , that 's gon na be etched in . industrial designer: yes . hopefully not with just my fingernail at some point but um it 's quite a useful little gadget . all thanks to iain for the design of that one . project manager: . okay um industrial designer: mm . what did we find for new ideas ? project manager: new ideas found ? industrial designer: people should really base their remotes on fruits and vegetables . project manager: definitely . or or at least be c p creative enough to think of toggle switches mm user interface: yeah . project manager: etcetera . industrial designer: i i am really into the idea of kinetic batteries now after reading about them . project manager: oh , i 'm so excited . user interface: industrial designer: that was marketing: yeah , i did n't even know they existed . industrial designer: i i knew you can get watches that had them , like really quite expensive watches that just never need a battery , 'cause you 're always moving your wrist . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but in other things , i think it 'd be really good . project manager: i thi yeah , that 's awesome . um okay , closing . are the costs within the budget ? is the project evaluated ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: now there 's the final questionnaire and meeting summary . um so , this is the great product kids , i think we 've created something really interesting and that we have a market for it , um especially if we can produce it at twelve point three industrial designer: yeah . project manager: which we hope um yeah . make sure in your questionnaire to put down criticisms of both the process and the um the final results and . industrial designer: marketing: yeah , real reaction . project manager: i do like the martian remote . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: if we could choose more than one , that would be my second choice . marketing: oh , that would definitely be my second choice . project manager: although the tog toggle user interface: mm . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: i 'm afraid i would user interface: that 's cool . let 's all let 's all go for the yellow marketing: i would break it . i would break it . project manager: it 's cool . i think i would break it . industrial designer: it started because i wanted to have it as st as a stem user interface: break the stem off . industrial designer: and then alright , so marketing: oh that 's funny . industrial designer: is it started as a pear , but then it started looking more and more like a martian project manager: oh industrial designer: when i put the user interface: marketing: kind of looks like a penguin , like with no eye . industrial designer: take me to your leader . project manager: yeah , it 's kind of a penguin . industrial designer: marketing: i like that it stands up . project manager: mm-mm . industrial designer: wow , maybe i should market it to some remote control company now . user interface: industrial designer: so are are project manager: user interface: that was bound to happen. $ marketing: oh , sad . industrial designer: poor little thing . project manager: mm 'kay , congratulations . um . anything else to say ? marketing: nothing will come up until after our meeting 's supposed to be over , project manager: alright . marketing: its all timed . project manager: um anybody have industrial designer: oh . marketing: oh . project manager: i got more master classes , anybody else wan na like take a master 's class ? industrial designer: it 's really funny that you got spam in your work emails . marketing: user interface: project manager: yeah , but check it out . so like there are all these like links , they do n't go anywhere . industrial designer: project manager: but all that you need to keep in mind your knowledge management . um just wan na make sure you do . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: marketing: no the first one that you sent like i did n't realise that it was a joke and i was like why did she send this to us ? project manager: oh industrial designer: marketing: it 's very it 's very work relevant , project manager: it is . marketing: 'cause people send spam a lot . project manager: yes definitely industrial designer: let 's see , project manager: i 'm very sad that i did n't get any links to the corporate website . . marketing: oh here you can you can view . industrial designer: what did i get through the corporate website ? it 's just inspiration about circuit boards . marketing: you can just see what 's up . project manager: wow . marketing: yeah it 's it 's really deep . hold on . takes a little while to get excited to load . that the excel thing is pretty cool . project manager: yes . industrial designer: yeah , that is pretty neat . project manager: i love excel , marketing: here , like , basically project manager: it 's one of my favourite programs . marketing: it 's like inspiration , basically i 'm gon na give you two sentences on fashion and that kind of thing , see . you did n't miss out that much . project manager: i see , mm . industrial designer: yeah , my inspiration from from last time is the in interior of a remote control being taken apart bit by bit , talking about circuit boards . project manager: spongy . industrial designer: i learned a lot actually . user interface: mm . industrial designer: i could probably take apart a remote control now if i really needed to . marketing: oh wow . this one was cooler . i got a whole table and everything . industrial designer: now i have all about circuits and chips and transponders and i wrote it all down , because i thought it would be relevant , like all the different parts of the inside of a remote control , but then they 're like , you do n't actually need this you just need to talk about the case . marketing: that 's like mine it was like , would you prefer an lcd screen or a multifunction remote control ? and then it did n't have like any kind of table , like awesome , i 'm glad they asked that question and did n't report the result . project manager: i i thought it was a little tricky having to hand around this thing . industrial designer: it 's really interesting though . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: we had a lot of the um otherwise the technology today was kinda cool . user interface: i think . yeah . industrial designer: that was really neat how i got emails project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and user interface: we did n't we did n't use the whiteboard that much . project manager: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: although i do n't see how we could have very l at least for me user interface: industrial designer: i yeah . if i 'd gotten pictures of the different parts of the case , the different looks of the case , i would have probably drawn them up , project manager: mm . industrial designer: but marketing: 'cause we were n't like voting on anything and i think usually , like whiteboards are good , you know like crossing out ideas , or like if we had had like a brainstorming period . industrial designer: yeah , we could 've put our brainstorming stuff up there rather than just talking about it , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but with only four people it does n't really make sense . marketing: but i thought we were good orally . project manager: and with and with the powerpoint that we can all look at , like you can do all those things pretty much on powerpoint industrial designer: i think if you had a larger group marketing: get crazy . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: as that 's not as necessary to have . user interface: yeah . marketing: and these might 've made us more willing to like take notes than to like write up them here , project manager: mm . marketing: 'cause we all needed them separately , kind of on the whiteboards in this room . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: because we 're all gon na be working in different places . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: we if we were all gon na stay in here all the time , then having the notes up on the whiteboard would 've been alright , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but everyone needs their own , like specific notes , i guess . project manager: now when you were um creating your um prototypes here , did you work together or did you like do separate projects ? user interface: uh we we worked together , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: um but we were making like we sort of made different shapes and then discussed how the how the buttons might work , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: um and how we could like improve on the on the design . industrial designer: so it was a bit of both really , we just kind of started out by each taking a colour of clay and just fooling around with it and i came up with that rhombus shape project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and he came up with the sort of potatoey , mangoey shape , and then just went from there really . project manager: cool . industrial designer: it was fun . so well done with the management , i felt well managed . project manager: oh thanks . user interface: i think we did well in first of all giving our meetings the time , project manager: it 's kinda fun . user interface: and second we actually we we did a good job of making firm decisions at the ends of the meetings . project manager: mm . user interface: and i marketing: sorry . industrial designer: that happened to me all the time though . user interface: i know what happens sometimes is that you tend to sort of have meetings and then people sorta drift away without anything actually really being decided . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but i think here we got we got clear and and decisive decisive points at the end of the meetings , so that we we knew where to go on from there . industrial designer: yeah , i was quite worried at the end of the last meeting that we were n't getting we did n't really have enough information to make firm decisions , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but we were able to do it regardless , so . i 'm not usually a very decisive person , so it helped to have people say this needs to be done in five minutes . project manager: this is what we 'll do . user interface: yeah . project manager: i found that we did we could have used another five or ten minutes sometimes in the meetings . industrial designer: especially last time , user interface: yeah , for some of the meetings , yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah i think the last time we had a lot of information , but at the same time not quite enough , industrial designer: yeah , project manager: you know what i mean , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: like we we could n't answer every single question . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: um but industrial designer: right . and i i felt the first two meetings , that i was coming in with no information , project manager: mm . industrial designer: and not sort of made me really like , ooh i do n't know , throwing together powerpoint out of no no information and then last time it was like the opposite . i had so much information and so much to talk about . project manager: it was interesting what came out like later , like as i was doing the when i was doing the breakdown on the agenda that they gave me um , that more points came out from your presentation even . industrial designer: yeah . mm . project manager: um . i 'm a little i am a little disappointed that we did n't do a um something for losing the remote , because that was kind of a big point . industrial designer: yeah . that was something like in order to talk about that we would 've had to have actual knowledge about circuit boards and things like project manager: about yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: well the problem was , even when we just were creating from the excel file , there was n't like a option to select to somehow have it included , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so there was no we could be like yeah , it has it included . industrial designer: i think we were project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: there was no way for us to have project manager: considered the re industrial designer: yeah . marketing: written down that it was really there . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think we were just getting overenthusiastic with the task . project manager: well marketing: project manager: it 's interesting that they industrial designer: i think we really got into it , i mean i got into it as the day went on and i got really like , ooh i 'm designing a remote control , i dunno if that 's just me , project manager: mm-hmm , yeah . industrial designer: but project manager: it was interesting though that they put that fifty percent of people say they have frustration with losing their remote and yet they did n't provide us with information to um we were n't provided with information to discuss that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: i know that like people people have like things they can put on their keys that you press it and it 'll beep , but i but i 'm sure that would require some kind of technology industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: that i just do n't know what it is , but industrial designer: i think there are some of those like infomercial remotes that have things so you wo n't lose them . project manager: mm . industrial designer: i dunno . i mean we were talking about it and like i in my household at least , there 's only about two places that the remote is ever project manager: hmm . industrial designer: 'cause there 's only one tv and there 's only like three chairs . marketing: that 's like saying you 're never gon na lose your keys , and i always do , anyway . you 'll lose 'em in your pocket , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: like you just will forget that or you like put it down somewhere that like made sense and then not remember , project manager: mm . marketing: there 's always ways to lose things . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it d yeah , it depends on how organised you are personally , but industrial designer: yeah , or like i guess what the setup of the house is too . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but , i mean i am notorious for losing my keys , project manager: industrial designer: i just i guess i 've just never lost the remote . i put my keys in the refrigerator the other night and could n't find them . user interface: industrial designer: 'cause i was putting groceries away . marketing: that 's funny . project manager: oh . industrial designer: you you 're taking stuff from a bag and putting them in the refrigerator and then go back to my room . project manager: ca n't get in . industrial designer: ca n't get in , look all around the kitchen . definitely in the vegetable drawer . project manager: marketing: that 's funny . industrial designer: so . marketing: i always do that , leaving it in my coat , and then like using a different coat . industrial designer: mm . project manager: yep . industrial designer: but i guess it 's 'cause we do n't carry remotes around that much . marketing: yeah . ca n't really take it into the other room . industrial designer: yeah . maybe with our little robot one we could 've had him have a robot , alien , pear , whatever he is , have a little voice like , i am located marketing: industrial designer: oh a g_p_s_ system , internal g_p_s_ . marketing: user interface: marketing: oh man . here you go . project manager: we should make one that walks by itself . industrial designer: although if it 's sitting still for too long . yes i user interface: marketing: that really could get up and walk away . project manager: or or like some crazy like electro-magnet , that you push it and it 'll go zoom to the tv and stick there . industrial designer: or little or just just a wheel , you know . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: just if you like you 'd have a remote for your remote , that 'll . user interface: yeah . project manager: well , but if you could attach them to the tv , then you can . industrial designer: zoom yeah . hmm . all kinds of possibilities . project manager: mm . okay . sorry , i 'm just um trying to update my minutes . i decided to you know how i sent you the email saying that powerpoint minutes will be complimentary , rather than like repeating them . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: just gon na make i 'm making full minutes , so that it 'll include all of the agenda and all that . industrial designer: oh . project manager: 'cause that seems a little more useful . industrial designer: wow . 'cause you 've had like the most typing and organising to do . project manager: but i did n't have like information to sloth through either , so industrial designer: yeah , i guess how much of your powerpoint was already done for you , every meeting . project manager: most of it , mm-hmm . i added slides , um i added a couple slides each time , industrial designer: oh . project manager: but that was about it . industrial designer: okay . yeah , i did n't even think about adding slides , 'cause i would just get slides with titles on them project manager: mm . industrial designer: and fill them all in w did n't even think about adding more . project manager: well , the thing was they would provide y an agenda with s like several points , but it would n't have a slide for each point . and that 's the only way i remember that i need to go other that point . industrial designer: ah yeah . . project manager: i know personally when i do powerpoint , that 's what i do and so i had it once , even if it was just like the title of it , like the three presentations , and i would do your three . industrial designer: right . marketing: you have you have to have the slogan on it or can it just be like project manager: the slogan on it ? industrial designer: no , no , definitely not . project manager: no no no . marketing: okay good . industrial designer: we marketing: 'cause i was like , it could go around the outside . industrial designer: no , i do n't think we need to user interface: project manager: i think we just need the um the r_r_ , industrial designer: i think the r_ and r_ , especially if the yellow and black one . project manager: yeah . marketing: is it yellow and blue ? industrial designer: or yellow and blue . lem me go to the web page . project manager: yeah , i was just kinda going by the web page , 'cause they did n't give me any clear , like yellow , grey , or . marketing: oh i guess it is black , grey . grey is better than black , does n't look so bumblebeeish . project manager: i do n't really like yellow in general . marketing: hey now i understand the random like newsclippings . project manager: but it industrial designer: finish meeting now . marketing: project manager: was n't it interesting that um i thought it was interesting that our market marketing um expert did not agree with the marketing um marketing: yes . project manager: the marketing choices , industrial designer: user interface: project manager: you know , like industrial designer: marketing: i will project manager: that was a bit of a conflict . marketing: i just feel like if you 're really doing like a a really big market evaluation , you would n't just have like one set of source , industrial designer: marketing: it 's kind of an they were so not backed up , it would just be a sentence like we did a survey , this is what people said . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: s mm , i dunno . project manager: people are stupid . industrial designer: i guess it i it sort of a grey , is n't it ? yellow and grey , but then the slogan 's in blue . marketing: well we got some grey and we got some blue buttons , we 're good . industrial designer: yeah . well we do n't have the right colour clay anyway . project manager: maybe , like i do n't know . that could always be . industrial designer: well we 're not , sadly , going to actually be producing this , so . project manager: oh . marketing: if they ever come out with potato industrial designer: potato mango shaped remotes . marketing: i 'm gon na have to project manager: i 'm claiming it intellectual property . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i ca n't believe a whole day is gone . i do n't feel like it 's been that long . marketing: i know . industrial designer: get sucked in . mm i have n't gotten questionnaire eight yet .

industrial designer suggested having buttons all in one colour and reduced to four . while project manager thought that six buttons were important and suggested having a single-curved and a simple chip to even out the product cost . the group agreed on it and they had a product price reduced to 12 euros .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> industrial designer: project manager: so in last meeting we have discussed the conceptual design and we asked you to prepare a prototype for the for the remote control . user interface: okay . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: so . so let 's see the what did you prepare . user interface: yeah , so can you go out to the shared folder ? mm the shared folder . project manager: sh share folder for th your presentation ? user interface: yes . we have a presentation . project manager: because i have here industrial designer: user interface: uh so i got the participant uh three . w uh . three . it 's the final design , yeah . project manager: okay just one . industrial designer: user interface: s so so i discussed with guillaume . industrial designer: mm . yeah . user interface: right . and uh so we have and we we are both agreed on some two versions of the prototypes , because we were no not decided whether we wanted to have an lcd or not because it 's too expensive . so we come up with two versions . one with and one without lcds . um but both comes with a charger and then detachable and uh or control module . and detachable big buttons for all people um . so . industrial designer: s okay so i 'll show you the the two prototypes . here we have the first one with the beautiful uh lcd um display . you you can s here . and you can uh just um browse into the the navigation menu by uh joystick joystick-like uh button . user interface: mm . industrial designer: you can uh choose the direction and if you just push on it it 's considered like a enter function . user interface: mm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: you have on the mm on the side here the microphone for the for the speech recognition system here . user interface: industrial designer: and here the the switch that control if you want project manager: why you why you you put it in the the side ? industrial designer: well i i i think uh it 's the project manager: it 's not a good place maybe . industrial designer: yeah but user interface: no i i it 's the all around camer uh microphone is n't it . the the microphone picks up the speeches from anywhere . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: is it an only a single mic or a microphone array ? industrial designer: well so it 's a microphone array . user interface: project manager: oh it 's very costly , microphone array . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no user interface: yeah industrial designer: it 's just a single microphone , and you i i think uh we we put it here because i think when you when you are browsing your lcd you will be close to user interface: mm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: well it 's better to to to place it here th than here , for instance . user interface: yeah yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: and here is a little switch that control if you want the the speaker uh recognition system to um to be on or off . and uh so this remote control comes up with its charger . project manager: how much does it cost this one ? industrial designer: well this this prototype is um made for about uh well fi fi fifteen fifteen dollars user interface: for the project manager: fifteen dollars ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: fifteen dollars , project manager: ah it 's above it 's above the budget . industrial designer: but uh well it 's not it 's not uh yeah , but uh it 's just a prototype and if we uh if we optimises the um the uh voila . marketing: the cost would be le reduced . industrial designer: yeah the and the the production costs we we can achieve uh about ten dollars . user interface: mm . hmm . project manager: how many b battery is there ? industrial designer: how many , excuse me ? project manager: battery . industrial designer: well uh f battery , we use uh about uh user interface: is it n the two a_a_s batteries in it . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: a_a_ rechargeable batteries . industrial designer: rechargeable of course , user interface: yeah rechargeable batteries . industrial designer: because we have the charger . user interface: we have the charger so it 's no problem . industrial designer: yeah and you just project manager: so one one battery ? industrial designer: on uh yeah one battery . marketing: is that two or one ? user interface: project manager: it 's kinetic reserve . user interface: actually uh it 's a flexible thing . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: you just n uh marketing: now what is the whole day rating for that ? industrial designer: the excuse me ? marketing: whole day 's rating . user interface: marketing: what type of battery ? industrial designer: oh yeah it 's just a r uh simple battery a rechargeable uh user interface: yeah yeah . industrial designer: if you uh like it 's exist . marketing: something like a two a_ , a_ three size batteries ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so and if you want to charge the battery you just put the remote control like that to plug in the the charger user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and uh leave it uh alone , it 's alright . user interface: mm . at uh yeah . industrial designer: then the next time you pick it , oh project manager: industrial designer: it works . user interface: i forgot to tell you there is only a single button there , b this button industrial designer: yeah just explain the button uh norman . user interface: yeah alright . this button is like the mouse is like a joystick , industrial designer: user interface: you can move in three hundred and sixty degrees of direction so you can make a turn and it the additi functions associated to all the actions you ma you have a click you have a double click all in a single button . project manager: mm . industrial designer: user interface: you can move up , down , left , right , or you can do a swing . so a swing to the left , a swing to the right defines other functions . so even though it 's a single button , but it is pretty s flexible because of the three hundred and sixty degree movement . marketing: and the lcd is this one , on the remote ? user interface: yeah . this is the version y that comes with lcd . industrial designer: yep . marketing: yeah . user interface: here i present another version without the lcd . industrial designer: project manager: i think it 's not a good idea because after maybe one or two months of function is getting destroyed . user interface: mm . project manager: if you user interface: uh okay this is new prototype uh . project manager: industrial designer: yeah it 's project manager: industrial designer: so we have the the second version also with the different uh button configuration . the second version is also simpler , we d uh we had just uh i have to put the microphone also . user interface: yeah yeah . marketing: industrial designer: so basically th it 's the same uh marketing: uh-huh and also the switch . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: basically it 's the same uh things uh uh as uh i presented before . but here we have uh we have uh four buttons for navigation . press one button uh acting as a a enter button . user interface: mm . industrial designer: so um yeah according to what you said it 's more robust to the user . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh it 's also cheaper to produce . we can produce uh such remote control for about uh four dollars . project manager: no four dollars , it 's good . user interface: marketing: and i think you forgot a point here to have an button to find the charger , user interface: oh no marketing: because that 's a major that 's a user interface: th actually th we 'll come to that point in our industrial designer: yeah it 's it 's it 's embed in the uh speech recognition system . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay industrial designer: so marketing: and if you disable speech recognition system then ? user interface: w w i 'll i 'll come to that point later on . industrial designer: so norman will explain to you . marketing: mm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm . project manager: and we will we will serve the charger with this ? user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah yeah of course mm . user interface: th they either these with the uh the the charger any project manager: with the remote control . user interface: in either versions you they they ha they use the same charger yeah . project manager: okay so the price of the charger included in the user interface: uh it 's a standard module so you should get it for a cheap price uh . project manager: industrial designer: thank thank you . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and so mm-hmm . user interface: it 's that same charger that you can use for the hand-phone but uh again depends on the types . i think we have to investigate more on that , but project manager: the price should be below twelve and a half euro . user interface: yeah . yeah project manager: well that 's so user interface: but as the marketing manager says , people is willing to people are willing to pay more for good design . project manager: we have we have just marketing: yeah people are willing to pay more , user interface: industrial designer: marketing: but the company is not willing to invest more at the moment . project manager: the price of selling is twenty five euros . user interface: yeah . yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: and the price of production user interface: industrial designer: alright please uh go on norman with the special features . marketing: or uh user interface: yeah we 'll we 'll come up to that , the the the thing that makes this the controller cheap is that it is modular so you want more function you pay more . if you want less function i i if you want a reasonable price you pay for the functions that you add on to the system , marketing: user interface: so is uh modular . project manager: that 's for this basis function and if you want more you pay more . user interface: yeah yeah , project manager: user interface: for example the lcd , you can take it you can put it put it back in , or you can use the other one , marketing: something like customised . yeah project manager: yeah . user interface: or the speech recogniser with the microphone yeah yeah . industrial designer: user interface: you want a microphone to put in the speech recogniser you do n't wan you pay less for the system you see . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: mm hmm hmm hmm . project manager: user interface: so marketing: hmm okay . user interface: it 's pretty flexible in the yeah price . industrial designer: you also have the the the two other modules for the parental control project manager: but user interface: uh yeah yeah you should present that . industrial designer: that that you ca you can add up to the to your remote control marketing: and this is other one ? user interface: industrial designer: i i if you uh if you want to to have more more power on what you do , and uh which channel you want to choose and so on . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: h here is just the the the module for the kids and th if the parents want to watch tv , up they come up with their modules , marketing: mm hmm hmm hmm . industrial designer: they just plug in it user interface: yeah industrial designer: and they can have all the control they want here . user interface: mm . industrial designer: we also have this module for uh old people with big buttons , clearly labelled , user interface: hmm . industrial designer: and it acts like the previous one , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: you just plug in and it works . user interface: yeah marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: the i the idea the the conceptual idea is that simplicity and powerful . simplicity meaning that we have few buttons , powerful is that all the controls with the one you saw we saw earlier in the meetings with lots of buttons n but here you only have few buttons but you retain the mm the same powerful functionalities . but in addition with simplicity . so that 's the best idea , the cond that that 's our uh an innovation um uh i in this uh design here . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: okay now we come to other important features that i did not tell you . the first one is the speech recogniser , again it 's detachable or add-on . and then we also have security feature for example this here oop industrial designer: user interface: it 's very robust , it does n't break and the material , what 's the material again ? industrial designer: the titanium project manager: titanium . industrial designer: and so it 's very uh user interface: again uh and the battery life is uh is an is an endurable one , again because this is a_a_ batteries you can choose the types of battery you want . marketing: yeah that 's fine . user interface: lithium-ion may be a good one , but you can replace it with cheaper one , again you pay for what you get , and then um y the other p points are robust and misplacement reminder . so when you finish watching your tv and you the you t you turn off the tv , uh and then there 's this message coming out that uh please put that back to the charger , so so that 's the or is it marketing: okay . user interface: that 's the reminder part . yeah and um and it also use a programmable channel and vocabulary , so we did n't define the vocabulary so it 's up to the user to define marketing: mm hmm hmm hmm . user interface: so sorry ? project manager: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: and then uh because of the chil because children are using the device so we have also a a of tv programmes by genre , and this can be used by the adult or by the children . so instead of choosing the channel you are choosing the tv contents of the night . so it 's pretty powerful , and that 's that 's why the num buttons are reduced , because of this feature . yeah . and and for the materials that is cheap to produce i think uh it 's quite clear from yeah . project manager: user interface: and also like the and the fancy designs yeah . project manager: what what 's user interface: maybe we can improve more on the design but project manager: maybe yeah . industrial designer: project manager: what 's the price to p to produce ? user interface: uh this is the industrial designer: well so the price to produce for uh the simplest one , say we start from four dollars to produce such a device . project manager: with with with the charge ? industrial designer: uh it 's about it the without without the charger marketing: with the charger ? project manager: okay . user interface: yeah industrial designer: it 's about uh well two dollars to produce uh the microphone and speech recognition systems . user interface: industrial designer: two dollars for the uh for the add-on modules , and finally three dollars for the charger . so if you uh sum up uh everything wi with the lcd , which costs two dollar , you have two plus four plus four plus two plus two . user interface: yeah . project manager: we do n't have charger . marketing: i think we can use excel . industrial designer: it 's about project manager: we do n't have all the options . industrial designer: so the total cost if you if you want all the fuct functionalities will be about uh fifteen dollars . project manager: charger we do n't have charger here either . user interface: yeah . project manager: no it 's industrial designer: but it 's just if you want all functionalities . project manager: it 's below the the the budget . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: excuse me ? project manager: it 's below the bu the budget . user interface: marketing: yeah it 's a nice input project manager: we marketing: but we have an other inputs from the l public demands . project manager: marketing: i think we will just have a rough look and then we can make our statements , and we can finalise the product based on this discu user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i think we can just go to my presentation then . we can wind up . or we could uh come to some f uh final conclusions . user interface: marketing: so the marketing made an evaluation criteria and these were some of the findings , and uh in the market the people are not really interested with lcd , without lcd , with speech recognition interface , or without speech recognition interface , but most of the people what they are interested is first thing is , they want to have an fancy look and feel , it should be very fancy with colourful and uh very handy to hold . user interface: mm . marketing: and the second thing is it should be much more technologically innovative . user interface: marketing: of course in that we could put lcd or recognition to be more technologically innovative . and the third one is easy to use . user interface: mm . industrial designer: well i think that the technical in innovation is is in the product itself since we have n't yet a remote who are allowing to to choose interactively with the tv screen uh uh with just four buttons . marketing: okay and if we go to the next slide , here you can find these are the latest fashion updates , and so this in paris and milan they have detected this trends that the this year it 's going to be an year of fruit and vegetable , so people are really interested to see if they have an remote in the shape of the fruit or a vegetable , or whatever they like . user interface: spongy spongy . mm mm . marketing: so i think it should be much more customised to make a different uh shapes . user interface: mm mm . marketing: and the second thing is , and if the material , they really do not want it to be very hard , as in the case of very pl plastic or titanium , it should be somewhat spongy . user interface: but the the problem is that uh is it robust to mishandling ? industrial designer: okay . user interface: we have you should find a material that is robust at the same time spongy . industrial designer: a sponge . marketing: yeah so uh so finally we have these three criterias . user interface: spongy . marketing: one is fancy look , second is innovative , and third is easy to use . user interface: marketing: so these are the f uh three criteria on which we are going to build our remote . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so and we have an evaluation criteria for each one of these , industrial designer: hmm . marketing: say that we have a seven point scale , from one to seven , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: and for each of the product you could just give me the scale according to this . user interface: mm . industrial designer: marketing: so now you have with lcd and without lcd , user interface: mm . marketing: so on this scale , if it is true , if it is if it has a fancy look you could just tell me one , or if it is false , it does n't it looks uh it does n't look much fancy , then you could just tell me seven . so user interface: so marketing: we can make our study on this and user interface: so is the e evaluation depending on us or other users ? marketing: no no we have you have designed two products now , project manager: yeah . marketing: one is with lcd and without lcd . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: but who will give the scoring uh we ourself or or a third party ? project manager: you . marketing: according to you , no according to you designers , how will feel does it uh with lcd and without lcd ? user interface: mm . marketing: okay let us make this l_ and without lcd . on on this scale the lcd remote control . how do you look how does it look ? user interface: mm . mm . marketing: d is it very fancy or does n't look much fancy ? industrial designer: well it does n't look much fancy i 'll i 'll say three or four . marketing: and you both agree for that ? project manager: and you ? user interface: i think we can improve on the design . marketing: user interface: som someone um commented this is like a the stone age uh design . industrial designer: yeah . it 's it it project manager: user interface: um we have been focused all all this time on the on the technical aspect , functional aspect , but also the simplicity . industrial designer: technical aspects . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: as for the design maybe we c should hire a designer to help . marketing: so i take three on with lcd ? industrial designer: yeah a three . marketing: so without lcd how would you rate it ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: uh four . i think it 's it 's uh more easy to make f fancy things when it 's not complicated marketing: four . industrial designer: so removing the lcd um gives us a li more liberty to to have a fancy look . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: and in the sense of innovativeness , with lcd . industrial designer: well it 's it 's the same for both so i will give a five , six . user interface: mm . marketing: five with lcd and user interface: industrial designer: well five also uh norman please . user interface: yeah project manager: uh user interface: from the innovation aspect i feel that uh what is most innovative of our prototype compared to the existing prototypes that we saw l in the last meeting is that um the retrieval of tv programmes by content , because uh that is really innovative , and for now and another innovation we have is simplicity and simplicity , few buttons , we 've uh a lot of functionalities . industrial designer: with lot of functionalities . user interface: so that is uh that is uh for both th marketing: so without lcd ? user interface: our gi i think that the our our product is uh has the best in all well this is a biased judgement industrial designer: user interface: because we designed them . marketing: no no according to design aspect we want to know how would you feel the innovativeness ? user interface: yeah . uh the innovation is v is very high i think . project manager: for lcd . marketing: with lcd . user interface: both . marketing: and without lcd ? industrial designer: mm for both it 's the the same innovations . user interface: for both . it 's the same innovation . so maybe i can put six to seven . marketing: okay . industrial designer: six , let 's go for six . project manager: without lcd . user interface: both . marketing: no actually uh to make it with lcd you make more efforts . so i there is high innovativeness included if you make it with lcd y industrial designer: yeah . marketing: then when it is without lcd there is not much innovativeness . user interface: mm . project manager: uh no innovative yeah . user interface: uh uh uh there w there was a there was a issue here is that what are what is the display on the lcd ? marketing: so we ca n't go project manager: industrial designer: talk about user interface: we have n't really uh determined what are actually actually project manager: marketing: i mean that what you are sayin that 's what the design user interface: it 's good to have a lcd but what are we gon na display on a lcd ? industrial designer: marketing: no it 's like this , project manager: marketing: i mean on the lcd , according to what i understand from your model is , you have a joystick here , and you have lcd , you just press your joystick , you get here a programme . project manager: so let 's remove it . user interface: yeah ? yeah . yeah but industrial designer: yeah project manager: but industrial designer: but you have the same programme on the tv screen . marketing: uh then user interface: yes exactly . project manager: this is the problem . marketing: no on the tv you do n't it does n't display on the tv now . industrial designer: if you have the lcd , but if n marketing: lcd ? then uh there is no meaning in having it on the tv . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: or then again you have a channels , volume and all the stuff and what a user interface: but you can not display all on a lcd . marketing: i mean that depends upon your design , so user interface: anyway for for the users who who who opt for lcd we 'll give them the give them the lcd , marketing: i mean user interface: we give what the customer uh wants , right . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: marketing: so without lcd you want to put it fi the same level of innovativeness ? and which do you recommend e easy to use , with lcd or without lcd ? user interface: industrial designer: well i think both are really easy to use because there are few button buttons , user interface: yeah industrial designer: and uh well t p the menu are clear , well-organised , so user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: well with little knowing of the technology you can you can easily use the product user interface: industrial designer: so i will give a six for the easy to use . user interface: yeah i think project manager: no it 's just if i i see the the f the rate i think it 's better to do it without lcd . user interface: sorry . project manager: because that 's with lcd just will increase the price , marketing: yeah . project manager: and i thi i they have the same rate so without lcd it will be user interface: yeah . marketing: or we can just go back to the previous slide uh where we ha we have a few updates . so i mean in the product design you could just amend it to make some few changes user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: according to fruit and vegetable or a spongy touch user interface: yeah . marketing: without lcd and without speech recognition . even then our product is going to be very good . industrial designer: yeah , it 's cheaper to produce . marketing: yeah . user interface: mm . s industrial designer: and uh if the the well if we have less technology we have more liberty to uh for the shape and uh things like that so marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: yeah . i have another thing to say about the easy to use aspect . i think the easy to use uh aspect is different for different people . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: for the young generation easy to use may be very complicated industrial designer: yep . user interface: because uh they w they wants lot of controls with lots of buttons . for kids they want simply the s similarit for the old people they want simplicity , marketing: yeah yeah that 's right . user interface: so that 's why we have the parental module . uh we can ha have build a more complex design if if they want it , but but uh what i 'm trying to say here is that the um we have different sets of buttons for different kinds of people . so in terms of easy to use i think it 's very user customisable . user customisation is very important yeah . yeah industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so industrial designer: six . marketing: so without lcd i just take it five ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: w uh marketing: or you want it to be six ? user interface: i think it 's the same . industrial designer: um six . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes as you say , with better uh project manager: without lcd . marketing: s s oh i think it 's better to have this without lcd . industrial designer: yeah . and to improve the the look . marketing: as our programme manager s pro project manager says that without lcd it is going to reduce the cost also , user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: and it 's going to be much simpler to use . industrial designer: yes and to give us more liberty to have a fancy look so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so let 's go back to our laboratory and user interface: to improve on the design . project manager: what a what what about the sys speech recognition ? marketing: so . project manager: what about the integration of speech recognition ? user interface: huh ? the speech recogniser is a add-on module . right ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that 's going to be an optional . user interface: yeah . marketing: if somebody wants to buy it they can have it , otherwise no . industrial designer: project manager: ah so it 's optional with the okay . marketing: it 's an optional . industrial designer: it 's optional yeah , since well according to this study uh people more likes more to have a spongy uh remote control than project manager: i think it will be i think i user interface: marketing: yeah . project manager: i think it will be better if we have all these modules in the same remote control , because maybe parents will lose these uh marketing: yeah , but i mean if you have an add-ons , the kids may just uh hide the parental module project manager: yeah . or ma yeah . marketing: and so that their parents ca n't use it . project manager: or maybe parents they can for forget where they put it or , industrial designer: project manager: so mayb better if you have all this in the same marketing: in the same set , yeah , project manager: marketing: and and individual buttons to make them work . project manager: yeah . user interface: the problem is if i we are bla if a customer wants a certain component , and does n't want the parental control because it 's a couple who do not have children when you sell the product in the market you could meet any kind of people , and not all people will need all the functionalities we propose to them . so we might lose the customer because of this . i do n't know , project manager: so you mean that even if these modules will be will be functional uh will be optional . user interface: what do you think uh ? yes exa what do you think , i do n't know . you are marketing manag . project manager: uh marketing: i mean how to how to how to make a marketing survey that uh how many married couple or how many couples have a tv user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: or to the number or singles who have a television . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so based on that i think user interface: yeah . but the the question is n does those modularity increase the production cost or decrease the production cost ? project manager: i think it inc increase . industrial designer: well you can if you had uh something li project manager: i think it i increases . industrial designer: oh no , project manager: industrial designer: because if you if you add uh something well yeah maybe because it 's three different pieces uh to to to build but project manager: hmm . marketing: but you can make it on a single p_c_ with three different options . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah user interface: industrial designer: it 's i think it 's cheaper if you if you already built the all the functionalities um on the same module , but uh user interface: mm . mm . yeah . marketing: on the same p_c_b_ user interface: well well the other aspect is that if in the when they have the ar existing product you you gon na maintain the the you 're gon na keep the same customer , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah yeah . user interface: because the same customer will come back to buy other add-ons . marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: so so marketing: i mean you could just provide with an optional . user interface: yeah i i so if do n't do n't buy now they can buy i in the future . so in in that way you 're actually keeping the cus the same customer , attracting them to come back in again and again . industrial designer: marketing: so it 's something like a microsoft product update . project manager: and and we we we we we we do n't want that . industrial designer: user interface: we 're not trying to follow the microsoft and we do n't want to the m project manager: marketing: updates and we sell it . we make updates and sell it . industrial designer: user interface: yeah well if the buyers can be up the th would be can be upgraded , it would be a good thing right ? project manager: industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah , it depends on the v production . marketing: and uh what 's the idea about uh the shape of the remote controls ? industrial designer: well so marketing: uh can they be made into a fruit and vegetable types ? industrial designer: yeah yeah marketing: do you require different types of p_c_b_s and industrial designer: i think we are yeah but we are also the um well the components will have to change because uh we have to deal with the shape and um but i do n't think it will uh increase the cost too much so user interface: mm . marketing: or uh it could be like this the p_c_b_ would be the same for all , but only the exterior uh shape is different o for all . user interface: mm . industrial designer: uh well but it 's a bit complicated to if if if you need machines to different machines to um ah well user interface: yeah . what we can change is to propose the customers with skins . for example the i the mobile phones nowaday , they sell different kinds of skin marketing: yeah , yeah that 's right . user interface: and then people just feel that oh i have a new skin and looks better . industrial designer: yeah yeah we can have the same global shape user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and then uh add on skins and with with this uh tex spongy texture uh things like that . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: yeah . yeah you can pl in what material would that be in uh ? industrial designer: sponge . marketing: i think you need to look into the material . user interface: yeah or furry like a pet dog kind of thing . industrial designer: marketing: yeah yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so industrial designer: so we finished the prototype uh presentation if you have uh something else to say . user interface: marketing: i think the project manager would be interested to look about the financial issues in making these models . project manager: project evaluation project satisfaction , for example . i do n't know , we have to ask these question . we have to give answers so marketing: user interface: i suppose that you this criteria , is it ? project manager: project evaluation . user interface: room for creativity . this room is a bit small , but industrial designer: project manager: user interface: but i think it 's okay for us to work with . marketing: i feel it 's fine , we know we do n't need uh i think it 's okay . user interface: yeah mm . industrial designer: that was good . marketing: this is fine for making a presentat for project presentations . user interface: mm . yeah anyway we have the laboratory nearby to build our modules so it 's okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and the leadership was excellent . project manager: yeah i think so . industrial designer: user interface: good job good job . industrial designer: fine yes uh project manager: he gave you the liberty to talk as you wants . marketing: yeah that 's right . yeah that 's right . project manager: uh the teamwork was very very good . i was really i am very satisfying to work with with you . industrial designer: very democratic . user interface: industrial designer: thank you . marketing: user interface: thank you . project manager: oh . industrial designer: alright . user interface: alright . marketing: and new ideas found . any new ideas to make these presentations more interactive and more interesting ? user interface: mm . industrial designer: come up with new product . project manager: less fancy . marketing: i mean uh what type of product would you think could we make this more interesting ? user interface: mm we i i know something , we need more cakes , more biscuits on the table while we have meetings . industrial designer: yeah and also more well uh more seriously i think it 's it 's a good idea to have uh clear clear points whenever we do a meeting marketing: user interface: mm . industrial designer: uh prior to the meeting to have uh well a list with the points who will be discussed or things like that , but i think it 's alright . we achieved uh project goal i think . marketing: yeah project manager: de marketing: that is within the budget . project manager: user interface: mm . industrial designer: it 's w yes , more or less . marketing: and the evaluation was project manager: without without lcd , without speech recognition , it will be simple . marketing: yeah that 's right . industrial designer: yeah but user interface: industrial designer: alright . so . marketing: and the next is celebration . industrial designer: so uh coffee machine . marketing: so project manager: yeah free free coffee user interface: alright then , we finished ? industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah thank you for your work and marketing: yeah thank you , thank you very much . user interface: thank you very much .

industrial designer and user interface gave a presentation about two versions of the prototype , one with and one without lcd . they both had a speech recognition system , microphone , a few number of buttons , rechargeable batteries and different modules . the prototype with lcd was too expensive , while the other one was quite cheap . marketing made evaluation criteria . the scale included fancy look and feel , innovativeness and easy to use . then marketing asked industrial designer and user interface to give scores towards two versions of the prototype according to the scale . both industrial designer and user interface gave average points to look and feel , high points to innovativeness and to easy to use . at the end of the meeting , group members did project evaluation . they felt good about leadership and teamwork .

summarize the presentation about two versions of the prototype . </s> industrial designer: project manager: so in last meeting we have discussed the conceptual design and we asked you to prepare a prototype for the for the remote control . user interface: okay . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: so . so let 's see the what did you prepare . user interface: yeah , so can you go out to the shared folder ? mm the shared folder . project manager: sh share folder for th your presentation ? user interface: yes . we have a presentation . project manager: because i have here industrial designer: user interface: uh so i got the participant uh three . w uh . three . it 's the final design , yeah . project manager: okay just one . industrial designer: user interface: s so so i discussed with guillaume . industrial designer: mm . yeah . user interface: right . and uh so we have and we we are both agreed on some two versions of the prototypes , because we were no not decided whether we wanted to have an lcd or not because it 's too expensive . so we come up with two versions . one with and one without lcds . um but both comes with a charger and then detachable and uh or control module . and detachable big buttons for all people um . so . industrial designer: s okay so i 'll show you the the two prototypes . here we have the first one with the beautiful uh lcd um display . you you can s here . and you can uh just um browse into the the navigation menu by uh joystick joystick-like uh button . user interface: mm . industrial designer: you can uh choose the direction and if you just push on it it 's considered like a enter function . user interface: mm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: you have on the mm on the side here the microphone for the for the speech recognition system here . user interface: industrial designer: and here the the switch that control if you want project manager: why you why you you put it in the the side ? industrial designer: well i i i think uh it 's the project manager: it 's not a good place maybe . industrial designer: yeah but user interface: no i i it 's the all around camer uh microphone is n't it . the the microphone picks up the speeches from anywhere . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: is it an only a single mic or a microphone array ? industrial designer: well so it 's a microphone array . user interface: project manager: oh it 's very costly , microphone array . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no user interface: yeah industrial designer: it 's just a single microphone , and you i i think uh we we put it here because i think when you when you are browsing your lcd you will be close to user interface: mm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: well it 's better to to to place it here th than here , for instance . user interface: yeah yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: and here is a little switch that control if you want the the speaker uh recognition system to um to be on or off . and uh so this remote control comes up with its charger . project manager: how much does it cost this one ? industrial designer: well this this prototype is um made for about uh well fi fi fifteen fifteen dollars user interface: for the project manager: fifteen dollars ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: fifteen dollars , project manager: ah it 's above it 's above the budget . industrial designer: but uh well it 's not it 's not uh yeah , but uh it 's just a prototype and if we uh if we optimises the um the uh voila . marketing: the cost would be le reduced . industrial designer: yeah the and the the production costs we we can achieve uh about ten dollars . user interface: mm . hmm . project manager: how many b battery is there ? industrial designer: how many , excuse me ? project manager: battery . industrial designer: well uh f battery , we use uh about uh user interface: is it n the two a_a_s batteries in it . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: a_a_ rechargeable batteries . industrial designer: rechargeable of course , user interface: yeah rechargeable batteries . industrial designer: because we have the charger . user interface: we have the charger so it 's no problem . industrial designer: yeah and you just project manager: so one one battery ? industrial designer: on uh yeah one battery . marketing: is that two or one ? user interface: project manager: it 's kinetic reserve . user interface: actually uh it 's a flexible thing . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: you just n uh marketing: now what is the whole day rating for that ? industrial designer: the excuse me ? marketing: whole day 's rating . user interface: marketing: what type of battery ? industrial designer: oh yeah it 's just a r uh simple battery a rechargeable uh user interface: yeah yeah . industrial designer: if you uh like it 's exist . marketing: something like a two a_ , a_ three size batteries ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so and if you want to charge the battery you just put the remote control like that to plug in the the charger user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and uh leave it uh alone , it 's alright . user interface: mm . at uh yeah . industrial designer: then the next time you pick it , oh project manager: industrial designer: it works . user interface: i forgot to tell you there is only a single button there , b this button industrial designer: yeah just explain the button uh norman . user interface: yeah alright . this button is like the mouse is like a joystick , industrial designer: user interface: you can move in three hundred and sixty degrees of direction so you can make a turn and it the additi functions associated to all the actions you ma you have a click you have a double click all in a single button . project manager: mm . industrial designer: user interface: you can move up , down , left , right , or you can do a swing . so a swing to the left , a swing to the right defines other functions . so even though it 's a single button , but it is pretty s flexible because of the three hundred and sixty degree movement . marketing: and the lcd is this one , on the remote ? user interface: yeah . this is the version y that comes with lcd . industrial designer: yep . marketing: yeah . user interface: here i present another version without the lcd . industrial designer: project manager: i think it 's not a good idea because after maybe one or two months of function is getting destroyed . user interface: mm . project manager: if you user interface: uh okay this is new prototype uh . project manager: industrial designer: yeah it 's project manager: industrial designer: so we have the the second version also with the different uh button configuration . the second version is also simpler , we d uh we had just uh i have to put the microphone also . user interface: yeah yeah . marketing: industrial designer: so basically th it 's the same uh marketing: uh-huh and also the switch . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: basically it 's the same uh things uh uh as uh i presented before . but here we have uh we have uh four buttons for navigation . press one button uh acting as a a enter button . user interface: mm . industrial designer: so um yeah according to what you said it 's more robust to the user . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh it 's also cheaper to produce . we can produce uh such remote control for about uh four dollars . project manager: no four dollars , it 's good . user interface: marketing: and i think you forgot a point here to have an button to find the charger , user interface: oh no marketing: because that 's a major that 's a user interface: th actually th we 'll come to that point in our industrial designer: yeah it 's it 's it 's embed in the uh speech recognition system . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay industrial designer: so marketing: and if you disable speech recognition system then ? user interface: w w i 'll i 'll come to that point later on . industrial designer: so norman will explain to you . marketing: mm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm . project manager: and we will we will serve the charger with this ? user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah yeah of course mm . user interface: th they either these with the uh the the charger any project manager: with the remote control . user interface: in either versions you they they ha they use the same charger yeah . project manager: okay so the price of the charger included in the user interface: uh it 's a standard module so you should get it for a cheap price uh . project manager: industrial designer: thank thank you . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and so mm-hmm . user interface: it 's that same charger that you can use for the hand-phone but uh again depends on the types . i think we have to investigate more on that , but project manager: the price should be below twelve and a half euro . user interface: yeah . yeah project manager: well that 's so user interface: but as the marketing manager says , people is willing to people are willing to pay more for good design . project manager: we have we have just marketing: yeah people are willing to pay more , user interface: industrial designer: marketing: but the company is not willing to invest more at the moment . project manager: the price of selling is twenty five euros . user interface: yeah . yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: and the price of production user interface: industrial designer: alright please uh go on norman with the special features . marketing: or uh user interface: yeah we 'll we 'll come up to that , the the the thing that makes this the controller cheap is that it is modular so you want more function you pay more . if you want less function i i if you want a reasonable price you pay for the functions that you add on to the system , marketing: user interface: so is uh modular . project manager: that 's for this basis function and if you want more you pay more . user interface: yeah yeah , project manager: user interface: for example the lcd , you can take it you can put it put it back in , or you can use the other one , marketing: something like customised . yeah project manager: yeah . user interface: or the speech recogniser with the microphone yeah yeah . industrial designer: user interface: you want a microphone to put in the speech recogniser you do n't wan you pay less for the system you see . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: mm hmm hmm hmm . project manager: user interface: so marketing: hmm okay . user interface: it 's pretty flexible in the yeah price . industrial designer: you also have the the the two other modules for the parental control project manager: but user interface: uh yeah yeah you should present that . industrial designer: that that you ca you can add up to the to your remote control marketing: and this is other one ? user interface: industrial designer: i i if you uh if you want to to have more more power on what you do , and uh which channel you want to choose and so on . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: h here is just the the the module for the kids and th if the parents want to watch tv , up they come up with their modules , marketing: mm hmm hmm hmm . industrial designer: they just plug in it user interface: yeah industrial designer: and they can have all the control they want here . user interface: mm . industrial designer: we also have this module for uh old people with big buttons , clearly labelled , user interface: hmm . industrial designer: and it acts like the previous one , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: you just plug in and it works . user interface: yeah marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: the i the idea the the conceptual idea is that simplicity and powerful . simplicity meaning that we have few buttons , powerful is that all the controls with the one you saw we saw earlier in the meetings with lots of buttons n but here you only have few buttons but you retain the mm the same powerful functionalities . but in addition with simplicity . so that 's the best idea , the cond that that 's our uh an innovation um uh i in this uh design here . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: okay now we come to other important features that i did not tell you . the first one is the speech recogniser , again it 's detachable or add-on . and then we also have security feature for example this here oop industrial designer: user interface: it 's very robust , it does n't break and the material , what 's the material again ? industrial designer: the titanium project manager: titanium . industrial designer: and so it 's very uh user interface: again uh and the battery life is uh is an is an endurable one , again because this is a_a_ batteries you can choose the types of battery you want . marketing: yeah that 's fine . user interface: lithium-ion may be a good one , but you can replace it with cheaper one , again you pay for what you get , and then um y the other p points are robust and misplacement reminder . so when you finish watching your tv and you the you t you turn off the tv , uh and then there 's this message coming out that uh please put that back to the charger , so so that 's the or is it marketing: okay . user interface: that 's the reminder part . yeah and um and it also use a programmable channel and vocabulary , so we did n't define the vocabulary so it 's up to the user to define marketing: mm hmm hmm hmm . user interface: so sorry ? project manager: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: and then uh because of the chil because children are using the device so we have also a a of tv programmes by genre , and this can be used by the adult or by the children . so instead of choosing the channel you are choosing the tv contents of the night . so it 's pretty powerful , and that 's that 's why the num buttons are reduced , because of this feature . yeah . and and for the materials that is cheap to produce i think uh it 's quite clear from yeah . project manager: user interface: and also like the and the fancy designs yeah . project manager: what what 's user interface: maybe we can improve more on the design but project manager: maybe yeah . industrial designer: project manager: what 's the price to p to produce ? user interface: uh this is the industrial designer: well so the price to produce for uh the simplest one , say we start from four dollars to produce such a device . project manager: with with with the charge ? industrial designer: uh it 's about it the without without the charger marketing: with the charger ? project manager: okay . user interface: yeah industrial designer: it 's about uh well two dollars to produce uh the microphone and speech recognition systems . user interface: industrial designer: two dollars for the uh for the add-on modules , and finally three dollars for the charger . so if you uh sum up uh everything wi with the lcd , which costs two dollar , you have two plus four plus four plus two plus two . user interface: yeah . project manager: we do n't have charger . marketing: i think we can use excel . industrial designer: it 's about project manager: we do n't have all the options . industrial designer: so the total cost if you if you want all the fuct functionalities will be about uh fifteen dollars . project manager: charger we do n't have charger here either . user interface: yeah . project manager: no it 's industrial designer: but it 's just if you want all functionalities . project manager: it 's below the the the budget . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: excuse me ? project manager: it 's below the bu the budget . user interface: marketing: yeah it 's a nice input project manager: we marketing: but we have an other inputs from the l public demands . project manager: marketing: i think we will just have a rough look and then we can make our statements , and we can finalise the product based on this discu user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i think we can just go to my presentation then . we can wind up . or we could uh come to some f uh final conclusions . user interface: marketing: so the marketing made an evaluation criteria and these were some of the findings , and uh in the market the people are not really interested with lcd , without lcd , with speech recognition interface , or without speech recognition interface , but most of the people what they are interested is first thing is , they want to have an fancy look and feel , it should be very fancy with colourful and uh very handy to hold . user interface: mm . marketing: and the second thing is it should be much more technologically innovative . user interface: marketing: of course in that we could put lcd or recognition to be more technologically innovative . and the third one is easy to use . user interface: mm . industrial designer: well i think that the technical in innovation is is in the product itself since we have n't yet a remote who are allowing to to choose interactively with the tv screen uh uh with just four buttons . marketing: okay and if we go to the next slide , here you can find these are the latest fashion updates , and so this in paris and milan they have detected this trends that the this year it 's going to be an year of fruit and vegetable , so people are really interested to see if they have an remote in the shape of the fruit or a vegetable , or whatever they like . user interface: spongy spongy . mm mm . marketing: so i think it should be much more customised to make a different uh shapes . user interface: mm mm . marketing: and the second thing is , and if the material , they really do not want it to be very hard , as in the case of very pl plastic or titanium , it should be somewhat spongy . user interface: but the the problem is that uh is it robust to mishandling ? industrial designer: okay . user interface: we have you should find a material that is robust at the same time spongy . industrial designer: a sponge . marketing: yeah so uh so finally we have these three criterias . user interface: spongy . marketing: one is fancy look , second is innovative , and third is easy to use . user interface: marketing: so these are the f uh three criteria on which we are going to build our remote . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so and we have an evaluation criteria for each one of these , industrial designer: hmm . marketing: say that we have a seven point scale , from one to seven , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: and for each of the product you could just give me the scale according to this . user interface: mm . industrial designer: marketing: so now you have with lcd and without lcd , user interface: mm . marketing: so on this scale , if it is true , if it is if it has a fancy look you could just tell me one , or if it is false , it does n't it looks uh it does n't look much fancy , then you could just tell me seven . so user interface: so marketing: we can make our study on this and user interface: so is the e evaluation depending on us or other users ? marketing: no no we have you have designed two products now , project manager: yeah . marketing: one is with lcd and without lcd . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: but who will give the scoring uh we ourself or or a third party ? project manager: you . marketing: according to you , no according to you designers , how will feel does it uh with lcd and without lcd ? user interface: mm . marketing: okay let us make this l_ and without lcd . on on this scale the lcd remote control . how do you look how does it look ? user interface: mm . mm . marketing: d is it very fancy or does n't look much fancy ? industrial designer: well it does n't look much fancy i 'll i 'll say three or four . marketing: and you both agree for that ? project manager: and you ? user interface: i think we can improve on the design . marketing: user interface: som someone um commented this is like a the stone age uh design . industrial designer: yeah . it 's it it project manager: user interface: um we have been focused all all this time on the on the technical aspect , functional aspect , but also the simplicity . industrial designer: technical aspects . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: as for the design maybe we c should hire a designer to help . marketing: so i take three on with lcd ? industrial designer: yeah a three . marketing: so without lcd how would you rate it ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: uh four . i think it 's it 's uh more easy to make f fancy things when it 's not complicated marketing: four . industrial designer: so removing the lcd um gives us a li more liberty to to have a fancy look . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: and in the sense of innovativeness , with lcd . industrial designer: well it 's it 's the same for both so i will give a five , six . user interface: mm . marketing: five with lcd and user interface: industrial designer: well five also uh norman please . user interface: yeah project manager: uh user interface: from the innovation aspect i feel that uh what is most innovative of our prototype compared to the existing prototypes that we saw l in the last meeting is that um the retrieval of tv programmes by content , because uh that is really innovative , and for now and another innovation we have is simplicity and simplicity , few buttons , we 've uh a lot of functionalities . industrial designer: with lot of functionalities . user interface: so that is uh that is uh for both th marketing: so without lcd ? user interface: our gi i think that the our our product is uh has the best in all well this is a biased judgement industrial designer: user interface: because we designed them . marketing: no no according to design aspect we want to know how would you feel the innovativeness ? user interface: yeah . uh the innovation is v is very high i think . project manager: for lcd . marketing: with lcd . user interface: both . marketing: and without lcd ? industrial designer: mm for both it 's the the same innovations . user interface: for both . it 's the same innovation . so maybe i can put six to seven . marketing: okay . industrial designer: six , let 's go for six . project manager: without lcd . user interface: both . marketing: no actually uh to make it with lcd you make more efforts . so i there is high innovativeness included if you make it with lcd y industrial designer: yeah . marketing: then when it is without lcd there is not much innovativeness . user interface: mm . project manager: uh no innovative yeah . user interface: uh uh uh there w there was a there was a issue here is that what are what is the display on the lcd ? marketing: so we ca n't go project manager: industrial designer: talk about user interface: we have n't really uh determined what are actually actually project manager: marketing: i mean that what you are sayin that 's what the design user interface: it 's good to have a lcd but what are we gon na display on a lcd ? industrial designer: marketing: no it 's like this , project manager: marketing: i mean on the lcd , according to what i understand from your model is , you have a joystick here , and you have lcd , you just press your joystick , you get here a programme . project manager: so let 's remove it . user interface: yeah ? yeah . yeah but industrial designer: yeah project manager: but industrial designer: but you have the same programme on the tv screen . marketing: uh then user interface: yes exactly . project manager: this is the problem . marketing: no on the tv you do n't it does n't display on the tv now . industrial designer: if you have the lcd , but if n marketing: lcd ? then uh there is no meaning in having it on the tv . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: or then again you have a channels , volume and all the stuff and what a user interface: but you can not display all on a lcd . marketing: i mean that depends upon your design , so user interface: anyway for for the users who who who opt for lcd we 'll give them the give them the lcd , marketing: i mean user interface: we give what the customer uh wants , right . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: marketing: so without lcd you want to put it fi the same level of innovativeness ? and which do you recommend e easy to use , with lcd or without lcd ? user interface: industrial designer: well i think both are really easy to use because there are few button buttons , user interface: yeah industrial designer: and uh well t p the menu are clear , well-organised , so user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: well with little knowing of the technology you can you can easily use the product user interface: industrial designer: so i will give a six for the easy to use . user interface: yeah i think project manager: no it 's just if i i see the the f the rate i think it 's better to do it without lcd . user interface: sorry . project manager: because that 's with lcd just will increase the price , marketing: yeah . project manager: and i thi i they have the same rate so without lcd it will be user interface: yeah . marketing: or we can just go back to the previous slide uh where we ha we have a few updates . so i mean in the product design you could just amend it to make some few changes user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: according to fruit and vegetable or a spongy touch user interface: yeah . marketing: without lcd and without speech recognition . even then our product is going to be very good . industrial designer: yeah , it 's cheaper to produce . marketing: yeah . user interface: mm . s industrial designer: and uh if the the well if we have less technology we have more liberty to uh for the shape and uh things like that so marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: yeah . i have another thing to say about the easy to use aspect . i think the easy to use uh aspect is different for different people . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: for the young generation easy to use may be very complicated industrial designer: yep . user interface: because uh they w they wants lot of controls with lots of buttons . for kids they want simply the s similarit for the old people they want simplicity , marketing: yeah yeah that 's right . user interface: so that 's why we have the parental module . uh we can ha have build a more complex design if if they want it , but but uh what i 'm trying to say here is that the um we have different sets of buttons for different kinds of people . so in terms of easy to use i think it 's very user customisable . user customisation is very important yeah . yeah industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so industrial designer: six . marketing: so without lcd i just take it five ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: w uh marketing: or you want it to be six ? user interface: i think it 's the same . industrial designer: um six . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes as you say , with better uh project manager: without lcd . marketing: s s oh i think it 's better to have this without lcd . industrial designer: yeah . and to improve the the look . marketing: as our programme manager s pro project manager says that without lcd it is going to reduce the cost also , user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: and it 's going to be much simpler to use . industrial designer: yes and to give us more liberty to have a fancy look so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so let 's go back to our laboratory and user interface: to improve on the design . project manager: what a what what about the sys speech recognition ? marketing: so . project manager: what about the integration of speech recognition ? user interface: huh ? the speech recogniser is a add-on module . right ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that 's going to be an optional . user interface: yeah . marketing: if somebody wants to buy it they can have it , otherwise no . industrial designer: project manager: ah so it 's optional with the okay . marketing: it 's an optional . industrial designer: it 's optional yeah , since well according to this study uh people more likes more to have a spongy uh remote control than project manager: i think it will be i think i user interface: marketing: yeah . project manager: i think it will be better if we have all these modules in the same remote control , because maybe parents will lose these uh marketing: yeah , but i mean if you have an add-ons , the kids may just uh hide the parental module project manager: yeah . or ma yeah . marketing: and so that their parents ca n't use it . project manager: or maybe parents they can for forget where they put it or , industrial designer: project manager: so mayb better if you have all this in the same marketing: in the same set , yeah , project manager: marketing: and and individual buttons to make them work . project manager: yeah . user interface: the problem is if i we are bla if a customer wants a certain component , and does n't want the parental control because it 's a couple who do not have children when you sell the product in the market you could meet any kind of people , and not all people will need all the functionalities we propose to them . so we might lose the customer because of this . i do n't know , project manager: so you mean that even if these modules will be will be functional uh will be optional . user interface: what do you think uh ? yes exa what do you think , i do n't know . you are marketing manag . project manager: uh marketing: i mean how to how to how to make a marketing survey that uh how many married couple or how many couples have a tv user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: or to the number or singles who have a television . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so based on that i think user interface: yeah . but the the question is n does those modularity increase the production cost or decrease the production cost ? project manager: i think it inc increase . industrial designer: well you can if you had uh something li project manager: i think it i increases . industrial designer: oh no , project manager: industrial designer: because if you if you add uh something well yeah maybe because it 's three different pieces uh to to to build but project manager: hmm . marketing: but you can make it on a single p_c_ with three different options . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah user interface: industrial designer: it 's i think it 's cheaper if you if you already built the all the functionalities um on the same module , but uh user interface: mm . mm . yeah . marketing: on the same p_c_b_ user interface: well well the other aspect is that if in the when they have the ar existing product you you gon na maintain the the you 're gon na keep the same customer , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah yeah . user interface: because the same customer will come back to buy other add-ons . marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: so so marketing: i mean you could just provide with an optional . user interface: yeah i i so if do n't do n't buy now they can buy i in the future . so in in that way you 're actually keeping the cus the same customer , attracting them to come back in again and again . industrial designer: marketing: so it 's something like a microsoft product update . project manager: and and we we we we we we do n't want that . industrial designer: user interface: we 're not trying to follow the microsoft and we do n't want to the m project manager: marketing: updates and we sell it . we make updates and sell it . industrial designer: user interface: yeah well if the buyers can be up the th would be can be upgraded , it would be a good thing right ? project manager: industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah , it depends on the v production . marketing: and uh what 's the idea about uh the shape of the remote controls ? industrial designer: well so marketing: uh can they be made into a fruit and vegetable types ? industrial designer: yeah yeah marketing: do you require different types of p_c_b_s and industrial designer: i think we are yeah but we are also the um well the components will have to change because uh we have to deal with the shape and um but i do n't think it will uh increase the cost too much so user interface: mm . marketing: or uh it could be like this the p_c_b_ would be the same for all , but only the exterior uh shape is different o for all . user interface: mm . industrial designer: uh well but it 's a bit complicated to if if if you need machines to different machines to um ah well user interface: yeah . what we can change is to propose the customers with skins . for example the i the mobile phones nowaday , they sell different kinds of skin marketing: yeah , yeah that 's right . user interface: and then people just feel that oh i have a new skin and looks better . industrial designer: yeah yeah we can have the same global shape user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and then uh add on skins and with with this uh tex spongy texture uh things like that . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: yeah . yeah you can pl in what material would that be in uh ? industrial designer: sponge . marketing: i think you need to look into the material . user interface: yeah or furry like a pet dog kind of thing . industrial designer: marketing: yeah yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so industrial designer: so we finished the prototype uh presentation if you have uh something else to say . user interface: marketing: i think the project manager would be interested to look about the financial issues in making these models . project manager: project evaluation project satisfaction , for example . i do n't know , we have to ask these question . we have to give answers so marketing: user interface: i suppose that you this criteria , is it ? project manager: project evaluation . user interface: room for creativity . this room is a bit small , but industrial designer: project manager: user interface: but i think it 's okay for us to work with . marketing: i feel it 's fine , we know we do n't need uh i think it 's okay . user interface: yeah mm . industrial designer: that was good . marketing: this is fine for making a presentat for project presentations . user interface: mm . yeah anyway we have the laboratory nearby to build our modules so it 's okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and the leadership was excellent . project manager: yeah i think so . industrial designer: user interface: good job good job . industrial designer: fine yes uh project manager: he gave you the liberty to talk as you wants . marketing: yeah that 's right . yeah that 's right . project manager: uh the teamwork was very very good . i was really i am very satisfying to work with with you . industrial designer: very democratic . user interface: industrial designer: thank you . marketing: user interface: thank you . project manager: oh . industrial designer: alright . user interface: alright . marketing: and new ideas found . any new ideas to make these presentations more interactive and more interesting ? user interface: mm . industrial designer: come up with new product . project manager: less fancy . marketing: i mean uh what type of product would you think could we make this more interesting ? user interface: mm we i i know something , we need more cakes , more biscuits on the table while we have meetings . industrial designer: yeah and also more well uh more seriously i think it 's it 's a good idea to have uh clear clear points whenever we do a meeting marketing: user interface: mm . industrial designer: uh prior to the meeting to have uh well a list with the points who will be discussed or things like that , but i think it 's alright . we achieved uh project goal i think . marketing: yeah project manager: de marketing: that is within the budget . project manager: user interface: mm . industrial designer: it 's w yes , more or less . marketing: and the evaluation was project manager: without without lcd , without speech recognition , it will be simple . marketing: yeah that 's right . industrial designer: yeah but user interface: industrial designer: alright . so . marketing: and the next is celebration . industrial designer: so uh coffee machine . marketing: so project manager: yeah free free coffee user interface: alright then , we finished ? industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah thank you for your work and marketing: yeah thank you , thank you very much . user interface: thank you very much .

industrial designer and user interface gave a presentation about two versions of the prototype , one with and one without lcd . as for the one with lcd , users could choose the direction and if they pushed on it , it 's considered like an enter function . there was also a button which was like a mouse . this prototype had microphone arrays for the speech recognition system and switch for controlling . the remote control needed rechargeable batteries , but the type and the number of batteries were not sure . this prototype cost fifteen dollars and it was high above the budget . the second prototype was basically the same as the first one . however , it used buttons to navigate and enter . this one cost four dollars . the remote control had different modules for different groups of people . the set might use a material like titanium or lithium . user interface said that features which cost much could be optional so the price could be flexible . project manager said that the cost of the whole second plan was below the budget .

what did industrial designer put the microphone and the switch on the side of the set when discussing two versions of the prototype ? </s> industrial designer: project manager: so in last meeting we have discussed the conceptual design and we asked you to prepare a prototype for the for the remote control . user interface: okay . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: so . so let 's see the what did you prepare . user interface: yeah , so can you go out to the shared folder ? mm the shared folder . project manager: sh share folder for th your presentation ? user interface: yes . we have a presentation . project manager: because i have here industrial designer: user interface: uh so i got the participant uh three . w uh . three . it 's the final design , yeah . project manager: okay just one . industrial designer: user interface: s so so i discussed with guillaume . industrial designer: mm . yeah . user interface: right . and uh so we have and we we are both agreed on some two versions of the prototypes , because we were no not decided whether we wanted to have an lcd or not because it 's too expensive . so we come up with two versions . one with and one without lcds . um but both comes with a charger and then detachable and uh or control module . and detachable big buttons for all people um . so . industrial designer: s okay so i 'll show you the the two prototypes . here we have the first one with the beautiful uh lcd um display . you you can s here . and you can uh just um browse into the the navigation menu by uh joystick joystick-like uh button . user interface: mm . industrial designer: you can uh choose the direction and if you just push on it it 's considered like a enter function . user interface: mm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: you have on the mm on the side here the microphone for the for the speech recognition system here . user interface: industrial designer: and here the the switch that control if you want project manager: why you why you you put it in the the side ? industrial designer: well i i i think uh it 's the project manager: it 's not a good place maybe . industrial designer: yeah but user interface: no i i it 's the all around camer uh microphone is n't it . the the microphone picks up the speeches from anywhere . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: is it an only a single mic or a microphone array ? industrial designer: well so it 's a microphone array . user interface: project manager: oh it 's very costly , microphone array . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no user interface: yeah industrial designer: it 's just a single microphone , and you i i think uh we we put it here because i think when you when you are browsing your lcd you will be close to user interface: mm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: well it 's better to to to place it here th than here , for instance . user interface: yeah yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: and here is a little switch that control if you want the the speaker uh recognition system to um to be on or off . and uh so this remote control comes up with its charger . project manager: how much does it cost this one ? industrial designer: well this this prototype is um made for about uh well fi fi fifteen fifteen dollars user interface: for the project manager: fifteen dollars ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: fifteen dollars , project manager: ah it 's above it 's above the budget . industrial designer: but uh well it 's not it 's not uh yeah , but uh it 's just a prototype and if we uh if we optimises the um the uh voila . marketing: the cost would be le reduced . industrial designer: yeah the and the the production costs we we can achieve uh about ten dollars . user interface: mm . hmm . project manager: how many b battery is there ? industrial designer: how many , excuse me ? project manager: battery . industrial designer: well uh f battery , we use uh about uh user interface: is it n the two a_a_s batteries in it . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: a_a_ rechargeable batteries . industrial designer: rechargeable of course , user interface: yeah rechargeable batteries . industrial designer: because we have the charger . user interface: we have the charger so it 's no problem . industrial designer: yeah and you just project manager: so one one battery ? industrial designer: on uh yeah one battery . marketing: is that two or one ? user interface: project manager: it 's kinetic reserve . user interface: actually uh it 's a flexible thing . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: you just n uh marketing: now what is the whole day rating for that ? industrial designer: the excuse me ? marketing: whole day 's rating . user interface: marketing: what type of battery ? industrial designer: oh yeah it 's just a r uh simple battery a rechargeable uh user interface: yeah yeah . industrial designer: if you uh like it 's exist . marketing: something like a two a_ , a_ three size batteries ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so and if you want to charge the battery you just put the remote control like that to plug in the the charger user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and uh leave it uh alone , it 's alright . user interface: mm . at uh yeah . industrial designer: then the next time you pick it , oh project manager: industrial designer: it works . user interface: i forgot to tell you there is only a single button there , b this button industrial designer: yeah just explain the button uh norman . user interface: yeah alright . this button is like the mouse is like a joystick , industrial designer: user interface: you can move in three hundred and sixty degrees of direction so you can make a turn and it the additi functions associated to all the actions you ma you have a click you have a double click all in a single button . project manager: mm . industrial designer: user interface: you can move up , down , left , right , or you can do a swing . so a swing to the left , a swing to the right defines other functions . so even though it 's a single button , but it is pretty s flexible because of the three hundred and sixty degree movement . marketing: and the lcd is this one , on the remote ? user interface: yeah . this is the version y that comes with lcd . industrial designer: yep . marketing: yeah . user interface: here i present another version without the lcd . industrial designer: project manager: i think it 's not a good idea because after maybe one or two months of function is getting destroyed . user interface: mm . project manager: if you user interface: uh okay this is new prototype uh . project manager: industrial designer: yeah it 's project manager: industrial designer: so we have the the second version also with the different uh button configuration . the second version is also simpler , we d uh we had just uh i have to put the microphone also . user interface: yeah yeah . marketing: industrial designer: so basically th it 's the same uh marketing: uh-huh and also the switch . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: basically it 's the same uh things uh uh as uh i presented before . but here we have uh we have uh four buttons for navigation . press one button uh acting as a a enter button . user interface: mm . industrial designer: so um yeah according to what you said it 's more robust to the user . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh it 's also cheaper to produce . we can produce uh such remote control for about uh four dollars . project manager: no four dollars , it 's good . user interface: marketing: and i think you forgot a point here to have an button to find the charger , user interface: oh no marketing: because that 's a major that 's a user interface: th actually th we 'll come to that point in our industrial designer: yeah it 's it 's it 's embed in the uh speech recognition system . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay industrial designer: so marketing: and if you disable speech recognition system then ? user interface: w w i 'll i 'll come to that point later on . industrial designer: so norman will explain to you . marketing: mm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm . project manager: and we will we will serve the charger with this ? user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah yeah of course mm . user interface: th they either these with the uh the the charger any project manager: with the remote control . user interface: in either versions you they they ha they use the same charger yeah . project manager: okay so the price of the charger included in the user interface: uh it 's a standard module so you should get it for a cheap price uh . project manager: industrial designer: thank thank you . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and so mm-hmm . user interface: it 's that same charger that you can use for the hand-phone but uh again depends on the types . i think we have to investigate more on that , but project manager: the price should be below twelve and a half euro . user interface: yeah . yeah project manager: well that 's so user interface: but as the marketing manager says , people is willing to people are willing to pay more for good design . project manager: we have we have just marketing: yeah people are willing to pay more , user interface: industrial designer: marketing: but the company is not willing to invest more at the moment . project manager: the price of selling is twenty five euros . user interface: yeah . yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: and the price of production user interface: industrial designer: alright please uh go on norman with the special features . marketing: or uh user interface: yeah we 'll we 'll come up to that , the the the thing that makes this the controller cheap is that it is modular so you want more function you pay more . if you want less function i i if you want a reasonable price you pay for the functions that you add on to the system , marketing: user interface: so is uh modular . project manager: that 's for this basis function and if you want more you pay more . user interface: yeah yeah , project manager: user interface: for example the lcd , you can take it you can put it put it back in , or you can use the other one , marketing: something like customised . yeah project manager: yeah . user interface: or the speech recogniser with the microphone yeah yeah . industrial designer: user interface: you want a microphone to put in the speech recogniser you do n't wan you pay less for the system you see . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: mm hmm hmm hmm . project manager: user interface: so marketing: hmm okay . user interface: it 's pretty flexible in the yeah price . industrial designer: you also have the the the two other modules for the parental control project manager: but user interface: uh yeah yeah you should present that . industrial designer: that that you ca you can add up to the to your remote control marketing: and this is other one ? user interface: industrial designer: i i if you uh if you want to to have more more power on what you do , and uh which channel you want to choose and so on . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: h here is just the the the module for the kids and th if the parents want to watch tv , up they come up with their modules , marketing: mm hmm hmm hmm . industrial designer: they just plug in it user interface: yeah industrial designer: and they can have all the control they want here . user interface: mm . industrial designer: we also have this module for uh old people with big buttons , clearly labelled , user interface: hmm . industrial designer: and it acts like the previous one , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: you just plug in and it works . user interface: yeah marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: the i the idea the the conceptual idea is that simplicity and powerful . simplicity meaning that we have few buttons , powerful is that all the controls with the one you saw we saw earlier in the meetings with lots of buttons n but here you only have few buttons but you retain the mm the same powerful functionalities . but in addition with simplicity . so that 's the best idea , the cond that that 's our uh an innovation um uh i in this uh design here . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: okay now we come to other important features that i did not tell you . the first one is the speech recogniser , again it 's detachable or add-on . and then we also have security feature for example this here oop industrial designer: user interface: it 's very robust , it does n't break and the material , what 's the material again ? industrial designer: the titanium project manager: titanium . industrial designer: and so it 's very uh user interface: again uh and the battery life is uh is an is an endurable one , again because this is a_a_ batteries you can choose the types of battery you want . marketing: yeah that 's fine . user interface: lithium-ion may be a good one , but you can replace it with cheaper one , again you pay for what you get , and then um y the other p points are robust and misplacement reminder . so when you finish watching your tv and you the you t you turn off the tv , uh and then there 's this message coming out that uh please put that back to the charger , so so that 's the or is it marketing: okay . user interface: that 's the reminder part . yeah and um and it also use a programmable channel and vocabulary , so we did n't define the vocabulary so it 's up to the user to define marketing: mm hmm hmm hmm . user interface: so sorry ? project manager: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: and then uh because of the chil because children are using the device so we have also a a of tv programmes by genre , and this can be used by the adult or by the children . so instead of choosing the channel you are choosing the tv contents of the night . so it 's pretty powerful , and that 's that 's why the num buttons are reduced , because of this feature . yeah . and and for the materials that is cheap to produce i think uh it 's quite clear from yeah . project manager: user interface: and also like the and the fancy designs yeah . project manager: what what 's user interface: maybe we can improve more on the design but project manager: maybe yeah . industrial designer: project manager: what 's the price to p to produce ? user interface: uh this is the industrial designer: well so the price to produce for uh the simplest one , say we start from four dollars to produce such a device . project manager: with with with the charge ? industrial designer: uh it 's about it the without without the charger marketing: with the charger ? project manager: okay . user interface: yeah industrial designer: it 's about uh well two dollars to produce uh the microphone and speech recognition systems . user interface: industrial designer: two dollars for the uh for the add-on modules , and finally three dollars for the charger . so if you uh sum up uh everything wi with the lcd , which costs two dollar , you have two plus four plus four plus two plus two . user interface: yeah . project manager: we do n't have charger . marketing: i think we can use excel . industrial designer: it 's about project manager: we do n't have all the options . industrial designer: so the total cost if you if you want all the fuct functionalities will be about uh fifteen dollars . project manager: charger we do n't have charger here either . user interface: yeah . project manager: no it 's industrial designer: but it 's just if you want all functionalities . project manager: it 's below the the the budget . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: excuse me ? project manager: it 's below the bu the budget . user interface: marketing: yeah it 's a nice input project manager: we marketing: but we have an other inputs from the l public demands . project manager: marketing: i think we will just have a rough look and then we can make our statements , and we can finalise the product based on this discu user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i think we can just go to my presentation then . we can wind up . or we could uh come to some f uh final conclusions . user interface: marketing: so the marketing made an evaluation criteria and these were some of the findings , and uh in the market the people are not really interested with lcd , without lcd , with speech recognition interface , or without speech recognition interface , but most of the people what they are interested is first thing is , they want to have an fancy look and feel , it should be very fancy with colourful and uh very handy to hold . user interface: mm . marketing: and the second thing is it should be much more technologically innovative . user interface: marketing: of course in that we could put lcd or recognition to be more technologically innovative . and the third one is easy to use . user interface: mm . industrial designer: well i think that the technical in innovation is is in the product itself since we have n't yet a remote who are allowing to to choose interactively with the tv screen uh uh with just four buttons . marketing: okay and if we go to the next slide , here you can find these are the latest fashion updates , and so this in paris and milan they have detected this trends that the this year it 's going to be an year of fruit and vegetable , so people are really interested to see if they have an remote in the shape of the fruit or a vegetable , or whatever they like . user interface: spongy spongy . mm mm . marketing: so i think it should be much more customised to make a different uh shapes . user interface: mm mm . marketing: and the second thing is , and if the material , they really do not want it to be very hard , as in the case of very pl plastic or titanium , it should be somewhat spongy . user interface: but the the problem is that uh is it robust to mishandling ? industrial designer: okay . user interface: we have you should find a material that is robust at the same time spongy . industrial designer: a sponge . marketing: yeah so uh so finally we have these three criterias . user interface: spongy . marketing: one is fancy look , second is innovative , and third is easy to use . user interface: marketing: so these are the f uh three criteria on which we are going to build our remote . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so and we have an evaluation criteria for each one of these , industrial designer: hmm . marketing: say that we have a seven point scale , from one to seven , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: and for each of the product you could just give me the scale according to this . user interface: mm . industrial designer: marketing: so now you have with lcd and without lcd , user interface: mm . marketing: so on this scale , if it is true , if it is if it has a fancy look you could just tell me one , or if it is false , it does n't it looks uh it does n't look much fancy , then you could just tell me seven . so user interface: so marketing: we can make our study on this and user interface: so is the e evaluation depending on us or other users ? marketing: no no we have you have designed two products now , project manager: yeah . marketing: one is with lcd and without lcd . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: but who will give the scoring uh we ourself or or a third party ? project manager: you . marketing: according to you , no according to you designers , how will feel does it uh with lcd and without lcd ? user interface: mm . marketing: okay let us make this l_ and without lcd . on on this scale the lcd remote control . how do you look how does it look ? user interface: mm . mm . marketing: d is it very fancy or does n't look much fancy ? industrial designer: well it does n't look much fancy i 'll i 'll say three or four . marketing: and you both agree for that ? project manager: and you ? user interface: i think we can improve on the design . marketing: user interface: som someone um commented this is like a the stone age uh design . industrial designer: yeah . it 's it it project manager: user interface: um we have been focused all all this time on the on the technical aspect , functional aspect , but also the simplicity . industrial designer: technical aspects . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: as for the design maybe we c should hire a designer to help . marketing: so i take three on with lcd ? industrial designer: yeah a three . marketing: so without lcd how would you rate it ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: uh four . i think it 's it 's uh more easy to make f fancy things when it 's not complicated marketing: four . industrial designer: so removing the lcd um gives us a li more liberty to to have a fancy look . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: and in the sense of innovativeness , with lcd . industrial designer: well it 's it 's the same for both so i will give a five , six . user interface: mm . marketing: five with lcd and user interface: industrial designer: well five also uh norman please . user interface: yeah project manager: uh user interface: from the innovation aspect i feel that uh what is most innovative of our prototype compared to the existing prototypes that we saw l in the last meeting is that um the retrieval of tv programmes by content , because uh that is really innovative , and for now and another innovation we have is simplicity and simplicity , few buttons , we 've uh a lot of functionalities . industrial designer: with lot of functionalities . user interface: so that is uh that is uh for both th marketing: so without lcd ? user interface: our gi i think that the our our product is uh has the best in all well this is a biased judgement industrial designer: user interface: because we designed them . marketing: no no according to design aspect we want to know how would you feel the innovativeness ? user interface: yeah . uh the innovation is v is very high i think . project manager: for lcd . marketing: with lcd . user interface: both . marketing: and without lcd ? industrial designer: mm for both it 's the the same innovations . user interface: for both . it 's the same innovation . so maybe i can put six to seven . marketing: okay . industrial designer: six , let 's go for six . project manager: without lcd . user interface: both . marketing: no actually uh to make it with lcd you make more efforts . so i there is high innovativeness included if you make it with lcd y industrial designer: yeah . marketing: then when it is without lcd there is not much innovativeness . user interface: mm . project manager: uh no innovative yeah . user interface: uh uh uh there w there was a there was a issue here is that what are what is the display on the lcd ? marketing: so we ca n't go project manager: industrial designer: talk about user interface: we have n't really uh determined what are actually actually project manager: marketing: i mean that what you are sayin that 's what the design user interface: it 's good to have a lcd but what are we gon na display on a lcd ? industrial designer: marketing: no it 's like this , project manager: marketing: i mean on the lcd , according to what i understand from your model is , you have a joystick here , and you have lcd , you just press your joystick , you get here a programme . project manager: so let 's remove it . user interface: yeah ? yeah . yeah but industrial designer: yeah project manager: but industrial designer: but you have the same programme on the tv screen . marketing: uh then user interface: yes exactly . project manager: this is the problem . marketing: no on the tv you do n't it does n't display on the tv now . industrial designer: if you have the lcd , but if n marketing: lcd ? then uh there is no meaning in having it on the tv . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: or then again you have a channels , volume and all the stuff and what a user interface: but you can not display all on a lcd . marketing: i mean that depends upon your design , so user interface: anyway for for the users who who who opt for lcd we 'll give them the give them the lcd , marketing: i mean user interface: we give what the customer uh wants , right . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: marketing: so without lcd you want to put it fi the same level of innovativeness ? and which do you recommend e easy to use , with lcd or without lcd ? user interface: industrial designer: well i think both are really easy to use because there are few button buttons , user interface: yeah industrial designer: and uh well t p the menu are clear , well-organised , so user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: well with little knowing of the technology you can you can easily use the product user interface: industrial designer: so i will give a six for the easy to use . user interface: yeah i think project manager: no it 's just if i i see the the f the rate i think it 's better to do it without lcd . user interface: sorry . project manager: because that 's with lcd just will increase the price , marketing: yeah . project manager: and i thi i they have the same rate so without lcd it will be user interface: yeah . marketing: or we can just go back to the previous slide uh where we ha we have a few updates . so i mean in the product design you could just amend it to make some few changes user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: according to fruit and vegetable or a spongy touch user interface: yeah . marketing: without lcd and without speech recognition . even then our product is going to be very good . industrial designer: yeah , it 's cheaper to produce . marketing: yeah . user interface: mm . s industrial designer: and uh if the the well if we have less technology we have more liberty to uh for the shape and uh things like that so marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: yeah . i have another thing to say about the easy to use aspect . i think the easy to use uh aspect is different for different people . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: for the young generation easy to use may be very complicated industrial designer: yep . user interface: because uh they w they wants lot of controls with lots of buttons . for kids they want simply the s similarit for the old people they want simplicity , marketing: yeah yeah that 's right . user interface: so that 's why we have the parental module . uh we can ha have build a more complex design if if they want it , but but uh what i 'm trying to say here is that the um we have different sets of buttons for different kinds of people . so in terms of easy to use i think it 's very user customisable . user customisation is very important yeah . yeah industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so industrial designer: six . marketing: so without lcd i just take it five ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: w uh marketing: or you want it to be six ? user interface: i think it 's the same . industrial designer: um six . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes as you say , with better uh project manager: without lcd . marketing: s s oh i think it 's better to have this without lcd . industrial designer: yeah . and to improve the the look . marketing: as our programme manager s pro project manager says that without lcd it is going to reduce the cost also , user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: and it 's going to be much simpler to use . industrial designer: yes and to give us more liberty to have a fancy look so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so let 's go back to our laboratory and user interface: to improve on the design . project manager: what a what what about the sys speech recognition ? marketing: so . project manager: what about the integration of speech recognition ? user interface: huh ? the speech recogniser is a add-on module . right ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that 's going to be an optional . user interface: yeah . marketing: if somebody wants to buy it they can have it , otherwise no . industrial designer: project manager: ah so it 's optional with the okay . marketing: it 's an optional . industrial designer: it 's optional yeah , since well according to this study uh people more likes more to have a spongy uh remote control than project manager: i think it will be i think i user interface: marketing: yeah . project manager: i think it will be better if we have all these modules in the same remote control , because maybe parents will lose these uh marketing: yeah , but i mean if you have an add-ons , the kids may just uh hide the parental module project manager: yeah . or ma yeah . marketing: and so that their parents ca n't use it . project manager: or maybe parents they can for forget where they put it or , industrial designer: project manager: so mayb better if you have all this in the same marketing: in the same set , yeah , project manager: marketing: and and individual buttons to make them work . project manager: yeah . user interface: the problem is if i we are bla if a customer wants a certain component , and does n't want the parental control because it 's a couple who do not have children when you sell the product in the market you could meet any kind of people , and not all people will need all the functionalities we propose to them . so we might lose the customer because of this . i do n't know , project manager: so you mean that even if these modules will be will be functional uh will be optional . user interface: what do you think uh ? yes exa what do you think , i do n't know . you are marketing manag . project manager: uh marketing: i mean how to how to how to make a marketing survey that uh how many married couple or how many couples have a tv user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: or to the number or singles who have a television . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so based on that i think user interface: yeah . but the the question is n does those modularity increase the production cost or decrease the production cost ? project manager: i think it inc increase . industrial designer: well you can if you had uh something li project manager: i think it i increases . industrial designer: oh no , project manager: industrial designer: because if you if you add uh something well yeah maybe because it 's three different pieces uh to to to build but project manager: hmm . marketing: but you can make it on a single p_c_ with three different options . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah user interface: industrial designer: it 's i think it 's cheaper if you if you already built the all the functionalities um on the same module , but uh user interface: mm . mm . yeah . marketing: on the same p_c_b_ user interface: well well the other aspect is that if in the when they have the ar existing product you you gon na maintain the the you 're gon na keep the same customer , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah yeah . user interface: because the same customer will come back to buy other add-ons . marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: so so marketing: i mean you could just provide with an optional . user interface: yeah i i so if do n't do n't buy now they can buy i in the future . so in in that way you 're actually keeping the cus the same customer , attracting them to come back in again and again . industrial designer: marketing: so it 's something like a microsoft product update . project manager: and and we we we we we we do n't want that . industrial designer: user interface: we 're not trying to follow the microsoft and we do n't want to the m project manager: marketing: updates and we sell it . we make updates and sell it . industrial designer: user interface: yeah well if the buyers can be up the th would be can be upgraded , it would be a good thing right ? project manager: industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah , it depends on the v production . marketing: and uh what 's the idea about uh the shape of the remote controls ? industrial designer: well so marketing: uh can they be made into a fruit and vegetable types ? industrial designer: yeah yeah marketing: do you require different types of p_c_b_s and industrial designer: i think we are yeah but we are also the um well the components will have to change because uh we have to deal with the shape and um but i do n't think it will uh increase the cost too much so user interface: mm . marketing: or uh it could be like this the p_c_b_ would be the same for all , but only the exterior uh shape is different o for all . user interface: mm . industrial designer: uh well but it 's a bit complicated to if if if you need machines to different machines to um ah well user interface: yeah . what we can change is to propose the customers with skins . for example the i the mobile phones nowaday , they sell different kinds of skin marketing: yeah , yeah that 's right . user interface: and then people just feel that oh i have a new skin and looks better . industrial designer: yeah yeah we can have the same global shape user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and then uh add on skins and with with this uh tex spongy texture uh things like that . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: yeah . yeah you can pl in what material would that be in uh ? industrial designer: sponge . marketing: i think you need to look into the material . user interface: yeah or furry like a pet dog kind of thing . industrial designer: marketing: yeah yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so industrial designer: so we finished the prototype uh presentation if you have uh something else to say . user interface: marketing: i think the project manager would be interested to look about the financial issues in making these models . project manager: project evaluation project satisfaction , for example . i do n't know , we have to ask these question . we have to give answers so marketing: user interface: i suppose that you this criteria , is it ? project manager: project evaluation . user interface: room for creativity . this room is a bit small , but industrial designer: project manager: user interface: but i think it 's okay for us to work with . marketing: i feel it 's fine , we know we do n't need uh i think it 's okay . user interface: yeah mm . industrial designer: that was good . marketing: this is fine for making a presentat for project presentations . user interface: mm . yeah anyway we have the laboratory nearby to build our modules so it 's okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and the leadership was excellent . project manager: yeah i think so . industrial designer: user interface: good job good job . industrial designer: fine yes uh project manager: he gave you the liberty to talk as you wants . marketing: yeah that 's right . yeah that 's right . project manager: uh the teamwork was very very good . i was really i am very satisfying to work with with you . industrial designer: very democratic . user interface: industrial designer: thank you . marketing: user interface: thank you . project manager: oh . industrial designer: alright . user interface: alright . marketing: and new ideas found . any new ideas to make these presentations more interactive and more interesting ? user interface: mm . industrial designer: come up with new product . project manager: less fancy . marketing: i mean uh what type of product would you think could we make this more interesting ? user interface: mm we i i know something , we need more cakes , more biscuits on the table while we have meetings . industrial designer: yeah and also more well uh more seriously i think it 's it 's a good idea to have uh clear clear points whenever we do a meeting marketing: user interface: mm . industrial designer: uh prior to the meeting to have uh well a list with the points who will be discussed or things like that , but i think it 's alright . we achieved uh project goal i think . marketing: yeah project manager: de marketing: that is within the budget . project manager: user interface: mm . industrial designer: it 's w yes , more or less . marketing: and the evaluation was project manager: without without lcd , without speech recognition , it will be simple . marketing: yeah that 's right . industrial designer: yeah but user interface: industrial designer: alright . so . marketing: and the next is celebration . industrial designer: so uh coffee machine . marketing: so project manager: yeah free free coffee user interface: alright then , we finished ? industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah thank you for your work and marketing: yeah thank you , thank you very much . user interface: thank you very much .

the switch for controlling was around the microphone , so the microphone could easily put up the speeches from anywhere . the microphone was in the side , so when users were browsing the lcd they would not be close to the microphone . industrial designer said that the place could be adjusted .

why did user interface say that it 's pretty flexible in the price when talking about two versions of the prototype ? </s> industrial designer: project manager: so in last meeting we have discussed the conceptual design and we asked you to prepare a prototype for the for the remote control . user interface: okay . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: so . so let 's see the what did you prepare . user interface: yeah , so can you go out to the shared folder ? mm the shared folder . project manager: sh share folder for th your presentation ? user interface: yes . we have a presentation . project manager: because i have here industrial designer: user interface: uh so i got the participant uh three . w uh . three . it 's the final design , yeah . project manager: okay just one . industrial designer: user interface: s so so i discussed with guillaume . industrial designer: mm . yeah . user interface: right . and uh so we have and we we are both agreed on some two versions of the prototypes , because we were no not decided whether we wanted to have an lcd or not because it 's too expensive . so we come up with two versions . one with and one without lcds . um but both comes with a charger and then detachable and uh or control module . and detachable big buttons for all people um . so . industrial designer: s okay so i 'll show you the the two prototypes . here we have the first one with the beautiful uh lcd um display . you you can s here . and you can uh just um browse into the the navigation menu by uh joystick joystick-like uh button . user interface: mm . industrial designer: you can uh choose the direction and if you just push on it it 's considered like a enter function . user interface: mm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: you have on the mm on the side here the microphone for the for the speech recognition system here . user interface: industrial designer: and here the the switch that control if you want project manager: why you why you you put it in the the side ? industrial designer: well i i i think uh it 's the project manager: it 's not a good place maybe . industrial designer: yeah but user interface: no i i it 's the all around camer uh microphone is n't it . the the microphone picks up the speeches from anywhere . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: is it an only a single mic or a microphone array ? industrial designer: well so it 's a microphone array . user interface: project manager: oh it 's very costly , microphone array . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no user interface: yeah industrial designer: it 's just a single microphone , and you i i think uh we we put it here because i think when you when you are browsing your lcd you will be close to user interface: mm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: well it 's better to to to place it here th than here , for instance . user interface: yeah yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: and here is a little switch that control if you want the the speaker uh recognition system to um to be on or off . and uh so this remote control comes up with its charger . project manager: how much does it cost this one ? industrial designer: well this this prototype is um made for about uh well fi fi fifteen fifteen dollars user interface: for the project manager: fifteen dollars ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: fifteen dollars , project manager: ah it 's above it 's above the budget . industrial designer: but uh well it 's not it 's not uh yeah , but uh it 's just a prototype and if we uh if we optimises the um the uh voila . marketing: the cost would be le reduced . industrial designer: yeah the and the the production costs we we can achieve uh about ten dollars . user interface: mm . hmm . project manager: how many b battery is there ? industrial designer: how many , excuse me ? project manager: battery . industrial designer: well uh f battery , we use uh about uh user interface: is it n the two a_a_s batteries in it . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: a_a_ rechargeable batteries . industrial designer: rechargeable of course , user interface: yeah rechargeable batteries . industrial designer: because we have the charger . user interface: we have the charger so it 's no problem . industrial designer: yeah and you just project manager: so one one battery ? industrial designer: on uh yeah one battery . marketing: is that two or one ? user interface: project manager: it 's kinetic reserve . user interface: actually uh it 's a flexible thing . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: you just n uh marketing: now what is the whole day rating for that ? industrial designer: the excuse me ? marketing: whole day 's rating . user interface: marketing: what type of battery ? industrial designer: oh yeah it 's just a r uh simple battery a rechargeable uh user interface: yeah yeah . industrial designer: if you uh like it 's exist . marketing: something like a two a_ , a_ three size batteries ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so and if you want to charge the battery you just put the remote control like that to plug in the the charger user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and uh leave it uh alone , it 's alright . user interface: mm . at uh yeah . industrial designer: then the next time you pick it , oh project manager: industrial designer: it works . user interface: i forgot to tell you there is only a single button there , b this button industrial designer: yeah just explain the button uh norman . user interface: yeah alright . this button is like the mouse is like a joystick , industrial designer: user interface: you can move in three hundred and sixty degrees of direction so you can make a turn and it the additi functions associated to all the actions you ma you have a click you have a double click all in a single button . project manager: mm . industrial designer: user interface: you can move up , down , left , right , or you can do a swing . so a swing to the left , a swing to the right defines other functions . so even though it 's a single button , but it is pretty s flexible because of the three hundred and sixty degree movement . marketing: and the lcd is this one , on the remote ? user interface: yeah . this is the version y that comes with lcd . industrial designer: yep . marketing: yeah . user interface: here i present another version without the lcd . industrial designer: project manager: i think it 's not a good idea because after maybe one or two months of function is getting destroyed . user interface: mm . project manager: if you user interface: uh okay this is new prototype uh . project manager: industrial designer: yeah it 's project manager: industrial designer: so we have the the second version also with the different uh button configuration . the second version is also simpler , we d uh we had just uh i have to put the microphone also . user interface: yeah yeah . marketing: industrial designer: so basically th it 's the same uh marketing: uh-huh and also the switch . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: basically it 's the same uh things uh uh as uh i presented before . but here we have uh we have uh four buttons for navigation . press one button uh acting as a a enter button . user interface: mm . industrial designer: so um yeah according to what you said it 's more robust to the user . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh it 's also cheaper to produce . we can produce uh such remote control for about uh four dollars . project manager: no four dollars , it 's good . user interface: marketing: and i think you forgot a point here to have an button to find the charger , user interface: oh no marketing: because that 's a major that 's a user interface: th actually th we 'll come to that point in our industrial designer: yeah it 's it 's it 's embed in the uh speech recognition system . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay industrial designer: so marketing: and if you disable speech recognition system then ? user interface: w w i 'll i 'll come to that point later on . industrial designer: so norman will explain to you . marketing: mm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm . project manager: and we will we will serve the charger with this ? user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah yeah of course mm . user interface: th they either these with the uh the the charger any project manager: with the remote control . user interface: in either versions you they they ha they use the same charger yeah . project manager: okay so the price of the charger included in the user interface: uh it 's a standard module so you should get it for a cheap price uh . project manager: industrial designer: thank thank you . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and so mm-hmm . user interface: it 's that same charger that you can use for the hand-phone but uh again depends on the types . i think we have to investigate more on that , but project manager: the price should be below twelve and a half euro . user interface: yeah . yeah project manager: well that 's so user interface: but as the marketing manager says , people is willing to people are willing to pay more for good design . project manager: we have we have just marketing: yeah people are willing to pay more , user interface: industrial designer: marketing: but the company is not willing to invest more at the moment . project manager: the price of selling is twenty five euros . user interface: yeah . yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: and the price of production user interface: industrial designer: alright please uh go on norman with the special features . marketing: or uh user interface: yeah we 'll we 'll come up to that , the the the thing that makes this the controller cheap is that it is modular so you want more function you pay more . if you want less function i i if you want a reasonable price you pay for the functions that you add on to the system , marketing: user interface: so is uh modular . project manager: that 's for this basis function and if you want more you pay more . user interface: yeah yeah , project manager: user interface: for example the lcd , you can take it you can put it put it back in , or you can use the other one , marketing: something like customised . yeah project manager: yeah . user interface: or the speech recogniser with the microphone yeah yeah . industrial designer: user interface: you want a microphone to put in the speech recogniser you do n't wan you pay less for the system you see . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: mm hmm hmm hmm . project manager: user interface: so marketing: hmm okay . user interface: it 's pretty flexible in the yeah price . industrial designer: you also have the the the two other modules for the parental control project manager: but user interface: uh yeah yeah you should present that . industrial designer: that that you ca you can add up to the to your remote control marketing: and this is other one ? user interface: industrial designer: i i if you uh if you want to to have more more power on what you do , and uh which channel you want to choose and so on . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: h here is just the the the module for the kids and th if the parents want to watch tv , up they come up with their modules , marketing: mm hmm hmm hmm . industrial designer: they just plug in it user interface: yeah industrial designer: and they can have all the control they want here . user interface: mm . industrial designer: we also have this module for uh old people with big buttons , clearly labelled , user interface: hmm . industrial designer: and it acts like the previous one , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: you just plug in and it works . user interface: yeah marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: the i the idea the the conceptual idea is that simplicity and powerful . simplicity meaning that we have few buttons , powerful is that all the controls with the one you saw we saw earlier in the meetings with lots of buttons n but here you only have few buttons but you retain the mm the same powerful functionalities . but in addition with simplicity . so that 's the best idea , the cond that that 's our uh an innovation um uh i in this uh design here . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: okay now we come to other important features that i did not tell you . the first one is the speech recogniser , again it 's detachable or add-on . and then we also have security feature for example this here oop industrial designer: user interface: it 's very robust , it does n't break and the material , what 's the material again ? industrial designer: the titanium project manager: titanium . industrial designer: and so it 's very uh user interface: again uh and the battery life is uh is an is an endurable one , again because this is a_a_ batteries you can choose the types of battery you want . marketing: yeah that 's fine . user interface: lithium-ion may be a good one , but you can replace it with cheaper one , again you pay for what you get , and then um y the other p points are robust and misplacement reminder . so when you finish watching your tv and you the you t you turn off the tv , uh and then there 's this message coming out that uh please put that back to the charger , so so that 's the or is it marketing: okay . user interface: that 's the reminder part . yeah and um and it also use a programmable channel and vocabulary , so we did n't define the vocabulary so it 's up to the user to define marketing: mm hmm hmm hmm . user interface: so sorry ? project manager: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: and then uh because of the chil because children are using the device so we have also a a of tv programmes by genre , and this can be used by the adult or by the children . so instead of choosing the channel you are choosing the tv contents of the night . so it 's pretty powerful , and that 's that 's why the num buttons are reduced , because of this feature . yeah . and and for the materials that is cheap to produce i think uh it 's quite clear from yeah . project manager: user interface: and also like the and the fancy designs yeah . project manager: what what 's user interface: maybe we can improve more on the design but project manager: maybe yeah . industrial designer: project manager: what 's the price to p to produce ? user interface: uh this is the industrial designer: well so the price to produce for uh the simplest one , say we start from four dollars to produce such a device . project manager: with with with the charge ? industrial designer: uh it 's about it the without without the charger marketing: with the charger ? project manager: okay . user interface: yeah industrial designer: it 's about uh well two dollars to produce uh the microphone and speech recognition systems . user interface: industrial designer: two dollars for the uh for the add-on modules , and finally three dollars for the charger . so if you uh sum up uh everything wi with the lcd , which costs two dollar , you have two plus four plus four plus two plus two . user interface: yeah . project manager: we do n't have charger . marketing: i think we can use excel . industrial designer: it 's about project manager: we do n't have all the options . industrial designer: so the total cost if you if you want all the fuct functionalities will be about uh fifteen dollars . project manager: charger we do n't have charger here either . user interface: yeah . project manager: no it 's industrial designer: but it 's just if you want all functionalities . project manager: it 's below the the the budget . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: excuse me ? project manager: it 's below the bu the budget . user interface: marketing: yeah it 's a nice input project manager: we marketing: but we have an other inputs from the l public demands . project manager: marketing: i think we will just have a rough look and then we can make our statements , and we can finalise the product based on this discu user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i think we can just go to my presentation then . we can wind up . or we could uh come to some f uh final conclusions . user interface: marketing: so the marketing made an evaluation criteria and these were some of the findings , and uh in the market the people are not really interested with lcd , without lcd , with speech recognition interface , or without speech recognition interface , but most of the people what they are interested is first thing is , they want to have an fancy look and feel , it should be very fancy with colourful and uh very handy to hold . user interface: mm . marketing: and the second thing is it should be much more technologically innovative . user interface: marketing: of course in that we could put lcd or recognition to be more technologically innovative . and the third one is easy to use . user interface: mm . industrial designer: well i think that the technical in innovation is is in the product itself since we have n't yet a remote who are allowing to to choose interactively with the tv screen uh uh with just four buttons . marketing: okay and if we go to the next slide , here you can find these are the latest fashion updates , and so this in paris and milan they have detected this trends that the this year it 's going to be an year of fruit and vegetable , so people are really interested to see if they have an remote in the shape of the fruit or a vegetable , or whatever they like . user interface: spongy spongy . mm mm . marketing: so i think it should be much more customised to make a different uh shapes . user interface: mm mm . marketing: and the second thing is , and if the material , they really do not want it to be very hard , as in the case of very pl plastic or titanium , it should be somewhat spongy . user interface: but the the problem is that uh is it robust to mishandling ? industrial designer: okay . user interface: we have you should find a material that is robust at the same time spongy . industrial designer: a sponge . marketing: yeah so uh so finally we have these three criterias . user interface: spongy . marketing: one is fancy look , second is innovative , and third is easy to use . user interface: marketing: so these are the f uh three criteria on which we are going to build our remote . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so and we have an evaluation criteria for each one of these , industrial designer: hmm . marketing: say that we have a seven point scale , from one to seven , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: and for each of the product you could just give me the scale according to this . user interface: mm . industrial designer: marketing: so now you have with lcd and without lcd , user interface: mm . marketing: so on this scale , if it is true , if it is if it has a fancy look you could just tell me one , or if it is false , it does n't it looks uh it does n't look much fancy , then you could just tell me seven . so user interface: so marketing: we can make our study on this and user interface: so is the e evaluation depending on us or other users ? marketing: no no we have you have designed two products now , project manager: yeah . marketing: one is with lcd and without lcd . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: but who will give the scoring uh we ourself or or a third party ? project manager: you . marketing: according to you , no according to you designers , how will feel does it uh with lcd and without lcd ? user interface: mm . marketing: okay let us make this l_ and without lcd . on on this scale the lcd remote control . how do you look how does it look ? user interface: mm . mm . marketing: d is it very fancy or does n't look much fancy ? industrial designer: well it does n't look much fancy i 'll i 'll say three or four . marketing: and you both agree for that ? project manager: and you ? user interface: i think we can improve on the design . marketing: user interface: som someone um commented this is like a the stone age uh design . industrial designer: yeah . it 's it it project manager: user interface: um we have been focused all all this time on the on the technical aspect , functional aspect , but also the simplicity . industrial designer: technical aspects . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: as for the design maybe we c should hire a designer to help . marketing: so i take three on with lcd ? industrial designer: yeah a three . marketing: so without lcd how would you rate it ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: uh four . i think it 's it 's uh more easy to make f fancy things when it 's not complicated marketing: four . industrial designer: so removing the lcd um gives us a li more liberty to to have a fancy look . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: and in the sense of innovativeness , with lcd . industrial designer: well it 's it 's the same for both so i will give a five , six . user interface: mm . marketing: five with lcd and user interface: industrial designer: well five also uh norman please . user interface: yeah project manager: uh user interface: from the innovation aspect i feel that uh what is most innovative of our prototype compared to the existing prototypes that we saw l in the last meeting is that um the retrieval of tv programmes by content , because uh that is really innovative , and for now and another innovation we have is simplicity and simplicity , few buttons , we 've uh a lot of functionalities . industrial designer: with lot of functionalities . user interface: so that is uh that is uh for both th marketing: so without lcd ? user interface: our gi i think that the our our product is uh has the best in all well this is a biased judgement industrial designer: user interface: because we designed them . marketing: no no according to design aspect we want to know how would you feel the innovativeness ? user interface: yeah . uh the innovation is v is very high i think . project manager: for lcd . marketing: with lcd . user interface: both . marketing: and without lcd ? industrial designer: mm for both it 's the the same innovations . user interface: for both . it 's the same innovation . so maybe i can put six to seven . marketing: okay . industrial designer: six , let 's go for six . project manager: without lcd . user interface: both . marketing: no actually uh to make it with lcd you make more efforts . so i there is high innovativeness included if you make it with lcd y industrial designer: yeah . marketing: then when it is without lcd there is not much innovativeness . user interface: mm . project manager: uh no innovative yeah . user interface: uh uh uh there w there was a there was a issue here is that what are what is the display on the lcd ? marketing: so we ca n't go project manager: industrial designer: talk about user interface: we have n't really uh determined what are actually actually project manager: marketing: i mean that what you are sayin that 's what the design user interface: it 's good to have a lcd but what are we gon na display on a lcd ? industrial designer: marketing: no it 's like this , project manager: marketing: i mean on the lcd , according to what i understand from your model is , you have a joystick here , and you have lcd , you just press your joystick , you get here a programme . project manager: so let 's remove it . user interface: yeah ? yeah . yeah but industrial designer: yeah project manager: but industrial designer: but you have the same programme on the tv screen . marketing: uh then user interface: yes exactly . project manager: this is the problem . marketing: no on the tv you do n't it does n't display on the tv now . industrial designer: if you have the lcd , but if n marketing: lcd ? then uh there is no meaning in having it on the tv . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: or then again you have a channels , volume and all the stuff and what a user interface: but you can not display all on a lcd . marketing: i mean that depends upon your design , so user interface: anyway for for the users who who who opt for lcd we 'll give them the give them the lcd , marketing: i mean user interface: we give what the customer uh wants , right . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: marketing: so without lcd you want to put it fi the same level of innovativeness ? and which do you recommend e easy to use , with lcd or without lcd ? user interface: industrial designer: well i think both are really easy to use because there are few button buttons , user interface: yeah industrial designer: and uh well t p the menu are clear , well-organised , so user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: well with little knowing of the technology you can you can easily use the product user interface: industrial designer: so i will give a six for the easy to use . user interface: yeah i think project manager: no it 's just if i i see the the f the rate i think it 's better to do it without lcd . user interface: sorry . project manager: because that 's with lcd just will increase the price , marketing: yeah . project manager: and i thi i they have the same rate so without lcd it will be user interface: yeah . marketing: or we can just go back to the previous slide uh where we ha we have a few updates . so i mean in the product design you could just amend it to make some few changes user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: according to fruit and vegetable or a spongy touch user interface: yeah . marketing: without lcd and without speech recognition . even then our product is going to be very good . industrial designer: yeah , it 's cheaper to produce . marketing: yeah . user interface: mm . s industrial designer: and uh if the the well if we have less technology we have more liberty to uh for the shape and uh things like that so marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: yeah . i have another thing to say about the easy to use aspect . i think the easy to use uh aspect is different for different people . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: for the young generation easy to use may be very complicated industrial designer: yep . user interface: because uh they w they wants lot of controls with lots of buttons . for kids they want simply the s similarit for the old people they want simplicity , marketing: yeah yeah that 's right . user interface: so that 's why we have the parental module . uh we can ha have build a more complex design if if they want it , but but uh what i 'm trying to say here is that the um we have different sets of buttons for different kinds of people . so in terms of easy to use i think it 's very user customisable . user customisation is very important yeah . yeah industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so industrial designer: six . marketing: so without lcd i just take it five ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: w uh marketing: or you want it to be six ? user interface: i think it 's the same . industrial designer: um six . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes as you say , with better uh project manager: without lcd . marketing: s s oh i think it 's better to have this without lcd . industrial designer: yeah . and to improve the the look . marketing: as our programme manager s pro project manager says that without lcd it is going to reduce the cost also , user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: and it 's going to be much simpler to use . industrial designer: yes and to give us more liberty to have a fancy look so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so let 's go back to our laboratory and user interface: to improve on the design . project manager: what a what what about the sys speech recognition ? marketing: so . project manager: what about the integration of speech recognition ? user interface: huh ? the speech recogniser is a add-on module . right ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that 's going to be an optional . user interface: yeah . marketing: if somebody wants to buy it they can have it , otherwise no . industrial designer: project manager: ah so it 's optional with the okay . marketing: it 's an optional . industrial designer: it 's optional yeah , since well according to this study uh people more likes more to have a spongy uh remote control than project manager: i think it will be i think i user interface: marketing: yeah . project manager: i think it will be better if we have all these modules in the same remote control , because maybe parents will lose these uh marketing: yeah , but i mean if you have an add-ons , the kids may just uh hide the parental module project manager: yeah . or ma yeah . marketing: and so that their parents ca n't use it . project manager: or maybe parents they can for forget where they put it or , industrial designer: project manager: so mayb better if you have all this in the same marketing: in the same set , yeah , project manager: marketing: and and individual buttons to make them work . project manager: yeah . user interface: the problem is if i we are bla if a customer wants a certain component , and does n't want the parental control because it 's a couple who do not have children when you sell the product in the market you could meet any kind of people , and not all people will need all the functionalities we propose to them . so we might lose the customer because of this . i do n't know , project manager: so you mean that even if these modules will be will be functional uh will be optional . user interface: what do you think uh ? yes exa what do you think , i do n't know . you are marketing manag . project manager: uh marketing: i mean how to how to how to make a marketing survey that uh how many married couple or how many couples have a tv user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: or to the number or singles who have a television . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so based on that i think user interface: yeah . but the the question is n does those modularity increase the production cost or decrease the production cost ? project manager: i think it inc increase . industrial designer: well you can if you had uh something li project manager: i think it i increases . industrial designer: oh no , project manager: industrial designer: because if you if you add uh something well yeah maybe because it 's three different pieces uh to to to build but project manager: hmm . marketing: but you can make it on a single p_c_ with three different options . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah user interface: industrial designer: it 's i think it 's cheaper if you if you already built the all the functionalities um on the same module , but uh user interface: mm . mm . yeah . marketing: on the same p_c_b_ user interface: well well the other aspect is that if in the when they have the ar existing product you you gon na maintain the the you 're gon na keep the same customer , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah yeah . user interface: because the same customer will come back to buy other add-ons . marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: so so marketing: i mean you could just provide with an optional . user interface: yeah i i so if do n't do n't buy now they can buy i in the future . so in in that way you 're actually keeping the cus the same customer , attracting them to come back in again and again . industrial designer: marketing: so it 's something like a microsoft product update . project manager: and and we we we we we we do n't want that . industrial designer: user interface: we 're not trying to follow the microsoft and we do n't want to the m project manager: marketing: updates and we sell it . we make updates and sell it . industrial designer: user interface: yeah well if the buyers can be up the th would be can be upgraded , it would be a good thing right ? project manager: industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah , it depends on the v production . marketing: and uh what 's the idea about uh the shape of the remote controls ? industrial designer: well so marketing: uh can they be made into a fruit and vegetable types ? industrial designer: yeah yeah marketing: do you require different types of p_c_b_s and industrial designer: i think we are yeah but we are also the um well the components will have to change because uh we have to deal with the shape and um but i do n't think it will uh increase the cost too much so user interface: mm . marketing: or uh it could be like this the p_c_b_ would be the same for all , but only the exterior uh shape is different o for all . user interface: mm . industrial designer: uh well but it 's a bit complicated to if if if you need machines to different machines to um ah well user interface: yeah . what we can change is to propose the customers with skins . for example the i the mobile phones nowaday , they sell different kinds of skin marketing: yeah , yeah that 's right . user interface: and then people just feel that oh i have a new skin and looks better . industrial designer: yeah yeah we can have the same global shape user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and then uh add on skins and with with this uh tex spongy texture uh things like that . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: yeah . yeah you can pl in what material would that be in uh ? industrial designer: sponge . marketing: i think you need to look into the material . user interface: yeah or furry like a pet dog kind of thing . industrial designer: marketing: yeah yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so industrial designer: so we finished the prototype uh presentation if you have uh something else to say . user interface: marketing: i think the project manager would be interested to look about the financial issues in making these models . project manager: project evaluation project satisfaction , for example . i do n't know , we have to ask these question . we have to give answers so marketing: user interface: i suppose that you this criteria , is it ? project manager: project evaluation . user interface: room for creativity . this room is a bit small , but industrial designer: project manager: user interface: but i think it 's okay for us to work with . marketing: i feel it 's fine , we know we do n't need uh i think it 's okay . user interface: yeah mm . industrial designer: that was good . marketing: this is fine for making a presentat for project presentations . user interface: mm . yeah anyway we have the laboratory nearby to build our modules so it 's okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and the leadership was excellent . project manager: yeah i think so . industrial designer: user interface: good job good job . industrial designer: fine yes uh project manager: he gave you the liberty to talk as you wants . marketing: yeah that 's right . yeah that 's right . project manager: uh the teamwork was very very good . i was really i am very satisfying to work with with you . industrial designer: very democratic . user interface: industrial designer: thank you . marketing: user interface: thank you . project manager: oh . industrial designer: alright . user interface: alright . marketing: and new ideas found . any new ideas to make these presentations more interactive and more interesting ? user interface: mm . industrial designer: come up with new product . project manager: less fancy . marketing: i mean uh what type of product would you think could we make this more interesting ? user interface: mm we i i know something , we need more cakes , more biscuits on the table while we have meetings . industrial designer: yeah and also more well uh more seriously i think it 's it 's a good idea to have uh clear clear points whenever we do a meeting marketing: user interface: mm . industrial designer: uh prior to the meeting to have uh well a list with the points who will be discussed or things like that , but i think it 's alright . we achieved uh project goal i think . marketing: yeah project manager: de marketing: that is within the budget . project manager: user interface: mm . industrial designer: it 's w yes , more or less . marketing: and the evaluation was project manager: without without lcd , without speech recognition , it will be simple . marketing: yeah that 's right . industrial designer: yeah but user interface: industrial designer: alright . so . marketing: and the next is celebration . industrial designer: so uh coffee machine . marketing: so project manager: yeah free free coffee user interface: alright then , we finished ? industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah thank you for your work and marketing: yeah thank you , thank you very much . user interface: thank you very much .

the product would have basic functions and if users wanted more they need to pay more . for example , if users wanted lcd and speech recognisers with the microphone , they would pay more , else they could just buy the simpler one .

summarize the evaluation of two versions and further discussion . </s> industrial designer: project manager: so in last meeting we have discussed the conceptual design and we asked you to prepare a prototype for the for the remote control . user interface: okay . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: so . so let 's see the what did you prepare . user interface: yeah , so can you go out to the shared folder ? mm the shared folder . project manager: sh share folder for th your presentation ? user interface: yes . we have a presentation . project manager: because i have here industrial designer: user interface: uh so i got the participant uh three . w uh . three . it 's the final design , yeah . project manager: okay just one . industrial designer: user interface: s so so i discussed with guillaume . industrial designer: mm . yeah . user interface: right . and uh so we have and we we are both agreed on some two versions of the prototypes , because we were no not decided whether we wanted to have an lcd or not because it 's too expensive . so we come up with two versions . one with and one without lcds . um but both comes with a charger and then detachable and uh or control module . and detachable big buttons for all people um . so . industrial designer: s okay so i 'll show you the the two prototypes . here we have the first one with the beautiful uh lcd um display . you you can s here . and you can uh just um browse into the the navigation menu by uh joystick joystick-like uh button . user interface: mm . industrial designer: you can uh choose the direction and if you just push on it it 's considered like a enter function . user interface: mm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: you have on the mm on the side here the microphone for the for the speech recognition system here . user interface: industrial designer: and here the the switch that control if you want project manager: why you why you you put it in the the side ? industrial designer: well i i i think uh it 's the project manager: it 's not a good place maybe . industrial designer: yeah but user interface: no i i it 's the all around camer uh microphone is n't it . the the microphone picks up the speeches from anywhere . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: is it an only a single mic or a microphone array ? industrial designer: well so it 's a microphone array . user interface: project manager: oh it 's very costly , microphone array . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no user interface: yeah industrial designer: it 's just a single microphone , and you i i think uh we we put it here because i think when you when you are browsing your lcd you will be close to user interface: mm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: well it 's better to to to place it here th than here , for instance . user interface: yeah yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: and here is a little switch that control if you want the the speaker uh recognition system to um to be on or off . and uh so this remote control comes up with its charger . project manager: how much does it cost this one ? industrial designer: well this this prototype is um made for about uh well fi fi fifteen fifteen dollars user interface: for the project manager: fifteen dollars ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: fifteen dollars , project manager: ah it 's above it 's above the budget . industrial designer: but uh well it 's not it 's not uh yeah , but uh it 's just a prototype and if we uh if we optimises the um the uh voila . marketing: the cost would be le reduced . industrial designer: yeah the and the the production costs we we can achieve uh about ten dollars . user interface: mm . hmm . project manager: how many b battery is there ? industrial designer: how many , excuse me ? project manager: battery . industrial designer: well uh f battery , we use uh about uh user interface: is it n the two a_a_s batteries in it . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: a_a_ rechargeable batteries . industrial designer: rechargeable of course , user interface: yeah rechargeable batteries . industrial designer: because we have the charger . user interface: we have the charger so it 's no problem . industrial designer: yeah and you just project manager: so one one battery ? industrial designer: on uh yeah one battery . marketing: is that two or one ? user interface: project manager: it 's kinetic reserve . user interface: actually uh it 's a flexible thing . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: you just n uh marketing: now what is the whole day rating for that ? industrial designer: the excuse me ? marketing: whole day 's rating . user interface: marketing: what type of battery ? industrial designer: oh yeah it 's just a r uh simple battery a rechargeable uh user interface: yeah yeah . industrial designer: if you uh like it 's exist . marketing: something like a two a_ , a_ three size batteries ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so and if you want to charge the battery you just put the remote control like that to plug in the the charger user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and uh leave it uh alone , it 's alright . user interface: mm . at uh yeah . industrial designer: then the next time you pick it , oh project manager: industrial designer: it works . user interface: i forgot to tell you there is only a single button there , b this button industrial designer: yeah just explain the button uh norman . user interface: yeah alright . this button is like the mouse is like a joystick , industrial designer: user interface: you can move in three hundred and sixty degrees of direction so you can make a turn and it the additi functions associated to all the actions you ma you have a click you have a double click all in a single button . project manager: mm . industrial designer: user interface: you can move up , down , left , right , or you can do a swing . so a swing to the left , a swing to the right defines other functions . so even though it 's a single button , but it is pretty s flexible because of the three hundred and sixty degree movement . marketing: and the lcd is this one , on the remote ? user interface: yeah . this is the version y that comes with lcd . industrial designer: yep . marketing: yeah . user interface: here i present another version without the lcd . industrial designer: project manager: i think it 's not a good idea because after maybe one or two months of function is getting destroyed . user interface: mm . project manager: if you user interface: uh okay this is new prototype uh . project manager: industrial designer: yeah it 's project manager: industrial designer: so we have the the second version also with the different uh button configuration . the second version is also simpler , we d uh we had just uh i have to put the microphone also . user interface: yeah yeah . marketing: industrial designer: so basically th it 's the same uh marketing: uh-huh and also the switch . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: basically it 's the same uh things uh uh as uh i presented before . but here we have uh we have uh four buttons for navigation . press one button uh acting as a a enter button . user interface: mm . industrial designer: so um yeah according to what you said it 's more robust to the user . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh it 's also cheaper to produce . we can produce uh such remote control for about uh four dollars . project manager: no four dollars , it 's good . user interface: marketing: and i think you forgot a point here to have an button to find the charger , user interface: oh no marketing: because that 's a major that 's a user interface: th actually th we 'll come to that point in our industrial designer: yeah it 's it 's it 's embed in the uh speech recognition system . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay industrial designer: so marketing: and if you disable speech recognition system then ? user interface: w w i 'll i 'll come to that point later on . industrial designer: so norman will explain to you . marketing: mm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm . project manager: and we will we will serve the charger with this ? user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah yeah of course mm . user interface: th they either these with the uh the the charger any project manager: with the remote control . user interface: in either versions you they they ha they use the same charger yeah . project manager: okay so the price of the charger included in the user interface: uh it 's a standard module so you should get it for a cheap price uh . project manager: industrial designer: thank thank you . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and so mm-hmm . user interface: it 's that same charger that you can use for the hand-phone but uh again depends on the types . i think we have to investigate more on that , but project manager: the price should be below twelve and a half euro . user interface: yeah . yeah project manager: well that 's so user interface: but as the marketing manager says , people is willing to people are willing to pay more for good design . project manager: we have we have just marketing: yeah people are willing to pay more , user interface: industrial designer: marketing: but the company is not willing to invest more at the moment . project manager: the price of selling is twenty five euros . user interface: yeah . yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: and the price of production user interface: industrial designer: alright please uh go on norman with the special features . marketing: or uh user interface: yeah we 'll we 'll come up to that , the the the thing that makes this the controller cheap is that it is modular so you want more function you pay more . if you want less function i i if you want a reasonable price you pay for the functions that you add on to the system , marketing: user interface: so is uh modular . project manager: that 's for this basis function and if you want more you pay more . user interface: yeah yeah , project manager: user interface: for example the lcd , you can take it you can put it put it back in , or you can use the other one , marketing: something like customised . yeah project manager: yeah . user interface: or the speech recogniser with the microphone yeah yeah . industrial designer: user interface: you want a microphone to put in the speech recogniser you do n't wan you pay less for the system you see . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: mm hmm hmm hmm . project manager: user interface: so marketing: hmm okay . user interface: it 's pretty flexible in the yeah price . industrial designer: you also have the the the two other modules for the parental control project manager: but user interface: uh yeah yeah you should present that . industrial designer: that that you ca you can add up to the to your remote control marketing: and this is other one ? user interface: industrial designer: i i if you uh if you want to to have more more power on what you do , and uh which channel you want to choose and so on . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: h here is just the the the module for the kids and th if the parents want to watch tv , up they come up with their modules , marketing: mm hmm hmm hmm . industrial designer: they just plug in it user interface: yeah industrial designer: and they can have all the control they want here . user interface: mm . industrial designer: we also have this module for uh old people with big buttons , clearly labelled , user interface: hmm . industrial designer: and it acts like the previous one , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: you just plug in and it works . user interface: yeah marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: the i the idea the the conceptual idea is that simplicity and powerful . simplicity meaning that we have few buttons , powerful is that all the controls with the one you saw we saw earlier in the meetings with lots of buttons n but here you only have few buttons but you retain the mm the same powerful functionalities . but in addition with simplicity . so that 's the best idea , the cond that that 's our uh an innovation um uh i in this uh design here . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: okay now we come to other important features that i did not tell you . the first one is the speech recogniser , again it 's detachable or add-on . and then we also have security feature for example this here oop industrial designer: user interface: it 's very robust , it does n't break and the material , what 's the material again ? industrial designer: the titanium project manager: titanium . industrial designer: and so it 's very uh user interface: again uh and the battery life is uh is an is an endurable one , again because this is a_a_ batteries you can choose the types of battery you want . marketing: yeah that 's fine . user interface: lithium-ion may be a good one , but you can replace it with cheaper one , again you pay for what you get , and then um y the other p points are robust and misplacement reminder . so when you finish watching your tv and you the you t you turn off the tv , uh and then there 's this message coming out that uh please put that back to the charger , so so that 's the or is it marketing: okay . user interface: that 's the reminder part . yeah and um and it also use a programmable channel and vocabulary , so we did n't define the vocabulary so it 's up to the user to define marketing: mm hmm hmm hmm . user interface: so sorry ? project manager: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: and then uh because of the chil because children are using the device so we have also a a of tv programmes by genre , and this can be used by the adult or by the children . so instead of choosing the channel you are choosing the tv contents of the night . so it 's pretty powerful , and that 's that 's why the num buttons are reduced , because of this feature . yeah . and and for the materials that is cheap to produce i think uh it 's quite clear from yeah . project manager: user interface: and also like the and the fancy designs yeah . project manager: what what 's user interface: maybe we can improve more on the design but project manager: maybe yeah . industrial designer: project manager: what 's the price to p to produce ? user interface: uh this is the industrial designer: well so the price to produce for uh the simplest one , say we start from four dollars to produce such a device . project manager: with with with the charge ? industrial designer: uh it 's about it the without without the charger marketing: with the charger ? project manager: okay . user interface: yeah industrial designer: it 's about uh well two dollars to produce uh the microphone and speech recognition systems . user interface: industrial designer: two dollars for the uh for the add-on modules , and finally three dollars for the charger . so if you uh sum up uh everything wi with the lcd , which costs two dollar , you have two plus four plus four plus two plus two . user interface: yeah . project manager: we do n't have charger . marketing: i think we can use excel . industrial designer: it 's about project manager: we do n't have all the options . industrial designer: so the total cost if you if you want all the fuct functionalities will be about uh fifteen dollars . project manager: charger we do n't have charger here either . user interface: yeah . project manager: no it 's industrial designer: but it 's just if you want all functionalities . project manager: it 's below the the the budget . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: excuse me ? project manager: it 's below the bu the budget . user interface: marketing: yeah it 's a nice input project manager: we marketing: but we have an other inputs from the l public demands . project manager: marketing: i think we will just have a rough look and then we can make our statements , and we can finalise the product based on this discu user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i think we can just go to my presentation then . we can wind up . or we could uh come to some f uh final conclusions . user interface: marketing: so the marketing made an evaluation criteria and these were some of the findings , and uh in the market the people are not really interested with lcd , without lcd , with speech recognition interface , or without speech recognition interface , but most of the people what they are interested is first thing is , they want to have an fancy look and feel , it should be very fancy with colourful and uh very handy to hold . user interface: mm . marketing: and the second thing is it should be much more technologically innovative . user interface: marketing: of course in that we could put lcd or recognition to be more technologically innovative . and the third one is easy to use . user interface: mm . industrial designer: well i think that the technical in innovation is is in the product itself since we have n't yet a remote who are allowing to to choose interactively with the tv screen uh uh with just four buttons . marketing: okay and if we go to the next slide , here you can find these are the latest fashion updates , and so this in paris and milan they have detected this trends that the this year it 's going to be an year of fruit and vegetable , so people are really interested to see if they have an remote in the shape of the fruit or a vegetable , or whatever they like . user interface: spongy spongy . mm mm . marketing: so i think it should be much more customised to make a different uh shapes . user interface: mm mm . marketing: and the second thing is , and if the material , they really do not want it to be very hard , as in the case of very pl plastic or titanium , it should be somewhat spongy . user interface: but the the problem is that uh is it robust to mishandling ? industrial designer: okay . user interface: we have you should find a material that is robust at the same time spongy . industrial designer: a sponge . marketing: yeah so uh so finally we have these three criterias . user interface: spongy . marketing: one is fancy look , second is innovative , and third is easy to use . user interface: marketing: so these are the f uh three criteria on which we are going to build our remote . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so and we have an evaluation criteria for each one of these , industrial designer: hmm . marketing: say that we have a seven point scale , from one to seven , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: and for each of the product you could just give me the scale according to this . user interface: mm . industrial designer: marketing: so now you have with lcd and without lcd , user interface: mm . marketing: so on this scale , if it is true , if it is if it has a fancy look you could just tell me one , or if it is false , it does n't it looks uh it does n't look much fancy , then you could just tell me seven . so user interface: so marketing: we can make our study on this and user interface: so is the e evaluation depending on us or other users ? marketing: no no we have you have designed two products now , project manager: yeah . marketing: one is with lcd and without lcd . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: but who will give the scoring uh we ourself or or a third party ? project manager: you . marketing: according to you , no according to you designers , how will feel does it uh with lcd and without lcd ? user interface: mm . marketing: okay let us make this l_ and without lcd . on on this scale the lcd remote control . how do you look how does it look ? user interface: mm . mm . marketing: d is it very fancy or does n't look much fancy ? industrial designer: well it does n't look much fancy i 'll i 'll say three or four . marketing: and you both agree for that ? project manager: and you ? user interface: i think we can improve on the design . marketing: user interface: som someone um commented this is like a the stone age uh design . industrial designer: yeah . it 's it it project manager: user interface: um we have been focused all all this time on the on the technical aspect , functional aspect , but also the simplicity . industrial designer: technical aspects . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: as for the design maybe we c should hire a designer to help . marketing: so i take three on with lcd ? industrial designer: yeah a three . marketing: so without lcd how would you rate it ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: uh four . i think it 's it 's uh more easy to make f fancy things when it 's not complicated marketing: four . industrial designer: so removing the lcd um gives us a li more liberty to to have a fancy look . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: and in the sense of innovativeness , with lcd . industrial designer: well it 's it 's the same for both so i will give a five , six . user interface: mm . marketing: five with lcd and user interface: industrial designer: well five also uh norman please . user interface: yeah project manager: uh user interface: from the innovation aspect i feel that uh what is most innovative of our prototype compared to the existing prototypes that we saw l in the last meeting is that um the retrieval of tv programmes by content , because uh that is really innovative , and for now and another innovation we have is simplicity and simplicity , few buttons , we 've uh a lot of functionalities . industrial designer: with lot of functionalities . user interface: so that is uh that is uh for both th marketing: so without lcd ? user interface: our gi i think that the our our product is uh has the best in all well this is a biased judgement industrial designer: user interface: because we designed them . marketing: no no according to design aspect we want to know how would you feel the innovativeness ? user interface: yeah . uh the innovation is v is very high i think . project manager: for lcd . marketing: with lcd . user interface: both . marketing: and without lcd ? industrial designer: mm for both it 's the the same innovations . user interface: for both . it 's the same innovation . so maybe i can put six to seven . marketing: okay . industrial designer: six , let 's go for six . project manager: without lcd . user interface: both . marketing: no actually uh to make it with lcd you make more efforts . so i there is high innovativeness included if you make it with lcd y industrial designer: yeah . marketing: then when it is without lcd there is not much innovativeness . user interface: mm . project manager: uh no innovative yeah . user interface: uh uh uh there w there was a there was a issue here is that what are what is the display on the lcd ? marketing: so we ca n't go project manager: industrial designer: talk about user interface: we have n't really uh determined what are actually actually project manager: marketing: i mean that what you are sayin that 's what the design user interface: it 's good to have a lcd but what are we gon na display on a lcd ? industrial designer: marketing: no it 's like this , project manager: marketing: i mean on the lcd , according to what i understand from your model is , you have a joystick here , and you have lcd , you just press your joystick , you get here a programme . project manager: so let 's remove it . user interface: yeah ? yeah . yeah but industrial designer: yeah project manager: but industrial designer: but you have the same programme on the tv screen . marketing: uh then user interface: yes exactly . project manager: this is the problem . marketing: no on the tv you do n't it does n't display on the tv now . industrial designer: if you have the lcd , but if n marketing: lcd ? then uh there is no meaning in having it on the tv . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: or then again you have a channels , volume and all the stuff and what a user interface: but you can not display all on a lcd . marketing: i mean that depends upon your design , so user interface: anyway for for the users who who who opt for lcd we 'll give them the give them the lcd , marketing: i mean user interface: we give what the customer uh wants , right . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: marketing: so without lcd you want to put it fi the same level of innovativeness ? and which do you recommend e easy to use , with lcd or without lcd ? user interface: industrial designer: well i think both are really easy to use because there are few button buttons , user interface: yeah industrial designer: and uh well t p the menu are clear , well-organised , so user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: well with little knowing of the technology you can you can easily use the product user interface: industrial designer: so i will give a six for the easy to use . user interface: yeah i think project manager: no it 's just if i i see the the f the rate i think it 's better to do it without lcd . user interface: sorry . project manager: because that 's with lcd just will increase the price , marketing: yeah . project manager: and i thi i they have the same rate so without lcd it will be user interface: yeah . marketing: or we can just go back to the previous slide uh where we ha we have a few updates . so i mean in the product design you could just amend it to make some few changes user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: according to fruit and vegetable or a spongy touch user interface: yeah . marketing: without lcd and without speech recognition . even then our product is going to be very good . industrial designer: yeah , it 's cheaper to produce . marketing: yeah . user interface: mm . s industrial designer: and uh if the the well if we have less technology we have more liberty to uh for the shape and uh things like that so marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: yeah . i have another thing to say about the easy to use aspect . i think the easy to use uh aspect is different for different people . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: for the young generation easy to use may be very complicated industrial designer: yep . user interface: because uh they w they wants lot of controls with lots of buttons . for kids they want simply the s similarit for the old people they want simplicity , marketing: yeah yeah that 's right . user interface: so that 's why we have the parental module . uh we can ha have build a more complex design if if they want it , but but uh what i 'm trying to say here is that the um we have different sets of buttons for different kinds of people . so in terms of easy to use i think it 's very user customisable . user customisation is very important yeah . yeah industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so industrial designer: six . marketing: so without lcd i just take it five ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: w uh marketing: or you want it to be six ? user interface: i think it 's the same . industrial designer: um six . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes as you say , with better uh project manager: without lcd . marketing: s s oh i think it 's better to have this without lcd . industrial designer: yeah . and to improve the the look . marketing: as our programme manager s pro project manager says that without lcd it is going to reduce the cost also , user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: and it 's going to be much simpler to use . industrial designer: yes and to give us more liberty to have a fancy look so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so let 's go back to our laboratory and user interface: to improve on the design . project manager: what a what what about the sys speech recognition ? marketing: so . project manager: what about the integration of speech recognition ? user interface: huh ? the speech recogniser is a add-on module . right ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that 's going to be an optional . user interface: yeah . marketing: if somebody wants to buy it they can have it , otherwise no . industrial designer: project manager: ah so it 's optional with the okay . marketing: it 's an optional . industrial designer: it 's optional yeah , since well according to this study uh people more likes more to have a spongy uh remote control than project manager: i think it will be i think i user interface: marketing: yeah . project manager: i think it will be better if we have all these modules in the same remote control , because maybe parents will lose these uh marketing: yeah , but i mean if you have an add-ons , the kids may just uh hide the parental module project manager: yeah . or ma yeah . marketing: and so that their parents ca n't use it . project manager: or maybe parents they can for forget where they put it or , industrial designer: project manager: so mayb better if you have all this in the same marketing: in the same set , yeah , project manager: marketing: and and individual buttons to make them work . project manager: yeah . user interface: the problem is if i we are bla if a customer wants a certain component , and does n't want the parental control because it 's a couple who do not have children when you sell the product in the market you could meet any kind of people , and not all people will need all the functionalities we propose to them . so we might lose the customer because of this . i do n't know , project manager: so you mean that even if these modules will be will be functional uh will be optional . user interface: what do you think uh ? yes exa what do you think , i do n't know . you are marketing manag . project manager: uh marketing: i mean how to how to how to make a marketing survey that uh how many married couple or how many couples have a tv user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: or to the number or singles who have a television . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so based on that i think user interface: yeah . but the the question is n does those modularity increase the production cost or decrease the production cost ? project manager: i think it inc increase . industrial designer: well you can if you had uh something li project manager: i think it i increases . industrial designer: oh no , project manager: industrial designer: because if you if you add uh something well yeah maybe because it 's three different pieces uh to to to build but project manager: hmm . marketing: but you can make it on a single p_c_ with three different options . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah user interface: industrial designer: it 's i think it 's cheaper if you if you already built the all the functionalities um on the same module , but uh user interface: mm . mm . yeah . marketing: on the same p_c_b_ user interface: well well the other aspect is that if in the when they have the ar existing product you you gon na maintain the the you 're gon na keep the same customer , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah yeah . user interface: because the same customer will come back to buy other add-ons . marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: so so marketing: i mean you could just provide with an optional . user interface: yeah i i so if do n't do n't buy now they can buy i in the future . so in in that way you 're actually keeping the cus the same customer , attracting them to come back in again and again . industrial designer: marketing: so it 's something like a microsoft product update . project manager: and and we we we we we we do n't want that . industrial designer: user interface: we 're not trying to follow the microsoft and we do n't want to the m project manager: marketing: updates and we sell it . we make updates and sell it . industrial designer: user interface: yeah well if the buyers can be up the th would be can be upgraded , it would be a good thing right ? project manager: industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah , it depends on the v production . marketing: and uh what 's the idea about uh the shape of the remote controls ? industrial designer: well so marketing: uh can they be made into a fruit and vegetable types ? industrial designer: yeah yeah marketing: do you require different types of p_c_b_s and industrial designer: i think we are yeah but we are also the um well the components will have to change because uh we have to deal with the shape and um but i do n't think it will uh increase the cost too much so user interface: mm . marketing: or uh it could be like this the p_c_b_ would be the same for all , but only the exterior uh shape is different o for all . user interface: mm . industrial designer: uh well but it 's a bit complicated to if if if you need machines to different machines to um ah well user interface: yeah . what we can change is to propose the customers with skins . for example the i the mobile phones nowaday , they sell different kinds of skin marketing: yeah , yeah that 's right . user interface: and then people just feel that oh i have a new skin and looks better . industrial designer: yeah yeah we can have the same global shape user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and then uh add on skins and with with this uh tex spongy texture uh things like that . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: yeah . yeah you can pl in what material would that be in uh ? industrial designer: sponge . marketing: i think you need to look into the material . user interface: yeah or furry like a pet dog kind of thing . industrial designer: marketing: yeah yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so industrial designer: so we finished the prototype uh presentation if you have uh something else to say . user interface: marketing: i think the project manager would be interested to look about the financial issues in making these models . project manager: project evaluation project satisfaction , for example . i do n't know , we have to ask these question . we have to give answers so marketing: user interface: i suppose that you this criteria , is it ? project manager: project evaluation . user interface: room for creativity . this room is a bit small , but industrial designer: project manager: user interface: but i think it 's okay for us to work with . marketing: i feel it 's fine , we know we do n't need uh i think it 's okay . user interface: yeah mm . industrial designer: that was good . marketing: this is fine for making a presentat for project presentations . user interface: mm . yeah anyway we have the laboratory nearby to build our modules so it 's okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and the leadership was excellent . project manager: yeah i think so . industrial designer: user interface: good job good job . industrial designer: fine yes uh project manager: he gave you the liberty to talk as you wants . marketing: yeah that 's right . yeah that 's right . project manager: uh the teamwork was very very good . i was really i am very satisfying to work with with you . industrial designer: very democratic . user interface: industrial designer: thank you . marketing: user interface: thank you . project manager: oh . industrial designer: alright . user interface: alright . marketing: and new ideas found . any new ideas to make these presentations more interactive and more interesting ? user interface: mm . industrial designer: come up with new product . project manager: less fancy . marketing: i mean uh what type of product would you think could we make this more interesting ? user interface: mm we i i know something , we need more cakes , more biscuits on the table while we have meetings . industrial designer: yeah and also more well uh more seriously i think it 's it 's a good idea to have uh clear clear points whenever we do a meeting marketing: user interface: mm . industrial designer: uh prior to the meeting to have uh well a list with the points who will be discussed or things like that , but i think it 's alright . we achieved uh project goal i think . marketing: yeah project manager: de marketing: that is within the budget . project manager: user interface: mm . industrial designer: it 's w yes , more or less . marketing: and the evaluation was project manager: without without lcd , without speech recognition , it will be simple . marketing: yeah that 's right . industrial designer: yeah but user interface: industrial designer: alright . so . marketing: and the next is celebration . industrial designer: so uh coffee machine . marketing: so project manager: yeah free free coffee user interface: alright then , we finished ? industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah thank you for your work and marketing: yeah thank you , thank you very much . user interface: thank you very much .

marketing made evaluation criteria . the first thing was fancy look and feel , the second was innovativeness , the third was easy to use . then marketing asked industrial designer and user interface to give scores towards two versions of the prototype according to the scale . both industrial designer and user interface gave three or four points to look and feel , six points to innovativeness and also six points to easy to use . the team decided to make the remote control without lcd and to improve the design to make it fancy . they would have all the functions in the same set , but some functions , like speech recognition , would be optional . the team would look into the shape and material of the set .

why did the team agree to have all functions in the same set in the evaluation of two versions and further discussion ? </s> industrial designer: project manager: so in last meeting we have discussed the conceptual design and we asked you to prepare a prototype for the for the remote control . user interface: okay . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: so . so let 's see the what did you prepare . user interface: yeah , so can you go out to the shared folder ? mm the shared folder . project manager: sh share folder for th your presentation ? user interface: yes . we have a presentation . project manager: because i have here industrial designer: user interface: uh so i got the participant uh three . w uh . three . it 's the final design , yeah . project manager: okay just one . industrial designer: user interface: s so so i discussed with guillaume . industrial designer: mm . yeah . user interface: right . and uh so we have and we we are both agreed on some two versions of the prototypes , because we were no not decided whether we wanted to have an lcd or not because it 's too expensive . so we come up with two versions . one with and one without lcds . um but both comes with a charger and then detachable and uh or control module . and detachable big buttons for all people um . so . industrial designer: s okay so i 'll show you the the two prototypes . here we have the first one with the beautiful uh lcd um display . you you can s here . and you can uh just um browse into the the navigation menu by uh joystick joystick-like uh button . user interface: mm . industrial designer: you can uh choose the direction and if you just push on it it 's considered like a enter function . user interface: mm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: you have on the mm on the side here the microphone for the for the speech recognition system here . user interface: industrial designer: and here the the switch that control if you want project manager: why you why you you put it in the the side ? industrial designer: well i i i think uh it 's the project manager: it 's not a good place maybe . industrial designer: yeah but user interface: no i i it 's the all around camer uh microphone is n't it . the the microphone picks up the speeches from anywhere . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: is it an only a single mic or a microphone array ? industrial designer: well so it 's a microphone array . user interface: project manager: oh it 's very costly , microphone array . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no user interface: yeah industrial designer: it 's just a single microphone , and you i i think uh we we put it here because i think when you when you are browsing your lcd you will be close to user interface: mm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: well it 's better to to to place it here th than here , for instance . user interface: yeah yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: and here is a little switch that control if you want the the speaker uh recognition system to um to be on or off . and uh so this remote control comes up with its charger . project manager: how much does it cost this one ? industrial designer: well this this prototype is um made for about uh well fi fi fifteen fifteen dollars user interface: for the project manager: fifteen dollars ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: fifteen dollars , project manager: ah it 's above it 's above the budget . industrial designer: but uh well it 's not it 's not uh yeah , but uh it 's just a prototype and if we uh if we optimises the um the uh voila . marketing: the cost would be le reduced . industrial designer: yeah the and the the production costs we we can achieve uh about ten dollars . user interface: mm . hmm . project manager: how many b battery is there ? industrial designer: how many , excuse me ? project manager: battery . industrial designer: well uh f battery , we use uh about uh user interface: is it n the two a_a_s batteries in it . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: a_a_ rechargeable batteries . industrial designer: rechargeable of course , user interface: yeah rechargeable batteries . industrial designer: because we have the charger . user interface: we have the charger so it 's no problem . industrial designer: yeah and you just project manager: so one one battery ? industrial designer: on uh yeah one battery . marketing: is that two or one ? user interface: project manager: it 's kinetic reserve . user interface: actually uh it 's a flexible thing . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: you just n uh marketing: now what is the whole day rating for that ? industrial designer: the excuse me ? marketing: whole day 's rating . user interface: marketing: what type of battery ? industrial designer: oh yeah it 's just a r uh simple battery a rechargeable uh user interface: yeah yeah . industrial designer: if you uh like it 's exist . marketing: something like a two a_ , a_ three size batteries ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so and if you want to charge the battery you just put the remote control like that to plug in the the charger user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and uh leave it uh alone , it 's alright . user interface: mm . at uh yeah . industrial designer: then the next time you pick it , oh project manager: industrial designer: it works . user interface: i forgot to tell you there is only a single button there , b this button industrial designer: yeah just explain the button uh norman . user interface: yeah alright . this button is like the mouse is like a joystick , industrial designer: user interface: you can move in three hundred and sixty degrees of direction so you can make a turn and it the additi functions associated to all the actions you ma you have a click you have a double click all in a single button . project manager: mm . industrial designer: user interface: you can move up , down , left , right , or you can do a swing . so a swing to the left , a swing to the right defines other functions . so even though it 's a single button , but it is pretty s flexible because of the three hundred and sixty degree movement . marketing: and the lcd is this one , on the remote ? user interface: yeah . this is the version y that comes with lcd . industrial designer: yep . marketing: yeah . user interface: here i present another version without the lcd . industrial designer: project manager: i think it 's not a good idea because after maybe one or two months of function is getting destroyed . user interface: mm . project manager: if you user interface: uh okay this is new prototype uh . project manager: industrial designer: yeah it 's project manager: industrial designer: so we have the the second version also with the different uh button configuration . the second version is also simpler , we d uh we had just uh i have to put the microphone also . user interface: yeah yeah . marketing: industrial designer: so basically th it 's the same uh marketing: uh-huh and also the switch . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: basically it 's the same uh things uh uh as uh i presented before . but here we have uh we have uh four buttons for navigation . press one button uh acting as a a enter button . user interface: mm . industrial designer: so um yeah according to what you said it 's more robust to the user . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh it 's also cheaper to produce . we can produce uh such remote control for about uh four dollars . project manager: no four dollars , it 's good . user interface: marketing: and i think you forgot a point here to have an button to find the charger , user interface: oh no marketing: because that 's a major that 's a user interface: th actually th we 'll come to that point in our industrial designer: yeah it 's it 's it 's embed in the uh speech recognition system . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay industrial designer: so marketing: and if you disable speech recognition system then ? user interface: w w i 'll i 'll come to that point later on . industrial designer: so norman will explain to you . marketing: mm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm . project manager: and we will we will serve the charger with this ? user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah yeah of course mm . user interface: th they either these with the uh the the charger any project manager: with the remote control . user interface: in either versions you they they ha they use the same charger yeah . project manager: okay so the price of the charger included in the user interface: uh it 's a standard module so you should get it for a cheap price uh . project manager: industrial designer: thank thank you . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and so mm-hmm . user interface: it 's that same charger that you can use for the hand-phone but uh again depends on the types . i think we have to investigate more on that , but project manager: the price should be below twelve and a half euro . user interface: yeah . yeah project manager: well that 's so user interface: but as the marketing manager says , people is willing to people are willing to pay more for good design . project manager: we have we have just marketing: yeah people are willing to pay more , user interface: industrial designer: marketing: but the company is not willing to invest more at the moment . project manager: the price of selling is twenty five euros . user interface: yeah . yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: and the price of production user interface: industrial designer: alright please uh go on norman with the special features . marketing: or uh user interface: yeah we 'll we 'll come up to that , the the the thing that makes this the controller cheap is that it is modular so you want more function you pay more . if you want less function i i if you want a reasonable price you pay for the functions that you add on to the system , marketing: user interface: so is uh modular . project manager: that 's for this basis function and if you want more you pay more . user interface: yeah yeah , project manager: user interface: for example the lcd , you can take it you can put it put it back in , or you can use the other one , marketing: something like customised . yeah project manager: yeah . user interface: or the speech recogniser with the microphone yeah yeah . industrial designer: user interface: you want a microphone to put in the speech recogniser you do n't wan you pay less for the system you see . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: mm hmm hmm hmm . project manager: user interface: so marketing: hmm okay . user interface: it 's pretty flexible in the yeah price . industrial designer: you also have the the the two other modules for the parental control project manager: but user interface: uh yeah yeah you should present that . industrial designer: that that you ca you can add up to the to your remote control marketing: and this is other one ? user interface: industrial designer: i i if you uh if you want to to have more more power on what you do , and uh which channel you want to choose and so on . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: h here is just the the the module for the kids and th if the parents want to watch tv , up they come up with their modules , marketing: mm hmm hmm hmm . industrial designer: they just plug in it user interface: yeah industrial designer: and they can have all the control they want here . user interface: mm . industrial designer: we also have this module for uh old people with big buttons , clearly labelled , user interface: hmm . industrial designer: and it acts like the previous one , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: you just plug in and it works . user interface: yeah marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: the i the idea the the conceptual idea is that simplicity and powerful . simplicity meaning that we have few buttons , powerful is that all the controls with the one you saw we saw earlier in the meetings with lots of buttons n but here you only have few buttons but you retain the mm the same powerful functionalities . but in addition with simplicity . so that 's the best idea , the cond that that 's our uh an innovation um uh i in this uh design here . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: okay now we come to other important features that i did not tell you . the first one is the speech recogniser , again it 's detachable or add-on . and then we also have security feature for example this here oop industrial designer: user interface: it 's very robust , it does n't break and the material , what 's the material again ? industrial designer: the titanium project manager: titanium . industrial designer: and so it 's very uh user interface: again uh and the battery life is uh is an is an endurable one , again because this is a_a_ batteries you can choose the types of battery you want . marketing: yeah that 's fine . user interface: lithium-ion may be a good one , but you can replace it with cheaper one , again you pay for what you get , and then um y the other p points are robust and misplacement reminder . so when you finish watching your tv and you the you t you turn off the tv , uh and then there 's this message coming out that uh please put that back to the charger , so so that 's the or is it marketing: okay . user interface: that 's the reminder part . yeah and um and it also use a programmable channel and vocabulary , so we did n't define the vocabulary so it 's up to the user to define marketing: mm hmm hmm hmm . user interface: so sorry ? project manager: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: and then uh because of the chil because children are using the device so we have also a a of tv programmes by genre , and this can be used by the adult or by the children . so instead of choosing the channel you are choosing the tv contents of the night . so it 's pretty powerful , and that 's that 's why the num buttons are reduced , because of this feature . yeah . and and for the materials that is cheap to produce i think uh it 's quite clear from yeah . project manager: user interface: and also like the and the fancy designs yeah . project manager: what what 's user interface: maybe we can improve more on the design but project manager: maybe yeah . industrial designer: project manager: what 's the price to p to produce ? user interface: uh this is the industrial designer: well so the price to produce for uh the simplest one , say we start from four dollars to produce such a device . project manager: with with with the charge ? industrial designer: uh it 's about it the without without the charger marketing: with the charger ? project manager: okay . user interface: yeah industrial designer: it 's about uh well two dollars to produce uh the microphone and speech recognition systems . user interface: industrial designer: two dollars for the uh for the add-on modules , and finally three dollars for the charger . so if you uh sum up uh everything wi with the lcd , which costs two dollar , you have two plus four plus four plus two plus two . user interface: yeah . project manager: we do n't have charger . marketing: i think we can use excel . industrial designer: it 's about project manager: we do n't have all the options . industrial designer: so the total cost if you if you want all the fuct functionalities will be about uh fifteen dollars . project manager: charger we do n't have charger here either . user interface: yeah . project manager: no it 's industrial designer: but it 's just if you want all functionalities . project manager: it 's below the the the budget . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: excuse me ? project manager: it 's below the bu the budget . user interface: marketing: yeah it 's a nice input project manager: we marketing: but we have an other inputs from the l public demands . project manager: marketing: i think we will just have a rough look and then we can make our statements , and we can finalise the product based on this discu user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i think we can just go to my presentation then . we can wind up . or we could uh come to some f uh final conclusions . user interface: marketing: so the marketing made an evaluation criteria and these were some of the findings , and uh in the market the people are not really interested with lcd , without lcd , with speech recognition interface , or without speech recognition interface , but most of the people what they are interested is first thing is , they want to have an fancy look and feel , it should be very fancy with colourful and uh very handy to hold . user interface: mm . marketing: and the second thing is it should be much more technologically innovative . user interface: marketing: of course in that we could put lcd or recognition to be more technologically innovative . and the third one is easy to use . user interface: mm . industrial designer: well i think that the technical in innovation is is in the product itself since we have n't yet a remote who are allowing to to choose interactively with the tv screen uh uh with just four buttons . marketing: okay and if we go to the next slide , here you can find these are the latest fashion updates , and so this in paris and milan they have detected this trends that the this year it 's going to be an year of fruit and vegetable , so people are really interested to see if they have an remote in the shape of the fruit or a vegetable , or whatever they like . user interface: spongy spongy . mm mm . marketing: so i think it should be much more customised to make a different uh shapes . user interface: mm mm . marketing: and the second thing is , and if the material , they really do not want it to be very hard , as in the case of very pl plastic or titanium , it should be somewhat spongy . user interface: but the the problem is that uh is it robust to mishandling ? industrial designer: okay . user interface: we have you should find a material that is robust at the same time spongy . industrial designer: a sponge . marketing: yeah so uh so finally we have these three criterias . user interface: spongy . marketing: one is fancy look , second is innovative , and third is easy to use . user interface: marketing: so these are the f uh three criteria on which we are going to build our remote . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so and we have an evaluation criteria for each one of these , industrial designer: hmm . marketing: say that we have a seven point scale , from one to seven , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: and for each of the product you could just give me the scale according to this . user interface: mm . industrial designer: marketing: so now you have with lcd and without lcd , user interface: mm . marketing: so on this scale , if it is true , if it is if it has a fancy look you could just tell me one , or if it is false , it does n't it looks uh it does n't look much fancy , then you could just tell me seven . so user interface: so marketing: we can make our study on this and user interface: so is the e evaluation depending on us or other users ? marketing: no no we have you have designed two products now , project manager: yeah . marketing: one is with lcd and without lcd . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: but who will give the scoring uh we ourself or or a third party ? project manager: you . marketing: according to you , no according to you designers , how will feel does it uh with lcd and without lcd ? user interface: mm . marketing: okay let us make this l_ and without lcd . on on this scale the lcd remote control . how do you look how does it look ? user interface: mm . mm . marketing: d is it very fancy or does n't look much fancy ? industrial designer: well it does n't look much fancy i 'll i 'll say three or four . marketing: and you both agree for that ? project manager: and you ? user interface: i think we can improve on the design . marketing: user interface: som someone um commented this is like a the stone age uh design . industrial designer: yeah . it 's it it project manager: user interface: um we have been focused all all this time on the on the technical aspect , functional aspect , but also the simplicity . industrial designer: technical aspects . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: as for the design maybe we c should hire a designer to help . marketing: so i take three on with lcd ? industrial designer: yeah a three . marketing: so without lcd how would you rate it ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: uh four . i think it 's it 's uh more easy to make f fancy things when it 's not complicated marketing: four . industrial designer: so removing the lcd um gives us a li more liberty to to have a fancy look . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: and in the sense of innovativeness , with lcd . industrial designer: well it 's it 's the same for both so i will give a five , six . user interface: mm . marketing: five with lcd and user interface: industrial designer: well five also uh norman please . user interface: yeah project manager: uh user interface: from the innovation aspect i feel that uh what is most innovative of our prototype compared to the existing prototypes that we saw l in the last meeting is that um the retrieval of tv programmes by content , because uh that is really innovative , and for now and another innovation we have is simplicity and simplicity , few buttons , we 've uh a lot of functionalities . industrial designer: with lot of functionalities . user interface: so that is uh that is uh for both th marketing: so without lcd ? user interface: our gi i think that the our our product is uh has the best in all well this is a biased judgement industrial designer: user interface: because we designed them . marketing: no no according to design aspect we want to know how would you feel the innovativeness ? user interface: yeah . uh the innovation is v is very high i think . project manager: for lcd . marketing: with lcd . user interface: both . marketing: and without lcd ? industrial designer: mm for both it 's the the same innovations . user interface: for both . it 's the same innovation . so maybe i can put six to seven . marketing: okay . industrial designer: six , let 's go for six . project manager: without lcd . user interface: both . marketing: no actually uh to make it with lcd you make more efforts . so i there is high innovativeness included if you make it with lcd y industrial designer: yeah . marketing: then when it is without lcd there is not much innovativeness . user interface: mm . project manager: uh no innovative yeah . user interface: uh uh uh there w there was a there was a issue here is that what are what is the display on the lcd ? marketing: so we ca n't go project manager: industrial designer: talk about user interface: we have n't really uh determined what are actually actually project manager: marketing: i mean that what you are sayin that 's what the design user interface: it 's good to have a lcd but what are we gon na display on a lcd ? industrial designer: marketing: no it 's like this , project manager: marketing: i mean on the lcd , according to what i understand from your model is , you have a joystick here , and you have lcd , you just press your joystick , you get here a programme . project manager: so let 's remove it . user interface: yeah ? yeah . yeah but industrial designer: yeah project manager: but industrial designer: but you have the same programme on the tv screen . marketing: uh then user interface: yes exactly . project manager: this is the problem . marketing: no on the tv you do n't it does n't display on the tv now . industrial designer: if you have the lcd , but if n marketing: lcd ? then uh there is no meaning in having it on the tv . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: or then again you have a channels , volume and all the stuff and what a user interface: but you can not display all on a lcd . marketing: i mean that depends upon your design , so user interface: anyway for for the users who who who opt for lcd we 'll give them the give them the lcd , marketing: i mean user interface: we give what the customer uh wants , right . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: marketing: so without lcd you want to put it fi the same level of innovativeness ? and which do you recommend e easy to use , with lcd or without lcd ? user interface: industrial designer: well i think both are really easy to use because there are few button buttons , user interface: yeah industrial designer: and uh well t p the menu are clear , well-organised , so user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: well with little knowing of the technology you can you can easily use the product user interface: industrial designer: so i will give a six for the easy to use . user interface: yeah i think project manager: no it 's just if i i see the the f the rate i think it 's better to do it without lcd . user interface: sorry . project manager: because that 's with lcd just will increase the price , marketing: yeah . project manager: and i thi i they have the same rate so without lcd it will be user interface: yeah . marketing: or we can just go back to the previous slide uh where we ha we have a few updates . so i mean in the product design you could just amend it to make some few changes user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: according to fruit and vegetable or a spongy touch user interface: yeah . marketing: without lcd and without speech recognition . even then our product is going to be very good . industrial designer: yeah , it 's cheaper to produce . marketing: yeah . user interface: mm . s industrial designer: and uh if the the well if we have less technology we have more liberty to uh for the shape and uh things like that so marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: yeah . i have another thing to say about the easy to use aspect . i think the easy to use uh aspect is different for different people . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: for the young generation easy to use may be very complicated industrial designer: yep . user interface: because uh they w they wants lot of controls with lots of buttons . for kids they want simply the s similarit for the old people they want simplicity , marketing: yeah yeah that 's right . user interface: so that 's why we have the parental module . uh we can ha have build a more complex design if if they want it , but but uh what i 'm trying to say here is that the um we have different sets of buttons for different kinds of people . so in terms of easy to use i think it 's very user customisable . user customisation is very important yeah . yeah industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so industrial designer: six . marketing: so without lcd i just take it five ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: w uh marketing: or you want it to be six ? user interface: i think it 's the same . industrial designer: um six . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes as you say , with better uh project manager: without lcd . marketing: s s oh i think it 's better to have this without lcd . industrial designer: yeah . and to improve the the look . marketing: as our programme manager s pro project manager says that without lcd it is going to reduce the cost also , user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: and it 's going to be much simpler to use . industrial designer: yes and to give us more liberty to have a fancy look so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so let 's go back to our laboratory and user interface: to improve on the design . project manager: what a what what about the sys speech recognition ? marketing: so . project manager: what about the integration of speech recognition ? user interface: huh ? the speech recogniser is a add-on module . right ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that 's going to be an optional . user interface: yeah . marketing: if somebody wants to buy it they can have it , otherwise no . industrial designer: project manager: ah so it 's optional with the okay . marketing: it 's an optional . industrial designer: it 's optional yeah , since well according to this study uh people more likes more to have a spongy uh remote control than project manager: i think it will be i think i user interface: marketing: yeah . project manager: i think it will be better if we have all these modules in the same remote control , because maybe parents will lose these uh marketing: yeah , but i mean if you have an add-ons , the kids may just uh hide the parental module project manager: yeah . or ma yeah . marketing: and so that their parents ca n't use it . project manager: or maybe parents they can for forget where they put it or , industrial designer: project manager: so mayb better if you have all this in the same marketing: in the same set , yeah , project manager: marketing: and and individual buttons to make them work . project manager: yeah . user interface: the problem is if i we are bla if a customer wants a certain component , and does n't want the parental control because it 's a couple who do not have children when you sell the product in the market you could meet any kind of people , and not all people will need all the functionalities we propose to them . so we might lose the customer because of this . i do n't know , project manager: so you mean that even if these modules will be will be functional uh will be optional . user interface: what do you think uh ? yes exa what do you think , i do n't know . you are marketing manag . project manager: uh marketing: i mean how to how to how to make a marketing survey that uh how many married couple or how many couples have a tv user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: or to the number or singles who have a television . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so based on that i think user interface: yeah . but the the question is n does those modularity increase the production cost or decrease the production cost ? project manager: i think it inc increase . industrial designer: well you can if you had uh something li project manager: i think it i increases . industrial designer: oh no , project manager: industrial designer: because if you if you add uh something well yeah maybe because it 's three different pieces uh to to to build but project manager: hmm . marketing: but you can make it on a single p_c_ with three different options . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah user interface: industrial designer: it 's i think it 's cheaper if you if you already built the all the functionalities um on the same module , but uh user interface: mm . mm . yeah . marketing: on the same p_c_b_ user interface: well well the other aspect is that if in the when they have the ar existing product you you gon na maintain the the you 're gon na keep the same customer , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah yeah . user interface: because the same customer will come back to buy other add-ons . marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: so so marketing: i mean you could just provide with an optional . user interface: yeah i i so if do n't do n't buy now they can buy i in the future . so in in that way you 're actually keeping the cus the same customer , attracting them to come back in again and again . industrial designer: marketing: so it 's something like a microsoft product update . project manager: and and we we we we we we do n't want that . industrial designer: user interface: we 're not trying to follow the microsoft and we do n't want to the m project manager: marketing: updates and we sell it . we make updates and sell it . industrial designer: user interface: yeah well if the buyers can be up the th would be can be upgraded , it would be a good thing right ? project manager: industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah , it depends on the v production . marketing: and uh what 's the idea about uh the shape of the remote controls ? industrial designer: well so marketing: uh can they be made into a fruit and vegetable types ? industrial designer: yeah yeah marketing: do you require different types of p_c_b_s and industrial designer: i think we are yeah but we are also the um well the components will have to change because uh we have to deal with the shape and um but i do n't think it will uh increase the cost too much so user interface: mm . marketing: or uh it could be like this the p_c_b_ would be the same for all , but only the exterior uh shape is different o for all . user interface: mm . industrial designer: uh well but it 's a bit complicated to if if if you need machines to different machines to um ah well user interface: yeah . what we can change is to propose the customers with skins . for example the i the mobile phones nowaday , they sell different kinds of skin marketing: yeah , yeah that 's right . user interface: and then people just feel that oh i have a new skin and looks better . industrial designer: yeah yeah we can have the same global shape user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and then uh add on skins and with with this uh tex spongy texture uh things like that . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: yeah . yeah you can pl in what material would that be in uh ? industrial designer: sponge . marketing: i think you need to look into the material . user interface: yeah or furry like a pet dog kind of thing . industrial designer: marketing: yeah yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so industrial designer: so we finished the prototype uh presentation if you have uh something else to say . user interface: marketing: i think the project manager would be interested to look about the financial issues in making these models . project manager: project evaluation project satisfaction , for example . i do n't know , we have to ask these question . we have to give answers so marketing: user interface: i suppose that you this criteria , is it ? project manager: project evaluation . user interface: room for creativity . this room is a bit small , but industrial designer: project manager: user interface: but i think it 's okay for us to work with . marketing: i feel it 's fine , we know we do n't need uh i think it 's okay . user interface: yeah mm . industrial designer: that was good . marketing: this is fine for making a presentat for project presentations . user interface: mm . yeah anyway we have the laboratory nearby to build our modules so it 's okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and the leadership was excellent . project manager: yeah i think so . industrial designer: user interface: good job good job . industrial designer: fine yes uh project manager: he gave you the liberty to talk as you wants . marketing: yeah that 's right . yeah that 's right . project manager: uh the teamwork was very very good . i was really i am very satisfying to work with with you . industrial designer: very democratic . user interface: industrial designer: thank you . marketing: user interface: thank you . project manager: oh . industrial designer: alright . user interface: alright . marketing: and new ideas found . any new ideas to make these presentations more interactive and more interesting ? user interface: mm . industrial designer: come up with new product . project manager: less fancy . marketing: i mean uh what type of product would you think could we make this more interesting ? user interface: mm we i i know something , we need more cakes , more biscuits on the table while we have meetings . industrial designer: yeah and also more well uh more seriously i think it 's it 's a good idea to have uh clear clear points whenever we do a meeting marketing: user interface: mm . industrial designer: uh prior to the meeting to have uh well a list with the points who will be discussed or things like that , but i think it 's alright . we achieved uh project goal i think . marketing: yeah project manager: de marketing: that is within the budget . project manager: user interface: mm . industrial designer: it 's w yes , more or less . marketing: and the evaluation was project manager: without without lcd , without speech recognition , it will be simple . marketing: yeah that 's right . industrial designer: yeah but user interface: industrial designer: alright . so . marketing: and the next is celebration . industrial designer: so uh coffee machine . marketing: so project manager: yeah free free coffee user interface: alright then , we finished ? industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah thank you for your work and marketing: yeah thank you , thank you very much . user interface: thank you very much .

if one remote control had a children module and another one had not , maybe parents would easily lose the one with children module . those modularities increased the production cost , so having all functions in the same set could be cheaper .

what did the team say about the shape of the remote control when talking about the evaluation of two versions and further discussion ? </s> industrial designer: project manager: so in last meeting we have discussed the conceptual design and we asked you to prepare a prototype for the for the remote control . user interface: okay . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: so . so let 's see the what did you prepare . user interface: yeah , so can you go out to the shared folder ? mm the shared folder . project manager: sh share folder for th your presentation ? user interface: yes . we have a presentation . project manager: because i have here industrial designer: user interface: uh so i got the participant uh three . w uh . three . it 's the final design , yeah . project manager: okay just one . industrial designer: user interface: s so so i discussed with guillaume . industrial designer: mm . yeah . user interface: right . and uh so we have and we we are both agreed on some two versions of the prototypes , because we were no not decided whether we wanted to have an lcd or not because it 's too expensive . so we come up with two versions . one with and one without lcds . um but both comes with a charger and then detachable and uh or control module . and detachable big buttons for all people um . so . industrial designer: s okay so i 'll show you the the two prototypes . here we have the first one with the beautiful uh lcd um display . you you can s here . and you can uh just um browse into the the navigation menu by uh joystick joystick-like uh button . user interface: mm . industrial designer: you can uh choose the direction and if you just push on it it 's considered like a enter function . user interface: mm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: you have on the mm on the side here the microphone for the for the speech recognition system here . user interface: industrial designer: and here the the switch that control if you want project manager: why you why you you put it in the the side ? industrial designer: well i i i think uh it 's the project manager: it 's not a good place maybe . industrial designer: yeah but user interface: no i i it 's the all around camer uh microphone is n't it . the the microphone picks up the speeches from anywhere . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: is it an only a single mic or a microphone array ? industrial designer: well so it 's a microphone array . user interface: project manager: oh it 's very costly , microphone array . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no user interface: yeah industrial designer: it 's just a single microphone , and you i i think uh we we put it here because i think when you when you are browsing your lcd you will be close to user interface: mm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: well it 's better to to to place it here th than here , for instance . user interface: yeah yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: and here is a little switch that control if you want the the speaker uh recognition system to um to be on or off . and uh so this remote control comes up with its charger . project manager: how much does it cost this one ? industrial designer: well this this prototype is um made for about uh well fi fi fifteen fifteen dollars user interface: for the project manager: fifteen dollars ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: fifteen dollars , project manager: ah it 's above it 's above the budget . industrial designer: but uh well it 's not it 's not uh yeah , but uh it 's just a prototype and if we uh if we optimises the um the uh voila . marketing: the cost would be le reduced . industrial designer: yeah the and the the production costs we we can achieve uh about ten dollars . user interface: mm . hmm . project manager: how many b battery is there ? industrial designer: how many , excuse me ? project manager: battery . industrial designer: well uh f battery , we use uh about uh user interface: is it n the two a_a_s batteries in it . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: a_a_ rechargeable batteries . industrial designer: rechargeable of course , user interface: yeah rechargeable batteries . industrial designer: because we have the charger . user interface: we have the charger so it 's no problem . industrial designer: yeah and you just project manager: so one one battery ? industrial designer: on uh yeah one battery . marketing: is that two or one ? user interface: project manager: it 's kinetic reserve . user interface: actually uh it 's a flexible thing . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: you just n uh marketing: now what is the whole day rating for that ? industrial designer: the excuse me ? marketing: whole day 's rating . user interface: marketing: what type of battery ? industrial designer: oh yeah it 's just a r uh simple battery a rechargeable uh user interface: yeah yeah . industrial designer: if you uh like it 's exist . marketing: something like a two a_ , a_ three size batteries ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so and if you want to charge the battery you just put the remote control like that to plug in the the charger user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and uh leave it uh alone , it 's alright . user interface: mm . at uh yeah . industrial designer: then the next time you pick it , oh project manager: industrial designer: it works . user interface: i forgot to tell you there is only a single button there , b this button industrial designer: yeah just explain the button uh norman . user interface: yeah alright . this button is like the mouse is like a joystick , industrial designer: user interface: you can move in three hundred and sixty degrees of direction so you can make a turn and it the additi functions associated to all the actions you ma you have a click you have a double click all in a single button . project manager: mm . industrial designer: user interface: you can move up , down , left , right , or you can do a swing . so a swing to the left , a swing to the right defines other functions . so even though it 's a single button , but it is pretty s flexible because of the three hundred and sixty degree movement . marketing: and the lcd is this one , on the remote ? user interface: yeah . this is the version y that comes with lcd . industrial designer: yep . marketing: yeah . user interface: here i present another version without the lcd . industrial designer: project manager: i think it 's not a good idea because after maybe one or two months of function is getting destroyed . user interface: mm . project manager: if you user interface: uh okay this is new prototype uh . project manager: industrial designer: yeah it 's project manager: industrial designer: so we have the the second version also with the different uh button configuration . the second version is also simpler , we d uh we had just uh i have to put the microphone also . user interface: yeah yeah . marketing: industrial designer: so basically th it 's the same uh marketing: uh-huh and also the switch . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: basically it 's the same uh things uh uh as uh i presented before . but here we have uh we have uh four buttons for navigation . press one button uh acting as a a enter button . user interface: mm . industrial designer: so um yeah according to what you said it 's more robust to the user . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh it 's also cheaper to produce . we can produce uh such remote control for about uh four dollars . project manager: no four dollars , it 's good . user interface: marketing: and i think you forgot a point here to have an button to find the charger , user interface: oh no marketing: because that 's a major that 's a user interface: th actually th we 'll come to that point in our industrial designer: yeah it 's it 's it 's embed in the uh speech recognition system . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay industrial designer: so marketing: and if you disable speech recognition system then ? user interface: w w i 'll i 'll come to that point later on . industrial designer: so norman will explain to you . marketing: mm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm . project manager: and we will we will serve the charger with this ? user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah yeah of course mm . user interface: th they either these with the uh the the charger any project manager: with the remote control . user interface: in either versions you they they ha they use the same charger yeah . project manager: okay so the price of the charger included in the user interface: uh it 's a standard module so you should get it for a cheap price uh . project manager: industrial designer: thank thank you . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and so mm-hmm . user interface: it 's that same charger that you can use for the hand-phone but uh again depends on the types . i think we have to investigate more on that , but project manager: the price should be below twelve and a half euro . user interface: yeah . yeah project manager: well that 's so user interface: but as the marketing manager says , people is willing to people are willing to pay more for good design . project manager: we have we have just marketing: yeah people are willing to pay more , user interface: industrial designer: marketing: but the company is not willing to invest more at the moment . project manager: the price of selling is twenty five euros . user interface: yeah . yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: and the price of production user interface: industrial designer: alright please uh go on norman with the special features . marketing: or uh user interface: yeah we 'll we 'll come up to that , the the the thing that makes this the controller cheap is that it is modular so you want more function you pay more . if you want less function i i if you want a reasonable price you pay for the functions that you add on to the system , marketing: user interface: so is uh modular . project manager: that 's for this basis function and if you want more you pay more . user interface: yeah yeah , project manager: user interface: for example the lcd , you can take it you can put it put it back in , or you can use the other one , marketing: something like customised . yeah project manager: yeah . user interface: or the speech recogniser with the microphone yeah yeah . industrial designer: user interface: you want a microphone to put in the speech recogniser you do n't wan you pay less for the system you see . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: mm hmm hmm hmm . project manager: user interface: so marketing: hmm okay . user interface: it 's pretty flexible in the yeah price . industrial designer: you also have the the the two other modules for the parental control project manager: but user interface: uh yeah yeah you should present that . industrial designer: that that you ca you can add up to the to your remote control marketing: and this is other one ? user interface: industrial designer: i i if you uh if you want to to have more more power on what you do , and uh which channel you want to choose and so on . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: h here is just the the the module for the kids and th if the parents want to watch tv , up they come up with their modules , marketing: mm hmm hmm hmm . industrial designer: they just plug in it user interface: yeah industrial designer: and they can have all the control they want here . user interface: mm . industrial designer: we also have this module for uh old people with big buttons , clearly labelled , user interface: hmm . industrial designer: and it acts like the previous one , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: you just plug in and it works . user interface: yeah marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: the i the idea the the conceptual idea is that simplicity and powerful . simplicity meaning that we have few buttons , powerful is that all the controls with the one you saw we saw earlier in the meetings with lots of buttons n but here you only have few buttons but you retain the mm the same powerful functionalities . but in addition with simplicity . so that 's the best idea , the cond that that 's our uh an innovation um uh i in this uh design here . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: okay now we come to other important features that i did not tell you . the first one is the speech recogniser , again it 's detachable or add-on . and then we also have security feature for example this here oop industrial designer: user interface: it 's very robust , it does n't break and the material , what 's the material again ? industrial designer: the titanium project manager: titanium . industrial designer: and so it 's very uh user interface: again uh and the battery life is uh is an is an endurable one , again because this is a_a_ batteries you can choose the types of battery you want . marketing: yeah that 's fine . user interface: lithium-ion may be a good one , but you can replace it with cheaper one , again you pay for what you get , and then um y the other p points are robust and misplacement reminder . so when you finish watching your tv and you the you t you turn off the tv , uh and then there 's this message coming out that uh please put that back to the charger , so so that 's the or is it marketing: okay . user interface: that 's the reminder part . yeah and um and it also use a programmable channel and vocabulary , so we did n't define the vocabulary so it 's up to the user to define marketing: mm hmm hmm hmm . user interface: so sorry ? project manager: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: and then uh because of the chil because children are using the device so we have also a a of tv programmes by genre , and this can be used by the adult or by the children . so instead of choosing the channel you are choosing the tv contents of the night . so it 's pretty powerful , and that 's that 's why the num buttons are reduced , because of this feature . yeah . and and for the materials that is cheap to produce i think uh it 's quite clear from yeah . project manager: user interface: and also like the and the fancy designs yeah . project manager: what what 's user interface: maybe we can improve more on the design but project manager: maybe yeah . industrial designer: project manager: what 's the price to p to produce ? user interface: uh this is the industrial designer: well so the price to produce for uh the simplest one , say we start from four dollars to produce such a device . project manager: with with with the charge ? industrial designer: uh it 's about it the without without the charger marketing: with the charger ? project manager: okay . user interface: yeah industrial designer: it 's about uh well two dollars to produce uh the microphone and speech recognition systems . user interface: industrial designer: two dollars for the uh for the add-on modules , and finally three dollars for the charger . so if you uh sum up uh everything wi with the lcd , which costs two dollar , you have two plus four plus four plus two plus two . user interface: yeah . project manager: we do n't have charger . marketing: i think we can use excel . industrial designer: it 's about project manager: we do n't have all the options . industrial designer: so the total cost if you if you want all the fuct functionalities will be about uh fifteen dollars . project manager: charger we do n't have charger here either . user interface: yeah . project manager: no it 's industrial designer: but it 's just if you want all functionalities . project manager: it 's below the the the budget . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: excuse me ? project manager: it 's below the bu the budget . user interface: marketing: yeah it 's a nice input project manager: we marketing: but we have an other inputs from the l public demands . project manager: marketing: i think we will just have a rough look and then we can make our statements , and we can finalise the product based on this discu user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i think we can just go to my presentation then . we can wind up . or we could uh come to some f uh final conclusions . user interface: marketing: so the marketing made an evaluation criteria and these were some of the findings , and uh in the market the people are not really interested with lcd , without lcd , with speech recognition interface , or without speech recognition interface , but most of the people what they are interested is first thing is , they want to have an fancy look and feel , it should be very fancy with colourful and uh very handy to hold . user interface: mm . marketing: and the second thing is it should be much more technologically innovative . user interface: marketing: of course in that we could put lcd or recognition to be more technologically innovative . and the third one is easy to use . user interface: mm . industrial designer: well i think that the technical in innovation is is in the product itself since we have n't yet a remote who are allowing to to choose interactively with the tv screen uh uh with just four buttons . marketing: okay and if we go to the next slide , here you can find these are the latest fashion updates , and so this in paris and milan they have detected this trends that the this year it 's going to be an year of fruit and vegetable , so people are really interested to see if they have an remote in the shape of the fruit or a vegetable , or whatever they like . user interface: spongy spongy . mm mm . marketing: so i think it should be much more customised to make a different uh shapes . user interface: mm mm . marketing: and the second thing is , and if the material , they really do not want it to be very hard , as in the case of very pl plastic or titanium , it should be somewhat spongy . user interface: but the the problem is that uh is it robust to mishandling ? industrial designer: okay . user interface: we have you should find a material that is robust at the same time spongy . industrial designer: a sponge . marketing: yeah so uh so finally we have these three criterias . user interface: spongy . marketing: one is fancy look , second is innovative , and third is easy to use . user interface: marketing: so these are the f uh three criteria on which we are going to build our remote . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so and we have an evaluation criteria for each one of these , industrial designer: hmm . marketing: say that we have a seven point scale , from one to seven , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: and for each of the product you could just give me the scale according to this . user interface: mm . industrial designer: marketing: so now you have with lcd and without lcd , user interface: mm . marketing: so on this scale , if it is true , if it is if it has a fancy look you could just tell me one , or if it is false , it does n't it looks uh it does n't look much fancy , then you could just tell me seven . so user interface: so marketing: we can make our study on this and user interface: so is the e evaluation depending on us or other users ? marketing: no no we have you have designed two products now , project manager: yeah . marketing: one is with lcd and without lcd . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: but who will give the scoring uh we ourself or or a third party ? project manager: you . marketing: according to you , no according to you designers , how will feel does it uh with lcd and without lcd ? user interface: mm . marketing: okay let us make this l_ and without lcd . on on this scale the lcd remote control . how do you look how does it look ? user interface: mm . mm . marketing: d is it very fancy or does n't look much fancy ? industrial designer: well it does n't look much fancy i 'll i 'll say three or four . marketing: and you both agree for that ? project manager: and you ? user interface: i think we can improve on the design . marketing: user interface: som someone um commented this is like a the stone age uh design . industrial designer: yeah . it 's it it project manager: user interface: um we have been focused all all this time on the on the technical aspect , functional aspect , but also the simplicity . industrial designer: technical aspects . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: as for the design maybe we c should hire a designer to help . marketing: so i take three on with lcd ? industrial designer: yeah a three . marketing: so without lcd how would you rate it ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: uh four . i think it 's it 's uh more easy to make f fancy things when it 's not complicated marketing: four . industrial designer: so removing the lcd um gives us a li more liberty to to have a fancy look . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: and in the sense of innovativeness , with lcd . industrial designer: well it 's it 's the same for both so i will give a five , six . user interface: mm . marketing: five with lcd and user interface: industrial designer: well five also uh norman please . user interface: yeah project manager: uh user interface: from the innovation aspect i feel that uh what is most innovative of our prototype compared to the existing prototypes that we saw l in the last meeting is that um the retrieval of tv programmes by content , because uh that is really innovative , and for now and another innovation we have is simplicity and simplicity , few buttons , we 've uh a lot of functionalities . industrial designer: with lot of functionalities . user interface: so that is uh that is uh for both th marketing: so without lcd ? user interface: our gi i think that the our our product is uh has the best in all well this is a biased judgement industrial designer: user interface: because we designed them . marketing: no no according to design aspect we want to know how would you feel the innovativeness ? user interface: yeah . uh the innovation is v is very high i think . project manager: for lcd . marketing: with lcd . user interface: both . marketing: and without lcd ? industrial designer: mm for both it 's the the same innovations . user interface: for both . it 's the same innovation . so maybe i can put six to seven . marketing: okay . industrial designer: six , let 's go for six . project manager: without lcd . user interface: both . marketing: no actually uh to make it with lcd you make more efforts . so i there is high innovativeness included if you make it with lcd y industrial designer: yeah . marketing: then when it is without lcd there is not much innovativeness . user interface: mm . project manager: uh no innovative yeah . user interface: uh uh uh there w there was a there was a issue here is that what are what is the display on the lcd ? marketing: so we ca n't go project manager: industrial designer: talk about user interface: we have n't really uh determined what are actually actually project manager: marketing: i mean that what you are sayin that 's what the design user interface: it 's good to have a lcd but what are we gon na display on a lcd ? industrial designer: marketing: no it 's like this , project manager: marketing: i mean on the lcd , according to what i understand from your model is , you have a joystick here , and you have lcd , you just press your joystick , you get here a programme . project manager: so let 's remove it . user interface: yeah ? yeah . yeah but industrial designer: yeah project manager: but industrial designer: but you have the same programme on the tv screen . marketing: uh then user interface: yes exactly . project manager: this is the problem . marketing: no on the tv you do n't it does n't display on the tv now . industrial designer: if you have the lcd , but if n marketing: lcd ? then uh there is no meaning in having it on the tv . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: or then again you have a channels , volume and all the stuff and what a user interface: but you can not display all on a lcd . marketing: i mean that depends upon your design , so user interface: anyway for for the users who who who opt for lcd we 'll give them the give them the lcd , marketing: i mean user interface: we give what the customer uh wants , right . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: marketing: so without lcd you want to put it fi the same level of innovativeness ? and which do you recommend e easy to use , with lcd or without lcd ? user interface: industrial designer: well i think both are really easy to use because there are few button buttons , user interface: yeah industrial designer: and uh well t p the menu are clear , well-organised , so user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: well with little knowing of the technology you can you can easily use the product user interface: industrial designer: so i will give a six for the easy to use . user interface: yeah i think project manager: no it 's just if i i see the the f the rate i think it 's better to do it without lcd . user interface: sorry . project manager: because that 's with lcd just will increase the price , marketing: yeah . project manager: and i thi i they have the same rate so without lcd it will be user interface: yeah . marketing: or we can just go back to the previous slide uh where we ha we have a few updates . so i mean in the product design you could just amend it to make some few changes user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: according to fruit and vegetable or a spongy touch user interface: yeah . marketing: without lcd and without speech recognition . even then our product is going to be very good . industrial designer: yeah , it 's cheaper to produce . marketing: yeah . user interface: mm . s industrial designer: and uh if the the well if we have less technology we have more liberty to uh for the shape and uh things like that so marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: yeah . i have another thing to say about the easy to use aspect . i think the easy to use uh aspect is different for different people . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: for the young generation easy to use may be very complicated industrial designer: yep . user interface: because uh they w they wants lot of controls with lots of buttons . for kids they want simply the s similarit for the old people they want simplicity , marketing: yeah yeah that 's right . user interface: so that 's why we have the parental module . uh we can ha have build a more complex design if if they want it , but but uh what i 'm trying to say here is that the um we have different sets of buttons for different kinds of people . so in terms of easy to use i think it 's very user customisable . user customisation is very important yeah . yeah industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so industrial designer: six . marketing: so without lcd i just take it five ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: w uh marketing: or you want it to be six ? user interface: i think it 's the same . industrial designer: um six . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes as you say , with better uh project manager: without lcd . marketing: s s oh i think it 's better to have this without lcd . industrial designer: yeah . and to improve the the look . marketing: as our programme manager s pro project manager says that without lcd it is going to reduce the cost also , user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: and it 's going to be much simpler to use . industrial designer: yes and to give us more liberty to have a fancy look so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so let 's go back to our laboratory and user interface: to improve on the design . project manager: what a what what about the sys speech recognition ? marketing: so . project manager: what about the integration of speech recognition ? user interface: huh ? the speech recogniser is a add-on module . right ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that 's going to be an optional . user interface: yeah . marketing: if somebody wants to buy it they can have it , otherwise no . industrial designer: project manager: ah so it 's optional with the okay . marketing: it 's an optional . industrial designer: it 's optional yeah , since well according to this study uh people more likes more to have a spongy uh remote control than project manager: i think it will be i think i user interface: marketing: yeah . project manager: i think it will be better if we have all these modules in the same remote control , because maybe parents will lose these uh marketing: yeah , but i mean if you have an add-ons , the kids may just uh hide the parental module project manager: yeah . or ma yeah . marketing: and so that their parents ca n't use it . project manager: or maybe parents they can for forget where they put it or , industrial designer: project manager: so mayb better if you have all this in the same marketing: in the same set , yeah , project manager: marketing: and and individual buttons to make them work . project manager: yeah . user interface: the problem is if i we are bla if a customer wants a certain component , and does n't want the parental control because it 's a couple who do not have children when you sell the product in the market you could meet any kind of people , and not all people will need all the functionalities we propose to them . so we might lose the customer because of this . i do n't know , project manager: so you mean that even if these modules will be will be functional uh will be optional . user interface: what do you think uh ? yes exa what do you think , i do n't know . you are marketing manag . project manager: uh marketing: i mean how to how to how to make a marketing survey that uh how many married couple or how many couples have a tv user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: or to the number or singles who have a television . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so based on that i think user interface: yeah . but the the question is n does those modularity increase the production cost or decrease the production cost ? project manager: i think it inc increase . industrial designer: well you can if you had uh something li project manager: i think it i increases . industrial designer: oh no , project manager: industrial designer: because if you if you add uh something well yeah maybe because it 's three different pieces uh to to to build but project manager: hmm . marketing: but you can make it on a single p_c_ with three different options . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah user interface: industrial designer: it 's i think it 's cheaper if you if you already built the all the functionalities um on the same module , but uh user interface: mm . mm . yeah . marketing: on the same p_c_b_ user interface: well well the other aspect is that if in the when they have the ar existing product you you gon na maintain the the you 're gon na keep the same customer , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah yeah . user interface: because the same customer will come back to buy other add-ons . marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: so so marketing: i mean you could just provide with an optional . user interface: yeah i i so if do n't do n't buy now they can buy i in the future . so in in that way you 're actually keeping the cus the same customer , attracting them to come back in again and again . industrial designer: marketing: so it 's something like a microsoft product update . project manager: and and we we we we we we do n't want that . industrial designer: user interface: we 're not trying to follow the microsoft and we do n't want to the m project manager: marketing: updates and we sell it . we make updates and sell it . industrial designer: user interface: yeah well if the buyers can be up the th would be can be upgraded , it would be a good thing right ? project manager: industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah , it depends on the v production . marketing: and uh what 's the idea about uh the shape of the remote controls ? industrial designer: well so marketing: uh can they be made into a fruit and vegetable types ? industrial designer: yeah yeah marketing: do you require different types of p_c_b_s and industrial designer: i think we are yeah but we are also the um well the components will have to change because uh we have to deal with the shape and um but i do n't think it will uh increase the cost too much so user interface: mm . marketing: or uh it could be like this the p_c_b_ would be the same for all , but only the exterior uh shape is different o for all . user interface: mm . industrial designer: uh well but it 's a bit complicated to if if if you need machines to different machines to um ah well user interface: yeah . what we can change is to propose the customers with skins . for example the i the mobile phones nowaday , they sell different kinds of skin marketing: yeah , yeah that 's right . user interface: and then people just feel that oh i have a new skin and looks better . industrial designer: yeah yeah we can have the same global shape user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and then uh add on skins and with with this uh tex spongy texture uh things like that . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: yeah . yeah you can pl in what material would that be in uh ? industrial designer: sponge . marketing: i think you need to look into the material . user interface: yeah or furry like a pet dog kind of thing . industrial designer: marketing: yeah yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so industrial designer: so we finished the prototype uh presentation if you have uh something else to say . user interface: marketing: i think the project manager would be interested to look about the financial issues in making these models . project manager: project evaluation project satisfaction , for example . i do n't know , we have to ask these question . we have to give answers so marketing: user interface: i suppose that you this criteria , is it ? project manager: project evaluation . user interface: room for creativity . this room is a bit small , but industrial designer: project manager: user interface: but i think it 's okay for us to work with . marketing: i feel it 's fine , we know we do n't need uh i think it 's okay . user interface: yeah mm . industrial designer: that was good . marketing: this is fine for making a presentat for project presentations . user interface: mm . yeah anyway we have the laboratory nearby to build our modules so it 's okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and the leadership was excellent . project manager: yeah i think so . industrial designer: user interface: good job good job . industrial designer: fine yes uh project manager: he gave you the liberty to talk as you wants . marketing: yeah that 's right . yeah that 's right . project manager: uh the teamwork was very very good . i was really i am very satisfying to work with with you . industrial designer: very democratic . user interface: industrial designer: thank you . marketing: user interface: thank you . project manager: oh . industrial designer: alright . user interface: alright . marketing: and new ideas found . any new ideas to make these presentations more interactive and more interesting ? user interface: mm . industrial designer: come up with new product . project manager: less fancy . marketing: i mean uh what type of product would you think could we make this more interesting ? user interface: mm we i i know something , we need more cakes , more biscuits on the table while we have meetings . industrial designer: yeah and also more well uh more seriously i think it 's it 's a good idea to have uh clear clear points whenever we do a meeting marketing: user interface: mm . industrial designer: uh prior to the meeting to have uh well a list with the points who will be discussed or things like that , but i think it 's alright . we achieved uh project goal i think . marketing: yeah project manager: de marketing: that is within the budget . project manager: user interface: mm . industrial designer: it 's w yes , more or less . marketing: and the evaluation was project manager: without without lcd , without speech recognition , it will be simple . marketing: yeah that 's right . industrial designer: yeah but user interface: industrial designer: alright . so . marketing: and the next is celebration . industrial designer: so uh coffee machine . marketing: so project manager: yeah free free coffee user interface: alright then , we finished ? industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah thank you for your work and marketing: yeah thank you , thank you very much . user interface: thank you very much .

the remote control might be made into fruit or vegetable types . so the team might have to change some components , but it would not cost much . the pcb would be the same for all , but only the exterior shape was different for all . they could propose the customers with skins . the team would look into the material .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: good morning . sorry ? yeah , busy job . good morning . so oh , good morning everyone . user interface: good morning . industrial designer: good morning . project manager: i 'd uh like to welcome you to our first meeting . i 've prepared a little presentation . my name is and uh i hope you will introduce yourself uh in a few minutes , as will i . um i 'm the project manager of this project , and uh , well i will tell you on what actually is the project . this is uh the agenda for our first meeting . um this is the opening , then we will get i will hope we will get acquainted to each other . we 'll do a little tool training with these two things . we 'll take a look at the project plan . uh there will be time for discussion . actually we have to discuss because we have to create a product . and then we will close this session . um but first of all we i 'd like to uh introduce you to this room . um as you probably have noticed there are little black uh fields on the table . um you have to put your laptop exactly in that field so the little cameras can see your face . um there are cameras industrial designer: project manager: everywhere around the room especially here for your face , of course , and this is n't a pie , it 's a a set of microphones industrial designer: project manager: and there are microphones here also . but please uh do n't be afraid of them . user interface: project manager: they wo n't hurt you . um well uh user interface: well industrial designer: project manager: i said i 'm the project manager and uh i 'm hoping uh for a good project and uh i 'd like to hear uh who you are and what your functions are uh on this project . let 's start with the ladies . user interface: well uh i 'm uh and my uh function is user interface design , i think . industrial designer: user interface: so uh that 's me . industrial designer: okay , uh i 'm uh i 'm the industrial designer and i uh hope to uh look forward to uh a very uh pleasing uh end of this uh project . project manager: okay , so i . user interface: me too . marketing: my name 's . i 'm uh marketing expert . my job is in the company to promote company or promote products to the customers . so i also h hope we have a pleasant uh working with uh with each other . project manager: okay , well we have some expertise from uh different pieces of the of the company . user interface: project manager: that 's good . um well i said uh we 're working on a project and the aim for the project is to to create a to design a new remote control which uh has to be original , trendy and of course , user friendly . and uh i hope we have the expertise to create such a project such a product . um the way we hope to achieve that is uh the following methods . it consists of three phases , namely the functional design , conceptual design and detailed design . as you can see , all of these phases consists of two parts , namely individual work part and a meeting where we will discuss uh our work so far . okay . but first i will uh tell you something about the tools we have here . i already talked about the cameras and microphones , but they are not of uh much use to us . uh we will have to take advantage of these two things . they are smart boards . as you can see , you can give a presentation on them . and uh this one here is a white board . i will uh instruct you about that soon . um as you also noticed uh this presentation document is in our uh project folder and every document you put in this folder uh is uh it is possible to show that here in our meeting room . um and yeah there are available on both smart boards but i think we will uh mainly use this one for the documents in the shared folder . as you can see , this is the same tool bar uh as is located here . um the most functions uh we will use will be to to add a new page , um uh to go back and forward between pages , and of course uh to save it every now and then . um and this is the pen with which you can draw on the board , for instance like this if everything 's okay , user interface: project manager: but i first have to put it on the pen , you see i 'm new to it too . user interface: project manager: um and then you can write things like test or whatever you want . industrial designer: user interface: oh . project manager: as you can see you have to move it a little bit slow , it 's not such a fast board , it 's a smart board but also a slow board . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: uh but you can write things and of course you can also , when you click here , uh erase things , so we have uh est left . and um you can also delete an entire page , but we ask you not to do that . just simply create a new one and uh start all over because we want to save all the results . um does everyone understand this user interface: so we ca n't erase anything . project manager: nice application ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: well you can erase it with the eraser , but uh you should n't delete an entire page , but just create a new blank one . user interface: right . marketing: s project manager: i will delete this one now because we do n't use it yet . user interface: alright . project manager: but you can of course erase when you make a mistake , but do n't uh delete entire pages . and you can also um let 's see i think it 's here uh change the uh colour of your pen , for instance take a blue one and uh change the line width like to five . um that 's what you will need for our first exercise , because i 'm uh going to ask you to draw your favourite animal . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: it 's also to gets to know each other because um i 'm asking three things , uh for that uh drawing , industrial designer: okay . project manager: to do it on a blank sheet , with different colours and i just showed you how to pick a colour , and also with different pen widths which i also showed you . um and a favourite characteristic can be just uh one word . well i 'm not very good at drawing , but i will uh go first and um try to draw user interface: project manager: or maybe you should guess what i 'm drawing , eh . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: good . user interface: industrial designer: hmm . marketing: no . user interface: it 's a sheep . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: dinos industrial designer: seal , a seal . marketing: dinosaur . user interface: marketing: beaver . user interface: a beaver . industrial designer: a be project manager: well it uh user interface: it 's weird . project manager: could be everything . industrial designer: mm . with a tail and a mouth . project manager: maybe when i put on user interface: it has wings ? marketing: turtle . project manager: this thing it could be a turtle , or a snail , industrial designer: snail . user interface: well the snail does n't have legs . industrial designer: okay . project manager: but a turtle has . and those are slow . and i hope our project group will not be slow , industrial designer: project manager: but we will uh work to a good result industrial designer: project manager: and do it uh as fast as we can . okay , time for another animal . would you like to go next ? user interface: marketing: no problem . no problem . industrial designer: sure . user interface: oh right . marketing: mm . it was four months ? user interface: marketing: nice , okay . user interface: well . industrial designer: the hell . user interface: marketing: to make it a little bit easier . user interface: it 's a giraffe . industrial designer: make that cute . user interface: or a dinosaur . marketing: no , it 's a giraffe . 'kay . user interface: marketing: i think it 's easy to r uh to recognise as a giraffe . user interface: yes . giraffe . industrial designer: project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah , the favourite charis characteristic is that the long neck , it can reach everything . and i hope i can also reach a lot with this project . so that 's my favourite animal . project manager: okay . marketing: anything else you need to know ? project manager: could you write the words , uh underneath it ? or more words . marketing: oh , uh industrial designer: tall . user interface: marketing: tall . so , user interface: should i uh marketing: 'kay . user interface: alright . marketing: user interface: so i can draw , but uh uh . well . oh . industrial designer: b marketing: it 's a mouse . user interface: industrial designer: bunny rabbit . marketing: a bunny rabbit . user interface: oh wrong one . uh . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: well uh industrial designer: user interface: you can guess what it is , i hope . marketing: uh-huh . no problem . project manager: little rabbits . user interface: it 's a rabbit . industrial designer: user interface: and uh well uh it 's uh quick , i guess . that 's uh my uh favourite animal . project manager: okay , thank you . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and our final drawing . user interface: marketing: bob ross . user interface: a dolphin . project manager: industrial designer: okay , um . marketing: dolphin . industrial designer: uh i uh draw i i 've drawn a dolphin because of its intelligence . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: right . industrial designer: one of the most intelligent uh project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: animals in our world . user interface: well . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: yeah intelligent . user interface: with an e_ . project manager: industrial designer: i 've i 've uh user interface: industrial designer: eraser . project manager: user interface: you can try out the eraser now . project manager: industrial designer: pen . well not perfect , but okay . project manager: okay , well user interface: project manager: thank you very much . i can see we have some uh drawing talent uh in this group , industrial designer: user interface: not really . project manager: huh ? well , nice animals , nice words . sounds good . um back to business , back to the money part . um from the finance department i have learned that we are aiming for a selling price of twenty five euros . and we 're hoping for a aim of fifty million euros and uh we are hoping to achieve that uh by aiming for an international market . and the production cost will be twelve euro fifty max . okay , well it 's time uh for some discussion . i 've wrote down some examples here of what we can can speak about . uh what 's your experience with remote controls , um what kind of ideas do you have to design a new remote control , maybe for which market segments should we aim , or should we aim for all segments . uh well actually i 'd like to hand the word uh back to you . what 's your experience with remote control ? user interface: i always lose them . industrial designer: a lot of buttons . and you always lose them . marketing: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: a lot of buttons which you do n't use user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or who you do n't use marketing: complex . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: complex . user interface: industrial designer: not user friendly . user interface: search for the buttons , which one is which marketing: no . user interface: and uh industrial designer: marketing: no . industrial designer: marketing: boring . user interface: project manager: boring , it 's not fun to use a remote . industrial designer: marketing: no . industrial designer: mm . marketing: black , all black . user interface: well . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: black colours . marketing: so , yeah . project manager: well maybe we should try to make it fun . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: they use batteries and batteries uh and poor signal . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh . marketing: yeah . user interface: perhaps that you have a lot of road remotes r road con remote controls . marketing: the the angle you have to use . you had different remote controls for different devices . industrial designer: yeah , different remote controls , user interface: yes , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: perhaps you can integrate them or something . marketing: yes . industrial designer: uh for the use of different uh devices . user interface: yes . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: your stereo and your tv marketing: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: and uh . perhaps that 's an idea . marketing: yeah but then again you you still have a lot of buttons , user interface: yeah , that 's right . and which you do n't use . industrial designer: yeah marketing: so industrial designer: but you could uh i thin uh there 's a possibility to g uh to uh to put those buttons uh behind some uh kind of uh protection marketing: flap user interface: right . industrial designer: so that if y y you only get to see them when you need 'em . marketing: yeah . yeah , okay , that 's possible , industrial designer: that 's possible , so that you only get the marketing: but it 'll get very big the the remote control . user interface: yeah . you should just give it to . industrial designer: no n n no , just uh for example you got th uh the same size uh remote control you use everyday , but um the usual buttons such as uh um zapping uh as you call it in dutch . uh and the volume control uh are only the only possible buttons uh to use directly . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: changing channel . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or uh the numbers , of course . marketing: mm-hmm . numbers . industrial designer: but uh not uh the buttons used to search on the the channels on your television . marketing: on and off . industrial designer: you only use those uh the first time , or . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: so . uh . marketing: play , pause , stop . project manager: mm-hmm . so maybe a a minimalist design , the least uh possible amount uh of buttons . industrial designer: yeah , i think so , yeah . marketing: user interface: yes . but you should make sure that you have every button they need on it . because uh things for uh teletext , i dunno uh , w industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm , of course . industrial designer: yeah , uh teletext . marketing: user interface: what 's the name ? project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: think so . marketing: industrial designer: okay . project manager: so you do n't want to bother people with uh loads of buttons , but on the other hand they need many buttons marketing: no . project manager: so they do n't have to get out of their seat . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: but industrial designer: right . marketing: because i think a market will be all kind of people . elderly p el elderly , young people , so . user interface: but if if it 's if it 's international you should uh look in think in britain they have uh different things they can do with the tv , or so uh that you can choose what you want to see . i dunno if you should uh take that in consideration , or that you just should aim for the normal tvs industrial designer: uh . user interface: that uh industrial designer: yeah i i understand . marketing: yeah i think that 's the better one , user interface: and the b_b_c_ . marketing: because i think if you you 're going to target a lot of people and the whole world and only britain then i think the cost will uh rise higher than the twelve fifty , i think . industrial designer: no . user interface: yes . yeah , i do n't know if the they have that anywhere else , though . marketing: i think the aim is better to use uh the whole world and britain , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah , we can leave that . industrial designer: when i think of it uh marketing: not that much . industrial designer: i think the main idea uh of this remote remote control is uh to make it user friendly . so uh i think uh when p uh when uh the customers will buy this remote control , they already have uh the remote control which uh companies uh uh with uh the the standards uh remote control with which comes uh with the television . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . standard deliver . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh marketing: mm . industrial designer: it only has to have uh the most used buttons . you do n't have to integrate the buttons to search the channels on your television . user interface: well industrial designer: in those in that user interface: but marketing: no but user interface: but then you have to to find your other remote control if you want to search . marketing: yeah . yeah , th it it 's i think that 's not user interface: that 's not industrial designer: yeah but i but it is impossible to uh to accommodate uh accommodate uh all the buttons on the s on the difference different televisions sets on one remote control . it 's impossible . user interface: yeah , that 's right . marketing: yeah , okay . industrial designer: because uh for example sony television uh has the opportunity to s to make uh uh to make it possible for to see on one side of the screen uh teletext , and on the other side uh just n uh regular television . uh marketing: no . user interface: yeah that 's uh . marketing: i think n m n most televisions nowadays do this . industrial designer: yeah , but uh they do n't use the same signal , uh on remote control . user interface: well not everywhere . marketing: so i think numerals . industrial designer: because you ca n't use a panasonic uh remote control on a on a philips television . marketing: yeah , but then you have to choose the always with r universal remotes you have to choose the code . user interface: yeah , you can choose the code . industrial designer: okay . okay . okay . okay , marketing: you can use which which type of television you have . that 's no problem . but i think like the two pages on the same screen , like teletext and normal television , that 's that 's nowadays standard , i think . industrial designer: but uh i think that most people uh th uh will buy the remote control because because uh the first they lost the one they lost first one marketing: simplicity . industrial designer: or the first one is broken , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so uh uh perhaps they have a got a an older television , marketing: yeah , yeah . mm-hmm . industrial designer: so that option is not uh optional for those uh people . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah g available . user interface: but the people have a new television , marketing: true . user interface: and c if you look into the future , then they want will want the button , if their thing is broke . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so we should take that in consideration . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , well marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: any more ideas ? user interface: industrial designer: oh mm , no . project manager: no ? user interface: guess not . marketing: of course . industrial designer: things 'll come up . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , yeah well we have some time . let 's see what more i have to tell you . i do n't think there is much left . nope . we 're starting to close . um our next meeting uh will start well we 're a little bit early , but our next meeting will start in in thirty minutes . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: in the meantime uh there 's time for some uh individual actions . um , as you can see , the different roles have uh different tasks . and there 's a ping . user interface: project manager: is it my laptop ? marketing: yeah . project manager: yep . industrial designer: stop the meeting now . project manager: ah well user interface: yeah meeting will close in five minutes . project manager: that 's good , five minutes and uh the meeting 's over , uh right on schedule . industrial designer: okay . project manager: um the marketing expert will uh will take a look at the user requirement specification . the user interface designer will work out the technical functions design . and this was the interface designer ? or the interaction designer . user interface: hmm hmm . industrial designer: mm . project manager: or what was it , i_d_ ? user interface: no interface . industrial designer: no ? marketing: interface . project manager: interface designer , okay , first guess was right . uh will take a look at the the working design . industrial designer: no , user interface: no industrial designer: the industrial designer will take a look at the working design , user interface: the yeah . industrial designer: and the in uh usability interaction user interface: project manager: industrial designer , okay , industrial designer: yeah , okay . okay . project manager: sorry . let 's just use the acronyms . um and of course specific instructions uh will be sent to you uh through your personal coach . user interface: so so i should look at uh what you should be able to do with the remote , or uh , or how i do n't really project manager: uh well those instructions will be uh in the email you will receive uh shortly , i hope . user interface: right . alright . me too . project manager: and of course you have your own uh expertise . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: well uh that was what i had to say . marketing: uh-huh . project manager: uh are there any more questions ? industrial designer: okay . marketing: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: no ? okay well i think then we have to head uh back to our offices and uh start working . industrial designer: okay . marketing: i have one question . project manager: okay , one question ? industrial designer: oh . marketing: where does it says we have to make a remote , because i presumed she did n't know who . okay , no , no problem . project manager: okay user interface: industrial designer: no problem . okay . project manager: we 're still going . marketing: no problem . yeah . project manager: okay , well i expect everything will be much clearer with the instructions we will receive uh shortly . user interface: alright . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay well uh see you all in about thirty minutes , then . industrial designer: alrighty . okay . project manager: thank you very much . user interface: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: yeah . okay . { vocalsound }

a new remote control project was introduced by project manager . members made self-introductions and began to know each other by guessing animals others drew . project manager said that the remote control would be sold at 25 euros and a production cost of 12.5 euros . project manager also hoped to achieve fifty million euros and international market by new remote control . then the team discussed the disadvantages of the remote control and designed a new remote control style . industrial designer made a desire to design a remote control that can be used in different devices with most used buttons . project manager agreed that rather than complicated buttons , friendly to users and minimalist design with necessary buttons would be better .

what is the group 's experience about remote control ? </s> project manager: good morning . sorry ? yeah , busy job . good morning . so oh , good morning everyone . user interface: good morning . industrial designer: good morning . project manager: i 'd uh like to welcome you to our first meeting . i 've prepared a little presentation . my name is and uh i hope you will introduce yourself uh in a few minutes , as will i . um i 'm the project manager of this project , and uh , well i will tell you on what actually is the project . this is uh the agenda for our first meeting . um this is the opening , then we will get i will hope we will get acquainted to each other . we 'll do a little tool training with these two things . we 'll take a look at the project plan . uh there will be time for discussion . actually we have to discuss because we have to create a product . and then we will close this session . um but first of all we i 'd like to uh introduce you to this room . um as you probably have noticed there are little black uh fields on the table . um you have to put your laptop exactly in that field so the little cameras can see your face . um there are cameras industrial designer: project manager: everywhere around the room especially here for your face , of course , and this is n't a pie , it 's a a set of microphones industrial designer: project manager: and there are microphones here also . but please uh do n't be afraid of them . user interface: project manager: they wo n't hurt you . um well uh user interface: well industrial designer: project manager: i said i 'm the project manager and uh i 'm hoping uh for a good project and uh i 'd like to hear uh who you are and what your functions are uh on this project . let 's start with the ladies . user interface: well uh i 'm uh and my uh function is user interface design , i think . industrial designer: user interface: so uh that 's me . industrial designer: okay , uh i 'm uh i 'm the industrial designer and i uh hope to uh look forward to uh a very uh pleasing uh end of this uh project . project manager: okay , so i . user interface: me too . marketing: my name 's . i 'm uh marketing expert . my job is in the company to promote company or promote products to the customers . so i also h hope we have a pleasant uh working with uh with each other . project manager: okay , well we have some expertise from uh different pieces of the of the company . user interface: project manager: that 's good . um well i said uh we 're working on a project and the aim for the project is to to create a to design a new remote control which uh has to be original , trendy and of course , user friendly . and uh i hope we have the expertise to create such a project such a product . um the way we hope to achieve that is uh the following methods . it consists of three phases , namely the functional design , conceptual design and detailed design . as you can see , all of these phases consists of two parts , namely individual work part and a meeting where we will discuss uh our work so far . okay . but first i will uh tell you something about the tools we have here . i already talked about the cameras and microphones , but they are not of uh much use to us . uh we will have to take advantage of these two things . they are smart boards . as you can see , you can give a presentation on them . and uh this one here is a white board . i will uh instruct you about that soon . um as you also noticed uh this presentation document is in our uh project folder and every document you put in this folder uh is uh it is possible to show that here in our meeting room . um and yeah there are available on both smart boards but i think we will uh mainly use this one for the documents in the shared folder . as you can see , this is the same tool bar uh as is located here . um the most functions uh we will use will be to to add a new page , um uh to go back and forward between pages , and of course uh to save it every now and then . um and this is the pen with which you can draw on the board , for instance like this if everything 's okay , user interface: project manager: but i first have to put it on the pen , you see i 'm new to it too . user interface: project manager: um and then you can write things like test or whatever you want . industrial designer: user interface: oh . project manager: as you can see you have to move it a little bit slow , it 's not such a fast board , it 's a smart board but also a slow board . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: uh but you can write things and of course you can also , when you click here , uh erase things , so we have uh est left . and um you can also delete an entire page , but we ask you not to do that . just simply create a new one and uh start all over because we want to save all the results . um does everyone understand this user interface: so we ca n't erase anything . project manager: nice application ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: well you can erase it with the eraser , but uh you should n't delete an entire page , but just create a new blank one . user interface: right . marketing: s project manager: i will delete this one now because we do n't use it yet . user interface: alright . project manager: but you can of course erase when you make a mistake , but do n't uh delete entire pages . and you can also um let 's see i think it 's here uh change the uh colour of your pen , for instance take a blue one and uh change the line width like to five . um that 's what you will need for our first exercise , because i 'm uh going to ask you to draw your favourite animal . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: it 's also to gets to know each other because um i 'm asking three things , uh for that uh drawing , industrial designer: okay . project manager: to do it on a blank sheet , with different colours and i just showed you how to pick a colour , and also with different pen widths which i also showed you . um and a favourite characteristic can be just uh one word . well i 'm not very good at drawing , but i will uh go first and um try to draw user interface: project manager: or maybe you should guess what i 'm drawing , eh . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: good . user interface: industrial designer: hmm . marketing: no . user interface: it 's a sheep . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: dinos industrial designer: seal , a seal . marketing: dinosaur . user interface: marketing: beaver . user interface: a beaver . industrial designer: a be project manager: well it uh user interface: it 's weird . project manager: could be everything . industrial designer: mm . with a tail and a mouth . project manager: maybe when i put on user interface: it has wings ? marketing: turtle . project manager: this thing it could be a turtle , or a snail , industrial designer: snail . user interface: well the snail does n't have legs . industrial designer: okay . project manager: but a turtle has . and those are slow . and i hope our project group will not be slow , industrial designer: project manager: but we will uh work to a good result industrial designer: project manager: and do it uh as fast as we can . okay , time for another animal . would you like to go next ? user interface: marketing: no problem . no problem . industrial designer: sure . user interface: oh right . marketing: mm . it was four months ? user interface: marketing: nice , okay . user interface: well . industrial designer: the hell . user interface: marketing: to make it a little bit easier . user interface: it 's a giraffe . industrial designer: make that cute . user interface: or a dinosaur . marketing: no , it 's a giraffe . 'kay . user interface: marketing: i think it 's easy to r uh to recognise as a giraffe . user interface: yes . giraffe . industrial designer: project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah , the favourite charis characteristic is that the long neck , it can reach everything . and i hope i can also reach a lot with this project . so that 's my favourite animal . project manager: okay . marketing: anything else you need to know ? project manager: could you write the words , uh underneath it ? or more words . marketing: oh , uh industrial designer: tall . user interface: marketing: tall . so , user interface: should i uh marketing: 'kay . user interface: alright . marketing: user interface: so i can draw , but uh uh . well . oh . industrial designer: b marketing: it 's a mouse . user interface: industrial designer: bunny rabbit . marketing: a bunny rabbit . user interface: oh wrong one . uh . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: well uh industrial designer: user interface: you can guess what it is , i hope . marketing: uh-huh . no problem . project manager: little rabbits . user interface: it 's a rabbit . industrial designer: user interface: and uh well uh it 's uh quick , i guess . that 's uh my uh favourite animal . project manager: okay , thank you . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and our final drawing . user interface: marketing: bob ross . user interface: a dolphin . project manager: industrial designer: okay , um . marketing: dolphin . industrial designer: uh i uh draw i i 've drawn a dolphin because of its intelligence . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: right . industrial designer: one of the most intelligent uh project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: animals in our world . user interface: well . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: yeah intelligent . user interface: with an e_ . project manager: industrial designer: i 've i 've uh user interface: industrial designer: eraser . project manager: user interface: you can try out the eraser now . project manager: industrial designer: pen . well not perfect , but okay . project manager: okay , well user interface: project manager: thank you very much . i can see we have some uh drawing talent uh in this group , industrial designer: user interface: not really . project manager: huh ? well , nice animals , nice words . sounds good . um back to business , back to the money part . um from the finance department i have learned that we are aiming for a selling price of twenty five euros . and we 're hoping for a aim of fifty million euros and uh we are hoping to achieve that uh by aiming for an international market . and the production cost will be twelve euro fifty max . okay , well it 's time uh for some discussion . i 've wrote down some examples here of what we can can speak about . uh what 's your experience with remote controls , um what kind of ideas do you have to design a new remote control , maybe for which market segments should we aim , or should we aim for all segments . uh well actually i 'd like to hand the word uh back to you . what 's your experience with remote control ? user interface: i always lose them . industrial designer: a lot of buttons . and you always lose them . marketing: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: a lot of buttons which you do n't use user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or who you do n't use marketing: complex . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: complex . user interface: industrial designer: not user friendly . user interface: search for the buttons , which one is which marketing: no . user interface: and uh industrial designer: marketing: no . industrial designer: marketing: boring . user interface: project manager: boring , it 's not fun to use a remote . industrial designer: marketing: no . industrial designer: mm . marketing: black , all black . user interface: well . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: black colours . marketing: so , yeah . project manager: well maybe we should try to make it fun . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: they use batteries and batteries uh and poor signal . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh . marketing: yeah . user interface: perhaps that you have a lot of road remotes r road con remote controls . marketing: the the angle you have to use . you had different remote controls for different devices . industrial designer: yeah , different remote controls , user interface: yes , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: perhaps you can integrate them or something . marketing: yes . industrial designer: uh for the use of different uh devices . user interface: yes . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: your stereo and your tv marketing: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: and uh . perhaps that 's an idea . marketing: yeah but then again you you still have a lot of buttons , user interface: yeah , that 's right . and which you do n't use . industrial designer: yeah marketing: so industrial designer: but you could uh i thin uh there 's a possibility to g uh to uh to put those buttons uh behind some uh kind of uh protection marketing: flap user interface: right . industrial designer: so that if y y you only get to see them when you need 'em . marketing: yeah . yeah , okay , that 's possible , industrial designer: that 's possible , so that you only get the marketing: but it 'll get very big the the remote control . user interface: yeah . you should just give it to . industrial designer: no n n no , just uh for example you got th uh the same size uh remote control you use everyday , but um the usual buttons such as uh um zapping uh as you call it in dutch . uh and the volume control uh are only the only possible buttons uh to use directly . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: changing channel . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or uh the numbers , of course . marketing: mm-hmm . numbers . industrial designer: but uh not uh the buttons used to search on the the channels on your television . marketing: on and off . industrial designer: you only use those uh the first time , or . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: so . uh . marketing: play , pause , stop . project manager: mm-hmm . so maybe a a minimalist design , the least uh possible amount uh of buttons . industrial designer: yeah , i think so , yeah . marketing: user interface: yes . but you should make sure that you have every button they need on it . because uh things for uh teletext , i dunno uh , w industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm , of course . industrial designer: yeah , uh teletext . marketing: user interface: what 's the name ? project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: think so . marketing: industrial designer: okay . project manager: so you do n't want to bother people with uh loads of buttons , but on the other hand they need many buttons marketing: no . project manager: so they do n't have to get out of their seat . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: but industrial designer: right . marketing: because i think a market will be all kind of people . elderly p el elderly , young people , so . user interface: but if if it 's if it 's international you should uh look in think in britain they have uh different things they can do with the tv , or so uh that you can choose what you want to see . i dunno if you should uh take that in consideration , or that you just should aim for the normal tvs industrial designer: uh . user interface: that uh industrial designer: yeah i i understand . marketing: yeah i think that 's the better one , user interface: and the b_b_c_ . marketing: because i think if you you 're going to target a lot of people and the whole world and only britain then i think the cost will uh rise higher than the twelve fifty , i think . industrial designer: no . user interface: yes . yeah , i do n't know if the they have that anywhere else , though . marketing: i think the aim is better to use uh the whole world and britain , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah , we can leave that . industrial designer: when i think of it uh marketing: not that much . industrial designer: i think the main idea uh of this remote remote control is uh to make it user friendly . so uh i think uh when p uh when uh the customers will buy this remote control , they already have uh the remote control which uh companies uh uh with uh the the standards uh remote control with which comes uh with the television . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . standard deliver . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh marketing: mm . industrial designer: it only has to have uh the most used buttons . you do n't have to integrate the buttons to search the channels on your television . user interface: well industrial designer: in those in that user interface: but marketing: no but user interface: but then you have to to find your other remote control if you want to search . marketing: yeah . yeah , th it it 's i think that 's not user interface: that 's not industrial designer: yeah but i but it is impossible to uh to accommodate uh accommodate uh all the buttons on the s on the difference different televisions sets on one remote control . it 's impossible . user interface: yeah , that 's right . marketing: yeah , okay . industrial designer: because uh for example sony television uh has the opportunity to s to make uh uh to make it possible for to see on one side of the screen uh teletext , and on the other side uh just n uh regular television . uh marketing: no . user interface: yeah that 's uh . marketing: i think n m n most televisions nowadays do this . industrial designer: yeah , but uh they do n't use the same signal , uh on remote control . user interface: well not everywhere . marketing: so i think numerals . industrial designer: because you ca n't use a panasonic uh remote control on a on a philips television . marketing: yeah , but then you have to choose the always with r universal remotes you have to choose the code . user interface: yeah , you can choose the code . industrial designer: okay . okay . okay . okay , marketing: you can use which which type of television you have . that 's no problem . but i think like the two pages on the same screen , like teletext and normal television , that 's that 's nowadays standard , i think . industrial designer: but uh i think that most people uh th uh will buy the remote control because because uh the first they lost the one they lost first one marketing: simplicity . industrial designer: or the first one is broken , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so uh uh perhaps they have a got a an older television , marketing: yeah , yeah . mm-hmm . industrial designer: so that option is not uh optional for those uh people . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah g available . user interface: but the people have a new television , marketing: true . user interface: and c if you look into the future , then they want will want the button , if their thing is broke . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so we should take that in consideration . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , well marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: any more ideas ? user interface: industrial designer: oh mm , no . project manager: no ? user interface: guess not . marketing: of course . industrial designer: things 'll come up . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , yeah well we have some time . let 's see what more i have to tell you . i do n't think there is much left . nope . we 're starting to close . um our next meeting uh will start well we 're a little bit early , but our next meeting will start in in thirty minutes . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: in the meantime uh there 's time for some uh individual actions . um , as you can see , the different roles have uh different tasks . and there 's a ping . user interface: project manager: is it my laptop ? marketing: yeah . project manager: yep . industrial designer: stop the meeting now . project manager: ah well user interface: yeah meeting will close in five minutes . project manager: that 's good , five minutes and uh the meeting 's over , uh right on schedule . industrial designer: okay . project manager: um the marketing expert will uh will take a look at the user requirement specification . the user interface designer will work out the technical functions design . and this was the interface designer ? or the interaction designer . user interface: hmm hmm . industrial designer: mm . project manager: or what was it , i_d_ ? user interface: no interface . industrial designer: no ? marketing: interface . project manager: interface designer , okay , first guess was right . uh will take a look at the the working design . industrial designer: no , user interface: no industrial designer: the industrial designer will take a look at the working design , user interface: the yeah . industrial designer: and the in uh usability interaction user interface: project manager: industrial designer , okay , industrial designer: yeah , okay . okay . project manager: sorry . let 's just use the acronyms . um and of course specific instructions uh will be sent to you uh through your personal coach . user interface: so so i should look at uh what you should be able to do with the remote , or uh , or how i do n't really project manager: uh well those instructions will be uh in the email you will receive uh shortly , i hope . user interface: right . alright . me too . project manager: and of course you have your own uh expertise . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: well uh that was what i had to say . marketing: uh-huh . project manager: uh are there any more questions ? industrial designer: okay . marketing: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: no ? okay well i think then we have to head uh back to our offices and uh start working . industrial designer: okay . marketing: i have one question . project manager: okay , one question ? industrial designer: oh . marketing: where does it says we have to make a remote , because i presumed she did n't know who . okay , no , no problem . project manager: okay user interface: industrial designer: no problem . okay . project manager: we 're still going . marketing: no problem . yeah . project manager: okay , well i expect everything will be much clearer with the instructions we will receive uh shortly . user interface: alright . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay well uh see you all in about thirty minutes , then . industrial designer: alrighty . okay . project manager: thank you very much . user interface: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: yeah . okay . { vocalsound }

user interface thought that remote control was easy to lose and complex to use and then suggested new remote control can be integrated . industrial designer thought the remote control had too many buttons and a bad signal . marketing thought different devices had different remote controls . project manager thought remote control was all black and boring , then he suggested making remote control fun .

what did the group discuss about the new remote control style ? </s> project manager: good morning . sorry ? yeah , busy job . good morning . so oh , good morning everyone . user interface: good morning . industrial designer: good morning . project manager: i 'd uh like to welcome you to our first meeting . i 've prepared a little presentation . my name is and uh i hope you will introduce yourself uh in a few minutes , as will i . um i 'm the project manager of this project , and uh , well i will tell you on what actually is the project . this is uh the agenda for our first meeting . um this is the opening , then we will get i will hope we will get acquainted to each other . we 'll do a little tool training with these two things . we 'll take a look at the project plan . uh there will be time for discussion . actually we have to discuss because we have to create a product . and then we will close this session . um but first of all we i 'd like to uh introduce you to this room . um as you probably have noticed there are little black uh fields on the table . um you have to put your laptop exactly in that field so the little cameras can see your face . um there are cameras industrial designer: project manager: everywhere around the room especially here for your face , of course , and this is n't a pie , it 's a a set of microphones industrial designer: project manager: and there are microphones here also . but please uh do n't be afraid of them . user interface: project manager: they wo n't hurt you . um well uh user interface: well industrial designer: project manager: i said i 'm the project manager and uh i 'm hoping uh for a good project and uh i 'd like to hear uh who you are and what your functions are uh on this project . let 's start with the ladies . user interface: well uh i 'm uh and my uh function is user interface design , i think . industrial designer: user interface: so uh that 's me . industrial designer: okay , uh i 'm uh i 'm the industrial designer and i uh hope to uh look forward to uh a very uh pleasing uh end of this uh project . project manager: okay , so i . user interface: me too . marketing: my name 's . i 'm uh marketing expert . my job is in the company to promote company or promote products to the customers . so i also h hope we have a pleasant uh working with uh with each other . project manager: okay , well we have some expertise from uh different pieces of the of the company . user interface: project manager: that 's good . um well i said uh we 're working on a project and the aim for the project is to to create a to design a new remote control which uh has to be original , trendy and of course , user friendly . and uh i hope we have the expertise to create such a project such a product . um the way we hope to achieve that is uh the following methods . it consists of three phases , namely the functional design , conceptual design and detailed design . as you can see , all of these phases consists of two parts , namely individual work part and a meeting where we will discuss uh our work so far . okay . but first i will uh tell you something about the tools we have here . i already talked about the cameras and microphones , but they are not of uh much use to us . uh we will have to take advantage of these two things . they are smart boards . as you can see , you can give a presentation on them . and uh this one here is a white board . i will uh instruct you about that soon . um as you also noticed uh this presentation document is in our uh project folder and every document you put in this folder uh is uh it is possible to show that here in our meeting room . um and yeah there are available on both smart boards but i think we will uh mainly use this one for the documents in the shared folder . as you can see , this is the same tool bar uh as is located here . um the most functions uh we will use will be to to add a new page , um uh to go back and forward between pages , and of course uh to save it every now and then . um and this is the pen with which you can draw on the board , for instance like this if everything 's okay , user interface: project manager: but i first have to put it on the pen , you see i 'm new to it too . user interface: project manager: um and then you can write things like test or whatever you want . industrial designer: user interface: oh . project manager: as you can see you have to move it a little bit slow , it 's not such a fast board , it 's a smart board but also a slow board . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: uh but you can write things and of course you can also , when you click here , uh erase things , so we have uh est left . and um you can also delete an entire page , but we ask you not to do that . just simply create a new one and uh start all over because we want to save all the results . um does everyone understand this user interface: so we ca n't erase anything . project manager: nice application ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: well you can erase it with the eraser , but uh you should n't delete an entire page , but just create a new blank one . user interface: right . marketing: s project manager: i will delete this one now because we do n't use it yet . user interface: alright . project manager: but you can of course erase when you make a mistake , but do n't uh delete entire pages . and you can also um let 's see i think it 's here uh change the uh colour of your pen , for instance take a blue one and uh change the line width like to five . um that 's what you will need for our first exercise , because i 'm uh going to ask you to draw your favourite animal . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: it 's also to gets to know each other because um i 'm asking three things , uh for that uh drawing , industrial designer: okay . project manager: to do it on a blank sheet , with different colours and i just showed you how to pick a colour , and also with different pen widths which i also showed you . um and a favourite characteristic can be just uh one word . well i 'm not very good at drawing , but i will uh go first and um try to draw user interface: project manager: or maybe you should guess what i 'm drawing , eh . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: good . user interface: industrial designer: hmm . marketing: no . user interface: it 's a sheep . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: dinos industrial designer: seal , a seal . marketing: dinosaur . user interface: marketing: beaver . user interface: a beaver . industrial designer: a be project manager: well it uh user interface: it 's weird . project manager: could be everything . industrial designer: mm . with a tail and a mouth . project manager: maybe when i put on user interface: it has wings ? marketing: turtle . project manager: this thing it could be a turtle , or a snail , industrial designer: snail . user interface: well the snail does n't have legs . industrial designer: okay . project manager: but a turtle has . and those are slow . and i hope our project group will not be slow , industrial designer: project manager: but we will uh work to a good result industrial designer: project manager: and do it uh as fast as we can . okay , time for another animal . would you like to go next ? user interface: marketing: no problem . no problem . industrial designer: sure . user interface: oh right . marketing: mm . it was four months ? user interface: marketing: nice , okay . user interface: well . industrial designer: the hell . user interface: marketing: to make it a little bit easier . user interface: it 's a giraffe . industrial designer: make that cute . user interface: or a dinosaur . marketing: no , it 's a giraffe . 'kay . user interface: marketing: i think it 's easy to r uh to recognise as a giraffe . user interface: yes . giraffe . industrial designer: project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah , the favourite charis characteristic is that the long neck , it can reach everything . and i hope i can also reach a lot with this project . so that 's my favourite animal . project manager: okay . marketing: anything else you need to know ? project manager: could you write the words , uh underneath it ? or more words . marketing: oh , uh industrial designer: tall . user interface: marketing: tall . so , user interface: should i uh marketing: 'kay . user interface: alright . marketing: user interface: so i can draw , but uh uh . well . oh . industrial designer: b marketing: it 's a mouse . user interface: industrial designer: bunny rabbit . marketing: a bunny rabbit . user interface: oh wrong one . uh . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: well uh industrial designer: user interface: you can guess what it is , i hope . marketing: uh-huh . no problem . project manager: little rabbits . user interface: it 's a rabbit . industrial designer: user interface: and uh well uh it 's uh quick , i guess . that 's uh my uh favourite animal . project manager: okay , thank you . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and our final drawing . user interface: marketing: bob ross . user interface: a dolphin . project manager: industrial designer: okay , um . marketing: dolphin . industrial designer: uh i uh draw i i 've drawn a dolphin because of its intelligence . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: right . industrial designer: one of the most intelligent uh project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: animals in our world . user interface: well . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: yeah intelligent . user interface: with an e_ . project manager: industrial designer: i 've i 've uh user interface: industrial designer: eraser . project manager: user interface: you can try out the eraser now . project manager: industrial designer: pen . well not perfect , but okay . project manager: okay , well user interface: project manager: thank you very much . i can see we have some uh drawing talent uh in this group , industrial designer: user interface: not really . project manager: huh ? well , nice animals , nice words . sounds good . um back to business , back to the money part . um from the finance department i have learned that we are aiming for a selling price of twenty five euros . and we 're hoping for a aim of fifty million euros and uh we are hoping to achieve that uh by aiming for an international market . and the production cost will be twelve euro fifty max . okay , well it 's time uh for some discussion . i 've wrote down some examples here of what we can can speak about . uh what 's your experience with remote controls , um what kind of ideas do you have to design a new remote control , maybe for which market segments should we aim , or should we aim for all segments . uh well actually i 'd like to hand the word uh back to you . what 's your experience with remote control ? user interface: i always lose them . industrial designer: a lot of buttons . and you always lose them . marketing: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: a lot of buttons which you do n't use user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or who you do n't use marketing: complex . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: complex . user interface: industrial designer: not user friendly . user interface: search for the buttons , which one is which marketing: no . user interface: and uh industrial designer: marketing: no . industrial designer: marketing: boring . user interface: project manager: boring , it 's not fun to use a remote . industrial designer: marketing: no . industrial designer: mm . marketing: black , all black . user interface: well . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: black colours . marketing: so , yeah . project manager: well maybe we should try to make it fun . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: they use batteries and batteries uh and poor signal . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh . marketing: yeah . user interface: perhaps that you have a lot of road remotes r road con remote controls . marketing: the the angle you have to use . you had different remote controls for different devices . industrial designer: yeah , different remote controls , user interface: yes , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: perhaps you can integrate them or something . marketing: yes . industrial designer: uh for the use of different uh devices . user interface: yes . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: your stereo and your tv marketing: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: and uh . perhaps that 's an idea . marketing: yeah but then again you you still have a lot of buttons , user interface: yeah , that 's right . and which you do n't use . industrial designer: yeah marketing: so industrial designer: but you could uh i thin uh there 's a possibility to g uh to uh to put those buttons uh behind some uh kind of uh protection marketing: flap user interface: right . industrial designer: so that if y y you only get to see them when you need 'em . marketing: yeah . yeah , okay , that 's possible , industrial designer: that 's possible , so that you only get the marketing: but it 'll get very big the the remote control . user interface: yeah . you should just give it to . industrial designer: no n n no , just uh for example you got th uh the same size uh remote control you use everyday , but um the usual buttons such as uh um zapping uh as you call it in dutch . uh and the volume control uh are only the only possible buttons uh to use directly . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: changing channel . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or uh the numbers , of course . marketing: mm-hmm . numbers . industrial designer: but uh not uh the buttons used to search on the the channels on your television . marketing: on and off . industrial designer: you only use those uh the first time , or . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: so . uh . marketing: play , pause , stop . project manager: mm-hmm . so maybe a a minimalist design , the least uh possible amount uh of buttons . industrial designer: yeah , i think so , yeah . marketing: user interface: yes . but you should make sure that you have every button they need on it . because uh things for uh teletext , i dunno uh , w industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm , of course . industrial designer: yeah , uh teletext . marketing: user interface: what 's the name ? project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: think so . marketing: industrial designer: okay . project manager: so you do n't want to bother people with uh loads of buttons , but on the other hand they need many buttons marketing: no . project manager: so they do n't have to get out of their seat . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: but industrial designer: right . marketing: because i think a market will be all kind of people . elderly p el elderly , young people , so . user interface: but if if it 's if it 's international you should uh look in think in britain they have uh different things they can do with the tv , or so uh that you can choose what you want to see . i dunno if you should uh take that in consideration , or that you just should aim for the normal tvs industrial designer: uh . user interface: that uh industrial designer: yeah i i understand . marketing: yeah i think that 's the better one , user interface: and the b_b_c_ . marketing: because i think if you you 're going to target a lot of people and the whole world and only britain then i think the cost will uh rise higher than the twelve fifty , i think . industrial designer: no . user interface: yes . yeah , i do n't know if the they have that anywhere else , though . marketing: i think the aim is better to use uh the whole world and britain , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah , we can leave that . industrial designer: when i think of it uh marketing: not that much . industrial designer: i think the main idea uh of this remote remote control is uh to make it user friendly . so uh i think uh when p uh when uh the customers will buy this remote control , they already have uh the remote control which uh companies uh uh with uh the the standards uh remote control with which comes uh with the television . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . standard deliver . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh marketing: mm . industrial designer: it only has to have uh the most used buttons . you do n't have to integrate the buttons to search the channels on your television . user interface: well industrial designer: in those in that user interface: but marketing: no but user interface: but then you have to to find your other remote control if you want to search . marketing: yeah . yeah , th it it 's i think that 's not user interface: that 's not industrial designer: yeah but i but it is impossible to uh to accommodate uh accommodate uh all the buttons on the s on the difference different televisions sets on one remote control . it 's impossible . user interface: yeah , that 's right . marketing: yeah , okay . industrial designer: because uh for example sony television uh has the opportunity to s to make uh uh to make it possible for to see on one side of the screen uh teletext , and on the other side uh just n uh regular television . uh marketing: no . user interface: yeah that 's uh . marketing: i think n m n most televisions nowadays do this . industrial designer: yeah , but uh they do n't use the same signal , uh on remote control . user interface: well not everywhere . marketing: so i think numerals . industrial designer: because you ca n't use a panasonic uh remote control on a on a philips television . marketing: yeah , but then you have to choose the always with r universal remotes you have to choose the code . user interface: yeah , you can choose the code . industrial designer: okay . okay . okay . okay , marketing: you can use which which type of television you have . that 's no problem . but i think like the two pages on the same screen , like teletext and normal television , that 's that 's nowadays standard , i think . industrial designer: but uh i think that most people uh th uh will buy the remote control because because uh the first they lost the one they lost first one marketing: simplicity . industrial designer: or the first one is broken , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so uh uh perhaps they have a got a an older television , marketing: yeah , yeah . mm-hmm . industrial designer: so that option is not uh optional for those uh people . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah g available . user interface: but the people have a new television , marketing: true . user interface: and c if you look into the future , then they want will want the button , if their thing is broke . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so we should take that in consideration . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , well marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: any more ideas ? user interface: industrial designer: oh mm , no . project manager: no ? user interface: guess not . marketing: of course . industrial designer: things 'll come up . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , yeah well we have some time . let 's see what more i have to tell you . i do n't think there is much left . nope . we 're starting to close . um our next meeting uh will start well we 're a little bit early , but our next meeting will start in in thirty minutes . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: in the meantime uh there 's time for some uh individual actions . um , as you can see , the different roles have uh different tasks . and there 's a ping . user interface: project manager: is it my laptop ? marketing: yeah . project manager: yep . industrial designer: stop the meeting now . project manager: ah well user interface: yeah meeting will close in five minutes . project manager: that 's good , five minutes and uh the meeting 's over , uh right on schedule . industrial designer: okay . project manager: um the marketing expert will uh will take a look at the user requirement specification . the user interface designer will work out the technical functions design . and this was the interface designer ? or the interaction designer . user interface: hmm hmm . industrial designer: mm . project manager: or what was it , i_d_ ? user interface: no interface . industrial designer: no ? marketing: interface . project manager: interface designer , okay , first guess was right . uh will take a look at the the working design . industrial designer: no , user interface: no industrial designer: the industrial designer will take a look at the working design , user interface: the yeah . industrial designer: and the in uh usability interaction user interface: project manager: industrial designer , okay , industrial designer: yeah , okay . okay . project manager: sorry . let 's just use the acronyms . um and of course specific instructions uh will be sent to you uh through your personal coach . user interface: so so i should look at uh what you should be able to do with the remote , or uh , or how i do n't really project manager: uh well those instructions will be uh in the email you will receive uh shortly , i hope . user interface: right . alright . me too . project manager: and of course you have your own uh expertise . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: well uh that was what i had to say . marketing: uh-huh . project manager: uh are there any more questions ? industrial designer: okay . marketing: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: no ? okay well i think then we have to head uh back to our offices and uh start working . industrial designer: okay . marketing: i have one question . project manager: okay , one question ? industrial designer: oh . marketing: where does it says we have to make a remote , because i presumed she did n't know who . okay , no , no problem . project manager: okay user interface: industrial designer: no problem . okay . project manager: we 're still going . marketing: no problem . yeah . project manager: okay , well i expect everything will be much clearer with the instructions we will receive uh shortly . user interface: alright . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay well uh see you all in about thirty minutes , then . industrial designer: alrighty . okay . project manager: thank you very much . user interface: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: yeah . okay . { vocalsound }

industrial designer expressed a desire to make the remote friendly to users . he hoped that new remote control should work on different devices . user interface suggested taking different kinds of tv like teletext into consideration . project manager agreed and supposed remote control with the least amount of buttons .

what did industrial designer think about remote control style ? </s> project manager: good morning . sorry ? yeah , busy job . good morning . so oh , good morning everyone . user interface: good morning . industrial designer: good morning . project manager: i 'd uh like to welcome you to our first meeting . i 've prepared a little presentation . my name is and uh i hope you will introduce yourself uh in a few minutes , as will i . um i 'm the project manager of this project , and uh , well i will tell you on what actually is the project . this is uh the agenda for our first meeting . um this is the opening , then we will get i will hope we will get acquainted to each other . we 'll do a little tool training with these two things . we 'll take a look at the project plan . uh there will be time for discussion . actually we have to discuss because we have to create a product . and then we will close this session . um but first of all we i 'd like to uh introduce you to this room . um as you probably have noticed there are little black uh fields on the table . um you have to put your laptop exactly in that field so the little cameras can see your face . um there are cameras industrial designer: project manager: everywhere around the room especially here for your face , of course , and this is n't a pie , it 's a a set of microphones industrial designer: project manager: and there are microphones here also . but please uh do n't be afraid of them . user interface: project manager: they wo n't hurt you . um well uh user interface: well industrial designer: project manager: i said i 'm the project manager and uh i 'm hoping uh for a good project and uh i 'd like to hear uh who you are and what your functions are uh on this project . let 's start with the ladies . user interface: well uh i 'm uh and my uh function is user interface design , i think . industrial designer: user interface: so uh that 's me . industrial designer: okay , uh i 'm uh i 'm the industrial designer and i uh hope to uh look forward to uh a very uh pleasing uh end of this uh project . project manager: okay , so i . user interface: me too . marketing: my name 's . i 'm uh marketing expert . my job is in the company to promote company or promote products to the customers . so i also h hope we have a pleasant uh working with uh with each other . project manager: okay , well we have some expertise from uh different pieces of the of the company . user interface: project manager: that 's good . um well i said uh we 're working on a project and the aim for the project is to to create a to design a new remote control which uh has to be original , trendy and of course , user friendly . and uh i hope we have the expertise to create such a project such a product . um the way we hope to achieve that is uh the following methods . it consists of three phases , namely the functional design , conceptual design and detailed design . as you can see , all of these phases consists of two parts , namely individual work part and a meeting where we will discuss uh our work so far . okay . but first i will uh tell you something about the tools we have here . i already talked about the cameras and microphones , but they are not of uh much use to us . uh we will have to take advantage of these two things . they are smart boards . as you can see , you can give a presentation on them . and uh this one here is a white board . i will uh instruct you about that soon . um as you also noticed uh this presentation document is in our uh project folder and every document you put in this folder uh is uh it is possible to show that here in our meeting room . um and yeah there are available on both smart boards but i think we will uh mainly use this one for the documents in the shared folder . as you can see , this is the same tool bar uh as is located here . um the most functions uh we will use will be to to add a new page , um uh to go back and forward between pages , and of course uh to save it every now and then . um and this is the pen with which you can draw on the board , for instance like this if everything 's okay , user interface: project manager: but i first have to put it on the pen , you see i 'm new to it too . user interface: project manager: um and then you can write things like test or whatever you want . industrial designer: user interface: oh . project manager: as you can see you have to move it a little bit slow , it 's not such a fast board , it 's a smart board but also a slow board . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: uh but you can write things and of course you can also , when you click here , uh erase things , so we have uh est left . and um you can also delete an entire page , but we ask you not to do that . just simply create a new one and uh start all over because we want to save all the results . um does everyone understand this user interface: so we ca n't erase anything . project manager: nice application ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: well you can erase it with the eraser , but uh you should n't delete an entire page , but just create a new blank one . user interface: right . marketing: s project manager: i will delete this one now because we do n't use it yet . user interface: alright . project manager: but you can of course erase when you make a mistake , but do n't uh delete entire pages . and you can also um let 's see i think it 's here uh change the uh colour of your pen , for instance take a blue one and uh change the line width like to five . um that 's what you will need for our first exercise , because i 'm uh going to ask you to draw your favourite animal . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: it 's also to gets to know each other because um i 'm asking three things , uh for that uh drawing , industrial designer: okay . project manager: to do it on a blank sheet , with different colours and i just showed you how to pick a colour , and also with different pen widths which i also showed you . um and a favourite characteristic can be just uh one word . well i 'm not very good at drawing , but i will uh go first and um try to draw user interface: project manager: or maybe you should guess what i 'm drawing , eh . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: good . user interface: industrial designer: hmm . marketing: no . user interface: it 's a sheep . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: dinos industrial designer: seal , a seal . marketing: dinosaur . user interface: marketing: beaver . user interface: a beaver . industrial designer: a be project manager: well it uh user interface: it 's weird . project manager: could be everything . industrial designer: mm . with a tail and a mouth . project manager: maybe when i put on user interface: it has wings ? marketing: turtle . project manager: this thing it could be a turtle , or a snail , industrial designer: snail . user interface: well the snail does n't have legs . industrial designer: okay . project manager: but a turtle has . and those are slow . and i hope our project group will not be slow , industrial designer: project manager: but we will uh work to a good result industrial designer: project manager: and do it uh as fast as we can . okay , time for another animal . would you like to go next ? user interface: marketing: no problem . no problem . industrial designer: sure . user interface: oh right . marketing: mm . it was four months ? user interface: marketing: nice , okay . user interface: well . industrial designer: the hell . user interface: marketing: to make it a little bit easier . user interface: it 's a giraffe . industrial designer: make that cute . user interface: or a dinosaur . marketing: no , it 's a giraffe . 'kay . user interface: marketing: i think it 's easy to r uh to recognise as a giraffe . user interface: yes . giraffe . industrial designer: project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah , the favourite charis characteristic is that the long neck , it can reach everything . and i hope i can also reach a lot with this project . so that 's my favourite animal . project manager: okay . marketing: anything else you need to know ? project manager: could you write the words , uh underneath it ? or more words . marketing: oh , uh industrial designer: tall . user interface: marketing: tall . so , user interface: should i uh marketing: 'kay . user interface: alright . marketing: user interface: so i can draw , but uh uh . well . oh . industrial designer: b marketing: it 's a mouse . user interface: industrial designer: bunny rabbit . marketing: a bunny rabbit . user interface: oh wrong one . uh . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: well uh industrial designer: user interface: you can guess what it is , i hope . marketing: uh-huh . no problem . project manager: little rabbits . user interface: it 's a rabbit . industrial designer: user interface: and uh well uh it 's uh quick , i guess . that 's uh my uh favourite animal . project manager: okay , thank you . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and our final drawing . user interface: marketing: bob ross . user interface: a dolphin . project manager: industrial designer: okay , um . marketing: dolphin . industrial designer: uh i uh draw i i 've drawn a dolphin because of its intelligence . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: right . industrial designer: one of the most intelligent uh project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: animals in our world . user interface: well . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: yeah intelligent . user interface: with an e_ . project manager: industrial designer: i 've i 've uh user interface: industrial designer: eraser . project manager: user interface: you can try out the eraser now . project manager: industrial designer: pen . well not perfect , but okay . project manager: okay , well user interface: project manager: thank you very much . i can see we have some uh drawing talent uh in this group , industrial designer: user interface: not really . project manager: huh ? well , nice animals , nice words . sounds good . um back to business , back to the money part . um from the finance department i have learned that we are aiming for a selling price of twenty five euros . and we 're hoping for a aim of fifty million euros and uh we are hoping to achieve that uh by aiming for an international market . and the production cost will be twelve euro fifty max . okay , well it 's time uh for some discussion . i 've wrote down some examples here of what we can can speak about . uh what 's your experience with remote controls , um what kind of ideas do you have to design a new remote control , maybe for which market segments should we aim , or should we aim for all segments . uh well actually i 'd like to hand the word uh back to you . what 's your experience with remote control ? user interface: i always lose them . industrial designer: a lot of buttons . and you always lose them . marketing: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: a lot of buttons which you do n't use user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or who you do n't use marketing: complex . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: complex . user interface: industrial designer: not user friendly . user interface: search for the buttons , which one is which marketing: no . user interface: and uh industrial designer: marketing: no . industrial designer: marketing: boring . user interface: project manager: boring , it 's not fun to use a remote . industrial designer: marketing: no . industrial designer: mm . marketing: black , all black . user interface: well . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: black colours . marketing: so , yeah . project manager: well maybe we should try to make it fun . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: they use batteries and batteries uh and poor signal . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh . marketing: yeah . user interface: perhaps that you have a lot of road remotes r road con remote controls . marketing: the the angle you have to use . you had different remote controls for different devices . industrial designer: yeah , different remote controls , user interface: yes , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: perhaps you can integrate them or something . marketing: yes . industrial designer: uh for the use of different uh devices . user interface: yes . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: your stereo and your tv marketing: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: and uh . perhaps that 's an idea . marketing: yeah but then again you you still have a lot of buttons , user interface: yeah , that 's right . and which you do n't use . industrial designer: yeah marketing: so industrial designer: but you could uh i thin uh there 's a possibility to g uh to uh to put those buttons uh behind some uh kind of uh protection marketing: flap user interface: right . industrial designer: so that if y y you only get to see them when you need 'em . marketing: yeah . yeah , okay , that 's possible , industrial designer: that 's possible , so that you only get the marketing: but it 'll get very big the the remote control . user interface: yeah . you should just give it to . industrial designer: no n n no , just uh for example you got th uh the same size uh remote control you use everyday , but um the usual buttons such as uh um zapping uh as you call it in dutch . uh and the volume control uh are only the only possible buttons uh to use directly . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: changing channel . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or uh the numbers , of course . marketing: mm-hmm . numbers . industrial designer: but uh not uh the buttons used to search on the the channels on your television . marketing: on and off . industrial designer: you only use those uh the first time , or . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: so . uh . marketing: play , pause , stop . project manager: mm-hmm . so maybe a a minimalist design , the least uh possible amount uh of buttons . industrial designer: yeah , i think so , yeah . marketing: user interface: yes . but you should make sure that you have every button they need on it . because uh things for uh teletext , i dunno uh , w industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm , of course . industrial designer: yeah , uh teletext . marketing: user interface: what 's the name ? project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: think so . marketing: industrial designer: okay . project manager: so you do n't want to bother people with uh loads of buttons , but on the other hand they need many buttons marketing: no . project manager: so they do n't have to get out of their seat . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: but industrial designer: right . marketing: because i think a market will be all kind of people . elderly p el elderly , young people , so . user interface: but if if it 's if it 's international you should uh look in think in britain they have uh different things they can do with the tv , or so uh that you can choose what you want to see . i dunno if you should uh take that in consideration , or that you just should aim for the normal tvs industrial designer: uh . user interface: that uh industrial designer: yeah i i understand . marketing: yeah i think that 's the better one , user interface: and the b_b_c_ . marketing: because i think if you you 're going to target a lot of people and the whole world and only britain then i think the cost will uh rise higher than the twelve fifty , i think . industrial designer: no . user interface: yes . yeah , i do n't know if the they have that anywhere else , though . marketing: i think the aim is better to use uh the whole world and britain , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah , we can leave that . industrial designer: when i think of it uh marketing: not that much . industrial designer: i think the main idea uh of this remote remote control is uh to make it user friendly . so uh i think uh when p uh when uh the customers will buy this remote control , they already have uh the remote control which uh companies uh uh with uh the the standards uh remote control with which comes uh with the television . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . standard deliver . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh marketing: mm . industrial designer: it only has to have uh the most used buttons . you do n't have to integrate the buttons to search the channels on your television . user interface: well industrial designer: in those in that user interface: but marketing: no but user interface: but then you have to to find your other remote control if you want to search . marketing: yeah . yeah , th it it 's i think that 's not user interface: that 's not industrial designer: yeah but i but it is impossible to uh to accommodate uh accommodate uh all the buttons on the s on the difference different televisions sets on one remote control . it 's impossible . user interface: yeah , that 's right . marketing: yeah , okay . industrial designer: because uh for example sony television uh has the opportunity to s to make uh uh to make it possible for to see on one side of the screen uh teletext , and on the other side uh just n uh regular television . uh marketing: no . user interface: yeah that 's uh . marketing: i think n m n most televisions nowadays do this . industrial designer: yeah , but uh they do n't use the same signal , uh on remote control . user interface: well not everywhere . marketing: so i think numerals . industrial designer: because you ca n't use a panasonic uh remote control on a on a philips television . marketing: yeah , but then you have to choose the always with r universal remotes you have to choose the code . user interface: yeah , you can choose the code . industrial designer: okay . okay . okay . okay , marketing: you can use which which type of television you have . that 's no problem . but i think like the two pages on the same screen , like teletext and normal television , that 's that 's nowadays standard , i think . industrial designer: but uh i think that most people uh th uh will buy the remote control because because uh the first they lost the one they lost first one marketing: simplicity . industrial designer: or the first one is broken , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so uh uh perhaps they have a got a an older television , marketing: yeah , yeah . mm-hmm . industrial designer: so that option is not uh optional for those uh people . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah g available . user interface: but the people have a new television , marketing: true . user interface: and c if you look into the future , then they want will want the button , if their thing is broke . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so we should take that in consideration . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , well marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: any more ideas ? user interface: industrial designer: oh mm , no . project manager: no ? user interface: guess not . marketing: of course . industrial designer: things 'll come up . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , yeah well we have some time . let 's see what more i have to tell you . i do n't think there is much left . nope . we 're starting to close . um our next meeting uh will start well we 're a little bit early , but our next meeting will start in in thirty minutes . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: in the meantime uh there 's time for some uh individual actions . um , as you can see , the different roles have uh different tasks . and there 's a ping . user interface: project manager: is it my laptop ? marketing: yeah . project manager: yep . industrial designer: stop the meeting now . project manager: ah well user interface: yeah meeting will close in five minutes . project manager: that 's good , five minutes and uh the meeting 's over , uh right on schedule . industrial designer: okay . project manager: um the marketing expert will uh will take a look at the user requirement specification . the user interface designer will work out the technical functions design . and this was the interface designer ? or the interaction designer . user interface: hmm hmm . industrial designer: mm . project manager: or what was it , i_d_ ? user interface: no interface . industrial designer: no ? marketing: interface . project manager: interface designer , okay , first guess was right . uh will take a look at the the working design . industrial designer: no , user interface: no industrial designer: the industrial designer will take a look at the working design , user interface: the yeah . industrial designer: and the in uh usability interaction user interface: project manager: industrial designer , okay , industrial designer: yeah , okay . okay . project manager: sorry . let 's just use the acronyms . um and of course specific instructions uh will be sent to you uh through your personal coach . user interface: so so i should look at uh what you should be able to do with the remote , or uh , or how i do n't really project manager: uh well those instructions will be uh in the email you will receive uh shortly , i hope . user interface: right . alright . me too . project manager: and of course you have your own uh expertise . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: well uh that was what i had to say . marketing: uh-huh . project manager: uh are there any more questions ? industrial designer: okay . marketing: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: no ? okay well i think then we have to head uh back to our offices and uh start working . industrial designer: okay . marketing: i have one question . project manager: okay , one question ? industrial designer: oh . marketing: where does it says we have to make a remote , because i presumed she did n't know who . okay , no , no problem . project manager: okay user interface: industrial designer: no problem . okay . project manager: we 're still going . marketing: no problem . yeah . project manager: okay , well i expect everything will be much clearer with the instructions we will receive uh shortly . user interface: alright . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay well uh see you all in about thirty minutes , then . industrial designer: alrighty . okay . project manager: thank you very much . user interface: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: yeah . okay . { vocalsound }

industrial designer desired to make the remote with most used buttons so that the remote was friendly to users . unnecessary buttons should be behind some kind of protection so that they only can be seen when needed . instead of a big size , the remote control should be the normal size with the least amount of buttons .

what did the group think of market range about remote control ? </s> project manager: good morning . sorry ? yeah , busy job . good morning . so oh , good morning everyone . user interface: good morning . industrial designer: good morning . project manager: i 'd uh like to welcome you to our first meeting . i 've prepared a little presentation . my name is and uh i hope you will introduce yourself uh in a few minutes , as will i . um i 'm the project manager of this project , and uh , well i will tell you on what actually is the project . this is uh the agenda for our first meeting . um this is the opening , then we will get i will hope we will get acquainted to each other . we 'll do a little tool training with these two things . we 'll take a look at the project plan . uh there will be time for discussion . actually we have to discuss because we have to create a product . and then we will close this session . um but first of all we i 'd like to uh introduce you to this room . um as you probably have noticed there are little black uh fields on the table . um you have to put your laptop exactly in that field so the little cameras can see your face . um there are cameras industrial designer: project manager: everywhere around the room especially here for your face , of course , and this is n't a pie , it 's a a set of microphones industrial designer: project manager: and there are microphones here also . but please uh do n't be afraid of them . user interface: project manager: they wo n't hurt you . um well uh user interface: well industrial designer: project manager: i said i 'm the project manager and uh i 'm hoping uh for a good project and uh i 'd like to hear uh who you are and what your functions are uh on this project . let 's start with the ladies . user interface: well uh i 'm uh and my uh function is user interface design , i think . industrial designer: user interface: so uh that 's me . industrial designer: okay , uh i 'm uh i 'm the industrial designer and i uh hope to uh look forward to uh a very uh pleasing uh end of this uh project . project manager: okay , so i . user interface: me too . marketing: my name 's . i 'm uh marketing expert . my job is in the company to promote company or promote products to the customers . so i also h hope we have a pleasant uh working with uh with each other . project manager: okay , well we have some expertise from uh different pieces of the of the company . user interface: project manager: that 's good . um well i said uh we 're working on a project and the aim for the project is to to create a to design a new remote control which uh has to be original , trendy and of course , user friendly . and uh i hope we have the expertise to create such a project such a product . um the way we hope to achieve that is uh the following methods . it consists of three phases , namely the functional design , conceptual design and detailed design . as you can see , all of these phases consists of two parts , namely individual work part and a meeting where we will discuss uh our work so far . okay . but first i will uh tell you something about the tools we have here . i already talked about the cameras and microphones , but they are not of uh much use to us . uh we will have to take advantage of these two things . they are smart boards . as you can see , you can give a presentation on them . and uh this one here is a white board . i will uh instruct you about that soon . um as you also noticed uh this presentation document is in our uh project folder and every document you put in this folder uh is uh it is possible to show that here in our meeting room . um and yeah there are available on both smart boards but i think we will uh mainly use this one for the documents in the shared folder . as you can see , this is the same tool bar uh as is located here . um the most functions uh we will use will be to to add a new page , um uh to go back and forward between pages , and of course uh to save it every now and then . um and this is the pen with which you can draw on the board , for instance like this if everything 's okay , user interface: project manager: but i first have to put it on the pen , you see i 'm new to it too . user interface: project manager: um and then you can write things like test or whatever you want . industrial designer: user interface: oh . project manager: as you can see you have to move it a little bit slow , it 's not such a fast board , it 's a smart board but also a slow board . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: uh but you can write things and of course you can also , when you click here , uh erase things , so we have uh est left . and um you can also delete an entire page , but we ask you not to do that . just simply create a new one and uh start all over because we want to save all the results . um does everyone understand this user interface: so we ca n't erase anything . project manager: nice application ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: well you can erase it with the eraser , but uh you should n't delete an entire page , but just create a new blank one . user interface: right . marketing: s project manager: i will delete this one now because we do n't use it yet . user interface: alright . project manager: but you can of course erase when you make a mistake , but do n't uh delete entire pages . and you can also um let 's see i think it 's here uh change the uh colour of your pen , for instance take a blue one and uh change the line width like to five . um that 's what you will need for our first exercise , because i 'm uh going to ask you to draw your favourite animal . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: it 's also to gets to know each other because um i 'm asking three things , uh for that uh drawing , industrial designer: okay . project manager: to do it on a blank sheet , with different colours and i just showed you how to pick a colour , and also with different pen widths which i also showed you . um and a favourite characteristic can be just uh one word . well i 'm not very good at drawing , but i will uh go first and um try to draw user interface: project manager: or maybe you should guess what i 'm drawing , eh . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: good . user interface: industrial designer: hmm . marketing: no . user interface: it 's a sheep . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: dinos industrial designer: seal , a seal . marketing: dinosaur . user interface: marketing: beaver . user interface: a beaver . industrial designer: a be project manager: well it uh user interface: it 's weird . project manager: could be everything . industrial designer: mm . with a tail and a mouth . project manager: maybe when i put on user interface: it has wings ? marketing: turtle . project manager: this thing it could be a turtle , or a snail , industrial designer: snail . user interface: well the snail does n't have legs . industrial designer: okay . project manager: but a turtle has . and those are slow . and i hope our project group will not be slow , industrial designer: project manager: but we will uh work to a good result industrial designer: project manager: and do it uh as fast as we can . okay , time for another animal . would you like to go next ? user interface: marketing: no problem . no problem . industrial designer: sure . user interface: oh right . marketing: mm . it was four months ? user interface: marketing: nice , okay . user interface: well . industrial designer: the hell . user interface: marketing: to make it a little bit easier . user interface: it 's a giraffe . industrial designer: make that cute . user interface: or a dinosaur . marketing: no , it 's a giraffe . 'kay . user interface: marketing: i think it 's easy to r uh to recognise as a giraffe . user interface: yes . giraffe . industrial designer: project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah , the favourite charis characteristic is that the long neck , it can reach everything . and i hope i can also reach a lot with this project . so that 's my favourite animal . project manager: okay . marketing: anything else you need to know ? project manager: could you write the words , uh underneath it ? or more words . marketing: oh , uh industrial designer: tall . user interface: marketing: tall . so , user interface: should i uh marketing: 'kay . user interface: alright . marketing: user interface: so i can draw , but uh uh . well . oh . industrial designer: b marketing: it 's a mouse . user interface: industrial designer: bunny rabbit . marketing: a bunny rabbit . user interface: oh wrong one . uh . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: well uh industrial designer: user interface: you can guess what it is , i hope . marketing: uh-huh . no problem . project manager: little rabbits . user interface: it 's a rabbit . industrial designer: user interface: and uh well uh it 's uh quick , i guess . that 's uh my uh favourite animal . project manager: okay , thank you . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and our final drawing . user interface: marketing: bob ross . user interface: a dolphin . project manager: industrial designer: okay , um . marketing: dolphin . industrial designer: uh i uh draw i i 've drawn a dolphin because of its intelligence . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: right . industrial designer: one of the most intelligent uh project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: animals in our world . user interface: well . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: yeah intelligent . user interface: with an e_ . project manager: industrial designer: i 've i 've uh user interface: industrial designer: eraser . project manager: user interface: you can try out the eraser now . project manager: industrial designer: pen . well not perfect , but okay . project manager: okay , well user interface: project manager: thank you very much . i can see we have some uh drawing talent uh in this group , industrial designer: user interface: not really . project manager: huh ? well , nice animals , nice words . sounds good . um back to business , back to the money part . um from the finance department i have learned that we are aiming for a selling price of twenty five euros . and we 're hoping for a aim of fifty million euros and uh we are hoping to achieve that uh by aiming for an international market . and the production cost will be twelve euro fifty max . okay , well it 's time uh for some discussion . i 've wrote down some examples here of what we can can speak about . uh what 's your experience with remote controls , um what kind of ideas do you have to design a new remote control , maybe for which market segments should we aim , or should we aim for all segments . uh well actually i 'd like to hand the word uh back to you . what 's your experience with remote control ? user interface: i always lose them . industrial designer: a lot of buttons . and you always lose them . marketing: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: a lot of buttons which you do n't use user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or who you do n't use marketing: complex . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: complex . user interface: industrial designer: not user friendly . user interface: search for the buttons , which one is which marketing: no . user interface: and uh industrial designer: marketing: no . industrial designer: marketing: boring . user interface: project manager: boring , it 's not fun to use a remote . industrial designer: marketing: no . industrial designer: mm . marketing: black , all black . user interface: well . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: black colours . marketing: so , yeah . project manager: well maybe we should try to make it fun . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: they use batteries and batteries uh and poor signal . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh . marketing: yeah . user interface: perhaps that you have a lot of road remotes r road con remote controls . marketing: the the angle you have to use . you had different remote controls for different devices . industrial designer: yeah , different remote controls , user interface: yes , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: perhaps you can integrate them or something . marketing: yes . industrial designer: uh for the use of different uh devices . user interface: yes . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: your stereo and your tv marketing: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: and uh . perhaps that 's an idea . marketing: yeah but then again you you still have a lot of buttons , user interface: yeah , that 's right . and which you do n't use . industrial designer: yeah marketing: so industrial designer: but you could uh i thin uh there 's a possibility to g uh to uh to put those buttons uh behind some uh kind of uh protection marketing: flap user interface: right . industrial designer: so that if y y you only get to see them when you need 'em . marketing: yeah . yeah , okay , that 's possible , industrial designer: that 's possible , so that you only get the marketing: but it 'll get very big the the remote control . user interface: yeah . you should just give it to . industrial designer: no n n no , just uh for example you got th uh the same size uh remote control you use everyday , but um the usual buttons such as uh um zapping uh as you call it in dutch . uh and the volume control uh are only the only possible buttons uh to use directly . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: changing channel . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or uh the numbers , of course . marketing: mm-hmm . numbers . industrial designer: but uh not uh the buttons used to search on the the channels on your television . marketing: on and off . industrial designer: you only use those uh the first time , or . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: so . uh . marketing: play , pause , stop . project manager: mm-hmm . so maybe a a minimalist design , the least uh possible amount uh of buttons . industrial designer: yeah , i think so , yeah . marketing: user interface: yes . but you should make sure that you have every button they need on it . because uh things for uh teletext , i dunno uh , w industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm , of course . industrial designer: yeah , uh teletext . marketing: user interface: what 's the name ? project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: think so . marketing: industrial designer: okay . project manager: so you do n't want to bother people with uh loads of buttons , but on the other hand they need many buttons marketing: no . project manager: so they do n't have to get out of their seat . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: but industrial designer: right . marketing: because i think a market will be all kind of people . elderly p el elderly , young people , so . user interface: but if if it 's if it 's international you should uh look in think in britain they have uh different things they can do with the tv , or so uh that you can choose what you want to see . i dunno if you should uh take that in consideration , or that you just should aim for the normal tvs industrial designer: uh . user interface: that uh industrial designer: yeah i i understand . marketing: yeah i think that 's the better one , user interface: and the b_b_c_ . marketing: because i think if you you 're going to target a lot of people and the whole world and only britain then i think the cost will uh rise higher than the twelve fifty , i think . industrial designer: no . user interface: yes . yeah , i do n't know if the they have that anywhere else , though . marketing: i think the aim is better to use uh the whole world and britain , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah , we can leave that . industrial designer: when i think of it uh marketing: not that much . industrial designer: i think the main idea uh of this remote remote control is uh to make it user friendly . so uh i think uh when p uh when uh the customers will buy this remote control , they already have uh the remote control which uh companies uh uh with uh the the standards uh remote control with which comes uh with the television . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . standard deliver . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh marketing: mm . industrial designer: it only has to have uh the most used buttons . you do n't have to integrate the buttons to search the channels on your television . user interface: well industrial designer: in those in that user interface: but marketing: no but user interface: but then you have to to find your other remote control if you want to search . marketing: yeah . yeah , th it it 's i think that 's not user interface: that 's not industrial designer: yeah but i but it is impossible to uh to accommodate uh accommodate uh all the buttons on the s on the difference different televisions sets on one remote control . it 's impossible . user interface: yeah , that 's right . marketing: yeah , okay . industrial designer: because uh for example sony television uh has the opportunity to s to make uh uh to make it possible for to see on one side of the screen uh teletext , and on the other side uh just n uh regular television . uh marketing: no . user interface: yeah that 's uh . marketing: i think n m n most televisions nowadays do this . industrial designer: yeah , but uh they do n't use the same signal , uh on remote control . user interface: well not everywhere . marketing: so i think numerals . industrial designer: because you ca n't use a panasonic uh remote control on a on a philips television . marketing: yeah , but then you have to choose the always with r universal remotes you have to choose the code . user interface: yeah , you can choose the code . industrial designer: okay . okay . okay . okay , marketing: you can use which which type of television you have . that 's no problem . but i think like the two pages on the same screen , like teletext and normal television , that 's that 's nowadays standard , i think . industrial designer: but uh i think that most people uh th uh will buy the remote control because because uh the first they lost the one they lost first one marketing: simplicity . industrial designer: or the first one is broken , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so uh uh perhaps they have a got a an older television , marketing: yeah , yeah . mm-hmm . industrial designer: so that option is not uh optional for those uh people . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah g available . user interface: but the people have a new television , marketing: true . user interface: and c if you look into the future , then they want will want the button , if their thing is broke . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so we should take that in consideration . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , well marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: any more ideas ? user interface: industrial designer: oh mm , no . project manager: no ? user interface: guess not . marketing: of course . industrial designer: things 'll come up . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , yeah well we have some time . let 's see what more i have to tell you . i do n't think there is much left . nope . we 're starting to close . um our next meeting uh will start well we 're a little bit early , but our next meeting will start in in thirty minutes . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: in the meantime uh there 's time for some uh individual actions . um , as you can see , the different roles have uh different tasks . and there 's a ping . user interface: project manager: is it my laptop ? marketing: yeah . project manager: yep . industrial designer: stop the meeting now . project manager: ah well user interface: yeah meeting will close in five minutes . project manager: that 's good , five minutes and uh the meeting 's over , uh right on schedule . industrial designer: okay . project manager: um the marketing expert will uh will take a look at the user requirement specification . the user interface designer will work out the technical functions design . and this was the interface designer ? or the interaction designer . user interface: hmm hmm . industrial designer: mm . project manager: or what was it , i_d_ ? user interface: no interface . industrial designer: no ? marketing: interface . project manager: interface designer , okay , first guess was right . uh will take a look at the the working design . industrial designer: no , user interface: no industrial designer: the industrial designer will take a look at the working design , user interface: the yeah . industrial designer: and the in uh usability interaction user interface: project manager: industrial designer , okay , industrial designer: yeah , okay . okay . project manager: sorry . let 's just use the acronyms . um and of course specific instructions uh will be sent to you uh through your personal coach . user interface: so so i should look at uh what you should be able to do with the remote , or uh , or how i do n't really project manager: uh well those instructions will be uh in the email you will receive uh shortly , i hope . user interface: right . alright . me too . project manager: and of course you have your own uh expertise . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: well uh that was what i had to say . marketing: uh-huh . project manager: uh are there any more questions ? industrial designer: okay . marketing: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: no ? okay well i think then we have to head uh back to our offices and uh start working . industrial designer: okay . marketing: i have one question . project manager: okay , one question ? industrial designer: oh . marketing: where does it says we have to make a remote , because i presumed she did n't know who . okay , no , no problem . project manager: okay user interface: industrial designer: no problem . okay . project manager: we 're still going . marketing: no problem . yeah . project manager: okay , well i expect everything will be much clearer with the instructions we will receive uh shortly . user interface: alright . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay well uh see you all in about thirty minutes , then . industrial designer: alrighty . okay . project manager: thank you very much . user interface: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: yeah . okay . { vocalsound }

marketing thought the market included all kinds of people no matter if they were old and young . so it would be better if their aim was the whole world and britain . users interface suggested that market aim should take the remote control style into consideration about . for instance in britain , people had many things to do with tv . but normal tvs were not like this .

what did marketing disagree with industrial designer about new remote control ? </s> project manager: good morning . sorry ? yeah , busy job . good morning . so oh , good morning everyone . user interface: good morning . industrial designer: good morning . project manager: i 'd uh like to welcome you to our first meeting . i 've prepared a little presentation . my name is and uh i hope you will introduce yourself uh in a few minutes , as will i . um i 'm the project manager of this project , and uh , well i will tell you on what actually is the project . this is uh the agenda for our first meeting . um this is the opening , then we will get i will hope we will get acquainted to each other . we 'll do a little tool training with these two things . we 'll take a look at the project plan . uh there will be time for discussion . actually we have to discuss because we have to create a product . and then we will close this session . um but first of all we i 'd like to uh introduce you to this room . um as you probably have noticed there are little black uh fields on the table . um you have to put your laptop exactly in that field so the little cameras can see your face . um there are cameras industrial designer: project manager: everywhere around the room especially here for your face , of course , and this is n't a pie , it 's a a set of microphones industrial designer: project manager: and there are microphones here also . but please uh do n't be afraid of them . user interface: project manager: they wo n't hurt you . um well uh user interface: well industrial designer: project manager: i said i 'm the project manager and uh i 'm hoping uh for a good project and uh i 'd like to hear uh who you are and what your functions are uh on this project . let 's start with the ladies . user interface: well uh i 'm uh and my uh function is user interface design , i think . industrial designer: user interface: so uh that 's me . industrial designer: okay , uh i 'm uh i 'm the industrial designer and i uh hope to uh look forward to uh a very uh pleasing uh end of this uh project . project manager: okay , so i . user interface: me too . marketing: my name 's . i 'm uh marketing expert . my job is in the company to promote company or promote products to the customers . so i also h hope we have a pleasant uh working with uh with each other . project manager: okay , well we have some expertise from uh different pieces of the of the company . user interface: project manager: that 's good . um well i said uh we 're working on a project and the aim for the project is to to create a to design a new remote control which uh has to be original , trendy and of course , user friendly . and uh i hope we have the expertise to create such a project such a product . um the way we hope to achieve that is uh the following methods . it consists of three phases , namely the functional design , conceptual design and detailed design . as you can see , all of these phases consists of two parts , namely individual work part and a meeting where we will discuss uh our work so far . okay . but first i will uh tell you something about the tools we have here . i already talked about the cameras and microphones , but they are not of uh much use to us . uh we will have to take advantage of these two things . they are smart boards . as you can see , you can give a presentation on them . and uh this one here is a white board . i will uh instruct you about that soon . um as you also noticed uh this presentation document is in our uh project folder and every document you put in this folder uh is uh it is possible to show that here in our meeting room . um and yeah there are available on both smart boards but i think we will uh mainly use this one for the documents in the shared folder . as you can see , this is the same tool bar uh as is located here . um the most functions uh we will use will be to to add a new page , um uh to go back and forward between pages , and of course uh to save it every now and then . um and this is the pen with which you can draw on the board , for instance like this if everything 's okay , user interface: project manager: but i first have to put it on the pen , you see i 'm new to it too . user interface: project manager: um and then you can write things like test or whatever you want . industrial designer: user interface: oh . project manager: as you can see you have to move it a little bit slow , it 's not such a fast board , it 's a smart board but also a slow board . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: uh but you can write things and of course you can also , when you click here , uh erase things , so we have uh est left . and um you can also delete an entire page , but we ask you not to do that . just simply create a new one and uh start all over because we want to save all the results . um does everyone understand this user interface: so we ca n't erase anything . project manager: nice application ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: well you can erase it with the eraser , but uh you should n't delete an entire page , but just create a new blank one . user interface: right . marketing: s project manager: i will delete this one now because we do n't use it yet . user interface: alright . project manager: but you can of course erase when you make a mistake , but do n't uh delete entire pages . and you can also um let 's see i think it 's here uh change the uh colour of your pen , for instance take a blue one and uh change the line width like to five . um that 's what you will need for our first exercise , because i 'm uh going to ask you to draw your favourite animal . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: it 's also to gets to know each other because um i 'm asking three things , uh for that uh drawing , industrial designer: okay . project manager: to do it on a blank sheet , with different colours and i just showed you how to pick a colour , and also with different pen widths which i also showed you . um and a favourite characteristic can be just uh one word . well i 'm not very good at drawing , but i will uh go first and um try to draw user interface: project manager: or maybe you should guess what i 'm drawing , eh . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: good . user interface: industrial designer: hmm . marketing: no . user interface: it 's a sheep . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: dinos industrial designer: seal , a seal . marketing: dinosaur . user interface: marketing: beaver . user interface: a beaver . industrial designer: a be project manager: well it uh user interface: it 's weird . project manager: could be everything . industrial designer: mm . with a tail and a mouth . project manager: maybe when i put on user interface: it has wings ? marketing: turtle . project manager: this thing it could be a turtle , or a snail , industrial designer: snail . user interface: well the snail does n't have legs . industrial designer: okay . project manager: but a turtle has . and those are slow . and i hope our project group will not be slow , industrial designer: project manager: but we will uh work to a good result industrial designer: project manager: and do it uh as fast as we can . okay , time for another animal . would you like to go next ? user interface: marketing: no problem . no problem . industrial designer: sure . user interface: oh right . marketing: mm . it was four months ? user interface: marketing: nice , okay . user interface: well . industrial designer: the hell . user interface: marketing: to make it a little bit easier . user interface: it 's a giraffe . industrial designer: make that cute . user interface: or a dinosaur . marketing: no , it 's a giraffe . 'kay . user interface: marketing: i think it 's easy to r uh to recognise as a giraffe . user interface: yes . giraffe . industrial designer: project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah , the favourite charis characteristic is that the long neck , it can reach everything . and i hope i can also reach a lot with this project . so that 's my favourite animal . project manager: okay . marketing: anything else you need to know ? project manager: could you write the words , uh underneath it ? or more words . marketing: oh , uh industrial designer: tall . user interface: marketing: tall . so , user interface: should i uh marketing: 'kay . user interface: alright . marketing: user interface: so i can draw , but uh uh . well . oh . industrial designer: b marketing: it 's a mouse . user interface: industrial designer: bunny rabbit . marketing: a bunny rabbit . user interface: oh wrong one . uh . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: well uh industrial designer: user interface: you can guess what it is , i hope . marketing: uh-huh . no problem . project manager: little rabbits . user interface: it 's a rabbit . industrial designer: user interface: and uh well uh it 's uh quick , i guess . that 's uh my uh favourite animal . project manager: okay , thank you . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and our final drawing . user interface: marketing: bob ross . user interface: a dolphin . project manager: industrial designer: okay , um . marketing: dolphin . industrial designer: uh i uh draw i i 've drawn a dolphin because of its intelligence . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: right . industrial designer: one of the most intelligent uh project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: animals in our world . user interface: well . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: yeah intelligent . user interface: with an e_ . project manager: industrial designer: i 've i 've uh user interface: industrial designer: eraser . project manager: user interface: you can try out the eraser now . project manager: industrial designer: pen . well not perfect , but okay . project manager: okay , well user interface: project manager: thank you very much . i can see we have some uh drawing talent uh in this group , industrial designer: user interface: not really . project manager: huh ? well , nice animals , nice words . sounds good . um back to business , back to the money part . um from the finance department i have learned that we are aiming for a selling price of twenty five euros . and we 're hoping for a aim of fifty million euros and uh we are hoping to achieve that uh by aiming for an international market . and the production cost will be twelve euro fifty max . okay , well it 's time uh for some discussion . i 've wrote down some examples here of what we can can speak about . uh what 's your experience with remote controls , um what kind of ideas do you have to design a new remote control , maybe for which market segments should we aim , or should we aim for all segments . uh well actually i 'd like to hand the word uh back to you . what 's your experience with remote control ? user interface: i always lose them . industrial designer: a lot of buttons . and you always lose them . marketing: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: a lot of buttons which you do n't use user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or who you do n't use marketing: complex . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: complex . user interface: industrial designer: not user friendly . user interface: search for the buttons , which one is which marketing: no . user interface: and uh industrial designer: marketing: no . industrial designer: marketing: boring . user interface: project manager: boring , it 's not fun to use a remote . industrial designer: marketing: no . industrial designer: mm . marketing: black , all black . user interface: well . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: black colours . marketing: so , yeah . project manager: well maybe we should try to make it fun . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: they use batteries and batteries uh and poor signal . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh . marketing: yeah . user interface: perhaps that you have a lot of road remotes r road con remote controls . marketing: the the angle you have to use . you had different remote controls for different devices . industrial designer: yeah , different remote controls , user interface: yes , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: perhaps you can integrate them or something . marketing: yes . industrial designer: uh for the use of different uh devices . user interface: yes . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: your stereo and your tv marketing: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: and uh . perhaps that 's an idea . marketing: yeah but then again you you still have a lot of buttons , user interface: yeah , that 's right . and which you do n't use . industrial designer: yeah marketing: so industrial designer: but you could uh i thin uh there 's a possibility to g uh to uh to put those buttons uh behind some uh kind of uh protection marketing: flap user interface: right . industrial designer: so that if y y you only get to see them when you need 'em . marketing: yeah . yeah , okay , that 's possible , industrial designer: that 's possible , so that you only get the marketing: but it 'll get very big the the remote control . user interface: yeah . you should just give it to . industrial designer: no n n no , just uh for example you got th uh the same size uh remote control you use everyday , but um the usual buttons such as uh um zapping uh as you call it in dutch . uh and the volume control uh are only the only possible buttons uh to use directly . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: changing channel . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or uh the numbers , of course . marketing: mm-hmm . numbers . industrial designer: but uh not uh the buttons used to search on the the channels on your television . marketing: on and off . industrial designer: you only use those uh the first time , or . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: so . uh . marketing: play , pause , stop . project manager: mm-hmm . so maybe a a minimalist design , the least uh possible amount uh of buttons . industrial designer: yeah , i think so , yeah . marketing: user interface: yes . but you should make sure that you have every button they need on it . because uh things for uh teletext , i dunno uh , w industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm , of course . industrial designer: yeah , uh teletext . marketing: user interface: what 's the name ? project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: think so . marketing: industrial designer: okay . project manager: so you do n't want to bother people with uh loads of buttons , but on the other hand they need many buttons marketing: no . project manager: so they do n't have to get out of their seat . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: but industrial designer: right . marketing: because i think a market will be all kind of people . elderly p el elderly , young people , so . user interface: but if if it 's if it 's international you should uh look in think in britain they have uh different things they can do with the tv , or so uh that you can choose what you want to see . i dunno if you should uh take that in consideration , or that you just should aim for the normal tvs industrial designer: uh . user interface: that uh industrial designer: yeah i i understand . marketing: yeah i think that 's the better one , user interface: and the b_b_c_ . marketing: because i think if you you 're going to target a lot of people and the whole world and only britain then i think the cost will uh rise higher than the twelve fifty , i think . industrial designer: no . user interface: yes . yeah , i do n't know if the they have that anywhere else , though . marketing: i think the aim is better to use uh the whole world and britain , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah , we can leave that . industrial designer: when i think of it uh marketing: not that much . industrial designer: i think the main idea uh of this remote remote control is uh to make it user friendly . so uh i think uh when p uh when uh the customers will buy this remote control , they already have uh the remote control which uh companies uh uh with uh the the standards uh remote control with which comes uh with the television . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . standard deliver . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh marketing: mm . industrial designer: it only has to have uh the most used buttons . you do n't have to integrate the buttons to search the channels on your television . user interface: well industrial designer: in those in that user interface: but marketing: no but user interface: but then you have to to find your other remote control if you want to search . marketing: yeah . yeah , th it it 's i think that 's not user interface: that 's not industrial designer: yeah but i but it is impossible to uh to accommodate uh accommodate uh all the buttons on the s on the difference different televisions sets on one remote control . it 's impossible . user interface: yeah , that 's right . marketing: yeah , okay . industrial designer: because uh for example sony television uh has the opportunity to s to make uh uh to make it possible for to see on one side of the screen uh teletext , and on the other side uh just n uh regular television . uh marketing: no . user interface: yeah that 's uh . marketing: i think n m n most televisions nowadays do this . industrial designer: yeah , but uh they do n't use the same signal , uh on remote control . user interface: well not everywhere . marketing: so i think numerals . industrial designer: because you ca n't use a panasonic uh remote control on a on a philips television . marketing: yeah , but then you have to choose the always with r universal remotes you have to choose the code . user interface: yeah , you can choose the code . industrial designer: okay . okay . okay . okay , marketing: you can use which which type of television you have . that 's no problem . but i think like the two pages on the same screen , like teletext and normal television , that 's that 's nowadays standard , i think . industrial designer: but uh i think that most people uh th uh will buy the remote control because because uh the first they lost the one they lost first one marketing: simplicity . industrial designer: or the first one is broken , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so uh uh perhaps they have a got a an older television , marketing: yeah , yeah . mm-hmm . industrial designer: so that option is not uh optional for those uh people . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah g available . user interface: but the people have a new television , marketing: true . user interface: and c if you look into the future , then they want will want the button , if their thing is broke . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so we should take that in consideration . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , well marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: any more ideas ? user interface: industrial designer: oh mm , no . project manager: no ? user interface: guess not . marketing: of course . industrial designer: things 'll come up . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , yeah well we have some time . let 's see what more i have to tell you . i do n't think there is much left . nope . we 're starting to close . um our next meeting uh will start well we 're a little bit early , but our next meeting will start in in thirty minutes . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: in the meantime uh there 's time for some uh individual actions . um , as you can see , the different roles have uh different tasks . and there 's a ping . user interface: project manager: is it my laptop ? marketing: yeah . project manager: yep . industrial designer: stop the meeting now . project manager: ah well user interface: yeah meeting will close in five minutes . project manager: that 's good , five minutes and uh the meeting 's over , uh right on schedule . industrial designer: okay . project manager: um the marketing expert will uh will take a look at the user requirement specification . the user interface designer will work out the technical functions design . and this was the interface designer ? or the interaction designer . user interface: hmm hmm . industrial designer: mm . project manager: or what was it , i_d_ ? user interface: no interface . industrial designer: no ? marketing: interface . project manager: interface designer , okay , first guess was right . uh will take a look at the the working design . industrial designer: no , user interface: no industrial designer: the industrial designer will take a look at the working design , user interface: the yeah . industrial designer: and the in uh usability interaction user interface: project manager: industrial designer , okay , industrial designer: yeah , okay . okay . project manager: sorry . let 's just use the acronyms . um and of course specific instructions uh will be sent to you uh through your personal coach . user interface: so so i should look at uh what you should be able to do with the remote , or uh , or how i do n't really project manager: uh well those instructions will be uh in the email you will receive uh shortly , i hope . user interface: right . alright . me too . project manager: and of course you have your own uh expertise . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: well uh that was what i had to say . marketing: uh-huh . project manager: uh are there any more questions ? industrial designer: okay . marketing: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: no ? okay well i think then we have to head uh back to our offices and uh start working . industrial designer: okay . marketing: i have one question . project manager: okay , one question ? industrial designer: oh . marketing: where does it says we have to make a remote , because i presumed she did n't know who . okay , no , no problem . project manager: okay user interface: industrial designer: no problem . okay . project manager: we 're still going . marketing: no problem . yeah . project manager: okay , well i expect everything will be much clearer with the instructions we will receive uh shortly . user interface: alright . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay well uh see you all in about thirty minutes , then . industrial designer: alrighty . okay . project manager: thank you very much . user interface: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: yeah . okay . { vocalsound }

industrial designer thought it was impossible to accommodate different tvs on one remote control . because you ca n't use a panasonic remote control on a philips television . however , marketing believed that this problem could be solved by a universal remote with code .

what is the target population of the new remote control ? </s> project manager: good morning . sorry ? yeah , busy job . good morning . so oh , good morning everyone . user interface: good morning . industrial designer: good morning . project manager: i 'd uh like to welcome you to our first meeting . i 've prepared a little presentation . my name is and uh i hope you will introduce yourself uh in a few minutes , as will i . um i 'm the project manager of this project , and uh , well i will tell you on what actually is the project . this is uh the agenda for our first meeting . um this is the opening , then we will get i will hope we will get acquainted to each other . we 'll do a little tool training with these two things . we 'll take a look at the project plan . uh there will be time for discussion . actually we have to discuss because we have to create a product . and then we will close this session . um but first of all we i 'd like to uh introduce you to this room . um as you probably have noticed there are little black uh fields on the table . um you have to put your laptop exactly in that field so the little cameras can see your face . um there are cameras industrial designer: project manager: everywhere around the room especially here for your face , of course , and this is n't a pie , it 's a a set of microphones industrial designer: project manager: and there are microphones here also . but please uh do n't be afraid of them . user interface: project manager: they wo n't hurt you . um well uh user interface: well industrial designer: project manager: i said i 'm the project manager and uh i 'm hoping uh for a good project and uh i 'd like to hear uh who you are and what your functions are uh on this project . let 's start with the ladies . user interface: well uh i 'm uh and my uh function is user interface design , i think . industrial designer: user interface: so uh that 's me . industrial designer: okay , uh i 'm uh i 'm the industrial designer and i uh hope to uh look forward to uh a very uh pleasing uh end of this uh project . project manager: okay , so i . user interface: me too . marketing: my name 's . i 'm uh marketing expert . my job is in the company to promote company or promote products to the customers . so i also h hope we have a pleasant uh working with uh with each other . project manager: okay , well we have some expertise from uh different pieces of the of the company . user interface: project manager: that 's good . um well i said uh we 're working on a project and the aim for the project is to to create a to design a new remote control which uh has to be original , trendy and of course , user friendly . and uh i hope we have the expertise to create such a project such a product . um the way we hope to achieve that is uh the following methods . it consists of three phases , namely the functional design , conceptual design and detailed design . as you can see , all of these phases consists of two parts , namely individual work part and a meeting where we will discuss uh our work so far . okay . but first i will uh tell you something about the tools we have here . i already talked about the cameras and microphones , but they are not of uh much use to us . uh we will have to take advantage of these two things . they are smart boards . as you can see , you can give a presentation on them . and uh this one here is a white board . i will uh instruct you about that soon . um as you also noticed uh this presentation document is in our uh project folder and every document you put in this folder uh is uh it is possible to show that here in our meeting room . um and yeah there are available on both smart boards but i think we will uh mainly use this one for the documents in the shared folder . as you can see , this is the same tool bar uh as is located here . um the most functions uh we will use will be to to add a new page , um uh to go back and forward between pages , and of course uh to save it every now and then . um and this is the pen with which you can draw on the board , for instance like this if everything 's okay , user interface: project manager: but i first have to put it on the pen , you see i 'm new to it too . user interface: project manager: um and then you can write things like test or whatever you want . industrial designer: user interface: oh . project manager: as you can see you have to move it a little bit slow , it 's not such a fast board , it 's a smart board but also a slow board . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: uh but you can write things and of course you can also , when you click here , uh erase things , so we have uh est left . and um you can also delete an entire page , but we ask you not to do that . just simply create a new one and uh start all over because we want to save all the results . um does everyone understand this user interface: so we ca n't erase anything . project manager: nice application ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: well you can erase it with the eraser , but uh you should n't delete an entire page , but just create a new blank one . user interface: right . marketing: s project manager: i will delete this one now because we do n't use it yet . user interface: alright . project manager: but you can of course erase when you make a mistake , but do n't uh delete entire pages . and you can also um let 's see i think it 's here uh change the uh colour of your pen , for instance take a blue one and uh change the line width like to five . um that 's what you will need for our first exercise , because i 'm uh going to ask you to draw your favourite animal . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: it 's also to gets to know each other because um i 'm asking three things , uh for that uh drawing , industrial designer: okay . project manager: to do it on a blank sheet , with different colours and i just showed you how to pick a colour , and also with different pen widths which i also showed you . um and a favourite characteristic can be just uh one word . well i 'm not very good at drawing , but i will uh go first and um try to draw user interface: project manager: or maybe you should guess what i 'm drawing , eh . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: good . user interface: industrial designer: hmm . marketing: no . user interface: it 's a sheep . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: dinos industrial designer: seal , a seal . marketing: dinosaur . user interface: marketing: beaver . user interface: a beaver . industrial designer: a be project manager: well it uh user interface: it 's weird . project manager: could be everything . industrial designer: mm . with a tail and a mouth . project manager: maybe when i put on user interface: it has wings ? marketing: turtle . project manager: this thing it could be a turtle , or a snail , industrial designer: snail . user interface: well the snail does n't have legs . industrial designer: okay . project manager: but a turtle has . and those are slow . and i hope our project group will not be slow , industrial designer: project manager: but we will uh work to a good result industrial designer: project manager: and do it uh as fast as we can . okay , time for another animal . would you like to go next ? user interface: marketing: no problem . no problem . industrial designer: sure . user interface: oh right . marketing: mm . it was four months ? user interface: marketing: nice , okay . user interface: well . industrial designer: the hell . user interface: marketing: to make it a little bit easier . user interface: it 's a giraffe . industrial designer: make that cute . user interface: or a dinosaur . marketing: no , it 's a giraffe . 'kay . user interface: marketing: i think it 's easy to r uh to recognise as a giraffe . user interface: yes . giraffe . industrial designer: project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah , the favourite charis characteristic is that the long neck , it can reach everything . and i hope i can also reach a lot with this project . so that 's my favourite animal . project manager: okay . marketing: anything else you need to know ? project manager: could you write the words , uh underneath it ? or more words . marketing: oh , uh industrial designer: tall . user interface: marketing: tall . so , user interface: should i uh marketing: 'kay . user interface: alright . marketing: user interface: so i can draw , but uh uh . well . oh . industrial designer: b marketing: it 's a mouse . user interface: industrial designer: bunny rabbit . marketing: a bunny rabbit . user interface: oh wrong one . uh . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: well uh industrial designer: user interface: you can guess what it is , i hope . marketing: uh-huh . no problem . project manager: little rabbits . user interface: it 's a rabbit . industrial designer: user interface: and uh well uh it 's uh quick , i guess . that 's uh my uh favourite animal . project manager: okay , thank you . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and our final drawing . user interface: marketing: bob ross . user interface: a dolphin . project manager: industrial designer: okay , um . marketing: dolphin . industrial designer: uh i uh draw i i 've drawn a dolphin because of its intelligence . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: right . industrial designer: one of the most intelligent uh project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: animals in our world . user interface: well . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: yeah intelligent . user interface: with an e_ . project manager: industrial designer: i 've i 've uh user interface: industrial designer: eraser . project manager: user interface: you can try out the eraser now . project manager: industrial designer: pen . well not perfect , but okay . project manager: okay , well user interface: project manager: thank you very much . i can see we have some uh drawing talent uh in this group , industrial designer: user interface: not really . project manager: huh ? well , nice animals , nice words . sounds good . um back to business , back to the money part . um from the finance department i have learned that we are aiming for a selling price of twenty five euros . and we 're hoping for a aim of fifty million euros and uh we are hoping to achieve that uh by aiming for an international market . and the production cost will be twelve euro fifty max . okay , well it 's time uh for some discussion . i 've wrote down some examples here of what we can can speak about . uh what 's your experience with remote controls , um what kind of ideas do you have to design a new remote control , maybe for which market segments should we aim , or should we aim for all segments . uh well actually i 'd like to hand the word uh back to you . what 's your experience with remote control ? user interface: i always lose them . industrial designer: a lot of buttons . and you always lose them . marketing: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: a lot of buttons which you do n't use user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or who you do n't use marketing: complex . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: complex . user interface: industrial designer: not user friendly . user interface: search for the buttons , which one is which marketing: no . user interface: and uh industrial designer: marketing: no . industrial designer: marketing: boring . user interface: project manager: boring , it 's not fun to use a remote . industrial designer: marketing: no . industrial designer: mm . marketing: black , all black . user interface: well . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: black colours . marketing: so , yeah . project manager: well maybe we should try to make it fun . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: they use batteries and batteries uh and poor signal . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh . marketing: yeah . user interface: perhaps that you have a lot of road remotes r road con remote controls . marketing: the the angle you have to use . you had different remote controls for different devices . industrial designer: yeah , different remote controls , user interface: yes , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: perhaps you can integrate them or something . marketing: yes . industrial designer: uh for the use of different uh devices . user interface: yes . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: your stereo and your tv marketing: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: and uh . perhaps that 's an idea . marketing: yeah but then again you you still have a lot of buttons , user interface: yeah , that 's right . and which you do n't use . industrial designer: yeah marketing: so industrial designer: but you could uh i thin uh there 's a possibility to g uh to uh to put those buttons uh behind some uh kind of uh protection marketing: flap user interface: right . industrial designer: so that if y y you only get to see them when you need 'em . marketing: yeah . yeah , okay , that 's possible , industrial designer: that 's possible , so that you only get the marketing: but it 'll get very big the the remote control . user interface: yeah . you should just give it to . industrial designer: no n n no , just uh for example you got th uh the same size uh remote control you use everyday , but um the usual buttons such as uh um zapping uh as you call it in dutch . uh and the volume control uh are only the only possible buttons uh to use directly . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: changing channel . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or uh the numbers , of course . marketing: mm-hmm . numbers . industrial designer: but uh not uh the buttons used to search on the the channels on your television . marketing: on and off . industrial designer: you only use those uh the first time , or . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: so . uh . marketing: play , pause , stop . project manager: mm-hmm . so maybe a a minimalist design , the least uh possible amount uh of buttons . industrial designer: yeah , i think so , yeah . marketing: user interface: yes . but you should make sure that you have every button they need on it . because uh things for uh teletext , i dunno uh , w industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm , of course . industrial designer: yeah , uh teletext . marketing: user interface: what 's the name ? project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: think so . marketing: industrial designer: okay . project manager: so you do n't want to bother people with uh loads of buttons , but on the other hand they need many buttons marketing: no . project manager: so they do n't have to get out of their seat . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: but industrial designer: right . marketing: because i think a market will be all kind of people . elderly p el elderly , young people , so . user interface: but if if it 's if it 's international you should uh look in think in britain they have uh different things they can do with the tv , or so uh that you can choose what you want to see . i dunno if you should uh take that in consideration , or that you just should aim for the normal tvs industrial designer: uh . user interface: that uh industrial designer: yeah i i understand . marketing: yeah i think that 's the better one , user interface: and the b_b_c_ . marketing: because i think if you you 're going to target a lot of people and the whole world and only britain then i think the cost will uh rise higher than the twelve fifty , i think . industrial designer: no . user interface: yes . yeah , i do n't know if the they have that anywhere else , though . marketing: i think the aim is better to use uh the whole world and britain , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah , we can leave that . industrial designer: when i think of it uh marketing: not that much . industrial designer: i think the main idea uh of this remote remote control is uh to make it user friendly . so uh i think uh when p uh when uh the customers will buy this remote control , they already have uh the remote control which uh companies uh uh with uh the the standards uh remote control with which comes uh with the television . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . standard deliver . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh marketing: mm . industrial designer: it only has to have uh the most used buttons . you do n't have to integrate the buttons to search the channels on your television . user interface: well industrial designer: in those in that user interface: but marketing: no but user interface: but then you have to to find your other remote control if you want to search . marketing: yeah . yeah , th it it 's i think that 's not user interface: that 's not industrial designer: yeah but i but it is impossible to uh to accommodate uh accommodate uh all the buttons on the s on the difference different televisions sets on one remote control . it 's impossible . user interface: yeah , that 's right . marketing: yeah , okay . industrial designer: because uh for example sony television uh has the opportunity to s to make uh uh to make it possible for to see on one side of the screen uh teletext , and on the other side uh just n uh regular television . uh marketing: no . user interface: yeah that 's uh . marketing: i think n m n most televisions nowadays do this . industrial designer: yeah , but uh they do n't use the same signal , uh on remote control . user interface: well not everywhere . marketing: so i think numerals . industrial designer: because you ca n't use a panasonic uh remote control on a on a philips television . marketing: yeah , but then you have to choose the always with r universal remotes you have to choose the code . user interface: yeah , you can choose the code . industrial designer: okay . okay . okay . okay , marketing: you can use which which type of television you have . that 's no problem . but i think like the two pages on the same screen , like teletext and normal television , that 's that 's nowadays standard , i think . industrial designer: but uh i think that most people uh th uh will buy the remote control because because uh the first they lost the one they lost first one marketing: simplicity . industrial designer: or the first one is broken , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so uh uh perhaps they have a got a an older television , marketing: yeah , yeah . mm-hmm . industrial designer: so that option is not uh optional for those uh people . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah g available . user interface: but the people have a new television , marketing: true . user interface: and c if you look into the future , then they want will want the button , if their thing is broke . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so we should take that in consideration . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , well marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: any more ideas ? user interface: industrial designer: oh mm , no . project manager: no ? user interface: guess not . marketing: of course . industrial designer: things 'll come up . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , yeah well we have some time . let 's see what more i have to tell you . i do n't think there is much left . nope . we 're starting to close . um our next meeting uh will start well we 're a little bit early , but our next meeting will start in in thirty minutes . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: in the meantime uh there 's time for some uh individual actions . um , as you can see , the different roles have uh different tasks . and there 's a ping . user interface: project manager: is it my laptop ? marketing: yeah . project manager: yep . industrial designer: stop the meeting now . project manager: ah well user interface: yeah meeting will close in five minutes . project manager: that 's good , five minutes and uh the meeting 's over , uh right on schedule . industrial designer: okay . project manager: um the marketing expert will uh will take a look at the user requirement specification . the user interface designer will work out the technical functions design . and this was the interface designer ? or the interaction designer . user interface: hmm hmm . industrial designer: mm . project manager: or what was it , i_d_ ? user interface: no interface . industrial designer: no ? marketing: interface . project manager: interface designer , okay , first guess was right . uh will take a look at the the working design . industrial designer: no , user interface: no industrial designer: the industrial designer will take a look at the working design , user interface: the yeah . industrial designer: and the in uh usability interaction user interface: project manager: industrial designer , okay , industrial designer: yeah , okay . okay . project manager: sorry . let 's just use the acronyms . um and of course specific instructions uh will be sent to you uh through your personal coach . user interface: so so i should look at uh what you should be able to do with the remote , or uh , or how i do n't really project manager: uh well those instructions will be uh in the email you will receive uh shortly , i hope . user interface: right . alright . me too . project manager: and of course you have your own uh expertise . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: well uh that was what i had to say . marketing: uh-huh . project manager: uh are there any more questions ? industrial designer: okay . marketing: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: no ? okay well i think then we have to head uh back to our offices and uh start working . industrial designer: okay . marketing: i have one question . project manager: okay , one question ? industrial designer: oh . marketing: where does it says we have to make a remote , because i presumed she did n't know who . okay , no , no problem . project manager: okay user interface: industrial designer: no problem . okay . project manager: we 're still going . marketing: no problem . yeah . project manager: okay , well i expect everything will be much clearer with the instructions we will receive uh shortly . user interface: alright . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay well uh see you all in about thirty minutes , then . industrial designer: alrighty . okay . project manager: thank you very much . user interface: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: yeah . okay . { vocalsound }

industrial designer thought customers would buy a new remote control when they lost or broke the first one . they also bought a new one if they got an older tv . on the other hand , user interface thought in the future , customers would need remote control with buttons .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: okay , welcome to the detailed design meeting . again , i 'm gon na take minutes . oh , we 're gon na have a prototype presentation first . user interface: project manager: uh , who 's gon na give the prototype presentation ? you two guys ? okay . go ahead . industrial designer: yes . user interface: . marketing: . user interface: coffee . marketing: industrial designer: 'kay , we 've made a prototype . um , we 've got uh uh our aspects from the last meeting . uh , especially we looked at the form , material and the colour . um , we 've uh drawn here the p prototype . the logo is uh is uh is pretty uh obvious to see on the on the remote control , user interface: industrial designer: but it is necessary when you want to build your uh company f to a level higher . um , our interface elements , there are shown in the in the drawing . maybe you can uh point them uh the functions . user interface: uh , well the uh all the functions are discussed uh i think the most of the functions are uh uh obvious . uh , it 's a little bit . uh , power button . uh then the the the nine uh channels . project manager: user interface: uh the volume uh uh at the side , and the other side is the programmes . and then we had uh just uh two buttons , we place them in the middle , uh the menu , and for the teletext project manager: oh no , the the the mute button misses now . user interface: i thought that was th marketing: alright , i project manager: do y do you user interface: oh , the mute button . project manager: did we want to have a m mute button ? industrial designer: but uh that marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it 's uh here then , in the middle . user interface: yeah . project manager: huh . marketing: alright , and uh you got ta point out which is the volume um uh button and which is the programme button . industrial designer: yes , um user interface: well , yeah mo uh mo industrial designer: we 've disc user interface: yeah , well most of them are right-handed . industrial designer: most of the users marketing: yeah , but you you got ta make it clear on the on user interface: yeah well , i do n't have time in uh anymore on the industrial designer: yes , y there there will be a p a little a little p_ on that and a little uh yeah . marketing: yeah , and a and a triangle on that . user interface: oh yeah , just progr programme above , i think . marketing: yes . next to that i kinda miss a zero actually . user interface: project manager: wait , there 's was one thing i wanted to ask . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: project manager: uh , there are different ways for remote controls to uh do uh like marketing: project manager: uh d i call it teens and twenties . uh , y th th th the two numbers . industrial designer: yes . marketing: all n no , that 's um kinda dependent on the television . user interface: yeah , true , yeah . industrial designer: it 's a television . yes . project manager: yeah , but do we have do we need extra buttons , user interface: uh project manager: for example some uh some have to user interface: uh i think so . marketing: i think industrial designer: yes , yes , you have you have a lot of standard buttons that has to be uh on it , uh th with the one and a double uh uh marketing: yeah , i think you should add user interface: zero ? marketing: a cross , or whatever . yeah , line . project manager: yeah , but you do n't you do n't actually need them , user interface: may maybe here ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: becau b l a lot of remote controls work that y when y that you when you fir you push the one first , then you have a couple of seconds user interface: yeah . and then a second . marketing: no , that 's dependent on the television . project manager: no , i do n't think so . industrial designer: yes , you have televisions , then you have to , you know , you have to uh press marketing: i do know so . user interface: is it depending on television ? project manager: nah , i do n't think so really , marketing: yeah . project manager: because you have a i know some remote controls that do n't have these buttons , but you still can , know , obviously you can still select the twenty uh a number in the twenty or in the ten . industrial designer: yes , but but a lot uh marketing: yes , but uh uh no uh remote control nowadays are um they come with the television . or actually , the other way around . project manager: no , i think uh i really think it 's n marketing: but project manager: because you can when when you put a button on it with like one and uh then a dash , it 's the same thing as when you just push the one , marketing: yeah . project manager: because it i it first gives you the functionality of that that uh separate button you also had to uh apply . industrial designer: yes , but marketing: yeah , well but su if industrial designer: some televisions do n't accept uh that that project manager: yeah , because that 's i it 's for television . it 's exact the same thing . industrial designer: no , no , but s marketing: no no no . so some television respond differently . look , if uh i i project manager: no , listen listen . when you push the button , the remote control gives a signal . i in th in the first place it gives a signal which it would also send when you put a separate button on it . marketing: yes . yes , that 's true . project manager: the one with dash , that signal gi and when y whe when you do n't push another button on the remote control within five seconds , then the remote control gives a signal for channel one . user interface: yeah . true . marketing: no project manager: i think it works that way , really . marketing: no , it it it works uh if you have n't got uh a special button for it , uh if you push a one , then on your television there will appear a one and a a line , which is an empty space . project manager: yeah , but it 's exact the same that w would appear when you put a separate button push a separate button . industrial designer: yes , but some some old televisions uh you have to uh click on uh a special button , uh then you go to a a next level , you can push two buttons . project manager: yeah , but you do n't underst uh you do n't understand my point . marketing: yep . true . project manager: i think it 's exact the same thing when y industrial designer: you want yes , but some television do n't support it . project manager: no , but then they would a would also support that button , because it 's the same thing . user interface: but the ex project manager: listen , with that that 's that special but button you 're talking about , eh ? that 's just a signal to recei ju they send a t signal to the v tv tv that they have to put a one in on your screen and a dash , which you can pu so you can uh still put another number on it . when you do n't have that separate button , and you push y one , it 's exactly the same thing . do y you the remote control gives that same signal as it would give when you only had industrial designer: no , marketing: no , s some some televisions need the input first uh and and you c industrial designer: a remote can project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yes , project manager: but you give the input . industrial designer: so they need no , they need project manager: you push the one . that 's the same thing as the button with the one and it marketing: no , that 's not true . project manager: yes it it is . marketing: it 's simply not true . it 's simply not true . project manager: think about it . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: no , user interface: you uh you can wai when you push the one you can show on the telly a one and just a dash , and then wait uh two uh seconds or something industrial designer: but uh marketing: uh project manager: and it 's the same thing what happens and a g remote control gives another signal after five seconds that is just one . marketing: no , remote control does n't give signal after five seconds . remote control is a stupid thing . if you push a button , it sends it immediately to to the television . project manager: yeah , that 's true . yeah , but i m uh but it 's i i know for sure that some televisions that w th th the remote control supplied , only ha has the c these buttons with a one and a dash and a two and a dash , but when you use a bu a n remote control that does n't sport these buttons , it still works . industrial designer: yeah , it project manager: but okay , we we 'll impl marketing: no , definitely not . definitely not . user interface: we 'll discuss them in the usability lab . project manager: no , we 'll apply them then for now . user interface: uh eva evaluation . marketing: user interface: i do n't know uh i do n't know if if it 's it 's necessary . project manager: yeah , app just apply them next to the zero , the one and the two . user interface: yeah ? project manager: yeah , i think so . yeah , for now , if we do n't know for sure whether user interface: okay . industrial designer: and the button for the scart uh audio video uh external input . marketing: yes . user interface: ach . project manager: yeah but marketing: uh , you can access that uh via zero , and then minus , i guess . project manager: okay . what i said about uh the remote control sending another signal , that that might not be true , marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: but i still think i it it all tvs in some ways support it , i do n't know . i think it 's more c is m maybe we do n't uh we both do n't really understand how it i how it really works , industrial designer: no , no . project manager: but i think there 's more to in than wha than what you just said . industrial designer: uh , remote control sends one signal at one button uh press . project manager: i do think that uh m tvs support mur multiple kind of remote controls . m industrial designer: uh , some n some televisions when when you want to go further than uh ten project manager: th wo n't work wi with uh industrial designer: no , you have to you have to uh give the television uh two or more signals . project manager: to have that special button . industrial designer: when you uh press one button , you give one signal . and the older televisions need more signals to go a level higher . but project manager: okay , well we 'll see . marketing: yep . industrial designer: when you make the technology that that it will uh give more signals , it could work , but just a basic idea of of of the most uh most y most common uh and simple uh operations on the remote . marketing: okay . i kinda miss the docking station . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes . it 's here on the user interface: marketing: user interface: well it industrial designer: user interface: yeah , uh there 's nothing i think it 's pretty basic , industrial designer: we came uh user interface: the the there 's no fu industrial designer: yes . user interface: there 's one there 's one button , marketing: no nothing really trendy about it . user interface: that 's wha there 's there 's there 's one function and that 's n the one button when you want to find it . industrial designer: but maybe we can maybe we can make the docking station uh uh a bit standard for for uh the other products we sell , marketing: the button . industrial designer: because real real reaction sells more products than only remote controls . so maybe we can uh use the docking station , for example , uh m_p_ three players or or uh marketing: yep . industrial designer: uh hearing devices . marketing: i think that 's very difficult , because of different shapes of uh uh devices . industrial designer: yes , but when you put that same volt voltages on it , you can put uh when the when the when uh o the the the lowest part of it , when it 's o the same as the other products , you can put it all on the same uh marketing: yeah , of course . mm-hmm . well it it got it it has got to fit into the shape , of course . industrial designer: yes , but we can make marketing: the technology and the voltage can be the same . that 's uh that 's true . but uh i if you all make the m having a bottom like this , then they all fit . industrial designer: no , we can make uh make the most lowest part all the same . marketing: yeah , that 's true , but uh industrial designer: when when the the recharger has a has a bit what points out , we can place all on top of it . just have to be big enough for the biggest marketing: yes , but uh i i g should n't it fall then ? it is n't going to fall down ? that 's a bit uh industrial designer: no , when you make it large enough no it it will not . marketing: yeah , i think industrial designer: but then it 's a little bit marketing: no , but if if like this , i 'll i 'll point it out , if you got uh a a a base a base like this , industrial designer: but it 's just an idea . marketing: i wo n't draw it really . if you got a base which is uh as big as this industrial designer: but it 's flat it 's flat as as this , so we can p make all the products as flat as this . user interface: you can . but i i i it 's backwards . marketing: yeah sure , but if you got if you got a tiny player , it can industrial designer: yes , but when you make uh uh a bit of big user interface: but it 's it 's backwards . it 's leaning . it 's leaning backwards , i think , in the in the docking station . marketing: yeah . uh , wha what you could do if you uh from the bottom user interface: that 's text . marketing: oh , right , help . project manager: but user interface: marketing: uh , you could make like a hole in it , you know , of uh in in the industrial designer: yes , little holer littler uh , little products go deeper in it . marketing: yeah . that i that is possible , yep . project manager: well let 's ha let 's talk about the docking station later , because uh maybe we have we have to uh consider the docking station anyway , because we have some uh cost issues still to come . marketing: yeah , sure , you 're right . industrial designer: yes . and uh uh marketing: oh . project manager: but we have to look n i do n't know . industrial designer: the f the look and feel would be great on this uh remote control , because uh you always uh will uh pick up the remote control in the in the smallest uh area . marketing: i do n't like the colours . mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: then your uh left thumb of uh your right thumb is uh near the programme uh button , which is the most common used uh function , and all the other buttons are available for your uh thumb . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so it 's it 's it 's really good design . marketing: yeah . alright . project manager: yes . that 's it ? industrial designer: yes , uh on the side uh there will be a strip of rubber , and in the middle uh there is uh a hard uh a hard material , a bit hard plastic with a light uh behind it . marketing: the light . okay . and other lights ? project manager: i think added lights are gon na be a problem too . industrial designer: yes , we can make also n neon lights on it , or or the buttons that can make uh light on it . marketing: no , o on the on the front . yeah , okay . maybe the uh the logo . industrial designer: yes . user interface: lights ? industrial designer: but , it will also uh uh use batteries , marketing: yeah , why not ? industrial designer: and do we want to marketing: of course . project manager: okay . for now , uh this is uh is good enough . user interface: mm . project manager: yeah , what was uh on the marketing: okay . industrial designer: the all the aspects of the interface buttons were uh project manager: okay , but in the oh yeah , the colour , because we 're gon na use uh one colour for the the plastic enclosure and one colour for the rubber , is n't it ? then we 're gon na do the buttons in the i are we 're gon na have rubber buttons . industrial designer: yes . project manager: and they 're be a they 'll be in the same colour as the rubber on the side . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes . marketing: uh , in the same colour as the side . user interface: yeah . yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah , i think i think that 'll be good . project manager: okay . and i think we should use a a darker colour for the um plastic , and maybe some more m brighter and flashy stuff industrial designer: yes , maybe we can use on the on the lights on the side we can use uh uh multiple uh lights , marketing: yes . industrial designer: so it will uh project manager: yeah , we 'll talk about the lights later . 'cause i also don yeah , industrial designer: yes . marketing: yep . project manager: it 's depends on the costs and such . but uh , and we have to agree uh upon the exact colours , marketing: yeah . project manager: but may i dunno if that 's important , but we 'll talk about that later . okay , for now this is this is okay . marketing: we will . project manager: um , the next p y you gon na give a presentation too ? uh , i have to see the agenda . industrial designer: no . marketing: well , uh yeah , i i 'm gon na do something right there , yeah . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: detail design . marketing: we got ta do that on the right the most right-most screen , because the leftmost project manager: evaluation criteria . marketing: yep , that 's me . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: alright . i will be needing that image , so leave it please . um go away . right , we 're gon na evaluate that design according to a few points . um , we g the four of us are going to do that um together . project manager: marketing: i wan na have a colour over here , come on . right , the remote is not ugly , a bit weird sentence , but the positive things has to be on the left , so i said not ugly instead of ugly . user interface: marketing: uh , what would you say , we we got ta give points to uh to all of these to evaluate uh that design , and please forget the drawing skills of these guys . user interface: project manager: okay . industrial designer: marketing: the remote control is not ugly . how do you feel ? project manager: yeah , i think four maybe would be appropriate , because it 's yeah , maybe it really depends on taste . uh , i mean it 's kind of , our design . it 's marketing: yes . project manager: so if maybe a lot of people find it really ugly , you know , o other people find it really cool . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: background colour . project manager: i do n't know or uh i do n't know how you casting . yeah . industrial designer: i think i think the the fronts will give it a more uh uh uh less uglier uh side , because you can uh make it in your own marketing: how do you guys feel ? the different designs . industrial designer: yes , you can make it in your own uh marketing: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: more to your own personality or or house style . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah , but we d we did n't we 're we 're not planning to use fronts , i believe . marketing: no , not not fronts , but different designs . project manager: with a colour a co a colours . oh , okay . user interface: no , not fronts . different designs . different colours maybe , yeah . industrial designer: yes . marketing: and that 's still uh uh , yeah , is is uh is a little personal touch , i guess . project manager: okay , but oh , maybe we should do three or something that w you know , our marketing: what ? yeah , wha wha what would you uh guys uh think ? personally . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: or forty . user interface: we can make it a one . marketing: personally . yes , but what is it ? industrial designer: i think two or three . user interface: mm yeah . marketing: guido ? user interface: i agree . marketing: two or three . user interface: um , i uh i go for the positive . so i go for two . marketing: i was i was thinking about three , so i guess project manager: uh , i was thinking about four , so i think three is uh user interface: okay , three . marketing: three is uh a bit uh oh , what am i doing ? i 'll mark it . the remote control 's uh uh that n makes uh zapping easy . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah well , let that let 's make that a one . industrial designer: yes . user interface: two . one . one . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: yes . marketing: antek , you agree ? user interface: okay yeah , i 'll i 'll agree . industrial designer: yes . project manager: that 's one thing for sure . marketing: yeah . you 're not antek . user interface: i 'm the i 'm the usability , so marketing: i totally agree . the remote control the remote control 's relevant buttons are prominently visible . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , two or a one , i guess . user interface: the project manager: it 's something we really put work into . marketing: yeah , i yeah . industrial designer: it 's all about the buttons . marketing: i would say a one because uh every button is uh uh relevant . and our oh yeah , it 's a b yeah . yeah ? alright . that 's a one ? you agree ? project manager: yeah . marketing: the remote control has n't got too much redundant or unneeded buttons . i think we totally succeeded there . project manager: but user interface: well project manager: well maybe a two , because of the menu button or something . marketing: oh user interface: yeah , well menu yeah , maybe . marketing: yeah , that 's true . that 's true . project manager: and telete industrial designer: also , the the the buttons of the one , the two , the the digits , project manager: yeah , we do n't know if the uh they 're necessary . industrial designer: o they 're used uh uh marketing: the the yeah , m well , you d you 've got a point . project manager: i think a two . user interface: yeah , true . yeah , i agree . industrial designer: can yes , three , two . project manager: came a long way , but not we did n't not uh marketing: two or three ? user interface: mm two . industrial designer: but you ca n't make a remote control without them , marketing: two ? antek . user interface: because we got industrial designer: because marketing: nay that that that 's true , that 's true . they 're definitely needed . project manager: no , w w it can also always be more simplistic , but two is marketing: so we put it on a two ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yes . marketing: the remote control has got a really trendy look . user interface: industrial designer: yes . a one . project manager: yeah , uh a t i think a two . marketing: maarten . user interface: well . industrial designer: project manager: yeah yeah , y i it 's hard to say from this picture . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: we we 've tried to make it uh the the best trendy look uh ever . user interface: yeah . marketing: ever , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: guido . project manager: but i do think it 's more user interface: uh , i will i will make it a three , because uh yeah . i i th project manager: but i do think that it 's more trendy than beautiful . industrial designer: yes . marketing: yeah , uh i agree . i agree . project manager: so so i think maybe it has to score higher uh on this than on the user interface: yeah . true , yeah . marketing: i was planning to give it a two , uh where i give the not ugly uh project manager: a th a three . marketing: oh , yeah , that 's true . you agree on the two ? user interface: yeah . project manager: i i uh when you compare to the industrial designer: yes . marketing: great . remote control has n't got too much redundant or unneeded buttons . project manager: uh uh what 's the difference with user interface: marketing: uh , i copied that one . well , uh forget that . project manager: okay . marketing: um go away . remote control has got innovative technology implanted . user interface: no . we 're not project manager: no . industrial designer: no . user interface: well , maybe the the the on the side . industrial designer: no , not lcd , so . project manager: yeah , but we uh you mean the rubber stuff ? marketing: yeah , and the light . project manager: yeah , but we have t we have to talk about the lights uh . user interface: and the light maybe . industrial designer: but that that 's not innovative . user interface: but project manager: and i do n't u also it 's also really not innovative , industrial designer: lights lights are marketing: well , i g project manager: it 's more marketing: it 's not seven ? project manager: no , six . or seven maybe , yeah . user interface: well , six . no , six . project manager: or six . industrial designer: six . marketing: why uh why not a seven ? user interface: six . project manager: yeah , mine is seven . industrial designer: because we 've tried to make it a little bit innovative , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but it but it project manager: uh it 's uh depends on the on the maybe marketing: how ? industrial designer: with the lights it it 's it 's kind of future user interface: project manager: no , i think i think actually it 's a seven maybe , but there 's nothing innovative about it . marketing: yeah , you think the lights are innovative ? well , it 's n true . uh , i agree , industrial designer: but still you can retrieve it when it 's when it 's gone , with the with marketing: m but user interface: innovative in generally or just f original for marketing: i 'll yeah , you you did n't draw the docking station . industrial designer: yes . the docking station is a is a little bit innovative . project manager: n no no , marketing: yeah , it it 's i think i think with its project manager: t . user interface: a docking station is innova project manager: yeah , i mean the dock station , but but uh , i think the the docking station , it 's gon na be a kind of a problem . user interface: industrial designer: it 's a part of the remote . marketing: i think more m user interface: okay . industrial designer: and with the speaker on the there 's also a speaker . project manager: but marketing: uh that that 's n project manager: well , let 's leave it open for uh for us later to see what , because we have to reevaluate anyway . well i i yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: no ? marketing: no uh , well , the agenda says evaluate now , so i think we project manager: okay , for now it 's a six or a seven uh , sev marketing: it 's it 's a six . project manager: six maybe , user interface: six . project manager: because industrial designer: but the retrieval or the marketing: that m f project manager: yeah , but i do n't i do n't know if it 's very inno yeah . marketing: yeah , for the retrieval function . yeah . i think that 's very innovative for a remote control . project manager: yeah , v industrial designer: yes , how would you innovate a remote control more ? project manager: yeah , more through uh like function tv functionalities and industrial designer: to put it on your head . project manager: no no , you know what i mean . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: you have must be innovative technology for remote controls , but more in how you control stuff , not in how you find your marketing: yeah sure , but project manager: yeah . yeah , it 's marketing: but i d i definitely do n't think it 's a five , project manager: that 's that 's think about it la later on marketing: but project manager: and uh marketing: remote control is easy to use . project manager: yeah , as a a one or a two ma uh at least . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah , a two . industrial designer: yes . marketing: i think a two . project manager: yeah , it 's good . marketing: yeah ? user interface: more two . marketing: come on . the remote control has n't got uh . project manager: no , i would have seen that one before . oh , you skipped one uh industrial designer: marketing: i 've just filled uh project manager: uh , here . marketing: go away . industrial designer: you like the buttons . marketing: i found twelve questions so much , but it still is ten . project manager: remote control will be bought by marketing: it will be bought by people under the age of forty . project manager: yeah . definitely . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yes . project manager: well industrial designer: in in and comparing with uh people of th of the age above ? marketing: no no no . no , just if they if they buy it . project manager: uh , just in general . yeah , a two . industrial designer: we do n't know . but project manager: yeah , but i think i think two . marketing: yeah , what do you think ? user interface: yeah , i think two , yeah . i agree . two . marketing: antek ? industrial designer: yes , two , but only in c when you compare it with with elderly . project manager: uh , that is not the question . it 's just w it will be bought by people under forty . marketing: no , that 's no comparison . project manager: yeah , you can yeah , you can be very picky about it . marketing: and i do n't mean two people . industrial designer: this is just guessing . project manager: ah yeah , just make it we 'll make it a two . industrial designer: make it a two . marketing: w w industrial designer: when it succeeds , uh it can get a two , mu marketing: right , the rem the remote control has recognisable corporate image , colour , logo or slogan . project manager: oh no . yeah . yeah , you have make an user interface: we do n't have the slogan though . project manager: slogan is quite obvious . marketing: oh , the slogan . project manager: oh the oh sorry , no , not not the slogan . marketing: can we see the slogan ? project manager: yeah , you can put that on the side if if we would like to . user interface: the logo . industrial designer: a logo . user interface: underneath it or something . industrial designer: yes , uh encrypted uh with project manager: yeah , and i will i th still think it 's gon na be a two or a three . marketing: are we gon na do that ? user interface: a three . three . project manager: maybe a three this time . user interface: yeah , a three . industrial designer: yes . marketing: three ? i agree . because of the slogan project manager: and uh marketing: remote control 's got a basic design intended uh for novice users . project manager: uh , it 's a one or a two . user interface: yeah , two . industrial designer: yes . project manager: yeah , make it a two . user interface: two . marketing: two ? two . alright . we got ta add up the scores now to see our total average . four , five , seven , nine . forget that . fifteen , seventeen , twenty one , twenty four , twenty six . twenty six . it 's a two point six . project manager: it 's not that bad . marketing: alright , we project manager: yeah , and that 's mostly the inno marketing: yeah . project manager: when we uh score higher on innovative technology , we would score two , marketing: yeah . true . project manager: which is uh quite a great score . okay . uh , this is was uh the evaluation ? marketing: this was my evaluation . so project manager: because i i still think that the most important part of this meeting still has marketing: we did a pretty nice job until now . project manager: yeah . marketing: um , is this your industrial designer: is there something after this uh meeting ? or marketing: whatever . well , i think we got ta fill out another questionnaire . user interface: no . okay , yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: still opened or uh yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , finance . because um user interface: shoot . project manager: i received uh a spreadsheet . marketing: a five . a five . project manager: yeah , but i uh actually do n't need this presentation , i guess . oh . marketing: does n't matter . project manager: i 'm gon na open the spreadsheet and we 're gon na work this out together , because i did n't really fin uh i have a . user interface: project manager: did n't really finish it . well , we uh we 'll see . we 'll stumble upon some problems . marketing: we probably will . project manager: i probably have already opened it here . try it again . first of all , the mm all the docking station and costs and such are not included in this list . but let 's let 's st start with beginning . we include one battery . i i uh i 'll explain its uh , the the components are listed over here . uh , price is given . we um yeah , marketing: the amount , yeah . project manager: we we uh indicate the amount of components of the specif specific component , how much we need of them . and then uh , we 'll uh calcula do n't watch the number yet . i do n't know if it 's filled in properly . okay , we need one battery . one battery . i think one battery is enough . industrial designer: yes . project manager: we do n't need kinetic , solar cells , hand dynamo . a s okay , this this is a p first problem . uh , i think we should know how many simple chips , regular chips industrial designer: uh it 's it 's one one chip , but but you have to choose one from it . project manager: okay . but industrial designer: the simple chip is e enough i i think , but with the lights with the lights and the retrieval , it can be uh marketing: i do n't know project manager: where did we find this information ? was it marketing: i have n't got an idea on on which we need to use , really . project manager: i think it was uh your job in the first uh meet uh , f your first presentation to make this clear , but then you had some t time problems . user interface: no . industrial designer: no , uh i yes , my my my uh marketing: yeah . industrial designer: the the email i got said uh simple chip , but when we put in the speaker and the retriever uh device , it will uh cost a a bit more , like i think the advanced chip maybe . marketing: yeah . and how do you know ? i mean , you got that email . did it point out what to use them for ? industrial designer: bec no , the they did n't know about a retriever or a speaker uh in it . project manager: maybe you can uh look it up right now . okay , but okay . when we do n't when we leave the uh retriever and such aside , what industrial designer: then it 's a simple chip . project manager: then it would be a simple chip . and with the retriever , it would be an advanced chip . industrial designer: yes , i i i s i marketing: alright , well , point out the advanced chip for now , i guess . project manager: okay . industrial designer: that will be enough for future uh recommendations . project manager: yeah , but it will it will it will be cause a lot of problems . the sample sensor sample speaker . what is it m is that the speaker we were t i do n't know what it is . industrial designer: i do n't know it uh either . marketing: i do n't know . project manager: okay , we went for the double-curved case industrial designer: yes . project manager: made out of plastic and rubber . and with a special colour . i guess that 's what we were user interface: well , special colour . . project manager: yeah , i do n't know about the special colour , but i think w uh industrial designer: otherwise , you get uh a standard uh plastic colour . user interface: i do n't marketing: i do n't know if it 's very special . project manager: yeah , i think we uh we have special colours . user interface: mm okay . industrial designer: standard rubber . marketing: alright , that 's okay . project manager: okay , then the push-button , i was just counting them . industrial designer: st project manager: uh , i think you have to indicate the amount of push-buttons we want to use , is n't it ? user interface: whoa , it 's a little project manager: well that 's bit of a problem , industrial designer: yes . project manager: because i re but i really do n't understand that , because i can imagine a remote control with far more push-buttons , and it would n't be possible according to this uh sheet . user interface: that 's huge . no . we have the simplest buttons . marketing: no . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: no , it 's only uh when you use push-buttons , it will cost that much . marketing: i do n't think so , because it says amount . industrial designer: if you use a scroll-wheel project manager: ah . yeah , it would n't marketing: the the the yellow row is the amount of project manager: fill in the number of components you plan to use in the and the total cost i do n't know . i industrial designer: maybe it 's the kind of push-buttons . you can have f four kind of push-buttons . user interface: uh , one til nine . industrial designer: rubber . user interface: is that one or is that nine buttons ? industrial designer: you can have uh project manager: and i count them like this . one two three uh four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve and thirteen . user interface: yeah . project manager: because oh , this is oh , this is one , okay . twelve , okay , then it would be eighteen , because uh , i uh rated them as uh um as uh uh uh separate buttons . marketing: to n industrial designer: different , marketing: that 's total of four buttons . project manager: yes . industrial designer: yes . project manager: and plus these two , f uh plus the mute button , and it 's will be uh eighteen . marketing: i think that eighteen . one two three four five , si industrial designer: why is that so uh expensive . project manager: yeah , i do n't understand . y i do i do n't get the point , because it 's would be s relatively so expensive , just these m small buttons . user interface: is it cents , the the the fifty cents a button ? marketing: fifty cents for one single stupid button . user interface: no way . industrial designer: so , whe when you so then it project manager: well , okay , well well let 's make it just one . industrial designer: it 's eighty percent of the price of the of the amount of project manager: here , now it 's now it 's already s marketing: yeah , exactly . yeah . project manager: shall we just give our own interpretation to , user interface: project manager: because else we would really have a problem . it would be impossible to make it marketing: i ca n't user interface: it 's way marketing: i i i could n't understand it if it was fifty cents per uh uh per button . really . industrial designer: when you have the same amount of button , you have to put in wi in your carton . board . project manager: and and less buttons than this is n't possible . industrial designer: and then throw it marketing: yeah , yeah , industrial designer: project manager: this is the most simple user interface: no , no no . project manager: yeah , it is possible , but i 've never seen one before . industrial designer: but whe project manager: industrial designer: i 've seen one uh one remote control with only the pu yeah , only with uh page up , page down and volume , project manager: marketing: no , really . project manager: yeah , without the numbers . that 's possible . yeah , we could skip the numbers . user interface: yeah , uh industrial designer: but but marketing: yeah , but i d i would n't want to own that . really . user interface: that 's still four . industrial designer: uh , it 's it 's still for little children . they can handle that remote control , marketing: yeah . project manager: then uh , teletext would also be im impossible . industrial designer: but but it is n't fo yes , it 's for it 's li uh it 's just for a little user interface: yeah , that 's no option , that 's no option . project manager: okay , we 'll we 'll just okay . but then still , when we there 's no room for a docking station or something . tha w le let 's see th we have uh oh yeah , button supplements . we 'll give the buttons special colour . we 'll give them a special form . uh , i think we should mark the special form thing , because it this will be some special forms incorporated in these big buttons , i guess . user interface: a special colour , why a special colour ? project manager: because the buttons will be uh d will be matching colour between the buttons and the rubber surroundings . user interface: but wha what s what special ? project manager: i think that 's the what they mean by a special colour . user interface: okay , yeah . industrial designer: otherwise , it user interface: uh , yeah . industrial designer: otherwise it would be the marketing: i do n't think the special form is really true . project manager: i think all the special colour things have to be marked over here , because that 's what we were planning to do , making it industrial designer: special form also , it says . project manager: yeah , special material r also , marketing: is it ? project manager: because i has rubber . and the buttons have to be rubber . industrial designer: what is the normal material ? user interface: plastic . marketing: yeah , i dunno . industrial designer: sh yeah . user interface: plastic , i think . industrial designer: classic ? user interface: plastic . industrial designer: oh , plastic . marketing: plastic . project manager: 'kay , but the problem now is that the there 's no such thing as a docking station in this list , but we can all imagine that it would be impossible to make a docking station for thirty cents . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but we can uh sell the remote control and uh sell the docking station project manager: separately . user interface: se no no no . industrial designer: yes . and and but we do n't have to tell it , but what we can say of can um almost make it impossible to buy a remote control without the docking station . project manager: yeah , yeah . yeah , but i do like the idea , but we yeah . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: it uh but it then the docking station is n't relevant for this project anymore , but we can marketing: no . industrial designer: no , but you otherwise you ca n't retrieve it . project manager: but then you still have to use we have to find out what chip we u need . marketing: yeah , i really do n't get it . i mean if it 's a simple chip , then we suddenly got two euros and thirty cents . project manager: i think we can agree on this . i i think the special colour thing has to be uh marked . 'cause i think we uh marketing: yeah , yep . project manager: yeah , i think that 's what what what they uh mean industrial designer: but for two euros and thirty cents , we uh we do n't get a docking station . marketing: i think so , too . oh , i do n't know . project manager: but can we find out uh about uh this chips ? because when we do n't need a d a docking station , then probably we also have only we also need a simple chip . user interface: and then we can get a docking station . project manager: and maybe then we can do something extra . oh , n uh oh , still industrial designer: for project manager: oh , it 's gon na get more expensive with . two . user interface: project manager: then we have some money left . we can put then industrial designer: for two euros . project manager: we can put a scroll-wheel on it or something . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: uh why ? project manager: yeah , well who knows . or a little bit of tin titanium . marketing: i mean i i if you if it would cost two euros , that had a total a total thing , it would be nice too , i mean uh we 're not gon na add uh a trip to hawaii to it . user interface: but what what can we do project manager: yeah , or we can ki do the kinetic cells . that 's also maybe an idea . user interface: but uh what can we do with the simple chip and what 's difference with a regular chip and a advanced chip ? project manager: yeah that 's what then what he has to find out . maybe you can uh find it in your email right now , then we know then we exactly know what it will cost us . user interface: if if i project manager: maybe is that that 's nice to know . user interface: regular chip and because we do n't have uh special functions to use uh in advanced chip , for example . project manager: yeah , bu bu but when we yeah , but when we skip when we um when we do n't use the do we 're not gon na make the docking station , then we still yeah , we need something else maybe to make it kind of special , marketing: i like the hand dynamo part . project manager: because that was our our special feature . marketing: we can make a plain docking station for two euros . user interface: yeah . we 'll go back uh tomorrow . marketing: i mean project manager: yeah , okay , you can also do that , but maybe marketing: wi wi without recharge project manager: it still is a special remote control cons uh you know , wi its form is special and material . marketing: yeah , but but we can make a docking station for two euros uh if you do n't put the recharge function in it . i mean , it has a shape . project manager: yeah , but for two euros , then we have still maybe we have to use the advanced chip , marketing: of course it has a shape , but i i project manager: then two euros is n't even possible . marketing: why should that not be possible ? project manager: yeah , then because then we 'd thirty cents left . marketing: no , for for the uh for the docking station if you do if you choose the simple chip . project manager: yeah , but yeah , i do n't know , because maybe d uh yeah , we have to find out with the simple chip . user interface: that 's the question . if we do i do we need an advanced chip , or is it okay f project manager: yeah , and w and and we uh need f marketing: yes . industrial designer: it is n't in my information , so i do n't know it uh either . project manager: and what is this ? sample sensor sample speaker . industrial designer: it is n't in my information , i uh i i 've got a schematic view of the remote control , but nothing about uh advanced chips or project manager: you can look at it for s presentation . s technical functions ? user interface: no . industrial designer: uh i 've got here in uh user interface: no no , they were uh mine , yeah . project manager: oh . industrial designer: i will put a i will put a page on it . when my mouse works again . project manager: oh , oh oh . hey . oh . industrial designer: my mouse is uh marketing: dead . industrial designer: yes . marketing: reanimate it . user interface: died . industrial designer: oh . ah , i 've got it . i will put uh my email on the the network . marketing: what the hell are these ? industrial designer: it 's on it . marketing: oh , whatever . user interface: yeah , it 's open . marketing: project manager: mm . i do n't think here it 's in here already . user interface: it 's circuit board . it 's only just basics for for project manager: it 's nothing about s yeah . user interface: at the end circuit there is an infrared led . industrial designer: yes . marketing: this is n't helpful . project manager: no . but i in the presentation of yours , there was also something about different components . which one was it ? user interface: components design . project manager: functional requirements ? industrial designer: um marketing: no , that was my presentation . user interface: components design maybe . n on top . industrial designer: yes , that was mine . project manager: ah . ah yes , it was the second one . industrial designer: but that was my second project manager: yeah , it was your second marketing: it 's already open . project manager: your first presentation . marketing: it 's at the bottom . project manager: sorry ? user interface: working design . marketing: it 's uh at your task bar . user interface: yeah , but it 's the the other one . marketing: oh . industrial designer: mm project manager: uh , this is n this is not this n user interface: was it working design or components design ? marketing: sorry . project manager: that 's not the right one . i do n't oh . marketing: okay , sorry . project manager: no , this is the other one . or maybe something is uh maybe there 's something abo in in these user interface: chip set . industrial designer: but this is the same uh this is o only the possibilities . project manager: here . industrial designer: yeah . we can use a simple , a regular , or advanced chip . marketing: yeah , nice . i it does n't say anything . user interface: the display requires an advanced chip . project manager: you know that a push-button requires a simple chip , but a scroll-wheel , it it me requires industrial designer: ah , okay . project manager: okay , so we only need a simple chip . user interface: requires . industrial designer: with the light . user interface: little lights . yeah , but that that 's just the same as the the led . project manager: no no , that 's just a simple chip . a scroll-wheel marketing: that 's not needed . project manager: it s uh only states that a scroll-wheel requires a regular chip , and that a display requires an advanced chip . so , we do n't need any of them . marketing: a display uh is , of course , uh for showing letters . for showing text . industrial designer: lcd . user interface: yeah . marketing: i do n't think that uh just a l a little light user interface: no . i think uh the uh normal uh simple chip will be okay . marketing: yeah , i agree . project manager: and what 's the sample sensor slash sample speaker ? industrial designer: maybe you can say against the remote uh page uh f uh page up , page down . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , i guess so too . user interface: yeah , true . well , that 's not too what we want . marketing: next channel . no . well , we might want it , but user interface: project manager: okay . industrial designer: all in twelve euros . project manager: back to the costs . industrial designer: twelve euros and fifty cents . marketing: yeah . project manager: so we 're gon na use the simple chip . user interface: so , simple chip is okay . marketing: great . delete . industrial designer: and the lights . where uh are the lights ? marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , lights , yeah , there 's no marketing: well , there 're three , i guess . user interface: category . project manager: nah , there is some money left to be spent . user interface: can we do it wi within two two euro ? marketing: i think we can make a docking station . yeah . project manager: okay , but what we have to think about now is that is is it still a special remote control ? but i mean it is n't it has n't got any innovative technology , we are n't gon na apply any uh innovated innovative te technology anyway , i think . i do n't i do n't see any possibility to do so , because it would would n't fit our defi design philosophy . user interface: mm-hmm . but it 's original . project manager: but what w is there some extra marketing: no , that 's true . project manager: maybe i think maybe the kinetic thing is something . instead of the rechargeable the rechargeable thing was something to um know , so y so people would n't have to worry about their batteries anymore . marketing: m bu project manager: maybe we if we put the kinetic thing in it industrial designer: but but sometimes you put a project manager: yeah , you leave the p yeah , i know , but still i they will think about that . i mean if you u industrial designer: kinetics are n't uh nowadays only used in watches and that 's because you 're always walking . project manager: the uh it 's made for s people well , the they do n't if it was uh uh r useless technology , they would n't put it uh as a possibility . industrial designer: uh solar cells are useless . project manager: and i it it th th the the target marketing: or the hand dynamo dynamo project manager: the target uh group are people who zap regularly and throw with their remote control as a matter of speaking . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: because i think it when when there w was a remote control where it was useful to have a kinetic uh uh power source , then it would be this one . because it 's one it gets thrown around thrown around a lot and it gets used a lot hey that maybe that 's cool that 's a cool thing about it , you know . you do n't use batteries . marketing: yeah , but but if we ca project manager: i 've never seen it before in a remote control . user interface: but then we could make a docking station . marketing: i do n't know if five minutes . project manager: no , we we we ca n't make a docking station anyway . marketing: that 's not true . project manager: yeah , we can als or uh also m we we can make one user interface: wow , w why no li marketing: we can make a docking station for two thirty . project manager: we can still make user interface: look at now , we got two industrial designer: fo for a docking station . marketing: two thirty . user interface: two thirty left . ca ca n't we make a docking station of that ? marketing: we can make a docking station . sure . industrial designer: with a cable , with uh buttons on it , with retrieval uh device in it . marketing: sure . user interface: i do n't know . marketing: the power device is is i i is very cheap . project manager: marketing: that 's just a regular uh power cable and whatever . project manager: yeah , but be serious , then uh the docking station will be a fifth of the price of the remote control . industrial designer: wi with a button to user interface: well , we we uh industrial designer: wi with a button to retrieve it , so it will beep . marketing: so . industrial designer: uh , so it 's uh wireless technology . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , but we uh we do n't inc we have n't looked at the these costs of the speaker and other stuff . i do n't think it 's realistic for you to do so . marketing: well then it 's a useless project . industrial designer: look at the case , project manager: oh , because we industrial designer: the case the case of of uh of uh user interface: yeah , then we do n't have any innovation things . project manager: we well look at all the special stuff we have . colour a the colours are special , the form is special . it th this is whole concept . uh maybe it with the kinetic thing , i think we could do uh do a compromise uh with the kim kinetic thing . marketing: ca n't we uh ca n't we say fifteen euros ? project manager: uh , no . user interface: marketing: no , sta yeah i mean industrial designer: no , then we have to sell it for thirty euros . marketing: no . user interface: no , we only make less profit of it . industrial designer: it 's the marketing: you can sell for twenty seven and a half . then you make as much profit as you would with twelve and a half production costs . user interface: no . project manager: yeah , i don my suggestion is to just forget about the whole docking station thing and make it uh like a uh uh i i i i still fee i also feel this concept of making it kinetic , because of the you know , it g it gives something dynamic to the remote control . marketing: i do n't think industrial designer: maybe we can uh can do it both . maybe we can do it both uh in the in the in the remote . battery and kinetic . marketing: no . project manager: no , that would n't n no . marketing: thirteen twenty . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: yeah , and it is also not a good it 's not you have to really do it only kinetic , you do n't want it to think about batteries anymore . marketing: and i think only industrial designer: yes , but when it 's then when it marketing: yeah , but only kinetic , then you got ta project manager: no no . industrial designer: then you have to shake it uh and all when it 's when it 's empty . project manager: yeah , it 's great . marketing: you you got ta throw uh throw it through the room like twenty times an hour , really . industrial designer: project manager: no no no . no no , this is very sophisticated technology technology . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: when you use it your remote like once a day , or maybe even less i i it industrial designer: you asked for three d no , that 's n that 's not true . uh , a watch is uh kinetic because you walk all the time . marketing: no . project manager: it we can make it yeah no . becau be but a remote control gets why do they state that this technology can be used if it industrial designer: yes , solar cells are also stated . project manager: yeah , m but a w uh uh n uh a calculator also works on r on solar cells . industrial designer: why do n't we use solar cells then ? project manager: because i think the d whole dynamic part , do you know , appeals to me qui uh thinking of our design philosophy , you know , with the rubber parts and uh sturdiness of the thing , and y when you move it around a lot , then people find the idea funny that when i move my remote control around and industrial designer: that 's true . marketing: yeah , it 's funny for a week . i guess something like that , where you have to move it around very frequently , is demotivating . project manager: yeah , but you do n't have to . trust me . the idea of this technology is that you do n't think about it , it just happens . marketing: no , i i do n't move my uh my remote control very much , seriously . project manager: okay , then we d okay , well y we do n't have to do it , but what that would just have a lack of key features , you know . industrial designer: oui . project manager: you m have to put something on your box . you have to make people buy it and uh we can really can do the docking thing , uh it 's not yeah , uh we can do it , but it 's would be a easy way out . industrial designer: you can do it for fifty cents . user interface: marketing: well , we 've got more than fifty cents . project manager: okay , but we have to grou to agree upon something , industrial designer: the c the case the case alone is is is uh project manager: because uh we only have a minute left or so . industrial designer: the case alone for uh remote control is at least one euro . then we have one euro thirty for the whole docking station . project manager: no no , it 's not possible . okay , w b we can s we can leave it on be well then then th it 's this is then then our concept is ready . user interface: cheap remote control . project manager: yeah , we make some extra profit of it . marketing: yeah . no , we wo n't , but that 's um something else . user interface: it w it wo n't tell , but industrial designer: but now marketing: no , this not gon na sell . no . project manager: huh , any ideas ? marketing: of course not . user interface: no , uh , n no industrial designer: great . it 's great . user interface: yeah , we just have to go all what we did today again . you have to do it over . industrial designer: our remote control . marketing: we come back tomorrow , okay ? project manager: no no uh there 's still there 's still someth concept and something special left . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes . user interface: the industrial designer: seventy euros . project manager: i mean we 're gon na it 's gon na excel in in on in the the range in the field of design and and uh looks and feel . user interface: no , but no . project manager: that 's what it 's makes it special . yeah , and i would li i would have liked a kinetic part as well , to give it some just to give it some extra special feature , and uh i know it will work , but uh it 's it 's an they 're they 're not putting technologies on this , but if it if it was impossible to to make it happen . industrial designer: why not a hand dynamo then ? user interface: project manager: okay , well we leave it like this . then it 's c then we 're yeah . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: we ca n't do anything else . warning , finish meeting now . industrial designer: we 're done . project manager: okay , project e uh industrial designer: is this it ? project manager: well , we were gon na what look take a look at the last sheet . marketing: yeah , sure . industrial designer: okay . marketing: no , we ca n't . project manager: yeah , we have to yeah , it 's user interface: no . industrial designer: yes . marketing: yes , yes . celebration . i do n't see why , but industrial designer: where 's the champagne ? marketing: i think we got ta fill out another questionnaire , to be honest . user interface: yeah ? industrial designer: i do n't uh hear a bell . marketing: no , not yet . industrial designer: user interface: we can do it here then . marketing: alright , i 'll see you guys in a minute . industrial designer: bye . user interface: can we ca n't we do it here ? marketing: i do n't think so . i do n't know . i do n't i do n't think so . user interface: industrial designer: uh-huh . just fill that one in . user interface: yeah , we 're doing now . but it 's . oh , okay . project manager: uh , i do n't know . user interface: nice .

firstly , user interface and industrial designer introduced the prototype of remote control based on the previous discussion of its form , material and the colour . the prototype was a pretty simple design with an obvious company logo on it and two buttons in the middle . secondly , marketing designed an evaluation test under the guidance of the advantages of its main features discussed before and the team gave one to seven points to each feature of the product to see if the prototype would meet the original requirements and goals . lastly , the team calculated the cost of the prototype and found that it was not easy to land on the exact budget . after trying to incorporate as many functions as the team could for a while , the team decided to use regular chips , normal batteries and a combination of cheap materials and fancy ones , which made the budget under control .

how did user interface and industrial designer introduce the prototype of the remote control ? </s> project manager: okay , welcome to the detailed design meeting . again , i 'm gon na take minutes . oh , we 're gon na have a prototype presentation first . user interface: project manager: uh , who 's gon na give the prototype presentation ? you two guys ? okay . go ahead . industrial designer: yes . user interface: . marketing: . user interface: coffee . marketing: industrial designer: 'kay , we 've made a prototype . um , we 've got uh uh our aspects from the last meeting . uh , especially we looked at the form , material and the colour . um , we 've uh drawn here the p prototype . the logo is uh is uh is pretty uh obvious to see on the on the remote control , user interface: industrial designer: but it is necessary when you want to build your uh company f to a level higher . um , our interface elements , there are shown in the in the drawing . maybe you can uh point them uh the functions . user interface: uh , well the uh all the functions are discussed uh i think the most of the functions are uh uh obvious . uh , it 's a little bit . uh , power button . uh then the the the nine uh channels . project manager: user interface: uh the volume uh uh at the side , and the other side is the programmes . and then we had uh just uh two buttons , we place them in the middle , uh the menu , and for the teletext project manager: oh no , the the the mute button misses now . user interface: i thought that was th marketing: alright , i project manager: do y do you user interface: oh , the mute button . project manager: did we want to have a m mute button ? industrial designer: but uh that marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it 's uh here then , in the middle . user interface: yeah . project manager: huh . marketing: alright , and uh you got ta point out which is the volume um uh button and which is the programme button . industrial designer: yes , um user interface: well , yeah mo uh mo industrial designer: we 've disc user interface: yeah , well most of them are right-handed . industrial designer: most of the users marketing: yeah , but you you got ta make it clear on the on user interface: yeah well , i do n't have time in uh anymore on the industrial designer: yes , y there there will be a p a little a little p_ on that and a little uh yeah . marketing: yeah , and a and a triangle on that . user interface: oh yeah , just progr programme above , i think . marketing: yes . next to that i kinda miss a zero actually . user interface: project manager: wait , there 's was one thing i wanted to ask . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: project manager: uh , there are different ways for remote controls to uh do uh like marketing: project manager: uh d i call it teens and twenties . uh , y th th th the two numbers . industrial designer: yes . marketing: all n no , that 's um kinda dependent on the television . user interface: yeah , true , yeah . industrial designer: it 's a television . yes . project manager: yeah , but do we have do we need extra buttons , user interface: uh project manager: for example some uh some have to user interface: uh i think so . marketing: i think industrial designer: yes , yes , you have you have a lot of standard buttons that has to be uh on it , uh th with the one and a double uh uh marketing: yeah , i think you should add user interface: zero ? marketing: a cross , or whatever . yeah , line . project manager: yeah , but you do n't you do n't actually need them , user interface: may maybe here ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: becau b l a lot of remote controls work that y when y that you when you fir you push the one first , then you have a couple of seconds user interface: yeah . and then a second . marketing: no , that 's dependent on the television . project manager: no , i do n't think so . industrial designer: yes , you have televisions , then you have to , you know , you have to uh press marketing: i do know so . user interface: is it depending on television ? project manager: nah , i do n't think so really , marketing: yeah . project manager: because you have a i know some remote controls that do n't have these buttons , but you still can , know , obviously you can still select the twenty uh a number in the twenty or in the ten . industrial designer: yes , but but a lot uh marketing: yes , but uh uh no uh remote control nowadays are um they come with the television . or actually , the other way around . project manager: no , i think uh i really think it 's n marketing: but project manager: because you can when when you put a button on it with like one and uh then a dash , it 's the same thing as when you just push the one , marketing: yeah . project manager: because it i it first gives you the functionality of that that uh separate button you also had to uh apply . industrial designer: yes , but marketing: yeah , well but su if industrial designer: some televisions do n't accept uh that that project manager: yeah , because that 's i it 's for television . it 's exact the same thing . industrial designer: no , no , but s marketing: no no no . so some television respond differently . look , if uh i i project manager: no , listen listen . when you push the button , the remote control gives a signal . i in th in the first place it gives a signal which it would also send when you put a separate button on it . marketing: yes . yes , that 's true . project manager: the one with dash , that signal gi and when y whe when you do n't push another button on the remote control within five seconds , then the remote control gives a signal for channel one . user interface: yeah . true . marketing: no project manager: i think it works that way , really . marketing: no , it it it works uh if you have n't got uh a special button for it , uh if you push a one , then on your television there will appear a one and a a line , which is an empty space . project manager: yeah , but it 's exact the same that w would appear when you put a separate button push a separate button . industrial designer: yes , but some some old televisions uh you have to uh click on uh a special button , uh then you go to a a next level , you can push two buttons . project manager: yeah , but you do n't underst uh you do n't understand my point . marketing: yep . true . project manager: i think it 's exact the same thing when y industrial designer: you want yes , but some television do n't support it . project manager: no , but then they would a would also support that button , because it 's the same thing . user interface: but the ex project manager: listen , with that that 's that special but button you 're talking about , eh ? that 's just a signal to recei ju they send a t signal to the v tv tv that they have to put a one in on your screen and a dash , which you can pu so you can uh still put another number on it . when you do n't have that separate button , and you push y one , it 's exactly the same thing . do y you the remote control gives that same signal as it would give when you only had industrial designer: no , marketing: no , s some some televisions need the input first uh and and you c industrial designer: a remote can project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yes , project manager: but you give the input . industrial designer: so they need no , they need project manager: you push the one . that 's the same thing as the button with the one and it marketing: no , that 's not true . project manager: yes it it is . marketing: it 's simply not true . it 's simply not true . project manager: think about it . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: no , user interface: you uh you can wai when you push the one you can show on the telly a one and just a dash , and then wait uh two uh seconds or something industrial designer: but uh marketing: uh project manager: and it 's the same thing what happens and a g remote control gives another signal after five seconds that is just one . marketing: no , remote control does n't give signal after five seconds . remote control is a stupid thing . if you push a button , it sends it immediately to to the television . project manager: yeah , that 's true . yeah , but i m uh but it 's i i know for sure that some televisions that w th th the remote control supplied , only ha has the c these buttons with a one and a dash and a two and a dash , but when you use a bu a n remote control that does n't sport these buttons , it still works . industrial designer: yeah , it project manager: but okay , we we 'll impl marketing: no , definitely not . definitely not . user interface: we 'll discuss them in the usability lab . project manager: no , we 'll apply them then for now . user interface: uh eva evaluation . marketing: user interface: i do n't know uh i do n't know if if it 's it 's necessary . project manager: yeah , app just apply them next to the zero , the one and the two . user interface: yeah ? project manager: yeah , i think so . yeah , for now , if we do n't know for sure whether user interface: okay . industrial designer: and the button for the scart uh audio video uh external input . marketing: yes . user interface: ach . project manager: yeah but marketing: uh , you can access that uh via zero , and then minus , i guess . project manager: okay . what i said about uh the remote control sending another signal , that that might not be true , marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: but i still think i it it all tvs in some ways support it , i do n't know . i think it 's more c is m maybe we do n't uh we both do n't really understand how it i how it really works , industrial designer: no , no . project manager: but i think there 's more to in than wha than what you just said . industrial designer: uh , remote control sends one signal at one button uh press . project manager: i do think that uh m tvs support mur multiple kind of remote controls . m industrial designer: uh , some n some televisions when when you want to go further than uh ten project manager: th wo n't work wi with uh industrial designer: no , you have to you have to uh give the television uh two or more signals . project manager: to have that special button . industrial designer: when you uh press one button , you give one signal . and the older televisions need more signals to go a level higher . but project manager: okay , well we 'll see . marketing: yep . industrial designer: when you make the technology that that it will uh give more signals , it could work , but just a basic idea of of of the most uh most y most common uh and simple uh operations on the remote . marketing: okay . i kinda miss the docking station . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes . it 's here on the user interface: marketing: user interface: well it industrial designer: user interface: yeah , uh there 's nothing i think it 's pretty basic , industrial designer: we came uh user interface: the the there 's no fu industrial designer: yes . user interface: there 's one there 's one button , marketing: no nothing really trendy about it . user interface: that 's wha there 's there 's there 's one function and that 's n the one button when you want to find it . industrial designer: but maybe we can maybe we can make the docking station uh uh a bit standard for for uh the other products we sell , marketing: the button . industrial designer: because real real reaction sells more products than only remote controls . so maybe we can uh use the docking station , for example , uh m_p_ three players or or uh marketing: yep . industrial designer: uh hearing devices . marketing: i think that 's very difficult , because of different shapes of uh uh devices . industrial designer: yes , but when you put that same volt voltages on it , you can put uh when the when the when uh o the the the lowest part of it , when it 's o the same as the other products , you can put it all on the same uh marketing: yeah , of course . mm-hmm . well it it got it it has got to fit into the shape , of course . industrial designer: yes , but we can make marketing: the technology and the voltage can be the same . that 's uh that 's true . but uh i if you all make the m having a bottom like this , then they all fit . industrial designer: no , we can make uh make the most lowest part all the same . marketing: yeah , that 's true , but uh industrial designer: when when the the recharger has a has a bit what points out , we can place all on top of it . just have to be big enough for the biggest marketing: yes , but uh i i g should n't it fall then ? it is n't going to fall down ? that 's a bit uh industrial designer: no , when you make it large enough no it it will not . marketing: yeah , i think industrial designer: but then it 's a little bit marketing: no , but if if like this , i 'll i 'll point it out , if you got uh a a a base a base like this , industrial designer: but it 's just an idea . marketing: i wo n't draw it really . if you got a base which is uh as big as this industrial designer: but it 's flat it 's flat as as this , so we can p make all the products as flat as this . user interface: you can . but i i i it 's backwards . marketing: yeah sure , but if you got if you got a tiny player , it can industrial designer: yes , but when you make uh uh a bit of big user interface: but it 's it 's backwards . it 's leaning . it 's leaning backwards , i think , in the in the docking station . marketing: yeah . uh , wha what you could do if you uh from the bottom user interface: that 's text . marketing: oh , right , help . project manager: but user interface: marketing: uh , you could make like a hole in it , you know , of uh in in the industrial designer: yes , little holer littler uh , little products go deeper in it . marketing: yeah . that i that is possible , yep . project manager: well let 's ha let 's talk about the docking station later , because uh maybe we have we have to uh consider the docking station anyway , because we have some uh cost issues still to come . marketing: yeah , sure , you 're right . industrial designer: yes . and uh uh marketing: oh . project manager: but we have to look n i do n't know . industrial designer: the f the look and feel would be great on this uh remote control , because uh you always uh will uh pick up the remote control in the in the smallest uh area . marketing: i do n't like the colours . mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: then your uh left thumb of uh your right thumb is uh near the programme uh button , which is the most common used uh function , and all the other buttons are available for your uh thumb . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so it 's it 's it 's really good design . marketing: yeah . alright . project manager: yes . that 's it ? industrial designer: yes , uh on the side uh there will be a strip of rubber , and in the middle uh there is uh a hard uh a hard material , a bit hard plastic with a light uh behind it . marketing: the light . okay . and other lights ? project manager: i think added lights are gon na be a problem too . industrial designer: yes , we can make also n neon lights on it , or or the buttons that can make uh light on it . marketing: no , o on the on the front . yeah , okay . maybe the uh the logo . industrial designer: yes . user interface: lights ? industrial designer: but , it will also uh uh use batteries , marketing: yeah , why not ? industrial designer: and do we want to marketing: of course . project manager: okay . for now , uh this is uh is good enough . user interface: mm . project manager: yeah , what was uh on the marketing: okay . industrial designer: the all the aspects of the interface buttons were uh project manager: okay , but in the oh yeah , the colour , because we 're gon na use uh one colour for the the plastic enclosure and one colour for the rubber , is n't it ? then we 're gon na do the buttons in the i are we 're gon na have rubber buttons . industrial designer: yes . project manager: and they 're be a they 'll be in the same colour as the rubber on the side . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes . marketing: uh , in the same colour as the side . user interface: yeah . yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah , i think i think that 'll be good . project manager: okay . and i think we should use a a darker colour for the um plastic , and maybe some more m brighter and flashy stuff industrial designer: yes , maybe we can use on the on the lights on the side we can use uh uh multiple uh lights , marketing: yes . industrial designer: so it will uh project manager: yeah , we 'll talk about the lights later . 'cause i also don yeah , industrial designer: yes . marketing: yep . project manager: it 's depends on the costs and such . but uh , and we have to agree uh upon the exact colours , marketing: yeah . project manager: but may i dunno if that 's important , but we 'll talk about that later . okay , for now this is this is okay . marketing: we will . project manager: um , the next p y you gon na give a presentation too ? uh , i have to see the agenda . industrial designer: no . marketing: well , uh yeah , i i 'm gon na do something right there , yeah . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: detail design . marketing: we got ta do that on the right the most right-most screen , because the leftmost project manager: evaluation criteria . marketing: yep , that 's me . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: alright . i will be needing that image , so leave it please . um go away . right , we 're gon na evaluate that design according to a few points . um , we g the four of us are going to do that um together . project manager: marketing: i wan na have a colour over here , come on . right , the remote is not ugly , a bit weird sentence , but the positive things has to be on the left , so i said not ugly instead of ugly . user interface: marketing: uh , what would you say , we we got ta give points to uh to all of these to evaluate uh that design , and please forget the drawing skills of these guys . user interface: project manager: okay . industrial designer: marketing: the remote control is not ugly . how do you feel ? project manager: yeah , i think four maybe would be appropriate , because it 's yeah , maybe it really depends on taste . uh , i mean it 's kind of , our design . it 's marketing: yes . project manager: so if maybe a lot of people find it really ugly , you know , o other people find it really cool . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: background colour . project manager: i do n't know or uh i do n't know how you casting . yeah . industrial designer: i think i think the the fronts will give it a more uh uh uh less uglier uh side , because you can uh make it in your own marketing: how do you guys feel ? the different designs . industrial designer: yes , you can make it in your own uh marketing: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: more to your own personality or or house style . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah , but we d we did n't we 're we 're not planning to use fronts , i believe . marketing: no , not not fronts , but different designs . project manager: with a colour a co a colours . oh , okay . user interface: no , not fronts . different designs . different colours maybe , yeah . industrial designer: yes . marketing: and that 's still uh uh , yeah , is is uh is a little personal touch , i guess . project manager: okay , but oh , maybe we should do three or something that w you know , our marketing: what ? yeah , wha wha what would you uh guys uh think ? personally . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: or forty . user interface: we can make it a one . marketing: personally . yes , but what is it ? industrial designer: i think two or three . user interface: mm yeah . marketing: guido ? user interface: i agree . marketing: two or three . user interface: um , i uh i go for the positive . so i go for two . marketing: i was i was thinking about three , so i guess project manager: uh , i was thinking about four , so i think three is uh user interface: okay , three . marketing: three is uh a bit uh oh , what am i doing ? i 'll mark it . the remote control 's uh uh that n makes uh zapping easy . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah well , let that let 's make that a one . industrial designer: yes . user interface: two . one . one . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: yes . marketing: antek , you agree ? user interface: okay yeah , i 'll i 'll agree . industrial designer: yes . project manager: that 's one thing for sure . marketing: yeah . you 're not antek . user interface: i 'm the i 'm the usability , so marketing: i totally agree . the remote control the remote control 's relevant buttons are prominently visible . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , two or a one , i guess . user interface: the project manager: it 's something we really put work into . marketing: yeah , i yeah . industrial designer: it 's all about the buttons . marketing: i would say a one because uh every button is uh uh relevant . and our oh yeah , it 's a b yeah . yeah ? alright . that 's a one ? you agree ? project manager: yeah . marketing: the remote control has n't got too much redundant or unneeded buttons . i think we totally succeeded there . project manager: but user interface: well project manager: well maybe a two , because of the menu button or something . marketing: oh user interface: yeah , well menu yeah , maybe . marketing: yeah , that 's true . that 's true . project manager: and telete industrial designer: also , the the the buttons of the one , the two , the the digits , project manager: yeah , we do n't know if the uh they 're necessary . industrial designer: o they 're used uh uh marketing: the the yeah , m well , you d you 've got a point . project manager: i think a two . user interface: yeah , true . yeah , i agree . industrial designer: can yes , three , two . project manager: came a long way , but not we did n't not uh marketing: two or three ? user interface: mm two . industrial designer: but you ca n't make a remote control without them , marketing: two ? antek . user interface: because we got industrial designer: because marketing: nay that that that 's true , that 's true . they 're definitely needed . project manager: no , w w it can also always be more simplistic , but two is marketing: so we put it on a two ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yes . marketing: the remote control has got a really trendy look . user interface: industrial designer: yes . a one . project manager: yeah , uh a t i think a two . marketing: maarten . user interface: well . industrial designer: project manager: yeah yeah , y i it 's hard to say from this picture . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: we we 've tried to make it uh the the best trendy look uh ever . user interface: yeah . marketing: ever , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: guido . project manager: but i do think it 's more user interface: uh , i will i will make it a three , because uh yeah . i i th project manager: but i do think that it 's more trendy than beautiful . industrial designer: yes . marketing: yeah , uh i agree . i agree . project manager: so so i think maybe it has to score higher uh on this than on the user interface: yeah . true , yeah . marketing: i was planning to give it a two , uh where i give the not ugly uh project manager: a th a three . marketing: oh , yeah , that 's true . you agree on the two ? user interface: yeah . project manager: i i uh when you compare to the industrial designer: yes . marketing: great . remote control has n't got too much redundant or unneeded buttons . project manager: uh uh what 's the difference with user interface: marketing: uh , i copied that one . well , uh forget that . project manager: okay . marketing: um go away . remote control has got innovative technology implanted . user interface: no . we 're not project manager: no . industrial designer: no . user interface: well , maybe the the the on the side . industrial designer: no , not lcd , so . project manager: yeah , but we uh you mean the rubber stuff ? marketing: yeah , and the light . project manager: yeah , but we have t we have to talk about the lights uh . user interface: and the light maybe . industrial designer: but that that 's not innovative . user interface: but project manager: and i do n't u also it 's also really not innovative , industrial designer: lights lights are marketing: well , i g project manager: it 's more marketing: it 's not seven ? project manager: no , six . or seven maybe , yeah . user interface: well , six . no , six . project manager: or six . industrial designer: six . marketing: why uh why not a seven ? user interface: six . project manager: yeah , mine is seven . industrial designer: because we 've tried to make it a little bit innovative , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but it but it project manager: uh it 's uh depends on the on the maybe marketing: how ? industrial designer: with the lights it it 's it 's kind of future user interface: project manager: no , i think i think actually it 's a seven maybe , but there 's nothing innovative about it . marketing: yeah , you think the lights are innovative ? well , it 's n true . uh , i agree , industrial designer: but still you can retrieve it when it 's when it 's gone , with the with marketing: m but user interface: innovative in generally or just f original for marketing: i 'll yeah , you you did n't draw the docking station . industrial designer: yes . the docking station is a is a little bit innovative . project manager: n no no , marketing: yeah , it it 's i think i think with its project manager: t . user interface: a docking station is innova project manager: yeah , i mean the dock station , but but uh , i think the the docking station , it 's gon na be a kind of a problem . user interface: industrial designer: it 's a part of the remote . marketing: i think more m user interface: okay . industrial designer: and with the speaker on the there 's also a speaker . project manager: but marketing: uh that that 's n project manager: well , let 's leave it open for uh for us later to see what , because we have to reevaluate anyway . well i i yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: no ? marketing: no uh , well , the agenda says evaluate now , so i think we project manager: okay , for now it 's a six or a seven uh , sev marketing: it 's it 's a six . project manager: six maybe , user interface: six . project manager: because industrial designer: but the retrieval or the marketing: that m f project manager: yeah , but i do n't i do n't know if it 's very inno yeah . marketing: yeah , for the retrieval function . yeah . i think that 's very innovative for a remote control . project manager: yeah , v industrial designer: yes , how would you innovate a remote control more ? project manager: yeah , more through uh like function tv functionalities and industrial designer: to put it on your head . project manager: no no , you know what i mean . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: you have must be innovative technology for remote controls , but more in how you control stuff , not in how you find your marketing: yeah sure , but project manager: yeah . yeah , it 's marketing: but i d i definitely do n't think it 's a five , project manager: that 's that 's think about it la later on marketing: but project manager: and uh marketing: remote control is easy to use . project manager: yeah , as a a one or a two ma uh at least . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah , a two . industrial designer: yes . marketing: i think a two . project manager: yeah , it 's good . marketing: yeah ? user interface: more two . marketing: come on . the remote control has n't got uh . project manager: no , i would have seen that one before . oh , you skipped one uh industrial designer: marketing: i 've just filled uh project manager: uh , here . marketing: go away . industrial designer: you like the buttons . marketing: i found twelve questions so much , but it still is ten . project manager: remote control will be bought by marketing: it will be bought by people under the age of forty . project manager: yeah . definitely . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yes . project manager: well industrial designer: in in and comparing with uh people of th of the age above ? marketing: no no no . no , just if they if they buy it . project manager: uh , just in general . yeah , a two . industrial designer: we do n't know . but project manager: yeah , but i think i think two . marketing: yeah , what do you think ? user interface: yeah , i think two , yeah . i agree . two . marketing: antek ? industrial designer: yes , two , but only in c when you compare it with with elderly . project manager: uh , that is not the question . it 's just w it will be bought by people under forty . marketing: no , that 's no comparison . project manager: yeah , you can yeah , you can be very picky about it . marketing: and i do n't mean two people . industrial designer: this is just guessing . project manager: ah yeah , just make it we 'll make it a two . industrial designer: make it a two . marketing: w w industrial designer: when it succeeds , uh it can get a two , mu marketing: right , the rem the remote control has recognisable corporate image , colour , logo or slogan . project manager: oh no . yeah . yeah , you have make an user interface: we do n't have the slogan though . project manager: slogan is quite obvious . marketing: oh , the slogan . project manager: oh the oh sorry , no , not not the slogan . marketing: can we see the slogan ? project manager: yeah , you can put that on the side if if we would like to . user interface: the logo . industrial designer: a logo . user interface: underneath it or something . industrial designer: yes , uh encrypted uh with project manager: yeah , and i will i th still think it 's gon na be a two or a three . marketing: are we gon na do that ? user interface: a three . three . project manager: maybe a three this time . user interface: yeah , a three . industrial designer: yes . marketing: three ? i agree . because of the slogan project manager: and uh marketing: remote control 's got a basic design intended uh for novice users . project manager: uh , it 's a one or a two . user interface: yeah , two . industrial designer: yes . project manager: yeah , make it a two . user interface: two . marketing: two ? two . alright . we got ta add up the scores now to see our total average . four , five , seven , nine . forget that . fifteen , seventeen , twenty one , twenty four , twenty six . twenty six . it 's a two point six . project manager: it 's not that bad . marketing: alright , we project manager: yeah , and that 's mostly the inno marketing: yeah . project manager: when we uh score higher on innovative technology , we would score two , marketing: yeah . true . project manager: which is uh quite a great score . okay . uh , this is was uh the evaluation ? marketing: this was my evaluation . so project manager: because i i still think that the most important part of this meeting still has marketing: we did a pretty nice job until now . project manager: yeah . marketing: um , is this your industrial designer: is there something after this uh meeting ? or marketing: whatever . well , i think we got ta fill out another questionnaire . user interface: no . okay , yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: still opened or uh yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , finance . because um user interface: shoot . project manager: i received uh a spreadsheet . marketing: a five . a five . project manager: yeah , but i uh actually do n't need this presentation , i guess . oh . marketing: does n't matter . project manager: i 'm gon na open the spreadsheet and we 're gon na work this out together , because i did n't really fin uh i have a . user interface: project manager: did n't really finish it . well , we uh we 'll see . we 'll stumble upon some problems . marketing: we probably will . project manager: i probably have already opened it here . try it again . first of all , the mm all the docking station and costs and such are not included in this list . but let 's let 's st start with beginning . we include one battery . i i uh i 'll explain its uh , the the components are listed over here . uh , price is given . we um yeah , marketing: the amount , yeah . project manager: we we uh indicate the amount of components of the specif specific component , how much we need of them . and then uh , we 'll uh calcula do n't watch the number yet . i do n't know if it 's filled in properly . okay , we need one battery . one battery . i think one battery is enough . industrial designer: yes . project manager: we do n't need kinetic , solar cells , hand dynamo . a s okay , this this is a p first problem . uh , i think we should know how many simple chips , regular chips industrial designer: uh it 's it 's one one chip , but but you have to choose one from it . project manager: okay . but industrial designer: the simple chip is e enough i i think , but with the lights with the lights and the retrieval , it can be uh marketing: i do n't know project manager: where did we find this information ? was it marketing: i have n't got an idea on on which we need to use , really . project manager: i think it was uh your job in the first uh meet uh , f your first presentation to make this clear , but then you had some t time problems . user interface: no . industrial designer: no , uh i yes , my my my uh marketing: yeah . industrial designer: the the email i got said uh simple chip , but when we put in the speaker and the retriever uh device , it will uh cost a a bit more , like i think the advanced chip maybe . marketing: yeah . and how do you know ? i mean , you got that email . did it point out what to use them for ? industrial designer: bec no , the they did n't know about a retriever or a speaker uh in it . project manager: maybe you can uh look it up right now . okay , but okay . when we do n't when we leave the uh retriever and such aside , what industrial designer: then it 's a simple chip . project manager: then it would be a simple chip . and with the retriever , it would be an advanced chip . industrial designer: yes , i i i s i marketing: alright , well , point out the advanced chip for now , i guess . project manager: okay . industrial designer: that will be enough for future uh recommendations . project manager: yeah , but it will it will it will be cause a lot of problems . the sample sensor sample speaker . what is it m is that the speaker we were t i do n't know what it is . industrial designer: i do n't know it uh either . marketing: i do n't know . project manager: okay , we went for the double-curved case industrial designer: yes . project manager: made out of plastic and rubber . and with a special colour . i guess that 's what we were user interface: well , special colour . . project manager: yeah , i do n't know about the special colour , but i think w uh industrial designer: otherwise , you get uh a standard uh plastic colour . user interface: i do n't marketing: i do n't know if it 's very special . project manager: yeah , i think we uh we have special colours . user interface: mm okay . industrial designer: standard rubber . marketing: alright , that 's okay . project manager: okay , then the push-button , i was just counting them . industrial designer: st project manager: uh , i think you have to indicate the amount of push-buttons we want to use , is n't it ? user interface: whoa , it 's a little project manager: well that 's bit of a problem , industrial designer: yes . project manager: because i re but i really do n't understand that , because i can imagine a remote control with far more push-buttons , and it would n't be possible according to this uh sheet . user interface: that 's huge . no . we have the simplest buttons . marketing: no . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: no , it 's only uh when you use push-buttons , it will cost that much . marketing: i do n't think so , because it says amount . industrial designer: if you use a scroll-wheel project manager: ah . yeah , it would n't marketing: the the the yellow row is the amount of project manager: fill in the number of components you plan to use in the and the total cost i do n't know . i industrial designer: maybe it 's the kind of push-buttons . you can have f four kind of push-buttons . user interface: uh , one til nine . industrial designer: rubber . user interface: is that one or is that nine buttons ? industrial designer: you can have uh project manager: and i count them like this . one two three uh four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve and thirteen . user interface: yeah . project manager: because oh , this is oh , this is one , okay . twelve , okay , then it would be eighteen , because uh , i uh rated them as uh um as uh uh uh separate buttons . marketing: to n industrial designer: different , marketing: that 's total of four buttons . project manager: yes . industrial designer: yes . project manager: and plus these two , f uh plus the mute button , and it 's will be uh eighteen . marketing: i think that eighteen . one two three four five , si industrial designer: why is that so uh expensive . project manager: yeah , i do n't understand . y i do i do n't get the point , because it 's would be s relatively so expensive , just these m small buttons . user interface: is it cents , the the the fifty cents a button ? marketing: fifty cents for one single stupid button . user interface: no way . industrial designer: so , whe when you so then it project manager: well , okay , well well let 's make it just one . industrial designer: it 's eighty percent of the price of the of the amount of project manager: here , now it 's now it 's already s marketing: yeah , exactly . yeah . project manager: shall we just give our own interpretation to , user interface: project manager: because else we would really have a problem . it would be impossible to make it marketing: i ca n't user interface: it 's way marketing: i i i could n't understand it if it was fifty cents per uh uh per button . really . industrial designer: when you have the same amount of button , you have to put in wi in your carton . board . project manager: and and less buttons than this is n't possible . industrial designer: and then throw it marketing: yeah , yeah , industrial designer: project manager: this is the most simple user interface: no , no no . project manager: yeah , it is possible , but i 've never seen one before . industrial designer: but whe project manager: industrial designer: i 've seen one uh one remote control with only the pu yeah , only with uh page up , page down and volume , project manager: marketing: no , really . project manager: yeah , without the numbers . that 's possible . yeah , we could skip the numbers . user interface: yeah , uh industrial designer: but but marketing: yeah , but i d i would n't want to own that . really . user interface: that 's still four . industrial designer: uh , it 's it 's still for little children . they can handle that remote control , marketing: yeah . project manager: then uh , teletext would also be im impossible . industrial designer: but but it is n't fo yes , it 's for it 's li uh it 's just for a little user interface: yeah , that 's no option , that 's no option . project manager: okay , we 'll we 'll just okay . but then still , when we there 's no room for a docking station or something . tha w le let 's see th we have uh oh yeah , button supplements . we 'll give the buttons special colour . we 'll give them a special form . uh , i think we should mark the special form thing , because it this will be some special forms incorporated in these big buttons , i guess . user interface: a special colour , why a special colour ? project manager: because the buttons will be uh d will be matching colour between the buttons and the rubber surroundings . user interface: but wha what s what special ? project manager: i think that 's the what they mean by a special colour . user interface: okay , yeah . industrial designer: otherwise , it user interface: uh , yeah . industrial designer: otherwise it would be the marketing: i do n't think the special form is really true . project manager: i think all the special colour things have to be marked over here , because that 's what we were planning to do , making it industrial designer: special form also , it says . project manager: yeah , special material r also , marketing: is it ? project manager: because i has rubber . and the buttons have to be rubber . industrial designer: what is the normal material ? user interface: plastic . marketing: yeah , i dunno . industrial designer: sh yeah . user interface: plastic , i think . industrial designer: classic ? user interface: plastic . industrial designer: oh , plastic . marketing: plastic . project manager: 'kay , but the problem now is that the there 's no such thing as a docking station in this list , but we can all imagine that it would be impossible to make a docking station for thirty cents . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but we can uh sell the remote control and uh sell the docking station project manager: separately . user interface: se no no no . industrial designer: yes . and and but we do n't have to tell it , but what we can say of can um almost make it impossible to buy a remote control without the docking station . project manager: yeah , yeah . yeah , but i do like the idea , but we yeah . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: it uh but it then the docking station is n't relevant for this project anymore , but we can marketing: no . industrial designer: no , but you otherwise you ca n't retrieve it . project manager: but then you still have to use we have to find out what chip we u need . marketing: yeah , i really do n't get it . i mean if it 's a simple chip , then we suddenly got two euros and thirty cents . project manager: i think we can agree on this . i i think the special colour thing has to be uh marked . 'cause i think we uh marketing: yeah , yep . project manager: yeah , i think that 's what what what they uh mean industrial designer: but for two euros and thirty cents , we uh we do n't get a docking station . marketing: i think so , too . oh , i do n't know . project manager: but can we find out uh about uh this chips ? because when we do n't need a d a docking station , then probably we also have only we also need a simple chip . user interface: and then we can get a docking station . project manager: and maybe then we can do something extra . oh , n uh oh , still industrial designer: for project manager: oh , it 's gon na get more expensive with . two . user interface: project manager: then we have some money left . we can put then industrial designer: for two euros . project manager: we can put a scroll-wheel on it or something . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: uh why ? project manager: yeah , well who knows . or a little bit of tin titanium . marketing: i mean i i if you if it would cost two euros , that had a total a total thing , it would be nice too , i mean uh we 're not gon na add uh a trip to hawaii to it . user interface: but what what can we do project manager: yeah , or we can ki do the kinetic cells . that 's also maybe an idea . user interface: but uh what can we do with the simple chip and what 's difference with a regular chip and a advanced chip ? project manager: yeah that 's what then what he has to find out . maybe you can uh find it in your email right now , then we know then we exactly know what it will cost us . user interface: if if i project manager: maybe is that that 's nice to know . user interface: regular chip and because we do n't have uh special functions to use uh in advanced chip , for example . project manager: yeah , bu bu but when we yeah , but when we skip when we um when we do n't use the do we 're not gon na make the docking station , then we still yeah , we need something else maybe to make it kind of special , marketing: i like the hand dynamo part . project manager: because that was our our special feature . marketing: we can make a plain docking station for two euros . user interface: yeah . we 'll go back uh tomorrow . marketing: i mean project manager: yeah , okay , you can also do that , but maybe marketing: wi wi without recharge project manager: it still is a special remote control cons uh you know , wi its form is special and material . marketing: yeah , but but we can make a docking station for two euros uh if you do n't put the recharge function in it . i mean , it has a shape . project manager: yeah , but for two euros , then we have still maybe we have to use the advanced chip , marketing: of course it has a shape , but i i project manager: then two euros is n't even possible . marketing: why should that not be possible ? project manager: yeah , then because then we 'd thirty cents left . marketing: no , for for the uh for the docking station if you do if you choose the simple chip . project manager: yeah , but yeah , i do n't know , because maybe d uh yeah , we have to find out with the simple chip . user interface: that 's the question . if we do i do we need an advanced chip , or is it okay f project manager: yeah , and w and and we uh need f marketing: yes . industrial designer: it is n't in my information , so i do n't know it uh either . project manager: and what is this ? sample sensor sample speaker . industrial designer: it is n't in my information , i uh i i 've got a schematic view of the remote control , but nothing about uh advanced chips or project manager: you can look at it for s presentation . s technical functions ? user interface: no . industrial designer: uh i 've got here in uh user interface: no no , they were uh mine , yeah . project manager: oh . industrial designer: i will put a i will put a page on it . when my mouse works again . project manager: oh , oh oh . hey . oh . industrial designer: my mouse is uh marketing: dead . industrial designer: yes . marketing: reanimate it . user interface: died . industrial designer: oh . ah , i 've got it . i will put uh my email on the the network . marketing: what the hell are these ? industrial designer: it 's on it . marketing: oh , whatever . user interface: yeah , it 's open . marketing: project manager: mm . i do n't think here it 's in here already . user interface: it 's circuit board . it 's only just basics for for project manager: it 's nothing about s yeah . user interface: at the end circuit there is an infrared led . industrial designer: yes . marketing: this is n't helpful . project manager: no . but i in the presentation of yours , there was also something about different components . which one was it ? user interface: components design . project manager: functional requirements ? industrial designer: um marketing: no , that was my presentation . user interface: components design maybe . n on top . industrial designer: yes , that was mine . project manager: ah . ah yes , it was the second one . industrial designer: but that was my second project manager: yeah , it was your second marketing: it 's already open . project manager: your first presentation . marketing: it 's at the bottom . project manager: sorry ? user interface: working design . marketing: it 's uh at your task bar . user interface: yeah , but it 's the the other one . marketing: oh . industrial designer: mm project manager: uh , this is n this is not this n user interface: was it working design or components design ? marketing: sorry . project manager: that 's not the right one . i do n't oh . marketing: okay , sorry . project manager: no , this is the other one . or maybe something is uh maybe there 's something abo in in these user interface: chip set . industrial designer: but this is the same uh this is o only the possibilities . project manager: here . industrial designer: yeah . we can use a simple , a regular , or advanced chip . marketing: yeah , nice . i it does n't say anything . user interface: the display requires an advanced chip . project manager: you know that a push-button requires a simple chip , but a scroll-wheel , it it me requires industrial designer: ah , okay . project manager: okay , so we only need a simple chip . user interface: requires . industrial designer: with the light . user interface: little lights . yeah , but that that 's just the same as the the led . project manager: no no , that 's just a simple chip . a scroll-wheel marketing: that 's not needed . project manager: it s uh only states that a scroll-wheel requires a regular chip , and that a display requires an advanced chip . so , we do n't need any of them . marketing: a display uh is , of course , uh for showing letters . for showing text . industrial designer: lcd . user interface: yeah . marketing: i do n't think that uh just a l a little light user interface: no . i think uh the uh normal uh simple chip will be okay . marketing: yeah , i agree . project manager: and what 's the sample sensor slash sample speaker ? industrial designer: maybe you can say against the remote uh page uh f uh page up , page down . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , i guess so too . user interface: yeah , true . well , that 's not too what we want . marketing: next channel . no . well , we might want it , but user interface: project manager: okay . industrial designer: all in twelve euros . project manager: back to the costs . industrial designer: twelve euros and fifty cents . marketing: yeah . project manager: so we 're gon na use the simple chip . user interface: so , simple chip is okay . marketing: great . delete . industrial designer: and the lights . where uh are the lights ? marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , lights , yeah , there 's no marketing: well , there 're three , i guess . user interface: category . project manager: nah , there is some money left to be spent . user interface: can we do it wi within two two euro ? marketing: i think we can make a docking station . yeah . project manager: okay , but what we have to think about now is that is is it still a special remote control ? but i mean it is n't it has n't got any innovative technology , we are n't gon na apply any uh innovated innovative te technology anyway , i think . i do n't i do n't see any possibility to do so , because it would would n't fit our defi design philosophy . user interface: mm-hmm . but it 's original . project manager: but what w is there some extra marketing: no , that 's true . project manager: maybe i think maybe the kinetic thing is something . instead of the rechargeable the rechargeable thing was something to um know , so y so people would n't have to worry about their batteries anymore . marketing: m bu project manager: maybe we if we put the kinetic thing in it industrial designer: but but sometimes you put a project manager: yeah , you leave the p yeah , i know , but still i they will think about that . i mean if you u industrial designer: kinetics are n't uh nowadays only used in watches and that 's because you 're always walking . project manager: the uh it 's made for s people well , the they do n't if it was uh uh r useless technology , they would n't put it uh as a possibility . industrial designer: uh solar cells are useless . project manager: and i it it th th the the target marketing: or the hand dynamo dynamo project manager: the target uh group are people who zap regularly and throw with their remote control as a matter of speaking . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: because i think it when when there w was a remote control where it was useful to have a kinetic uh uh power source , then it would be this one . because it 's one it gets thrown around thrown around a lot and it gets used a lot hey that maybe that 's cool that 's a cool thing about it , you know . you do n't use batteries . marketing: yeah , but but if we ca project manager: i 've never seen it before in a remote control . user interface: but then we could make a docking station . marketing: i do n't know if five minutes . project manager: no , we we we ca n't make a docking station anyway . marketing: that 's not true . project manager: yeah , we can als or uh also m we we can make one user interface: wow , w why no li marketing: we can make a docking station for two thirty . project manager: we can still make user interface: look at now , we got two industrial designer: fo for a docking station . marketing: two thirty . user interface: two thirty left . ca ca n't we make a docking station of that ? marketing: we can make a docking station . sure . industrial designer: with a cable , with uh buttons on it , with retrieval uh device in it . marketing: sure . user interface: i do n't know . marketing: the power device is is i i is very cheap . project manager: marketing: that 's just a regular uh power cable and whatever . project manager: yeah , but be serious , then uh the docking station will be a fifth of the price of the remote control . industrial designer: wi with a button to user interface: well , we we uh industrial designer: wi with a button to retrieve it , so it will beep . marketing: so . industrial designer: uh , so it 's uh wireless technology . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , but we uh we do n't inc we have n't looked at the these costs of the speaker and other stuff . i do n't think it 's realistic for you to do so . marketing: well then it 's a useless project . industrial designer: look at the case , project manager: oh , because we industrial designer: the case the case of of uh of uh user interface: yeah , then we do n't have any innovation things . project manager: we well look at all the special stuff we have . colour a the colours are special , the form is special . it th this is whole concept . uh maybe it with the kinetic thing , i think we could do uh do a compromise uh with the kim kinetic thing . marketing: ca n't we uh ca n't we say fifteen euros ? project manager: uh , no . user interface: marketing: no , sta yeah i mean industrial designer: no , then we have to sell it for thirty euros . marketing: no . user interface: no , we only make less profit of it . industrial designer: it 's the marketing: you can sell for twenty seven and a half . then you make as much profit as you would with twelve and a half production costs . user interface: no . project manager: yeah , i don my suggestion is to just forget about the whole docking station thing and make it uh like a uh uh i i i i still fee i also feel this concept of making it kinetic , because of the you know , it g it gives something dynamic to the remote control . marketing: i do n't think industrial designer: maybe we can uh can do it both . maybe we can do it both uh in the in the in the remote . battery and kinetic . marketing: no . project manager: no , that would n't n no . marketing: thirteen twenty . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: yeah , and it is also not a good it 's not you have to really do it only kinetic , you do n't want it to think about batteries anymore . marketing: and i think only industrial designer: yes , but when it 's then when it marketing: yeah , but only kinetic , then you got ta project manager: no no . industrial designer: then you have to shake it uh and all when it 's when it 's empty . project manager: yeah , it 's great . marketing: you you got ta throw uh throw it through the room like twenty times an hour , really . industrial designer: project manager: no no no . no no , this is very sophisticated technology technology . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: when you use it your remote like once a day , or maybe even less i i it industrial designer: you asked for three d no , that 's n that 's not true . uh , a watch is uh kinetic because you walk all the time . marketing: no . project manager: it we can make it yeah no . becau be but a remote control gets why do they state that this technology can be used if it industrial designer: yes , solar cells are also stated . project manager: yeah , m but a w uh uh n uh a calculator also works on r on solar cells . industrial designer: why do n't we use solar cells then ? project manager: because i think the d whole dynamic part , do you know , appeals to me qui uh thinking of our design philosophy , you know , with the rubber parts and uh sturdiness of the thing , and y when you move it around a lot , then people find the idea funny that when i move my remote control around and industrial designer: that 's true . marketing: yeah , it 's funny for a week . i guess something like that , where you have to move it around very frequently , is demotivating . project manager: yeah , but you do n't have to . trust me . the idea of this technology is that you do n't think about it , it just happens . marketing: no , i i do n't move my uh my remote control very much , seriously . project manager: okay , then we d okay , well y we do n't have to do it , but what that would just have a lack of key features , you know . industrial designer: oui . project manager: you m have to put something on your box . you have to make people buy it and uh we can really can do the docking thing , uh it 's not yeah , uh we can do it , but it 's would be a easy way out . industrial designer: you can do it for fifty cents . user interface: marketing: well , we 've got more than fifty cents . project manager: okay , but we have to grou to agree upon something , industrial designer: the c the case the case alone is is is uh project manager: because uh we only have a minute left or so . industrial designer: the case alone for uh remote control is at least one euro . then we have one euro thirty for the whole docking station . project manager: no no , it 's not possible . okay , w b we can s we can leave it on be well then then th it 's this is then then our concept is ready . user interface: cheap remote control . project manager: yeah , we make some extra profit of it . marketing: yeah . no , we wo n't , but that 's um something else . user interface: it w it wo n't tell , but industrial designer: but now marketing: no , this not gon na sell . no . project manager: huh , any ideas ? marketing: of course not . user interface: no , uh , n no industrial designer: great . it 's great . user interface: yeah , we just have to go all what we did today again . you have to do it over . industrial designer: our remote control . marketing: we come back tomorrow , okay ? project manager: no no uh there 's still there 's still someth concept and something special left . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes . user interface: the industrial designer: seventy euros . project manager: i mean we 're gon na it 's gon na excel in in on in the the range in the field of design and and uh looks and feel . user interface: no , but no . project manager: that 's what it 's makes it special . yeah , and i would li i would have liked a kinetic part as well , to give it some just to give it some extra special feature , and uh i know it will work , but uh it 's it 's an they 're they 're not putting technologies on this , but if it if it was impossible to to make it happen . industrial designer: why not a hand dynamo then ? user interface: project manager: okay , well we leave it like this . then it 's c then we 're yeah . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: we ca n't do anything else . warning , finish meeting now . industrial designer: we 're done . project manager: okay , project e uh industrial designer: is this it ? project manager: well , we were gon na what look take a look at the last sheet . marketing: yeah , sure . industrial designer: okay . marketing: no , we ca n't . project manager: yeah , we have to yeah , it 's user interface: no . industrial designer: yes . marketing: yes , yes . celebration . i do n't see why , but industrial designer: where 's the champagne ? marketing: i think we got ta fill out another questionnaire , to be honest . user interface: yeah ? industrial designer: i do n't uh hear a bell . marketing: no , not yet . industrial designer: user interface: we can do it here then . marketing: alright , i 'll see you guys in a minute . industrial designer: bye . user interface: can we ca n't we do it here ? marketing: i do n't think so . i do n't know . i do n't i do n't think so . user interface: industrial designer: uh-huh . just fill that one in . user interface: yeah , we 're doing now . but it 's . oh , okay . project manager: uh , i do n't know . user interface: nice .

the prototype was a pretty simple design with an obvious company logo on it and two buttons in the middle . there were also power buttons and nine others for switching channels with the incorporation of the menu and teletext . in the middle there was a part of hard material , a bit of hard plastic with a light behind it . in terms of materials and color , the team designed one colour for the plastic enclosure and one colour for the rubber buttons . also , the team agreed that the company logo , together with the standard color could be the company 's identity . last but not least , the current device did not include the docking station but the marketing expressed his interest towards it and the team decided to reconsider it in the following parts of the meeting .

how did marketing design the product evaluation ? </s> project manager: okay , welcome to the detailed design meeting . again , i 'm gon na take minutes . oh , we 're gon na have a prototype presentation first . user interface: project manager: uh , who 's gon na give the prototype presentation ? you two guys ? okay . go ahead . industrial designer: yes . user interface: . marketing: . user interface: coffee . marketing: industrial designer: 'kay , we 've made a prototype . um , we 've got uh uh our aspects from the last meeting . uh , especially we looked at the form , material and the colour . um , we 've uh drawn here the p prototype . the logo is uh is uh is pretty uh obvious to see on the on the remote control , user interface: industrial designer: but it is necessary when you want to build your uh company f to a level higher . um , our interface elements , there are shown in the in the drawing . maybe you can uh point them uh the functions . user interface: uh , well the uh all the functions are discussed uh i think the most of the functions are uh uh obvious . uh , it 's a little bit . uh , power button . uh then the the the nine uh channels . project manager: user interface: uh the volume uh uh at the side , and the other side is the programmes . and then we had uh just uh two buttons , we place them in the middle , uh the menu , and for the teletext project manager: oh no , the the the mute button misses now . user interface: i thought that was th marketing: alright , i project manager: do y do you user interface: oh , the mute button . project manager: did we want to have a m mute button ? industrial designer: but uh that marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it 's uh here then , in the middle . user interface: yeah . project manager: huh . marketing: alright , and uh you got ta point out which is the volume um uh button and which is the programme button . industrial designer: yes , um user interface: well , yeah mo uh mo industrial designer: we 've disc user interface: yeah , well most of them are right-handed . industrial designer: most of the users marketing: yeah , but you you got ta make it clear on the on user interface: yeah well , i do n't have time in uh anymore on the industrial designer: yes , y there there will be a p a little a little p_ on that and a little uh yeah . marketing: yeah , and a and a triangle on that . user interface: oh yeah , just progr programme above , i think . marketing: yes . next to that i kinda miss a zero actually . user interface: project manager: wait , there 's was one thing i wanted to ask . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: project manager: uh , there are different ways for remote controls to uh do uh like marketing: project manager: uh d i call it teens and twenties . uh , y th th th the two numbers . industrial designer: yes . marketing: all n no , that 's um kinda dependent on the television . user interface: yeah , true , yeah . industrial designer: it 's a television . yes . project manager: yeah , but do we have do we need extra buttons , user interface: uh project manager: for example some uh some have to user interface: uh i think so . marketing: i think industrial designer: yes , yes , you have you have a lot of standard buttons that has to be uh on it , uh th with the one and a double uh uh marketing: yeah , i think you should add user interface: zero ? marketing: a cross , or whatever . yeah , line . project manager: yeah , but you do n't you do n't actually need them , user interface: may maybe here ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: becau b l a lot of remote controls work that y when y that you when you fir you push the one first , then you have a couple of seconds user interface: yeah . and then a second . marketing: no , that 's dependent on the television . project manager: no , i do n't think so . industrial designer: yes , you have televisions , then you have to , you know , you have to uh press marketing: i do know so . user interface: is it depending on television ? project manager: nah , i do n't think so really , marketing: yeah . project manager: because you have a i know some remote controls that do n't have these buttons , but you still can , know , obviously you can still select the twenty uh a number in the twenty or in the ten . industrial designer: yes , but but a lot uh marketing: yes , but uh uh no uh remote control nowadays are um they come with the television . or actually , the other way around . project manager: no , i think uh i really think it 's n marketing: but project manager: because you can when when you put a button on it with like one and uh then a dash , it 's the same thing as when you just push the one , marketing: yeah . project manager: because it i it first gives you the functionality of that that uh separate button you also had to uh apply . industrial designer: yes , but marketing: yeah , well but su if industrial designer: some televisions do n't accept uh that that project manager: yeah , because that 's i it 's for television . it 's exact the same thing . industrial designer: no , no , but s marketing: no no no . so some television respond differently . look , if uh i i project manager: no , listen listen . when you push the button , the remote control gives a signal . i in th in the first place it gives a signal which it would also send when you put a separate button on it . marketing: yes . yes , that 's true . project manager: the one with dash , that signal gi and when y whe when you do n't push another button on the remote control within five seconds , then the remote control gives a signal for channel one . user interface: yeah . true . marketing: no project manager: i think it works that way , really . marketing: no , it it it works uh if you have n't got uh a special button for it , uh if you push a one , then on your television there will appear a one and a a line , which is an empty space . project manager: yeah , but it 's exact the same that w would appear when you put a separate button push a separate button . industrial designer: yes , but some some old televisions uh you have to uh click on uh a special button , uh then you go to a a next level , you can push two buttons . project manager: yeah , but you do n't underst uh you do n't understand my point . marketing: yep . true . project manager: i think it 's exact the same thing when y industrial designer: you want yes , but some television do n't support it . project manager: no , but then they would a would also support that button , because it 's the same thing . user interface: but the ex project manager: listen , with that that 's that special but button you 're talking about , eh ? that 's just a signal to recei ju they send a t signal to the v tv tv that they have to put a one in on your screen and a dash , which you can pu so you can uh still put another number on it . when you do n't have that separate button , and you push y one , it 's exactly the same thing . do y you the remote control gives that same signal as it would give when you only had industrial designer: no , marketing: no , s some some televisions need the input first uh and and you c industrial designer: a remote can project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yes , project manager: but you give the input . industrial designer: so they need no , they need project manager: you push the one . that 's the same thing as the button with the one and it marketing: no , that 's not true . project manager: yes it it is . marketing: it 's simply not true . it 's simply not true . project manager: think about it . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: no , user interface: you uh you can wai when you push the one you can show on the telly a one and just a dash , and then wait uh two uh seconds or something industrial designer: but uh marketing: uh project manager: and it 's the same thing what happens and a g remote control gives another signal after five seconds that is just one . marketing: no , remote control does n't give signal after five seconds . remote control is a stupid thing . if you push a button , it sends it immediately to to the television . project manager: yeah , that 's true . yeah , but i m uh but it 's i i know for sure that some televisions that w th th the remote control supplied , only ha has the c these buttons with a one and a dash and a two and a dash , but when you use a bu a n remote control that does n't sport these buttons , it still works . industrial designer: yeah , it project manager: but okay , we we 'll impl marketing: no , definitely not . definitely not . user interface: we 'll discuss them in the usability lab . project manager: no , we 'll apply them then for now . user interface: uh eva evaluation . marketing: user interface: i do n't know uh i do n't know if if it 's it 's necessary . project manager: yeah , app just apply them next to the zero , the one and the two . user interface: yeah ? project manager: yeah , i think so . yeah , for now , if we do n't know for sure whether user interface: okay . industrial designer: and the button for the scart uh audio video uh external input . marketing: yes . user interface: ach . project manager: yeah but marketing: uh , you can access that uh via zero , and then minus , i guess . project manager: okay . what i said about uh the remote control sending another signal , that that might not be true , marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: but i still think i it it all tvs in some ways support it , i do n't know . i think it 's more c is m maybe we do n't uh we both do n't really understand how it i how it really works , industrial designer: no , no . project manager: but i think there 's more to in than wha than what you just said . industrial designer: uh , remote control sends one signal at one button uh press . project manager: i do think that uh m tvs support mur multiple kind of remote controls . m industrial designer: uh , some n some televisions when when you want to go further than uh ten project manager: th wo n't work wi with uh industrial designer: no , you have to you have to uh give the television uh two or more signals . project manager: to have that special button . industrial designer: when you uh press one button , you give one signal . and the older televisions need more signals to go a level higher . but project manager: okay , well we 'll see . marketing: yep . industrial designer: when you make the technology that that it will uh give more signals , it could work , but just a basic idea of of of the most uh most y most common uh and simple uh operations on the remote . marketing: okay . i kinda miss the docking station . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes . it 's here on the user interface: marketing: user interface: well it industrial designer: user interface: yeah , uh there 's nothing i think it 's pretty basic , industrial designer: we came uh user interface: the the there 's no fu industrial designer: yes . user interface: there 's one there 's one button , marketing: no nothing really trendy about it . user interface: that 's wha there 's there 's there 's one function and that 's n the one button when you want to find it . industrial designer: but maybe we can maybe we can make the docking station uh uh a bit standard for for uh the other products we sell , marketing: the button . industrial designer: because real real reaction sells more products than only remote controls . so maybe we can uh use the docking station , for example , uh m_p_ three players or or uh marketing: yep . industrial designer: uh hearing devices . marketing: i think that 's very difficult , because of different shapes of uh uh devices . industrial designer: yes , but when you put that same volt voltages on it , you can put uh when the when the when uh o the the the lowest part of it , when it 's o the same as the other products , you can put it all on the same uh marketing: yeah , of course . mm-hmm . well it it got it it has got to fit into the shape , of course . industrial designer: yes , but we can make marketing: the technology and the voltage can be the same . that 's uh that 's true . but uh i if you all make the m having a bottom like this , then they all fit . industrial designer: no , we can make uh make the most lowest part all the same . marketing: yeah , that 's true , but uh industrial designer: when when the the recharger has a has a bit what points out , we can place all on top of it . just have to be big enough for the biggest marketing: yes , but uh i i g should n't it fall then ? it is n't going to fall down ? that 's a bit uh industrial designer: no , when you make it large enough no it it will not . marketing: yeah , i think industrial designer: but then it 's a little bit marketing: no , but if if like this , i 'll i 'll point it out , if you got uh a a a base a base like this , industrial designer: but it 's just an idea . marketing: i wo n't draw it really . if you got a base which is uh as big as this industrial designer: but it 's flat it 's flat as as this , so we can p make all the products as flat as this . user interface: you can . but i i i it 's backwards . marketing: yeah sure , but if you got if you got a tiny player , it can industrial designer: yes , but when you make uh uh a bit of big user interface: but it 's it 's backwards . it 's leaning . it 's leaning backwards , i think , in the in the docking station . marketing: yeah . uh , wha what you could do if you uh from the bottom user interface: that 's text . marketing: oh , right , help . project manager: but user interface: marketing: uh , you could make like a hole in it , you know , of uh in in the industrial designer: yes , little holer littler uh , little products go deeper in it . marketing: yeah . that i that is possible , yep . project manager: well let 's ha let 's talk about the docking station later , because uh maybe we have we have to uh consider the docking station anyway , because we have some uh cost issues still to come . marketing: yeah , sure , you 're right . industrial designer: yes . and uh uh marketing: oh . project manager: but we have to look n i do n't know . industrial designer: the f the look and feel would be great on this uh remote control , because uh you always uh will uh pick up the remote control in the in the smallest uh area . marketing: i do n't like the colours . mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: then your uh left thumb of uh your right thumb is uh near the programme uh button , which is the most common used uh function , and all the other buttons are available for your uh thumb . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so it 's it 's it 's really good design . marketing: yeah . alright . project manager: yes . that 's it ? industrial designer: yes , uh on the side uh there will be a strip of rubber , and in the middle uh there is uh a hard uh a hard material , a bit hard plastic with a light uh behind it . marketing: the light . okay . and other lights ? project manager: i think added lights are gon na be a problem too . industrial designer: yes , we can make also n neon lights on it , or or the buttons that can make uh light on it . marketing: no , o on the on the front . yeah , okay . maybe the uh the logo . industrial designer: yes . user interface: lights ? industrial designer: but , it will also uh uh use batteries , marketing: yeah , why not ? industrial designer: and do we want to marketing: of course . project manager: okay . for now , uh this is uh is good enough . user interface: mm . project manager: yeah , what was uh on the marketing: okay . industrial designer: the all the aspects of the interface buttons were uh project manager: okay , but in the oh yeah , the colour , because we 're gon na use uh one colour for the the plastic enclosure and one colour for the rubber , is n't it ? then we 're gon na do the buttons in the i are we 're gon na have rubber buttons . industrial designer: yes . project manager: and they 're be a they 'll be in the same colour as the rubber on the side . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes . marketing: uh , in the same colour as the side . user interface: yeah . yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah , i think i think that 'll be good . project manager: okay . and i think we should use a a darker colour for the um plastic , and maybe some more m brighter and flashy stuff industrial designer: yes , maybe we can use on the on the lights on the side we can use uh uh multiple uh lights , marketing: yes . industrial designer: so it will uh project manager: yeah , we 'll talk about the lights later . 'cause i also don yeah , industrial designer: yes . marketing: yep . project manager: it 's depends on the costs and such . but uh , and we have to agree uh upon the exact colours , marketing: yeah . project manager: but may i dunno if that 's important , but we 'll talk about that later . okay , for now this is this is okay . marketing: we will . project manager: um , the next p y you gon na give a presentation too ? uh , i have to see the agenda . industrial designer: no . marketing: well , uh yeah , i i 'm gon na do something right there , yeah . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: detail design . marketing: we got ta do that on the right the most right-most screen , because the leftmost project manager: evaluation criteria . marketing: yep , that 's me . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: alright . i will be needing that image , so leave it please . um go away . right , we 're gon na evaluate that design according to a few points . um , we g the four of us are going to do that um together . project manager: marketing: i wan na have a colour over here , come on . right , the remote is not ugly , a bit weird sentence , but the positive things has to be on the left , so i said not ugly instead of ugly . user interface: marketing: uh , what would you say , we we got ta give points to uh to all of these to evaluate uh that design , and please forget the drawing skills of these guys . user interface: project manager: okay . industrial designer: marketing: the remote control is not ugly . how do you feel ? project manager: yeah , i think four maybe would be appropriate , because it 's yeah , maybe it really depends on taste . uh , i mean it 's kind of , our design . it 's marketing: yes . project manager: so if maybe a lot of people find it really ugly , you know , o other people find it really cool . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: background colour . project manager: i do n't know or uh i do n't know how you casting . yeah . industrial designer: i think i think the the fronts will give it a more uh uh uh less uglier uh side , because you can uh make it in your own marketing: how do you guys feel ? the different designs . industrial designer: yes , you can make it in your own uh marketing: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: more to your own personality or or house style . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah , but we d we did n't we 're we 're not planning to use fronts , i believe . marketing: no , not not fronts , but different designs . project manager: with a colour a co a colours . oh , okay . user interface: no , not fronts . different designs . different colours maybe , yeah . industrial designer: yes . marketing: and that 's still uh uh , yeah , is is uh is a little personal touch , i guess . project manager: okay , but oh , maybe we should do three or something that w you know , our marketing: what ? yeah , wha wha what would you uh guys uh think ? personally . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: or forty . user interface: we can make it a one . marketing: personally . yes , but what is it ? industrial designer: i think two or three . user interface: mm yeah . marketing: guido ? user interface: i agree . marketing: two or three . user interface: um , i uh i go for the positive . so i go for two . marketing: i was i was thinking about three , so i guess project manager: uh , i was thinking about four , so i think three is uh user interface: okay , three . marketing: three is uh a bit uh oh , what am i doing ? i 'll mark it . the remote control 's uh uh that n makes uh zapping easy . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah well , let that let 's make that a one . industrial designer: yes . user interface: two . one . one . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: yes . marketing: antek , you agree ? user interface: okay yeah , i 'll i 'll agree . industrial designer: yes . project manager: that 's one thing for sure . marketing: yeah . you 're not antek . user interface: i 'm the i 'm the usability , so marketing: i totally agree . the remote control the remote control 's relevant buttons are prominently visible . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , two or a one , i guess . user interface: the project manager: it 's something we really put work into . marketing: yeah , i yeah . industrial designer: it 's all about the buttons . marketing: i would say a one because uh every button is uh uh relevant . and our oh yeah , it 's a b yeah . yeah ? alright . that 's a one ? you agree ? project manager: yeah . marketing: the remote control has n't got too much redundant or unneeded buttons . i think we totally succeeded there . project manager: but user interface: well project manager: well maybe a two , because of the menu button or something . marketing: oh user interface: yeah , well menu yeah , maybe . marketing: yeah , that 's true . that 's true . project manager: and telete industrial designer: also , the the the buttons of the one , the two , the the digits , project manager: yeah , we do n't know if the uh they 're necessary . industrial designer: o they 're used uh uh marketing: the the yeah , m well , you d you 've got a point . project manager: i think a two . user interface: yeah , true . yeah , i agree . industrial designer: can yes , three , two . project manager: came a long way , but not we did n't not uh marketing: two or three ? user interface: mm two . industrial designer: but you ca n't make a remote control without them , marketing: two ? antek . user interface: because we got industrial designer: because marketing: nay that that that 's true , that 's true . they 're definitely needed . project manager: no , w w it can also always be more simplistic , but two is marketing: so we put it on a two ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yes . marketing: the remote control has got a really trendy look . user interface: industrial designer: yes . a one . project manager: yeah , uh a t i think a two . marketing: maarten . user interface: well . industrial designer: project manager: yeah yeah , y i it 's hard to say from this picture . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: we we 've tried to make it uh the the best trendy look uh ever . user interface: yeah . marketing: ever , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: guido . project manager: but i do think it 's more user interface: uh , i will i will make it a three , because uh yeah . i i th project manager: but i do think that it 's more trendy than beautiful . industrial designer: yes . marketing: yeah , uh i agree . i agree . project manager: so so i think maybe it has to score higher uh on this than on the user interface: yeah . true , yeah . marketing: i was planning to give it a two , uh where i give the not ugly uh project manager: a th a three . marketing: oh , yeah , that 's true . you agree on the two ? user interface: yeah . project manager: i i uh when you compare to the industrial designer: yes . marketing: great . remote control has n't got too much redundant or unneeded buttons . project manager: uh uh what 's the difference with user interface: marketing: uh , i copied that one . well , uh forget that . project manager: okay . marketing: um go away . remote control has got innovative technology implanted . user interface: no . we 're not project manager: no . industrial designer: no . user interface: well , maybe the the the on the side . industrial designer: no , not lcd , so . project manager: yeah , but we uh you mean the rubber stuff ? marketing: yeah , and the light . project manager: yeah , but we have t we have to talk about the lights uh . user interface: and the light maybe . industrial designer: but that that 's not innovative . user interface: but project manager: and i do n't u also it 's also really not innovative , industrial designer: lights lights are marketing: well , i g project manager: it 's more marketing: it 's not seven ? project manager: no , six . or seven maybe , yeah . user interface: well , six . no , six . project manager: or six . industrial designer: six . marketing: why uh why not a seven ? user interface: six . project manager: yeah , mine is seven . industrial designer: because we 've tried to make it a little bit innovative , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but it but it project manager: uh it 's uh depends on the on the maybe marketing: how ? industrial designer: with the lights it it 's it 's kind of future user interface: project manager: no , i think i think actually it 's a seven maybe , but there 's nothing innovative about it . marketing: yeah , you think the lights are innovative ? well , it 's n true . uh , i agree , industrial designer: but still you can retrieve it when it 's when it 's gone , with the with marketing: m but user interface: innovative in generally or just f original for marketing: i 'll yeah , you you did n't draw the docking station . industrial designer: yes . the docking station is a is a little bit innovative . project manager: n no no , marketing: yeah , it it 's i think i think with its project manager: t . user interface: a docking station is innova project manager: yeah , i mean the dock station , but but uh , i think the the docking station , it 's gon na be a kind of a problem . user interface: industrial designer: it 's a part of the remote . marketing: i think more m user interface: okay . industrial designer: and with the speaker on the there 's also a speaker . project manager: but marketing: uh that that 's n project manager: well , let 's leave it open for uh for us later to see what , because we have to reevaluate anyway . well i i yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: no ? marketing: no uh , well , the agenda says evaluate now , so i think we project manager: okay , for now it 's a six or a seven uh , sev marketing: it 's it 's a six . project manager: six maybe , user interface: six . project manager: because industrial designer: but the retrieval or the marketing: that m f project manager: yeah , but i do n't i do n't know if it 's very inno yeah . marketing: yeah , for the retrieval function . yeah . i think that 's very innovative for a remote control . project manager: yeah , v industrial designer: yes , how would you innovate a remote control more ? project manager: yeah , more through uh like function tv functionalities and industrial designer: to put it on your head . project manager: no no , you know what i mean . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: you have must be innovative technology for remote controls , but more in how you control stuff , not in how you find your marketing: yeah sure , but project manager: yeah . yeah , it 's marketing: but i d i definitely do n't think it 's a five , project manager: that 's that 's think about it la later on marketing: but project manager: and uh marketing: remote control is easy to use . project manager: yeah , as a a one or a two ma uh at least . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah , a two . industrial designer: yes . marketing: i think a two . project manager: yeah , it 's good . marketing: yeah ? user interface: more two . marketing: come on . the remote control has n't got uh . project manager: no , i would have seen that one before . oh , you skipped one uh industrial designer: marketing: i 've just filled uh project manager: uh , here . marketing: go away . industrial designer: you like the buttons . marketing: i found twelve questions so much , but it still is ten . project manager: remote control will be bought by marketing: it will be bought by people under the age of forty . project manager: yeah . definitely . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yes . project manager: well industrial designer: in in and comparing with uh people of th of the age above ? marketing: no no no . no , just if they if they buy it . project manager: uh , just in general . yeah , a two . industrial designer: we do n't know . but project manager: yeah , but i think i think two . marketing: yeah , what do you think ? user interface: yeah , i think two , yeah . i agree . two . marketing: antek ? industrial designer: yes , two , but only in c when you compare it with with elderly . project manager: uh , that is not the question . it 's just w it will be bought by people under forty . marketing: no , that 's no comparison . project manager: yeah , you can yeah , you can be very picky about it . marketing: and i do n't mean two people . industrial designer: this is just guessing . project manager: ah yeah , just make it we 'll make it a two . industrial designer: make it a two . marketing: w w industrial designer: when it succeeds , uh it can get a two , mu marketing: right , the rem the remote control has recognisable corporate image , colour , logo or slogan . project manager: oh no . yeah . yeah , you have make an user interface: we do n't have the slogan though . project manager: slogan is quite obvious . marketing: oh , the slogan . project manager: oh the oh sorry , no , not not the slogan . marketing: can we see the slogan ? project manager: yeah , you can put that on the side if if we would like to . user interface: the logo . industrial designer: a logo . user interface: underneath it or something . industrial designer: yes , uh encrypted uh with project manager: yeah , and i will i th still think it 's gon na be a two or a three . marketing: are we gon na do that ? user interface: a three . three . project manager: maybe a three this time . user interface: yeah , a three . industrial designer: yes . marketing: three ? i agree . because of the slogan project manager: and uh marketing: remote control 's got a basic design intended uh for novice users . project manager: uh , it 's a one or a two . user interface: yeah , two . industrial designer: yes . project manager: yeah , make it a two . user interface: two . marketing: two ? two . alright . we got ta add up the scores now to see our total average . four , five , seven , nine . forget that . fifteen , seventeen , twenty one , twenty four , twenty six . twenty six . it 's a two point six . project manager: it 's not that bad . marketing: alright , we project manager: yeah , and that 's mostly the inno marketing: yeah . project manager: when we uh score higher on innovative technology , we would score two , marketing: yeah . true . project manager: which is uh quite a great score . okay . uh , this is was uh the evaluation ? marketing: this was my evaluation . so project manager: because i i still think that the most important part of this meeting still has marketing: we did a pretty nice job until now . project manager: yeah . marketing: um , is this your industrial designer: is there something after this uh meeting ? or marketing: whatever . well , i think we got ta fill out another questionnaire . user interface: no . okay , yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: still opened or uh yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , finance . because um user interface: shoot . project manager: i received uh a spreadsheet . marketing: a five . a five . project manager: yeah , but i uh actually do n't need this presentation , i guess . oh . marketing: does n't matter . project manager: i 'm gon na open the spreadsheet and we 're gon na work this out together , because i did n't really fin uh i have a . user interface: project manager: did n't really finish it . well , we uh we 'll see . we 'll stumble upon some problems . marketing: we probably will . project manager: i probably have already opened it here . try it again . first of all , the mm all the docking station and costs and such are not included in this list . but let 's let 's st start with beginning . we include one battery . i i uh i 'll explain its uh , the the components are listed over here . uh , price is given . we um yeah , marketing: the amount , yeah . project manager: we we uh indicate the amount of components of the specif specific component , how much we need of them . and then uh , we 'll uh calcula do n't watch the number yet . i do n't know if it 's filled in properly . okay , we need one battery . one battery . i think one battery is enough . industrial designer: yes . project manager: we do n't need kinetic , solar cells , hand dynamo . a s okay , this this is a p first problem . uh , i think we should know how many simple chips , regular chips industrial designer: uh it 's it 's one one chip , but but you have to choose one from it . project manager: okay . but industrial designer: the simple chip is e enough i i think , but with the lights with the lights and the retrieval , it can be uh marketing: i do n't know project manager: where did we find this information ? was it marketing: i have n't got an idea on on which we need to use , really . project manager: i think it was uh your job in the first uh meet uh , f your first presentation to make this clear , but then you had some t time problems . user interface: no . industrial designer: no , uh i yes , my my my uh marketing: yeah . industrial designer: the the email i got said uh simple chip , but when we put in the speaker and the retriever uh device , it will uh cost a a bit more , like i think the advanced chip maybe . marketing: yeah . and how do you know ? i mean , you got that email . did it point out what to use them for ? industrial designer: bec no , the they did n't know about a retriever or a speaker uh in it . project manager: maybe you can uh look it up right now . okay , but okay . when we do n't when we leave the uh retriever and such aside , what industrial designer: then it 's a simple chip . project manager: then it would be a simple chip . and with the retriever , it would be an advanced chip . industrial designer: yes , i i i s i marketing: alright , well , point out the advanced chip for now , i guess . project manager: okay . industrial designer: that will be enough for future uh recommendations . project manager: yeah , but it will it will it will be cause a lot of problems . the sample sensor sample speaker . what is it m is that the speaker we were t i do n't know what it is . industrial designer: i do n't know it uh either . marketing: i do n't know . project manager: okay , we went for the double-curved case industrial designer: yes . project manager: made out of plastic and rubber . and with a special colour . i guess that 's what we were user interface: well , special colour . . project manager: yeah , i do n't know about the special colour , but i think w uh industrial designer: otherwise , you get uh a standard uh plastic colour . user interface: i do n't marketing: i do n't know if it 's very special . project manager: yeah , i think we uh we have special colours . user interface: mm okay . industrial designer: standard rubber . marketing: alright , that 's okay . project manager: okay , then the push-button , i was just counting them . industrial designer: st project manager: uh , i think you have to indicate the amount of push-buttons we want to use , is n't it ? user interface: whoa , it 's a little project manager: well that 's bit of a problem , industrial designer: yes . project manager: because i re but i really do n't understand that , because i can imagine a remote control with far more push-buttons , and it would n't be possible according to this uh sheet . user interface: that 's huge . no . we have the simplest buttons . marketing: no . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: no , it 's only uh when you use push-buttons , it will cost that much . marketing: i do n't think so , because it says amount . industrial designer: if you use a scroll-wheel project manager: ah . yeah , it would n't marketing: the the the yellow row is the amount of project manager: fill in the number of components you plan to use in the and the total cost i do n't know . i industrial designer: maybe it 's the kind of push-buttons . you can have f four kind of push-buttons . user interface: uh , one til nine . industrial designer: rubber . user interface: is that one or is that nine buttons ? industrial designer: you can have uh project manager: and i count them like this . one two three uh four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve and thirteen . user interface: yeah . project manager: because oh , this is oh , this is one , okay . twelve , okay , then it would be eighteen , because uh , i uh rated them as uh um as uh uh uh separate buttons . marketing: to n industrial designer: different , marketing: that 's total of four buttons . project manager: yes . industrial designer: yes . project manager: and plus these two , f uh plus the mute button , and it 's will be uh eighteen . marketing: i think that eighteen . one two three four five , si industrial designer: why is that so uh expensive . project manager: yeah , i do n't understand . y i do i do n't get the point , because it 's would be s relatively so expensive , just these m small buttons . user interface: is it cents , the the the fifty cents a button ? marketing: fifty cents for one single stupid button . user interface: no way . industrial designer: so , whe when you so then it project manager: well , okay , well well let 's make it just one . industrial designer: it 's eighty percent of the price of the of the amount of project manager: here , now it 's now it 's already s marketing: yeah , exactly . yeah . project manager: shall we just give our own interpretation to , user interface: project manager: because else we would really have a problem . it would be impossible to make it marketing: i ca n't user interface: it 's way marketing: i i i could n't understand it if it was fifty cents per uh uh per button . really . industrial designer: when you have the same amount of button , you have to put in wi in your carton . board . project manager: and and less buttons than this is n't possible . industrial designer: and then throw it marketing: yeah , yeah , industrial designer: project manager: this is the most simple user interface: no , no no . project manager: yeah , it is possible , but i 've never seen one before . industrial designer: but whe project manager: industrial designer: i 've seen one uh one remote control with only the pu yeah , only with uh page up , page down and volume , project manager: marketing: no , really . project manager: yeah , without the numbers . that 's possible . yeah , we could skip the numbers . user interface: yeah , uh industrial designer: but but marketing: yeah , but i d i would n't want to own that . really . user interface: that 's still four . industrial designer: uh , it 's it 's still for little children . they can handle that remote control , marketing: yeah . project manager: then uh , teletext would also be im impossible . industrial designer: but but it is n't fo yes , it 's for it 's li uh it 's just for a little user interface: yeah , that 's no option , that 's no option . project manager: okay , we 'll we 'll just okay . but then still , when we there 's no room for a docking station or something . tha w le let 's see th we have uh oh yeah , button supplements . we 'll give the buttons special colour . we 'll give them a special form . uh , i think we should mark the special form thing , because it this will be some special forms incorporated in these big buttons , i guess . user interface: a special colour , why a special colour ? project manager: because the buttons will be uh d will be matching colour between the buttons and the rubber surroundings . user interface: but wha what s what special ? project manager: i think that 's the what they mean by a special colour . user interface: okay , yeah . industrial designer: otherwise , it user interface: uh , yeah . industrial designer: otherwise it would be the marketing: i do n't think the special form is really true . project manager: i think all the special colour things have to be marked over here , because that 's what we were planning to do , making it industrial designer: special form also , it says . project manager: yeah , special material r also , marketing: is it ? project manager: because i has rubber . and the buttons have to be rubber . industrial designer: what is the normal material ? user interface: plastic . marketing: yeah , i dunno . industrial designer: sh yeah . user interface: plastic , i think . industrial designer: classic ? user interface: plastic . industrial designer: oh , plastic . marketing: plastic . project manager: 'kay , but the problem now is that the there 's no such thing as a docking station in this list , but we can all imagine that it would be impossible to make a docking station for thirty cents . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but we can uh sell the remote control and uh sell the docking station project manager: separately . user interface: se no no no . industrial designer: yes . and and but we do n't have to tell it , but what we can say of can um almost make it impossible to buy a remote control without the docking station . project manager: yeah , yeah . yeah , but i do like the idea , but we yeah . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: it uh but it then the docking station is n't relevant for this project anymore , but we can marketing: no . industrial designer: no , but you otherwise you ca n't retrieve it . project manager: but then you still have to use we have to find out what chip we u need . marketing: yeah , i really do n't get it . i mean if it 's a simple chip , then we suddenly got two euros and thirty cents . project manager: i think we can agree on this . i i think the special colour thing has to be uh marked . 'cause i think we uh marketing: yeah , yep . project manager: yeah , i think that 's what what what they uh mean industrial designer: but for two euros and thirty cents , we uh we do n't get a docking station . marketing: i think so , too . oh , i do n't know . project manager: but can we find out uh about uh this chips ? because when we do n't need a d a docking station , then probably we also have only we also need a simple chip . user interface: and then we can get a docking station . project manager: and maybe then we can do something extra . oh , n uh oh , still industrial designer: for project manager: oh , it 's gon na get more expensive with . two . user interface: project manager: then we have some money left . we can put then industrial designer: for two euros . project manager: we can put a scroll-wheel on it or something . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: uh why ? project manager: yeah , well who knows . or a little bit of tin titanium . marketing: i mean i i if you if it would cost two euros , that had a total a total thing , it would be nice too , i mean uh we 're not gon na add uh a trip to hawaii to it . user interface: but what what can we do project manager: yeah , or we can ki do the kinetic cells . that 's also maybe an idea . user interface: but uh what can we do with the simple chip and what 's difference with a regular chip and a advanced chip ? project manager: yeah that 's what then what he has to find out . maybe you can uh find it in your email right now , then we know then we exactly know what it will cost us . user interface: if if i project manager: maybe is that that 's nice to know . user interface: regular chip and because we do n't have uh special functions to use uh in advanced chip , for example . project manager: yeah , bu bu but when we yeah , but when we skip when we um when we do n't use the do we 're not gon na make the docking station , then we still yeah , we need something else maybe to make it kind of special , marketing: i like the hand dynamo part . project manager: because that was our our special feature . marketing: we can make a plain docking station for two euros . user interface: yeah . we 'll go back uh tomorrow . marketing: i mean project manager: yeah , okay , you can also do that , but maybe marketing: wi wi without recharge project manager: it still is a special remote control cons uh you know , wi its form is special and material . marketing: yeah , but but we can make a docking station for two euros uh if you do n't put the recharge function in it . i mean , it has a shape . project manager: yeah , but for two euros , then we have still maybe we have to use the advanced chip , marketing: of course it has a shape , but i i project manager: then two euros is n't even possible . marketing: why should that not be possible ? project manager: yeah , then because then we 'd thirty cents left . marketing: no , for for the uh for the docking station if you do if you choose the simple chip . project manager: yeah , but yeah , i do n't know , because maybe d uh yeah , we have to find out with the simple chip . user interface: that 's the question . if we do i do we need an advanced chip , or is it okay f project manager: yeah , and w and and we uh need f marketing: yes . industrial designer: it is n't in my information , so i do n't know it uh either . project manager: and what is this ? sample sensor sample speaker . industrial designer: it is n't in my information , i uh i i 've got a schematic view of the remote control , but nothing about uh advanced chips or project manager: you can look at it for s presentation . s technical functions ? user interface: no . industrial designer: uh i 've got here in uh user interface: no no , they were uh mine , yeah . project manager: oh . industrial designer: i will put a i will put a page on it . when my mouse works again . project manager: oh , oh oh . hey . oh . industrial designer: my mouse is uh marketing: dead . industrial designer: yes . marketing: reanimate it . user interface: died . industrial designer: oh . ah , i 've got it . i will put uh my email on the the network . marketing: what the hell are these ? industrial designer: it 's on it . marketing: oh , whatever . user interface: yeah , it 's open . marketing: project manager: mm . i do n't think here it 's in here already . user interface: it 's circuit board . it 's only just basics for for project manager: it 's nothing about s yeah . user interface: at the end circuit there is an infrared led . industrial designer: yes . marketing: this is n't helpful . project manager: no . but i in the presentation of yours , there was also something about different components . which one was it ? user interface: components design . project manager: functional requirements ? industrial designer: um marketing: no , that was my presentation . user interface: components design maybe . n on top . industrial designer: yes , that was mine . project manager: ah . ah yes , it was the second one . industrial designer: but that was my second project manager: yeah , it was your second marketing: it 's already open . project manager: your first presentation . marketing: it 's at the bottom . project manager: sorry ? user interface: working design . marketing: it 's uh at your task bar . user interface: yeah , but it 's the the other one . marketing: oh . industrial designer: mm project manager: uh , this is n this is not this n user interface: was it working design or components design ? marketing: sorry . project manager: that 's not the right one . i do n't oh . marketing: okay , sorry . project manager: no , this is the other one . or maybe something is uh maybe there 's something abo in in these user interface: chip set . industrial designer: but this is the same uh this is o only the possibilities . project manager: here . industrial designer: yeah . we can use a simple , a regular , or advanced chip . marketing: yeah , nice . i it does n't say anything . user interface: the display requires an advanced chip . project manager: you know that a push-button requires a simple chip , but a scroll-wheel , it it me requires industrial designer: ah , okay . project manager: okay , so we only need a simple chip . user interface: requires . industrial designer: with the light . user interface: little lights . yeah , but that that 's just the same as the the led . project manager: no no , that 's just a simple chip . a scroll-wheel marketing: that 's not needed . project manager: it s uh only states that a scroll-wheel requires a regular chip , and that a display requires an advanced chip . so , we do n't need any of them . marketing: a display uh is , of course , uh for showing letters . for showing text . industrial designer: lcd . user interface: yeah . marketing: i do n't think that uh just a l a little light user interface: no . i think uh the uh normal uh simple chip will be okay . marketing: yeah , i agree . project manager: and what 's the sample sensor slash sample speaker ? industrial designer: maybe you can say against the remote uh page uh f uh page up , page down . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , i guess so too . user interface: yeah , true . well , that 's not too what we want . marketing: next channel . no . well , we might want it , but user interface: project manager: okay . industrial designer: all in twelve euros . project manager: back to the costs . industrial designer: twelve euros and fifty cents . marketing: yeah . project manager: so we 're gon na use the simple chip . user interface: so , simple chip is okay . marketing: great . delete . industrial designer: and the lights . where uh are the lights ? marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , lights , yeah , there 's no marketing: well , there 're three , i guess . user interface: category . project manager: nah , there is some money left to be spent . user interface: can we do it wi within two two euro ? marketing: i think we can make a docking station . yeah . project manager: okay , but what we have to think about now is that is is it still a special remote control ? but i mean it is n't it has n't got any innovative technology , we are n't gon na apply any uh innovated innovative te technology anyway , i think . i do n't i do n't see any possibility to do so , because it would would n't fit our defi design philosophy . user interface: mm-hmm . but it 's original . project manager: but what w is there some extra marketing: no , that 's true . project manager: maybe i think maybe the kinetic thing is something . instead of the rechargeable the rechargeable thing was something to um know , so y so people would n't have to worry about their batteries anymore . marketing: m bu project manager: maybe we if we put the kinetic thing in it industrial designer: but but sometimes you put a project manager: yeah , you leave the p yeah , i know , but still i they will think about that . i mean if you u industrial designer: kinetics are n't uh nowadays only used in watches and that 's because you 're always walking . project manager: the uh it 's made for s people well , the they do n't if it was uh uh r useless technology , they would n't put it uh as a possibility . industrial designer: uh solar cells are useless . project manager: and i it it th th the the target marketing: or the hand dynamo dynamo project manager: the target uh group are people who zap regularly and throw with their remote control as a matter of speaking . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: because i think it when when there w was a remote control where it was useful to have a kinetic uh uh power source , then it would be this one . because it 's one it gets thrown around thrown around a lot and it gets used a lot hey that maybe that 's cool that 's a cool thing about it , you know . you do n't use batteries . marketing: yeah , but but if we ca project manager: i 've never seen it before in a remote control . user interface: but then we could make a docking station . marketing: i do n't know if five minutes . project manager: no , we we we ca n't make a docking station anyway . marketing: that 's not true . project manager: yeah , we can als or uh also m we we can make one user interface: wow , w why no li marketing: we can make a docking station for two thirty . project manager: we can still make user interface: look at now , we got two industrial designer: fo for a docking station . marketing: two thirty . user interface: two thirty left . ca ca n't we make a docking station of that ? marketing: we can make a docking station . sure . industrial designer: with a cable , with uh buttons on it , with retrieval uh device in it . marketing: sure . user interface: i do n't know . marketing: the power device is is i i is very cheap . project manager: marketing: that 's just a regular uh power cable and whatever . project manager: yeah , but be serious , then uh the docking station will be a fifth of the price of the remote control . industrial designer: wi with a button to user interface: well , we we uh industrial designer: wi with a button to retrieve it , so it will beep . marketing: so . industrial designer: uh , so it 's uh wireless technology . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , but we uh we do n't inc we have n't looked at the these costs of the speaker and other stuff . i do n't think it 's realistic for you to do so . marketing: well then it 's a useless project . industrial designer: look at the case , project manager: oh , because we industrial designer: the case the case of of uh of uh user interface: yeah , then we do n't have any innovation things . project manager: we well look at all the special stuff we have . colour a the colours are special , the form is special . it th this is whole concept . uh maybe it with the kinetic thing , i think we could do uh do a compromise uh with the kim kinetic thing . marketing: ca n't we uh ca n't we say fifteen euros ? project manager: uh , no . user interface: marketing: no , sta yeah i mean industrial designer: no , then we have to sell it for thirty euros . marketing: no . user interface: no , we only make less profit of it . industrial designer: it 's the marketing: you can sell for twenty seven and a half . then you make as much profit as you would with twelve and a half production costs . user interface: no . project manager: yeah , i don my suggestion is to just forget about the whole docking station thing and make it uh like a uh uh i i i i still fee i also feel this concept of making it kinetic , because of the you know , it g it gives something dynamic to the remote control . marketing: i do n't think industrial designer: maybe we can uh can do it both . maybe we can do it both uh in the in the in the remote . battery and kinetic . marketing: no . project manager: no , that would n't n no . marketing: thirteen twenty . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: yeah , and it is also not a good it 's not you have to really do it only kinetic , you do n't want it to think about batteries anymore . marketing: and i think only industrial designer: yes , but when it 's then when it marketing: yeah , but only kinetic , then you got ta project manager: no no . industrial designer: then you have to shake it uh and all when it 's when it 's empty . project manager: yeah , it 's great . marketing: you you got ta throw uh throw it through the room like twenty times an hour , really . industrial designer: project manager: no no no . no no , this is very sophisticated technology technology . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: when you use it your remote like once a day , or maybe even less i i it industrial designer: you asked for three d no , that 's n that 's not true . uh , a watch is uh kinetic because you walk all the time . marketing: no . project manager: it we can make it yeah no . becau be but a remote control gets why do they state that this technology can be used if it industrial designer: yes , solar cells are also stated . project manager: yeah , m but a w uh uh n uh a calculator also works on r on solar cells . industrial designer: why do n't we use solar cells then ? project manager: because i think the d whole dynamic part , do you know , appeals to me qui uh thinking of our design philosophy , you know , with the rubber parts and uh sturdiness of the thing , and y when you move it around a lot , then people find the idea funny that when i move my remote control around and industrial designer: that 's true . marketing: yeah , it 's funny for a week . i guess something like that , where you have to move it around very frequently , is demotivating . project manager: yeah , but you do n't have to . trust me . the idea of this technology is that you do n't think about it , it just happens . marketing: no , i i do n't move my uh my remote control very much , seriously . project manager: okay , then we d okay , well y we do n't have to do it , but what that would just have a lack of key features , you know . industrial designer: oui . project manager: you m have to put something on your box . you have to make people buy it and uh we can really can do the docking thing , uh it 's not yeah , uh we can do it , but it 's would be a easy way out . industrial designer: you can do it for fifty cents . user interface: marketing: well , we 've got more than fifty cents . project manager: okay , but we have to grou to agree upon something , industrial designer: the c the case the case alone is is is uh project manager: because uh we only have a minute left or so . industrial designer: the case alone for uh remote control is at least one euro . then we have one euro thirty for the whole docking station . project manager: no no , it 's not possible . okay , w b we can s we can leave it on be well then then th it 's this is then then our concept is ready . user interface: cheap remote control . project manager: yeah , we make some extra profit of it . marketing: yeah . no , we wo n't , but that 's um something else . user interface: it w it wo n't tell , but industrial designer: but now marketing: no , this not gon na sell . no . project manager: huh , any ideas ? marketing: of course not . user interface: no , uh , n no industrial designer: great . it 's great . user interface: yeah , we just have to go all what we did today again . you have to do it over . industrial designer: our remote control . marketing: we come back tomorrow , okay ? project manager: no no uh there 's still there 's still someth concept and something special left . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes . user interface: the industrial designer: seventy euros . project manager: i mean we 're gon na it 's gon na excel in in on in the the range in the field of design and and uh looks and feel . user interface: no , but no . project manager: that 's what it 's makes it special . yeah , and i would li i would have liked a kinetic part as well , to give it some just to give it some extra special feature , and uh i know it will work , but uh it 's it 's an they 're they 're not putting technologies on this , but if it if it was impossible to to make it happen . industrial designer: why not a hand dynamo then ? user interface: project manager: okay , well we leave it like this . then it 's c then we 're yeah . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: we ca n't do anything else . warning , finish meeting now . industrial designer: we 're done . project manager: okay , project e uh industrial designer: is this it ? project manager: well , we were gon na what look take a look at the last sheet . marketing: yeah , sure . industrial designer: okay . marketing: no , we ca n't . project manager: yeah , we have to yeah , it 's user interface: no . industrial designer: yes . marketing: yes , yes . celebration . i do n't see why , but industrial designer: where 's the champagne ? marketing: i think we got ta fill out another questionnaire , to be honest . user interface: yeah ? industrial designer: i do n't uh hear a bell . marketing: no , not yet . industrial designer: user interface: we can do it here then . marketing: alright , i 'll see you guys in a minute . industrial designer: bye . user interface: can we ca n't we do it here ? marketing: i do n't think so . i do n't know . i do n't i do n't think so . user interface: industrial designer: uh-huh . just fill that one in . user interface: yeah , we 're doing now . but it 's . oh , okay . project manager: uh , i do n't know . user interface: nice .

marketing recalled the market trend and collected images based on the device the team had designed . for each of marketing 's questions , the team would give one to seven points to each feature of the product and the lower the points the better the feature .

what did the team discuss during the product evaluation ? </s> project manager: okay , welcome to the detailed design meeting . again , i 'm gon na take minutes . oh , we 're gon na have a prototype presentation first . user interface: project manager: uh , who 's gon na give the prototype presentation ? you two guys ? okay . go ahead . industrial designer: yes . user interface: . marketing: . user interface: coffee . marketing: industrial designer: 'kay , we 've made a prototype . um , we 've got uh uh our aspects from the last meeting . uh , especially we looked at the form , material and the colour . um , we 've uh drawn here the p prototype . the logo is uh is uh is pretty uh obvious to see on the on the remote control , user interface: industrial designer: but it is necessary when you want to build your uh company f to a level higher . um , our interface elements , there are shown in the in the drawing . maybe you can uh point them uh the functions . user interface: uh , well the uh all the functions are discussed uh i think the most of the functions are uh uh obvious . uh , it 's a little bit . uh , power button . uh then the the the nine uh channels . project manager: user interface: uh the volume uh uh at the side , and the other side is the programmes . and then we had uh just uh two buttons , we place them in the middle , uh the menu , and for the teletext project manager: oh no , the the the mute button misses now . user interface: i thought that was th marketing: alright , i project manager: do y do you user interface: oh , the mute button . project manager: did we want to have a m mute button ? industrial designer: but uh that marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it 's uh here then , in the middle . user interface: yeah . project manager: huh . marketing: alright , and uh you got ta point out which is the volume um uh button and which is the programme button . industrial designer: yes , um user interface: well , yeah mo uh mo industrial designer: we 've disc user interface: yeah , well most of them are right-handed . industrial designer: most of the users marketing: yeah , but you you got ta make it clear on the on user interface: yeah well , i do n't have time in uh anymore on the industrial designer: yes , y there there will be a p a little a little p_ on that and a little uh yeah . marketing: yeah , and a and a triangle on that . user interface: oh yeah , just progr programme above , i think . marketing: yes . next to that i kinda miss a zero actually . user interface: project manager: wait , there 's was one thing i wanted to ask . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: project manager: uh , there are different ways for remote controls to uh do uh like marketing: project manager: uh d i call it teens and twenties . uh , y th th th the two numbers . industrial designer: yes . marketing: all n no , that 's um kinda dependent on the television . user interface: yeah , true , yeah . industrial designer: it 's a television . yes . project manager: yeah , but do we have do we need extra buttons , user interface: uh project manager: for example some uh some have to user interface: uh i think so . marketing: i think industrial designer: yes , yes , you have you have a lot of standard buttons that has to be uh on it , uh th with the one and a double uh uh marketing: yeah , i think you should add user interface: zero ? marketing: a cross , or whatever . yeah , line . project manager: yeah , but you do n't you do n't actually need them , user interface: may maybe here ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: becau b l a lot of remote controls work that y when y that you when you fir you push the one first , then you have a couple of seconds user interface: yeah . and then a second . marketing: no , that 's dependent on the television . project manager: no , i do n't think so . industrial designer: yes , you have televisions , then you have to , you know , you have to uh press marketing: i do know so . user interface: is it depending on television ? project manager: nah , i do n't think so really , marketing: yeah . project manager: because you have a i know some remote controls that do n't have these buttons , but you still can , know , obviously you can still select the twenty uh a number in the twenty or in the ten . industrial designer: yes , but but a lot uh marketing: yes , but uh uh no uh remote control nowadays are um they come with the television . or actually , the other way around . project manager: no , i think uh i really think it 's n marketing: but project manager: because you can when when you put a button on it with like one and uh then a dash , it 's the same thing as when you just push the one , marketing: yeah . project manager: because it i it first gives you the functionality of that that uh separate button you also had to uh apply . industrial designer: yes , but marketing: yeah , well but su if industrial designer: some televisions do n't accept uh that that project manager: yeah , because that 's i it 's for television . it 's exact the same thing . industrial designer: no , no , but s marketing: no no no . so some television respond differently . look , if uh i i project manager: no , listen listen . when you push the button , the remote control gives a signal . i in th in the first place it gives a signal which it would also send when you put a separate button on it . marketing: yes . yes , that 's true . project manager: the one with dash , that signal gi and when y whe when you do n't push another button on the remote control within five seconds , then the remote control gives a signal for channel one . user interface: yeah . true . marketing: no project manager: i think it works that way , really . marketing: no , it it it works uh if you have n't got uh a special button for it , uh if you push a one , then on your television there will appear a one and a a line , which is an empty space . project manager: yeah , but it 's exact the same that w would appear when you put a separate button push a separate button . industrial designer: yes , but some some old televisions uh you have to uh click on uh a special button , uh then you go to a a next level , you can push two buttons . project manager: yeah , but you do n't underst uh you do n't understand my point . marketing: yep . true . project manager: i think it 's exact the same thing when y industrial designer: you want yes , but some television do n't support it . project manager: no , but then they would a would also support that button , because it 's the same thing . user interface: but the ex project manager: listen , with that that 's that special but button you 're talking about , eh ? that 's just a signal to recei ju they send a t signal to the v tv tv that they have to put a one in on your screen and a dash , which you can pu so you can uh still put another number on it . when you do n't have that separate button , and you push y one , it 's exactly the same thing . do y you the remote control gives that same signal as it would give when you only had industrial designer: no , marketing: no , s some some televisions need the input first uh and and you c industrial designer: a remote can project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yes , project manager: but you give the input . industrial designer: so they need no , they need project manager: you push the one . that 's the same thing as the button with the one and it marketing: no , that 's not true . project manager: yes it it is . marketing: it 's simply not true . it 's simply not true . project manager: think about it . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: no , user interface: you uh you can wai when you push the one you can show on the telly a one and just a dash , and then wait uh two uh seconds or something industrial designer: but uh marketing: uh project manager: and it 's the same thing what happens and a g remote control gives another signal after five seconds that is just one . marketing: no , remote control does n't give signal after five seconds . remote control is a stupid thing . if you push a button , it sends it immediately to to the television . project manager: yeah , that 's true . yeah , but i m uh but it 's i i know for sure that some televisions that w th th the remote control supplied , only ha has the c these buttons with a one and a dash and a two and a dash , but when you use a bu a n remote control that does n't sport these buttons , it still works . industrial designer: yeah , it project manager: but okay , we we 'll impl marketing: no , definitely not . definitely not . user interface: we 'll discuss them in the usability lab . project manager: no , we 'll apply them then for now . user interface: uh eva evaluation . marketing: user interface: i do n't know uh i do n't know if if it 's it 's necessary . project manager: yeah , app just apply them next to the zero , the one and the two . user interface: yeah ? project manager: yeah , i think so . yeah , for now , if we do n't know for sure whether user interface: okay . industrial designer: and the button for the scart uh audio video uh external input . marketing: yes . user interface: ach . project manager: yeah but marketing: uh , you can access that uh via zero , and then minus , i guess . project manager: okay . what i said about uh the remote control sending another signal , that that might not be true , marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: but i still think i it it all tvs in some ways support it , i do n't know . i think it 's more c is m maybe we do n't uh we both do n't really understand how it i how it really works , industrial designer: no , no . project manager: but i think there 's more to in than wha than what you just said . industrial designer: uh , remote control sends one signal at one button uh press . project manager: i do think that uh m tvs support mur multiple kind of remote controls . m industrial designer: uh , some n some televisions when when you want to go further than uh ten project manager: th wo n't work wi with uh industrial designer: no , you have to you have to uh give the television uh two or more signals . project manager: to have that special button . industrial designer: when you uh press one button , you give one signal . and the older televisions need more signals to go a level higher . but project manager: okay , well we 'll see . marketing: yep . industrial designer: when you make the technology that that it will uh give more signals , it could work , but just a basic idea of of of the most uh most y most common uh and simple uh operations on the remote . marketing: okay . i kinda miss the docking station . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes . it 's here on the user interface: marketing: user interface: well it industrial designer: user interface: yeah , uh there 's nothing i think it 's pretty basic , industrial designer: we came uh user interface: the the there 's no fu industrial designer: yes . user interface: there 's one there 's one button , marketing: no nothing really trendy about it . user interface: that 's wha there 's there 's there 's one function and that 's n the one button when you want to find it . industrial designer: but maybe we can maybe we can make the docking station uh uh a bit standard for for uh the other products we sell , marketing: the button . industrial designer: because real real reaction sells more products than only remote controls . so maybe we can uh use the docking station , for example , uh m_p_ three players or or uh marketing: yep . industrial designer: uh hearing devices . marketing: i think that 's very difficult , because of different shapes of uh uh devices . industrial designer: yes , but when you put that same volt voltages on it , you can put uh when the when the when uh o the the the lowest part of it , when it 's o the same as the other products , you can put it all on the same uh marketing: yeah , of course . mm-hmm . well it it got it it has got to fit into the shape , of course . industrial designer: yes , but we can make marketing: the technology and the voltage can be the same . that 's uh that 's true . but uh i if you all make the m having a bottom like this , then they all fit . industrial designer: no , we can make uh make the most lowest part all the same . marketing: yeah , that 's true , but uh industrial designer: when when the the recharger has a has a bit what points out , we can place all on top of it . just have to be big enough for the biggest marketing: yes , but uh i i g should n't it fall then ? it is n't going to fall down ? that 's a bit uh industrial designer: no , when you make it large enough no it it will not . marketing: yeah , i think industrial designer: but then it 's a little bit marketing: no , but if if like this , i 'll i 'll point it out , if you got uh a a a base a base like this , industrial designer: but it 's just an idea . marketing: i wo n't draw it really . if you got a base which is uh as big as this industrial designer: but it 's flat it 's flat as as this , so we can p make all the products as flat as this . user interface: you can . but i i i it 's backwards . marketing: yeah sure , but if you got if you got a tiny player , it can industrial designer: yes , but when you make uh uh a bit of big user interface: but it 's it 's backwards . it 's leaning . it 's leaning backwards , i think , in the in the docking station . marketing: yeah . uh , wha what you could do if you uh from the bottom user interface: that 's text . marketing: oh , right , help . project manager: but user interface: marketing: uh , you could make like a hole in it , you know , of uh in in the industrial designer: yes , little holer littler uh , little products go deeper in it . marketing: yeah . that i that is possible , yep . project manager: well let 's ha let 's talk about the docking station later , because uh maybe we have we have to uh consider the docking station anyway , because we have some uh cost issues still to come . marketing: yeah , sure , you 're right . industrial designer: yes . and uh uh marketing: oh . project manager: but we have to look n i do n't know . industrial designer: the f the look and feel would be great on this uh remote control , because uh you always uh will uh pick up the remote control in the in the smallest uh area . marketing: i do n't like the colours . mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: then your uh left thumb of uh your right thumb is uh near the programme uh button , which is the most common used uh function , and all the other buttons are available for your uh thumb . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so it 's it 's it 's really good design . marketing: yeah . alright . project manager: yes . that 's it ? industrial designer: yes , uh on the side uh there will be a strip of rubber , and in the middle uh there is uh a hard uh a hard material , a bit hard plastic with a light uh behind it . marketing: the light . okay . and other lights ? project manager: i think added lights are gon na be a problem too . industrial designer: yes , we can make also n neon lights on it , or or the buttons that can make uh light on it . marketing: no , o on the on the front . yeah , okay . maybe the uh the logo . industrial designer: yes . user interface: lights ? industrial designer: but , it will also uh uh use batteries , marketing: yeah , why not ? industrial designer: and do we want to marketing: of course . project manager: okay . for now , uh this is uh is good enough . user interface: mm . project manager: yeah , what was uh on the marketing: okay . industrial designer: the all the aspects of the interface buttons were uh project manager: okay , but in the oh yeah , the colour , because we 're gon na use uh one colour for the the plastic enclosure and one colour for the rubber , is n't it ? then we 're gon na do the buttons in the i are we 're gon na have rubber buttons . industrial designer: yes . project manager: and they 're be a they 'll be in the same colour as the rubber on the side . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes . marketing: uh , in the same colour as the side . user interface: yeah . yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah , i think i think that 'll be good . project manager: okay . and i think we should use a a darker colour for the um plastic , and maybe some more m brighter and flashy stuff industrial designer: yes , maybe we can use on the on the lights on the side we can use uh uh multiple uh lights , marketing: yes . industrial designer: so it will uh project manager: yeah , we 'll talk about the lights later . 'cause i also don yeah , industrial designer: yes . marketing: yep . project manager: it 's depends on the costs and such . but uh , and we have to agree uh upon the exact colours , marketing: yeah . project manager: but may i dunno if that 's important , but we 'll talk about that later . okay , for now this is this is okay . marketing: we will . project manager: um , the next p y you gon na give a presentation too ? uh , i have to see the agenda . industrial designer: no . marketing: well , uh yeah , i i 'm gon na do something right there , yeah . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: detail design . marketing: we got ta do that on the right the most right-most screen , because the leftmost project manager: evaluation criteria . marketing: yep , that 's me . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: alright . i will be needing that image , so leave it please . um go away . right , we 're gon na evaluate that design according to a few points . um , we g the four of us are going to do that um together . project manager: marketing: i wan na have a colour over here , come on . right , the remote is not ugly , a bit weird sentence , but the positive things has to be on the left , so i said not ugly instead of ugly . user interface: marketing: uh , what would you say , we we got ta give points to uh to all of these to evaluate uh that design , and please forget the drawing skills of these guys . user interface: project manager: okay . industrial designer: marketing: the remote control is not ugly . how do you feel ? project manager: yeah , i think four maybe would be appropriate , because it 's yeah , maybe it really depends on taste . uh , i mean it 's kind of , our design . it 's marketing: yes . project manager: so if maybe a lot of people find it really ugly , you know , o other people find it really cool . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: background colour . project manager: i do n't know or uh i do n't know how you casting . yeah . industrial designer: i think i think the the fronts will give it a more uh uh uh less uglier uh side , because you can uh make it in your own marketing: how do you guys feel ? the different designs . industrial designer: yes , you can make it in your own uh marketing: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: more to your own personality or or house style . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah , but we d we did n't we 're we 're not planning to use fronts , i believe . marketing: no , not not fronts , but different designs . project manager: with a colour a co a colours . oh , okay . user interface: no , not fronts . different designs . different colours maybe , yeah . industrial designer: yes . marketing: and that 's still uh uh , yeah , is is uh is a little personal touch , i guess . project manager: okay , but oh , maybe we should do three or something that w you know , our marketing: what ? yeah , wha wha what would you uh guys uh think ? personally . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: or forty . user interface: we can make it a one . marketing: personally . yes , but what is it ? industrial designer: i think two or three . user interface: mm yeah . marketing: guido ? user interface: i agree . marketing: two or three . user interface: um , i uh i go for the positive . so i go for two . marketing: i was i was thinking about three , so i guess project manager: uh , i was thinking about four , so i think three is uh user interface: okay , three . marketing: three is uh a bit uh oh , what am i doing ? i 'll mark it . the remote control 's uh uh that n makes uh zapping easy . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah well , let that let 's make that a one . industrial designer: yes . user interface: two . one . one . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: yes . marketing: antek , you agree ? user interface: okay yeah , i 'll i 'll agree . industrial designer: yes . project manager: that 's one thing for sure . marketing: yeah . you 're not antek . user interface: i 'm the i 'm the usability , so marketing: i totally agree . the remote control the remote control 's relevant buttons are prominently visible . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , two or a one , i guess . user interface: the project manager: it 's something we really put work into . marketing: yeah , i yeah . industrial designer: it 's all about the buttons . marketing: i would say a one because uh every button is uh uh relevant . and our oh yeah , it 's a b yeah . yeah ? alright . that 's a one ? you agree ? project manager: yeah . marketing: the remote control has n't got too much redundant or unneeded buttons . i think we totally succeeded there . project manager: but user interface: well project manager: well maybe a two , because of the menu button or something . marketing: oh user interface: yeah , well menu yeah , maybe . marketing: yeah , that 's true . that 's true . project manager: and telete industrial designer: also , the the the buttons of the one , the two , the the digits , project manager: yeah , we do n't know if the uh they 're necessary . industrial designer: o they 're used uh uh marketing: the the yeah , m well , you d you 've got a point . project manager: i think a two . user interface: yeah , true . yeah , i agree . industrial designer: can yes , three , two . project manager: came a long way , but not we did n't not uh marketing: two or three ? user interface: mm two . industrial designer: but you ca n't make a remote control without them , marketing: two ? antek . user interface: because we got industrial designer: because marketing: nay that that that 's true , that 's true . they 're definitely needed . project manager: no , w w it can also always be more simplistic , but two is marketing: so we put it on a two ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yes . marketing: the remote control has got a really trendy look . user interface: industrial designer: yes . a one . project manager: yeah , uh a t i think a two . marketing: maarten . user interface: well . industrial designer: project manager: yeah yeah , y i it 's hard to say from this picture . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: we we 've tried to make it uh the the best trendy look uh ever . user interface: yeah . marketing: ever , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: guido . project manager: but i do think it 's more user interface: uh , i will i will make it a three , because uh yeah . i i th project manager: but i do think that it 's more trendy than beautiful . industrial designer: yes . marketing: yeah , uh i agree . i agree . project manager: so so i think maybe it has to score higher uh on this than on the user interface: yeah . true , yeah . marketing: i was planning to give it a two , uh where i give the not ugly uh project manager: a th a three . marketing: oh , yeah , that 's true . you agree on the two ? user interface: yeah . project manager: i i uh when you compare to the industrial designer: yes . marketing: great . remote control has n't got too much redundant or unneeded buttons . project manager: uh uh what 's the difference with user interface: marketing: uh , i copied that one . well , uh forget that . project manager: okay . marketing: um go away . remote control has got innovative technology implanted . user interface: no . we 're not project manager: no . industrial designer: no . user interface: well , maybe the the the on the side . industrial designer: no , not lcd , so . project manager: yeah , but we uh you mean the rubber stuff ? marketing: yeah , and the light . project manager: yeah , but we have t we have to talk about the lights uh . user interface: and the light maybe . industrial designer: but that that 's not innovative . user interface: but project manager: and i do n't u also it 's also really not innovative , industrial designer: lights lights are marketing: well , i g project manager: it 's more marketing: it 's not seven ? project manager: no , six . or seven maybe , yeah . user interface: well , six . no , six . project manager: or six . industrial designer: six . marketing: why uh why not a seven ? user interface: six . project manager: yeah , mine is seven . industrial designer: because we 've tried to make it a little bit innovative , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but it but it project manager: uh it 's uh depends on the on the maybe marketing: how ? industrial designer: with the lights it it 's it 's kind of future user interface: project manager: no , i think i think actually it 's a seven maybe , but there 's nothing innovative about it . marketing: yeah , you think the lights are innovative ? well , it 's n true . uh , i agree , industrial designer: but still you can retrieve it when it 's when it 's gone , with the with marketing: m but user interface: innovative in generally or just f original for marketing: i 'll yeah , you you did n't draw the docking station . industrial designer: yes . the docking station is a is a little bit innovative . project manager: n no no , marketing: yeah , it it 's i think i think with its project manager: t . user interface: a docking station is innova project manager: yeah , i mean the dock station , but but uh , i think the the docking station , it 's gon na be a kind of a problem . user interface: industrial designer: it 's a part of the remote . marketing: i think more m user interface: okay . industrial designer: and with the speaker on the there 's also a speaker . project manager: but marketing: uh that that 's n project manager: well , let 's leave it open for uh for us later to see what , because we have to reevaluate anyway . well i i yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: no ? marketing: no uh , well , the agenda says evaluate now , so i think we project manager: okay , for now it 's a six or a seven uh , sev marketing: it 's it 's a six . project manager: six maybe , user interface: six . project manager: because industrial designer: but the retrieval or the marketing: that m f project manager: yeah , but i do n't i do n't know if it 's very inno yeah . marketing: yeah , for the retrieval function . yeah . i think that 's very innovative for a remote control . project manager: yeah , v industrial designer: yes , how would you innovate a remote control more ? project manager: yeah , more through uh like function tv functionalities and industrial designer: to put it on your head . project manager: no no , you know what i mean . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: you have must be innovative technology for remote controls , but more in how you control stuff , not in how you find your marketing: yeah sure , but project manager: yeah . yeah , it 's marketing: but i d i definitely do n't think it 's a five , project manager: that 's that 's think about it la later on marketing: but project manager: and uh marketing: remote control is easy to use . project manager: yeah , as a a one or a two ma uh at least . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah , a two . industrial designer: yes . marketing: i think a two . project manager: yeah , it 's good . marketing: yeah ? user interface: more two . marketing: come on . the remote control has n't got uh . project manager: no , i would have seen that one before . oh , you skipped one uh industrial designer: marketing: i 've just filled uh project manager: uh , here . marketing: go away . industrial designer: you like the buttons . marketing: i found twelve questions so much , but it still is ten . project manager: remote control will be bought by marketing: it will be bought by people under the age of forty . project manager: yeah . definitely . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yes . project manager: well industrial designer: in in and comparing with uh people of th of the age above ? marketing: no no no . no , just if they if they buy it . project manager: uh , just in general . yeah , a two . industrial designer: we do n't know . but project manager: yeah , but i think i think two . marketing: yeah , what do you think ? user interface: yeah , i think two , yeah . i agree . two . marketing: antek ? industrial designer: yes , two , but only in c when you compare it with with elderly . project manager: uh , that is not the question . it 's just w it will be bought by people under forty . marketing: no , that 's no comparison . project manager: yeah , you can yeah , you can be very picky about it . marketing: and i do n't mean two people . industrial designer: this is just guessing . project manager: ah yeah , just make it we 'll make it a two . industrial designer: make it a two . marketing: w w industrial designer: when it succeeds , uh it can get a two , mu marketing: right , the rem the remote control has recognisable corporate image , colour , logo or slogan . project manager: oh no . yeah . yeah , you have make an user interface: we do n't have the slogan though . project manager: slogan is quite obvious . marketing: oh , the slogan . project manager: oh the oh sorry , no , not not the slogan . marketing: can we see the slogan ? project manager: yeah , you can put that on the side if if we would like to . user interface: the logo . industrial designer: a logo . user interface: underneath it or something . industrial designer: yes , uh encrypted uh with project manager: yeah , and i will i th still think it 's gon na be a two or a three . marketing: are we gon na do that ? user interface: a three . three . project manager: maybe a three this time . user interface: yeah , a three . industrial designer: yes . marketing: three ? i agree . because of the slogan project manager: and uh marketing: remote control 's got a basic design intended uh for novice users . project manager: uh , it 's a one or a two . user interface: yeah , two . industrial designer: yes . project manager: yeah , make it a two . user interface: two . marketing: two ? two . alright . we got ta add up the scores now to see our total average . four , five , seven , nine . forget that . fifteen , seventeen , twenty one , twenty four , twenty six . twenty six . it 's a two point six . project manager: it 's not that bad . marketing: alright , we project manager: yeah , and that 's mostly the inno marketing: yeah . project manager: when we uh score higher on innovative technology , we would score two , marketing: yeah . true . project manager: which is uh quite a great score . okay . uh , this is was uh the evaluation ? marketing: this was my evaluation . so project manager: because i i still think that the most important part of this meeting still has marketing: we did a pretty nice job until now . project manager: yeah . marketing: um , is this your industrial designer: is there something after this uh meeting ? or marketing: whatever . well , i think we got ta fill out another questionnaire . user interface: no . okay , yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: still opened or uh yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , finance . because um user interface: shoot . project manager: i received uh a spreadsheet . marketing: a five . a five . project manager: yeah , but i uh actually do n't need this presentation , i guess . oh . marketing: does n't matter . project manager: i 'm gon na open the spreadsheet and we 're gon na work this out together , because i did n't really fin uh i have a . user interface: project manager: did n't really finish it . well , we uh we 'll see . we 'll stumble upon some problems . marketing: we probably will . project manager: i probably have already opened it here . try it again . first of all , the mm all the docking station and costs and such are not included in this list . but let 's let 's st start with beginning . we include one battery . i i uh i 'll explain its uh , the the components are listed over here . uh , price is given . we um yeah , marketing: the amount , yeah . project manager: we we uh indicate the amount of components of the specif specific component , how much we need of them . and then uh , we 'll uh calcula do n't watch the number yet . i do n't know if it 's filled in properly . okay , we need one battery . one battery . i think one battery is enough . industrial designer: yes . project manager: we do n't need kinetic , solar cells , hand dynamo . a s okay , this this is a p first problem . uh , i think we should know how many simple chips , regular chips industrial designer: uh it 's it 's one one chip , but but you have to choose one from it . project manager: okay . but industrial designer: the simple chip is e enough i i think , but with the lights with the lights and the retrieval , it can be uh marketing: i do n't know project manager: where did we find this information ? was it marketing: i have n't got an idea on on which we need to use , really . project manager: i think it was uh your job in the first uh meet uh , f your first presentation to make this clear , but then you had some t time problems . user interface: no . industrial designer: no , uh i yes , my my my uh marketing: yeah . industrial designer: the the email i got said uh simple chip , but when we put in the speaker and the retriever uh device , it will uh cost a a bit more , like i think the advanced chip maybe . marketing: yeah . and how do you know ? i mean , you got that email . did it point out what to use them for ? industrial designer: bec no , the they did n't know about a retriever or a speaker uh in it . project manager: maybe you can uh look it up right now . okay , but okay . when we do n't when we leave the uh retriever and such aside , what industrial designer: then it 's a simple chip . project manager: then it would be a simple chip . and with the retriever , it would be an advanced chip . industrial designer: yes , i i i s i marketing: alright , well , point out the advanced chip for now , i guess . project manager: okay . industrial designer: that will be enough for future uh recommendations . project manager: yeah , but it will it will it will be cause a lot of problems . the sample sensor sample speaker . what is it m is that the speaker we were t i do n't know what it is . industrial designer: i do n't know it uh either . marketing: i do n't know . project manager: okay , we went for the double-curved case industrial designer: yes . project manager: made out of plastic and rubber . and with a special colour . i guess that 's what we were user interface: well , special colour . . project manager: yeah , i do n't know about the special colour , but i think w uh industrial designer: otherwise , you get uh a standard uh plastic colour . user interface: i do n't marketing: i do n't know if it 's very special . project manager: yeah , i think we uh we have special colours . user interface: mm okay . industrial designer: standard rubber . marketing: alright , that 's okay . project manager: okay , then the push-button , i was just counting them . industrial designer: st project manager: uh , i think you have to indicate the amount of push-buttons we want to use , is n't it ? user interface: whoa , it 's a little project manager: well that 's bit of a problem , industrial designer: yes . project manager: because i re but i really do n't understand that , because i can imagine a remote control with far more push-buttons , and it would n't be possible according to this uh sheet . user interface: that 's huge . no . we have the simplest buttons . marketing: no . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: no , it 's only uh when you use push-buttons , it will cost that much . marketing: i do n't think so , because it says amount . industrial designer: if you use a scroll-wheel project manager: ah . yeah , it would n't marketing: the the the yellow row is the amount of project manager: fill in the number of components you plan to use in the and the total cost i do n't know . i industrial designer: maybe it 's the kind of push-buttons . you can have f four kind of push-buttons . user interface: uh , one til nine . industrial designer: rubber . user interface: is that one or is that nine buttons ? industrial designer: you can have uh project manager: and i count them like this . one two three uh four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve and thirteen . user interface: yeah . project manager: because oh , this is oh , this is one , okay . twelve , okay , then it would be eighteen , because uh , i uh rated them as uh um as uh uh uh separate buttons . marketing: to n industrial designer: different , marketing: that 's total of four buttons . project manager: yes . industrial designer: yes . project manager: and plus these two , f uh plus the mute button , and it 's will be uh eighteen . marketing: i think that eighteen . one two three four five , si industrial designer: why is that so uh expensive . project manager: yeah , i do n't understand . y i do i do n't get the point , because it 's would be s relatively so expensive , just these m small buttons . user interface: is it cents , the the the fifty cents a button ? marketing: fifty cents for one single stupid button . user interface: no way . industrial designer: so , whe when you so then it project manager: well , okay , well well let 's make it just one . industrial designer: it 's eighty percent of the price of the of the amount of project manager: here , now it 's now it 's already s marketing: yeah , exactly . yeah . project manager: shall we just give our own interpretation to , user interface: project manager: because else we would really have a problem . it would be impossible to make it marketing: i ca n't user interface: it 's way marketing: i i i could n't understand it if it was fifty cents per uh uh per button . really . industrial designer: when you have the same amount of button , you have to put in wi in your carton . board . project manager: and and less buttons than this is n't possible . industrial designer: and then throw it marketing: yeah , yeah , industrial designer: project manager: this is the most simple user interface: no , no no . project manager: yeah , it is possible , but i 've never seen one before . industrial designer: but whe project manager: industrial designer: i 've seen one uh one remote control with only the pu yeah , only with uh page up , page down and volume , project manager: marketing: no , really . project manager: yeah , without the numbers . that 's possible . yeah , we could skip the numbers . user interface: yeah , uh industrial designer: but but marketing: yeah , but i d i would n't want to own that . really . user interface: that 's still four . industrial designer: uh , it 's it 's still for little children . they can handle that remote control , marketing: yeah . project manager: then uh , teletext would also be im impossible . industrial designer: but but it is n't fo yes , it 's for it 's li uh it 's just for a little user interface: yeah , that 's no option , that 's no option . project manager: okay , we 'll we 'll just okay . but then still , when we there 's no room for a docking station or something . tha w le let 's see th we have uh oh yeah , button supplements . we 'll give the buttons special colour . we 'll give them a special form . uh , i think we should mark the special form thing , because it this will be some special forms incorporated in these big buttons , i guess . user interface: a special colour , why a special colour ? project manager: because the buttons will be uh d will be matching colour between the buttons and the rubber surroundings . user interface: but wha what s what special ? project manager: i think that 's the what they mean by a special colour . user interface: okay , yeah . industrial designer: otherwise , it user interface: uh , yeah . industrial designer: otherwise it would be the marketing: i do n't think the special form is really true . project manager: i think all the special colour things have to be marked over here , because that 's what we were planning to do , making it industrial designer: special form also , it says . project manager: yeah , special material r also , marketing: is it ? project manager: because i has rubber . and the buttons have to be rubber . industrial designer: what is the normal material ? user interface: plastic . marketing: yeah , i dunno . industrial designer: sh yeah . user interface: plastic , i think . industrial designer: classic ? user interface: plastic . industrial designer: oh , plastic . marketing: plastic . project manager: 'kay , but the problem now is that the there 's no such thing as a docking station in this list , but we can all imagine that it would be impossible to make a docking station for thirty cents . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but we can uh sell the remote control and uh sell the docking station project manager: separately . user interface: se no no no . industrial designer: yes . and and but we do n't have to tell it , but what we can say of can um almost make it impossible to buy a remote control without the docking station . project manager: yeah , yeah . yeah , but i do like the idea , but we yeah . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: it uh but it then the docking station is n't relevant for this project anymore , but we can marketing: no . industrial designer: no , but you otherwise you ca n't retrieve it . project manager: but then you still have to use we have to find out what chip we u need . marketing: yeah , i really do n't get it . i mean if it 's a simple chip , then we suddenly got two euros and thirty cents . project manager: i think we can agree on this . i i think the special colour thing has to be uh marked . 'cause i think we uh marketing: yeah , yep . project manager: yeah , i think that 's what what what they uh mean industrial designer: but for two euros and thirty cents , we uh we do n't get a docking station . marketing: i think so , too . oh , i do n't know . project manager: but can we find out uh about uh this chips ? because when we do n't need a d a docking station , then probably we also have only we also need a simple chip . user interface: and then we can get a docking station . project manager: and maybe then we can do something extra . oh , n uh oh , still industrial designer: for project manager: oh , it 's gon na get more expensive with . two . user interface: project manager: then we have some money left . we can put then industrial designer: for two euros . project manager: we can put a scroll-wheel on it or something . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: uh why ? project manager: yeah , well who knows . or a little bit of tin titanium . marketing: i mean i i if you if it would cost two euros , that had a total a total thing , it would be nice too , i mean uh we 're not gon na add uh a trip to hawaii to it . user interface: but what what can we do project manager: yeah , or we can ki do the kinetic cells . that 's also maybe an idea . user interface: but uh what can we do with the simple chip and what 's difference with a regular chip and a advanced chip ? project manager: yeah that 's what then what he has to find out . maybe you can uh find it in your email right now , then we know then we exactly know what it will cost us . user interface: if if i project manager: maybe is that that 's nice to know . user interface: regular chip and because we do n't have uh special functions to use uh in advanced chip , for example . project manager: yeah , bu bu but when we yeah , but when we skip when we um when we do n't use the do we 're not gon na make the docking station , then we still yeah , we need something else maybe to make it kind of special , marketing: i like the hand dynamo part . project manager: because that was our our special feature . marketing: we can make a plain docking station for two euros . user interface: yeah . we 'll go back uh tomorrow . marketing: i mean project manager: yeah , okay , you can also do that , but maybe marketing: wi wi without recharge project manager: it still is a special remote control cons uh you know , wi its form is special and material . marketing: yeah , but but we can make a docking station for two euros uh if you do n't put the recharge function in it . i mean , it has a shape . project manager: yeah , but for two euros , then we have still maybe we have to use the advanced chip , marketing: of course it has a shape , but i i project manager: then two euros is n't even possible . marketing: why should that not be possible ? project manager: yeah , then because then we 'd thirty cents left . marketing: no , for for the uh for the docking station if you do if you choose the simple chip . project manager: yeah , but yeah , i do n't know , because maybe d uh yeah , we have to find out with the simple chip . user interface: that 's the question . if we do i do we need an advanced chip , or is it okay f project manager: yeah , and w and and we uh need f marketing: yes . industrial designer: it is n't in my information , so i do n't know it uh either . project manager: and what is this ? sample sensor sample speaker . industrial designer: it is n't in my information , i uh i i 've got a schematic view of the remote control , but nothing about uh advanced chips or project manager: you can look at it for s presentation . s technical functions ? user interface: no . industrial designer: uh i 've got here in uh user interface: no no , they were uh mine , yeah . project manager: oh . industrial designer: i will put a i will put a page on it . when my mouse works again . project manager: oh , oh oh . hey . oh . industrial designer: my mouse is uh marketing: dead . industrial designer: yes . marketing: reanimate it . user interface: died . industrial designer: oh . ah , i 've got it . i will put uh my email on the the network . marketing: what the hell are these ? industrial designer: it 's on it . marketing: oh , whatever . user interface: yeah , it 's open . marketing: project manager: mm . i do n't think here it 's in here already . user interface: it 's circuit board . it 's only just basics for for project manager: it 's nothing about s yeah . user interface: at the end circuit there is an infrared led . industrial designer: yes . marketing: this is n't helpful . project manager: no . but i in the presentation of yours , there was also something about different components . which one was it ? user interface: components design . project manager: functional requirements ? industrial designer: um marketing: no , that was my presentation . user interface: components design maybe . n on top . industrial designer: yes , that was mine . project manager: ah . ah yes , it was the second one . industrial designer: but that was my second project manager: yeah , it was your second marketing: it 's already open . project manager: your first presentation . marketing: it 's at the bottom . project manager: sorry ? user interface: working design . marketing: it 's uh at your task bar . user interface: yeah , but it 's the the other one . marketing: oh . industrial designer: mm project manager: uh , this is n this is not this n user interface: was it working design or components design ? marketing: sorry . project manager: that 's not the right one . i do n't oh . marketing: okay , sorry . project manager: no , this is the other one . or maybe something is uh maybe there 's something abo in in these user interface: chip set . industrial designer: but this is the same uh this is o only the possibilities . project manager: here . industrial designer: yeah . we can use a simple , a regular , or advanced chip . marketing: yeah , nice . i it does n't say anything . user interface: the display requires an advanced chip . project manager: you know that a push-button requires a simple chip , but a scroll-wheel , it it me requires industrial designer: ah , okay . project manager: okay , so we only need a simple chip . user interface: requires . industrial designer: with the light . user interface: little lights . yeah , but that that 's just the same as the the led . project manager: no no , that 's just a simple chip . a scroll-wheel marketing: that 's not needed . project manager: it s uh only states that a scroll-wheel requires a regular chip , and that a display requires an advanced chip . so , we do n't need any of them . marketing: a display uh is , of course , uh for showing letters . for showing text . industrial designer: lcd . user interface: yeah . marketing: i do n't think that uh just a l a little light user interface: no . i think uh the uh normal uh simple chip will be okay . marketing: yeah , i agree . project manager: and what 's the sample sensor slash sample speaker ? industrial designer: maybe you can say against the remote uh page uh f uh page up , page down . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , i guess so too . user interface: yeah , true . well , that 's not too what we want . marketing: next channel . no . well , we might want it , but user interface: project manager: okay . industrial designer: all in twelve euros . project manager: back to the costs . industrial designer: twelve euros and fifty cents . marketing: yeah . project manager: so we 're gon na use the simple chip . user interface: so , simple chip is okay . marketing: great . delete . industrial designer: and the lights . where uh are the lights ? marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , lights , yeah , there 's no marketing: well , there 're three , i guess . user interface: category . project manager: nah , there is some money left to be spent . user interface: can we do it wi within two two euro ? marketing: i think we can make a docking station . yeah . project manager: okay , but what we have to think about now is that is is it still a special remote control ? but i mean it is n't it has n't got any innovative technology , we are n't gon na apply any uh innovated innovative te technology anyway , i think . i do n't i do n't see any possibility to do so , because it would would n't fit our defi design philosophy . user interface: mm-hmm . but it 's original . project manager: but what w is there some extra marketing: no , that 's true . project manager: maybe i think maybe the kinetic thing is something . instead of the rechargeable the rechargeable thing was something to um know , so y so people would n't have to worry about their batteries anymore . marketing: m bu project manager: maybe we if we put the kinetic thing in it industrial designer: but but sometimes you put a project manager: yeah , you leave the p yeah , i know , but still i they will think about that . i mean if you u industrial designer: kinetics are n't uh nowadays only used in watches and that 's because you 're always walking . project manager: the uh it 's made for s people well , the they do n't if it was uh uh r useless technology , they would n't put it uh as a possibility . industrial designer: uh solar cells are useless . project manager: and i it it th th the the target marketing: or the hand dynamo dynamo project manager: the target uh group are people who zap regularly and throw with their remote control as a matter of speaking . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: because i think it when when there w was a remote control where it was useful to have a kinetic uh uh power source , then it would be this one . because it 's one it gets thrown around thrown around a lot and it gets used a lot hey that maybe that 's cool that 's a cool thing about it , you know . you do n't use batteries . marketing: yeah , but but if we ca project manager: i 've never seen it before in a remote control . user interface: but then we could make a docking station . marketing: i do n't know if five minutes . project manager: no , we we we ca n't make a docking station anyway . marketing: that 's not true . project manager: yeah , we can als or uh also m we we can make one user interface: wow , w why no li marketing: we can make a docking station for two thirty . project manager: we can still make user interface: look at now , we got two industrial designer: fo for a docking station . marketing: two thirty . user interface: two thirty left . ca ca n't we make a docking station of that ? marketing: we can make a docking station . sure . industrial designer: with a cable , with uh buttons on it , with retrieval uh device in it . marketing: sure . user interface: i do n't know . marketing: the power device is is i i is very cheap . project manager: marketing: that 's just a regular uh power cable and whatever . project manager: yeah , but be serious , then uh the docking station will be a fifth of the price of the remote control . industrial designer: wi with a button to user interface: well , we we uh industrial designer: wi with a button to retrieve it , so it will beep . marketing: so . industrial designer: uh , so it 's uh wireless technology . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , but we uh we do n't inc we have n't looked at the these costs of the speaker and other stuff . i do n't think it 's realistic for you to do so . marketing: well then it 's a useless project . industrial designer: look at the case , project manager: oh , because we industrial designer: the case the case of of uh of uh user interface: yeah , then we do n't have any innovation things . project manager: we well look at all the special stuff we have . colour a the colours are special , the form is special . it th this is whole concept . uh maybe it with the kinetic thing , i think we could do uh do a compromise uh with the kim kinetic thing . marketing: ca n't we uh ca n't we say fifteen euros ? project manager: uh , no . user interface: marketing: no , sta yeah i mean industrial designer: no , then we have to sell it for thirty euros . marketing: no . user interface: no , we only make less profit of it . industrial designer: it 's the marketing: you can sell for twenty seven and a half . then you make as much profit as you would with twelve and a half production costs . user interface: no . project manager: yeah , i don my suggestion is to just forget about the whole docking station thing and make it uh like a uh uh i i i i still fee i also feel this concept of making it kinetic , because of the you know , it g it gives something dynamic to the remote control . marketing: i do n't think industrial designer: maybe we can uh can do it both . maybe we can do it both uh in the in the in the remote . battery and kinetic . marketing: no . project manager: no , that would n't n no . marketing: thirteen twenty . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: yeah , and it is also not a good it 's not you have to really do it only kinetic , you do n't want it to think about batteries anymore . marketing: and i think only industrial designer: yes , but when it 's then when it marketing: yeah , but only kinetic , then you got ta project manager: no no . industrial designer: then you have to shake it uh and all when it 's when it 's empty . project manager: yeah , it 's great . marketing: you you got ta throw uh throw it through the room like twenty times an hour , really . industrial designer: project manager: no no no . no no , this is very sophisticated technology technology . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: when you use it your remote like once a day , or maybe even less i i it industrial designer: you asked for three d no , that 's n that 's not true . uh , a watch is uh kinetic because you walk all the time . marketing: no . project manager: it we can make it yeah no . becau be but a remote control gets why do they state that this technology can be used if it industrial designer: yes , solar cells are also stated . project manager: yeah , m but a w uh uh n uh a calculator also works on r on solar cells . industrial designer: why do n't we use solar cells then ? project manager: because i think the d whole dynamic part , do you know , appeals to me qui uh thinking of our design philosophy , you know , with the rubber parts and uh sturdiness of the thing , and y when you move it around a lot , then people find the idea funny that when i move my remote control around and industrial designer: that 's true . marketing: yeah , it 's funny for a week . i guess something like that , where you have to move it around very frequently , is demotivating . project manager: yeah , but you do n't have to . trust me . the idea of this technology is that you do n't think about it , it just happens . marketing: no , i i do n't move my uh my remote control very much , seriously . project manager: okay , then we d okay , well y we do n't have to do it , but what that would just have a lack of key features , you know . industrial designer: oui . project manager: you m have to put something on your box . you have to make people buy it and uh we can really can do the docking thing , uh it 's not yeah , uh we can do it , but it 's would be a easy way out . industrial designer: you can do it for fifty cents . user interface: marketing: well , we 've got more than fifty cents . project manager: okay , but we have to grou to agree upon something , industrial designer: the c the case the case alone is is is uh project manager: because uh we only have a minute left or so . industrial designer: the case alone for uh remote control is at least one euro . then we have one euro thirty for the whole docking station . project manager: no no , it 's not possible . okay , w b we can s we can leave it on be well then then th it 's this is then then our concept is ready . user interface: cheap remote control . project manager: yeah , we make some extra profit of it . marketing: yeah . no , we wo n't , but that 's um something else . user interface: it w it wo n't tell , but industrial designer: but now marketing: no , this not gon na sell . no . project manager: huh , any ideas ? marketing: of course not . user interface: no , uh , n no industrial designer: great . it 's great . user interface: yeah , we just have to go all what we did today again . you have to do it over . industrial designer: our remote control . marketing: we come back tomorrow , okay ? project manager: no no uh there 's still there 's still someth concept and something special left . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes . user interface: the industrial designer: seventy euros . project manager: i mean we 're gon na it 's gon na excel in in on in the the range in the field of design and and uh looks and feel . user interface: no , but no . project manager: that 's what it 's makes it special . yeah , and i would li i would have liked a kinetic part as well , to give it some just to give it some extra special feature , and uh i know it will work , but uh it 's it 's an they 're they 're not putting technologies on this , but if it if it was impossible to to make it happen . industrial designer: why not a hand dynamo then ? user interface: project manager: okay , well we leave it like this . then it 's c then we 're yeah . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: we ca n't do anything else . warning , finish meeting now . industrial designer: we 're done . project manager: okay , project e uh industrial designer: is this it ? project manager: well , we were gon na what look take a look at the last sheet . marketing: yeah , sure . industrial designer: okay . marketing: no , we ca n't . project manager: yeah , we have to yeah , it 's user interface: no . industrial designer: yes . marketing: yes , yes . celebration . i do n't see why , but industrial designer: where 's the champagne ? marketing: i think we got ta fill out another questionnaire , to be honest . user interface: yeah ? industrial designer: i do n't uh hear a bell . marketing: no , not yet . industrial designer: user interface: we can do it here then . marketing: alright , i 'll see you guys in a minute . industrial designer: bye . user interface: can we ca n't we do it here ? marketing: i do n't think so . i do n't know . i do n't i do n't think so . user interface: industrial designer: uh-huh . just fill that one in . user interface: yeah , we 're doing now . but it 's . oh , okay . project manager: uh , i do n't know . user interface: nice .

the team agreed that the prototype had a moderate appearance and it really depended on the individual taste of each customer . some might find the device really fancy . however , the function that enabled the user to design for its own front look stood out since this could add value to users ' favour towards personalities . the team also came to an agreement that the remote control 's relevant buttons were prominently visible and relevant to each other , making the device easy to use . there was also a speaker incorporated into the device , solving the problem that sometimes it was out of sight . meanwhile , the innovation of this device which was without a lcd display or any other technology required functions was not that satisfactory .

what did the team discuss about the product cost ? </s> project manager: okay , welcome to the detailed design meeting . again , i 'm gon na take minutes . oh , we 're gon na have a prototype presentation first . user interface: project manager: uh , who 's gon na give the prototype presentation ? you two guys ? okay . go ahead . industrial designer: yes . user interface: . marketing: . user interface: coffee . marketing: industrial designer: 'kay , we 've made a prototype . um , we 've got uh uh our aspects from the last meeting . uh , especially we looked at the form , material and the colour . um , we 've uh drawn here the p prototype . the logo is uh is uh is pretty uh obvious to see on the on the remote control , user interface: industrial designer: but it is necessary when you want to build your uh company f to a level higher . um , our interface elements , there are shown in the in the drawing . maybe you can uh point them uh the functions . user interface: uh , well the uh all the functions are discussed uh i think the most of the functions are uh uh obvious . uh , it 's a little bit . uh , power button . uh then the the the nine uh channels . project manager: user interface: uh the volume uh uh at the side , and the other side is the programmes . and then we had uh just uh two buttons , we place them in the middle , uh the menu , and for the teletext project manager: oh no , the the the mute button misses now . user interface: i thought that was th marketing: alright , i project manager: do y do you user interface: oh , the mute button . project manager: did we want to have a m mute button ? industrial designer: but uh that marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it 's uh here then , in the middle . user interface: yeah . project manager: huh . marketing: alright , and uh you got ta point out which is the volume um uh button and which is the programme button . industrial designer: yes , um user interface: well , yeah mo uh mo industrial designer: we 've disc user interface: yeah , well most of them are right-handed . industrial designer: most of the users marketing: yeah , but you you got ta make it clear on the on user interface: yeah well , i do n't have time in uh anymore on the industrial designer: yes , y there there will be a p a little a little p_ on that and a little uh yeah . marketing: yeah , and a and a triangle on that . user interface: oh yeah , just progr programme above , i think . marketing: yes . next to that i kinda miss a zero actually . user interface: project manager: wait , there 's was one thing i wanted to ask . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: project manager: uh , there are different ways for remote controls to uh do uh like marketing: project manager: uh d i call it teens and twenties . uh , y th th th the two numbers . industrial designer: yes . marketing: all n no , that 's um kinda dependent on the television . user interface: yeah , true , yeah . industrial designer: it 's a television . yes . project manager: yeah , but do we have do we need extra buttons , user interface: uh project manager: for example some uh some have to user interface: uh i think so . marketing: i think industrial designer: yes , yes , you have you have a lot of standard buttons that has to be uh on it , uh th with the one and a double uh uh marketing: yeah , i think you should add user interface: zero ? marketing: a cross , or whatever . yeah , line . project manager: yeah , but you do n't you do n't actually need them , user interface: may maybe here ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: becau b l a lot of remote controls work that y when y that you when you fir you push the one first , then you have a couple of seconds user interface: yeah . and then a second . marketing: no , that 's dependent on the television . project manager: no , i do n't think so . industrial designer: yes , you have televisions , then you have to , you know , you have to uh press marketing: i do know so . user interface: is it depending on television ? project manager: nah , i do n't think so really , marketing: yeah . project manager: because you have a i know some remote controls that do n't have these buttons , but you still can , know , obviously you can still select the twenty uh a number in the twenty or in the ten . industrial designer: yes , but but a lot uh marketing: yes , but uh uh no uh remote control nowadays are um they come with the television . or actually , the other way around . project manager: no , i think uh i really think it 's n marketing: but project manager: because you can when when you put a button on it with like one and uh then a dash , it 's the same thing as when you just push the one , marketing: yeah . project manager: because it i it first gives you the functionality of that that uh separate button you also had to uh apply . industrial designer: yes , but marketing: yeah , well but su if industrial designer: some televisions do n't accept uh that that project manager: yeah , because that 's i it 's for television . it 's exact the same thing . industrial designer: no , no , but s marketing: no no no . so some television respond differently . look , if uh i i project manager: no , listen listen . when you push the button , the remote control gives a signal . i in th in the first place it gives a signal which it would also send when you put a separate button on it . marketing: yes . yes , that 's true . project manager: the one with dash , that signal gi and when y whe when you do n't push another button on the remote control within five seconds , then the remote control gives a signal for channel one . user interface: yeah . true . marketing: no project manager: i think it works that way , really . marketing: no , it it it works uh if you have n't got uh a special button for it , uh if you push a one , then on your television there will appear a one and a a line , which is an empty space . project manager: yeah , but it 's exact the same that w would appear when you put a separate button push a separate button . industrial designer: yes , but some some old televisions uh you have to uh click on uh a special button , uh then you go to a a next level , you can push two buttons . project manager: yeah , but you do n't underst uh you do n't understand my point . marketing: yep . true . project manager: i think it 's exact the same thing when y industrial designer: you want yes , but some television do n't support it . project manager: no , but then they would a would also support that button , because it 's the same thing . user interface: but the ex project manager: listen , with that that 's that special but button you 're talking about , eh ? that 's just a signal to recei ju they send a t signal to the v tv tv that they have to put a one in on your screen and a dash , which you can pu so you can uh still put another number on it . when you do n't have that separate button , and you push y one , it 's exactly the same thing . do y you the remote control gives that same signal as it would give when you only had industrial designer: no , marketing: no , s some some televisions need the input first uh and and you c industrial designer: a remote can project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yes , project manager: but you give the input . industrial designer: so they need no , they need project manager: you push the one . that 's the same thing as the button with the one and it marketing: no , that 's not true . project manager: yes it it is . marketing: it 's simply not true . it 's simply not true . project manager: think about it . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: no , user interface: you uh you can wai when you push the one you can show on the telly a one and just a dash , and then wait uh two uh seconds or something industrial designer: but uh marketing: uh project manager: and it 's the same thing what happens and a g remote control gives another signal after five seconds that is just one . marketing: no , remote control does n't give signal after five seconds . remote control is a stupid thing . if you push a button , it sends it immediately to to the television . project manager: yeah , that 's true . yeah , but i m uh but it 's i i know for sure that some televisions that w th th the remote control supplied , only ha has the c these buttons with a one and a dash and a two and a dash , but when you use a bu a n remote control that does n't sport these buttons , it still works . industrial designer: yeah , it project manager: but okay , we we 'll impl marketing: no , definitely not . definitely not . user interface: we 'll discuss them in the usability lab . project manager: no , we 'll apply them then for now . user interface: uh eva evaluation . marketing: user interface: i do n't know uh i do n't know if if it 's it 's necessary . project manager: yeah , app just apply them next to the zero , the one and the two . user interface: yeah ? project manager: yeah , i think so . yeah , for now , if we do n't know for sure whether user interface: okay . industrial designer: and the button for the scart uh audio video uh external input . marketing: yes . user interface: ach . project manager: yeah but marketing: uh , you can access that uh via zero , and then minus , i guess . project manager: okay . what i said about uh the remote control sending another signal , that that might not be true , marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: but i still think i it it all tvs in some ways support it , i do n't know . i think it 's more c is m maybe we do n't uh we both do n't really understand how it i how it really works , industrial designer: no , no . project manager: but i think there 's more to in than wha than what you just said . industrial designer: uh , remote control sends one signal at one button uh press . project manager: i do think that uh m tvs support mur multiple kind of remote controls . m industrial designer: uh , some n some televisions when when you want to go further than uh ten project manager: th wo n't work wi with uh industrial designer: no , you have to you have to uh give the television uh two or more signals . project manager: to have that special button . industrial designer: when you uh press one button , you give one signal . and the older televisions need more signals to go a level higher . but project manager: okay , well we 'll see . marketing: yep . industrial designer: when you make the technology that that it will uh give more signals , it could work , but just a basic idea of of of the most uh most y most common uh and simple uh operations on the remote . marketing: okay . i kinda miss the docking station . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes . it 's here on the user interface: marketing: user interface: well it industrial designer: user interface: yeah , uh there 's nothing i think it 's pretty basic , industrial designer: we came uh user interface: the the there 's no fu industrial designer: yes . user interface: there 's one there 's one button , marketing: no nothing really trendy about it . user interface: that 's wha there 's there 's there 's one function and that 's n the one button when you want to find it . industrial designer: but maybe we can maybe we can make the docking station uh uh a bit standard for for uh the other products we sell , marketing: the button . industrial designer: because real real reaction sells more products than only remote controls . so maybe we can uh use the docking station , for example , uh m_p_ three players or or uh marketing: yep . industrial designer: uh hearing devices . marketing: i think that 's very difficult , because of different shapes of uh uh devices . industrial designer: yes , but when you put that same volt voltages on it , you can put uh when the when the when uh o the the the lowest part of it , when it 's o the same as the other products , you can put it all on the same uh marketing: yeah , of course . mm-hmm . well it it got it it has got to fit into the shape , of course . industrial designer: yes , but we can make marketing: the technology and the voltage can be the same . that 's uh that 's true . but uh i if you all make the m having a bottom like this , then they all fit . industrial designer: no , we can make uh make the most lowest part all the same . marketing: yeah , that 's true , but uh industrial designer: when when the the recharger has a has a bit what points out , we can place all on top of it . just have to be big enough for the biggest marketing: yes , but uh i i g should n't it fall then ? it is n't going to fall down ? that 's a bit uh industrial designer: no , when you make it large enough no it it will not . marketing: yeah , i think industrial designer: but then it 's a little bit marketing: no , but if if like this , i 'll i 'll point it out , if you got uh a a a base a base like this , industrial designer: but it 's just an idea . marketing: i wo n't draw it really . if you got a base which is uh as big as this industrial designer: but it 's flat it 's flat as as this , so we can p make all the products as flat as this . user interface: you can . but i i i it 's backwards . marketing: yeah sure , but if you got if you got a tiny player , it can industrial designer: yes , but when you make uh uh a bit of big user interface: but it 's it 's backwards . it 's leaning . it 's leaning backwards , i think , in the in the docking station . marketing: yeah . uh , wha what you could do if you uh from the bottom user interface: that 's text . marketing: oh , right , help . project manager: but user interface: marketing: uh , you could make like a hole in it , you know , of uh in in the industrial designer: yes , little holer littler uh , little products go deeper in it . marketing: yeah . that i that is possible , yep . project manager: well let 's ha let 's talk about the docking station later , because uh maybe we have we have to uh consider the docking station anyway , because we have some uh cost issues still to come . marketing: yeah , sure , you 're right . industrial designer: yes . and uh uh marketing: oh . project manager: but we have to look n i do n't know . industrial designer: the f the look and feel would be great on this uh remote control , because uh you always uh will uh pick up the remote control in the in the smallest uh area . marketing: i do n't like the colours . mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: then your uh left thumb of uh your right thumb is uh near the programme uh button , which is the most common used uh function , and all the other buttons are available for your uh thumb . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so it 's it 's it 's really good design . marketing: yeah . alright . project manager: yes . that 's it ? industrial designer: yes , uh on the side uh there will be a strip of rubber , and in the middle uh there is uh a hard uh a hard material , a bit hard plastic with a light uh behind it . marketing: the light . okay . and other lights ? project manager: i think added lights are gon na be a problem too . industrial designer: yes , we can make also n neon lights on it , or or the buttons that can make uh light on it . marketing: no , o on the on the front . yeah , okay . maybe the uh the logo . industrial designer: yes . user interface: lights ? industrial designer: but , it will also uh uh use batteries , marketing: yeah , why not ? industrial designer: and do we want to marketing: of course . project manager: okay . for now , uh this is uh is good enough . user interface: mm . project manager: yeah , what was uh on the marketing: okay . industrial designer: the all the aspects of the interface buttons were uh project manager: okay , but in the oh yeah , the colour , because we 're gon na use uh one colour for the the plastic enclosure and one colour for the rubber , is n't it ? then we 're gon na do the buttons in the i are we 're gon na have rubber buttons . industrial designer: yes . project manager: and they 're be a they 'll be in the same colour as the rubber on the side . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes . marketing: uh , in the same colour as the side . user interface: yeah . yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah , i think i think that 'll be good . project manager: okay . and i think we should use a a darker colour for the um plastic , and maybe some more m brighter and flashy stuff industrial designer: yes , maybe we can use on the on the lights on the side we can use uh uh multiple uh lights , marketing: yes . industrial designer: so it will uh project manager: yeah , we 'll talk about the lights later . 'cause i also don yeah , industrial designer: yes . marketing: yep . project manager: it 's depends on the costs and such . but uh , and we have to agree uh upon the exact colours , marketing: yeah . project manager: but may i dunno if that 's important , but we 'll talk about that later . okay , for now this is this is okay . marketing: we will . project manager: um , the next p y you gon na give a presentation too ? uh , i have to see the agenda . industrial designer: no . marketing: well , uh yeah , i i 'm gon na do something right there , yeah . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: detail design . marketing: we got ta do that on the right the most right-most screen , because the leftmost project manager: evaluation criteria . marketing: yep , that 's me . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: alright . i will be needing that image , so leave it please . um go away . right , we 're gon na evaluate that design according to a few points . um , we g the four of us are going to do that um together . project manager: marketing: i wan na have a colour over here , come on . right , the remote is not ugly , a bit weird sentence , but the positive things has to be on the left , so i said not ugly instead of ugly . user interface: marketing: uh , what would you say , we we got ta give points to uh to all of these to evaluate uh that design , and please forget the drawing skills of these guys . user interface: project manager: okay . industrial designer: marketing: the remote control is not ugly . how do you feel ? project manager: yeah , i think four maybe would be appropriate , because it 's yeah , maybe it really depends on taste . uh , i mean it 's kind of , our design . it 's marketing: yes . project manager: so if maybe a lot of people find it really ugly , you know , o other people find it really cool . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: background colour . project manager: i do n't know or uh i do n't know how you casting . yeah . industrial designer: i think i think the the fronts will give it a more uh uh uh less uglier uh side , because you can uh make it in your own marketing: how do you guys feel ? the different designs . industrial designer: yes , you can make it in your own uh marketing: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: more to your own personality or or house style . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah , but we d we did n't we 're we 're not planning to use fronts , i believe . marketing: no , not not fronts , but different designs . project manager: with a colour a co a colours . oh , okay . user interface: no , not fronts . different designs . different colours maybe , yeah . industrial designer: yes . marketing: and that 's still uh uh , yeah , is is uh is a little personal touch , i guess . project manager: okay , but oh , maybe we should do three or something that w you know , our marketing: what ? yeah , wha wha what would you uh guys uh think ? personally . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: or forty . user interface: we can make it a one . marketing: personally . yes , but what is it ? industrial designer: i think two or three . user interface: mm yeah . marketing: guido ? user interface: i agree . marketing: two or three . user interface: um , i uh i go for the positive . so i go for two . marketing: i was i was thinking about three , so i guess project manager: uh , i was thinking about four , so i think three is uh user interface: okay , three . marketing: three is uh a bit uh oh , what am i doing ? i 'll mark it . the remote control 's uh uh that n makes uh zapping easy . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah well , let that let 's make that a one . industrial designer: yes . user interface: two . one . one . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: yes . marketing: antek , you agree ? user interface: okay yeah , i 'll i 'll agree . industrial designer: yes . project manager: that 's one thing for sure . marketing: yeah . you 're not antek . user interface: i 'm the i 'm the usability , so marketing: i totally agree . the remote control the remote control 's relevant buttons are prominently visible . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , two or a one , i guess . user interface: the project manager: it 's something we really put work into . marketing: yeah , i yeah . industrial designer: it 's all about the buttons . marketing: i would say a one because uh every button is uh uh relevant . and our oh yeah , it 's a b yeah . yeah ? alright . that 's a one ? you agree ? project manager: yeah . marketing: the remote control has n't got too much redundant or unneeded buttons . i think we totally succeeded there . project manager: but user interface: well project manager: well maybe a two , because of the menu button or something . marketing: oh user interface: yeah , well menu yeah , maybe . marketing: yeah , that 's true . that 's true . project manager: and telete industrial designer: also , the the the buttons of the one , the two , the the digits , project manager: yeah , we do n't know if the uh they 're necessary . industrial designer: o they 're used uh uh marketing: the the yeah , m well , you d you 've got a point . project manager: i think a two . user interface: yeah , true . yeah , i agree . industrial designer: can yes , three , two . project manager: came a long way , but not we did n't not uh marketing: two or three ? user interface: mm two . industrial designer: but you ca n't make a remote control without them , marketing: two ? antek . user interface: because we got industrial designer: because marketing: nay that that that 's true , that 's true . they 're definitely needed . project manager: no , w w it can also always be more simplistic , but two is marketing: so we put it on a two ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yes . marketing: the remote control has got a really trendy look . user interface: industrial designer: yes . a one . project manager: yeah , uh a t i think a two . marketing: maarten . user interface: well . industrial designer: project manager: yeah yeah , y i it 's hard to say from this picture . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: we we 've tried to make it uh the the best trendy look uh ever . user interface: yeah . marketing: ever , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: guido . project manager: but i do think it 's more user interface: uh , i will i will make it a three , because uh yeah . i i th project manager: but i do think that it 's more trendy than beautiful . industrial designer: yes . marketing: yeah , uh i agree . i agree . project manager: so so i think maybe it has to score higher uh on this than on the user interface: yeah . true , yeah . marketing: i was planning to give it a two , uh where i give the not ugly uh project manager: a th a three . marketing: oh , yeah , that 's true . you agree on the two ? user interface: yeah . project manager: i i uh when you compare to the industrial designer: yes . marketing: great . remote control has n't got too much redundant or unneeded buttons . project manager: uh uh what 's the difference with user interface: marketing: uh , i copied that one . well , uh forget that . project manager: okay . marketing: um go away . remote control has got innovative technology implanted . user interface: no . we 're not project manager: no . industrial designer: no . user interface: well , maybe the the the on the side . industrial designer: no , not lcd , so . project manager: yeah , but we uh you mean the rubber stuff ? marketing: yeah , and the light . project manager: yeah , but we have t we have to talk about the lights uh . user interface: and the light maybe . industrial designer: but that that 's not innovative . user interface: but project manager: and i do n't u also it 's also really not innovative , industrial designer: lights lights are marketing: well , i g project manager: it 's more marketing: it 's not seven ? project manager: no , six . or seven maybe , yeah . user interface: well , six . no , six . project manager: or six . industrial designer: six . marketing: why uh why not a seven ? user interface: six . project manager: yeah , mine is seven . industrial designer: because we 've tried to make it a little bit innovative , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but it but it project manager: uh it 's uh depends on the on the maybe marketing: how ? industrial designer: with the lights it it 's it 's kind of future user interface: project manager: no , i think i think actually it 's a seven maybe , but there 's nothing innovative about it . marketing: yeah , you think the lights are innovative ? well , it 's n true . uh , i agree , industrial designer: but still you can retrieve it when it 's when it 's gone , with the with marketing: m but user interface: innovative in generally or just f original for marketing: i 'll yeah , you you did n't draw the docking station . industrial designer: yes . the docking station is a is a little bit innovative . project manager: n no no , marketing: yeah , it it 's i think i think with its project manager: t . user interface: a docking station is innova project manager: yeah , i mean the dock station , but but uh , i think the the docking station , it 's gon na be a kind of a problem . user interface: industrial designer: it 's a part of the remote . marketing: i think more m user interface: okay . industrial designer: and with the speaker on the there 's also a speaker . project manager: but marketing: uh that that 's n project manager: well , let 's leave it open for uh for us later to see what , because we have to reevaluate anyway . well i i yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: no ? marketing: no uh , well , the agenda says evaluate now , so i think we project manager: okay , for now it 's a six or a seven uh , sev marketing: it 's it 's a six . project manager: six maybe , user interface: six . project manager: because industrial designer: but the retrieval or the marketing: that m f project manager: yeah , but i do n't i do n't know if it 's very inno yeah . marketing: yeah , for the retrieval function . yeah . i think that 's very innovative for a remote control . project manager: yeah , v industrial designer: yes , how would you innovate a remote control more ? project manager: yeah , more through uh like function tv functionalities and industrial designer: to put it on your head . project manager: no no , you know what i mean . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: you have must be innovative technology for remote controls , but more in how you control stuff , not in how you find your marketing: yeah sure , but project manager: yeah . yeah , it 's marketing: but i d i definitely do n't think it 's a five , project manager: that 's that 's think about it la later on marketing: but project manager: and uh marketing: remote control is easy to use . project manager: yeah , as a a one or a two ma uh at least . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah , a two . industrial designer: yes . marketing: i think a two . project manager: yeah , it 's good . marketing: yeah ? user interface: more two . marketing: come on . the remote control has n't got uh . project manager: no , i would have seen that one before . oh , you skipped one uh industrial designer: marketing: i 've just filled uh project manager: uh , here . marketing: go away . industrial designer: you like the buttons . marketing: i found twelve questions so much , but it still is ten . project manager: remote control will be bought by marketing: it will be bought by people under the age of forty . project manager: yeah . definitely . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yes . project manager: well industrial designer: in in and comparing with uh people of th of the age above ? marketing: no no no . no , just if they if they buy it . project manager: uh , just in general . yeah , a two . industrial designer: we do n't know . but project manager: yeah , but i think i think two . marketing: yeah , what do you think ? user interface: yeah , i think two , yeah . i agree . two . marketing: antek ? industrial designer: yes , two , but only in c when you compare it with with elderly . project manager: uh , that is not the question . it 's just w it will be bought by people under forty . marketing: no , that 's no comparison . project manager: yeah , you can yeah , you can be very picky about it . marketing: and i do n't mean two people . industrial designer: this is just guessing . project manager: ah yeah , just make it we 'll make it a two . industrial designer: make it a two . marketing: w w industrial designer: when it succeeds , uh it can get a two , mu marketing: right , the rem the remote control has recognisable corporate image , colour , logo or slogan . project manager: oh no . yeah . yeah , you have make an user interface: we do n't have the slogan though . project manager: slogan is quite obvious . marketing: oh , the slogan . project manager: oh the oh sorry , no , not not the slogan . marketing: can we see the slogan ? project manager: yeah , you can put that on the side if if we would like to . user interface: the logo . industrial designer: a logo . user interface: underneath it or something . industrial designer: yes , uh encrypted uh with project manager: yeah , and i will i th still think it 's gon na be a two or a three . marketing: are we gon na do that ? user interface: a three . three . project manager: maybe a three this time . user interface: yeah , a three . industrial designer: yes . marketing: three ? i agree . because of the slogan project manager: and uh marketing: remote control 's got a basic design intended uh for novice users . project manager: uh , it 's a one or a two . user interface: yeah , two . industrial designer: yes . project manager: yeah , make it a two . user interface: two . marketing: two ? two . alright . we got ta add up the scores now to see our total average . four , five , seven , nine . forget that . fifteen , seventeen , twenty one , twenty four , twenty six . twenty six . it 's a two point six . project manager: it 's not that bad . marketing: alright , we project manager: yeah , and that 's mostly the inno marketing: yeah . project manager: when we uh score higher on innovative technology , we would score two , marketing: yeah . true . project manager: which is uh quite a great score . okay . uh , this is was uh the evaluation ? marketing: this was my evaluation . so project manager: because i i still think that the most important part of this meeting still has marketing: we did a pretty nice job until now . project manager: yeah . marketing: um , is this your industrial designer: is there something after this uh meeting ? or marketing: whatever . well , i think we got ta fill out another questionnaire . user interface: no . okay , yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: still opened or uh yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , finance . because um user interface: shoot . project manager: i received uh a spreadsheet . marketing: a five . a five . project manager: yeah , but i uh actually do n't need this presentation , i guess . oh . marketing: does n't matter . project manager: i 'm gon na open the spreadsheet and we 're gon na work this out together , because i did n't really fin uh i have a . user interface: project manager: did n't really finish it . well , we uh we 'll see . we 'll stumble upon some problems . marketing: we probably will . project manager: i probably have already opened it here . try it again . first of all , the mm all the docking station and costs and such are not included in this list . but let 's let 's st start with beginning . we include one battery . i i uh i 'll explain its uh , the the components are listed over here . uh , price is given . we um yeah , marketing: the amount , yeah . project manager: we we uh indicate the amount of components of the specif specific component , how much we need of them . and then uh , we 'll uh calcula do n't watch the number yet . i do n't know if it 's filled in properly . okay , we need one battery . one battery . i think one battery is enough . industrial designer: yes . project manager: we do n't need kinetic , solar cells , hand dynamo . a s okay , this this is a p first problem . uh , i think we should know how many simple chips , regular chips industrial designer: uh it 's it 's one one chip , but but you have to choose one from it . project manager: okay . but industrial designer: the simple chip is e enough i i think , but with the lights with the lights and the retrieval , it can be uh marketing: i do n't know project manager: where did we find this information ? was it marketing: i have n't got an idea on on which we need to use , really . project manager: i think it was uh your job in the first uh meet uh , f your first presentation to make this clear , but then you had some t time problems . user interface: no . industrial designer: no , uh i yes , my my my uh marketing: yeah . industrial designer: the the email i got said uh simple chip , but when we put in the speaker and the retriever uh device , it will uh cost a a bit more , like i think the advanced chip maybe . marketing: yeah . and how do you know ? i mean , you got that email . did it point out what to use them for ? industrial designer: bec no , the they did n't know about a retriever or a speaker uh in it . project manager: maybe you can uh look it up right now . okay , but okay . when we do n't when we leave the uh retriever and such aside , what industrial designer: then it 's a simple chip . project manager: then it would be a simple chip . and with the retriever , it would be an advanced chip . industrial designer: yes , i i i s i marketing: alright , well , point out the advanced chip for now , i guess . project manager: okay . industrial designer: that will be enough for future uh recommendations . project manager: yeah , but it will it will it will be cause a lot of problems . the sample sensor sample speaker . what is it m is that the speaker we were t i do n't know what it is . industrial designer: i do n't know it uh either . marketing: i do n't know . project manager: okay , we went for the double-curved case industrial designer: yes . project manager: made out of plastic and rubber . and with a special colour . i guess that 's what we were user interface: well , special colour . . project manager: yeah , i do n't know about the special colour , but i think w uh industrial designer: otherwise , you get uh a standard uh plastic colour . user interface: i do n't marketing: i do n't know if it 's very special . project manager: yeah , i think we uh we have special colours . user interface: mm okay . industrial designer: standard rubber . marketing: alright , that 's okay . project manager: okay , then the push-button , i was just counting them . industrial designer: st project manager: uh , i think you have to indicate the amount of push-buttons we want to use , is n't it ? user interface: whoa , it 's a little project manager: well that 's bit of a problem , industrial designer: yes . project manager: because i re but i really do n't understand that , because i can imagine a remote control with far more push-buttons , and it would n't be possible according to this uh sheet . user interface: that 's huge . no . we have the simplest buttons . marketing: no . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: no , it 's only uh when you use push-buttons , it will cost that much . marketing: i do n't think so , because it says amount . industrial designer: if you use a scroll-wheel project manager: ah . yeah , it would n't marketing: the the the yellow row is the amount of project manager: fill in the number of components you plan to use in the and the total cost i do n't know . i industrial designer: maybe it 's the kind of push-buttons . you can have f four kind of push-buttons . user interface: uh , one til nine . industrial designer: rubber . user interface: is that one or is that nine buttons ? industrial designer: you can have uh project manager: and i count them like this . one two three uh four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve and thirteen . user interface: yeah . project manager: because oh , this is oh , this is one , okay . twelve , okay , then it would be eighteen , because uh , i uh rated them as uh um as uh uh uh separate buttons . marketing: to n industrial designer: different , marketing: that 's total of four buttons . project manager: yes . industrial designer: yes . project manager: and plus these two , f uh plus the mute button , and it 's will be uh eighteen . marketing: i think that eighteen . one two three four five , si industrial designer: why is that so uh expensive . project manager: yeah , i do n't understand . y i do i do n't get the point , because it 's would be s relatively so expensive , just these m small buttons . user interface: is it cents , the the the fifty cents a button ? marketing: fifty cents for one single stupid button . user interface: no way . industrial designer: so , whe when you so then it project manager: well , okay , well well let 's make it just one . industrial designer: it 's eighty percent of the price of the of the amount of project manager: here , now it 's now it 's already s marketing: yeah , exactly . yeah . project manager: shall we just give our own interpretation to , user interface: project manager: because else we would really have a problem . it would be impossible to make it marketing: i ca n't user interface: it 's way marketing: i i i could n't understand it if it was fifty cents per uh uh per button . really . industrial designer: when you have the same amount of button , you have to put in wi in your carton . board . project manager: and and less buttons than this is n't possible . industrial designer: and then throw it marketing: yeah , yeah , industrial designer: project manager: this is the most simple user interface: no , no no . project manager: yeah , it is possible , but i 've never seen one before . industrial designer: but whe project manager: industrial designer: i 've seen one uh one remote control with only the pu yeah , only with uh page up , page down and volume , project manager: marketing: no , really . project manager: yeah , without the numbers . that 's possible . yeah , we could skip the numbers . user interface: yeah , uh industrial designer: but but marketing: yeah , but i d i would n't want to own that . really . user interface: that 's still four . industrial designer: uh , it 's it 's still for little children . they can handle that remote control , marketing: yeah . project manager: then uh , teletext would also be im impossible . industrial designer: but but it is n't fo yes , it 's for it 's li uh it 's just for a little user interface: yeah , that 's no option , that 's no option . project manager: okay , we 'll we 'll just okay . but then still , when we there 's no room for a docking station or something . tha w le let 's see th we have uh oh yeah , button supplements . we 'll give the buttons special colour . we 'll give them a special form . uh , i think we should mark the special form thing , because it this will be some special forms incorporated in these big buttons , i guess . user interface: a special colour , why a special colour ? project manager: because the buttons will be uh d will be matching colour between the buttons and the rubber surroundings . user interface: but wha what s what special ? project manager: i think that 's the what they mean by a special colour . user interface: okay , yeah . industrial designer: otherwise , it user interface: uh , yeah . industrial designer: otherwise it would be the marketing: i do n't think the special form is really true . project manager: i think all the special colour things have to be marked over here , because that 's what we were planning to do , making it industrial designer: special form also , it says . project manager: yeah , special material r also , marketing: is it ? project manager: because i has rubber . and the buttons have to be rubber . industrial designer: what is the normal material ? user interface: plastic . marketing: yeah , i dunno . industrial designer: sh yeah . user interface: plastic , i think . industrial designer: classic ? user interface: plastic . industrial designer: oh , plastic . marketing: plastic . project manager: 'kay , but the problem now is that the there 's no such thing as a docking station in this list , but we can all imagine that it would be impossible to make a docking station for thirty cents . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but we can uh sell the remote control and uh sell the docking station project manager: separately . user interface: se no no no . industrial designer: yes . and and but we do n't have to tell it , but what we can say of can um almost make it impossible to buy a remote control without the docking station . project manager: yeah , yeah . yeah , but i do like the idea , but we yeah . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: it uh but it then the docking station is n't relevant for this project anymore , but we can marketing: no . industrial designer: no , but you otherwise you ca n't retrieve it . project manager: but then you still have to use we have to find out what chip we u need . marketing: yeah , i really do n't get it . i mean if it 's a simple chip , then we suddenly got two euros and thirty cents . project manager: i think we can agree on this . i i think the special colour thing has to be uh marked . 'cause i think we uh marketing: yeah , yep . project manager: yeah , i think that 's what what what they uh mean industrial designer: but for two euros and thirty cents , we uh we do n't get a docking station . marketing: i think so , too . oh , i do n't know . project manager: but can we find out uh about uh this chips ? because when we do n't need a d a docking station , then probably we also have only we also need a simple chip . user interface: and then we can get a docking station . project manager: and maybe then we can do something extra . oh , n uh oh , still industrial designer: for project manager: oh , it 's gon na get more expensive with . two . user interface: project manager: then we have some money left . we can put then industrial designer: for two euros . project manager: we can put a scroll-wheel on it or something . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: uh why ? project manager: yeah , well who knows . or a little bit of tin titanium . marketing: i mean i i if you if it would cost two euros , that had a total a total thing , it would be nice too , i mean uh we 're not gon na add uh a trip to hawaii to it . user interface: but what what can we do project manager: yeah , or we can ki do the kinetic cells . that 's also maybe an idea . user interface: but uh what can we do with the simple chip and what 's difference with a regular chip and a advanced chip ? project manager: yeah that 's what then what he has to find out . maybe you can uh find it in your email right now , then we know then we exactly know what it will cost us . user interface: if if i project manager: maybe is that that 's nice to know . user interface: regular chip and because we do n't have uh special functions to use uh in advanced chip , for example . project manager: yeah , bu bu but when we yeah , but when we skip when we um when we do n't use the do we 're not gon na make the docking station , then we still yeah , we need something else maybe to make it kind of special , marketing: i like the hand dynamo part . project manager: because that was our our special feature . marketing: we can make a plain docking station for two euros . user interface: yeah . we 'll go back uh tomorrow . marketing: i mean project manager: yeah , okay , you can also do that , but maybe marketing: wi wi without recharge project manager: it still is a special remote control cons uh you know , wi its form is special and material . marketing: yeah , but but we can make a docking station for two euros uh if you do n't put the recharge function in it . i mean , it has a shape . project manager: yeah , but for two euros , then we have still maybe we have to use the advanced chip , marketing: of course it has a shape , but i i project manager: then two euros is n't even possible . marketing: why should that not be possible ? project manager: yeah , then because then we 'd thirty cents left . marketing: no , for for the uh for the docking station if you do if you choose the simple chip . project manager: yeah , but yeah , i do n't know , because maybe d uh yeah , we have to find out with the simple chip . user interface: that 's the question . if we do i do we need an advanced chip , or is it okay f project manager: yeah , and w and and we uh need f marketing: yes . industrial designer: it is n't in my information , so i do n't know it uh either . project manager: and what is this ? sample sensor sample speaker . industrial designer: it is n't in my information , i uh i i 've got a schematic view of the remote control , but nothing about uh advanced chips or project manager: you can look at it for s presentation . s technical functions ? user interface: no . industrial designer: uh i 've got here in uh user interface: no no , they were uh mine , yeah . project manager: oh . industrial designer: i will put a i will put a page on it . when my mouse works again . project manager: oh , oh oh . hey . oh . industrial designer: my mouse is uh marketing: dead . industrial designer: yes . marketing: reanimate it . user interface: died . industrial designer: oh . ah , i 've got it . i will put uh my email on the the network . marketing: what the hell are these ? industrial designer: it 's on it . marketing: oh , whatever . user interface: yeah , it 's open . marketing: project manager: mm . i do n't think here it 's in here already . user interface: it 's circuit board . it 's only just basics for for project manager: it 's nothing about s yeah . user interface: at the end circuit there is an infrared led . industrial designer: yes . marketing: this is n't helpful . project manager: no . but i in the presentation of yours , there was also something about different components . which one was it ? user interface: components design . project manager: functional requirements ? industrial designer: um marketing: no , that was my presentation . user interface: components design maybe . n on top . industrial designer: yes , that was mine . project manager: ah . ah yes , it was the second one . industrial designer: but that was my second project manager: yeah , it was your second marketing: it 's already open . project manager: your first presentation . marketing: it 's at the bottom . project manager: sorry ? user interface: working design . marketing: it 's uh at your task bar . user interface: yeah , but it 's the the other one . marketing: oh . industrial designer: mm project manager: uh , this is n this is not this n user interface: was it working design or components design ? marketing: sorry . project manager: that 's not the right one . i do n't oh . marketing: okay , sorry . project manager: no , this is the other one . or maybe something is uh maybe there 's something abo in in these user interface: chip set . industrial designer: but this is the same uh this is o only the possibilities . project manager: here . industrial designer: yeah . we can use a simple , a regular , or advanced chip . marketing: yeah , nice . i it does n't say anything . user interface: the display requires an advanced chip . project manager: you know that a push-button requires a simple chip , but a scroll-wheel , it it me requires industrial designer: ah , okay . project manager: okay , so we only need a simple chip . user interface: requires . industrial designer: with the light . user interface: little lights . yeah , but that that 's just the same as the the led . project manager: no no , that 's just a simple chip . a scroll-wheel marketing: that 's not needed . project manager: it s uh only states that a scroll-wheel requires a regular chip , and that a display requires an advanced chip . so , we do n't need any of them . marketing: a display uh is , of course , uh for showing letters . for showing text . industrial designer: lcd . user interface: yeah . marketing: i do n't think that uh just a l a little light user interface: no . i think uh the uh normal uh simple chip will be okay . marketing: yeah , i agree . project manager: and what 's the sample sensor slash sample speaker ? industrial designer: maybe you can say against the remote uh page uh f uh page up , page down . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , i guess so too . user interface: yeah , true . well , that 's not too what we want . marketing: next channel . no . well , we might want it , but user interface: project manager: okay . industrial designer: all in twelve euros . project manager: back to the costs . industrial designer: twelve euros and fifty cents . marketing: yeah . project manager: so we 're gon na use the simple chip . user interface: so , simple chip is okay . marketing: great . delete . industrial designer: and the lights . where uh are the lights ? marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , lights , yeah , there 's no marketing: well , there 're three , i guess . user interface: category . project manager: nah , there is some money left to be spent . user interface: can we do it wi within two two euro ? marketing: i think we can make a docking station . yeah . project manager: okay , but what we have to think about now is that is is it still a special remote control ? but i mean it is n't it has n't got any innovative technology , we are n't gon na apply any uh innovated innovative te technology anyway , i think . i do n't i do n't see any possibility to do so , because it would would n't fit our defi design philosophy . user interface: mm-hmm . but it 's original . project manager: but what w is there some extra marketing: no , that 's true . project manager: maybe i think maybe the kinetic thing is something . instead of the rechargeable the rechargeable thing was something to um know , so y so people would n't have to worry about their batteries anymore . marketing: m bu project manager: maybe we if we put the kinetic thing in it industrial designer: but but sometimes you put a project manager: yeah , you leave the p yeah , i know , but still i they will think about that . i mean if you u industrial designer: kinetics are n't uh nowadays only used in watches and that 's because you 're always walking . project manager: the uh it 's made for s people well , the they do n't if it was uh uh r useless technology , they would n't put it uh as a possibility . industrial designer: uh solar cells are useless . project manager: and i it it th th the the target marketing: or the hand dynamo dynamo project manager: the target uh group are people who zap regularly and throw with their remote control as a matter of speaking . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: because i think it when when there w was a remote control where it was useful to have a kinetic uh uh power source , then it would be this one . because it 's one it gets thrown around thrown around a lot and it gets used a lot hey that maybe that 's cool that 's a cool thing about it , you know . you do n't use batteries . marketing: yeah , but but if we ca project manager: i 've never seen it before in a remote control . user interface: but then we could make a docking station . marketing: i do n't know if five minutes . project manager: no , we we we ca n't make a docking station anyway . marketing: that 's not true . project manager: yeah , we can als or uh also m we we can make one user interface: wow , w why no li marketing: we can make a docking station for two thirty . project manager: we can still make user interface: look at now , we got two industrial designer: fo for a docking station . marketing: two thirty . user interface: two thirty left . ca ca n't we make a docking station of that ? marketing: we can make a docking station . sure . industrial designer: with a cable , with uh buttons on it , with retrieval uh device in it . marketing: sure . user interface: i do n't know . marketing: the power device is is i i is very cheap . project manager: marketing: that 's just a regular uh power cable and whatever . project manager: yeah , but be serious , then uh the docking station will be a fifth of the price of the remote control . industrial designer: wi with a button to user interface: well , we we uh industrial designer: wi with a button to retrieve it , so it will beep . marketing: so . industrial designer: uh , so it 's uh wireless technology . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , but we uh we do n't inc we have n't looked at the these costs of the speaker and other stuff . i do n't think it 's realistic for you to do so . marketing: well then it 's a useless project . industrial designer: look at the case , project manager: oh , because we industrial designer: the case the case of of uh of uh user interface: yeah , then we do n't have any innovation things . project manager: we well look at all the special stuff we have . colour a the colours are special , the form is special . it th this is whole concept . uh maybe it with the kinetic thing , i think we could do uh do a compromise uh with the kim kinetic thing . marketing: ca n't we uh ca n't we say fifteen euros ? project manager: uh , no . user interface: marketing: no , sta yeah i mean industrial designer: no , then we have to sell it for thirty euros . marketing: no . user interface: no , we only make less profit of it . industrial designer: it 's the marketing: you can sell for twenty seven and a half . then you make as much profit as you would with twelve and a half production costs . user interface: no . project manager: yeah , i don my suggestion is to just forget about the whole docking station thing and make it uh like a uh uh i i i i still fee i also feel this concept of making it kinetic , because of the you know , it g it gives something dynamic to the remote control . marketing: i do n't think industrial designer: maybe we can uh can do it both . maybe we can do it both uh in the in the in the remote . battery and kinetic . marketing: no . project manager: no , that would n't n no . marketing: thirteen twenty . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: yeah , and it is also not a good it 's not you have to really do it only kinetic , you do n't want it to think about batteries anymore . marketing: and i think only industrial designer: yes , but when it 's then when it marketing: yeah , but only kinetic , then you got ta project manager: no no . industrial designer: then you have to shake it uh and all when it 's when it 's empty . project manager: yeah , it 's great . marketing: you you got ta throw uh throw it through the room like twenty times an hour , really . industrial designer: project manager: no no no . no no , this is very sophisticated technology technology . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: when you use it your remote like once a day , or maybe even less i i it industrial designer: you asked for three d no , that 's n that 's not true . uh , a watch is uh kinetic because you walk all the time . marketing: no . project manager: it we can make it yeah no . becau be but a remote control gets why do they state that this technology can be used if it industrial designer: yes , solar cells are also stated . project manager: yeah , m but a w uh uh n uh a calculator also works on r on solar cells . industrial designer: why do n't we use solar cells then ? project manager: because i think the d whole dynamic part , do you know , appeals to me qui uh thinking of our design philosophy , you know , with the rubber parts and uh sturdiness of the thing , and y when you move it around a lot , then people find the idea funny that when i move my remote control around and industrial designer: that 's true . marketing: yeah , it 's funny for a week . i guess something like that , where you have to move it around very frequently , is demotivating . project manager: yeah , but you do n't have to . trust me . the idea of this technology is that you do n't think about it , it just happens . marketing: no , i i do n't move my uh my remote control very much , seriously . project manager: okay , then we d okay , well y we do n't have to do it , but what that would just have a lack of key features , you know . industrial designer: oui . project manager: you m have to put something on your box . you have to make people buy it and uh we can really can do the docking thing , uh it 's not yeah , uh we can do it , but it 's would be a easy way out . industrial designer: you can do it for fifty cents . user interface: marketing: well , we 've got more than fifty cents . project manager: okay , but we have to grou to agree upon something , industrial designer: the c the case the case alone is is is uh project manager: because uh we only have a minute left or so . industrial designer: the case alone for uh remote control is at least one euro . then we have one euro thirty for the whole docking station . project manager: no no , it 's not possible . okay , w b we can s we can leave it on be well then then th it 's this is then then our concept is ready . user interface: cheap remote control . project manager: yeah , we make some extra profit of it . marketing: yeah . no , we wo n't , but that 's um something else . user interface: it w it wo n't tell , but industrial designer: but now marketing: no , this not gon na sell . no . project manager: huh , any ideas ? marketing: of course not . user interface: no , uh , n no industrial designer: great . it 's great . user interface: yeah , we just have to go all what we did today again . you have to do it over . industrial designer: our remote control . marketing: we come back tomorrow , okay ? project manager: no no uh there 's still there 's still someth concept and something special left . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes . user interface: the industrial designer: seventy euros . project manager: i mean we 're gon na it 's gon na excel in in on in the the range in the field of design and and uh looks and feel . user interface: no , but no . project manager: that 's what it 's makes it special . yeah , and i would li i would have liked a kinetic part as well , to give it some just to give it some extra special feature , and uh i know it will work , but uh it 's it 's an they 're they 're not putting technologies on this , but if it if it was impossible to to make it happen . industrial designer: why not a hand dynamo then ? user interface: project manager: okay , well we leave it like this . then it 's c then we 're yeah . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: we ca n't do anything else . warning , finish meeting now . industrial designer: we 're done . project manager: okay , project e uh industrial designer: is this it ? project manager: well , we were gon na what look take a look at the last sheet . marketing: yeah , sure . industrial designer: okay . marketing: no , we ca n't . project manager: yeah , we have to yeah , it 's user interface: no . industrial designer: yes . marketing: yes , yes . celebration . i do n't see why , but industrial designer: where 's the champagne ? marketing: i think we got ta fill out another questionnaire , to be honest . user interface: yeah ? industrial designer: i do n't uh hear a bell . marketing: no , not yet . industrial designer: user interface: we can do it here then . marketing: alright , i 'll see you guys in a minute . industrial designer: bye . user interface: can we ca n't we do it here ? marketing: i do n't think so . i do n't know . i do n't i do n't think so . user interface: industrial designer: uh-huh . just fill that one in . user interface: yeah , we 're doing now . but it 's . oh , okay . project manager: uh , i do n't know . user interface: nice .

firstly , the team agreed that only one battery is enough and using kinetic was not a must since it would be too expensive and useless . secondly , one chip was enough and they were going to choose one from different types of regular chips . however , as the team found out they could incorporate more valuable components , the team decided to use one advanced chip for now . in terms of the material used on the device , the team decided to use a combination of rubber and plastic with one small part used in one special materia , like titanium , as well as a special color . moreover , the teletext was discarded and the docking station was added . as for the infrared led , although it was originally presented on marketing 's powerpoint , the team agreed that it was not helpful . later , the team found that regular chips were enough for the scroll-button and only the lcd display required the advanced ones , so again the team came back for the regular chip and cut some costs . in the end , the team incorporated solar cells for the battery .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: hi kate . okay , carry on . industrial designer: just just carry on . project manager: alright um this is the beginning of the third meeting , the conceptual design meeting . um our agenda should be um that we 're opening the meeting , i have the minutes from the previous meeting are on the shared f drive at this point . um and we should each have a presentation to make . um we have certain decisions to make and we have forty minutes total . it 's twenty five after two at the moment , so forty minutes is five after three , um which i 'll be keeping an eye on the clock for us . okay . um there are the decisions we have to turn to , but we 'll come back to them in a minute after i take us to the minutes of the previous meeting . right um as we remember , i opened the meeting , the four of us were present , the meeting the first meeting 's minutes were reviewed and approved . um sarah , you presented a marketing research report um which pretty much rep represented that fifteen to thirty five year olds uh it has to be hand-held , power , channel , volume , number keys , possibly a speech recognition . and then steph did a second presentation um that those functions plus streamlining them with big user-friendly keys that were easy to use . i think all of us agreed with those things . kate presented a working design of going after going over the basics on the whiteboard um that it should be a simple mass-produced device , because of the twelve and a half pence cost . um but we did talk about possibly using rechargeable batteries and having a docking place as a selling point . um and the new requirements that it for be for tv only um and that it include the l so slogan and colour of the uh corporate design be included . um the corporate image . so we agreed that the target market would be fifteen to thirty five with more money than sense , that were decision makers . alternatively it would be a manufacturer to enclose it with the tv , but it still should meet those parameters . um and that the function we agreed was volume , power , numbers , enter , channels , a way to move between channels , easy to use and hand-held . um at that point we agreed that sarah would look at the current cost of competition , what what do the current ones sell for . um and steph was gon na look at ec ergonomics . kate was gon na look at cost and feasibility of the various possibilities that we discussed . and i was to type up these minutes and work on the final report . is this a fair presentation of what our last meeting was ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . project manager: okay . right . so we 're ready to close that and go back to our that one . right . we 're up to the point of the go back . um the three presentations . so we 're going to pull the plug on me and turn to sarah . is that okay ? is that alright with everybody else ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yep . project manager: especially since kate asked to be last . sarah , i 'm sorry if i misspelled your name , i did n't know whether it was s_a_r_a_ or s_a_r_h_ . marketing: i respond to either . project manager: you respond to whatever you get , huh ? marketing: no worries . project manager: okay . um , did you do your hit user interface: yeah , project manager: ah , there it is . ta-da . marketing: okay , first thing i want to address is um one of the points that florence brought up , which was uh current cost of the competition devices , similar to the ones that stephanie uh showed us and and they 're uh twenty to sixty euros , depending on uh branding . user interface: right . marketing: some of them that have a higher brand recognition are on the more expensive end . but i think that with the current um price that we 're searching for , we 're well within , even on the lower end , of the uh of the market . project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: but i 'm going to move on to more interesting um more vibrant things . so , i investigated the remote control market in greater detail , and my uh the theme of what i was to work on was uh trend watch . user interface: marketing: and project manager: 'kay . user interface: industrial designer: sorry . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: i 'm glad to see the marketing budget is being so well spent on . marketing: project manager: marketing: i know that you all are a distance from cutting edge marketing research , industrial designer: marketing: so you know , i 'm just gon na try to cloak it in really professional terms here . what 's hot , fruit and veg . spongy . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: and this is all over the catwalks , paris , milan , and i 'm talking about clothing , furniture , shoes . industrial designer: marketing: this is really interesting change from past years , project manager: mm . user interface: marketing: because it is much more organic , um some would say approachable . and i think if we 're to refashion our view of what we want in a remote control , we should perhaps think about incorporating technologically interesting fabrics and some of the bold colours into a simple handset . so . i also did a little research on um what again are the most important priorities in uh decision making about uh purchasing . fancy . functional is out . and f the fancy , and that 's exactly the term , i 'm i 'm thinking polished , elegant , you know , kind of innovative , but a cut above . this is twice as important as the next finding , which is technologically innovative . this is interesting , 'cause i think in the last meeting we were talking about technology as being so important , but maybe what 's innovative is having it simple with um with uh technologically superior fabrics or uh , you know , designed in interesting substances . ease of use . again , pretty low , i mean it 's the top three , but each of the uh fancy and technologically innovative are far more important . so i think we should cloak the streamlined remote control device in a series of fruit fruit themed sleeves . user interface: industrial designer: i think that 's a good idea . do n't you ? marketing: y yeah , you know project manager: it sounds like the the uh covers that they use for the remote , you know , your t your cell phone . user interface: yes . marketing: exactly . exactly . i was thinking though that instead of having something uh like patterned , you know , so , you know , something similar to a summer dress . you know , it would have like fruit and veg , is that we actually make these spongy . project manager: mm . marketing: they could be ini initially i thought we could start with kind of um fruit that would suit kind of uh a long uh hand-held , so banana , pineapple and pear . um it could actually the sleeve could take up a lot of the development and the remote control , we 'd just need to get reductionist on it . user interface: marketing: they could be interchangeable , they 're spongy , that goes back to ergonomic , and the youngsters love 'em , fun for the whole family , everyone can have their own . so what we 're talking about is changing . this concept . everyone has a tv remote , but then we add in the fact that they could each have their own individual fruit . user interface: marketing: that 's what 's hot on the catwalks . so , this is my this is what i 'm thinking . project manager: hmm . user interface: project manager: uh-huh mm . in most families , do n't is n't the remote is a remote . marketing: y yeah , but i think i think what this would allow is perhaps a person in the family who had the most opinion about it we all need a remote , project manager: mm . marketing: but the person who is really perhaps active in personalising , i 'm thinking the teenager , the someone fifteen to thirty five would go out and get this additional thing the same way as you mentioned that people would get the cell phone covers . user interface: so when your dad 's sitting there , overriding your decision , going no we 're gon na watch this , you can bring out your own remote and be like zap , no we 're gon na watch this . marketing: yeah . w and plus i think project manager: mm . well actually some households do have three and four tvs marketing: uh yeah . user interface: project manager: and they would have a remote for each one , marketing: yeah . project manager: so . marketing: yeah . so this is an idea and i i you know , this is exactly what the research has uh has shown . so i really open this up to uh any other feedback . this spongy fruit and veg . industrial designer: yeah , i i think we 're gon na have some trouble when we get down to the component design on this . marketing: thanks . alright . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: spongy is gon na be difficult , i 'm afraid . user interface: yep . and as for as for um well budgeting as well , if we 're gon na have lots of different interchangeable components . project manager: hmm . marketing: i i just have my ear to the market , guys . user interface: is this to the market ? industrial designer: yeah , i mean basically we can make these things out of wood , titanium , plastic or rubber . i suppose rubber is the closest to spongy , marketing: is spongiest , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that would add industrial designer: i was thinking titanium myself . user interface: i was thinking titanium , i was thinking it 's just i have been influenced by pictures of ipods , and they 're also minimalist and shiny . marketing: mm-hmm . they are and they they would fulfil the uh first um priority , which is fancy . i think many of us would associate those with fancy . something else we could do is uh call it something that 's fruit and veg oriented . we could call it uh the name . project manager: are we talking about the device itself or the c or a cover for the device that would be an interchangeable cov cover as a separate product ? marketing: well it would be uh a a very simple product that would have a spongy sleeve that would be interchangeable . so project manager: perhaps perhaps that desi that particular suggestion needs to go back to management user interface: yeah , but it 's kind of pointless , is n't it ? project manager: and perhaps go to another group to actually design as a separate product . user interface: yeah . marketing: that , you know , that might be user interface: let 's delegate . project manager: wo would that be agreeable ? marketing: and then we could keep it titanium . industrial designer: yeah . w w would it be helpful if um i described the components a bit , because i think it would give you um maybe bring this discussion back to earth of what we can actually physically do . user interface: yeah , maybe . or project manager: do you wan na be next or you want kate to go next ? user interface: i think possibly it might be more useful if kate went next . project manager: okay , we 'll move the user interface: um industrial designer: user interface: you can even have them in different flavours as well . so that if you just wan na sit there and chew on the remote , it could be like pear flavour , marketing: yeah . or s or smelly . scratchy user interface: yeah . scratch and sniff . marketing: uh well i was really thinking a lot about the i_ uh the imac kind of gel gem tone . industrial designer: right , well marketing: it 's hot on the streets , guys . industrial designer: i i i think some of this um user interface: industrial designer: you 're gon na be a little disappointed with some of the things i have to tell you , but i 'm afraid this is the real world . so um i 've been looking at the the basics of how these devices actually have to work in order to operate , and i 've had some discussions with the ma manufacturing division , who have told me what 's actually available , you know , what the current state of the art in components is , and some of the exciting new things they 've got , but i 'm not sure that it 's quite what you want um . now this is n't a very good overhead , but this is just to show you , this is the innards of a remote control um . i really need a pen or something but uh does my mouse work ? no . um oh yeah , can you see my little mouse pointer ? project manager: mm . industrial designer: right . this is this is the a a a remote that 's been opened up project manager: mm . industrial designer: and that 's the the back of the interface . and this is a push-button one , so you see these little little buttons here , they 're little rubber rubber buttons that go through onto the the board at the back and they push these buttons here . um and we that 's the basic construction that we 've got to got to accommodate . we got to have something that pushes the little buttons that um talk to the chip that encodes the message that sends the the message to the receiver . so um i wan i wan na go through not not just addressing the um uh the the points that you made , sarah , but um doing my presentation in the order i wrote it . so first of all um i wan na talk about what possibilities we 've got for the energy source . marketing: industrial designer: um we can have your bog standard double double a_ batteries in a replaceable um little compartment . we can have a hand sorry user interface: a wind-up . marketing: industrial designer: a wind-up , yeah , which i think is quite an interesting concept for a sorry for a remote control , marketing: project manager: industrial designer: but i it maybe is does n't quite go with the um the fruit and veg . marketing: project manager: alright . industrial designer: um one that one that i think is quite interesting is the kinetic energy source , marketing: project manager: remember , we only have forty minutes industrial designer: where um you you actually get the energy by moving the device , marketing: mm . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: which is quite a ni a nice and neat one . you have to it means that if it 's sitting there for a long time it probably wo n't work , but you have to sort of throw it between your hands every now and then , it 'll work . user interface: industrial designer: or we we had talked about solar power , marketing: hmm . industrial designer: but i thing that we agreed that that 's not so good in the dark . project manager: mm . industrial designer: now i 'm afraid this is the options we 've got on on the case . it can be made of plastic , rubber , wood o if you like , or titanium . marketing: hmm . user interface: industrial designer: um and the nearest we 've got to st to spongy there i guess is rubber , but um i 'm gon na come back to the advantages of titanium , marketing: hmm . industrial designer: and basically it can have a flat surface , a curved surface or a double curved surface , but i think if we wan na use standard components , we 're gon na have difficulty with anything much beyond that . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: okay , what does the interface look like ? um well push button , that 's that 's the one we 're all familiar with . um we can have scroll buttons and the the scroll button can incorporate a push , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: so you can have it like on a mouse where you can use it to go up and down , change volume or channel or something like that and push to select something . um you can have multiple scroll buttons , um this is maybe getting a little bit complicated , but um it 's it the technology is there . and we can also incorporate an lcd display in the remote , but this will increase the cost . um the electronics that actually makes the device work , we 've basically got three , simple , regular , advanced , and the price goes up as we choose each of this . if we want the nice cheap one , the simple , then we can only have push buttons . all the other fancy interface designs go out the window , i 'm afraid . um pay a little bit more for a regular chip and you can have scroll buttons . if you want the advanced chip it obviously costs more , but it that 's what you need if you want the lcd display . and the manufacturing devision tell me that they have recently developed um sample sensor sample speaker devices . now i do n't know what that is , but i think they think it 's quite important and we might want to incorporate it somewhere . um ou our real expertise is in push buttons , i have to say , but maybe you think that 's old technology . marketing: mm . industrial designer: and well i i think we 've got two options . we can either go for a really cheap model , keep all of the costs down , um which means a flat plastic case with an ordinary battery and simple push buttons . or we can have something that looks a bit nicer , i think it , um wo n't necessarily l uh look like a pineapple , but um that may or may not be a good thing . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: sorry . um but it could have an lcd screen and it could have multiple scroll buttons , and it could have the the company 's new development of the um sample sensor and speaker . so , thank you . marketing: that sounds good . any idea you you mentioned that there would be a cost difference . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: um do you have any idea if if this could if the fancy model could be done in twelve euros fifty ? industrial designer: i 'm afraid i do n't have that information available . um manufacturing did n't actually give attach any prices to any of this , i 'm afraid . project manager: hmm . marketing: hmm . because , you know what , i 'm being quite serious when i say that that um the things i mentioned are hot . but i think the important thing might be to choose one . industrial designer: yeah mm-hmm . marketing: you know , if if what you 're telling me is is um some of these things are n't just f are n't feasible , maybe we could something about naming , we could call it , you know , blackberry . user interface: bear bear in mind it has to be the colours and styles of the company , marketing: that 's uh user interface: so what i had been thinking was something chunky and yellow and plastic with black buttons with a logo on it . industrial designer: banana ? marketing: alright , well let 's see then . user interface: but um i i do n't know how important that is to keep it exactly the colours of the real reaction company . marketing: yeah . user interface: it 's just what i 'd understood we 'd be doing . that 's before i heard about all this hot tips about the future , fruit-wise . marketing: yeah . but yeah , industrial designer: we we could we could do um a double curved rubber one , marketing: i 'm trying to streamline mine a little bit . industrial designer: which would allow um say a banana , but um unfortunately i see from my notes that if we do that , we have to have a push button as the interface , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: we ca n't do anything fancier . user interface: shall we wait 'til i 've 'til i 've showed you what well , my extensive presentation on what sort of interfaces are available . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yep . marketing: mm . thank you , kate . project manager: thank you , kate . marketing: mm . user interface: you did seem to include just in more detail what i 've got though . so so mine 's a bit pointless . right . industrial designer: user interface: f_n_ and f_ eight , did you say ? project manager: yes . there we go . industrial designer: user interface: i do n't have it on mine though . marketing: oh i think um florence resolved it by industrial designer: i if you do f_ uh f_n_ f_ eight again , it 's it 'll project manager: do it again . marketing: f_ eight again . project manager: keep doing it until you get it in both you get it there , you get it yours without that one , industrial designer: i think it yeah , you you will do an project manager: and then you get it with both . user interface: should i do it again ? project manager: yeah . marketing: maybe . industrial designer: project manager: this time it should come up both . user interface: right then . i do n't actually have a huge amount of different information then what kate says , project manager: okay . user interface: just that my method was to look at the , well , my my inspirations , which was a big collection of lots of different models of remote controls and other things that use a similar sort of thing , including m_p_ three players , uh like you know , hi-fi remotes , not just television and these things . project manager: mm-hmm . mm . user interface: uh having a think about the feature of ea the features of each ones , um what functions we actually need , and then how to group and arrange these on the actual the actual plastic or rubber hand-held piece . uh i 've been especially interested in the ipod style scroll wheel , which well , i could n't find a the picture of the ipod w only linked to a web browser , so i could n't copy and paste it , but it had a similar thing to this thing on the right . it has uh scroll wheels without without a display , but they they scroll like a computer mouse . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: so i was thinking that uh um a really simple a really simple interface with just a couple of scroll things on it um and then instead of a display the display could appear on the television screen . like i guess an existing sky or cable one does . like , you know , you press enter and it comes up with what 's showing on that channel at the moment , and you can do you can scroll along and it 'll show you what 's on in the next half hour , and you scroll up marketing: user interface: and you can see what 's on the other channels while you 're watching the same channel on the screen . uh but i 'm also equally taken with this chunky plastic kiddie remote , marketing: mm . user interface: um which is really nice and fun and good to hold and nice , big , easy buttons to press , but still quite simple and quite cost effective . so project manager: user interface: what seems kind of ideal for me would be to just have a fairly simple , uh not fancy but not totally minimalist , i mean just pretty simple plastic , probably , i was thinking , yellow and black , just because that 's the company 's colours , with very very few buttons , but that would correspond to a screen that would appear on the television screen , like , you know , just small along the bottom instead of instead of having the ipod style display screen on the actual remotes , which is far too expensive . project manager: mm . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: and when you 've got a screen sitting there in front of you , you might as well have it appearing uh on the screen in front of you , it does n't obscure much of the actual picture you 're watching . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and so on that you can , just much in the same way as an existing sky remote , scroll along , scroll up and down . industrial designer: yeah , i 'd i 'd certainly support that idea . user interface: and uh and i definitely support uh the use of plastic and or rubber . i mean titanium would be great , but i think it might be a bit too expensive and too kinda spacey . if we 're k trying to keep it colourful and slightly organic , then i think titanium 's too futuristic . industrial designer: it 's difficult to make fancy shapes in it as well , we ca n't for example have a double curved case in titanium unfortunately . user interface: yeah . whereas a plastic 's so cheap and easy and mouldable and everything else . industrial designer: marketing: hmm . user interface: uh then industrial designer: and the the having the the the screen on the television screen i think is a good idea , 'cause um otherwise we 're we 're putting up the price not only for putting building the lcd in , but for the electronics as well . user interface: and it 's a little bit pointless as well i think . industrial designer: there is that . user interface: like when when when you 've got when you 've got the screen there , it does n't have to be anything fancy , marketing: it 's a duplication . user interface: just a little menu showing yeah , a menu , you go into one menu and then it can have your different options , whether you wan na change the settings or the you know , your information about programme that 's on at the moment . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i do n't think that 's to taxing to uh s engineer . um . but as for actually arranging them let me go back to the to the picture of the kiddie one . and i quite like it , 'cause it 's just smooth and hand-held and it 's got these easily reachable buttons that quite nicely uh spaced out , so something a bit like that with buttons arranged in a kind of circle . up , down , left , right . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: do you want scroll buttons in that as well ? user interface: i i was thinking not actually scroll , like a like mouse scroll , but you know , a i ca n't quite d uh describe it . you see on the one on the right , down at the bottom , is the mouse . yeah , see where the mouse is , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: like this s style thing where you c have up , down , left and right . and enter in the middle , industrial designer: right . user interface: so you pick your menu and then your different options and when when you click on each one , it you can go into a new menu for that . i 'm getting a bit uh specific here . marketing: user interface: really we 'd have to use something to show you , industrial designer: yeah . i think i think that 's a g nice clean design , user interface: but industrial designer: it 's playing to our strengths which are in push button technology . marketing: to uh m make it . user interface: if i do n't think i can get it up on the screen . ah here we go . right . marketing: oh nice . user interface: well , marketing: um hmm . user interface: the ipod spinning wheel is uh really complicated . project manager: huh . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: it does scroll , but it is hugely complicated . what else have we got ? marketing: mm . wow . user interface: them , they 're terrible . but they all have this this feature of this uh it 's not quite a scroll wheel , but it 's a kind of selection in this circle , project manager: it 's a selection wheel . user interface: which i think is a really good idea . industrial designer: but we can implement it with simple push buttons , which is much cheaper . user interface: yeah , like up , down , left and right . which is good . and then and then yeah , so i mean either a channel up and down , volume up and down , next appearing programmes up and down , uh and then also when you get into the different menus on the screen , it 's got your things like settings and contrast up and down . project manager: okay . user interface: so all you really need is these four buttons with the enter in the middle . project manager: okay . user interface: and that 's it . industrial designer: in fact user interface: look at look at this one . industrial designer: oh that 's really nice . user interface: almost impossible to misplace or l or lose . project manager: marketing: do you think with um project manager: user interface: might take up your whole living room . marketing: it seems that that uh you guys are quite keen on the plastic , perhaps the something reminiscent of the child 's remote . do you think we could put it in a in a fruit colour ? and have it abstract . you know , user interface: possibly . marketing: we could call like a fruit name , industrial designer: hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: but it would be a little more abstract . industrial designer: mm . we we could actually do it in rubber instead of plastic if you 'd rather if you feel if you like the spongy user interface: that also is possible . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: just marketing: i 'm just just throwing out ideas . project manager: or call it a or call it a banana and have it in yellow . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah . i 'm thinking maybe we need to be a little bit more abstract if the design constraints are so project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: uh just something else i need to bring to your attention is have you have you seen these on a remote ? this is actually the volume up and down , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but they both say v_ on them , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: which , when you first look at it , you expect that to be the down , because it looks like a downward pointing arrow , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: hmm . user interface: but it 's actually the v_ to indicate that it 's the volume , so uh we do need to avoid little ambiguities like these . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: nice . good point . user interface: but we would n't have a specific volume up and down . if we 're having the scroll wheel , then it 's gon na double up as all the other up and down functions . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: but then , that 's complicated . project manager: i wan na thank you all for all your presentations . we have about ten minutes left , in which time we have to make some decisions on the remote control concepts . um and i think you all have been self-stimulating of working together . um we need to come up with some specifics of the components , um the materials , things like making the decision on the energy um and the case and the interface type things . so let 's mm . right . they want us to decide what form of energy are we going to use , which the choices that we 've discussed were pretty much battery , kinetic or solar . um this is where kate 's expertise comes in , and our decision making will be a little bit guided by kate at this point . industrial designer: project manager: the you were saying that the kinetic would be useful , that is you just have to move it some and you 'd be able to use it um as opposed to a battery that you have to either put it in a recharger or um keep replacing the batteries . um or solar that you 'd have difficulty with it if it 's a dark day , that it 'll die on you , and no way to do it . that 's the day you wan na use the tv . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um so what 's our pleasure here , what would be the cost consequences of each of the three ? industrial designer: oh unfortunately i do n't have costing information . project manager: okay . industrial designer: i i in terms of workability , i i think the the two front-runners are the standard battery or the kinetic , project manager: mm 'kay . industrial designer: but i 'm sorry i do n't figures on the difference in cost . project manager: what 's the uh feelings of the group on the kinetic ? marketing: i 've used kinetic in terms of watches and it 's very very uh handy , you do n't even notice um that it 's there . user interface: it sounds great . i 've never come across it before , but it sounds fantastic . sounds like it could be g a really good economical marketing: it 's user interface: it would make the whole thing a lot lighter , more convenient . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: hmm . marketing: it could tie in with the fanciful design project manager: hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: as uh , you know , user interface: 'cause it 's really a quite attractive thought , marketing: throw the banana , you know , just got ta keep it moving . user interface: is n't it ? it 's like yeah , project manager: so the consensus seems to be use the kinetic if it 's at all possible . user interface: a good selling point . marketing: be user interface: but it does depend how much i mean how much it costs and how much more development and research it needs . project manager: it costs . mm . industrial designer: and and how much you do have to keep it moving , marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . industrial designer: 'cause i 'm conscious that watching tv can be quite a sed sedentary activity . marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: mm . marketing: but i could market that as a um as a a i was thinking actually a a cost saver down the road , in terms of battery , you know . user interface: do your exercises while you 're watching the tv . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: true , yeah , m more more environmentally friendly . user interface: yeah , that 's what i was thinking as well . marketing: mm-hmm . you know , project manager: yeah . marketing: kind of the project manager: thanks for the reminder for five minutes to finish , thanks . industrial designer: oh right , okay , project manager: um the next thing that they wanted us to do was look at chip on print as a decision . industrial designer: i 'd that that 's something i maybe should have covered . um chip on print is just a manufacturing technique project manager: oh . industrial designer: um and i would certainly recommend it , i think , because i 'm not sure i have an alternative . project manager: okay . user interface: project manager: what about the ca industrial designer: i i it it 's just the way that the the the uh th the way it 's ac it 's actually built project manager: yeah . oh , the way we uh-huh . industrial designer: and you you print onto the circuit board like you might print onto paper . project manager: oh , okay . um what about the case ? i think they 're talking there about do we want wood , plastic , titanium or rubber , industrial designer: project manager: and i think we 've discussed not having titanium . one , it 's too expensive , um and second , it wo n't do this double um curves . um we 've sort of eliminated wood . we said plastic or rubber . what 's the pleasure ? industrial designer: well if if sarah 's keen on a spongy feel , the the rubber that we 're talking about is the same as you have in those little stress balls , so it 's marketing: that 's exactly what i was thinking . i 'm sold . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: what about you ? user interface: do you not think it might need like a kind of a hard plastic inner shell with the actual delicate workings inside , and then a kind of spongy yeah , s thick spongy cover , marketing: mm . kind of like an internal egg . project manager: cover . user interface: so it feels like the whole thing 's spongy , but actually you 're not damaging anything by squeezing it . project manager: plastic inside . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because i mean you could just get carried away with the with the tac industrial designer: i 'd i 'd need to talk to manufacturing again about whether that 's actually possible , but i agree , it 's uh sounds like a nice idea if it is . user interface: yeah . well you do get a bit carried away with things that are tactile , you just wan na stroke them and squeeze them , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: marketing: and with sports on television . project manager: okay . user interface: and marketing: you know . project manager: um the next part they want is the user interface concept . industrial designer: i should i should r marketing: i su project manager: i 'm sorry to push you , but we only have a couple minutes to finish with . marketing: then i 'll just say i support either from a marketing point of view i support either decision that the designers make on that . project manager: okay , and it says interface . what type and what supplements ? user interface: just copy the one on the left . no um a scroll well , like four buttons , up , down , left and right with enter in the middle , that will correspond to a menu on the screen . industrial designer: which i think technically is just push button and uh i 'd certainly support that that user interface: yeah , industrial designer: that brings the cost down quite a lot user interface: i 'd like push buttons with industrial designer: and it 's something that we 're an ex the company 's an expert on . user interface: so push buttons project manager: okay , um that 's that . um this is gon na sound weird , but the next meeting starts in thirty minutes . whew . industrial designer: project manager: and they actually want a look and feel design , user interface design , you can look and see this as well as i can . marketing they want product evaluation . user interface: no , it 's still it 's still plugged in on mine actually . marketing: no we ca n't , actually . project manager: oh . oh my , i 'm sorry . marketing: that 's why i was looking over your shoulder project manager: oh , okay . sorry about that . missed that one . this ought to be fun trying to get this thing to work . ah , ta-da . industrial designer: user interface: now it 's gone again . project manager: ah . industrial designer: you know , i think the the company 's s next project should to design a better overhead device that switches immediately . project manager: yes , because i ca n't even see mine . next meeting starts in thirty minutes , user interface: oh yes . project manager: these are the individual actions . yeah , right . um the look and feel design is for kate , marketing: mm . project manager: uh steph gets the user interface design , you get product evaluation . um the two of you get to play with a pla modelling clay um to do a prototype . user interface: great . project manager: uh and everybody gets individual instructions in the usual way . marketing: sounds good . project manager: anything else we need to do ? user interface: i do n't think so . project manager: go to it . user interface: play-doh . project manager: and that 's the end of this meeting . that 's for her benefit . marketing: that 's really all i got , guys . industrial designer: { vocalsound }

this meeting was a conceptual design meeting . in this meeting , the group mainly discussed the component , energy source , buttons , colours and styles of the remote control . they decided to use the kinetic as the energy source because of its convenience , light weight , fancy design and the good selling point of the environment , but they still needed more cost research . they also reached a final consensus to apply a hard plastic inner shell with a spongy plastic for the component , and push buttons for the type of interface due to their common features of convenience and user-friendliness .

summarize the discussion about the user interfaceof the remote control . </s> project manager: hi kate . okay , carry on . industrial designer: just just carry on . project manager: alright um this is the beginning of the third meeting , the conceptual design meeting . um our agenda should be um that we 're opening the meeting , i have the minutes from the previous meeting are on the shared f drive at this point . um and we should each have a presentation to make . um we have certain decisions to make and we have forty minutes total . it 's twenty five after two at the moment , so forty minutes is five after three , um which i 'll be keeping an eye on the clock for us . okay . um there are the decisions we have to turn to , but we 'll come back to them in a minute after i take us to the minutes of the previous meeting . right um as we remember , i opened the meeting , the four of us were present , the meeting the first meeting 's minutes were reviewed and approved . um sarah , you presented a marketing research report um which pretty much rep represented that fifteen to thirty five year olds uh it has to be hand-held , power , channel , volume , number keys , possibly a speech recognition . and then steph did a second presentation um that those functions plus streamlining them with big user-friendly keys that were easy to use . i think all of us agreed with those things . kate presented a working design of going after going over the basics on the whiteboard um that it should be a simple mass-produced device , because of the twelve and a half pence cost . um but we did talk about possibly using rechargeable batteries and having a docking place as a selling point . um and the new requirements that it for be for tv only um and that it include the l so slogan and colour of the uh corporate design be included . um the corporate image . so we agreed that the target market would be fifteen to thirty five with more money than sense , that were decision makers . alternatively it would be a manufacturer to enclose it with the tv , but it still should meet those parameters . um and that the function we agreed was volume , power , numbers , enter , channels , a way to move between channels , easy to use and hand-held . um at that point we agreed that sarah would look at the current cost of competition , what what do the current ones sell for . um and steph was gon na look at ec ergonomics . kate was gon na look at cost and feasibility of the various possibilities that we discussed . and i was to type up these minutes and work on the final report . is this a fair presentation of what our last meeting was ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . project manager: okay . right . so we 're ready to close that and go back to our that one . right . we 're up to the point of the go back . um the three presentations . so we 're going to pull the plug on me and turn to sarah . is that okay ? is that alright with everybody else ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yep . project manager: especially since kate asked to be last . sarah , i 'm sorry if i misspelled your name , i did n't know whether it was s_a_r_a_ or s_a_r_h_ . marketing: i respond to either . project manager: you respond to whatever you get , huh ? marketing: no worries . project manager: okay . um , did you do your hit user interface: yeah , project manager: ah , there it is . ta-da . marketing: okay , first thing i want to address is um one of the points that florence brought up , which was uh current cost of the competition devices , similar to the ones that stephanie uh showed us and and they 're uh twenty to sixty euros , depending on uh branding . user interface: right . marketing: some of them that have a higher brand recognition are on the more expensive end . but i think that with the current um price that we 're searching for , we 're well within , even on the lower end , of the uh of the market . project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: but i 'm going to move on to more interesting um more vibrant things . so , i investigated the remote control market in greater detail , and my uh the theme of what i was to work on was uh trend watch . user interface: marketing: and project manager: 'kay . user interface: industrial designer: sorry . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: i 'm glad to see the marketing budget is being so well spent on . marketing: project manager: marketing: i know that you all are a distance from cutting edge marketing research , industrial designer: marketing: so you know , i 'm just gon na try to cloak it in really professional terms here . what 's hot , fruit and veg . spongy . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: and this is all over the catwalks , paris , milan , and i 'm talking about clothing , furniture , shoes . industrial designer: marketing: this is really interesting change from past years , project manager: mm . user interface: marketing: because it is much more organic , um some would say approachable . and i think if we 're to refashion our view of what we want in a remote control , we should perhaps think about incorporating technologically interesting fabrics and some of the bold colours into a simple handset . so . i also did a little research on um what again are the most important priorities in uh decision making about uh purchasing . fancy . functional is out . and f the fancy , and that 's exactly the term , i 'm i 'm thinking polished , elegant , you know , kind of innovative , but a cut above . this is twice as important as the next finding , which is technologically innovative . this is interesting , 'cause i think in the last meeting we were talking about technology as being so important , but maybe what 's innovative is having it simple with um with uh technologically superior fabrics or uh , you know , designed in interesting substances . ease of use . again , pretty low , i mean it 's the top three , but each of the uh fancy and technologically innovative are far more important . so i think we should cloak the streamlined remote control device in a series of fruit fruit themed sleeves . user interface: industrial designer: i think that 's a good idea . do n't you ? marketing: y yeah , you know project manager: it sounds like the the uh covers that they use for the remote , you know , your t your cell phone . user interface: yes . marketing: exactly . exactly . i was thinking though that instead of having something uh like patterned , you know , so , you know , something similar to a summer dress . you know , it would have like fruit and veg , is that we actually make these spongy . project manager: mm . marketing: they could be ini initially i thought we could start with kind of um fruit that would suit kind of uh a long uh hand-held , so banana , pineapple and pear . um it could actually the sleeve could take up a lot of the development and the remote control , we 'd just need to get reductionist on it . user interface: marketing: they could be interchangeable , they 're spongy , that goes back to ergonomic , and the youngsters love 'em , fun for the whole family , everyone can have their own . so what we 're talking about is changing . this concept . everyone has a tv remote , but then we add in the fact that they could each have their own individual fruit . user interface: marketing: that 's what 's hot on the catwalks . so , this is my this is what i 'm thinking . project manager: hmm . user interface: project manager: uh-huh mm . in most families , do n't is n't the remote is a remote . marketing: y yeah , but i think i think what this would allow is perhaps a person in the family who had the most opinion about it we all need a remote , project manager: mm . marketing: but the person who is really perhaps active in personalising , i 'm thinking the teenager , the someone fifteen to thirty five would go out and get this additional thing the same way as you mentioned that people would get the cell phone covers . user interface: so when your dad 's sitting there , overriding your decision , going no we 're gon na watch this , you can bring out your own remote and be like zap , no we 're gon na watch this . marketing: yeah . w and plus i think project manager: mm . well actually some households do have three and four tvs marketing: uh yeah . user interface: project manager: and they would have a remote for each one , marketing: yeah . project manager: so . marketing: yeah . so this is an idea and i i you know , this is exactly what the research has uh has shown . so i really open this up to uh any other feedback . this spongy fruit and veg . industrial designer: yeah , i i think we 're gon na have some trouble when we get down to the component design on this . marketing: thanks . alright . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: spongy is gon na be difficult , i 'm afraid . user interface: yep . and as for as for um well budgeting as well , if we 're gon na have lots of different interchangeable components . project manager: hmm . marketing: i i just have my ear to the market , guys . user interface: is this to the market ? industrial designer: yeah , i mean basically we can make these things out of wood , titanium , plastic or rubber . i suppose rubber is the closest to spongy , marketing: is spongiest , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that would add industrial designer: i was thinking titanium myself . user interface: i was thinking titanium , i was thinking it 's just i have been influenced by pictures of ipods , and they 're also minimalist and shiny . marketing: mm-hmm . they are and they they would fulfil the uh first um priority , which is fancy . i think many of us would associate those with fancy . something else we could do is uh call it something that 's fruit and veg oriented . we could call it uh the name . project manager: are we talking about the device itself or the c or a cover for the device that would be an interchangeable cov cover as a separate product ? marketing: well it would be uh a a very simple product that would have a spongy sleeve that would be interchangeable . so project manager: perhaps perhaps that desi that particular suggestion needs to go back to management user interface: yeah , but it 's kind of pointless , is n't it ? project manager: and perhaps go to another group to actually design as a separate product . user interface: yeah . marketing: that , you know , that might be user interface: let 's delegate . project manager: wo would that be agreeable ? marketing: and then we could keep it titanium . industrial designer: yeah . w w would it be helpful if um i described the components a bit , because i think it would give you um maybe bring this discussion back to earth of what we can actually physically do . user interface: yeah , maybe . or project manager: do you wan na be next or you want kate to go next ? user interface: i think possibly it might be more useful if kate went next . project manager: okay , we 'll move the user interface: um industrial designer: user interface: you can even have them in different flavours as well . so that if you just wan na sit there and chew on the remote , it could be like pear flavour , marketing: yeah . or s or smelly . scratchy user interface: yeah . scratch and sniff . marketing: uh well i was really thinking a lot about the i_ uh the imac kind of gel gem tone . industrial designer: right , well marketing: it 's hot on the streets , guys . industrial designer: i i i think some of this um user interface: industrial designer: you 're gon na be a little disappointed with some of the things i have to tell you , but i 'm afraid this is the real world . so um i 've been looking at the the basics of how these devices actually have to work in order to operate , and i 've had some discussions with the ma manufacturing division , who have told me what 's actually available , you know , what the current state of the art in components is , and some of the exciting new things they 've got , but i 'm not sure that it 's quite what you want um . now this is n't a very good overhead , but this is just to show you , this is the innards of a remote control um . i really need a pen or something but uh does my mouse work ? no . um oh yeah , can you see my little mouse pointer ? project manager: mm . industrial designer: right . this is this is the a a a remote that 's been opened up project manager: mm . industrial designer: and that 's the the back of the interface . and this is a push-button one , so you see these little little buttons here , they 're little rubber rubber buttons that go through onto the the board at the back and they push these buttons here . um and we that 's the basic construction that we 've got to got to accommodate . we got to have something that pushes the little buttons that um talk to the chip that encodes the message that sends the the message to the receiver . so um i wan i wan na go through not not just addressing the um uh the the points that you made , sarah , but um doing my presentation in the order i wrote it . so first of all um i wan na talk about what possibilities we 've got for the energy source . marketing: industrial designer: um we can have your bog standard double double a_ batteries in a replaceable um little compartment . we can have a hand sorry user interface: a wind-up . marketing: industrial designer: a wind-up , yeah , which i think is quite an interesting concept for a sorry for a remote control , marketing: project manager: industrial designer: but i it maybe is does n't quite go with the um the fruit and veg . marketing: project manager: alright . industrial designer: um one that one that i think is quite interesting is the kinetic energy source , marketing: project manager: remember , we only have forty minutes industrial designer: where um you you actually get the energy by moving the device , marketing: mm . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: which is quite a ni a nice and neat one . you have to it means that if it 's sitting there for a long time it probably wo n't work , but you have to sort of throw it between your hands every now and then , it 'll work . user interface: industrial designer: or we we had talked about solar power , marketing: hmm . industrial designer: but i thing that we agreed that that 's not so good in the dark . project manager: mm . industrial designer: now i 'm afraid this is the options we 've got on on the case . it can be made of plastic , rubber , wood o if you like , or titanium . marketing: hmm . user interface: industrial designer: um and the nearest we 've got to st to spongy there i guess is rubber , but um i 'm gon na come back to the advantages of titanium , marketing: hmm . industrial designer: and basically it can have a flat surface , a curved surface or a double curved surface , but i think if we wan na use standard components , we 're gon na have difficulty with anything much beyond that . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: okay , what does the interface look like ? um well push button , that 's that 's the one we 're all familiar with . um we can have scroll buttons and the the scroll button can incorporate a push , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: so you can have it like on a mouse where you can use it to go up and down , change volume or channel or something like that and push to select something . um you can have multiple scroll buttons , um this is maybe getting a little bit complicated , but um it 's it the technology is there . and we can also incorporate an lcd display in the remote , but this will increase the cost . um the electronics that actually makes the device work , we 've basically got three , simple , regular , advanced , and the price goes up as we choose each of this . if we want the nice cheap one , the simple , then we can only have push buttons . all the other fancy interface designs go out the window , i 'm afraid . um pay a little bit more for a regular chip and you can have scroll buttons . if you want the advanced chip it obviously costs more , but it that 's what you need if you want the lcd display . and the manufacturing devision tell me that they have recently developed um sample sensor sample speaker devices . now i do n't know what that is , but i think they think it 's quite important and we might want to incorporate it somewhere . um ou our real expertise is in push buttons , i have to say , but maybe you think that 's old technology . marketing: mm . industrial designer: and well i i think we 've got two options . we can either go for a really cheap model , keep all of the costs down , um which means a flat plastic case with an ordinary battery and simple push buttons . or we can have something that looks a bit nicer , i think it , um wo n't necessarily l uh look like a pineapple , but um that may or may not be a good thing . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: sorry . um but it could have an lcd screen and it could have multiple scroll buttons , and it could have the the company 's new development of the um sample sensor and speaker . so , thank you . marketing: that sounds good . any idea you you mentioned that there would be a cost difference . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: um do you have any idea if if this could if the fancy model could be done in twelve euros fifty ? industrial designer: i 'm afraid i do n't have that information available . um manufacturing did n't actually give attach any prices to any of this , i 'm afraid . project manager: hmm . marketing: hmm . because , you know what , i 'm being quite serious when i say that that um the things i mentioned are hot . but i think the important thing might be to choose one . industrial designer: yeah mm-hmm . marketing: you know , if if what you 're telling me is is um some of these things are n't just f are n't feasible , maybe we could something about naming , we could call it , you know , blackberry . user interface: bear bear in mind it has to be the colours and styles of the company , marketing: that 's uh user interface: so what i had been thinking was something chunky and yellow and plastic with black buttons with a logo on it . industrial designer: banana ? marketing: alright , well let 's see then . user interface: but um i i do n't know how important that is to keep it exactly the colours of the real reaction company . marketing: yeah . user interface: it 's just what i 'd understood we 'd be doing . that 's before i heard about all this hot tips about the future , fruit-wise . marketing: yeah . but yeah , industrial designer: we we could we could do um a double curved rubber one , marketing: i 'm trying to streamline mine a little bit . industrial designer: which would allow um say a banana , but um unfortunately i see from my notes that if we do that , we have to have a push button as the interface , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: we ca n't do anything fancier . user interface: shall we wait 'til i 've 'til i 've showed you what well , my extensive presentation on what sort of interfaces are available . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yep . marketing: mm . thank you , kate . project manager: thank you , kate . marketing: mm . user interface: you did seem to include just in more detail what i 've got though . so so mine 's a bit pointless . right . industrial designer: user interface: f_n_ and f_ eight , did you say ? project manager: yes . there we go . industrial designer: user interface: i do n't have it on mine though . marketing: oh i think um florence resolved it by industrial designer: i if you do f_ uh f_n_ f_ eight again , it 's it 'll project manager: do it again . marketing: f_ eight again . project manager: keep doing it until you get it in both you get it there , you get it yours without that one , industrial designer: i think it yeah , you you will do an project manager: and then you get it with both . user interface: should i do it again ? project manager: yeah . marketing: maybe . industrial designer: project manager: this time it should come up both . user interface: right then . i do n't actually have a huge amount of different information then what kate says , project manager: okay . user interface: just that my method was to look at the , well , my my inspirations , which was a big collection of lots of different models of remote controls and other things that use a similar sort of thing , including m_p_ three players , uh like you know , hi-fi remotes , not just television and these things . project manager: mm-hmm . mm . user interface: uh having a think about the feature of ea the features of each ones , um what functions we actually need , and then how to group and arrange these on the actual the actual plastic or rubber hand-held piece . uh i 've been especially interested in the ipod style scroll wheel , which well , i could n't find a the picture of the ipod w only linked to a web browser , so i could n't copy and paste it , but it had a similar thing to this thing on the right . it has uh scroll wheels without without a display , but they they scroll like a computer mouse . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: so i was thinking that uh um a really simple a really simple interface with just a couple of scroll things on it um and then instead of a display the display could appear on the television screen . like i guess an existing sky or cable one does . like , you know , you press enter and it comes up with what 's showing on that channel at the moment , and you can do you can scroll along and it 'll show you what 's on in the next half hour , and you scroll up marketing: user interface: and you can see what 's on the other channels while you 're watching the same channel on the screen . uh but i 'm also equally taken with this chunky plastic kiddie remote , marketing: mm . user interface: um which is really nice and fun and good to hold and nice , big , easy buttons to press , but still quite simple and quite cost effective . so project manager: user interface: what seems kind of ideal for me would be to just have a fairly simple , uh not fancy but not totally minimalist , i mean just pretty simple plastic , probably , i was thinking , yellow and black , just because that 's the company 's colours , with very very few buttons , but that would correspond to a screen that would appear on the television screen , like , you know , just small along the bottom instead of instead of having the ipod style display screen on the actual remotes , which is far too expensive . project manager: mm . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: and when you 've got a screen sitting there in front of you , you might as well have it appearing uh on the screen in front of you , it does n't obscure much of the actual picture you 're watching . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and so on that you can , just much in the same way as an existing sky remote , scroll along , scroll up and down . industrial designer: yeah , i 'd i 'd certainly support that idea . user interface: and uh and i definitely support uh the use of plastic and or rubber . i mean titanium would be great , but i think it might be a bit too expensive and too kinda spacey . if we 're k trying to keep it colourful and slightly organic , then i think titanium 's too futuristic . industrial designer: it 's difficult to make fancy shapes in it as well , we ca n't for example have a double curved case in titanium unfortunately . user interface: yeah . whereas a plastic 's so cheap and easy and mouldable and everything else . industrial designer: marketing: hmm . user interface: uh then industrial designer: and the the having the the the screen on the television screen i think is a good idea , 'cause um otherwise we 're we 're putting up the price not only for putting building the lcd in , but for the electronics as well . user interface: and it 's a little bit pointless as well i think . industrial designer: there is that . user interface: like when when when you 've got when you 've got the screen there , it does n't have to be anything fancy , marketing: it 's a duplication . user interface: just a little menu showing yeah , a menu , you go into one menu and then it can have your different options , whether you wan na change the settings or the you know , your information about programme that 's on at the moment . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i do n't think that 's to taxing to uh s engineer . um . but as for actually arranging them let me go back to the to the picture of the kiddie one . and i quite like it , 'cause it 's just smooth and hand-held and it 's got these easily reachable buttons that quite nicely uh spaced out , so something a bit like that with buttons arranged in a kind of circle . up , down , left , right . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: do you want scroll buttons in that as well ? user interface: i i was thinking not actually scroll , like a like mouse scroll , but you know , a i ca n't quite d uh describe it . you see on the one on the right , down at the bottom , is the mouse . yeah , see where the mouse is , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: like this s style thing where you c have up , down , left and right . and enter in the middle , industrial designer: right . user interface: so you pick your menu and then your different options and when when you click on each one , it you can go into a new menu for that . i 'm getting a bit uh specific here . marketing: user interface: really we 'd have to use something to show you , industrial designer: yeah . i think i think that 's a g nice clean design , user interface: but industrial designer: it 's playing to our strengths which are in push button technology . marketing: to uh m make it . user interface: if i do n't think i can get it up on the screen . ah here we go . right . marketing: oh nice . user interface: well , marketing: um hmm . user interface: the ipod spinning wheel is uh really complicated . project manager: huh . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: it does scroll , but it is hugely complicated . what else have we got ? marketing: mm . wow . user interface: them , they 're terrible . but they all have this this feature of this uh it 's not quite a scroll wheel , but it 's a kind of selection in this circle , project manager: it 's a selection wheel . user interface: which i think is a really good idea . industrial designer: but we can implement it with simple push buttons , which is much cheaper . user interface: yeah , like up , down , left and right . which is good . and then and then yeah , so i mean either a channel up and down , volume up and down , next appearing programmes up and down , uh and then also when you get into the different menus on the screen , it 's got your things like settings and contrast up and down . project manager: okay . user interface: so all you really need is these four buttons with the enter in the middle . project manager: okay . user interface: and that 's it . industrial designer: in fact user interface: look at look at this one . industrial designer: oh that 's really nice . user interface: almost impossible to misplace or l or lose . project manager: marketing: do you think with um project manager: user interface: might take up your whole living room . marketing: it seems that that uh you guys are quite keen on the plastic , perhaps the something reminiscent of the child 's remote . do you think we could put it in a in a fruit colour ? and have it abstract . you know , user interface: possibly . marketing: we could call like a fruit name , industrial designer: hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: but it would be a little more abstract . industrial designer: mm . we we could actually do it in rubber instead of plastic if you 'd rather if you feel if you like the spongy user interface: that also is possible . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: just marketing: i 'm just just throwing out ideas . project manager: or call it a or call it a banana and have it in yellow . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah . i 'm thinking maybe we need to be a little bit more abstract if the design constraints are so project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: uh just something else i need to bring to your attention is have you have you seen these on a remote ? this is actually the volume up and down , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but they both say v_ on them , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: which , when you first look at it , you expect that to be the down , because it looks like a downward pointing arrow , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: hmm . user interface: but it 's actually the v_ to indicate that it 's the volume , so uh we do need to avoid little ambiguities like these . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: nice . good point . user interface: but we would n't have a specific volume up and down . if we 're having the scroll wheel , then it 's gon na double up as all the other up and down functions . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: but then , that 's complicated . project manager: i wan na thank you all for all your presentations . we have about ten minutes left , in which time we have to make some decisions on the remote control concepts . um and i think you all have been self-stimulating of working together . um we need to come up with some specifics of the components , um the materials , things like making the decision on the energy um and the case and the interface type things . so let 's mm . right . they want us to decide what form of energy are we going to use , which the choices that we 've discussed were pretty much battery , kinetic or solar . um this is where kate 's expertise comes in , and our decision making will be a little bit guided by kate at this point . industrial designer: project manager: the you were saying that the kinetic would be useful , that is you just have to move it some and you 'd be able to use it um as opposed to a battery that you have to either put it in a recharger or um keep replacing the batteries . um or solar that you 'd have difficulty with it if it 's a dark day , that it 'll die on you , and no way to do it . that 's the day you wan na use the tv . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um so what 's our pleasure here , what would be the cost consequences of each of the three ? industrial designer: oh unfortunately i do n't have costing information . project manager: okay . industrial designer: i i in terms of workability , i i think the the two front-runners are the standard battery or the kinetic , project manager: mm 'kay . industrial designer: but i 'm sorry i do n't figures on the difference in cost . project manager: what 's the uh feelings of the group on the kinetic ? marketing: i 've used kinetic in terms of watches and it 's very very uh handy , you do n't even notice um that it 's there . user interface: it sounds great . i 've never come across it before , but it sounds fantastic . sounds like it could be g a really good economical marketing: it 's user interface: it would make the whole thing a lot lighter , more convenient . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: hmm . marketing: it could tie in with the fanciful design project manager: hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: as uh , you know , user interface: 'cause it 's really a quite attractive thought , marketing: throw the banana , you know , just got ta keep it moving . user interface: is n't it ? it 's like yeah , project manager: so the consensus seems to be use the kinetic if it 's at all possible . user interface: a good selling point . marketing: be user interface: but it does depend how much i mean how much it costs and how much more development and research it needs . project manager: it costs . mm . industrial designer: and and how much you do have to keep it moving , marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . industrial designer: 'cause i 'm conscious that watching tv can be quite a sed sedentary activity . marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: mm . marketing: but i could market that as a um as a a i was thinking actually a a cost saver down the road , in terms of battery , you know . user interface: do your exercises while you 're watching the tv . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: true , yeah , m more more environmentally friendly . user interface: yeah , that 's what i was thinking as well . marketing: mm-hmm . you know , project manager: yeah . marketing: kind of the project manager: thanks for the reminder for five minutes to finish , thanks . industrial designer: oh right , okay , project manager: um the next thing that they wanted us to do was look at chip on print as a decision . industrial designer: i 'd that that 's something i maybe should have covered . um chip on print is just a manufacturing technique project manager: oh . industrial designer: um and i would certainly recommend it , i think , because i 'm not sure i have an alternative . project manager: okay . user interface: project manager: what about the ca industrial designer: i i it it 's just the way that the the the uh th the way it 's ac it 's actually built project manager: yeah . oh , the way we uh-huh . industrial designer: and you you print onto the circuit board like you might print onto paper . project manager: oh , okay . um what about the case ? i think they 're talking there about do we want wood , plastic , titanium or rubber , industrial designer: project manager: and i think we 've discussed not having titanium . one , it 's too expensive , um and second , it wo n't do this double um curves . um we 've sort of eliminated wood . we said plastic or rubber . what 's the pleasure ? industrial designer: well if if sarah 's keen on a spongy feel , the the rubber that we 're talking about is the same as you have in those little stress balls , so it 's marketing: that 's exactly what i was thinking . i 'm sold . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: what about you ? user interface: do you not think it might need like a kind of a hard plastic inner shell with the actual delicate workings inside , and then a kind of spongy yeah , s thick spongy cover , marketing: mm . kind of like an internal egg . project manager: cover . user interface: so it feels like the whole thing 's spongy , but actually you 're not damaging anything by squeezing it . project manager: plastic inside . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because i mean you could just get carried away with the with the tac industrial designer: i 'd i 'd need to talk to manufacturing again about whether that 's actually possible , but i agree , it 's uh sounds like a nice idea if it is . user interface: yeah . well you do get a bit carried away with things that are tactile , you just wan na stroke them and squeeze them , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: marketing: and with sports on television . project manager: okay . user interface: and marketing: you know . project manager: um the next part they want is the user interface concept . industrial designer: i should i should r marketing: i su project manager: i 'm sorry to push you , but we only have a couple minutes to finish with . marketing: then i 'll just say i support either from a marketing point of view i support either decision that the designers make on that . project manager: okay , and it says interface . what type and what supplements ? user interface: just copy the one on the left . no um a scroll well , like four buttons , up , down , left and right with enter in the middle , that will correspond to a menu on the screen . industrial designer: which i think technically is just push button and uh i 'd certainly support that that user interface: yeah , industrial designer: that brings the cost down quite a lot user interface: i 'd like push buttons with industrial designer: and it 's something that we 're an ex the company 's an expert on . user interface: so push buttons project manager: okay , um that 's that . um this is gon na sound weird , but the next meeting starts in thirty minutes . whew . industrial designer: project manager: and they actually want a look and feel design , user interface design , you can look and see this as well as i can . marketing they want product evaluation . user interface: no , it 's still it 's still plugged in on mine actually . marketing: no we ca n't , actually . project manager: oh . oh my , i 'm sorry . marketing: that 's why i was looking over your shoulder project manager: oh , okay . sorry about that . missed that one . this ought to be fun trying to get this thing to work . ah , ta-da . industrial designer: user interface: now it 's gone again . project manager: ah . industrial designer: you know , i think the the company 's s next project should to design a better overhead device that switches immediately . project manager: yes , because i ca n't even see mine . next meeting starts in thirty minutes , user interface: oh yes . project manager: these are the individual actions . yeah , right . um the look and feel design is for kate , marketing: mm . project manager: uh steph gets the user interface design , you get product evaluation . um the two of you get to play with a pla modelling clay um to do a prototype . user interface: great . project manager: uh and everybody gets individual instructions in the usual way . marketing: sounds good . project manager: anything else we need to do ? user interface: i do n't think so . project manager: go to it . user interface: play-doh . project manager: and that 's the end of this meeting . that 's for her benefit . marketing: that 's really all i got , guys . industrial designer: { vocalsound }

user interface suggested a simple plastic remote control in yellow and black with few big buttons which could correspond to a screen on the television screen . but this idea of having a screen on the television screen was faced by industrial designer 's objection . industrial designer preferred scroll buttons , and a simple but functional menu on the screen , and simple push buttons . in the end , they chose a push button for better feasibility .

why did user interface disagree with industrial designer when talking about having the screen on the television screen ? </s> project manager: hi kate . okay , carry on . industrial designer: just just carry on . project manager: alright um this is the beginning of the third meeting , the conceptual design meeting . um our agenda should be um that we 're opening the meeting , i have the minutes from the previous meeting are on the shared f drive at this point . um and we should each have a presentation to make . um we have certain decisions to make and we have forty minutes total . it 's twenty five after two at the moment , so forty minutes is five after three , um which i 'll be keeping an eye on the clock for us . okay . um there are the decisions we have to turn to , but we 'll come back to them in a minute after i take us to the minutes of the previous meeting . right um as we remember , i opened the meeting , the four of us were present , the meeting the first meeting 's minutes were reviewed and approved . um sarah , you presented a marketing research report um which pretty much rep represented that fifteen to thirty five year olds uh it has to be hand-held , power , channel , volume , number keys , possibly a speech recognition . and then steph did a second presentation um that those functions plus streamlining them with big user-friendly keys that were easy to use . i think all of us agreed with those things . kate presented a working design of going after going over the basics on the whiteboard um that it should be a simple mass-produced device , because of the twelve and a half pence cost . um but we did talk about possibly using rechargeable batteries and having a docking place as a selling point . um and the new requirements that it for be for tv only um and that it include the l so slogan and colour of the uh corporate design be included . um the corporate image . so we agreed that the target market would be fifteen to thirty five with more money than sense , that were decision makers . alternatively it would be a manufacturer to enclose it with the tv , but it still should meet those parameters . um and that the function we agreed was volume , power , numbers , enter , channels , a way to move between channels , easy to use and hand-held . um at that point we agreed that sarah would look at the current cost of competition , what what do the current ones sell for . um and steph was gon na look at ec ergonomics . kate was gon na look at cost and feasibility of the various possibilities that we discussed . and i was to type up these minutes and work on the final report . is this a fair presentation of what our last meeting was ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . project manager: okay . right . so we 're ready to close that and go back to our that one . right . we 're up to the point of the go back . um the three presentations . so we 're going to pull the plug on me and turn to sarah . is that okay ? is that alright with everybody else ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yep . project manager: especially since kate asked to be last . sarah , i 'm sorry if i misspelled your name , i did n't know whether it was s_a_r_a_ or s_a_r_h_ . marketing: i respond to either . project manager: you respond to whatever you get , huh ? marketing: no worries . project manager: okay . um , did you do your hit user interface: yeah , project manager: ah , there it is . ta-da . marketing: okay , first thing i want to address is um one of the points that florence brought up , which was uh current cost of the competition devices , similar to the ones that stephanie uh showed us and and they 're uh twenty to sixty euros , depending on uh branding . user interface: right . marketing: some of them that have a higher brand recognition are on the more expensive end . but i think that with the current um price that we 're searching for , we 're well within , even on the lower end , of the uh of the market . project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: but i 'm going to move on to more interesting um more vibrant things . so , i investigated the remote control market in greater detail , and my uh the theme of what i was to work on was uh trend watch . user interface: marketing: and project manager: 'kay . user interface: industrial designer: sorry . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: i 'm glad to see the marketing budget is being so well spent on . marketing: project manager: marketing: i know that you all are a distance from cutting edge marketing research , industrial designer: marketing: so you know , i 'm just gon na try to cloak it in really professional terms here . what 's hot , fruit and veg . spongy . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: and this is all over the catwalks , paris , milan , and i 'm talking about clothing , furniture , shoes . industrial designer: marketing: this is really interesting change from past years , project manager: mm . user interface: marketing: because it is much more organic , um some would say approachable . and i think if we 're to refashion our view of what we want in a remote control , we should perhaps think about incorporating technologically interesting fabrics and some of the bold colours into a simple handset . so . i also did a little research on um what again are the most important priorities in uh decision making about uh purchasing . fancy . functional is out . and f the fancy , and that 's exactly the term , i 'm i 'm thinking polished , elegant , you know , kind of innovative , but a cut above . this is twice as important as the next finding , which is technologically innovative . this is interesting , 'cause i think in the last meeting we were talking about technology as being so important , but maybe what 's innovative is having it simple with um with uh technologically superior fabrics or uh , you know , designed in interesting substances . ease of use . again , pretty low , i mean it 's the top three , but each of the uh fancy and technologically innovative are far more important . so i think we should cloak the streamlined remote control device in a series of fruit fruit themed sleeves . user interface: industrial designer: i think that 's a good idea . do n't you ? marketing: y yeah , you know project manager: it sounds like the the uh covers that they use for the remote , you know , your t your cell phone . user interface: yes . marketing: exactly . exactly . i was thinking though that instead of having something uh like patterned , you know , so , you know , something similar to a summer dress . you know , it would have like fruit and veg , is that we actually make these spongy . project manager: mm . marketing: they could be ini initially i thought we could start with kind of um fruit that would suit kind of uh a long uh hand-held , so banana , pineapple and pear . um it could actually the sleeve could take up a lot of the development and the remote control , we 'd just need to get reductionist on it . user interface: marketing: they could be interchangeable , they 're spongy , that goes back to ergonomic , and the youngsters love 'em , fun for the whole family , everyone can have their own . so what we 're talking about is changing . this concept . everyone has a tv remote , but then we add in the fact that they could each have their own individual fruit . user interface: marketing: that 's what 's hot on the catwalks . so , this is my this is what i 'm thinking . project manager: hmm . user interface: project manager: uh-huh mm . in most families , do n't is n't the remote is a remote . marketing: y yeah , but i think i think what this would allow is perhaps a person in the family who had the most opinion about it we all need a remote , project manager: mm . marketing: but the person who is really perhaps active in personalising , i 'm thinking the teenager , the someone fifteen to thirty five would go out and get this additional thing the same way as you mentioned that people would get the cell phone covers . user interface: so when your dad 's sitting there , overriding your decision , going no we 're gon na watch this , you can bring out your own remote and be like zap , no we 're gon na watch this . marketing: yeah . w and plus i think project manager: mm . well actually some households do have three and four tvs marketing: uh yeah . user interface: project manager: and they would have a remote for each one , marketing: yeah . project manager: so . marketing: yeah . so this is an idea and i i you know , this is exactly what the research has uh has shown . so i really open this up to uh any other feedback . this spongy fruit and veg . industrial designer: yeah , i i think we 're gon na have some trouble when we get down to the component design on this . marketing: thanks . alright . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: spongy is gon na be difficult , i 'm afraid . user interface: yep . and as for as for um well budgeting as well , if we 're gon na have lots of different interchangeable components . project manager: hmm . marketing: i i just have my ear to the market , guys . user interface: is this to the market ? industrial designer: yeah , i mean basically we can make these things out of wood , titanium , plastic or rubber . i suppose rubber is the closest to spongy , marketing: is spongiest , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that would add industrial designer: i was thinking titanium myself . user interface: i was thinking titanium , i was thinking it 's just i have been influenced by pictures of ipods , and they 're also minimalist and shiny . marketing: mm-hmm . they are and they they would fulfil the uh first um priority , which is fancy . i think many of us would associate those with fancy . something else we could do is uh call it something that 's fruit and veg oriented . we could call it uh the name . project manager: are we talking about the device itself or the c or a cover for the device that would be an interchangeable cov cover as a separate product ? marketing: well it would be uh a a very simple product that would have a spongy sleeve that would be interchangeable . so project manager: perhaps perhaps that desi that particular suggestion needs to go back to management user interface: yeah , but it 's kind of pointless , is n't it ? project manager: and perhaps go to another group to actually design as a separate product . user interface: yeah . marketing: that , you know , that might be user interface: let 's delegate . project manager: wo would that be agreeable ? marketing: and then we could keep it titanium . industrial designer: yeah . w w would it be helpful if um i described the components a bit , because i think it would give you um maybe bring this discussion back to earth of what we can actually physically do . user interface: yeah , maybe . or project manager: do you wan na be next or you want kate to go next ? user interface: i think possibly it might be more useful if kate went next . project manager: okay , we 'll move the user interface: um industrial designer: user interface: you can even have them in different flavours as well . so that if you just wan na sit there and chew on the remote , it could be like pear flavour , marketing: yeah . or s or smelly . scratchy user interface: yeah . scratch and sniff . marketing: uh well i was really thinking a lot about the i_ uh the imac kind of gel gem tone . industrial designer: right , well marketing: it 's hot on the streets , guys . industrial designer: i i i think some of this um user interface: industrial designer: you 're gon na be a little disappointed with some of the things i have to tell you , but i 'm afraid this is the real world . so um i 've been looking at the the basics of how these devices actually have to work in order to operate , and i 've had some discussions with the ma manufacturing division , who have told me what 's actually available , you know , what the current state of the art in components is , and some of the exciting new things they 've got , but i 'm not sure that it 's quite what you want um . now this is n't a very good overhead , but this is just to show you , this is the innards of a remote control um . i really need a pen or something but uh does my mouse work ? no . um oh yeah , can you see my little mouse pointer ? project manager: mm . industrial designer: right . this is this is the a a a remote that 's been opened up project manager: mm . industrial designer: and that 's the the back of the interface . and this is a push-button one , so you see these little little buttons here , they 're little rubber rubber buttons that go through onto the the board at the back and they push these buttons here . um and we that 's the basic construction that we 've got to got to accommodate . we got to have something that pushes the little buttons that um talk to the chip that encodes the message that sends the the message to the receiver . so um i wan i wan na go through not not just addressing the um uh the the points that you made , sarah , but um doing my presentation in the order i wrote it . so first of all um i wan na talk about what possibilities we 've got for the energy source . marketing: industrial designer: um we can have your bog standard double double a_ batteries in a replaceable um little compartment . we can have a hand sorry user interface: a wind-up . marketing: industrial designer: a wind-up , yeah , which i think is quite an interesting concept for a sorry for a remote control , marketing: project manager: industrial designer: but i it maybe is does n't quite go with the um the fruit and veg . marketing: project manager: alright . industrial designer: um one that one that i think is quite interesting is the kinetic energy source , marketing: project manager: remember , we only have forty minutes industrial designer: where um you you actually get the energy by moving the device , marketing: mm . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: which is quite a ni a nice and neat one . you have to it means that if it 's sitting there for a long time it probably wo n't work , but you have to sort of throw it between your hands every now and then , it 'll work . user interface: industrial designer: or we we had talked about solar power , marketing: hmm . industrial designer: but i thing that we agreed that that 's not so good in the dark . project manager: mm . industrial designer: now i 'm afraid this is the options we 've got on on the case . it can be made of plastic , rubber , wood o if you like , or titanium . marketing: hmm . user interface: industrial designer: um and the nearest we 've got to st to spongy there i guess is rubber , but um i 'm gon na come back to the advantages of titanium , marketing: hmm . industrial designer: and basically it can have a flat surface , a curved surface or a double curved surface , but i think if we wan na use standard components , we 're gon na have difficulty with anything much beyond that . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: okay , what does the interface look like ? um well push button , that 's that 's the one we 're all familiar with . um we can have scroll buttons and the the scroll button can incorporate a push , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: so you can have it like on a mouse where you can use it to go up and down , change volume or channel or something like that and push to select something . um you can have multiple scroll buttons , um this is maybe getting a little bit complicated , but um it 's it the technology is there . and we can also incorporate an lcd display in the remote , but this will increase the cost . um the electronics that actually makes the device work , we 've basically got three , simple , regular , advanced , and the price goes up as we choose each of this . if we want the nice cheap one , the simple , then we can only have push buttons . all the other fancy interface designs go out the window , i 'm afraid . um pay a little bit more for a regular chip and you can have scroll buttons . if you want the advanced chip it obviously costs more , but it that 's what you need if you want the lcd display . and the manufacturing devision tell me that they have recently developed um sample sensor sample speaker devices . now i do n't know what that is , but i think they think it 's quite important and we might want to incorporate it somewhere . um ou our real expertise is in push buttons , i have to say , but maybe you think that 's old technology . marketing: mm . industrial designer: and well i i think we 've got two options . we can either go for a really cheap model , keep all of the costs down , um which means a flat plastic case with an ordinary battery and simple push buttons . or we can have something that looks a bit nicer , i think it , um wo n't necessarily l uh look like a pineapple , but um that may or may not be a good thing . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: sorry . um but it could have an lcd screen and it could have multiple scroll buttons , and it could have the the company 's new development of the um sample sensor and speaker . so , thank you . marketing: that sounds good . any idea you you mentioned that there would be a cost difference . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: um do you have any idea if if this could if the fancy model could be done in twelve euros fifty ? industrial designer: i 'm afraid i do n't have that information available . um manufacturing did n't actually give attach any prices to any of this , i 'm afraid . project manager: hmm . marketing: hmm . because , you know what , i 'm being quite serious when i say that that um the things i mentioned are hot . but i think the important thing might be to choose one . industrial designer: yeah mm-hmm . marketing: you know , if if what you 're telling me is is um some of these things are n't just f are n't feasible , maybe we could something about naming , we could call it , you know , blackberry . user interface: bear bear in mind it has to be the colours and styles of the company , marketing: that 's uh user interface: so what i had been thinking was something chunky and yellow and plastic with black buttons with a logo on it . industrial designer: banana ? marketing: alright , well let 's see then . user interface: but um i i do n't know how important that is to keep it exactly the colours of the real reaction company . marketing: yeah . user interface: it 's just what i 'd understood we 'd be doing . that 's before i heard about all this hot tips about the future , fruit-wise . marketing: yeah . but yeah , industrial designer: we we could we could do um a double curved rubber one , marketing: i 'm trying to streamline mine a little bit . industrial designer: which would allow um say a banana , but um unfortunately i see from my notes that if we do that , we have to have a push button as the interface , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: we ca n't do anything fancier . user interface: shall we wait 'til i 've 'til i 've showed you what well , my extensive presentation on what sort of interfaces are available . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yep . marketing: mm . thank you , kate . project manager: thank you , kate . marketing: mm . user interface: you did seem to include just in more detail what i 've got though . so so mine 's a bit pointless . right . industrial designer: user interface: f_n_ and f_ eight , did you say ? project manager: yes . there we go . industrial designer: user interface: i do n't have it on mine though . marketing: oh i think um florence resolved it by industrial designer: i if you do f_ uh f_n_ f_ eight again , it 's it 'll project manager: do it again . marketing: f_ eight again . project manager: keep doing it until you get it in both you get it there , you get it yours without that one , industrial designer: i think it yeah , you you will do an project manager: and then you get it with both . user interface: should i do it again ? project manager: yeah . marketing: maybe . industrial designer: project manager: this time it should come up both . user interface: right then . i do n't actually have a huge amount of different information then what kate says , project manager: okay . user interface: just that my method was to look at the , well , my my inspirations , which was a big collection of lots of different models of remote controls and other things that use a similar sort of thing , including m_p_ three players , uh like you know , hi-fi remotes , not just television and these things . project manager: mm-hmm . mm . user interface: uh having a think about the feature of ea the features of each ones , um what functions we actually need , and then how to group and arrange these on the actual the actual plastic or rubber hand-held piece . uh i 've been especially interested in the ipod style scroll wheel , which well , i could n't find a the picture of the ipod w only linked to a web browser , so i could n't copy and paste it , but it had a similar thing to this thing on the right . it has uh scroll wheels without without a display , but they they scroll like a computer mouse . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: so i was thinking that uh um a really simple a really simple interface with just a couple of scroll things on it um and then instead of a display the display could appear on the television screen . like i guess an existing sky or cable one does . like , you know , you press enter and it comes up with what 's showing on that channel at the moment , and you can do you can scroll along and it 'll show you what 's on in the next half hour , and you scroll up marketing: user interface: and you can see what 's on the other channels while you 're watching the same channel on the screen . uh but i 'm also equally taken with this chunky plastic kiddie remote , marketing: mm . user interface: um which is really nice and fun and good to hold and nice , big , easy buttons to press , but still quite simple and quite cost effective . so project manager: user interface: what seems kind of ideal for me would be to just have a fairly simple , uh not fancy but not totally minimalist , i mean just pretty simple plastic , probably , i was thinking , yellow and black , just because that 's the company 's colours , with very very few buttons , but that would correspond to a screen that would appear on the television screen , like , you know , just small along the bottom instead of instead of having the ipod style display screen on the actual remotes , which is far too expensive . project manager: mm . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: and when you 've got a screen sitting there in front of you , you might as well have it appearing uh on the screen in front of you , it does n't obscure much of the actual picture you 're watching . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and so on that you can , just much in the same way as an existing sky remote , scroll along , scroll up and down . industrial designer: yeah , i 'd i 'd certainly support that idea . user interface: and uh and i definitely support uh the use of plastic and or rubber . i mean titanium would be great , but i think it might be a bit too expensive and too kinda spacey . if we 're k trying to keep it colourful and slightly organic , then i think titanium 's too futuristic . industrial designer: it 's difficult to make fancy shapes in it as well , we ca n't for example have a double curved case in titanium unfortunately . user interface: yeah . whereas a plastic 's so cheap and easy and mouldable and everything else . industrial designer: marketing: hmm . user interface: uh then industrial designer: and the the having the the the screen on the television screen i think is a good idea , 'cause um otherwise we 're we 're putting up the price not only for putting building the lcd in , but for the electronics as well . user interface: and it 's a little bit pointless as well i think . industrial designer: there is that . user interface: like when when when you 've got when you 've got the screen there , it does n't have to be anything fancy , marketing: it 's a duplication . user interface: just a little menu showing yeah , a menu , you go into one menu and then it can have your different options , whether you wan na change the settings or the you know , your information about programme that 's on at the moment . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i do n't think that 's to taxing to uh s engineer . um . but as for actually arranging them let me go back to the to the picture of the kiddie one . and i quite like it , 'cause it 's just smooth and hand-held and it 's got these easily reachable buttons that quite nicely uh spaced out , so something a bit like that with buttons arranged in a kind of circle . up , down , left , right . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: do you want scroll buttons in that as well ? user interface: i i was thinking not actually scroll , like a like mouse scroll , but you know , a i ca n't quite d uh describe it . you see on the one on the right , down at the bottom , is the mouse . yeah , see where the mouse is , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: like this s style thing where you c have up , down , left and right . and enter in the middle , industrial designer: right . user interface: so you pick your menu and then your different options and when when you click on each one , it you can go into a new menu for that . i 'm getting a bit uh specific here . marketing: user interface: really we 'd have to use something to show you , industrial designer: yeah . i think i think that 's a g nice clean design , user interface: but industrial designer: it 's playing to our strengths which are in push button technology . marketing: to uh m make it . user interface: if i do n't think i can get it up on the screen . ah here we go . right . marketing: oh nice . user interface: well , marketing: um hmm . user interface: the ipod spinning wheel is uh really complicated . project manager: huh . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: it does scroll , but it is hugely complicated . what else have we got ? marketing: mm . wow . user interface: them , they 're terrible . but they all have this this feature of this uh it 's not quite a scroll wheel , but it 's a kind of selection in this circle , project manager: it 's a selection wheel . user interface: which i think is a really good idea . industrial designer: but we can implement it with simple push buttons , which is much cheaper . user interface: yeah , like up , down , left and right . which is good . and then and then yeah , so i mean either a channel up and down , volume up and down , next appearing programmes up and down , uh and then also when you get into the different menus on the screen , it 's got your things like settings and contrast up and down . project manager: okay . user interface: so all you really need is these four buttons with the enter in the middle . project manager: okay . user interface: and that 's it . industrial designer: in fact user interface: look at look at this one . industrial designer: oh that 's really nice . user interface: almost impossible to misplace or l or lose . project manager: marketing: do you think with um project manager: user interface: might take up your whole living room . marketing: it seems that that uh you guys are quite keen on the plastic , perhaps the something reminiscent of the child 's remote . do you think we could put it in a in a fruit colour ? and have it abstract . you know , user interface: possibly . marketing: we could call like a fruit name , industrial designer: hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: but it would be a little more abstract . industrial designer: mm . we we could actually do it in rubber instead of plastic if you 'd rather if you feel if you like the spongy user interface: that also is possible . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: just marketing: i 'm just just throwing out ideas . project manager: or call it a or call it a banana and have it in yellow . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah . i 'm thinking maybe we need to be a little bit more abstract if the design constraints are so project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: uh just something else i need to bring to your attention is have you have you seen these on a remote ? this is actually the volume up and down , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but they both say v_ on them , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: which , when you first look at it , you expect that to be the down , because it looks like a downward pointing arrow , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: hmm . user interface: but it 's actually the v_ to indicate that it 's the volume , so uh we do need to avoid little ambiguities like these . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: nice . good point . user interface: but we would n't have a specific volume up and down . if we 're having the scroll wheel , then it 's gon na double up as all the other up and down functions . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: but then , that 's complicated . project manager: i wan na thank you all for all your presentations . we have about ten minutes left , in which time we have to make some decisions on the remote control concepts . um and i think you all have been self-stimulating of working together . um we need to come up with some specifics of the components , um the materials , things like making the decision on the energy um and the case and the interface type things . so let 's mm . right . they want us to decide what form of energy are we going to use , which the choices that we 've discussed were pretty much battery , kinetic or solar . um this is where kate 's expertise comes in , and our decision making will be a little bit guided by kate at this point . industrial designer: project manager: the you were saying that the kinetic would be useful , that is you just have to move it some and you 'd be able to use it um as opposed to a battery that you have to either put it in a recharger or um keep replacing the batteries . um or solar that you 'd have difficulty with it if it 's a dark day , that it 'll die on you , and no way to do it . that 's the day you wan na use the tv . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um so what 's our pleasure here , what would be the cost consequences of each of the three ? industrial designer: oh unfortunately i do n't have costing information . project manager: okay . industrial designer: i i in terms of workability , i i think the the two front-runners are the standard battery or the kinetic , project manager: mm 'kay . industrial designer: but i 'm sorry i do n't figures on the difference in cost . project manager: what 's the uh feelings of the group on the kinetic ? marketing: i 've used kinetic in terms of watches and it 's very very uh handy , you do n't even notice um that it 's there . user interface: it sounds great . i 've never come across it before , but it sounds fantastic . sounds like it could be g a really good economical marketing: it 's user interface: it would make the whole thing a lot lighter , more convenient . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: hmm . marketing: it could tie in with the fanciful design project manager: hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: as uh , you know , user interface: 'cause it 's really a quite attractive thought , marketing: throw the banana , you know , just got ta keep it moving . user interface: is n't it ? it 's like yeah , project manager: so the consensus seems to be use the kinetic if it 's at all possible . user interface: a good selling point . marketing: be user interface: but it does depend how much i mean how much it costs and how much more development and research it needs . project manager: it costs . mm . industrial designer: and and how much you do have to keep it moving , marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . industrial designer: 'cause i 'm conscious that watching tv can be quite a sed sedentary activity . marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: mm . marketing: but i could market that as a um as a a i was thinking actually a a cost saver down the road , in terms of battery , you know . user interface: do your exercises while you 're watching the tv . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: true , yeah , m more more environmentally friendly . user interface: yeah , that 's what i was thinking as well . marketing: mm-hmm . you know , project manager: yeah . marketing: kind of the project manager: thanks for the reminder for five minutes to finish , thanks . industrial designer: oh right , okay , project manager: um the next thing that they wanted us to do was look at chip on print as a decision . industrial designer: i 'd that that 's something i maybe should have covered . um chip on print is just a manufacturing technique project manager: oh . industrial designer: um and i would certainly recommend it , i think , because i 'm not sure i have an alternative . project manager: okay . user interface: project manager: what about the ca industrial designer: i i it it 's just the way that the the the uh th the way it 's ac it 's actually built project manager: yeah . oh , the way we uh-huh . industrial designer: and you you print onto the circuit board like you might print onto paper . project manager: oh , okay . um what about the case ? i think they 're talking there about do we want wood , plastic , titanium or rubber , industrial designer: project manager: and i think we 've discussed not having titanium . one , it 's too expensive , um and second , it wo n't do this double um curves . um we 've sort of eliminated wood . we said plastic or rubber . what 's the pleasure ? industrial designer: well if if sarah 's keen on a spongy feel , the the rubber that we 're talking about is the same as you have in those little stress balls , so it 's marketing: that 's exactly what i was thinking . i 'm sold . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: what about you ? user interface: do you not think it might need like a kind of a hard plastic inner shell with the actual delicate workings inside , and then a kind of spongy yeah , s thick spongy cover , marketing: mm . kind of like an internal egg . project manager: cover . user interface: so it feels like the whole thing 's spongy , but actually you 're not damaging anything by squeezing it . project manager: plastic inside . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because i mean you could just get carried away with the with the tac industrial designer: i 'd i 'd need to talk to manufacturing again about whether that 's actually possible , but i agree , it 's uh sounds like a nice idea if it is . user interface: yeah . well you do get a bit carried away with things that are tactile , you just wan na stroke them and squeeze them , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: marketing: and with sports on television . project manager: okay . user interface: and marketing: you know . project manager: um the next part they want is the user interface concept . industrial designer: i should i should r marketing: i su project manager: i 'm sorry to push you , but we only have a couple minutes to finish with . marketing: then i 'll just say i support either from a marketing point of view i support either decision that the designers make on that . project manager: okay , and it says interface . what type and what supplements ? user interface: just copy the one on the left . no um a scroll well , like four buttons , up , down , left and right with enter in the middle , that will correspond to a menu on the screen . industrial designer: which i think technically is just push button and uh i 'd certainly support that that user interface: yeah , industrial designer: that brings the cost down quite a lot user interface: i 'd like push buttons with industrial designer: and it 's something that we 're an ex the company 's an expert on . user interface: so push buttons project manager: okay , um that 's that . um this is gon na sound weird , but the next meeting starts in thirty minutes . whew . industrial designer: project manager: and they actually want a look and feel design , user interface design , you can look and see this as well as i can . marketing they want product evaluation . user interface: no , it 's still it 's still plugged in on mine actually . marketing: no we ca n't , actually . project manager: oh . oh my , i 'm sorry . marketing: that 's why i was looking over your shoulder project manager: oh , okay . sorry about that . missed that one . this ought to be fun trying to get this thing to work . ah , ta-da . industrial designer: user interface: now it 's gone again . project manager: ah . industrial designer: you know , i think the the company 's s next project should to design a better overhead device that switches immediately . project manager: yes , because i ca n't even see mine . next meeting starts in thirty minutes , user interface: oh yes . project manager: these are the individual actions . yeah , right . um the look and feel design is for kate , marketing: mm . project manager: uh steph gets the user interface design , you get product evaluation . um the two of you get to play with a pla modelling clay um to do a prototype . user interface: great . project manager: uh and everybody gets individual instructions in the usual way . marketing: sounds good . project manager: anything else we need to do ? user interface: i do n't think so . project manager: go to it . user interface: play-doh . project manager: and that 's the end of this meeting . that 's for her benefit . marketing: that 's really all i got , guys . industrial designer: { vocalsound }

user interface thought it was rather meaningless to put the screen on the television screen . it would be better if they only made a menu with different options through which users can change the settings and find information about programs .

what did user interface think about the design of the remote control when discussing the user interface concept ? </s> project manager: hi kate . okay , carry on . industrial designer: just just carry on . project manager: alright um this is the beginning of the third meeting , the conceptual design meeting . um our agenda should be um that we 're opening the meeting , i have the minutes from the previous meeting are on the shared f drive at this point . um and we should each have a presentation to make . um we have certain decisions to make and we have forty minutes total . it 's twenty five after two at the moment , so forty minutes is five after three , um which i 'll be keeping an eye on the clock for us . okay . um there are the decisions we have to turn to , but we 'll come back to them in a minute after i take us to the minutes of the previous meeting . right um as we remember , i opened the meeting , the four of us were present , the meeting the first meeting 's minutes were reviewed and approved . um sarah , you presented a marketing research report um which pretty much rep represented that fifteen to thirty five year olds uh it has to be hand-held , power , channel , volume , number keys , possibly a speech recognition . and then steph did a second presentation um that those functions plus streamlining them with big user-friendly keys that were easy to use . i think all of us agreed with those things . kate presented a working design of going after going over the basics on the whiteboard um that it should be a simple mass-produced device , because of the twelve and a half pence cost . um but we did talk about possibly using rechargeable batteries and having a docking place as a selling point . um and the new requirements that it for be for tv only um and that it include the l so slogan and colour of the uh corporate design be included . um the corporate image . so we agreed that the target market would be fifteen to thirty five with more money than sense , that were decision makers . alternatively it would be a manufacturer to enclose it with the tv , but it still should meet those parameters . um and that the function we agreed was volume , power , numbers , enter , channels , a way to move between channels , easy to use and hand-held . um at that point we agreed that sarah would look at the current cost of competition , what what do the current ones sell for . um and steph was gon na look at ec ergonomics . kate was gon na look at cost and feasibility of the various possibilities that we discussed . and i was to type up these minutes and work on the final report . is this a fair presentation of what our last meeting was ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . project manager: okay . right . so we 're ready to close that and go back to our that one . right . we 're up to the point of the go back . um the three presentations . so we 're going to pull the plug on me and turn to sarah . is that okay ? is that alright with everybody else ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yep . project manager: especially since kate asked to be last . sarah , i 'm sorry if i misspelled your name , i did n't know whether it was s_a_r_a_ or s_a_r_h_ . marketing: i respond to either . project manager: you respond to whatever you get , huh ? marketing: no worries . project manager: okay . um , did you do your hit user interface: yeah , project manager: ah , there it is . ta-da . marketing: okay , first thing i want to address is um one of the points that florence brought up , which was uh current cost of the competition devices , similar to the ones that stephanie uh showed us and and they 're uh twenty to sixty euros , depending on uh branding . user interface: right . marketing: some of them that have a higher brand recognition are on the more expensive end . but i think that with the current um price that we 're searching for , we 're well within , even on the lower end , of the uh of the market . project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: but i 'm going to move on to more interesting um more vibrant things . so , i investigated the remote control market in greater detail , and my uh the theme of what i was to work on was uh trend watch . user interface: marketing: and project manager: 'kay . user interface: industrial designer: sorry . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: i 'm glad to see the marketing budget is being so well spent on . marketing: project manager: marketing: i know that you all are a distance from cutting edge marketing research , industrial designer: marketing: so you know , i 'm just gon na try to cloak it in really professional terms here . what 's hot , fruit and veg . spongy . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: and this is all over the catwalks , paris , milan , and i 'm talking about clothing , furniture , shoes . industrial designer: marketing: this is really interesting change from past years , project manager: mm . user interface: marketing: because it is much more organic , um some would say approachable . and i think if we 're to refashion our view of what we want in a remote control , we should perhaps think about incorporating technologically interesting fabrics and some of the bold colours into a simple handset . so . i also did a little research on um what again are the most important priorities in uh decision making about uh purchasing . fancy . functional is out . and f the fancy , and that 's exactly the term , i 'm i 'm thinking polished , elegant , you know , kind of innovative , but a cut above . this is twice as important as the next finding , which is technologically innovative . this is interesting , 'cause i think in the last meeting we were talking about technology as being so important , but maybe what 's innovative is having it simple with um with uh technologically superior fabrics or uh , you know , designed in interesting substances . ease of use . again , pretty low , i mean it 's the top three , but each of the uh fancy and technologically innovative are far more important . so i think we should cloak the streamlined remote control device in a series of fruit fruit themed sleeves . user interface: industrial designer: i think that 's a good idea . do n't you ? marketing: y yeah , you know project manager: it sounds like the the uh covers that they use for the remote , you know , your t your cell phone . user interface: yes . marketing: exactly . exactly . i was thinking though that instead of having something uh like patterned , you know , so , you know , something similar to a summer dress . you know , it would have like fruit and veg , is that we actually make these spongy . project manager: mm . marketing: they could be ini initially i thought we could start with kind of um fruit that would suit kind of uh a long uh hand-held , so banana , pineapple and pear . um it could actually the sleeve could take up a lot of the development and the remote control , we 'd just need to get reductionist on it . user interface: marketing: they could be interchangeable , they 're spongy , that goes back to ergonomic , and the youngsters love 'em , fun for the whole family , everyone can have their own . so what we 're talking about is changing . this concept . everyone has a tv remote , but then we add in the fact that they could each have their own individual fruit . user interface: marketing: that 's what 's hot on the catwalks . so , this is my this is what i 'm thinking . project manager: hmm . user interface: project manager: uh-huh mm . in most families , do n't is n't the remote is a remote . marketing: y yeah , but i think i think what this would allow is perhaps a person in the family who had the most opinion about it we all need a remote , project manager: mm . marketing: but the person who is really perhaps active in personalising , i 'm thinking the teenager , the someone fifteen to thirty five would go out and get this additional thing the same way as you mentioned that people would get the cell phone covers . user interface: so when your dad 's sitting there , overriding your decision , going no we 're gon na watch this , you can bring out your own remote and be like zap , no we 're gon na watch this . marketing: yeah . w and plus i think project manager: mm . well actually some households do have three and four tvs marketing: uh yeah . user interface: project manager: and they would have a remote for each one , marketing: yeah . project manager: so . marketing: yeah . so this is an idea and i i you know , this is exactly what the research has uh has shown . so i really open this up to uh any other feedback . this spongy fruit and veg . industrial designer: yeah , i i think we 're gon na have some trouble when we get down to the component design on this . marketing: thanks . alright . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: spongy is gon na be difficult , i 'm afraid . user interface: yep . and as for as for um well budgeting as well , if we 're gon na have lots of different interchangeable components . project manager: hmm . marketing: i i just have my ear to the market , guys . user interface: is this to the market ? industrial designer: yeah , i mean basically we can make these things out of wood , titanium , plastic or rubber . i suppose rubber is the closest to spongy , marketing: is spongiest , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that would add industrial designer: i was thinking titanium myself . user interface: i was thinking titanium , i was thinking it 's just i have been influenced by pictures of ipods , and they 're also minimalist and shiny . marketing: mm-hmm . they are and they they would fulfil the uh first um priority , which is fancy . i think many of us would associate those with fancy . something else we could do is uh call it something that 's fruit and veg oriented . we could call it uh the name . project manager: are we talking about the device itself or the c or a cover for the device that would be an interchangeable cov cover as a separate product ? marketing: well it would be uh a a very simple product that would have a spongy sleeve that would be interchangeable . so project manager: perhaps perhaps that desi that particular suggestion needs to go back to management user interface: yeah , but it 's kind of pointless , is n't it ? project manager: and perhaps go to another group to actually design as a separate product . user interface: yeah . marketing: that , you know , that might be user interface: let 's delegate . project manager: wo would that be agreeable ? marketing: and then we could keep it titanium . industrial designer: yeah . w w would it be helpful if um i described the components a bit , because i think it would give you um maybe bring this discussion back to earth of what we can actually physically do . user interface: yeah , maybe . or project manager: do you wan na be next or you want kate to go next ? user interface: i think possibly it might be more useful if kate went next . project manager: okay , we 'll move the user interface: um industrial designer: user interface: you can even have them in different flavours as well . so that if you just wan na sit there and chew on the remote , it could be like pear flavour , marketing: yeah . or s or smelly . scratchy user interface: yeah . scratch and sniff . marketing: uh well i was really thinking a lot about the i_ uh the imac kind of gel gem tone . industrial designer: right , well marketing: it 's hot on the streets , guys . industrial designer: i i i think some of this um user interface: industrial designer: you 're gon na be a little disappointed with some of the things i have to tell you , but i 'm afraid this is the real world . so um i 've been looking at the the basics of how these devices actually have to work in order to operate , and i 've had some discussions with the ma manufacturing division , who have told me what 's actually available , you know , what the current state of the art in components is , and some of the exciting new things they 've got , but i 'm not sure that it 's quite what you want um . now this is n't a very good overhead , but this is just to show you , this is the innards of a remote control um . i really need a pen or something but uh does my mouse work ? no . um oh yeah , can you see my little mouse pointer ? project manager: mm . industrial designer: right . this is this is the a a a remote that 's been opened up project manager: mm . industrial designer: and that 's the the back of the interface . and this is a push-button one , so you see these little little buttons here , they 're little rubber rubber buttons that go through onto the the board at the back and they push these buttons here . um and we that 's the basic construction that we 've got to got to accommodate . we got to have something that pushes the little buttons that um talk to the chip that encodes the message that sends the the message to the receiver . so um i wan i wan na go through not not just addressing the um uh the the points that you made , sarah , but um doing my presentation in the order i wrote it . so first of all um i wan na talk about what possibilities we 've got for the energy source . marketing: industrial designer: um we can have your bog standard double double a_ batteries in a replaceable um little compartment . we can have a hand sorry user interface: a wind-up . marketing: industrial designer: a wind-up , yeah , which i think is quite an interesting concept for a sorry for a remote control , marketing: project manager: industrial designer: but i it maybe is does n't quite go with the um the fruit and veg . marketing: project manager: alright . industrial designer: um one that one that i think is quite interesting is the kinetic energy source , marketing: project manager: remember , we only have forty minutes industrial designer: where um you you actually get the energy by moving the device , marketing: mm . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: which is quite a ni a nice and neat one . you have to it means that if it 's sitting there for a long time it probably wo n't work , but you have to sort of throw it between your hands every now and then , it 'll work . user interface: industrial designer: or we we had talked about solar power , marketing: hmm . industrial designer: but i thing that we agreed that that 's not so good in the dark . project manager: mm . industrial designer: now i 'm afraid this is the options we 've got on on the case . it can be made of plastic , rubber , wood o if you like , or titanium . marketing: hmm . user interface: industrial designer: um and the nearest we 've got to st to spongy there i guess is rubber , but um i 'm gon na come back to the advantages of titanium , marketing: hmm . industrial designer: and basically it can have a flat surface , a curved surface or a double curved surface , but i think if we wan na use standard components , we 're gon na have difficulty with anything much beyond that . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: okay , what does the interface look like ? um well push button , that 's that 's the one we 're all familiar with . um we can have scroll buttons and the the scroll button can incorporate a push , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: so you can have it like on a mouse where you can use it to go up and down , change volume or channel or something like that and push to select something . um you can have multiple scroll buttons , um this is maybe getting a little bit complicated , but um it 's it the technology is there . and we can also incorporate an lcd display in the remote , but this will increase the cost . um the electronics that actually makes the device work , we 've basically got three , simple , regular , advanced , and the price goes up as we choose each of this . if we want the nice cheap one , the simple , then we can only have push buttons . all the other fancy interface designs go out the window , i 'm afraid . um pay a little bit more for a regular chip and you can have scroll buttons . if you want the advanced chip it obviously costs more , but it that 's what you need if you want the lcd display . and the manufacturing devision tell me that they have recently developed um sample sensor sample speaker devices . now i do n't know what that is , but i think they think it 's quite important and we might want to incorporate it somewhere . um ou our real expertise is in push buttons , i have to say , but maybe you think that 's old technology . marketing: mm . industrial designer: and well i i think we 've got two options . we can either go for a really cheap model , keep all of the costs down , um which means a flat plastic case with an ordinary battery and simple push buttons . or we can have something that looks a bit nicer , i think it , um wo n't necessarily l uh look like a pineapple , but um that may or may not be a good thing . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: sorry . um but it could have an lcd screen and it could have multiple scroll buttons , and it could have the the company 's new development of the um sample sensor and speaker . so , thank you . marketing: that sounds good . any idea you you mentioned that there would be a cost difference . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: um do you have any idea if if this could if the fancy model could be done in twelve euros fifty ? industrial designer: i 'm afraid i do n't have that information available . um manufacturing did n't actually give attach any prices to any of this , i 'm afraid . project manager: hmm . marketing: hmm . because , you know what , i 'm being quite serious when i say that that um the things i mentioned are hot . but i think the important thing might be to choose one . industrial designer: yeah mm-hmm . marketing: you know , if if what you 're telling me is is um some of these things are n't just f are n't feasible , maybe we could something about naming , we could call it , you know , blackberry . user interface: bear bear in mind it has to be the colours and styles of the company , marketing: that 's uh user interface: so what i had been thinking was something chunky and yellow and plastic with black buttons with a logo on it . industrial designer: banana ? marketing: alright , well let 's see then . user interface: but um i i do n't know how important that is to keep it exactly the colours of the real reaction company . marketing: yeah . user interface: it 's just what i 'd understood we 'd be doing . that 's before i heard about all this hot tips about the future , fruit-wise . marketing: yeah . but yeah , industrial designer: we we could we could do um a double curved rubber one , marketing: i 'm trying to streamline mine a little bit . industrial designer: which would allow um say a banana , but um unfortunately i see from my notes that if we do that , we have to have a push button as the interface , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: we ca n't do anything fancier . user interface: shall we wait 'til i 've 'til i 've showed you what well , my extensive presentation on what sort of interfaces are available . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yep . marketing: mm . thank you , kate . project manager: thank you , kate . marketing: mm . user interface: you did seem to include just in more detail what i 've got though . so so mine 's a bit pointless . right . industrial designer: user interface: f_n_ and f_ eight , did you say ? project manager: yes . there we go . industrial designer: user interface: i do n't have it on mine though . marketing: oh i think um florence resolved it by industrial designer: i if you do f_ uh f_n_ f_ eight again , it 's it 'll project manager: do it again . marketing: f_ eight again . project manager: keep doing it until you get it in both you get it there , you get it yours without that one , industrial designer: i think it yeah , you you will do an project manager: and then you get it with both . user interface: should i do it again ? project manager: yeah . marketing: maybe . industrial designer: project manager: this time it should come up both . user interface: right then . i do n't actually have a huge amount of different information then what kate says , project manager: okay . user interface: just that my method was to look at the , well , my my inspirations , which was a big collection of lots of different models of remote controls and other things that use a similar sort of thing , including m_p_ three players , uh like you know , hi-fi remotes , not just television and these things . project manager: mm-hmm . mm . user interface: uh having a think about the feature of ea the features of each ones , um what functions we actually need , and then how to group and arrange these on the actual the actual plastic or rubber hand-held piece . uh i 've been especially interested in the ipod style scroll wheel , which well , i could n't find a the picture of the ipod w only linked to a web browser , so i could n't copy and paste it , but it had a similar thing to this thing on the right . it has uh scroll wheels without without a display , but they they scroll like a computer mouse . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: so i was thinking that uh um a really simple a really simple interface with just a couple of scroll things on it um and then instead of a display the display could appear on the television screen . like i guess an existing sky or cable one does . like , you know , you press enter and it comes up with what 's showing on that channel at the moment , and you can do you can scroll along and it 'll show you what 's on in the next half hour , and you scroll up marketing: user interface: and you can see what 's on the other channels while you 're watching the same channel on the screen . uh but i 'm also equally taken with this chunky plastic kiddie remote , marketing: mm . user interface: um which is really nice and fun and good to hold and nice , big , easy buttons to press , but still quite simple and quite cost effective . so project manager: user interface: what seems kind of ideal for me would be to just have a fairly simple , uh not fancy but not totally minimalist , i mean just pretty simple plastic , probably , i was thinking , yellow and black , just because that 's the company 's colours , with very very few buttons , but that would correspond to a screen that would appear on the television screen , like , you know , just small along the bottom instead of instead of having the ipod style display screen on the actual remotes , which is far too expensive . project manager: mm . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: and when you 've got a screen sitting there in front of you , you might as well have it appearing uh on the screen in front of you , it does n't obscure much of the actual picture you 're watching . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and so on that you can , just much in the same way as an existing sky remote , scroll along , scroll up and down . industrial designer: yeah , i 'd i 'd certainly support that idea . user interface: and uh and i definitely support uh the use of plastic and or rubber . i mean titanium would be great , but i think it might be a bit too expensive and too kinda spacey . if we 're k trying to keep it colourful and slightly organic , then i think titanium 's too futuristic . industrial designer: it 's difficult to make fancy shapes in it as well , we ca n't for example have a double curved case in titanium unfortunately . user interface: yeah . whereas a plastic 's so cheap and easy and mouldable and everything else . industrial designer: marketing: hmm . user interface: uh then industrial designer: and the the having the the the screen on the television screen i think is a good idea , 'cause um otherwise we 're we 're putting up the price not only for putting building the lcd in , but for the electronics as well . user interface: and it 's a little bit pointless as well i think . industrial designer: there is that . user interface: like when when when you 've got when you 've got the screen there , it does n't have to be anything fancy , marketing: it 's a duplication . user interface: just a little menu showing yeah , a menu , you go into one menu and then it can have your different options , whether you wan na change the settings or the you know , your information about programme that 's on at the moment . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i do n't think that 's to taxing to uh s engineer . um . but as for actually arranging them let me go back to the to the picture of the kiddie one . and i quite like it , 'cause it 's just smooth and hand-held and it 's got these easily reachable buttons that quite nicely uh spaced out , so something a bit like that with buttons arranged in a kind of circle . up , down , left , right . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: do you want scroll buttons in that as well ? user interface: i i was thinking not actually scroll , like a like mouse scroll , but you know , a i ca n't quite d uh describe it . you see on the one on the right , down at the bottom , is the mouse . yeah , see where the mouse is , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: like this s style thing where you c have up , down , left and right . and enter in the middle , industrial designer: right . user interface: so you pick your menu and then your different options and when when you click on each one , it you can go into a new menu for that . i 'm getting a bit uh specific here . marketing: user interface: really we 'd have to use something to show you , industrial designer: yeah . i think i think that 's a g nice clean design , user interface: but industrial designer: it 's playing to our strengths which are in push button technology . marketing: to uh m make it . user interface: if i do n't think i can get it up on the screen . ah here we go . right . marketing: oh nice . user interface: well , marketing: um hmm . user interface: the ipod spinning wheel is uh really complicated . project manager: huh . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: it does scroll , but it is hugely complicated . what else have we got ? marketing: mm . wow . user interface: them , they 're terrible . but they all have this this feature of this uh it 's not quite a scroll wheel , but it 's a kind of selection in this circle , project manager: it 's a selection wheel . user interface: which i think is a really good idea . industrial designer: but we can implement it with simple push buttons , which is much cheaper . user interface: yeah , like up , down , left and right . which is good . and then and then yeah , so i mean either a channel up and down , volume up and down , next appearing programmes up and down , uh and then also when you get into the different menus on the screen , it 's got your things like settings and contrast up and down . project manager: okay . user interface: so all you really need is these four buttons with the enter in the middle . project manager: okay . user interface: and that 's it . industrial designer: in fact user interface: look at look at this one . industrial designer: oh that 's really nice . user interface: almost impossible to misplace or l or lose . project manager: marketing: do you think with um project manager: user interface: might take up your whole living room . marketing: it seems that that uh you guys are quite keen on the plastic , perhaps the something reminiscent of the child 's remote . do you think we could put it in a in a fruit colour ? and have it abstract . you know , user interface: possibly . marketing: we could call like a fruit name , industrial designer: hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: but it would be a little more abstract . industrial designer: mm . we we could actually do it in rubber instead of plastic if you 'd rather if you feel if you like the spongy user interface: that also is possible . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: just marketing: i 'm just just throwing out ideas . project manager: or call it a or call it a banana and have it in yellow . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah . i 'm thinking maybe we need to be a little bit more abstract if the design constraints are so project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: uh just something else i need to bring to your attention is have you have you seen these on a remote ? this is actually the volume up and down , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but they both say v_ on them , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: which , when you first look at it , you expect that to be the down , because it looks like a downward pointing arrow , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: hmm . user interface: but it 's actually the v_ to indicate that it 's the volume , so uh we do need to avoid little ambiguities like these . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: nice . good point . user interface: but we would n't have a specific volume up and down . if we 're having the scroll wheel , then it 's gon na double up as all the other up and down functions . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: but then , that 's complicated . project manager: i wan na thank you all for all your presentations . we have about ten minutes left , in which time we have to make some decisions on the remote control concepts . um and i think you all have been self-stimulating of working together . um we need to come up with some specifics of the components , um the materials , things like making the decision on the energy um and the case and the interface type things . so let 's mm . right . they want us to decide what form of energy are we going to use , which the choices that we 've discussed were pretty much battery , kinetic or solar . um this is where kate 's expertise comes in , and our decision making will be a little bit guided by kate at this point . industrial designer: project manager: the you were saying that the kinetic would be useful , that is you just have to move it some and you 'd be able to use it um as opposed to a battery that you have to either put it in a recharger or um keep replacing the batteries . um or solar that you 'd have difficulty with it if it 's a dark day , that it 'll die on you , and no way to do it . that 's the day you wan na use the tv . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um so what 's our pleasure here , what would be the cost consequences of each of the three ? industrial designer: oh unfortunately i do n't have costing information . project manager: okay . industrial designer: i i in terms of workability , i i think the the two front-runners are the standard battery or the kinetic , project manager: mm 'kay . industrial designer: but i 'm sorry i do n't figures on the difference in cost . project manager: what 's the uh feelings of the group on the kinetic ? marketing: i 've used kinetic in terms of watches and it 's very very uh handy , you do n't even notice um that it 's there . user interface: it sounds great . i 've never come across it before , but it sounds fantastic . sounds like it could be g a really good economical marketing: it 's user interface: it would make the whole thing a lot lighter , more convenient . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: hmm . marketing: it could tie in with the fanciful design project manager: hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: as uh , you know , user interface: 'cause it 's really a quite attractive thought , marketing: throw the banana , you know , just got ta keep it moving . user interface: is n't it ? it 's like yeah , project manager: so the consensus seems to be use the kinetic if it 's at all possible . user interface: a good selling point . marketing: be user interface: but it does depend how much i mean how much it costs and how much more development and research it needs . project manager: it costs . mm . industrial designer: and and how much you do have to keep it moving , marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . industrial designer: 'cause i 'm conscious that watching tv can be quite a sed sedentary activity . marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: mm . marketing: but i could market that as a um as a a i was thinking actually a a cost saver down the road , in terms of battery , you know . user interface: do your exercises while you 're watching the tv . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: true , yeah , m more more environmentally friendly . user interface: yeah , that 's what i was thinking as well . marketing: mm-hmm . you know , project manager: yeah . marketing: kind of the project manager: thanks for the reminder for five minutes to finish , thanks . industrial designer: oh right , okay , project manager: um the next thing that they wanted us to do was look at chip on print as a decision . industrial designer: i 'd that that 's something i maybe should have covered . um chip on print is just a manufacturing technique project manager: oh . industrial designer: um and i would certainly recommend it , i think , because i 'm not sure i have an alternative . project manager: okay . user interface: project manager: what about the ca industrial designer: i i it it 's just the way that the the the uh th the way it 's ac it 's actually built project manager: yeah . oh , the way we uh-huh . industrial designer: and you you print onto the circuit board like you might print onto paper . project manager: oh , okay . um what about the case ? i think they 're talking there about do we want wood , plastic , titanium or rubber , industrial designer: project manager: and i think we 've discussed not having titanium . one , it 's too expensive , um and second , it wo n't do this double um curves . um we 've sort of eliminated wood . we said plastic or rubber . what 's the pleasure ? industrial designer: well if if sarah 's keen on a spongy feel , the the rubber that we 're talking about is the same as you have in those little stress balls , so it 's marketing: that 's exactly what i was thinking . i 'm sold . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: what about you ? user interface: do you not think it might need like a kind of a hard plastic inner shell with the actual delicate workings inside , and then a kind of spongy yeah , s thick spongy cover , marketing: mm . kind of like an internal egg . project manager: cover . user interface: so it feels like the whole thing 's spongy , but actually you 're not damaging anything by squeezing it . project manager: plastic inside . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because i mean you could just get carried away with the with the tac industrial designer: i 'd i 'd need to talk to manufacturing again about whether that 's actually possible , but i agree , it 's uh sounds like a nice idea if it is . user interface: yeah . well you do get a bit carried away with things that are tactile , you just wan na stroke them and squeeze them , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: marketing: and with sports on television . project manager: okay . user interface: and marketing: you know . project manager: um the next part they want is the user interface concept . industrial designer: i should i should r marketing: i su project manager: i 'm sorry to push you , but we only have a couple minutes to finish with . marketing: then i 'll just say i support either from a marketing point of view i support either decision that the designers make on that . project manager: okay , and it says interface . what type and what supplements ? user interface: just copy the one on the left . no um a scroll well , like four buttons , up , down , left and right with enter in the middle , that will correspond to a menu on the screen . industrial designer: which i think technically is just push button and uh i 'd certainly support that that user interface: yeah , industrial designer: that brings the cost down quite a lot user interface: i 'd like push buttons with industrial designer: and it 's something that we 're an ex the company 's an expert on . user interface: so push buttons project manager: okay , um that 's that . um this is gon na sound weird , but the next meeting starts in thirty minutes . whew . industrial designer: project manager: and they actually want a look and feel design , user interface design , you can look and see this as well as i can . marketing they want product evaluation . user interface: no , it 's still it 's still plugged in on mine actually . marketing: no we ca n't , actually . project manager: oh . oh my , i 'm sorry . marketing: that 's why i was looking over your shoulder project manager: oh , okay . sorry about that . missed that one . this ought to be fun trying to get this thing to work . ah , ta-da . industrial designer: user interface: now it 's gone again . project manager: ah . industrial designer: you know , i think the the company 's s next project should to design a better overhead device that switches immediately . project manager: yes , because i ca n't even see mine . next meeting starts in thirty minutes , user interface: oh yes . project manager: these are the individual actions . yeah , right . um the look and feel design is for kate , marketing: mm . project manager: uh steph gets the user interface design , you get product evaluation . um the two of you get to play with a pla modelling clay um to do a prototype . user interface: great . project manager: uh and everybody gets individual instructions in the usual way . marketing: sounds good . project manager: anything else we need to do ? user interface: i do n't think so . project manager: go to it . user interface: play-doh . project manager: and that 's the end of this meeting . that 's for her benefit . marketing: that 's really all i got , guys . industrial designer: { vocalsound }

user interface suggested a simple interface with a few scroll wheels on it , but user interface also appreciated the idea of chunky plastic remote control with big buttons , which was simple , easy to use and cost effective .

summarize the discussion about the energy source . </s> project manager: hi kate . okay , carry on . industrial designer: just just carry on . project manager: alright um this is the beginning of the third meeting , the conceptual design meeting . um our agenda should be um that we 're opening the meeting , i have the minutes from the previous meeting are on the shared f drive at this point . um and we should each have a presentation to make . um we have certain decisions to make and we have forty minutes total . it 's twenty five after two at the moment , so forty minutes is five after three , um which i 'll be keeping an eye on the clock for us . okay . um there are the decisions we have to turn to , but we 'll come back to them in a minute after i take us to the minutes of the previous meeting . right um as we remember , i opened the meeting , the four of us were present , the meeting the first meeting 's minutes were reviewed and approved . um sarah , you presented a marketing research report um which pretty much rep represented that fifteen to thirty five year olds uh it has to be hand-held , power , channel , volume , number keys , possibly a speech recognition . and then steph did a second presentation um that those functions plus streamlining them with big user-friendly keys that were easy to use . i think all of us agreed with those things . kate presented a working design of going after going over the basics on the whiteboard um that it should be a simple mass-produced device , because of the twelve and a half pence cost . um but we did talk about possibly using rechargeable batteries and having a docking place as a selling point . um and the new requirements that it for be for tv only um and that it include the l so slogan and colour of the uh corporate design be included . um the corporate image . so we agreed that the target market would be fifteen to thirty five with more money than sense , that were decision makers . alternatively it would be a manufacturer to enclose it with the tv , but it still should meet those parameters . um and that the function we agreed was volume , power , numbers , enter , channels , a way to move between channels , easy to use and hand-held . um at that point we agreed that sarah would look at the current cost of competition , what what do the current ones sell for . um and steph was gon na look at ec ergonomics . kate was gon na look at cost and feasibility of the various possibilities that we discussed . and i was to type up these minutes and work on the final report . is this a fair presentation of what our last meeting was ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . project manager: okay . right . so we 're ready to close that and go back to our that one . right . we 're up to the point of the go back . um the three presentations . so we 're going to pull the plug on me and turn to sarah . is that okay ? is that alright with everybody else ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yep . project manager: especially since kate asked to be last . sarah , i 'm sorry if i misspelled your name , i did n't know whether it was s_a_r_a_ or s_a_r_h_ . marketing: i respond to either . project manager: you respond to whatever you get , huh ? marketing: no worries . project manager: okay . um , did you do your hit user interface: yeah , project manager: ah , there it is . ta-da . marketing: okay , first thing i want to address is um one of the points that florence brought up , which was uh current cost of the competition devices , similar to the ones that stephanie uh showed us and and they 're uh twenty to sixty euros , depending on uh branding . user interface: right . marketing: some of them that have a higher brand recognition are on the more expensive end . but i think that with the current um price that we 're searching for , we 're well within , even on the lower end , of the uh of the market . project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: but i 'm going to move on to more interesting um more vibrant things . so , i investigated the remote control market in greater detail , and my uh the theme of what i was to work on was uh trend watch . user interface: marketing: and project manager: 'kay . user interface: industrial designer: sorry . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: i 'm glad to see the marketing budget is being so well spent on . marketing: project manager: marketing: i know that you all are a distance from cutting edge marketing research , industrial designer: marketing: so you know , i 'm just gon na try to cloak it in really professional terms here . what 's hot , fruit and veg . spongy . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: and this is all over the catwalks , paris , milan , and i 'm talking about clothing , furniture , shoes . industrial designer: marketing: this is really interesting change from past years , project manager: mm . user interface: marketing: because it is much more organic , um some would say approachable . and i think if we 're to refashion our view of what we want in a remote control , we should perhaps think about incorporating technologically interesting fabrics and some of the bold colours into a simple handset . so . i also did a little research on um what again are the most important priorities in uh decision making about uh purchasing . fancy . functional is out . and f the fancy , and that 's exactly the term , i 'm i 'm thinking polished , elegant , you know , kind of innovative , but a cut above . this is twice as important as the next finding , which is technologically innovative . this is interesting , 'cause i think in the last meeting we were talking about technology as being so important , but maybe what 's innovative is having it simple with um with uh technologically superior fabrics or uh , you know , designed in interesting substances . ease of use . again , pretty low , i mean it 's the top three , but each of the uh fancy and technologically innovative are far more important . so i think we should cloak the streamlined remote control device in a series of fruit fruit themed sleeves . user interface: industrial designer: i think that 's a good idea . do n't you ? marketing: y yeah , you know project manager: it sounds like the the uh covers that they use for the remote , you know , your t your cell phone . user interface: yes . marketing: exactly . exactly . i was thinking though that instead of having something uh like patterned , you know , so , you know , something similar to a summer dress . you know , it would have like fruit and veg , is that we actually make these spongy . project manager: mm . marketing: they could be ini initially i thought we could start with kind of um fruit that would suit kind of uh a long uh hand-held , so banana , pineapple and pear . um it could actually the sleeve could take up a lot of the development and the remote control , we 'd just need to get reductionist on it . user interface: marketing: they could be interchangeable , they 're spongy , that goes back to ergonomic , and the youngsters love 'em , fun for the whole family , everyone can have their own . so what we 're talking about is changing . this concept . everyone has a tv remote , but then we add in the fact that they could each have their own individual fruit . user interface: marketing: that 's what 's hot on the catwalks . so , this is my this is what i 'm thinking . project manager: hmm . user interface: project manager: uh-huh mm . in most families , do n't is n't the remote is a remote . marketing: y yeah , but i think i think what this would allow is perhaps a person in the family who had the most opinion about it we all need a remote , project manager: mm . marketing: but the person who is really perhaps active in personalising , i 'm thinking the teenager , the someone fifteen to thirty five would go out and get this additional thing the same way as you mentioned that people would get the cell phone covers . user interface: so when your dad 's sitting there , overriding your decision , going no we 're gon na watch this , you can bring out your own remote and be like zap , no we 're gon na watch this . marketing: yeah . w and plus i think project manager: mm . well actually some households do have three and four tvs marketing: uh yeah . user interface: project manager: and they would have a remote for each one , marketing: yeah . project manager: so . marketing: yeah . so this is an idea and i i you know , this is exactly what the research has uh has shown . so i really open this up to uh any other feedback . this spongy fruit and veg . industrial designer: yeah , i i think we 're gon na have some trouble when we get down to the component design on this . marketing: thanks . alright . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: spongy is gon na be difficult , i 'm afraid . user interface: yep . and as for as for um well budgeting as well , if we 're gon na have lots of different interchangeable components . project manager: hmm . marketing: i i just have my ear to the market , guys . user interface: is this to the market ? industrial designer: yeah , i mean basically we can make these things out of wood , titanium , plastic or rubber . i suppose rubber is the closest to spongy , marketing: is spongiest , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that would add industrial designer: i was thinking titanium myself . user interface: i was thinking titanium , i was thinking it 's just i have been influenced by pictures of ipods , and they 're also minimalist and shiny . marketing: mm-hmm . they are and they they would fulfil the uh first um priority , which is fancy . i think many of us would associate those with fancy . something else we could do is uh call it something that 's fruit and veg oriented . we could call it uh the name . project manager: are we talking about the device itself or the c or a cover for the device that would be an interchangeable cov cover as a separate product ? marketing: well it would be uh a a very simple product that would have a spongy sleeve that would be interchangeable . so project manager: perhaps perhaps that desi that particular suggestion needs to go back to management user interface: yeah , but it 's kind of pointless , is n't it ? project manager: and perhaps go to another group to actually design as a separate product . user interface: yeah . marketing: that , you know , that might be user interface: let 's delegate . project manager: wo would that be agreeable ? marketing: and then we could keep it titanium . industrial designer: yeah . w w would it be helpful if um i described the components a bit , because i think it would give you um maybe bring this discussion back to earth of what we can actually physically do . user interface: yeah , maybe . or project manager: do you wan na be next or you want kate to go next ? user interface: i think possibly it might be more useful if kate went next . project manager: okay , we 'll move the user interface: um industrial designer: user interface: you can even have them in different flavours as well . so that if you just wan na sit there and chew on the remote , it could be like pear flavour , marketing: yeah . or s or smelly . scratchy user interface: yeah . scratch and sniff . marketing: uh well i was really thinking a lot about the i_ uh the imac kind of gel gem tone . industrial designer: right , well marketing: it 's hot on the streets , guys . industrial designer: i i i think some of this um user interface: industrial designer: you 're gon na be a little disappointed with some of the things i have to tell you , but i 'm afraid this is the real world . so um i 've been looking at the the basics of how these devices actually have to work in order to operate , and i 've had some discussions with the ma manufacturing division , who have told me what 's actually available , you know , what the current state of the art in components is , and some of the exciting new things they 've got , but i 'm not sure that it 's quite what you want um . now this is n't a very good overhead , but this is just to show you , this is the innards of a remote control um . i really need a pen or something but uh does my mouse work ? no . um oh yeah , can you see my little mouse pointer ? project manager: mm . industrial designer: right . this is this is the a a a remote that 's been opened up project manager: mm . industrial designer: and that 's the the back of the interface . and this is a push-button one , so you see these little little buttons here , they 're little rubber rubber buttons that go through onto the the board at the back and they push these buttons here . um and we that 's the basic construction that we 've got to got to accommodate . we got to have something that pushes the little buttons that um talk to the chip that encodes the message that sends the the message to the receiver . so um i wan i wan na go through not not just addressing the um uh the the points that you made , sarah , but um doing my presentation in the order i wrote it . so first of all um i wan na talk about what possibilities we 've got for the energy source . marketing: industrial designer: um we can have your bog standard double double a_ batteries in a replaceable um little compartment . we can have a hand sorry user interface: a wind-up . marketing: industrial designer: a wind-up , yeah , which i think is quite an interesting concept for a sorry for a remote control , marketing: project manager: industrial designer: but i it maybe is does n't quite go with the um the fruit and veg . marketing: project manager: alright . industrial designer: um one that one that i think is quite interesting is the kinetic energy source , marketing: project manager: remember , we only have forty minutes industrial designer: where um you you actually get the energy by moving the device , marketing: mm . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: which is quite a ni a nice and neat one . you have to it means that if it 's sitting there for a long time it probably wo n't work , but you have to sort of throw it between your hands every now and then , it 'll work . user interface: industrial designer: or we we had talked about solar power , marketing: hmm . industrial designer: but i thing that we agreed that that 's not so good in the dark . project manager: mm . industrial designer: now i 'm afraid this is the options we 've got on on the case . it can be made of plastic , rubber , wood o if you like , or titanium . marketing: hmm . user interface: industrial designer: um and the nearest we 've got to st to spongy there i guess is rubber , but um i 'm gon na come back to the advantages of titanium , marketing: hmm . industrial designer: and basically it can have a flat surface , a curved surface or a double curved surface , but i think if we wan na use standard components , we 're gon na have difficulty with anything much beyond that . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: okay , what does the interface look like ? um well push button , that 's that 's the one we 're all familiar with . um we can have scroll buttons and the the scroll button can incorporate a push , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: so you can have it like on a mouse where you can use it to go up and down , change volume or channel or something like that and push to select something . um you can have multiple scroll buttons , um this is maybe getting a little bit complicated , but um it 's it the technology is there . and we can also incorporate an lcd display in the remote , but this will increase the cost . um the electronics that actually makes the device work , we 've basically got three , simple , regular , advanced , and the price goes up as we choose each of this . if we want the nice cheap one , the simple , then we can only have push buttons . all the other fancy interface designs go out the window , i 'm afraid . um pay a little bit more for a regular chip and you can have scroll buttons . if you want the advanced chip it obviously costs more , but it that 's what you need if you want the lcd display . and the manufacturing devision tell me that they have recently developed um sample sensor sample speaker devices . now i do n't know what that is , but i think they think it 's quite important and we might want to incorporate it somewhere . um ou our real expertise is in push buttons , i have to say , but maybe you think that 's old technology . marketing: mm . industrial designer: and well i i think we 've got two options . we can either go for a really cheap model , keep all of the costs down , um which means a flat plastic case with an ordinary battery and simple push buttons . or we can have something that looks a bit nicer , i think it , um wo n't necessarily l uh look like a pineapple , but um that may or may not be a good thing . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: sorry . um but it could have an lcd screen and it could have multiple scroll buttons , and it could have the the company 's new development of the um sample sensor and speaker . so , thank you . marketing: that sounds good . any idea you you mentioned that there would be a cost difference . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: um do you have any idea if if this could if the fancy model could be done in twelve euros fifty ? industrial designer: i 'm afraid i do n't have that information available . um manufacturing did n't actually give attach any prices to any of this , i 'm afraid . project manager: hmm . marketing: hmm . because , you know what , i 'm being quite serious when i say that that um the things i mentioned are hot . but i think the important thing might be to choose one . industrial designer: yeah mm-hmm . marketing: you know , if if what you 're telling me is is um some of these things are n't just f are n't feasible , maybe we could something about naming , we could call it , you know , blackberry . user interface: bear bear in mind it has to be the colours and styles of the company , marketing: that 's uh user interface: so what i had been thinking was something chunky and yellow and plastic with black buttons with a logo on it . industrial designer: banana ? marketing: alright , well let 's see then . user interface: but um i i do n't know how important that is to keep it exactly the colours of the real reaction company . marketing: yeah . user interface: it 's just what i 'd understood we 'd be doing . that 's before i heard about all this hot tips about the future , fruit-wise . marketing: yeah . but yeah , industrial designer: we we could we could do um a double curved rubber one , marketing: i 'm trying to streamline mine a little bit . industrial designer: which would allow um say a banana , but um unfortunately i see from my notes that if we do that , we have to have a push button as the interface , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: we ca n't do anything fancier . user interface: shall we wait 'til i 've 'til i 've showed you what well , my extensive presentation on what sort of interfaces are available . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yep . marketing: mm . thank you , kate . project manager: thank you , kate . marketing: mm . user interface: you did seem to include just in more detail what i 've got though . so so mine 's a bit pointless . right . industrial designer: user interface: f_n_ and f_ eight , did you say ? project manager: yes . there we go . industrial designer: user interface: i do n't have it on mine though . marketing: oh i think um florence resolved it by industrial designer: i if you do f_ uh f_n_ f_ eight again , it 's it 'll project manager: do it again . marketing: f_ eight again . project manager: keep doing it until you get it in both you get it there , you get it yours without that one , industrial designer: i think it yeah , you you will do an project manager: and then you get it with both . user interface: should i do it again ? project manager: yeah . marketing: maybe . industrial designer: project manager: this time it should come up both . user interface: right then . i do n't actually have a huge amount of different information then what kate says , project manager: okay . user interface: just that my method was to look at the , well , my my inspirations , which was a big collection of lots of different models of remote controls and other things that use a similar sort of thing , including m_p_ three players , uh like you know , hi-fi remotes , not just television and these things . project manager: mm-hmm . mm . user interface: uh having a think about the feature of ea the features of each ones , um what functions we actually need , and then how to group and arrange these on the actual the actual plastic or rubber hand-held piece . uh i 've been especially interested in the ipod style scroll wheel , which well , i could n't find a the picture of the ipod w only linked to a web browser , so i could n't copy and paste it , but it had a similar thing to this thing on the right . it has uh scroll wheels without without a display , but they they scroll like a computer mouse . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: so i was thinking that uh um a really simple a really simple interface with just a couple of scroll things on it um and then instead of a display the display could appear on the television screen . like i guess an existing sky or cable one does . like , you know , you press enter and it comes up with what 's showing on that channel at the moment , and you can do you can scroll along and it 'll show you what 's on in the next half hour , and you scroll up marketing: user interface: and you can see what 's on the other channels while you 're watching the same channel on the screen . uh but i 'm also equally taken with this chunky plastic kiddie remote , marketing: mm . user interface: um which is really nice and fun and good to hold and nice , big , easy buttons to press , but still quite simple and quite cost effective . so project manager: user interface: what seems kind of ideal for me would be to just have a fairly simple , uh not fancy but not totally minimalist , i mean just pretty simple plastic , probably , i was thinking , yellow and black , just because that 's the company 's colours , with very very few buttons , but that would correspond to a screen that would appear on the television screen , like , you know , just small along the bottom instead of instead of having the ipod style display screen on the actual remotes , which is far too expensive . project manager: mm . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: and when you 've got a screen sitting there in front of you , you might as well have it appearing uh on the screen in front of you , it does n't obscure much of the actual picture you 're watching . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and so on that you can , just much in the same way as an existing sky remote , scroll along , scroll up and down . industrial designer: yeah , i 'd i 'd certainly support that idea . user interface: and uh and i definitely support uh the use of plastic and or rubber . i mean titanium would be great , but i think it might be a bit too expensive and too kinda spacey . if we 're k trying to keep it colourful and slightly organic , then i think titanium 's too futuristic . industrial designer: it 's difficult to make fancy shapes in it as well , we ca n't for example have a double curved case in titanium unfortunately . user interface: yeah . whereas a plastic 's so cheap and easy and mouldable and everything else . industrial designer: marketing: hmm . user interface: uh then industrial designer: and the the having the the the screen on the television screen i think is a good idea , 'cause um otherwise we 're we 're putting up the price not only for putting building the lcd in , but for the electronics as well . user interface: and it 's a little bit pointless as well i think . industrial designer: there is that . user interface: like when when when you 've got when you 've got the screen there , it does n't have to be anything fancy , marketing: it 's a duplication . user interface: just a little menu showing yeah , a menu , you go into one menu and then it can have your different options , whether you wan na change the settings or the you know , your information about programme that 's on at the moment . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i do n't think that 's to taxing to uh s engineer . um . but as for actually arranging them let me go back to the to the picture of the kiddie one . and i quite like it , 'cause it 's just smooth and hand-held and it 's got these easily reachable buttons that quite nicely uh spaced out , so something a bit like that with buttons arranged in a kind of circle . up , down , left , right . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: do you want scroll buttons in that as well ? user interface: i i was thinking not actually scroll , like a like mouse scroll , but you know , a i ca n't quite d uh describe it . you see on the one on the right , down at the bottom , is the mouse . yeah , see where the mouse is , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: like this s style thing where you c have up , down , left and right . and enter in the middle , industrial designer: right . user interface: so you pick your menu and then your different options and when when you click on each one , it you can go into a new menu for that . i 'm getting a bit uh specific here . marketing: user interface: really we 'd have to use something to show you , industrial designer: yeah . i think i think that 's a g nice clean design , user interface: but industrial designer: it 's playing to our strengths which are in push button technology . marketing: to uh m make it . user interface: if i do n't think i can get it up on the screen . ah here we go . right . marketing: oh nice . user interface: well , marketing: um hmm . user interface: the ipod spinning wheel is uh really complicated . project manager: huh . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: it does scroll , but it is hugely complicated . what else have we got ? marketing: mm . wow . user interface: them , they 're terrible . but they all have this this feature of this uh it 's not quite a scroll wheel , but it 's a kind of selection in this circle , project manager: it 's a selection wheel . user interface: which i think is a really good idea . industrial designer: but we can implement it with simple push buttons , which is much cheaper . user interface: yeah , like up , down , left and right . which is good . and then and then yeah , so i mean either a channel up and down , volume up and down , next appearing programmes up and down , uh and then also when you get into the different menus on the screen , it 's got your things like settings and contrast up and down . project manager: okay . user interface: so all you really need is these four buttons with the enter in the middle . project manager: okay . user interface: and that 's it . industrial designer: in fact user interface: look at look at this one . industrial designer: oh that 's really nice . user interface: almost impossible to misplace or l or lose . project manager: marketing: do you think with um project manager: user interface: might take up your whole living room . marketing: it seems that that uh you guys are quite keen on the plastic , perhaps the something reminiscent of the child 's remote . do you think we could put it in a in a fruit colour ? and have it abstract . you know , user interface: possibly . marketing: we could call like a fruit name , industrial designer: hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: but it would be a little more abstract . industrial designer: mm . we we could actually do it in rubber instead of plastic if you 'd rather if you feel if you like the spongy user interface: that also is possible . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: just marketing: i 'm just just throwing out ideas . project manager: or call it a or call it a banana and have it in yellow . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah . i 'm thinking maybe we need to be a little bit more abstract if the design constraints are so project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: uh just something else i need to bring to your attention is have you have you seen these on a remote ? this is actually the volume up and down , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but they both say v_ on them , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: which , when you first look at it , you expect that to be the down , because it looks like a downward pointing arrow , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: hmm . user interface: but it 's actually the v_ to indicate that it 's the volume , so uh we do need to avoid little ambiguities like these . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: nice . good point . user interface: but we would n't have a specific volume up and down . if we 're having the scroll wheel , then it 's gon na double up as all the other up and down functions . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: but then , that 's complicated . project manager: i wan na thank you all for all your presentations . we have about ten minutes left , in which time we have to make some decisions on the remote control concepts . um and i think you all have been self-stimulating of working together . um we need to come up with some specifics of the components , um the materials , things like making the decision on the energy um and the case and the interface type things . so let 's mm . right . they want us to decide what form of energy are we going to use , which the choices that we 've discussed were pretty much battery , kinetic or solar . um this is where kate 's expertise comes in , and our decision making will be a little bit guided by kate at this point . industrial designer: project manager: the you were saying that the kinetic would be useful , that is you just have to move it some and you 'd be able to use it um as opposed to a battery that you have to either put it in a recharger or um keep replacing the batteries . um or solar that you 'd have difficulty with it if it 's a dark day , that it 'll die on you , and no way to do it . that 's the day you wan na use the tv . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um so what 's our pleasure here , what would be the cost consequences of each of the three ? industrial designer: oh unfortunately i do n't have costing information . project manager: okay . industrial designer: i i in terms of workability , i i think the the two front-runners are the standard battery or the kinetic , project manager: mm 'kay . industrial designer: but i 'm sorry i do n't figures on the difference in cost . project manager: what 's the uh feelings of the group on the kinetic ? marketing: i 've used kinetic in terms of watches and it 's very very uh handy , you do n't even notice um that it 's there . user interface: it sounds great . i 've never come across it before , but it sounds fantastic . sounds like it could be g a really good economical marketing: it 's user interface: it would make the whole thing a lot lighter , more convenient . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: hmm . marketing: it could tie in with the fanciful design project manager: hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: as uh , you know , user interface: 'cause it 's really a quite attractive thought , marketing: throw the banana , you know , just got ta keep it moving . user interface: is n't it ? it 's like yeah , project manager: so the consensus seems to be use the kinetic if it 's at all possible . user interface: a good selling point . marketing: be user interface: but it does depend how much i mean how much it costs and how much more development and research it needs . project manager: it costs . mm . industrial designer: and and how much you do have to keep it moving , marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . industrial designer: 'cause i 'm conscious that watching tv can be quite a sed sedentary activity . marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: mm . marketing: but i could market that as a um as a a i was thinking actually a a cost saver down the road , in terms of battery , you know . user interface: do your exercises while you 're watching the tv . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: true , yeah , m more more environmentally friendly . user interface: yeah , that 's what i was thinking as well . marketing: mm-hmm . you know , project manager: yeah . marketing: kind of the project manager: thanks for the reminder for five minutes to finish , thanks . industrial designer: oh right , okay , project manager: um the next thing that they wanted us to do was look at chip on print as a decision . industrial designer: i 'd that that 's something i maybe should have covered . um chip on print is just a manufacturing technique project manager: oh . industrial designer: um and i would certainly recommend it , i think , because i 'm not sure i have an alternative . project manager: okay . user interface: project manager: what about the ca industrial designer: i i it it 's just the way that the the the uh th the way it 's ac it 's actually built project manager: yeah . oh , the way we uh-huh . industrial designer: and you you print onto the circuit board like you might print onto paper . project manager: oh , okay . um what about the case ? i think they 're talking there about do we want wood , plastic , titanium or rubber , industrial designer: project manager: and i think we 've discussed not having titanium . one , it 's too expensive , um and second , it wo n't do this double um curves . um we 've sort of eliminated wood . we said plastic or rubber . what 's the pleasure ? industrial designer: well if if sarah 's keen on a spongy feel , the the rubber that we 're talking about is the same as you have in those little stress balls , so it 's marketing: that 's exactly what i was thinking . i 'm sold . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: what about you ? user interface: do you not think it might need like a kind of a hard plastic inner shell with the actual delicate workings inside , and then a kind of spongy yeah , s thick spongy cover , marketing: mm . kind of like an internal egg . project manager: cover . user interface: so it feels like the whole thing 's spongy , but actually you 're not damaging anything by squeezing it . project manager: plastic inside . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because i mean you could just get carried away with the with the tac industrial designer: i 'd i 'd need to talk to manufacturing again about whether that 's actually possible , but i agree , it 's uh sounds like a nice idea if it is . user interface: yeah . well you do get a bit carried away with things that are tactile , you just wan na stroke them and squeeze them , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: marketing: and with sports on television . project manager: okay . user interface: and marketing: you know . project manager: um the next part they want is the user interface concept . industrial designer: i should i should r marketing: i su project manager: i 'm sorry to push you , but we only have a couple minutes to finish with . marketing: then i 'll just say i support either from a marketing point of view i support either decision that the designers make on that . project manager: okay , and it says interface . what type and what supplements ? user interface: just copy the one on the left . no um a scroll well , like four buttons , up , down , left and right with enter in the middle , that will correspond to a menu on the screen . industrial designer: which i think technically is just push button and uh i 'd certainly support that that user interface: yeah , industrial designer: that brings the cost down quite a lot user interface: i 'd like push buttons with industrial designer: and it 's something that we 're an ex the company 's an expert on . user interface: so push buttons project manager: okay , um that 's that . um this is gon na sound weird , but the next meeting starts in thirty minutes . whew . industrial designer: project manager: and they actually want a look and feel design , user interface design , you can look and see this as well as i can . marketing they want product evaluation . user interface: no , it 's still it 's still plugged in on mine actually . marketing: no we ca n't , actually . project manager: oh . oh my , i 'm sorry . marketing: that 's why i was looking over your shoulder project manager: oh , okay . sorry about that . missed that one . this ought to be fun trying to get this thing to work . ah , ta-da . industrial designer: user interface: now it 's gone again . project manager: ah . industrial designer: you know , i think the the company 's s next project should to design a better overhead device that switches immediately . project manager: yes , because i ca n't even see mine . next meeting starts in thirty minutes , user interface: oh yes . project manager: these are the individual actions . yeah , right . um the look and feel design is for kate , marketing: mm . project manager: uh steph gets the user interface design , you get product evaluation . um the two of you get to play with a pla modelling clay um to do a prototype . user interface: great . project manager: uh and everybody gets individual instructions in the usual way . marketing: sounds good . project manager: anything else we need to do ? user interface: i do n't think so . project manager: go to it . user interface: play-doh . project manager: and that 's the end of this meeting . that 's for her benefit . marketing: that 's really all i got , guys . industrial designer: { vocalsound }

the group rejected the idea of wind-up because it was n't suitable for the theme of the remote control , and the idea of solar power because it was inconvenient to use in darkness . industrial designer suggested using the kinetic as the source of power . this opinion was accepted by the group because of its convenience , light weight , fancy design and the good selling point of the environment .

why did the group suggest using the kinetic as the energy power ? </s> project manager: hi kate . okay , carry on . industrial designer: just just carry on . project manager: alright um this is the beginning of the third meeting , the conceptual design meeting . um our agenda should be um that we 're opening the meeting , i have the minutes from the previous meeting are on the shared f drive at this point . um and we should each have a presentation to make . um we have certain decisions to make and we have forty minutes total . it 's twenty five after two at the moment , so forty minutes is five after three , um which i 'll be keeping an eye on the clock for us . okay . um there are the decisions we have to turn to , but we 'll come back to them in a minute after i take us to the minutes of the previous meeting . right um as we remember , i opened the meeting , the four of us were present , the meeting the first meeting 's minutes were reviewed and approved . um sarah , you presented a marketing research report um which pretty much rep represented that fifteen to thirty five year olds uh it has to be hand-held , power , channel , volume , number keys , possibly a speech recognition . and then steph did a second presentation um that those functions plus streamlining them with big user-friendly keys that were easy to use . i think all of us agreed with those things . kate presented a working design of going after going over the basics on the whiteboard um that it should be a simple mass-produced device , because of the twelve and a half pence cost . um but we did talk about possibly using rechargeable batteries and having a docking place as a selling point . um and the new requirements that it for be for tv only um and that it include the l so slogan and colour of the uh corporate design be included . um the corporate image . so we agreed that the target market would be fifteen to thirty five with more money than sense , that were decision makers . alternatively it would be a manufacturer to enclose it with the tv , but it still should meet those parameters . um and that the function we agreed was volume , power , numbers , enter , channels , a way to move between channels , easy to use and hand-held . um at that point we agreed that sarah would look at the current cost of competition , what what do the current ones sell for . um and steph was gon na look at ec ergonomics . kate was gon na look at cost and feasibility of the various possibilities that we discussed . and i was to type up these minutes and work on the final report . is this a fair presentation of what our last meeting was ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . project manager: okay . right . so we 're ready to close that and go back to our that one . right . we 're up to the point of the go back . um the three presentations . so we 're going to pull the plug on me and turn to sarah . is that okay ? is that alright with everybody else ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yep . project manager: especially since kate asked to be last . sarah , i 'm sorry if i misspelled your name , i did n't know whether it was s_a_r_a_ or s_a_r_h_ . marketing: i respond to either . project manager: you respond to whatever you get , huh ? marketing: no worries . project manager: okay . um , did you do your hit user interface: yeah , project manager: ah , there it is . ta-da . marketing: okay , first thing i want to address is um one of the points that florence brought up , which was uh current cost of the competition devices , similar to the ones that stephanie uh showed us and and they 're uh twenty to sixty euros , depending on uh branding . user interface: right . marketing: some of them that have a higher brand recognition are on the more expensive end . but i think that with the current um price that we 're searching for , we 're well within , even on the lower end , of the uh of the market . project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: but i 'm going to move on to more interesting um more vibrant things . so , i investigated the remote control market in greater detail , and my uh the theme of what i was to work on was uh trend watch . user interface: marketing: and project manager: 'kay . user interface: industrial designer: sorry . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: i 'm glad to see the marketing budget is being so well spent on . marketing: project manager: marketing: i know that you all are a distance from cutting edge marketing research , industrial designer: marketing: so you know , i 'm just gon na try to cloak it in really professional terms here . what 's hot , fruit and veg . spongy . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: and this is all over the catwalks , paris , milan , and i 'm talking about clothing , furniture , shoes . industrial designer: marketing: this is really interesting change from past years , project manager: mm . user interface: marketing: because it is much more organic , um some would say approachable . and i think if we 're to refashion our view of what we want in a remote control , we should perhaps think about incorporating technologically interesting fabrics and some of the bold colours into a simple handset . so . i also did a little research on um what again are the most important priorities in uh decision making about uh purchasing . fancy . functional is out . and f the fancy , and that 's exactly the term , i 'm i 'm thinking polished , elegant , you know , kind of innovative , but a cut above . this is twice as important as the next finding , which is technologically innovative . this is interesting , 'cause i think in the last meeting we were talking about technology as being so important , but maybe what 's innovative is having it simple with um with uh technologically superior fabrics or uh , you know , designed in interesting substances . ease of use . again , pretty low , i mean it 's the top three , but each of the uh fancy and technologically innovative are far more important . so i think we should cloak the streamlined remote control device in a series of fruit fruit themed sleeves . user interface: industrial designer: i think that 's a good idea . do n't you ? marketing: y yeah , you know project manager: it sounds like the the uh covers that they use for the remote , you know , your t your cell phone . user interface: yes . marketing: exactly . exactly . i was thinking though that instead of having something uh like patterned , you know , so , you know , something similar to a summer dress . you know , it would have like fruit and veg , is that we actually make these spongy . project manager: mm . marketing: they could be ini initially i thought we could start with kind of um fruit that would suit kind of uh a long uh hand-held , so banana , pineapple and pear . um it could actually the sleeve could take up a lot of the development and the remote control , we 'd just need to get reductionist on it . user interface: marketing: they could be interchangeable , they 're spongy , that goes back to ergonomic , and the youngsters love 'em , fun for the whole family , everyone can have their own . so what we 're talking about is changing . this concept . everyone has a tv remote , but then we add in the fact that they could each have their own individual fruit . user interface: marketing: that 's what 's hot on the catwalks . so , this is my this is what i 'm thinking . project manager: hmm . user interface: project manager: uh-huh mm . in most families , do n't is n't the remote is a remote . marketing: y yeah , but i think i think what this would allow is perhaps a person in the family who had the most opinion about it we all need a remote , project manager: mm . marketing: but the person who is really perhaps active in personalising , i 'm thinking the teenager , the someone fifteen to thirty five would go out and get this additional thing the same way as you mentioned that people would get the cell phone covers . user interface: so when your dad 's sitting there , overriding your decision , going no we 're gon na watch this , you can bring out your own remote and be like zap , no we 're gon na watch this . marketing: yeah . w and plus i think project manager: mm . well actually some households do have three and four tvs marketing: uh yeah . user interface: project manager: and they would have a remote for each one , marketing: yeah . project manager: so . marketing: yeah . so this is an idea and i i you know , this is exactly what the research has uh has shown . so i really open this up to uh any other feedback . this spongy fruit and veg . industrial designer: yeah , i i think we 're gon na have some trouble when we get down to the component design on this . marketing: thanks . alright . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: spongy is gon na be difficult , i 'm afraid . user interface: yep . and as for as for um well budgeting as well , if we 're gon na have lots of different interchangeable components . project manager: hmm . marketing: i i just have my ear to the market , guys . user interface: is this to the market ? industrial designer: yeah , i mean basically we can make these things out of wood , titanium , plastic or rubber . i suppose rubber is the closest to spongy , marketing: is spongiest , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that would add industrial designer: i was thinking titanium myself . user interface: i was thinking titanium , i was thinking it 's just i have been influenced by pictures of ipods , and they 're also minimalist and shiny . marketing: mm-hmm . they are and they they would fulfil the uh first um priority , which is fancy . i think many of us would associate those with fancy . something else we could do is uh call it something that 's fruit and veg oriented . we could call it uh the name . project manager: are we talking about the device itself or the c or a cover for the device that would be an interchangeable cov cover as a separate product ? marketing: well it would be uh a a very simple product that would have a spongy sleeve that would be interchangeable . so project manager: perhaps perhaps that desi that particular suggestion needs to go back to management user interface: yeah , but it 's kind of pointless , is n't it ? project manager: and perhaps go to another group to actually design as a separate product . user interface: yeah . marketing: that , you know , that might be user interface: let 's delegate . project manager: wo would that be agreeable ? marketing: and then we could keep it titanium . industrial designer: yeah . w w would it be helpful if um i described the components a bit , because i think it would give you um maybe bring this discussion back to earth of what we can actually physically do . user interface: yeah , maybe . or project manager: do you wan na be next or you want kate to go next ? user interface: i think possibly it might be more useful if kate went next . project manager: okay , we 'll move the user interface: um industrial designer: user interface: you can even have them in different flavours as well . so that if you just wan na sit there and chew on the remote , it could be like pear flavour , marketing: yeah . or s or smelly . scratchy user interface: yeah . scratch and sniff . marketing: uh well i was really thinking a lot about the i_ uh the imac kind of gel gem tone . industrial designer: right , well marketing: it 's hot on the streets , guys . industrial designer: i i i think some of this um user interface: industrial designer: you 're gon na be a little disappointed with some of the things i have to tell you , but i 'm afraid this is the real world . so um i 've been looking at the the basics of how these devices actually have to work in order to operate , and i 've had some discussions with the ma manufacturing division , who have told me what 's actually available , you know , what the current state of the art in components is , and some of the exciting new things they 've got , but i 'm not sure that it 's quite what you want um . now this is n't a very good overhead , but this is just to show you , this is the innards of a remote control um . i really need a pen or something but uh does my mouse work ? no . um oh yeah , can you see my little mouse pointer ? project manager: mm . industrial designer: right . this is this is the a a a remote that 's been opened up project manager: mm . industrial designer: and that 's the the back of the interface . and this is a push-button one , so you see these little little buttons here , they 're little rubber rubber buttons that go through onto the the board at the back and they push these buttons here . um and we that 's the basic construction that we 've got to got to accommodate . we got to have something that pushes the little buttons that um talk to the chip that encodes the message that sends the the message to the receiver . so um i wan i wan na go through not not just addressing the um uh the the points that you made , sarah , but um doing my presentation in the order i wrote it . so first of all um i wan na talk about what possibilities we 've got for the energy source . marketing: industrial designer: um we can have your bog standard double double a_ batteries in a replaceable um little compartment . we can have a hand sorry user interface: a wind-up . marketing: industrial designer: a wind-up , yeah , which i think is quite an interesting concept for a sorry for a remote control , marketing: project manager: industrial designer: but i it maybe is does n't quite go with the um the fruit and veg . marketing: project manager: alright . industrial designer: um one that one that i think is quite interesting is the kinetic energy source , marketing: project manager: remember , we only have forty minutes industrial designer: where um you you actually get the energy by moving the device , marketing: mm . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: which is quite a ni a nice and neat one . you have to it means that if it 's sitting there for a long time it probably wo n't work , but you have to sort of throw it between your hands every now and then , it 'll work . user interface: industrial designer: or we we had talked about solar power , marketing: hmm . industrial designer: but i thing that we agreed that that 's not so good in the dark . project manager: mm . industrial designer: now i 'm afraid this is the options we 've got on on the case . it can be made of plastic , rubber , wood o if you like , or titanium . marketing: hmm . user interface: industrial designer: um and the nearest we 've got to st to spongy there i guess is rubber , but um i 'm gon na come back to the advantages of titanium , marketing: hmm . industrial designer: and basically it can have a flat surface , a curved surface or a double curved surface , but i think if we wan na use standard components , we 're gon na have difficulty with anything much beyond that . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: okay , what does the interface look like ? um well push button , that 's that 's the one we 're all familiar with . um we can have scroll buttons and the the scroll button can incorporate a push , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: so you can have it like on a mouse where you can use it to go up and down , change volume or channel or something like that and push to select something . um you can have multiple scroll buttons , um this is maybe getting a little bit complicated , but um it 's it the technology is there . and we can also incorporate an lcd display in the remote , but this will increase the cost . um the electronics that actually makes the device work , we 've basically got three , simple , regular , advanced , and the price goes up as we choose each of this . if we want the nice cheap one , the simple , then we can only have push buttons . all the other fancy interface designs go out the window , i 'm afraid . um pay a little bit more for a regular chip and you can have scroll buttons . if you want the advanced chip it obviously costs more , but it that 's what you need if you want the lcd display . and the manufacturing devision tell me that they have recently developed um sample sensor sample speaker devices . now i do n't know what that is , but i think they think it 's quite important and we might want to incorporate it somewhere . um ou our real expertise is in push buttons , i have to say , but maybe you think that 's old technology . marketing: mm . industrial designer: and well i i think we 've got two options . we can either go for a really cheap model , keep all of the costs down , um which means a flat plastic case with an ordinary battery and simple push buttons . or we can have something that looks a bit nicer , i think it , um wo n't necessarily l uh look like a pineapple , but um that may or may not be a good thing . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: sorry . um but it could have an lcd screen and it could have multiple scroll buttons , and it could have the the company 's new development of the um sample sensor and speaker . so , thank you . marketing: that sounds good . any idea you you mentioned that there would be a cost difference . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: um do you have any idea if if this could if the fancy model could be done in twelve euros fifty ? industrial designer: i 'm afraid i do n't have that information available . um manufacturing did n't actually give attach any prices to any of this , i 'm afraid . project manager: hmm . marketing: hmm . because , you know what , i 'm being quite serious when i say that that um the things i mentioned are hot . but i think the important thing might be to choose one . industrial designer: yeah mm-hmm . marketing: you know , if if what you 're telling me is is um some of these things are n't just f are n't feasible , maybe we could something about naming , we could call it , you know , blackberry . user interface: bear bear in mind it has to be the colours and styles of the company , marketing: that 's uh user interface: so what i had been thinking was something chunky and yellow and plastic with black buttons with a logo on it . industrial designer: banana ? marketing: alright , well let 's see then . user interface: but um i i do n't know how important that is to keep it exactly the colours of the real reaction company . marketing: yeah . user interface: it 's just what i 'd understood we 'd be doing . that 's before i heard about all this hot tips about the future , fruit-wise . marketing: yeah . but yeah , industrial designer: we we could we could do um a double curved rubber one , marketing: i 'm trying to streamline mine a little bit . industrial designer: which would allow um say a banana , but um unfortunately i see from my notes that if we do that , we have to have a push button as the interface , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: we ca n't do anything fancier . user interface: shall we wait 'til i 've 'til i 've showed you what well , my extensive presentation on what sort of interfaces are available . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yep . marketing: mm . thank you , kate . project manager: thank you , kate . marketing: mm . user interface: you did seem to include just in more detail what i 've got though . so so mine 's a bit pointless . right . industrial designer: user interface: f_n_ and f_ eight , did you say ? project manager: yes . there we go . industrial designer: user interface: i do n't have it on mine though . marketing: oh i think um florence resolved it by industrial designer: i if you do f_ uh f_n_ f_ eight again , it 's it 'll project manager: do it again . marketing: f_ eight again . project manager: keep doing it until you get it in both you get it there , you get it yours without that one , industrial designer: i think it yeah , you you will do an project manager: and then you get it with both . user interface: should i do it again ? project manager: yeah . marketing: maybe . industrial designer: project manager: this time it should come up both . user interface: right then . i do n't actually have a huge amount of different information then what kate says , project manager: okay . user interface: just that my method was to look at the , well , my my inspirations , which was a big collection of lots of different models of remote controls and other things that use a similar sort of thing , including m_p_ three players , uh like you know , hi-fi remotes , not just television and these things . project manager: mm-hmm . mm . user interface: uh having a think about the feature of ea the features of each ones , um what functions we actually need , and then how to group and arrange these on the actual the actual plastic or rubber hand-held piece . uh i 've been especially interested in the ipod style scroll wheel , which well , i could n't find a the picture of the ipod w only linked to a web browser , so i could n't copy and paste it , but it had a similar thing to this thing on the right . it has uh scroll wheels without without a display , but they they scroll like a computer mouse . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: so i was thinking that uh um a really simple a really simple interface with just a couple of scroll things on it um and then instead of a display the display could appear on the television screen . like i guess an existing sky or cable one does . like , you know , you press enter and it comes up with what 's showing on that channel at the moment , and you can do you can scroll along and it 'll show you what 's on in the next half hour , and you scroll up marketing: user interface: and you can see what 's on the other channels while you 're watching the same channel on the screen . uh but i 'm also equally taken with this chunky plastic kiddie remote , marketing: mm . user interface: um which is really nice and fun and good to hold and nice , big , easy buttons to press , but still quite simple and quite cost effective . so project manager: user interface: what seems kind of ideal for me would be to just have a fairly simple , uh not fancy but not totally minimalist , i mean just pretty simple plastic , probably , i was thinking , yellow and black , just because that 's the company 's colours , with very very few buttons , but that would correspond to a screen that would appear on the television screen , like , you know , just small along the bottom instead of instead of having the ipod style display screen on the actual remotes , which is far too expensive . project manager: mm . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: and when you 've got a screen sitting there in front of you , you might as well have it appearing uh on the screen in front of you , it does n't obscure much of the actual picture you 're watching . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and so on that you can , just much in the same way as an existing sky remote , scroll along , scroll up and down . industrial designer: yeah , i 'd i 'd certainly support that idea . user interface: and uh and i definitely support uh the use of plastic and or rubber . i mean titanium would be great , but i think it might be a bit too expensive and too kinda spacey . if we 're k trying to keep it colourful and slightly organic , then i think titanium 's too futuristic . industrial designer: it 's difficult to make fancy shapes in it as well , we ca n't for example have a double curved case in titanium unfortunately . user interface: yeah . whereas a plastic 's so cheap and easy and mouldable and everything else . industrial designer: marketing: hmm . user interface: uh then industrial designer: and the the having the the the screen on the television screen i think is a good idea , 'cause um otherwise we 're we 're putting up the price not only for putting building the lcd in , but for the electronics as well . user interface: and it 's a little bit pointless as well i think . industrial designer: there is that . user interface: like when when when you 've got when you 've got the screen there , it does n't have to be anything fancy , marketing: it 's a duplication . user interface: just a little menu showing yeah , a menu , you go into one menu and then it can have your different options , whether you wan na change the settings or the you know , your information about programme that 's on at the moment . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i do n't think that 's to taxing to uh s engineer . um . but as for actually arranging them let me go back to the to the picture of the kiddie one . and i quite like it , 'cause it 's just smooth and hand-held and it 's got these easily reachable buttons that quite nicely uh spaced out , so something a bit like that with buttons arranged in a kind of circle . up , down , left , right . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: do you want scroll buttons in that as well ? user interface: i i was thinking not actually scroll , like a like mouse scroll , but you know , a i ca n't quite d uh describe it . you see on the one on the right , down at the bottom , is the mouse . yeah , see where the mouse is , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: like this s style thing where you c have up , down , left and right . and enter in the middle , industrial designer: right . user interface: so you pick your menu and then your different options and when when you click on each one , it you can go into a new menu for that . i 'm getting a bit uh specific here . marketing: user interface: really we 'd have to use something to show you , industrial designer: yeah . i think i think that 's a g nice clean design , user interface: but industrial designer: it 's playing to our strengths which are in push button technology . marketing: to uh m make it . user interface: if i do n't think i can get it up on the screen . ah here we go . right . marketing: oh nice . user interface: well , marketing: um hmm . user interface: the ipod spinning wheel is uh really complicated . project manager: huh . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: it does scroll , but it is hugely complicated . what else have we got ? marketing: mm . wow . user interface: them , they 're terrible . but they all have this this feature of this uh it 's not quite a scroll wheel , but it 's a kind of selection in this circle , project manager: it 's a selection wheel . user interface: which i think is a really good idea . industrial designer: but we can implement it with simple push buttons , which is much cheaper . user interface: yeah , like up , down , left and right . which is good . and then and then yeah , so i mean either a channel up and down , volume up and down , next appearing programmes up and down , uh and then also when you get into the different menus on the screen , it 's got your things like settings and contrast up and down . project manager: okay . user interface: so all you really need is these four buttons with the enter in the middle . project manager: okay . user interface: and that 's it . industrial designer: in fact user interface: look at look at this one . industrial designer: oh that 's really nice . user interface: almost impossible to misplace or l or lose . project manager: marketing: do you think with um project manager: user interface: might take up your whole living room . marketing: it seems that that uh you guys are quite keen on the plastic , perhaps the something reminiscent of the child 's remote . do you think we could put it in a in a fruit colour ? and have it abstract . you know , user interface: possibly . marketing: we could call like a fruit name , industrial designer: hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: but it would be a little more abstract . industrial designer: mm . we we could actually do it in rubber instead of plastic if you 'd rather if you feel if you like the spongy user interface: that also is possible . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: just marketing: i 'm just just throwing out ideas . project manager: or call it a or call it a banana and have it in yellow . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah . i 'm thinking maybe we need to be a little bit more abstract if the design constraints are so project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: uh just something else i need to bring to your attention is have you have you seen these on a remote ? this is actually the volume up and down , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but they both say v_ on them , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: which , when you first look at it , you expect that to be the down , because it looks like a downward pointing arrow , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: hmm . user interface: but it 's actually the v_ to indicate that it 's the volume , so uh we do need to avoid little ambiguities like these . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: nice . good point . user interface: but we would n't have a specific volume up and down . if we 're having the scroll wheel , then it 's gon na double up as all the other up and down functions . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: but then , that 's complicated . project manager: i wan na thank you all for all your presentations . we have about ten minutes left , in which time we have to make some decisions on the remote control concepts . um and i think you all have been self-stimulating of working together . um we need to come up with some specifics of the components , um the materials , things like making the decision on the energy um and the case and the interface type things . so let 's mm . right . they want us to decide what form of energy are we going to use , which the choices that we 've discussed were pretty much battery , kinetic or solar . um this is where kate 's expertise comes in , and our decision making will be a little bit guided by kate at this point . industrial designer: project manager: the you were saying that the kinetic would be useful , that is you just have to move it some and you 'd be able to use it um as opposed to a battery that you have to either put it in a recharger or um keep replacing the batteries . um or solar that you 'd have difficulty with it if it 's a dark day , that it 'll die on you , and no way to do it . that 's the day you wan na use the tv . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um so what 's our pleasure here , what would be the cost consequences of each of the three ? industrial designer: oh unfortunately i do n't have costing information . project manager: okay . industrial designer: i i in terms of workability , i i think the the two front-runners are the standard battery or the kinetic , project manager: mm 'kay . industrial designer: but i 'm sorry i do n't figures on the difference in cost . project manager: what 's the uh feelings of the group on the kinetic ? marketing: i 've used kinetic in terms of watches and it 's very very uh handy , you do n't even notice um that it 's there . user interface: it sounds great . i 've never come across it before , but it sounds fantastic . sounds like it could be g a really good economical marketing: it 's user interface: it would make the whole thing a lot lighter , more convenient . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: hmm . marketing: it could tie in with the fanciful design project manager: hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: as uh , you know , user interface: 'cause it 's really a quite attractive thought , marketing: throw the banana , you know , just got ta keep it moving . user interface: is n't it ? it 's like yeah , project manager: so the consensus seems to be use the kinetic if it 's at all possible . user interface: a good selling point . marketing: be user interface: but it does depend how much i mean how much it costs and how much more development and research it needs . project manager: it costs . mm . industrial designer: and and how much you do have to keep it moving , marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . industrial designer: 'cause i 'm conscious that watching tv can be quite a sed sedentary activity . marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: mm . marketing: but i could market that as a um as a a i was thinking actually a a cost saver down the road , in terms of battery , you know . user interface: do your exercises while you 're watching the tv . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: true , yeah , m more more environmentally friendly . user interface: yeah , that 's what i was thinking as well . marketing: mm-hmm . you know , project manager: yeah . marketing: kind of the project manager: thanks for the reminder for five minutes to finish , thanks . industrial designer: oh right , okay , project manager: um the next thing that they wanted us to do was look at chip on print as a decision . industrial designer: i 'd that that 's something i maybe should have covered . um chip on print is just a manufacturing technique project manager: oh . industrial designer: um and i would certainly recommend it , i think , because i 'm not sure i have an alternative . project manager: okay . user interface: project manager: what about the ca industrial designer: i i it it 's just the way that the the the uh th the way it 's ac it 's actually built project manager: yeah . oh , the way we uh-huh . industrial designer: and you you print onto the circuit board like you might print onto paper . project manager: oh , okay . um what about the case ? i think they 're talking there about do we want wood , plastic , titanium or rubber , industrial designer: project manager: and i think we 've discussed not having titanium . one , it 's too expensive , um and second , it wo n't do this double um curves . um we 've sort of eliminated wood . we said plastic or rubber . what 's the pleasure ? industrial designer: well if if sarah 's keen on a spongy feel , the the rubber that we 're talking about is the same as you have in those little stress balls , so it 's marketing: that 's exactly what i was thinking . i 'm sold . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: what about you ? user interface: do you not think it might need like a kind of a hard plastic inner shell with the actual delicate workings inside , and then a kind of spongy yeah , s thick spongy cover , marketing: mm . kind of like an internal egg . project manager: cover . user interface: so it feels like the whole thing 's spongy , but actually you 're not damaging anything by squeezing it . project manager: plastic inside . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because i mean you could just get carried away with the with the tac industrial designer: i 'd i 'd need to talk to manufacturing again about whether that 's actually possible , but i agree , it 's uh sounds like a nice idea if it is . user interface: yeah . well you do get a bit carried away with things that are tactile , you just wan na stroke them and squeeze them , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: marketing: and with sports on television . project manager: okay . user interface: and marketing: you know . project manager: um the next part they want is the user interface concept . industrial designer: i should i should r marketing: i su project manager: i 'm sorry to push you , but we only have a couple minutes to finish with . marketing: then i 'll just say i support either from a marketing point of view i support either decision that the designers make on that . project manager: okay , and it says interface . what type and what supplements ? user interface: just copy the one on the left . no um a scroll well , like four buttons , up , down , left and right with enter in the middle , that will correspond to a menu on the screen . industrial designer: which i think technically is just push button and uh i 'd certainly support that that user interface: yeah , industrial designer: that brings the cost down quite a lot user interface: i 'd like push buttons with industrial designer: and it 's something that we 're an ex the company 's an expert on . user interface: so push buttons project manager: okay , um that 's that . um this is gon na sound weird , but the next meeting starts in thirty minutes . whew . industrial designer: project manager: and they actually want a look and feel design , user interface design , you can look and see this as well as i can . marketing they want product evaluation . user interface: no , it 's still it 's still plugged in on mine actually . marketing: no we ca n't , actually . project manager: oh . oh my , i 'm sorry . marketing: that 's why i was looking over your shoulder project manager: oh , okay . sorry about that . missed that one . this ought to be fun trying to get this thing to work . ah , ta-da . industrial designer: user interface: now it 's gone again . project manager: ah . industrial designer: you know , i think the the company 's s next project should to design a better overhead device that switches immediately . project manager: yes , because i ca n't even see mine . next meeting starts in thirty minutes , user interface: oh yes . project manager: these are the individual actions . yeah , right . um the look and feel design is for kate , marketing: mm . project manager: uh steph gets the user interface design , you get product evaluation . um the two of you get to play with a pla modelling clay um to do a prototype . user interface: great . project manager: uh and everybody gets individual instructions in the usual way . marketing: sounds good . project manager: anything else we need to do ? user interface: i do n't think so . project manager: go to it . user interface: play-doh . project manager: and that 's the end of this meeting . that 's for her benefit . marketing: that 's really all i got , guys . industrial designer: { vocalsound }

the kinetic was both useful and convenient . users only had to move it instead of putting it into a recharger or changing the batteries , and it could also be used easily in dark places . more importantly , it could be a good selling point that doing exercises when users were watching the tv helps the remote control work .

what did industrial designer think about the wind-up when discussing the energy source ? </s> project manager: hi kate . okay , carry on . industrial designer: just just carry on . project manager: alright um this is the beginning of the third meeting , the conceptual design meeting . um our agenda should be um that we 're opening the meeting , i have the minutes from the previous meeting are on the shared f drive at this point . um and we should each have a presentation to make . um we have certain decisions to make and we have forty minutes total . it 's twenty five after two at the moment , so forty minutes is five after three , um which i 'll be keeping an eye on the clock for us . okay . um there are the decisions we have to turn to , but we 'll come back to them in a minute after i take us to the minutes of the previous meeting . right um as we remember , i opened the meeting , the four of us were present , the meeting the first meeting 's minutes were reviewed and approved . um sarah , you presented a marketing research report um which pretty much rep represented that fifteen to thirty five year olds uh it has to be hand-held , power , channel , volume , number keys , possibly a speech recognition . and then steph did a second presentation um that those functions plus streamlining them with big user-friendly keys that were easy to use . i think all of us agreed with those things . kate presented a working design of going after going over the basics on the whiteboard um that it should be a simple mass-produced device , because of the twelve and a half pence cost . um but we did talk about possibly using rechargeable batteries and having a docking place as a selling point . um and the new requirements that it for be for tv only um and that it include the l so slogan and colour of the uh corporate design be included . um the corporate image . so we agreed that the target market would be fifteen to thirty five with more money than sense , that were decision makers . alternatively it would be a manufacturer to enclose it with the tv , but it still should meet those parameters . um and that the function we agreed was volume , power , numbers , enter , channels , a way to move between channels , easy to use and hand-held . um at that point we agreed that sarah would look at the current cost of competition , what what do the current ones sell for . um and steph was gon na look at ec ergonomics . kate was gon na look at cost and feasibility of the various possibilities that we discussed . and i was to type up these minutes and work on the final report . is this a fair presentation of what our last meeting was ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . project manager: okay . right . so we 're ready to close that and go back to our that one . right . we 're up to the point of the go back . um the three presentations . so we 're going to pull the plug on me and turn to sarah . is that okay ? is that alright with everybody else ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yep . project manager: especially since kate asked to be last . sarah , i 'm sorry if i misspelled your name , i did n't know whether it was s_a_r_a_ or s_a_r_h_ . marketing: i respond to either . project manager: you respond to whatever you get , huh ? marketing: no worries . project manager: okay . um , did you do your hit user interface: yeah , project manager: ah , there it is . ta-da . marketing: okay , first thing i want to address is um one of the points that florence brought up , which was uh current cost of the competition devices , similar to the ones that stephanie uh showed us and and they 're uh twenty to sixty euros , depending on uh branding . user interface: right . marketing: some of them that have a higher brand recognition are on the more expensive end . but i think that with the current um price that we 're searching for , we 're well within , even on the lower end , of the uh of the market . project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: but i 'm going to move on to more interesting um more vibrant things . so , i investigated the remote control market in greater detail , and my uh the theme of what i was to work on was uh trend watch . user interface: marketing: and project manager: 'kay . user interface: industrial designer: sorry . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: i 'm glad to see the marketing budget is being so well spent on . marketing: project manager: marketing: i know that you all are a distance from cutting edge marketing research , industrial designer: marketing: so you know , i 'm just gon na try to cloak it in really professional terms here . what 's hot , fruit and veg . spongy . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: and this is all over the catwalks , paris , milan , and i 'm talking about clothing , furniture , shoes . industrial designer: marketing: this is really interesting change from past years , project manager: mm . user interface: marketing: because it is much more organic , um some would say approachable . and i think if we 're to refashion our view of what we want in a remote control , we should perhaps think about incorporating technologically interesting fabrics and some of the bold colours into a simple handset . so . i also did a little research on um what again are the most important priorities in uh decision making about uh purchasing . fancy . functional is out . and f the fancy , and that 's exactly the term , i 'm i 'm thinking polished , elegant , you know , kind of innovative , but a cut above . this is twice as important as the next finding , which is technologically innovative . this is interesting , 'cause i think in the last meeting we were talking about technology as being so important , but maybe what 's innovative is having it simple with um with uh technologically superior fabrics or uh , you know , designed in interesting substances . ease of use . again , pretty low , i mean it 's the top three , but each of the uh fancy and technologically innovative are far more important . so i think we should cloak the streamlined remote control device in a series of fruit fruit themed sleeves . user interface: industrial designer: i think that 's a good idea . do n't you ? marketing: y yeah , you know project manager: it sounds like the the uh covers that they use for the remote , you know , your t your cell phone . user interface: yes . marketing: exactly . exactly . i was thinking though that instead of having something uh like patterned , you know , so , you know , something similar to a summer dress . you know , it would have like fruit and veg , is that we actually make these spongy . project manager: mm . marketing: they could be ini initially i thought we could start with kind of um fruit that would suit kind of uh a long uh hand-held , so banana , pineapple and pear . um it could actually the sleeve could take up a lot of the development and the remote control , we 'd just need to get reductionist on it . user interface: marketing: they could be interchangeable , they 're spongy , that goes back to ergonomic , and the youngsters love 'em , fun for the whole family , everyone can have their own . so what we 're talking about is changing . this concept . everyone has a tv remote , but then we add in the fact that they could each have their own individual fruit . user interface: marketing: that 's what 's hot on the catwalks . so , this is my this is what i 'm thinking . project manager: hmm . user interface: project manager: uh-huh mm . in most families , do n't is n't the remote is a remote . marketing: y yeah , but i think i think what this would allow is perhaps a person in the family who had the most opinion about it we all need a remote , project manager: mm . marketing: but the person who is really perhaps active in personalising , i 'm thinking the teenager , the someone fifteen to thirty five would go out and get this additional thing the same way as you mentioned that people would get the cell phone covers . user interface: so when your dad 's sitting there , overriding your decision , going no we 're gon na watch this , you can bring out your own remote and be like zap , no we 're gon na watch this . marketing: yeah . w and plus i think project manager: mm . well actually some households do have three and four tvs marketing: uh yeah . user interface: project manager: and they would have a remote for each one , marketing: yeah . project manager: so . marketing: yeah . so this is an idea and i i you know , this is exactly what the research has uh has shown . so i really open this up to uh any other feedback . this spongy fruit and veg . industrial designer: yeah , i i think we 're gon na have some trouble when we get down to the component design on this . marketing: thanks . alright . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: spongy is gon na be difficult , i 'm afraid . user interface: yep . and as for as for um well budgeting as well , if we 're gon na have lots of different interchangeable components . project manager: hmm . marketing: i i just have my ear to the market , guys . user interface: is this to the market ? industrial designer: yeah , i mean basically we can make these things out of wood , titanium , plastic or rubber . i suppose rubber is the closest to spongy , marketing: is spongiest , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that would add industrial designer: i was thinking titanium myself . user interface: i was thinking titanium , i was thinking it 's just i have been influenced by pictures of ipods , and they 're also minimalist and shiny . marketing: mm-hmm . they are and they they would fulfil the uh first um priority , which is fancy . i think many of us would associate those with fancy . something else we could do is uh call it something that 's fruit and veg oriented . we could call it uh the name . project manager: are we talking about the device itself or the c or a cover for the device that would be an interchangeable cov cover as a separate product ? marketing: well it would be uh a a very simple product that would have a spongy sleeve that would be interchangeable . so project manager: perhaps perhaps that desi that particular suggestion needs to go back to management user interface: yeah , but it 's kind of pointless , is n't it ? project manager: and perhaps go to another group to actually design as a separate product . user interface: yeah . marketing: that , you know , that might be user interface: let 's delegate . project manager: wo would that be agreeable ? marketing: and then we could keep it titanium . industrial designer: yeah . w w would it be helpful if um i described the components a bit , because i think it would give you um maybe bring this discussion back to earth of what we can actually physically do . user interface: yeah , maybe . or project manager: do you wan na be next or you want kate to go next ? user interface: i think possibly it might be more useful if kate went next . project manager: okay , we 'll move the user interface: um industrial designer: user interface: you can even have them in different flavours as well . so that if you just wan na sit there and chew on the remote , it could be like pear flavour , marketing: yeah . or s or smelly . scratchy user interface: yeah . scratch and sniff . marketing: uh well i was really thinking a lot about the i_ uh the imac kind of gel gem tone . industrial designer: right , well marketing: it 's hot on the streets , guys . industrial designer: i i i think some of this um user interface: industrial designer: you 're gon na be a little disappointed with some of the things i have to tell you , but i 'm afraid this is the real world . so um i 've been looking at the the basics of how these devices actually have to work in order to operate , and i 've had some discussions with the ma manufacturing division , who have told me what 's actually available , you know , what the current state of the art in components is , and some of the exciting new things they 've got , but i 'm not sure that it 's quite what you want um . now this is n't a very good overhead , but this is just to show you , this is the innards of a remote control um . i really need a pen or something but uh does my mouse work ? no . um oh yeah , can you see my little mouse pointer ? project manager: mm . industrial designer: right . this is this is the a a a remote that 's been opened up project manager: mm . industrial designer: and that 's the the back of the interface . and this is a push-button one , so you see these little little buttons here , they 're little rubber rubber buttons that go through onto the the board at the back and they push these buttons here . um and we that 's the basic construction that we 've got to got to accommodate . we got to have something that pushes the little buttons that um talk to the chip that encodes the message that sends the the message to the receiver . so um i wan i wan na go through not not just addressing the um uh the the points that you made , sarah , but um doing my presentation in the order i wrote it . so first of all um i wan na talk about what possibilities we 've got for the energy source . marketing: industrial designer: um we can have your bog standard double double a_ batteries in a replaceable um little compartment . we can have a hand sorry user interface: a wind-up . marketing: industrial designer: a wind-up , yeah , which i think is quite an interesting concept for a sorry for a remote control , marketing: project manager: industrial designer: but i it maybe is does n't quite go with the um the fruit and veg . marketing: project manager: alright . industrial designer: um one that one that i think is quite interesting is the kinetic energy source , marketing: project manager: remember , we only have forty minutes industrial designer: where um you you actually get the energy by moving the device , marketing: mm . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: which is quite a ni a nice and neat one . you have to it means that if it 's sitting there for a long time it probably wo n't work , but you have to sort of throw it between your hands every now and then , it 'll work . user interface: industrial designer: or we we had talked about solar power , marketing: hmm . industrial designer: but i thing that we agreed that that 's not so good in the dark . project manager: mm . industrial designer: now i 'm afraid this is the options we 've got on on the case . it can be made of plastic , rubber , wood o if you like , or titanium . marketing: hmm . user interface: industrial designer: um and the nearest we 've got to st to spongy there i guess is rubber , but um i 'm gon na come back to the advantages of titanium , marketing: hmm . industrial designer: and basically it can have a flat surface , a curved surface or a double curved surface , but i think if we wan na use standard components , we 're gon na have difficulty with anything much beyond that . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: okay , what does the interface look like ? um well push button , that 's that 's the one we 're all familiar with . um we can have scroll buttons and the the scroll button can incorporate a push , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: so you can have it like on a mouse where you can use it to go up and down , change volume or channel or something like that and push to select something . um you can have multiple scroll buttons , um this is maybe getting a little bit complicated , but um it 's it the technology is there . and we can also incorporate an lcd display in the remote , but this will increase the cost . um the electronics that actually makes the device work , we 've basically got three , simple , regular , advanced , and the price goes up as we choose each of this . if we want the nice cheap one , the simple , then we can only have push buttons . all the other fancy interface designs go out the window , i 'm afraid . um pay a little bit more for a regular chip and you can have scroll buttons . if you want the advanced chip it obviously costs more , but it that 's what you need if you want the lcd display . and the manufacturing devision tell me that they have recently developed um sample sensor sample speaker devices . now i do n't know what that is , but i think they think it 's quite important and we might want to incorporate it somewhere . um ou our real expertise is in push buttons , i have to say , but maybe you think that 's old technology . marketing: mm . industrial designer: and well i i think we 've got two options . we can either go for a really cheap model , keep all of the costs down , um which means a flat plastic case with an ordinary battery and simple push buttons . or we can have something that looks a bit nicer , i think it , um wo n't necessarily l uh look like a pineapple , but um that may or may not be a good thing . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: sorry . um but it could have an lcd screen and it could have multiple scroll buttons , and it could have the the company 's new development of the um sample sensor and speaker . so , thank you . marketing: that sounds good . any idea you you mentioned that there would be a cost difference . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: um do you have any idea if if this could if the fancy model could be done in twelve euros fifty ? industrial designer: i 'm afraid i do n't have that information available . um manufacturing did n't actually give attach any prices to any of this , i 'm afraid . project manager: hmm . marketing: hmm . because , you know what , i 'm being quite serious when i say that that um the things i mentioned are hot . but i think the important thing might be to choose one . industrial designer: yeah mm-hmm . marketing: you know , if if what you 're telling me is is um some of these things are n't just f are n't feasible , maybe we could something about naming , we could call it , you know , blackberry . user interface: bear bear in mind it has to be the colours and styles of the company , marketing: that 's uh user interface: so what i had been thinking was something chunky and yellow and plastic with black buttons with a logo on it . industrial designer: banana ? marketing: alright , well let 's see then . user interface: but um i i do n't know how important that is to keep it exactly the colours of the real reaction company . marketing: yeah . user interface: it 's just what i 'd understood we 'd be doing . that 's before i heard about all this hot tips about the future , fruit-wise . marketing: yeah . but yeah , industrial designer: we we could we could do um a double curved rubber one , marketing: i 'm trying to streamline mine a little bit . industrial designer: which would allow um say a banana , but um unfortunately i see from my notes that if we do that , we have to have a push button as the interface , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: we ca n't do anything fancier . user interface: shall we wait 'til i 've 'til i 've showed you what well , my extensive presentation on what sort of interfaces are available . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yep . marketing: mm . thank you , kate . project manager: thank you , kate . marketing: mm . user interface: you did seem to include just in more detail what i 've got though . so so mine 's a bit pointless . right . industrial designer: user interface: f_n_ and f_ eight , did you say ? project manager: yes . there we go . industrial designer: user interface: i do n't have it on mine though . marketing: oh i think um florence resolved it by industrial designer: i if you do f_ uh f_n_ f_ eight again , it 's it 'll project manager: do it again . marketing: f_ eight again . project manager: keep doing it until you get it in both you get it there , you get it yours without that one , industrial designer: i think it yeah , you you will do an project manager: and then you get it with both . user interface: should i do it again ? project manager: yeah . marketing: maybe . industrial designer: project manager: this time it should come up both . user interface: right then . i do n't actually have a huge amount of different information then what kate says , project manager: okay . user interface: just that my method was to look at the , well , my my inspirations , which was a big collection of lots of different models of remote controls and other things that use a similar sort of thing , including m_p_ three players , uh like you know , hi-fi remotes , not just television and these things . project manager: mm-hmm . mm . user interface: uh having a think about the feature of ea the features of each ones , um what functions we actually need , and then how to group and arrange these on the actual the actual plastic or rubber hand-held piece . uh i 've been especially interested in the ipod style scroll wheel , which well , i could n't find a the picture of the ipod w only linked to a web browser , so i could n't copy and paste it , but it had a similar thing to this thing on the right . it has uh scroll wheels without without a display , but they they scroll like a computer mouse . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: so i was thinking that uh um a really simple a really simple interface with just a couple of scroll things on it um and then instead of a display the display could appear on the television screen . like i guess an existing sky or cable one does . like , you know , you press enter and it comes up with what 's showing on that channel at the moment , and you can do you can scroll along and it 'll show you what 's on in the next half hour , and you scroll up marketing: user interface: and you can see what 's on the other channels while you 're watching the same channel on the screen . uh but i 'm also equally taken with this chunky plastic kiddie remote , marketing: mm . user interface: um which is really nice and fun and good to hold and nice , big , easy buttons to press , but still quite simple and quite cost effective . so project manager: user interface: what seems kind of ideal for me would be to just have a fairly simple , uh not fancy but not totally minimalist , i mean just pretty simple plastic , probably , i was thinking , yellow and black , just because that 's the company 's colours , with very very few buttons , but that would correspond to a screen that would appear on the television screen , like , you know , just small along the bottom instead of instead of having the ipod style display screen on the actual remotes , which is far too expensive . project manager: mm . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: and when you 've got a screen sitting there in front of you , you might as well have it appearing uh on the screen in front of you , it does n't obscure much of the actual picture you 're watching . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and so on that you can , just much in the same way as an existing sky remote , scroll along , scroll up and down . industrial designer: yeah , i 'd i 'd certainly support that idea . user interface: and uh and i definitely support uh the use of plastic and or rubber . i mean titanium would be great , but i think it might be a bit too expensive and too kinda spacey . if we 're k trying to keep it colourful and slightly organic , then i think titanium 's too futuristic . industrial designer: it 's difficult to make fancy shapes in it as well , we ca n't for example have a double curved case in titanium unfortunately . user interface: yeah . whereas a plastic 's so cheap and easy and mouldable and everything else . industrial designer: marketing: hmm . user interface: uh then industrial designer: and the the having the the the screen on the television screen i think is a good idea , 'cause um otherwise we 're we 're putting up the price not only for putting building the lcd in , but for the electronics as well . user interface: and it 's a little bit pointless as well i think . industrial designer: there is that . user interface: like when when when you 've got when you 've got the screen there , it does n't have to be anything fancy , marketing: it 's a duplication . user interface: just a little menu showing yeah , a menu , you go into one menu and then it can have your different options , whether you wan na change the settings or the you know , your information about programme that 's on at the moment . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i do n't think that 's to taxing to uh s engineer . um . but as for actually arranging them let me go back to the to the picture of the kiddie one . and i quite like it , 'cause it 's just smooth and hand-held and it 's got these easily reachable buttons that quite nicely uh spaced out , so something a bit like that with buttons arranged in a kind of circle . up , down , left , right . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: do you want scroll buttons in that as well ? user interface: i i was thinking not actually scroll , like a like mouse scroll , but you know , a i ca n't quite d uh describe it . you see on the one on the right , down at the bottom , is the mouse . yeah , see where the mouse is , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: like this s style thing where you c have up , down , left and right . and enter in the middle , industrial designer: right . user interface: so you pick your menu and then your different options and when when you click on each one , it you can go into a new menu for that . i 'm getting a bit uh specific here . marketing: user interface: really we 'd have to use something to show you , industrial designer: yeah . i think i think that 's a g nice clean design , user interface: but industrial designer: it 's playing to our strengths which are in push button technology . marketing: to uh m make it . user interface: if i do n't think i can get it up on the screen . ah here we go . right . marketing: oh nice . user interface: well , marketing: um hmm . user interface: the ipod spinning wheel is uh really complicated . project manager: huh . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: it does scroll , but it is hugely complicated . what else have we got ? marketing: mm . wow . user interface: them , they 're terrible . but they all have this this feature of this uh it 's not quite a scroll wheel , but it 's a kind of selection in this circle , project manager: it 's a selection wheel . user interface: which i think is a really good idea . industrial designer: but we can implement it with simple push buttons , which is much cheaper . user interface: yeah , like up , down , left and right . which is good . and then and then yeah , so i mean either a channel up and down , volume up and down , next appearing programmes up and down , uh and then also when you get into the different menus on the screen , it 's got your things like settings and contrast up and down . project manager: okay . user interface: so all you really need is these four buttons with the enter in the middle . project manager: okay . user interface: and that 's it . industrial designer: in fact user interface: look at look at this one . industrial designer: oh that 's really nice . user interface: almost impossible to misplace or l or lose . project manager: marketing: do you think with um project manager: user interface: might take up your whole living room . marketing: it seems that that uh you guys are quite keen on the plastic , perhaps the something reminiscent of the child 's remote . do you think we could put it in a in a fruit colour ? and have it abstract . you know , user interface: possibly . marketing: we could call like a fruit name , industrial designer: hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: but it would be a little more abstract . industrial designer: mm . we we could actually do it in rubber instead of plastic if you 'd rather if you feel if you like the spongy user interface: that also is possible . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: just marketing: i 'm just just throwing out ideas . project manager: or call it a or call it a banana and have it in yellow . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah . i 'm thinking maybe we need to be a little bit more abstract if the design constraints are so project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: uh just something else i need to bring to your attention is have you have you seen these on a remote ? this is actually the volume up and down , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but they both say v_ on them , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: which , when you first look at it , you expect that to be the down , because it looks like a downward pointing arrow , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: hmm . user interface: but it 's actually the v_ to indicate that it 's the volume , so uh we do need to avoid little ambiguities like these . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: nice . good point . user interface: but we would n't have a specific volume up and down . if we 're having the scroll wheel , then it 's gon na double up as all the other up and down functions . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: but then , that 's complicated . project manager: i wan na thank you all for all your presentations . we have about ten minutes left , in which time we have to make some decisions on the remote control concepts . um and i think you all have been self-stimulating of working together . um we need to come up with some specifics of the components , um the materials , things like making the decision on the energy um and the case and the interface type things . so let 's mm . right . they want us to decide what form of energy are we going to use , which the choices that we 've discussed were pretty much battery , kinetic or solar . um this is where kate 's expertise comes in , and our decision making will be a little bit guided by kate at this point . industrial designer: project manager: the you were saying that the kinetic would be useful , that is you just have to move it some and you 'd be able to use it um as opposed to a battery that you have to either put it in a recharger or um keep replacing the batteries . um or solar that you 'd have difficulty with it if it 's a dark day , that it 'll die on you , and no way to do it . that 's the day you wan na use the tv . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um so what 's our pleasure here , what would be the cost consequences of each of the three ? industrial designer: oh unfortunately i do n't have costing information . project manager: okay . industrial designer: i i in terms of workability , i i think the the two front-runners are the standard battery or the kinetic , project manager: mm 'kay . industrial designer: but i 'm sorry i do n't figures on the difference in cost . project manager: what 's the uh feelings of the group on the kinetic ? marketing: i 've used kinetic in terms of watches and it 's very very uh handy , you do n't even notice um that it 's there . user interface: it sounds great . i 've never come across it before , but it sounds fantastic . sounds like it could be g a really good economical marketing: it 's user interface: it would make the whole thing a lot lighter , more convenient . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: hmm . marketing: it could tie in with the fanciful design project manager: hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: as uh , you know , user interface: 'cause it 's really a quite attractive thought , marketing: throw the banana , you know , just got ta keep it moving . user interface: is n't it ? it 's like yeah , project manager: so the consensus seems to be use the kinetic if it 's at all possible . user interface: a good selling point . marketing: be user interface: but it does depend how much i mean how much it costs and how much more development and research it needs . project manager: it costs . mm . industrial designer: and and how much you do have to keep it moving , marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . industrial designer: 'cause i 'm conscious that watching tv can be quite a sed sedentary activity . marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: mm . marketing: but i could market that as a um as a a i was thinking actually a a cost saver down the road , in terms of battery , you know . user interface: do your exercises while you 're watching the tv . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: true , yeah , m more more environmentally friendly . user interface: yeah , that 's what i was thinking as well . marketing: mm-hmm . you know , project manager: yeah . marketing: kind of the project manager: thanks for the reminder for five minutes to finish , thanks . industrial designer: oh right , okay , project manager: um the next thing that they wanted us to do was look at chip on print as a decision . industrial designer: i 'd that that 's something i maybe should have covered . um chip on print is just a manufacturing technique project manager: oh . industrial designer: um and i would certainly recommend it , i think , because i 'm not sure i have an alternative . project manager: okay . user interface: project manager: what about the ca industrial designer: i i it it 's just the way that the the the uh th the way it 's ac it 's actually built project manager: yeah . oh , the way we uh-huh . industrial designer: and you you print onto the circuit board like you might print onto paper . project manager: oh , okay . um what about the case ? i think they 're talking there about do we want wood , plastic , titanium or rubber , industrial designer: project manager: and i think we 've discussed not having titanium . one , it 's too expensive , um and second , it wo n't do this double um curves . um we 've sort of eliminated wood . we said plastic or rubber . what 's the pleasure ? industrial designer: well if if sarah 's keen on a spongy feel , the the rubber that we 're talking about is the same as you have in those little stress balls , so it 's marketing: that 's exactly what i was thinking . i 'm sold . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: what about you ? user interface: do you not think it might need like a kind of a hard plastic inner shell with the actual delicate workings inside , and then a kind of spongy yeah , s thick spongy cover , marketing: mm . kind of like an internal egg . project manager: cover . user interface: so it feels like the whole thing 's spongy , but actually you 're not damaging anything by squeezing it . project manager: plastic inside . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because i mean you could just get carried away with the with the tac industrial designer: i 'd i 'd need to talk to manufacturing again about whether that 's actually possible , but i agree , it 's uh sounds like a nice idea if it is . user interface: yeah . well you do get a bit carried away with things that are tactile , you just wan na stroke them and squeeze them , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: marketing: and with sports on television . project manager: okay . user interface: and marketing: you know . project manager: um the next part they want is the user interface concept . industrial designer: i should i should r marketing: i su project manager: i 'm sorry to push you , but we only have a couple minutes to finish with . marketing: then i 'll just say i support either from a marketing point of view i support either decision that the designers make on that . project manager: okay , and it says interface . what type and what supplements ? user interface: just copy the one on the left . no um a scroll well , like four buttons , up , down , left and right with enter in the middle , that will correspond to a menu on the screen . industrial designer: which i think technically is just push button and uh i 'd certainly support that that user interface: yeah , industrial designer: that brings the cost down quite a lot user interface: i 'd like push buttons with industrial designer: and it 's something that we 're an ex the company 's an expert on . user interface: so push buttons project manager: okay , um that 's that . um this is gon na sound weird , but the next meeting starts in thirty minutes . whew . industrial designer: project manager: and they actually want a look and feel design , user interface design , you can look and see this as well as i can . marketing they want product evaluation . user interface: no , it 's still it 's still plugged in on mine actually . marketing: no we ca n't , actually . project manager: oh . oh my , i 'm sorry . marketing: that 's why i was looking over your shoulder project manager: oh , okay . sorry about that . missed that one . this ought to be fun trying to get this thing to work . ah , ta-da . industrial designer: user interface: now it 's gone again . project manager: ah . industrial designer: you know , i think the the company 's s next project should to design a better overhead device that switches immediately . project manager: yes , because i ca n't even see mine . next meeting starts in thirty minutes , user interface: oh yes . project manager: these are the individual actions . yeah , right . um the look and feel design is for kate , marketing: mm . project manager: uh steph gets the user interface design , you get product evaluation . um the two of you get to play with a pla modelling clay um to do a prototype . user interface: great . project manager: uh and everybody gets individual instructions in the usual way . marketing: sounds good . project manager: anything else we need to do ? user interface: i do n't think so . project manager: go to it . user interface: play-doh . project manager: and that 's the end of this meeting . that 's for her benefit . marketing: that 's really all i got , guys . industrial designer: { vocalsound }

industrial designer argued that compared with the traditional energy source - double a batteries in a replaceable little compartment , wind-up was a quite interesting concept for the remote control . but this concept did n't get along well with the possible banana theme of the remote control . therefore , the kinetic energy source would be a better choice .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: can i close this ? user interface: uh we do n't have any changes , do we ? project manager: oh , okay . user interface: so no . project manager: there we go . okay , here we are again . detailed design oh , come on . well ah s forgot to insert the minutes , but it 's about the same thing we discussed before . uh could open that anyway , think . other design anyway , we took as we took w we took rubber as as the material last time . we also that you 're just busy with it . took the advanced chip to t uh implement the advanced features . well , we discussed the design , no sharp corners , we rounded it off , like you see on the other screen , which is fine . um we agreed that the colour should be b uh yellow and black . yellow in the back because it 's m trendy , more trendy than black anyway . so then we ca yeah . we agreed that we would implement both the lcd and speech recognition , but i 'll get to that in a moment . 'cause some changes in the finances have left us implications anyway . so so , like i said , we had no insight in finances , no prices , marketing: hmm . project manager: but we have 'em now , and it 's bad . anyway . we are oh . prototype presentation , well first you guys built the prototype . so you could could present that . but um let 's see what be handy to do . nee no , you just go ahead and present the w we 'll scrap it later because what ? industrial designer: i think it 's more or less the same as we had . user interface: it 's basically what we agreed upon , marketing: hmm ? project manager: oh that 's user interface: but just a little bit more specified . industrial designer: no much s project manager: has n't changed that much , huh ? industrial designer: no no no , not at all . project manager: i did n't expect anyway . you just coloured it . user interface: uh s final design . basically in what we discussed , cover and buttons will be made of rubber , yellow colour , black components , as you can see right over here . project manager: mm-hmm . i like the menu . user interface: we chose a different type of colour for the menu . a bit darker yellow so that it com really shows in this keypad . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: if you put them all black , it 's not really that good a contrast . project manager: and i suppose the the the yellow is not printed on the on the rubber . it 's it 's part of the rubber , i suppose . user interface: so probab project manager: i think that 's more i think that 's more durable anyway than printed on to user interface: yeah . that 's the be industrial designer: hmm . user interface: and it i guess it 's more easier to just paint it on the rubber industrial designer: yeah , of course . user interface: than to uh industrial designer: that 's uh the integration story again . marketing: mm yeah . okay . user interface: so we have it 's a bit round shaped , project manager: oh yeah . user interface: that 's what we had uh we chose the buttons to be uh teletext , okay button , favourite channel and the mute . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so that 's basically what we chose there . project manager: okay . user interface: if you have anything to add , please interrupt me . industrial designer: no , uh this is just a description of what we see there . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so user interface: oh . industrial designer: speaks for itself . marketing: yeah . user interface: that 's pretty much it . project manager: okay . now it 's my time to ruin everything . well , not ruin everything , but no , nah . user interface: oh sorry . project manager: finances , that 's what we have here , what you drew . we have battery power , we have advanced chips and the sam the sensor . the sample sensor and uh for speak recognition anyway . so which you see the which is de o one of the most expensive parts . so well , we have sin one curve , a design . rubber design . and we had a special colour . suppose yellow is a special colour . so just half a euro for you have pushbuttons and an lcd display . you have the total of seventeen euros in production cost , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: which is higher than the twelve and a half that we are permitted to use . so , marketing: hmm . project manager: easy . what do we scrap . well think i had the best solution that i came up with is just to s take out the speech recognition . industrial designer: i d user interface: i 'd say that too . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: because the lcd has more support on customer side . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: there are ninety one percent of uh the people , or something like that . but ninety percent who favour an lcd display , and only sixty percent that favour speech recognition . i think it 's also harder to user interface: uh we do n't really have a extra function with the speech sample , marketing: yeah . user interface: which you ca n't do with a normal remote control , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: . so i ju user interface: which people already do . so project manager: i took that out . so and so it 's still stuck with thirteen , so i had to take out the special colour i suppose . and , yeah , i did n't see anything else i could take out . yeah , i could take out the push-buttons , marketing: pushbut project manager: but we need those . so , generally what i came up with , in order to be cou to to have production cost of twelve and a half euros , spe scrap speech recognition industrial designer: huh . marketing: special colour , yeah . project manager: and the separate covers can account for the if people want it , we 'll just then we 'll do it in black . we 'll just deliver it in black , have the it has all the function that it 's supposed to have , and if you want it if you want the custom design , then you can buy the separate covers . user interface: well , project manager: you make it d orange or whatever you want . user interface: i 'd i tend to disagree with you on that , because the trend issue was a big issue when we started designing this . project manager: it was a big issue , but user interface: so ca n't we just basically extend it to thirteen ? project manager: i 'll just go back . uh let 's just let 's see what okay , let 's just see what we no , we we have to be under twelve and a half . marketing: yeah , it project manager: it it 's not marketing: the p project manager: uh the project is a no-go if we go over twelve and a half , industrial designer: okay , but there 's another problem . marketing: and the p project manager: so . user interface: okay . industrial designer: but there 's another problem . marketing: what industrial designer: if we take another cover , for instance black , then we also need another button frame , 'cause black and black does n't work obviously . project manager: i think you that 's what you were ass assigned to do really , to to see how b th both those work together . industrial designer: huh . huh . yeah . project manager: so i think yeah , it 's i think it 's y one of the it 's a good way to um to help people uh to make to keep the product trendy too . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: just keep you just make new covers for the for it , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: like we agreed before . industrial designer: right . i agree . project manager: and everything that 's left is is the basic function that uh that we want our product to have . because the expensive parts are in either the advanced chip . but we need that for the lcd display . user interface: yeah . we do . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: then again , we have the lcd display , which is also expensive . b yeah , but those go together . and yeah , we could take out the curve . industrial designer: or say let 's lose rubber , take plastic . user interface: we could take out a curve indeed . project manager: could we could take out the curve . is that an option ? industrial designer: yes . marketing: . project manager: for you ? industrial designer: although we are demolishing a little bit the style . marketing: but uh the and user interface: i think the colour is more important than the really the curve , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but project manager: user interface: because if you just end up with an entirely black remote control project manager: i think it 's it it does ruin it , marketing: yeah . the people project manager: but the fact that i t took that decision or t industrial designer: yeah . project manager: took this example actually , not really decision , but the example is because we do offer the um the possibility of adding your own custom covers . so you can change any colour you want . so it 's just you deliver a basic remote control with a possibility to change you into whatever you want . industrial designer: can we then not also uh change the material ? we take plastic for the basic cover project manager: you can take plastic , industrial designer: and project manager: but i d it 's something that 's stuck into my mind is that something that really came forward from the marketing research is that people like the the the the squishy feeling of the spongy feeling of the marketing: spongy , yeah . industrial designer: we can put those to the to the other covers . project manager: and it really makes it also makes it different from the existing remote controls , marketing: yeah . project manager: because they 're all plastic . marketing: and project manager: so which in in turn industrial designer: that 's true . project manager: rubber would increase durability industrial designer: but project manager: because it does n't break . industrial designer: okay . but what do you then suggest we 'd lose ? because we have to lose two things and i guess . project manager: i al like i said , i lost the speech recognition and i lost the special colour , marketing: but industrial designer: yes . project manager: which would make this black a black and grey . industrial designer: okay , and that 's enough ? project manager: yeah , that 's that that that 's enough , because user interface: so black and grey is okay . project manager: i guess those are the basic colours . marketing: but project manager: so oh . user interface: which we can fabricate , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: i think those are basic col they want to user interface: okay . marketing: the people want to pay for for it , so why why uh do we have to keep us uh uh um on the twelve and a half ? project manager: to ensure the profit . that that 's th that 's the order . we 're just uh we 're the project team and we got our our orders from the pro from the boss of our company marketing: yeah . project manager: which say we do n't wan na spend more than twelve fifty for this . marketing: but we can take a risk . project manager: but that 's not for our that 's not our decision to take . we have a budget of twelve fifty per product . user interface: no , we basically marketing: okay , yeah . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so user interface: we need to stick to that . project manager: stick that . i do n't think it 's really bad either . i mean if we we have the the backup of or the backup design thing marketing: i hope the people will like it , project manager: to have marketing: but project manager: i think they would do . th i think they do like because yo we you we agree upon that the that the the the cover thing was a nice idea , marketing: project manager: because p you could have all sort of designs while at the same time just manufacturing one product , one basic product which you could turn into any any taste you want . marketing: yeah . project manager: so i think it 's the best solution to make those cu custom covers for the design aspect industrial designer: perhaps we should make m marketing: yeah . project manager: and keep the functionality between of within the th the boundaries of the your f uh your budget . industrial designer: huh . marketing: the first sheet . project manager: so industrial designer: perhaps we should make clear to our customer that we had to do this to stay under the cost . and that 's uh they know that this is an option and that we had to drop the option to stay under the cost , that they know that . project manager: well i do n't think yeah . is it worth is it is it industrial designer: perhaps they decide tha user interface: but they do n't project manager: does it mean anything to the customer ? like , it like , we do n't care we do n't care that you had to industrial designer: of course . perhaps they uh no , but perhaps they think uh okay , the cover is such a nice idea , uh let 's that that then they uh that allow us to make some more costs . project manager: true , industrial designer: we ca we uh we can at least tell them that project manager: but we did we did n't get that . so i think it 's industrial designer: you do n't know that . project manager: it should either be a pack , maybe we sh that should be sold in in the s in stores with with a standard cover or something . user interface: well industrial designer: huh . project manager: but industrial designer: no , i 'm not uh talking about that cost but the one that g has given us the order to design this . we could at least m uh make it like this , like you said , project manager: they could , but uh industrial designer: and then tell them okay , we had to drop this and that , just that you know . it is an still an option , but not for this price . project manager: it 's an option , but yeah , it 's true . so actually uh it 's not that much of an increase , but yeah . we can not contact them . user interface: and if we project manager: it 's just the order that we got . industrial designer: exactly , project manager: so that 's what we got ta go with . industrial designer: but marketing: yeah . project manager: so it 's either one fi just just to get it f just to get it through final , it 's either turned into plastic , drop the squishy feel , make it make it more breakable , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um or turn it yellow . so it 's uh something we have to decide on . industrial designer: i 'd say lose the curve and the colour project manager: i say lose the curve . oh that 's true , industrial designer: and project manager: we could lose the c i forgot that , yeah , sorry . uh the curve . so user interface: so which curve is that ba project manager: that 's just this one just d this is the banana curve . user interface: that 's basically that curve . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so this would this would be straight . user interface: so we could u still have the comfort . marketing: yeah , that 's better . project manager: no , uh no , that would be a curve inside the thing , i guess . no , would ju then it would just be a straight remote . just like like that . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: which would , yeah , turn it into something far more ordinary . we could make it yellow then , user interface: i second that . project manager: but you second that , you second that we lose the curve . user interface: no , that it would turn out to be a pretty straight-forward remote control . project manager: okay , yeah . user interface: so that 's not really that marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: so i think it would be a good idea to keep the curve to separate it from the rest of the remote control world , so to speak . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so we keep the curve . so the only only solution is either to use the l y lose the yellow or lose the rubber . user interface: i would project manager: and i 'm in favour of keeping the rubber , because it has more more advantages than the colour yellow has . industrial designer: oh . i agree . user interface: yeah . i would say i would agree with you on the colour , industrial designer: no . marketing: yep . user interface: because that 's an extra option , an extra service we can deliver for a little bit of more money . project manager: mm-hmm . yeah , um user interface: so we can always do that . project manager: i guess people are willing to pay for that . so i think we can take that option and just with uh with the idea in the back of our head that you can customise your remote control . industrial designer: hmm ? marketing: yeah . project manager: so i think that would still make it a nice product . industrial designer: yes . project manager: okay , we 're final on that . so it 's too bad we ca n't make the whole super thing . but anyways we 're here . um yeah . user interface: which is basically what we discussed . project manager: this we discussed just now . that 's just now just we could just discuss how the project went . i mean , was kind of marketing: and i want to do that . project manager: i sort of expected that everything would turn out this way , but because you yeah , everything can not be for free . we did n't i think it was too bad we did n't have the financial info the last time . because that was i th user interface: yes , industrial designer: huh . project manager: it was really essential really user interface: we could have project manager: to ma because we spent uh uh entire stage designing a product of which we had no idea what it would cost . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so we just put something marketing: yeah . project manager: i think it 's really nor not in stroke with reality actually . marketing: project manager: so industrial designer: me too , i felt a bit blind throughout the project , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: because in the beginning i had no list of available materials , project manager: yeah , i think would have been . marketing: yeah . project manager: materials would be ok industrial designer: and then i d had not list of available c finances . marketing: but project manager: at least the last meeting i would have expected had to have that . industrial designer: so project manager: so i suppose marketing: let 's um see um project manager: yeah , let 's see if it sells . i mean i suppose this sells , because it 's very very extended . marketing: um project manager: but user interface: well i hope it sells . marketing: let 's uh project manager: i suppose it sells , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: because it 's good . marketing: oh . project manager: i mean it 's got everything for the for the reasonable price , because we did n't know what it 's gon na cost anyway . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: marketing: hmm . okay , let 's eval evaluate uh the product of us , our design . um i have some uh a method , a requirements and scale of . i uh will pre present uh some statements and we will decided together wha what if it 's true or false project manager: okay . marketing: and uh then we see uh if the requirements of the user are fulfilled or not . project manager: have been met , okay . marketing: and i will uh make a new blank sheet project manager: yeah . marketing: so so the buttons , the look and feel . i thought it was okay , but the advanced uh settings , um screen , audio and channel project manager: they 're stuck under menu . user interface: which are basically accessible through the menu button . marketing: we are not project manager: for the menu . i think those are totally met , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: because we we really took them for the they have the feel they want , marketing: oh the menu button is it . user interface: yeah . marketing: hi oh , okay . project manager: they have the simplicity they want . marketing: then it 's all uh s project manager: i think it 's very uh very well met . either two or one maybe . industrial designer: one . marketing: it 's true . project manager: i think we took that everything they wanted into consideration . marketing: yeah . project manager: so it could either be a two or a one . marketing: so d oh wait . uh pen . project manager: one and a half . user interface: which is not an option . marketing: the p oh yeah , project manager: just create our own option . marketing: it 's red , okay , but look and feel is everybo it 's true . project manager: yeah . marketing: so anyone ? and the next one uh yeah , when it 's lost uh you can find it . project manager: it 's perfect . even for deaf people , yeah . marketing: it 's project manager: it 's i do n't think it 's perfect , but we did everything possible to to get it back . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: to make it that way , yeah . project manager: because if it 's stuck in you couch , you can see the light . maybe you can hear it . but i mean we tried , marketing: yeah . project manager: so i think it that 's that deserves a one . definitely . marketing: and it 's and it 's yeah . to . that 's okay then . and the next one . how is that ? uh w we had we do n't have an uh manual , industrial designer: manual . project manager: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think the lcd display could be a little bit more difficult then a normal remote control , marketing: but i think that 's a part of it . but project manager: i 'd use an remote control . user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: but then again , it 's for young people . so marketing: yeah , an lcd , it tells a lot about uh user interface: and it 's pretty straight-forward , industrial designer: yeah , i th project manager: it 's pretty straight-forward , uh-huh . user interface: you have a navigation no keys to navigate through the lcd menus . industrial designer: exactly . no , that 's true . i think it wo n't be a big problem . marketing: yeah . user interface: so marketing: so it 's a one user interface: one i d no , marketing: or a i do n't know . user interface: actu project manager: i think but we did n't even marketing: for the advanced uh settings . project manager: there was no issue on making a manual actually . we did n't really discuss it , marketing: no okay , that uh that 's true . project manager: but i do n't think it takes no , it really does does n't take time to learn , i think . we took it s it 's so easy , user interface: no , it it is pretty straight-forward . marketing: oh , so it project manager: we have so little button , everything speaks for itself really . so i think that 's industrial designer: ah . um project manager: yeah , we did n't it 's either two or one , i guess . marketing: takes no ti project manager: maybe it 's a two , because d uh the lcd is a little is a little new and there is there are some option hidden under the menu button . industrial designer: with the more important functions on . marketing: yeah . project manager: so i might make this a two instead of a one , i guess . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: and the lcd , you have to see it . project manager: so just make that a two . marketing: um mm oh , it 's a little bit learning . okay . uh yeah it 's uh a little bit same . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: but it tells you or not ? project manager: you can use the lcd in a good way . i think so . i think it 's perfect , the w where it is , what it can do , if it useful . i think so . marketing: but wha w industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: oh , yeah . what are we uh displaying on the lcd screen ? just uh only the channels and or industrial designer: the menus uh things like brightness and uh those kind of things we 've put in the menu , marketing: what uh ? industrial designer: because we have no buttons for those . user interface: well , basically the menu options indeed . but marketing: oh , in the lcd screen . project manager: no , y i mean in the lcd screen , the small screen . what does it display ? industrial designer: yes . marketing: and for a channel selection , uh or that 's not project manager: well i thought it was i thought it was i thought that people wanted previews on their i 'm not sure if that even possible , marketing: yeah , i thought i thought too project manager: but marketing: but project manager: 'cause it 's this requires a quite quite a bit of band-width . marketing: yeah . project manager: i do n't think it 's possible really . but the they did n't really define in what should be used for . user interface: no . marketing: maybe a tv guide or something in your lcd uh project manager: but i think in for example like tv guides , i think that 's that th that you can transmit through it and everything . just for extra information on your programmes . industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah . yeah , it must be clear then what what what for we use it . project manager: but also things like like like menus or p how about preferences of your uh with configuring your remote control for favourite your favourite channel for example , how do you configure that . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so that could be done by lcd display . i think it 's good . no , maybe it 's not a one because it 's we 're not using it perfectly . we did n't give it i do n't thing over-discussing . now we gave it enough thought though . i think we d should just lower this . marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe maybe it 's a three though . we could 've used it more effectively probably . marketing: yeah , indeed . project manager: marketing: so everybody 's agree with an uh three on it , project manager: yeah , we are using it , user interface: yeah . two or three . industrial designer: yes . marketing: it 's project manager: but it 's not marketing: w project manager: it 's not poorly used , but it 's not efficiently used , i think . user interface: so marketing: yeah . project manager: we could have ev even lost the selection button and uh done everything via lcd selection . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's now it 's just extra to illustrate im uh extra features , marketing: yeah , i project manager: but okay . marketing: a three . industrial designer: nah , it 's not really only an extra . user interface: you can seven . industrial designer: no menus . marketing: ah , nothing , that 's a seven . uh that 's uh industrial designer: think about project manager: can you talk to remote control ? user interface: or we could say it project manager: well , it ca n't talk anymore . so we scrap that . marketing: yeah . user interface: or we could say neutral , project manager: oh yeah user interface: we 'cause we scratched the project manager: just to be a prick , user interface: c project manager: but of course you can talk to your remote control , it does n't do anything . marketing: yeah yeah yeah yeah . project manager: but you c you can talk to it . marketing: not with the speech recognition . uh yeah , all the trends and no colours uh anymore . so project manager: well , we did take everything into consideration of course . uh the shape i shape is i marketing: yeah , uh um only in the curves . project manager: i think we yeah , i think that 's okay . marketing: but the colours , we do n't have special colours on it . user interface: no , we do n't have the colour . project manager: yeah , special co but we took into consideration the fact that it 's customisable user interface: so i marketing: yeah , project manager: to the fashi marketing: but we user interface: yes , but the end product so industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah , we do n't have it , so d project manager: we do n't have it we do have it , marketing: in the end product . project manager: it 's just sold as a package . industrial designer: but m project manager: it does it 's not part of the basic product . industrial designer: changing covers is also trend that we followed . project manager: it that that 's what i call trendy . i mean the shape is trendy . user interface: project manager: the the sh the the functions are trendy . it 's just the colours that are not supporting the basic model . because you ha marketing: now project manager: it 's just not affordable at the moment . user interface: maybe we should go with a two then , marketing: but it 's not a one . user interface: because it 's not perfect , because we ca n't do it initially , marketing: yeah . user interface: but we project manager: it 's possible , industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: oh . project manager: but you have to pay extra for the for the possibility of having it in a f a different colour . marketing: oh well oops . project manager: marketing: oh it 's a two , user interface: yeah . marketing: right ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: on the last one . uh that n that 's all . project manager: overall score . user interface: overall score . marketing: overall . it 's um project manager: one two three . sixteen . marketing: ten , sixteen three uh two project manager: two two point some two point something . marketing: two point seven or something like that . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: i do n't know why . user interface: ten , sixteen , divided by project manager: . industrial designer: six . marketing: six . user interface: is two two third . project manager: two and two thirds . marketing: um so project manager: marketing: we can say it 's it 's the product is it 's okay . project manager: it 's okay , but that 's yo m marketing: y not industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: mostly it 's it 's influenced by the fact that we did n't have enough resources to implement speech recognition . user interface: there 's industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause yeah , that gives you a seven , which ruins your your average . marketing: yeah . project manager: without that it would be like under it would n't yeah , it would be under two . so i think we have even with this it 's reasonable . marketing: woah . user interface: yeah , if we make it into a four , as in neutral , because we did n't implement it , so we ca n't say that we that it 's really not well implemented . we come out on a average of two one eighth . marketing: yeah . project manager: well i think it 's two is okay . user interface: so which is pretty w good . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , two is pretty good . user interface: it 's at least on the positive side . project manager: definitely . user interface: so we could definitely have done better if we 've had more resources , industrial designer: hmm , of course . marketing: yeah . user interface: but project manager: yeah , i think it 's probably i industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . project manager: i do admit that we d did miss a little or did n't sp did n't talk talk enough about the possibility of the lcd display . we could have used it more efficiently , marketing: yeah . project manager: we just did n't think of it that way . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , with . .. # user interface: true . project manager: so like i said , changing channels , everything hidden in your lcd display , so you just need the navigation buttons to do everything . marketing: the scale . industrial designer: but i think for this price , this is it 's really a reasonable product . project manager: i think we div i think we did very well , industrial designer: it 's a good product . project manager: uh ev even if you look at this score , we did quite well . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: oh . oh . yeah . marketing: with an lcd screen . project manager: it just looking for improvements what what you could have improved . so . industrial designer: but if pep people really want speech recognition , then they must be prepared to pu to pay more , because it 's can not be done for this . project manager: they sh they should get kids , and just stick 'em in tv and say change the channel . marketing: yeah , user interface: marketing: you can make 'em another one . industrial designer: hmm yeah . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: ah but for this price uh you can not ask that . project manager: i don ' think so . uh it 's just not it it 's not affordable . industrial designer: you can not th think of that project manager: or your sh you should lose the lcd screen probably , industrial designer: no , it 's not . project manager: but i think that 's i think the lcd screen is more worth than speech recognition . industrial designer: mm-hmm . oh it 's also more attractive . project manager: definitely . okay , that was that . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: so that 's the final product without the speakers , i guess . user interface: so did you project manager: let 's see , what was left in the the another one . hmm . yeah , marketing: project manager: we evaluate the product . general project , what 's i in for example , i thou i thought we were pretty creative in what we created . we took the whole new approach of making exchangeable cover for example , which i thought was pretty creative , because it was never never ever listed somewhere . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: favourite channel . project manager: well anyways . yeah , leadership is up to you . i mean perhaps i screwed up because i d put a put a speech recognition into it . but that 's not for me to decide . marketing: yeah , i know . yeah . project manager: i think we did pretty well as team-work though . because , yeah was very hard to work with one another if you can not communicate in the meantime , industrial designer: yes . hmm . project manager: because when i got the when i got the input for the financial results , initially of course i wanted to contact you . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah , you 're working separate . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: say , look , this is you 're doing the wrong thing , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: huh . project manager: you 're s you 're wasting your time now , because we 're implementing stuff that we can not afford . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah , yeah yeah . project manager: so it would be better if y if there was more communication between uh industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah yeah yeah . direct uh communication with yeah . project manager: because that 's that 's what would w you what you would normally do , either call or email someone . user interface: and we could share information which we received . project manager: so that was too bad industrial designer: hmm . project manager: con was impossible here anyways . . industrial designer: that 's the same thing that i had in the beginning . everybody was using materials that s i did n't have . project manager: it did n't have industrial designer: so project manager: or did n't knew what they costs or whatever . marketing: yeah . project manager: there was just too little information about what things actually cost and if you could use them . industrial designer: oh . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so that was a little unclear i suppose . i think a smartboard smartboard is pretty cool . i think uh s especially for design issues , it 's very easy just to give your give your thoughts a little it 's easier to share them . marketing: my handwriting is little bit yeah . yeah . user interface: although for actual design i 'd say the response time should be a little bit higher , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: it 's a little less it the response time is le it 's very bad . user interface: because industrial designer: hmm . project manager: it 's good to visualise everything , but i think the response time should could be a lot better . user interface: the digital pen was definitely better to draw my ideas and to further elaborate on that . marketing: but th that 's project manager: definitely . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , it 's true . marketing: yeah , okay . user interface: so industrial designer: but there 's uh also one problem with this i noticed . uh you have to finish a page before going to a n project manager: no , you do n't have to . no , you do n't . marketing: no . project manager: i jin i did n't check the finish button . industrial designer: oh . marketing: you can project manager: i just you just ditch it and you can copy it or whatever . marketing: done and then it 's okay . industrial designer: okay , i saw that uh project manager: uh only if you uh check the notes or press done . then it um then you can then it exports to word automatically . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: but it 's not necessary to check either one of those two . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: you can just preview your p you can just preview your page in the in the programme . industrial designer: but i made marketing: oh , okay . industrial designer: okay , but i made three pages marketing: okay , yeah . industrial designer: and they were not finished . and when the third one was finished , i wanted to download it and then it was not possible anymore , because you have to close all the pinnits uh the pages before going further . project manager: okay , before starting a ne a new page . marketing: okay . project manager: okay , that could be b . industrial designer: exactly . so we can not work on more than one page at same time . that 's not possible . marketing: oh . project manager: okay . industrial designer: you have to finish it completely , marketing: hmm . user interface: oh can you ? okay . industrial designer: then download it , it 's then start a new one . project manager: yeah , okay . industrial designer: that 's not very uh handy , project manager: that 's industrial designer: but if you know that , then it 's not a problem . project manager: yeah , it 's understandable , okay . any new ideas ? yeah , more communication between between uh that 's the thing i noticed , that communication is very um very important , industrial designer: marketing: important to mm project manager: because if you get new information , it 's essential f for the other team-mates to know that as soon as possible , because you would avoid making doing extra work , because you were doing extra work now uh m working on the on the speech recognition , you have limitation both on the technical on the d on the design side . marketing: yeah . project manager: so i think that could have been better . but that 's i think it 's more of a a setting here that you can not communicate than uh than somewhere else . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so user interface: yeah , well it could also possibly be well , is it a more real-time information base , so we can all see which information is available to one another . project manager: yeah , i think so . and l less p less spam probably . i 'm not sure i i 'm not sure you got spammed as well , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: but i get spammed like every t every two minutes there was a there was another email about master classes or something . industrial designer: ah . well project manager: so industrial designer: hmm . project manager: which were totally useless actually . i thought i should probably look into them , but they were all useless . so i just user interface: well , i personally did not have that , marketing: mm project manager: oh okay . user interface: but that 's probably your l description . project manager: user interface: but i also did n't not really . but still , you had that as well . is that we finished up the design industrial designer: huh . user interface: and then we checked the website , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then there was just extra information . marketing: yeah , after after five minutes , uh industrial designer: . user interface: there was a little delay in the bit of a c crucial delay . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: yeah . project manager: i did n't have any uh more information , it 's just always the same here . so that 's that 's kind of a industrial designer: mm . marketing: email uh project manager: it would change , but not for me . so i 'd i had no extra information to go on that one than what you give me actually . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: i could n't do any research myself industrial designer: hmm . project manager: or i see , that 's industrial designer: hmm . project manager: yeah , w i could have done a little extra work probably , then marketing: it 's project manager: but i was busy enough anyway . so industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah . project manager: any new ideas found ? or is that a 'cause uh yeah , it 's well , industrial designer: no . project manager: probably is . user interface: how much time do we have for this anyway ? project manager: i have no clue . that 's like oh , but it should i industrial designer: . project manager: if the project is evaluated and it was it was in b within budget , we should celebrate . so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay , marketing: industrial designer: bring out the beer . user interface: champagne . project manager: uh okay , think that 's about it . uh marketing: i want one for my own . project manager: i 'm not sure what we should still do though uh t let 's see what all your tasks were finished , right ? what you ha from your assistant . so let 's marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i have no more email . my coach is uh being very silent now . project manager: okay , marketing: yeah , project manager: i should i think i sh marketing: my personal coach i project manager: i still have the the total report to finish up . i think we took very little time now , because yeah , we 're in agreement , everything the design is okay . the one thing we missed though , we do n't have a product name . marketing: what industrial designer: no , project manager: how about you cook a how about you cook up a product name ? user interface: product name . industrial designer: we have n't think above about that . marketing: yeah , name . industrial designer: huh . it 's better than thi i think than a serial number . sony uh t_r_ something uh f means nothing to me . uh project manager: just marketing: or fruit name . project manager: oh , think of a catchy name . i 'll be working on this until the beep until it beeps . so industrial designer: like fruit names . marketing: fruit name or something like that . project manager: what ? fruit ? marketing: the banana remote or something . project manager: you do n't want it to resemble a banana . marketing: i do n't know . yeah , it 's the form of it . project manager: it 's not yellow anyway . user interface: the bana 'cause it 's not yellow anymore . project manager: it 's not yellow anymore . marketing: yeah oh , yeah . project manager: it is curved , but marketing: uh yeah . uh user interface: well , uh i was going for the r_c_ deluxe , but it 's not really a catchy name or anything , project manager: no , user interface: it 's more project manager: it 's industrial designer: uh at least it 's not something with numbers . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: numbers are so meaningless to the people . i mean marketing: yeah . user interface: something with our company name , marketing: that 's true . user interface: can we do anything with that ? industrial designer: . user interface: maybe there 's something on the website which will help us out . marketing: reaction , real reaction . project manager: industrial designer: real reaction . user interface: the reaction deluxe . project manager: real reaction future r_c_ . step into the future of of remote controlling your tv . user interface: is that a name or a c campaign ? marketing: project manager: no that 's a that 's a catchy slogan . user interface: yeah . project manager: control your remote control . user interface: or the the real reactor . industrial designer: real react . project manager: i go for future r_c_ probably . something like it 's short f industrial designer: the real reactor , i do n't find that uh that bad at all . marketing: . project manager: real reactor ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh that that 's user interface: you should write it down as a an option . industrial designer: because our name is real reaction . project manager: that makes me think of different products than a remote control really . marketing: . user interface: project manager: i 'm not sure . real reaction in a real marketing: zapping . the user interface: so that 's one option . project manager: real reactor . did n't notice . industrial designer: i 'm looking for things in the name . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so that the first three letters are s the same . r_e_a_ r_e_a_ . user interface: should i write the banana down or project manager: i take f marketing: yeah , sure . project manager: yeah , take a banana . user interface: sure ? marketing: the banana . project manager: hmm . marketing: remote . banana recei r_c_ . industrial designer: the triple r_ . real reaction remotes control . triple r_ . marketing: remote . user interface: well i marketing: r_ three c_ . user interface: uh do you mean it like industrial designer: ? marketing: r_ three c_ . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: you mean it like this ? industrial designer: yeah , that marketing: real reaction remote control . r_ three c_ . oh yeah . industrial designer: . . project manager: no , not like that . it should be it should be longer , because it 's not a product name that you f print on a box . industrial designer: i think triple r_ . project manager: just write out triple , like a word triple r_c_ , triple stripe oh . triple dash r_ dash s s c_ . industrial designer: does n't sound ? marketing: yeah , triple r_ . industrial designer: yeah . ah . marketing: triple r_c_ . the triple r_c_ , yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: r_ s r_ three c_ . . project manager: r_ dash c_ . user interface: dash c_ ? industrial designer: i think i like it like this more . project manager: dash . triple r_ or triple r_c_ ? user interface: like a c_ right now or a dash in a c_ ? marketing: triple r_ dash . project manager: how about do both ? user interface: project manager: sure if it looks stupid . uh i think that the the r_c_ together takes away the the the image of it 's a triple industrial designer: hmm . project manager: uh the first the first one looks like it 's a triple remote control , industrial designer: mm . marketing: that project manager: but it 's only a single remote control . and it 's especially on the triple r_ that 's important . the real reaction remote . industrial designer: i would huh . i would lose the c_ marketing: yeah , this yeah . industrial designer: and just name it triple r_ . user interface: is it triple r_c_s ? no . project manager: industrial designer: it sounds like uh thinking about two different things and combining it . marketing: triple remote . industrial designer: i would just say triple r_s triple r_ marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , triple r_ yeah , you can user interface: well , that 's another option . industrial designer: that 's also short , catchy . marketing: it 's okay . project manager: yeah , triple r_ . user interface: okay , so which ones are we going to scratch definitely ? marketing: the banana . banana . project manager: banana remote . industrial designer: banana . user interface: i say this one as well . marketing: yeah , the deluxe . project manager: i think we 're all in agreement about the triple r_ . industrial designer: . project manager: i think triple r_ is cool . industrial designer: yes . user interface: triple r_ ? marketing: the r triple r_ . project manager: and it looks cool when you print it in font , looks pretty cool . user interface: triple r_ it is . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: did you do now ? project manager: just like this just and you just print triple r_ , it looks does n't look bad , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 's short , it 's okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so have to write my report now , i guess . um um yeah , so we have everything . we have the product , we have the costs , industrial designer: yep . project manager: we have the possibility of everything . marketing: it ca n't work . that will not project manager: okay . i think it 's adjourned . retire to my lair and finish the report . that was a short meeting . but efficient though . industrial designer: mm-hmm . the boss is always the last one to go home . so project manager: probably . see . okay , user interface: project manager: goodbye . marketing: okay . industrial designer: see you in a minute . marketing: damn . i will write that one in a word uh document . industrial designer: okay . project manager: could you guys draw me a picture of the final design to put on the cover of the report ? user interface: yeah , sure . marketing: industrial designer: ca n't we take this one ? marketing: oh sh industrial designer: otherwise we have to do it all over again . marketing: um user interface: i do n't really know whether we can save it as a picture or no . industrial designer: is it okay if i try ? is that okay with you ? user interface: sure . marketing: yeah , okay , i will ask you when uh i need the information . industrial designer: i 'll put it back in a minute . marketing: so it 's oh . industrial designer: okay , it has been saving something , but where to i do n't know . marketing: uh oh . merge . industrial designer: oh , can i say exp yes , i can . marketing: sucks . industrial designer: export as j_ peg . . okay , can i not put this wherever i wants . my document is the wrong one , huh . marketing: yeah , but user interface: network places . marketing: i do n't know . smart no . industrial designer: . marketing: ma it 's maybe it 's not on the network of uh the rest . user interface: industrial designer: i do n't think so . marketing: that one is . . user interface: i would n't pick that one , no . industrial designer: document and settings . marketing: industrial designer: that 's a pity . that means that we have to gon na draw it again . are you gon na do that ? user interface: sure . industrial designer: okay . user interface: oh . industrial designer: that yes . okay . okay . okay . yes , that 's correct . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: no . oh , it 's export . marketing: oh yeah , . industrial designer: okay . marketing: can i see scores ? industrial designer: oh , of course . marketing: uh , one one , two threes , two industrial designer: sorry . marketing: okay , then we 'll overall , two points . yes . user interface: i see you later . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: mm .

the discussion in this meeting focused on detailed design . first of all , the prototype was presented , which was pretty much like what the group had agreed before , including the yellow colour , cover and buttons made by rubber , etc . however , what they had exceeded their expected budget . therefore , they had discussions on which features were okay to be taken out . they finally agreed on removing speech recognition , and the special colour . then they did an evaluation of their product , and overall they did well . to sum up this teamwork experience , the project manager emphasized the importance of the communications . at last , they had a discussion on the product name , and agreed on `` triple r '' .

what did the group discuss about the cost reduction and abandonment of certain features ? </s> project manager: can i close this ? user interface: uh we do n't have any changes , do we ? project manager: oh , okay . user interface: so no . project manager: there we go . okay , here we are again . detailed design oh , come on . well ah s forgot to insert the minutes , but it 's about the same thing we discussed before . uh could open that anyway , think . other design anyway , we took as we took w we took rubber as as the material last time . we also that you 're just busy with it . took the advanced chip to t uh implement the advanced features . well , we discussed the design , no sharp corners , we rounded it off , like you see on the other screen , which is fine . um we agreed that the colour should be b uh yellow and black . yellow in the back because it 's m trendy , more trendy than black anyway . so then we ca yeah . we agreed that we would implement both the lcd and speech recognition , but i 'll get to that in a moment . 'cause some changes in the finances have left us implications anyway . so so , like i said , we had no insight in finances , no prices , marketing: hmm . project manager: but we have 'em now , and it 's bad . anyway . we are oh . prototype presentation , well first you guys built the prototype . so you could could present that . but um let 's see what be handy to do . nee no , you just go ahead and present the w we 'll scrap it later because what ? industrial designer: i think it 's more or less the same as we had . user interface: it 's basically what we agreed upon , marketing: hmm ? project manager: oh that 's user interface: but just a little bit more specified . industrial designer: no much s project manager: has n't changed that much , huh ? industrial designer: no no no , not at all . project manager: i did n't expect anyway . you just coloured it . user interface: uh s final design . basically in what we discussed , cover and buttons will be made of rubber , yellow colour , black components , as you can see right over here . project manager: mm-hmm . i like the menu . user interface: we chose a different type of colour for the menu . a bit darker yellow so that it com really shows in this keypad . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: if you put them all black , it 's not really that good a contrast . project manager: and i suppose the the the yellow is not printed on the on the rubber . it 's it 's part of the rubber , i suppose . user interface: so probab project manager: i think that 's more i think that 's more durable anyway than printed on to user interface: yeah . that 's the be industrial designer: hmm . user interface: and it i guess it 's more easier to just paint it on the rubber industrial designer: yeah , of course . user interface: than to uh industrial designer: that 's uh the integration story again . marketing: mm yeah . okay . user interface: so we have it 's a bit round shaped , project manager: oh yeah . user interface: that 's what we had uh we chose the buttons to be uh teletext , okay button , favourite channel and the mute . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so that 's basically what we chose there . project manager: okay . user interface: if you have anything to add , please interrupt me . industrial designer: no , uh this is just a description of what we see there . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so user interface: oh . industrial designer: speaks for itself . marketing: yeah . user interface: that 's pretty much it . project manager: okay . now it 's my time to ruin everything . well , not ruin everything , but no , nah . user interface: oh sorry . project manager: finances , that 's what we have here , what you drew . we have battery power , we have advanced chips and the sam the sensor . the sample sensor and uh for speak recognition anyway . so which you see the which is de o one of the most expensive parts . so well , we have sin one curve , a design . rubber design . and we had a special colour . suppose yellow is a special colour . so just half a euro for you have pushbuttons and an lcd display . you have the total of seventeen euros in production cost , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: which is higher than the twelve and a half that we are permitted to use . so , marketing: hmm . project manager: easy . what do we scrap . well think i had the best solution that i came up with is just to s take out the speech recognition . industrial designer: i d user interface: i 'd say that too . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: because the lcd has more support on customer side . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: there are ninety one percent of uh the people , or something like that . but ninety percent who favour an lcd display , and only sixty percent that favour speech recognition . i think it 's also harder to user interface: uh we do n't really have a extra function with the speech sample , marketing: yeah . user interface: which you ca n't do with a normal remote control , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: . so i ju user interface: which people already do . so project manager: i took that out . so and so it 's still stuck with thirteen , so i had to take out the special colour i suppose . and , yeah , i did n't see anything else i could take out . yeah , i could take out the push-buttons , marketing: pushbut project manager: but we need those . so , generally what i came up with , in order to be cou to to have production cost of twelve and a half euros , spe scrap speech recognition industrial designer: huh . marketing: special colour , yeah . project manager: and the separate covers can account for the if people want it , we 'll just then we 'll do it in black . we 'll just deliver it in black , have the it has all the function that it 's supposed to have , and if you want it if you want the custom design , then you can buy the separate covers . user interface: well , project manager: you make it d orange or whatever you want . user interface: i 'd i tend to disagree with you on that , because the trend issue was a big issue when we started designing this . project manager: it was a big issue , but user interface: so ca n't we just basically extend it to thirteen ? project manager: i 'll just go back . uh let 's just let 's see what okay , let 's just see what we no , we we have to be under twelve and a half . marketing: yeah , it project manager: it it 's not marketing: the p project manager: uh the project is a no-go if we go over twelve and a half , industrial designer: okay , but there 's another problem . marketing: and the p project manager: so . user interface: okay . industrial designer: but there 's another problem . marketing: what industrial designer: if we take another cover , for instance black , then we also need another button frame , 'cause black and black does n't work obviously . project manager: i think you that 's what you were ass assigned to do really , to to see how b th both those work together . industrial designer: huh . huh . yeah . project manager: so i think yeah , it 's i think it 's y one of the it 's a good way to um to help people uh to make to keep the product trendy too . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: just keep you just make new covers for the for it , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: like we agreed before . industrial designer: right . i agree . project manager: and everything that 's left is is the basic function that uh that we want our product to have . because the expensive parts are in either the advanced chip . but we need that for the lcd display . user interface: yeah . we do . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: then again , we have the lcd display , which is also expensive . b yeah , but those go together . and yeah , we could take out the curve . industrial designer: or say let 's lose rubber , take plastic . user interface: we could take out a curve indeed . project manager: could we could take out the curve . is that an option ? industrial designer: yes . marketing: . project manager: for you ? industrial designer: although we are demolishing a little bit the style . marketing: but uh the and user interface: i think the colour is more important than the really the curve , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but project manager: user interface: because if you just end up with an entirely black remote control project manager: i think it 's it it does ruin it , marketing: yeah . the people project manager: but the fact that i t took that decision or t industrial designer: yeah . project manager: took this example actually , not really decision , but the example is because we do offer the um the possibility of adding your own custom covers . so you can change any colour you want . so it 's just you deliver a basic remote control with a possibility to change you into whatever you want . industrial designer: can we then not also uh change the material ? we take plastic for the basic cover project manager: you can take plastic , industrial designer: and project manager: but i d it 's something that 's stuck into my mind is that something that really came forward from the marketing research is that people like the the the the squishy feeling of the spongy feeling of the marketing: spongy , yeah . industrial designer: we can put those to the to the other covers . project manager: and it really makes it also makes it different from the existing remote controls , marketing: yeah . project manager: because they 're all plastic . marketing: and project manager: so which in in turn industrial designer: that 's true . project manager: rubber would increase durability industrial designer: but project manager: because it does n't break . industrial designer: okay . but what do you then suggest we 'd lose ? because we have to lose two things and i guess . project manager: i al like i said , i lost the speech recognition and i lost the special colour , marketing: but industrial designer: yes . project manager: which would make this black a black and grey . industrial designer: okay , and that 's enough ? project manager: yeah , that 's that that that 's enough , because user interface: so black and grey is okay . project manager: i guess those are the basic colours . marketing: but project manager: so oh . user interface: which we can fabricate , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: i think those are basic col they want to user interface: okay . marketing: the people want to pay for for it , so why why uh do we have to keep us uh uh um on the twelve and a half ? project manager: to ensure the profit . that that 's th that 's the order . we 're just uh we 're the project team and we got our our orders from the pro from the boss of our company marketing: yeah . project manager: which say we do n't wan na spend more than twelve fifty for this . marketing: but we can take a risk . project manager: but that 's not for our that 's not our decision to take . we have a budget of twelve fifty per product . user interface: no , we basically marketing: okay , yeah . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so user interface: we need to stick to that . project manager: stick that . i do n't think it 's really bad either . i mean if we we have the the backup of or the backup design thing marketing: i hope the people will like it , project manager: to have marketing: but project manager: i think they would do . th i think they do like because yo we you we agree upon that the that the the the cover thing was a nice idea , marketing: project manager: because p you could have all sort of designs while at the same time just manufacturing one product , one basic product which you could turn into any any taste you want . marketing: yeah . project manager: so i think it 's the best solution to make those cu custom covers for the design aspect industrial designer: perhaps we should make m marketing: yeah . project manager: and keep the functionality between of within the th the boundaries of the your f uh your budget . industrial designer: huh . marketing: the first sheet . project manager: so industrial designer: perhaps we should make clear to our customer that we had to do this to stay under the cost . and that 's uh they know that this is an option and that we had to drop the option to stay under the cost , that they know that . project manager: well i do n't think yeah . is it worth is it is it industrial designer: perhaps they decide tha user interface: but they do n't project manager: does it mean anything to the customer ? like , it like , we do n't care we do n't care that you had to industrial designer: of course . perhaps they uh no , but perhaps they think uh okay , the cover is such a nice idea , uh let 's that that then they uh that allow us to make some more costs . project manager: true , industrial designer: we ca we uh we can at least tell them that project manager: but we did we did n't get that . so i think it 's industrial designer: you do n't know that . project manager: it should either be a pack , maybe we sh that should be sold in in the s in stores with with a standard cover or something . user interface: well industrial designer: huh . project manager: but industrial designer: no , i 'm not uh talking about that cost but the one that g has given us the order to design this . we could at least m uh make it like this , like you said , project manager: they could , but uh industrial designer: and then tell them okay , we had to drop this and that , just that you know . it is an still an option , but not for this price . project manager: it 's an option , but yeah , it 's true . so actually uh it 's not that much of an increase , but yeah . we can not contact them . user interface: and if we project manager: it 's just the order that we got . industrial designer: exactly , project manager: so that 's what we got ta go with . industrial designer: but marketing: yeah . project manager: so it 's either one fi just just to get it f just to get it through final , it 's either turned into plastic , drop the squishy feel , make it make it more breakable , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um or turn it yellow . so it 's uh something we have to decide on . industrial designer: i 'd say lose the curve and the colour project manager: i say lose the curve . oh that 's true , industrial designer: and project manager: we could lose the c i forgot that , yeah , sorry . uh the curve . so user interface: so which curve is that ba project manager: that 's just this one just d this is the banana curve . user interface: that 's basically that curve . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so this would this would be straight . user interface: so we could u still have the comfort . marketing: yeah , that 's better . project manager: no , uh no , that would be a curve inside the thing , i guess . no , would ju then it would just be a straight remote . just like like that . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: which would , yeah , turn it into something far more ordinary . we could make it yellow then , user interface: i second that . project manager: but you second that , you second that we lose the curve . user interface: no , that it would turn out to be a pretty straight-forward remote control . project manager: okay , yeah . user interface: so that 's not really that marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: so i think it would be a good idea to keep the curve to separate it from the rest of the remote control world , so to speak . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so we keep the curve . so the only only solution is either to use the l y lose the yellow or lose the rubber . user interface: i would project manager: and i 'm in favour of keeping the rubber , because it has more more advantages than the colour yellow has . industrial designer: oh . i agree . user interface: yeah . i would say i would agree with you on the colour , industrial designer: no . marketing: yep . user interface: because that 's an extra option , an extra service we can deliver for a little bit of more money . project manager: mm-hmm . yeah , um user interface: so we can always do that . project manager: i guess people are willing to pay for that . so i think we can take that option and just with uh with the idea in the back of our head that you can customise your remote control . industrial designer: hmm ? marketing: yeah . project manager: so i think that would still make it a nice product . industrial designer: yes . project manager: okay , we 're final on that . so it 's too bad we ca n't make the whole super thing . but anyways we 're here . um yeah . user interface: which is basically what we discussed . project manager: this we discussed just now . that 's just now just we could just discuss how the project went . i mean , was kind of marketing: and i want to do that . project manager: i sort of expected that everything would turn out this way , but because you yeah , everything can not be for free . we did n't i think it was too bad we did n't have the financial info the last time . because that was i th user interface: yes , industrial designer: huh . project manager: it was really essential really user interface: we could have project manager: to ma because we spent uh uh entire stage designing a product of which we had no idea what it would cost . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so we just put something marketing: yeah . project manager: i think it 's really nor not in stroke with reality actually . marketing: project manager: so industrial designer: me too , i felt a bit blind throughout the project , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: because in the beginning i had no list of available materials , project manager: yeah , i think would have been . marketing: yeah . project manager: materials would be ok industrial designer: and then i d had not list of available c finances . marketing: but project manager: at least the last meeting i would have expected had to have that . industrial designer: so project manager: so i suppose marketing: let 's um see um project manager: yeah , let 's see if it sells . i mean i suppose this sells , because it 's very very extended . marketing: um project manager: but user interface: well i hope it sells . marketing: let 's uh project manager: i suppose it sells , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: because it 's good . marketing: oh . project manager: i mean it 's got everything for the for the reasonable price , because we did n't know what it 's gon na cost anyway . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: marketing: hmm . okay , let 's eval evaluate uh the product of us , our design . um i have some uh a method , a requirements and scale of . i uh will pre present uh some statements and we will decided together wha what if it 's true or false project manager: okay . marketing: and uh then we see uh if the requirements of the user are fulfilled or not . project manager: have been met , okay . marketing: and i will uh make a new blank sheet project manager: yeah . marketing: so so the buttons , the look and feel . i thought it was okay , but the advanced uh settings , um screen , audio and channel project manager: they 're stuck under menu . user interface: which are basically accessible through the menu button . marketing: we are not project manager: for the menu . i think those are totally met , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: because we we really took them for the they have the feel they want , marketing: oh the menu button is it . user interface: yeah . marketing: hi oh , okay . project manager: they have the simplicity they want . marketing: then it 's all uh s project manager: i think it 's very uh very well met . either two or one maybe . industrial designer: one . marketing: it 's true . project manager: i think we took that everything they wanted into consideration . marketing: yeah . project manager: so it could either be a two or a one . marketing: so d oh wait . uh pen . project manager: one and a half . user interface: which is not an option . marketing: the p oh yeah , project manager: just create our own option . marketing: it 's red , okay , but look and feel is everybo it 's true . project manager: yeah . marketing: so anyone ? and the next one uh yeah , when it 's lost uh you can find it . project manager: it 's perfect . even for deaf people , yeah . marketing: it 's project manager: it 's i do n't think it 's perfect , but we did everything possible to to get it back . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: to make it that way , yeah . project manager: because if it 's stuck in you couch , you can see the light . maybe you can hear it . but i mean we tried , marketing: yeah . project manager: so i think it that 's that deserves a one . definitely . marketing: and it 's and it 's yeah . to . that 's okay then . and the next one . how is that ? uh w we had we do n't have an uh manual , industrial designer: manual . project manager: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think the lcd display could be a little bit more difficult then a normal remote control , marketing: but i think that 's a part of it . but project manager: i 'd use an remote control . user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: but then again , it 's for young people . so marketing: yeah , an lcd , it tells a lot about uh user interface: and it 's pretty straight-forward , industrial designer: yeah , i th project manager: it 's pretty straight-forward , uh-huh . user interface: you have a navigation no keys to navigate through the lcd menus . industrial designer: exactly . no , that 's true . i think it wo n't be a big problem . marketing: yeah . user interface: so marketing: so it 's a one user interface: one i d no , marketing: or a i do n't know . user interface: actu project manager: i think but we did n't even marketing: for the advanced uh settings . project manager: there was no issue on making a manual actually . we did n't really discuss it , marketing: no okay , that uh that 's true . project manager: but i do n't think it takes no , it really does does n't take time to learn , i think . we took it s it 's so easy , user interface: no , it it is pretty straight-forward . marketing: oh , so it project manager: we have so little button , everything speaks for itself really . so i think that 's industrial designer: ah . um project manager: yeah , we did n't it 's either two or one , i guess . marketing: takes no ti project manager: maybe it 's a two , because d uh the lcd is a little is a little new and there is there are some option hidden under the menu button . industrial designer: with the more important functions on . marketing: yeah . project manager: so i might make this a two instead of a one , i guess . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: and the lcd , you have to see it . project manager: so just make that a two . marketing: um mm oh , it 's a little bit learning . okay . uh yeah it 's uh a little bit same . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: but it tells you or not ? project manager: you can use the lcd in a good way . i think so . i think it 's perfect , the w where it is , what it can do , if it useful . i think so . marketing: but wha w industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: oh , yeah . what are we uh displaying on the lcd screen ? just uh only the channels and or industrial designer: the menus uh things like brightness and uh those kind of things we 've put in the menu , marketing: what uh ? industrial designer: because we have no buttons for those . user interface: well , basically the menu options indeed . but marketing: oh , in the lcd screen . project manager: no , y i mean in the lcd screen , the small screen . what does it display ? industrial designer: yes . marketing: and for a channel selection , uh or that 's not project manager: well i thought it was i thought it was i thought that people wanted previews on their i 'm not sure if that even possible , marketing: yeah , i thought i thought too project manager: but marketing: but project manager: 'cause it 's this requires a quite quite a bit of band-width . marketing: yeah . project manager: i do n't think it 's possible really . but the they did n't really define in what should be used for . user interface: no . marketing: maybe a tv guide or something in your lcd uh project manager: but i think in for example like tv guides , i think that 's that th that you can transmit through it and everything . just for extra information on your programmes . industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah . yeah , it must be clear then what what what for we use it . project manager: but also things like like like menus or p how about preferences of your uh with configuring your remote control for favourite your favourite channel for example , how do you configure that . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so that could be done by lcd display . i think it 's good . no , maybe it 's not a one because it 's we 're not using it perfectly . we did n't give it i do n't thing over-discussing . now we gave it enough thought though . i think we d should just lower this . marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe maybe it 's a three though . we could 've used it more effectively probably . marketing: yeah , indeed . project manager: marketing: so everybody 's agree with an uh three on it , project manager: yeah , we are using it , user interface: yeah . two or three . industrial designer: yes . marketing: it 's project manager: but it 's not marketing: w project manager: it 's not poorly used , but it 's not efficiently used , i think . user interface: so marketing: yeah . project manager: we could have ev even lost the selection button and uh done everything via lcd selection . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's now it 's just extra to illustrate im uh extra features , marketing: yeah , i project manager: but okay . marketing: a three . industrial designer: nah , it 's not really only an extra . user interface: you can seven . industrial designer: no menus . marketing: ah , nothing , that 's a seven . uh that 's uh industrial designer: think about project manager: can you talk to remote control ? user interface: or we could say it project manager: well , it ca n't talk anymore . so we scrap that . marketing: yeah . user interface: or we could say neutral , project manager: oh yeah user interface: we 'cause we scratched the project manager: just to be a prick , user interface: c project manager: but of course you can talk to your remote control , it does n't do anything . marketing: yeah yeah yeah yeah . project manager: but you c you can talk to it . marketing: not with the speech recognition . uh yeah , all the trends and no colours uh anymore . so project manager: well , we did take everything into consideration of course . uh the shape i shape is i marketing: yeah , uh um only in the curves . project manager: i think we yeah , i think that 's okay . marketing: but the colours , we do n't have special colours on it . user interface: no , we do n't have the colour . project manager: yeah , special co but we took into consideration the fact that it 's customisable user interface: so i marketing: yeah , project manager: to the fashi marketing: but we user interface: yes , but the end product so industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah , we do n't have it , so d project manager: we do n't have it we do have it , marketing: in the end product . project manager: it 's just sold as a package . industrial designer: but m project manager: it does it 's not part of the basic product . industrial designer: changing covers is also trend that we followed . project manager: it that that 's what i call trendy . i mean the shape is trendy . user interface: project manager: the the sh the the functions are trendy . it 's just the colours that are not supporting the basic model . because you ha marketing: now project manager: it 's just not affordable at the moment . user interface: maybe we should go with a two then , marketing: but it 's not a one . user interface: because it 's not perfect , because we ca n't do it initially , marketing: yeah . user interface: but we project manager: it 's possible , industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: oh . project manager: but you have to pay extra for the for the possibility of having it in a f a different colour . marketing: oh well oops . project manager: marketing: oh it 's a two , user interface: yeah . marketing: right ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: on the last one . uh that n that 's all . project manager: overall score . user interface: overall score . marketing: overall . it 's um project manager: one two three . sixteen . marketing: ten , sixteen three uh two project manager: two two point some two point something . marketing: two point seven or something like that . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: i do n't know why . user interface: ten , sixteen , divided by project manager: . industrial designer: six . marketing: six . user interface: is two two third . project manager: two and two thirds . marketing: um so project manager: marketing: we can say it 's it 's the product is it 's okay . project manager: it 's okay , but that 's yo m marketing: y not industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: mostly it 's it 's influenced by the fact that we did n't have enough resources to implement speech recognition . user interface: there 's industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause yeah , that gives you a seven , which ruins your your average . marketing: yeah . project manager: without that it would be like under it would n't yeah , it would be under two . so i think we have even with this it 's reasonable . marketing: woah . user interface: yeah , if we make it into a four , as in neutral , because we did n't implement it , so we ca n't say that we that it 's really not well implemented . we come out on a average of two one eighth . marketing: yeah . project manager: well i think it 's two is okay . user interface: so which is pretty w good . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , two is pretty good . user interface: it 's at least on the positive side . project manager: definitely . user interface: so we could definitely have done better if we 've had more resources , industrial designer: hmm , of course . marketing: yeah . user interface: but project manager: yeah , i think it 's probably i industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . project manager: i do admit that we d did miss a little or did n't sp did n't talk talk enough about the possibility of the lcd display . we could have used it more efficiently , marketing: yeah . project manager: we just did n't think of it that way . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , with . .. # user interface: true . project manager: so like i said , changing channels , everything hidden in your lcd display , so you just need the navigation buttons to do everything . marketing: the scale . industrial designer: but i think for this price , this is it 's really a reasonable product . project manager: i think we div i think we did very well , industrial designer: it 's a good product . project manager: uh ev even if you look at this score , we did quite well . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: oh . oh . yeah . marketing: with an lcd screen . project manager: it just looking for improvements what what you could have improved . so . industrial designer: but if pep people really want speech recognition , then they must be prepared to pu to pay more , because it 's can not be done for this . project manager: they sh they should get kids , and just stick 'em in tv and say change the channel . marketing: yeah , user interface: marketing: you can make 'em another one . industrial designer: hmm yeah . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: ah but for this price uh you can not ask that . project manager: i don ' think so . uh it 's just not it it 's not affordable . industrial designer: you can not th think of that project manager: or your sh you should lose the lcd screen probably , industrial designer: no , it 's not . project manager: but i think that 's i think the lcd screen is more worth than speech recognition . industrial designer: mm-hmm . oh it 's also more attractive . project manager: definitely . okay , that was that . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: so that 's the final product without the speakers , i guess . user interface: so did you project manager: let 's see , what was left in the the another one . hmm . yeah , marketing: project manager: we evaluate the product . general project , what 's i in for example , i thou i thought we were pretty creative in what we created . we took the whole new approach of making exchangeable cover for example , which i thought was pretty creative , because it was never never ever listed somewhere . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: favourite channel . project manager: well anyways . yeah , leadership is up to you . i mean perhaps i screwed up because i d put a put a speech recognition into it . but that 's not for me to decide . marketing: yeah , i know . yeah . project manager: i think we did pretty well as team-work though . because , yeah was very hard to work with one another if you can not communicate in the meantime , industrial designer: yes . hmm . project manager: because when i got the when i got the input for the financial results , initially of course i wanted to contact you . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah , you 're working separate . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: say , look , this is you 're doing the wrong thing , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: huh . project manager: you 're s you 're wasting your time now , because we 're implementing stuff that we can not afford . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah , yeah yeah . project manager: so it would be better if y if there was more communication between uh industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah yeah yeah . direct uh communication with yeah . project manager: because that 's that 's what would w you what you would normally do , either call or email someone . user interface: and we could share information which we received . project manager: so that was too bad industrial designer: hmm . project manager: con was impossible here anyways . . industrial designer: that 's the same thing that i had in the beginning . everybody was using materials that s i did n't have . project manager: it did n't have industrial designer: so project manager: or did n't knew what they costs or whatever . marketing: yeah . project manager: there was just too little information about what things actually cost and if you could use them . industrial designer: oh . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so that was a little unclear i suppose . i think a smartboard smartboard is pretty cool . i think uh s especially for design issues , it 's very easy just to give your give your thoughts a little it 's easier to share them . marketing: my handwriting is little bit yeah . yeah . user interface: although for actual design i 'd say the response time should be a little bit higher , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: it 's a little less it the response time is le it 's very bad . user interface: because industrial designer: hmm . project manager: it 's good to visualise everything , but i think the response time should could be a lot better . user interface: the digital pen was definitely better to draw my ideas and to further elaborate on that . marketing: but th that 's project manager: definitely . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , it 's true . marketing: yeah , okay . user interface: so industrial designer: but there 's uh also one problem with this i noticed . uh you have to finish a page before going to a n project manager: no , you do n't have to . no , you do n't . marketing: no . project manager: i jin i did n't check the finish button . industrial designer: oh . marketing: you can project manager: i just you just ditch it and you can copy it or whatever . marketing: done and then it 's okay . industrial designer: okay , i saw that uh project manager: uh only if you uh check the notes or press done . then it um then you can then it exports to word automatically . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: but it 's not necessary to check either one of those two . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: you can just preview your p you can just preview your page in the in the programme . industrial designer: but i made marketing: oh , okay . industrial designer: okay , but i made three pages marketing: okay , yeah . industrial designer: and they were not finished . and when the third one was finished , i wanted to download it and then it was not possible anymore , because you have to close all the pinnits uh the pages before going further . project manager: okay , before starting a ne a new page . marketing: okay . project manager: okay , that could be b . industrial designer: exactly . so we can not work on more than one page at same time . that 's not possible . marketing: oh . project manager: okay . industrial designer: you have to finish it completely , marketing: hmm . user interface: oh can you ? okay . industrial designer: then download it , it 's then start a new one . project manager: yeah , okay . industrial designer: that 's not very uh handy , project manager: that 's industrial designer: but if you know that , then it 's not a problem . project manager: yeah , it 's understandable , okay . any new ideas ? yeah , more communication between between uh that 's the thing i noticed , that communication is very um very important , industrial designer: marketing: important to mm project manager: because if you get new information , it 's essential f for the other team-mates to know that as soon as possible , because you would avoid making doing extra work , because you were doing extra work now uh m working on the on the speech recognition , you have limitation both on the technical on the d on the design side . marketing: yeah . project manager: so i think that could have been better . but that 's i think it 's more of a a setting here that you can not communicate than uh than somewhere else . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so user interface: yeah , well it could also possibly be well , is it a more real-time information base , so we can all see which information is available to one another . project manager: yeah , i think so . and l less p less spam probably . i 'm not sure i i 'm not sure you got spammed as well , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: but i get spammed like every t every two minutes there was a there was another email about master classes or something . industrial designer: ah . well project manager: so industrial designer: hmm . project manager: which were totally useless actually . i thought i should probably look into them , but they were all useless . so i just user interface: well , i personally did not have that , marketing: mm project manager: oh okay . user interface: but that 's probably your l description . project manager: user interface: but i also did n't not really . but still , you had that as well . is that we finished up the design industrial designer: huh . user interface: and then we checked the website , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then there was just extra information . marketing: yeah , after after five minutes , uh industrial designer: . user interface: there was a little delay in the bit of a c crucial delay . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: yeah . project manager: i did n't have any uh more information , it 's just always the same here . so that 's that 's kind of a industrial designer: mm . marketing: email uh project manager: it would change , but not for me . so i 'd i had no extra information to go on that one than what you give me actually . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: i could n't do any research myself industrial designer: hmm . project manager: or i see , that 's industrial designer: hmm . project manager: yeah , w i could have done a little extra work probably , then marketing: it 's project manager: but i was busy enough anyway . so industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah . project manager: any new ideas found ? or is that a 'cause uh yeah , it 's well , industrial designer: no . project manager: probably is . user interface: how much time do we have for this anyway ? project manager: i have no clue . that 's like oh , but it should i industrial designer: . project manager: if the project is evaluated and it was it was in b within budget , we should celebrate . so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay , marketing: industrial designer: bring out the beer . user interface: champagne . project manager: uh okay , think that 's about it . uh marketing: i want one for my own . project manager: i 'm not sure what we should still do though uh t let 's see what all your tasks were finished , right ? what you ha from your assistant . so let 's marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i have no more email . my coach is uh being very silent now . project manager: okay , marketing: yeah , project manager: i should i think i sh marketing: my personal coach i project manager: i still have the the total report to finish up . i think we took very little time now , because yeah , we 're in agreement , everything the design is okay . the one thing we missed though , we do n't have a product name . marketing: what industrial designer: no , project manager: how about you cook a how about you cook up a product name ? user interface: product name . industrial designer: we have n't think above about that . marketing: yeah , name . industrial designer: huh . it 's better than thi i think than a serial number . sony uh t_r_ something uh f means nothing to me . uh project manager: just marketing: or fruit name . project manager: oh , think of a catchy name . i 'll be working on this until the beep until it beeps . so industrial designer: like fruit names . marketing: fruit name or something like that . project manager: what ? fruit ? marketing: the banana remote or something . project manager: you do n't want it to resemble a banana . marketing: i do n't know . yeah , it 's the form of it . project manager: it 's not yellow anyway . user interface: the bana 'cause it 's not yellow anymore . project manager: it 's not yellow anymore . marketing: yeah oh , yeah . project manager: it is curved , but marketing: uh yeah . uh user interface: well , uh i was going for the r_c_ deluxe , but it 's not really a catchy name or anything , project manager: no , user interface: it 's more project manager: it 's industrial designer: uh at least it 's not something with numbers . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: numbers are so meaningless to the people . i mean marketing: yeah . user interface: something with our company name , marketing: that 's true . user interface: can we do anything with that ? industrial designer: . user interface: maybe there 's something on the website which will help us out . marketing: reaction , real reaction . project manager: industrial designer: real reaction . user interface: the reaction deluxe . project manager: real reaction future r_c_ . step into the future of of remote controlling your tv . user interface: is that a name or a c campaign ? marketing: project manager: no that 's a that 's a catchy slogan . user interface: yeah . project manager: control your remote control . user interface: or the the real reactor . industrial designer: real react . project manager: i go for future r_c_ probably . something like it 's short f industrial designer: the real reactor , i do n't find that uh that bad at all . marketing: . project manager: real reactor ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh that that 's user interface: you should write it down as a an option . industrial designer: because our name is real reaction . project manager: that makes me think of different products than a remote control really . marketing: . user interface: project manager: i 'm not sure . real reaction in a real marketing: zapping . the user interface: so that 's one option . project manager: real reactor . did n't notice . industrial designer: i 'm looking for things in the name . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so that the first three letters are s the same . r_e_a_ r_e_a_ . user interface: should i write the banana down or project manager: i take f marketing: yeah , sure . project manager: yeah , take a banana . user interface: sure ? marketing: the banana . project manager: hmm . marketing: remote . banana recei r_c_ . industrial designer: the triple r_ . real reaction remotes control . triple r_ . marketing: remote . user interface: well i marketing: r_ three c_ . user interface: uh do you mean it like industrial designer: ? marketing: r_ three c_ . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: you mean it like this ? industrial designer: yeah , that marketing: real reaction remote control . r_ three c_ . oh yeah . industrial designer: . . project manager: no , not like that . it should be it should be longer , because it 's not a product name that you f print on a box . industrial designer: i think triple r_ . project manager: just write out triple , like a word triple r_c_ , triple stripe oh . triple dash r_ dash s s c_ . industrial designer: does n't sound ? marketing: yeah , triple r_ . industrial designer: yeah . ah . marketing: triple r_c_ . the triple r_c_ , yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: r_ s r_ three c_ . . project manager: r_ dash c_ . user interface: dash c_ ? industrial designer: i think i like it like this more . project manager: dash . triple r_ or triple r_c_ ? user interface: like a c_ right now or a dash in a c_ ? marketing: triple r_ dash . project manager: how about do both ? user interface: project manager: sure if it looks stupid . uh i think that the the r_c_ together takes away the the the image of it 's a triple industrial designer: hmm . project manager: uh the first the first one looks like it 's a triple remote control , industrial designer: mm . marketing: that project manager: but it 's only a single remote control . and it 's especially on the triple r_ that 's important . the real reaction remote . industrial designer: i would huh . i would lose the c_ marketing: yeah , this yeah . industrial designer: and just name it triple r_ . user interface: is it triple r_c_s ? no . project manager: industrial designer: it sounds like uh thinking about two different things and combining it . marketing: triple remote . industrial designer: i would just say triple r_s triple r_ marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , triple r_ yeah , you can user interface: well , that 's another option . industrial designer: that 's also short , catchy . marketing: it 's okay . project manager: yeah , triple r_ . user interface: okay , so which ones are we going to scratch definitely ? marketing: the banana . banana . project manager: banana remote . industrial designer: banana . user interface: i say this one as well . marketing: yeah , the deluxe . project manager: i think we 're all in agreement about the triple r_ . industrial designer: . project manager: i think triple r_ is cool . industrial designer: yes . user interface: triple r_ ? marketing: the r triple r_ . project manager: and it looks cool when you print it in font , looks pretty cool . user interface: triple r_ it is . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: did you do now ? project manager: just like this just and you just print triple r_ , it looks does n't look bad , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 's short , it 's okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so have to write my report now , i guess . um um yeah , so we have everything . we have the product , we have the costs , industrial designer: yep . project manager: we have the possibility of everything . marketing: it ca n't work . that will not project manager: okay . i think it 's adjourned . retire to my lair and finish the report . that was a short meeting . but efficient though . industrial designer: mm-hmm . the boss is always the last one to go home . so project manager: probably . see . okay , user interface: project manager: goodbye . marketing: okay . industrial designer: see you in a minute . marketing: damn . i will write that one in a word uh document . industrial designer: okay . project manager: could you guys draw me a picture of the final design to put on the cover of the report ? user interface: yeah , sure . marketing: industrial designer: ca n't we take this one ? marketing: oh sh industrial designer: otherwise we have to do it all over again . marketing: um user interface: i do n't really know whether we can save it as a picture or no . industrial designer: is it okay if i try ? is that okay with you ? user interface: sure . marketing: yeah , okay , i will ask you when uh i need the information . industrial designer: i 'll put it back in a minute . marketing: so it 's oh . industrial designer: okay , it has been saving something , but where to i do n't know . marketing: uh oh . merge . industrial designer: oh , can i say exp yes , i can . marketing: sucks . industrial designer: export as j_ peg . . okay , can i not put this wherever i wants . my document is the wrong one , huh . marketing: yeah , but user interface: network places . marketing: i do n't know . smart no . industrial designer: . marketing: ma it 's maybe it 's not on the network of uh the rest . user interface: industrial designer: i do n't think so . marketing: that one is . . user interface: i would n't pick that one , no . industrial designer: document and settings . marketing: industrial designer: that 's a pity . that means that we have to gon na draw it again . are you gon na do that ? user interface: sure . industrial designer: okay . user interface: oh . industrial designer: that yes . okay . okay . okay . yes , that 's correct . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: no . oh , it 's export . marketing: oh yeah , . industrial designer: okay . marketing: can i see scores ? industrial designer: oh , of course . marketing: uh , one one , two threes , two industrial designer: sorry . marketing: okay , then we 'll overall , two points . yes . user interface: i see you later . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: mm .

they all agreed that speech recognition could be taken out , because lcd had more support on the customer side , and it did not give an extra function compared to other normal remote controls . as for the special colour , they had some disagreements initially , since user interface thought it could not reflect the current trend anymore if it was taken out . however , after evaluating dropping other features such as rubber or curve , they agreed that both of them brought more advantages than the special colour . besides , the colour could be made up by using special covers .

what did the project manager think of the speech recognition when discussing abandonment of certain features ? </s> project manager: can i close this ? user interface: uh we do n't have any changes , do we ? project manager: oh , okay . user interface: so no . project manager: there we go . okay , here we are again . detailed design oh , come on . well ah s forgot to insert the minutes , but it 's about the same thing we discussed before . uh could open that anyway , think . other design anyway , we took as we took w we took rubber as as the material last time . we also that you 're just busy with it . took the advanced chip to t uh implement the advanced features . well , we discussed the design , no sharp corners , we rounded it off , like you see on the other screen , which is fine . um we agreed that the colour should be b uh yellow and black . yellow in the back because it 's m trendy , more trendy than black anyway . so then we ca yeah . we agreed that we would implement both the lcd and speech recognition , but i 'll get to that in a moment . 'cause some changes in the finances have left us implications anyway . so so , like i said , we had no insight in finances , no prices , marketing: hmm . project manager: but we have 'em now , and it 's bad . anyway . we are oh . prototype presentation , well first you guys built the prototype . so you could could present that . but um let 's see what be handy to do . nee no , you just go ahead and present the w we 'll scrap it later because what ? industrial designer: i think it 's more or less the same as we had . user interface: it 's basically what we agreed upon , marketing: hmm ? project manager: oh that 's user interface: but just a little bit more specified . industrial designer: no much s project manager: has n't changed that much , huh ? industrial designer: no no no , not at all . project manager: i did n't expect anyway . you just coloured it . user interface: uh s final design . basically in what we discussed , cover and buttons will be made of rubber , yellow colour , black components , as you can see right over here . project manager: mm-hmm . i like the menu . user interface: we chose a different type of colour for the menu . a bit darker yellow so that it com really shows in this keypad . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: if you put them all black , it 's not really that good a contrast . project manager: and i suppose the the the yellow is not printed on the on the rubber . it 's it 's part of the rubber , i suppose . user interface: so probab project manager: i think that 's more i think that 's more durable anyway than printed on to user interface: yeah . that 's the be industrial designer: hmm . user interface: and it i guess it 's more easier to just paint it on the rubber industrial designer: yeah , of course . user interface: than to uh industrial designer: that 's uh the integration story again . marketing: mm yeah . okay . user interface: so we have it 's a bit round shaped , project manager: oh yeah . user interface: that 's what we had uh we chose the buttons to be uh teletext , okay button , favourite channel and the mute . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so that 's basically what we chose there . project manager: okay . user interface: if you have anything to add , please interrupt me . industrial designer: no , uh this is just a description of what we see there . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so user interface: oh . industrial designer: speaks for itself . marketing: yeah . user interface: that 's pretty much it . project manager: okay . now it 's my time to ruin everything . well , not ruin everything , but no , nah . user interface: oh sorry . project manager: finances , that 's what we have here , what you drew . we have battery power , we have advanced chips and the sam the sensor . the sample sensor and uh for speak recognition anyway . so which you see the which is de o one of the most expensive parts . so well , we have sin one curve , a design . rubber design . and we had a special colour . suppose yellow is a special colour . so just half a euro for you have pushbuttons and an lcd display . you have the total of seventeen euros in production cost , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: which is higher than the twelve and a half that we are permitted to use . so , marketing: hmm . project manager: easy . what do we scrap . well think i had the best solution that i came up with is just to s take out the speech recognition . industrial designer: i d user interface: i 'd say that too . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: because the lcd has more support on customer side . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: there are ninety one percent of uh the people , or something like that . but ninety percent who favour an lcd display , and only sixty percent that favour speech recognition . i think it 's also harder to user interface: uh we do n't really have a extra function with the speech sample , marketing: yeah . user interface: which you ca n't do with a normal remote control , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: . so i ju user interface: which people already do . so project manager: i took that out . so and so it 's still stuck with thirteen , so i had to take out the special colour i suppose . and , yeah , i did n't see anything else i could take out . yeah , i could take out the push-buttons , marketing: pushbut project manager: but we need those . so , generally what i came up with , in order to be cou to to have production cost of twelve and a half euros , spe scrap speech recognition industrial designer: huh . marketing: special colour , yeah . project manager: and the separate covers can account for the if people want it , we 'll just then we 'll do it in black . we 'll just deliver it in black , have the it has all the function that it 's supposed to have , and if you want it if you want the custom design , then you can buy the separate covers . user interface: well , project manager: you make it d orange or whatever you want . user interface: i 'd i tend to disagree with you on that , because the trend issue was a big issue when we started designing this . project manager: it was a big issue , but user interface: so ca n't we just basically extend it to thirteen ? project manager: i 'll just go back . uh let 's just let 's see what okay , let 's just see what we no , we we have to be under twelve and a half . marketing: yeah , it project manager: it it 's not marketing: the p project manager: uh the project is a no-go if we go over twelve and a half , industrial designer: okay , but there 's another problem . marketing: and the p project manager: so . user interface: okay . industrial designer: but there 's another problem . marketing: what industrial designer: if we take another cover , for instance black , then we also need another button frame , 'cause black and black does n't work obviously . project manager: i think you that 's what you were ass assigned to do really , to to see how b th both those work together . industrial designer: huh . huh . yeah . project manager: so i think yeah , it 's i think it 's y one of the it 's a good way to um to help people uh to make to keep the product trendy too . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: just keep you just make new covers for the for it , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: like we agreed before . industrial designer: right . i agree . project manager: and everything that 's left is is the basic function that uh that we want our product to have . because the expensive parts are in either the advanced chip . but we need that for the lcd display . user interface: yeah . we do . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: then again , we have the lcd display , which is also expensive . b yeah , but those go together . and yeah , we could take out the curve . industrial designer: or say let 's lose rubber , take plastic . user interface: we could take out a curve indeed . project manager: could we could take out the curve . is that an option ? industrial designer: yes . marketing: . project manager: for you ? industrial designer: although we are demolishing a little bit the style . marketing: but uh the and user interface: i think the colour is more important than the really the curve , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but project manager: user interface: because if you just end up with an entirely black remote control project manager: i think it 's it it does ruin it , marketing: yeah . the people project manager: but the fact that i t took that decision or t industrial designer: yeah . project manager: took this example actually , not really decision , but the example is because we do offer the um the possibility of adding your own custom covers . so you can change any colour you want . so it 's just you deliver a basic remote control with a possibility to change you into whatever you want . industrial designer: can we then not also uh change the material ? we take plastic for the basic cover project manager: you can take plastic , industrial designer: and project manager: but i d it 's something that 's stuck into my mind is that something that really came forward from the marketing research is that people like the the the the squishy feeling of the spongy feeling of the marketing: spongy , yeah . industrial designer: we can put those to the to the other covers . project manager: and it really makes it also makes it different from the existing remote controls , marketing: yeah . project manager: because they 're all plastic . marketing: and project manager: so which in in turn industrial designer: that 's true . project manager: rubber would increase durability industrial designer: but project manager: because it does n't break . industrial designer: okay . but what do you then suggest we 'd lose ? because we have to lose two things and i guess . project manager: i al like i said , i lost the speech recognition and i lost the special colour , marketing: but industrial designer: yes . project manager: which would make this black a black and grey . industrial designer: okay , and that 's enough ? project manager: yeah , that 's that that that 's enough , because user interface: so black and grey is okay . project manager: i guess those are the basic colours . marketing: but project manager: so oh . user interface: which we can fabricate , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: i think those are basic col they want to user interface: okay . marketing: the people want to pay for for it , so why why uh do we have to keep us uh uh um on the twelve and a half ? project manager: to ensure the profit . that that 's th that 's the order . we 're just uh we 're the project team and we got our our orders from the pro from the boss of our company marketing: yeah . project manager: which say we do n't wan na spend more than twelve fifty for this . marketing: but we can take a risk . project manager: but that 's not for our that 's not our decision to take . we have a budget of twelve fifty per product . user interface: no , we basically marketing: okay , yeah . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so user interface: we need to stick to that . project manager: stick that . i do n't think it 's really bad either . i mean if we we have the the backup of or the backup design thing marketing: i hope the people will like it , project manager: to have marketing: but project manager: i think they would do . th i think they do like because yo we you we agree upon that the that the the the cover thing was a nice idea , marketing: project manager: because p you could have all sort of designs while at the same time just manufacturing one product , one basic product which you could turn into any any taste you want . marketing: yeah . project manager: so i think it 's the best solution to make those cu custom covers for the design aspect industrial designer: perhaps we should make m marketing: yeah . project manager: and keep the functionality between of within the th the boundaries of the your f uh your budget . industrial designer: huh . marketing: the first sheet . project manager: so industrial designer: perhaps we should make clear to our customer that we had to do this to stay under the cost . and that 's uh they know that this is an option and that we had to drop the option to stay under the cost , that they know that . project manager: well i do n't think yeah . is it worth is it is it industrial designer: perhaps they decide tha user interface: but they do n't project manager: does it mean anything to the customer ? like , it like , we do n't care we do n't care that you had to industrial designer: of course . perhaps they uh no , but perhaps they think uh okay , the cover is such a nice idea , uh let 's that that then they uh that allow us to make some more costs . project manager: true , industrial designer: we ca we uh we can at least tell them that project manager: but we did we did n't get that . so i think it 's industrial designer: you do n't know that . project manager: it should either be a pack , maybe we sh that should be sold in in the s in stores with with a standard cover or something . user interface: well industrial designer: huh . project manager: but industrial designer: no , i 'm not uh talking about that cost but the one that g has given us the order to design this . we could at least m uh make it like this , like you said , project manager: they could , but uh industrial designer: and then tell them okay , we had to drop this and that , just that you know . it is an still an option , but not for this price . project manager: it 's an option , but yeah , it 's true . so actually uh it 's not that much of an increase , but yeah . we can not contact them . user interface: and if we project manager: it 's just the order that we got . industrial designer: exactly , project manager: so that 's what we got ta go with . industrial designer: but marketing: yeah . project manager: so it 's either one fi just just to get it f just to get it through final , it 's either turned into plastic , drop the squishy feel , make it make it more breakable , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um or turn it yellow . so it 's uh something we have to decide on . industrial designer: i 'd say lose the curve and the colour project manager: i say lose the curve . oh that 's true , industrial designer: and project manager: we could lose the c i forgot that , yeah , sorry . uh the curve . so user interface: so which curve is that ba project manager: that 's just this one just d this is the banana curve . user interface: that 's basically that curve . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so this would this would be straight . user interface: so we could u still have the comfort . marketing: yeah , that 's better . project manager: no , uh no , that would be a curve inside the thing , i guess . no , would ju then it would just be a straight remote . just like like that . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: which would , yeah , turn it into something far more ordinary . we could make it yellow then , user interface: i second that . project manager: but you second that , you second that we lose the curve . user interface: no , that it would turn out to be a pretty straight-forward remote control . project manager: okay , yeah . user interface: so that 's not really that marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: so i think it would be a good idea to keep the curve to separate it from the rest of the remote control world , so to speak . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so we keep the curve . so the only only solution is either to use the l y lose the yellow or lose the rubber . user interface: i would project manager: and i 'm in favour of keeping the rubber , because it has more more advantages than the colour yellow has . industrial designer: oh . i agree . user interface: yeah . i would say i would agree with you on the colour , industrial designer: no . marketing: yep . user interface: because that 's an extra option , an extra service we can deliver for a little bit of more money . project manager: mm-hmm . yeah , um user interface: so we can always do that . project manager: i guess people are willing to pay for that . so i think we can take that option and just with uh with the idea in the back of our head that you can customise your remote control . industrial designer: hmm ? marketing: yeah . project manager: so i think that would still make it a nice product . industrial designer: yes . project manager: okay , we 're final on that . so it 's too bad we ca n't make the whole super thing . but anyways we 're here . um yeah . user interface: which is basically what we discussed . project manager: this we discussed just now . that 's just now just we could just discuss how the project went . i mean , was kind of marketing: and i want to do that . project manager: i sort of expected that everything would turn out this way , but because you yeah , everything can not be for free . we did n't i think it was too bad we did n't have the financial info the last time . because that was i th user interface: yes , industrial designer: huh . project manager: it was really essential really user interface: we could have project manager: to ma because we spent uh uh entire stage designing a product of which we had no idea what it would cost . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so we just put something marketing: yeah . project manager: i think it 's really nor not in stroke with reality actually . marketing: project manager: so industrial designer: me too , i felt a bit blind throughout the project , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: because in the beginning i had no list of available materials , project manager: yeah , i think would have been . marketing: yeah . project manager: materials would be ok industrial designer: and then i d had not list of available c finances . marketing: but project manager: at least the last meeting i would have expected had to have that . industrial designer: so project manager: so i suppose marketing: let 's um see um project manager: yeah , let 's see if it sells . i mean i suppose this sells , because it 's very very extended . marketing: um project manager: but user interface: well i hope it sells . marketing: let 's uh project manager: i suppose it sells , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: because it 's good . marketing: oh . project manager: i mean it 's got everything for the for the reasonable price , because we did n't know what it 's gon na cost anyway . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: marketing: hmm . okay , let 's eval evaluate uh the product of us , our design . um i have some uh a method , a requirements and scale of . i uh will pre present uh some statements and we will decided together wha what if it 's true or false project manager: okay . marketing: and uh then we see uh if the requirements of the user are fulfilled or not . project manager: have been met , okay . marketing: and i will uh make a new blank sheet project manager: yeah . marketing: so so the buttons , the look and feel . i thought it was okay , but the advanced uh settings , um screen , audio and channel project manager: they 're stuck under menu . user interface: which are basically accessible through the menu button . marketing: we are not project manager: for the menu . i think those are totally met , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: because we we really took them for the they have the feel they want , marketing: oh the menu button is it . user interface: yeah . marketing: hi oh , okay . project manager: they have the simplicity they want . marketing: then it 's all uh s project manager: i think it 's very uh very well met . either two or one maybe . industrial designer: one . marketing: it 's true . project manager: i think we took that everything they wanted into consideration . marketing: yeah . project manager: so it could either be a two or a one . marketing: so d oh wait . uh pen . project manager: one and a half . user interface: which is not an option . marketing: the p oh yeah , project manager: just create our own option . marketing: it 's red , okay , but look and feel is everybo it 's true . project manager: yeah . marketing: so anyone ? and the next one uh yeah , when it 's lost uh you can find it . project manager: it 's perfect . even for deaf people , yeah . marketing: it 's project manager: it 's i do n't think it 's perfect , but we did everything possible to to get it back . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: to make it that way , yeah . project manager: because if it 's stuck in you couch , you can see the light . maybe you can hear it . but i mean we tried , marketing: yeah . project manager: so i think it that 's that deserves a one . definitely . marketing: and it 's and it 's yeah . to . that 's okay then . and the next one . how is that ? uh w we had we do n't have an uh manual , industrial designer: manual . project manager: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think the lcd display could be a little bit more difficult then a normal remote control , marketing: but i think that 's a part of it . but project manager: i 'd use an remote control . user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: but then again , it 's for young people . so marketing: yeah , an lcd , it tells a lot about uh user interface: and it 's pretty straight-forward , industrial designer: yeah , i th project manager: it 's pretty straight-forward , uh-huh . user interface: you have a navigation no keys to navigate through the lcd menus . industrial designer: exactly . no , that 's true . i think it wo n't be a big problem . marketing: yeah . user interface: so marketing: so it 's a one user interface: one i d no , marketing: or a i do n't know . user interface: actu project manager: i think but we did n't even marketing: for the advanced uh settings . project manager: there was no issue on making a manual actually . we did n't really discuss it , marketing: no okay , that uh that 's true . project manager: but i do n't think it takes no , it really does does n't take time to learn , i think . we took it s it 's so easy , user interface: no , it it is pretty straight-forward . marketing: oh , so it project manager: we have so little button , everything speaks for itself really . so i think that 's industrial designer: ah . um project manager: yeah , we did n't it 's either two or one , i guess . marketing: takes no ti project manager: maybe it 's a two , because d uh the lcd is a little is a little new and there is there are some option hidden under the menu button . industrial designer: with the more important functions on . marketing: yeah . project manager: so i might make this a two instead of a one , i guess . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: and the lcd , you have to see it . project manager: so just make that a two . marketing: um mm oh , it 's a little bit learning . okay . uh yeah it 's uh a little bit same . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: but it tells you or not ? project manager: you can use the lcd in a good way . i think so . i think it 's perfect , the w where it is , what it can do , if it useful . i think so . marketing: but wha w industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: oh , yeah . what are we uh displaying on the lcd screen ? just uh only the channels and or industrial designer: the menus uh things like brightness and uh those kind of things we 've put in the menu , marketing: what uh ? industrial designer: because we have no buttons for those . user interface: well , basically the menu options indeed . but marketing: oh , in the lcd screen . project manager: no , y i mean in the lcd screen , the small screen . what does it display ? industrial designer: yes . marketing: and for a channel selection , uh or that 's not project manager: well i thought it was i thought it was i thought that people wanted previews on their i 'm not sure if that even possible , marketing: yeah , i thought i thought too project manager: but marketing: but project manager: 'cause it 's this requires a quite quite a bit of band-width . marketing: yeah . project manager: i do n't think it 's possible really . but the they did n't really define in what should be used for . user interface: no . marketing: maybe a tv guide or something in your lcd uh project manager: but i think in for example like tv guides , i think that 's that th that you can transmit through it and everything . just for extra information on your programmes . industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah . yeah , it must be clear then what what what for we use it . project manager: but also things like like like menus or p how about preferences of your uh with configuring your remote control for favourite your favourite channel for example , how do you configure that . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so that could be done by lcd display . i think it 's good . no , maybe it 's not a one because it 's we 're not using it perfectly . we did n't give it i do n't thing over-discussing . now we gave it enough thought though . i think we d should just lower this . marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe maybe it 's a three though . we could 've used it more effectively probably . marketing: yeah , indeed . project manager: marketing: so everybody 's agree with an uh three on it , project manager: yeah , we are using it , user interface: yeah . two or three . industrial designer: yes . marketing: it 's project manager: but it 's not marketing: w project manager: it 's not poorly used , but it 's not efficiently used , i think . user interface: so marketing: yeah . project manager: we could have ev even lost the selection button and uh done everything via lcd selection . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's now it 's just extra to illustrate im uh extra features , marketing: yeah , i project manager: but okay . marketing: a three . industrial designer: nah , it 's not really only an extra . user interface: you can seven . industrial designer: no menus . marketing: ah , nothing , that 's a seven . uh that 's uh industrial designer: think about project manager: can you talk to remote control ? user interface: or we could say it project manager: well , it ca n't talk anymore . so we scrap that . marketing: yeah . user interface: or we could say neutral , project manager: oh yeah user interface: we 'cause we scratched the project manager: just to be a prick , user interface: c project manager: but of course you can talk to your remote control , it does n't do anything . marketing: yeah yeah yeah yeah . project manager: but you c you can talk to it . marketing: not with the speech recognition . uh yeah , all the trends and no colours uh anymore . so project manager: well , we did take everything into consideration of course . uh the shape i shape is i marketing: yeah , uh um only in the curves . project manager: i think we yeah , i think that 's okay . marketing: but the colours , we do n't have special colours on it . user interface: no , we do n't have the colour . project manager: yeah , special co but we took into consideration the fact that it 's customisable user interface: so i marketing: yeah , project manager: to the fashi marketing: but we user interface: yes , but the end product so industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah , we do n't have it , so d project manager: we do n't have it we do have it , marketing: in the end product . project manager: it 's just sold as a package . industrial designer: but m project manager: it does it 's not part of the basic product . industrial designer: changing covers is also trend that we followed . project manager: it that that 's what i call trendy . i mean the shape is trendy . user interface: project manager: the the sh the the functions are trendy . it 's just the colours that are not supporting the basic model . because you ha marketing: now project manager: it 's just not affordable at the moment . user interface: maybe we should go with a two then , marketing: but it 's not a one . user interface: because it 's not perfect , because we ca n't do it initially , marketing: yeah . user interface: but we project manager: it 's possible , industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: oh . project manager: but you have to pay extra for the for the possibility of having it in a f a different colour . marketing: oh well oops . project manager: marketing: oh it 's a two , user interface: yeah . marketing: right ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: on the last one . uh that n that 's all . project manager: overall score . user interface: overall score . marketing: overall . it 's um project manager: one two three . sixteen . marketing: ten , sixteen three uh two project manager: two two point some two point something . marketing: two point seven or something like that . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: i do n't know why . user interface: ten , sixteen , divided by project manager: . industrial designer: six . marketing: six . user interface: is two two third . project manager: two and two thirds . marketing: um so project manager: marketing: we can say it 's it 's the product is it 's okay . project manager: it 's okay , but that 's yo m marketing: y not industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: mostly it 's it 's influenced by the fact that we did n't have enough resources to implement speech recognition . user interface: there 's industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause yeah , that gives you a seven , which ruins your your average . marketing: yeah . project manager: without that it would be like under it would n't yeah , it would be under two . so i think we have even with this it 's reasonable . marketing: woah . user interface: yeah , if we make it into a four , as in neutral , because we did n't implement it , so we ca n't say that we that it 's really not well implemented . we come out on a average of two one eighth . marketing: yeah . project manager: well i think it 's two is okay . user interface: so which is pretty w good . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , two is pretty good . user interface: it 's at least on the positive side . project manager: definitely . user interface: so we could definitely have done better if we 've had more resources , industrial designer: hmm , of course . marketing: yeah . user interface: but project manager: yeah , i think it 's probably i industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . project manager: i do admit that we d did miss a little or did n't sp did n't talk talk enough about the possibility of the lcd display . we could have used it more efficiently , marketing: yeah . project manager: we just did n't think of it that way . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , with . .. # user interface: true . project manager: so like i said , changing channels , everything hidden in your lcd display , so you just need the navigation buttons to do everything . marketing: the scale . industrial designer: but i think for this price , this is it 's really a reasonable product . project manager: i think we div i think we did very well , industrial designer: it 's a good product . project manager: uh ev even if you look at this score , we did quite well . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: oh . oh . yeah . marketing: with an lcd screen . project manager: it just looking for improvements what what you could have improved . so . industrial designer: but if pep people really want speech recognition , then they must be prepared to pu to pay more , because it 's can not be done for this . project manager: they sh they should get kids , and just stick 'em in tv and say change the channel . marketing: yeah , user interface: marketing: you can make 'em another one . industrial designer: hmm yeah . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: ah but for this price uh you can not ask that . project manager: i don ' think so . uh it 's just not it it 's not affordable . industrial designer: you can not th think of that project manager: or your sh you should lose the lcd screen probably , industrial designer: no , it 's not . project manager: but i think that 's i think the lcd screen is more worth than speech recognition . industrial designer: mm-hmm . oh it 's also more attractive . project manager: definitely . okay , that was that . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: so that 's the final product without the speakers , i guess . user interface: so did you project manager: let 's see , what was left in the the another one . hmm . yeah , marketing: project manager: we evaluate the product . general project , what 's i in for example , i thou i thought we were pretty creative in what we created . we took the whole new approach of making exchangeable cover for example , which i thought was pretty creative , because it was never never ever listed somewhere . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: favourite channel . project manager: well anyways . yeah , leadership is up to you . i mean perhaps i screwed up because i d put a put a speech recognition into it . but that 's not for me to decide . marketing: yeah , i know . yeah . project manager: i think we did pretty well as team-work though . because , yeah was very hard to work with one another if you can not communicate in the meantime , industrial designer: yes . hmm . project manager: because when i got the when i got the input for the financial results , initially of course i wanted to contact you . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah , you 're working separate . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: say , look , this is you 're doing the wrong thing , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: huh . project manager: you 're s you 're wasting your time now , because we 're implementing stuff that we can not afford . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah , yeah yeah . project manager: so it would be better if y if there was more communication between uh industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah yeah yeah . direct uh communication with yeah . project manager: because that 's that 's what would w you what you would normally do , either call or email someone . user interface: and we could share information which we received . project manager: so that was too bad industrial designer: hmm . project manager: con was impossible here anyways . . industrial designer: that 's the same thing that i had in the beginning . everybody was using materials that s i did n't have . project manager: it did n't have industrial designer: so project manager: or did n't knew what they costs or whatever . marketing: yeah . project manager: there was just too little information about what things actually cost and if you could use them . industrial designer: oh . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so that was a little unclear i suppose . i think a smartboard smartboard is pretty cool . i think uh s especially for design issues , it 's very easy just to give your give your thoughts a little it 's easier to share them . marketing: my handwriting is little bit yeah . yeah . user interface: although for actual design i 'd say the response time should be a little bit higher , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: it 's a little less it the response time is le it 's very bad . user interface: because industrial designer: hmm . project manager: it 's good to visualise everything , but i think the response time should could be a lot better . user interface: the digital pen was definitely better to draw my ideas and to further elaborate on that . marketing: but th that 's project manager: definitely . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , it 's true . marketing: yeah , okay . user interface: so industrial designer: but there 's uh also one problem with this i noticed . uh you have to finish a page before going to a n project manager: no , you do n't have to . no , you do n't . marketing: no . project manager: i jin i did n't check the finish button . industrial designer: oh . marketing: you can project manager: i just you just ditch it and you can copy it or whatever . marketing: done and then it 's okay . industrial designer: okay , i saw that uh project manager: uh only if you uh check the notes or press done . then it um then you can then it exports to word automatically . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: but it 's not necessary to check either one of those two . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: you can just preview your p you can just preview your page in the in the programme . industrial designer: but i made marketing: oh , okay . industrial designer: okay , but i made three pages marketing: okay , yeah . industrial designer: and they were not finished . and when the third one was finished , i wanted to download it and then it was not possible anymore , because you have to close all the pinnits uh the pages before going further . project manager: okay , before starting a ne a new page . marketing: okay . project manager: okay , that could be b . industrial designer: exactly . so we can not work on more than one page at same time . that 's not possible . marketing: oh . project manager: okay . industrial designer: you have to finish it completely , marketing: hmm . user interface: oh can you ? okay . industrial designer: then download it , it 's then start a new one . project manager: yeah , okay . industrial designer: that 's not very uh handy , project manager: that 's industrial designer: but if you know that , then it 's not a problem . project manager: yeah , it 's understandable , okay . any new ideas ? yeah , more communication between between uh that 's the thing i noticed , that communication is very um very important , industrial designer: marketing: important to mm project manager: because if you get new information , it 's essential f for the other team-mates to know that as soon as possible , because you would avoid making doing extra work , because you were doing extra work now uh m working on the on the speech recognition , you have limitation both on the technical on the d on the design side . marketing: yeah . project manager: so i think that could have been better . but that 's i think it 's more of a a setting here that you can not communicate than uh than somewhere else . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so user interface: yeah , well it could also possibly be well , is it a more real-time information base , so we can all see which information is available to one another . project manager: yeah , i think so . and l less p less spam probably . i 'm not sure i i 'm not sure you got spammed as well , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: but i get spammed like every t every two minutes there was a there was another email about master classes or something . industrial designer: ah . well project manager: so industrial designer: hmm . project manager: which were totally useless actually . i thought i should probably look into them , but they were all useless . so i just user interface: well , i personally did not have that , marketing: mm project manager: oh okay . user interface: but that 's probably your l description . project manager: user interface: but i also did n't not really . but still , you had that as well . is that we finished up the design industrial designer: huh . user interface: and then we checked the website , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then there was just extra information . marketing: yeah , after after five minutes , uh industrial designer: . user interface: there was a little delay in the bit of a c crucial delay . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: yeah . project manager: i did n't have any uh more information , it 's just always the same here . so that 's that 's kind of a industrial designer: mm . marketing: email uh project manager: it would change , but not for me . so i 'd i had no extra information to go on that one than what you give me actually . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: i could n't do any research myself industrial designer: hmm . project manager: or i see , that 's industrial designer: hmm . project manager: yeah , w i could have done a little extra work probably , then marketing: it 's project manager: but i was busy enough anyway . so industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah . project manager: any new ideas found ? or is that a 'cause uh yeah , it 's well , industrial designer: no . project manager: probably is . user interface: how much time do we have for this anyway ? project manager: i have no clue . that 's like oh , but it should i industrial designer: . project manager: if the project is evaluated and it was it was in b within budget , we should celebrate . so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay , marketing: industrial designer: bring out the beer . user interface: champagne . project manager: uh okay , think that 's about it . uh marketing: i want one for my own . project manager: i 'm not sure what we should still do though uh t let 's see what all your tasks were finished , right ? what you ha from your assistant . so let 's marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i have no more email . my coach is uh being very silent now . project manager: okay , marketing: yeah , project manager: i should i think i sh marketing: my personal coach i project manager: i still have the the total report to finish up . i think we took very little time now , because yeah , we 're in agreement , everything the design is okay . the one thing we missed though , we do n't have a product name . marketing: what industrial designer: no , project manager: how about you cook a how about you cook up a product name ? user interface: product name . industrial designer: we have n't think above about that . marketing: yeah , name . industrial designer: huh . it 's better than thi i think than a serial number . sony uh t_r_ something uh f means nothing to me . uh project manager: just marketing: or fruit name . project manager: oh , think of a catchy name . i 'll be working on this until the beep until it beeps . so industrial designer: like fruit names . marketing: fruit name or something like that . project manager: what ? fruit ? marketing: the banana remote or something . project manager: you do n't want it to resemble a banana . marketing: i do n't know . yeah , it 's the form of it . project manager: it 's not yellow anyway . user interface: the bana 'cause it 's not yellow anymore . project manager: it 's not yellow anymore . marketing: yeah oh , yeah . project manager: it is curved , but marketing: uh yeah . uh user interface: well , uh i was going for the r_c_ deluxe , but it 's not really a catchy name or anything , project manager: no , user interface: it 's more project manager: it 's industrial designer: uh at least it 's not something with numbers . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: numbers are so meaningless to the people . i mean marketing: yeah . user interface: something with our company name , marketing: that 's true . user interface: can we do anything with that ? industrial designer: . user interface: maybe there 's something on the website which will help us out . marketing: reaction , real reaction . project manager: industrial designer: real reaction . user interface: the reaction deluxe . project manager: real reaction future r_c_ . step into the future of of remote controlling your tv . user interface: is that a name or a c campaign ? marketing: project manager: no that 's a that 's a catchy slogan . user interface: yeah . project manager: control your remote control . user interface: or the the real reactor . industrial designer: real react . project manager: i go for future r_c_ probably . something like it 's short f industrial designer: the real reactor , i do n't find that uh that bad at all . marketing: . project manager: real reactor ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh that that 's user interface: you should write it down as a an option . industrial designer: because our name is real reaction . project manager: that makes me think of different products than a remote control really . marketing: . user interface: project manager: i 'm not sure . real reaction in a real marketing: zapping . the user interface: so that 's one option . project manager: real reactor . did n't notice . industrial designer: i 'm looking for things in the name . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so that the first three letters are s the same . r_e_a_ r_e_a_ . user interface: should i write the banana down or project manager: i take f marketing: yeah , sure . project manager: yeah , take a banana . user interface: sure ? marketing: the banana . project manager: hmm . marketing: remote . banana recei r_c_ . industrial designer: the triple r_ . real reaction remotes control . triple r_ . marketing: remote . user interface: well i marketing: r_ three c_ . user interface: uh do you mean it like industrial designer: ? marketing: r_ three c_ . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: you mean it like this ? industrial designer: yeah , that marketing: real reaction remote control . r_ three c_ . oh yeah . industrial designer: . . project manager: no , not like that . it should be it should be longer , because it 's not a product name that you f print on a box . industrial designer: i think triple r_ . project manager: just write out triple , like a word triple r_c_ , triple stripe oh . triple dash r_ dash s s c_ . industrial designer: does n't sound ? marketing: yeah , triple r_ . industrial designer: yeah . ah . marketing: triple r_c_ . the triple r_c_ , yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: r_ s r_ three c_ . . project manager: r_ dash c_ . user interface: dash c_ ? industrial designer: i think i like it like this more . project manager: dash . triple r_ or triple r_c_ ? user interface: like a c_ right now or a dash in a c_ ? marketing: triple r_ dash . project manager: how about do both ? user interface: project manager: sure if it looks stupid . uh i think that the the r_c_ together takes away the the the image of it 's a triple industrial designer: hmm . project manager: uh the first the first one looks like it 's a triple remote control , industrial designer: mm . marketing: that project manager: but it 's only a single remote control . and it 's especially on the triple r_ that 's important . the real reaction remote . industrial designer: i would huh . i would lose the c_ marketing: yeah , this yeah . industrial designer: and just name it triple r_ . user interface: is it triple r_c_s ? no . project manager: industrial designer: it sounds like uh thinking about two different things and combining it . marketing: triple remote . industrial designer: i would just say triple r_s triple r_ marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , triple r_ yeah , you can user interface: well , that 's another option . industrial designer: that 's also short , catchy . marketing: it 's okay . project manager: yeah , triple r_ . user interface: okay , so which ones are we going to scratch definitely ? marketing: the banana . banana . project manager: banana remote . industrial designer: banana . user interface: i say this one as well . marketing: yeah , the deluxe . project manager: i think we 're all in agreement about the triple r_ . industrial designer: . project manager: i think triple r_ is cool . industrial designer: yes . user interface: triple r_ ? marketing: the r triple r_ . project manager: and it looks cool when you print it in font , looks pretty cool . user interface: triple r_ it is . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: did you do now ? project manager: just like this just and you just print triple r_ , it looks does n't look bad , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 's short , it 's okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so have to write my report now , i guess . um um yeah , so we have everything . we have the product , we have the costs , industrial designer: yep . project manager: we have the possibility of everything . marketing: it ca n't work . that will not project manager: okay . i think it 's adjourned . retire to my lair and finish the report . that was a short meeting . but efficient though . industrial designer: mm-hmm . the boss is always the last one to go home . so project manager: probably . see . okay , user interface: project manager: goodbye . marketing: okay . industrial designer: see you in a minute . marketing: damn . i will write that one in a word uh document . industrial designer: okay . project manager: could you guys draw me a picture of the final design to put on the cover of the report ? user interface: yeah , sure . marketing: industrial designer: ca n't we take this one ? marketing: oh sh industrial designer: otherwise we have to do it all over again . marketing: um user interface: i do n't really know whether we can save it as a picture or no . industrial designer: is it okay if i try ? is that okay with you ? user interface: sure . marketing: yeah , okay , i will ask you when uh i need the information . industrial designer: i 'll put it back in a minute . marketing: so it 's oh . industrial designer: okay , it has been saving something , but where to i do n't know . marketing: uh oh . merge . industrial designer: oh , can i say exp yes , i can . marketing: sucks . industrial designer: export as j_ peg . . okay , can i not put this wherever i wants . my document is the wrong one , huh . marketing: yeah , but user interface: network places . marketing: i do n't know . smart no . industrial designer: . marketing: ma it 's maybe it 's not on the network of uh the rest . user interface: industrial designer: i do n't think so . marketing: that one is . . user interface: i would n't pick that one , no . industrial designer: document and settings . marketing: industrial designer: that 's a pity . that means that we have to gon na draw it again . are you gon na do that ? user interface: sure . industrial designer: okay . user interface: oh . industrial designer: that yes . okay . okay . okay . yes , that 's correct . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: no . oh , it 's export . marketing: oh yeah , . industrial designer: okay . marketing: can i see scores ? industrial designer: oh , of course . marketing: uh , one one , two threes , two industrial designer: sorry . marketing: okay , then we 'll overall , two points . yes . user interface: i see you later . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: mm .

project manager thought speech recognition was the first option to be scrapped . project manager made this decision according to the feedback from customers . around ninety percent of people preferred an lcd display , while only sixty percent of people wanted speech recognition .

summarize the decision of removing the curve when discussing abandonment of certain features . </s> project manager: can i close this ? user interface: uh we do n't have any changes , do we ? project manager: oh , okay . user interface: so no . project manager: there we go . okay , here we are again . detailed design oh , come on . well ah s forgot to insert the minutes , but it 's about the same thing we discussed before . uh could open that anyway , think . other design anyway , we took as we took w we took rubber as as the material last time . we also that you 're just busy with it . took the advanced chip to t uh implement the advanced features . well , we discussed the design , no sharp corners , we rounded it off , like you see on the other screen , which is fine . um we agreed that the colour should be b uh yellow and black . yellow in the back because it 's m trendy , more trendy than black anyway . so then we ca yeah . we agreed that we would implement both the lcd and speech recognition , but i 'll get to that in a moment . 'cause some changes in the finances have left us implications anyway . so so , like i said , we had no insight in finances , no prices , marketing: hmm . project manager: but we have 'em now , and it 's bad . anyway . we are oh . prototype presentation , well first you guys built the prototype . so you could could present that . but um let 's see what be handy to do . nee no , you just go ahead and present the w we 'll scrap it later because what ? industrial designer: i think it 's more or less the same as we had . user interface: it 's basically what we agreed upon , marketing: hmm ? project manager: oh that 's user interface: but just a little bit more specified . industrial designer: no much s project manager: has n't changed that much , huh ? industrial designer: no no no , not at all . project manager: i did n't expect anyway . you just coloured it . user interface: uh s final design . basically in what we discussed , cover and buttons will be made of rubber , yellow colour , black components , as you can see right over here . project manager: mm-hmm . i like the menu . user interface: we chose a different type of colour for the menu . a bit darker yellow so that it com really shows in this keypad . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: if you put them all black , it 's not really that good a contrast . project manager: and i suppose the the the yellow is not printed on the on the rubber . it 's it 's part of the rubber , i suppose . user interface: so probab project manager: i think that 's more i think that 's more durable anyway than printed on to user interface: yeah . that 's the be industrial designer: hmm . user interface: and it i guess it 's more easier to just paint it on the rubber industrial designer: yeah , of course . user interface: than to uh industrial designer: that 's uh the integration story again . marketing: mm yeah . okay . user interface: so we have it 's a bit round shaped , project manager: oh yeah . user interface: that 's what we had uh we chose the buttons to be uh teletext , okay button , favourite channel and the mute . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so that 's basically what we chose there . project manager: okay . user interface: if you have anything to add , please interrupt me . industrial designer: no , uh this is just a description of what we see there . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so user interface: oh . industrial designer: speaks for itself . marketing: yeah . user interface: that 's pretty much it . project manager: okay . now it 's my time to ruin everything . well , not ruin everything , but no , nah . user interface: oh sorry . project manager: finances , that 's what we have here , what you drew . we have battery power , we have advanced chips and the sam the sensor . the sample sensor and uh for speak recognition anyway . so which you see the which is de o one of the most expensive parts . so well , we have sin one curve , a design . rubber design . and we had a special colour . suppose yellow is a special colour . so just half a euro for you have pushbuttons and an lcd display . you have the total of seventeen euros in production cost , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: which is higher than the twelve and a half that we are permitted to use . so , marketing: hmm . project manager: easy . what do we scrap . well think i had the best solution that i came up with is just to s take out the speech recognition . industrial designer: i d user interface: i 'd say that too . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: because the lcd has more support on customer side . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: there are ninety one percent of uh the people , or something like that . but ninety percent who favour an lcd display , and only sixty percent that favour speech recognition . i think it 's also harder to user interface: uh we do n't really have a extra function with the speech sample , marketing: yeah . user interface: which you ca n't do with a normal remote control , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: . so i ju user interface: which people already do . so project manager: i took that out . so and so it 's still stuck with thirteen , so i had to take out the special colour i suppose . and , yeah , i did n't see anything else i could take out . yeah , i could take out the push-buttons , marketing: pushbut project manager: but we need those . so , generally what i came up with , in order to be cou to to have production cost of twelve and a half euros , spe scrap speech recognition industrial designer: huh . marketing: special colour , yeah . project manager: and the separate covers can account for the if people want it , we 'll just then we 'll do it in black . we 'll just deliver it in black , have the it has all the function that it 's supposed to have , and if you want it if you want the custom design , then you can buy the separate covers . user interface: well , project manager: you make it d orange or whatever you want . user interface: i 'd i tend to disagree with you on that , because the trend issue was a big issue when we started designing this . project manager: it was a big issue , but user interface: so ca n't we just basically extend it to thirteen ? project manager: i 'll just go back . uh let 's just let 's see what okay , let 's just see what we no , we we have to be under twelve and a half . marketing: yeah , it project manager: it it 's not marketing: the p project manager: uh the project is a no-go if we go over twelve and a half , industrial designer: okay , but there 's another problem . marketing: and the p project manager: so . user interface: okay . industrial designer: but there 's another problem . marketing: what industrial designer: if we take another cover , for instance black , then we also need another button frame , 'cause black and black does n't work obviously . project manager: i think you that 's what you were ass assigned to do really , to to see how b th both those work together . industrial designer: huh . huh . yeah . project manager: so i think yeah , it 's i think it 's y one of the it 's a good way to um to help people uh to make to keep the product trendy too . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: just keep you just make new covers for the for it , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: like we agreed before . industrial designer: right . i agree . project manager: and everything that 's left is is the basic function that uh that we want our product to have . because the expensive parts are in either the advanced chip . but we need that for the lcd display . user interface: yeah . we do . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: then again , we have the lcd display , which is also expensive . b yeah , but those go together . and yeah , we could take out the curve . industrial designer: or say let 's lose rubber , take plastic . user interface: we could take out a curve indeed . project manager: could we could take out the curve . is that an option ? industrial designer: yes . marketing: . project manager: for you ? industrial designer: although we are demolishing a little bit the style . marketing: but uh the and user interface: i think the colour is more important than the really the curve , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but project manager: user interface: because if you just end up with an entirely black remote control project manager: i think it 's it it does ruin it , marketing: yeah . the people project manager: but the fact that i t took that decision or t industrial designer: yeah . project manager: took this example actually , not really decision , but the example is because we do offer the um the possibility of adding your own custom covers . so you can change any colour you want . so it 's just you deliver a basic remote control with a possibility to change you into whatever you want . industrial designer: can we then not also uh change the material ? we take plastic for the basic cover project manager: you can take plastic , industrial designer: and project manager: but i d it 's something that 's stuck into my mind is that something that really came forward from the marketing research is that people like the the the the squishy feeling of the spongy feeling of the marketing: spongy , yeah . industrial designer: we can put those to the to the other covers . project manager: and it really makes it also makes it different from the existing remote controls , marketing: yeah . project manager: because they 're all plastic . marketing: and project manager: so which in in turn industrial designer: that 's true . project manager: rubber would increase durability industrial designer: but project manager: because it does n't break . industrial designer: okay . but what do you then suggest we 'd lose ? because we have to lose two things and i guess . project manager: i al like i said , i lost the speech recognition and i lost the special colour , marketing: but industrial designer: yes . project manager: which would make this black a black and grey . industrial designer: okay , and that 's enough ? project manager: yeah , that 's that that that 's enough , because user interface: so black and grey is okay . project manager: i guess those are the basic colours . marketing: but project manager: so oh . user interface: which we can fabricate , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: i think those are basic col they want to user interface: okay . marketing: the people want to pay for for it , so why why uh do we have to keep us uh uh um on the twelve and a half ? project manager: to ensure the profit . that that 's th that 's the order . we 're just uh we 're the project team and we got our our orders from the pro from the boss of our company marketing: yeah . project manager: which say we do n't wan na spend more than twelve fifty for this . marketing: but we can take a risk . project manager: but that 's not for our that 's not our decision to take . we have a budget of twelve fifty per product . user interface: no , we basically marketing: okay , yeah . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so user interface: we need to stick to that . project manager: stick that . i do n't think it 's really bad either . i mean if we we have the the backup of or the backup design thing marketing: i hope the people will like it , project manager: to have marketing: but project manager: i think they would do . th i think they do like because yo we you we agree upon that the that the the the cover thing was a nice idea , marketing: project manager: because p you could have all sort of designs while at the same time just manufacturing one product , one basic product which you could turn into any any taste you want . marketing: yeah . project manager: so i think it 's the best solution to make those cu custom covers for the design aspect industrial designer: perhaps we should make m marketing: yeah . project manager: and keep the functionality between of within the th the boundaries of the your f uh your budget . industrial designer: huh . marketing: the first sheet . project manager: so industrial designer: perhaps we should make clear to our customer that we had to do this to stay under the cost . and that 's uh they know that this is an option and that we had to drop the option to stay under the cost , that they know that . project manager: well i do n't think yeah . is it worth is it is it industrial designer: perhaps they decide tha user interface: but they do n't project manager: does it mean anything to the customer ? like , it like , we do n't care we do n't care that you had to industrial designer: of course . perhaps they uh no , but perhaps they think uh okay , the cover is such a nice idea , uh let 's that that then they uh that allow us to make some more costs . project manager: true , industrial designer: we ca we uh we can at least tell them that project manager: but we did we did n't get that . so i think it 's industrial designer: you do n't know that . project manager: it should either be a pack , maybe we sh that should be sold in in the s in stores with with a standard cover or something . user interface: well industrial designer: huh . project manager: but industrial designer: no , i 'm not uh talking about that cost but the one that g has given us the order to design this . we could at least m uh make it like this , like you said , project manager: they could , but uh industrial designer: and then tell them okay , we had to drop this and that , just that you know . it is an still an option , but not for this price . project manager: it 's an option , but yeah , it 's true . so actually uh it 's not that much of an increase , but yeah . we can not contact them . user interface: and if we project manager: it 's just the order that we got . industrial designer: exactly , project manager: so that 's what we got ta go with . industrial designer: but marketing: yeah . project manager: so it 's either one fi just just to get it f just to get it through final , it 's either turned into plastic , drop the squishy feel , make it make it more breakable , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um or turn it yellow . so it 's uh something we have to decide on . industrial designer: i 'd say lose the curve and the colour project manager: i say lose the curve . oh that 's true , industrial designer: and project manager: we could lose the c i forgot that , yeah , sorry . uh the curve . so user interface: so which curve is that ba project manager: that 's just this one just d this is the banana curve . user interface: that 's basically that curve . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so this would this would be straight . user interface: so we could u still have the comfort . marketing: yeah , that 's better . project manager: no , uh no , that would be a curve inside the thing , i guess . no , would ju then it would just be a straight remote . just like like that . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: which would , yeah , turn it into something far more ordinary . we could make it yellow then , user interface: i second that . project manager: but you second that , you second that we lose the curve . user interface: no , that it would turn out to be a pretty straight-forward remote control . project manager: okay , yeah . user interface: so that 's not really that marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: so i think it would be a good idea to keep the curve to separate it from the rest of the remote control world , so to speak . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so we keep the curve . so the only only solution is either to use the l y lose the yellow or lose the rubber . user interface: i would project manager: and i 'm in favour of keeping the rubber , because it has more more advantages than the colour yellow has . industrial designer: oh . i agree . user interface: yeah . i would say i would agree with you on the colour , industrial designer: no . marketing: yep . user interface: because that 's an extra option , an extra service we can deliver for a little bit of more money . project manager: mm-hmm . yeah , um user interface: so we can always do that . project manager: i guess people are willing to pay for that . so i think we can take that option and just with uh with the idea in the back of our head that you can customise your remote control . industrial designer: hmm ? marketing: yeah . project manager: so i think that would still make it a nice product . industrial designer: yes . project manager: okay , we 're final on that . so it 's too bad we ca n't make the whole super thing . but anyways we 're here . um yeah . user interface: which is basically what we discussed . project manager: this we discussed just now . that 's just now just we could just discuss how the project went . i mean , was kind of marketing: and i want to do that . project manager: i sort of expected that everything would turn out this way , but because you yeah , everything can not be for free . we did n't i think it was too bad we did n't have the financial info the last time . because that was i th user interface: yes , industrial designer: huh . project manager: it was really essential really user interface: we could have project manager: to ma because we spent uh uh entire stage designing a product of which we had no idea what it would cost . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so we just put something marketing: yeah . project manager: i think it 's really nor not in stroke with reality actually . marketing: project manager: so industrial designer: me too , i felt a bit blind throughout the project , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: because in the beginning i had no list of available materials , project manager: yeah , i think would have been . marketing: yeah . project manager: materials would be ok industrial designer: and then i d had not list of available c finances . marketing: but project manager: at least the last meeting i would have expected had to have that . industrial designer: so project manager: so i suppose marketing: let 's um see um project manager: yeah , let 's see if it sells . i mean i suppose this sells , because it 's very very extended . marketing: um project manager: but user interface: well i hope it sells . marketing: let 's uh project manager: i suppose it sells , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: because it 's good . marketing: oh . project manager: i mean it 's got everything for the for the reasonable price , because we did n't know what it 's gon na cost anyway . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: marketing: hmm . okay , let 's eval evaluate uh the product of us , our design . um i have some uh a method , a requirements and scale of . i uh will pre present uh some statements and we will decided together wha what if it 's true or false project manager: okay . marketing: and uh then we see uh if the requirements of the user are fulfilled or not . project manager: have been met , okay . marketing: and i will uh make a new blank sheet project manager: yeah . marketing: so so the buttons , the look and feel . i thought it was okay , but the advanced uh settings , um screen , audio and channel project manager: they 're stuck under menu . user interface: which are basically accessible through the menu button . marketing: we are not project manager: for the menu . i think those are totally met , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: because we we really took them for the they have the feel they want , marketing: oh the menu button is it . user interface: yeah . marketing: hi oh , okay . project manager: they have the simplicity they want . marketing: then it 's all uh s project manager: i think it 's very uh very well met . either two or one maybe . industrial designer: one . marketing: it 's true . project manager: i think we took that everything they wanted into consideration . marketing: yeah . project manager: so it could either be a two or a one . marketing: so d oh wait . uh pen . project manager: one and a half . user interface: which is not an option . marketing: the p oh yeah , project manager: just create our own option . marketing: it 's red , okay , but look and feel is everybo it 's true . project manager: yeah . marketing: so anyone ? and the next one uh yeah , when it 's lost uh you can find it . project manager: it 's perfect . even for deaf people , yeah . marketing: it 's project manager: it 's i do n't think it 's perfect , but we did everything possible to to get it back . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: to make it that way , yeah . project manager: because if it 's stuck in you couch , you can see the light . maybe you can hear it . but i mean we tried , marketing: yeah . project manager: so i think it that 's that deserves a one . definitely . marketing: and it 's and it 's yeah . to . that 's okay then . and the next one . how is that ? uh w we had we do n't have an uh manual , industrial designer: manual . project manager: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think the lcd display could be a little bit more difficult then a normal remote control , marketing: but i think that 's a part of it . but project manager: i 'd use an remote control . user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: but then again , it 's for young people . so marketing: yeah , an lcd , it tells a lot about uh user interface: and it 's pretty straight-forward , industrial designer: yeah , i th project manager: it 's pretty straight-forward , uh-huh . user interface: you have a navigation no keys to navigate through the lcd menus . industrial designer: exactly . no , that 's true . i think it wo n't be a big problem . marketing: yeah . user interface: so marketing: so it 's a one user interface: one i d no , marketing: or a i do n't know . user interface: actu project manager: i think but we did n't even marketing: for the advanced uh settings . project manager: there was no issue on making a manual actually . we did n't really discuss it , marketing: no okay , that uh that 's true . project manager: but i do n't think it takes no , it really does does n't take time to learn , i think . we took it s it 's so easy , user interface: no , it it is pretty straight-forward . marketing: oh , so it project manager: we have so little button , everything speaks for itself really . so i think that 's industrial designer: ah . um project manager: yeah , we did n't it 's either two or one , i guess . marketing: takes no ti project manager: maybe it 's a two , because d uh the lcd is a little is a little new and there is there are some option hidden under the menu button . industrial designer: with the more important functions on . marketing: yeah . project manager: so i might make this a two instead of a one , i guess . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: and the lcd , you have to see it . project manager: so just make that a two . marketing: um mm oh , it 's a little bit learning . okay . uh yeah it 's uh a little bit same . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: but it tells you or not ? project manager: you can use the lcd in a good way . i think so . i think it 's perfect , the w where it is , what it can do , if it useful . i think so . marketing: but wha w industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: oh , yeah . what are we uh displaying on the lcd screen ? just uh only the channels and or industrial designer: the menus uh things like brightness and uh those kind of things we 've put in the menu , marketing: what uh ? industrial designer: because we have no buttons for those . user interface: well , basically the menu options indeed . but marketing: oh , in the lcd screen . project manager: no , y i mean in the lcd screen , the small screen . what does it display ? industrial designer: yes . marketing: and for a channel selection , uh or that 's not project manager: well i thought it was i thought it was i thought that people wanted previews on their i 'm not sure if that even possible , marketing: yeah , i thought i thought too project manager: but marketing: but project manager: 'cause it 's this requires a quite quite a bit of band-width . marketing: yeah . project manager: i do n't think it 's possible really . but the they did n't really define in what should be used for . user interface: no . marketing: maybe a tv guide or something in your lcd uh project manager: but i think in for example like tv guides , i think that 's that th that you can transmit through it and everything . just for extra information on your programmes . industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah . yeah , it must be clear then what what what for we use it . project manager: but also things like like like menus or p how about preferences of your uh with configuring your remote control for favourite your favourite channel for example , how do you configure that . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so that could be done by lcd display . i think it 's good . no , maybe it 's not a one because it 's we 're not using it perfectly . we did n't give it i do n't thing over-discussing . now we gave it enough thought though . i think we d should just lower this . marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe maybe it 's a three though . we could 've used it more effectively probably . marketing: yeah , indeed . project manager: marketing: so everybody 's agree with an uh three on it , project manager: yeah , we are using it , user interface: yeah . two or three . industrial designer: yes . marketing: it 's project manager: but it 's not marketing: w project manager: it 's not poorly used , but it 's not efficiently used , i think . user interface: so marketing: yeah . project manager: we could have ev even lost the selection button and uh done everything via lcd selection . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's now it 's just extra to illustrate im uh extra features , marketing: yeah , i project manager: but okay . marketing: a three . industrial designer: nah , it 's not really only an extra . user interface: you can seven . industrial designer: no menus . marketing: ah , nothing , that 's a seven . uh that 's uh industrial designer: think about project manager: can you talk to remote control ? user interface: or we could say it project manager: well , it ca n't talk anymore . so we scrap that . marketing: yeah . user interface: or we could say neutral , project manager: oh yeah user interface: we 'cause we scratched the project manager: just to be a prick , user interface: c project manager: but of course you can talk to your remote control , it does n't do anything . marketing: yeah yeah yeah yeah . project manager: but you c you can talk to it . marketing: not with the speech recognition . uh yeah , all the trends and no colours uh anymore . so project manager: well , we did take everything into consideration of course . uh the shape i shape is i marketing: yeah , uh um only in the curves . project manager: i think we yeah , i think that 's okay . marketing: but the colours , we do n't have special colours on it . user interface: no , we do n't have the colour . project manager: yeah , special co but we took into consideration the fact that it 's customisable user interface: so i marketing: yeah , project manager: to the fashi marketing: but we user interface: yes , but the end product so industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah , we do n't have it , so d project manager: we do n't have it we do have it , marketing: in the end product . project manager: it 's just sold as a package . industrial designer: but m project manager: it does it 's not part of the basic product . industrial designer: changing covers is also trend that we followed . project manager: it that that 's what i call trendy . i mean the shape is trendy . user interface: project manager: the the sh the the functions are trendy . it 's just the colours that are not supporting the basic model . because you ha marketing: now project manager: it 's just not affordable at the moment . user interface: maybe we should go with a two then , marketing: but it 's not a one . user interface: because it 's not perfect , because we ca n't do it initially , marketing: yeah . user interface: but we project manager: it 's possible , industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: oh . project manager: but you have to pay extra for the for the possibility of having it in a f a different colour . marketing: oh well oops . project manager: marketing: oh it 's a two , user interface: yeah . marketing: right ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: on the last one . uh that n that 's all . project manager: overall score . user interface: overall score . marketing: overall . it 's um project manager: one two three . sixteen . marketing: ten , sixteen three uh two project manager: two two point some two point something . marketing: two point seven or something like that . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: i do n't know why . user interface: ten , sixteen , divided by project manager: . industrial designer: six . marketing: six . user interface: is two two third . project manager: two and two thirds . marketing: um so project manager: marketing: we can say it 's it 's the product is it 's okay . project manager: it 's okay , but that 's yo m marketing: y not industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: mostly it 's it 's influenced by the fact that we did n't have enough resources to implement speech recognition . user interface: there 's industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause yeah , that gives you a seven , which ruins your your average . marketing: yeah . project manager: without that it would be like under it would n't yeah , it would be under two . so i think we have even with this it 's reasonable . marketing: woah . user interface: yeah , if we make it into a four , as in neutral , because we did n't implement it , so we ca n't say that we that it 's really not well implemented . we come out on a average of two one eighth . marketing: yeah . project manager: well i think it 's two is okay . user interface: so which is pretty w good . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , two is pretty good . user interface: it 's at least on the positive side . project manager: definitely . user interface: so we could definitely have done better if we 've had more resources , industrial designer: hmm , of course . marketing: yeah . user interface: but project manager: yeah , i think it 's probably i industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . project manager: i do admit that we d did miss a little or did n't sp did n't talk talk enough about the possibility of the lcd display . we could have used it more efficiently , marketing: yeah . project manager: we just did n't think of it that way . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , with . .. # user interface: true . project manager: so like i said , changing channels , everything hidden in your lcd display , so you just need the navigation buttons to do everything . marketing: the scale . industrial designer: but i think for this price , this is it 's really a reasonable product . project manager: i think we div i think we did very well , industrial designer: it 's a good product . project manager: uh ev even if you look at this score , we did quite well . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: oh . oh . yeah . marketing: with an lcd screen . project manager: it just looking for improvements what what you could have improved . so . industrial designer: but if pep people really want speech recognition , then they must be prepared to pu to pay more , because it 's can not be done for this . project manager: they sh they should get kids , and just stick 'em in tv and say change the channel . marketing: yeah , user interface: marketing: you can make 'em another one . industrial designer: hmm yeah . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: ah but for this price uh you can not ask that . project manager: i don ' think so . uh it 's just not it it 's not affordable . industrial designer: you can not th think of that project manager: or your sh you should lose the lcd screen probably , industrial designer: no , it 's not . project manager: but i think that 's i think the lcd screen is more worth than speech recognition . industrial designer: mm-hmm . oh it 's also more attractive . project manager: definitely . okay , that was that . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: so that 's the final product without the speakers , i guess . user interface: so did you project manager: let 's see , what was left in the the another one . hmm . yeah , marketing: project manager: we evaluate the product . general project , what 's i in for example , i thou i thought we were pretty creative in what we created . we took the whole new approach of making exchangeable cover for example , which i thought was pretty creative , because it was never never ever listed somewhere . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: favourite channel . project manager: well anyways . yeah , leadership is up to you . i mean perhaps i screwed up because i d put a put a speech recognition into it . but that 's not for me to decide . marketing: yeah , i know . yeah . project manager: i think we did pretty well as team-work though . because , yeah was very hard to work with one another if you can not communicate in the meantime , industrial designer: yes . hmm . project manager: because when i got the when i got the input for the financial results , initially of course i wanted to contact you . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah , you 're working separate . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: say , look , this is you 're doing the wrong thing , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: huh . project manager: you 're s you 're wasting your time now , because we 're implementing stuff that we can not afford . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah , yeah yeah . project manager: so it would be better if y if there was more communication between uh industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah yeah yeah . direct uh communication with yeah . project manager: because that 's that 's what would w you what you would normally do , either call or email someone . user interface: and we could share information which we received . project manager: so that was too bad industrial designer: hmm . project manager: con was impossible here anyways . . industrial designer: that 's the same thing that i had in the beginning . everybody was using materials that s i did n't have . project manager: it did n't have industrial designer: so project manager: or did n't knew what they costs or whatever . marketing: yeah . project manager: there was just too little information about what things actually cost and if you could use them . industrial designer: oh . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so that was a little unclear i suppose . i think a smartboard smartboard is pretty cool . i think uh s especially for design issues , it 's very easy just to give your give your thoughts a little it 's easier to share them . marketing: my handwriting is little bit yeah . yeah . user interface: although for actual design i 'd say the response time should be a little bit higher , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: it 's a little less it the response time is le it 's very bad . user interface: because industrial designer: hmm . project manager: it 's good to visualise everything , but i think the response time should could be a lot better . user interface: the digital pen was definitely better to draw my ideas and to further elaborate on that . marketing: but th that 's project manager: definitely . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , it 's true . marketing: yeah , okay . user interface: so industrial designer: but there 's uh also one problem with this i noticed . uh you have to finish a page before going to a n project manager: no , you do n't have to . no , you do n't . marketing: no . project manager: i jin i did n't check the finish button . industrial designer: oh . marketing: you can project manager: i just you just ditch it and you can copy it or whatever . marketing: done and then it 's okay . industrial designer: okay , i saw that uh project manager: uh only if you uh check the notes or press done . then it um then you can then it exports to word automatically . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: but it 's not necessary to check either one of those two . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: you can just preview your p you can just preview your page in the in the programme . industrial designer: but i made marketing: oh , okay . industrial designer: okay , but i made three pages marketing: okay , yeah . industrial designer: and they were not finished . and when the third one was finished , i wanted to download it and then it was not possible anymore , because you have to close all the pinnits uh the pages before going further . project manager: okay , before starting a ne a new page . marketing: okay . project manager: okay , that could be b . industrial designer: exactly . so we can not work on more than one page at same time . that 's not possible . marketing: oh . project manager: okay . industrial designer: you have to finish it completely , marketing: hmm . user interface: oh can you ? okay . industrial designer: then download it , it 's then start a new one . project manager: yeah , okay . industrial designer: that 's not very uh handy , project manager: that 's industrial designer: but if you know that , then it 's not a problem . project manager: yeah , it 's understandable , okay . any new ideas ? yeah , more communication between between uh that 's the thing i noticed , that communication is very um very important , industrial designer: marketing: important to mm project manager: because if you get new information , it 's essential f for the other team-mates to know that as soon as possible , because you would avoid making doing extra work , because you were doing extra work now uh m working on the on the speech recognition , you have limitation both on the technical on the d on the design side . marketing: yeah . project manager: so i think that could have been better . but that 's i think it 's more of a a setting here that you can not communicate than uh than somewhere else . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so user interface: yeah , well it could also possibly be well , is it a more real-time information base , so we can all see which information is available to one another . project manager: yeah , i think so . and l less p less spam probably . i 'm not sure i i 'm not sure you got spammed as well , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: but i get spammed like every t every two minutes there was a there was another email about master classes or something . industrial designer: ah . well project manager: so industrial designer: hmm . project manager: which were totally useless actually . i thought i should probably look into them , but they were all useless . so i just user interface: well , i personally did not have that , marketing: mm project manager: oh okay . user interface: but that 's probably your l description . project manager: user interface: but i also did n't not really . but still , you had that as well . is that we finished up the design industrial designer: huh . user interface: and then we checked the website , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then there was just extra information . marketing: yeah , after after five minutes , uh industrial designer: . user interface: there was a little delay in the bit of a c crucial delay . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: yeah . project manager: i did n't have any uh more information , it 's just always the same here . so that 's that 's kind of a industrial designer: mm . marketing: email uh project manager: it would change , but not for me . so i 'd i had no extra information to go on that one than what you give me actually . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: i could n't do any research myself industrial designer: hmm . project manager: or i see , that 's industrial designer: hmm . project manager: yeah , w i could have done a little extra work probably , then marketing: it 's project manager: but i was busy enough anyway . so industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah . project manager: any new ideas found ? or is that a 'cause uh yeah , it 's well , industrial designer: no . project manager: probably is . user interface: how much time do we have for this anyway ? project manager: i have no clue . that 's like oh , but it should i industrial designer: . project manager: if the project is evaluated and it was it was in b within budget , we should celebrate . so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay , marketing: industrial designer: bring out the beer . user interface: champagne . project manager: uh okay , think that 's about it . uh marketing: i want one for my own . project manager: i 'm not sure what we should still do though uh t let 's see what all your tasks were finished , right ? what you ha from your assistant . so let 's marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i have no more email . my coach is uh being very silent now . project manager: okay , marketing: yeah , project manager: i should i think i sh marketing: my personal coach i project manager: i still have the the total report to finish up . i think we took very little time now , because yeah , we 're in agreement , everything the design is okay . the one thing we missed though , we do n't have a product name . marketing: what industrial designer: no , project manager: how about you cook a how about you cook up a product name ? user interface: product name . industrial designer: we have n't think above about that . marketing: yeah , name . industrial designer: huh . it 's better than thi i think than a serial number . sony uh t_r_ something uh f means nothing to me . uh project manager: just marketing: or fruit name . project manager: oh , think of a catchy name . i 'll be working on this until the beep until it beeps . so industrial designer: like fruit names . marketing: fruit name or something like that . project manager: what ? fruit ? marketing: the banana remote or something . project manager: you do n't want it to resemble a banana . marketing: i do n't know . yeah , it 's the form of it . project manager: it 's not yellow anyway . user interface: the bana 'cause it 's not yellow anymore . project manager: it 's not yellow anymore . marketing: yeah oh , yeah . project manager: it is curved , but marketing: uh yeah . uh user interface: well , uh i was going for the r_c_ deluxe , but it 's not really a catchy name or anything , project manager: no , user interface: it 's more project manager: it 's industrial designer: uh at least it 's not something with numbers . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: numbers are so meaningless to the people . i mean marketing: yeah . user interface: something with our company name , marketing: that 's true . user interface: can we do anything with that ? industrial designer: . user interface: maybe there 's something on the website which will help us out . marketing: reaction , real reaction . project manager: industrial designer: real reaction . user interface: the reaction deluxe . project manager: real reaction future r_c_ . step into the future of of remote controlling your tv . user interface: is that a name or a c campaign ? marketing: project manager: no that 's a that 's a catchy slogan . user interface: yeah . project manager: control your remote control . user interface: or the the real reactor . industrial designer: real react . project manager: i go for future r_c_ probably . something like it 's short f industrial designer: the real reactor , i do n't find that uh that bad at all . marketing: . project manager: real reactor ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh that that 's user interface: you should write it down as a an option . industrial designer: because our name is real reaction . project manager: that makes me think of different products than a remote control really . marketing: . user interface: project manager: i 'm not sure . real reaction in a real marketing: zapping . the user interface: so that 's one option . project manager: real reactor . did n't notice . industrial designer: i 'm looking for things in the name . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so that the first three letters are s the same . r_e_a_ r_e_a_ . user interface: should i write the banana down or project manager: i take f marketing: yeah , sure . project manager: yeah , take a banana . user interface: sure ? marketing: the banana . project manager: hmm . marketing: remote . banana recei r_c_ . industrial designer: the triple r_ . real reaction remotes control . triple r_ . marketing: remote . user interface: well i marketing: r_ three c_ . user interface: uh do you mean it like industrial designer: ? marketing: r_ three c_ . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: you mean it like this ? industrial designer: yeah , that marketing: real reaction remote control . r_ three c_ . oh yeah . industrial designer: . . project manager: no , not like that . it should be it should be longer , because it 's not a product name that you f print on a box . industrial designer: i think triple r_ . project manager: just write out triple , like a word triple r_c_ , triple stripe oh . triple dash r_ dash s s c_ . industrial designer: does n't sound ? marketing: yeah , triple r_ . industrial designer: yeah . ah . marketing: triple r_c_ . the triple r_c_ , yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: r_ s r_ three c_ . . project manager: r_ dash c_ . user interface: dash c_ ? industrial designer: i think i like it like this more . project manager: dash . triple r_ or triple r_c_ ? user interface: like a c_ right now or a dash in a c_ ? marketing: triple r_ dash . project manager: how about do both ? user interface: project manager: sure if it looks stupid . uh i think that the the r_c_ together takes away the the the image of it 's a triple industrial designer: hmm . project manager: uh the first the first one looks like it 's a triple remote control , industrial designer: mm . marketing: that project manager: but it 's only a single remote control . and it 's especially on the triple r_ that 's important . the real reaction remote . industrial designer: i would huh . i would lose the c_ marketing: yeah , this yeah . industrial designer: and just name it triple r_ . user interface: is it triple r_c_s ? no . project manager: industrial designer: it sounds like uh thinking about two different things and combining it . marketing: triple remote . industrial designer: i would just say triple r_s triple r_ marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , triple r_ yeah , you can user interface: well , that 's another option . industrial designer: that 's also short , catchy . marketing: it 's okay . project manager: yeah , triple r_ . user interface: okay , so which ones are we going to scratch definitely ? marketing: the banana . banana . project manager: banana remote . industrial designer: banana . user interface: i say this one as well . marketing: yeah , the deluxe . project manager: i think we 're all in agreement about the triple r_ . industrial designer: . project manager: i think triple r_ is cool . industrial designer: yes . user interface: triple r_ ? marketing: the r triple r_ . project manager: and it looks cool when you print it in font , looks pretty cool . user interface: triple r_ it is . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: did you do now ? project manager: just like this just and you just print triple r_ , it looks does n't look bad , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 's short , it 's okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so have to write my report now , i guess . um um yeah , so we have everything . we have the product , we have the costs , industrial designer: yep . project manager: we have the possibility of everything . marketing: it ca n't work . that will not project manager: okay . i think it 's adjourned . retire to my lair and finish the report . that was a short meeting . but efficient though . industrial designer: mm-hmm . the boss is always the last one to go home . so project manager: probably . see . okay , user interface: project manager: goodbye . marketing: okay . industrial designer: see you in a minute . marketing: damn . i will write that one in a word uh document . industrial designer: okay . project manager: could you guys draw me a picture of the final design to put on the cover of the report ? user interface: yeah , sure . marketing: industrial designer: ca n't we take this one ? marketing: oh sh industrial designer: otherwise we have to do it all over again . marketing: um user interface: i do n't really know whether we can save it as a picture or no . industrial designer: is it okay if i try ? is that okay with you ? user interface: sure . marketing: yeah , okay , i will ask you when uh i need the information . industrial designer: i 'll put it back in a minute . marketing: so it 's oh . industrial designer: okay , it has been saving something , but where to i do n't know . marketing: uh oh . merge . industrial designer: oh , can i say exp yes , i can . marketing: sucks . industrial designer: export as j_ peg . . okay , can i not put this wherever i wants . my document is the wrong one , huh . marketing: yeah , but user interface: network places . marketing: i do n't know . smart no . industrial designer: . marketing: ma it 's maybe it 's not on the network of uh the rest . user interface: industrial designer: i do n't think so . marketing: that one is . . user interface: i would n't pick that one , no . industrial designer: document and settings . marketing: industrial designer: that 's a pity . that means that we have to gon na draw it again . are you gon na do that ? user interface: sure . industrial designer: okay . user interface: oh . industrial designer: that yes . okay . okay . okay . yes , that 's correct . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: no . oh , it 's export . marketing: oh yeah , . industrial designer: okay . marketing: can i see scores ? industrial designer: oh , of course . marketing: uh , one one , two threes , two industrial designer: sorry . marketing: okay , then we 'll overall , two points . yes . user interface: i see you later . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: mm .

industrial designer proposed to give up the curve , but other people argued that the remote control would turn into something ordinary and be a straightforward remote control . project manager thought it would be a good idea to separate their product from the rest of the remote control world . therefore , they decided to keep the curve .

summarize the discussion about the name chosen of the product . </s> project manager: can i close this ? user interface: uh we do n't have any changes , do we ? project manager: oh , okay . user interface: so no . project manager: there we go . okay , here we are again . detailed design oh , come on . well ah s forgot to insert the minutes , but it 's about the same thing we discussed before . uh could open that anyway , think . other design anyway , we took as we took w we took rubber as as the material last time . we also that you 're just busy with it . took the advanced chip to t uh implement the advanced features . well , we discussed the design , no sharp corners , we rounded it off , like you see on the other screen , which is fine . um we agreed that the colour should be b uh yellow and black . yellow in the back because it 's m trendy , more trendy than black anyway . so then we ca yeah . we agreed that we would implement both the lcd and speech recognition , but i 'll get to that in a moment . 'cause some changes in the finances have left us implications anyway . so so , like i said , we had no insight in finances , no prices , marketing: hmm . project manager: but we have 'em now , and it 's bad . anyway . we are oh . prototype presentation , well first you guys built the prototype . so you could could present that . but um let 's see what be handy to do . nee no , you just go ahead and present the w we 'll scrap it later because what ? industrial designer: i think it 's more or less the same as we had . user interface: it 's basically what we agreed upon , marketing: hmm ? project manager: oh that 's user interface: but just a little bit more specified . industrial designer: no much s project manager: has n't changed that much , huh ? industrial designer: no no no , not at all . project manager: i did n't expect anyway . you just coloured it . user interface: uh s final design . basically in what we discussed , cover and buttons will be made of rubber , yellow colour , black components , as you can see right over here . project manager: mm-hmm . i like the menu . user interface: we chose a different type of colour for the menu . a bit darker yellow so that it com really shows in this keypad . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: if you put them all black , it 's not really that good a contrast . project manager: and i suppose the the the yellow is not printed on the on the rubber . it 's it 's part of the rubber , i suppose . user interface: so probab project manager: i think that 's more i think that 's more durable anyway than printed on to user interface: yeah . that 's the be industrial designer: hmm . user interface: and it i guess it 's more easier to just paint it on the rubber industrial designer: yeah , of course . user interface: than to uh industrial designer: that 's uh the integration story again . marketing: mm yeah . okay . user interface: so we have it 's a bit round shaped , project manager: oh yeah . user interface: that 's what we had uh we chose the buttons to be uh teletext , okay button , favourite channel and the mute . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so that 's basically what we chose there . project manager: okay . user interface: if you have anything to add , please interrupt me . industrial designer: no , uh this is just a description of what we see there . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so user interface: oh . industrial designer: speaks for itself . marketing: yeah . user interface: that 's pretty much it . project manager: okay . now it 's my time to ruin everything . well , not ruin everything , but no , nah . user interface: oh sorry . project manager: finances , that 's what we have here , what you drew . we have battery power , we have advanced chips and the sam the sensor . the sample sensor and uh for speak recognition anyway . so which you see the which is de o one of the most expensive parts . so well , we have sin one curve , a design . rubber design . and we had a special colour . suppose yellow is a special colour . so just half a euro for you have pushbuttons and an lcd display . you have the total of seventeen euros in production cost , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: which is higher than the twelve and a half that we are permitted to use . so , marketing: hmm . project manager: easy . what do we scrap . well think i had the best solution that i came up with is just to s take out the speech recognition . industrial designer: i d user interface: i 'd say that too . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: because the lcd has more support on customer side . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: there are ninety one percent of uh the people , or something like that . but ninety percent who favour an lcd display , and only sixty percent that favour speech recognition . i think it 's also harder to user interface: uh we do n't really have a extra function with the speech sample , marketing: yeah . user interface: which you ca n't do with a normal remote control , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: . so i ju user interface: which people already do . so project manager: i took that out . so and so it 's still stuck with thirteen , so i had to take out the special colour i suppose . and , yeah , i did n't see anything else i could take out . yeah , i could take out the push-buttons , marketing: pushbut project manager: but we need those . so , generally what i came up with , in order to be cou to to have production cost of twelve and a half euros , spe scrap speech recognition industrial designer: huh . marketing: special colour , yeah . project manager: and the separate covers can account for the if people want it , we 'll just then we 'll do it in black . we 'll just deliver it in black , have the it has all the function that it 's supposed to have , and if you want it if you want the custom design , then you can buy the separate covers . user interface: well , project manager: you make it d orange or whatever you want . user interface: i 'd i tend to disagree with you on that , because the trend issue was a big issue when we started designing this . project manager: it was a big issue , but user interface: so ca n't we just basically extend it to thirteen ? project manager: i 'll just go back . uh let 's just let 's see what okay , let 's just see what we no , we we have to be under twelve and a half . marketing: yeah , it project manager: it it 's not marketing: the p project manager: uh the project is a no-go if we go over twelve and a half , industrial designer: okay , but there 's another problem . marketing: and the p project manager: so . user interface: okay . industrial designer: but there 's another problem . marketing: what industrial designer: if we take another cover , for instance black , then we also need another button frame , 'cause black and black does n't work obviously . project manager: i think you that 's what you were ass assigned to do really , to to see how b th both those work together . industrial designer: huh . huh . yeah . project manager: so i think yeah , it 's i think it 's y one of the it 's a good way to um to help people uh to make to keep the product trendy too . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: just keep you just make new covers for the for it , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: like we agreed before . industrial designer: right . i agree . project manager: and everything that 's left is is the basic function that uh that we want our product to have . because the expensive parts are in either the advanced chip . but we need that for the lcd display . user interface: yeah . we do . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: then again , we have the lcd display , which is also expensive . b yeah , but those go together . and yeah , we could take out the curve . industrial designer: or say let 's lose rubber , take plastic . user interface: we could take out a curve indeed . project manager: could we could take out the curve . is that an option ? industrial designer: yes . marketing: . project manager: for you ? industrial designer: although we are demolishing a little bit the style . marketing: but uh the and user interface: i think the colour is more important than the really the curve , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but project manager: user interface: because if you just end up with an entirely black remote control project manager: i think it 's it it does ruin it , marketing: yeah . the people project manager: but the fact that i t took that decision or t industrial designer: yeah . project manager: took this example actually , not really decision , but the example is because we do offer the um the possibility of adding your own custom covers . so you can change any colour you want . so it 's just you deliver a basic remote control with a possibility to change you into whatever you want . industrial designer: can we then not also uh change the material ? we take plastic for the basic cover project manager: you can take plastic , industrial designer: and project manager: but i d it 's something that 's stuck into my mind is that something that really came forward from the marketing research is that people like the the the the squishy feeling of the spongy feeling of the marketing: spongy , yeah . industrial designer: we can put those to the to the other covers . project manager: and it really makes it also makes it different from the existing remote controls , marketing: yeah . project manager: because they 're all plastic . marketing: and project manager: so which in in turn industrial designer: that 's true . project manager: rubber would increase durability industrial designer: but project manager: because it does n't break . industrial designer: okay . but what do you then suggest we 'd lose ? because we have to lose two things and i guess . project manager: i al like i said , i lost the speech recognition and i lost the special colour , marketing: but industrial designer: yes . project manager: which would make this black a black and grey . industrial designer: okay , and that 's enough ? project manager: yeah , that 's that that that 's enough , because user interface: so black and grey is okay . project manager: i guess those are the basic colours . marketing: but project manager: so oh . user interface: which we can fabricate , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: i think those are basic col they want to user interface: okay . marketing: the people want to pay for for it , so why why uh do we have to keep us uh uh um on the twelve and a half ? project manager: to ensure the profit . that that 's th that 's the order . we 're just uh we 're the project team and we got our our orders from the pro from the boss of our company marketing: yeah . project manager: which say we do n't wan na spend more than twelve fifty for this . marketing: but we can take a risk . project manager: but that 's not for our that 's not our decision to take . we have a budget of twelve fifty per product . user interface: no , we basically marketing: okay , yeah . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so user interface: we need to stick to that . project manager: stick that . i do n't think it 's really bad either . i mean if we we have the the backup of or the backup design thing marketing: i hope the people will like it , project manager: to have marketing: but project manager: i think they would do . th i think they do like because yo we you we agree upon that the that the the the cover thing was a nice idea , marketing: project manager: because p you could have all sort of designs while at the same time just manufacturing one product , one basic product which you could turn into any any taste you want . marketing: yeah . project manager: so i think it 's the best solution to make those cu custom covers for the design aspect industrial designer: perhaps we should make m marketing: yeah . project manager: and keep the functionality between of within the th the boundaries of the your f uh your budget . industrial designer: huh . marketing: the first sheet . project manager: so industrial designer: perhaps we should make clear to our customer that we had to do this to stay under the cost . and that 's uh they know that this is an option and that we had to drop the option to stay under the cost , that they know that . project manager: well i do n't think yeah . is it worth is it is it industrial designer: perhaps they decide tha user interface: but they do n't project manager: does it mean anything to the customer ? like , it like , we do n't care we do n't care that you had to industrial designer: of course . perhaps they uh no , but perhaps they think uh okay , the cover is such a nice idea , uh let 's that that then they uh that allow us to make some more costs . project manager: true , industrial designer: we ca we uh we can at least tell them that project manager: but we did we did n't get that . so i think it 's industrial designer: you do n't know that . project manager: it should either be a pack , maybe we sh that should be sold in in the s in stores with with a standard cover or something . user interface: well industrial designer: huh . project manager: but industrial designer: no , i 'm not uh talking about that cost but the one that g has given us the order to design this . we could at least m uh make it like this , like you said , project manager: they could , but uh industrial designer: and then tell them okay , we had to drop this and that , just that you know . it is an still an option , but not for this price . project manager: it 's an option , but yeah , it 's true . so actually uh it 's not that much of an increase , but yeah . we can not contact them . user interface: and if we project manager: it 's just the order that we got . industrial designer: exactly , project manager: so that 's what we got ta go with . industrial designer: but marketing: yeah . project manager: so it 's either one fi just just to get it f just to get it through final , it 's either turned into plastic , drop the squishy feel , make it make it more breakable , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um or turn it yellow . so it 's uh something we have to decide on . industrial designer: i 'd say lose the curve and the colour project manager: i say lose the curve . oh that 's true , industrial designer: and project manager: we could lose the c i forgot that , yeah , sorry . uh the curve . so user interface: so which curve is that ba project manager: that 's just this one just d this is the banana curve . user interface: that 's basically that curve . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so this would this would be straight . user interface: so we could u still have the comfort . marketing: yeah , that 's better . project manager: no , uh no , that would be a curve inside the thing , i guess . no , would ju then it would just be a straight remote . just like like that . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: which would , yeah , turn it into something far more ordinary . we could make it yellow then , user interface: i second that . project manager: but you second that , you second that we lose the curve . user interface: no , that it would turn out to be a pretty straight-forward remote control . project manager: okay , yeah . user interface: so that 's not really that marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: so i think it would be a good idea to keep the curve to separate it from the rest of the remote control world , so to speak . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so we keep the curve . so the only only solution is either to use the l y lose the yellow or lose the rubber . user interface: i would project manager: and i 'm in favour of keeping the rubber , because it has more more advantages than the colour yellow has . industrial designer: oh . i agree . user interface: yeah . i would say i would agree with you on the colour , industrial designer: no . marketing: yep . user interface: because that 's an extra option , an extra service we can deliver for a little bit of more money . project manager: mm-hmm . yeah , um user interface: so we can always do that . project manager: i guess people are willing to pay for that . so i think we can take that option and just with uh with the idea in the back of our head that you can customise your remote control . industrial designer: hmm ? marketing: yeah . project manager: so i think that would still make it a nice product . industrial designer: yes . project manager: okay , we 're final on that . so it 's too bad we ca n't make the whole super thing . but anyways we 're here . um yeah . user interface: which is basically what we discussed . project manager: this we discussed just now . that 's just now just we could just discuss how the project went . i mean , was kind of marketing: and i want to do that . project manager: i sort of expected that everything would turn out this way , but because you yeah , everything can not be for free . we did n't i think it was too bad we did n't have the financial info the last time . because that was i th user interface: yes , industrial designer: huh . project manager: it was really essential really user interface: we could have project manager: to ma because we spent uh uh entire stage designing a product of which we had no idea what it would cost . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so we just put something marketing: yeah . project manager: i think it 's really nor not in stroke with reality actually . marketing: project manager: so industrial designer: me too , i felt a bit blind throughout the project , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: because in the beginning i had no list of available materials , project manager: yeah , i think would have been . marketing: yeah . project manager: materials would be ok industrial designer: and then i d had not list of available c finances . marketing: but project manager: at least the last meeting i would have expected had to have that . industrial designer: so project manager: so i suppose marketing: let 's um see um project manager: yeah , let 's see if it sells . i mean i suppose this sells , because it 's very very extended . marketing: um project manager: but user interface: well i hope it sells . marketing: let 's uh project manager: i suppose it sells , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: because it 's good . marketing: oh . project manager: i mean it 's got everything for the for the reasonable price , because we did n't know what it 's gon na cost anyway . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: marketing: hmm . okay , let 's eval evaluate uh the product of us , our design . um i have some uh a method , a requirements and scale of . i uh will pre present uh some statements and we will decided together wha what if it 's true or false project manager: okay . marketing: and uh then we see uh if the requirements of the user are fulfilled or not . project manager: have been met , okay . marketing: and i will uh make a new blank sheet project manager: yeah . marketing: so so the buttons , the look and feel . i thought it was okay , but the advanced uh settings , um screen , audio and channel project manager: they 're stuck under menu . user interface: which are basically accessible through the menu button . marketing: we are not project manager: for the menu . i think those are totally met , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: because we we really took them for the they have the feel they want , marketing: oh the menu button is it . user interface: yeah . marketing: hi oh , okay . project manager: they have the simplicity they want . marketing: then it 's all uh s project manager: i think it 's very uh very well met . either two or one maybe . industrial designer: one . marketing: it 's true . project manager: i think we took that everything they wanted into consideration . marketing: yeah . project manager: so it could either be a two or a one . marketing: so d oh wait . uh pen . project manager: one and a half . user interface: which is not an option . marketing: the p oh yeah , project manager: just create our own option . marketing: it 's red , okay , but look and feel is everybo it 's true . project manager: yeah . marketing: so anyone ? and the next one uh yeah , when it 's lost uh you can find it . project manager: it 's perfect . even for deaf people , yeah . marketing: it 's project manager: it 's i do n't think it 's perfect , but we did everything possible to to get it back . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: to make it that way , yeah . project manager: because if it 's stuck in you couch , you can see the light . maybe you can hear it . but i mean we tried , marketing: yeah . project manager: so i think it that 's that deserves a one . definitely . marketing: and it 's and it 's yeah . to . that 's okay then . and the next one . how is that ? uh w we had we do n't have an uh manual , industrial designer: manual . project manager: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think the lcd display could be a little bit more difficult then a normal remote control , marketing: but i think that 's a part of it . but project manager: i 'd use an remote control . user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: but then again , it 's for young people . so marketing: yeah , an lcd , it tells a lot about uh user interface: and it 's pretty straight-forward , industrial designer: yeah , i th project manager: it 's pretty straight-forward , uh-huh . user interface: you have a navigation no keys to navigate through the lcd menus . industrial designer: exactly . no , that 's true . i think it wo n't be a big problem . marketing: yeah . user interface: so marketing: so it 's a one user interface: one i d no , marketing: or a i do n't know . user interface: actu project manager: i think but we did n't even marketing: for the advanced uh settings . project manager: there was no issue on making a manual actually . we did n't really discuss it , marketing: no okay , that uh that 's true . project manager: but i do n't think it takes no , it really does does n't take time to learn , i think . we took it s it 's so easy , user interface: no , it it is pretty straight-forward . marketing: oh , so it project manager: we have so little button , everything speaks for itself really . so i think that 's industrial designer: ah . um project manager: yeah , we did n't it 's either two or one , i guess . marketing: takes no ti project manager: maybe it 's a two , because d uh the lcd is a little is a little new and there is there are some option hidden under the menu button . industrial designer: with the more important functions on . marketing: yeah . project manager: so i might make this a two instead of a one , i guess . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: and the lcd , you have to see it . project manager: so just make that a two . marketing: um mm oh , it 's a little bit learning . okay . uh yeah it 's uh a little bit same . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: but it tells you or not ? project manager: you can use the lcd in a good way . i think so . i think it 's perfect , the w where it is , what it can do , if it useful . i think so . marketing: but wha w industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: oh , yeah . what are we uh displaying on the lcd screen ? just uh only the channels and or industrial designer: the menus uh things like brightness and uh those kind of things we 've put in the menu , marketing: what uh ? industrial designer: because we have no buttons for those . user interface: well , basically the menu options indeed . but marketing: oh , in the lcd screen . project manager: no , y i mean in the lcd screen , the small screen . what does it display ? industrial designer: yes . marketing: and for a channel selection , uh or that 's not project manager: well i thought it was i thought it was i thought that people wanted previews on their i 'm not sure if that even possible , marketing: yeah , i thought i thought too project manager: but marketing: but project manager: 'cause it 's this requires a quite quite a bit of band-width . marketing: yeah . project manager: i do n't think it 's possible really . but the they did n't really define in what should be used for . user interface: no . marketing: maybe a tv guide or something in your lcd uh project manager: but i think in for example like tv guides , i think that 's that th that you can transmit through it and everything . just for extra information on your programmes . industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah . yeah , it must be clear then what what what for we use it . project manager: but also things like like like menus or p how about preferences of your uh with configuring your remote control for favourite your favourite channel for example , how do you configure that . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so that could be done by lcd display . i think it 's good . no , maybe it 's not a one because it 's we 're not using it perfectly . we did n't give it i do n't thing over-discussing . now we gave it enough thought though . i think we d should just lower this . marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe maybe it 's a three though . we could 've used it more effectively probably . marketing: yeah , indeed . project manager: marketing: so everybody 's agree with an uh three on it , project manager: yeah , we are using it , user interface: yeah . two or three . industrial designer: yes . marketing: it 's project manager: but it 's not marketing: w project manager: it 's not poorly used , but it 's not efficiently used , i think . user interface: so marketing: yeah . project manager: we could have ev even lost the selection button and uh done everything via lcd selection . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's now it 's just extra to illustrate im uh extra features , marketing: yeah , i project manager: but okay . marketing: a three . industrial designer: nah , it 's not really only an extra . user interface: you can seven . industrial designer: no menus . marketing: ah , nothing , that 's a seven . uh that 's uh industrial designer: think about project manager: can you talk to remote control ? user interface: or we could say it project manager: well , it ca n't talk anymore . so we scrap that . marketing: yeah . user interface: or we could say neutral , project manager: oh yeah user interface: we 'cause we scratched the project manager: just to be a prick , user interface: c project manager: but of course you can talk to your remote control , it does n't do anything . marketing: yeah yeah yeah yeah . project manager: but you c you can talk to it . marketing: not with the speech recognition . uh yeah , all the trends and no colours uh anymore . so project manager: well , we did take everything into consideration of course . uh the shape i shape is i marketing: yeah , uh um only in the curves . project manager: i think we yeah , i think that 's okay . marketing: but the colours , we do n't have special colours on it . user interface: no , we do n't have the colour . project manager: yeah , special co but we took into consideration the fact that it 's customisable user interface: so i marketing: yeah , project manager: to the fashi marketing: but we user interface: yes , but the end product so industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah , we do n't have it , so d project manager: we do n't have it we do have it , marketing: in the end product . project manager: it 's just sold as a package . industrial designer: but m project manager: it does it 's not part of the basic product . industrial designer: changing covers is also trend that we followed . project manager: it that that 's what i call trendy . i mean the shape is trendy . user interface: project manager: the the sh the the functions are trendy . it 's just the colours that are not supporting the basic model . because you ha marketing: now project manager: it 's just not affordable at the moment . user interface: maybe we should go with a two then , marketing: but it 's not a one . user interface: because it 's not perfect , because we ca n't do it initially , marketing: yeah . user interface: but we project manager: it 's possible , industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: oh . project manager: but you have to pay extra for the for the possibility of having it in a f a different colour . marketing: oh well oops . project manager: marketing: oh it 's a two , user interface: yeah . marketing: right ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: on the last one . uh that n that 's all . project manager: overall score . user interface: overall score . marketing: overall . it 's um project manager: one two three . sixteen . marketing: ten , sixteen three uh two project manager: two two point some two point something . marketing: two point seven or something like that . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: i do n't know why . user interface: ten , sixteen , divided by project manager: . industrial designer: six . marketing: six . user interface: is two two third . project manager: two and two thirds . marketing: um so project manager: marketing: we can say it 's it 's the product is it 's okay . project manager: it 's okay , but that 's yo m marketing: y not industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: mostly it 's it 's influenced by the fact that we did n't have enough resources to implement speech recognition . user interface: there 's industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause yeah , that gives you a seven , which ruins your your average . marketing: yeah . project manager: without that it would be like under it would n't yeah , it would be under two . so i think we have even with this it 's reasonable . marketing: woah . user interface: yeah , if we make it into a four , as in neutral , because we did n't implement it , so we ca n't say that we that it 's really not well implemented . we come out on a average of two one eighth . marketing: yeah . project manager: well i think it 's two is okay . user interface: so which is pretty w good . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , two is pretty good . user interface: it 's at least on the positive side . project manager: definitely . user interface: so we could definitely have done better if we 've had more resources , industrial designer: hmm , of course . marketing: yeah . user interface: but project manager: yeah , i think it 's probably i industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . project manager: i do admit that we d did miss a little or did n't sp did n't talk talk enough about the possibility of the lcd display . we could have used it more efficiently , marketing: yeah . project manager: we just did n't think of it that way . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , with . .. # user interface: true . project manager: so like i said , changing channels , everything hidden in your lcd display , so you just need the navigation buttons to do everything . marketing: the scale . industrial designer: but i think for this price , this is it 's really a reasonable product . project manager: i think we div i think we did very well , industrial designer: it 's a good product . project manager: uh ev even if you look at this score , we did quite well . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: oh . oh . yeah . marketing: with an lcd screen . project manager: it just looking for improvements what what you could have improved . so . industrial designer: but if pep people really want speech recognition , then they must be prepared to pu to pay more , because it 's can not be done for this . project manager: they sh they should get kids , and just stick 'em in tv and say change the channel . marketing: yeah , user interface: marketing: you can make 'em another one . industrial designer: hmm yeah . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: ah but for this price uh you can not ask that . project manager: i don ' think so . uh it 's just not it it 's not affordable . industrial designer: you can not th think of that project manager: or your sh you should lose the lcd screen probably , industrial designer: no , it 's not . project manager: but i think that 's i think the lcd screen is more worth than speech recognition . industrial designer: mm-hmm . oh it 's also more attractive . project manager: definitely . okay , that was that . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: so that 's the final product without the speakers , i guess . user interface: so did you project manager: let 's see , what was left in the the another one . hmm . yeah , marketing: project manager: we evaluate the product . general project , what 's i in for example , i thou i thought we were pretty creative in what we created . we took the whole new approach of making exchangeable cover for example , which i thought was pretty creative , because it was never never ever listed somewhere . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: favourite channel . project manager: well anyways . yeah , leadership is up to you . i mean perhaps i screwed up because i d put a put a speech recognition into it . but that 's not for me to decide . marketing: yeah , i know . yeah . project manager: i think we did pretty well as team-work though . because , yeah was very hard to work with one another if you can not communicate in the meantime , industrial designer: yes . hmm . project manager: because when i got the when i got the input for the financial results , initially of course i wanted to contact you . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah , you 're working separate . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: say , look , this is you 're doing the wrong thing , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: huh . project manager: you 're s you 're wasting your time now , because we 're implementing stuff that we can not afford . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah , yeah yeah . project manager: so it would be better if y if there was more communication between uh industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah yeah yeah . direct uh communication with yeah . project manager: because that 's that 's what would w you what you would normally do , either call or email someone . user interface: and we could share information which we received . project manager: so that was too bad industrial designer: hmm . project manager: con was impossible here anyways . . industrial designer: that 's the same thing that i had in the beginning . everybody was using materials that s i did n't have . project manager: it did n't have industrial designer: so project manager: or did n't knew what they costs or whatever . marketing: yeah . project manager: there was just too little information about what things actually cost and if you could use them . industrial designer: oh . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so that was a little unclear i suppose . i think a smartboard smartboard is pretty cool . i think uh s especially for design issues , it 's very easy just to give your give your thoughts a little it 's easier to share them . marketing: my handwriting is little bit yeah . yeah . user interface: although for actual design i 'd say the response time should be a little bit higher , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: it 's a little less it the response time is le it 's very bad . user interface: because industrial designer: hmm . project manager: it 's good to visualise everything , but i think the response time should could be a lot better . user interface: the digital pen was definitely better to draw my ideas and to further elaborate on that . marketing: but th that 's project manager: definitely . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , it 's true . marketing: yeah , okay . user interface: so industrial designer: but there 's uh also one problem with this i noticed . uh you have to finish a page before going to a n project manager: no , you do n't have to . no , you do n't . marketing: no . project manager: i jin i did n't check the finish button . industrial designer: oh . marketing: you can project manager: i just you just ditch it and you can copy it or whatever . marketing: done and then it 's okay . industrial designer: okay , i saw that uh project manager: uh only if you uh check the notes or press done . then it um then you can then it exports to word automatically . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: but it 's not necessary to check either one of those two . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: you can just preview your p you can just preview your page in the in the programme . industrial designer: but i made marketing: oh , okay . industrial designer: okay , but i made three pages marketing: okay , yeah . industrial designer: and they were not finished . and when the third one was finished , i wanted to download it and then it was not possible anymore , because you have to close all the pinnits uh the pages before going further . project manager: okay , before starting a ne a new page . marketing: okay . project manager: okay , that could be b . industrial designer: exactly . so we can not work on more than one page at same time . that 's not possible . marketing: oh . project manager: okay . industrial designer: you have to finish it completely , marketing: hmm . user interface: oh can you ? okay . industrial designer: then download it , it 's then start a new one . project manager: yeah , okay . industrial designer: that 's not very uh handy , project manager: that 's industrial designer: but if you know that , then it 's not a problem . project manager: yeah , it 's understandable , okay . any new ideas ? yeah , more communication between between uh that 's the thing i noticed , that communication is very um very important , industrial designer: marketing: important to mm project manager: because if you get new information , it 's essential f for the other team-mates to know that as soon as possible , because you would avoid making doing extra work , because you were doing extra work now uh m working on the on the speech recognition , you have limitation both on the technical on the d on the design side . marketing: yeah . project manager: so i think that could have been better . but that 's i think it 's more of a a setting here that you can not communicate than uh than somewhere else . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so user interface: yeah , well it could also possibly be well , is it a more real-time information base , so we can all see which information is available to one another . project manager: yeah , i think so . and l less p less spam probably . i 'm not sure i i 'm not sure you got spammed as well , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: but i get spammed like every t every two minutes there was a there was another email about master classes or something . industrial designer: ah . well project manager: so industrial designer: hmm . project manager: which were totally useless actually . i thought i should probably look into them , but they were all useless . so i just user interface: well , i personally did not have that , marketing: mm project manager: oh okay . user interface: but that 's probably your l description . project manager: user interface: but i also did n't not really . but still , you had that as well . is that we finished up the design industrial designer: huh . user interface: and then we checked the website , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then there was just extra information . marketing: yeah , after after five minutes , uh industrial designer: . user interface: there was a little delay in the bit of a c crucial delay . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: yeah . project manager: i did n't have any uh more information , it 's just always the same here . so that 's that 's kind of a industrial designer: mm . marketing: email uh project manager: it would change , but not for me . so i 'd i had no extra information to go on that one than what you give me actually . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: i could n't do any research myself industrial designer: hmm . project manager: or i see , that 's industrial designer: hmm . project manager: yeah , w i could have done a little extra work probably , then marketing: it 's project manager: but i was busy enough anyway . so industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah . project manager: any new ideas found ? or is that a 'cause uh yeah , it 's well , industrial designer: no . project manager: probably is . user interface: how much time do we have for this anyway ? project manager: i have no clue . that 's like oh , but it should i industrial designer: . project manager: if the project is evaluated and it was it was in b within budget , we should celebrate . so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay , marketing: industrial designer: bring out the beer . user interface: champagne . project manager: uh okay , think that 's about it . uh marketing: i want one for my own . project manager: i 'm not sure what we should still do though uh t let 's see what all your tasks were finished , right ? what you ha from your assistant . so let 's marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i have no more email . my coach is uh being very silent now . project manager: okay , marketing: yeah , project manager: i should i think i sh marketing: my personal coach i project manager: i still have the the total report to finish up . i think we took very little time now , because yeah , we 're in agreement , everything the design is okay . the one thing we missed though , we do n't have a product name . marketing: what industrial designer: no , project manager: how about you cook a how about you cook up a product name ? user interface: product name . industrial designer: we have n't think above about that . marketing: yeah , name . industrial designer: huh . it 's better than thi i think than a serial number . sony uh t_r_ something uh f means nothing to me . uh project manager: just marketing: or fruit name . project manager: oh , think of a catchy name . i 'll be working on this until the beep until it beeps . so industrial designer: like fruit names . marketing: fruit name or something like that . project manager: what ? fruit ? marketing: the banana remote or something . project manager: you do n't want it to resemble a banana . marketing: i do n't know . yeah , it 's the form of it . project manager: it 's not yellow anyway . user interface: the bana 'cause it 's not yellow anymore . project manager: it 's not yellow anymore . marketing: yeah oh , yeah . project manager: it is curved , but marketing: uh yeah . uh user interface: well , uh i was going for the r_c_ deluxe , but it 's not really a catchy name or anything , project manager: no , user interface: it 's more project manager: it 's industrial designer: uh at least it 's not something with numbers . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: numbers are so meaningless to the people . i mean marketing: yeah . user interface: something with our company name , marketing: that 's true . user interface: can we do anything with that ? industrial designer: . user interface: maybe there 's something on the website which will help us out . marketing: reaction , real reaction . project manager: industrial designer: real reaction . user interface: the reaction deluxe . project manager: real reaction future r_c_ . step into the future of of remote controlling your tv . user interface: is that a name or a c campaign ? marketing: project manager: no that 's a that 's a catchy slogan . user interface: yeah . project manager: control your remote control . user interface: or the the real reactor . industrial designer: real react . project manager: i go for future r_c_ probably . something like it 's short f industrial designer: the real reactor , i do n't find that uh that bad at all . marketing: . project manager: real reactor ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh that that 's user interface: you should write it down as a an option . industrial designer: because our name is real reaction . project manager: that makes me think of different products than a remote control really . marketing: . user interface: project manager: i 'm not sure . real reaction in a real marketing: zapping . the user interface: so that 's one option . project manager: real reactor . did n't notice . industrial designer: i 'm looking for things in the name . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so that the first three letters are s the same . r_e_a_ r_e_a_ . user interface: should i write the banana down or project manager: i take f marketing: yeah , sure . project manager: yeah , take a banana . user interface: sure ? marketing: the banana . project manager: hmm . marketing: remote . banana recei r_c_ . industrial designer: the triple r_ . real reaction remotes control . triple r_ . marketing: remote . user interface: well i marketing: r_ three c_ . user interface: uh do you mean it like industrial designer: ? marketing: r_ three c_ . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: you mean it like this ? industrial designer: yeah , that marketing: real reaction remote control . r_ three c_ . oh yeah . industrial designer: . . project manager: no , not like that . it should be it should be longer , because it 's not a product name that you f print on a box . industrial designer: i think triple r_ . project manager: just write out triple , like a word triple r_c_ , triple stripe oh . triple dash r_ dash s s c_ . industrial designer: does n't sound ? marketing: yeah , triple r_ . industrial designer: yeah . ah . marketing: triple r_c_ . the triple r_c_ , yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: r_ s r_ three c_ . . project manager: r_ dash c_ . user interface: dash c_ ? industrial designer: i think i like it like this more . project manager: dash . triple r_ or triple r_c_ ? user interface: like a c_ right now or a dash in a c_ ? marketing: triple r_ dash . project manager: how about do both ? user interface: project manager: sure if it looks stupid . uh i think that the the r_c_ together takes away the the the image of it 's a triple industrial designer: hmm . project manager: uh the first the first one looks like it 's a triple remote control , industrial designer: mm . marketing: that project manager: but it 's only a single remote control . and it 's especially on the triple r_ that 's important . the real reaction remote . industrial designer: i would huh . i would lose the c_ marketing: yeah , this yeah . industrial designer: and just name it triple r_ . user interface: is it triple r_c_s ? no . project manager: industrial designer: it sounds like uh thinking about two different things and combining it . marketing: triple remote . industrial designer: i would just say triple r_s triple r_ marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , triple r_ yeah , you can user interface: well , that 's another option . industrial designer: that 's also short , catchy . marketing: it 's okay . project manager: yeah , triple r_ . user interface: okay , so which ones are we going to scratch definitely ? marketing: the banana . banana . project manager: banana remote . industrial designer: banana . user interface: i say this one as well . marketing: yeah , the deluxe . project manager: i think we 're all in agreement about the triple r_ . industrial designer: . project manager: i think triple r_ is cool . industrial designer: yes . user interface: triple r_ ? marketing: the r triple r_ . project manager: and it looks cool when you print it in font , looks pretty cool . user interface: triple r_ it is . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: did you do now ? project manager: just like this just and you just print triple r_ , it looks does n't look bad , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 's short , it 's okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so have to write my report now , i guess . um um yeah , so we have everything . we have the product , we have the costs , industrial designer: yep . project manager: we have the possibility of everything . marketing: it ca n't work . that will not project manager: okay . i think it 's adjourned . retire to my lair and finish the report . that was a short meeting . but efficient though . industrial designer: mm-hmm . the boss is always the last one to go home . so project manager: probably . see . okay , user interface: project manager: goodbye . marketing: okay . industrial designer: see you in a minute . marketing: damn . i will write that one in a word uh document . industrial designer: okay . project manager: could you guys draw me a picture of the final design to put on the cover of the report ? user interface: yeah , sure . marketing: industrial designer: ca n't we take this one ? marketing: oh sh industrial designer: otherwise we have to do it all over again . marketing: um user interface: i do n't really know whether we can save it as a picture or no . industrial designer: is it okay if i try ? is that okay with you ? user interface: sure . marketing: yeah , okay , i will ask you when uh i need the information . industrial designer: i 'll put it back in a minute . marketing: so it 's oh . industrial designer: okay , it has been saving something , but where to i do n't know . marketing: uh oh . merge . industrial designer: oh , can i say exp yes , i can . marketing: sucks . industrial designer: export as j_ peg . . okay , can i not put this wherever i wants . my document is the wrong one , huh . marketing: yeah , but user interface: network places . marketing: i do n't know . smart no . industrial designer: . marketing: ma it 's maybe it 's not on the network of uh the rest . user interface: industrial designer: i do n't think so . marketing: that one is . . user interface: i would n't pick that one , no . industrial designer: document and settings . marketing: industrial designer: that 's a pity . that means that we have to gon na draw it again . are you gon na do that ? user interface: sure . industrial designer: okay . user interface: oh . industrial designer: that yes . okay . okay . okay . yes , that 's correct . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: no . oh , it 's export . marketing: oh yeah , . industrial designer: okay . marketing: can i see scores ? industrial designer: oh , of course . marketing: uh , one one , two threes , two industrial designer: sorry . marketing: okay , then we 'll overall , two points . yes . user interface: i see you later . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: mm .

they drafted several potential product names , including `` banana '' , `` rc deluxe '' , `` real reactor '' , `` triple rc '' , etc . they concentrated on adjusting the `` triple rc '' , and eventually decided on `` triple r '' . the group thought this name was cool , and especially looked cool when it was printed in the front , and it was catchy .

what was the advantage of `` triple r '' compared to `` triple rc '' when discussing the name chosen of the product ? </s> project manager: can i close this ? user interface: uh we do n't have any changes , do we ? project manager: oh , okay . user interface: so no . project manager: there we go . okay , here we are again . detailed design oh , come on . well ah s forgot to insert the minutes , but it 's about the same thing we discussed before . uh could open that anyway , think . other design anyway , we took as we took w we took rubber as as the material last time . we also that you 're just busy with it . took the advanced chip to t uh implement the advanced features . well , we discussed the design , no sharp corners , we rounded it off , like you see on the other screen , which is fine . um we agreed that the colour should be b uh yellow and black . yellow in the back because it 's m trendy , more trendy than black anyway . so then we ca yeah . we agreed that we would implement both the lcd and speech recognition , but i 'll get to that in a moment . 'cause some changes in the finances have left us implications anyway . so so , like i said , we had no insight in finances , no prices , marketing: hmm . project manager: but we have 'em now , and it 's bad . anyway . we are oh . prototype presentation , well first you guys built the prototype . so you could could present that . but um let 's see what be handy to do . nee no , you just go ahead and present the w we 'll scrap it later because what ? industrial designer: i think it 's more or less the same as we had . user interface: it 's basically what we agreed upon , marketing: hmm ? project manager: oh that 's user interface: but just a little bit more specified . industrial designer: no much s project manager: has n't changed that much , huh ? industrial designer: no no no , not at all . project manager: i did n't expect anyway . you just coloured it . user interface: uh s final design . basically in what we discussed , cover and buttons will be made of rubber , yellow colour , black components , as you can see right over here . project manager: mm-hmm . i like the menu . user interface: we chose a different type of colour for the menu . a bit darker yellow so that it com really shows in this keypad . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: if you put them all black , it 's not really that good a contrast . project manager: and i suppose the the the yellow is not printed on the on the rubber . it 's it 's part of the rubber , i suppose . user interface: so probab project manager: i think that 's more i think that 's more durable anyway than printed on to user interface: yeah . that 's the be industrial designer: hmm . user interface: and it i guess it 's more easier to just paint it on the rubber industrial designer: yeah , of course . user interface: than to uh industrial designer: that 's uh the integration story again . marketing: mm yeah . okay . user interface: so we have it 's a bit round shaped , project manager: oh yeah . user interface: that 's what we had uh we chose the buttons to be uh teletext , okay button , favourite channel and the mute . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so that 's basically what we chose there . project manager: okay . user interface: if you have anything to add , please interrupt me . industrial designer: no , uh this is just a description of what we see there . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so user interface: oh . industrial designer: speaks for itself . marketing: yeah . user interface: that 's pretty much it . project manager: okay . now it 's my time to ruin everything . well , not ruin everything , but no , nah . user interface: oh sorry . project manager: finances , that 's what we have here , what you drew . we have battery power , we have advanced chips and the sam the sensor . the sample sensor and uh for speak recognition anyway . so which you see the which is de o one of the most expensive parts . so well , we have sin one curve , a design . rubber design . and we had a special colour . suppose yellow is a special colour . so just half a euro for you have pushbuttons and an lcd display . you have the total of seventeen euros in production cost , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: which is higher than the twelve and a half that we are permitted to use . so , marketing: hmm . project manager: easy . what do we scrap . well think i had the best solution that i came up with is just to s take out the speech recognition . industrial designer: i d user interface: i 'd say that too . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: because the lcd has more support on customer side . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: there are ninety one percent of uh the people , or something like that . but ninety percent who favour an lcd display , and only sixty percent that favour speech recognition . i think it 's also harder to user interface: uh we do n't really have a extra function with the speech sample , marketing: yeah . user interface: which you ca n't do with a normal remote control , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: . so i ju user interface: which people already do . so project manager: i took that out . so and so it 's still stuck with thirteen , so i had to take out the special colour i suppose . and , yeah , i did n't see anything else i could take out . yeah , i could take out the push-buttons , marketing: pushbut project manager: but we need those . so , generally what i came up with , in order to be cou to to have production cost of twelve and a half euros , spe scrap speech recognition industrial designer: huh . marketing: special colour , yeah . project manager: and the separate covers can account for the if people want it , we 'll just then we 'll do it in black . we 'll just deliver it in black , have the it has all the function that it 's supposed to have , and if you want it if you want the custom design , then you can buy the separate covers . user interface: well , project manager: you make it d orange or whatever you want . user interface: i 'd i tend to disagree with you on that , because the trend issue was a big issue when we started designing this . project manager: it was a big issue , but user interface: so ca n't we just basically extend it to thirteen ? project manager: i 'll just go back . uh let 's just let 's see what okay , let 's just see what we no , we we have to be under twelve and a half . marketing: yeah , it project manager: it it 's not marketing: the p project manager: uh the project is a no-go if we go over twelve and a half , industrial designer: okay , but there 's another problem . marketing: and the p project manager: so . user interface: okay . industrial designer: but there 's another problem . marketing: what industrial designer: if we take another cover , for instance black , then we also need another button frame , 'cause black and black does n't work obviously . project manager: i think you that 's what you were ass assigned to do really , to to see how b th both those work together . industrial designer: huh . huh . yeah . project manager: so i think yeah , it 's i think it 's y one of the it 's a good way to um to help people uh to make to keep the product trendy too . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: just keep you just make new covers for the for it , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: like we agreed before . industrial designer: right . i agree . project manager: and everything that 's left is is the basic function that uh that we want our product to have . because the expensive parts are in either the advanced chip . but we need that for the lcd display . user interface: yeah . we do . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: then again , we have the lcd display , which is also expensive . b yeah , but those go together . and yeah , we could take out the curve . industrial designer: or say let 's lose rubber , take plastic . user interface: we could take out a curve indeed . project manager: could we could take out the curve . is that an option ? industrial designer: yes . marketing: . project manager: for you ? industrial designer: although we are demolishing a little bit the style . marketing: but uh the and user interface: i think the colour is more important than the really the curve , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but project manager: user interface: because if you just end up with an entirely black remote control project manager: i think it 's it it does ruin it , marketing: yeah . the people project manager: but the fact that i t took that decision or t industrial designer: yeah . project manager: took this example actually , not really decision , but the example is because we do offer the um the possibility of adding your own custom covers . so you can change any colour you want . so it 's just you deliver a basic remote control with a possibility to change you into whatever you want . industrial designer: can we then not also uh change the material ? we take plastic for the basic cover project manager: you can take plastic , industrial designer: and project manager: but i d it 's something that 's stuck into my mind is that something that really came forward from the marketing research is that people like the the the the squishy feeling of the spongy feeling of the marketing: spongy , yeah . industrial designer: we can put those to the to the other covers . project manager: and it really makes it also makes it different from the existing remote controls , marketing: yeah . project manager: because they 're all plastic . marketing: and project manager: so which in in turn industrial designer: that 's true . project manager: rubber would increase durability industrial designer: but project manager: because it does n't break . industrial designer: okay . but what do you then suggest we 'd lose ? because we have to lose two things and i guess . project manager: i al like i said , i lost the speech recognition and i lost the special colour , marketing: but industrial designer: yes . project manager: which would make this black a black and grey . industrial designer: okay , and that 's enough ? project manager: yeah , that 's that that that 's enough , because user interface: so black and grey is okay . project manager: i guess those are the basic colours . marketing: but project manager: so oh . user interface: which we can fabricate , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: i think those are basic col they want to user interface: okay . marketing: the people want to pay for for it , so why why uh do we have to keep us uh uh um on the twelve and a half ? project manager: to ensure the profit . that that 's th that 's the order . we 're just uh we 're the project team and we got our our orders from the pro from the boss of our company marketing: yeah . project manager: which say we do n't wan na spend more than twelve fifty for this . marketing: but we can take a risk . project manager: but that 's not for our that 's not our decision to take . we have a budget of twelve fifty per product . user interface: no , we basically marketing: okay , yeah . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so user interface: we need to stick to that . project manager: stick that . i do n't think it 's really bad either . i mean if we we have the the backup of or the backup design thing marketing: i hope the people will like it , project manager: to have marketing: but project manager: i think they would do . th i think they do like because yo we you we agree upon that the that the the the cover thing was a nice idea , marketing: project manager: because p you could have all sort of designs while at the same time just manufacturing one product , one basic product which you could turn into any any taste you want . marketing: yeah . project manager: so i think it 's the best solution to make those cu custom covers for the design aspect industrial designer: perhaps we should make m marketing: yeah . project manager: and keep the functionality between of within the th the boundaries of the your f uh your budget . industrial designer: huh . marketing: the first sheet . project manager: so industrial designer: perhaps we should make clear to our customer that we had to do this to stay under the cost . and that 's uh they know that this is an option and that we had to drop the option to stay under the cost , that they know that . project manager: well i do n't think yeah . is it worth is it is it industrial designer: perhaps they decide tha user interface: but they do n't project manager: does it mean anything to the customer ? like , it like , we do n't care we do n't care that you had to industrial designer: of course . perhaps they uh no , but perhaps they think uh okay , the cover is such a nice idea , uh let 's that that then they uh that allow us to make some more costs . project manager: true , industrial designer: we ca we uh we can at least tell them that project manager: but we did we did n't get that . so i think it 's industrial designer: you do n't know that . project manager: it should either be a pack , maybe we sh that should be sold in in the s in stores with with a standard cover or something . user interface: well industrial designer: huh . project manager: but industrial designer: no , i 'm not uh talking about that cost but the one that g has given us the order to design this . we could at least m uh make it like this , like you said , project manager: they could , but uh industrial designer: and then tell them okay , we had to drop this and that , just that you know . it is an still an option , but not for this price . project manager: it 's an option , but yeah , it 's true . so actually uh it 's not that much of an increase , but yeah . we can not contact them . user interface: and if we project manager: it 's just the order that we got . industrial designer: exactly , project manager: so that 's what we got ta go with . industrial designer: but marketing: yeah . project manager: so it 's either one fi just just to get it f just to get it through final , it 's either turned into plastic , drop the squishy feel , make it make it more breakable , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um or turn it yellow . so it 's uh something we have to decide on . industrial designer: i 'd say lose the curve and the colour project manager: i say lose the curve . oh that 's true , industrial designer: and project manager: we could lose the c i forgot that , yeah , sorry . uh the curve . so user interface: so which curve is that ba project manager: that 's just this one just d this is the banana curve . user interface: that 's basically that curve . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so this would this would be straight . user interface: so we could u still have the comfort . marketing: yeah , that 's better . project manager: no , uh no , that would be a curve inside the thing , i guess . no , would ju then it would just be a straight remote . just like like that . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: which would , yeah , turn it into something far more ordinary . we could make it yellow then , user interface: i second that . project manager: but you second that , you second that we lose the curve . user interface: no , that it would turn out to be a pretty straight-forward remote control . project manager: okay , yeah . user interface: so that 's not really that marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: so i think it would be a good idea to keep the curve to separate it from the rest of the remote control world , so to speak . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so we keep the curve . so the only only solution is either to use the l y lose the yellow or lose the rubber . user interface: i would project manager: and i 'm in favour of keeping the rubber , because it has more more advantages than the colour yellow has . industrial designer: oh . i agree . user interface: yeah . i would say i would agree with you on the colour , industrial designer: no . marketing: yep . user interface: because that 's an extra option , an extra service we can deliver for a little bit of more money . project manager: mm-hmm . yeah , um user interface: so we can always do that . project manager: i guess people are willing to pay for that . so i think we can take that option and just with uh with the idea in the back of our head that you can customise your remote control . industrial designer: hmm ? marketing: yeah . project manager: so i think that would still make it a nice product . industrial designer: yes . project manager: okay , we 're final on that . so it 's too bad we ca n't make the whole super thing . but anyways we 're here . um yeah . user interface: which is basically what we discussed . project manager: this we discussed just now . that 's just now just we could just discuss how the project went . i mean , was kind of marketing: and i want to do that . project manager: i sort of expected that everything would turn out this way , but because you yeah , everything can not be for free . we did n't i think it was too bad we did n't have the financial info the last time . because that was i th user interface: yes , industrial designer: huh . project manager: it was really essential really user interface: we could have project manager: to ma because we spent uh uh entire stage designing a product of which we had no idea what it would cost . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so we just put something marketing: yeah . project manager: i think it 's really nor not in stroke with reality actually . marketing: project manager: so industrial designer: me too , i felt a bit blind throughout the project , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: because in the beginning i had no list of available materials , project manager: yeah , i think would have been . marketing: yeah . project manager: materials would be ok industrial designer: and then i d had not list of available c finances . marketing: but project manager: at least the last meeting i would have expected had to have that . industrial designer: so project manager: so i suppose marketing: let 's um see um project manager: yeah , let 's see if it sells . i mean i suppose this sells , because it 's very very extended . marketing: um project manager: but user interface: well i hope it sells . marketing: let 's uh project manager: i suppose it sells , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: because it 's good . marketing: oh . project manager: i mean it 's got everything for the for the reasonable price , because we did n't know what it 's gon na cost anyway . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: marketing: hmm . okay , let 's eval evaluate uh the product of us , our design . um i have some uh a method , a requirements and scale of . i uh will pre present uh some statements and we will decided together wha what if it 's true or false project manager: okay . marketing: and uh then we see uh if the requirements of the user are fulfilled or not . project manager: have been met , okay . marketing: and i will uh make a new blank sheet project manager: yeah . marketing: so so the buttons , the look and feel . i thought it was okay , but the advanced uh settings , um screen , audio and channel project manager: they 're stuck under menu . user interface: which are basically accessible through the menu button . marketing: we are not project manager: for the menu . i think those are totally met , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: because we we really took them for the they have the feel they want , marketing: oh the menu button is it . user interface: yeah . marketing: hi oh , okay . project manager: they have the simplicity they want . marketing: then it 's all uh s project manager: i think it 's very uh very well met . either two or one maybe . industrial designer: one . marketing: it 's true . project manager: i think we took that everything they wanted into consideration . marketing: yeah . project manager: so it could either be a two or a one . marketing: so d oh wait . uh pen . project manager: one and a half . user interface: which is not an option . marketing: the p oh yeah , project manager: just create our own option . marketing: it 's red , okay , but look and feel is everybo it 's true . project manager: yeah . marketing: so anyone ? and the next one uh yeah , when it 's lost uh you can find it . project manager: it 's perfect . even for deaf people , yeah . marketing: it 's project manager: it 's i do n't think it 's perfect , but we did everything possible to to get it back . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: to make it that way , yeah . project manager: because if it 's stuck in you couch , you can see the light . maybe you can hear it . but i mean we tried , marketing: yeah . project manager: so i think it that 's that deserves a one . definitely . marketing: and it 's and it 's yeah . to . that 's okay then . and the next one . how is that ? uh w we had we do n't have an uh manual , industrial designer: manual . project manager: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think the lcd display could be a little bit more difficult then a normal remote control , marketing: but i think that 's a part of it . but project manager: i 'd use an remote control . user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: but then again , it 's for young people . so marketing: yeah , an lcd , it tells a lot about uh user interface: and it 's pretty straight-forward , industrial designer: yeah , i th project manager: it 's pretty straight-forward , uh-huh . user interface: you have a navigation no keys to navigate through the lcd menus . industrial designer: exactly . no , that 's true . i think it wo n't be a big problem . marketing: yeah . user interface: so marketing: so it 's a one user interface: one i d no , marketing: or a i do n't know . user interface: actu project manager: i think but we did n't even marketing: for the advanced uh settings . project manager: there was no issue on making a manual actually . we did n't really discuss it , marketing: no okay , that uh that 's true . project manager: but i do n't think it takes no , it really does does n't take time to learn , i think . we took it s it 's so easy , user interface: no , it it is pretty straight-forward . marketing: oh , so it project manager: we have so little button , everything speaks for itself really . so i think that 's industrial designer: ah . um project manager: yeah , we did n't it 's either two or one , i guess . marketing: takes no ti project manager: maybe it 's a two , because d uh the lcd is a little is a little new and there is there are some option hidden under the menu button . industrial designer: with the more important functions on . marketing: yeah . project manager: so i might make this a two instead of a one , i guess . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: and the lcd , you have to see it . project manager: so just make that a two . marketing: um mm oh , it 's a little bit learning . okay . uh yeah it 's uh a little bit same . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: but it tells you or not ? project manager: you can use the lcd in a good way . i think so . i think it 's perfect , the w where it is , what it can do , if it useful . i think so . marketing: but wha w industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: oh , yeah . what are we uh displaying on the lcd screen ? just uh only the channels and or industrial designer: the menus uh things like brightness and uh those kind of things we 've put in the menu , marketing: what uh ? industrial designer: because we have no buttons for those . user interface: well , basically the menu options indeed . but marketing: oh , in the lcd screen . project manager: no , y i mean in the lcd screen , the small screen . what does it display ? industrial designer: yes . marketing: and for a channel selection , uh or that 's not project manager: well i thought it was i thought it was i thought that people wanted previews on their i 'm not sure if that even possible , marketing: yeah , i thought i thought too project manager: but marketing: but project manager: 'cause it 's this requires a quite quite a bit of band-width . marketing: yeah . project manager: i do n't think it 's possible really . but the they did n't really define in what should be used for . user interface: no . marketing: maybe a tv guide or something in your lcd uh project manager: but i think in for example like tv guides , i think that 's that th that you can transmit through it and everything . just for extra information on your programmes . industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah . yeah , it must be clear then what what what for we use it . project manager: but also things like like like menus or p how about preferences of your uh with configuring your remote control for favourite your favourite channel for example , how do you configure that . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so that could be done by lcd display . i think it 's good . no , maybe it 's not a one because it 's we 're not using it perfectly . we did n't give it i do n't thing over-discussing . now we gave it enough thought though . i think we d should just lower this . marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe maybe it 's a three though . we could 've used it more effectively probably . marketing: yeah , indeed . project manager: marketing: so everybody 's agree with an uh three on it , project manager: yeah , we are using it , user interface: yeah . two or three . industrial designer: yes . marketing: it 's project manager: but it 's not marketing: w project manager: it 's not poorly used , but it 's not efficiently used , i think . user interface: so marketing: yeah . project manager: we could have ev even lost the selection button and uh done everything via lcd selection . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's now it 's just extra to illustrate im uh extra features , marketing: yeah , i project manager: but okay . marketing: a three . industrial designer: nah , it 's not really only an extra . user interface: you can seven . industrial designer: no menus . marketing: ah , nothing , that 's a seven . uh that 's uh industrial designer: think about project manager: can you talk to remote control ? user interface: or we could say it project manager: well , it ca n't talk anymore . so we scrap that . marketing: yeah . user interface: or we could say neutral , project manager: oh yeah user interface: we 'cause we scratched the project manager: just to be a prick , user interface: c project manager: but of course you can talk to your remote control , it does n't do anything . marketing: yeah yeah yeah yeah . project manager: but you c you can talk to it . marketing: not with the speech recognition . uh yeah , all the trends and no colours uh anymore . so project manager: well , we did take everything into consideration of course . uh the shape i shape is i marketing: yeah , uh um only in the curves . project manager: i think we yeah , i think that 's okay . marketing: but the colours , we do n't have special colours on it . user interface: no , we do n't have the colour . project manager: yeah , special co but we took into consideration the fact that it 's customisable user interface: so i marketing: yeah , project manager: to the fashi marketing: but we user interface: yes , but the end product so industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah , we do n't have it , so d project manager: we do n't have it we do have it , marketing: in the end product . project manager: it 's just sold as a package . industrial designer: but m project manager: it does it 's not part of the basic product . industrial designer: changing covers is also trend that we followed . project manager: it that that 's what i call trendy . i mean the shape is trendy . user interface: project manager: the the sh the the functions are trendy . it 's just the colours that are not supporting the basic model . because you ha marketing: now project manager: it 's just not affordable at the moment . user interface: maybe we should go with a two then , marketing: but it 's not a one . user interface: because it 's not perfect , because we ca n't do it initially , marketing: yeah . user interface: but we project manager: it 's possible , industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: oh . project manager: but you have to pay extra for the for the possibility of having it in a f a different colour . marketing: oh well oops . project manager: marketing: oh it 's a two , user interface: yeah . marketing: right ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: on the last one . uh that n that 's all . project manager: overall score . user interface: overall score . marketing: overall . it 's um project manager: one two three . sixteen . marketing: ten , sixteen three uh two project manager: two two point some two point something . marketing: two point seven or something like that . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: i do n't know why . user interface: ten , sixteen , divided by project manager: . industrial designer: six . marketing: six . user interface: is two two third . project manager: two and two thirds . marketing: um so project manager: marketing: we can say it 's it 's the product is it 's okay . project manager: it 's okay , but that 's yo m marketing: y not industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: mostly it 's it 's influenced by the fact that we did n't have enough resources to implement speech recognition . user interface: there 's industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause yeah , that gives you a seven , which ruins your your average . marketing: yeah . project manager: without that it would be like under it would n't yeah , it would be under two . so i think we have even with this it 's reasonable . marketing: woah . user interface: yeah , if we make it into a four , as in neutral , because we did n't implement it , so we ca n't say that we that it 's really not well implemented . we come out on a average of two one eighth . marketing: yeah . project manager: well i think it 's two is okay . user interface: so which is pretty w good . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , two is pretty good . user interface: it 's at least on the positive side . project manager: definitely . user interface: so we could definitely have done better if we 've had more resources , industrial designer: hmm , of course . marketing: yeah . user interface: but project manager: yeah , i think it 's probably i industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . project manager: i do admit that we d did miss a little or did n't sp did n't talk talk enough about the possibility of the lcd display . we could have used it more efficiently , marketing: yeah . project manager: we just did n't think of it that way . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , with . .. # user interface: true . project manager: so like i said , changing channels , everything hidden in your lcd display , so you just need the navigation buttons to do everything . marketing: the scale . industrial designer: but i think for this price , this is it 's really a reasonable product . project manager: i think we div i think we did very well , industrial designer: it 's a good product . project manager: uh ev even if you look at this score , we did quite well . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: oh . oh . yeah . marketing: with an lcd screen . project manager: it just looking for improvements what what you could have improved . so . industrial designer: but if pep people really want speech recognition , then they must be prepared to pu to pay more , because it 's can not be done for this . project manager: they sh they should get kids , and just stick 'em in tv and say change the channel . marketing: yeah , user interface: marketing: you can make 'em another one . industrial designer: hmm yeah . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: ah but for this price uh you can not ask that . project manager: i don ' think so . uh it 's just not it it 's not affordable . industrial designer: you can not th think of that project manager: or your sh you should lose the lcd screen probably , industrial designer: no , it 's not . project manager: but i think that 's i think the lcd screen is more worth than speech recognition . industrial designer: mm-hmm . oh it 's also more attractive . project manager: definitely . okay , that was that . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: so that 's the final product without the speakers , i guess . user interface: so did you project manager: let 's see , what was left in the the another one . hmm . yeah , marketing: project manager: we evaluate the product . general project , what 's i in for example , i thou i thought we were pretty creative in what we created . we took the whole new approach of making exchangeable cover for example , which i thought was pretty creative , because it was never never ever listed somewhere . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: favourite channel . project manager: well anyways . yeah , leadership is up to you . i mean perhaps i screwed up because i d put a put a speech recognition into it . but that 's not for me to decide . marketing: yeah , i know . yeah . project manager: i think we did pretty well as team-work though . because , yeah was very hard to work with one another if you can not communicate in the meantime , industrial designer: yes . hmm . project manager: because when i got the when i got the input for the financial results , initially of course i wanted to contact you . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah , you 're working separate . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: say , look , this is you 're doing the wrong thing , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: huh . project manager: you 're s you 're wasting your time now , because we 're implementing stuff that we can not afford . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah , yeah yeah . project manager: so it would be better if y if there was more communication between uh industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah yeah yeah . direct uh communication with yeah . project manager: because that 's that 's what would w you what you would normally do , either call or email someone . user interface: and we could share information which we received . project manager: so that was too bad industrial designer: hmm . project manager: con was impossible here anyways . . industrial designer: that 's the same thing that i had in the beginning . everybody was using materials that s i did n't have . project manager: it did n't have industrial designer: so project manager: or did n't knew what they costs or whatever . marketing: yeah . project manager: there was just too little information about what things actually cost and if you could use them . industrial designer: oh . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so that was a little unclear i suppose . i think a smartboard smartboard is pretty cool . i think uh s especially for design issues , it 's very easy just to give your give your thoughts a little it 's easier to share them . marketing: my handwriting is little bit yeah . yeah . user interface: although for actual design i 'd say the response time should be a little bit higher , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: it 's a little less it the response time is le it 's very bad . user interface: because industrial designer: hmm . project manager: it 's good to visualise everything , but i think the response time should could be a lot better . user interface: the digital pen was definitely better to draw my ideas and to further elaborate on that . marketing: but th that 's project manager: definitely . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , it 's true . marketing: yeah , okay . user interface: so industrial designer: but there 's uh also one problem with this i noticed . uh you have to finish a page before going to a n project manager: no , you do n't have to . no , you do n't . marketing: no . project manager: i jin i did n't check the finish button . industrial designer: oh . marketing: you can project manager: i just you just ditch it and you can copy it or whatever . marketing: done and then it 's okay . industrial designer: okay , i saw that uh project manager: uh only if you uh check the notes or press done . then it um then you can then it exports to word automatically . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: but it 's not necessary to check either one of those two . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: you can just preview your p you can just preview your page in the in the programme . industrial designer: but i made marketing: oh , okay . industrial designer: okay , but i made three pages marketing: okay , yeah . industrial designer: and they were not finished . and when the third one was finished , i wanted to download it and then it was not possible anymore , because you have to close all the pinnits uh the pages before going further . project manager: okay , before starting a ne a new page . marketing: okay . project manager: okay , that could be b . industrial designer: exactly . so we can not work on more than one page at same time . that 's not possible . marketing: oh . project manager: okay . industrial designer: you have to finish it completely , marketing: hmm . user interface: oh can you ? okay . industrial designer: then download it , it 's then start a new one . project manager: yeah , okay . industrial designer: that 's not very uh handy , project manager: that 's industrial designer: but if you know that , then it 's not a problem . project manager: yeah , it 's understandable , okay . any new ideas ? yeah , more communication between between uh that 's the thing i noticed , that communication is very um very important , industrial designer: marketing: important to mm project manager: because if you get new information , it 's essential f for the other team-mates to know that as soon as possible , because you would avoid making doing extra work , because you were doing extra work now uh m working on the on the speech recognition , you have limitation both on the technical on the d on the design side . marketing: yeah . project manager: so i think that could have been better . but that 's i think it 's more of a a setting here that you can not communicate than uh than somewhere else . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so user interface: yeah , well it could also possibly be well , is it a more real-time information base , so we can all see which information is available to one another . project manager: yeah , i think so . and l less p less spam probably . i 'm not sure i i 'm not sure you got spammed as well , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: but i get spammed like every t every two minutes there was a there was another email about master classes or something . industrial designer: ah . well project manager: so industrial designer: hmm . project manager: which were totally useless actually . i thought i should probably look into them , but they were all useless . so i just user interface: well , i personally did not have that , marketing: mm project manager: oh okay . user interface: but that 's probably your l description . project manager: user interface: but i also did n't not really . but still , you had that as well . is that we finished up the design industrial designer: huh . user interface: and then we checked the website , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then there was just extra information . marketing: yeah , after after five minutes , uh industrial designer: . user interface: there was a little delay in the bit of a c crucial delay . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: yeah . project manager: i did n't have any uh more information , it 's just always the same here . so that 's that 's kind of a industrial designer: mm . marketing: email uh project manager: it would change , but not for me . so i 'd i had no extra information to go on that one than what you give me actually . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: i could n't do any research myself industrial designer: hmm . project manager: or i see , that 's industrial designer: hmm . project manager: yeah , w i could have done a little extra work probably , then marketing: it 's project manager: but i was busy enough anyway . so industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah . project manager: any new ideas found ? or is that a 'cause uh yeah , it 's well , industrial designer: no . project manager: probably is . user interface: how much time do we have for this anyway ? project manager: i have no clue . that 's like oh , but it should i industrial designer: . project manager: if the project is evaluated and it was it was in b within budget , we should celebrate . so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay , marketing: industrial designer: bring out the beer . user interface: champagne . project manager: uh okay , think that 's about it . uh marketing: i want one for my own . project manager: i 'm not sure what we should still do though uh t let 's see what all your tasks were finished , right ? what you ha from your assistant . so let 's marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i have no more email . my coach is uh being very silent now . project manager: okay , marketing: yeah , project manager: i should i think i sh marketing: my personal coach i project manager: i still have the the total report to finish up . i think we took very little time now , because yeah , we 're in agreement , everything the design is okay . the one thing we missed though , we do n't have a product name . marketing: what industrial designer: no , project manager: how about you cook a how about you cook up a product name ? user interface: product name . industrial designer: we have n't think above about that . marketing: yeah , name . industrial designer: huh . it 's better than thi i think than a serial number . sony uh t_r_ something uh f means nothing to me . uh project manager: just marketing: or fruit name . project manager: oh , think of a catchy name . i 'll be working on this until the beep until it beeps . so industrial designer: like fruit names . marketing: fruit name or something like that . project manager: what ? fruit ? marketing: the banana remote or something . project manager: you do n't want it to resemble a banana . marketing: i do n't know . yeah , it 's the form of it . project manager: it 's not yellow anyway . user interface: the bana 'cause it 's not yellow anymore . project manager: it 's not yellow anymore . marketing: yeah oh , yeah . project manager: it is curved , but marketing: uh yeah . uh user interface: well , uh i was going for the r_c_ deluxe , but it 's not really a catchy name or anything , project manager: no , user interface: it 's more project manager: it 's industrial designer: uh at least it 's not something with numbers . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: numbers are so meaningless to the people . i mean marketing: yeah . user interface: something with our company name , marketing: that 's true . user interface: can we do anything with that ? industrial designer: . user interface: maybe there 's something on the website which will help us out . marketing: reaction , real reaction . project manager: industrial designer: real reaction . user interface: the reaction deluxe . project manager: real reaction future r_c_ . step into the future of of remote controlling your tv . user interface: is that a name or a c campaign ? marketing: project manager: no that 's a that 's a catchy slogan . user interface: yeah . project manager: control your remote control . user interface: or the the real reactor . industrial designer: real react . project manager: i go for future r_c_ probably . something like it 's short f industrial designer: the real reactor , i do n't find that uh that bad at all . marketing: . project manager: real reactor ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh that that 's user interface: you should write it down as a an option . industrial designer: because our name is real reaction . project manager: that makes me think of different products than a remote control really . marketing: . user interface: project manager: i 'm not sure . real reaction in a real marketing: zapping . the user interface: so that 's one option . project manager: real reactor . did n't notice . industrial designer: i 'm looking for things in the name . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so that the first three letters are s the same . r_e_a_ r_e_a_ . user interface: should i write the banana down or project manager: i take f marketing: yeah , sure . project manager: yeah , take a banana . user interface: sure ? marketing: the banana . project manager: hmm . marketing: remote . banana recei r_c_ . industrial designer: the triple r_ . real reaction remotes control . triple r_ . marketing: remote . user interface: well i marketing: r_ three c_ . user interface: uh do you mean it like industrial designer: ? marketing: r_ three c_ . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: you mean it like this ? industrial designer: yeah , that marketing: real reaction remote control . r_ three c_ . oh yeah . industrial designer: . . project manager: no , not like that . it should be it should be longer , because it 's not a product name that you f print on a box . industrial designer: i think triple r_ . project manager: just write out triple , like a word triple r_c_ , triple stripe oh . triple dash r_ dash s s c_ . industrial designer: does n't sound ? marketing: yeah , triple r_ . industrial designer: yeah . ah . marketing: triple r_c_ . the triple r_c_ , yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: r_ s r_ three c_ . . project manager: r_ dash c_ . user interface: dash c_ ? industrial designer: i think i like it like this more . project manager: dash . triple r_ or triple r_c_ ? user interface: like a c_ right now or a dash in a c_ ? marketing: triple r_ dash . project manager: how about do both ? user interface: project manager: sure if it looks stupid . uh i think that the the r_c_ together takes away the the the image of it 's a triple industrial designer: hmm . project manager: uh the first the first one looks like it 's a triple remote control , industrial designer: mm . marketing: that project manager: but it 's only a single remote control . and it 's especially on the triple r_ that 's important . the real reaction remote . industrial designer: i would huh . i would lose the c_ marketing: yeah , this yeah . industrial designer: and just name it triple r_ . user interface: is it triple r_c_s ? no . project manager: industrial designer: it sounds like uh thinking about two different things and combining it . marketing: triple remote . industrial designer: i would just say triple r_s triple r_ marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , triple r_ yeah , you can user interface: well , that 's another option . industrial designer: that 's also short , catchy . marketing: it 's okay . project manager: yeah , triple r_ . user interface: okay , so which ones are we going to scratch definitely ? marketing: the banana . banana . project manager: banana remote . industrial designer: banana . user interface: i say this one as well . marketing: yeah , the deluxe . project manager: i think we 're all in agreement about the triple r_ . industrial designer: . project manager: i think triple r_ is cool . industrial designer: yes . user interface: triple r_ ? marketing: the r triple r_ . project manager: and it looks cool when you print it in font , looks pretty cool . user interface: triple r_ it is . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: did you do now ? project manager: just like this just and you just print triple r_ , it looks does n't look bad , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 's short , it 's okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so have to write my report now , i guess . um um yeah , so we have everything . we have the product , we have the costs , industrial designer: yep . project manager: we have the possibility of everything . marketing: it ca n't work . that will not project manager: okay . i think it 's adjourned . retire to my lair and finish the report . that was a short meeting . but efficient though . industrial designer: mm-hmm . the boss is always the last one to go home . so project manager: probably . see . okay , user interface: project manager: goodbye . marketing: okay . industrial designer: see you in a minute . marketing: damn . i will write that one in a word uh document . industrial designer: okay . project manager: could you guys draw me a picture of the final design to put on the cover of the report ? user interface: yeah , sure . marketing: industrial designer: ca n't we take this one ? marketing: oh sh industrial designer: otherwise we have to do it all over again . marketing: um user interface: i do n't really know whether we can save it as a picture or no . industrial designer: is it okay if i try ? is that okay with you ? user interface: sure . marketing: yeah , okay , i will ask you when uh i need the information . industrial designer: i 'll put it back in a minute . marketing: so it 's oh . industrial designer: okay , it has been saving something , but where to i do n't know . marketing: uh oh . merge . industrial designer: oh , can i say exp yes , i can . marketing: sucks . industrial designer: export as j_ peg . . okay , can i not put this wherever i wants . my document is the wrong one , huh . marketing: yeah , but user interface: network places . marketing: i do n't know . smart no . industrial designer: . marketing: ma it 's maybe it 's not on the network of uh the rest . user interface: industrial designer: i do n't think so . marketing: that one is . . user interface: i would n't pick that one , no . industrial designer: document and settings . marketing: industrial designer: that 's a pity . that means that we have to gon na draw it again . are you gon na do that ? user interface: sure . industrial designer: okay . user interface: oh . industrial designer: that yes . okay . okay . okay . yes , that 's correct . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: no . oh , it 's export . marketing: oh yeah , . industrial designer: okay . marketing: can i see scores ? industrial designer: oh , of course . marketing: uh , one one , two threes , two industrial designer: sorry . marketing: okay , then we 'll overall , two points . yes . user interface: i see you later . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: mm .

`` triple rc '' made the product look like a triple remote control , but it was only a single remote control . in addition , the important part was triple r anyway , real reaction remote . therefore , they decided to drop c from this name , and just keep `` triple r '' .

summarize the decision of the discussion on the name chosen of the product . </s> project manager: can i close this ? user interface: uh we do n't have any changes , do we ? project manager: oh , okay . user interface: so no . project manager: there we go . okay , here we are again . detailed design oh , come on . well ah s forgot to insert the minutes , but it 's about the same thing we discussed before . uh could open that anyway , think . other design anyway , we took as we took w we took rubber as as the material last time . we also that you 're just busy with it . took the advanced chip to t uh implement the advanced features . well , we discussed the design , no sharp corners , we rounded it off , like you see on the other screen , which is fine . um we agreed that the colour should be b uh yellow and black . yellow in the back because it 's m trendy , more trendy than black anyway . so then we ca yeah . we agreed that we would implement both the lcd and speech recognition , but i 'll get to that in a moment . 'cause some changes in the finances have left us implications anyway . so so , like i said , we had no insight in finances , no prices , marketing: hmm . project manager: but we have 'em now , and it 's bad . anyway . we are oh . prototype presentation , well first you guys built the prototype . so you could could present that . but um let 's see what be handy to do . nee no , you just go ahead and present the w we 'll scrap it later because what ? industrial designer: i think it 's more or less the same as we had . user interface: it 's basically what we agreed upon , marketing: hmm ? project manager: oh that 's user interface: but just a little bit more specified . industrial designer: no much s project manager: has n't changed that much , huh ? industrial designer: no no no , not at all . project manager: i did n't expect anyway . you just coloured it . user interface: uh s final design . basically in what we discussed , cover and buttons will be made of rubber , yellow colour , black components , as you can see right over here . project manager: mm-hmm . i like the menu . user interface: we chose a different type of colour for the menu . a bit darker yellow so that it com really shows in this keypad . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: if you put them all black , it 's not really that good a contrast . project manager: and i suppose the the the yellow is not printed on the on the rubber . it 's it 's part of the rubber , i suppose . user interface: so probab project manager: i think that 's more i think that 's more durable anyway than printed on to user interface: yeah . that 's the be industrial designer: hmm . user interface: and it i guess it 's more easier to just paint it on the rubber industrial designer: yeah , of course . user interface: than to uh industrial designer: that 's uh the integration story again . marketing: mm yeah . okay . user interface: so we have it 's a bit round shaped , project manager: oh yeah . user interface: that 's what we had uh we chose the buttons to be uh teletext , okay button , favourite channel and the mute . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so that 's basically what we chose there . project manager: okay . user interface: if you have anything to add , please interrupt me . industrial designer: no , uh this is just a description of what we see there . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so user interface: oh . industrial designer: speaks for itself . marketing: yeah . user interface: that 's pretty much it . project manager: okay . now it 's my time to ruin everything . well , not ruin everything , but no , nah . user interface: oh sorry . project manager: finances , that 's what we have here , what you drew . we have battery power , we have advanced chips and the sam the sensor . the sample sensor and uh for speak recognition anyway . so which you see the which is de o one of the most expensive parts . so well , we have sin one curve , a design . rubber design . and we had a special colour . suppose yellow is a special colour . so just half a euro for you have pushbuttons and an lcd display . you have the total of seventeen euros in production cost , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: which is higher than the twelve and a half that we are permitted to use . so , marketing: hmm . project manager: easy . what do we scrap . well think i had the best solution that i came up with is just to s take out the speech recognition . industrial designer: i d user interface: i 'd say that too . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: because the lcd has more support on customer side . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: there are ninety one percent of uh the people , or something like that . but ninety percent who favour an lcd display , and only sixty percent that favour speech recognition . i think it 's also harder to user interface: uh we do n't really have a extra function with the speech sample , marketing: yeah . user interface: which you ca n't do with a normal remote control , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: . so i ju user interface: which people already do . so project manager: i took that out . so and so it 's still stuck with thirteen , so i had to take out the special colour i suppose . and , yeah , i did n't see anything else i could take out . yeah , i could take out the push-buttons , marketing: pushbut project manager: but we need those . so , generally what i came up with , in order to be cou to to have production cost of twelve and a half euros , spe scrap speech recognition industrial designer: huh . marketing: special colour , yeah . project manager: and the separate covers can account for the if people want it , we 'll just then we 'll do it in black . we 'll just deliver it in black , have the it has all the function that it 's supposed to have , and if you want it if you want the custom design , then you can buy the separate covers . user interface: well , project manager: you make it d orange or whatever you want . user interface: i 'd i tend to disagree with you on that , because the trend issue was a big issue when we started designing this . project manager: it was a big issue , but user interface: so ca n't we just basically extend it to thirteen ? project manager: i 'll just go back . uh let 's just let 's see what okay , let 's just see what we no , we we have to be under twelve and a half . marketing: yeah , it project manager: it it 's not marketing: the p project manager: uh the project is a no-go if we go over twelve and a half , industrial designer: okay , but there 's another problem . marketing: and the p project manager: so . user interface: okay . industrial designer: but there 's another problem . marketing: what industrial designer: if we take another cover , for instance black , then we also need another button frame , 'cause black and black does n't work obviously . project manager: i think you that 's what you were ass assigned to do really , to to see how b th both those work together . industrial designer: huh . huh . yeah . project manager: so i think yeah , it 's i think it 's y one of the it 's a good way to um to help people uh to make to keep the product trendy too . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: just keep you just make new covers for the for it , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: like we agreed before . industrial designer: right . i agree . project manager: and everything that 's left is is the basic function that uh that we want our product to have . because the expensive parts are in either the advanced chip . but we need that for the lcd display . user interface: yeah . we do . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: then again , we have the lcd display , which is also expensive . b yeah , but those go together . and yeah , we could take out the curve . industrial designer: or say let 's lose rubber , take plastic . user interface: we could take out a curve indeed . project manager: could we could take out the curve . is that an option ? industrial designer: yes . marketing: . project manager: for you ? industrial designer: although we are demolishing a little bit the style . marketing: but uh the and user interface: i think the colour is more important than the really the curve , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but project manager: user interface: because if you just end up with an entirely black remote control project manager: i think it 's it it does ruin it , marketing: yeah . the people project manager: but the fact that i t took that decision or t industrial designer: yeah . project manager: took this example actually , not really decision , but the example is because we do offer the um the possibility of adding your own custom covers . so you can change any colour you want . so it 's just you deliver a basic remote control with a possibility to change you into whatever you want . industrial designer: can we then not also uh change the material ? we take plastic for the basic cover project manager: you can take plastic , industrial designer: and project manager: but i d it 's something that 's stuck into my mind is that something that really came forward from the marketing research is that people like the the the the squishy feeling of the spongy feeling of the marketing: spongy , yeah . industrial designer: we can put those to the to the other covers . project manager: and it really makes it also makes it different from the existing remote controls , marketing: yeah . project manager: because they 're all plastic . marketing: and project manager: so which in in turn industrial designer: that 's true . project manager: rubber would increase durability industrial designer: but project manager: because it does n't break . industrial designer: okay . but what do you then suggest we 'd lose ? because we have to lose two things and i guess . project manager: i al like i said , i lost the speech recognition and i lost the special colour , marketing: but industrial designer: yes . project manager: which would make this black a black and grey . industrial designer: okay , and that 's enough ? project manager: yeah , that 's that that that 's enough , because user interface: so black and grey is okay . project manager: i guess those are the basic colours . marketing: but project manager: so oh . user interface: which we can fabricate , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: i think those are basic col they want to user interface: okay . marketing: the people want to pay for for it , so why why uh do we have to keep us uh uh um on the twelve and a half ? project manager: to ensure the profit . that that 's th that 's the order . we 're just uh we 're the project team and we got our our orders from the pro from the boss of our company marketing: yeah . project manager: which say we do n't wan na spend more than twelve fifty for this . marketing: but we can take a risk . project manager: but that 's not for our that 's not our decision to take . we have a budget of twelve fifty per product . user interface: no , we basically marketing: okay , yeah . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so user interface: we need to stick to that . project manager: stick that . i do n't think it 's really bad either . i mean if we we have the the backup of or the backup design thing marketing: i hope the people will like it , project manager: to have marketing: but project manager: i think they would do . th i think they do like because yo we you we agree upon that the that the the the cover thing was a nice idea , marketing: project manager: because p you could have all sort of designs while at the same time just manufacturing one product , one basic product which you could turn into any any taste you want . marketing: yeah . project manager: so i think it 's the best solution to make those cu custom covers for the design aspect industrial designer: perhaps we should make m marketing: yeah . project manager: and keep the functionality between of within the th the boundaries of the your f uh your budget . industrial designer: huh . marketing: the first sheet . project manager: so industrial designer: perhaps we should make clear to our customer that we had to do this to stay under the cost . and that 's uh they know that this is an option and that we had to drop the option to stay under the cost , that they know that . project manager: well i do n't think yeah . is it worth is it is it industrial designer: perhaps they decide tha user interface: but they do n't project manager: does it mean anything to the customer ? like , it like , we do n't care we do n't care that you had to industrial designer: of course . perhaps they uh no , but perhaps they think uh okay , the cover is such a nice idea , uh let 's that that then they uh that allow us to make some more costs . project manager: true , industrial designer: we ca we uh we can at least tell them that project manager: but we did we did n't get that . so i think it 's industrial designer: you do n't know that . project manager: it should either be a pack , maybe we sh that should be sold in in the s in stores with with a standard cover or something . user interface: well industrial designer: huh . project manager: but industrial designer: no , i 'm not uh talking about that cost but the one that g has given us the order to design this . we could at least m uh make it like this , like you said , project manager: they could , but uh industrial designer: and then tell them okay , we had to drop this and that , just that you know . it is an still an option , but not for this price . project manager: it 's an option , but yeah , it 's true . so actually uh it 's not that much of an increase , but yeah . we can not contact them . user interface: and if we project manager: it 's just the order that we got . industrial designer: exactly , project manager: so that 's what we got ta go with . industrial designer: but marketing: yeah . project manager: so it 's either one fi just just to get it f just to get it through final , it 's either turned into plastic , drop the squishy feel , make it make it more breakable , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um or turn it yellow . so it 's uh something we have to decide on . industrial designer: i 'd say lose the curve and the colour project manager: i say lose the curve . oh that 's true , industrial designer: and project manager: we could lose the c i forgot that , yeah , sorry . uh the curve . so user interface: so which curve is that ba project manager: that 's just this one just d this is the banana curve . user interface: that 's basically that curve . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so this would this would be straight . user interface: so we could u still have the comfort . marketing: yeah , that 's better . project manager: no , uh no , that would be a curve inside the thing , i guess . no , would ju then it would just be a straight remote . just like like that . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: which would , yeah , turn it into something far more ordinary . we could make it yellow then , user interface: i second that . project manager: but you second that , you second that we lose the curve . user interface: no , that it would turn out to be a pretty straight-forward remote control . project manager: okay , yeah . user interface: so that 's not really that marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: so i think it would be a good idea to keep the curve to separate it from the rest of the remote control world , so to speak . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so we keep the curve . so the only only solution is either to use the l y lose the yellow or lose the rubber . user interface: i would project manager: and i 'm in favour of keeping the rubber , because it has more more advantages than the colour yellow has . industrial designer: oh . i agree . user interface: yeah . i would say i would agree with you on the colour , industrial designer: no . marketing: yep . user interface: because that 's an extra option , an extra service we can deliver for a little bit of more money . project manager: mm-hmm . yeah , um user interface: so we can always do that . project manager: i guess people are willing to pay for that . so i think we can take that option and just with uh with the idea in the back of our head that you can customise your remote control . industrial designer: hmm ? marketing: yeah . project manager: so i think that would still make it a nice product . industrial designer: yes . project manager: okay , we 're final on that . so it 's too bad we ca n't make the whole super thing . but anyways we 're here . um yeah . user interface: which is basically what we discussed . project manager: this we discussed just now . that 's just now just we could just discuss how the project went . i mean , was kind of marketing: and i want to do that . project manager: i sort of expected that everything would turn out this way , but because you yeah , everything can not be for free . we did n't i think it was too bad we did n't have the financial info the last time . because that was i th user interface: yes , industrial designer: huh . project manager: it was really essential really user interface: we could have project manager: to ma because we spent uh uh entire stage designing a product of which we had no idea what it would cost . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so we just put something marketing: yeah . project manager: i think it 's really nor not in stroke with reality actually . marketing: project manager: so industrial designer: me too , i felt a bit blind throughout the project , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: because in the beginning i had no list of available materials , project manager: yeah , i think would have been . marketing: yeah . project manager: materials would be ok industrial designer: and then i d had not list of available c finances . marketing: but project manager: at least the last meeting i would have expected had to have that . industrial designer: so project manager: so i suppose marketing: let 's um see um project manager: yeah , let 's see if it sells . i mean i suppose this sells , because it 's very very extended . marketing: um project manager: but user interface: well i hope it sells . marketing: let 's uh project manager: i suppose it sells , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: because it 's good . marketing: oh . project manager: i mean it 's got everything for the for the reasonable price , because we did n't know what it 's gon na cost anyway . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: marketing: hmm . okay , let 's eval evaluate uh the product of us , our design . um i have some uh a method , a requirements and scale of . i uh will pre present uh some statements and we will decided together wha what if it 's true or false project manager: okay . marketing: and uh then we see uh if the requirements of the user are fulfilled or not . project manager: have been met , okay . marketing: and i will uh make a new blank sheet project manager: yeah . marketing: so so the buttons , the look and feel . i thought it was okay , but the advanced uh settings , um screen , audio and channel project manager: they 're stuck under menu . user interface: which are basically accessible through the menu button . marketing: we are not project manager: for the menu . i think those are totally met , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: because we we really took them for the they have the feel they want , marketing: oh the menu button is it . user interface: yeah . marketing: hi oh , okay . project manager: they have the simplicity they want . marketing: then it 's all uh s project manager: i think it 's very uh very well met . either two or one maybe . industrial designer: one . marketing: it 's true . project manager: i think we took that everything they wanted into consideration . marketing: yeah . project manager: so it could either be a two or a one . marketing: so d oh wait . uh pen . project manager: one and a half . user interface: which is not an option . marketing: the p oh yeah , project manager: just create our own option . marketing: it 's red , okay , but look and feel is everybo it 's true . project manager: yeah . marketing: so anyone ? and the next one uh yeah , when it 's lost uh you can find it . project manager: it 's perfect . even for deaf people , yeah . marketing: it 's project manager: it 's i do n't think it 's perfect , but we did everything possible to to get it back . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: to make it that way , yeah . project manager: because if it 's stuck in you couch , you can see the light . maybe you can hear it . but i mean we tried , marketing: yeah . project manager: so i think it that 's that deserves a one . definitely . marketing: and it 's and it 's yeah . to . that 's okay then . and the next one . how is that ? uh w we had we do n't have an uh manual , industrial designer: manual . project manager: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think the lcd display could be a little bit more difficult then a normal remote control , marketing: but i think that 's a part of it . but project manager: i 'd use an remote control . user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: but then again , it 's for young people . so marketing: yeah , an lcd , it tells a lot about uh user interface: and it 's pretty straight-forward , industrial designer: yeah , i th project manager: it 's pretty straight-forward , uh-huh . user interface: you have a navigation no keys to navigate through the lcd menus . industrial designer: exactly . no , that 's true . i think it wo n't be a big problem . marketing: yeah . user interface: so marketing: so it 's a one user interface: one i d no , marketing: or a i do n't know . user interface: actu project manager: i think but we did n't even marketing: for the advanced uh settings . project manager: there was no issue on making a manual actually . we did n't really discuss it , marketing: no okay , that uh that 's true . project manager: but i do n't think it takes no , it really does does n't take time to learn , i think . we took it s it 's so easy , user interface: no , it it is pretty straight-forward . marketing: oh , so it project manager: we have so little button , everything speaks for itself really . so i think that 's industrial designer: ah . um project manager: yeah , we did n't it 's either two or one , i guess . marketing: takes no ti project manager: maybe it 's a two , because d uh the lcd is a little is a little new and there is there are some option hidden under the menu button . industrial designer: with the more important functions on . marketing: yeah . project manager: so i might make this a two instead of a one , i guess . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: and the lcd , you have to see it . project manager: so just make that a two . marketing: um mm oh , it 's a little bit learning . okay . uh yeah it 's uh a little bit same . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: but it tells you or not ? project manager: you can use the lcd in a good way . i think so . i think it 's perfect , the w where it is , what it can do , if it useful . i think so . marketing: but wha w industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: oh , yeah . what are we uh displaying on the lcd screen ? just uh only the channels and or industrial designer: the menus uh things like brightness and uh those kind of things we 've put in the menu , marketing: what uh ? industrial designer: because we have no buttons for those . user interface: well , basically the menu options indeed . but marketing: oh , in the lcd screen . project manager: no , y i mean in the lcd screen , the small screen . what does it display ? industrial designer: yes . marketing: and for a channel selection , uh or that 's not project manager: well i thought it was i thought it was i thought that people wanted previews on their i 'm not sure if that even possible , marketing: yeah , i thought i thought too project manager: but marketing: but project manager: 'cause it 's this requires a quite quite a bit of band-width . marketing: yeah . project manager: i do n't think it 's possible really . but the they did n't really define in what should be used for . user interface: no . marketing: maybe a tv guide or something in your lcd uh project manager: but i think in for example like tv guides , i think that 's that th that you can transmit through it and everything . just for extra information on your programmes . industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah . yeah , it must be clear then what what what for we use it . project manager: but also things like like like menus or p how about preferences of your uh with configuring your remote control for favourite your favourite channel for example , how do you configure that . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so that could be done by lcd display . i think it 's good . no , maybe it 's not a one because it 's we 're not using it perfectly . we did n't give it i do n't thing over-discussing . now we gave it enough thought though . i think we d should just lower this . marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe maybe it 's a three though . we could 've used it more effectively probably . marketing: yeah , indeed . project manager: marketing: so everybody 's agree with an uh three on it , project manager: yeah , we are using it , user interface: yeah . two or three . industrial designer: yes . marketing: it 's project manager: but it 's not marketing: w project manager: it 's not poorly used , but it 's not efficiently used , i think . user interface: so marketing: yeah . project manager: we could have ev even lost the selection button and uh done everything via lcd selection . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's now it 's just extra to illustrate im uh extra features , marketing: yeah , i project manager: but okay . marketing: a three . industrial designer: nah , it 's not really only an extra . user interface: you can seven . industrial designer: no menus . marketing: ah , nothing , that 's a seven . uh that 's uh industrial designer: think about project manager: can you talk to remote control ? user interface: or we could say it project manager: well , it ca n't talk anymore . so we scrap that . marketing: yeah . user interface: or we could say neutral , project manager: oh yeah user interface: we 'cause we scratched the project manager: just to be a prick , user interface: c project manager: but of course you can talk to your remote control , it does n't do anything . marketing: yeah yeah yeah yeah . project manager: but you c you can talk to it . marketing: not with the speech recognition . uh yeah , all the trends and no colours uh anymore . so project manager: well , we did take everything into consideration of course . uh the shape i shape is i marketing: yeah , uh um only in the curves . project manager: i think we yeah , i think that 's okay . marketing: but the colours , we do n't have special colours on it . user interface: no , we do n't have the colour . project manager: yeah , special co but we took into consideration the fact that it 's customisable user interface: so i marketing: yeah , project manager: to the fashi marketing: but we user interface: yes , but the end product so industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah , we do n't have it , so d project manager: we do n't have it we do have it , marketing: in the end product . project manager: it 's just sold as a package . industrial designer: but m project manager: it does it 's not part of the basic product . industrial designer: changing covers is also trend that we followed . project manager: it that that 's what i call trendy . i mean the shape is trendy . user interface: project manager: the the sh the the functions are trendy . it 's just the colours that are not supporting the basic model . because you ha marketing: now project manager: it 's just not affordable at the moment . user interface: maybe we should go with a two then , marketing: but it 's not a one . user interface: because it 's not perfect , because we ca n't do it initially , marketing: yeah . user interface: but we project manager: it 's possible , industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: oh . project manager: but you have to pay extra for the for the possibility of having it in a f a different colour . marketing: oh well oops . project manager: marketing: oh it 's a two , user interface: yeah . marketing: right ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: on the last one . uh that n that 's all . project manager: overall score . user interface: overall score . marketing: overall . it 's um project manager: one two three . sixteen . marketing: ten , sixteen three uh two project manager: two two point some two point something . marketing: two point seven or something like that . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: i do n't know why . user interface: ten , sixteen , divided by project manager: . industrial designer: six . marketing: six . user interface: is two two third . project manager: two and two thirds . marketing: um so project manager: marketing: we can say it 's it 's the product is it 's okay . project manager: it 's okay , but that 's yo m marketing: y not industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: mostly it 's it 's influenced by the fact that we did n't have enough resources to implement speech recognition . user interface: there 's industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause yeah , that gives you a seven , which ruins your your average . marketing: yeah . project manager: without that it would be like under it would n't yeah , it would be under two . so i think we have even with this it 's reasonable . marketing: woah . user interface: yeah , if we make it into a four , as in neutral , because we did n't implement it , so we ca n't say that we that it 's really not well implemented . we come out on a average of two one eighth . marketing: yeah . project manager: well i think it 's two is okay . user interface: so which is pretty w good . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , two is pretty good . user interface: it 's at least on the positive side . project manager: definitely . user interface: so we could definitely have done better if we 've had more resources , industrial designer: hmm , of course . marketing: yeah . user interface: but project manager: yeah , i think it 's probably i industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . project manager: i do admit that we d did miss a little or did n't sp did n't talk talk enough about the possibility of the lcd display . we could have used it more efficiently , marketing: yeah . project manager: we just did n't think of it that way . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , with . .. # user interface: true . project manager: so like i said , changing channels , everything hidden in your lcd display , so you just need the navigation buttons to do everything . marketing: the scale . industrial designer: but i think for this price , this is it 's really a reasonable product . project manager: i think we div i think we did very well , industrial designer: it 's a good product . project manager: uh ev even if you look at this score , we did quite well . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: oh . oh . yeah . marketing: with an lcd screen . project manager: it just looking for improvements what what you could have improved . so . industrial designer: but if pep people really want speech recognition , then they must be prepared to pu to pay more , because it 's can not be done for this . project manager: they sh they should get kids , and just stick 'em in tv and say change the channel . marketing: yeah , user interface: marketing: you can make 'em another one . industrial designer: hmm yeah . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: ah but for this price uh you can not ask that . project manager: i don ' think so . uh it 's just not it it 's not affordable . industrial designer: you can not th think of that project manager: or your sh you should lose the lcd screen probably , industrial designer: no , it 's not . project manager: but i think that 's i think the lcd screen is more worth than speech recognition . industrial designer: mm-hmm . oh it 's also more attractive . project manager: definitely . okay , that was that . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: so that 's the final product without the speakers , i guess . user interface: so did you project manager: let 's see , what was left in the the another one . hmm . yeah , marketing: project manager: we evaluate the product . general project , what 's i in for example , i thou i thought we were pretty creative in what we created . we took the whole new approach of making exchangeable cover for example , which i thought was pretty creative , because it was never never ever listed somewhere . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: favourite channel . project manager: well anyways . yeah , leadership is up to you . i mean perhaps i screwed up because i d put a put a speech recognition into it . but that 's not for me to decide . marketing: yeah , i know . yeah . project manager: i think we did pretty well as team-work though . because , yeah was very hard to work with one another if you can not communicate in the meantime , industrial designer: yes . hmm . project manager: because when i got the when i got the input for the financial results , initially of course i wanted to contact you . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah , you 're working separate . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: say , look , this is you 're doing the wrong thing , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: huh . project manager: you 're s you 're wasting your time now , because we 're implementing stuff that we can not afford . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah , yeah yeah . project manager: so it would be better if y if there was more communication between uh industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah yeah yeah . direct uh communication with yeah . project manager: because that 's that 's what would w you what you would normally do , either call or email someone . user interface: and we could share information which we received . project manager: so that was too bad industrial designer: hmm . project manager: con was impossible here anyways . . industrial designer: that 's the same thing that i had in the beginning . everybody was using materials that s i did n't have . project manager: it did n't have industrial designer: so project manager: or did n't knew what they costs or whatever . marketing: yeah . project manager: there was just too little information about what things actually cost and if you could use them . industrial designer: oh . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so that was a little unclear i suppose . i think a smartboard smartboard is pretty cool . i think uh s especially for design issues , it 's very easy just to give your give your thoughts a little it 's easier to share them . marketing: my handwriting is little bit yeah . yeah . user interface: although for actual design i 'd say the response time should be a little bit higher , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: it 's a little less it the response time is le it 's very bad . user interface: because industrial designer: hmm . project manager: it 's good to visualise everything , but i think the response time should could be a lot better . user interface: the digital pen was definitely better to draw my ideas and to further elaborate on that . marketing: but th that 's project manager: definitely . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , it 's true . marketing: yeah , okay . user interface: so industrial designer: but there 's uh also one problem with this i noticed . uh you have to finish a page before going to a n project manager: no , you do n't have to . no , you do n't . marketing: no . project manager: i jin i did n't check the finish button . industrial designer: oh . marketing: you can project manager: i just you just ditch it and you can copy it or whatever . marketing: done and then it 's okay . industrial designer: okay , i saw that uh project manager: uh only if you uh check the notes or press done . then it um then you can then it exports to word automatically . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: but it 's not necessary to check either one of those two . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: you can just preview your p you can just preview your page in the in the programme . industrial designer: but i made marketing: oh , okay . industrial designer: okay , but i made three pages marketing: okay , yeah . industrial designer: and they were not finished . and when the third one was finished , i wanted to download it and then it was not possible anymore , because you have to close all the pinnits uh the pages before going further . project manager: okay , before starting a ne a new page . marketing: okay . project manager: okay , that could be b . industrial designer: exactly . so we can not work on more than one page at same time . that 's not possible . marketing: oh . project manager: okay . industrial designer: you have to finish it completely , marketing: hmm . user interface: oh can you ? okay . industrial designer: then download it , it 's then start a new one . project manager: yeah , okay . industrial designer: that 's not very uh handy , project manager: that 's industrial designer: but if you know that , then it 's not a problem . project manager: yeah , it 's understandable , okay . any new ideas ? yeah , more communication between between uh that 's the thing i noticed , that communication is very um very important , industrial designer: marketing: important to mm project manager: because if you get new information , it 's essential f for the other team-mates to know that as soon as possible , because you would avoid making doing extra work , because you were doing extra work now uh m working on the on the speech recognition , you have limitation both on the technical on the d on the design side . marketing: yeah . project manager: so i think that could have been better . but that 's i think it 's more of a a setting here that you can not communicate than uh than somewhere else . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: so user interface: yeah , well it could also possibly be well , is it a more real-time information base , so we can all see which information is available to one another . project manager: yeah , i think so . and l less p less spam probably . i 'm not sure i i 'm not sure you got spammed as well , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: but i get spammed like every t every two minutes there was a there was another email about master classes or something . industrial designer: ah . well project manager: so industrial designer: hmm . project manager: which were totally useless actually . i thought i should probably look into them , but they were all useless . so i just user interface: well , i personally did not have that , marketing: mm project manager: oh okay . user interface: but that 's probably your l description . project manager: user interface: but i also did n't not really . but still , you had that as well . is that we finished up the design industrial designer: huh . user interface: and then we checked the website , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then there was just extra information . marketing: yeah , after after five minutes , uh industrial designer: . user interface: there was a little delay in the bit of a c crucial delay . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: yeah . project manager: i did n't have any uh more information , it 's just always the same here . so that 's that 's kind of a industrial designer: mm . marketing: email uh project manager: it would change , but not for me . so i 'd i had no extra information to go on that one than what you give me actually . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: i could n't do any research myself industrial designer: hmm . project manager: or i see , that 's industrial designer: hmm . project manager: yeah , w i could have done a little extra work probably , then marketing: it 's project manager: but i was busy enough anyway . so industrial designer: hmm . marketing: yeah . project manager: any new ideas found ? or is that a 'cause uh yeah , it 's well , industrial designer: no . project manager: probably is . user interface: how much time do we have for this anyway ? project manager: i have no clue . that 's like oh , but it should i industrial designer: . project manager: if the project is evaluated and it was it was in b within budget , we should celebrate . so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay , marketing: industrial designer: bring out the beer . user interface: champagne . project manager: uh okay , think that 's about it . uh marketing: i want one for my own . project manager: i 'm not sure what we should still do though uh t let 's see what all your tasks were finished , right ? what you ha from your assistant . so let 's marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i have no more email . my coach is uh being very silent now . project manager: okay , marketing: yeah , project manager: i should i think i sh marketing: my personal coach i project manager: i still have the the total report to finish up . i think we took very little time now , because yeah , we 're in agreement , everything the design is okay . the one thing we missed though , we do n't have a product name . marketing: what industrial designer: no , project manager: how about you cook a how about you cook up a product name ? user interface: product name . industrial designer: we have n't think above about that . marketing: yeah , name . industrial designer: huh . it 's better than thi i think than a serial number . sony uh t_r_ something uh f means nothing to me . uh project manager: just marketing: or fruit name . project manager: oh , think of a catchy name . i 'll be working on this until the beep until it beeps . so industrial designer: like fruit names . marketing: fruit name or something like that . project manager: what ? fruit ? marketing: the banana remote or something . project manager: you do n't want it to resemble a banana . marketing: i do n't know . yeah , it 's the form of it . project manager: it 's not yellow anyway . user interface: the bana 'cause it 's not yellow anymore . project manager: it 's not yellow anymore . marketing: yeah oh , yeah . project manager: it is curved , but marketing: uh yeah . uh user interface: well , uh i was going for the r_c_ deluxe , but it 's not really a catchy name or anything , project manager: no , user interface: it 's more project manager: it 's industrial designer: uh at least it 's not something with numbers . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: numbers are so meaningless to the people . i mean marketing: yeah . user interface: something with our company name , marketing: that 's true . user interface: can we do anything with that ? industrial designer: . user interface: maybe there 's something on the website which will help us out . marketing: reaction , real reaction . project manager: industrial designer: real reaction . user interface: the reaction deluxe . project manager: real reaction future r_c_ . step into the future of of remote controlling your tv . user interface: is that a name or a c campaign ? marketing: project manager: no that 's a that 's a catchy slogan . user interface: yeah . project manager: control your remote control . user interface: or the the real reactor . industrial designer: real react . project manager: i go for future r_c_ probably . something like it 's short f industrial designer: the real reactor , i do n't find that uh that bad at all . marketing: . project manager: real reactor ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh that that 's user interface: you should write it down as a an option . industrial designer: because our name is real reaction . project manager: that makes me think of different products than a remote control really . marketing: . user interface: project manager: i 'm not sure . real reaction in a real marketing: zapping . the user interface: so that 's one option . project manager: real reactor . did n't notice . industrial designer: i 'm looking for things in the name . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so that the first three letters are s the same . r_e_a_ r_e_a_ . user interface: should i write the banana down or project manager: i take f marketing: yeah , sure . project manager: yeah , take a banana . user interface: sure ? marketing: the banana . project manager: hmm . marketing: remote . banana recei r_c_ . industrial designer: the triple r_ . real reaction remotes control . triple r_ . marketing: remote . user interface: well i marketing: r_ three c_ . user interface: uh do you mean it like industrial designer: ? marketing: r_ three c_ . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: you mean it like this ? industrial designer: yeah , that marketing: real reaction remote control . r_ three c_ . oh yeah . industrial designer: . . project manager: no , not like that . it should be it should be longer , because it 's not a product name that you f print on a box . industrial designer: i think triple r_ . project manager: just write out triple , like a word triple r_c_ , triple stripe oh . triple dash r_ dash s s c_ . industrial designer: does n't sound ? marketing: yeah , triple r_ . industrial designer: yeah . ah . marketing: triple r_c_ . the triple r_c_ , yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: r_ s r_ three c_ . . project manager: r_ dash c_ . user interface: dash c_ ? industrial designer: i think i like it like this more . project manager: dash . triple r_ or triple r_c_ ? user interface: like a c_ right now or a dash in a c_ ? marketing: triple r_ dash . project manager: how about do both ? user interface: project manager: sure if it looks stupid . uh i think that the the r_c_ together takes away the the the image of it 's a triple industrial designer: hmm . project manager: uh the first the first one looks like it 's a triple remote control , industrial designer: mm . marketing: that project manager: but it 's only a single remote control . and it 's especially on the triple r_ that 's important . the real reaction remote . industrial designer: i would huh . i would lose the c_ marketing: yeah , this yeah . industrial designer: and just name it triple r_ . user interface: is it triple r_c_s ? no . project manager: industrial designer: it sounds like uh thinking about two different things and combining it . marketing: triple remote . industrial designer: i would just say triple r_s triple r_ marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , triple r_ yeah , you can user interface: well , that 's another option . industrial designer: that 's also short , catchy . marketing: it 's okay . project manager: yeah , triple r_ . user interface: okay , so which ones are we going to scratch definitely ? marketing: the banana . banana . project manager: banana remote . industrial designer: banana . user interface: i say this one as well . marketing: yeah , the deluxe . project manager: i think we 're all in agreement about the triple r_ . industrial designer: . project manager: i think triple r_ is cool . industrial designer: yes . user interface: triple r_ ? marketing: the r triple r_ . project manager: and it looks cool when you print it in font , looks pretty cool . user interface: triple r_ it is . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: did you do now ? project manager: just like this just and you just print triple r_ , it looks does n't look bad , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 's short , it 's okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so have to write my report now , i guess . um um yeah , so we have everything . we have the product , we have the costs , industrial designer: yep . project manager: we have the possibility of everything . marketing: it ca n't work . that will not project manager: okay . i think it 's adjourned . retire to my lair and finish the report . that was a short meeting . but efficient though . industrial designer: mm-hmm . the boss is always the last one to go home . so project manager: probably . see . okay , user interface: project manager: goodbye . marketing: okay . industrial designer: see you in a minute . marketing: damn . i will write that one in a word uh document . industrial designer: okay . project manager: could you guys draw me a picture of the final design to put on the cover of the report ? user interface: yeah , sure . marketing: industrial designer: ca n't we take this one ? marketing: oh sh industrial designer: otherwise we have to do it all over again . marketing: um user interface: i do n't really know whether we can save it as a picture or no . industrial designer: is it okay if i try ? is that okay with you ? user interface: sure . marketing: yeah , okay , i will ask you when uh i need the information . industrial designer: i 'll put it back in a minute . marketing: so it 's oh . industrial designer: okay , it has been saving something , but where to i do n't know . marketing: uh oh . merge . industrial designer: oh , can i say exp yes , i can . marketing: sucks . industrial designer: export as j_ peg . . okay , can i not put this wherever i wants . my document is the wrong one , huh . marketing: yeah , but user interface: network places . marketing: i do n't know . smart no . industrial designer: . marketing: ma it 's maybe it 's not on the network of uh the rest . user interface: industrial designer: i do n't think so . marketing: that one is . . user interface: i would n't pick that one , no . industrial designer: document and settings . marketing: industrial designer: that 's a pity . that means that we have to gon na draw it again . are you gon na do that ? user interface: sure . industrial designer: okay . user interface: oh . industrial designer: that yes . okay . okay . okay . yes , that 's correct . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: no . oh , it 's export . marketing: oh yeah , . industrial designer: okay . marketing: can i see scores ? industrial designer: oh , of course . marketing: uh , one one , two threes , two industrial designer: sorry . marketing: okay , then we 'll overall , two points . yes . user interface: i see you later . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: mm .

they agreed to cross out 'banana remote ' , 'the deluxe ' from the options . they all agreed on the 'triple r ' without arguments , because the group thought it looked cool when it was printed out . in addition , it was short and catchy .

summarize the meeting </s> grad a: ok , this is one channel . can you uh , say your name and talk into your mike one at a time ? phd c: this is eric on channel three , i believe . grad a: ok . uh , i do n't think it 's on there , jane . undergrad d: tasting one two three , tasting . postdoc e: ok , this is jane on channel five . grad a: uh , i still do n't see you jane . postdoc e: oh , darn , what am i doing wrong ? undergrad d: can you see me on channel four ? really ? grad a: yeah , i s undergrad d: my lucky day . postdoc e: uh , screen no , it is , oh , maybe it just warmed up ? grad a: no . postdoc e: oh , darn , can you ca n't see channel five yet ? grad a: uh , well , the mike is n't close enough to your mouth , so . postdoc e: oh , this would be k ok , is that better ? grad a: s uh , try speaking loudly , undergrad d: i like the high quality labelling . grad a: so , postdoc e: hello , grad a: ok , good . undergrad d: david , can we borrow your labelling machine to improve the quality of the labelling a little bit here ? postdoc e: hello . alright . grad a: thank you . phd b: one t undergrad d: how how many are there , one to five ? phd b: one five , yeah . undergrad d: yeah , please . postdoc e: would you like to join the meeting ? grad a: well , we do n't wan na renumber them , postdoc e: i bet grad a: cuz we 've already have like , forms filled out with the numbers on them . so , let 's keep the same numbers on them . phd b: yeah , ok , that 's a good idea . grad a: ok , dan , are you on ? phd b: i 'm on i 'm on two and i should be on . grad a: good . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: want to join the meeting , dave ? do we do do we have a spare , uh grad a: and i 'm getting lots of responses on different ones , so i assume the various and assorted p z ms are on . undergrad d: we ' r we 're we ' r this is this this is a meeting meeting . postdoc e: this is abou we 're we 're mainly being taped but we 're gon na talk about , uh , transcription for the m future meeting meetings . grad a: stuff . yeah , this is not something you need to attend . so . postdoc e: yeah . e ok . phd c: you 're always having one of those days , dave . postdoc e: y you 'd be welcome . grad a: besides , i do n't want anyone who has a weird accent . postdoc e: you 'd be welcome . grad a: right , dan ? undergrad d: so , i do n't understand if it 's neck mounted you do n't get very good performance . phd c: it 's not neck mounted . it 's supposed to be h head mounted . undergrad d: yeah . it it should be head mounted . right ? grad a: well , then put it on your head . phd b: i do n't know . phd c: right . grad a: what are you doing ? undergrad d: cuz when you do this , you can rouww - rouww . postdoc e: why did n't i you were saying that but i could hear you really well on the on the transcription on the , uh , tape . grad a: well , i m i would prefer that people wore it on their head phd b: i i do n't know . phd c: i grad a: but they were complaining about it . because it 's not it does n't go over the ears . undergrad d: why ? postdoc e: it 's badly designed . grad a: it 's very badly designed so it 's phd b: it 's very badly designed ? undergrad d: what do you mean it does n't go over the ears ? phd b: why ? it 's not s it 's not supposed to cover up your ears . grad a: yeah but , there 's nowhere to put the pad so it 's comfortable . phd b: i mean , it 's only badly postdoc e: so that 's what you 're d he 's got it on his temples so it cuts off his circulation . phd b: oh , that 's strange . phd c: yeah , that 's that 's what i have . grad a: and it feels so good that way . phd c: it feels so good when i stop . grad a: so i i again would like to do some digits . undergrad d: somebody wan na postdoc e: try it . grad a: um . undergrad d: somebody wan na close the door ? grad a: sure . phd b: ok . postdoc e: we could do it with noise . grad a: so let me phd c: you 're always doing digits . grad a: well , you know , i 'm just that sort of digit - y g sorta guy . ok . so this is adam . postdoc e: uh , this is the same one i had before . grad a: i doubt it . phd b: it 's still the same words . grad a: i think we 're session four by the way . or m it might be five . undergrad d: psss ! oh , that 's good . postdoc e: no grad a: i did n't bring my previous thing . phd b: we did n't postdoc e: now , just to be sure , the numbers on the back , this is the channel ? phd b: that 's the microphone number . postdoc e: that 's the microphone number . grad a: yeah , d leave the channel blank . postdoc e: uh - oh . ok , good . undergrad d: but number has to be ? so we have to look up the number . postdoc e: five grad a: right . undergrad d: ok , good . postdoc e: good . ok . well , this is jane , on mike number five . um . i just start ? do i need to say anything more ? grad a: uh , transcript number . phd b: transcript number phd c: ok , this is eric on microphone number three , undergrad d: this is beck on mike four . grad a: thanks . should i turn off the vu meter dan ? do you think that makes any difference ? phd b: oh , god . no , let me do it . grad a: why ? are you gon na do something other than hit `` quit `` ? phd b: no , but i 'm gon na look at the uh , logs as well . grad a: oh . should have done it before . postdoc e: uh , you said turn off the what ? grad a: the vu meter which tells you what the levels on the various mikes are and there was one hypothesis that perhaps that the act of recording the vu meter was one of the things that contributed to the errors . postdoc e: oh . oh , i see . undergrad d: yeah , but eric , uh , you did n't think that was a reasonable hypothesis , right ? postdoc e: i see . grad a: that was me , undergrad d: oh , i 'm sorry y grad a: i thought that was undergrad d: that was malarkey . grad a: well , the only reason that could be is if the driver has a bug . right ? because the machine just is n't very heavily loaded . undergrad d: no chance of that . grad a: no chance of that . just because it 's beta . look ok ? phd b: yeah , there there there was there was a there was a bug . there was a glitch last time we ran . undergrad d: are - are yo are you recording where the table mikes are by the way ? phd b: no . undergrad d: do you know which channels grad a: yeah , we usually do that . phd b: no , we do n't . grad a: yeah . phd b: but we we ought to st we ought to standardize . undergrad d: why not ? phd b: i think , uh , i s i spoke to somebody , morgan , { comment } about that . i think i think we should put mar well , no , w we can do that . undergrad d: why do n't you just do this ? grad a: i mean , that 's what we 've done before . phd b: i know what they they 're they 're four , three , two , one . in order now . undergrad d: four . phd b: three , two , and one . undergrad d: three . phd b: but i think i think we should put them in standard positions . i think we should make little marks on the table top . grad a: which means we need to move this thing , and sorta decide how we 're actually going to do things . phd b: so that we can put them postdoc e: oh , ok . phd b: i guess that 's the point . grad a: so . phd b: it 'll be a lot easier if we have a if we have them permanently in place or something like that . grad a: right . postdoc e: i do wish there were big booms coming down from the ceiling . phd b: you do ? postdoc e: yeah . phd c: would it make you feel more important ? grad a: mmm . postdoc e: yeah , yeah , yeah . phd c: i see . undergrad d: wait till the projector gets installed . postdoc e: you know . grad a: that 'll work . postdoc e: oh , that 'll be good . grad a: that 'll work . phd b: oh , gosh . undergrad d: cuz it 's gon na hang down , make noise . postdoc e: ok . phd b: when 's it gon na be installed ? postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: well , it depends on phd b: i see . undergrad d: is this b is this being recorded ? grad a: that 's right . undergrad d: uh , i think lila actually is almost getting r pretty close to even getting ready to put out the purchase order . phd b: ok . cool . undergrad d: i handed it off to her about a month ago . phd b: i see . grad a: ok , so , topic of this meeting is i wan na talk a little bit about transcription . um , i 've looked a little bit into commercial transcription services and jane has been working on doing transcription . uh , and so we wan wan na decide what we 're gon na do with that and then get an update on the electronics , and then , uh , maybe also talk a little bit about some infrastructure and tools , and so on . um , you know , eventually we 're probably gon na wan na distribute this thing and we should decide how we 're gon na how we 're gon na handle some of these factors . so . phd b: distribute what ? grad a: hmm ? phd b: the data ? grad a: right . right . i mean , so we 're we 're collecting a corpus and i think it 's gon na be generally useful . i mean , it seems like it 's not a corpus which is uh , has been done before . and so i think people will be interested in having having it , phd b: oh . grad a: and so we will undergrad d: u using , like , audio d v ds or something like that ? grad a: excuse me ? phd b: yes . undergrad d: audio d v grad a: well , or something . yeah , audio d v c ds , undergrad d: or t grad a: you know . undergrad d: yeah . tapes . grad a: and and so how we do we distribute the transcripts , how do we distribute the audio files , how do we how do we just do all that infrastructure ? phd c: well , i think i mean , for that particular issue ther there are known sources where people go to to find these kind of things like the ldc for instance . postdoc e: yeah , grad a: right , but but so should we do it in the same format as ldc postdoc e: that 's right . grad a: and what does that mean to what we 've done already ? phd b: right . the it 's not so much the actu the logistics of distribution are secondary to preparing the data in a suitable form for distribution . phd c: right . grad a: right . so , uh , as it is , it 's sort of a ad - hoc combination of stuff dan set and stuff i set up , which we may wan na make a little more formal . so . phd b: and the other thing is that , um , university of washington may want to start recording meetings as well , grad a: right . phd b: in which case w w we 'll have to decide what we 've actually got so that we can give them a copy . grad a: that 's right . undergrad d: a field trip . grad a: yeah . i was actually thinking i would n't mind spending the summer up there . that would be kind of fun . phd b: oh , really ? grad a: yeah . visit my friends and spend some time phd b: different for you . yes . grad a: well , and then also i have a bunch of stuff for doing this digits . so i have a bunch of scripts with x waves , and some perl scripts , and other things that make it really easy to extract out and align where the digits are . and if u d uw 's going to do the same thing i think it 's worth while for them to do these digits tasks as well . undergrad d: mm - hmm . grad a: and what i 've done is pretty ad - hoc , um , so we might wan na change it over to something a little more standard . phd c: hmm . grad a: you know , stm files , or xml , or something . undergrad d: an - and there 's interest up there ? grad a: what 's that ? undergrad d: there 's interest up there ? grad a: well they they certainly wan na collect more data . and so they 're applying , i think i b is that right ? something like that . phd b: i do n't know . grad a: um , for some more money to do more data . so we were planning to do like thirty or forty hours worth of meetings . they wan na do an additional hundred or so hours . so , they want a very large data set . um , but of course we 're not gon na do that if we do n't get money . so . phd b: i see . grad a: and i would like that just to get a disjoint speaker set and a disjoint room . i mean , one of the things morgan and i were talking about is we 're gon na get to know this room really well , phd c: mm - hmm . grad a: the the acoustics of this room . phd b: all about that . undergrad d: including the fan . grad a: including the fan . undergrad d: did you notice the fan difference ? phd b: oh , now you 've touched the fan control , now all our data 's gon na be undergrad d: hear the difference ? grad a: oh , it 's enormous . phd b: yeah , it 's great . postdoc e: oh , that 's better . undergrad d: do you wan na leave it off or not ? postdoc e: that 's better . grad a: all the others have been on . phd b: that 's undergrad d: yeah , the you sure ? phd b: oh , yeah . grad a: y absolut phd b: absolutely . undergrad d: you you think that grad a: yeah . undergrad d: things after the f then this fan 's wired backwards by the way . uh , i think this is high speed here . postdoc e: yeah , it 's noticeable . undergrad d: well , not clear . phd b: well it 's well like `` low `` is mid mid - scale . undergrad d: maybe it maybe it is n't . phd b: so it could be that it 's not actually wired backwards undergrad d: that 's right . phd b: it 's just that ambiguous . undergrad d: i was wondering also , get ready . { comment } whether the lights made any noise . postdoc e: uh - huh . grad a: there 's definitely yep . phd b: oh , they do . phd c: yeah , a little bit . phd b: yeah . grad a: high pitch hum . wow . undergrad d: so , do our meetings in the dark with no air conditioning in the future . grad a: yeah , just get a variety . postdoc e: i think candles would be nice if they do n't make noise . grad a: they 're very good . phd b: oh , yeah . phd c: it would you know , it would real really mean that we should do short meetings when you turn off the { comment } turn off the air conditioning , grad a: carbon monoxide poisoning ? undergrad d: short meetings , that 's right . or yeah , sort of { comment } r r phd c: got to finish this meeting . undergrad d: tear t tear your clothing off to stay cool . phd c: that 's right . undergrad d: actually , the a th air the air conditioning 's still working , that 's just an auxiliary fan . phd c: right , i see . grad a: so phd c: so , um , in addition to this issue about the uw stuff there was announced today , uh , via the ldc , um , a corpus from i believe santa barbara . postdoc e: yeah , i saw it . i 've been watching for that corpus . phd c: um , of general spoken english . postdoc e: yeah . yep . phd c: and i do n't know exactly how they recorded it but apparently there 's a lot of different styles of speech and what not . grad a: mm - hmm . phd c: and postdoc e: they had people come in to a certain degree and they and they have dat recorders . phd c: i see . so it is sort of far field stuff . right ? postdoc e: i i assume so , actually , i had n't thought about that . unless they added close field later on but , um , i 've listened to some of those data and i , um , i 've been i i was actually on the advisory board for when they set the project up . grad a: mm - hmm . phd c: oh , ok . phd b: what 's it sound like ? postdoc e: i 'm glad to see that it got released . grad a: yeah , i i wish postdoc e: so it it 's a very nice thing . grad a: i wish we had someone here working on adaptation phd c: s grad a: because it would nice to be able to take that stuff and adapt it to a meeting setting . you know phd c: but it may be it may be useful in postdoc e: how do you mean do you mean mechanical adaptation or grad a: no , software , to adapt the speech recognition . postdoc e: ok . phd c: well , what i was thinking is it may be useful in transcribing , if it 's far field stuff , grad a: mm - hmm . phd c: right ? in doing , um , some of our first automatic speech recognition models , it may be useful to have that kind of data postdoc e: great idea . phd c: because that 's very different than any kind of data that we have so far . grad a: that 's true . postdoc e: and and their recording conditions are really clean . i mean , i 've i 've heard i 've listened to the data . grad a: well that 's not good , right ? phd c: that 's that 's not great . postdoc e: it sounds undergrad d: tr postdoc e: well but what i mean is that , um undergrad d: but far field means great distance ? i mean grad a: just these . undergrad d: not head mounted ? phd b: yeah . undergrad d: and so that 's why they 're getting away with just two channels or something , or are they using multiple dats ? postdoc e: um , oh , good question and i ca n't ans answer it . grad a: well we can look into it . postdoc e: i do n't know . phd c: no , and their web their web page did n't answer it either . so i 'm , i uh , was thinking that we should contact them . postdoc e: ok . phd c: so it 's that 's sort of a beside - the - point point . but . grad a: so we can get that just with , uh , media costs , undergrad d: still a point . phd c: right . grad a: is that right ? phd c: uh , in fact we get it for free grad a: oh . phd c: cuz they 're distributing it through the ldc . grad a: great . postdoc e: yep . grad a: so that would be yeah , that would be something to look into . so . phd c: so , i can i can actually arrange for it to arrive in short order if we 're postdoc e: the other thing too is from from a grad a: well , it 's silly to do unless we 're gon na have someone to work on it , so maybe we need to think about it a little bit . phd c: huh . postdoc e: the other thing too is that their their jus their transcription format is really nice and simple in in the discourse domain . but they also mentioned that they have it time aligned . i mean , i s i i saw that write - up . phd c: yeah . maybe we should maybe we should get a copy of it just to see what they did phd b: yeah , absolutely . grad a: yeah . phd c: so so that we can we can compare . postdoc e: it 's very nice . grad a: ok , why do n't you go ahead and do that then eric ? phd b: absolutely . phd c: alright , i 'll do that . i ca n't remember the name of the corpus . it 's corps - s postdoc e: csae . phd c: s postdoc e: corpus of spoken american english . phd c: right , ok . postdoc e: yeah , sp i 've been i was really pleased to see that . i knew that they they had had some funding problems in completing it phd b: uh - huh . phd c: yeah . postdoc e: but , um , phd c: well they 're postdoc e: this is clever . phd c: apparently this was like phase one postdoc e: got it through the ldc . phd c: and the there 's still more that they 're gon na do apparently or something like that unless of course they have funding issues postdoc e: great . great . phd c: and then then it ma they may not do phase two but from all the web documentation it looked like , `` oh , this is phase one `` , whatever that means . postdoc e: super . super . great . yeah , that i mean , they 're really well respected in the linguistics d side too and the discourse area , phd c: ok . postdoc e: and so this is a very good corpus . phd c: but , it uh it would also maybe help be helpful for liz , if she wanted to start working on some discourse issues , you know , looking at some of this data and then , grad a: right . phd c: you know so when she gets here maybe that might be a good thing for her . grad a: actually , that 's another thing i was thinking about is that maybe jane should talk to liz , to see if there are any transcription issues related to discourse that she needs to get marked . postdoc e: ok . phd c: maybe we should have a big meeting meeting . phd b: sure , of course . undergrad d: that would be a meeting meeting meeting ? grad a: a meeting meeting meeting . phd c: yeah . grad a: well this is the meeting about the meeting meeting meeting . so . phd c: oh . grad a: um . phd c: right . but maybe we should , uh find some day that liz uh , liz and andreas seem to be around more often . grad a: mm - hmm . phd c: so maybe we should find a day when they 're gon na be here and and morgan 's gon na be here , and we can meet , at least this subgroup . i mean , not necessarily have the u - dub people down . grad a: well , i was even thinking that maybe we need to at least ping the u - dub to see phd c: we need we need to talk to them some more . grad a: you know , say `` this is what we 're thinking about for our transcription `` , if nothing else . so , well w shall we move on and talk a little bit about transcription then ? phd b: mm - hmm . let 's . phd c: yeah . grad a: ok , so { comment } since that 's what we 're talking about . what we 're using right now is a tool , um , from this french group , called `` transcriber `` that seems to work very well . um , so it has a , uh , nice useful tcl - tk user interface and , uh , undergrad d: thi - this is the process of converting audio to text ? grad a: right . undergrad d: and this requires humans just like the the stp stuff . grad a: yes , yeah . right , right . so we 're we 're at this point only looking for word level . so all all so what you have to do is just identify a segment of speech in time , and then write down what was said within it , and identify the speaker . and so the things we that we know that i know i want are the text , the start and end , and the speaker . but other people are interested in for example stress marking . and so jane is doing primary stress , um , stress marks as well . um , and then things like repairs , and false starts , and , filled pauses , and all that other sort of stuff , we have to decide how much of that we wan na do . postdoc e: i did include a glo { comment } uh , a certain first pass . my my view on it was when you have a repair then , uh it seems i mean , we saw , there was this presentation in the one of the speech group meetings about how grad a: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and i think liz has done some stuff too on that , that it , uh that you get it bracketed in terms of like well , if it 's parenthetical , which i know that liz has worked on , then uh y y you 'll have different prosodic aspects . grad a: mm - hmm . phd b: hmm . postdoc e: and then also if it 's a r if it 's a repair where they 're like what i just did , then it 's nice to have sort of a sense of the continuity of the utterance , the start to be to the finish . and , uh , it 's a little bit deceptive if you include the repai the pre - repair part and sometimes or of it 's in the middle . anyway , so what i was doing was bracketing them to indicate that they were repairs which is n't uh , very time - consuming . grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: i is there already some sort of plan in place for how this gon na be staffed or done ? or is it real is that what we 're talking about here ? grad a: well , that 's part of the thing we 're talking about . so what we wanted to do was have jane do basically one meeting 's worth , you know , forty minutes to an hour , postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad a: and postdoc e: as a pilot study . undergrad d: yourself ? grad a: yeah . undergrad d: it this is this is like five times real time or ten times real time postdoc e: yeah , as a pilot study . grad a: ten times about , is and so one of the things was to get an estimate of how long it would take , and then also what tools we would use . and so the next decision which has to be made actually pretty soon is how are we gon na do it ? so . undergrad d: and so you make jane do the first one so then she can decide , oh , we do n't need all this stuff , just the words are fine . postdoc e: that 's right , that 's right . phd b: that 's right . postdoc e: i wan na hear about these uh , we have a g you were s continuing with the transcription conventions for s grad a: r right , so so one one option is to get linguistics grad students and undergrads to do it . and apparently that 's happened in the past . and i think that 's probably the right way to do it . um , it will require a post pass , i mean people will have to look at it more than once to make sure that it 's been done correctly , but i just ca n't imagine that we 're gon na get anything that much better from a commercial one . and the commercial ones i 'm sure will be much more expensive . undergrad d: ca n't we get joy to do it all ? grad a: yeah right . postdoc e: no , that 's grad a: we will just get joy and jane to do everything . undergrad d: is tha was n't that what she was doing before ? yeah , that 's right . grad a: but , you know , that 's what we 're talking about is getting some slaves who who need money undergrad d: right . grad a: and , uh , duh , again o postdoc e: i object to that characterization ! phd b: oh , really . grad a: i meant joy . and so again , i have to say `` are we recording `` postdoc e: oh , thank you . ok . grad a: and then say , uh , morgan has has consistently resisted telling me how much money we have . undergrad d: right . well , the answer is zero . grad a: so . undergrad d: there 's a reason why he 's resisted . grad a: well , if it 's zero then we ca n't do any transcription . undergrad d: but . grad a: i mean , cuz we 're we undergrad d: right . phd b: i have such a hard name . grad a: i mean , i i ca n't imagine us doing it ourselves . right ? undergrad d: well , we already we already we already have a plan in place for the first meeting . grad a: n right . undergrad d: right ? that 's postdoc e: well th there is als yeah , really . there is also the o other possibility which is if you can provide not money but instructional experience or some other perks , you can you could get people to to um , to do it in exchange . grad a: right . undergrad d: well , i b but seriously , i i mean , morgan 's obviously in a bind over this and thing to do is just the field of dreams theory , which is we we go ahead as though there will be money at the time that we need the money . grad a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: and that 's that 's the best we can do . grad a: right . phd b: right . undergrad d: i b to not do anything until we get money is is ridiculous . grad a: right . undergrad d: we 're not gon na do any get anything done if we do that . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . grad a: so at any rate , jane was looking into the possibility of getting students , at is that right ? talking to people about that ? postdoc e: i 'm afraid i have n't made any progress in that front yet . grad a: ok . postdoc e: i should 've sent email and i have n't yet . grad a: yeah , right . so , uh undergrad d: i d do so until you actually have a little experience with what this this french thing does we do n't even have postdoc e: and i do have grad a: she 's already done quite a bit . undergrad d: oh , we have . postdoc e: i have a bunch of hours , grad a: yeah . undergrad d: i 'm sorry . so that 's where you came up with the f the ten x number ? postdoc e: yeah . undergrad d: or is that really just a guess ? postdoc e: actually that 's the the one people usually use , ten x . phd c: how fast are you ? postdoc e: and i have n't really calculated how fast am i ? undergrad d: yeah i postdoc e: i have n't done a s see , i 've been at the same time doing kind of a boot strapping in deciding on the transcription conventions that that are you know , and and stuff like , you know , how much phd b: mmm . phd c: right . postdoc e: there 's some interesting human factors problems like , yeah , what span of of time is it useful to segment the thing into in order to uh , transcribe it the most quickly . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: cuz then , you know , you get like if you get a span of five words , that 's easy . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: but then you have to take the time to mark it . and then there 's the issue of it 's easier to hear it th right the first time if you 've marked it at a boundary instead of somewhere in the middle , phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: cuz then the word 's bisected or whatever and and so i mean , i 've been sort of playing with , uh , different ways of mar cuz i 'm thinking , you know , i mean , if you could get optimal instructions you could cut back on the number of hours it would take . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: d does uh this tool you 're using is strictly it does n't do any speech recognition does it ? grad a: no . postdoc e: no , it does n't but what a super tool . it 's a great environment . undergrad d: but but is there anyway to to wire a speech recognizer up to it and actually run it through postdoc e: that 's an interesting idea . grad a: we 've we 've thought about doing that postdoc e: hey ! grad a: but the recognition quality is gon na be horrendous . undergrad d: well , a couple things . phd b: wow . undergrad d: first of all the time marking you 'd get you could get by a tool . phd b: that 's true . undergrad d: and so if the if if the issue really postdoc e: that 's interesting . undergrad d: uh , i 'm think about the close caption that you see running by on on live news casts . grad a: most of those are done by a person . undergrad d: you know , yo i know i know that . postdoc e: yeah , i undergrad d: no , i understand . and in a lot of them you see typos and things like that , grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: but it but it occurs to me that it may be a lot easier to correct things than it is to do things from scratch , no matter how wonderful the tool is . grad a: yeah . yeah , we undergrad d: but if if there was a way to merge the two phd c: well , i mean , but sometimes it 's easier to type out something instead of going through and figuring out which is the right grad a: i mean , we 've talked about it postdoc e: that 'd be fun . grad a: but phd c: i mean , it depends on the error rate , right ? undergrad d: well s but but again the timing is for fr should be for free . the timing should be phd c: but we do n't care about the timing of the words . undergrad d: well i thought you just that 's said that was a critical issue . grad a: we do n't care about the timing of the words , just of the utterances . postdoc e: no , uh the the boundary phd c: we cut it s s phd b: we do n't we do n't know , actually . postdoc e: boundary . phd b: we have n't decided which which time we care about , and that 's kind of one of the things that you 're saying , is like you have the option to put in more or less timing data and , uh , be in the absence of more specific instructions , we 're trying to figure out what the most convenient thing to do is . grad a: yeah , so so what what she 's done so far , is sort of more or less breath g not breath groups , { comment } sort of phrases , continuous phrases . phd b: yeah . grad a: and so , um , that 's nice because you you separate when you do an extract , you get a little silence on either end . so that seems to work really well . postdoc e: that 's ideal . grad a: um . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: although i was i you know , the alternative , which i was sort of experimenting with before i ran out of time , recently was , um that , you know , ev if it were like an arbitrary segment of time i t pre - marked cuz it does take time to put those markings in . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: it 's really the i the interface is wonderful because , you know , the time it takes is you listen to it , and then you press the return key . but then , you know , it 's like , uh , you press the tab key to stop the flow and and , uh , the return key to p to put in a marking of the boundary . but , you know , obviously there 's a lag between when you hear it and when you can press the return key phd b: yeah . postdoc e: so it 's slightly delayed , so then you you listen to it a second time and move it over to here . undergrad d: a postdoc e: so that takes time . undergrad d: i a postdoc e: now if it could all be pre - marked at some , l you know , good undergrad d: ar but grad a: hmm . undergrad d: are are those d delays adjustable ? those delays adjustable ? see a lot of people who actually build stuff with human computer interfaces understand that delay , phd b: yeah . undergrad d: and and so when you by the time you click it it 'll be right on because it 'll go back in time to put the postdoc e: yeah . phd b: it could do that postdoc e: yeah , uh , not in this case . grad a: we could program that pretty easily , phd b: could n't it . postdoc e: it has other grad a: could n't we dan ? yeah , mis mister tcl ? phd b: yeah . postdoc e: oh , interesting point . phd b: i would have thought so , yeah . postdoc e: ah ! { comment } interesting point . phd b: mmm . postdoc e: ok , that would make a difference . grad a: but , um postdoc e: i mean , it 's not bad grad a: but , if we tried to do automatic speaker id . postdoc e: but it does take twice . grad a: i mean , cuz primarily the markings are at speaker change . phd b: yeah , yeah , but grad a: but that would be phd b: but we 've got we 've got the most channel data . we 'd have to do it from your signal . right . i mean , we 've we 've got we 've got a lot of data . postdoc e: oh , good point ! ah ! grad a: yeah , i guess the question is how much time will it really save us versus the time to write all the tools to do it . postdoc e: we 've got volume . phd b: right . but the chances are if we if we 're talking about collecting ten or a hundred hours , which is going to take a hundred or a thousand hours to transcribe undergrad d: if grad a: but undergrad d: if we can go from ten x to five x we 're doing a big grad a: we 're gon na need we 're gon na need ten to a hundred hours to train the tools , and validate the tools the do the d to to do all this anyway . phd c: right . so maybe postdoc e: wow . phd b: if we 're just doing silence detection postdoc e: but but it op grad a: i knew you were gon na do that . just saw it coming . postdoc e: i 'm sorry . i wish you had told me wish you 'd told me . undergrad d: put put it on your sweater . postdoc e: at what part ? ok , i 'm alright . phd b: um , i it seems like well , uh , i do n't know . yeah . i mean , it it 's it 's maybe like a week 's work to get to do something like this . so forty or fifty hours . phd c: right . postdoc e: could you get it so that with so it would it would detect volume on a channel and insert a marker ? and the the format 's really transparent . phd b: sure . phd c: yeah . postdoc e: it 's just a matter of a very c clear it 's xml , is n't it ? grad a: mm - hmm . postdoc e: it 's very i mean , i looked at the the file format and it 's just it has a t a time a time indication and then something or other , and then an end time or something or other . phd c: so maybe maybe we could try the following experiment . take the data that you 've already transcribed postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd c: and undergrad d: is this already in the past or already in the future ? phd c: already in the past . undergrad d: you 've already you 've already done some ? grad a: she 's she 's done about half a meeting . phd c: she she 's done one she 's one postdoc e: yes i have . undergrad d: oh - oh , i see . phd c: right . undergrad d: ok , grad a: right ? phd c: right . undergrad d: good . grad a: about half ? phd c: i 'm go postdoc e: s i 'm not sure if it 's that 's much but anyway , enough to work with . phd c: right . phd b: several minutes . phd c: um , and and throw out the words , but keep the time markings . and then go through i mean , and go through and and try and re - transcribe it , given that we had perfect boundary detection . postdoc e: ok . good idea . phd c: and see if it see if it see if it feels easier to you . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: and forgetting all the words because you 've been thr postdoc e: yeah , that 's what i was thinking . i 'd i 'd be cheating a little bit g with familiarity effect . phd c: yeah , i mean uh , that 's part of the problem is , is that what we really need is somebody else to come along . phd b: well , no , you should do it you should do it do it again from scratch and then do it again at the boundaries . so you do the whole thing three times and then we get phd c: yeah . postdoc e: no . now , there 's a plan . undergrad d: and then then w since we need some statistics do it three more . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: and so you 'll get you 'll get down to one point two x by the time you get done . postdoc e: oh , yeah . i 'll do that tomorrow . i should have it finished by the end of the day . undergrad d: no , but the thing is the fact that she 's she 's did it before just might give a lower bound . that 's all . phd b: yeah . phd c: right . undergrad d: uh , which is fine . postdoc e: exactly . undergrad d: it 's and if the lower bound is nine x then w it 's a waste of time . postdoc e: yeah . phd c: right . postdoc e: well , uh but there 's an extra problem which is that i did n't really keep accurate phd b: oh ! postdoc e: uh , it was n't a pure task the first time , phd b: yeah . postdoc e: so uh , it 's gon na be an upper bound in in that case . and it 's not really strictly comparable . so i think though it 's a good proposal to be used on a new a new batch of text that i have n't yet done yet in the same meeting . could use it on the next segment of the text . phd b: the point we where do we get the the the oracle boundaries from ? phd c: right . phd b: or the boundaries . grad a: yeah , one person would have to assign the boundaries and the and the other person would have to postdoc e: well , but could n't i do it for the next phd b: we we we could get fake grad a: i mean that 's easy enough . postdoc e: oh , i see what you mean . grad a: i could do that . postdoc e: well , but the oracle boundaries would come from volume on a partic specific channel would n't they ? grad a: no , no . phd b: that would be the automatic boundaries . phd c: no , no , no , no . you wan na know given given a perfect human segmentation , i mean , you wan na know how well postdoc e: yeah . phd c: i mean , the the question is , is it worth giving you the segmentation ? postdoc e: oh , i see what you mean . grad a: i mean , that that 's easy enough . phd c: right . postdoc e: yeah . grad a: i could generate the segmentation and and you could do the words , and time yourself on it . so . undergrad d: a little double - blind - ear kind of thing . grad a: yep . postdoc e: i see . ok . grad a: so it that might be worth doing . postdoc e: that 's good . i like that . grad a: that would at least tell us whether it 's worth spending a week or two trying to get a tool , that will compute the segmentations . phd c: right . undergrad d: and the thing to keep in mind too about this tool , guys is that sure , you can do the computation for what we 're gon na do in the future but if if uw 's talking about doing two , or three , or five times as much stuff and they can use the same tool , then obviously there 's a real multiplier there . grad a: right . postdoc e: and the other thing too is with with speaker identification , if if that could handle speaker identification that 's a big deal . phd b: well it w phd c: right . undergrad d: well , use it . yeah , that 's why we s bought the expensive microphones . postdoc e: ok . yeah , i mean , that 's a nice feature . grad a: yep . phd b: yeah , yeah . postdoc e: that 's a major that 's like , one of the two things that phd c: i mean , there 's gon na there 's gon na be in the meeting , like the reading group meeting that we had the other day , that 's it 's gon na be a bit of a problem phd b: ok . phd c: because , like , i was n't wearing a microphone phd b: yes . phd c: f and there were other people that were n't wearing microphones . grad a: that undergrad d: but you did n't say anything worth while anyway , right ? grad a: that 'll s phd b: right . phd c: that 's pretty much true postdoc e: yeah . grad a: it might save ninety percent of the work though . phd c: but but , yes . grad a: so . phd b: so i i need to we need to look at what what the final output is but it seems like we it does n't it seems like it 's not really not that hard to have an automatic tool to generate the phrase marks , and the speaker , and speaker identity without putting in the words . grad a: yeah . i 've already become pretty familiar with the format , postdoc e: that 'd be so great . grad a: so it would be easy . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: yeah . yeah . grad a: if you 'd tell me where it is , huh ? postdoc e: we did n't finish the the part of work already completed on this , did we ? i mean , you you talked a little bit about the transcription conventions , grad a: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and , i guess you 've mentioned in your progress report , or status report , that you had written a script to convert it into so , i when i i the it 's quickest for me in terms of the transcription part to say something like , you know , if if adam spoke to , um to just say , `` a colon `` , like who could be , you know , i mean at the beginning of the line . phd b: mmm . postdoc e: and e colon instead of entering the interface for speaker identification and clicking on the thing , uh , indicating the speaker id . so , and then he has a script that will convert it into the the thing that , uh , would indicate speaker id . grad a: it 's pretty cute . postdoc e: if that 's clear . phd c: ok . grad a: but at any rate . so , um , postdoc e: it 's perl script . grad a: right . so so i think the guess at ten x seems to be pretty standard . everyone more or less everyone you talk to says about ten times for hard technical transcription . postdoc e: mm - hmm . undergrad d: using wh using stone age postdoc e: yeah . undergrad d: using stone age tools . postdoc e: that 's right . grad a: using using stone age tools . i mean , i looked at cyber transcriber postdoc e: yeah , well that 's true , but grad a: which is a service that you send an audio file , they do a first - pass speech recognition . and then they they do a clean up . but it 's gon na be horrible . they 're never gon na be able to do a meeting like this . phd b: no . undergrad d: right . postdoc e: what i just approximately , what did you find out in terms of price or or whatever ? grad a: well , for cyber transcriber they do n't quote a price . they want you to call and and talk . so for other services , um , they were about thirty dollars an hour . postdoc e: of of tape ? grad a: thirty so , yeah . postdoc e: or of action ? grad a: for thirty dollars an hour for of their work . postdoc e: ok . ok . oh , of their grad a: so so if it 's ten times it 's three hundred dollars an hour . postdoc e: oh ! phd c: so that 's three that 's three hours . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: d did you talk to anybody that does closed captioning for for uh , tv ? phd c: right . grad a: no . undergrad d: cuz they a usually at the end of the show they 'll tell what the name of the company is , the captioning company that 's doing it . grad a: mm - hmm . yeah , so so my my search was pretty cursory . postdoc e: interesting . grad a: it was just a net search . and , uh , so it was only people who have web pages and are doing stuff through that . undergrad d: well , you know , the the thing the thing about this is thinking kind of , maybe a little more globally than i should here but { comment } that really this could be a big contribution we could make . uh , i mean , we 've been through the stp thing , we know what it what it 's like to to manage the manage the process , and admittedly they might have been looking for more detail than what we 're looking for here but it was a it was a big hassle , right ? phd b: yeah . undergrad d: i mean , uh , you know , they they constantly could 've reminding people and going over it . and clearly some new stuff needs to be done here . and it 's it 's only our time , where `` our `` of course includes dan , dan and you guys . it does n't include me at all . uh . j just seems like phd b: yeah , i mean i do n't know if we 'd be able to do any thing f to help stp type problems . but certainly for this problem we can do a lot better than undergrad d: bec why ? because they wanted a lot more detail ? grad a: right . phd b: no . because they had because they only had two speakers , right ? i mean , the the segmentation problem is grad a: trivial . undergrad d: only had two . grad a: they had two speakers over the telephone . undergrad d: oh , i see . so what took them so long ? grad a: um , mostly because they were doing much lower level time . phd b: yeah . grad a: so they were doing phone and syllable transcription , as well as , uh , word transcription . undergrad d: right . right . phd c: right . postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad a: and so we 're w we decided early on that we were not gon na do that . undergrad d: i see . but there 's still the same issue of managing the process , of of reviewing and keeping the files straight , and all this stuff , that which is clearly a hassle . grad a: yep . phd b: yeah . grad a: right . and so so what i 'm saying is that if we hire an external service i think we can expect three hundred dollars an hour . phd b: yeah . grad a: i think that 's the ball park . there were several different companies that and the the range was very tight for technical documents . twenty - eight to thirty - two dollars an hour . phd c: and who who knows if they 're gon na be able to m manage multal multiple channel data ? phd b: yeah , they wo n't . grad a: they wo n't . phd b: they w they 'll refuse to do it . grad a: we 'll have to mix them . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . phd c: right . phd b: no , but i mean , they they they wo n't they wo n't they will refuse to transcribe this kind of material . postdoc e: and then there 's the problem also that phd b: that 's not what they 're d quoting for , right ? grad a: yes , it is . undergrad d: well , they might they might quote it phd b: for quoting meetings ? grad a: sev - several of them say that they 'll do meetings , and conferences , and s and so on . none of them specifically said that they would do speaker id , or speaker change mark . phd b: wow . yeah . grad a: they all just said transcription . undergrad d: th - th the th there may be just multiplier for five people costs twice as much and for ten people co { comment } something like that . phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . grad a: well , the the way it worked is it it was scaled . so what they had is , if it 's an easy task it costs twenty - four dollars an hour and it will take maybe five or six times real time . and what they said is for the hardest tasks , bad acoustics , meeting settings , it 's thirty - two dollars an hour and it takes about ten times real time . so i think that we can count on that being about what they would do . phd b: i see . yeah . grad a: it would probably be a little more phd b: right . postdoc e: yeah . grad a: because we 're gon na want them to do speaker marking . undergrad d: a lot of companies i 've worked for y the , uh the person leading the meeting , the executive or whatever , would sort of go around the room and and mentally calculate h how many dollars per hour this meeting was costing , grad a: so . undergrad d: right ? in university atmosphere you get a little different thing . but you know , it 's a lot like , `` he 's worth fifty an hour , he 's worth `` and so he so here we 're thinking , `` well let 's see , if the meeting goes another hour it 's going to be another thousand dollars . `` you know ? it 's grad a: yep , we have to have a short meeting . undergrad d: so ch so every everybody ta talk really fast . postdoc e: that 's very interesting . grad a: stop talking ! phd b: yeah . undergrad d: let 's get it over with . postdoc e: talk slowly but with few words . grad a: and clearly . phd b: that 's right . undergrad d: and only talk when you 're pointed to . postdoc e: there you go . grad a: content words only . postdoc e: we could have some telegraphic meetings . that might be interesting . phd b: yeah , it 'd be cheap . undergrad d: phd b: cheap to transcribe . grad a: so . but at any rate , so we we have a ballpark on how much it would cost if we send it out . undergrad d: and we 're talking about do doing how many hours worth of meetings ? grad a: thirty or forty . undergrad d: so thirty or forty thousand dollars . phd b: well , for ten thousand dollars . postdoc e: yeah . phd c: so , meanwhile undergrad d: oh . what well , it was thirty times phd b: three hundred . grad a: three hundred dollars an hour . undergrad d: oh , i 'm sorry , three hundred . grad a: right . undergrad d: right , i w got an extra factor of three there . phd c: so it 's thirty dollars an hour , essentially , right ? undergrad d: yeah . phd c: but we can pay a graduate student seven dollars an hour . and the question is what 's the difference phd b: how how much lower are they ? phd c: or ei eight dollars . what do you know what the going rate is ? it 's it 's on the order of eight to ten . postdoc e: i think uh that would give us a a good good estimate . phd c: i think . but i 'm not sure . postdoc e: i 'd i 'd say phd b: ten . postdoc e: yeah , i was gon na say eight you 'd say ten ? phd c: let 's say ten . phd b: yeah , give them a break . phd c: cuz it 's easier . undergrad d: the - these are not for engineering graduate students , right ? grad a: right , these are linguistics grad students . six . phd c: yeah , i i i do n't i do n't know what the i do n't know what the standard undergrad d: that 's right . phd c: but there is a standard pay scale grad a: mm - hmm . phd c: i just do n't know what it is . postdoc e: yeah , that 's right . that 's right . phd c: um , so that means that even if it takes them thirty times real time it 's cheaper to to do graduate students . postdoc e: and there 's another aspect too . grad a: i mean , that 's why i said originally , that i could n't imagine sending it out 's gon na be cheaper . phd b: no , it is n't . so . postdoc e: the other thing too is that , uh , if they were linguistics they 'd be you know , in terms of like the post editing , i uh tu uh content wise they might be easier to handle cuz they might get it more right the first time . grad a: and also we would have control of i mean , we could give them feedback . whereas if we do a service it 's gon na be limited amount . phd b: yep , yep . postdoc e: mmm . grad a: i mean , we ca n't tell them , you know , `` for this meeting we really wan na mark stress postdoc e: good point . phd b: yep . grad a: and for this meeting we want `` phd b: no . postdoc e: good point . grad a: and and they 're not gon na provide they 're not gon na provide stress , they 're not gon na re provide repairs , they 're not gon na provide they they may or may not provide speaker id . so that we would have to do our own tools to do that . so postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad a: i just phd b: yeah . undergrad d: just hypoth hypothetically assuming that that we go ahead and ended up using graduate students . i who who 's the person in charge ? who 's gon na be the steve here ? grad a: i hope it 's jane . undergrad d: you ? grad a: is that alright ? postdoc e: oh , interesting . um , now would this involve some manner of uh , monetary compensation or would i be the voluntary , uh , coordinator of multiple transcribers for checking ? grad a: um , i would imagine there would be some monetary involved but we 'd have to talk to morgan about it . phd b: yeah , out of out of adam 's pocket . phd c: yeah . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: you know , it just means you have to stop working for dave . see ? postdoc e: oh , undergrad d: that 's why dave should have been here . postdoc e: i do n't wan na stop working for dave . undergrad d: to pr protect his people . grad a: well , i would like you to do it because you have a lot more experience than i do , postdoc e: oh , cool . yeah . grad a: but if if that 's not feasible , i will do it with you as an advisor . postdoc e: uh - huh . undergrad d: w we 'd like you to do it and we 'd like to pay you . postdoc e: we 'll see . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: not being morgan though , it 's postdoc e: ok . phd c: right . postdoc e: oh , i see . phd b: we 'd like to . unfortunately postdoc e: well undergrad d: yeah . postdoc e: yeah . grad a: yeah , six dollars an hour . postdoc e: yeah , i see . phd c: that 's a undergrad d: and and then postdoc e: ok . boy , if i wanted to increase my income i could start doing the transcribing again . phd b: yeah , that 's right . yeah . undergrad d: an an an and be and be sure and say , would you like fries with that when you 're thinking about your pay scale . postdoc e: i see . good . yeah , no , that i i would be interested in that in becoming involved in the project in some aspect like that grad a: ok . more . postdoc e: more . yeah . uh - huh . yeah . grad a: um , any more on transcript we wan na talk about ? phd b: what s so what are you so you 've done some portion of the first meeting . and what 's your plan ? postdoc e: yes . mm - hmm . phd b: to carry on doing it ? postdoc e: what well , you know what i thought was right now we have p so i gave him the proposal for the transcription conventions . he made his , uh , suggestion of improvement . phd b: ok . postdoc e: the the it 's a good suggestion . so as far as i 'm concerned those transcription conventions are fixed right now . and so my next plan would be phd b: what what do they what do they cover ? postdoc e: they 're very minimal . so , it would be good to just to summarize that . so , um , one of them is the idea of how to indicate speaker change , phd b: yeah . postdoc e: and this is a way which meshes well with with , uh , making it so that , uh , you know , on the at the phd b: yeah . postdoc e: boy , it 's such a nice interface . when you when you get the , um you you get the speech signal you also get down beneath it , an indication of , uh , if you have two speakers overlapping in a s in a single segment , you see them one displayed one above each other . and then at the same time the top s part of the screen is the actual verbatim thing . you can clip click on individual utterances and it 'll take you immediately to that part of the speech signal , and play it for you . and you can , eh you can work pretty well between those two these two things . undergrad d: is there a limit to the number of speakers ? grad a: um , the user interface only allows two . and so if if you 're using their interface to specify overlapping speakers you can only do two . phd b: hmm . grad a: but my script can handle any . and their save format can handle any . and so , um , using this the convention that jane and i have discussed , you can have as many overlapping speakers as you want . undergrad d: do y is this a , uh , university project ? phd b: yeah . undergrad d: th - this is the french software , right ? grad a: yeah , french . phd b: yeah , yeah , grad a: yeah . and they 're they 've been quite responsive . phd b: their academic . undergrad d: eh grad a: i 've been exchanging emails on various issues . phd b: oh , really ? undergrad d: uh , did you ask them to change the interface for more speakers ? postdoc e: oh . grad a: yes , and they said that 's on in in the works for the next version . undergrad d: good . phd c: oh , so multi multichannels . undergrad d: good . grad a: multichannels was also well , they said they wanted to do it but that the code is really very organized around single channels . so i think that 's n unlikely to ha happen . phd c: i see . ok . undergrad d: do - do you know what they 're using it for ? why 'd they develop it ? grad a: for this exact task ? phd c: for transcription . undergrad d: are they linguists ? phd c: it 's undergrad d: but i mean , are they are they linguists or are they speech recognition people ? grad a: i think they 're linguists . postdoc e: ho phd b: linguists . postdoc e: hmm . phd b: yeah . phd c: they 're they have some connection to the ldc cuz the ldc has been advising them on this process , the linguistic data consortium . um , undergrad d: mm - hmm . phd c: so but a apart from that . grad a: it 's also all the source is available . phd c: yeah . grad a: so . phd c: right . grad a: if you if you speak tcltk . undergrad d: great . mm - hmm . grad a: and they have they 've actually asked if we are willing to do any development and i said , well , maybe . phd c: right . undergrad d: good . grad a: so if we want if we did if we did something like programmed in a delay , which actually i think is a great idea , um , i 'm sure they would want that incorporated back in . postdoc e: mm - hmm . yeah , i do too . phd b: mm - hmm . undergrad d: their pre pre - lay . phd b: pre - lay . grad a: way . postdoc e: pre - lay . well , and they 've thought about things . you know , i mean , they they do have so you have when you when you play it back , um , it 's it is useful to have , uh , a a break mark to se segment it . but it would n't be strictly necessary cuz you can use the uh , the tabbed key to toggle the sound on and off . i mean , it 'll stop the s speech you know if you if you press a tab . and , um . and so , uh , that 's a nice feature . and then also once you 've put a break in then you have the option of cycling through the unit . you could do it like multiply until you get { comment } crazy and decide to stop cycling through that unit . undergrad d: loop it ? yo - you n you know , there 's al also the the user interface that 's missing . postdoc e: or or or undergrad d: it 's missing from all of our offices , and that is some sort of analog input for something like this . it 's what audio people actually use of course . it 's something that wh when you move your hand further , the sound goes faster past it , like fast forward . you know , like a joy stick or a uh , you could wire a mouse or trackball to do something like that . postdoc e: why , that 's that 's not something i wanted to have happen . undergrad d: no , but i 'm saying if this is what professionals who actually do this kind of thing for for for m for video or for audio where you you need to do this , postdoc e: i see . uh - huh . undergrad d: and so you get very good at sort of jostling back and forth , rather than hitting tab , and backspace , and carriage return , and enter , and things like that . phd b: mmm . mmm . postdoc e: uh - huh . grad a: yeah , we talked about things like foot pedals and other analog phd c: yeah . undergrad d: mm - hmm . grad a: so i mean , tho those are things we could do but i i just do n't know how much it 's worth doing . i mean we 're just gon na have undergrad d: ye - yeah . phd c: yeah . undergrad d: right . postdoc e: yeah , i i agree . they they have several options . so , uh , you know , i mentioned the looping option . another option is it 'll pause when it reaches the end of the boundary . and then to get to the next boundary you just press tab grad a: hmm . postdoc e: and it goes on to the next unit . undergrad d: cool . postdoc e: i mean , it 's very nicely thought out . phd c: hmm . postdoc e: they thought about and also it 'll go around the c the , uh , i wan na say cursor but i 'm not sure if that 's the right thing . grad a: point , whatever . postdoc e: anyway , you can so they thought about different ways of having windows that you c uh work within , phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and but so in terms of the con the conventions , then , uh , basically , uh , it 's strictly orthographic which means with some w provisions for , uh , w uh , colloquial forms . so if a person said , `` cuz `` instead of `` because `` then i put a an apostrophe at the beginning of the word and then in in double ang angle brackets what the full lexical item would be . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and this could be something that was handled by a table or something but i think to have a convention marking it as a non - standard or wha i do n't mean standard but a a a non uh , ortho orthographic , uh , whatever . phd b: mm - hmm . grad a: non - canonical . phd c: mm - hmm . postdoc e: `` gon na `` or `` wan na `` , you know , the same thing . and and there would be limits to how much refinement you want in indicating something as non - standard pres pronunciation . phd c: how are you handling backchannels ? postdoc e: backchannels ? grad a: comments . postdoc e: um , you know oh , yes , there was some in my view , when i when you 've got it densely overlapping , um , i did n't worry about i did n't worry about s specific start times . phd c: what do you mean by du postdoc e: i sort of thought that this is not gon na be { comment } easily processed anyway and maybe i should n't spend too much time getting exactly when the person said `` no `` , or , you know , uh , i `` immediate `` . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: and instead just sort of rendered `` within this time slot , there were two people speaking during part of it phd b: yeah . postdoc e: and if you want more detail , figure it out for yourself `` , phd b: mm - hmm . grad a: well , i think what w what eric was talking about was channels other than the direct speech , phd c: i see . postdoc e: was sort of the way i felt @ @ grad a: right ? phd c: well , yeah , what i mean is wh i mean , when somebody says `` uh - huh `` in the middle of , uh , a @ @ grad a: yep . postdoc e: uh - huh . that happened very seldom . phd c: oh , cuz i was i was listening to dan was agreeing a lot to things that you were saying as you were talking . undergrad d: uh - huh . uh - huh . postdoc e: oh , well , thank you dan . phd c: so . postdoc e: appreciate it . well , if it if there was a word like `` right `` , you know , then i wou i would indicate that it happened within the same tem time frame grad a: yeah , there 's an overlapping mark . phd c: and phd b: yeah . postdoc e: but would n't say exactly when it happened . undergrad d: i 'll be right back . phd b: i transcribed a minute of this stuff phd c: i see . phd b: and there was a lot of overlapping . it was postdoc e: a lot of overlapping , yeah . grad a: well there there 's a lot of overlapping at the beginning and end . phd b: yeah . yeah . grad a: huge amounts . phd b: it was at the beginning . grad a: um , when when no one i when we 're not actually in the meeting , and we 're all sort of separated , and and doing things . but even during the meeting there 's a lot of overlap but it it 's marked pretty clearly . um , some of the backchannel stuff jane had some comments and but i think a lot of them were because you were at the meeting . and so i think that that often often you ca n't tell . postdoc e: yeah , well that 's true . that 's another issue . grad a: i mean , jane had had comments like uh , to who who the person was speaking to . phd c: yeah . postdoc e: yeah . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: only when it was otherwise gon na be puzzling grad a: yeah . postdoc e: because he was in the other room talking . grad a: yeah , but someone who , uh , was just the transcriber would n't have known that . postdoc e: yeah . grad a: or when dan said , `` i wa i was n't talking to you `` . phd c: right . postdoc e: that 's true . i know . undergrad d: so you take a bathroom break in the middle and and keep your head mount grad a: you have to turn off your mike . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: oh , you do ? phd b: you do n't have to . postdoc e: well he was so so he was checking the meter levels and and we were handling things while he was labeling the the whatever it was , the pda ? grad a: mm - hmm . phd b: uh - huh . postdoc e: and and so he was in sort of you were sort of talking you know , so i was saying , like `` and i could label this one left . right ? `` and he and he said , `` i do n't see anything `` . and he said he said , `` i was n't talking to you `` . or it was n't it did n't sound quite that rude . grad a: but postdoc e: but really , no , uh w you know in the context if you know he ca n't hear what he 's saying grad a: but when you w when you listen to it undergrad d: he he it was a lot funnier if you were there though . postdoc e: uh , yeah , grad a: well what what it what happens is if you 're a transcriber listening to it it sounds like dan is just being a total totally impolite . postdoc e: i know . well , you 'll see . you can listen to it . oh , i thought it was you who was . no , well , but you were you were asking off the wall questions . grad a: um but but if you knew that that i was n't actually in the room , and that dan was n't talking to me , it it became ok . so . phd b: i see . undergrad d: so th postdoc e: and that 's w that 's where i added comments . phd c: hmm . postdoc e: the rest of the time i did n't bother with who was talking to who but but this was unusual circum circumstance . undergrad d: so this is this is gon na go on the meeting meeting transcriber bloopers tape , right ? grad a: yes . right . postdoc e: well and part of it was funny , uh reason was because it was a mixed signal so you could n't get any clues from volume that , you know , he was really far away from this conversation . grad a: stereo . yeah . postdoc e: you could n't do that symmetrically in any case . phd b: no . grad a: oh . i should rewrite the mix tool to put half the people in one channel and half in the other . i have a auto - gain - mixer tool that mixes all the head mounted microphones into one signal postdoc e: that 's a good idea . undergrad d: mm - hmm . grad a: and that seems to work really well for the uh transcribers . undergrad d: great . postdoc e: but i thought it would be you know , i i did n't wan na add more contextual comments than were needed but that , it seemed to me , clarified that the con what was going on . and , uh ok , phd c: so , s postdoc e: so normalization phd c: i was just gon na ask , uh , so i just wanted to c sort of finish off the question i had about backchannels , phd b: mmm . phd c: if that 's ok , postdoc e: yeah . ok . phd c: which which was , so say somebody 's talking for a while postdoc e: yeah . phd c: and somebody goes `` mm - hmm `` in the middle of it , and and and what not , does the conversation come out from the or the person who 's speaking for the long time as one segment and then there 's this little tiny segment of this other speaker or does it does the fact that there 's a backchannel split the the the it in two . postdoc e: ok , my my focus was to try and maintain conten con content continuity and , uh , to keep it within what he was saying . like i would n't say breath groups but prosodic or intonational groups as much as possible . so if someone said `` mm - hmm `` in the middle of a of someone 's , uh , uh , intonational contour , i i indicated it as , like what you just did . phd c: ok . postdoc e: then i indicated it as a segment which contained @ @ { comment } this utterance plus an overlap . phd b: but that 's but there 's only one there 's only one time boundary for both speakers , phd c: ok . phd b: right ? postdoc e: yeah , that 's right . and you know , it could be made more precise than that phd c: i see , postdoc e: but i just thought phd c: i see , ok . postdoc e: yeah . phd c: right . undergrad d: i think whenever we use these speech words we should always do the thing like you 're talking about , accent , postdoc e: oh , i see what you mean . and then `` hesitation `` . yeah . ok , and so then , uh , in terms of like words like `` uh `` and `` um `` i just wrote them because i figured there 's a limited number , and i keep them to a uh , limited set because it did n't matter if it was `` mmm `` or `` um `` , { comment } you know , versus `` um `` . so i just always wrote it as u m . phd b: ok . postdoc e: and `` uh - huh `` , you know , `` uhuh . `` i mean , like a s set of like five . but in any case i did n't mark those . phd b: no . phd c: mm - hmm . phd b: `` uh - huh `` is `` u h h u h . `` h u h . `` postdoc e: i 'd be happy with that . that 'd be fine . it 'd be good to have that in the in the conventions , what 's to be used . phd c: huh - uh . grad a: i i did notice that there were some segments that had pauses on the beginning and end . we should probably mark areas that have no speakers as no speaker . then , so question mark colon is fine for that . postdoc e: yeah , that 's a fine idea . that 's a fine idea . grad a: just say silence . undergrad d: well , what 's that mean ? postdoc e: yeah , ok . yeah . undergrad d: you mean re grad a: no one 's talking . undergrad d: ye s oh . silence all around . grad a: yep . undergrad d: yep . phd b: we have to mark those ? postdoc e: so i had phd b: do n't they d ca n't we just leave them unmarked ? postdoc e: i d well , you see , that 's possible too . grad a: well , i wan na leave the marked i do n't want them to be part of another utterance . so you just you need to have the boundary at the start and the end . phd b: ok . sure . postdoc e: mm - hmm . now that 's refinement that , uh , maybe it could be handled by part of the part of the script or something more phd b: uh , yeah , it seems like it seems like the , uh , tran the transcription problem would be very different if we had these automatic speaker detection turn placing things . because suddenly i mean , i do n't know , actually it sounds like there might be a problem putting it into the software if the software only handles two parallel channels . but assuming we can get around that somehow . postdoc e: mm - hmm . well you were saying , i think it can read grad a: it can read and write as many as you want , it 's just that it postdoc e: uh - huh . phd b: but what if you wan na edit it ? right ? i mean , the point is we 're gon na generate this transcript with five five tracks in it , but with no words . someone 's gon na have to go in and type in the words . um , and if there are five five people speaking at once , grad a: right , i it 's i did n't explain it well . if we use the the little the conventions that jane has established , i have a script that will convert from that convention to their saved convention . phd b: oh , yeah . yes . postdoc e: which allows five . grad a: right . postdoc e: and it can be m edited after the fact , grad a: yes . postdoc e: ca n't it also ? but their but their format , if you wanted to in indicate the speakers right there instead of doing it through this indirect route , then i they a c window comes up and it only allows you to enter two speakers . phd b: yeah . right . undergrad d: but you 're saying that by the time you call it back in to from their saved format it opens up a window with window with five speakers ? postdoc e: so . but . grad a: right . undergrad d: oh ! that is sort of f grad a: it 's just user interface . undergrad d: they did n't quite go the whole grad a: so i it 's undergrad d: yeah , they did n't go the whole route , grad a: the the the whole saved form the saved format and the internal format , all that stuff , handles multiple speakers . undergrad d: did they ? they just grad a: it 's just there 's no user interface for specifying multiple any more than two . undergrad d: right . so your your script solves does n't it solve all our problems , postdoc e: and that grad a: yep . undergrad d: cuz we 're always gon na wan na go through this preprocessing grad a: yep . undergrad d: uh , assuming it works . grad a: yep . postdoc e: and that works nicely cuz this so quick to enter . so i would n't wan na do it through the interface anyway adding which worry who the speaker was . grad a: yep . undergrad d: i see . right . good . postdoc e: and then , uh , let 's see what else . oh , yes , i i wanted to have so sometimes a pers i uh in terms of like the continuity of thought for transcriptions , it 's i it is n't just words coming out , it 's like there 's some purpose for an utterance . and sometimes someone will do a backchannel in the middle of it but you wan na show that it 's continued at a later point . so i have i have a convention of putting like a dash arrow just to indicate that this person 's utterance continues . and then when it uh , catches back up again then there 's an arrow dash , and then you have the opposite direction to indicate continuation of ones own utterance versus , um , sometimes we had the situation which is you know , which you which you get in conversations , { comment } of someone continuing someone else 's utterance , phd b: mmm . postdoc e: and in that case i did a tilde arrow versus a arrow tilde , to indicate that it was continuation but it was n't oh , i guess i did equal arrow for the for the own for yourself things phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: cuz it 's the speakers the same . and then tilde arrow if it was a different if a different speaker , uh , con continuation . phd b: mmm . grad a: oh . postdoc e: but just , you know , the arrows showing continuation of a thought . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and then you could track whether it was the same speaker or not by knowing you know , at the end of this unit you 'd know what happened later . and that was like this person continued phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and you 'd be able to look for the continuation . grad a: so phd b: but the only time that becomes ambiguous is if you have two speakers . like , if you if you only have one person , if you only have one thought that 's continuing across a particular time boundary , you just need one arrow at each end , and if it 's picked up by a different speaker , it 's picked up by a different speaker . the time it becomes ambiguous if you have more than one speaker and that and they sort of swap . i guess if you have more than one thread going , then you then you need to know whether they were swapped or not . postdoc e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd c: how often does that happen do you think ? postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: hopefully not very much . postdoc e: yeah , i did n't use it very often . grad a: especially for meetings . i mean , if i if you were just recording someone 's day , it would be impossible . you know , undergrad d: it l ou grad a: if you were trying to do a remembrance agent . but i think for meetings it 's probably alright . phd c: hmm . grad a: but , a lot of these issues , i think that for uh , from my point of view , where i just wan na do speech recognition and information retrieval , it does n't really matter . phd b: sure . grad a: but other people have other interests . phd b: i know . grad a: so . phd b: but it it does feel it does feel like it 's really in there . i you know i did this i did this transcription and i marked that , i marked it with ellipsis because it seemed like there was a difference . it 's something you wanted to indicate that it that i this was the end of the phrase , this was the end of that particular transcript , but it was continued later . grad a: right . phd b: and i picked up with an ellipsis . postdoc e: excellent . yeah . phd b: i did n't have the equal , not equal thing . postdoc e: yeah . well that 's you know , i mean i that 's why i did n't { comment } i did n't do it n i mean , that 's why i thought about it , and and re - ev phd b: yeah , yeah . postdoc e: and it did n't do i did n't do it in ten times the the time . grad a: well , so anyway , are we interested then in writing tools to try to generate any of this stuff automatically ? postdoc e: yeah . grad a: is that something you want to do , dan ? phd b: no . grad a: no . phd b: but it 's something @ @ that i feel we definitely ought to do . postdoc e: i also wanted to ask you if you have a time estimate on the part that you transcribed . do you have a sense of how long phd b: yeah , it took me half an hour to transcribe a minute , but i did n't have any i did n't even have a postdoc e: ok . phd b: i was trying to get transcriber to run but i could n't . so i was doing it by typ typing into a text file and trying to fit it was horrible . postdoc e: ok . ok . undergrad d: so thirty to one 's what you got ? phd b: mm - hmm . undergrad d: so that 's a new upper limit ? phd b: yeah . postdoc e: well , i mean , that 's that 's because you did n't have the segmentation help and all the other grad a: but i think for a first try that 's about right . phd b: is it phd c: so so if we hired a who if we hired a whole bunch of dan 's undergrad d: that 's right . postdoc e: yeah . phd b: it was actually it was quite it was a t undergrad d: a grad a: if we hire an infinite number of dan 's phd b: it w undergrad d: it 'd b a a postdoc e: and there 's always a warm up thing of grad a: are we gon na run out of disk space by the way ? phd b: yeah . grad a: ok , phd b: no . grad a: good . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: d does n't it beep in the other room when you 're out of disk space ? phd c: so is there grad a: no . phd c: maybe we should s consider also , um , starting to build up a web site around all of these things . phd b: web site ! that 's great ! phd c: i know . grad a: dan 's sort of already started . phd b: we could have like business - to - business e - commerce as well ! phd c: that 's right . no , but i 'm it would be interesting it would be interesting to see grad a: can we sell banner ads ? undergrad d: get get paid for click - throughs ? grad a: what a good idea , phd b: yeah . grad a: that 's how we could pay for the transcription . phd c: i want to introduce i i want to introduce the word `` snot - head `` into the conversation at this point . phd b: we can have undergrad d: you wan na word that wo n't be recognized ? phd c: you see , cuz uh , cuz exactly . um . postdoc e: oh , i do n't think so . phd c: no . grad a: hey , what about me ? phd c: the r w what ok . postdoc e: you 're the one who raised the issue . phd c: no . alright , see here 's here 's here 's my thought behind it which is that , uh , the the stuff that you 've been describing , jane , i gu one has to , of course indicate , { comment } um , i is very interesting , postdoc e: alright . phd c: and i i 'd like to be able to to pore through , you know , the the types of tr conventions that you 've come up with and stuff like that . phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . phd c: so i would like to see that kind of stuff on the web . postdoc e: ok , now , w the alternative to a web site would be to put it in doctor speech . phd b: yes . yes . postdoc e: cuz cuz what i have is a soft link to my transcription that i have on my account phd c: either 's fine . phd b: we c postdoc e: but it does n't matter . grad a: we can do it all . phd b: we can do it all ! we can write postdoc e: ok . phd b: oh . postdoc e: web site 's nice . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: then you have to t you have to do an ht access . undergrad d: web site 's what ? phd b: we could actually maybe we could use the tcl plug - in . oh , man . postdoc e: ooo ! he 's committed himself to something . phd c: ow . see he said the word tcl and and that 's undergrad d: but he does such a good job of it . he should be allowed to to , you know , w do it . postdoc e: i know , i know . phd b: i know , but that but , i right . but i should be allowed to but undergrad d: if you just did a crappy job , no nobody would want you to do it . phd b: i sh i should n't be allowed to by m by my own by my according to my own priorities . alright . let 's look at it anyway . so definitely we should we should have some kind of access to the data . grad a: and we have we have quite a disparate number of web and other sorts of documents on this project sort of spread around . phd c: yeah . grad a: i have several and dan has a few , phd b: yes . grad a: and phd c: right , so we can add in links and stuff like that to other things . postdoc e: ah ! grad a: yep . postdoc e: nice . phd b: well , yeah . phd c: the phd b: well so then th grad a: try try to s consolidate . i mean , who wants to do that though ? phd b: the other side is , yeah . phd c: uh , right . grad a: no one wants to do that . so . postdoc e: yeah . phd b: right , that 's the problem . phd c: well , we could put we could put sort of a disorganized sort of group gestalt undergrad d: why ? what what 's what 's the issue ? phd b: no one owns the project . undergrad d: no one what ? phd b: no one owns the project . grad a: yeah , i own the project but i do n't wan na do it . phd b: no one wants to own the project . phd c: right . undergrad d: w well do but grad a: it 's mine ! all mine ! phd b: well then you have to do the web site . undergrad d: but grad a: `` wah - hah - hah - hah - hah - hah . `` phd b: you know , it 's like , it 's that simple . undergrad d: b but but but what are you what are you talking about for web site hacking ? phd b: no undergrad d: you 're talking about writing html , right ? grad a: yeah , i i 'm talking about putting together all the data in a form that that is legible , and pleasant to read , and up to date , and et cetera , et cetera , et cetera . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: but , is it against the law to actually use a tool to help your job go easier ? grad a: absolutely . it 's it 's absolutely against the law to use a tool . i have n't found any tools that i like . undergrad d: you y grad a: it 's just as easy to use to edit the raw html as anything else . undergrad d: no kidding ? phd b: that 's obviously not true , grad a: it 's obviously not true . phd b: but you have undergrad d: no , it it it 's obviously true that he has n't found any he likes . phd b: right . that 's true . undergrad d: the question is what is what 's he looked at . postdoc e: which one do you use jim ? undergrad d: i use something called trellix . postdoc e: oh , that 's right . i remember . yeah . undergrad d: and it postdoc e: which produces also site maps . grad a: now , i guess if i were if i were doing more powerful excuse me more complex web sites i might want to . undergrad d: it 's - it it 's very powerful . grad a: but most of the web sites i do are n't that complex . postdoc e: well , would this be to document it also for outside people or mainly for in house use ? grad a: but . i think both . phd c: no , i think in grad a: mostly in house . phd b: that 's right . phd c: i think mostly internal . undergrad d: well , yeah , postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: but what does internal mean ? phd b: no , both . undergrad d: i mean , you 're leaving . people at uw wan na look at it . i mean , it 's it 's internal { comment } until phd c: right . internal to the project . undergrad d: i see . postdoc e: we could do an ht access which would accommodate those things . phd b: i i i i grad a: ok , well , send me links and i wi send me pointers , rather , and i 'll put it together . phd b: i 'm not o postdoc e: wonderful . phd b: ok . i 'm not sure how how important that distinction is . i do n't think we should say , `` oh , it 's internal therefore we do n't have to make it very good `` . i mean , you can say `` oh oh , it 's internal phd c: no . no . phd b: therefore we can put data in it that we do n't we do n't have to worry about releasing `` . but i think the point is to try and be coherent and make it a nice presentation . undergrad d: right . i agree . postdoc e: yeah , it is true , that is it benefits to undergrad d: cuz you 're gon na have to wor do the work sooner or later . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: that 's right . i mean , it 's the early on . undergrad d: even if it 's just writing things up . grad a: yep . undergrad d: you know ? postdoc e: it 's a great idea . grad a: ok , um , let 's move on to electronics . phd b: ah . great . undergrad d: d we we out of tape out of disk ? phd b: no , we 're doing we 're doing great . undergrad d: i i was looking for the actual box i plan to use , uh , but i c all i could i could n't find it at the local store . but this is the the technology . it 's actually a little bit thinner than this . and it 's two by two , by one , and it would fit right under the right under th the the the the lip , grad a: yeah , does everyone know about the lip on the table ? it 's great . undergrad d: yeah . there 's a lip in these tables . postdoc e: nice . undergrad d: and , it oc i p especially brought the bottom along to try and generate some frequencies that you may not already have recorded . grad a: clink ! clink ! undergrad d: let 's see see what it does to the but this was the uh just just to review , and i also brought this { comment } along rather than the projector so we can put these on the table , and sort of w push them around . grad a: and and crinkle them and phd b: what ? postdoc e: and th `` that `` being a diagram . phd b: what ? undergrad d: that that 's the six tables that we 're looking at . these six tables here , with with little boxes sort of , uh , in the middle here . phd b: i see . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: which es would i mean , the the boxes are pretty much out of the way anyway . i 'll - i 'll show you the the cro this is the table cross section . i do n't know if people realize what they 're looking at . phd b: you trying to screw up the m the microphones ? grad a: yes . he is . absolutely . phd b: i mean th undergrad d: well why not ? i mean , cuz this is what 's gon na happen . you got plenty of data . i wo n't come to your next meeting . and and and you so this is the box 's grad a: get your paper off my pda ! phd b: yeah . postdoc e: yeah , let let the record show that this is exhibit two b . undergrad d: that 's right . `` or not to be `` . yeah , yeah . grad a: yeah . undergrad d: uh , the box , uh there 's a half inch lip here . the box is an inch thick so it hangs down a half an inch . and so the the two head set jacks would be in the front and then the little led to indicate that that box is live . the the important issue about the led is the fact that we 're talking about eight of these total , which would be sixteen channels . and , uh , even though we have sixteen channels back at the capture , they 're not all gon na be used for this . phd b: hmm . undergrad d: so there 'd be a subset of them used for obviously j just use the ones at this end for for this many . so excuse me . you 'd like a a way to tell whether your box is live , so the led would n't be on . phd b: right . all the lights . undergrad d: so if you 're plugged in it does n't work and the led is off that 's that 's a tip off . and then the , uh would wire the all of the cables in a in a bundle come through here and o obviously collect these cables at the same time . postdoc e: that 's good . undergrad d: uh , so this this notion of putting down the p z ms and taking them away would somehow have to be turned into leaving them on the table grad a: right . well , we wan na do that definitely . undergrad d: or or right . grad a: so . undergrad d: right . and so the you we just epoxy them down or something . big screw into the table . phd b: velcro . undergrad d: uh , and even though there 's eight cables they 're not really very big around so my model is to get a a a p piece of grad a: sleeve . undergrad d: yeah , that that stuff that people put with the little you slip the wires into that 's sort of shaped like that cross section . grad a: oh . ok , not just sleeve them all ? undergrad d: yeah . i 'm i 'm r a i 'm going up and then i 'm going down . grad a: and leave them loose ? phd b: no . postdoc e: that looks like a semi - circle . phd b: yeah . it 's like a it 's a sleeping policeman . grad a: whoo ! phd b: speed bump ! postdoc e: sleeping pol phd b: speed bump . grad a: speed a `` sleeping policeman `` ! undergrad d: yeah , it 's like a speed bum an postdoc e: speed bump . that 's good . there we go s grad a: cool . undergrad d: and they 're ac they 're actually ext extruded from plastic . phd c: what is undergrad d: they sorta look like this . grad a: oh . phd c: what does that mean ? phd b: that 's the s that 's british for speed bump , phd c: is it a speed bump ? undergrad d: so that the wires go through here . phd b: yeah . phd c: wow . postdoc e: oh , is that right ? phd b: yeah . postdoc e: i never heard that . grad a: that 's really cruel . undergrad d: so . postdoc e: ah ! grad a: ok , so that undergrad d: s so it would c basically go on the diagonal here . phd c: it could go either way . grad a: so why do we have sixteen channels instead of like some fewer number ? phd b: yeah . phd c: i guess . undergrad d: uh , because the phd b: how else are you gon na distribute them around the tables ? undergrad d: because they 're there . grad a: well , ok , let me rephrase that . why two each ? phd b: oh , because then you do n't have to just have one each . so that if t if you have two people sitting next to each other they can actually go into the same box . undergrad d: yeah . grad a: ok . undergrad d: and to see , thi this is really the way people sit on this table . th grad a: ok . postdoc e: mm - hmm . undergrad d: uh . dot , dot , dot . postdoc e: which means two at each station . undergrad d: well that that 's the way people sit . that 's how many chairs are in the room . postdoc e: yeah . grad a: alright . postdoc e: yeah , i 'm just saying that for the recording . undergrad d: yeah . grad a: right . undergrad d: right . grad a: ok . undergrad d: and certainly you could do a thing where all sixteen were plugged in . grad a: but then none of these . undergrad d: uh if if you ha if you had nothing else . grad a: right . n none of these and no p z ms then . undergrad d: yeah . right . right . i agree . phd b: only if you had well it depends on this box , right ? undergrad d: oh , true enough . and actually , at the m my plan is to only bring eight wires out of this box . phd b: exactly . grad a: oh , i did n't understand undergrad d: this this box thi - thi thi this box is a one off deal . postdoc e: that being the wiring box . grad a: oh , i see , i see . undergrad d: uh . and , uh , it 's function is to s to , uh , essentially a wire converter to go from these little blue wires to these black wires , plus supply power to the microphones cuz the the he the , uh , cheap head mounteds all require low voltage . grad a: so so you 'd imagine some sort of in some sort of patch panel on top to figure out what the mapping was between each d of these two and each of those one or what ? phd b: hmm ! undergrad d: well i w i i the simplest thing i could imagine , i which is really , really simple is to quite literally that these things plug in . and there 's a there 's a plug on the end of each of these these , uh , ei eight cables . postdoc e: what phd b: yeah . postdoc e: ok . each of the blue wires ? phd b: but there are only four . undergrad d: an - and there 's only there 's only four slots that are you know , in in the first version or the version we 're planning to to build . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . grad a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: so that that was the whole issue with the led , that you plug it in , the led comes on , and and and you 're live . grad a: oh , then it comes on . i see , i see . ok , good . undergrad d: now the the the subtle issue here is that tha i i have n't really figured out a solution for this . so , we it 'll have to be convention . what happens if somebody unplugs this because they plug in more of something else ? grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: well the there 's no clever way to let the up stream guys know that you 're really not being powered . so th there will be a certain amount of looking at cables has to be done if people , uh , rewire things . grad a: right . phd b: yeah , i mean , we i had that last time . undergrad d: but . phd b: but uh there are actually that you know , there 's an extra there 's a mix out on the radio receiver ? undergrad d: mm - hmm . phd b: so there are actually six xlr outs on the back of the radio receiver and only five cables going in , i had the wrong five , so i ended up not recording one of the channels and recording the mix . undergrad d: how interesting . d did you do any recognition on the mix mix out ? postdoc e: hmm . phd b: no . undergrad d: wonder whether it works any phd b: but i subtracted the four that i did have from the mix and got a pretty good approximation of the @ @ . undergrad d: got the fifth ? grad a: you g undergrad d: cool . postdoc e: oh , how great . grad a: and did it work ? phd b: yeah . grad a: did it sound good ? phd b: it 's not bad . undergrad d: is it is phd b: it 's not bad , grad a: wow . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: ai n't science wonderful ? postdoc e: that 's amazing . phd b: yeah . grad a: so what 's the schedule on these things ? undergrad d: so phd b: but , you always postdoc e: wow . undergrad d: uh , well i was wrestling with th with literally the w number of connectors in the cable and the the , uh , powering system . and i i was gon na do this very clever phantom power and i decided a couple days ago not to do it . phd b: hmm ! undergrad d: so i 'm ready to build it . which is to say , uh , the neighborhood of a week to get the circuit board done . grad a: mm - hmm . so i think the other thing i 'd like to do is , do something about the set up phd b: see grad a: so that it 's a little more presentable and organized . undergrad d: i agree . grad a: and i 'm i 'm just not sure what that is . i mean , some sort of cabinet . undergrad d: well i can build a cabinet . the the difficulty for this kind of project is the intellectual capital to design the cabinet . grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: in other words , to figure out ex exactly what the right thing is . that cabinet can can go away . we can use that for for uh kindling or something . but if you can imagine what the right form factor is . dan - dan and i have sort of gone around on this , and we were thinking about something that opened up in the top to allow access to the mixer for example . grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: but there 's these things sticking out of the mixer which are kind of a pain , so you end up with this thing that if if you stuck the mixer up here and the top opened , it 'd be it 'd be fine . you would n't necessarily well , you s understand what i 'm grad a: yeah , i understand . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: the the you can you can start start s sketching it out , grad a: so . undergrad d: and i can certainly build it out of oak no problem , would it you know , arb you know , arbitrarily amount of grad a: i need a desk at home too , alright ? is that gon na be a better solution than just going out and buy one ? undergrad d: well , the as we found out with the the thing that , uh , jeff bought a long time ago to hold our stereo system the stuff you buy is total crap . and i mean this is something you buy . grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: and and grad a: and it 's total crap . undergrad d: it 's total crap . well , it 's useless for this function . works fine for holding a kleenex , grad a: right , kleenex and telephones . undergrad d: but it right . grad a: um , so yeah , i g i guess it 's just a question , is that something you wan na spend your time on ? undergrad d: oh , i i 'm paid for . grad a: ok , great . undergrad d: i have no problem . no , but w certainly one of the issues is is the , uh is security . grad a: hmm ? mm - hmm . undergrad d: i mean , we 've been been been lax and lucky . grad a: lax . phd b: yeah . yep . undergrad d: really lucky with these things . but they 're not ours , so phd b: yeah . undergrad d: the , uh the flat panels . phd b: oh , yeah ! grad a: i 'm telling you , i 'm just gon na cart one of them away if they stay there much longer . phd b: well w yeah , exactly . undergrad d: uh , let the record show at uh at f four thirty - five adam janin says postdoc e: wow . tempting . phd b: we 'll know we 'll know to come after . postdoc e: tempting . yeah . grad a: so , um , j uh , then the other question is do we wan na try to do a user interface that 's available out here ? phd b: sorry ? undergrad d: slipped almost slipped it by dan . postdoc e: use - user interface grad a: a user interface . i mean , do we wan na try to get a monitor ? or just something . phd b: oh ! sure . postdoc e: oh . phd b: well of course we do . grad a: and how do we want to do that ? postdoc e: you mean like see see meter readings , from while sitting here . grad a: j just so we see something . postdoc e: wow . undergrad d: how about use the thing that um aciri 's doing . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: which is to say just laptop with a wireless . phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . sure . postdoc e: oh . phd b: which we 'll borrow from them , when we need it . undergrad d: what 's wrong with yours ? if we bought you a a phd b: oh , a applecard . sure . right . yeah , you could use my machine . phd c: well undergrad d: what ? grad a: i have an iram machine i 've borrowed and we can use it . phd b: i or the undergrad d: n no , i 'm i 'm i 'm serious . does does the wireless thing work on your grad a: wait , is n't that an ethernet connection or is that a phone ? phd b: uh , that 's an ethernet connection . grad a: well phd b: it 's going next door . undergrad d: yeah no no i 'm a i i i ai n't joking here . grad a: we jus undergrad d: i 'm serious , that that it it phd b: yeah . no , no , absolutely , that 's the right way to do it . t to have it uh , just undergrad d: it 's very convenient especially if dan happens to be sitting at that end of the table to not have to run down here and and look in the thing every so often , phd b: yeah . and given given that we 've got a wireless that we 've got a we got the field . undergrad d: but just have the it 's right there . phd b: right . undergrad d: right ? the antenna 's right there , grad a: right . phd b: yeah . yeah . undergrad d: right outside the phd b: i do n't know . undergrad d: y i mean , we need obviously need to clear this with aciri but , uh , how tough can that be ? there it you 'd all you need 's web access , is n't it ? phd b: w we do n't need x access undergrad d: in in theory . phd b: but i mean that 's fine . that 's that 's what it does , undergrad d: ok , phd b: yeah . undergrad d: great , great . grad a: um , phd b: so grad a: right , so it 's just a question of getting a laptop and a wireless modem . phd b: with a with a with a w undergrad d: no , and he he had , reque @ @ my my proposal is you have a laptop . phd b: no . yeah . i do ! undergrad d: you do n't ? phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah . undergrad d: if if we bought you the thing would you mind using it with i the the phd b: no , i would love to but i 'm not sure if my laptop is compatible with the wave lan thing they 're using . undergrad d: really ? grad a: to mac . phd b: well apple has their own thing , right ? phd c: he 's undergrad d: your new one ? grad a: airport . undergrad d: i 'm sorry ? phd b: apple has their own thing . and undergrad d: i thought it just came through a serial p or an ethernet port . phd b: yeah , i think what i think you i think it just plug plugs in a pc card , so you could probably make it run with that , but . grad a: the question is , is there an apple driver ? undergrad d: i e phd b: yeah , i 'm sure . i imagine there is . but uh anyway there are there are abs there are a bunch of machines at icsi that have those cards undergrad d: but the two t phd b: and so i think if w if it does n't we should be able to find a machine that does that . i i mean i know that does n't do n't do n't the important people have those little blue vaios that undergrad d: well , uh , b that to me that 's a whole nother . that 's a whole nother issue . postdoc e: hmm . hmm . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: the the idea of con convincing them that we should use their network i is fairly straight forward . phd b: yeah . yeah . undergrad d: the idea of being able to walk into their office and say , `` oh , can i borrow your machine for a while `` , is is is a non - starter . phd b: yeah . i see . undergrad d: that i i do n't think that 's gon na work . so , i mean , either either we figure out how to use a machine somebody already in the group already owns , a a and the idea is that if it 's it perk , you know , it 's an advantage not not a disadvan { comment } or else we we literally buy a machine e exactly for that purpose . phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah . absolutely . yeah . undergrad d: certainly it solves a lot of the problems with leaving a monitor out here all the time . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: i i i i 'm i 'm not a big fan of doing things to the room that make the room less attractive for other people , grad a: right . undergrad d: right ? which is part of the reason for getting all this stuff out of the way grad a: yeah . undergrad d: and and , so a monitor sitting here all the time you know people are gon na walk up to it and go , `` how come i ca n't get , you know , pong on this `` or , whatev grad a: mm - hmm . right . i 've i 've borrowed the iram vaio sony thingy , phd c: well grad a: and i do n't think they 're ever gon na want it back . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: right . phd b: you 're kidding ! undergrad d: well , the next conference they will . grad a: so . sure . undergrad d: yeah . grad a: but that does mean so we can use that as well . undergrad d: well , uh , the certainly , u you should give it a shot first see whether you you can get compatible stuff . phd b: mm - hmm . undergrad d: uh , ask them what it costs . ask them if they have an extra one . who knows , they might have an extra hardware s phd b: i 'd trade them a flat panel display for it . yeah . phd c: what is the , um , projector supposed to be hooked up to ? undergrad d: good . uh , the , uh tsk . it 's gon na be hooked up to all sorts of junk . there 's gon na be actually a a plug at the front that 'll connect to people 's laptops so you can walk in and plug it in . and it 's gon na be con connected to the machine at the back . so we certainly could use that as as a constant reminder of what the vu meters are doing . phd b: huge vu meters . undergrad d: so people sitting here { comment } are going `` testing , one , two , three `` ! phd c: but i mean , that 's another that 's another possibility that , you know , solves undergrad d: it a phd b: yeah . undergrad d: yeah . phd b: that 's an end undergrad d: but but but i think the idea of having a control panel it 's that 's there in front of you is really cool . phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: i think and uh , having having it on wireless is is the neatest way neatest way to do it . undergrad d: r grad a: i had undergrad d: as long as you d as l as long as you 're not tempted to sit there and f keep fiddling with the volume controls going , `` can you talk a bit louder ? `` phd b: yeah . grad a: i had actually earlier asked if i could borrow one of the cards to do wireless stuff phd b: yeah . grad a: and they said , `` sure , whenever you want `` . so i think it wo n't be a problem . phd b: oh , cool . ok . undergrad d: and and it 's a a pcmcia card , right ? grad a: yep . undergrad d: pc card , grad a: pc card . undergrad d: so you can have a slot , phd b: yeah , yeah . undergrad d: right ? in your new machine ? phd c: it 's it really come down to the driver . undergrad d: is it with s phd b: yeah . phd c: i mean grad a: right , i mean , and if and if his does n't work , as i said , we can use the pc . undergrad d: right , i it 'll it 'll work it 'll work the first time . i i trust steve jobs . grad a: good . phd b: um , grad a: so phd b: well , that sounds like a d good solution one way or the other . grad a: so jim is gon na be doing wiring and you 're gon na give some thought to cabinets ? undergrad d: uh , y yeah . grad a: great . undergrad d: we we need to figure out what we want . uh phd b: we 'd i think undergrad d: hey , what are those green lights doing ? grad a: they 're flashing ! phd b: uh - oh ! uh - oh ! does that it means it means it 's gon na explode . no . undergrad d: cut the red wire , the red wire ! phd b: um grad a: when people talk , it they go on and off . phd b: this so again , washington wants to equip a system . our system , we spent ten thousand dollars on equipment not including the pc . however , seven and a half thousand of that was the wireless mikes . uh , undergrad d: mm - hmm . phd b: using using these undergrad d: and it and the f the five thousand for the wires , so if i 'm gon na do no . phd b: yeah , undergrad d: it 's a joke . phd b: that 's true undergrad d: i have to do phd b: but we have n't spent that , right ? but once we once we 've done the intellectual part of these , uh , we can just knock them out , right ? grad a: cheap . phd b: we can start we you can make a hundred of them or something . undergrad d: oh , of the of the boards ? yeah , yeah , sure , right . phd b: and then we could washington could have a system that did n't have any wireless but would had what 's based on these undergrad d: mm - hmm . phd b: and it would cost grad a: a pc and a peanuts . undergrad d: peanuts . phd b: pc and two thousand dollars for the a - to - d stuff . grad a: yeah . phd b: and that 's about cuz you would n't even need the mixer if you did n't have the oh th the p z undergrad d: right . phd b: p z ms cost a lot . but anyway you 'd save , on the seven seven or eight thousand for the for the wireless system . so actually that might be attractive . undergrad d: right . grad a: good . phd b: ok , i can move my thumb now . postdoc e: that 's a great idea . undergrad d: what ? postdoc e: it 's nice it 's nice to be thinking toward that . undergrad d: oh , i thought like if we talked softer the disk lasts longer . grad a: well , actually shorten phd b: yeah . grad a: there 's a speech compression program that works great on things like this , cuz if the dynamic range is low it encodes it with fewer bits . and so most of the time no one 's talking so it shortens it dramatically . but if you talk quieter , the dynamic range is lower and it will compress better . so . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: oh . hmm . undergrad d: it also helps if you talk in a monotone . grad a: probably . undergrad d: constant volume all the time . postdoc e: oh , interesting . and shorter words . grad a: shorter words . phd c: now , shorter words would n't would induce more dynamics , right ? you want to have phd b: yeah , but if the words are more predictable . grad a: how about if you just go `` uh `` ? phd c: huh . undergrad d: uh . postdoc e: that 's a long word ! grad a: how do you spell that ? postdoc e: i do n't know . grad a: ok , can you do one more round of digits ? are we done talking ? undergrad d: well it 's a choice if we get a choice , let 's keep talking . grad a: do we have more to talk about ? undergrad d: sure . no , i 'm done . phd c: i 'm done . grad a: are you done ? postdoc e: i 'm done , grad a: i 'm done . postdoc e: yeah . phd c: dan is n't but he 's not gon na say anything . undergrad d: but you you you there 's a problem a structural problem with this though . you really need an incentive at the end if you 're gon na do digits again . like , you know , candy bars or something , grad a: i 'll i 'll remember to bring m and m 's next time . undergrad d: or or or or or a little , uh you know , toothbrushes like they give you at the d dentist . phd b: mmm ! postdoc e: or both . undergrad d: or both . phd b: sorry . undergrad d: eric , you and i win . we did n't make any mistakes . grad a: it 's harder at the end than at the beginning . postdoc e: we do n't know that for sure , do we ? grad a: i should have mentioned that s uh , to pause between lines but undergrad d: no , i know . i 'm just giving you a hard time . grad a: it 's it 's only a hard time for the transcriber not for the speech recognizer . phd b: tha - tha postdoc e: but i also think you said channel four grad a: me . postdoc e: and i think you meant microphone four . and i think that 's a mistake . undergrad d: very good . so eric , you win . but the other thing is that there 's a there 's a colon for transcripts . and there should n't be a colon . because see , everything else is stuff you fill in . phd b: yeah , that 's been filled in for you . undergrad d: right ? automatically . phd b: but they 're in order ! undergrad d: but real phd b: they start , six , seven , eight , nine , zero , one , two , three , four , five , six , eight , nine . undergrad d: where 'd they come from ? phd b: and they 're in order because they 're sorted lexically by the file names , which are have the numbers in digits . postdoc e: oh . phd b: and so they 're actually this is like all the all utterances that were generated by speaker mpj or something . postdoc e: oh . phd b: and then within mpj they 're sorted by what he actually said . grad a: ugh ! i did n't know that . i should have randomized it . postdoc e: wow . phd b: it does n't matter ! it 's like cuz you said `` six , seven , eight `` . undergrad d: well , we think it does n't matter . phd b: we think it does n't matter . if i if not i undergrad d: but the real question i have is that , why bother with these ? postdoc e: oh , interesting . undergrad d: why do n't you just ask people to repeat numbers they already know ? like phone numbers , you know , social security numbers . phd b: cuz we have these writt written down , right ? grad a: because right . phd b: that 's why grad a: if we have it , uh undergrad d: i know . postdoc e: social security numbers . undergrad d: i kn grad a: we do n't have to transcribe . phd b: you can you can generate postdoc e: bank account numbers . undergrad d: credit card numbers , grad a: we do n't have to tran undergrad d: yeah . grad a: yeah , please . phd b: yeah . that 's a great idea . postdoc e: passport numbers . undergrad d: yeah , so you just say say your credit card numbers , say your phone numbers , say your mother 's maiden name . grad a: bet we could do it . undergrad d: you know pe postdoc e: password to your account . undergrad d: people off the street . postdoc e: go on . undergrad d: this grad a: actually , this i got this directly from another training set , from aurora . phd b: alright . grad a: so . we can compare directly . phd b: looks good . looks like there were no errors . postdoc e: i was i the reason i made my mistake was grad a: what ? postdoc e: wa - was this ? phd b: there were no there were no direct driver errors , by the look of it , which is good . grad a: great . postdoc e: good news . grad a: ok , the mike 's off . phd b: so i 'm gon na stop it . yeah , ok . postdoc e: ok . grad a: thank you all . undergrad d: mony on the mike . phd b: uh - oh .

the team was starting a transcription project for which they would have to collect a lot of speech data and then transcribe it . the meeting covered the pipeline they would use to create their data set . the team started by discussing the technical issues with their own recording equipment and then moved onto a general overview of the entire pipeline . then , the team narrowed down on how they could carry out transcriptions . various ideas were thrown around , but the team did not seem convinced that a software could do the task . they would need human annotators due to the granularity they were aiming for . then , the team talked abut transcription conventions ; what should be annotated and how ? the team also talked about the interface they could use for transcriptions . finally , the team ended with a discussion on the time it takes to annotate and the electronics involved .

summarize the discussion on the transcription pipeline </s> grad a: ok , this is one channel . can you uh , say your name and talk into your mike one at a time ? phd c: this is eric on channel three , i believe . grad a: ok . uh , i do n't think it 's on there , jane . undergrad d: tasting one two three , tasting . postdoc e: ok , this is jane on channel five . grad a: uh , i still do n't see you jane . postdoc e: oh , darn , what am i doing wrong ? undergrad d: can you see me on channel four ? really ? grad a: yeah , i s undergrad d: my lucky day . postdoc e: uh , screen no , it is , oh , maybe it just warmed up ? grad a: no . postdoc e: oh , darn , can you ca n't see channel five yet ? grad a: uh , well , the mike is n't close enough to your mouth , so . postdoc e: oh , this would be k ok , is that better ? grad a: s uh , try speaking loudly , undergrad d: i like the high quality labelling . grad a: so , postdoc e: hello , grad a: ok , good . undergrad d: david , can we borrow your labelling machine to improve the quality of the labelling a little bit here ? postdoc e: hello . alright . grad a: thank you . phd b: one t undergrad d: how how many are there , one to five ? phd b: one five , yeah . undergrad d: yeah , please . postdoc e: would you like to join the meeting ? grad a: well , we do n't wan na renumber them , postdoc e: i bet grad a: cuz we 've already have like , forms filled out with the numbers on them . so , let 's keep the same numbers on them . phd b: yeah , ok , that 's a good idea . grad a: ok , dan , are you on ? phd b: i 'm on i 'm on two and i should be on . grad a: good . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: want to join the meeting , dave ? do we do do we have a spare , uh grad a: and i 'm getting lots of responses on different ones , so i assume the various and assorted p z ms are on . undergrad d: we ' r we 're we ' r this is this this is a meeting meeting . postdoc e: this is abou we 're we 're mainly being taped but we 're gon na talk about , uh , transcription for the m future meeting meetings . grad a: stuff . yeah , this is not something you need to attend . so . postdoc e: yeah . e ok . phd c: you 're always having one of those days , dave . postdoc e: y you 'd be welcome . grad a: besides , i do n't want anyone who has a weird accent . postdoc e: you 'd be welcome . grad a: right , dan ? undergrad d: so , i do n't understand if it 's neck mounted you do n't get very good performance . phd c: it 's not neck mounted . it 's supposed to be h head mounted . undergrad d: yeah . it it should be head mounted . right ? grad a: well , then put it on your head . phd b: i do n't know . phd c: right . grad a: what are you doing ? undergrad d: cuz when you do this , you can rouww - rouww . postdoc e: why did n't i you were saying that but i could hear you really well on the on the transcription on the , uh , tape . grad a: well , i m i would prefer that people wore it on their head phd b: i i do n't know . phd c: i grad a: but they were complaining about it . because it 's not it does n't go over the ears . undergrad d: why ? postdoc e: it 's badly designed . grad a: it 's very badly designed so it 's phd b: it 's very badly designed ? undergrad d: what do you mean it does n't go over the ears ? phd b: why ? it 's not s it 's not supposed to cover up your ears . grad a: yeah but , there 's nowhere to put the pad so it 's comfortable . phd b: i mean , it 's only badly postdoc e: so that 's what you 're d he 's got it on his temples so it cuts off his circulation . phd b: oh , that 's strange . phd c: yeah , that 's that 's what i have . grad a: and it feels so good that way . phd c: it feels so good when i stop . grad a: so i i again would like to do some digits . undergrad d: somebody wan na postdoc e: try it . grad a: um . undergrad d: somebody wan na close the door ? grad a: sure . phd b: ok . postdoc e: we could do it with noise . grad a: so let me phd c: you 're always doing digits . grad a: well , you know , i 'm just that sort of digit - y g sorta guy . ok . so this is adam . postdoc e: uh , this is the same one i had before . grad a: i doubt it . phd b: it 's still the same words . grad a: i think we 're session four by the way . or m it might be five . undergrad d: psss ! oh , that 's good . postdoc e: no grad a: i did n't bring my previous thing . phd b: we did n't postdoc e: now , just to be sure , the numbers on the back , this is the channel ? phd b: that 's the microphone number . postdoc e: that 's the microphone number . grad a: yeah , d leave the channel blank . postdoc e: uh - oh . ok , good . undergrad d: but number has to be ? so we have to look up the number . postdoc e: five grad a: right . undergrad d: ok , good . postdoc e: good . ok . well , this is jane , on mike number five . um . i just start ? do i need to say anything more ? grad a: uh , transcript number . phd b: transcript number phd c: ok , this is eric on microphone number three , undergrad d: this is beck on mike four . grad a: thanks . should i turn off the vu meter dan ? do you think that makes any difference ? phd b: oh , god . no , let me do it . grad a: why ? are you gon na do something other than hit `` quit `` ? phd b: no , but i 'm gon na look at the uh , logs as well . grad a: oh . should have done it before . postdoc e: uh , you said turn off the what ? grad a: the vu meter which tells you what the levels on the various mikes are and there was one hypothesis that perhaps that the act of recording the vu meter was one of the things that contributed to the errors . postdoc e: oh . oh , i see . undergrad d: yeah , but eric , uh , you did n't think that was a reasonable hypothesis , right ? postdoc e: i see . grad a: that was me , undergrad d: oh , i 'm sorry y grad a: i thought that was undergrad d: that was malarkey . grad a: well , the only reason that could be is if the driver has a bug . right ? because the machine just is n't very heavily loaded . undergrad d: no chance of that . grad a: no chance of that . just because it 's beta . look ok ? phd b: yeah , there there there was there was a there was a bug . there was a glitch last time we ran . undergrad d: are - are yo are you recording where the table mikes are by the way ? phd b: no . undergrad d: do you know which channels grad a: yeah , we usually do that . phd b: no , we do n't . grad a: yeah . phd b: but we we ought to st we ought to standardize . undergrad d: why not ? phd b: i think , uh , i s i spoke to somebody , morgan , { comment } about that . i think i think we should put mar well , no , w we can do that . undergrad d: why do n't you just do this ? grad a: i mean , that 's what we 've done before . phd b: i know what they they 're they 're four , three , two , one . in order now . undergrad d: four . phd b: three , two , and one . undergrad d: three . phd b: but i think i think we should put them in standard positions . i think we should make little marks on the table top . grad a: which means we need to move this thing , and sorta decide how we 're actually going to do things . phd b: so that we can put them postdoc e: oh , ok . phd b: i guess that 's the point . grad a: so . phd b: it 'll be a lot easier if we have a if we have them permanently in place or something like that . grad a: right . postdoc e: i do wish there were big booms coming down from the ceiling . phd b: you do ? postdoc e: yeah . phd c: would it make you feel more important ? grad a: mmm . postdoc e: yeah , yeah , yeah . phd c: i see . undergrad d: wait till the projector gets installed . postdoc e: you know . grad a: that 'll work . postdoc e: oh , that 'll be good . grad a: that 'll work . phd b: oh , gosh . undergrad d: cuz it 's gon na hang down , make noise . postdoc e: ok . phd b: when 's it gon na be installed ? postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: well , it depends on phd b: i see . undergrad d: is this b is this being recorded ? grad a: that 's right . undergrad d: uh , i think lila actually is almost getting r pretty close to even getting ready to put out the purchase order . phd b: ok . cool . undergrad d: i handed it off to her about a month ago . phd b: i see . grad a: ok , so , topic of this meeting is i wan na talk a little bit about transcription . um , i 've looked a little bit into commercial transcription services and jane has been working on doing transcription . uh , and so we wan wan na decide what we 're gon na do with that and then get an update on the electronics , and then , uh , maybe also talk a little bit about some infrastructure and tools , and so on . um , you know , eventually we 're probably gon na wan na distribute this thing and we should decide how we 're gon na how we 're gon na handle some of these factors . so . phd b: distribute what ? grad a: hmm ? phd b: the data ? grad a: right . right . i mean , so we 're we 're collecting a corpus and i think it 's gon na be generally useful . i mean , it seems like it 's not a corpus which is uh , has been done before . and so i think people will be interested in having having it , phd b: oh . grad a: and so we will undergrad d: u using , like , audio d v ds or something like that ? grad a: excuse me ? phd b: yes . undergrad d: audio d v grad a: well , or something . yeah , audio d v c ds , undergrad d: or t grad a: you know . undergrad d: yeah . tapes . grad a: and and so how we do we distribute the transcripts , how do we distribute the audio files , how do we how do we just do all that infrastructure ? phd c: well , i think i mean , for that particular issue ther there are known sources where people go to to find these kind of things like the ldc for instance . postdoc e: yeah , grad a: right , but but so should we do it in the same format as ldc postdoc e: that 's right . grad a: and what does that mean to what we 've done already ? phd b: right . the it 's not so much the actu the logistics of distribution are secondary to preparing the data in a suitable form for distribution . phd c: right . grad a: right . so , uh , as it is , it 's sort of a ad - hoc combination of stuff dan set and stuff i set up , which we may wan na make a little more formal . so . phd b: and the other thing is that , um , university of washington may want to start recording meetings as well , grad a: right . phd b: in which case w w we 'll have to decide what we 've actually got so that we can give them a copy . grad a: that 's right . undergrad d: a field trip . grad a: yeah . i was actually thinking i would n't mind spending the summer up there . that would be kind of fun . phd b: oh , really ? grad a: yeah . visit my friends and spend some time phd b: different for you . yes . grad a: well , and then also i have a bunch of stuff for doing this digits . so i have a bunch of scripts with x waves , and some perl scripts , and other things that make it really easy to extract out and align where the digits are . and if u d uw 's going to do the same thing i think it 's worth while for them to do these digits tasks as well . undergrad d: mm - hmm . grad a: and what i 've done is pretty ad - hoc , um , so we might wan na change it over to something a little more standard . phd c: hmm . grad a: you know , stm files , or xml , or something . undergrad d: an - and there 's interest up there ? grad a: what 's that ? undergrad d: there 's interest up there ? grad a: well they they certainly wan na collect more data . and so they 're applying , i think i b is that right ? something like that . phd b: i do n't know . grad a: um , for some more money to do more data . so we were planning to do like thirty or forty hours worth of meetings . they wan na do an additional hundred or so hours . so , they want a very large data set . um , but of course we 're not gon na do that if we do n't get money . so . phd b: i see . grad a: and i would like that just to get a disjoint speaker set and a disjoint room . i mean , one of the things morgan and i were talking about is we 're gon na get to know this room really well , phd c: mm - hmm . grad a: the the acoustics of this room . phd b: all about that . undergrad d: including the fan . grad a: including the fan . undergrad d: did you notice the fan difference ? phd b: oh , now you 've touched the fan control , now all our data 's gon na be undergrad d: hear the difference ? grad a: oh , it 's enormous . phd b: yeah , it 's great . postdoc e: oh , that 's better . undergrad d: do you wan na leave it off or not ? postdoc e: that 's better . grad a: all the others have been on . phd b: that 's undergrad d: yeah , the you sure ? phd b: oh , yeah . grad a: y absolut phd b: absolutely . undergrad d: you you think that grad a: yeah . undergrad d: things after the f then this fan 's wired backwards by the way . uh , i think this is high speed here . postdoc e: yeah , it 's noticeable . undergrad d: well , not clear . phd b: well it 's well like `` low `` is mid mid - scale . undergrad d: maybe it maybe it is n't . phd b: so it could be that it 's not actually wired backwards undergrad d: that 's right . phd b: it 's just that ambiguous . undergrad d: i was wondering also , get ready . { comment } whether the lights made any noise . postdoc e: uh - huh . grad a: there 's definitely yep . phd b: oh , they do . phd c: yeah , a little bit . phd b: yeah . grad a: high pitch hum . wow . undergrad d: so , do our meetings in the dark with no air conditioning in the future . grad a: yeah , just get a variety . postdoc e: i think candles would be nice if they do n't make noise . grad a: they 're very good . phd b: oh , yeah . phd c: it would you know , it would real really mean that we should do short meetings when you turn off the { comment } turn off the air conditioning , grad a: carbon monoxide poisoning ? undergrad d: short meetings , that 's right . or yeah , sort of { comment } r r phd c: got to finish this meeting . undergrad d: tear t tear your clothing off to stay cool . phd c: that 's right . undergrad d: actually , the a th air the air conditioning 's still working , that 's just an auxiliary fan . phd c: right , i see . grad a: so phd c: so , um , in addition to this issue about the uw stuff there was announced today , uh , via the ldc , um , a corpus from i believe santa barbara . postdoc e: yeah , i saw it . i 've been watching for that corpus . phd c: um , of general spoken english . postdoc e: yeah . yep . phd c: and i do n't know exactly how they recorded it but apparently there 's a lot of different styles of speech and what not . grad a: mm - hmm . phd c: and postdoc e: they had people come in to a certain degree and they and they have dat recorders . phd c: i see . so it is sort of far field stuff . right ? postdoc e: i i assume so , actually , i had n't thought about that . unless they added close field later on but , um , i 've listened to some of those data and i , um , i 've been i i was actually on the advisory board for when they set the project up . grad a: mm - hmm . phd c: oh , ok . phd b: what 's it sound like ? postdoc e: i 'm glad to see that it got released . grad a: yeah , i i wish postdoc e: so it it 's a very nice thing . grad a: i wish we had someone here working on adaptation phd c: s grad a: because it would nice to be able to take that stuff and adapt it to a meeting setting . you know phd c: but it may be it may be useful in postdoc e: how do you mean do you mean mechanical adaptation or grad a: no , software , to adapt the speech recognition . postdoc e: ok . phd c: well , what i was thinking is it may be useful in transcribing , if it 's far field stuff , grad a: mm - hmm . phd c: right ? in doing , um , some of our first automatic speech recognition models , it may be useful to have that kind of data postdoc e: great idea . phd c: because that 's very different than any kind of data that we have so far . grad a: that 's true . postdoc e: and and their recording conditions are really clean . i mean , i 've i 've heard i 've listened to the data . grad a: well that 's not good , right ? phd c: that 's that 's not great . postdoc e: it sounds undergrad d: tr postdoc e: well but what i mean is that , um undergrad d: but far field means great distance ? i mean grad a: just these . undergrad d: not head mounted ? phd b: yeah . undergrad d: and so that 's why they 're getting away with just two channels or something , or are they using multiple dats ? postdoc e: um , oh , good question and i ca n't ans answer it . grad a: well we can look into it . postdoc e: i do n't know . phd c: no , and their web their web page did n't answer it either . so i 'm , i uh , was thinking that we should contact them . postdoc e: ok . phd c: so it 's that 's sort of a beside - the - point point . but . grad a: so we can get that just with , uh , media costs , undergrad d: still a point . phd c: right . grad a: is that right ? phd c: uh , in fact we get it for free grad a: oh . phd c: cuz they 're distributing it through the ldc . grad a: great . postdoc e: yep . grad a: so that would be yeah , that would be something to look into . so . phd c: so , i can i can actually arrange for it to arrive in short order if we 're postdoc e: the other thing too is from from a grad a: well , it 's silly to do unless we 're gon na have someone to work on it , so maybe we need to think about it a little bit . phd c: huh . postdoc e: the other thing too is that their their jus their transcription format is really nice and simple in in the discourse domain . but they also mentioned that they have it time aligned . i mean , i s i i saw that write - up . phd c: yeah . maybe we should maybe we should get a copy of it just to see what they did phd b: yeah , absolutely . grad a: yeah . phd c: so so that we can we can compare . postdoc e: it 's very nice . grad a: ok , why do n't you go ahead and do that then eric ? phd b: absolutely . phd c: alright , i 'll do that . i ca n't remember the name of the corpus . it 's corps - s postdoc e: csae . phd c: s postdoc e: corpus of spoken american english . phd c: right , ok . postdoc e: yeah , sp i 've been i was really pleased to see that . i knew that they they had had some funding problems in completing it phd b: uh - huh . phd c: yeah . postdoc e: but , um , phd c: well they 're postdoc e: this is clever . phd c: apparently this was like phase one postdoc e: got it through the ldc . phd c: and the there 's still more that they 're gon na do apparently or something like that unless of course they have funding issues postdoc e: great . great . phd c: and then then it ma they may not do phase two but from all the web documentation it looked like , `` oh , this is phase one `` , whatever that means . postdoc e: super . super . great . yeah , that i mean , they 're really well respected in the linguistics d side too and the discourse area , phd c: ok . postdoc e: and so this is a very good corpus . phd c: but , it uh it would also maybe help be helpful for liz , if she wanted to start working on some discourse issues , you know , looking at some of this data and then , grad a: right . phd c: you know so when she gets here maybe that might be a good thing for her . grad a: actually , that 's another thing i was thinking about is that maybe jane should talk to liz , to see if there are any transcription issues related to discourse that she needs to get marked . postdoc e: ok . phd c: maybe we should have a big meeting meeting . phd b: sure , of course . undergrad d: that would be a meeting meeting meeting ? grad a: a meeting meeting meeting . phd c: yeah . grad a: well this is the meeting about the meeting meeting meeting . so . phd c: oh . grad a: um . phd c: right . but maybe we should , uh find some day that liz uh , liz and andreas seem to be around more often . grad a: mm - hmm . phd c: so maybe we should find a day when they 're gon na be here and and morgan 's gon na be here , and we can meet , at least this subgroup . i mean , not necessarily have the u - dub people down . grad a: well , i was even thinking that maybe we need to at least ping the u - dub to see phd c: we need we need to talk to them some more . grad a: you know , say `` this is what we 're thinking about for our transcription `` , if nothing else . so , well w shall we move on and talk a little bit about transcription then ? phd b: mm - hmm . let 's . phd c: yeah . grad a: ok , so { comment } since that 's what we 're talking about . what we 're using right now is a tool , um , from this french group , called `` transcriber `` that seems to work very well . um , so it has a , uh , nice useful tcl - tk user interface and , uh , undergrad d: thi - this is the process of converting audio to text ? grad a: right . undergrad d: and this requires humans just like the the stp stuff . grad a: yes , yeah . right , right . so we 're we 're at this point only looking for word level . so all all so what you have to do is just identify a segment of speech in time , and then write down what was said within it , and identify the speaker . and so the things we that we know that i know i want are the text , the start and end , and the speaker . but other people are interested in for example stress marking . and so jane is doing primary stress , um , stress marks as well . um , and then things like repairs , and false starts , and , filled pauses , and all that other sort of stuff , we have to decide how much of that we wan na do . postdoc e: i did include a glo { comment } uh , a certain first pass . my my view on it was when you have a repair then , uh it seems i mean , we saw , there was this presentation in the one of the speech group meetings about how grad a: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and i think liz has done some stuff too on that , that it , uh that you get it bracketed in terms of like well , if it 's parenthetical , which i know that liz has worked on , then uh y y you 'll have different prosodic aspects . grad a: mm - hmm . phd b: hmm . postdoc e: and then also if it 's a r if it 's a repair where they 're like what i just did , then it 's nice to have sort of a sense of the continuity of the utterance , the start to be to the finish . and , uh , it 's a little bit deceptive if you include the repai the pre - repair part and sometimes or of it 's in the middle . anyway , so what i was doing was bracketing them to indicate that they were repairs which is n't uh , very time - consuming . grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: i is there already some sort of plan in place for how this gon na be staffed or done ? or is it real is that what we 're talking about here ? grad a: well , that 's part of the thing we 're talking about . so what we wanted to do was have jane do basically one meeting 's worth , you know , forty minutes to an hour , postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad a: and postdoc e: as a pilot study . undergrad d: yourself ? grad a: yeah . undergrad d: it this is this is like five times real time or ten times real time postdoc e: yeah , as a pilot study . grad a: ten times about , is and so one of the things was to get an estimate of how long it would take , and then also what tools we would use . and so the next decision which has to be made actually pretty soon is how are we gon na do it ? so . undergrad d: and so you make jane do the first one so then she can decide , oh , we do n't need all this stuff , just the words are fine . postdoc e: that 's right , that 's right . phd b: that 's right . postdoc e: i wan na hear about these uh , we have a g you were s continuing with the transcription conventions for s grad a: r right , so so one one option is to get linguistics grad students and undergrads to do it . and apparently that 's happened in the past . and i think that 's probably the right way to do it . um , it will require a post pass , i mean people will have to look at it more than once to make sure that it 's been done correctly , but i just ca n't imagine that we 're gon na get anything that much better from a commercial one . and the commercial ones i 'm sure will be much more expensive . undergrad d: ca n't we get joy to do it all ? grad a: yeah right . postdoc e: no , that 's grad a: we will just get joy and jane to do everything . undergrad d: is tha was n't that what she was doing before ? yeah , that 's right . grad a: but , you know , that 's what we 're talking about is getting some slaves who who need money undergrad d: right . grad a: and , uh , duh , again o postdoc e: i object to that characterization ! phd b: oh , really . grad a: i meant joy . and so again , i have to say `` are we recording `` postdoc e: oh , thank you . ok . grad a: and then say , uh , morgan has has consistently resisted telling me how much money we have . undergrad d: right . well , the answer is zero . grad a: so . undergrad d: there 's a reason why he 's resisted . grad a: well , if it 's zero then we ca n't do any transcription . undergrad d: but . grad a: i mean , cuz we 're we undergrad d: right . phd b: i have such a hard name . grad a: i mean , i i ca n't imagine us doing it ourselves . right ? undergrad d: well , we already we already we already have a plan in place for the first meeting . grad a: n right . undergrad d: right ? that 's postdoc e: well th there is als yeah , really . there is also the o other possibility which is if you can provide not money but instructional experience or some other perks , you can you could get people to to um , to do it in exchange . grad a: right . undergrad d: well , i b but seriously , i i mean , morgan 's obviously in a bind over this and thing to do is just the field of dreams theory , which is we we go ahead as though there will be money at the time that we need the money . grad a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: and that 's that 's the best we can do . grad a: right . phd b: right . undergrad d: i b to not do anything until we get money is is ridiculous . grad a: right . undergrad d: we 're not gon na do any get anything done if we do that . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . grad a: so at any rate , jane was looking into the possibility of getting students , at is that right ? talking to people about that ? postdoc e: i 'm afraid i have n't made any progress in that front yet . grad a: ok . postdoc e: i should 've sent email and i have n't yet . grad a: yeah , right . so , uh undergrad d: i d do so until you actually have a little experience with what this this french thing does we do n't even have postdoc e: and i do have grad a: she 's already done quite a bit . undergrad d: oh , we have . postdoc e: i have a bunch of hours , grad a: yeah . undergrad d: i 'm sorry . so that 's where you came up with the f the ten x number ? postdoc e: yeah . undergrad d: or is that really just a guess ? postdoc e: actually that 's the the one people usually use , ten x . phd c: how fast are you ? postdoc e: and i have n't really calculated how fast am i ? undergrad d: yeah i postdoc e: i have n't done a s see , i 've been at the same time doing kind of a boot strapping in deciding on the transcription conventions that that are you know , and and stuff like , you know , how much phd b: mmm . phd c: right . postdoc e: there 's some interesting human factors problems like , yeah , what span of of time is it useful to segment the thing into in order to uh , transcribe it the most quickly . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: cuz then , you know , you get like if you get a span of five words , that 's easy . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: but then you have to take the time to mark it . and then there 's the issue of it 's easier to hear it th right the first time if you 've marked it at a boundary instead of somewhere in the middle , phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: cuz then the word 's bisected or whatever and and so i mean , i 've been sort of playing with , uh , different ways of mar cuz i 'm thinking , you know , i mean , if you could get optimal instructions you could cut back on the number of hours it would take . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: d does uh this tool you 're using is strictly it does n't do any speech recognition does it ? grad a: no . postdoc e: no , it does n't but what a super tool . it 's a great environment . undergrad d: but but is there anyway to to wire a speech recognizer up to it and actually run it through postdoc e: that 's an interesting idea . grad a: we 've we 've thought about doing that postdoc e: hey ! grad a: but the recognition quality is gon na be horrendous . undergrad d: well , a couple things . phd b: wow . undergrad d: first of all the time marking you 'd get you could get by a tool . phd b: that 's true . undergrad d: and so if the if if the issue really postdoc e: that 's interesting . undergrad d: uh , i 'm think about the close caption that you see running by on on live news casts . grad a: most of those are done by a person . undergrad d: you know , yo i know i know that . postdoc e: yeah , i undergrad d: no , i understand . and in a lot of them you see typos and things like that , grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: but it but it occurs to me that it may be a lot easier to correct things than it is to do things from scratch , no matter how wonderful the tool is . grad a: yeah . yeah , we undergrad d: but if if there was a way to merge the two phd c: well , i mean , but sometimes it 's easier to type out something instead of going through and figuring out which is the right grad a: i mean , we 've talked about it postdoc e: that 'd be fun . grad a: but phd c: i mean , it depends on the error rate , right ? undergrad d: well s but but again the timing is for fr should be for free . the timing should be phd c: but we do n't care about the timing of the words . undergrad d: well i thought you just that 's said that was a critical issue . grad a: we do n't care about the timing of the words , just of the utterances . postdoc e: no , uh the the boundary phd c: we cut it s s phd b: we do n't we do n't know , actually . postdoc e: boundary . phd b: we have n't decided which which time we care about , and that 's kind of one of the things that you 're saying , is like you have the option to put in more or less timing data and , uh , be in the absence of more specific instructions , we 're trying to figure out what the most convenient thing to do is . grad a: yeah , so so what what she 's done so far , is sort of more or less breath g not breath groups , { comment } sort of phrases , continuous phrases . phd b: yeah . grad a: and so , um , that 's nice because you you separate when you do an extract , you get a little silence on either end . so that seems to work really well . postdoc e: that 's ideal . grad a: um . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: although i was i you know , the alternative , which i was sort of experimenting with before i ran out of time , recently was , um that , you know , ev if it were like an arbitrary segment of time i t pre - marked cuz it does take time to put those markings in . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: it 's really the i the interface is wonderful because , you know , the time it takes is you listen to it , and then you press the return key . but then , you know , it 's like , uh , you press the tab key to stop the flow and and , uh , the return key to p to put in a marking of the boundary . but , you know , obviously there 's a lag between when you hear it and when you can press the return key phd b: yeah . postdoc e: so it 's slightly delayed , so then you you listen to it a second time and move it over to here . undergrad d: a postdoc e: so that takes time . undergrad d: i a postdoc e: now if it could all be pre - marked at some , l you know , good undergrad d: ar but grad a: hmm . undergrad d: are are those d delays adjustable ? those delays adjustable ? see a lot of people who actually build stuff with human computer interfaces understand that delay , phd b: yeah . undergrad d: and and so when you by the time you click it it 'll be right on because it 'll go back in time to put the postdoc e: yeah . phd b: it could do that postdoc e: yeah , uh , not in this case . grad a: we could program that pretty easily , phd b: could n't it . postdoc e: it has other grad a: could n't we dan ? yeah , mis mister tcl ? phd b: yeah . postdoc e: oh , interesting point . phd b: i would have thought so , yeah . postdoc e: ah ! { comment } interesting point . phd b: mmm . postdoc e: ok , that would make a difference . grad a: but , um postdoc e: i mean , it 's not bad grad a: but , if we tried to do automatic speaker id . postdoc e: but it does take twice . grad a: i mean , cuz primarily the markings are at speaker change . phd b: yeah , yeah , but grad a: but that would be phd b: but we 've got we 've got the most channel data . we 'd have to do it from your signal . right . i mean , we 've we 've got we 've got a lot of data . postdoc e: oh , good point ! ah ! grad a: yeah , i guess the question is how much time will it really save us versus the time to write all the tools to do it . postdoc e: we 've got volume . phd b: right . but the chances are if we if we 're talking about collecting ten or a hundred hours , which is going to take a hundred or a thousand hours to transcribe undergrad d: if grad a: but undergrad d: if we can go from ten x to five x we 're doing a big grad a: we 're gon na need we 're gon na need ten to a hundred hours to train the tools , and validate the tools the do the d to to do all this anyway . phd c: right . so maybe postdoc e: wow . phd b: if we 're just doing silence detection postdoc e: but but it op grad a: i knew you were gon na do that . just saw it coming . postdoc e: i 'm sorry . i wish you had told me wish you 'd told me . undergrad d: put put it on your sweater . postdoc e: at what part ? ok , i 'm alright . phd b: um , i it seems like well , uh , i do n't know . yeah . i mean , it it 's it 's maybe like a week 's work to get to do something like this . so forty or fifty hours . phd c: right . postdoc e: could you get it so that with so it would it would detect volume on a channel and insert a marker ? and the the format 's really transparent . phd b: sure . phd c: yeah . postdoc e: it 's just a matter of a very c clear it 's xml , is n't it ? grad a: mm - hmm . postdoc e: it 's very i mean , i looked at the the file format and it 's just it has a t a time a time indication and then something or other , and then an end time or something or other . phd c: so maybe maybe we could try the following experiment . take the data that you 've already transcribed postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd c: and undergrad d: is this already in the past or already in the future ? phd c: already in the past . undergrad d: you 've already you 've already done some ? grad a: she 's she 's done about half a meeting . phd c: she she 's done one she 's one postdoc e: yes i have . undergrad d: oh - oh , i see . phd c: right . undergrad d: ok , grad a: right ? phd c: right . undergrad d: good . grad a: about half ? phd c: i 'm go postdoc e: s i 'm not sure if it 's that 's much but anyway , enough to work with . phd c: right . phd b: several minutes . phd c: um , and and throw out the words , but keep the time markings . and then go through i mean , and go through and and try and re - transcribe it , given that we had perfect boundary detection . postdoc e: ok . good idea . phd c: and see if it see if it see if it feels easier to you . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: and forgetting all the words because you 've been thr postdoc e: yeah , that 's what i was thinking . i 'd i 'd be cheating a little bit g with familiarity effect . phd c: yeah , i mean uh , that 's part of the problem is , is that what we really need is somebody else to come along . phd b: well , no , you should do it you should do it do it again from scratch and then do it again at the boundaries . so you do the whole thing three times and then we get phd c: yeah . postdoc e: no . now , there 's a plan . undergrad d: and then then w since we need some statistics do it three more . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: and so you 'll get you 'll get down to one point two x by the time you get done . postdoc e: oh , yeah . i 'll do that tomorrow . i should have it finished by the end of the day . undergrad d: no , but the thing is the fact that she 's she 's did it before just might give a lower bound . that 's all . phd b: yeah . phd c: right . undergrad d: uh , which is fine . postdoc e: exactly . undergrad d: it 's and if the lower bound is nine x then w it 's a waste of time . postdoc e: yeah . phd c: right . postdoc e: well , uh but there 's an extra problem which is that i did n't really keep accurate phd b: oh ! postdoc e: uh , it was n't a pure task the first time , phd b: yeah . postdoc e: so uh , it 's gon na be an upper bound in in that case . and it 's not really strictly comparable . so i think though it 's a good proposal to be used on a new a new batch of text that i have n't yet done yet in the same meeting . could use it on the next segment of the text . phd b: the point we where do we get the the the oracle boundaries from ? phd c: right . phd b: or the boundaries . grad a: yeah , one person would have to assign the boundaries and the and the other person would have to postdoc e: well , but could n't i do it for the next phd b: we we we could get fake grad a: i mean that 's easy enough . postdoc e: oh , i see what you mean . grad a: i could do that . postdoc e: well , but the oracle boundaries would come from volume on a partic specific channel would n't they ? grad a: no , no . phd b: that would be the automatic boundaries . phd c: no , no , no , no . you wan na know given given a perfect human segmentation , i mean , you wan na know how well postdoc e: yeah . phd c: i mean , the the question is , is it worth giving you the segmentation ? postdoc e: oh , i see what you mean . grad a: i mean , that that 's easy enough . phd c: right . postdoc e: yeah . grad a: i could generate the segmentation and and you could do the words , and time yourself on it . so . undergrad d: a little double - blind - ear kind of thing . grad a: yep . postdoc e: i see . ok . grad a: so it that might be worth doing . postdoc e: that 's good . i like that . grad a: that would at least tell us whether it 's worth spending a week or two trying to get a tool , that will compute the segmentations . phd c: right . undergrad d: and the thing to keep in mind too about this tool , guys is that sure , you can do the computation for what we 're gon na do in the future but if if uw 's talking about doing two , or three , or five times as much stuff and they can use the same tool , then obviously there 's a real multiplier there . grad a: right . postdoc e: and the other thing too is with with speaker identification , if if that could handle speaker identification that 's a big deal . phd b: well it w phd c: right . undergrad d: well , use it . yeah , that 's why we s bought the expensive microphones . postdoc e: ok . yeah , i mean , that 's a nice feature . grad a: yep . phd b: yeah , yeah . postdoc e: that 's a major that 's like , one of the two things that phd c: i mean , there 's gon na there 's gon na be in the meeting , like the reading group meeting that we had the other day , that 's it 's gon na be a bit of a problem phd b: ok . phd c: because , like , i was n't wearing a microphone phd b: yes . phd c: f and there were other people that were n't wearing microphones . grad a: that undergrad d: but you did n't say anything worth while anyway , right ? grad a: that 'll s phd b: right . phd c: that 's pretty much true postdoc e: yeah . grad a: it might save ninety percent of the work though . phd c: but but , yes . grad a: so . phd b: so i i need to we need to look at what what the final output is but it seems like we it does n't it seems like it 's not really not that hard to have an automatic tool to generate the phrase marks , and the speaker , and speaker identity without putting in the words . grad a: yeah . i 've already become pretty familiar with the format , postdoc e: that 'd be so great . grad a: so it would be easy . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: yeah . yeah . grad a: if you 'd tell me where it is , huh ? postdoc e: we did n't finish the the part of work already completed on this , did we ? i mean , you you talked a little bit about the transcription conventions , grad a: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and , i guess you 've mentioned in your progress report , or status report , that you had written a script to convert it into so , i when i i the it 's quickest for me in terms of the transcription part to say something like , you know , if if adam spoke to , um to just say , `` a colon `` , like who could be , you know , i mean at the beginning of the line . phd b: mmm . postdoc e: and e colon instead of entering the interface for speaker identification and clicking on the thing , uh , indicating the speaker id . so , and then he has a script that will convert it into the the thing that , uh , would indicate speaker id . grad a: it 's pretty cute . postdoc e: if that 's clear . phd c: ok . grad a: but at any rate . so , um , postdoc e: it 's perl script . grad a: right . so so i think the guess at ten x seems to be pretty standard . everyone more or less everyone you talk to says about ten times for hard technical transcription . postdoc e: mm - hmm . undergrad d: using wh using stone age postdoc e: yeah . undergrad d: using stone age tools . postdoc e: that 's right . grad a: using using stone age tools . i mean , i looked at cyber transcriber postdoc e: yeah , well that 's true , but grad a: which is a service that you send an audio file , they do a first - pass speech recognition . and then they they do a clean up . but it 's gon na be horrible . they 're never gon na be able to do a meeting like this . phd b: no . undergrad d: right . postdoc e: what i just approximately , what did you find out in terms of price or or whatever ? grad a: well , for cyber transcriber they do n't quote a price . they want you to call and and talk . so for other services , um , they were about thirty dollars an hour . postdoc e: of of tape ? grad a: thirty so , yeah . postdoc e: or of action ? grad a: for thirty dollars an hour for of their work . postdoc e: ok . ok . oh , of their grad a: so so if it 's ten times it 's three hundred dollars an hour . postdoc e: oh ! phd c: so that 's three that 's three hours . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: d did you talk to anybody that does closed captioning for for uh , tv ? phd c: right . grad a: no . undergrad d: cuz they a usually at the end of the show they 'll tell what the name of the company is , the captioning company that 's doing it . grad a: mm - hmm . yeah , so so my my search was pretty cursory . postdoc e: interesting . grad a: it was just a net search . and , uh , so it was only people who have web pages and are doing stuff through that . undergrad d: well , you know , the the thing the thing about this is thinking kind of , maybe a little more globally than i should here but { comment } that really this could be a big contribution we could make . uh , i mean , we 've been through the stp thing , we know what it what it 's like to to manage the manage the process , and admittedly they might have been looking for more detail than what we 're looking for here but it was a it was a big hassle , right ? phd b: yeah . undergrad d: i mean , uh , you know , they they constantly could 've reminding people and going over it . and clearly some new stuff needs to be done here . and it 's it 's only our time , where `` our `` of course includes dan , dan and you guys . it does n't include me at all . uh . j just seems like phd b: yeah , i mean i do n't know if we 'd be able to do any thing f to help stp type problems . but certainly for this problem we can do a lot better than undergrad d: bec why ? because they wanted a lot more detail ? grad a: right . phd b: no . because they had because they only had two speakers , right ? i mean , the the segmentation problem is grad a: trivial . undergrad d: only had two . grad a: they had two speakers over the telephone . undergrad d: oh , i see . so what took them so long ? grad a: um , mostly because they were doing much lower level time . phd b: yeah . grad a: so they were doing phone and syllable transcription , as well as , uh , word transcription . undergrad d: right . right . phd c: right . postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad a: and so we 're w we decided early on that we were not gon na do that . undergrad d: i see . but there 's still the same issue of managing the process , of of reviewing and keeping the files straight , and all this stuff , that which is clearly a hassle . grad a: yep . phd b: yeah . grad a: right . and so so what i 'm saying is that if we hire an external service i think we can expect three hundred dollars an hour . phd b: yeah . grad a: i think that 's the ball park . there were several different companies that and the the range was very tight for technical documents . twenty - eight to thirty - two dollars an hour . phd c: and who who knows if they 're gon na be able to m manage multal multiple channel data ? phd b: yeah , they wo n't . grad a: they wo n't . phd b: they w they 'll refuse to do it . grad a: we 'll have to mix them . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . phd c: right . phd b: no , but i mean , they they they wo n't they wo n't they will refuse to transcribe this kind of material . postdoc e: and then there 's the problem also that phd b: that 's not what they 're d quoting for , right ? grad a: yes , it is . undergrad d: well , they might they might quote it phd b: for quoting meetings ? grad a: sev - several of them say that they 'll do meetings , and conferences , and s and so on . none of them specifically said that they would do speaker id , or speaker change mark . phd b: wow . yeah . grad a: they all just said transcription . undergrad d: th - th the th there may be just multiplier for five people costs twice as much and for ten people co { comment } something like that . phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . grad a: well , the the way it worked is it it was scaled . so what they had is , if it 's an easy task it costs twenty - four dollars an hour and it will take maybe five or six times real time . and what they said is for the hardest tasks , bad acoustics , meeting settings , it 's thirty - two dollars an hour and it takes about ten times real time . so i think that we can count on that being about what they would do . phd b: i see . yeah . grad a: it would probably be a little more phd b: right . postdoc e: yeah . grad a: because we 're gon na want them to do speaker marking . undergrad d: a lot of companies i 've worked for y the , uh the person leading the meeting , the executive or whatever , would sort of go around the room and and mentally calculate h how many dollars per hour this meeting was costing , grad a: so . undergrad d: right ? in university atmosphere you get a little different thing . but you know , it 's a lot like , `` he 's worth fifty an hour , he 's worth `` and so he so here we 're thinking , `` well let 's see , if the meeting goes another hour it 's going to be another thousand dollars . `` you know ? it 's grad a: yep , we have to have a short meeting . undergrad d: so ch so every everybody ta talk really fast . postdoc e: that 's very interesting . grad a: stop talking ! phd b: yeah . undergrad d: let 's get it over with . postdoc e: talk slowly but with few words . grad a: and clearly . phd b: that 's right . undergrad d: and only talk when you 're pointed to . postdoc e: there you go . grad a: content words only . postdoc e: we could have some telegraphic meetings . that might be interesting . phd b: yeah , it 'd be cheap . undergrad d: phd b: cheap to transcribe . grad a: so . but at any rate , so we we have a ballpark on how much it would cost if we send it out . undergrad d: and we 're talking about do doing how many hours worth of meetings ? grad a: thirty or forty . undergrad d: so thirty or forty thousand dollars . phd b: well , for ten thousand dollars . postdoc e: yeah . phd c: so , meanwhile undergrad d: oh . what well , it was thirty times phd b: three hundred . grad a: three hundred dollars an hour . undergrad d: oh , i 'm sorry , three hundred . grad a: right . undergrad d: right , i w got an extra factor of three there . phd c: so it 's thirty dollars an hour , essentially , right ? undergrad d: yeah . phd c: but we can pay a graduate student seven dollars an hour . and the question is what 's the difference phd b: how how much lower are they ? phd c: or ei eight dollars . what do you know what the going rate is ? it 's it 's on the order of eight to ten . postdoc e: i think uh that would give us a a good good estimate . phd c: i think . but i 'm not sure . postdoc e: i 'd i 'd say phd b: ten . postdoc e: yeah , i was gon na say eight you 'd say ten ? phd c: let 's say ten . phd b: yeah , give them a break . phd c: cuz it 's easier . undergrad d: the - these are not for engineering graduate students , right ? grad a: right , these are linguistics grad students . six . phd c: yeah , i i i do n't i do n't know what the i do n't know what the standard undergrad d: that 's right . phd c: but there is a standard pay scale grad a: mm - hmm . phd c: i just do n't know what it is . postdoc e: yeah , that 's right . that 's right . phd c: um , so that means that even if it takes them thirty times real time it 's cheaper to to do graduate students . postdoc e: and there 's another aspect too . grad a: i mean , that 's why i said originally , that i could n't imagine sending it out 's gon na be cheaper . phd b: no , it is n't . so . postdoc e: the other thing too is that , uh , if they were linguistics they 'd be you know , in terms of like the post editing , i uh tu uh content wise they might be easier to handle cuz they might get it more right the first time . grad a: and also we would have control of i mean , we could give them feedback . whereas if we do a service it 's gon na be limited amount . phd b: yep , yep . postdoc e: mmm . grad a: i mean , we ca n't tell them , you know , `` for this meeting we really wan na mark stress postdoc e: good point . phd b: yep . grad a: and for this meeting we want `` phd b: no . postdoc e: good point . grad a: and and they 're not gon na provide they 're not gon na provide stress , they 're not gon na re provide repairs , they 're not gon na provide they they may or may not provide speaker id . so that we would have to do our own tools to do that . so postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad a: i just phd b: yeah . undergrad d: just hypoth hypothetically assuming that that we go ahead and ended up using graduate students . i who who 's the person in charge ? who 's gon na be the steve here ? grad a: i hope it 's jane . undergrad d: you ? grad a: is that alright ? postdoc e: oh , interesting . um , now would this involve some manner of uh , monetary compensation or would i be the voluntary , uh , coordinator of multiple transcribers for checking ? grad a: um , i would imagine there would be some monetary involved but we 'd have to talk to morgan about it . phd b: yeah , out of out of adam 's pocket . phd c: yeah . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: you know , it just means you have to stop working for dave . see ? postdoc e: oh , undergrad d: that 's why dave should have been here . postdoc e: i do n't wan na stop working for dave . undergrad d: to pr protect his people . grad a: well , i would like you to do it because you have a lot more experience than i do , postdoc e: oh , cool . yeah . grad a: but if if that 's not feasible , i will do it with you as an advisor . postdoc e: uh - huh . undergrad d: w we 'd like you to do it and we 'd like to pay you . postdoc e: we 'll see . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: not being morgan though , it 's postdoc e: ok . phd c: right . postdoc e: oh , i see . phd b: we 'd like to . unfortunately postdoc e: well undergrad d: yeah . postdoc e: yeah . grad a: yeah , six dollars an hour . postdoc e: yeah , i see . phd c: that 's a undergrad d: and and then postdoc e: ok . boy , if i wanted to increase my income i could start doing the transcribing again . phd b: yeah , that 's right . yeah . undergrad d: an an an and be and be sure and say , would you like fries with that when you 're thinking about your pay scale . postdoc e: i see . good . yeah , no , that i i would be interested in that in becoming involved in the project in some aspect like that grad a: ok . more . postdoc e: more . yeah . uh - huh . yeah . grad a: um , any more on transcript we wan na talk about ? phd b: what s so what are you so you 've done some portion of the first meeting . and what 's your plan ? postdoc e: yes . mm - hmm . phd b: to carry on doing it ? postdoc e: what well , you know what i thought was right now we have p so i gave him the proposal for the transcription conventions . he made his , uh , suggestion of improvement . phd b: ok . postdoc e: the the it 's a good suggestion . so as far as i 'm concerned those transcription conventions are fixed right now . and so my next plan would be phd b: what what do they what do they cover ? postdoc e: they 're very minimal . so , it would be good to just to summarize that . so , um , one of them is the idea of how to indicate speaker change , phd b: yeah . postdoc e: and this is a way which meshes well with with , uh , making it so that , uh , you know , on the at the phd b: yeah . postdoc e: boy , it 's such a nice interface . when you when you get the , um you you get the speech signal you also get down beneath it , an indication of , uh , if you have two speakers overlapping in a s in a single segment , you see them one displayed one above each other . and then at the same time the top s part of the screen is the actual verbatim thing . you can clip click on individual utterances and it 'll take you immediately to that part of the speech signal , and play it for you . and you can , eh you can work pretty well between those two these two things . undergrad d: is there a limit to the number of speakers ? grad a: um , the user interface only allows two . and so if if you 're using their interface to specify overlapping speakers you can only do two . phd b: hmm . grad a: but my script can handle any . and their save format can handle any . and so , um , using this the convention that jane and i have discussed , you can have as many overlapping speakers as you want . undergrad d: do y is this a , uh , university project ? phd b: yeah . undergrad d: th - this is the french software , right ? grad a: yeah , french . phd b: yeah , yeah , grad a: yeah . and they 're they 've been quite responsive . phd b: their academic . undergrad d: eh grad a: i 've been exchanging emails on various issues . phd b: oh , really ? undergrad d: uh , did you ask them to change the interface for more speakers ? postdoc e: oh . grad a: yes , and they said that 's on in in the works for the next version . undergrad d: good . phd c: oh , so multi multichannels . undergrad d: good . grad a: multichannels was also well , they said they wanted to do it but that the code is really very organized around single channels . so i think that 's n unlikely to ha happen . phd c: i see . ok . undergrad d: do - do you know what they 're using it for ? why 'd they develop it ? grad a: for this exact task ? phd c: for transcription . undergrad d: are they linguists ? phd c: it 's undergrad d: but i mean , are they are they linguists or are they speech recognition people ? grad a: i think they 're linguists . postdoc e: ho phd b: linguists . postdoc e: hmm . phd b: yeah . phd c: they 're they have some connection to the ldc cuz the ldc has been advising them on this process , the linguistic data consortium . um , undergrad d: mm - hmm . phd c: so but a apart from that . grad a: it 's also all the source is available . phd c: yeah . grad a: so . phd c: right . grad a: if you if you speak tcltk . undergrad d: great . mm - hmm . grad a: and they have they 've actually asked if we are willing to do any development and i said , well , maybe . phd c: right . undergrad d: good . grad a: so if we want if we did if we did something like programmed in a delay , which actually i think is a great idea , um , i 'm sure they would want that incorporated back in . postdoc e: mm - hmm . yeah , i do too . phd b: mm - hmm . undergrad d: their pre pre - lay . phd b: pre - lay . grad a: way . postdoc e: pre - lay . well , and they 've thought about things . you know , i mean , they they do have so you have when you when you play it back , um , it 's it is useful to have , uh , a a break mark to se segment it . but it would n't be strictly necessary cuz you can use the uh , the tabbed key to toggle the sound on and off . i mean , it 'll stop the s speech you know if you if you press a tab . and , um . and so , uh , that 's a nice feature . and then also once you 've put a break in then you have the option of cycling through the unit . you could do it like multiply until you get { comment } crazy and decide to stop cycling through that unit . undergrad d: loop it ? yo - you n you know , there 's al also the the user interface that 's missing . postdoc e: or or or undergrad d: it 's missing from all of our offices , and that is some sort of analog input for something like this . it 's what audio people actually use of course . it 's something that wh when you move your hand further , the sound goes faster past it , like fast forward . you know , like a joy stick or a uh , you could wire a mouse or trackball to do something like that . postdoc e: why , that 's that 's not something i wanted to have happen . undergrad d: no , but i 'm saying if this is what professionals who actually do this kind of thing for for for m for video or for audio where you you need to do this , postdoc e: i see . uh - huh . undergrad d: and so you get very good at sort of jostling back and forth , rather than hitting tab , and backspace , and carriage return , and enter , and things like that . phd b: mmm . mmm . postdoc e: uh - huh . grad a: yeah , we talked about things like foot pedals and other analog phd c: yeah . undergrad d: mm - hmm . grad a: so i mean , tho those are things we could do but i i just do n't know how much it 's worth doing . i mean we 're just gon na have undergrad d: ye - yeah . phd c: yeah . undergrad d: right . postdoc e: yeah , i i agree . they they have several options . so , uh , you know , i mentioned the looping option . another option is it 'll pause when it reaches the end of the boundary . and then to get to the next boundary you just press tab grad a: hmm . postdoc e: and it goes on to the next unit . undergrad d: cool . postdoc e: i mean , it 's very nicely thought out . phd c: hmm . postdoc e: they thought about and also it 'll go around the c the , uh , i wan na say cursor but i 'm not sure if that 's the right thing . grad a: point , whatever . postdoc e: anyway , you can so they thought about different ways of having windows that you c uh work within , phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and but so in terms of the con the conventions , then , uh , basically , uh , it 's strictly orthographic which means with some w provisions for , uh , w uh , colloquial forms . so if a person said , `` cuz `` instead of `` because `` then i put a an apostrophe at the beginning of the word and then in in double ang angle brackets what the full lexical item would be . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and this could be something that was handled by a table or something but i think to have a convention marking it as a non - standard or wha i do n't mean standard but a a a non uh , ortho orthographic , uh , whatever . phd b: mm - hmm . grad a: non - canonical . phd c: mm - hmm . postdoc e: `` gon na `` or `` wan na `` , you know , the same thing . and and there would be limits to how much refinement you want in indicating something as non - standard pres pronunciation . phd c: how are you handling backchannels ? postdoc e: backchannels ? grad a: comments . postdoc e: um , you know oh , yes , there was some in my view , when i when you 've got it densely overlapping , um , i did n't worry about i did n't worry about s specific start times . phd c: what do you mean by du postdoc e: i sort of thought that this is not gon na be { comment } easily processed anyway and maybe i should n't spend too much time getting exactly when the person said `` no `` , or , you know , uh , i `` immediate `` . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: and instead just sort of rendered `` within this time slot , there were two people speaking during part of it phd b: yeah . postdoc e: and if you want more detail , figure it out for yourself `` , phd b: mm - hmm . grad a: well , i think what w what eric was talking about was channels other than the direct speech , phd c: i see . postdoc e: was sort of the way i felt @ @ grad a: right ? phd c: well , yeah , what i mean is wh i mean , when somebody says `` uh - huh `` in the middle of , uh , a @ @ grad a: yep . postdoc e: uh - huh . that happened very seldom . phd c: oh , cuz i was i was listening to dan was agreeing a lot to things that you were saying as you were talking . undergrad d: uh - huh . uh - huh . postdoc e: oh , well , thank you dan . phd c: so . postdoc e: appreciate it . well , if it if there was a word like `` right `` , you know , then i wou i would indicate that it happened within the same tem time frame grad a: yeah , there 's an overlapping mark . phd c: and phd b: yeah . postdoc e: but would n't say exactly when it happened . undergrad d: i 'll be right back . phd b: i transcribed a minute of this stuff phd c: i see . phd b: and there was a lot of overlapping . it was postdoc e: a lot of overlapping , yeah . grad a: well there there 's a lot of overlapping at the beginning and end . phd b: yeah . yeah . grad a: huge amounts . phd b: it was at the beginning . grad a: um , when when no one i when we 're not actually in the meeting , and we 're all sort of separated , and and doing things . but even during the meeting there 's a lot of overlap but it it 's marked pretty clearly . um , some of the backchannel stuff jane had some comments and but i think a lot of them were because you were at the meeting . and so i think that that often often you ca n't tell . postdoc e: yeah , well that 's true . that 's another issue . grad a: i mean , jane had had comments like uh , to who who the person was speaking to . phd c: yeah . postdoc e: yeah . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: only when it was otherwise gon na be puzzling grad a: yeah . postdoc e: because he was in the other room talking . grad a: yeah , but someone who , uh , was just the transcriber would n't have known that . postdoc e: yeah . grad a: or when dan said , `` i wa i was n't talking to you `` . phd c: right . postdoc e: that 's true . i know . undergrad d: so you take a bathroom break in the middle and and keep your head mount grad a: you have to turn off your mike . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: oh , you do ? phd b: you do n't have to . postdoc e: well he was so so he was checking the meter levels and and we were handling things while he was labeling the the whatever it was , the pda ? grad a: mm - hmm . phd b: uh - huh . postdoc e: and and so he was in sort of you were sort of talking you know , so i was saying , like `` and i could label this one left . right ? `` and he and he said , `` i do n't see anything `` . and he said he said , `` i was n't talking to you `` . or it was n't it did n't sound quite that rude . grad a: but postdoc e: but really , no , uh w you know in the context if you know he ca n't hear what he 's saying grad a: but when you w when you listen to it undergrad d: he he it was a lot funnier if you were there though . postdoc e: uh , yeah , grad a: well what what it what happens is if you 're a transcriber listening to it it sounds like dan is just being a total totally impolite . postdoc e: i know . well , you 'll see . you can listen to it . oh , i thought it was you who was . no , well , but you were you were asking off the wall questions . grad a: um but but if you knew that that i was n't actually in the room , and that dan was n't talking to me , it it became ok . so . phd b: i see . undergrad d: so th postdoc e: and that 's w that 's where i added comments . phd c: hmm . postdoc e: the rest of the time i did n't bother with who was talking to who but but this was unusual circum circumstance . undergrad d: so this is this is gon na go on the meeting meeting transcriber bloopers tape , right ? grad a: yes . right . postdoc e: well and part of it was funny , uh reason was because it was a mixed signal so you could n't get any clues from volume that , you know , he was really far away from this conversation . grad a: stereo . yeah . postdoc e: you could n't do that symmetrically in any case . phd b: no . grad a: oh . i should rewrite the mix tool to put half the people in one channel and half in the other . i have a auto - gain - mixer tool that mixes all the head mounted microphones into one signal postdoc e: that 's a good idea . undergrad d: mm - hmm . grad a: and that seems to work really well for the uh transcribers . undergrad d: great . postdoc e: but i thought it would be you know , i i did n't wan na add more contextual comments than were needed but that , it seemed to me , clarified that the con what was going on . and , uh ok , phd c: so , s postdoc e: so normalization phd c: i was just gon na ask , uh , so i just wanted to c sort of finish off the question i had about backchannels , phd b: mmm . phd c: if that 's ok , postdoc e: yeah . ok . phd c: which which was , so say somebody 's talking for a while postdoc e: yeah . phd c: and somebody goes `` mm - hmm `` in the middle of it , and and and what not , does the conversation come out from the or the person who 's speaking for the long time as one segment and then there 's this little tiny segment of this other speaker or does it does the fact that there 's a backchannel split the the the it in two . postdoc e: ok , my my focus was to try and maintain conten con content continuity and , uh , to keep it within what he was saying . like i would n't say breath groups but prosodic or intonational groups as much as possible . so if someone said `` mm - hmm `` in the middle of a of someone 's , uh , uh , intonational contour , i i indicated it as , like what you just did . phd c: ok . postdoc e: then i indicated it as a segment which contained @ @ { comment } this utterance plus an overlap . phd b: but that 's but there 's only one there 's only one time boundary for both speakers , phd c: ok . phd b: right ? postdoc e: yeah , that 's right . and you know , it could be made more precise than that phd c: i see , postdoc e: but i just thought phd c: i see , ok . postdoc e: yeah . phd c: right . undergrad d: i think whenever we use these speech words we should always do the thing like you 're talking about , accent , postdoc e: oh , i see what you mean . and then `` hesitation `` . yeah . ok , and so then , uh , in terms of like words like `` uh `` and `` um `` i just wrote them because i figured there 's a limited number , and i keep them to a uh , limited set because it did n't matter if it was `` mmm `` or `` um `` , { comment } you know , versus `` um `` . so i just always wrote it as u m . phd b: ok . postdoc e: and `` uh - huh `` , you know , `` uhuh . `` i mean , like a s set of like five . but in any case i did n't mark those . phd b: no . phd c: mm - hmm . phd b: `` uh - huh `` is `` u h h u h . `` h u h . `` postdoc e: i 'd be happy with that . that 'd be fine . it 'd be good to have that in the in the conventions , what 's to be used . phd c: huh - uh . grad a: i i did notice that there were some segments that had pauses on the beginning and end . we should probably mark areas that have no speakers as no speaker . then , so question mark colon is fine for that . postdoc e: yeah , that 's a fine idea . that 's a fine idea . grad a: just say silence . undergrad d: well , what 's that mean ? postdoc e: yeah , ok . yeah . undergrad d: you mean re grad a: no one 's talking . undergrad d: ye s oh . silence all around . grad a: yep . undergrad d: yep . phd b: we have to mark those ? postdoc e: so i had phd b: do n't they d ca n't we just leave them unmarked ? postdoc e: i d well , you see , that 's possible too . grad a: well , i wan na leave the marked i do n't want them to be part of another utterance . so you just you need to have the boundary at the start and the end . phd b: ok . sure . postdoc e: mm - hmm . now that 's refinement that , uh , maybe it could be handled by part of the part of the script or something more phd b: uh , yeah , it seems like it seems like the , uh , tran the transcription problem would be very different if we had these automatic speaker detection turn placing things . because suddenly i mean , i do n't know , actually it sounds like there might be a problem putting it into the software if the software only handles two parallel channels . but assuming we can get around that somehow . postdoc e: mm - hmm . well you were saying , i think it can read grad a: it can read and write as many as you want , it 's just that it postdoc e: uh - huh . phd b: but what if you wan na edit it ? right ? i mean , the point is we 're gon na generate this transcript with five five tracks in it , but with no words . someone 's gon na have to go in and type in the words . um , and if there are five five people speaking at once , grad a: right , i it 's i did n't explain it well . if we use the the little the conventions that jane has established , i have a script that will convert from that convention to their saved convention . phd b: oh , yeah . yes . postdoc e: which allows five . grad a: right . postdoc e: and it can be m edited after the fact , grad a: yes . postdoc e: ca n't it also ? but their but their format , if you wanted to in indicate the speakers right there instead of doing it through this indirect route , then i they a c window comes up and it only allows you to enter two speakers . phd b: yeah . right . undergrad d: but you 're saying that by the time you call it back in to from their saved format it opens up a window with window with five speakers ? postdoc e: so . but . grad a: right . undergrad d: oh ! that is sort of f grad a: it 's just user interface . undergrad d: they did n't quite go the whole grad a: so i it 's undergrad d: yeah , they did n't go the whole route , grad a: the the the whole saved form the saved format and the internal format , all that stuff , handles multiple speakers . undergrad d: did they ? they just grad a: it 's just there 's no user interface for specifying multiple any more than two . undergrad d: right . so your your script solves does n't it solve all our problems , postdoc e: and that grad a: yep . undergrad d: cuz we 're always gon na wan na go through this preprocessing grad a: yep . undergrad d: uh , assuming it works . grad a: yep . postdoc e: and that works nicely cuz this so quick to enter . so i would n't wan na do it through the interface anyway adding which worry who the speaker was . grad a: yep . undergrad d: i see . right . good . postdoc e: and then , uh , let 's see what else . oh , yes , i i wanted to have so sometimes a pers i uh in terms of like the continuity of thought for transcriptions , it 's i it is n't just words coming out , it 's like there 's some purpose for an utterance . and sometimes someone will do a backchannel in the middle of it but you wan na show that it 's continued at a later point . so i have i have a convention of putting like a dash arrow just to indicate that this person 's utterance continues . and then when it uh , catches back up again then there 's an arrow dash , and then you have the opposite direction to indicate continuation of ones own utterance versus , um , sometimes we had the situation which is you know , which you which you get in conversations , { comment } of someone continuing someone else 's utterance , phd b: mmm . postdoc e: and in that case i did a tilde arrow versus a arrow tilde , to indicate that it was continuation but it was n't oh , i guess i did equal arrow for the for the own for yourself things phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: cuz it 's the speakers the same . and then tilde arrow if it was a different if a different speaker , uh , con continuation . phd b: mmm . grad a: oh . postdoc e: but just , you know , the arrows showing continuation of a thought . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and then you could track whether it was the same speaker or not by knowing you know , at the end of this unit you 'd know what happened later . and that was like this person continued phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and you 'd be able to look for the continuation . grad a: so phd b: but the only time that becomes ambiguous is if you have two speakers . like , if you if you only have one person , if you only have one thought that 's continuing across a particular time boundary , you just need one arrow at each end , and if it 's picked up by a different speaker , it 's picked up by a different speaker . the time it becomes ambiguous if you have more than one speaker and that and they sort of swap . i guess if you have more than one thread going , then you then you need to know whether they were swapped or not . postdoc e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd c: how often does that happen do you think ? postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: hopefully not very much . postdoc e: yeah , i did n't use it very often . grad a: especially for meetings . i mean , if i if you were just recording someone 's day , it would be impossible . you know , undergrad d: it l ou grad a: if you were trying to do a remembrance agent . but i think for meetings it 's probably alright . phd c: hmm . grad a: but , a lot of these issues , i think that for uh , from my point of view , where i just wan na do speech recognition and information retrieval , it does n't really matter . phd b: sure . grad a: but other people have other interests . phd b: i know . grad a: so . phd b: but it it does feel it does feel like it 's really in there . i you know i did this i did this transcription and i marked that , i marked it with ellipsis because it seemed like there was a difference . it 's something you wanted to indicate that it that i this was the end of the phrase , this was the end of that particular transcript , but it was continued later . grad a: right . phd b: and i picked up with an ellipsis . postdoc e: excellent . yeah . phd b: i did n't have the equal , not equal thing . postdoc e: yeah . well that 's you know , i mean i that 's why i did n't { comment } i did n't do it n i mean , that 's why i thought about it , and and re - ev phd b: yeah , yeah . postdoc e: and it did n't do i did n't do it in ten times the the time . grad a: well , so anyway , are we interested then in writing tools to try to generate any of this stuff automatically ? postdoc e: yeah . grad a: is that something you want to do , dan ? phd b: no . grad a: no . phd b: but it 's something @ @ that i feel we definitely ought to do . postdoc e: i also wanted to ask you if you have a time estimate on the part that you transcribed . do you have a sense of how long phd b: yeah , it took me half an hour to transcribe a minute , but i did n't have any i did n't even have a postdoc e: ok . phd b: i was trying to get transcriber to run but i could n't . so i was doing it by typ typing into a text file and trying to fit it was horrible . postdoc e: ok . ok . undergrad d: so thirty to one 's what you got ? phd b: mm - hmm . undergrad d: so that 's a new upper limit ? phd b: yeah . postdoc e: well , i mean , that 's that 's because you did n't have the segmentation help and all the other grad a: but i think for a first try that 's about right . phd b: is it phd c: so so if we hired a who if we hired a whole bunch of dan 's undergrad d: that 's right . postdoc e: yeah . phd b: it was actually it was quite it was a t undergrad d: a grad a: if we hire an infinite number of dan 's phd b: it w undergrad d: it 'd b a a postdoc e: and there 's always a warm up thing of grad a: are we gon na run out of disk space by the way ? phd b: yeah . grad a: ok , phd b: no . grad a: good . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: d does n't it beep in the other room when you 're out of disk space ? phd c: so is there grad a: no . phd c: maybe we should s consider also , um , starting to build up a web site around all of these things . phd b: web site ! that 's great ! phd c: i know . grad a: dan 's sort of already started . phd b: we could have like business - to - business e - commerce as well ! phd c: that 's right . no , but i 'm it would be interesting it would be interesting to see grad a: can we sell banner ads ? undergrad d: get get paid for click - throughs ? grad a: what a good idea , phd b: yeah . grad a: that 's how we could pay for the transcription . phd c: i want to introduce i i want to introduce the word `` snot - head `` into the conversation at this point . phd b: we can have undergrad d: you wan na word that wo n't be recognized ? phd c: you see , cuz uh , cuz exactly . um . postdoc e: oh , i do n't think so . phd c: no . grad a: hey , what about me ? phd c: the r w what ok . postdoc e: you 're the one who raised the issue . phd c: no . alright , see here 's here 's here 's my thought behind it which is that , uh , the the stuff that you 've been describing , jane , i gu one has to , of course indicate , { comment } um , i is very interesting , postdoc e: alright . phd c: and i i 'd like to be able to to pore through , you know , the the types of tr conventions that you 've come up with and stuff like that . phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . phd c: so i would like to see that kind of stuff on the web . postdoc e: ok , now , w the alternative to a web site would be to put it in doctor speech . phd b: yes . yes . postdoc e: cuz cuz what i have is a soft link to my transcription that i have on my account phd c: either 's fine . phd b: we c postdoc e: but it does n't matter . grad a: we can do it all . phd b: we can do it all ! we can write postdoc e: ok . phd b: oh . postdoc e: web site 's nice . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: then you have to t you have to do an ht access . undergrad d: web site 's what ? phd b: we could actually maybe we could use the tcl plug - in . oh , man . postdoc e: ooo ! he 's committed himself to something . phd c: ow . see he said the word tcl and and that 's undergrad d: but he does such a good job of it . he should be allowed to to , you know , w do it . postdoc e: i know , i know . phd b: i know , but that but , i right . but i should be allowed to but undergrad d: if you just did a crappy job , no nobody would want you to do it . phd b: i sh i should n't be allowed to by m by my own by my according to my own priorities . alright . let 's look at it anyway . so definitely we should we should have some kind of access to the data . grad a: and we have we have quite a disparate number of web and other sorts of documents on this project sort of spread around . phd c: yeah . grad a: i have several and dan has a few , phd b: yes . grad a: and phd c: right , so we can add in links and stuff like that to other things . postdoc e: ah ! grad a: yep . postdoc e: nice . phd b: well , yeah . phd c: the phd b: well so then th grad a: try try to s consolidate . i mean , who wants to do that though ? phd b: the other side is , yeah . phd c: uh , right . grad a: no one wants to do that . so . postdoc e: yeah . phd b: right , that 's the problem . phd c: well , we could put we could put sort of a disorganized sort of group gestalt undergrad d: why ? what what 's what 's the issue ? phd b: no one owns the project . undergrad d: no one what ? phd b: no one owns the project . grad a: yeah , i own the project but i do n't wan na do it . phd b: no one wants to own the project . phd c: right . undergrad d: w well do but grad a: it 's mine ! all mine ! phd b: well then you have to do the web site . undergrad d: but grad a: `` wah - hah - hah - hah - hah - hah . `` phd b: you know , it 's like , it 's that simple . undergrad d: b but but but what are you what are you talking about for web site hacking ? phd b: no undergrad d: you 're talking about writing html , right ? grad a: yeah , i i 'm talking about putting together all the data in a form that that is legible , and pleasant to read , and up to date , and et cetera , et cetera , et cetera . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: but , is it against the law to actually use a tool to help your job go easier ? grad a: absolutely . it 's it 's absolutely against the law to use a tool . i have n't found any tools that i like . undergrad d: you y grad a: it 's just as easy to use to edit the raw html as anything else . undergrad d: no kidding ? phd b: that 's obviously not true , grad a: it 's obviously not true . phd b: but you have undergrad d: no , it it it 's obviously true that he has n't found any he likes . phd b: right . that 's true . undergrad d: the question is what is what 's he looked at . postdoc e: which one do you use jim ? undergrad d: i use something called trellix . postdoc e: oh , that 's right . i remember . yeah . undergrad d: and it postdoc e: which produces also site maps . grad a: now , i guess if i were if i were doing more powerful excuse me more complex web sites i might want to . undergrad d: it 's - it it 's very powerful . grad a: but most of the web sites i do are n't that complex . postdoc e: well , would this be to document it also for outside people or mainly for in house use ? grad a: but . i think both . phd c: no , i think in grad a: mostly in house . phd b: that 's right . phd c: i think mostly internal . undergrad d: well , yeah , postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: but what does internal mean ? phd b: no , both . undergrad d: i mean , you 're leaving . people at uw wan na look at it . i mean , it 's it 's internal { comment } until phd c: right . internal to the project . undergrad d: i see . postdoc e: we could do an ht access which would accommodate those things . phd b: i i i i grad a: ok , well , send me links and i wi send me pointers , rather , and i 'll put it together . phd b: i 'm not o postdoc e: wonderful . phd b: ok . i 'm not sure how how important that distinction is . i do n't think we should say , `` oh , it 's internal therefore we do n't have to make it very good `` . i mean , you can say `` oh oh , it 's internal phd c: no . no . phd b: therefore we can put data in it that we do n't we do n't have to worry about releasing `` . but i think the point is to try and be coherent and make it a nice presentation . undergrad d: right . i agree . postdoc e: yeah , it is true , that is it benefits to undergrad d: cuz you 're gon na have to wor do the work sooner or later . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: that 's right . i mean , it 's the early on . undergrad d: even if it 's just writing things up . grad a: yep . undergrad d: you know ? postdoc e: it 's a great idea . grad a: ok , um , let 's move on to electronics . phd b: ah . great . undergrad d: d we we out of tape out of disk ? phd b: no , we 're doing we 're doing great . undergrad d: i i was looking for the actual box i plan to use , uh , but i c all i could i could n't find it at the local store . but this is the the technology . it 's actually a little bit thinner than this . and it 's two by two , by one , and it would fit right under the right under th the the the the lip , grad a: yeah , does everyone know about the lip on the table ? it 's great . undergrad d: yeah . there 's a lip in these tables . postdoc e: nice . undergrad d: and , it oc i p especially brought the bottom along to try and generate some frequencies that you may not already have recorded . grad a: clink ! clink ! undergrad d: let 's see see what it does to the but this was the uh just just to review , and i also brought this { comment } along rather than the projector so we can put these on the table , and sort of w push them around . grad a: and and crinkle them and phd b: what ? postdoc e: and th `` that `` being a diagram . phd b: what ? undergrad d: that that 's the six tables that we 're looking at . these six tables here , with with little boxes sort of , uh , in the middle here . phd b: i see . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: which es would i mean , the the boxes are pretty much out of the way anyway . i 'll - i 'll show you the the cro this is the table cross section . i do n't know if people realize what they 're looking at . phd b: you trying to screw up the m the microphones ? grad a: yes . he is . absolutely . phd b: i mean th undergrad d: well why not ? i mean , cuz this is what 's gon na happen . you got plenty of data . i wo n't come to your next meeting . and and and you so this is the box 's grad a: get your paper off my pda ! phd b: yeah . postdoc e: yeah , let let the record show that this is exhibit two b . undergrad d: that 's right . `` or not to be `` . yeah , yeah . grad a: yeah . undergrad d: uh , the box , uh there 's a half inch lip here . the box is an inch thick so it hangs down a half an inch . and so the the two head set jacks would be in the front and then the little led to indicate that that box is live . the the important issue about the led is the fact that we 're talking about eight of these total , which would be sixteen channels . and , uh , even though we have sixteen channels back at the capture , they 're not all gon na be used for this . phd b: hmm . undergrad d: so there 'd be a subset of them used for obviously j just use the ones at this end for for this many . so excuse me . you 'd like a a way to tell whether your box is live , so the led would n't be on . phd b: right . all the lights . undergrad d: so if you 're plugged in it does n't work and the led is off that 's that 's a tip off . and then the , uh would wire the all of the cables in a in a bundle come through here and o obviously collect these cables at the same time . postdoc e: that 's good . undergrad d: uh , so this this notion of putting down the p z ms and taking them away would somehow have to be turned into leaving them on the table grad a: right . well , we wan na do that definitely . undergrad d: or or right . grad a: so . undergrad d: right . and so the you we just epoxy them down or something . big screw into the table . phd b: velcro . undergrad d: uh , and even though there 's eight cables they 're not really very big around so my model is to get a a a p piece of grad a: sleeve . undergrad d: yeah , that that stuff that people put with the little you slip the wires into that 's sort of shaped like that cross section . grad a: oh . ok , not just sleeve them all ? undergrad d: yeah . i 'm i 'm r a i 'm going up and then i 'm going down . grad a: and leave them loose ? phd b: no . postdoc e: that looks like a semi - circle . phd b: yeah . it 's like a it 's a sleeping policeman . grad a: whoo ! phd b: speed bump ! postdoc e: sleeping pol phd b: speed bump . grad a: speed a `` sleeping policeman `` ! undergrad d: yeah , it 's like a speed bum an postdoc e: speed bump . that 's good . there we go s grad a: cool . undergrad d: and they 're ac they 're actually ext extruded from plastic . phd c: what is undergrad d: they sorta look like this . grad a: oh . phd c: what does that mean ? phd b: that 's the s that 's british for speed bump , phd c: is it a speed bump ? undergrad d: so that the wires go through here . phd b: yeah . phd c: wow . postdoc e: oh , is that right ? phd b: yeah . postdoc e: i never heard that . grad a: that 's really cruel . undergrad d: so . postdoc e: ah ! grad a: ok , so that undergrad d: s so it would c basically go on the diagonal here . phd c: it could go either way . grad a: so why do we have sixteen channels instead of like some fewer number ? phd b: yeah . phd c: i guess . undergrad d: uh , because the phd b: how else are you gon na distribute them around the tables ? undergrad d: because they 're there . grad a: well , ok , let me rephrase that . why two each ? phd b: oh , because then you do n't have to just have one each . so that if t if you have two people sitting next to each other they can actually go into the same box . undergrad d: yeah . grad a: ok . undergrad d: and to see , thi this is really the way people sit on this table . th grad a: ok . postdoc e: mm - hmm . undergrad d: uh . dot , dot , dot . postdoc e: which means two at each station . undergrad d: well that that 's the way people sit . that 's how many chairs are in the room . postdoc e: yeah . grad a: alright . postdoc e: yeah , i 'm just saying that for the recording . undergrad d: yeah . grad a: right . undergrad d: right . grad a: ok . undergrad d: and certainly you could do a thing where all sixteen were plugged in . grad a: but then none of these . undergrad d: uh if if you ha if you had nothing else . grad a: right . n none of these and no p z ms then . undergrad d: yeah . right . right . i agree . phd b: only if you had well it depends on this box , right ? undergrad d: oh , true enough . and actually , at the m my plan is to only bring eight wires out of this box . phd b: exactly . grad a: oh , i did n't understand undergrad d: this this box thi - thi thi this box is a one off deal . postdoc e: that being the wiring box . grad a: oh , i see , i see . undergrad d: uh . and , uh , it 's function is to s to , uh , essentially a wire converter to go from these little blue wires to these black wires , plus supply power to the microphones cuz the the he the , uh , cheap head mounteds all require low voltage . grad a: so so you 'd imagine some sort of in some sort of patch panel on top to figure out what the mapping was between each d of these two and each of those one or what ? phd b: hmm ! undergrad d: well i w i i the simplest thing i could imagine , i which is really , really simple is to quite literally that these things plug in . and there 's a there 's a plug on the end of each of these these , uh , ei eight cables . postdoc e: what phd b: yeah . postdoc e: ok . each of the blue wires ? phd b: but there are only four . undergrad d: an - and there 's only there 's only four slots that are you know , in in the first version or the version we 're planning to to build . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . grad a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: so that that was the whole issue with the led , that you plug it in , the led comes on , and and and you 're live . grad a: oh , then it comes on . i see , i see . ok , good . undergrad d: now the the the subtle issue here is that tha i i have n't really figured out a solution for this . so , we it 'll have to be convention . what happens if somebody unplugs this because they plug in more of something else ? grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: well the there 's no clever way to let the up stream guys know that you 're really not being powered . so th there will be a certain amount of looking at cables has to be done if people , uh , rewire things . grad a: right . phd b: yeah , i mean , we i had that last time . undergrad d: but . phd b: but uh there are actually that you know , there 's an extra there 's a mix out on the radio receiver ? undergrad d: mm - hmm . phd b: so there are actually six xlr outs on the back of the radio receiver and only five cables going in , i had the wrong five , so i ended up not recording one of the channels and recording the mix . undergrad d: how interesting . d did you do any recognition on the mix mix out ? postdoc e: hmm . phd b: no . undergrad d: wonder whether it works any phd b: but i subtracted the four that i did have from the mix and got a pretty good approximation of the @ @ . undergrad d: got the fifth ? grad a: you g undergrad d: cool . postdoc e: oh , how great . grad a: and did it work ? phd b: yeah . grad a: did it sound good ? phd b: it 's not bad . undergrad d: is it is phd b: it 's not bad , grad a: wow . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: ai n't science wonderful ? postdoc e: that 's amazing . phd b: yeah . grad a: so what 's the schedule on these things ? undergrad d: so phd b: but , you always postdoc e: wow . undergrad d: uh , well i was wrestling with th with literally the w number of connectors in the cable and the the , uh , powering system . and i i was gon na do this very clever phantom power and i decided a couple days ago not to do it . phd b: hmm ! undergrad d: so i 'm ready to build it . which is to say , uh , the neighborhood of a week to get the circuit board done . grad a: mm - hmm . so i think the other thing i 'd like to do is , do something about the set up phd b: see grad a: so that it 's a little more presentable and organized . undergrad d: i agree . grad a: and i 'm i 'm just not sure what that is . i mean , some sort of cabinet . undergrad d: well i can build a cabinet . the the difficulty for this kind of project is the intellectual capital to design the cabinet . grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: in other words , to figure out ex exactly what the right thing is . that cabinet can can go away . we can use that for for uh kindling or something . but if you can imagine what the right form factor is . dan - dan and i have sort of gone around on this , and we were thinking about something that opened up in the top to allow access to the mixer for example . grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: but there 's these things sticking out of the mixer which are kind of a pain , so you end up with this thing that if if you stuck the mixer up here and the top opened , it 'd be it 'd be fine . you would n't necessarily well , you s understand what i 'm grad a: yeah , i understand . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: the the you can you can start start s sketching it out , grad a: so . undergrad d: and i can certainly build it out of oak no problem , would it you know , arb you know , arbitrarily amount of grad a: i need a desk at home too , alright ? is that gon na be a better solution than just going out and buy one ? undergrad d: well , the as we found out with the the thing that , uh , jeff bought a long time ago to hold our stereo system the stuff you buy is total crap . and i mean this is something you buy . grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: and and grad a: and it 's total crap . undergrad d: it 's total crap . well , it 's useless for this function . works fine for holding a kleenex , grad a: right , kleenex and telephones . undergrad d: but it right . grad a: um , so yeah , i g i guess it 's just a question , is that something you wan na spend your time on ? undergrad d: oh , i i 'm paid for . grad a: ok , great . undergrad d: i have no problem . no , but w certainly one of the issues is is the , uh is security . grad a: hmm ? mm - hmm . undergrad d: i mean , we 've been been been lax and lucky . grad a: lax . phd b: yeah . yep . undergrad d: really lucky with these things . but they 're not ours , so phd b: yeah . undergrad d: the , uh the flat panels . phd b: oh , yeah ! grad a: i 'm telling you , i 'm just gon na cart one of them away if they stay there much longer . phd b: well w yeah , exactly . undergrad d: uh , let the record show at uh at f four thirty - five adam janin says postdoc e: wow . tempting . phd b: we 'll know we 'll know to come after . postdoc e: tempting . yeah . grad a: so , um , j uh , then the other question is do we wan na try to do a user interface that 's available out here ? phd b: sorry ? undergrad d: slipped almost slipped it by dan . postdoc e: use - user interface grad a: a user interface . i mean , do we wan na try to get a monitor ? or just something . phd b: oh ! sure . postdoc e: oh . phd b: well of course we do . grad a: and how do we want to do that ? postdoc e: you mean like see see meter readings , from while sitting here . grad a: j just so we see something . postdoc e: wow . undergrad d: how about use the thing that um aciri 's doing . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: which is to say just laptop with a wireless . phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . sure . postdoc e: oh . phd b: which we 'll borrow from them , when we need it . undergrad d: what 's wrong with yours ? if we bought you a a phd b: oh , a applecard . sure . right . yeah , you could use my machine . phd c: well undergrad d: what ? grad a: i have an iram machine i 've borrowed and we can use it . phd b: i or the undergrad d: n no , i 'm i 'm i 'm serious . does does the wireless thing work on your grad a: wait , is n't that an ethernet connection or is that a phone ? phd b: uh , that 's an ethernet connection . grad a: well phd b: it 's going next door . undergrad d: yeah no no i 'm a i i i ai n't joking here . grad a: we jus undergrad d: i 'm serious , that that it it phd b: yeah . no , no , absolutely , that 's the right way to do it . t to have it uh , just undergrad d: it 's very convenient especially if dan happens to be sitting at that end of the table to not have to run down here and and look in the thing every so often , phd b: yeah . and given given that we 've got a wireless that we 've got a we got the field . undergrad d: but just have the it 's right there . phd b: right . undergrad d: right ? the antenna 's right there , grad a: right . phd b: yeah . yeah . undergrad d: right outside the phd b: i do n't know . undergrad d: y i mean , we need obviously need to clear this with aciri but , uh , how tough can that be ? there it you 'd all you need 's web access , is n't it ? phd b: w we do n't need x access undergrad d: in in theory . phd b: but i mean that 's fine . that 's that 's what it does , undergrad d: ok , phd b: yeah . undergrad d: great , great . grad a: um , phd b: so grad a: right , so it 's just a question of getting a laptop and a wireless modem . phd b: with a with a with a w undergrad d: no , and he he had , reque @ @ my my proposal is you have a laptop . phd b: no . yeah . i do ! undergrad d: you do n't ? phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah . undergrad d: if if we bought you the thing would you mind using it with i the the phd b: no , i would love to but i 'm not sure if my laptop is compatible with the wave lan thing they 're using . undergrad d: really ? grad a: to mac . phd b: well apple has their own thing , right ? phd c: he 's undergrad d: your new one ? grad a: airport . undergrad d: i 'm sorry ? phd b: apple has their own thing . and undergrad d: i thought it just came through a serial p or an ethernet port . phd b: yeah , i think what i think you i think it just plug plugs in a pc card , so you could probably make it run with that , but . grad a: the question is , is there an apple driver ? undergrad d: i e phd b: yeah , i 'm sure . i imagine there is . but uh anyway there are there are abs there are a bunch of machines at icsi that have those cards undergrad d: but the two t phd b: and so i think if w if it does n't we should be able to find a machine that does that . i i mean i know that does n't do n't do n't the important people have those little blue vaios that undergrad d: well , uh , b that to me that 's a whole nother . that 's a whole nother issue . postdoc e: hmm . hmm . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: the the idea of con convincing them that we should use their network i is fairly straight forward . phd b: yeah . yeah . undergrad d: the idea of being able to walk into their office and say , `` oh , can i borrow your machine for a while `` , is is is a non - starter . phd b: yeah . i see . undergrad d: that i i do n't think that 's gon na work . so , i mean , either either we figure out how to use a machine somebody already in the group already owns , a a and the idea is that if it 's it perk , you know , it 's an advantage not not a disadvan { comment } or else we we literally buy a machine e exactly for that purpose . phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah . absolutely . yeah . undergrad d: certainly it solves a lot of the problems with leaving a monitor out here all the time . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: i i i i 'm i 'm not a big fan of doing things to the room that make the room less attractive for other people , grad a: right . undergrad d: right ? which is part of the reason for getting all this stuff out of the way grad a: yeah . undergrad d: and and , so a monitor sitting here all the time you know people are gon na walk up to it and go , `` how come i ca n't get , you know , pong on this `` or , whatev grad a: mm - hmm . right . i 've i 've borrowed the iram vaio sony thingy , phd c: well grad a: and i do n't think they 're ever gon na want it back . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: right . phd b: you 're kidding ! undergrad d: well , the next conference they will . grad a: so . sure . undergrad d: yeah . grad a: but that does mean so we can use that as well . undergrad d: well , uh , the certainly , u you should give it a shot first see whether you you can get compatible stuff . phd b: mm - hmm . undergrad d: uh , ask them what it costs . ask them if they have an extra one . who knows , they might have an extra hardware s phd b: i 'd trade them a flat panel display for it . yeah . phd c: what is the , um , projector supposed to be hooked up to ? undergrad d: good . uh , the , uh tsk . it 's gon na be hooked up to all sorts of junk . there 's gon na be actually a a plug at the front that 'll connect to people 's laptops so you can walk in and plug it in . and it 's gon na be con connected to the machine at the back . so we certainly could use that as as a constant reminder of what the vu meters are doing . phd b: huge vu meters . undergrad d: so people sitting here { comment } are going `` testing , one , two , three `` ! phd c: but i mean , that 's another that 's another possibility that , you know , solves undergrad d: it a phd b: yeah . undergrad d: yeah . phd b: that 's an end undergrad d: but but but i think the idea of having a control panel it 's that 's there in front of you is really cool . phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: i think and uh , having having it on wireless is is the neatest way neatest way to do it . undergrad d: r grad a: i had undergrad d: as long as you d as l as long as you 're not tempted to sit there and f keep fiddling with the volume controls going , `` can you talk a bit louder ? `` phd b: yeah . grad a: i had actually earlier asked if i could borrow one of the cards to do wireless stuff phd b: yeah . grad a: and they said , `` sure , whenever you want `` . so i think it wo n't be a problem . phd b: oh , cool . ok . undergrad d: and and it 's a a pcmcia card , right ? grad a: yep . undergrad d: pc card , grad a: pc card . undergrad d: so you can have a slot , phd b: yeah , yeah . undergrad d: right ? in your new machine ? phd c: it 's it really come down to the driver . undergrad d: is it with s phd b: yeah . phd c: i mean grad a: right , i mean , and if and if his does n't work , as i said , we can use the pc . undergrad d: right , i it 'll it 'll work it 'll work the first time . i i trust steve jobs . grad a: good . phd b: um , grad a: so phd b: well , that sounds like a d good solution one way or the other . grad a: so jim is gon na be doing wiring and you 're gon na give some thought to cabinets ? undergrad d: uh , y yeah . grad a: great . undergrad d: we we need to figure out what we want . uh phd b: we 'd i think undergrad d: hey , what are those green lights doing ? grad a: they 're flashing ! phd b: uh - oh ! uh - oh ! does that it means it means it 's gon na explode . no . undergrad d: cut the red wire , the red wire ! phd b: um grad a: when people talk , it they go on and off . phd b: this so again , washington wants to equip a system . our system , we spent ten thousand dollars on equipment not including the pc . however , seven and a half thousand of that was the wireless mikes . uh , undergrad d: mm - hmm . phd b: using using these undergrad d: and it and the f the five thousand for the wires , so if i 'm gon na do no . phd b: yeah , undergrad d: it 's a joke . phd b: that 's true undergrad d: i have to do phd b: but we have n't spent that , right ? but once we once we 've done the intellectual part of these , uh , we can just knock them out , right ? grad a: cheap . phd b: we can start we you can make a hundred of them or something . undergrad d: oh , of the of the boards ? yeah , yeah , sure , right . phd b: and then we could washington could have a system that did n't have any wireless but would had what 's based on these undergrad d: mm - hmm . phd b: and it would cost grad a: a pc and a peanuts . undergrad d: peanuts . phd b: pc and two thousand dollars for the a - to - d stuff . grad a: yeah . phd b: and that 's about cuz you would n't even need the mixer if you did n't have the oh th the p z undergrad d: right . phd b: p z ms cost a lot . but anyway you 'd save , on the seven seven or eight thousand for the for the wireless system . so actually that might be attractive . undergrad d: right . grad a: good . phd b: ok , i can move my thumb now . postdoc e: that 's a great idea . undergrad d: what ? postdoc e: it 's nice it 's nice to be thinking toward that . undergrad d: oh , i thought like if we talked softer the disk lasts longer . grad a: well , actually shorten phd b: yeah . grad a: there 's a speech compression program that works great on things like this , cuz if the dynamic range is low it encodes it with fewer bits . and so most of the time no one 's talking so it shortens it dramatically . but if you talk quieter , the dynamic range is lower and it will compress better . so . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: oh . hmm . undergrad d: it also helps if you talk in a monotone . grad a: probably . undergrad d: constant volume all the time . postdoc e: oh , interesting . and shorter words . grad a: shorter words . phd c: now , shorter words would n't would induce more dynamics , right ? you want to have phd b: yeah , but if the words are more predictable . grad a: how about if you just go `` uh `` ? phd c: huh . undergrad d: uh . postdoc e: that 's a long word ! grad a: how do you spell that ? postdoc e: i do n't know . grad a: ok , can you do one more round of digits ? are we done talking ? undergrad d: well it 's a choice if we get a choice , let 's keep talking . grad a: do we have more to talk about ? undergrad d: sure . no , i 'm done . phd c: i 'm done . grad a: are you done ? postdoc e: i 'm done , grad a: i 'm done . postdoc e: yeah . phd c: dan is n't but he 's not gon na say anything . undergrad d: but you you you there 's a problem a structural problem with this though . you really need an incentive at the end if you 're gon na do digits again . like , you know , candy bars or something , grad a: i 'll i 'll remember to bring m and m 's next time . undergrad d: or or or or or a little , uh you know , toothbrushes like they give you at the d dentist . phd b: mmm ! postdoc e: or both . undergrad d: or both . phd b: sorry . undergrad d: eric , you and i win . we did n't make any mistakes . grad a: it 's harder at the end than at the beginning . postdoc e: we do n't know that for sure , do we ? grad a: i should have mentioned that s uh , to pause between lines but undergrad d: no , i know . i 'm just giving you a hard time . grad a: it 's it 's only a hard time for the transcriber not for the speech recognizer . phd b: tha - tha postdoc e: but i also think you said channel four grad a: me . postdoc e: and i think you meant microphone four . and i think that 's a mistake . undergrad d: very good . so eric , you win . but the other thing is that there 's a there 's a colon for transcripts . and there should n't be a colon . because see , everything else is stuff you fill in . phd b: yeah , that 's been filled in for you . undergrad d: right ? automatically . phd b: but they 're in order ! undergrad d: but real phd b: they start , six , seven , eight , nine , zero , one , two , three , four , five , six , eight , nine . undergrad d: where 'd they come from ? phd b: and they 're in order because they 're sorted lexically by the file names , which are have the numbers in digits . postdoc e: oh . phd b: and so they 're actually this is like all the all utterances that were generated by speaker mpj or something . postdoc e: oh . phd b: and then within mpj they 're sorted by what he actually said . grad a: ugh ! i did n't know that . i should have randomized it . postdoc e: wow . phd b: it does n't matter ! it 's like cuz you said `` six , seven , eight `` . undergrad d: well , we think it does n't matter . phd b: we think it does n't matter . if i if not i undergrad d: but the real question i have is that , why bother with these ? postdoc e: oh , interesting . undergrad d: why do n't you just ask people to repeat numbers they already know ? like phone numbers , you know , social security numbers . phd b: cuz we have these writt written down , right ? grad a: because right . phd b: that 's why grad a: if we have it , uh undergrad d: i know . postdoc e: social security numbers . undergrad d: i kn grad a: we do n't have to transcribe . phd b: you can you can generate postdoc e: bank account numbers . undergrad d: credit card numbers , grad a: we do n't have to tran undergrad d: yeah . grad a: yeah , please . phd b: yeah . that 's a great idea . postdoc e: passport numbers . undergrad d: yeah , so you just say say your credit card numbers , say your phone numbers , say your mother 's maiden name . grad a: bet we could do it . undergrad d: you know pe postdoc e: password to your account . undergrad d: people off the street . postdoc e: go on . undergrad d: this grad a: actually , this i got this directly from another training set , from aurora . phd b: alright . grad a: so . we can compare directly . phd b: looks good . looks like there were no errors . postdoc e: i was i the reason i made my mistake was grad a: what ? postdoc e: wa - was this ? phd b: there were no there were no direct driver errors , by the look of it , which is good . grad a: great . postdoc e: good news . grad a: ok , the mike 's off . phd b: so i 'm gon na stop it . yeah , ok . postdoc e: ok . grad a: thank you all . undergrad d: mony on the mike . phd b: uh - oh .

the team discussed the various institutions , like university of washington and santa barbara , that were involved in the transcription task . the team wanted to know how diversity of sound would effect their data . the team also wanted more corpuses and have more students at future meetings .

what did the team think about distributing the corpus ? </s> grad a: ok , this is one channel . can you uh , say your name and talk into your mike one at a time ? phd c: this is eric on channel three , i believe . grad a: ok . uh , i do n't think it 's on there , jane . undergrad d: tasting one two three , tasting . postdoc e: ok , this is jane on channel five . grad a: uh , i still do n't see you jane . postdoc e: oh , darn , what am i doing wrong ? undergrad d: can you see me on channel four ? really ? grad a: yeah , i s undergrad d: my lucky day . postdoc e: uh , screen no , it is , oh , maybe it just warmed up ? grad a: no . postdoc e: oh , darn , can you ca n't see channel five yet ? grad a: uh , well , the mike is n't close enough to your mouth , so . postdoc e: oh , this would be k ok , is that better ? grad a: s uh , try speaking loudly , undergrad d: i like the high quality labelling . grad a: so , postdoc e: hello , grad a: ok , good . undergrad d: david , can we borrow your labelling machine to improve the quality of the labelling a little bit here ? postdoc e: hello . alright . grad a: thank you . phd b: one t undergrad d: how how many are there , one to five ? phd b: one five , yeah . undergrad d: yeah , please . postdoc e: would you like to join the meeting ? grad a: well , we do n't wan na renumber them , postdoc e: i bet grad a: cuz we 've already have like , forms filled out with the numbers on them . so , let 's keep the same numbers on them . phd b: yeah , ok , that 's a good idea . grad a: ok , dan , are you on ? phd b: i 'm on i 'm on two and i should be on . grad a: good . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: want to join the meeting , dave ? do we do do we have a spare , uh grad a: and i 'm getting lots of responses on different ones , so i assume the various and assorted p z ms are on . undergrad d: we ' r we 're we ' r this is this this is a meeting meeting . postdoc e: this is abou we 're we 're mainly being taped but we 're gon na talk about , uh , transcription for the m future meeting meetings . grad a: stuff . yeah , this is not something you need to attend . so . postdoc e: yeah . e ok . phd c: you 're always having one of those days , dave . postdoc e: y you 'd be welcome . grad a: besides , i do n't want anyone who has a weird accent . postdoc e: you 'd be welcome . grad a: right , dan ? undergrad d: so , i do n't understand if it 's neck mounted you do n't get very good performance . phd c: it 's not neck mounted . it 's supposed to be h head mounted . undergrad d: yeah . it it should be head mounted . right ? grad a: well , then put it on your head . phd b: i do n't know . phd c: right . grad a: what are you doing ? undergrad d: cuz when you do this , you can rouww - rouww . postdoc e: why did n't i you were saying that but i could hear you really well on the on the transcription on the , uh , tape . grad a: well , i m i would prefer that people wore it on their head phd b: i i do n't know . phd c: i grad a: but they were complaining about it . because it 's not it does n't go over the ears . undergrad d: why ? postdoc e: it 's badly designed . grad a: it 's very badly designed so it 's phd b: it 's very badly designed ? undergrad d: what do you mean it does n't go over the ears ? phd b: why ? it 's not s it 's not supposed to cover up your ears . grad a: yeah but , there 's nowhere to put the pad so it 's comfortable . phd b: i mean , it 's only badly postdoc e: so that 's what you 're d he 's got it on his temples so it cuts off his circulation . phd b: oh , that 's strange . phd c: yeah , that 's that 's what i have . grad a: and it feels so good that way . phd c: it feels so good when i stop . grad a: so i i again would like to do some digits . undergrad d: somebody wan na postdoc e: try it . grad a: um . undergrad d: somebody wan na close the door ? grad a: sure . phd b: ok . postdoc e: we could do it with noise . grad a: so let me phd c: you 're always doing digits . grad a: well , you know , i 'm just that sort of digit - y g sorta guy . ok . so this is adam . postdoc e: uh , this is the same one i had before . grad a: i doubt it . phd b: it 's still the same words . grad a: i think we 're session four by the way . or m it might be five . undergrad d: psss ! oh , that 's good . postdoc e: no grad a: i did n't bring my previous thing . phd b: we did n't postdoc e: now , just to be sure , the numbers on the back , this is the channel ? phd b: that 's the microphone number . postdoc e: that 's the microphone number . grad a: yeah , d leave the channel blank . postdoc e: uh - oh . ok , good . undergrad d: but number has to be ? so we have to look up the number . postdoc e: five grad a: right . undergrad d: ok , good . postdoc e: good . ok . well , this is jane , on mike number five . um . i just start ? do i need to say anything more ? grad a: uh , transcript number . phd b: transcript number phd c: ok , this is eric on microphone number three , undergrad d: this is beck on mike four . grad a: thanks . should i turn off the vu meter dan ? do you think that makes any difference ? phd b: oh , god . no , let me do it . grad a: why ? are you gon na do something other than hit `` quit `` ? phd b: no , but i 'm gon na look at the uh , logs as well . grad a: oh . should have done it before . postdoc e: uh , you said turn off the what ? grad a: the vu meter which tells you what the levels on the various mikes are and there was one hypothesis that perhaps that the act of recording the vu meter was one of the things that contributed to the errors . postdoc e: oh . oh , i see . undergrad d: yeah , but eric , uh , you did n't think that was a reasonable hypothesis , right ? postdoc e: i see . grad a: that was me , undergrad d: oh , i 'm sorry y grad a: i thought that was undergrad d: that was malarkey . grad a: well , the only reason that could be is if the driver has a bug . right ? because the machine just is n't very heavily loaded . undergrad d: no chance of that . grad a: no chance of that . just because it 's beta . look ok ? phd b: yeah , there there there was there was a there was a bug . there was a glitch last time we ran . undergrad d: are - are yo are you recording where the table mikes are by the way ? phd b: no . undergrad d: do you know which channels grad a: yeah , we usually do that . phd b: no , we do n't . grad a: yeah . phd b: but we we ought to st we ought to standardize . undergrad d: why not ? phd b: i think , uh , i s i spoke to somebody , morgan , { comment } about that . i think i think we should put mar well , no , w we can do that . undergrad d: why do n't you just do this ? grad a: i mean , that 's what we 've done before . phd b: i know what they they 're they 're four , three , two , one . in order now . undergrad d: four . phd b: three , two , and one . undergrad d: three . phd b: but i think i think we should put them in standard positions . i think we should make little marks on the table top . grad a: which means we need to move this thing , and sorta decide how we 're actually going to do things . phd b: so that we can put them postdoc e: oh , ok . phd b: i guess that 's the point . grad a: so . phd b: it 'll be a lot easier if we have a if we have them permanently in place or something like that . grad a: right . postdoc e: i do wish there were big booms coming down from the ceiling . phd b: you do ? postdoc e: yeah . phd c: would it make you feel more important ? grad a: mmm . postdoc e: yeah , yeah , yeah . phd c: i see . undergrad d: wait till the projector gets installed . postdoc e: you know . grad a: that 'll work . postdoc e: oh , that 'll be good . grad a: that 'll work . phd b: oh , gosh . undergrad d: cuz it 's gon na hang down , make noise . postdoc e: ok . phd b: when 's it gon na be installed ? postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: well , it depends on phd b: i see . undergrad d: is this b is this being recorded ? grad a: that 's right . undergrad d: uh , i think lila actually is almost getting r pretty close to even getting ready to put out the purchase order . phd b: ok . cool . undergrad d: i handed it off to her about a month ago . phd b: i see . grad a: ok , so , topic of this meeting is i wan na talk a little bit about transcription . um , i 've looked a little bit into commercial transcription services and jane has been working on doing transcription . uh , and so we wan wan na decide what we 're gon na do with that and then get an update on the electronics , and then , uh , maybe also talk a little bit about some infrastructure and tools , and so on . um , you know , eventually we 're probably gon na wan na distribute this thing and we should decide how we 're gon na how we 're gon na handle some of these factors . so . phd b: distribute what ? grad a: hmm ? phd b: the data ? grad a: right . right . i mean , so we 're we 're collecting a corpus and i think it 's gon na be generally useful . i mean , it seems like it 's not a corpus which is uh , has been done before . and so i think people will be interested in having having it , phd b: oh . grad a: and so we will undergrad d: u using , like , audio d v ds or something like that ? grad a: excuse me ? phd b: yes . undergrad d: audio d v grad a: well , or something . yeah , audio d v c ds , undergrad d: or t grad a: you know . undergrad d: yeah . tapes . grad a: and and so how we do we distribute the transcripts , how do we distribute the audio files , how do we how do we just do all that infrastructure ? phd c: well , i think i mean , for that particular issue ther there are known sources where people go to to find these kind of things like the ldc for instance . postdoc e: yeah , grad a: right , but but so should we do it in the same format as ldc postdoc e: that 's right . grad a: and what does that mean to what we 've done already ? phd b: right . the it 's not so much the actu the logistics of distribution are secondary to preparing the data in a suitable form for distribution . phd c: right . grad a: right . so , uh , as it is , it 's sort of a ad - hoc combination of stuff dan set and stuff i set up , which we may wan na make a little more formal . so . phd b: and the other thing is that , um , university of washington may want to start recording meetings as well , grad a: right . phd b: in which case w w we 'll have to decide what we 've actually got so that we can give them a copy . grad a: that 's right . undergrad d: a field trip . grad a: yeah . i was actually thinking i would n't mind spending the summer up there . that would be kind of fun . phd b: oh , really ? grad a: yeah . visit my friends and spend some time phd b: different for you . yes . grad a: well , and then also i have a bunch of stuff for doing this digits . so i have a bunch of scripts with x waves , and some perl scripts , and other things that make it really easy to extract out and align where the digits are . and if u d uw 's going to do the same thing i think it 's worth while for them to do these digits tasks as well . undergrad d: mm - hmm . grad a: and what i 've done is pretty ad - hoc , um , so we might wan na change it over to something a little more standard . phd c: hmm . grad a: you know , stm files , or xml , or something . undergrad d: an - and there 's interest up there ? grad a: what 's that ? undergrad d: there 's interest up there ? grad a: well they they certainly wan na collect more data . and so they 're applying , i think i b is that right ? something like that . phd b: i do n't know . grad a: um , for some more money to do more data . so we were planning to do like thirty or forty hours worth of meetings . they wan na do an additional hundred or so hours . so , they want a very large data set . um , but of course we 're not gon na do that if we do n't get money . so . phd b: i see . grad a: and i would like that just to get a disjoint speaker set and a disjoint room . i mean , one of the things morgan and i were talking about is we 're gon na get to know this room really well , phd c: mm - hmm . grad a: the the acoustics of this room . phd b: all about that . undergrad d: including the fan . grad a: including the fan . undergrad d: did you notice the fan difference ? phd b: oh , now you 've touched the fan control , now all our data 's gon na be undergrad d: hear the difference ? grad a: oh , it 's enormous . phd b: yeah , it 's great . postdoc e: oh , that 's better . undergrad d: do you wan na leave it off or not ? postdoc e: that 's better . grad a: all the others have been on . phd b: that 's undergrad d: yeah , the you sure ? phd b: oh , yeah . grad a: y absolut phd b: absolutely . undergrad d: you you think that grad a: yeah . undergrad d: things after the f then this fan 's wired backwards by the way . uh , i think this is high speed here . postdoc e: yeah , it 's noticeable . undergrad d: well , not clear . phd b: well it 's well like `` low `` is mid mid - scale . undergrad d: maybe it maybe it is n't . phd b: so it could be that it 's not actually wired backwards undergrad d: that 's right . phd b: it 's just that ambiguous . undergrad d: i was wondering also , get ready . { comment } whether the lights made any noise . postdoc e: uh - huh . grad a: there 's definitely yep . phd b: oh , they do . phd c: yeah , a little bit . phd b: yeah . grad a: high pitch hum . wow . undergrad d: so , do our meetings in the dark with no air conditioning in the future . grad a: yeah , just get a variety . postdoc e: i think candles would be nice if they do n't make noise . grad a: they 're very good . phd b: oh , yeah . phd c: it would you know , it would real really mean that we should do short meetings when you turn off the { comment } turn off the air conditioning , grad a: carbon monoxide poisoning ? undergrad d: short meetings , that 's right . or yeah , sort of { comment } r r phd c: got to finish this meeting . undergrad d: tear t tear your clothing off to stay cool . phd c: that 's right . undergrad d: actually , the a th air the air conditioning 's still working , that 's just an auxiliary fan . phd c: right , i see . grad a: so phd c: so , um , in addition to this issue about the uw stuff there was announced today , uh , via the ldc , um , a corpus from i believe santa barbara . postdoc e: yeah , i saw it . i 've been watching for that corpus . phd c: um , of general spoken english . postdoc e: yeah . yep . phd c: and i do n't know exactly how they recorded it but apparently there 's a lot of different styles of speech and what not . grad a: mm - hmm . phd c: and postdoc e: they had people come in to a certain degree and they and they have dat recorders . phd c: i see . so it is sort of far field stuff . right ? postdoc e: i i assume so , actually , i had n't thought about that . unless they added close field later on but , um , i 've listened to some of those data and i , um , i 've been i i was actually on the advisory board for when they set the project up . grad a: mm - hmm . phd c: oh , ok . phd b: what 's it sound like ? postdoc e: i 'm glad to see that it got released . grad a: yeah , i i wish postdoc e: so it it 's a very nice thing . grad a: i wish we had someone here working on adaptation phd c: s grad a: because it would nice to be able to take that stuff and adapt it to a meeting setting . you know phd c: but it may be it may be useful in postdoc e: how do you mean do you mean mechanical adaptation or grad a: no , software , to adapt the speech recognition . postdoc e: ok . phd c: well , what i was thinking is it may be useful in transcribing , if it 's far field stuff , grad a: mm - hmm . phd c: right ? in doing , um , some of our first automatic speech recognition models , it may be useful to have that kind of data postdoc e: great idea . phd c: because that 's very different than any kind of data that we have so far . grad a: that 's true . postdoc e: and and their recording conditions are really clean . i mean , i 've i 've heard i 've listened to the data . grad a: well that 's not good , right ? phd c: that 's that 's not great . postdoc e: it sounds undergrad d: tr postdoc e: well but what i mean is that , um undergrad d: but far field means great distance ? i mean grad a: just these . undergrad d: not head mounted ? phd b: yeah . undergrad d: and so that 's why they 're getting away with just two channels or something , or are they using multiple dats ? postdoc e: um , oh , good question and i ca n't ans answer it . grad a: well we can look into it . postdoc e: i do n't know . phd c: no , and their web their web page did n't answer it either . so i 'm , i uh , was thinking that we should contact them . postdoc e: ok . phd c: so it 's that 's sort of a beside - the - point point . but . grad a: so we can get that just with , uh , media costs , undergrad d: still a point . phd c: right . grad a: is that right ? phd c: uh , in fact we get it for free grad a: oh . phd c: cuz they 're distributing it through the ldc . grad a: great . postdoc e: yep . grad a: so that would be yeah , that would be something to look into . so . phd c: so , i can i can actually arrange for it to arrive in short order if we 're postdoc e: the other thing too is from from a grad a: well , it 's silly to do unless we 're gon na have someone to work on it , so maybe we need to think about it a little bit . phd c: huh . postdoc e: the other thing too is that their their jus their transcription format is really nice and simple in in the discourse domain . but they also mentioned that they have it time aligned . i mean , i s i i saw that write - up . phd c: yeah . maybe we should maybe we should get a copy of it just to see what they did phd b: yeah , absolutely . grad a: yeah . phd c: so so that we can we can compare . postdoc e: it 's very nice . grad a: ok , why do n't you go ahead and do that then eric ? phd b: absolutely . phd c: alright , i 'll do that . i ca n't remember the name of the corpus . it 's corps - s postdoc e: csae . phd c: s postdoc e: corpus of spoken american english . phd c: right , ok . postdoc e: yeah , sp i 've been i was really pleased to see that . i knew that they they had had some funding problems in completing it phd b: uh - huh . phd c: yeah . postdoc e: but , um , phd c: well they 're postdoc e: this is clever . phd c: apparently this was like phase one postdoc e: got it through the ldc . phd c: and the there 's still more that they 're gon na do apparently or something like that unless of course they have funding issues postdoc e: great . great . phd c: and then then it ma they may not do phase two but from all the web documentation it looked like , `` oh , this is phase one `` , whatever that means . postdoc e: super . super . great . yeah , that i mean , they 're really well respected in the linguistics d side too and the discourse area , phd c: ok . postdoc e: and so this is a very good corpus . phd c: but , it uh it would also maybe help be helpful for liz , if she wanted to start working on some discourse issues , you know , looking at some of this data and then , grad a: right . phd c: you know so when she gets here maybe that might be a good thing for her . grad a: actually , that 's another thing i was thinking about is that maybe jane should talk to liz , to see if there are any transcription issues related to discourse that she needs to get marked . postdoc e: ok . phd c: maybe we should have a big meeting meeting . phd b: sure , of course . undergrad d: that would be a meeting meeting meeting ? grad a: a meeting meeting meeting . phd c: yeah . grad a: well this is the meeting about the meeting meeting meeting . so . phd c: oh . grad a: um . phd c: right . but maybe we should , uh find some day that liz uh , liz and andreas seem to be around more often . grad a: mm - hmm . phd c: so maybe we should find a day when they 're gon na be here and and morgan 's gon na be here , and we can meet , at least this subgroup . i mean , not necessarily have the u - dub people down . grad a: well , i was even thinking that maybe we need to at least ping the u - dub to see phd c: we need we need to talk to them some more . grad a: you know , say `` this is what we 're thinking about for our transcription `` , if nothing else . so , well w shall we move on and talk a little bit about transcription then ? phd b: mm - hmm . let 's . phd c: yeah . grad a: ok , so { comment } since that 's what we 're talking about . what we 're using right now is a tool , um , from this french group , called `` transcriber `` that seems to work very well . um , so it has a , uh , nice useful tcl - tk user interface and , uh , undergrad d: thi - this is the process of converting audio to text ? grad a: right . undergrad d: and this requires humans just like the the stp stuff . grad a: yes , yeah . right , right . so we 're we 're at this point only looking for word level . so all all so what you have to do is just identify a segment of speech in time , and then write down what was said within it , and identify the speaker . and so the things we that we know that i know i want are the text , the start and end , and the speaker . but other people are interested in for example stress marking . and so jane is doing primary stress , um , stress marks as well . um , and then things like repairs , and false starts , and , filled pauses , and all that other sort of stuff , we have to decide how much of that we wan na do . postdoc e: i did include a glo { comment } uh , a certain first pass . my my view on it was when you have a repair then , uh it seems i mean , we saw , there was this presentation in the one of the speech group meetings about how grad a: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and i think liz has done some stuff too on that , that it , uh that you get it bracketed in terms of like well , if it 's parenthetical , which i know that liz has worked on , then uh y y you 'll have different prosodic aspects . grad a: mm - hmm . phd b: hmm . postdoc e: and then also if it 's a r if it 's a repair where they 're like what i just did , then it 's nice to have sort of a sense of the continuity of the utterance , the start to be to the finish . and , uh , it 's a little bit deceptive if you include the repai the pre - repair part and sometimes or of it 's in the middle . anyway , so what i was doing was bracketing them to indicate that they were repairs which is n't uh , very time - consuming . grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: i is there already some sort of plan in place for how this gon na be staffed or done ? or is it real is that what we 're talking about here ? grad a: well , that 's part of the thing we 're talking about . so what we wanted to do was have jane do basically one meeting 's worth , you know , forty minutes to an hour , postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad a: and postdoc e: as a pilot study . undergrad d: yourself ? grad a: yeah . undergrad d: it this is this is like five times real time or ten times real time postdoc e: yeah , as a pilot study . grad a: ten times about , is and so one of the things was to get an estimate of how long it would take , and then also what tools we would use . and so the next decision which has to be made actually pretty soon is how are we gon na do it ? so . undergrad d: and so you make jane do the first one so then she can decide , oh , we do n't need all this stuff , just the words are fine . postdoc e: that 's right , that 's right . phd b: that 's right . postdoc e: i wan na hear about these uh , we have a g you were s continuing with the transcription conventions for s grad a: r right , so so one one option is to get linguistics grad students and undergrads to do it . and apparently that 's happened in the past . and i think that 's probably the right way to do it . um , it will require a post pass , i mean people will have to look at it more than once to make sure that it 's been done correctly , but i just ca n't imagine that we 're gon na get anything that much better from a commercial one . and the commercial ones i 'm sure will be much more expensive . undergrad d: ca n't we get joy to do it all ? grad a: yeah right . postdoc e: no , that 's grad a: we will just get joy and jane to do everything . undergrad d: is tha was n't that what she was doing before ? yeah , that 's right . grad a: but , you know , that 's what we 're talking about is getting some slaves who who need money undergrad d: right . grad a: and , uh , duh , again o postdoc e: i object to that characterization ! phd b: oh , really . grad a: i meant joy . and so again , i have to say `` are we recording `` postdoc e: oh , thank you . ok . grad a: and then say , uh , morgan has has consistently resisted telling me how much money we have . undergrad d: right . well , the answer is zero . grad a: so . undergrad d: there 's a reason why he 's resisted . grad a: well , if it 's zero then we ca n't do any transcription . undergrad d: but . grad a: i mean , cuz we 're we undergrad d: right . phd b: i have such a hard name . grad a: i mean , i i ca n't imagine us doing it ourselves . right ? undergrad d: well , we already we already we already have a plan in place for the first meeting . grad a: n right . undergrad d: right ? that 's postdoc e: well th there is als yeah , really . there is also the o other possibility which is if you can provide not money but instructional experience or some other perks , you can you could get people to to um , to do it in exchange . grad a: right . undergrad d: well , i b but seriously , i i mean , morgan 's obviously in a bind over this and thing to do is just the field of dreams theory , which is we we go ahead as though there will be money at the time that we need the money . grad a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: and that 's that 's the best we can do . grad a: right . phd b: right . undergrad d: i b to not do anything until we get money is is ridiculous . grad a: right . undergrad d: we 're not gon na do any get anything done if we do that . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . grad a: so at any rate , jane was looking into the possibility of getting students , at is that right ? talking to people about that ? postdoc e: i 'm afraid i have n't made any progress in that front yet . grad a: ok . postdoc e: i should 've sent email and i have n't yet . grad a: yeah , right . so , uh undergrad d: i d do so until you actually have a little experience with what this this french thing does we do n't even have postdoc e: and i do have grad a: she 's already done quite a bit . undergrad d: oh , we have . postdoc e: i have a bunch of hours , grad a: yeah . undergrad d: i 'm sorry . so that 's where you came up with the f the ten x number ? postdoc e: yeah . undergrad d: or is that really just a guess ? postdoc e: actually that 's the the one people usually use , ten x . phd c: how fast are you ? postdoc e: and i have n't really calculated how fast am i ? undergrad d: yeah i postdoc e: i have n't done a s see , i 've been at the same time doing kind of a boot strapping in deciding on the transcription conventions that that are you know , and and stuff like , you know , how much phd b: mmm . phd c: right . postdoc e: there 's some interesting human factors problems like , yeah , what span of of time is it useful to segment the thing into in order to uh , transcribe it the most quickly . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: cuz then , you know , you get like if you get a span of five words , that 's easy . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: but then you have to take the time to mark it . and then there 's the issue of it 's easier to hear it th right the first time if you 've marked it at a boundary instead of somewhere in the middle , phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: cuz then the word 's bisected or whatever and and so i mean , i 've been sort of playing with , uh , different ways of mar cuz i 'm thinking , you know , i mean , if you could get optimal instructions you could cut back on the number of hours it would take . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: d does uh this tool you 're using is strictly it does n't do any speech recognition does it ? grad a: no . postdoc e: no , it does n't but what a super tool . it 's a great environment . undergrad d: but but is there anyway to to wire a speech recognizer up to it and actually run it through postdoc e: that 's an interesting idea . grad a: we 've we 've thought about doing that postdoc e: hey ! grad a: but the recognition quality is gon na be horrendous . undergrad d: well , a couple things . phd b: wow . undergrad d: first of all the time marking you 'd get you could get by a tool . phd b: that 's true . undergrad d: and so if the if if the issue really postdoc e: that 's interesting . undergrad d: uh , i 'm think about the close caption that you see running by on on live news casts . grad a: most of those are done by a person . undergrad d: you know , yo i know i know that . postdoc e: yeah , i undergrad d: no , i understand . and in a lot of them you see typos and things like that , grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: but it but it occurs to me that it may be a lot easier to correct things than it is to do things from scratch , no matter how wonderful the tool is . grad a: yeah . yeah , we undergrad d: but if if there was a way to merge the two phd c: well , i mean , but sometimes it 's easier to type out something instead of going through and figuring out which is the right grad a: i mean , we 've talked about it postdoc e: that 'd be fun . grad a: but phd c: i mean , it depends on the error rate , right ? undergrad d: well s but but again the timing is for fr should be for free . the timing should be phd c: but we do n't care about the timing of the words . undergrad d: well i thought you just that 's said that was a critical issue . grad a: we do n't care about the timing of the words , just of the utterances . postdoc e: no , uh the the boundary phd c: we cut it s s phd b: we do n't we do n't know , actually . postdoc e: boundary . phd b: we have n't decided which which time we care about , and that 's kind of one of the things that you 're saying , is like you have the option to put in more or less timing data and , uh , be in the absence of more specific instructions , we 're trying to figure out what the most convenient thing to do is . grad a: yeah , so so what what she 's done so far , is sort of more or less breath g not breath groups , { comment } sort of phrases , continuous phrases . phd b: yeah . grad a: and so , um , that 's nice because you you separate when you do an extract , you get a little silence on either end . so that seems to work really well . postdoc e: that 's ideal . grad a: um . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: although i was i you know , the alternative , which i was sort of experimenting with before i ran out of time , recently was , um that , you know , ev if it were like an arbitrary segment of time i t pre - marked cuz it does take time to put those markings in . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: it 's really the i the interface is wonderful because , you know , the time it takes is you listen to it , and then you press the return key . but then , you know , it 's like , uh , you press the tab key to stop the flow and and , uh , the return key to p to put in a marking of the boundary . but , you know , obviously there 's a lag between when you hear it and when you can press the return key phd b: yeah . postdoc e: so it 's slightly delayed , so then you you listen to it a second time and move it over to here . undergrad d: a postdoc e: so that takes time . undergrad d: i a postdoc e: now if it could all be pre - marked at some , l you know , good undergrad d: ar but grad a: hmm . undergrad d: are are those d delays adjustable ? those delays adjustable ? see a lot of people who actually build stuff with human computer interfaces understand that delay , phd b: yeah . undergrad d: and and so when you by the time you click it it 'll be right on because it 'll go back in time to put the postdoc e: yeah . phd b: it could do that postdoc e: yeah , uh , not in this case . grad a: we could program that pretty easily , phd b: could n't it . postdoc e: it has other grad a: could n't we dan ? yeah , mis mister tcl ? phd b: yeah . postdoc e: oh , interesting point . phd b: i would have thought so , yeah . postdoc e: ah ! { comment } interesting point . phd b: mmm . postdoc e: ok , that would make a difference . grad a: but , um postdoc e: i mean , it 's not bad grad a: but , if we tried to do automatic speaker id . postdoc e: but it does take twice . grad a: i mean , cuz primarily the markings are at speaker change . phd b: yeah , yeah , but grad a: but that would be phd b: but we 've got we 've got the most channel data . we 'd have to do it from your signal . right . i mean , we 've we 've got we 've got a lot of data . postdoc e: oh , good point ! ah ! grad a: yeah , i guess the question is how much time will it really save us versus the time to write all the tools to do it . postdoc e: we 've got volume . phd b: right . but the chances are if we if we 're talking about collecting ten or a hundred hours , which is going to take a hundred or a thousand hours to transcribe undergrad d: if grad a: but undergrad d: if we can go from ten x to five x we 're doing a big grad a: we 're gon na need we 're gon na need ten to a hundred hours to train the tools , and validate the tools the do the d to to do all this anyway . phd c: right . so maybe postdoc e: wow . phd b: if we 're just doing silence detection postdoc e: but but it op grad a: i knew you were gon na do that . just saw it coming . postdoc e: i 'm sorry . i wish you had told me wish you 'd told me . undergrad d: put put it on your sweater . postdoc e: at what part ? ok , i 'm alright . phd b: um , i it seems like well , uh , i do n't know . yeah . i mean , it it 's it 's maybe like a week 's work to get to do something like this . so forty or fifty hours . phd c: right . postdoc e: could you get it so that with so it would it would detect volume on a channel and insert a marker ? and the the format 's really transparent . phd b: sure . phd c: yeah . postdoc e: it 's just a matter of a very c clear it 's xml , is n't it ? grad a: mm - hmm . postdoc e: it 's very i mean , i looked at the the file format and it 's just it has a t a time a time indication and then something or other , and then an end time or something or other . phd c: so maybe maybe we could try the following experiment . take the data that you 've already transcribed postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd c: and undergrad d: is this already in the past or already in the future ? phd c: already in the past . undergrad d: you 've already you 've already done some ? grad a: she 's she 's done about half a meeting . phd c: she she 's done one she 's one postdoc e: yes i have . undergrad d: oh - oh , i see . phd c: right . undergrad d: ok , grad a: right ? phd c: right . undergrad d: good . grad a: about half ? phd c: i 'm go postdoc e: s i 'm not sure if it 's that 's much but anyway , enough to work with . phd c: right . phd b: several minutes . phd c: um , and and throw out the words , but keep the time markings . and then go through i mean , and go through and and try and re - transcribe it , given that we had perfect boundary detection . postdoc e: ok . good idea . phd c: and see if it see if it see if it feels easier to you . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: and forgetting all the words because you 've been thr postdoc e: yeah , that 's what i was thinking . i 'd i 'd be cheating a little bit g with familiarity effect . phd c: yeah , i mean uh , that 's part of the problem is , is that what we really need is somebody else to come along . phd b: well , no , you should do it you should do it do it again from scratch and then do it again at the boundaries . so you do the whole thing three times and then we get phd c: yeah . postdoc e: no . now , there 's a plan . undergrad d: and then then w since we need some statistics do it three more . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: and so you 'll get you 'll get down to one point two x by the time you get done . postdoc e: oh , yeah . i 'll do that tomorrow . i should have it finished by the end of the day . undergrad d: no , but the thing is the fact that she 's she 's did it before just might give a lower bound . that 's all . phd b: yeah . phd c: right . undergrad d: uh , which is fine . postdoc e: exactly . undergrad d: it 's and if the lower bound is nine x then w it 's a waste of time . postdoc e: yeah . phd c: right . postdoc e: well , uh but there 's an extra problem which is that i did n't really keep accurate phd b: oh ! postdoc e: uh , it was n't a pure task the first time , phd b: yeah . postdoc e: so uh , it 's gon na be an upper bound in in that case . and it 's not really strictly comparable . so i think though it 's a good proposal to be used on a new a new batch of text that i have n't yet done yet in the same meeting . could use it on the next segment of the text . phd b: the point we where do we get the the the oracle boundaries from ? phd c: right . phd b: or the boundaries . grad a: yeah , one person would have to assign the boundaries and the and the other person would have to postdoc e: well , but could n't i do it for the next phd b: we we we could get fake grad a: i mean that 's easy enough . postdoc e: oh , i see what you mean . grad a: i could do that . postdoc e: well , but the oracle boundaries would come from volume on a partic specific channel would n't they ? grad a: no , no . phd b: that would be the automatic boundaries . phd c: no , no , no , no . you wan na know given given a perfect human segmentation , i mean , you wan na know how well postdoc e: yeah . phd c: i mean , the the question is , is it worth giving you the segmentation ? postdoc e: oh , i see what you mean . grad a: i mean , that that 's easy enough . phd c: right . postdoc e: yeah . grad a: i could generate the segmentation and and you could do the words , and time yourself on it . so . undergrad d: a little double - blind - ear kind of thing . grad a: yep . postdoc e: i see . ok . grad a: so it that might be worth doing . postdoc e: that 's good . i like that . grad a: that would at least tell us whether it 's worth spending a week or two trying to get a tool , that will compute the segmentations . phd c: right . undergrad d: and the thing to keep in mind too about this tool , guys is that sure , you can do the computation for what we 're gon na do in the future but if if uw 's talking about doing two , or three , or five times as much stuff and they can use the same tool , then obviously there 's a real multiplier there . grad a: right . postdoc e: and the other thing too is with with speaker identification , if if that could handle speaker identification that 's a big deal . phd b: well it w phd c: right . undergrad d: well , use it . yeah , that 's why we s bought the expensive microphones . postdoc e: ok . yeah , i mean , that 's a nice feature . grad a: yep . phd b: yeah , yeah . postdoc e: that 's a major that 's like , one of the two things that phd c: i mean , there 's gon na there 's gon na be in the meeting , like the reading group meeting that we had the other day , that 's it 's gon na be a bit of a problem phd b: ok . phd c: because , like , i was n't wearing a microphone phd b: yes . phd c: f and there were other people that were n't wearing microphones . grad a: that undergrad d: but you did n't say anything worth while anyway , right ? grad a: that 'll s phd b: right . phd c: that 's pretty much true postdoc e: yeah . grad a: it might save ninety percent of the work though . phd c: but but , yes . grad a: so . phd b: so i i need to we need to look at what what the final output is but it seems like we it does n't it seems like it 's not really not that hard to have an automatic tool to generate the phrase marks , and the speaker , and speaker identity without putting in the words . grad a: yeah . i 've already become pretty familiar with the format , postdoc e: that 'd be so great . grad a: so it would be easy . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: yeah . yeah . grad a: if you 'd tell me where it is , huh ? postdoc e: we did n't finish the the part of work already completed on this , did we ? i mean , you you talked a little bit about the transcription conventions , grad a: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and , i guess you 've mentioned in your progress report , or status report , that you had written a script to convert it into so , i when i i the it 's quickest for me in terms of the transcription part to say something like , you know , if if adam spoke to , um to just say , `` a colon `` , like who could be , you know , i mean at the beginning of the line . phd b: mmm . postdoc e: and e colon instead of entering the interface for speaker identification and clicking on the thing , uh , indicating the speaker id . so , and then he has a script that will convert it into the the thing that , uh , would indicate speaker id . grad a: it 's pretty cute . postdoc e: if that 's clear . phd c: ok . grad a: but at any rate . so , um , postdoc e: it 's perl script . grad a: right . so so i think the guess at ten x seems to be pretty standard . everyone more or less everyone you talk to says about ten times for hard technical transcription . postdoc e: mm - hmm . undergrad d: using wh using stone age postdoc e: yeah . undergrad d: using stone age tools . postdoc e: that 's right . grad a: using using stone age tools . i mean , i looked at cyber transcriber postdoc e: yeah , well that 's true , but grad a: which is a service that you send an audio file , they do a first - pass speech recognition . and then they they do a clean up . but it 's gon na be horrible . they 're never gon na be able to do a meeting like this . phd b: no . undergrad d: right . postdoc e: what i just approximately , what did you find out in terms of price or or whatever ? grad a: well , for cyber transcriber they do n't quote a price . they want you to call and and talk . so for other services , um , they were about thirty dollars an hour . postdoc e: of of tape ? grad a: thirty so , yeah . postdoc e: or of action ? grad a: for thirty dollars an hour for of their work . postdoc e: ok . ok . oh , of their grad a: so so if it 's ten times it 's three hundred dollars an hour . postdoc e: oh ! phd c: so that 's three that 's three hours . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: d did you talk to anybody that does closed captioning for for uh , tv ? phd c: right . grad a: no . undergrad d: cuz they a usually at the end of the show they 'll tell what the name of the company is , the captioning company that 's doing it . grad a: mm - hmm . yeah , so so my my search was pretty cursory . postdoc e: interesting . grad a: it was just a net search . and , uh , so it was only people who have web pages and are doing stuff through that . undergrad d: well , you know , the the thing the thing about this is thinking kind of , maybe a little more globally than i should here but { comment } that really this could be a big contribution we could make . uh , i mean , we 've been through the stp thing , we know what it what it 's like to to manage the manage the process , and admittedly they might have been looking for more detail than what we 're looking for here but it was a it was a big hassle , right ? phd b: yeah . undergrad d: i mean , uh , you know , they they constantly could 've reminding people and going over it . and clearly some new stuff needs to be done here . and it 's it 's only our time , where `` our `` of course includes dan , dan and you guys . it does n't include me at all . uh . j just seems like phd b: yeah , i mean i do n't know if we 'd be able to do any thing f to help stp type problems . but certainly for this problem we can do a lot better than undergrad d: bec why ? because they wanted a lot more detail ? grad a: right . phd b: no . because they had because they only had two speakers , right ? i mean , the the segmentation problem is grad a: trivial . undergrad d: only had two . grad a: they had two speakers over the telephone . undergrad d: oh , i see . so what took them so long ? grad a: um , mostly because they were doing much lower level time . phd b: yeah . grad a: so they were doing phone and syllable transcription , as well as , uh , word transcription . undergrad d: right . right . phd c: right . postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad a: and so we 're w we decided early on that we were not gon na do that . undergrad d: i see . but there 's still the same issue of managing the process , of of reviewing and keeping the files straight , and all this stuff , that which is clearly a hassle . grad a: yep . phd b: yeah . grad a: right . and so so what i 'm saying is that if we hire an external service i think we can expect three hundred dollars an hour . phd b: yeah . grad a: i think that 's the ball park . there were several different companies that and the the range was very tight for technical documents . twenty - eight to thirty - two dollars an hour . phd c: and who who knows if they 're gon na be able to m manage multal multiple channel data ? phd b: yeah , they wo n't . grad a: they wo n't . phd b: they w they 'll refuse to do it . grad a: we 'll have to mix them . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . phd c: right . phd b: no , but i mean , they they they wo n't they wo n't they will refuse to transcribe this kind of material . postdoc e: and then there 's the problem also that phd b: that 's not what they 're d quoting for , right ? grad a: yes , it is . undergrad d: well , they might they might quote it phd b: for quoting meetings ? grad a: sev - several of them say that they 'll do meetings , and conferences , and s and so on . none of them specifically said that they would do speaker id , or speaker change mark . phd b: wow . yeah . grad a: they all just said transcription . undergrad d: th - th the th there may be just multiplier for five people costs twice as much and for ten people co { comment } something like that . phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . grad a: well , the the way it worked is it it was scaled . so what they had is , if it 's an easy task it costs twenty - four dollars an hour and it will take maybe five or six times real time . and what they said is for the hardest tasks , bad acoustics , meeting settings , it 's thirty - two dollars an hour and it takes about ten times real time . so i think that we can count on that being about what they would do . phd b: i see . yeah . grad a: it would probably be a little more phd b: right . postdoc e: yeah . grad a: because we 're gon na want them to do speaker marking . undergrad d: a lot of companies i 've worked for y the , uh the person leading the meeting , the executive or whatever , would sort of go around the room and and mentally calculate h how many dollars per hour this meeting was costing , grad a: so . undergrad d: right ? in university atmosphere you get a little different thing . but you know , it 's a lot like , `` he 's worth fifty an hour , he 's worth `` and so he so here we 're thinking , `` well let 's see , if the meeting goes another hour it 's going to be another thousand dollars . `` you know ? it 's grad a: yep , we have to have a short meeting . undergrad d: so ch so every everybody ta talk really fast . postdoc e: that 's very interesting . grad a: stop talking ! phd b: yeah . undergrad d: let 's get it over with . postdoc e: talk slowly but with few words . grad a: and clearly . phd b: that 's right . undergrad d: and only talk when you 're pointed to . postdoc e: there you go . grad a: content words only . postdoc e: we could have some telegraphic meetings . that might be interesting . phd b: yeah , it 'd be cheap . undergrad d: phd b: cheap to transcribe . grad a: so . but at any rate , so we we have a ballpark on how much it would cost if we send it out . undergrad d: and we 're talking about do doing how many hours worth of meetings ? grad a: thirty or forty . undergrad d: so thirty or forty thousand dollars . phd b: well , for ten thousand dollars . postdoc e: yeah . phd c: so , meanwhile undergrad d: oh . what well , it was thirty times phd b: three hundred . grad a: three hundred dollars an hour . undergrad d: oh , i 'm sorry , three hundred . grad a: right . undergrad d: right , i w got an extra factor of three there . phd c: so it 's thirty dollars an hour , essentially , right ? undergrad d: yeah . phd c: but we can pay a graduate student seven dollars an hour . and the question is what 's the difference phd b: how how much lower are they ? phd c: or ei eight dollars . what do you know what the going rate is ? it 's it 's on the order of eight to ten . postdoc e: i think uh that would give us a a good good estimate . phd c: i think . but i 'm not sure . postdoc e: i 'd i 'd say phd b: ten . postdoc e: yeah , i was gon na say eight you 'd say ten ? phd c: let 's say ten . phd b: yeah , give them a break . phd c: cuz it 's easier . undergrad d: the - these are not for engineering graduate students , right ? grad a: right , these are linguistics grad students . six . phd c: yeah , i i i do n't i do n't know what the i do n't know what the standard undergrad d: that 's right . phd c: but there is a standard pay scale grad a: mm - hmm . phd c: i just do n't know what it is . postdoc e: yeah , that 's right . that 's right . phd c: um , so that means that even if it takes them thirty times real time it 's cheaper to to do graduate students . postdoc e: and there 's another aspect too . grad a: i mean , that 's why i said originally , that i could n't imagine sending it out 's gon na be cheaper . phd b: no , it is n't . so . postdoc e: the other thing too is that , uh , if they were linguistics they 'd be you know , in terms of like the post editing , i uh tu uh content wise they might be easier to handle cuz they might get it more right the first time . grad a: and also we would have control of i mean , we could give them feedback . whereas if we do a service it 's gon na be limited amount . phd b: yep , yep . postdoc e: mmm . grad a: i mean , we ca n't tell them , you know , `` for this meeting we really wan na mark stress postdoc e: good point . phd b: yep . grad a: and for this meeting we want `` phd b: no . postdoc e: good point . grad a: and and they 're not gon na provide they 're not gon na provide stress , they 're not gon na re provide repairs , they 're not gon na provide they they may or may not provide speaker id . so that we would have to do our own tools to do that . so postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad a: i just phd b: yeah . undergrad d: just hypoth hypothetically assuming that that we go ahead and ended up using graduate students . i who who 's the person in charge ? who 's gon na be the steve here ? grad a: i hope it 's jane . undergrad d: you ? grad a: is that alright ? postdoc e: oh , interesting . um , now would this involve some manner of uh , monetary compensation or would i be the voluntary , uh , coordinator of multiple transcribers for checking ? grad a: um , i would imagine there would be some monetary involved but we 'd have to talk to morgan about it . phd b: yeah , out of out of adam 's pocket . phd c: yeah . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: you know , it just means you have to stop working for dave . see ? postdoc e: oh , undergrad d: that 's why dave should have been here . postdoc e: i do n't wan na stop working for dave . undergrad d: to pr protect his people . grad a: well , i would like you to do it because you have a lot more experience than i do , postdoc e: oh , cool . yeah . grad a: but if if that 's not feasible , i will do it with you as an advisor . postdoc e: uh - huh . undergrad d: w we 'd like you to do it and we 'd like to pay you . postdoc e: we 'll see . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: not being morgan though , it 's postdoc e: ok . phd c: right . postdoc e: oh , i see . phd b: we 'd like to . unfortunately postdoc e: well undergrad d: yeah . postdoc e: yeah . grad a: yeah , six dollars an hour . postdoc e: yeah , i see . phd c: that 's a undergrad d: and and then postdoc e: ok . boy , if i wanted to increase my income i could start doing the transcribing again . phd b: yeah , that 's right . yeah . undergrad d: an an an and be and be sure and say , would you like fries with that when you 're thinking about your pay scale . postdoc e: i see . good . yeah , no , that i i would be interested in that in becoming involved in the project in some aspect like that grad a: ok . more . postdoc e: more . yeah . uh - huh . yeah . grad a: um , any more on transcript we wan na talk about ? phd b: what s so what are you so you 've done some portion of the first meeting . and what 's your plan ? postdoc e: yes . mm - hmm . phd b: to carry on doing it ? postdoc e: what well , you know what i thought was right now we have p so i gave him the proposal for the transcription conventions . he made his , uh , suggestion of improvement . phd b: ok . postdoc e: the the it 's a good suggestion . so as far as i 'm concerned those transcription conventions are fixed right now . and so my next plan would be phd b: what what do they what do they cover ? postdoc e: they 're very minimal . so , it would be good to just to summarize that . so , um , one of them is the idea of how to indicate speaker change , phd b: yeah . postdoc e: and this is a way which meshes well with with , uh , making it so that , uh , you know , on the at the phd b: yeah . postdoc e: boy , it 's such a nice interface . when you when you get the , um you you get the speech signal you also get down beneath it , an indication of , uh , if you have two speakers overlapping in a s in a single segment , you see them one displayed one above each other . and then at the same time the top s part of the screen is the actual verbatim thing . you can clip click on individual utterances and it 'll take you immediately to that part of the speech signal , and play it for you . and you can , eh you can work pretty well between those two these two things . undergrad d: is there a limit to the number of speakers ? grad a: um , the user interface only allows two . and so if if you 're using their interface to specify overlapping speakers you can only do two . phd b: hmm . grad a: but my script can handle any . and their save format can handle any . and so , um , using this the convention that jane and i have discussed , you can have as many overlapping speakers as you want . undergrad d: do y is this a , uh , university project ? phd b: yeah . undergrad d: th - this is the french software , right ? grad a: yeah , french . phd b: yeah , yeah , grad a: yeah . and they 're they 've been quite responsive . phd b: their academic . undergrad d: eh grad a: i 've been exchanging emails on various issues . phd b: oh , really ? undergrad d: uh , did you ask them to change the interface for more speakers ? postdoc e: oh . grad a: yes , and they said that 's on in in the works for the next version . undergrad d: good . phd c: oh , so multi multichannels . undergrad d: good . grad a: multichannels was also well , they said they wanted to do it but that the code is really very organized around single channels . so i think that 's n unlikely to ha happen . phd c: i see . ok . undergrad d: do - do you know what they 're using it for ? why 'd they develop it ? grad a: for this exact task ? phd c: for transcription . undergrad d: are they linguists ? phd c: it 's undergrad d: but i mean , are they are they linguists or are they speech recognition people ? grad a: i think they 're linguists . postdoc e: ho phd b: linguists . postdoc e: hmm . phd b: yeah . phd c: they 're they have some connection to the ldc cuz the ldc has been advising them on this process , the linguistic data consortium . um , undergrad d: mm - hmm . phd c: so but a apart from that . grad a: it 's also all the source is available . phd c: yeah . grad a: so . phd c: right . grad a: if you if you speak tcltk . undergrad d: great . mm - hmm . grad a: and they have they 've actually asked if we are willing to do any development and i said , well , maybe . phd c: right . undergrad d: good . grad a: so if we want if we did if we did something like programmed in a delay , which actually i think is a great idea , um , i 'm sure they would want that incorporated back in . postdoc e: mm - hmm . yeah , i do too . phd b: mm - hmm . undergrad d: their pre pre - lay . phd b: pre - lay . grad a: way . postdoc e: pre - lay . well , and they 've thought about things . you know , i mean , they they do have so you have when you when you play it back , um , it 's it is useful to have , uh , a a break mark to se segment it . but it would n't be strictly necessary cuz you can use the uh , the tabbed key to toggle the sound on and off . i mean , it 'll stop the s speech you know if you if you press a tab . and , um . and so , uh , that 's a nice feature . and then also once you 've put a break in then you have the option of cycling through the unit . you could do it like multiply until you get { comment } crazy and decide to stop cycling through that unit . undergrad d: loop it ? yo - you n you know , there 's al also the the user interface that 's missing . postdoc e: or or or undergrad d: it 's missing from all of our offices , and that is some sort of analog input for something like this . it 's what audio people actually use of course . it 's something that wh when you move your hand further , the sound goes faster past it , like fast forward . you know , like a joy stick or a uh , you could wire a mouse or trackball to do something like that . postdoc e: why , that 's that 's not something i wanted to have happen . undergrad d: no , but i 'm saying if this is what professionals who actually do this kind of thing for for for m for video or for audio where you you need to do this , postdoc e: i see . uh - huh . undergrad d: and so you get very good at sort of jostling back and forth , rather than hitting tab , and backspace , and carriage return , and enter , and things like that . phd b: mmm . mmm . postdoc e: uh - huh . grad a: yeah , we talked about things like foot pedals and other analog phd c: yeah . undergrad d: mm - hmm . grad a: so i mean , tho those are things we could do but i i just do n't know how much it 's worth doing . i mean we 're just gon na have undergrad d: ye - yeah . phd c: yeah . undergrad d: right . postdoc e: yeah , i i agree . they they have several options . so , uh , you know , i mentioned the looping option . another option is it 'll pause when it reaches the end of the boundary . and then to get to the next boundary you just press tab grad a: hmm . postdoc e: and it goes on to the next unit . undergrad d: cool . postdoc e: i mean , it 's very nicely thought out . phd c: hmm . postdoc e: they thought about and also it 'll go around the c the , uh , i wan na say cursor but i 'm not sure if that 's the right thing . grad a: point , whatever . postdoc e: anyway , you can so they thought about different ways of having windows that you c uh work within , phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and but so in terms of the con the conventions , then , uh , basically , uh , it 's strictly orthographic which means with some w provisions for , uh , w uh , colloquial forms . so if a person said , `` cuz `` instead of `` because `` then i put a an apostrophe at the beginning of the word and then in in double ang angle brackets what the full lexical item would be . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and this could be something that was handled by a table or something but i think to have a convention marking it as a non - standard or wha i do n't mean standard but a a a non uh , ortho orthographic , uh , whatever . phd b: mm - hmm . grad a: non - canonical . phd c: mm - hmm . postdoc e: `` gon na `` or `` wan na `` , you know , the same thing . and and there would be limits to how much refinement you want in indicating something as non - standard pres pronunciation . phd c: how are you handling backchannels ? postdoc e: backchannels ? grad a: comments . postdoc e: um , you know oh , yes , there was some in my view , when i when you 've got it densely overlapping , um , i did n't worry about i did n't worry about s specific start times . phd c: what do you mean by du postdoc e: i sort of thought that this is not gon na be { comment } easily processed anyway and maybe i should n't spend too much time getting exactly when the person said `` no `` , or , you know , uh , i `` immediate `` . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: and instead just sort of rendered `` within this time slot , there were two people speaking during part of it phd b: yeah . postdoc e: and if you want more detail , figure it out for yourself `` , phd b: mm - hmm . grad a: well , i think what w what eric was talking about was channels other than the direct speech , phd c: i see . postdoc e: was sort of the way i felt @ @ grad a: right ? phd c: well , yeah , what i mean is wh i mean , when somebody says `` uh - huh `` in the middle of , uh , a @ @ grad a: yep . postdoc e: uh - huh . that happened very seldom . phd c: oh , cuz i was i was listening to dan was agreeing a lot to things that you were saying as you were talking . undergrad d: uh - huh . uh - huh . postdoc e: oh , well , thank you dan . phd c: so . postdoc e: appreciate it . well , if it if there was a word like `` right `` , you know , then i wou i would indicate that it happened within the same tem time frame grad a: yeah , there 's an overlapping mark . phd c: and phd b: yeah . postdoc e: but would n't say exactly when it happened . undergrad d: i 'll be right back . phd b: i transcribed a minute of this stuff phd c: i see . phd b: and there was a lot of overlapping . it was postdoc e: a lot of overlapping , yeah . grad a: well there there 's a lot of overlapping at the beginning and end . phd b: yeah . yeah . grad a: huge amounts . phd b: it was at the beginning . grad a: um , when when no one i when we 're not actually in the meeting , and we 're all sort of separated , and and doing things . but even during the meeting there 's a lot of overlap but it it 's marked pretty clearly . um , some of the backchannel stuff jane had some comments and but i think a lot of them were because you were at the meeting . and so i think that that often often you ca n't tell . postdoc e: yeah , well that 's true . that 's another issue . grad a: i mean , jane had had comments like uh , to who who the person was speaking to . phd c: yeah . postdoc e: yeah . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: only when it was otherwise gon na be puzzling grad a: yeah . postdoc e: because he was in the other room talking . grad a: yeah , but someone who , uh , was just the transcriber would n't have known that . postdoc e: yeah . grad a: or when dan said , `` i wa i was n't talking to you `` . phd c: right . postdoc e: that 's true . i know . undergrad d: so you take a bathroom break in the middle and and keep your head mount grad a: you have to turn off your mike . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: oh , you do ? phd b: you do n't have to . postdoc e: well he was so so he was checking the meter levels and and we were handling things while he was labeling the the whatever it was , the pda ? grad a: mm - hmm . phd b: uh - huh . postdoc e: and and so he was in sort of you were sort of talking you know , so i was saying , like `` and i could label this one left . right ? `` and he and he said , `` i do n't see anything `` . and he said he said , `` i was n't talking to you `` . or it was n't it did n't sound quite that rude . grad a: but postdoc e: but really , no , uh w you know in the context if you know he ca n't hear what he 's saying grad a: but when you w when you listen to it undergrad d: he he it was a lot funnier if you were there though . postdoc e: uh , yeah , grad a: well what what it what happens is if you 're a transcriber listening to it it sounds like dan is just being a total totally impolite . postdoc e: i know . well , you 'll see . you can listen to it . oh , i thought it was you who was . no , well , but you were you were asking off the wall questions . grad a: um but but if you knew that that i was n't actually in the room , and that dan was n't talking to me , it it became ok . so . phd b: i see . undergrad d: so th postdoc e: and that 's w that 's where i added comments . phd c: hmm . postdoc e: the rest of the time i did n't bother with who was talking to who but but this was unusual circum circumstance . undergrad d: so this is this is gon na go on the meeting meeting transcriber bloopers tape , right ? grad a: yes . right . postdoc e: well and part of it was funny , uh reason was because it was a mixed signal so you could n't get any clues from volume that , you know , he was really far away from this conversation . grad a: stereo . yeah . postdoc e: you could n't do that symmetrically in any case . phd b: no . grad a: oh . i should rewrite the mix tool to put half the people in one channel and half in the other . i have a auto - gain - mixer tool that mixes all the head mounted microphones into one signal postdoc e: that 's a good idea . undergrad d: mm - hmm . grad a: and that seems to work really well for the uh transcribers . undergrad d: great . postdoc e: but i thought it would be you know , i i did n't wan na add more contextual comments than were needed but that , it seemed to me , clarified that the con what was going on . and , uh ok , phd c: so , s postdoc e: so normalization phd c: i was just gon na ask , uh , so i just wanted to c sort of finish off the question i had about backchannels , phd b: mmm . phd c: if that 's ok , postdoc e: yeah . ok . phd c: which which was , so say somebody 's talking for a while postdoc e: yeah . phd c: and somebody goes `` mm - hmm `` in the middle of it , and and and what not , does the conversation come out from the or the person who 's speaking for the long time as one segment and then there 's this little tiny segment of this other speaker or does it does the fact that there 's a backchannel split the the the it in two . postdoc e: ok , my my focus was to try and maintain conten con content continuity and , uh , to keep it within what he was saying . like i would n't say breath groups but prosodic or intonational groups as much as possible . so if someone said `` mm - hmm `` in the middle of a of someone 's , uh , uh , intonational contour , i i indicated it as , like what you just did . phd c: ok . postdoc e: then i indicated it as a segment which contained @ @ { comment } this utterance plus an overlap . phd b: but that 's but there 's only one there 's only one time boundary for both speakers , phd c: ok . phd b: right ? postdoc e: yeah , that 's right . and you know , it could be made more precise than that phd c: i see , postdoc e: but i just thought phd c: i see , ok . postdoc e: yeah . phd c: right . undergrad d: i think whenever we use these speech words we should always do the thing like you 're talking about , accent , postdoc e: oh , i see what you mean . and then `` hesitation `` . yeah . ok , and so then , uh , in terms of like words like `` uh `` and `` um `` i just wrote them because i figured there 's a limited number , and i keep them to a uh , limited set because it did n't matter if it was `` mmm `` or `` um `` , { comment } you know , versus `` um `` . so i just always wrote it as u m . phd b: ok . postdoc e: and `` uh - huh `` , you know , `` uhuh . `` i mean , like a s set of like five . but in any case i did n't mark those . phd b: no . phd c: mm - hmm . phd b: `` uh - huh `` is `` u h h u h . `` h u h . `` postdoc e: i 'd be happy with that . that 'd be fine . it 'd be good to have that in the in the conventions , what 's to be used . phd c: huh - uh . grad a: i i did notice that there were some segments that had pauses on the beginning and end . we should probably mark areas that have no speakers as no speaker . then , so question mark colon is fine for that . postdoc e: yeah , that 's a fine idea . that 's a fine idea . grad a: just say silence . undergrad d: well , what 's that mean ? postdoc e: yeah , ok . yeah . undergrad d: you mean re grad a: no one 's talking . undergrad d: ye s oh . silence all around . grad a: yep . undergrad d: yep . phd b: we have to mark those ? postdoc e: so i had phd b: do n't they d ca n't we just leave them unmarked ? postdoc e: i d well , you see , that 's possible too . grad a: well , i wan na leave the marked i do n't want them to be part of another utterance . so you just you need to have the boundary at the start and the end . phd b: ok . sure . postdoc e: mm - hmm . now that 's refinement that , uh , maybe it could be handled by part of the part of the script or something more phd b: uh , yeah , it seems like it seems like the , uh , tran the transcription problem would be very different if we had these automatic speaker detection turn placing things . because suddenly i mean , i do n't know , actually it sounds like there might be a problem putting it into the software if the software only handles two parallel channels . but assuming we can get around that somehow . postdoc e: mm - hmm . well you were saying , i think it can read grad a: it can read and write as many as you want , it 's just that it postdoc e: uh - huh . phd b: but what if you wan na edit it ? right ? i mean , the point is we 're gon na generate this transcript with five five tracks in it , but with no words . someone 's gon na have to go in and type in the words . um , and if there are five five people speaking at once , grad a: right , i it 's i did n't explain it well . if we use the the little the conventions that jane has established , i have a script that will convert from that convention to their saved convention . phd b: oh , yeah . yes . postdoc e: which allows five . grad a: right . postdoc e: and it can be m edited after the fact , grad a: yes . postdoc e: ca n't it also ? but their but their format , if you wanted to in indicate the speakers right there instead of doing it through this indirect route , then i they a c window comes up and it only allows you to enter two speakers . phd b: yeah . right . undergrad d: but you 're saying that by the time you call it back in to from their saved format it opens up a window with window with five speakers ? postdoc e: so . but . grad a: right . undergrad d: oh ! that is sort of f grad a: it 's just user interface . undergrad d: they did n't quite go the whole grad a: so i it 's undergrad d: yeah , they did n't go the whole route , grad a: the the the whole saved form the saved format and the internal format , all that stuff , handles multiple speakers . undergrad d: did they ? they just grad a: it 's just there 's no user interface for specifying multiple any more than two . undergrad d: right . so your your script solves does n't it solve all our problems , postdoc e: and that grad a: yep . undergrad d: cuz we 're always gon na wan na go through this preprocessing grad a: yep . undergrad d: uh , assuming it works . grad a: yep . postdoc e: and that works nicely cuz this so quick to enter . so i would n't wan na do it through the interface anyway adding which worry who the speaker was . grad a: yep . undergrad d: i see . right . good . postdoc e: and then , uh , let 's see what else . oh , yes , i i wanted to have so sometimes a pers i uh in terms of like the continuity of thought for transcriptions , it 's i it is n't just words coming out , it 's like there 's some purpose for an utterance . and sometimes someone will do a backchannel in the middle of it but you wan na show that it 's continued at a later point . so i have i have a convention of putting like a dash arrow just to indicate that this person 's utterance continues . and then when it uh , catches back up again then there 's an arrow dash , and then you have the opposite direction to indicate continuation of ones own utterance versus , um , sometimes we had the situation which is you know , which you which you get in conversations , { comment } of someone continuing someone else 's utterance , phd b: mmm . postdoc e: and in that case i did a tilde arrow versus a arrow tilde , to indicate that it was continuation but it was n't oh , i guess i did equal arrow for the for the own for yourself things phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: cuz it 's the speakers the same . and then tilde arrow if it was a different if a different speaker , uh , con continuation . phd b: mmm . grad a: oh . postdoc e: but just , you know , the arrows showing continuation of a thought . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and then you could track whether it was the same speaker or not by knowing you know , at the end of this unit you 'd know what happened later . and that was like this person continued phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and you 'd be able to look for the continuation . grad a: so phd b: but the only time that becomes ambiguous is if you have two speakers . like , if you if you only have one person , if you only have one thought that 's continuing across a particular time boundary , you just need one arrow at each end , and if it 's picked up by a different speaker , it 's picked up by a different speaker . the time it becomes ambiguous if you have more than one speaker and that and they sort of swap . i guess if you have more than one thread going , then you then you need to know whether they were swapped or not . postdoc e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd c: how often does that happen do you think ? postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: hopefully not very much . postdoc e: yeah , i did n't use it very often . grad a: especially for meetings . i mean , if i if you were just recording someone 's day , it would be impossible . you know , undergrad d: it l ou grad a: if you were trying to do a remembrance agent . but i think for meetings it 's probably alright . phd c: hmm . grad a: but , a lot of these issues , i think that for uh , from my point of view , where i just wan na do speech recognition and information retrieval , it does n't really matter . phd b: sure . grad a: but other people have other interests . phd b: i know . grad a: so . phd b: but it it does feel it does feel like it 's really in there . i you know i did this i did this transcription and i marked that , i marked it with ellipsis because it seemed like there was a difference . it 's something you wanted to indicate that it that i this was the end of the phrase , this was the end of that particular transcript , but it was continued later . grad a: right . phd b: and i picked up with an ellipsis . postdoc e: excellent . yeah . phd b: i did n't have the equal , not equal thing . postdoc e: yeah . well that 's you know , i mean i that 's why i did n't { comment } i did n't do it n i mean , that 's why i thought about it , and and re - ev phd b: yeah , yeah . postdoc e: and it did n't do i did n't do it in ten times the the time . grad a: well , so anyway , are we interested then in writing tools to try to generate any of this stuff automatically ? postdoc e: yeah . grad a: is that something you want to do , dan ? phd b: no . grad a: no . phd b: but it 's something @ @ that i feel we definitely ought to do . postdoc e: i also wanted to ask you if you have a time estimate on the part that you transcribed . do you have a sense of how long phd b: yeah , it took me half an hour to transcribe a minute , but i did n't have any i did n't even have a postdoc e: ok . phd b: i was trying to get transcriber to run but i could n't . so i was doing it by typ typing into a text file and trying to fit it was horrible . postdoc e: ok . ok . undergrad d: so thirty to one 's what you got ? phd b: mm - hmm . undergrad d: so that 's a new upper limit ? phd b: yeah . postdoc e: well , i mean , that 's that 's because you did n't have the segmentation help and all the other grad a: but i think for a first try that 's about right . phd b: is it phd c: so so if we hired a who if we hired a whole bunch of dan 's undergrad d: that 's right . postdoc e: yeah . phd b: it was actually it was quite it was a t undergrad d: a grad a: if we hire an infinite number of dan 's phd b: it w undergrad d: it 'd b a a postdoc e: and there 's always a warm up thing of grad a: are we gon na run out of disk space by the way ? phd b: yeah . grad a: ok , phd b: no . grad a: good . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: d does n't it beep in the other room when you 're out of disk space ? phd c: so is there grad a: no . phd c: maybe we should s consider also , um , starting to build up a web site around all of these things . phd b: web site ! that 's great ! phd c: i know . grad a: dan 's sort of already started . phd b: we could have like business - to - business e - commerce as well ! phd c: that 's right . no , but i 'm it would be interesting it would be interesting to see grad a: can we sell banner ads ? undergrad d: get get paid for click - throughs ? grad a: what a good idea , phd b: yeah . grad a: that 's how we could pay for the transcription . phd c: i want to introduce i i want to introduce the word `` snot - head `` into the conversation at this point . phd b: we can have undergrad d: you wan na word that wo n't be recognized ? phd c: you see , cuz uh , cuz exactly . um . postdoc e: oh , i do n't think so . phd c: no . grad a: hey , what about me ? phd c: the r w what ok . postdoc e: you 're the one who raised the issue . phd c: no . alright , see here 's here 's here 's my thought behind it which is that , uh , the the stuff that you 've been describing , jane , i gu one has to , of course indicate , { comment } um , i is very interesting , postdoc e: alright . phd c: and i i 'd like to be able to to pore through , you know , the the types of tr conventions that you 've come up with and stuff like that . phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . phd c: so i would like to see that kind of stuff on the web . postdoc e: ok , now , w the alternative to a web site would be to put it in doctor speech . phd b: yes . yes . postdoc e: cuz cuz what i have is a soft link to my transcription that i have on my account phd c: either 's fine . phd b: we c postdoc e: but it does n't matter . grad a: we can do it all . phd b: we can do it all ! we can write postdoc e: ok . phd b: oh . postdoc e: web site 's nice . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: then you have to t you have to do an ht access . undergrad d: web site 's what ? phd b: we could actually maybe we could use the tcl plug - in . oh , man . postdoc e: ooo ! he 's committed himself to something . phd c: ow . see he said the word tcl and and that 's undergrad d: but he does such a good job of it . he should be allowed to to , you know , w do it . postdoc e: i know , i know . phd b: i know , but that but , i right . but i should be allowed to but undergrad d: if you just did a crappy job , no nobody would want you to do it . phd b: i sh i should n't be allowed to by m by my own by my according to my own priorities . alright . let 's look at it anyway . so definitely we should we should have some kind of access to the data . grad a: and we have we have quite a disparate number of web and other sorts of documents on this project sort of spread around . phd c: yeah . grad a: i have several and dan has a few , phd b: yes . grad a: and phd c: right , so we can add in links and stuff like that to other things . postdoc e: ah ! grad a: yep . postdoc e: nice . phd b: well , yeah . phd c: the phd b: well so then th grad a: try try to s consolidate . i mean , who wants to do that though ? phd b: the other side is , yeah . phd c: uh , right . grad a: no one wants to do that . so . postdoc e: yeah . phd b: right , that 's the problem . phd c: well , we could put we could put sort of a disorganized sort of group gestalt undergrad d: why ? what what 's what 's the issue ? phd b: no one owns the project . undergrad d: no one what ? phd b: no one owns the project . grad a: yeah , i own the project but i do n't wan na do it . phd b: no one wants to own the project . phd c: right . undergrad d: w well do but grad a: it 's mine ! all mine ! phd b: well then you have to do the web site . undergrad d: but grad a: `` wah - hah - hah - hah - hah - hah . `` phd b: you know , it 's like , it 's that simple . undergrad d: b but but but what are you what are you talking about for web site hacking ? phd b: no undergrad d: you 're talking about writing html , right ? grad a: yeah , i i 'm talking about putting together all the data in a form that that is legible , and pleasant to read , and up to date , and et cetera , et cetera , et cetera . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: but , is it against the law to actually use a tool to help your job go easier ? grad a: absolutely . it 's it 's absolutely against the law to use a tool . i have n't found any tools that i like . undergrad d: you y grad a: it 's just as easy to use to edit the raw html as anything else . undergrad d: no kidding ? phd b: that 's obviously not true , grad a: it 's obviously not true . phd b: but you have undergrad d: no , it it it 's obviously true that he has n't found any he likes . phd b: right . that 's true . undergrad d: the question is what is what 's he looked at . postdoc e: which one do you use jim ? undergrad d: i use something called trellix . postdoc e: oh , that 's right . i remember . yeah . undergrad d: and it postdoc e: which produces also site maps . grad a: now , i guess if i were if i were doing more powerful excuse me more complex web sites i might want to . undergrad d: it 's - it it 's very powerful . grad a: but most of the web sites i do are n't that complex . postdoc e: well , would this be to document it also for outside people or mainly for in house use ? grad a: but . i think both . phd c: no , i think in grad a: mostly in house . phd b: that 's right . phd c: i think mostly internal . undergrad d: well , yeah , postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: but what does internal mean ? phd b: no , both . undergrad d: i mean , you 're leaving . people at uw wan na look at it . i mean , it 's it 's internal { comment } until phd c: right . internal to the project . undergrad d: i see . postdoc e: we could do an ht access which would accommodate those things . phd b: i i i i grad a: ok , well , send me links and i wi send me pointers , rather , and i 'll put it together . phd b: i 'm not o postdoc e: wonderful . phd b: ok . i 'm not sure how how important that distinction is . i do n't think we should say , `` oh , it 's internal therefore we do n't have to make it very good `` . i mean , you can say `` oh oh , it 's internal phd c: no . no . phd b: therefore we can put data in it that we do n't we do n't have to worry about releasing `` . but i think the point is to try and be coherent and make it a nice presentation . undergrad d: right . i agree . postdoc e: yeah , it is true , that is it benefits to undergrad d: cuz you 're gon na have to wor do the work sooner or later . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: that 's right . i mean , it 's the early on . undergrad d: even if it 's just writing things up . grad a: yep . undergrad d: you know ? postdoc e: it 's a great idea . grad a: ok , um , let 's move on to electronics . phd b: ah . great . undergrad d: d we we out of tape out of disk ? phd b: no , we 're doing we 're doing great . undergrad d: i i was looking for the actual box i plan to use , uh , but i c all i could i could n't find it at the local store . but this is the the technology . it 's actually a little bit thinner than this . and it 's two by two , by one , and it would fit right under the right under th the the the the lip , grad a: yeah , does everyone know about the lip on the table ? it 's great . undergrad d: yeah . there 's a lip in these tables . postdoc e: nice . undergrad d: and , it oc i p especially brought the bottom along to try and generate some frequencies that you may not already have recorded . grad a: clink ! clink ! undergrad d: let 's see see what it does to the but this was the uh just just to review , and i also brought this { comment } along rather than the projector so we can put these on the table , and sort of w push them around . grad a: and and crinkle them and phd b: what ? postdoc e: and th `` that `` being a diagram . phd b: what ? undergrad d: that that 's the six tables that we 're looking at . these six tables here , with with little boxes sort of , uh , in the middle here . phd b: i see . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: which es would i mean , the the boxes are pretty much out of the way anyway . i 'll - i 'll show you the the cro this is the table cross section . i do n't know if people realize what they 're looking at . phd b: you trying to screw up the m the microphones ? grad a: yes . he is . absolutely . phd b: i mean th undergrad d: well why not ? i mean , cuz this is what 's gon na happen . you got plenty of data . i wo n't come to your next meeting . and and and you so this is the box 's grad a: get your paper off my pda ! phd b: yeah . postdoc e: yeah , let let the record show that this is exhibit two b . undergrad d: that 's right . `` or not to be `` . yeah , yeah . grad a: yeah . undergrad d: uh , the box , uh there 's a half inch lip here . the box is an inch thick so it hangs down a half an inch . and so the the two head set jacks would be in the front and then the little led to indicate that that box is live . the the important issue about the led is the fact that we 're talking about eight of these total , which would be sixteen channels . and , uh , even though we have sixteen channels back at the capture , they 're not all gon na be used for this . phd b: hmm . undergrad d: so there 'd be a subset of them used for obviously j just use the ones at this end for for this many . so excuse me . you 'd like a a way to tell whether your box is live , so the led would n't be on . phd b: right . all the lights . undergrad d: so if you 're plugged in it does n't work and the led is off that 's that 's a tip off . and then the , uh would wire the all of the cables in a in a bundle come through here and o obviously collect these cables at the same time . postdoc e: that 's good . undergrad d: uh , so this this notion of putting down the p z ms and taking them away would somehow have to be turned into leaving them on the table grad a: right . well , we wan na do that definitely . undergrad d: or or right . grad a: so . undergrad d: right . and so the you we just epoxy them down or something . big screw into the table . phd b: velcro . undergrad d: uh , and even though there 's eight cables they 're not really very big around so my model is to get a a a p piece of grad a: sleeve . undergrad d: yeah , that that stuff that people put with the little you slip the wires into that 's sort of shaped like that cross section . grad a: oh . ok , not just sleeve them all ? undergrad d: yeah . i 'm i 'm r a i 'm going up and then i 'm going down . grad a: and leave them loose ? phd b: no . postdoc e: that looks like a semi - circle . phd b: yeah . it 's like a it 's a sleeping policeman . grad a: whoo ! phd b: speed bump ! postdoc e: sleeping pol phd b: speed bump . grad a: speed a `` sleeping policeman `` ! undergrad d: yeah , it 's like a speed bum an postdoc e: speed bump . that 's good . there we go s grad a: cool . undergrad d: and they 're ac they 're actually ext extruded from plastic . phd c: what is undergrad d: they sorta look like this . grad a: oh . phd c: what does that mean ? phd b: that 's the s that 's british for speed bump , phd c: is it a speed bump ? undergrad d: so that the wires go through here . phd b: yeah . phd c: wow . postdoc e: oh , is that right ? phd b: yeah . postdoc e: i never heard that . grad a: that 's really cruel . undergrad d: so . postdoc e: ah ! grad a: ok , so that undergrad d: s so it would c basically go on the diagonal here . phd c: it could go either way . grad a: so why do we have sixteen channels instead of like some fewer number ? phd b: yeah . phd c: i guess . undergrad d: uh , because the phd b: how else are you gon na distribute them around the tables ? undergrad d: because they 're there . grad a: well , ok , let me rephrase that . why two each ? phd b: oh , because then you do n't have to just have one each . so that if t if you have two people sitting next to each other they can actually go into the same box . undergrad d: yeah . grad a: ok . undergrad d: and to see , thi this is really the way people sit on this table . th grad a: ok . postdoc e: mm - hmm . undergrad d: uh . dot , dot , dot . postdoc e: which means two at each station . undergrad d: well that that 's the way people sit . that 's how many chairs are in the room . postdoc e: yeah . grad a: alright . postdoc e: yeah , i 'm just saying that for the recording . undergrad d: yeah . grad a: right . undergrad d: right . grad a: ok . undergrad d: and certainly you could do a thing where all sixteen were plugged in . grad a: but then none of these . undergrad d: uh if if you ha if you had nothing else . grad a: right . n none of these and no p z ms then . undergrad d: yeah . right . right . i agree . phd b: only if you had well it depends on this box , right ? undergrad d: oh , true enough . and actually , at the m my plan is to only bring eight wires out of this box . phd b: exactly . grad a: oh , i did n't understand undergrad d: this this box thi - thi thi this box is a one off deal . postdoc e: that being the wiring box . grad a: oh , i see , i see . undergrad d: uh . and , uh , it 's function is to s to , uh , essentially a wire converter to go from these little blue wires to these black wires , plus supply power to the microphones cuz the the he the , uh , cheap head mounteds all require low voltage . grad a: so so you 'd imagine some sort of in some sort of patch panel on top to figure out what the mapping was between each d of these two and each of those one or what ? phd b: hmm ! undergrad d: well i w i i the simplest thing i could imagine , i which is really , really simple is to quite literally that these things plug in . and there 's a there 's a plug on the end of each of these these , uh , ei eight cables . postdoc e: what phd b: yeah . postdoc e: ok . each of the blue wires ? phd b: but there are only four . undergrad d: an - and there 's only there 's only four slots that are you know , in in the first version or the version we 're planning to to build . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . grad a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: so that that was the whole issue with the led , that you plug it in , the led comes on , and and and you 're live . grad a: oh , then it comes on . i see , i see . ok , good . undergrad d: now the the the subtle issue here is that tha i i have n't really figured out a solution for this . so , we it 'll have to be convention . what happens if somebody unplugs this because they plug in more of something else ? grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: well the there 's no clever way to let the up stream guys know that you 're really not being powered . so th there will be a certain amount of looking at cables has to be done if people , uh , rewire things . grad a: right . phd b: yeah , i mean , we i had that last time . undergrad d: but . phd b: but uh there are actually that you know , there 's an extra there 's a mix out on the radio receiver ? undergrad d: mm - hmm . phd b: so there are actually six xlr outs on the back of the radio receiver and only five cables going in , i had the wrong five , so i ended up not recording one of the channels and recording the mix . undergrad d: how interesting . d did you do any recognition on the mix mix out ? postdoc e: hmm . phd b: no . undergrad d: wonder whether it works any phd b: but i subtracted the four that i did have from the mix and got a pretty good approximation of the @ @ . undergrad d: got the fifth ? grad a: you g undergrad d: cool . postdoc e: oh , how great . grad a: and did it work ? phd b: yeah . grad a: did it sound good ? phd b: it 's not bad . undergrad d: is it is phd b: it 's not bad , grad a: wow . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: ai n't science wonderful ? postdoc e: that 's amazing . phd b: yeah . grad a: so what 's the schedule on these things ? undergrad d: so phd b: but , you always postdoc e: wow . undergrad d: uh , well i was wrestling with th with literally the w number of connectors in the cable and the the , uh , powering system . and i i was gon na do this very clever phantom power and i decided a couple days ago not to do it . phd b: hmm ! undergrad d: so i 'm ready to build it . which is to say , uh , the neighborhood of a week to get the circuit board done . grad a: mm - hmm . so i think the other thing i 'd like to do is , do something about the set up phd b: see grad a: so that it 's a little more presentable and organized . undergrad d: i agree . grad a: and i 'm i 'm just not sure what that is . i mean , some sort of cabinet . undergrad d: well i can build a cabinet . the the difficulty for this kind of project is the intellectual capital to design the cabinet . grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: in other words , to figure out ex exactly what the right thing is . that cabinet can can go away . we can use that for for uh kindling or something . but if you can imagine what the right form factor is . dan - dan and i have sort of gone around on this , and we were thinking about something that opened up in the top to allow access to the mixer for example . grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: but there 's these things sticking out of the mixer which are kind of a pain , so you end up with this thing that if if you stuck the mixer up here and the top opened , it 'd be it 'd be fine . you would n't necessarily well , you s understand what i 'm grad a: yeah , i understand . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: the the you can you can start start s sketching it out , grad a: so . undergrad d: and i can certainly build it out of oak no problem , would it you know , arb you know , arbitrarily amount of grad a: i need a desk at home too , alright ? is that gon na be a better solution than just going out and buy one ? undergrad d: well , the as we found out with the the thing that , uh , jeff bought a long time ago to hold our stereo system the stuff you buy is total crap . and i mean this is something you buy . grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: and and grad a: and it 's total crap . undergrad d: it 's total crap . well , it 's useless for this function . works fine for holding a kleenex , grad a: right , kleenex and telephones . undergrad d: but it right . grad a: um , so yeah , i g i guess it 's just a question , is that something you wan na spend your time on ? undergrad d: oh , i i 'm paid for . grad a: ok , great . undergrad d: i have no problem . no , but w certainly one of the issues is is the , uh is security . grad a: hmm ? mm - hmm . undergrad d: i mean , we 've been been been lax and lucky . grad a: lax . phd b: yeah . yep . undergrad d: really lucky with these things . but they 're not ours , so phd b: yeah . undergrad d: the , uh the flat panels . phd b: oh , yeah ! grad a: i 'm telling you , i 'm just gon na cart one of them away if they stay there much longer . phd b: well w yeah , exactly . undergrad d: uh , let the record show at uh at f four thirty - five adam janin says postdoc e: wow . tempting . phd b: we 'll know we 'll know to come after . postdoc e: tempting . yeah . grad a: so , um , j uh , then the other question is do we wan na try to do a user interface that 's available out here ? phd b: sorry ? undergrad d: slipped almost slipped it by dan . postdoc e: use - user interface grad a: a user interface . i mean , do we wan na try to get a monitor ? or just something . phd b: oh ! sure . postdoc e: oh . phd b: well of course we do . grad a: and how do we want to do that ? postdoc e: you mean like see see meter readings , from while sitting here . grad a: j just so we see something . postdoc e: wow . undergrad d: how about use the thing that um aciri 's doing . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: which is to say just laptop with a wireless . phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . sure . postdoc e: oh . phd b: which we 'll borrow from them , when we need it . undergrad d: what 's wrong with yours ? if we bought you a a phd b: oh , a applecard . sure . right . yeah , you could use my machine . phd c: well undergrad d: what ? grad a: i have an iram machine i 've borrowed and we can use it . phd b: i or the undergrad d: n no , i 'm i 'm i 'm serious . does does the wireless thing work on your grad a: wait , is n't that an ethernet connection or is that a phone ? phd b: uh , that 's an ethernet connection . grad a: well phd b: it 's going next door . undergrad d: yeah no no i 'm a i i i ai n't joking here . grad a: we jus undergrad d: i 'm serious , that that it it phd b: yeah . no , no , absolutely , that 's the right way to do it . t to have it uh , just undergrad d: it 's very convenient especially if dan happens to be sitting at that end of the table to not have to run down here and and look in the thing every so often , phd b: yeah . and given given that we 've got a wireless that we 've got a we got the field . undergrad d: but just have the it 's right there . phd b: right . undergrad d: right ? the antenna 's right there , grad a: right . phd b: yeah . yeah . undergrad d: right outside the phd b: i do n't know . undergrad d: y i mean , we need obviously need to clear this with aciri but , uh , how tough can that be ? there it you 'd all you need 's web access , is n't it ? phd b: w we do n't need x access undergrad d: in in theory . phd b: but i mean that 's fine . that 's that 's what it does , undergrad d: ok , phd b: yeah . undergrad d: great , great . grad a: um , phd b: so grad a: right , so it 's just a question of getting a laptop and a wireless modem . phd b: with a with a with a w undergrad d: no , and he he had , reque @ @ my my proposal is you have a laptop . phd b: no . yeah . i do ! undergrad d: you do n't ? phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah . undergrad d: if if we bought you the thing would you mind using it with i the the phd b: no , i would love to but i 'm not sure if my laptop is compatible with the wave lan thing they 're using . undergrad d: really ? grad a: to mac . phd b: well apple has their own thing , right ? phd c: he 's undergrad d: your new one ? grad a: airport . undergrad d: i 'm sorry ? phd b: apple has their own thing . and undergrad d: i thought it just came through a serial p or an ethernet port . phd b: yeah , i think what i think you i think it just plug plugs in a pc card , so you could probably make it run with that , but . grad a: the question is , is there an apple driver ? undergrad d: i e phd b: yeah , i 'm sure . i imagine there is . but uh anyway there are there are abs there are a bunch of machines at icsi that have those cards undergrad d: but the two t phd b: and so i think if w if it does n't we should be able to find a machine that does that . i i mean i know that does n't do n't do n't the important people have those little blue vaios that undergrad d: well , uh , b that to me that 's a whole nother . that 's a whole nother issue . postdoc e: hmm . hmm . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: the the idea of con convincing them that we should use their network i is fairly straight forward . phd b: yeah . yeah . undergrad d: the idea of being able to walk into their office and say , `` oh , can i borrow your machine for a while `` , is is is a non - starter . phd b: yeah . i see . undergrad d: that i i do n't think that 's gon na work . so , i mean , either either we figure out how to use a machine somebody already in the group already owns , a a and the idea is that if it 's it perk , you know , it 's an advantage not not a disadvan { comment } or else we we literally buy a machine e exactly for that purpose . phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah . absolutely . yeah . undergrad d: certainly it solves a lot of the problems with leaving a monitor out here all the time . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: i i i i 'm i 'm not a big fan of doing things to the room that make the room less attractive for other people , grad a: right . undergrad d: right ? which is part of the reason for getting all this stuff out of the way grad a: yeah . undergrad d: and and , so a monitor sitting here all the time you know people are gon na walk up to it and go , `` how come i ca n't get , you know , pong on this `` or , whatev grad a: mm - hmm . right . i 've i 've borrowed the iram vaio sony thingy , phd c: well grad a: and i do n't think they 're ever gon na want it back . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: right . phd b: you 're kidding ! undergrad d: well , the next conference they will . grad a: so . sure . undergrad d: yeah . grad a: but that does mean so we can use that as well . undergrad d: well , uh , the certainly , u you should give it a shot first see whether you you can get compatible stuff . phd b: mm - hmm . undergrad d: uh , ask them what it costs . ask them if they have an extra one . who knows , they might have an extra hardware s phd b: i 'd trade them a flat panel display for it . yeah . phd c: what is the , um , projector supposed to be hooked up to ? undergrad d: good . uh , the , uh tsk . it 's gon na be hooked up to all sorts of junk . there 's gon na be actually a a plug at the front that 'll connect to people 's laptops so you can walk in and plug it in . and it 's gon na be con connected to the machine at the back . so we certainly could use that as as a constant reminder of what the vu meters are doing . phd b: huge vu meters . undergrad d: so people sitting here { comment } are going `` testing , one , two , three `` ! phd c: but i mean , that 's another that 's another possibility that , you know , solves undergrad d: it a phd b: yeah . undergrad d: yeah . phd b: that 's an end undergrad d: but but but i think the idea of having a control panel it 's that 's there in front of you is really cool . phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: i think and uh , having having it on wireless is is the neatest way neatest way to do it . undergrad d: r grad a: i had undergrad d: as long as you d as l as long as you 're not tempted to sit there and f keep fiddling with the volume controls going , `` can you talk a bit louder ? `` phd b: yeah . grad a: i had actually earlier asked if i could borrow one of the cards to do wireless stuff phd b: yeah . grad a: and they said , `` sure , whenever you want `` . so i think it wo n't be a problem . phd b: oh , cool . ok . undergrad d: and and it 's a a pcmcia card , right ? grad a: yep . undergrad d: pc card , grad a: pc card . undergrad d: so you can have a slot , phd b: yeah , yeah . undergrad d: right ? in your new machine ? phd c: it 's it really come down to the driver . undergrad d: is it with s phd b: yeah . phd c: i mean grad a: right , i mean , and if and if his does n't work , as i said , we can use the pc . undergrad d: right , i it 'll it 'll work it 'll work the first time . i i trust steve jobs . grad a: good . phd b: um , grad a: so phd b: well , that sounds like a d good solution one way or the other . grad a: so jim is gon na be doing wiring and you 're gon na give some thought to cabinets ? undergrad d: uh , y yeah . grad a: great . undergrad d: we we need to figure out what we want . uh phd b: we 'd i think undergrad d: hey , what are those green lights doing ? grad a: they 're flashing ! phd b: uh - oh ! uh - oh ! does that it means it means it 's gon na explode . no . undergrad d: cut the red wire , the red wire ! phd b: um grad a: when people talk , it they go on and off . phd b: this so again , washington wants to equip a system . our system , we spent ten thousand dollars on equipment not including the pc . however , seven and a half thousand of that was the wireless mikes . uh , undergrad d: mm - hmm . phd b: using using these undergrad d: and it and the f the five thousand for the wires , so if i 'm gon na do no . phd b: yeah , undergrad d: it 's a joke . phd b: that 's true undergrad d: i have to do phd b: but we have n't spent that , right ? but once we once we 've done the intellectual part of these , uh , we can just knock them out , right ? grad a: cheap . phd b: we can start we you can make a hundred of them or something . undergrad d: oh , of the of the boards ? yeah , yeah , sure , right . phd b: and then we could washington could have a system that did n't have any wireless but would had what 's based on these undergrad d: mm - hmm . phd b: and it would cost grad a: a pc and a peanuts . undergrad d: peanuts . phd b: pc and two thousand dollars for the a - to - d stuff . grad a: yeah . phd b: and that 's about cuz you would n't even need the mixer if you did n't have the oh th the p z undergrad d: right . phd b: p z ms cost a lot . but anyway you 'd save , on the seven seven or eight thousand for the for the wireless system . so actually that might be attractive . undergrad d: right . grad a: good . phd b: ok , i can move my thumb now . postdoc e: that 's a great idea . undergrad d: what ? postdoc e: it 's nice it 's nice to be thinking toward that . undergrad d: oh , i thought like if we talked softer the disk lasts longer . grad a: well , actually shorten phd b: yeah . grad a: there 's a speech compression program that works great on things like this , cuz if the dynamic range is low it encodes it with fewer bits . and so most of the time no one 's talking so it shortens it dramatically . but if you talk quieter , the dynamic range is lower and it will compress better . so . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: oh . hmm . undergrad d: it also helps if you talk in a monotone . grad a: probably . undergrad d: constant volume all the time . postdoc e: oh , interesting . and shorter words . grad a: shorter words . phd c: now , shorter words would n't would induce more dynamics , right ? you want to have phd b: yeah , but if the words are more predictable . grad a: how about if you just go `` uh `` ? phd c: huh . undergrad d: uh . postdoc e: that 's a long word ! grad a: how do you spell that ? postdoc e: i do n't know . grad a: ok , can you do one more round of digits ? are we done talking ? undergrad d: well it 's a choice if we get a choice , let 's keep talking . grad a: do we have more to talk about ? undergrad d: sure . no , i 'm done . phd c: i 'm done . grad a: are you done ? postdoc e: i 'm done , grad a: i 'm done . postdoc e: yeah . phd c: dan is n't but he 's not gon na say anything . undergrad d: but you you you there 's a problem a structural problem with this though . you really need an incentive at the end if you 're gon na do digits again . like , you know , candy bars or something , grad a: i 'll i 'll remember to bring m and m 's next time . undergrad d: or or or or or a little , uh you know , toothbrushes like they give you at the d dentist . phd b: mmm ! postdoc e: or both . undergrad d: or both . phd b: sorry . undergrad d: eric , you and i win . we did n't make any mistakes . grad a: it 's harder at the end than at the beginning . postdoc e: we do n't know that for sure , do we ? grad a: i should have mentioned that s uh , to pause between lines but undergrad d: no , i know . i 'm just giving you a hard time . grad a: it 's it 's only a hard time for the transcriber not for the speech recognizer . phd b: tha - tha postdoc e: but i also think you said channel four grad a: me . postdoc e: and i think you meant microphone four . and i think that 's a mistake . undergrad d: very good . so eric , you win . but the other thing is that there 's a there 's a colon for transcripts . and there should n't be a colon . because see , everything else is stuff you fill in . phd b: yeah , that 's been filled in for you . undergrad d: right ? automatically . phd b: but they 're in order ! undergrad d: but real phd b: they start , six , seven , eight , nine , zero , one , two , three , four , five , six , eight , nine . undergrad d: where 'd they come from ? phd b: and they 're in order because they 're sorted lexically by the file names , which are have the numbers in digits . postdoc e: oh . phd b: and so they 're actually this is like all the all utterances that were generated by speaker mpj or something . postdoc e: oh . phd b: and then within mpj they 're sorted by what he actually said . grad a: ugh ! i did n't know that . i should have randomized it . postdoc e: wow . phd b: it does n't matter ! it 's like cuz you said `` six , seven , eight `` . undergrad d: well , we think it does n't matter . phd b: we think it does n't matter . if i if not i undergrad d: but the real question i have is that , why bother with these ? postdoc e: oh , interesting . undergrad d: why do n't you just ask people to repeat numbers they already know ? like phone numbers , you know , social security numbers . phd b: cuz we have these writt written down , right ? grad a: because right . phd b: that 's why grad a: if we have it , uh undergrad d: i know . postdoc e: social security numbers . undergrad d: i kn grad a: we do n't have to transcribe . phd b: you can you can generate postdoc e: bank account numbers . undergrad d: credit card numbers , grad a: we do n't have to tran undergrad d: yeah . grad a: yeah , please . phd b: yeah . that 's a great idea . postdoc e: passport numbers . undergrad d: yeah , so you just say say your credit card numbers , say your phone numbers , say your mother 's maiden name . grad a: bet we could do it . undergrad d: you know pe postdoc e: password to your account . undergrad d: people off the street . postdoc e: go on . undergrad d: this grad a: actually , this i got this directly from another training set , from aurora . phd b: alright . grad a: so . we can compare directly . phd b: looks good . looks like there were no errors . postdoc e: i was i the reason i made my mistake was grad a: what ? postdoc e: wa - was this ? phd b: there were no there were no direct driver errors , by the look of it , which is good . grad a: great . postdoc e: good news . grad a: ok , the mike 's off . phd b: so i 'm gon na stop it . yeah , ok . postdoc e: ok . grad a: thank you all . undergrad d: mony on the mike . phd b: uh - oh .

the team thought that their corpus was new and unique and that others would be interested in using it . they decided that they should keep dvd 's , tapes , ldc 's and other formats for sending the data to others . and they wanted to standardize their data formats .

what did the team think about dat ? </s> grad a: ok , this is one channel . can you uh , say your name and talk into your mike one at a time ? phd c: this is eric on channel three , i believe . grad a: ok . uh , i do n't think it 's on there , jane . undergrad d: tasting one two three , tasting . postdoc e: ok , this is jane on channel five . grad a: uh , i still do n't see you jane . postdoc e: oh , darn , what am i doing wrong ? undergrad d: can you see me on channel four ? really ? grad a: yeah , i s undergrad d: my lucky day . postdoc e: uh , screen no , it is , oh , maybe it just warmed up ? grad a: no . postdoc e: oh , darn , can you ca n't see channel five yet ? grad a: uh , well , the mike is n't close enough to your mouth , so . postdoc e: oh , this would be k ok , is that better ? grad a: s uh , try speaking loudly , undergrad d: i like the high quality labelling . grad a: so , postdoc e: hello , grad a: ok , good . undergrad d: david , can we borrow your labelling machine to improve the quality of the labelling a little bit here ? postdoc e: hello . alright . grad a: thank you . phd b: one t undergrad d: how how many are there , one to five ? phd b: one five , yeah . undergrad d: yeah , please . postdoc e: would you like to join the meeting ? grad a: well , we do n't wan na renumber them , postdoc e: i bet grad a: cuz we 've already have like , forms filled out with the numbers on them . so , let 's keep the same numbers on them . phd b: yeah , ok , that 's a good idea . grad a: ok , dan , are you on ? phd b: i 'm on i 'm on two and i should be on . grad a: good . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: want to join the meeting , dave ? do we do do we have a spare , uh grad a: and i 'm getting lots of responses on different ones , so i assume the various and assorted p z ms are on . undergrad d: we ' r we 're we ' r this is this this is a meeting meeting . postdoc e: this is abou we 're we 're mainly being taped but we 're gon na talk about , uh , transcription for the m future meeting meetings . grad a: stuff . yeah , this is not something you need to attend . so . postdoc e: yeah . e ok . phd c: you 're always having one of those days , dave . postdoc e: y you 'd be welcome . grad a: besides , i do n't want anyone who has a weird accent . postdoc e: you 'd be welcome . grad a: right , dan ? undergrad d: so , i do n't understand if it 's neck mounted you do n't get very good performance . phd c: it 's not neck mounted . it 's supposed to be h head mounted . undergrad d: yeah . it it should be head mounted . right ? grad a: well , then put it on your head . phd b: i do n't know . phd c: right . grad a: what are you doing ? undergrad d: cuz when you do this , you can rouww - rouww . postdoc e: why did n't i you were saying that but i could hear you really well on the on the transcription on the , uh , tape . grad a: well , i m i would prefer that people wore it on their head phd b: i i do n't know . phd c: i grad a: but they were complaining about it . because it 's not it does n't go over the ears . undergrad d: why ? postdoc e: it 's badly designed . grad a: it 's very badly designed so it 's phd b: it 's very badly designed ? undergrad d: what do you mean it does n't go over the ears ? phd b: why ? it 's not s it 's not supposed to cover up your ears . grad a: yeah but , there 's nowhere to put the pad so it 's comfortable . phd b: i mean , it 's only badly postdoc e: so that 's what you 're d he 's got it on his temples so it cuts off his circulation . phd b: oh , that 's strange . phd c: yeah , that 's that 's what i have . grad a: and it feels so good that way . phd c: it feels so good when i stop . grad a: so i i again would like to do some digits . undergrad d: somebody wan na postdoc e: try it . grad a: um . undergrad d: somebody wan na close the door ? grad a: sure . phd b: ok . postdoc e: we could do it with noise . grad a: so let me phd c: you 're always doing digits . grad a: well , you know , i 'm just that sort of digit - y g sorta guy . ok . so this is adam . postdoc e: uh , this is the same one i had before . grad a: i doubt it . phd b: it 's still the same words . grad a: i think we 're session four by the way . or m it might be five . undergrad d: psss ! oh , that 's good . postdoc e: no grad a: i did n't bring my previous thing . phd b: we did n't postdoc e: now , just to be sure , the numbers on the back , this is the channel ? phd b: that 's the microphone number . postdoc e: that 's the microphone number . grad a: yeah , d leave the channel blank . postdoc e: uh - oh . ok , good . undergrad d: but number has to be ? so we have to look up the number . postdoc e: five grad a: right . undergrad d: ok , good . postdoc e: good . ok . well , this is jane , on mike number five . um . i just start ? do i need to say anything more ? grad a: uh , transcript number . phd b: transcript number phd c: ok , this is eric on microphone number three , undergrad d: this is beck on mike four . grad a: thanks . should i turn off the vu meter dan ? do you think that makes any difference ? phd b: oh , god . no , let me do it . grad a: why ? are you gon na do something other than hit `` quit `` ? phd b: no , but i 'm gon na look at the uh , logs as well . grad a: oh . should have done it before . postdoc e: uh , you said turn off the what ? grad a: the vu meter which tells you what the levels on the various mikes are and there was one hypothesis that perhaps that the act of recording the vu meter was one of the things that contributed to the errors . postdoc e: oh . oh , i see . undergrad d: yeah , but eric , uh , you did n't think that was a reasonable hypothesis , right ? postdoc e: i see . grad a: that was me , undergrad d: oh , i 'm sorry y grad a: i thought that was undergrad d: that was malarkey . grad a: well , the only reason that could be is if the driver has a bug . right ? because the machine just is n't very heavily loaded . undergrad d: no chance of that . grad a: no chance of that . just because it 's beta . look ok ? phd b: yeah , there there there was there was a there was a bug . there was a glitch last time we ran . undergrad d: are - are yo are you recording where the table mikes are by the way ? phd b: no . undergrad d: do you know which channels grad a: yeah , we usually do that . phd b: no , we do n't . grad a: yeah . phd b: but we we ought to st we ought to standardize . undergrad d: why not ? phd b: i think , uh , i s i spoke to somebody , morgan , { comment } about that . i think i think we should put mar well , no , w we can do that . undergrad d: why do n't you just do this ? grad a: i mean , that 's what we 've done before . phd b: i know what they they 're they 're four , three , two , one . in order now . undergrad d: four . phd b: three , two , and one . undergrad d: three . phd b: but i think i think we should put them in standard positions . i think we should make little marks on the table top . grad a: which means we need to move this thing , and sorta decide how we 're actually going to do things . phd b: so that we can put them postdoc e: oh , ok . phd b: i guess that 's the point . grad a: so . phd b: it 'll be a lot easier if we have a if we have them permanently in place or something like that . grad a: right . postdoc e: i do wish there were big booms coming down from the ceiling . phd b: you do ? postdoc e: yeah . phd c: would it make you feel more important ? grad a: mmm . postdoc e: yeah , yeah , yeah . phd c: i see . undergrad d: wait till the projector gets installed . postdoc e: you know . grad a: that 'll work . postdoc e: oh , that 'll be good . grad a: that 'll work . phd b: oh , gosh . undergrad d: cuz it 's gon na hang down , make noise . postdoc e: ok . phd b: when 's it gon na be installed ? postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: well , it depends on phd b: i see . undergrad d: is this b is this being recorded ? grad a: that 's right . undergrad d: uh , i think lila actually is almost getting r pretty close to even getting ready to put out the purchase order . phd b: ok . cool . undergrad d: i handed it off to her about a month ago . phd b: i see . grad a: ok , so , topic of this meeting is i wan na talk a little bit about transcription . um , i 've looked a little bit into commercial transcription services and jane has been working on doing transcription . uh , and so we wan wan na decide what we 're gon na do with that and then get an update on the electronics , and then , uh , maybe also talk a little bit about some infrastructure and tools , and so on . um , you know , eventually we 're probably gon na wan na distribute this thing and we should decide how we 're gon na how we 're gon na handle some of these factors . so . phd b: distribute what ? grad a: hmm ? phd b: the data ? grad a: right . right . i mean , so we 're we 're collecting a corpus and i think it 's gon na be generally useful . i mean , it seems like it 's not a corpus which is uh , has been done before . and so i think people will be interested in having having it , phd b: oh . grad a: and so we will undergrad d: u using , like , audio d v ds or something like that ? grad a: excuse me ? phd b: yes . undergrad d: audio d v grad a: well , or something . yeah , audio d v c ds , undergrad d: or t grad a: you know . undergrad d: yeah . tapes . grad a: and and so how we do we distribute the transcripts , how do we distribute the audio files , how do we how do we just do all that infrastructure ? phd c: well , i think i mean , for that particular issue ther there are known sources where people go to to find these kind of things like the ldc for instance . postdoc e: yeah , grad a: right , but but so should we do it in the same format as ldc postdoc e: that 's right . grad a: and what does that mean to what we 've done already ? phd b: right . the it 's not so much the actu the logistics of distribution are secondary to preparing the data in a suitable form for distribution . phd c: right . grad a: right . so , uh , as it is , it 's sort of a ad - hoc combination of stuff dan set and stuff i set up , which we may wan na make a little more formal . so . phd b: and the other thing is that , um , university of washington may want to start recording meetings as well , grad a: right . phd b: in which case w w we 'll have to decide what we 've actually got so that we can give them a copy . grad a: that 's right . undergrad d: a field trip . grad a: yeah . i was actually thinking i would n't mind spending the summer up there . that would be kind of fun . phd b: oh , really ? grad a: yeah . visit my friends and spend some time phd b: different for you . yes . grad a: well , and then also i have a bunch of stuff for doing this digits . so i have a bunch of scripts with x waves , and some perl scripts , and other things that make it really easy to extract out and align where the digits are . and if u d uw 's going to do the same thing i think it 's worth while for them to do these digits tasks as well . undergrad d: mm - hmm . grad a: and what i 've done is pretty ad - hoc , um , so we might wan na change it over to something a little more standard . phd c: hmm . grad a: you know , stm files , or xml , or something . undergrad d: an - and there 's interest up there ? grad a: what 's that ? undergrad d: there 's interest up there ? grad a: well they they certainly wan na collect more data . and so they 're applying , i think i b is that right ? something like that . phd b: i do n't know . grad a: um , for some more money to do more data . so we were planning to do like thirty or forty hours worth of meetings . they wan na do an additional hundred or so hours . so , they want a very large data set . um , but of course we 're not gon na do that if we do n't get money . so . phd b: i see . grad a: and i would like that just to get a disjoint speaker set and a disjoint room . i mean , one of the things morgan and i were talking about is we 're gon na get to know this room really well , phd c: mm - hmm . grad a: the the acoustics of this room . phd b: all about that . undergrad d: including the fan . grad a: including the fan . undergrad d: did you notice the fan difference ? phd b: oh , now you 've touched the fan control , now all our data 's gon na be undergrad d: hear the difference ? grad a: oh , it 's enormous . phd b: yeah , it 's great . postdoc e: oh , that 's better . undergrad d: do you wan na leave it off or not ? postdoc e: that 's better . grad a: all the others have been on . phd b: that 's undergrad d: yeah , the you sure ? phd b: oh , yeah . grad a: y absolut phd b: absolutely . undergrad d: you you think that grad a: yeah . undergrad d: things after the f then this fan 's wired backwards by the way . uh , i think this is high speed here . postdoc e: yeah , it 's noticeable . undergrad d: well , not clear . phd b: well it 's well like `` low `` is mid mid - scale . undergrad d: maybe it maybe it is n't . phd b: so it could be that it 's not actually wired backwards undergrad d: that 's right . phd b: it 's just that ambiguous . undergrad d: i was wondering also , get ready . { comment } whether the lights made any noise . postdoc e: uh - huh . grad a: there 's definitely yep . phd b: oh , they do . phd c: yeah , a little bit . phd b: yeah . grad a: high pitch hum . wow . undergrad d: so , do our meetings in the dark with no air conditioning in the future . grad a: yeah , just get a variety . postdoc e: i think candles would be nice if they do n't make noise . grad a: they 're very good . phd b: oh , yeah . phd c: it would you know , it would real really mean that we should do short meetings when you turn off the { comment } turn off the air conditioning , grad a: carbon monoxide poisoning ? undergrad d: short meetings , that 's right . or yeah , sort of { comment } r r phd c: got to finish this meeting . undergrad d: tear t tear your clothing off to stay cool . phd c: that 's right . undergrad d: actually , the a th air the air conditioning 's still working , that 's just an auxiliary fan . phd c: right , i see . grad a: so phd c: so , um , in addition to this issue about the uw stuff there was announced today , uh , via the ldc , um , a corpus from i believe santa barbara . postdoc e: yeah , i saw it . i 've been watching for that corpus . phd c: um , of general spoken english . postdoc e: yeah . yep . phd c: and i do n't know exactly how they recorded it but apparently there 's a lot of different styles of speech and what not . grad a: mm - hmm . phd c: and postdoc e: they had people come in to a certain degree and they and they have dat recorders . phd c: i see . so it is sort of far field stuff . right ? postdoc e: i i assume so , actually , i had n't thought about that . unless they added close field later on but , um , i 've listened to some of those data and i , um , i 've been i i was actually on the advisory board for when they set the project up . grad a: mm - hmm . phd c: oh , ok . phd b: what 's it sound like ? postdoc e: i 'm glad to see that it got released . grad a: yeah , i i wish postdoc e: so it it 's a very nice thing . grad a: i wish we had someone here working on adaptation phd c: s grad a: because it would nice to be able to take that stuff and adapt it to a meeting setting . you know phd c: but it may be it may be useful in postdoc e: how do you mean do you mean mechanical adaptation or grad a: no , software , to adapt the speech recognition . postdoc e: ok . phd c: well , what i was thinking is it may be useful in transcribing , if it 's far field stuff , grad a: mm - hmm . phd c: right ? in doing , um , some of our first automatic speech recognition models , it may be useful to have that kind of data postdoc e: great idea . phd c: because that 's very different than any kind of data that we have so far . grad a: that 's true . postdoc e: and and their recording conditions are really clean . i mean , i 've i 've heard i 've listened to the data . grad a: well that 's not good , right ? phd c: that 's that 's not great . postdoc e: it sounds undergrad d: tr postdoc e: well but what i mean is that , um undergrad d: but far field means great distance ? i mean grad a: just these . undergrad d: not head mounted ? phd b: yeah . undergrad d: and so that 's why they 're getting away with just two channels or something , or are they using multiple dats ? postdoc e: um , oh , good question and i ca n't ans answer it . grad a: well we can look into it . postdoc e: i do n't know . phd c: no , and their web their web page did n't answer it either . so i 'm , i uh , was thinking that we should contact them . postdoc e: ok . phd c: so it 's that 's sort of a beside - the - point point . but . grad a: so we can get that just with , uh , media costs , undergrad d: still a point . phd c: right . grad a: is that right ? phd c: uh , in fact we get it for free grad a: oh . phd c: cuz they 're distributing it through the ldc . grad a: great . postdoc e: yep . grad a: so that would be yeah , that would be something to look into . so . phd c: so , i can i can actually arrange for it to arrive in short order if we 're postdoc e: the other thing too is from from a grad a: well , it 's silly to do unless we 're gon na have someone to work on it , so maybe we need to think about it a little bit . phd c: huh . postdoc e: the other thing too is that their their jus their transcription format is really nice and simple in in the discourse domain . but they also mentioned that they have it time aligned . i mean , i s i i saw that write - up . phd c: yeah . maybe we should maybe we should get a copy of it just to see what they did phd b: yeah , absolutely . grad a: yeah . phd c: so so that we can we can compare . postdoc e: it 's very nice . grad a: ok , why do n't you go ahead and do that then eric ? phd b: absolutely . phd c: alright , i 'll do that . i ca n't remember the name of the corpus . it 's corps - s postdoc e: csae . phd c: s postdoc e: corpus of spoken american english . phd c: right , ok . postdoc e: yeah , sp i 've been i was really pleased to see that . i knew that they they had had some funding problems in completing it phd b: uh - huh . phd c: yeah . postdoc e: but , um , phd c: well they 're postdoc e: this is clever . phd c: apparently this was like phase one postdoc e: got it through the ldc . phd c: and the there 's still more that they 're gon na do apparently or something like that unless of course they have funding issues postdoc e: great . great . phd c: and then then it ma they may not do phase two but from all the web documentation it looked like , `` oh , this is phase one `` , whatever that means . postdoc e: super . super . great . yeah , that i mean , they 're really well respected in the linguistics d side too and the discourse area , phd c: ok . postdoc e: and so this is a very good corpus . phd c: but , it uh it would also maybe help be helpful for liz , if she wanted to start working on some discourse issues , you know , looking at some of this data and then , grad a: right . phd c: you know so when she gets here maybe that might be a good thing for her . grad a: actually , that 's another thing i was thinking about is that maybe jane should talk to liz , to see if there are any transcription issues related to discourse that she needs to get marked . postdoc e: ok . phd c: maybe we should have a big meeting meeting . phd b: sure , of course . undergrad d: that would be a meeting meeting meeting ? grad a: a meeting meeting meeting . phd c: yeah . grad a: well this is the meeting about the meeting meeting meeting . so . phd c: oh . grad a: um . phd c: right . but maybe we should , uh find some day that liz uh , liz and andreas seem to be around more often . grad a: mm - hmm . phd c: so maybe we should find a day when they 're gon na be here and and morgan 's gon na be here , and we can meet , at least this subgroup . i mean , not necessarily have the u - dub people down . grad a: well , i was even thinking that maybe we need to at least ping the u - dub to see phd c: we need we need to talk to them some more . grad a: you know , say `` this is what we 're thinking about for our transcription `` , if nothing else . so , well w shall we move on and talk a little bit about transcription then ? phd b: mm - hmm . let 's . phd c: yeah . grad a: ok , so { comment } since that 's what we 're talking about . what we 're using right now is a tool , um , from this french group , called `` transcriber `` that seems to work very well . um , so it has a , uh , nice useful tcl - tk user interface and , uh , undergrad d: thi - this is the process of converting audio to text ? grad a: right . undergrad d: and this requires humans just like the the stp stuff . grad a: yes , yeah . right , right . so we 're we 're at this point only looking for word level . so all all so what you have to do is just identify a segment of speech in time , and then write down what was said within it , and identify the speaker . and so the things we that we know that i know i want are the text , the start and end , and the speaker . but other people are interested in for example stress marking . and so jane is doing primary stress , um , stress marks as well . um , and then things like repairs , and false starts , and , filled pauses , and all that other sort of stuff , we have to decide how much of that we wan na do . postdoc e: i did include a glo { comment } uh , a certain first pass . my my view on it was when you have a repair then , uh it seems i mean , we saw , there was this presentation in the one of the speech group meetings about how grad a: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and i think liz has done some stuff too on that , that it , uh that you get it bracketed in terms of like well , if it 's parenthetical , which i know that liz has worked on , then uh y y you 'll have different prosodic aspects . grad a: mm - hmm . phd b: hmm . postdoc e: and then also if it 's a r if it 's a repair where they 're like what i just did , then it 's nice to have sort of a sense of the continuity of the utterance , the start to be to the finish . and , uh , it 's a little bit deceptive if you include the repai the pre - repair part and sometimes or of it 's in the middle . anyway , so what i was doing was bracketing them to indicate that they were repairs which is n't uh , very time - consuming . grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: i is there already some sort of plan in place for how this gon na be staffed or done ? or is it real is that what we 're talking about here ? grad a: well , that 's part of the thing we 're talking about . so what we wanted to do was have jane do basically one meeting 's worth , you know , forty minutes to an hour , postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad a: and postdoc e: as a pilot study . undergrad d: yourself ? grad a: yeah . undergrad d: it this is this is like five times real time or ten times real time postdoc e: yeah , as a pilot study . grad a: ten times about , is and so one of the things was to get an estimate of how long it would take , and then also what tools we would use . and so the next decision which has to be made actually pretty soon is how are we gon na do it ? so . undergrad d: and so you make jane do the first one so then she can decide , oh , we do n't need all this stuff , just the words are fine . postdoc e: that 's right , that 's right . phd b: that 's right . postdoc e: i wan na hear about these uh , we have a g you were s continuing with the transcription conventions for s grad a: r right , so so one one option is to get linguistics grad students and undergrads to do it . and apparently that 's happened in the past . and i think that 's probably the right way to do it . um , it will require a post pass , i mean people will have to look at it more than once to make sure that it 's been done correctly , but i just ca n't imagine that we 're gon na get anything that much better from a commercial one . and the commercial ones i 'm sure will be much more expensive . undergrad d: ca n't we get joy to do it all ? grad a: yeah right . postdoc e: no , that 's grad a: we will just get joy and jane to do everything . undergrad d: is tha was n't that what she was doing before ? yeah , that 's right . grad a: but , you know , that 's what we 're talking about is getting some slaves who who need money undergrad d: right . grad a: and , uh , duh , again o postdoc e: i object to that characterization ! phd b: oh , really . grad a: i meant joy . and so again , i have to say `` are we recording `` postdoc e: oh , thank you . ok . grad a: and then say , uh , morgan has has consistently resisted telling me how much money we have . undergrad d: right . well , the answer is zero . grad a: so . undergrad d: there 's a reason why he 's resisted . grad a: well , if it 's zero then we ca n't do any transcription . undergrad d: but . grad a: i mean , cuz we 're we undergrad d: right . phd b: i have such a hard name . grad a: i mean , i i ca n't imagine us doing it ourselves . right ? undergrad d: well , we already we already we already have a plan in place for the first meeting . grad a: n right . undergrad d: right ? that 's postdoc e: well th there is als yeah , really . there is also the o other possibility which is if you can provide not money but instructional experience or some other perks , you can you could get people to to um , to do it in exchange . grad a: right . undergrad d: well , i b but seriously , i i mean , morgan 's obviously in a bind over this and thing to do is just the field of dreams theory , which is we we go ahead as though there will be money at the time that we need the money . grad a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: and that 's that 's the best we can do . grad a: right . phd b: right . undergrad d: i b to not do anything until we get money is is ridiculous . grad a: right . undergrad d: we 're not gon na do any get anything done if we do that . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . grad a: so at any rate , jane was looking into the possibility of getting students , at is that right ? talking to people about that ? postdoc e: i 'm afraid i have n't made any progress in that front yet . grad a: ok . postdoc e: i should 've sent email and i have n't yet . grad a: yeah , right . so , uh undergrad d: i d do so until you actually have a little experience with what this this french thing does we do n't even have postdoc e: and i do have grad a: she 's already done quite a bit . undergrad d: oh , we have . postdoc e: i have a bunch of hours , grad a: yeah . undergrad d: i 'm sorry . so that 's where you came up with the f the ten x number ? postdoc e: yeah . undergrad d: or is that really just a guess ? postdoc e: actually that 's the the one people usually use , ten x . phd c: how fast are you ? postdoc e: and i have n't really calculated how fast am i ? undergrad d: yeah i postdoc e: i have n't done a s see , i 've been at the same time doing kind of a boot strapping in deciding on the transcription conventions that that are you know , and and stuff like , you know , how much phd b: mmm . phd c: right . postdoc e: there 's some interesting human factors problems like , yeah , what span of of time is it useful to segment the thing into in order to uh , transcribe it the most quickly . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: cuz then , you know , you get like if you get a span of five words , that 's easy . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: but then you have to take the time to mark it . and then there 's the issue of it 's easier to hear it th right the first time if you 've marked it at a boundary instead of somewhere in the middle , phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: cuz then the word 's bisected or whatever and and so i mean , i 've been sort of playing with , uh , different ways of mar cuz i 'm thinking , you know , i mean , if you could get optimal instructions you could cut back on the number of hours it would take . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: d does uh this tool you 're using is strictly it does n't do any speech recognition does it ? grad a: no . postdoc e: no , it does n't but what a super tool . it 's a great environment . undergrad d: but but is there anyway to to wire a speech recognizer up to it and actually run it through postdoc e: that 's an interesting idea . grad a: we 've we 've thought about doing that postdoc e: hey ! grad a: but the recognition quality is gon na be horrendous . undergrad d: well , a couple things . phd b: wow . undergrad d: first of all the time marking you 'd get you could get by a tool . phd b: that 's true . undergrad d: and so if the if if the issue really postdoc e: that 's interesting . undergrad d: uh , i 'm think about the close caption that you see running by on on live news casts . grad a: most of those are done by a person . undergrad d: you know , yo i know i know that . postdoc e: yeah , i undergrad d: no , i understand . and in a lot of them you see typos and things like that , grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: but it but it occurs to me that it may be a lot easier to correct things than it is to do things from scratch , no matter how wonderful the tool is . grad a: yeah . yeah , we undergrad d: but if if there was a way to merge the two phd c: well , i mean , but sometimes it 's easier to type out something instead of going through and figuring out which is the right grad a: i mean , we 've talked about it postdoc e: that 'd be fun . grad a: but phd c: i mean , it depends on the error rate , right ? undergrad d: well s but but again the timing is for fr should be for free . the timing should be phd c: but we do n't care about the timing of the words . undergrad d: well i thought you just that 's said that was a critical issue . grad a: we do n't care about the timing of the words , just of the utterances . postdoc e: no , uh the the boundary phd c: we cut it s s phd b: we do n't we do n't know , actually . postdoc e: boundary . phd b: we have n't decided which which time we care about , and that 's kind of one of the things that you 're saying , is like you have the option to put in more or less timing data and , uh , be in the absence of more specific instructions , we 're trying to figure out what the most convenient thing to do is . grad a: yeah , so so what what she 's done so far , is sort of more or less breath g not breath groups , { comment } sort of phrases , continuous phrases . phd b: yeah . grad a: and so , um , that 's nice because you you separate when you do an extract , you get a little silence on either end . so that seems to work really well . postdoc e: that 's ideal . grad a: um . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: although i was i you know , the alternative , which i was sort of experimenting with before i ran out of time , recently was , um that , you know , ev if it were like an arbitrary segment of time i t pre - marked cuz it does take time to put those markings in . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: it 's really the i the interface is wonderful because , you know , the time it takes is you listen to it , and then you press the return key . but then , you know , it 's like , uh , you press the tab key to stop the flow and and , uh , the return key to p to put in a marking of the boundary . but , you know , obviously there 's a lag between when you hear it and when you can press the return key phd b: yeah . postdoc e: so it 's slightly delayed , so then you you listen to it a second time and move it over to here . undergrad d: a postdoc e: so that takes time . undergrad d: i a postdoc e: now if it could all be pre - marked at some , l you know , good undergrad d: ar but grad a: hmm . undergrad d: are are those d delays adjustable ? those delays adjustable ? see a lot of people who actually build stuff with human computer interfaces understand that delay , phd b: yeah . undergrad d: and and so when you by the time you click it it 'll be right on because it 'll go back in time to put the postdoc e: yeah . phd b: it could do that postdoc e: yeah , uh , not in this case . grad a: we could program that pretty easily , phd b: could n't it . postdoc e: it has other grad a: could n't we dan ? yeah , mis mister tcl ? phd b: yeah . postdoc e: oh , interesting point . phd b: i would have thought so , yeah . postdoc e: ah ! { comment } interesting point . phd b: mmm . postdoc e: ok , that would make a difference . grad a: but , um postdoc e: i mean , it 's not bad grad a: but , if we tried to do automatic speaker id . postdoc e: but it does take twice . grad a: i mean , cuz primarily the markings are at speaker change . phd b: yeah , yeah , but grad a: but that would be phd b: but we 've got we 've got the most channel data . we 'd have to do it from your signal . right . i mean , we 've we 've got we 've got a lot of data . postdoc e: oh , good point ! ah ! grad a: yeah , i guess the question is how much time will it really save us versus the time to write all the tools to do it . postdoc e: we 've got volume . phd b: right . but the chances are if we if we 're talking about collecting ten or a hundred hours , which is going to take a hundred or a thousand hours to transcribe undergrad d: if grad a: but undergrad d: if we can go from ten x to five x we 're doing a big grad a: we 're gon na need we 're gon na need ten to a hundred hours to train the tools , and validate the tools the do the d to to do all this anyway . phd c: right . so maybe postdoc e: wow . phd b: if we 're just doing silence detection postdoc e: but but it op grad a: i knew you were gon na do that . just saw it coming . postdoc e: i 'm sorry . i wish you had told me wish you 'd told me . undergrad d: put put it on your sweater . postdoc e: at what part ? ok , i 'm alright . phd b: um , i it seems like well , uh , i do n't know . yeah . i mean , it it 's it 's maybe like a week 's work to get to do something like this . so forty or fifty hours . phd c: right . postdoc e: could you get it so that with so it would it would detect volume on a channel and insert a marker ? and the the format 's really transparent . phd b: sure . phd c: yeah . postdoc e: it 's just a matter of a very c clear it 's xml , is n't it ? grad a: mm - hmm . postdoc e: it 's very i mean , i looked at the the file format and it 's just it has a t a time a time indication and then something or other , and then an end time or something or other . phd c: so maybe maybe we could try the following experiment . take the data that you 've already transcribed postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd c: and undergrad d: is this already in the past or already in the future ? phd c: already in the past . undergrad d: you 've already you 've already done some ? grad a: she 's she 's done about half a meeting . phd c: she she 's done one she 's one postdoc e: yes i have . undergrad d: oh - oh , i see . phd c: right . undergrad d: ok , grad a: right ? phd c: right . undergrad d: good . grad a: about half ? phd c: i 'm go postdoc e: s i 'm not sure if it 's that 's much but anyway , enough to work with . phd c: right . phd b: several minutes . phd c: um , and and throw out the words , but keep the time markings . and then go through i mean , and go through and and try and re - transcribe it , given that we had perfect boundary detection . postdoc e: ok . good idea . phd c: and see if it see if it see if it feels easier to you . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: and forgetting all the words because you 've been thr postdoc e: yeah , that 's what i was thinking . i 'd i 'd be cheating a little bit g with familiarity effect . phd c: yeah , i mean uh , that 's part of the problem is , is that what we really need is somebody else to come along . phd b: well , no , you should do it you should do it do it again from scratch and then do it again at the boundaries . so you do the whole thing three times and then we get phd c: yeah . postdoc e: no . now , there 's a plan . undergrad d: and then then w since we need some statistics do it three more . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: and so you 'll get you 'll get down to one point two x by the time you get done . postdoc e: oh , yeah . i 'll do that tomorrow . i should have it finished by the end of the day . undergrad d: no , but the thing is the fact that she 's she 's did it before just might give a lower bound . that 's all . phd b: yeah . phd c: right . undergrad d: uh , which is fine . postdoc e: exactly . undergrad d: it 's and if the lower bound is nine x then w it 's a waste of time . postdoc e: yeah . phd c: right . postdoc e: well , uh but there 's an extra problem which is that i did n't really keep accurate phd b: oh ! postdoc e: uh , it was n't a pure task the first time , phd b: yeah . postdoc e: so uh , it 's gon na be an upper bound in in that case . and it 's not really strictly comparable . so i think though it 's a good proposal to be used on a new a new batch of text that i have n't yet done yet in the same meeting . could use it on the next segment of the text . phd b: the point we where do we get the the the oracle boundaries from ? phd c: right . phd b: or the boundaries . grad a: yeah , one person would have to assign the boundaries and the and the other person would have to postdoc e: well , but could n't i do it for the next phd b: we we we could get fake grad a: i mean that 's easy enough . postdoc e: oh , i see what you mean . grad a: i could do that . postdoc e: well , but the oracle boundaries would come from volume on a partic specific channel would n't they ? grad a: no , no . phd b: that would be the automatic boundaries . phd c: no , no , no , no . you wan na know given given a perfect human segmentation , i mean , you wan na know how well postdoc e: yeah . phd c: i mean , the the question is , is it worth giving you the segmentation ? postdoc e: oh , i see what you mean . grad a: i mean , that that 's easy enough . phd c: right . postdoc e: yeah . grad a: i could generate the segmentation and and you could do the words , and time yourself on it . so . undergrad d: a little double - blind - ear kind of thing . grad a: yep . postdoc e: i see . ok . grad a: so it that might be worth doing . postdoc e: that 's good . i like that . grad a: that would at least tell us whether it 's worth spending a week or two trying to get a tool , that will compute the segmentations . phd c: right . undergrad d: and the thing to keep in mind too about this tool , guys is that sure , you can do the computation for what we 're gon na do in the future but if if uw 's talking about doing two , or three , or five times as much stuff and they can use the same tool , then obviously there 's a real multiplier there . grad a: right . postdoc e: and the other thing too is with with speaker identification , if if that could handle speaker identification that 's a big deal . phd b: well it w phd c: right . undergrad d: well , use it . yeah , that 's why we s bought the expensive microphones . postdoc e: ok . yeah , i mean , that 's a nice feature . grad a: yep . phd b: yeah , yeah . postdoc e: that 's a major that 's like , one of the two things that phd c: i mean , there 's gon na there 's gon na be in the meeting , like the reading group meeting that we had the other day , that 's it 's gon na be a bit of a problem phd b: ok . phd c: because , like , i was n't wearing a microphone phd b: yes . phd c: f and there were other people that were n't wearing microphones . grad a: that undergrad d: but you did n't say anything worth while anyway , right ? grad a: that 'll s phd b: right . phd c: that 's pretty much true postdoc e: yeah . grad a: it might save ninety percent of the work though . phd c: but but , yes . grad a: so . phd b: so i i need to we need to look at what what the final output is but it seems like we it does n't it seems like it 's not really not that hard to have an automatic tool to generate the phrase marks , and the speaker , and speaker identity without putting in the words . grad a: yeah . i 've already become pretty familiar with the format , postdoc e: that 'd be so great . grad a: so it would be easy . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: yeah . yeah . grad a: if you 'd tell me where it is , huh ? postdoc e: we did n't finish the the part of work already completed on this , did we ? i mean , you you talked a little bit about the transcription conventions , grad a: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and , i guess you 've mentioned in your progress report , or status report , that you had written a script to convert it into so , i when i i the it 's quickest for me in terms of the transcription part to say something like , you know , if if adam spoke to , um to just say , `` a colon `` , like who could be , you know , i mean at the beginning of the line . phd b: mmm . postdoc e: and e colon instead of entering the interface for speaker identification and clicking on the thing , uh , indicating the speaker id . so , and then he has a script that will convert it into the the thing that , uh , would indicate speaker id . grad a: it 's pretty cute . postdoc e: if that 's clear . phd c: ok . grad a: but at any rate . so , um , postdoc e: it 's perl script . grad a: right . so so i think the guess at ten x seems to be pretty standard . everyone more or less everyone you talk to says about ten times for hard technical transcription . postdoc e: mm - hmm . undergrad d: using wh using stone age postdoc e: yeah . undergrad d: using stone age tools . postdoc e: that 's right . grad a: using using stone age tools . i mean , i looked at cyber transcriber postdoc e: yeah , well that 's true , but grad a: which is a service that you send an audio file , they do a first - pass speech recognition . and then they they do a clean up . but it 's gon na be horrible . they 're never gon na be able to do a meeting like this . phd b: no . undergrad d: right . postdoc e: what i just approximately , what did you find out in terms of price or or whatever ? grad a: well , for cyber transcriber they do n't quote a price . they want you to call and and talk . so for other services , um , they were about thirty dollars an hour . postdoc e: of of tape ? grad a: thirty so , yeah . postdoc e: or of action ? grad a: for thirty dollars an hour for of their work . postdoc e: ok . ok . oh , of their grad a: so so if it 's ten times it 's three hundred dollars an hour . postdoc e: oh ! phd c: so that 's three that 's three hours . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: d did you talk to anybody that does closed captioning for for uh , tv ? phd c: right . grad a: no . undergrad d: cuz they a usually at the end of the show they 'll tell what the name of the company is , the captioning company that 's doing it . grad a: mm - hmm . yeah , so so my my search was pretty cursory . postdoc e: interesting . grad a: it was just a net search . and , uh , so it was only people who have web pages and are doing stuff through that . undergrad d: well , you know , the the thing the thing about this is thinking kind of , maybe a little more globally than i should here but { comment } that really this could be a big contribution we could make . uh , i mean , we 've been through the stp thing , we know what it what it 's like to to manage the manage the process , and admittedly they might have been looking for more detail than what we 're looking for here but it was a it was a big hassle , right ? phd b: yeah . undergrad d: i mean , uh , you know , they they constantly could 've reminding people and going over it . and clearly some new stuff needs to be done here . and it 's it 's only our time , where `` our `` of course includes dan , dan and you guys . it does n't include me at all . uh . j just seems like phd b: yeah , i mean i do n't know if we 'd be able to do any thing f to help stp type problems . but certainly for this problem we can do a lot better than undergrad d: bec why ? because they wanted a lot more detail ? grad a: right . phd b: no . because they had because they only had two speakers , right ? i mean , the the segmentation problem is grad a: trivial . undergrad d: only had two . grad a: they had two speakers over the telephone . undergrad d: oh , i see . so what took them so long ? grad a: um , mostly because they were doing much lower level time . phd b: yeah . grad a: so they were doing phone and syllable transcription , as well as , uh , word transcription . undergrad d: right . right . phd c: right . postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad a: and so we 're w we decided early on that we were not gon na do that . undergrad d: i see . but there 's still the same issue of managing the process , of of reviewing and keeping the files straight , and all this stuff , that which is clearly a hassle . grad a: yep . phd b: yeah . grad a: right . and so so what i 'm saying is that if we hire an external service i think we can expect three hundred dollars an hour . phd b: yeah . grad a: i think that 's the ball park . there were several different companies that and the the range was very tight for technical documents . twenty - eight to thirty - two dollars an hour . phd c: and who who knows if they 're gon na be able to m manage multal multiple channel data ? phd b: yeah , they wo n't . grad a: they wo n't . phd b: they w they 'll refuse to do it . grad a: we 'll have to mix them . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . phd c: right . phd b: no , but i mean , they they they wo n't they wo n't they will refuse to transcribe this kind of material . postdoc e: and then there 's the problem also that phd b: that 's not what they 're d quoting for , right ? grad a: yes , it is . undergrad d: well , they might they might quote it phd b: for quoting meetings ? grad a: sev - several of them say that they 'll do meetings , and conferences , and s and so on . none of them specifically said that they would do speaker id , or speaker change mark . phd b: wow . yeah . grad a: they all just said transcription . undergrad d: th - th the th there may be just multiplier for five people costs twice as much and for ten people co { comment } something like that . phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . grad a: well , the the way it worked is it it was scaled . so what they had is , if it 's an easy task it costs twenty - four dollars an hour and it will take maybe five or six times real time . and what they said is for the hardest tasks , bad acoustics , meeting settings , it 's thirty - two dollars an hour and it takes about ten times real time . so i think that we can count on that being about what they would do . phd b: i see . yeah . grad a: it would probably be a little more phd b: right . postdoc e: yeah . grad a: because we 're gon na want them to do speaker marking . undergrad d: a lot of companies i 've worked for y the , uh the person leading the meeting , the executive or whatever , would sort of go around the room and and mentally calculate h how many dollars per hour this meeting was costing , grad a: so . undergrad d: right ? in university atmosphere you get a little different thing . but you know , it 's a lot like , `` he 's worth fifty an hour , he 's worth `` and so he so here we 're thinking , `` well let 's see , if the meeting goes another hour it 's going to be another thousand dollars . `` you know ? it 's grad a: yep , we have to have a short meeting . undergrad d: so ch so every everybody ta talk really fast . postdoc e: that 's very interesting . grad a: stop talking ! phd b: yeah . undergrad d: let 's get it over with . postdoc e: talk slowly but with few words . grad a: and clearly . phd b: that 's right . undergrad d: and only talk when you 're pointed to . postdoc e: there you go . grad a: content words only . postdoc e: we could have some telegraphic meetings . that might be interesting . phd b: yeah , it 'd be cheap . undergrad d: phd b: cheap to transcribe . grad a: so . but at any rate , so we we have a ballpark on how much it would cost if we send it out . undergrad d: and we 're talking about do doing how many hours worth of meetings ? grad a: thirty or forty . undergrad d: so thirty or forty thousand dollars . phd b: well , for ten thousand dollars . postdoc e: yeah . phd c: so , meanwhile undergrad d: oh . what well , it was thirty times phd b: three hundred . grad a: three hundred dollars an hour . undergrad d: oh , i 'm sorry , three hundred . grad a: right . undergrad d: right , i w got an extra factor of three there . phd c: so it 's thirty dollars an hour , essentially , right ? undergrad d: yeah . phd c: but we can pay a graduate student seven dollars an hour . and the question is what 's the difference phd b: how how much lower are they ? phd c: or ei eight dollars . what do you know what the going rate is ? it 's it 's on the order of eight to ten . postdoc e: i think uh that would give us a a good good estimate . phd c: i think . but i 'm not sure . postdoc e: i 'd i 'd say phd b: ten . postdoc e: yeah , i was gon na say eight you 'd say ten ? phd c: let 's say ten . phd b: yeah , give them a break . phd c: cuz it 's easier . undergrad d: the - these are not for engineering graduate students , right ? grad a: right , these are linguistics grad students . six . phd c: yeah , i i i do n't i do n't know what the i do n't know what the standard undergrad d: that 's right . phd c: but there is a standard pay scale grad a: mm - hmm . phd c: i just do n't know what it is . postdoc e: yeah , that 's right . that 's right . phd c: um , so that means that even if it takes them thirty times real time it 's cheaper to to do graduate students . postdoc e: and there 's another aspect too . grad a: i mean , that 's why i said originally , that i could n't imagine sending it out 's gon na be cheaper . phd b: no , it is n't . so . postdoc e: the other thing too is that , uh , if they were linguistics they 'd be you know , in terms of like the post editing , i uh tu uh content wise they might be easier to handle cuz they might get it more right the first time . grad a: and also we would have control of i mean , we could give them feedback . whereas if we do a service it 's gon na be limited amount . phd b: yep , yep . postdoc e: mmm . grad a: i mean , we ca n't tell them , you know , `` for this meeting we really wan na mark stress postdoc e: good point . phd b: yep . grad a: and for this meeting we want `` phd b: no . postdoc e: good point . grad a: and and they 're not gon na provide they 're not gon na provide stress , they 're not gon na re provide repairs , they 're not gon na provide they they may or may not provide speaker id . so that we would have to do our own tools to do that . so postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad a: i just phd b: yeah . undergrad d: just hypoth hypothetically assuming that that we go ahead and ended up using graduate students . i who who 's the person in charge ? who 's gon na be the steve here ? grad a: i hope it 's jane . undergrad d: you ? grad a: is that alright ? postdoc e: oh , interesting . um , now would this involve some manner of uh , monetary compensation or would i be the voluntary , uh , coordinator of multiple transcribers for checking ? grad a: um , i would imagine there would be some monetary involved but we 'd have to talk to morgan about it . phd b: yeah , out of out of adam 's pocket . phd c: yeah . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: you know , it just means you have to stop working for dave . see ? postdoc e: oh , undergrad d: that 's why dave should have been here . postdoc e: i do n't wan na stop working for dave . undergrad d: to pr protect his people . grad a: well , i would like you to do it because you have a lot more experience than i do , postdoc e: oh , cool . yeah . grad a: but if if that 's not feasible , i will do it with you as an advisor . postdoc e: uh - huh . undergrad d: w we 'd like you to do it and we 'd like to pay you . postdoc e: we 'll see . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: not being morgan though , it 's postdoc e: ok . phd c: right . postdoc e: oh , i see . phd b: we 'd like to . unfortunately postdoc e: well undergrad d: yeah . postdoc e: yeah . grad a: yeah , six dollars an hour . postdoc e: yeah , i see . phd c: that 's a undergrad d: and and then postdoc e: ok . boy , if i wanted to increase my income i could start doing the transcribing again . phd b: yeah , that 's right . yeah . undergrad d: an an an and be and be sure and say , would you like fries with that when you 're thinking about your pay scale . postdoc e: i see . good . yeah , no , that i i would be interested in that in becoming involved in the project in some aspect like that grad a: ok . more . postdoc e: more . yeah . uh - huh . yeah . grad a: um , any more on transcript we wan na talk about ? phd b: what s so what are you so you 've done some portion of the first meeting . and what 's your plan ? postdoc e: yes . mm - hmm . phd b: to carry on doing it ? postdoc e: what well , you know what i thought was right now we have p so i gave him the proposal for the transcription conventions . he made his , uh , suggestion of improvement . phd b: ok . postdoc e: the the it 's a good suggestion . so as far as i 'm concerned those transcription conventions are fixed right now . and so my next plan would be phd b: what what do they what do they cover ? postdoc e: they 're very minimal . so , it would be good to just to summarize that . so , um , one of them is the idea of how to indicate speaker change , phd b: yeah . postdoc e: and this is a way which meshes well with with , uh , making it so that , uh , you know , on the at the phd b: yeah . postdoc e: boy , it 's such a nice interface . when you when you get the , um you you get the speech signal you also get down beneath it , an indication of , uh , if you have two speakers overlapping in a s in a single segment , you see them one displayed one above each other . and then at the same time the top s part of the screen is the actual verbatim thing . you can clip click on individual utterances and it 'll take you immediately to that part of the speech signal , and play it for you . and you can , eh you can work pretty well between those two these two things . undergrad d: is there a limit to the number of speakers ? grad a: um , the user interface only allows two . and so if if you 're using their interface to specify overlapping speakers you can only do two . phd b: hmm . grad a: but my script can handle any . and their save format can handle any . and so , um , using this the convention that jane and i have discussed , you can have as many overlapping speakers as you want . undergrad d: do y is this a , uh , university project ? phd b: yeah . undergrad d: th - this is the french software , right ? grad a: yeah , french . phd b: yeah , yeah , grad a: yeah . and they 're they 've been quite responsive . phd b: their academic . undergrad d: eh grad a: i 've been exchanging emails on various issues . phd b: oh , really ? undergrad d: uh , did you ask them to change the interface for more speakers ? postdoc e: oh . grad a: yes , and they said that 's on in in the works for the next version . undergrad d: good . phd c: oh , so multi multichannels . undergrad d: good . grad a: multichannels was also well , they said they wanted to do it but that the code is really very organized around single channels . so i think that 's n unlikely to ha happen . phd c: i see . ok . undergrad d: do - do you know what they 're using it for ? why 'd they develop it ? grad a: for this exact task ? phd c: for transcription . undergrad d: are they linguists ? phd c: it 's undergrad d: but i mean , are they are they linguists or are they speech recognition people ? grad a: i think they 're linguists . postdoc e: ho phd b: linguists . postdoc e: hmm . phd b: yeah . phd c: they 're they have some connection to the ldc cuz the ldc has been advising them on this process , the linguistic data consortium . um , undergrad d: mm - hmm . phd c: so but a apart from that . grad a: it 's also all the source is available . phd c: yeah . grad a: so . phd c: right . grad a: if you if you speak tcltk . undergrad d: great . mm - hmm . grad a: and they have they 've actually asked if we are willing to do any development and i said , well , maybe . phd c: right . undergrad d: good . grad a: so if we want if we did if we did something like programmed in a delay , which actually i think is a great idea , um , i 'm sure they would want that incorporated back in . postdoc e: mm - hmm . yeah , i do too . phd b: mm - hmm . undergrad d: their pre pre - lay . phd b: pre - lay . grad a: way . postdoc e: pre - lay . well , and they 've thought about things . you know , i mean , they they do have so you have when you when you play it back , um , it 's it is useful to have , uh , a a break mark to se segment it . but it would n't be strictly necessary cuz you can use the uh , the tabbed key to toggle the sound on and off . i mean , it 'll stop the s speech you know if you if you press a tab . and , um . and so , uh , that 's a nice feature . and then also once you 've put a break in then you have the option of cycling through the unit . you could do it like multiply until you get { comment } crazy and decide to stop cycling through that unit . undergrad d: loop it ? yo - you n you know , there 's al also the the user interface that 's missing . postdoc e: or or or undergrad d: it 's missing from all of our offices , and that is some sort of analog input for something like this . it 's what audio people actually use of course . it 's something that wh when you move your hand further , the sound goes faster past it , like fast forward . you know , like a joy stick or a uh , you could wire a mouse or trackball to do something like that . postdoc e: why , that 's that 's not something i wanted to have happen . undergrad d: no , but i 'm saying if this is what professionals who actually do this kind of thing for for for m for video or for audio where you you need to do this , postdoc e: i see . uh - huh . undergrad d: and so you get very good at sort of jostling back and forth , rather than hitting tab , and backspace , and carriage return , and enter , and things like that . phd b: mmm . mmm . postdoc e: uh - huh . grad a: yeah , we talked about things like foot pedals and other analog phd c: yeah . undergrad d: mm - hmm . grad a: so i mean , tho those are things we could do but i i just do n't know how much it 's worth doing . i mean we 're just gon na have undergrad d: ye - yeah . phd c: yeah . undergrad d: right . postdoc e: yeah , i i agree . they they have several options . so , uh , you know , i mentioned the looping option . another option is it 'll pause when it reaches the end of the boundary . and then to get to the next boundary you just press tab grad a: hmm . postdoc e: and it goes on to the next unit . undergrad d: cool . postdoc e: i mean , it 's very nicely thought out . phd c: hmm . postdoc e: they thought about and also it 'll go around the c the , uh , i wan na say cursor but i 'm not sure if that 's the right thing . grad a: point , whatever . postdoc e: anyway , you can so they thought about different ways of having windows that you c uh work within , phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and but so in terms of the con the conventions , then , uh , basically , uh , it 's strictly orthographic which means with some w provisions for , uh , w uh , colloquial forms . so if a person said , `` cuz `` instead of `` because `` then i put a an apostrophe at the beginning of the word and then in in double ang angle brackets what the full lexical item would be . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and this could be something that was handled by a table or something but i think to have a convention marking it as a non - standard or wha i do n't mean standard but a a a non uh , ortho orthographic , uh , whatever . phd b: mm - hmm . grad a: non - canonical . phd c: mm - hmm . postdoc e: `` gon na `` or `` wan na `` , you know , the same thing . and and there would be limits to how much refinement you want in indicating something as non - standard pres pronunciation . phd c: how are you handling backchannels ? postdoc e: backchannels ? grad a: comments . postdoc e: um , you know oh , yes , there was some in my view , when i when you 've got it densely overlapping , um , i did n't worry about i did n't worry about s specific start times . phd c: what do you mean by du postdoc e: i sort of thought that this is not gon na be { comment } easily processed anyway and maybe i should n't spend too much time getting exactly when the person said `` no `` , or , you know , uh , i `` immediate `` . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: and instead just sort of rendered `` within this time slot , there were two people speaking during part of it phd b: yeah . postdoc e: and if you want more detail , figure it out for yourself `` , phd b: mm - hmm . grad a: well , i think what w what eric was talking about was channels other than the direct speech , phd c: i see . postdoc e: was sort of the way i felt @ @ grad a: right ? phd c: well , yeah , what i mean is wh i mean , when somebody says `` uh - huh `` in the middle of , uh , a @ @ grad a: yep . postdoc e: uh - huh . that happened very seldom . phd c: oh , cuz i was i was listening to dan was agreeing a lot to things that you were saying as you were talking . undergrad d: uh - huh . uh - huh . postdoc e: oh , well , thank you dan . phd c: so . postdoc e: appreciate it . well , if it if there was a word like `` right `` , you know , then i wou i would indicate that it happened within the same tem time frame grad a: yeah , there 's an overlapping mark . phd c: and phd b: yeah . postdoc e: but would n't say exactly when it happened . undergrad d: i 'll be right back . phd b: i transcribed a minute of this stuff phd c: i see . phd b: and there was a lot of overlapping . it was postdoc e: a lot of overlapping , yeah . grad a: well there there 's a lot of overlapping at the beginning and end . phd b: yeah . yeah . grad a: huge amounts . phd b: it was at the beginning . grad a: um , when when no one i when we 're not actually in the meeting , and we 're all sort of separated , and and doing things . but even during the meeting there 's a lot of overlap but it it 's marked pretty clearly . um , some of the backchannel stuff jane had some comments and but i think a lot of them were because you were at the meeting . and so i think that that often often you ca n't tell . postdoc e: yeah , well that 's true . that 's another issue . grad a: i mean , jane had had comments like uh , to who who the person was speaking to . phd c: yeah . postdoc e: yeah . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: only when it was otherwise gon na be puzzling grad a: yeah . postdoc e: because he was in the other room talking . grad a: yeah , but someone who , uh , was just the transcriber would n't have known that . postdoc e: yeah . grad a: or when dan said , `` i wa i was n't talking to you `` . phd c: right . postdoc e: that 's true . i know . undergrad d: so you take a bathroom break in the middle and and keep your head mount grad a: you have to turn off your mike . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: oh , you do ? phd b: you do n't have to . postdoc e: well he was so so he was checking the meter levels and and we were handling things while he was labeling the the whatever it was , the pda ? grad a: mm - hmm . phd b: uh - huh . postdoc e: and and so he was in sort of you were sort of talking you know , so i was saying , like `` and i could label this one left . right ? `` and he and he said , `` i do n't see anything `` . and he said he said , `` i was n't talking to you `` . or it was n't it did n't sound quite that rude . grad a: but postdoc e: but really , no , uh w you know in the context if you know he ca n't hear what he 's saying grad a: but when you w when you listen to it undergrad d: he he it was a lot funnier if you were there though . postdoc e: uh , yeah , grad a: well what what it what happens is if you 're a transcriber listening to it it sounds like dan is just being a total totally impolite . postdoc e: i know . well , you 'll see . you can listen to it . oh , i thought it was you who was . no , well , but you were you were asking off the wall questions . grad a: um but but if you knew that that i was n't actually in the room , and that dan was n't talking to me , it it became ok . so . phd b: i see . undergrad d: so th postdoc e: and that 's w that 's where i added comments . phd c: hmm . postdoc e: the rest of the time i did n't bother with who was talking to who but but this was unusual circum circumstance . undergrad d: so this is this is gon na go on the meeting meeting transcriber bloopers tape , right ? grad a: yes . right . postdoc e: well and part of it was funny , uh reason was because it was a mixed signal so you could n't get any clues from volume that , you know , he was really far away from this conversation . grad a: stereo . yeah . postdoc e: you could n't do that symmetrically in any case . phd b: no . grad a: oh . i should rewrite the mix tool to put half the people in one channel and half in the other . i have a auto - gain - mixer tool that mixes all the head mounted microphones into one signal postdoc e: that 's a good idea . undergrad d: mm - hmm . grad a: and that seems to work really well for the uh transcribers . undergrad d: great . postdoc e: but i thought it would be you know , i i did n't wan na add more contextual comments than were needed but that , it seemed to me , clarified that the con what was going on . and , uh ok , phd c: so , s postdoc e: so normalization phd c: i was just gon na ask , uh , so i just wanted to c sort of finish off the question i had about backchannels , phd b: mmm . phd c: if that 's ok , postdoc e: yeah . ok . phd c: which which was , so say somebody 's talking for a while postdoc e: yeah . phd c: and somebody goes `` mm - hmm `` in the middle of it , and and and what not , does the conversation come out from the or the person who 's speaking for the long time as one segment and then there 's this little tiny segment of this other speaker or does it does the fact that there 's a backchannel split the the the it in two . postdoc e: ok , my my focus was to try and maintain conten con content continuity and , uh , to keep it within what he was saying . like i would n't say breath groups but prosodic or intonational groups as much as possible . so if someone said `` mm - hmm `` in the middle of a of someone 's , uh , uh , intonational contour , i i indicated it as , like what you just did . phd c: ok . postdoc e: then i indicated it as a segment which contained @ @ { comment } this utterance plus an overlap . phd b: but that 's but there 's only one there 's only one time boundary for both speakers , phd c: ok . phd b: right ? postdoc e: yeah , that 's right . and you know , it could be made more precise than that phd c: i see , postdoc e: but i just thought phd c: i see , ok . postdoc e: yeah . phd c: right . undergrad d: i think whenever we use these speech words we should always do the thing like you 're talking about , accent , postdoc e: oh , i see what you mean . and then `` hesitation `` . yeah . ok , and so then , uh , in terms of like words like `` uh `` and `` um `` i just wrote them because i figured there 's a limited number , and i keep them to a uh , limited set because it did n't matter if it was `` mmm `` or `` um `` , { comment } you know , versus `` um `` . so i just always wrote it as u m . phd b: ok . postdoc e: and `` uh - huh `` , you know , `` uhuh . `` i mean , like a s set of like five . but in any case i did n't mark those . phd b: no . phd c: mm - hmm . phd b: `` uh - huh `` is `` u h h u h . `` h u h . `` postdoc e: i 'd be happy with that . that 'd be fine . it 'd be good to have that in the in the conventions , what 's to be used . phd c: huh - uh . grad a: i i did notice that there were some segments that had pauses on the beginning and end . we should probably mark areas that have no speakers as no speaker . then , so question mark colon is fine for that . postdoc e: yeah , that 's a fine idea . that 's a fine idea . grad a: just say silence . undergrad d: well , what 's that mean ? postdoc e: yeah , ok . yeah . undergrad d: you mean re grad a: no one 's talking . undergrad d: ye s oh . silence all around . grad a: yep . undergrad d: yep . phd b: we have to mark those ? postdoc e: so i had phd b: do n't they d ca n't we just leave them unmarked ? postdoc e: i d well , you see , that 's possible too . grad a: well , i wan na leave the marked i do n't want them to be part of another utterance . so you just you need to have the boundary at the start and the end . phd b: ok . sure . postdoc e: mm - hmm . now that 's refinement that , uh , maybe it could be handled by part of the part of the script or something more phd b: uh , yeah , it seems like it seems like the , uh , tran the transcription problem would be very different if we had these automatic speaker detection turn placing things . because suddenly i mean , i do n't know , actually it sounds like there might be a problem putting it into the software if the software only handles two parallel channels . but assuming we can get around that somehow . postdoc e: mm - hmm . well you were saying , i think it can read grad a: it can read and write as many as you want , it 's just that it postdoc e: uh - huh . phd b: but what if you wan na edit it ? right ? i mean , the point is we 're gon na generate this transcript with five five tracks in it , but with no words . someone 's gon na have to go in and type in the words . um , and if there are five five people speaking at once , grad a: right , i it 's i did n't explain it well . if we use the the little the conventions that jane has established , i have a script that will convert from that convention to their saved convention . phd b: oh , yeah . yes . postdoc e: which allows five . grad a: right . postdoc e: and it can be m edited after the fact , grad a: yes . postdoc e: ca n't it also ? but their but their format , if you wanted to in indicate the speakers right there instead of doing it through this indirect route , then i they a c window comes up and it only allows you to enter two speakers . phd b: yeah . right . undergrad d: but you 're saying that by the time you call it back in to from their saved format it opens up a window with window with five speakers ? postdoc e: so . but . grad a: right . undergrad d: oh ! that is sort of f grad a: it 's just user interface . undergrad d: they did n't quite go the whole grad a: so i it 's undergrad d: yeah , they did n't go the whole route , grad a: the the the whole saved form the saved format and the internal format , all that stuff , handles multiple speakers . undergrad d: did they ? they just grad a: it 's just there 's no user interface for specifying multiple any more than two . undergrad d: right . so your your script solves does n't it solve all our problems , postdoc e: and that grad a: yep . undergrad d: cuz we 're always gon na wan na go through this preprocessing grad a: yep . undergrad d: uh , assuming it works . grad a: yep . postdoc e: and that works nicely cuz this so quick to enter . so i would n't wan na do it through the interface anyway adding which worry who the speaker was . grad a: yep . undergrad d: i see . right . good . postdoc e: and then , uh , let 's see what else . oh , yes , i i wanted to have so sometimes a pers i uh in terms of like the continuity of thought for transcriptions , it 's i it is n't just words coming out , it 's like there 's some purpose for an utterance . and sometimes someone will do a backchannel in the middle of it but you wan na show that it 's continued at a later point . so i have i have a convention of putting like a dash arrow just to indicate that this person 's utterance continues . and then when it uh , catches back up again then there 's an arrow dash , and then you have the opposite direction to indicate continuation of ones own utterance versus , um , sometimes we had the situation which is you know , which you which you get in conversations , { comment } of someone continuing someone else 's utterance , phd b: mmm . postdoc e: and in that case i did a tilde arrow versus a arrow tilde , to indicate that it was continuation but it was n't oh , i guess i did equal arrow for the for the own for yourself things phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: cuz it 's the speakers the same . and then tilde arrow if it was a different if a different speaker , uh , con continuation . phd b: mmm . grad a: oh . postdoc e: but just , you know , the arrows showing continuation of a thought . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and then you could track whether it was the same speaker or not by knowing you know , at the end of this unit you 'd know what happened later . and that was like this person continued phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and you 'd be able to look for the continuation . grad a: so phd b: but the only time that becomes ambiguous is if you have two speakers . like , if you if you only have one person , if you only have one thought that 's continuing across a particular time boundary , you just need one arrow at each end , and if it 's picked up by a different speaker , it 's picked up by a different speaker . the time it becomes ambiguous if you have more than one speaker and that and they sort of swap . i guess if you have more than one thread going , then you then you need to know whether they were swapped or not . postdoc e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd c: how often does that happen do you think ? postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: hopefully not very much . postdoc e: yeah , i did n't use it very often . grad a: especially for meetings . i mean , if i if you were just recording someone 's day , it would be impossible . you know , undergrad d: it l ou grad a: if you were trying to do a remembrance agent . but i think for meetings it 's probably alright . phd c: hmm . grad a: but , a lot of these issues , i think that for uh , from my point of view , where i just wan na do speech recognition and information retrieval , it does n't really matter . phd b: sure . grad a: but other people have other interests . phd b: i know . grad a: so . phd b: but it it does feel it does feel like it 's really in there . i you know i did this i did this transcription and i marked that , i marked it with ellipsis because it seemed like there was a difference . it 's something you wanted to indicate that it that i this was the end of the phrase , this was the end of that particular transcript , but it was continued later . grad a: right . phd b: and i picked up with an ellipsis . postdoc e: excellent . yeah . phd b: i did n't have the equal , not equal thing . postdoc e: yeah . well that 's you know , i mean i that 's why i did n't { comment } i did n't do it n i mean , that 's why i thought about it , and and re - ev phd b: yeah , yeah . postdoc e: and it did n't do i did n't do it in ten times the the time . grad a: well , so anyway , are we interested then in writing tools to try to generate any of this stuff automatically ? postdoc e: yeah . grad a: is that something you want to do , dan ? phd b: no . grad a: no . phd b: but it 's something @ @ that i feel we definitely ought to do . postdoc e: i also wanted to ask you if you have a time estimate on the part that you transcribed . do you have a sense of how long phd b: yeah , it took me half an hour to transcribe a minute , but i did n't have any i did n't even have a postdoc e: ok . phd b: i was trying to get transcriber to run but i could n't . so i was doing it by typ typing into a text file and trying to fit it was horrible . postdoc e: ok . ok . undergrad d: so thirty to one 's what you got ? phd b: mm - hmm . undergrad d: so that 's a new upper limit ? phd b: yeah . postdoc e: well , i mean , that 's that 's because you did n't have the segmentation help and all the other grad a: but i think for a first try that 's about right . phd b: is it phd c: so so if we hired a who if we hired a whole bunch of dan 's undergrad d: that 's right . postdoc e: yeah . phd b: it was actually it was quite it was a t undergrad d: a grad a: if we hire an infinite number of dan 's phd b: it w undergrad d: it 'd b a a postdoc e: and there 's always a warm up thing of grad a: are we gon na run out of disk space by the way ? phd b: yeah . grad a: ok , phd b: no . grad a: good . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: d does n't it beep in the other room when you 're out of disk space ? phd c: so is there grad a: no . phd c: maybe we should s consider also , um , starting to build up a web site around all of these things . phd b: web site ! that 's great ! phd c: i know . grad a: dan 's sort of already started . phd b: we could have like business - to - business e - commerce as well ! phd c: that 's right . no , but i 'm it would be interesting it would be interesting to see grad a: can we sell banner ads ? undergrad d: get get paid for click - throughs ? grad a: what a good idea , phd b: yeah . grad a: that 's how we could pay for the transcription . phd c: i want to introduce i i want to introduce the word `` snot - head `` into the conversation at this point . phd b: we can have undergrad d: you wan na word that wo n't be recognized ? phd c: you see , cuz uh , cuz exactly . um . postdoc e: oh , i do n't think so . phd c: no . grad a: hey , what about me ? phd c: the r w what ok . postdoc e: you 're the one who raised the issue . phd c: no . alright , see here 's here 's here 's my thought behind it which is that , uh , the the stuff that you 've been describing , jane , i gu one has to , of course indicate , { comment } um , i is very interesting , postdoc e: alright . phd c: and i i 'd like to be able to to pore through , you know , the the types of tr conventions that you 've come up with and stuff like that . phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . phd c: so i would like to see that kind of stuff on the web . postdoc e: ok , now , w the alternative to a web site would be to put it in doctor speech . phd b: yes . yes . postdoc e: cuz cuz what i have is a soft link to my transcription that i have on my account phd c: either 's fine . phd b: we c postdoc e: but it does n't matter . grad a: we can do it all . phd b: we can do it all ! we can write postdoc e: ok . phd b: oh . postdoc e: web site 's nice . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: then you have to t you have to do an ht access . undergrad d: web site 's what ? phd b: we could actually maybe we could use the tcl plug - in . oh , man . postdoc e: ooo ! he 's committed himself to something . phd c: ow . see he said the word tcl and and that 's undergrad d: but he does such a good job of it . he should be allowed to to , you know , w do it . postdoc e: i know , i know . phd b: i know , but that but , i right . but i should be allowed to but undergrad d: if you just did a crappy job , no nobody would want you to do it . phd b: i sh i should n't be allowed to by m by my own by my according to my own priorities . alright . let 's look at it anyway . so definitely we should we should have some kind of access to the data . grad a: and we have we have quite a disparate number of web and other sorts of documents on this project sort of spread around . phd c: yeah . grad a: i have several and dan has a few , phd b: yes . grad a: and phd c: right , so we can add in links and stuff like that to other things . postdoc e: ah ! grad a: yep . postdoc e: nice . phd b: well , yeah . phd c: the phd b: well so then th grad a: try try to s consolidate . i mean , who wants to do that though ? phd b: the other side is , yeah . phd c: uh , right . grad a: no one wants to do that . so . postdoc e: yeah . phd b: right , that 's the problem . phd c: well , we could put we could put sort of a disorganized sort of group gestalt undergrad d: why ? what what 's what 's the issue ? phd b: no one owns the project . undergrad d: no one what ? phd b: no one owns the project . grad a: yeah , i own the project but i do n't wan na do it . phd b: no one wants to own the project . phd c: right . undergrad d: w well do but grad a: it 's mine ! all mine ! phd b: well then you have to do the web site . undergrad d: but grad a: `` wah - hah - hah - hah - hah - hah . `` phd b: you know , it 's like , it 's that simple . undergrad d: b but but but what are you what are you talking about for web site hacking ? phd b: no undergrad d: you 're talking about writing html , right ? grad a: yeah , i i 'm talking about putting together all the data in a form that that is legible , and pleasant to read , and up to date , and et cetera , et cetera , et cetera . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: but , is it against the law to actually use a tool to help your job go easier ? grad a: absolutely . it 's it 's absolutely against the law to use a tool . i have n't found any tools that i like . undergrad d: you y grad a: it 's just as easy to use to edit the raw html as anything else . undergrad d: no kidding ? phd b: that 's obviously not true , grad a: it 's obviously not true . phd b: but you have undergrad d: no , it it it 's obviously true that he has n't found any he likes . phd b: right . that 's true . undergrad d: the question is what is what 's he looked at . postdoc e: which one do you use jim ? undergrad d: i use something called trellix . postdoc e: oh , that 's right . i remember . yeah . undergrad d: and it postdoc e: which produces also site maps . grad a: now , i guess if i were if i were doing more powerful excuse me more complex web sites i might want to . undergrad d: it 's - it it 's very powerful . grad a: but most of the web sites i do are n't that complex . postdoc e: well , would this be to document it also for outside people or mainly for in house use ? grad a: but . i think both . phd c: no , i think in grad a: mostly in house . phd b: that 's right . phd c: i think mostly internal . undergrad d: well , yeah , postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: but what does internal mean ? phd b: no , both . undergrad d: i mean , you 're leaving . people at uw wan na look at it . i mean , it 's it 's internal { comment } until phd c: right . internal to the project . undergrad d: i see . postdoc e: we could do an ht access which would accommodate those things . phd b: i i i i grad a: ok , well , send me links and i wi send me pointers , rather , and i 'll put it together . phd b: i 'm not o postdoc e: wonderful . phd b: ok . i 'm not sure how how important that distinction is . i do n't think we should say , `` oh , it 's internal therefore we do n't have to make it very good `` . i mean , you can say `` oh oh , it 's internal phd c: no . no . phd b: therefore we can put data in it that we do n't we do n't have to worry about releasing `` . but i think the point is to try and be coherent and make it a nice presentation . undergrad d: right . i agree . postdoc e: yeah , it is true , that is it benefits to undergrad d: cuz you 're gon na have to wor do the work sooner or later . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: that 's right . i mean , it 's the early on . undergrad d: even if it 's just writing things up . grad a: yep . undergrad d: you know ? postdoc e: it 's a great idea . grad a: ok , um , let 's move on to electronics . phd b: ah . great . undergrad d: d we we out of tape out of disk ? phd b: no , we 're doing we 're doing great . undergrad d: i i was looking for the actual box i plan to use , uh , but i c all i could i could n't find it at the local store . but this is the the technology . it 's actually a little bit thinner than this . and it 's two by two , by one , and it would fit right under the right under th the the the the lip , grad a: yeah , does everyone know about the lip on the table ? it 's great . undergrad d: yeah . there 's a lip in these tables . postdoc e: nice . undergrad d: and , it oc i p especially brought the bottom along to try and generate some frequencies that you may not already have recorded . grad a: clink ! clink ! undergrad d: let 's see see what it does to the but this was the uh just just to review , and i also brought this { comment } along rather than the projector so we can put these on the table , and sort of w push them around . grad a: and and crinkle them and phd b: what ? postdoc e: and th `` that `` being a diagram . phd b: what ? undergrad d: that that 's the six tables that we 're looking at . these six tables here , with with little boxes sort of , uh , in the middle here . phd b: i see . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: which es would i mean , the the boxes are pretty much out of the way anyway . i 'll - i 'll show you the the cro this is the table cross section . i do n't know if people realize what they 're looking at . phd b: you trying to screw up the m the microphones ? grad a: yes . he is . absolutely . phd b: i mean th undergrad d: well why not ? i mean , cuz this is what 's gon na happen . you got plenty of data . i wo n't come to your next meeting . and and and you so this is the box 's grad a: get your paper off my pda ! phd b: yeah . postdoc e: yeah , let let the record show that this is exhibit two b . undergrad d: that 's right . `` or not to be `` . yeah , yeah . grad a: yeah . undergrad d: uh , the box , uh there 's a half inch lip here . the box is an inch thick so it hangs down a half an inch . and so the the two head set jacks would be in the front and then the little led to indicate that that box is live . the the important issue about the led is the fact that we 're talking about eight of these total , which would be sixteen channels . and , uh , even though we have sixteen channels back at the capture , they 're not all gon na be used for this . phd b: hmm . undergrad d: so there 'd be a subset of them used for obviously j just use the ones at this end for for this many . so excuse me . you 'd like a a way to tell whether your box is live , so the led would n't be on . phd b: right . all the lights . undergrad d: so if you 're plugged in it does n't work and the led is off that 's that 's a tip off . and then the , uh would wire the all of the cables in a in a bundle come through here and o obviously collect these cables at the same time . postdoc e: that 's good . undergrad d: uh , so this this notion of putting down the p z ms and taking them away would somehow have to be turned into leaving them on the table grad a: right . well , we wan na do that definitely . undergrad d: or or right . grad a: so . undergrad d: right . and so the you we just epoxy them down or something . big screw into the table . phd b: velcro . undergrad d: uh , and even though there 's eight cables they 're not really very big around so my model is to get a a a p piece of grad a: sleeve . undergrad d: yeah , that that stuff that people put with the little you slip the wires into that 's sort of shaped like that cross section . grad a: oh . ok , not just sleeve them all ? undergrad d: yeah . i 'm i 'm r a i 'm going up and then i 'm going down . grad a: and leave them loose ? phd b: no . postdoc e: that looks like a semi - circle . phd b: yeah . it 's like a it 's a sleeping policeman . grad a: whoo ! phd b: speed bump ! postdoc e: sleeping pol phd b: speed bump . grad a: speed a `` sleeping policeman `` ! undergrad d: yeah , it 's like a speed bum an postdoc e: speed bump . that 's good . there we go s grad a: cool . undergrad d: and they 're ac they 're actually ext extruded from plastic . phd c: what is undergrad d: they sorta look like this . grad a: oh . phd c: what does that mean ? phd b: that 's the s that 's british for speed bump , phd c: is it a speed bump ? undergrad d: so that the wires go through here . phd b: yeah . phd c: wow . postdoc e: oh , is that right ? phd b: yeah . postdoc e: i never heard that . grad a: that 's really cruel . undergrad d: so . postdoc e: ah ! grad a: ok , so that undergrad d: s so it would c basically go on the diagonal here . phd c: it could go either way . grad a: so why do we have sixteen channels instead of like some fewer number ? phd b: yeah . phd c: i guess . undergrad d: uh , because the phd b: how else are you gon na distribute them around the tables ? undergrad d: because they 're there . grad a: well , ok , let me rephrase that . why two each ? phd b: oh , because then you do n't have to just have one each . so that if t if you have two people sitting next to each other they can actually go into the same box . undergrad d: yeah . grad a: ok . undergrad d: and to see , thi this is really the way people sit on this table . th grad a: ok . postdoc e: mm - hmm . undergrad d: uh . dot , dot , dot . postdoc e: which means two at each station . undergrad d: well that that 's the way people sit . that 's how many chairs are in the room . postdoc e: yeah . grad a: alright . postdoc e: yeah , i 'm just saying that for the recording . undergrad d: yeah . grad a: right . undergrad d: right . grad a: ok . undergrad d: and certainly you could do a thing where all sixteen were plugged in . grad a: but then none of these . undergrad d: uh if if you ha if you had nothing else . grad a: right . n none of these and no p z ms then . undergrad d: yeah . right . right . i agree . phd b: only if you had well it depends on this box , right ? undergrad d: oh , true enough . and actually , at the m my plan is to only bring eight wires out of this box . phd b: exactly . grad a: oh , i did n't understand undergrad d: this this box thi - thi thi this box is a one off deal . postdoc e: that being the wiring box . grad a: oh , i see , i see . undergrad d: uh . and , uh , it 's function is to s to , uh , essentially a wire converter to go from these little blue wires to these black wires , plus supply power to the microphones cuz the the he the , uh , cheap head mounteds all require low voltage . grad a: so so you 'd imagine some sort of in some sort of patch panel on top to figure out what the mapping was between each d of these two and each of those one or what ? phd b: hmm ! undergrad d: well i w i i the simplest thing i could imagine , i which is really , really simple is to quite literally that these things plug in . and there 's a there 's a plug on the end of each of these these , uh , ei eight cables . postdoc e: what phd b: yeah . postdoc e: ok . each of the blue wires ? phd b: but there are only four . undergrad d: an - and there 's only there 's only four slots that are you know , in in the first version or the version we 're planning to to build . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . grad a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: so that that was the whole issue with the led , that you plug it in , the led comes on , and and and you 're live . grad a: oh , then it comes on . i see , i see . ok , good . undergrad d: now the the the subtle issue here is that tha i i have n't really figured out a solution for this . so , we it 'll have to be convention . what happens if somebody unplugs this because they plug in more of something else ? grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: well the there 's no clever way to let the up stream guys know that you 're really not being powered . so th there will be a certain amount of looking at cables has to be done if people , uh , rewire things . grad a: right . phd b: yeah , i mean , we i had that last time . undergrad d: but . phd b: but uh there are actually that you know , there 's an extra there 's a mix out on the radio receiver ? undergrad d: mm - hmm . phd b: so there are actually six xlr outs on the back of the radio receiver and only five cables going in , i had the wrong five , so i ended up not recording one of the channels and recording the mix . undergrad d: how interesting . d did you do any recognition on the mix mix out ? postdoc e: hmm . phd b: no . undergrad d: wonder whether it works any phd b: but i subtracted the four that i did have from the mix and got a pretty good approximation of the @ @ . undergrad d: got the fifth ? grad a: you g undergrad d: cool . postdoc e: oh , how great . grad a: and did it work ? phd b: yeah . grad a: did it sound good ? phd b: it 's not bad . undergrad d: is it is phd b: it 's not bad , grad a: wow . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: ai n't science wonderful ? postdoc e: that 's amazing . phd b: yeah . grad a: so what 's the schedule on these things ? undergrad d: so phd b: but , you always postdoc e: wow . undergrad d: uh , well i was wrestling with th with literally the w number of connectors in the cable and the the , uh , powering system . and i i was gon na do this very clever phantom power and i decided a couple days ago not to do it . phd b: hmm ! undergrad d: so i 'm ready to build it . which is to say , uh , the neighborhood of a week to get the circuit board done . grad a: mm - hmm . so i think the other thing i 'd like to do is , do something about the set up phd b: see grad a: so that it 's a little more presentable and organized . undergrad d: i agree . grad a: and i 'm i 'm just not sure what that is . i mean , some sort of cabinet . undergrad d: well i can build a cabinet . the the difficulty for this kind of project is the intellectual capital to design the cabinet . grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: in other words , to figure out ex exactly what the right thing is . that cabinet can can go away . we can use that for for uh kindling or something . but if you can imagine what the right form factor is . dan - dan and i have sort of gone around on this , and we were thinking about something that opened up in the top to allow access to the mixer for example . grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: but there 's these things sticking out of the mixer which are kind of a pain , so you end up with this thing that if if you stuck the mixer up here and the top opened , it 'd be it 'd be fine . you would n't necessarily well , you s understand what i 'm grad a: yeah , i understand . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: the the you can you can start start s sketching it out , grad a: so . undergrad d: and i can certainly build it out of oak no problem , would it you know , arb you know , arbitrarily amount of grad a: i need a desk at home too , alright ? is that gon na be a better solution than just going out and buy one ? undergrad d: well , the as we found out with the the thing that , uh , jeff bought a long time ago to hold our stereo system the stuff you buy is total crap . and i mean this is something you buy . grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: and and grad a: and it 's total crap . undergrad d: it 's total crap . well , it 's useless for this function . works fine for holding a kleenex , grad a: right , kleenex and telephones . undergrad d: but it right . grad a: um , so yeah , i g i guess it 's just a question , is that something you wan na spend your time on ? undergrad d: oh , i i 'm paid for . grad a: ok , great . undergrad d: i have no problem . no , but w certainly one of the issues is is the , uh is security . grad a: hmm ? mm - hmm . undergrad d: i mean , we 've been been been lax and lucky . grad a: lax . phd b: yeah . yep . undergrad d: really lucky with these things . but they 're not ours , so phd b: yeah . undergrad d: the , uh the flat panels . phd b: oh , yeah ! grad a: i 'm telling you , i 'm just gon na cart one of them away if they stay there much longer . phd b: well w yeah , exactly . undergrad d: uh , let the record show at uh at f four thirty - five adam janin says postdoc e: wow . tempting . phd b: we 'll know we 'll know to come after . postdoc e: tempting . yeah . grad a: so , um , j uh , then the other question is do we wan na try to do a user interface that 's available out here ? phd b: sorry ? undergrad d: slipped almost slipped it by dan . postdoc e: use - user interface grad a: a user interface . i mean , do we wan na try to get a monitor ? or just something . phd b: oh ! sure . postdoc e: oh . phd b: well of course we do . grad a: and how do we want to do that ? postdoc e: you mean like see see meter readings , from while sitting here . grad a: j just so we see something . postdoc e: wow . undergrad d: how about use the thing that um aciri 's doing . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: which is to say just laptop with a wireless . phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . sure . postdoc e: oh . phd b: which we 'll borrow from them , when we need it . undergrad d: what 's wrong with yours ? if we bought you a a phd b: oh , a applecard . sure . right . yeah , you could use my machine . phd c: well undergrad d: what ? grad a: i have an iram machine i 've borrowed and we can use it . phd b: i or the undergrad d: n no , i 'm i 'm i 'm serious . does does the wireless thing work on your grad a: wait , is n't that an ethernet connection or is that a phone ? phd b: uh , that 's an ethernet connection . grad a: well phd b: it 's going next door . undergrad d: yeah no no i 'm a i i i ai n't joking here . grad a: we jus undergrad d: i 'm serious , that that it it phd b: yeah . no , no , absolutely , that 's the right way to do it . t to have it uh , just undergrad d: it 's very convenient especially if dan happens to be sitting at that end of the table to not have to run down here and and look in the thing every so often , phd b: yeah . and given given that we 've got a wireless that we 've got a we got the field . undergrad d: but just have the it 's right there . phd b: right . undergrad d: right ? the antenna 's right there , grad a: right . phd b: yeah . yeah . undergrad d: right outside the phd b: i do n't know . undergrad d: y i mean , we need obviously need to clear this with aciri but , uh , how tough can that be ? there it you 'd all you need 's web access , is n't it ? phd b: w we do n't need x access undergrad d: in in theory . phd b: but i mean that 's fine . that 's that 's what it does , undergrad d: ok , phd b: yeah . undergrad d: great , great . grad a: um , phd b: so grad a: right , so it 's just a question of getting a laptop and a wireless modem . phd b: with a with a with a w undergrad d: no , and he he had , reque @ @ my my proposal is you have a laptop . phd b: no . yeah . i do ! undergrad d: you do n't ? phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah . undergrad d: if if we bought you the thing would you mind using it with i the the phd b: no , i would love to but i 'm not sure if my laptop is compatible with the wave lan thing they 're using . undergrad d: really ? grad a: to mac . phd b: well apple has their own thing , right ? phd c: he 's undergrad d: your new one ? grad a: airport . undergrad d: i 'm sorry ? phd b: apple has their own thing . and undergrad d: i thought it just came through a serial p or an ethernet port . phd b: yeah , i think what i think you i think it just plug plugs in a pc card , so you could probably make it run with that , but . grad a: the question is , is there an apple driver ? undergrad d: i e phd b: yeah , i 'm sure . i imagine there is . but uh anyway there are there are abs there are a bunch of machines at icsi that have those cards undergrad d: but the two t phd b: and so i think if w if it does n't we should be able to find a machine that does that . i i mean i know that does n't do n't do n't the important people have those little blue vaios that undergrad d: well , uh , b that to me that 's a whole nother . that 's a whole nother issue . postdoc e: hmm . hmm . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: the the idea of con convincing them that we should use their network i is fairly straight forward . phd b: yeah . yeah . undergrad d: the idea of being able to walk into their office and say , `` oh , can i borrow your machine for a while `` , is is is a non - starter . phd b: yeah . i see . undergrad d: that i i do n't think that 's gon na work . so , i mean , either either we figure out how to use a machine somebody already in the group already owns , a a and the idea is that if it 's it perk , you know , it 's an advantage not not a disadvan { comment } or else we we literally buy a machine e exactly for that purpose . phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah . absolutely . yeah . undergrad d: certainly it solves a lot of the problems with leaving a monitor out here all the time . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: i i i i 'm i 'm not a big fan of doing things to the room that make the room less attractive for other people , grad a: right . undergrad d: right ? which is part of the reason for getting all this stuff out of the way grad a: yeah . undergrad d: and and , so a monitor sitting here all the time you know people are gon na walk up to it and go , `` how come i ca n't get , you know , pong on this `` or , whatev grad a: mm - hmm . right . i 've i 've borrowed the iram vaio sony thingy , phd c: well grad a: and i do n't think they 're ever gon na want it back . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: right . phd b: you 're kidding ! undergrad d: well , the next conference they will . grad a: so . sure . undergrad d: yeah . grad a: but that does mean so we can use that as well . undergrad d: well , uh , the certainly , u you should give it a shot first see whether you you can get compatible stuff . phd b: mm - hmm . undergrad d: uh , ask them what it costs . ask them if they have an extra one . who knows , they might have an extra hardware s phd b: i 'd trade them a flat panel display for it . yeah . phd c: what is the , um , projector supposed to be hooked up to ? undergrad d: good . uh , the , uh tsk . it 's gon na be hooked up to all sorts of junk . there 's gon na be actually a a plug at the front that 'll connect to people 's laptops so you can walk in and plug it in . and it 's gon na be con connected to the machine at the back . so we certainly could use that as as a constant reminder of what the vu meters are doing . phd b: huge vu meters . undergrad d: so people sitting here { comment } are going `` testing , one , two , three `` ! phd c: but i mean , that 's another that 's another possibility that , you know , solves undergrad d: it a phd b: yeah . undergrad d: yeah . phd b: that 's an end undergrad d: but but but i think the idea of having a control panel it 's that 's there in front of you is really cool . phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: i think and uh , having having it on wireless is is the neatest way neatest way to do it . undergrad d: r grad a: i had undergrad d: as long as you d as l as long as you 're not tempted to sit there and f keep fiddling with the volume controls going , `` can you talk a bit louder ? `` phd b: yeah . grad a: i had actually earlier asked if i could borrow one of the cards to do wireless stuff phd b: yeah . grad a: and they said , `` sure , whenever you want `` . so i think it wo n't be a problem . phd b: oh , cool . ok . undergrad d: and and it 's a a pcmcia card , right ? grad a: yep . undergrad d: pc card , grad a: pc card . undergrad d: so you can have a slot , phd b: yeah , yeah . undergrad d: right ? in your new machine ? phd c: it 's it really come down to the driver . undergrad d: is it with s phd b: yeah . phd c: i mean grad a: right , i mean , and if and if his does n't work , as i said , we can use the pc . undergrad d: right , i it 'll it 'll work it 'll work the first time . i i trust steve jobs . grad a: good . phd b: um , grad a: so phd b: well , that sounds like a d good solution one way or the other . grad a: so jim is gon na be doing wiring and you 're gon na give some thought to cabinets ? undergrad d: uh , y yeah . grad a: great . undergrad d: we we need to figure out what we want . uh phd b: we 'd i think undergrad d: hey , what are those green lights doing ? grad a: they 're flashing ! phd b: uh - oh ! uh - oh ! does that it means it means it 's gon na explode . no . undergrad d: cut the red wire , the red wire ! phd b: um grad a: when people talk , it they go on and off . phd b: this so again , washington wants to equip a system . our system , we spent ten thousand dollars on equipment not including the pc . however , seven and a half thousand of that was the wireless mikes . uh , undergrad d: mm - hmm . phd b: using using these undergrad d: and it and the f the five thousand for the wires , so if i 'm gon na do no . phd b: yeah , undergrad d: it 's a joke . phd b: that 's true undergrad d: i have to do phd b: but we have n't spent that , right ? but once we once we 've done the intellectual part of these , uh , we can just knock them out , right ? grad a: cheap . phd b: we can start we you can make a hundred of them or something . undergrad d: oh , of the of the boards ? yeah , yeah , sure , right . phd b: and then we could washington could have a system that did n't have any wireless but would had what 's based on these undergrad d: mm - hmm . phd b: and it would cost grad a: a pc and a peanuts . undergrad d: peanuts . phd b: pc and two thousand dollars for the a - to - d stuff . grad a: yeah . phd b: and that 's about cuz you would n't even need the mixer if you did n't have the oh th the p z undergrad d: right . phd b: p z ms cost a lot . but anyway you 'd save , on the seven seven or eight thousand for the for the wireless system . so actually that might be attractive . undergrad d: right . grad a: good . phd b: ok , i can move my thumb now . postdoc e: that 's a great idea . undergrad d: what ? postdoc e: it 's nice it 's nice to be thinking toward that . undergrad d: oh , i thought like if we talked softer the disk lasts longer . grad a: well , actually shorten phd b: yeah . grad a: there 's a speech compression program that works great on things like this , cuz if the dynamic range is low it encodes it with fewer bits . and so most of the time no one 's talking so it shortens it dramatically . but if you talk quieter , the dynamic range is lower and it will compress better . so . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: oh . hmm . undergrad d: it also helps if you talk in a monotone . grad a: probably . undergrad d: constant volume all the time . postdoc e: oh , interesting . and shorter words . grad a: shorter words . phd c: now , shorter words would n't would induce more dynamics , right ? you want to have phd b: yeah , but if the words are more predictable . grad a: how about if you just go `` uh `` ? phd c: huh . undergrad d: uh . postdoc e: that 's a long word ! grad a: how do you spell that ? postdoc e: i do n't know . grad a: ok , can you do one more round of digits ? are we done talking ? undergrad d: well it 's a choice if we get a choice , let 's keep talking . grad a: do we have more to talk about ? undergrad d: sure . no , i 'm done . phd c: i 'm done . grad a: are you done ? postdoc e: i 'm done , grad a: i 'm done . postdoc e: yeah . phd c: dan is n't but he 's not gon na say anything . undergrad d: but you you you there 's a problem a structural problem with this though . you really need an incentive at the end if you 're gon na do digits again . like , you know , candy bars or something , grad a: i 'll i 'll remember to bring m and m 's next time . undergrad d: or or or or or a little , uh you know , toothbrushes like they give you at the d dentist . phd b: mmm ! postdoc e: or both . undergrad d: or both . phd b: sorry . undergrad d: eric , you and i win . we did n't make any mistakes . grad a: it 's harder at the end than at the beginning . postdoc e: we do n't know that for sure , do we ? grad a: i should have mentioned that s uh , to pause between lines but undergrad d: no , i know . i 'm just giving you a hard time . grad a: it 's it 's only a hard time for the transcriber not for the speech recognizer . phd b: tha - tha postdoc e: but i also think you said channel four grad a: me . postdoc e: and i think you meant microphone four . and i think that 's a mistake . undergrad d: very good . so eric , you win . but the other thing is that there 's a there 's a colon for transcripts . and there should n't be a colon . because see , everything else is stuff you fill in . phd b: yeah , that 's been filled in for you . undergrad d: right ? automatically . phd b: but they 're in order ! undergrad d: but real phd b: they start , six , seven , eight , nine , zero , one , two , three , four , five , six , eight , nine . undergrad d: where 'd they come from ? phd b: and they 're in order because they 're sorted lexically by the file names , which are have the numbers in digits . postdoc e: oh . phd b: and so they 're actually this is like all the all utterances that were generated by speaker mpj or something . postdoc e: oh . phd b: and then within mpj they 're sorted by what he actually said . grad a: ugh ! i did n't know that . i should have randomized it . postdoc e: wow . phd b: it does n't matter ! it 's like cuz you said `` six , seven , eight `` . undergrad d: well , we think it does n't matter . phd b: we think it does n't matter . if i if not i undergrad d: but the real question i have is that , why bother with these ? postdoc e: oh , interesting . undergrad d: why do n't you just ask people to repeat numbers they already know ? like phone numbers , you know , social security numbers . phd b: cuz we have these writt written down , right ? grad a: because right . phd b: that 's why grad a: if we have it , uh undergrad d: i know . postdoc e: social security numbers . undergrad d: i kn grad a: we do n't have to transcribe . phd b: you can you can generate postdoc e: bank account numbers . undergrad d: credit card numbers , grad a: we do n't have to tran undergrad d: yeah . grad a: yeah , please . phd b: yeah . that 's a great idea . postdoc e: passport numbers . undergrad d: yeah , so you just say say your credit card numbers , say your phone numbers , say your mother 's maiden name . grad a: bet we could do it . undergrad d: you know pe postdoc e: password to your account . undergrad d: people off the street . postdoc e: go on . undergrad d: this grad a: actually , this i got this directly from another training set , from aurora . phd b: alright . grad a: so . we can compare directly . phd b: looks good . looks like there were no errors . postdoc e: i was i the reason i made my mistake was grad a: what ? postdoc e: wa - was this ? phd b: there were no there were no direct driver errors , by the look of it , which is good . grad a: great . postdoc e: good news . grad a: ok , the mike 's off . phd b: so i 'm gon na stop it . yeah , ok . postdoc e: ok . grad a: thank you all . undergrad d: mony on the mike . phd b: uh - oh .

santa barbara had released a corpus recently that had many styles of speech . the project used dat recorders and had a lot of far field recordings . the recording in general were very clean .

summarize the discussion about electronics </s> grad a: ok , this is one channel . can you uh , say your name and talk into your mike one at a time ? phd c: this is eric on channel three , i believe . grad a: ok . uh , i do n't think it 's on there , jane . undergrad d: tasting one two three , tasting . postdoc e: ok , this is jane on channel five . grad a: uh , i still do n't see you jane . postdoc e: oh , darn , what am i doing wrong ? undergrad d: can you see me on channel four ? really ? grad a: yeah , i s undergrad d: my lucky day . postdoc e: uh , screen no , it is , oh , maybe it just warmed up ? grad a: no . postdoc e: oh , darn , can you ca n't see channel five yet ? grad a: uh , well , the mike is n't close enough to your mouth , so . postdoc e: oh , this would be k ok , is that better ? grad a: s uh , try speaking loudly , undergrad d: i like the high quality labelling . grad a: so , postdoc e: hello , grad a: ok , good . undergrad d: david , can we borrow your labelling machine to improve the quality of the labelling a little bit here ? postdoc e: hello . alright . grad a: thank you . phd b: one t undergrad d: how how many are there , one to five ? phd b: one five , yeah . undergrad d: yeah , please . postdoc e: would you like to join the meeting ? grad a: well , we do n't wan na renumber them , postdoc e: i bet grad a: cuz we 've already have like , forms filled out with the numbers on them . so , let 's keep the same numbers on them . phd b: yeah , ok , that 's a good idea . grad a: ok , dan , are you on ? phd b: i 'm on i 'm on two and i should be on . grad a: good . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: want to join the meeting , dave ? do we do do we have a spare , uh grad a: and i 'm getting lots of responses on different ones , so i assume the various and assorted p z ms are on . undergrad d: we ' r we 're we ' r this is this this is a meeting meeting . postdoc e: this is abou we 're we 're mainly being taped but we 're gon na talk about , uh , transcription for the m future meeting meetings . grad a: stuff . yeah , this is not something you need to attend . so . postdoc e: yeah . e ok . phd c: you 're always having one of those days , dave . postdoc e: y you 'd be welcome . grad a: besides , i do n't want anyone who has a weird accent . postdoc e: you 'd be welcome . grad a: right , dan ? undergrad d: so , i do n't understand if it 's neck mounted you do n't get very good performance . phd c: it 's not neck mounted . it 's supposed to be h head mounted . undergrad d: yeah . it it should be head mounted . right ? grad a: well , then put it on your head . phd b: i do n't know . phd c: right . grad a: what are you doing ? undergrad d: cuz when you do this , you can rouww - rouww . postdoc e: why did n't i you were saying that but i could hear you really well on the on the transcription on the , uh , tape . grad a: well , i m i would prefer that people wore it on their head phd b: i i do n't know . phd c: i grad a: but they were complaining about it . because it 's not it does n't go over the ears . undergrad d: why ? postdoc e: it 's badly designed . grad a: it 's very badly designed so it 's phd b: it 's very badly designed ? undergrad d: what do you mean it does n't go over the ears ? phd b: why ? it 's not s it 's not supposed to cover up your ears . grad a: yeah but , there 's nowhere to put the pad so it 's comfortable . phd b: i mean , it 's only badly postdoc e: so that 's what you 're d he 's got it on his temples so it cuts off his circulation . phd b: oh , that 's strange . phd c: yeah , that 's that 's what i have . grad a: and it feels so good that way . phd c: it feels so good when i stop . grad a: so i i again would like to do some digits . undergrad d: somebody wan na postdoc e: try it . grad a: um . undergrad d: somebody wan na close the door ? grad a: sure . phd b: ok . postdoc e: we could do it with noise . grad a: so let me phd c: you 're always doing digits . grad a: well , you know , i 'm just that sort of digit - y g sorta guy . ok . so this is adam . postdoc e: uh , this is the same one i had before . grad a: i doubt it . phd b: it 's still the same words . grad a: i think we 're session four by the way . or m it might be five . undergrad d: psss ! oh , that 's good . postdoc e: no grad a: i did n't bring my previous thing . phd b: we did n't postdoc e: now , just to be sure , the numbers on the back , this is the channel ? phd b: that 's the microphone number . postdoc e: that 's the microphone number . grad a: yeah , d leave the channel blank . postdoc e: uh - oh . ok , good . undergrad d: but number has to be ? so we have to look up the number . postdoc e: five grad a: right . undergrad d: ok , good . postdoc e: good . ok . well , this is jane , on mike number five . um . i just start ? do i need to say anything more ? grad a: uh , transcript number . phd b: transcript number phd c: ok , this is eric on microphone number three , undergrad d: this is beck on mike four . grad a: thanks . should i turn off the vu meter dan ? do you think that makes any difference ? phd b: oh , god . no , let me do it . grad a: why ? are you gon na do something other than hit `` quit `` ? phd b: no , but i 'm gon na look at the uh , logs as well . grad a: oh . should have done it before . postdoc e: uh , you said turn off the what ? grad a: the vu meter which tells you what the levels on the various mikes are and there was one hypothesis that perhaps that the act of recording the vu meter was one of the things that contributed to the errors . postdoc e: oh . oh , i see . undergrad d: yeah , but eric , uh , you did n't think that was a reasonable hypothesis , right ? postdoc e: i see . grad a: that was me , undergrad d: oh , i 'm sorry y grad a: i thought that was undergrad d: that was malarkey . grad a: well , the only reason that could be is if the driver has a bug . right ? because the machine just is n't very heavily loaded . undergrad d: no chance of that . grad a: no chance of that . just because it 's beta . look ok ? phd b: yeah , there there there was there was a there was a bug . there was a glitch last time we ran . undergrad d: are - are yo are you recording where the table mikes are by the way ? phd b: no . undergrad d: do you know which channels grad a: yeah , we usually do that . phd b: no , we do n't . grad a: yeah . phd b: but we we ought to st we ought to standardize . undergrad d: why not ? phd b: i think , uh , i s i spoke to somebody , morgan , { comment } about that . i think i think we should put mar well , no , w we can do that . undergrad d: why do n't you just do this ? grad a: i mean , that 's what we 've done before . phd b: i know what they they 're they 're four , three , two , one . in order now . undergrad d: four . phd b: three , two , and one . undergrad d: three . phd b: but i think i think we should put them in standard positions . i think we should make little marks on the table top . grad a: which means we need to move this thing , and sorta decide how we 're actually going to do things . phd b: so that we can put them postdoc e: oh , ok . phd b: i guess that 's the point . grad a: so . phd b: it 'll be a lot easier if we have a if we have them permanently in place or something like that . grad a: right . postdoc e: i do wish there were big booms coming down from the ceiling . phd b: you do ? postdoc e: yeah . phd c: would it make you feel more important ? grad a: mmm . postdoc e: yeah , yeah , yeah . phd c: i see . undergrad d: wait till the projector gets installed . postdoc e: you know . grad a: that 'll work . postdoc e: oh , that 'll be good . grad a: that 'll work . phd b: oh , gosh . undergrad d: cuz it 's gon na hang down , make noise . postdoc e: ok . phd b: when 's it gon na be installed ? postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: well , it depends on phd b: i see . undergrad d: is this b is this being recorded ? grad a: that 's right . undergrad d: uh , i think lila actually is almost getting r pretty close to even getting ready to put out the purchase order . phd b: ok . cool . undergrad d: i handed it off to her about a month ago . phd b: i see . grad a: ok , so , topic of this meeting is i wan na talk a little bit about transcription . um , i 've looked a little bit into commercial transcription services and jane has been working on doing transcription . uh , and so we wan wan na decide what we 're gon na do with that and then get an update on the electronics , and then , uh , maybe also talk a little bit about some infrastructure and tools , and so on . um , you know , eventually we 're probably gon na wan na distribute this thing and we should decide how we 're gon na how we 're gon na handle some of these factors . so . phd b: distribute what ? grad a: hmm ? phd b: the data ? grad a: right . right . i mean , so we 're we 're collecting a corpus and i think it 's gon na be generally useful . i mean , it seems like it 's not a corpus which is uh , has been done before . and so i think people will be interested in having having it , phd b: oh . grad a: and so we will undergrad d: u using , like , audio d v ds or something like that ? grad a: excuse me ? phd b: yes . undergrad d: audio d v grad a: well , or something . yeah , audio d v c ds , undergrad d: or t grad a: you know . undergrad d: yeah . tapes . grad a: and and so how we do we distribute the transcripts , how do we distribute the audio files , how do we how do we just do all that infrastructure ? phd c: well , i think i mean , for that particular issue ther there are known sources where people go to to find these kind of things like the ldc for instance . postdoc e: yeah , grad a: right , but but so should we do it in the same format as ldc postdoc e: that 's right . grad a: and what does that mean to what we 've done already ? phd b: right . the it 's not so much the actu the logistics of distribution are secondary to preparing the data in a suitable form for distribution . phd c: right . grad a: right . so , uh , as it is , it 's sort of a ad - hoc combination of stuff dan set and stuff i set up , which we may wan na make a little more formal . so . phd b: and the other thing is that , um , university of washington may want to start recording meetings as well , grad a: right . phd b: in which case w w we 'll have to decide what we 've actually got so that we can give them a copy . grad a: that 's right . undergrad d: a field trip . grad a: yeah . i was actually thinking i would n't mind spending the summer up there . that would be kind of fun . phd b: oh , really ? grad a: yeah . visit my friends and spend some time phd b: different for you . yes . grad a: well , and then also i have a bunch of stuff for doing this digits . so i have a bunch of scripts with x waves , and some perl scripts , and other things that make it really easy to extract out and align where the digits are . and if u d uw 's going to do the same thing i think it 's worth while for them to do these digits tasks as well . undergrad d: mm - hmm . grad a: and what i 've done is pretty ad - hoc , um , so we might wan na change it over to something a little more standard . phd c: hmm . grad a: you know , stm files , or xml , or something . undergrad d: an - and there 's interest up there ? grad a: what 's that ? undergrad d: there 's interest up there ? grad a: well they they certainly wan na collect more data . and so they 're applying , i think i b is that right ? something like that . phd b: i do n't know . grad a: um , for some more money to do more data . so we were planning to do like thirty or forty hours worth of meetings . they wan na do an additional hundred or so hours . so , they want a very large data set . um , but of course we 're not gon na do that if we do n't get money . so . phd b: i see . grad a: and i would like that just to get a disjoint speaker set and a disjoint room . i mean , one of the things morgan and i were talking about is we 're gon na get to know this room really well , phd c: mm - hmm . grad a: the the acoustics of this room . phd b: all about that . undergrad d: including the fan . grad a: including the fan . undergrad d: did you notice the fan difference ? phd b: oh , now you 've touched the fan control , now all our data 's gon na be undergrad d: hear the difference ? grad a: oh , it 's enormous . phd b: yeah , it 's great . postdoc e: oh , that 's better . undergrad d: do you wan na leave it off or not ? postdoc e: that 's better . grad a: all the others have been on . phd b: that 's undergrad d: yeah , the you sure ? phd b: oh , yeah . grad a: y absolut phd b: absolutely . undergrad d: you you think that grad a: yeah . undergrad d: things after the f then this fan 's wired backwards by the way . uh , i think this is high speed here . postdoc e: yeah , it 's noticeable . undergrad d: well , not clear . phd b: well it 's well like `` low `` is mid mid - scale . undergrad d: maybe it maybe it is n't . phd b: so it could be that it 's not actually wired backwards undergrad d: that 's right . phd b: it 's just that ambiguous . undergrad d: i was wondering also , get ready . { comment } whether the lights made any noise . postdoc e: uh - huh . grad a: there 's definitely yep . phd b: oh , they do . phd c: yeah , a little bit . phd b: yeah . grad a: high pitch hum . wow . undergrad d: so , do our meetings in the dark with no air conditioning in the future . grad a: yeah , just get a variety . postdoc e: i think candles would be nice if they do n't make noise . grad a: they 're very good . phd b: oh , yeah . phd c: it would you know , it would real really mean that we should do short meetings when you turn off the { comment } turn off the air conditioning , grad a: carbon monoxide poisoning ? undergrad d: short meetings , that 's right . or yeah , sort of { comment } r r phd c: got to finish this meeting . undergrad d: tear t tear your clothing off to stay cool . phd c: that 's right . undergrad d: actually , the a th air the air conditioning 's still working , that 's just an auxiliary fan . phd c: right , i see . grad a: so phd c: so , um , in addition to this issue about the uw stuff there was announced today , uh , via the ldc , um , a corpus from i believe santa barbara . postdoc e: yeah , i saw it . i 've been watching for that corpus . phd c: um , of general spoken english . postdoc e: yeah . yep . phd c: and i do n't know exactly how they recorded it but apparently there 's a lot of different styles of speech and what not . grad a: mm - hmm . phd c: and postdoc e: they had people come in to a certain degree and they and they have dat recorders . phd c: i see . so it is sort of far field stuff . right ? postdoc e: i i assume so , actually , i had n't thought about that . unless they added close field later on but , um , i 've listened to some of those data and i , um , i 've been i i was actually on the advisory board for when they set the project up . grad a: mm - hmm . phd c: oh , ok . phd b: what 's it sound like ? postdoc e: i 'm glad to see that it got released . grad a: yeah , i i wish postdoc e: so it it 's a very nice thing . grad a: i wish we had someone here working on adaptation phd c: s grad a: because it would nice to be able to take that stuff and adapt it to a meeting setting . you know phd c: but it may be it may be useful in postdoc e: how do you mean do you mean mechanical adaptation or grad a: no , software , to adapt the speech recognition . postdoc e: ok . phd c: well , what i was thinking is it may be useful in transcribing , if it 's far field stuff , grad a: mm - hmm . phd c: right ? in doing , um , some of our first automatic speech recognition models , it may be useful to have that kind of data postdoc e: great idea . phd c: because that 's very different than any kind of data that we have so far . grad a: that 's true . postdoc e: and and their recording conditions are really clean . i mean , i 've i 've heard i 've listened to the data . grad a: well that 's not good , right ? phd c: that 's that 's not great . postdoc e: it sounds undergrad d: tr postdoc e: well but what i mean is that , um undergrad d: but far field means great distance ? i mean grad a: just these . undergrad d: not head mounted ? phd b: yeah . undergrad d: and so that 's why they 're getting away with just two channels or something , or are they using multiple dats ? postdoc e: um , oh , good question and i ca n't ans answer it . grad a: well we can look into it . postdoc e: i do n't know . phd c: no , and their web their web page did n't answer it either . so i 'm , i uh , was thinking that we should contact them . postdoc e: ok . phd c: so it 's that 's sort of a beside - the - point point . but . grad a: so we can get that just with , uh , media costs , undergrad d: still a point . phd c: right . grad a: is that right ? phd c: uh , in fact we get it for free grad a: oh . phd c: cuz they 're distributing it through the ldc . grad a: great . postdoc e: yep . grad a: so that would be yeah , that would be something to look into . so . phd c: so , i can i can actually arrange for it to arrive in short order if we 're postdoc e: the other thing too is from from a grad a: well , it 's silly to do unless we 're gon na have someone to work on it , so maybe we need to think about it a little bit . phd c: huh . postdoc e: the other thing too is that their their jus their transcription format is really nice and simple in in the discourse domain . but they also mentioned that they have it time aligned . i mean , i s i i saw that write - up . phd c: yeah . maybe we should maybe we should get a copy of it just to see what they did phd b: yeah , absolutely . grad a: yeah . phd c: so so that we can we can compare . postdoc e: it 's very nice . grad a: ok , why do n't you go ahead and do that then eric ? phd b: absolutely . phd c: alright , i 'll do that . i ca n't remember the name of the corpus . it 's corps - s postdoc e: csae . phd c: s postdoc e: corpus of spoken american english . phd c: right , ok . postdoc e: yeah , sp i 've been i was really pleased to see that . i knew that they they had had some funding problems in completing it phd b: uh - huh . phd c: yeah . postdoc e: but , um , phd c: well they 're postdoc e: this is clever . phd c: apparently this was like phase one postdoc e: got it through the ldc . phd c: and the there 's still more that they 're gon na do apparently or something like that unless of course they have funding issues postdoc e: great . great . phd c: and then then it ma they may not do phase two but from all the web documentation it looked like , `` oh , this is phase one `` , whatever that means . postdoc e: super . super . great . yeah , that i mean , they 're really well respected in the linguistics d side too and the discourse area , phd c: ok . postdoc e: and so this is a very good corpus . phd c: but , it uh it would also maybe help be helpful for liz , if she wanted to start working on some discourse issues , you know , looking at some of this data and then , grad a: right . phd c: you know so when she gets here maybe that might be a good thing for her . grad a: actually , that 's another thing i was thinking about is that maybe jane should talk to liz , to see if there are any transcription issues related to discourse that she needs to get marked . postdoc e: ok . phd c: maybe we should have a big meeting meeting . phd b: sure , of course . undergrad d: that would be a meeting meeting meeting ? grad a: a meeting meeting meeting . phd c: yeah . grad a: well this is the meeting about the meeting meeting meeting . so . phd c: oh . grad a: um . phd c: right . but maybe we should , uh find some day that liz uh , liz and andreas seem to be around more often . grad a: mm - hmm . phd c: so maybe we should find a day when they 're gon na be here and and morgan 's gon na be here , and we can meet , at least this subgroup . i mean , not necessarily have the u - dub people down . grad a: well , i was even thinking that maybe we need to at least ping the u - dub to see phd c: we need we need to talk to them some more . grad a: you know , say `` this is what we 're thinking about for our transcription `` , if nothing else . so , well w shall we move on and talk a little bit about transcription then ? phd b: mm - hmm . let 's . phd c: yeah . grad a: ok , so { comment } since that 's what we 're talking about . what we 're using right now is a tool , um , from this french group , called `` transcriber `` that seems to work very well . um , so it has a , uh , nice useful tcl - tk user interface and , uh , undergrad d: thi - this is the process of converting audio to text ? grad a: right . undergrad d: and this requires humans just like the the stp stuff . grad a: yes , yeah . right , right . so we 're we 're at this point only looking for word level . so all all so what you have to do is just identify a segment of speech in time , and then write down what was said within it , and identify the speaker . and so the things we that we know that i know i want are the text , the start and end , and the speaker . but other people are interested in for example stress marking . and so jane is doing primary stress , um , stress marks as well . um , and then things like repairs , and false starts , and , filled pauses , and all that other sort of stuff , we have to decide how much of that we wan na do . postdoc e: i did include a glo { comment } uh , a certain first pass . my my view on it was when you have a repair then , uh it seems i mean , we saw , there was this presentation in the one of the speech group meetings about how grad a: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and i think liz has done some stuff too on that , that it , uh that you get it bracketed in terms of like well , if it 's parenthetical , which i know that liz has worked on , then uh y y you 'll have different prosodic aspects . grad a: mm - hmm . phd b: hmm . postdoc e: and then also if it 's a r if it 's a repair where they 're like what i just did , then it 's nice to have sort of a sense of the continuity of the utterance , the start to be to the finish . and , uh , it 's a little bit deceptive if you include the repai the pre - repair part and sometimes or of it 's in the middle . anyway , so what i was doing was bracketing them to indicate that they were repairs which is n't uh , very time - consuming . grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: i is there already some sort of plan in place for how this gon na be staffed or done ? or is it real is that what we 're talking about here ? grad a: well , that 's part of the thing we 're talking about . so what we wanted to do was have jane do basically one meeting 's worth , you know , forty minutes to an hour , postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad a: and postdoc e: as a pilot study . undergrad d: yourself ? grad a: yeah . undergrad d: it this is this is like five times real time or ten times real time postdoc e: yeah , as a pilot study . grad a: ten times about , is and so one of the things was to get an estimate of how long it would take , and then also what tools we would use . and so the next decision which has to be made actually pretty soon is how are we gon na do it ? so . undergrad d: and so you make jane do the first one so then she can decide , oh , we do n't need all this stuff , just the words are fine . postdoc e: that 's right , that 's right . phd b: that 's right . postdoc e: i wan na hear about these uh , we have a g you were s continuing with the transcription conventions for s grad a: r right , so so one one option is to get linguistics grad students and undergrads to do it . and apparently that 's happened in the past . and i think that 's probably the right way to do it . um , it will require a post pass , i mean people will have to look at it more than once to make sure that it 's been done correctly , but i just ca n't imagine that we 're gon na get anything that much better from a commercial one . and the commercial ones i 'm sure will be much more expensive . undergrad d: ca n't we get joy to do it all ? grad a: yeah right . postdoc e: no , that 's grad a: we will just get joy and jane to do everything . undergrad d: is tha was n't that what she was doing before ? yeah , that 's right . grad a: but , you know , that 's what we 're talking about is getting some slaves who who need money undergrad d: right . grad a: and , uh , duh , again o postdoc e: i object to that characterization ! phd b: oh , really . grad a: i meant joy . and so again , i have to say `` are we recording `` postdoc e: oh , thank you . ok . grad a: and then say , uh , morgan has has consistently resisted telling me how much money we have . undergrad d: right . well , the answer is zero . grad a: so . undergrad d: there 's a reason why he 's resisted . grad a: well , if it 's zero then we ca n't do any transcription . undergrad d: but . grad a: i mean , cuz we 're we undergrad d: right . phd b: i have such a hard name . grad a: i mean , i i ca n't imagine us doing it ourselves . right ? undergrad d: well , we already we already we already have a plan in place for the first meeting . grad a: n right . undergrad d: right ? that 's postdoc e: well th there is als yeah , really . there is also the o other possibility which is if you can provide not money but instructional experience or some other perks , you can you could get people to to um , to do it in exchange . grad a: right . undergrad d: well , i b but seriously , i i mean , morgan 's obviously in a bind over this and thing to do is just the field of dreams theory , which is we we go ahead as though there will be money at the time that we need the money . grad a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: and that 's that 's the best we can do . grad a: right . phd b: right . undergrad d: i b to not do anything until we get money is is ridiculous . grad a: right . undergrad d: we 're not gon na do any get anything done if we do that . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . grad a: so at any rate , jane was looking into the possibility of getting students , at is that right ? talking to people about that ? postdoc e: i 'm afraid i have n't made any progress in that front yet . grad a: ok . postdoc e: i should 've sent email and i have n't yet . grad a: yeah , right . so , uh undergrad d: i d do so until you actually have a little experience with what this this french thing does we do n't even have postdoc e: and i do have grad a: she 's already done quite a bit . undergrad d: oh , we have . postdoc e: i have a bunch of hours , grad a: yeah . undergrad d: i 'm sorry . so that 's where you came up with the f the ten x number ? postdoc e: yeah . undergrad d: or is that really just a guess ? postdoc e: actually that 's the the one people usually use , ten x . phd c: how fast are you ? postdoc e: and i have n't really calculated how fast am i ? undergrad d: yeah i postdoc e: i have n't done a s see , i 've been at the same time doing kind of a boot strapping in deciding on the transcription conventions that that are you know , and and stuff like , you know , how much phd b: mmm . phd c: right . postdoc e: there 's some interesting human factors problems like , yeah , what span of of time is it useful to segment the thing into in order to uh , transcribe it the most quickly . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: cuz then , you know , you get like if you get a span of five words , that 's easy . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: but then you have to take the time to mark it . and then there 's the issue of it 's easier to hear it th right the first time if you 've marked it at a boundary instead of somewhere in the middle , phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: cuz then the word 's bisected or whatever and and so i mean , i 've been sort of playing with , uh , different ways of mar cuz i 'm thinking , you know , i mean , if you could get optimal instructions you could cut back on the number of hours it would take . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: d does uh this tool you 're using is strictly it does n't do any speech recognition does it ? grad a: no . postdoc e: no , it does n't but what a super tool . it 's a great environment . undergrad d: but but is there anyway to to wire a speech recognizer up to it and actually run it through postdoc e: that 's an interesting idea . grad a: we 've we 've thought about doing that postdoc e: hey ! grad a: but the recognition quality is gon na be horrendous . undergrad d: well , a couple things . phd b: wow . undergrad d: first of all the time marking you 'd get you could get by a tool . phd b: that 's true . undergrad d: and so if the if if the issue really postdoc e: that 's interesting . undergrad d: uh , i 'm think about the close caption that you see running by on on live news casts . grad a: most of those are done by a person . undergrad d: you know , yo i know i know that . postdoc e: yeah , i undergrad d: no , i understand . and in a lot of them you see typos and things like that , grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: but it but it occurs to me that it may be a lot easier to correct things than it is to do things from scratch , no matter how wonderful the tool is . grad a: yeah . yeah , we undergrad d: but if if there was a way to merge the two phd c: well , i mean , but sometimes it 's easier to type out something instead of going through and figuring out which is the right grad a: i mean , we 've talked about it postdoc e: that 'd be fun . grad a: but phd c: i mean , it depends on the error rate , right ? undergrad d: well s but but again the timing is for fr should be for free . the timing should be phd c: but we do n't care about the timing of the words . undergrad d: well i thought you just that 's said that was a critical issue . grad a: we do n't care about the timing of the words , just of the utterances . postdoc e: no , uh the the boundary phd c: we cut it s s phd b: we do n't we do n't know , actually . postdoc e: boundary . phd b: we have n't decided which which time we care about , and that 's kind of one of the things that you 're saying , is like you have the option to put in more or less timing data and , uh , be in the absence of more specific instructions , we 're trying to figure out what the most convenient thing to do is . grad a: yeah , so so what what she 's done so far , is sort of more or less breath g not breath groups , { comment } sort of phrases , continuous phrases . phd b: yeah . grad a: and so , um , that 's nice because you you separate when you do an extract , you get a little silence on either end . so that seems to work really well . postdoc e: that 's ideal . grad a: um . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: although i was i you know , the alternative , which i was sort of experimenting with before i ran out of time , recently was , um that , you know , ev if it were like an arbitrary segment of time i t pre - marked cuz it does take time to put those markings in . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: it 's really the i the interface is wonderful because , you know , the time it takes is you listen to it , and then you press the return key . but then , you know , it 's like , uh , you press the tab key to stop the flow and and , uh , the return key to p to put in a marking of the boundary . but , you know , obviously there 's a lag between when you hear it and when you can press the return key phd b: yeah . postdoc e: so it 's slightly delayed , so then you you listen to it a second time and move it over to here . undergrad d: a postdoc e: so that takes time . undergrad d: i a postdoc e: now if it could all be pre - marked at some , l you know , good undergrad d: ar but grad a: hmm . undergrad d: are are those d delays adjustable ? those delays adjustable ? see a lot of people who actually build stuff with human computer interfaces understand that delay , phd b: yeah . undergrad d: and and so when you by the time you click it it 'll be right on because it 'll go back in time to put the postdoc e: yeah . phd b: it could do that postdoc e: yeah , uh , not in this case . grad a: we could program that pretty easily , phd b: could n't it . postdoc e: it has other grad a: could n't we dan ? yeah , mis mister tcl ? phd b: yeah . postdoc e: oh , interesting point . phd b: i would have thought so , yeah . postdoc e: ah ! { comment } interesting point . phd b: mmm . postdoc e: ok , that would make a difference . grad a: but , um postdoc e: i mean , it 's not bad grad a: but , if we tried to do automatic speaker id . postdoc e: but it does take twice . grad a: i mean , cuz primarily the markings are at speaker change . phd b: yeah , yeah , but grad a: but that would be phd b: but we 've got we 've got the most channel data . we 'd have to do it from your signal . right . i mean , we 've we 've got we 've got a lot of data . postdoc e: oh , good point ! ah ! grad a: yeah , i guess the question is how much time will it really save us versus the time to write all the tools to do it . postdoc e: we 've got volume . phd b: right . but the chances are if we if we 're talking about collecting ten or a hundred hours , which is going to take a hundred or a thousand hours to transcribe undergrad d: if grad a: but undergrad d: if we can go from ten x to five x we 're doing a big grad a: we 're gon na need we 're gon na need ten to a hundred hours to train the tools , and validate the tools the do the d to to do all this anyway . phd c: right . so maybe postdoc e: wow . phd b: if we 're just doing silence detection postdoc e: but but it op grad a: i knew you were gon na do that . just saw it coming . postdoc e: i 'm sorry . i wish you had told me wish you 'd told me . undergrad d: put put it on your sweater . postdoc e: at what part ? ok , i 'm alright . phd b: um , i it seems like well , uh , i do n't know . yeah . i mean , it it 's it 's maybe like a week 's work to get to do something like this . so forty or fifty hours . phd c: right . postdoc e: could you get it so that with so it would it would detect volume on a channel and insert a marker ? and the the format 's really transparent . phd b: sure . phd c: yeah . postdoc e: it 's just a matter of a very c clear it 's xml , is n't it ? grad a: mm - hmm . postdoc e: it 's very i mean , i looked at the the file format and it 's just it has a t a time a time indication and then something or other , and then an end time or something or other . phd c: so maybe maybe we could try the following experiment . take the data that you 've already transcribed postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd c: and undergrad d: is this already in the past or already in the future ? phd c: already in the past . undergrad d: you 've already you 've already done some ? grad a: she 's she 's done about half a meeting . phd c: she she 's done one she 's one postdoc e: yes i have . undergrad d: oh - oh , i see . phd c: right . undergrad d: ok , grad a: right ? phd c: right . undergrad d: good . grad a: about half ? phd c: i 'm go postdoc e: s i 'm not sure if it 's that 's much but anyway , enough to work with . phd c: right . phd b: several minutes . phd c: um , and and throw out the words , but keep the time markings . and then go through i mean , and go through and and try and re - transcribe it , given that we had perfect boundary detection . postdoc e: ok . good idea . phd c: and see if it see if it see if it feels easier to you . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: and forgetting all the words because you 've been thr postdoc e: yeah , that 's what i was thinking . i 'd i 'd be cheating a little bit g with familiarity effect . phd c: yeah , i mean uh , that 's part of the problem is , is that what we really need is somebody else to come along . phd b: well , no , you should do it you should do it do it again from scratch and then do it again at the boundaries . so you do the whole thing three times and then we get phd c: yeah . postdoc e: no . now , there 's a plan . undergrad d: and then then w since we need some statistics do it three more . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: and so you 'll get you 'll get down to one point two x by the time you get done . postdoc e: oh , yeah . i 'll do that tomorrow . i should have it finished by the end of the day . undergrad d: no , but the thing is the fact that she 's she 's did it before just might give a lower bound . that 's all . phd b: yeah . phd c: right . undergrad d: uh , which is fine . postdoc e: exactly . undergrad d: it 's and if the lower bound is nine x then w it 's a waste of time . postdoc e: yeah . phd c: right . postdoc e: well , uh but there 's an extra problem which is that i did n't really keep accurate phd b: oh ! postdoc e: uh , it was n't a pure task the first time , phd b: yeah . postdoc e: so uh , it 's gon na be an upper bound in in that case . and it 's not really strictly comparable . so i think though it 's a good proposal to be used on a new a new batch of text that i have n't yet done yet in the same meeting . could use it on the next segment of the text . phd b: the point we where do we get the the the oracle boundaries from ? phd c: right . phd b: or the boundaries . grad a: yeah , one person would have to assign the boundaries and the and the other person would have to postdoc e: well , but could n't i do it for the next phd b: we we we could get fake grad a: i mean that 's easy enough . postdoc e: oh , i see what you mean . grad a: i could do that . postdoc e: well , but the oracle boundaries would come from volume on a partic specific channel would n't they ? grad a: no , no . phd b: that would be the automatic boundaries . phd c: no , no , no , no . you wan na know given given a perfect human segmentation , i mean , you wan na know how well postdoc e: yeah . phd c: i mean , the the question is , is it worth giving you the segmentation ? postdoc e: oh , i see what you mean . grad a: i mean , that that 's easy enough . phd c: right . postdoc e: yeah . grad a: i could generate the segmentation and and you could do the words , and time yourself on it . so . undergrad d: a little double - blind - ear kind of thing . grad a: yep . postdoc e: i see . ok . grad a: so it that might be worth doing . postdoc e: that 's good . i like that . grad a: that would at least tell us whether it 's worth spending a week or two trying to get a tool , that will compute the segmentations . phd c: right . undergrad d: and the thing to keep in mind too about this tool , guys is that sure , you can do the computation for what we 're gon na do in the future but if if uw 's talking about doing two , or three , or five times as much stuff and they can use the same tool , then obviously there 's a real multiplier there . grad a: right . postdoc e: and the other thing too is with with speaker identification , if if that could handle speaker identification that 's a big deal . phd b: well it w phd c: right . undergrad d: well , use it . yeah , that 's why we s bought the expensive microphones . postdoc e: ok . yeah , i mean , that 's a nice feature . grad a: yep . phd b: yeah , yeah . postdoc e: that 's a major that 's like , one of the two things that phd c: i mean , there 's gon na there 's gon na be in the meeting , like the reading group meeting that we had the other day , that 's it 's gon na be a bit of a problem phd b: ok . phd c: because , like , i was n't wearing a microphone phd b: yes . phd c: f and there were other people that were n't wearing microphones . grad a: that undergrad d: but you did n't say anything worth while anyway , right ? grad a: that 'll s phd b: right . phd c: that 's pretty much true postdoc e: yeah . grad a: it might save ninety percent of the work though . phd c: but but , yes . grad a: so . phd b: so i i need to we need to look at what what the final output is but it seems like we it does n't it seems like it 's not really not that hard to have an automatic tool to generate the phrase marks , and the speaker , and speaker identity without putting in the words . grad a: yeah . i 've already become pretty familiar with the format , postdoc e: that 'd be so great . grad a: so it would be easy . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: yeah . yeah . grad a: if you 'd tell me where it is , huh ? postdoc e: we did n't finish the the part of work already completed on this , did we ? i mean , you you talked a little bit about the transcription conventions , grad a: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and , i guess you 've mentioned in your progress report , or status report , that you had written a script to convert it into so , i when i i the it 's quickest for me in terms of the transcription part to say something like , you know , if if adam spoke to , um to just say , `` a colon `` , like who could be , you know , i mean at the beginning of the line . phd b: mmm . postdoc e: and e colon instead of entering the interface for speaker identification and clicking on the thing , uh , indicating the speaker id . so , and then he has a script that will convert it into the the thing that , uh , would indicate speaker id . grad a: it 's pretty cute . postdoc e: if that 's clear . phd c: ok . grad a: but at any rate . so , um , postdoc e: it 's perl script . grad a: right . so so i think the guess at ten x seems to be pretty standard . everyone more or less everyone you talk to says about ten times for hard technical transcription . postdoc e: mm - hmm . undergrad d: using wh using stone age postdoc e: yeah . undergrad d: using stone age tools . postdoc e: that 's right . grad a: using using stone age tools . i mean , i looked at cyber transcriber postdoc e: yeah , well that 's true , but grad a: which is a service that you send an audio file , they do a first - pass speech recognition . and then they they do a clean up . but it 's gon na be horrible . they 're never gon na be able to do a meeting like this . phd b: no . undergrad d: right . postdoc e: what i just approximately , what did you find out in terms of price or or whatever ? grad a: well , for cyber transcriber they do n't quote a price . they want you to call and and talk . so for other services , um , they were about thirty dollars an hour . postdoc e: of of tape ? grad a: thirty so , yeah . postdoc e: or of action ? grad a: for thirty dollars an hour for of their work . postdoc e: ok . ok . oh , of their grad a: so so if it 's ten times it 's three hundred dollars an hour . postdoc e: oh ! phd c: so that 's three that 's three hours . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: d did you talk to anybody that does closed captioning for for uh , tv ? phd c: right . grad a: no . undergrad d: cuz they a usually at the end of the show they 'll tell what the name of the company is , the captioning company that 's doing it . grad a: mm - hmm . yeah , so so my my search was pretty cursory . postdoc e: interesting . grad a: it was just a net search . and , uh , so it was only people who have web pages and are doing stuff through that . undergrad d: well , you know , the the thing the thing about this is thinking kind of , maybe a little more globally than i should here but { comment } that really this could be a big contribution we could make . uh , i mean , we 've been through the stp thing , we know what it what it 's like to to manage the manage the process , and admittedly they might have been looking for more detail than what we 're looking for here but it was a it was a big hassle , right ? phd b: yeah . undergrad d: i mean , uh , you know , they they constantly could 've reminding people and going over it . and clearly some new stuff needs to be done here . and it 's it 's only our time , where `` our `` of course includes dan , dan and you guys . it does n't include me at all . uh . j just seems like phd b: yeah , i mean i do n't know if we 'd be able to do any thing f to help stp type problems . but certainly for this problem we can do a lot better than undergrad d: bec why ? because they wanted a lot more detail ? grad a: right . phd b: no . because they had because they only had two speakers , right ? i mean , the the segmentation problem is grad a: trivial . undergrad d: only had two . grad a: they had two speakers over the telephone . undergrad d: oh , i see . so what took them so long ? grad a: um , mostly because they were doing much lower level time . phd b: yeah . grad a: so they were doing phone and syllable transcription , as well as , uh , word transcription . undergrad d: right . right . phd c: right . postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad a: and so we 're w we decided early on that we were not gon na do that . undergrad d: i see . but there 's still the same issue of managing the process , of of reviewing and keeping the files straight , and all this stuff , that which is clearly a hassle . grad a: yep . phd b: yeah . grad a: right . and so so what i 'm saying is that if we hire an external service i think we can expect three hundred dollars an hour . phd b: yeah . grad a: i think that 's the ball park . there were several different companies that and the the range was very tight for technical documents . twenty - eight to thirty - two dollars an hour . phd c: and who who knows if they 're gon na be able to m manage multal multiple channel data ? phd b: yeah , they wo n't . grad a: they wo n't . phd b: they w they 'll refuse to do it . grad a: we 'll have to mix them . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . phd c: right . phd b: no , but i mean , they they they wo n't they wo n't they will refuse to transcribe this kind of material . postdoc e: and then there 's the problem also that phd b: that 's not what they 're d quoting for , right ? grad a: yes , it is . undergrad d: well , they might they might quote it phd b: for quoting meetings ? grad a: sev - several of them say that they 'll do meetings , and conferences , and s and so on . none of them specifically said that they would do speaker id , or speaker change mark . phd b: wow . yeah . grad a: they all just said transcription . undergrad d: th - th the th there may be just multiplier for five people costs twice as much and for ten people co { comment } something like that . phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . grad a: well , the the way it worked is it it was scaled . so what they had is , if it 's an easy task it costs twenty - four dollars an hour and it will take maybe five or six times real time . and what they said is for the hardest tasks , bad acoustics , meeting settings , it 's thirty - two dollars an hour and it takes about ten times real time . so i think that we can count on that being about what they would do . phd b: i see . yeah . grad a: it would probably be a little more phd b: right . postdoc e: yeah . grad a: because we 're gon na want them to do speaker marking . undergrad d: a lot of companies i 've worked for y the , uh the person leading the meeting , the executive or whatever , would sort of go around the room and and mentally calculate h how many dollars per hour this meeting was costing , grad a: so . undergrad d: right ? in university atmosphere you get a little different thing . but you know , it 's a lot like , `` he 's worth fifty an hour , he 's worth `` and so he so here we 're thinking , `` well let 's see , if the meeting goes another hour it 's going to be another thousand dollars . `` you know ? it 's grad a: yep , we have to have a short meeting . undergrad d: so ch so every everybody ta talk really fast . postdoc e: that 's very interesting . grad a: stop talking ! phd b: yeah . undergrad d: let 's get it over with . postdoc e: talk slowly but with few words . grad a: and clearly . phd b: that 's right . undergrad d: and only talk when you 're pointed to . postdoc e: there you go . grad a: content words only . postdoc e: we could have some telegraphic meetings . that might be interesting . phd b: yeah , it 'd be cheap . undergrad d: phd b: cheap to transcribe . grad a: so . but at any rate , so we we have a ballpark on how much it would cost if we send it out . undergrad d: and we 're talking about do doing how many hours worth of meetings ? grad a: thirty or forty . undergrad d: so thirty or forty thousand dollars . phd b: well , for ten thousand dollars . postdoc e: yeah . phd c: so , meanwhile undergrad d: oh . what well , it was thirty times phd b: three hundred . grad a: three hundred dollars an hour . undergrad d: oh , i 'm sorry , three hundred . grad a: right . undergrad d: right , i w got an extra factor of three there . phd c: so it 's thirty dollars an hour , essentially , right ? undergrad d: yeah . phd c: but we can pay a graduate student seven dollars an hour . and the question is what 's the difference phd b: how how much lower are they ? phd c: or ei eight dollars . what do you know what the going rate is ? it 's it 's on the order of eight to ten . postdoc e: i think uh that would give us a a good good estimate . phd c: i think . but i 'm not sure . postdoc e: i 'd i 'd say phd b: ten . postdoc e: yeah , i was gon na say eight you 'd say ten ? phd c: let 's say ten . phd b: yeah , give them a break . phd c: cuz it 's easier . undergrad d: the - these are not for engineering graduate students , right ? grad a: right , these are linguistics grad students . six . phd c: yeah , i i i do n't i do n't know what the i do n't know what the standard undergrad d: that 's right . phd c: but there is a standard pay scale grad a: mm - hmm . phd c: i just do n't know what it is . postdoc e: yeah , that 's right . that 's right . phd c: um , so that means that even if it takes them thirty times real time it 's cheaper to to do graduate students . postdoc e: and there 's another aspect too . grad a: i mean , that 's why i said originally , that i could n't imagine sending it out 's gon na be cheaper . phd b: no , it is n't . so . postdoc e: the other thing too is that , uh , if they were linguistics they 'd be you know , in terms of like the post editing , i uh tu uh content wise they might be easier to handle cuz they might get it more right the first time . grad a: and also we would have control of i mean , we could give them feedback . whereas if we do a service it 's gon na be limited amount . phd b: yep , yep . postdoc e: mmm . grad a: i mean , we ca n't tell them , you know , `` for this meeting we really wan na mark stress postdoc e: good point . phd b: yep . grad a: and for this meeting we want `` phd b: no . postdoc e: good point . grad a: and and they 're not gon na provide they 're not gon na provide stress , they 're not gon na re provide repairs , they 're not gon na provide they they may or may not provide speaker id . so that we would have to do our own tools to do that . so postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad a: i just phd b: yeah . undergrad d: just hypoth hypothetically assuming that that we go ahead and ended up using graduate students . i who who 's the person in charge ? who 's gon na be the steve here ? grad a: i hope it 's jane . undergrad d: you ? grad a: is that alright ? postdoc e: oh , interesting . um , now would this involve some manner of uh , monetary compensation or would i be the voluntary , uh , coordinator of multiple transcribers for checking ? grad a: um , i would imagine there would be some monetary involved but we 'd have to talk to morgan about it . phd b: yeah , out of out of adam 's pocket . phd c: yeah . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: you know , it just means you have to stop working for dave . see ? postdoc e: oh , undergrad d: that 's why dave should have been here . postdoc e: i do n't wan na stop working for dave . undergrad d: to pr protect his people . grad a: well , i would like you to do it because you have a lot more experience than i do , postdoc e: oh , cool . yeah . grad a: but if if that 's not feasible , i will do it with you as an advisor . postdoc e: uh - huh . undergrad d: w we 'd like you to do it and we 'd like to pay you . postdoc e: we 'll see . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: not being morgan though , it 's postdoc e: ok . phd c: right . postdoc e: oh , i see . phd b: we 'd like to . unfortunately postdoc e: well undergrad d: yeah . postdoc e: yeah . grad a: yeah , six dollars an hour . postdoc e: yeah , i see . phd c: that 's a undergrad d: and and then postdoc e: ok . boy , if i wanted to increase my income i could start doing the transcribing again . phd b: yeah , that 's right . yeah . undergrad d: an an an and be and be sure and say , would you like fries with that when you 're thinking about your pay scale . postdoc e: i see . good . yeah , no , that i i would be interested in that in becoming involved in the project in some aspect like that grad a: ok . more . postdoc e: more . yeah . uh - huh . yeah . grad a: um , any more on transcript we wan na talk about ? phd b: what s so what are you so you 've done some portion of the first meeting . and what 's your plan ? postdoc e: yes . mm - hmm . phd b: to carry on doing it ? postdoc e: what well , you know what i thought was right now we have p so i gave him the proposal for the transcription conventions . he made his , uh , suggestion of improvement . phd b: ok . postdoc e: the the it 's a good suggestion . so as far as i 'm concerned those transcription conventions are fixed right now . and so my next plan would be phd b: what what do they what do they cover ? postdoc e: they 're very minimal . so , it would be good to just to summarize that . so , um , one of them is the idea of how to indicate speaker change , phd b: yeah . postdoc e: and this is a way which meshes well with with , uh , making it so that , uh , you know , on the at the phd b: yeah . postdoc e: boy , it 's such a nice interface . when you when you get the , um you you get the speech signal you also get down beneath it , an indication of , uh , if you have two speakers overlapping in a s in a single segment , you see them one displayed one above each other . and then at the same time the top s part of the screen is the actual verbatim thing . you can clip click on individual utterances and it 'll take you immediately to that part of the speech signal , and play it for you . and you can , eh you can work pretty well between those two these two things . undergrad d: is there a limit to the number of speakers ? grad a: um , the user interface only allows two . and so if if you 're using their interface to specify overlapping speakers you can only do two . phd b: hmm . grad a: but my script can handle any . and their save format can handle any . and so , um , using this the convention that jane and i have discussed , you can have as many overlapping speakers as you want . undergrad d: do y is this a , uh , university project ? phd b: yeah . undergrad d: th - this is the french software , right ? grad a: yeah , french . phd b: yeah , yeah , grad a: yeah . and they 're they 've been quite responsive . phd b: their academic . undergrad d: eh grad a: i 've been exchanging emails on various issues . phd b: oh , really ? undergrad d: uh , did you ask them to change the interface for more speakers ? postdoc e: oh . grad a: yes , and they said that 's on in in the works for the next version . undergrad d: good . phd c: oh , so multi multichannels . undergrad d: good . grad a: multichannels was also well , they said they wanted to do it but that the code is really very organized around single channels . so i think that 's n unlikely to ha happen . phd c: i see . ok . undergrad d: do - do you know what they 're using it for ? why 'd they develop it ? grad a: for this exact task ? phd c: for transcription . undergrad d: are they linguists ? phd c: it 's undergrad d: but i mean , are they are they linguists or are they speech recognition people ? grad a: i think they 're linguists . postdoc e: ho phd b: linguists . postdoc e: hmm . phd b: yeah . phd c: they 're they have some connection to the ldc cuz the ldc has been advising them on this process , the linguistic data consortium . um , undergrad d: mm - hmm . phd c: so but a apart from that . grad a: it 's also all the source is available . phd c: yeah . grad a: so . phd c: right . grad a: if you if you speak tcltk . undergrad d: great . mm - hmm . grad a: and they have they 've actually asked if we are willing to do any development and i said , well , maybe . phd c: right . undergrad d: good . grad a: so if we want if we did if we did something like programmed in a delay , which actually i think is a great idea , um , i 'm sure they would want that incorporated back in . postdoc e: mm - hmm . yeah , i do too . phd b: mm - hmm . undergrad d: their pre pre - lay . phd b: pre - lay . grad a: way . postdoc e: pre - lay . well , and they 've thought about things . you know , i mean , they they do have so you have when you when you play it back , um , it 's it is useful to have , uh , a a break mark to se segment it . but it would n't be strictly necessary cuz you can use the uh , the tabbed key to toggle the sound on and off . i mean , it 'll stop the s speech you know if you if you press a tab . and , um . and so , uh , that 's a nice feature . and then also once you 've put a break in then you have the option of cycling through the unit . you could do it like multiply until you get { comment } crazy and decide to stop cycling through that unit . undergrad d: loop it ? yo - you n you know , there 's al also the the user interface that 's missing . postdoc e: or or or undergrad d: it 's missing from all of our offices , and that is some sort of analog input for something like this . it 's what audio people actually use of course . it 's something that wh when you move your hand further , the sound goes faster past it , like fast forward . you know , like a joy stick or a uh , you could wire a mouse or trackball to do something like that . postdoc e: why , that 's that 's not something i wanted to have happen . undergrad d: no , but i 'm saying if this is what professionals who actually do this kind of thing for for for m for video or for audio where you you need to do this , postdoc e: i see . uh - huh . undergrad d: and so you get very good at sort of jostling back and forth , rather than hitting tab , and backspace , and carriage return , and enter , and things like that . phd b: mmm . mmm . postdoc e: uh - huh . grad a: yeah , we talked about things like foot pedals and other analog phd c: yeah . undergrad d: mm - hmm . grad a: so i mean , tho those are things we could do but i i just do n't know how much it 's worth doing . i mean we 're just gon na have undergrad d: ye - yeah . phd c: yeah . undergrad d: right . postdoc e: yeah , i i agree . they they have several options . so , uh , you know , i mentioned the looping option . another option is it 'll pause when it reaches the end of the boundary . and then to get to the next boundary you just press tab grad a: hmm . postdoc e: and it goes on to the next unit . undergrad d: cool . postdoc e: i mean , it 's very nicely thought out . phd c: hmm . postdoc e: they thought about and also it 'll go around the c the , uh , i wan na say cursor but i 'm not sure if that 's the right thing . grad a: point , whatever . postdoc e: anyway , you can so they thought about different ways of having windows that you c uh work within , phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and but so in terms of the con the conventions , then , uh , basically , uh , it 's strictly orthographic which means with some w provisions for , uh , w uh , colloquial forms . so if a person said , `` cuz `` instead of `` because `` then i put a an apostrophe at the beginning of the word and then in in double ang angle brackets what the full lexical item would be . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and this could be something that was handled by a table or something but i think to have a convention marking it as a non - standard or wha i do n't mean standard but a a a non uh , ortho orthographic , uh , whatever . phd b: mm - hmm . grad a: non - canonical . phd c: mm - hmm . postdoc e: `` gon na `` or `` wan na `` , you know , the same thing . and and there would be limits to how much refinement you want in indicating something as non - standard pres pronunciation . phd c: how are you handling backchannels ? postdoc e: backchannels ? grad a: comments . postdoc e: um , you know oh , yes , there was some in my view , when i when you 've got it densely overlapping , um , i did n't worry about i did n't worry about s specific start times . phd c: what do you mean by du postdoc e: i sort of thought that this is not gon na be { comment } easily processed anyway and maybe i should n't spend too much time getting exactly when the person said `` no `` , or , you know , uh , i `` immediate `` . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: and instead just sort of rendered `` within this time slot , there were two people speaking during part of it phd b: yeah . postdoc e: and if you want more detail , figure it out for yourself `` , phd b: mm - hmm . grad a: well , i think what w what eric was talking about was channels other than the direct speech , phd c: i see . postdoc e: was sort of the way i felt @ @ grad a: right ? phd c: well , yeah , what i mean is wh i mean , when somebody says `` uh - huh `` in the middle of , uh , a @ @ grad a: yep . postdoc e: uh - huh . that happened very seldom . phd c: oh , cuz i was i was listening to dan was agreeing a lot to things that you were saying as you were talking . undergrad d: uh - huh . uh - huh . postdoc e: oh , well , thank you dan . phd c: so . postdoc e: appreciate it . well , if it if there was a word like `` right `` , you know , then i wou i would indicate that it happened within the same tem time frame grad a: yeah , there 's an overlapping mark . phd c: and phd b: yeah . postdoc e: but would n't say exactly when it happened . undergrad d: i 'll be right back . phd b: i transcribed a minute of this stuff phd c: i see . phd b: and there was a lot of overlapping . it was postdoc e: a lot of overlapping , yeah . grad a: well there there 's a lot of overlapping at the beginning and end . phd b: yeah . yeah . grad a: huge amounts . phd b: it was at the beginning . grad a: um , when when no one i when we 're not actually in the meeting , and we 're all sort of separated , and and doing things . but even during the meeting there 's a lot of overlap but it it 's marked pretty clearly . um , some of the backchannel stuff jane had some comments and but i think a lot of them were because you were at the meeting . and so i think that that often often you ca n't tell . postdoc e: yeah , well that 's true . that 's another issue . grad a: i mean , jane had had comments like uh , to who who the person was speaking to . phd c: yeah . postdoc e: yeah . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: only when it was otherwise gon na be puzzling grad a: yeah . postdoc e: because he was in the other room talking . grad a: yeah , but someone who , uh , was just the transcriber would n't have known that . postdoc e: yeah . grad a: or when dan said , `` i wa i was n't talking to you `` . phd c: right . postdoc e: that 's true . i know . undergrad d: so you take a bathroom break in the middle and and keep your head mount grad a: you have to turn off your mike . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: oh , you do ? phd b: you do n't have to . postdoc e: well he was so so he was checking the meter levels and and we were handling things while he was labeling the the whatever it was , the pda ? grad a: mm - hmm . phd b: uh - huh . postdoc e: and and so he was in sort of you were sort of talking you know , so i was saying , like `` and i could label this one left . right ? `` and he and he said , `` i do n't see anything `` . and he said he said , `` i was n't talking to you `` . or it was n't it did n't sound quite that rude . grad a: but postdoc e: but really , no , uh w you know in the context if you know he ca n't hear what he 's saying grad a: but when you w when you listen to it undergrad d: he he it was a lot funnier if you were there though . postdoc e: uh , yeah , grad a: well what what it what happens is if you 're a transcriber listening to it it sounds like dan is just being a total totally impolite . postdoc e: i know . well , you 'll see . you can listen to it . oh , i thought it was you who was . no , well , but you were you were asking off the wall questions . grad a: um but but if you knew that that i was n't actually in the room , and that dan was n't talking to me , it it became ok . so . phd b: i see . undergrad d: so th postdoc e: and that 's w that 's where i added comments . phd c: hmm . postdoc e: the rest of the time i did n't bother with who was talking to who but but this was unusual circum circumstance . undergrad d: so this is this is gon na go on the meeting meeting transcriber bloopers tape , right ? grad a: yes . right . postdoc e: well and part of it was funny , uh reason was because it was a mixed signal so you could n't get any clues from volume that , you know , he was really far away from this conversation . grad a: stereo . yeah . postdoc e: you could n't do that symmetrically in any case . phd b: no . grad a: oh . i should rewrite the mix tool to put half the people in one channel and half in the other . i have a auto - gain - mixer tool that mixes all the head mounted microphones into one signal postdoc e: that 's a good idea . undergrad d: mm - hmm . grad a: and that seems to work really well for the uh transcribers . undergrad d: great . postdoc e: but i thought it would be you know , i i did n't wan na add more contextual comments than were needed but that , it seemed to me , clarified that the con what was going on . and , uh ok , phd c: so , s postdoc e: so normalization phd c: i was just gon na ask , uh , so i just wanted to c sort of finish off the question i had about backchannels , phd b: mmm . phd c: if that 's ok , postdoc e: yeah . ok . phd c: which which was , so say somebody 's talking for a while postdoc e: yeah . phd c: and somebody goes `` mm - hmm `` in the middle of it , and and and what not , does the conversation come out from the or the person who 's speaking for the long time as one segment and then there 's this little tiny segment of this other speaker or does it does the fact that there 's a backchannel split the the the it in two . postdoc e: ok , my my focus was to try and maintain conten con content continuity and , uh , to keep it within what he was saying . like i would n't say breath groups but prosodic or intonational groups as much as possible . so if someone said `` mm - hmm `` in the middle of a of someone 's , uh , uh , intonational contour , i i indicated it as , like what you just did . phd c: ok . postdoc e: then i indicated it as a segment which contained @ @ { comment } this utterance plus an overlap . phd b: but that 's but there 's only one there 's only one time boundary for both speakers , phd c: ok . phd b: right ? postdoc e: yeah , that 's right . and you know , it could be made more precise than that phd c: i see , postdoc e: but i just thought phd c: i see , ok . postdoc e: yeah . phd c: right . undergrad d: i think whenever we use these speech words we should always do the thing like you 're talking about , accent , postdoc e: oh , i see what you mean . and then `` hesitation `` . yeah . ok , and so then , uh , in terms of like words like `` uh `` and `` um `` i just wrote them because i figured there 's a limited number , and i keep them to a uh , limited set because it did n't matter if it was `` mmm `` or `` um `` , { comment } you know , versus `` um `` . so i just always wrote it as u m . phd b: ok . postdoc e: and `` uh - huh `` , you know , `` uhuh . `` i mean , like a s set of like five . but in any case i did n't mark those . phd b: no . phd c: mm - hmm . phd b: `` uh - huh `` is `` u h h u h . `` h u h . `` postdoc e: i 'd be happy with that . that 'd be fine . it 'd be good to have that in the in the conventions , what 's to be used . phd c: huh - uh . grad a: i i did notice that there were some segments that had pauses on the beginning and end . we should probably mark areas that have no speakers as no speaker . then , so question mark colon is fine for that . postdoc e: yeah , that 's a fine idea . that 's a fine idea . grad a: just say silence . undergrad d: well , what 's that mean ? postdoc e: yeah , ok . yeah . undergrad d: you mean re grad a: no one 's talking . undergrad d: ye s oh . silence all around . grad a: yep . undergrad d: yep . phd b: we have to mark those ? postdoc e: so i had phd b: do n't they d ca n't we just leave them unmarked ? postdoc e: i d well , you see , that 's possible too . grad a: well , i wan na leave the marked i do n't want them to be part of another utterance . so you just you need to have the boundary at the start and the end . phd b: ok . sure . postdoc e: mm - hmm . now that 's refinement that , uh , maybe it could be handled by part of the part of the script or something more phd b: uh , yeah , it seems like it seems like the , uh , tran the transcription problem would be very different if we had these automatic speaker detection turn placing things . because suddenly i mean , i do n't know , actually it sounds like there might be a problem putting it into the software if the software only handles two parallel channels . but assuming we can get around that somehow . postdoc e: mm - hmm . well you were saying , i think it can read grad a: it can read and write as many as you want , it 's just that it postdoc e: uh - huh . phd b: but what if you wan na edit it ? right ? i mean , the point is we 're gon na generate this transcript with five five tracks in it , but with no words . someone 's gon na have to go in and type in the words . um , and if there are five five people speaking at once , grad a: right , i it 's i did n't explain it well . if we use the the little the conventions that jane has established , i have a script that will convert from that convention to their saved convention . phd b: oh , yeah . yes . postdoc e: which allows five . grad a: right . postdoc e: and it can be m edited after the fact , grad a: yes . postdoc e: ca n't it also ? but their but their format , if you wanted to in indicate the speakers right there instead of doing it through this indirect route , then i they a c window comes up and it only allows you to enter two speakers . phd b: yeah . right . undergrad d: but you 're saying that by the time you call it back in to from their saved format it opens up a window with window with five speakers ? postdoc e: so . but . grad a: right . undergrad d: oh ! that is sort of f grad a: it 's just user interface . undergrad d: they did n't quite go the whole grad a: so i it 's undergrad d: yeah , they did n't go the whole route , grad a: the the the whole saved form the saved format and the internal format , all that stuff , handles multiple speakers . undergrad d: did they ? they just grad a: it 's just there 's no user interface for specifying multiple any more than two . undergrad d: right . so your your script solves does n't it solve all our problems , postdoc e: and that grad a: yep . undergrad d: cuz we 're always gon na wan na go through this preprocessing grad a: yep . undergrad d: uh , assuming it works . grad a: yep . postdoc e: and that works nicely cuz this so quick to enter . so i would n't wan na do it through the interface anyway adding which worry who the speaker was . grad a: yep . undergrad d: i see . right . good . postdoc e: and then , uh , let 's see what else . oh , yes , i i wanted to have so sometimes a pers i uh in terms of like the continuity of thought for transcriptions , it 's i it is n't just words coming out , it 's like there 's some purpose for an utterance . and sometimes someone will do a backchannel in the middle of it but you wan na show that it 's continued at a later point . so i have i have a convention of putting like a dash arrow just to indicate that this person 's utterance continues . and then when it uh , catches back up again then there 's an arrow dash , and then you have the opposite direction to indicate continuation of ones own utterance versus , um , sometimes we had the situation which is you know , which you which you get in conversations , { comment } of someone continuing someone else 's utterance , phd b: mmm . postdoc e: and in that case i did a tilde arrow versus a arrow tilde , to indicate that it was continuation but it was n't oh , i guess i did equal arrow for the for the own for yourself things phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: cuz it 's the speakers the same . and then tilde arrow if it was a different if a different speaker , uh , con continuation . phd b: mmm . grad a: oh . postdoc e: but just , you know , the arrows showing continuation of a thought . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and then you could track whether it was the same speaker or not by knowing you know , at the end of this unit you 'd know what happened later . and that was like this person continued phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and you 'd be able to look for the continuation . grad a: so phd b: but the only time that becomes ambiguous is if you have two speakers . like , if you if you only have one person , if you only have one thought that 's continuing across a particular time boundary , you just need one arrow at each end , and if it 's picked up by a different speaker , it 's picked up by a different speaker . the time it becomes ambiguous if you have more than one speaker and that and they sort of swap . i guess if you have more than one thread going , then you then you need to know whether they were swapped or not . postdoc e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd c: how often does that happen do you think ? postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: hopefully not very much . postdoc e: yeah , i did n't use it very often . grad a: especially for meetings . i mean , if i if you were just recording someone 's day , it would be impossible . you know , undergrad d: it l ou grad a: if you were trying to do a remembrance agent . but i think for meetings it 's probably alright . phd c: hmm . grad a: but , a lot of these issues , i think that for uh , from my point of view , where i just wan na do speech recognition and information retrieval , it does n't really matter . phd b: sure . grad a: but other people have other interests . phd b: i know . grad a: so . phd b: but it it does feel it does feel like it 's really in there . i you know i did this i did this transcription and i marked that , i marked it with ellipsis because it seemed like there was a difference . it 's something you wanted to indicate that it that i this was the end of the phrase , this was the end of that particular transcript , but it was continued later . grad a: right . phd b: and i picked up with an ellipsis . postdoc e: excellent . yeah . phd b: i did n't have the equal , not equal thing . postdoc e: yeah . well that 's you know , i mean i that 's why i did n't { comment } i did n't do it n i mean , that 's why i thought about it , and and re - ev phd b: yeah , yeah . postdoc e: and it did n't do i did n't do it in ten times the the time . grad a: well , so anyway , are we interested then in writing tools to try to generate any of this stuff automatically ? postdoc e: yeah . grad a: is that something you want to do , dan ? phd b: no . grad a: no . phd b: but it 's something @ @ that i feel we definitely ought to do . postdoc e: i also wanted to ask you if you have a time estimate on the part that you transcribed . do you have a sense of how long phd b: yeah , it took me half an hour to transcribe a minute , but i did n't have any i did n't even have a postdoc e: ok . phd b: i was trying to get transcriber to run but i could n't . so i was doing it by typ typing into a text file and trying to fit it was horrible . postdoc e: ok . ok . undergrad d: so thirty to one 's what you got ? phd b: mm - hmm . undergrad d: so that 's a new upper limit ? phd b: yeah . postdoc e: well , i mean , that 's that 's because you did n't have the segmentation help and all the other grad a: but i think for a first try that 's about right . phd b: is it phd c: so so if we hired a who if we hired a whole bunch of dan 's undergrad d: that 's right . postdoc e: yeah . phd b: it was actually it was quite it was a t undergrad d: a grad a: if we hire an infinite number of dan 's phd b: it w undergrad d: it 'd b a a postdoc e: and there 's always a warm up thing of grad a: are we gon na run out of disk space by the way ? phd b: yeah . grad a: ok , phd b: no . grad a: good . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: d does n't it beep in the other room when you 're out of disk space ? phd c: so is there grad a: no . phd c: maybe we should s consider also , um , starting to build up a web site around all of these things . phd b: web site ! that 's great ! phd c: i know . grad a: dan 's sort of already started . phd b: we could have like business - to - business e - commerce as well ! phd c: that 's right . no , but i 'm it would be interesting it would be interesting to see grad a: can we sell banner ads ? undergrad d: get get paid for click - throughs ? grad a: what a good idea , phd b: yeah . grad a: that 's how we could pay for the transcription . phd c: i want to introduce i i want to introduce the word `` snot - head `` into the conversation at this point . phd b: we can have undergrad d: you wan na word that wo n't be recognized ? phd c: you see , cuz uh , cuz exactly . um . postdoc e: oh , i do n't think so . phd c: no . grad a: hey , what about me ? phd c: the r w what ok . postdoc e: you 're the one who raised the issue . phd c: no . alright , see here 's here 's here 's my thought behind it which is that , uh , the the stuff that you 've been describing , jane , i gu one has to , of course indicate , { comment } um , i is very interesting , postdoc e: alright . phd c: and i i 'd like to be able to to pore through , you know , the the types of tr conventions that you 've come up with and stuff like that . phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . phd c: so i would like to see that kind of stuff on the web . postdoc e: ok , now , w the alternative to a web site would be to put it in doctor speech . phd b: yes . yes . postdoc e: cuz cuz what i have is a soft link to my transcription that i have on my account phd c: either 's fine . phd b: we c postdoc e: but it does n't matter . grad a: we can do it all . phd b: we can do it all ! we can write postdoc e: ok . phd b: oh . postdoc e: web site 's nice . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: then you have to t you have to do an ht access . undergrad d: web site 's what ? phd b: we could actually maybe we could use the tcl plug - in . oh , man . postdoc e: ooo ! he 's committed himself to something . phd c: ow . see he said the word tcl and and that 's undergrad d: but he does such a good job of it . he should be allowed to to , you know , w do it . postdoc e: i know , i know . phd b: i know , but that but , i right . but i should be allowed to but undergrad d: if you just did a crappy job , no nobody would want you to do it . phd b: i sh i should n't be allowed to by m by my own by my according to my own priorities . alright . let 's look at it anyway . so definitely we should we should have some kind of access to the data . grad a: and we have we have quite a disparate number of web and other sorts of documents on this project sort of spread around . phd c: yeah . grad a: i have several and dan has a few , phd b: yes . grad a: and phd c: right , so we can add in links and stuff like that to other things . postdoc e: ah ! grad a: yep . postdoc e: nice . phd b: well , yeah . phd c: the phd b: well so then th grad a: try try to s consolidate . i mean , who wants to do that though ? phd b: the other side is , yeah . phd c: uh , right . grad a: no one wants to do that . so . postdoc e: yeah . phd b: right , that 's the problem . phd c: well , we could put we could put sort of a disorganized sort of group gestalt undergrad d: why ? what what 's what 's the issue ? phd b: no one owns the project . undergrad d: no one what ? phd b: no one owns the project . grad a: yeah , i own the project but i do n't wan na do it . phd b: no one wants to own the project . phd c: right . undergrad d: w well do but grad a: it 's mine ! all mine ! phd b: well then you have to do the web site . undergrad d: but grad a: `` wah - hah - hah - hah - hah - hah . `` phd b: you know , it 's like , it 's that simple . undergrad d: b but but but what are you what are you talking about for web site hacking ? phd b: no undergrad d: you 're talking about writing html , right ? grad a: yeah , i i 'm talking about putting together all the data in a form that that is legible , and pleasant to read , and up to date , and et cetera , et cetera , et cetera . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: but , is it against the law to actually use a tool to help your job go easier ? grad a: absolutely . it 's it 's absolutely against the law to use a tool . i have n't found any tools that i like . undergrad d: you y grad a: it 's just as easy to use to edit the raw html as anything else . undergrad d: no kidding ? phd b: that 's obviously not true , grad a: it 's obviously not true . phd b: but you have undergrad d: no , it it it 's obviously true that he has n't found any he likes . phd b: right . that 's true . undergrad d: the question is what is what 's he looked at . postdoc e: which one do you use jim ? undergrad d: i use something called trellix . postdoc e: oh , that 's right . i remember . yeah . undergrad d: and it postdoc e: which produces also site maps . grad a: now , i guess if i were if i were doing more powerful excuse me more complex web sites i might want to . undergrad d: it 's - it it 's very powerful . grad a: but most of the web sites i do are n't that complex . postdoc e: well , would this be to document it also for outside people or mainly for in house use ? grad a: but . i think both . phd c: no , i think in grad a: mostly in house . phd b: that 's right . phd c: i think mostly internal . undergrad d: well , yeah , postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: but what does internal mean ? phd b: no , both . undergrad d: i mean , you 're leaving . people at uw wan na look at it . i mean , it 's it 's internal { comment } until phd c: right . internal to the project . undergrad d: i see . postdoc e: we could do an ht access which would accommodate those things . phd b: i i i i grad a: ok , well , send me links and i wi send me pointers , rather , and i 'll put it together . phd b: i 'm not o postdoc e: wonderful . phd b: ok . i 'm not sure how how important that distinction is . i do n't think we should say , `` oh , it 's internal therefore we do n't have to make it very good `` . i mean , you can say `` oh oh , it 's internal phd c: no . no . phd b: therefore we can put data in it that we do n't we do n't have to worry about releasing `` . but i think the point is to try and be coherent and make it a nice presentation . undergrad d: right . i agree . postdoc e: yeah , it is true , that is it benefits to undergrad d: cuz you 're gon na have to wor do the work sooner or later . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: that 's right . i mean , it 's the early on . undergrad d: even if it 's just writing things up . grad a: yep . undergrad d: you know ? postdoc e: it 's a great idea . grad a: ok , um , let 's move on to electronics . phd b: ah . great . undergrad d: d we we out of tape out of disk ? phd b: no , we 're doing we 're doing great . undergrad d: i i was looking for the actual box i plan to use , uh , but i c all i could i could n't find it at the local store . but this is the the technology . it 's actually a little bit thinner than this . and it 's two by two , by one , and it would fit right under the right under th the the the the lip , grad a: yeah , does everyone know about the lip on the table ? it 's great . undergrad d: yeah . there 's a lip in these tables . postdoc e: nice . undergrad d: and , it oc i p especially brought the bottom along to try and generate some frequencies that you may not already have recorded . grad a: clink ! clink ! undergrad d: let 's see see what it does to the but this was the uh just just to review , and i also brought this { comment } along rather than the projector so we can put these on the table , and sort of w push them around . grad a: and and crinkle them and phd b: what ? postdoc e: and th `` that `` being a diagram . phd b: what ? undergrad d: that that 's the six tables that we 're looking at . these six tables here , with with little boxes sort of , uh , in the middle here . phd b: i see . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: which es would i mean , the the boxes are pretty much out of the way anyway . i 'll - i 'll show you the the cro this is the table cross section . i do n't know if people realize what they 're looking at . phd b: you trying to screw up the m the microphones ? grad a: yes . he is . absolutely . phd b: i mean th undergrad d: well why not ? i mean , cuz this is what 's gon na happen . you got plenty of data . i wo n't come to your next meeting . and and and you so this is the box 's grad a: get your paper off my pda ! phd b: yeah . postdoc e: yeah , let let the record show that this is exhibit two b . undergrad d: that 's right . `` or not to be `` . yeah , yeah . grad a: yeah . undergrad d: uh , the box , uh there 's a half inch lip here . the box is an inch thick so it hangs down a half an inch . and so the the two head set jacks would be in the front and then the little led to indicate that that box is live . the the important issue about the led is the fact that we 're talking about eight of these total , which would be sixteen channels . and , uh , even though we have sixteen channels back at the capture , they 're not all gon na be used for this . phd b: hmm . undergrad d: so there 'd be a subset of them used for obviously j just use the ones at this end for for this many . so excuse me . you 'd like a a way to tell whether your box is live , so the led would n't be on . phd b: right . all the lights . undergrad d: so if you 're plugged in it does n't work and the led is off that 's that 's a tip off . and then the , uh would wire the all of the cables in a in a bundle come through here and o obviously collect these cables at the same time . postdoc e: that 's good . undergrad d: uh , so this this notion of putting down the p z ms and taking them away would somehow have to be turned into leaving them on the table grad a: right . well , we wan na do that definitely . undergrad d: or or right . grad a: so . undergrad d: right . and so the you we just epoxy them down or something . big screw into the table . phd b: velcro . undergrad d: uh , and even though there 's eight cables they 're not really very big around so my model is to get a a a p piece of grad a: sleeve . undergrad d: yeah , that that stuff that people put with the little you slip the wires into that 's sort of shaped like that cross section . grad a: oh . ok , not just sleeve them all ? undergrad d: yeah . i 'm i 'm r a i 'm going up and then i 'm going down . grad a: and leave them loose ? phd b: no . postdoc e: that looks like a semi - circle . phd b: yeah . it 's like a it 's a sleeping policeman . grad a: whoo ! phd b: speed bump ! postdoc e: sleeping pol phd b: speed bump . grad a: speed a `` sleeping policeman `` ! undergrad d: yeah , it 's like a speed bum an postdoc e: speed bump . that 's good . there we go s grad a: cool . undergrad d: and they 're ac they 're actually ext extruded from plastic . phd c: what is undergrad d: they sorta look like this . grad a: oh . phd c: what does that mean ? phd b: that 's the s that 's british for speed bump , phd c: is it a speed bump ? undergrad d: so that the wires go through here . phd b: yeah . phd c: wow . postdoc e: oh , is that right ? phd b: yeah . postdoc e: i never heard that . grad a: that 's really cruel . undergrad d: so . postdoc e: ah ! grad a: ok , so that undergrad d: s so it would c basically go on the diagonal here . phd c: it could go either way . grad a: so why do we have sixteen channels instead of like some fewer number ? phd b: yeah . phd c: i guess . undergrad d: uh , because the phd b: how else are you gon na distribute them around the tables ? undergrad d: because they 're there . grad a: well , ok , let me rephrase that . why two each ? phd b: oh , because then you do n't have to just have one each . so that if t if you have two people sitting next to each other they can actually go into the same box . undergrad d: yeah . grad a: ok . undergrad d: and to see , thi this is really the way people sit on this table . th grad a: ok . postdoc e: mm - hmm . undergrad d: uh . dot , dot , dot . postdoc e: which means two at each station . undergrad d: well that that 's the way people sit . that 's how many chairs are in the room . postdoc e: yeah . grad a: alright . postdoc e: yeah , i 'm just saying that for the recording . undergrad d: yeah . grad a: right . undergrad d: right . grad a: ok . undergrad d: and certainly you could do a thing where all sixteen were plugged in . grad a: but then none of these . undergrad d: uh if if you ha if you had nothing else . grad a: right . n none of these and no p z ms then . undergrad d: yeah . right . right . i agree . phd b: only if you had well it depends on this box , right ? undergrad d: oh , true enough . and actually , at the m my plan is to only bring eight wires out of this box . phd b: exactly . grad a: oh , i did n't understand undergrad d: this this box thi - thi thi this box is a one off deal . postdoc e: that being the wiring box . grad a: oh , i see , i see . undergrad d: uh . and , uh , it 's function is to s to , uh , essentially a wire converter to go from these little blue wires to these black wires , plus supply power to the microphones cuz the the he the , uh , cheap head mounteds all require low voltage . grad a: so so you 'd imagine some sort of in some sort of patch panel on top to figure out what the mapping was between each d of these two and each of those one or what ? phd b: hmm ! undergrad d: well i w i i the simplest thing i could imagine , i which is really , really simple is to quite literally that these things plug in . and there 's a there 's a plug on the end of each of these these , uh , ei eight cables . postdoc e: what phd b: yeah . postdoc e: ok . each of the blue wires ? phd b: but there are only four . undergrad d: an - and there 's only there 's only four slots that are you know , in in the first version or the version we 're planning to to build . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . grad a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: so that that was the whole issue with the led , that you plug it in , the led comes on , and and and you 're live . grad a: oh , then it comes on . i see , i see . ok , good . undergrad d: now the the the subtle issue here is that tha i i have n't really figured out a solution for this . so , we it 'll have to be convention . what happens if somebody unplugs this because they plug in more of something else ? grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: well the there 's no clever way to let the up stream guys know that you 're really not being powered . so th there will be a certain amount of looking at cables has to be done if people , uh , rewire things . grad a: right . phd b: yeah , i mean , we i had that last time . undergrad d: but . phd b: but uh there are actually that you know , there 's an extra there 's a mix out on the radio receiver ? undergrad d: mm - hmm . phd b: so there are actually six xlr outs on the back of the radio receiver and only five cables going in , i had the wrong five , so i ended up not recording one of the channels and recording the mix . undergrad d: how interesting . d did you do any recognition on the mix mix out ? postdoc e: hmm . phd b: no . undergrad d: wonder whether it works any phd b: but i subtracted the four that i did have from the mix and got a pretty good approximation of the @ @ . undergrad d: got the fifth ? grad a: you g undergrad d: cool . postdoc e: oh , how great . grad a: and did it work ? phd b: yeah . grad a: did it sound good ? phd b: it 's not bad . undergrad d: is it is phd b: it 's not bad , grad a: wow . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: ai n't science wonderful ? postdoc e: that 's amazing . phd b: yeah . grad a: so what 's the schedule on these things ? undergrad d: so phd b: but , you always postdoc e: wow . undergrad d: uh , well i was wrestling with th with literally the w number of connectors in the cable and the the , uh , powering system . and i i was gon na do this very clever phantom power and i decided a couple days ago not to do it . phd b: hmm ! undergrad d: so i 'm ready to build it . which is to say , uh , the neighborhood of a week to get the circuit board done . grad a: mm - hmm . so i think the other thing i 'd like to do is , do something about the set up phd b: see grad a: so that it 's a little more presentable and organized . undergrad d: i agree . grad a: and i 'm i 'm just not sure what that is . i mean , some sort of cabinet . undergrad d: well i can build a cabinet . the the difficulty for this kind of project is the intellectual capital to design the cabinet . grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: in other words , to figure out ex exactly what the right thing is . that cabinet can can go away . we can use that for for uh kindling or something . but if you can imagine what the right form factor is . dan - dan and i have sort of gone around on this , and we were thinking about something that opened up in the top to allow access to the mixer for example . grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: but there 's these things sticking out of the mixer which are kind of a pain , so you end up with this thing that if if you stuck the mixer up here and the top opened , it 'd be it 'd be fine . you would n't necessarily well , you s understand what i 'm grad a: yeah , i understand . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: the the you can you can start start s sketching it out , grad a: so . undergrad d: and i can certainly build it out of oak no problem , would it you know , arb you know , arbitrarily amount of grad a: i need a desk at home too , alright ? is that gon na be a better solution than just going out and buy one ? undergrad d: well , the as we found out with the the thing that , uh , jeff bought a long time ago to hold our stereo system the stuff you buy is total crap . and i mean this is something you buy . grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: and and grad a: and it 's total crap . undergrad d: it 's total crap . well , it 's useless for this function . works fine for holding a kleenex , grad a: right , kleenex and telephones . undergrad d: but it right . grad a: um , so yeah , i g i guess it 's just a question , is that something you wan na spend your time on ? undergrad d: oh , i i 'm paid for . grad a: ok , great . undergrad d: i have no problem . no , but w certainly one of the issues is is the , uh is security . grad a: hmm ? mm - hmm . undergrad d: i mean , we 've been been been lax and lucky . grad a: lax . phd b: yeah . yep . undergrad d: really lucky with these things . but they 're not ours , so phd b: yeah . undergrad d: the , uh the flat panels . phd b: oh , yeah ! grad a: i 'm telling you , i 'm just gon na cart one of them away if they stay there much longer . phd b: well w yeah , exactly . undergrad d: uh , let the record show at uh at f four thirty - five adam janin says postdoc e: wow . tempting . phd b: we 'll know we 'll know to come after . postdoc e: tempting . yeah . grad a: so , um , j uh , then the other question is do we wan na try to do a user interface that 's available out here ? phd b: sorry ? undergrad d: slipped almost slipped it by dan . postdoc e: use - user interface grad a: a user interface . i mean , do we wan na try to get a monitor ? or just something . phd b: oh ! sure . postdoc e: oh . phd b: well of course we do . grad a: and how do we want to do that ? postdoc e: you mean like see see meter readings , from while sitting here . grad a: j just so we see something . postdoc e: wow . undergrad d: how about use the thing that um aciri 's doing . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: which is to say just laptop with a wireless . phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . sure . postdoc e: oh . phd b: which we 'll borrow from them , when we need it . undergrad d: what 's wrong with yours ? if we bought you a a phd b: oh , a applecard . sure . right . yeah , you could use my machine . phd c: well undergrad d: what ? grad a: i have an iram machine i 've borrowed and we can use it . phd b: i or the undergrad d: n no , i 'm i 'm i 'm serious . does does the wireless thing work on your grad a: wait , is n't that an ethernet connection or is that a phone ? phd b: uh , that 's an ethernet connection . grad a: well phd b: it 's going next door . undergrad d: yeah no no i 'm a i i i ai n't joking here . grad a: we jus undergrad d: i 'm serious , that that it it phd b: yeah . no , no , absolutely , that 's the right way to do it . t to have it uh , just undergrad d: it 's very convenient especially if dan happens to be sitting at that end of the table to not have to run down here and and look in the thing every so often , phd b: yeah . and given given that we 've got a wireless that we 've got a we got the field . undergrad d: but just have the it 's right there . phd b: right . undergrad d: right ? the antenna 's right there , grad a: right . phd b: yeah . yeah . undergrad d: right outside the phd b: i do n't know . undergrad d: y i mean , we need obviously need to clear this with aciri but , uh , how tough can that be ? there it you 'd all you need 's web access , is n't it ? phd b: w we do n't need x access undergrad d: in in theory . phd b: but i mean that 's fine . that 's that 's what it does , undergrad d: ok , phd b: yeah . undergrad d: great , great . grad a: um , phd b: so grad a: right , so it 's just a question of getting a laptop and a wireless modem . phd b: with a with a with a w undergrad d: no , and he he had , reque @ @ my my proposal is you have a laptop . phd b: no . yeah . i do ! undergrad d: you do n't ? phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah . undergrad d: if if we bought you the thing would you mind using it with i the the phd b: no , i would love to but i 'm not sure if my laptop is compatible with the wave lan thing they 're using . undergrad d: really ? grad a: to mac . phd b: well apple has their own thing , right ? phd c: he 's undergrad d: your new one ? grad a: airport . undergrad d: i 'm sorry ? phd b: apple has their own thing . and undergrad d: i thought it just came through a serial p or an ethernet port . phd b: yeah , i think what i think you i think it just plug plugs in a pc card , so you could probably make it run with that , but . grad a: the question is , is there an apple driver ? undergrad d: i e phd b: yeah , i 'm sure . i imagine there is . but uh anyway there are there are abs there are a bunch of machines at icsi that have those cards undergrad d: but the two t phd b: and so i think if w if it does n't we should be able to find a machine that does that . i i mean i know that does n't do n't do n't the important people have those little blue vaios that undergrad d: well , uh , b that to me that 's a whole nother . that 's a whole nother issue . postdoc e: hmm . hmm . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: the the idea of con convincing them that we should use their network i is fairly straight forward . phd b: yeah . yeah . undergrad d: the idea of being able to walk into their office and say , `` oh , can i borrow your machine for a while `` , is is is a non - starter . phd b: yeah . i see . undergrad d: that i i do n't think that 's gon na work . so , i mean , either either we figure out how to use a machine somebody already in the group already owns , a a and the idea is that if it 's it perk , you know , it 's an advantage not not a disadvan { comment } or else we we literally buy a machine e exactly for that purpose . phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah . absolutely . yeah . undergrad d: certainly it solves a lot of the problems with leaving a monitor out here all the time . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: i i i i 'm i 'm not a big fan of doing things to the room that make the room less attractive for other people , grad a: right . undergrad d: right ? which is part of the reason for getting all this stuff out of the way grad a: yeah . undergrad d: and and , so a monitor sitting here all the time you know people are gon na walk up to it and go , `` how come i ca n't get , you know , pong on this `` or , whatev grad a: mm - hmm . right . i 've i 've borrowed the iram vaio sony thingy , phd c: well grad a: and i do n't think they 're ever gon na want it back . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: right . phd b: you 're kidding ! undergrad d: well , the next conference they will . grad a: so . sure . undergrad d: yeah . grad a: but that does mean so we can use that as well . undergrad d: well , uh , the certainly , u you should give it a shot first see whether you you can get compatible stuff . phd b: mm - hmm . undergrad d: uh , ask them what it costs . ask them if they have an extra one . who knows , they might have an extra hardware s phd b: i 'd trade them a flat panel display for it . yeah . phd c: what is the , um , projector supposed to be hooked up to ? undergrad d: good . uh , the , uh tsk . it 's gon na be hooked up to all sorts of junk . there 's gon na be actually a a plug at the front that 'll connect to people 's laptops so you can walk in and plug it in . and it 's gon na be con connected to the machine at the back . so we certainly could use that as as a constant reminder of what the vu meters are doing . phd b: huge vu meters . undergrad d: so people sitting here { comment } are going `` testing , one , two , three `` ! phd c: but i mean , that 's another that 's another possibility that , you know , solves undergrad d: it a phd b: yeah . undergrad d: yeah . phd b: that 's an end undergrad d: but but but i think the idea of having a control panel it 's that 's there in front of you is really cool . phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: i think and uh , having having it on wireless is is the neatest way neatest way to do it . undergrad d: r grad a: i had undergrad d: as long as you d as l as long as you 're not tempted to sit there and f keep fiddling with the volume controls going , `` can you talk a bit louder ? `` phd b: yeah . grad a: i had actually earlier asked if i could borrow one of the cards to do wireless stuff phd b: yeah . grad a: and they said , `` sure , whenever you want `` . so i think it wo n't be a problem . phd b: oh , cool . ok . undergrad d: and and it 's a a pcmcia card , right ? grad a: yep . undergrad d: pc card , grad a: pc card . undergrad d: so you can have a slot , phd b: yeah , yeah . undergrad d: right ? in your new machine ? phd c: it 's it really come down to the driver . undergrad d: is it with s phd b: yeah . phd c: i mean grad a: right , i mean , and if and if his does n't work , as i said , we can use the pc . undergrad d: right , i it 'll it 'll work it 'll work the first time . i i trust steve jobs . grad a: good . phd b: um , grad a: so phd b: well , that sounds like a d good solution one way or the other . grad a: so jim is gon na be doing wiring and you 're gon na give some thought to cabinets ? undergrad d: uh , y yeah . grad a: great . undergrad d: we we need to figure out what we want . uh phd b: we 'd i think undergrad d: hey , what are those green lights doing ? grad a: they 're flashing ! phd b: uh - oh ! uh - oh ! does that it means it means it 's gon na explode . no . undergrad d: cut the red wire , the red wire ! phd b: um grad a: when people talk , it they go on and off . phd b: this so again , washington wants to equip a system . our system , we spent ten thousand dollars on equipment not including the pc . however , seven and a half thousand of that was the wireless mikes . uh , undergrad d: mm - hmm . phd b: using using these undergrad d: and it and the f the five thousand for the wires , so if i 'm gon na do no . phd b: yeah , undergrad d: it 's a joke . phd b: that 's true undergrad d: i have to do phd b: but we have n't spent that , right ? but once we once we 've done the intellectual part of these , uh , we can just knock them out , right ? grad a: cheap . phd b: we can start we you can make a hundred of them or something . undergrad d: oh , of the of the boards ? yeah , yeah , sure , right . phd b: and then we could washington could have a system that did n't have any wireless but would had what 's based on these undergrad d: mm - hmm . phd b: and it would cost grad a: a pc and a peanuts . undergrad d: peanuts . phd b: pc and two thousand dollars for the a - to - d stuff . grad a: yeah . phd b: and that 's about cuz you would n't even need the mixer if you did n't have the oh th the p z undergrad d: right . phd b: p z ms cost a lot . but anyway you 'd save , on the seven seven or eight thousand for the for the wireless system . so actually that might be attractive . undergrad d: right . grad a: good . phd b: ok , i can move my thumb now . postdoc e: that 's a great idea . undergrad d: what ? postdoc e: it 's nice it 's nice to be thinking toward that . undergrad d: oh , i thought like if we talked softer the disk lasts longer . grad a: well , actually shorten phd b: yeah . grad a: there 's a speech compression program that works great on things like this , cuz if the dynamic range is low it encodes it with fewer bits . and so most of the time no one 's talking so it shortens it dramatically . but if you talk quieter , the dynamic range is lower and it will compress better . so . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: oh . hmm . undergrad d: it also helps if you talk in a monotone . grad a: probably . undergrad d: constant volume all the time . postdoc e: oh , interesting . and shorter words . grad a: shorter words . phd c: now , shorter words would n't would induce more dynamics , right ? you want to have phd b: yeah , but if the words are more predictable . grad a: how about if you just go `` uh `` ? phd c: huh . undergrad d: uh . postdoc e: that 's a long word ! grad a: how do you spell that ? postdoc e: i do n't know . grad a: ok , can you do one more round of digits ? are we done talking ? undergrad d: well it 's a choice if we get a choice , let 's keep talking . grad a: do we have more to talk about ? undergrad d: sure . no , i 'm done . phd c: i 'm done . grad a: are you done ? postdoc e: i 'm done , grad a: i 'm done . postdoc e: yeah . phd c: dan is n't but he 's not gon na say anything . undergrad d: but you you you there 's a problem a structural problem with this though . you really need an incentive at the end if you 're gon na do digits again . like , you know , candy bars or something , grad a: i 'll i 'll remember to bring m and m 's next time . undergrad d: or or or or or a little , uh you know , toothbrushes like they give you at the d dentist . phd b: mmm ! postdoc e: or both . undergrad d: or both . phd b: sorry . undergrad d: eric , you and i win . we did n't make any mistakes . grad a: it 's harder at the end than at the beginning . postdoc e: we do n't know that for sure , do we ? grad a: i should have mentioned that s uh , to pause between lines but undergrad d: no , i know . i 'm just giving you a hard time . grad a: it 's it 's only a hard time for the transcriber not for the speech recognizer . phd b: tha - tha postdoc e: but i also think you said channel four grad a: me . postdoc e: and i think you meant microphone four . and i think that 's a mistake . undergrad d: very good . so eric , you win . but the other thing is that there 's a there 's a colon for transcripts . and there should n't be a colon . because see , everything else is stuff you fill in . phd b: yeah , that 's been filled in for you . undergrad d: right ? automatically . phd b: but they 're in order ! undergrad d: but real phd b: they start , six , seven , eight , nine , zero , one , two , three , four , five , six , eight , nine . undergrad d: where 'd they come from ? phd b: and they 're in order because they 're sorted lexically by the file names , which are have the numbers in digits . postdoc e: oh . phd b: and so they 're actually this is like all the all utterances that were generated by speaker mpj or something . postdoc e: oh . phd b: and then within mpj they 're sorted by what he actually said . grad a: ugh ! i did n't know that . i should have randomized it . postdoc e: wow . phd b: it does n't matter ! it 's like cuz you said `` six , seven , eight `` . undergrad d: well , we think it does n't matter . phd b: we think it does n't matter . if i if not i undergrad d: but the real question i have is that , why bother with these ? postdoc e: oh , interesting . undergrad d: why do n't you just ask people to repeat numbers they already know ? like phone numbers , you know , social security numbers . phd b: cuz we have these writt written down , right ? grad a: because right . phd b: that 's why grad a: if we have it , uh undergrad d: i know . postdoc e: social security numbers . undergrad d: i kn grad a: we do n't have to transcribe . phd b: you can you can generate postdoc e: bank account numbers . undergrad d: credit card numbers , grad a: we do n't have to tran undergrad d: yeah . grad a: yeah , please . phd b: yeah . that 's a great idea . postdoc e: passport numbers . undergrad d: yeah , so you just say say your credit card numbers , say your phone numbers , say your mother 's maiden name . grad a: bet we could do it . undergrad d: you know pe postdoc e: password to your account . undergrad d: people off the street . postdoc e: go on . undergrad d: this grad a: actually , this i got this directly from another training set , from aurora . phd b: alright . grad a: so . we can compare directly . phd b: looks good . looks like there were no errors . postdoc e: i was i the reason i made my mistake was grad a: what ? postdoc e: wa - was this ? phd b: there were no there were no direct driver errors , by the look of it , which is good . grad a: great . postdoc e: good news . grad a: ok , the mike 's off . phd b: so i 'm gon na stop it . yeah , ok . postdoc e: ok . grad a: thank you all . undergrad d: mony on the mike . phd b: uh - oh .

the team was thinking about the best way to incorporate the recording infrastructure in the room . they considered putting tapes in the lip of the table and leds to indicate the channel was live . the team also discussed power issues

what did the team think about power cables ? </s> grad a: ok , this is one channel . can you uh , say your name and talk into your mike one at a time ? phd c: this is eric on channel three , i believe . grad a: ok . uh , i do n't think it 's on there , jane . undergrad d: tasting one two three , tasting . postdoc e: ok , this is jane on channel five . grad a: uh , i still do n't see you jane . postdoc e: oh , darn , what am i doing wrong ? undergrad d: can you see me on channel four ? really ? grad a: yeah , i s undergrad d: my lucky day . postdoc e: uh , screen no , it is , oh , maybe it just warmed up ? grad a: no . postdoc e: oh , darn , can you ca n't see channel five yet ? grad a: uh , well , the mike is n't close enough to your mouth , so . postdoc e: oh , this would be k ok , is that better ? grad a: s uh , try speaking loudly , undergrad d: i like the high quality labelling . grad a: so , postdoc e: hello , grad a: ok , good . undergrad d: david , can we borrow your labelling machine to improve the quality of the labelling a little bit here ? postdoc e: hello . alright . grad a: thank you . phd b: one t undergrad d: how how many are there , one to five ? phd b: one five , yeah . undergrad d: yeah , please . postdoc e: would you like to join the meeting ? grad a: well , we do n't wan na renumber them , postdoc e: i bet grad a: cuz we 've already have like , forms filled out with the numbers on them . so , let 's keep the same numbers on them . phd b: yeah , ok , that 's a good idea . grad a: ok , dan , are you on ? phd b: i 'm on i 'm on two and i should be on . grad a: good . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: want to join the meeting , dave ? do we do do we have a spare , uh grad a: and i 'm getting lots of responses on different ones , so i assume the various and assorted p z ms are on . undergrad d: we ' r we 're we ' r this is this this is a meeting meeting . postdoc e: this is abou we 're we 're mainly being taped but we 're gon na talk about , uh , transcription for the m future meeting meetings . grad a: stuff . yeah , this is not something you need to attend . so . postdoc e: yeah . e ok . phd c: you 're always having one of those days , dave . postdoc e: y you 'd be welcome . grad a: besides , i do n't want anyone who has a weird accent . postdoc e: you 'd be welcome . grad a: right , dan ? undergrad d: so , i do n't understand if it 's neck mounted you do n't get very good performance . phd c: it 's not neck mounted . it 's supposed to be h head mounted . undergrad d: yeah . it it should be head mounted . right ? grad a: well , then put it on your head . phd b: i do n't know . phd c: right . grad a: what are you doing ? undergrad d: cuz when you do this , you can rouww - rouww . postdoc e: why did n't i you were saying that but i could hear you really well on the on the transcription on the , uh , tape . grad a: well , i m i would prefer that people wore it on their head phd b: i i do n't know . phd c: i grad a: but they were complaining about it . because it 's not it does n't go over the ears . undergrad d: why ? postdoc e: it 's badly designed . grad a: it 's very badly designed so it 's phd b: it 's very badly designed ? undergrad d: what do you mean it does n't go over the ears ? phd b: why ? it 's not s it 's not supposed to cover up your ears . grad a: yeah but , there 's nowhere to put the pad so it 's comfortable . phd b: i mean , it 's only badly postdoc e: so that 's what you 're d he 's got it on his temples so it cuts off his circulation . phd b: oh , that 's strange . phd c: yeah , that 's that 's what i have . grad a: and it feels so good that way . phd c: it feels so good when i stop . grad a: so i i again would like to do some digits . undergrad d: somebody wan na postdoc e: try it . grad a: um . undergrad d: somebody wan na close the door ? grad a: sure . phd b: ok . postdoc e: we could do it with noise . grad a: so let me phd c: you 're always doing digits . grad a: well , you know , i 'm just that sort of digit - y g sorta guy . ok . so this is adam . postdoc e: uh , this is the same one i had before . grad a: i doubt it . phd b: it 's still the same words . grad a: i think we 're session four by the way . or m it might be five . undergrad d: psss ! oh , that 's good . postdoc e: no grad a: i did n't bring my previous thing . phd b: we did n't postdoc e: now , just to be sure , the numbers on the back , this is the channel ? phd b: that 's the microphone number . postdoc e: that 's the microphone number . grad a: yeah , d leave the channel blank . postdoc e: uh - oh . ok , good . undergrad d: but number has to be ? so we have to look up the number . postdoc e: five grad a: right . undergrad d: ok , good . postdoc e: good . ok . well , this is jane , on mike number five . um . i just start ? do i need to say anything more ? grad a: uh , transcript number . phd b: transcript number phd c: ok , this is eric on microphone number three , undergrad d: this is beck on mike four . grad a: thanks . should i turn off the vu meter dan ? do you think that makes any difference ? phd b: oh , god . no , let me do it . grad a: why ? are you gon na do something other than hit `` quit `` ? phd b: no , but i 'm gon na look at the uh , logs as well . grad a: oh . should have done it before . postdoc e: uh , you said turn off the what ? grad a: the vu meter which tells you what the levels on the various mikes are and there was one hypothesis that perhaps that the act of recording the vu meter was one of the things that contributed to the errors . postdoc e: oh . oh , i see . undergrad d: yeah , but eric , uh , you did n't think that was a reasonable hypothesis , right ? postdoc e: i see . grad a: that was me , undergrad d: oh , i 'm sorry y grad a: i thought that was undergrad d: that was malarkey . grad a: well , the only reason that could be is if the driver has a bug . right ? because the machine just is n't very heavily loaded . undergrad d: no chance of that . grad a: no chance of that . just because it 's beta . look ok ? phd b: yeah , there there there was there was a there was a bug . there was a glitch last time we ran . undergrad d: are - are yo are you recording where the table mikes are by the way ? phd b: no . undergrad d: do you know which channels grad a: yeah , we usually do that . phd b: no , we do n't . grad a: yeah . phd b: but we we ought to st we ought to standardize . undergrad d: why not ? phd b: i think , uh , i s i spoke to somebody , morgan , { comment } about that . i think i think we should put mar well , no , w we can do that . undergrad d: why do n't you just do this ? grad a: i mean , that 's what we 've done before . phd b: i know what they they 're they 're four , three , two , one . in order now . undergrad d: four . phd b: three , two , and one . undergrad d: three . phd b: but i think i think we should put them in standard positions . i think we should make little marks on the table top . grad a: which means we need to move this thing , and sorta decide how we 're actually going to do things . phd b: so that we can put them postdoc e: oh , ok . phd b: i guess that 's the point . grad a: so . phd b: it 'll be a lot easier if we have a if we have them permanently in place or something like that . grad a: right . postdoc e: i do wish there were big booms coming down from the ceiling . phd b: you do ? postdoc e: yeah . phd c: would it make you feel more important ? grad a: mmm . postdoc e: yeah , yeah , yeah . phd c: i see . undergrad d: wait till the projector gets installed . postdoc e: you know . grad a: that 'll work . postdoc e: oh , that 'll be good . grad a: that 'll work . phd b: oh , gosh . undergrad d: cuz it 's gon na hang down , make noise . postdoc e: ok . phd b: when 's it gon na be installed ? postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: well , it depends on phd b: i see . undergrad d: is this b is this being recorded ? grad a: that 's right . undergrad d: uh , i think lila actually is almost getting r pretty close to even getting ready to put out the purchase order . phd b: ok . cool . undergrad d: i handed it off to her about a month ago . phd b: i see . grad a: ok , so , topic of this meeting is i wan na talk a little bit about transcription . um , i 've looked a little bit into commercial transcription services and jane has been working on doing transcription . uh , and so we wan wan na decide what we 're gon na do with that and then get an update on the electronics , and then , uh , maybe also talk a little bit about some infrastructure and tools , and so on . um , you know , eventually we 're probably gon na wan na distribute this thing and we should decide how we 're gon na how we 're gon na handle some of these factors . so . phd b: distribute what ? grad a: hmm ? phd b: the data ? grad a: right . right . i mean , so we 're we 're collecting a corpus and i think it 's gon na be generally useful . i mean , it seems like it 's not a corpus which is uh , has been done before . and so i think people will be interested in having having it , phd b: oh . grad a: and so we will undergrad d: u using , like , audio d v ds or something like that ? grad a: excuse me ? phd b: yes . undergrad d: audio d v grad a: well , or something . yeah , audio d v c ds , undergrad d: or t grad a: you know . undergrad d: yeah . tapes . grad a: and and so how we do we distribute the transcripts , how do we distribute the audio files , how do we how do we just do all that infrastructure ? phd c: well , i think i mean , for that particular issue ther there are known sources where people go to to find these kind of things like the ldc for instance . postdoc e: yeah , grad a: right , but but so should we do it in the same format as ldc postdoc e: that 's right . grad a: and what does that mean to what we 've done already ? phd b: right . the it 's not so much the actu the logistics of distribution are secondary to preparing the data in a suitable form for distribution . phd c: right . grad a: right . so , uh , as it is , it 's sort of a ad - hoc combination of stuff dan set and stuff i set up , which we may wan na make a little more formal . so . phd b: and the other thing is that , um , university of washington may want to start recording meetings as well , grad a: right . phd b: in which case w w we 'll have to decide what we 've actually got so that we can give them a copy . grad a: that 's right . undergrad d: a field trip . grad a: yeah . i was actually thinking i would n't mind spending the summer up there . that would be kind of fun . phd b: oh , really ? grad a: yeah . visit my friends and spend some time phd b: different for you . yes . grad a: well , and then also i have a bunch of stuff for doing this digits . so i have a bunch of scripts with x waves , and some perl scripts , and other things that make it really easy to extract out and align where the digits are . and if u d uw 's going to do the same thing i think it 's worth while for them to do these digits tasks as well . undergrad d: mm - hmm . grad a: and what i 've done is pretty ad - hoc , um , so we might wan na change it over to something a little more standard . phd c: hmm . grad a: you know , stm files , or xml , or something . undergrad d: an - and there 's interest up there ? grad a: what 's that ? undergrad d: there 's interest up there ? grad a: well they they certainly wan na collect more data . and so they 're applying , i think i b is that right ? something like that . phd b: i do n't know . grad a: um , for some more money to do more data . so we were planning to do like thirty or forty hours worth of meetings . they wan na do an additional hundred or so hours . so , they want a very large data set . um , but of course we 're not gon na do that if we do n't get money . so . phd b: i see . grad a: and i would like that just to get a disjoint speaker set and a disjoint room . i mean , one of the things morgan and i were talking about is we 're gon na get to know this room really well , phd c: mm - hmm . grad a: the the acoustics of this room . phd b: all about that . undergrad d: including the fan . grad a: including the fan . undergrad d: did you notice the fan difference ? phd b: oh , now you 've touched the fan control , now all our data 's gon na be undergrad d: hear the difference ? grad a: oh , it 's enormous . phd b: yeah , it 's great . postdoc e: oh , that 's better . undergrad d: do you wan na leave it off or not ? postdoc e: that 's better . grad a: all the others have been on . phd b: that 's undergrad d: yeah , the you sure ? phd b: oh , yeah . grad a: y absolut phd b: absolutely . undergrad d: you you think that grad a: yeah . undergrad d: things after the f then this fan 's wired backwards by the way . uh , i think this is high speed here . postdoc e: yeah , it 's noticeable . undergrad d: well , not clear . phd b: well it 's well like `` low `` is mid mid - scale . undergrad d: maybe it maybe it is n't . phd b: so it could be that it 's not actually wired backwards undergrad d: that 's right . phd b: it 's just that ambiguous . undergrad d: i was wondering also , get ready . { comment } whether the lights made any noise . postdoc e: uh - huh . grad a: there 's definitely yep . phd b: oh , they do . phd c: yeah , a little bit . phd b: yeah . grad a: high pitch hum . wow . undergrad d: so , do our meetings in the dark with no air conditioning in the future . grad a: yeah , just get a variety . postdoc e: i think candles would be nice if they do n't make noise . grad a: they 're very good . phd b: oh , yeah . phd c: it would you know , it would real really mean that we should do short meetings when you turn off the { comment } turn off the air conditioning , grad a: carbon monoxide poisoning ? undergrad d: short meetings , that 's right . or yeah , sort of { comment } r r phd c: got to finish this meeting . undergrad d: tear t tear your clothing off to stay cool . phd c: that 's right . undergrad d: actually , the a th air the air conditioning 's still working , that 's just an auxiliary fan . phd c: right , i see . grad a: so phd c: so , um , in addition to this issue about the uw stuff there was announced today , uh , via the ldc , um , a corpus from i believe santa barbara . postdoc e: yeah , i saw it . i 've been watching for that corpus . phd c: um , of general spoken english . postdoc e: yeah . yep . phd c: and i do n't know exactly how they recorded it but apparently there 's a lot of different styles of speech and what not . grad a: mm - hmm . phd c: and postdoc e: they had people come in to a certain degree and they and they have dat recorders . phd c: i see . so it is sort of far field stuff . right ? postdoc e: i i assume so , actually , i had n't thought about that . unless they added close field later on but , um , i 've listened to some of those data and i , um , i 've been i i was actually on the advisory board for when they set the project up . grad a: mm - hmm . phd c: oh , ok . phd b: what 's it sound like ? postdoc e: i 'm glad to see that it got released . grad a: yeah , i i wish postdoc e: so it it 's a very nice thing . grad a: i wish we had someone here working on adaptation phd c: s grad a: because it would nice to be able to take that stuff and adapt it to a meeting setting . you know phd c: but it may be it may be useful in postdoc e: how do you mean do you mean mechanical adaptation or grad a: no , software , to adapt the speech recognition . postdoc e: ok . phd c: well , what i was thinking is it may be useful in transcribing , if it 's far field stuff , grad a: mm - hmm . phd c: right ? in doing , um , some of our first automatic speech recognition models , it may be useful to have that kind of data postdoc e: great idea . phd c: because that 's very different than any kind of data that we have so far . grad a: that 's true . postdoc e: and and their recording conditions are really clean . i mean , i 've i 've heard i 've listened to the data . grad a: well that 's not good , right ? phd c: that 's that 's not great . postdoc e: it sounds undergrad d: tr postdoc e: well but what i mean is that , um undergrad d: but far field means great distance ? i mean grad a: just these . undergrad d: not head mounted ? phd b: yeah . undergrad d: and so that 's why they 're getting away with just two channels or something , or are they using multiple dats ? postdoc e: um , oh , good question and i ca n't ans answer it . grad a: well we can look into it . postdoc e: i do n't know . phd c: no , and their web their web page did n't answer it either . so i 'm , i uh , was thinking that we should contact them . postdoc e: ok . phd c: so it 's that 's sort of a beside - the - point point . but . grad a: so we can get that just with , uh , media costs , undergrad d: still a point . phd c: right . grad a: is that right ? phd c: uh , in fact we get it for free grad a: oh . phd c: cuz they 're distributing it through the ldc . grad a: great . postdoc e: yep . grad a: so that would be yeah , that would be something to look into . so . phd c: so , i can i can actually arrange for it to arrive in short order if we 're postdoc e: the other thing too is from from a grad a: well , it 's silly to do unless we 're gon na have someone to work on it , so maybe we need to think about it a little bit . phd c: huh . postdoc e: the other thing too is that their their jus their transcription format is really nice and simple in in the discourse domain . but they also mentioned that they have it time aligned . i mean , i s i i saw that write - up . phd c: yeah . maybe we should maybe we should get a copy of it just to see what they did phd b: yeah , absolutely . grad a: yeah . phd c: so so that we can we can compare . postdoc e: it 's very nice . grad a: ok , why do n't you go ahead and do that then eric ? phd b: absolutely . phd c: alright , i 'll do that . i ca n't remember the name of the corpus . it 's corps - s postdoc e: csae . phd c: s postdoc e: corpus of spoken american english . phd c: right , ok . postdoc e: yeah , sp i 've been i was really pleased to see that . i knew that they they had had some funding problems in completing it phd b: uh - huh . phd c: yeah . postdoc e: but , um , phd c: well they 're postdoc e: this is clever . phd c: apparently this was like phase one postdoc e: got it through the ldc . phd c: and the there 's still more that they 're gon na do apparently or something like that unless of course they have funding issues postdoc e: great . great . phd c: and then then it ma they may not do phase two but from all the web documentation it looked like , `` oh , this is phase one `` , whatever that means . postdoc e: super . super . great . yeah , that i mean , they 're really well respected in the linguistics d side too and the discourse area , phd c: ok . postdoc e: and so this is a very good corpus . phd c: but , it uh it would also maybe help be helpful for liz , if she wanted to start working on some discourse issues , you know , looking at some of this data and then , grad a: right . phd c: you know so when she gets here maybe that might be a good thing for her . grad a: actually , that 's another thing i was thinking about is that maybe jane should talk to liz , to see if there are any transcription issues related to discourse that she needs to get marked . postdoc e: ok . phd c: maybe we should have a big meeting meeting . phd b: sure , of course . undergrad d: that would be a meeting meeting meeting ? grad a: a meeting meeting meeting . phd c: yeah . grad a: well this is the meeting about the meeting meeting meeting . so . phd c: oh . grad a: um . phd c: right . but maybe we should , uh find some day that liz uh , liz and andreas seem to be around more often . grad a: mm - hmm . phd c: so maybe we should find a day when they 're gon na be here and and morgan 's gon na be here , and we can meet , at least this subgroup . i mean , not necessarily have the u - dub people down . grad a: well , i was even thinking that maybe we need to at least ping the u - dub to see phd c: we need we need to talk to them some more . grad a: you know , say `` this is what we 're thinking about for our transcription `` , if nothing else . so , well w shall we move on and talk a little bit about transcription then ? phd b: mm - hmm . let 's . phd c: yeah . grad a: ok , so { comment } since that 's what we 're talking about . what we 're using right now is a tool , um , from this french group , called `` transcriber `` that seems to work very well . um , so it has a , uh , nice useful tcl - tk user interface and , uh , undergrad d: thi - this is the process of converting audio to text ? grad a: right . undergrad d: and this requires humans just like the the stp stuff . grad a: yes , yeah . right , right . so we 're we 're at this point only looking for word level . so all all so what you have to do is just identify a segment of speech in time , and then write down what was said within it , and identify the speaker . and so the things we that we know that i know i want are the text , the start and end , and the speaker . but other people are interested in for example stress marking . and so jane is doing primary stress , um , stress marks as well . um , and then things like repairs , and false starts , and , filled pauses , and all that other sort of stuff , we have to decide how much of that we wan na do . postdoc e: i did include a glo { comment } uh , a certain first pass . my my view on it was when you have a repair then , uh it seems i mean , we saw , there was this presentation in the one of the speech group meetings about how grad a: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and i think liz has done some stuff too on that , that it , uh that you get it bracketed in terms of like well , if it 's parenthetical , which i know that liz has worked on , then uh y y you 'll have different prosodic aspects . grad a: mm - hmm . phd b: hmm . postdoc e: and then also if it 's a r if it 's a repair where they 're like what i just did , then it 's nice to have sort of a sense of the continuity of the utterance , the start to be to the finish . and , uh , it 's a little bit deceptive if you include the repai the pre - repair part and sometimes or of it 's in the middle . anyway , so what i was doing was bracketing them to indicate that they were repairs which is n't uh , very time - consuming . grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: i is there already some sort of plan in place for how this gon na be staffed or done ? or is it real is that what we 're talking about here ? grad a: well , that 's part of the thing we 're talking about . so what we wanted to do was have jane do basically one meeting 's worth , you know , forty minutes to an hour , postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad a: and postdoc e: as a pilot study . undergrad d: yourself ? grad a: yeah . undergrad d: it this is this is like five times real time or ten times real time postdoc e: yeah , as a pilot study . grad a: ten times about , is and so one of the things was to get an estimate of how long it would take , and then also what tools we would use . and so the next decision which has to be made actually pretty soon is how are we gon na do it ? so . undergrad d: and so you make jane do the first one so then she can decide , oh , we do n't need all this stuff , just the words are fine . postdoc e: that 's right , that 's right . phd b: that 's right . postdoc e: i wan na hear about these uh , we have a g you were s continuing with the transcription conventions for s grad a: r right , so so one one option is to get linguistics grad students and undergrads to do it . and apparently that 's happened in the past . and i think that 's probably the right way to do it . um , it will require a post pass , i mean people will have to look at it more than once to make sure that it 's been done correctly , but i just ca n't imagine that we 're gon na get anything that much better from a commercial one . and the commercial ones i 'm sure will be much more expensive . undergrad d: ca n't we get joy to do it all ? grad a: yeah right . postdoc e: no , that 's grad a: we will just get joy and jane to do everything . undergrad d: is tha was n't that what she was doing before ? yeah , that 's right . grad a: but , you know , that 's what we 're talking about is getting some slaves who who need money undergrad d: right . grad a: and , uh , duh , again o postdoc e: i object to that characterization ! phd b: oh , really . grad a: i meant joy . and so again , i have to say `` are we recording `` postdoc e: oh , thank you . ok . grad a: and then say , uh , morgan has has consistently resisted telling me how much money we have . undergrad d: right . well , the answer is zero . grad a: so . undergrad d: there 's a reason why he 's resisted . grad a: well , if it 's zero then we ca n't do any transcription . undergrad d: but . grad a: i mean , cuz we 're we undergrad d: right . phd b: i have such a hard name . grad a: i mean , i i ca n't imagine us doing it ourselves . right ? undergrad d: well , we already we already we already have a plan in place for the first meeting . grad a: n right . undergrad d: right ? that 's postdoc e: well th there is als yeah , really . there is also the o other possibility which is if you can provide not money but instructional experience or some other perks , you can you could get people to to um , to do it in exchange . grad a: right . undergrad d: well , i b but seriously , i i mean , morgan 's obviously in a bind over this and thing to do is just the field of dreams theory , which is we we go ahead as though there will be money at the time that we need the money . grad a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: and that 's that 's the best we can do . grad a: right . phd b: right . undergrad d: i b to not do anything until we get money is is ridiculous . grad a: right . undergrad d: we 're not gon na do any get anything done if we do that . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . grad a: so at any rate , jane was looking into the possibility of getting students , at is that right ? talking to people about that ? postdoc e: i 'm afraid i have n't made any progress in that front yet . grad a: ok . postdoc e: i should 've sent email and i have n't yet . grad a: yeah , right . so , uh undergrad d: i d do so until you actually have a little experience with what this this french thing does we do n't even have postdoc e: and i do have grad a: she 's already done quite a bit . undergrad d: oh , we have . postdoc e: i have a bunch of hours , grad a: yeah . undergrad d: i 'm sorry . so that 's where you came up with the f the ten x number ? postdoc e: yeah . undergrad d: or is that really just a guess ? postdoc e: actually that 's the the one people usually use , ten x . phd c: how fast are you ? postdoc e: and i have n't really calculated how fast am i ? undergrad d: yeah i postdoc e: i have n't done a s see , i 've been at the same time doing kind of a boot strapping in deciding on the transcription conventions that that are you know , and and stuff like , you know , how much phd b: mmm . phd c: right . postdoc e: there 's some interesting human factors problems like , yeah , what span of of time is it useful to segment the thing into in order to uh , transcribe it the most quickly . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: cuz then , you know , you get like if you get a span of five words , that 's easy . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: but then you have to take the time to mark it . and then there 's the issue of it 's easier to hear it th right the first time if you 've marked it at a boundary instead of somewhere in the middle , phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: cuz then the word 's bisected or whatever and and so i mean , i 've been sort of playing with , uh , different ways of mar cuz i 'm thinking , you know , i mean , if you could get optimal instructions you could cut back on the number of hours it would take . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: d does uh this tool you 're using is strictly it does n't do any speech recognition does it ? grad a: no . postdoc e: no , it does n't but what a super tool . it 's a great environment . undergrad d: but but is there anyway to to wire a speech recognizer up to it and actually run it through postdoc e: that 's an interesting idea . grad a: we 've we 've thought about doing that postdoc e: hey ! grad a: but the recognition quality is gon na be horrendous . undergrad d: well , a couple things . phd b: wow . undergrad d: first of all the time marking you 'd get you could get by a tool . phd b: that 's true . undergrad d: and so if the if if the issue really postdoc e: that 's interesting . undergrad d: uh , i 'm think about the close caption that you see running by on on live news casts . grad a: most of those are done by a person . undergrad d: you know , yo i know i know that . postdoc e: yeah , i undergrad d: no , i understand . and in a lot of them you see typos and things like that , grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: but it but it occurs to me that it may be a lot easier to correct things than it is to do things from scratch , no matter how wonderful the tool is . grad a: yeah . yeah , we undergrad d: but if if there was a way to merge the two phd c: well , i mean , but sometimes it 's easier to type out something instead of going through and figuring out which is the right grad a: i mean , we 've talked about it postdoc e: that 'd be fun . grad a: but phd c: i mean , it depends on the error rate , right ? undergrad d: well s but but again the timing is for fr should be for free . the timing should be phd c: but we do n't care about the timing of the words . undergrad d: well i thought you just that 's said that was a critical issue . grad a: we do n't care about the timing of the words , just of the utterances . postdoc e: no , uh the the boundary phd c: we cut it s s phd b: we do n't we do n't know , actually . postdoc e: boundary . phd b: we have n't decided which which time we care about , and that 's kind of one of the things that you 're saying , is like you have the option to put in more or less timing data and , uh , be in the absence of more specific instructions , we 're trying to figure out what the most convenient thing to do is . grad a: yeah , so so what what she 's done so far , is sort of more or less breath g not breath groups , { comment } sort of phrases , continuous phrases . phd b: yeah . grad a: and so , um , that 's nice because you you separate when you do an extract , you get a little silence on either end . so that seems to work really well . postdoc e: that 's ideal . grad a: um . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: although i was i you know , the alternative , which i was sort of experimenting with before i ran out of time , recently was , um that , you know , ev if it were like an arbitrary segment of time i t pre - marked cuz it does take time to put those markings in . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: it 's really the i the interface is wonderful because , you know , the time it takes is you listen to it , and then you press the return key . but then , you know , it 's like , uh , you press the tab key to stop the flow and and , uh , the return key to p to put in a marking of the boundary . but , you know , obviously there 's a lag between when you hear it and when you can press the return key phd b: yeah . postdoc e: so it 's slightly delayed , so then you you listen to it a second time and move it over to here . undergrad d: a postdoc e: so that takes time . undergrad d: i a postdoc e: now if it could all be pre - marked at some , l you know , good undergrad d: ar but grad a: hmm . undergrad d: are are those d delays adjustable ? those delays adjustable ? see a lot of people who actually build stuff with human computer interfaces understand that delay , phd b: yeah . undergrad d: and and so when you by the time you click it it 'll be right on because it 'll go back in time to put the postdoc e: yeah . phd b: it could do that postdoc e: yeah , uh , not in this case . grad a: we could program that pretty easily , phd b: could n't it . postdoc e: it has other grad a: could n't we dan ? yeah , mis mister tcl ? phd b: yeah . postdoc e: oh , interesting point . phd b: i would have thought so , yeah . postdoc e: ah ! { comment } interesting point . phd b: mmm . postdoc e: ok , that would make a difference . grad a: but , um postdoc e: i mean , it 's not bad grad a: but , if we tried to do automatic speaker id . postdoc e: but it does take twice . grad a: i mean , cuz primarily the markings are at speaker change . phd b: yeah , yeah , but grad a: but that would be phd b: but we 've got we 've got the most channel data . we 'd have to do it from your signal . right . i mean , we 've we 've got we 've got a lot of data . postdoc e: oh , good point ! ah ! grad a: yeah , i guess the question is how much time will it really save us versus the time to write all the tools to do it . postdoc e: we 've got volume . phd b: right . but the chances are if we if we 're talking about collecting ten or a hundred hours , which is going to take a hundred or a thousand hours to transcribe undergrad d: if grad a: but undergrad d: if we can go from ten x to five x we 're doing a big grad a: we 're gon na need we 're gon na need ten to a hundred hours to train the tools , and validate the tools the do the d to to do all this anyway . phd c: right . so maybe postdoc e: wow . phd b: if we 're just doing silence detection postdoc e: but but it op grad a: i knew you were gon na do that . just saw it coming . postdoc e: i 'm sorry . i wish you had told me wish you 'd told me . undergrad d: put put it on your sweater . postdoc e: at what part ? ok , i 'm alright . phd b: um , i it seems like well , uh , i do n't know . yeah . i mean , it it 's it 's maybe like a week 's work to get to do something like this . so forty or fifty hours . phd c: right . postdoc e: could you get it so that with so it would it would detect volume on a channel and insert a marker ? and the the format 's really transparent . phd b: sure . phd c: yeah . postdoc e: it 's just a matter of a very c clear it 's xml , is n't it ? grad a: mm - hmm . postdoc e: it 's very i mean , i looked at the the file format and it 's just it has a t a time a time indication and then something or other , and then an end time or something or other . phd c: so maybe maybe we could try the following experiment . take the data that you 've already transcribed postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd c: and undergrad d: is this already in the past or already in the future ? phd c: already in the past . undergrad d: you 've already you 've already done some ? grad a: she 's she 's done about half a meeting . phd c: she she 's done one she 's one postdoc e: yes i have . undergrad d: oh - oh , i see . phd c: right . undergrad d: ok , grad a: right ? phd c: right . undergrad d: good . grad a: about half ? phd c: i 'm go postdoc e: s i 'm not sure if it 's that 's much but anyway , enough to work with . phd c: right . phd b: several minutes . phd c: um , and and throw out the words , but keep the time markings . and then go through i mean , and go through and and try and re - transcribe it , given that we had perfect boundary detection . postdoc e: ok . good idea . phd c: and see if it see if it see if it feels easier to you . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: and forgetting all the words because you 've been thr postdoc e: yeah , that 's what i was thinking . i 'd i 'd be cheating a little bit g with familiarity effect . phd c: yeah , i mean uh , that 's part of the problem is , is that what we really need is somebody else to come along . phd b: well , no , you should do it you should do it do it again from scratch and then do it again at the boundaries . so you do the whole thing three times and then we get phd c: yeah . postdoc e: no . now , there 's a plan . undergrad d: and then then w since we need some statistics do it three more . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: and so you 'll get you 'll get down to one point two x by the time you get done . postdoc e: oh , yeah . i 'll do that tomorrow . i should have it finished by the end of the day . undergrad d: no , but the thing is the fact that she 's she 's did it before just might give a lower bound . that 's all . phd b: yeah . phd c: right . undergrad d: uh , which is fine . postdoc e: exactly . undergrad d: it 's and if the lower bound is nine x then w it 's a waste of time . postdoc e: yeah . phd c: right . postdoc e: well , uh but there 's an extra problem which is that i did n't really keep accurate phd b: oh ! postdoc e: uh , it was n't a pure task the first time , phd b: yeah . postdoc e: so uh , it 's gon na be an upper bound in in that case . and it 's not really strictly comparable . so i think though it 's a good proposal to be used on a new a new batch of text that i have n't yet done yet in the same meeting . could use it on the next segment of the text . phd b: the point we where do we get the the the oracle boundaries from ? phd c: right . phd b: or the boundaries . grad a: yeah , one person would have to assign the boundaries and the and the other person would have to postdoc e: well , but could n't i do it for the next phd b: we we we could get fake grad a: i mean that 's easy enough . postdoc e: oh , i see what you mean . grad a: i could do that . postdoc e: well , but the oracle boundaries would come from volume on a partic specific channel would n't they ? grad a: no , no . phd b: that would be the automatic boundaries . phd c: no , no , no , no . you wan na know given given a perfect human segmentation , i mean , you wan na know how well postdoc e: yeah . phd c: i mean , the the question is , is it worth giving you the segmentation ? postdoc e: oh , i see what you mean . grad a: i mean , that that 's easy enough . phd c: right . postdoc e: yeah . grad a: i could generate the segmentation and and you could do the words , and time yourself on it . so . undergrad d: a little double - blind - ear kind of thing . grad a: yep . postdoc e: i see . ok . grad a: so it that might be worth doing . postdoc e: that 's good . i like that . grad a: that would at least tell us whether it 's worth spending a week or two trying to get a tool , that will compute the segmentations . phd c: right . undergrad d: and the thing to keep in mind too about this tool , guys is that sure , you can do the computation for what we 're gon na do in the future but if if uw 's talking about doing two , or three , or five times as much stuff and they can use the same tool , then obviously there 's a real multiplier there . grad a: right . postdoc e: and the other thing too is with with speaker identification , if if that could handle speaker identification that 's a big deal . phd b: well it w phd c: right . undergrad d: well , use it . yeah , that 's why we s bought the expensive microphones . postdoc e: ok . yeah , i mean , that 's a nice feature . grad a: yep . phd b: yeah , yeah . postdoc e: that 's a major that 's like , one of the two things that phd c: i mean , there 's gon na there 's gon na be in the meeting , like the reading group meeting that we had the other day , that 's it 's gon na be a bit of a problem phd b: ok . phd c: because , like , i was n't wearing a microphone phd b: yes . phd c: f and there were other people that were n't wearing microphones . grad a: that undergrad d: but you did n't say anything worth while anyway , right ? grad a: that 'll s phd b: right . phd c: that 's pretty much true postdoc e: yeah . grad a: it might save ninety percent of the work though . phd c: but but , yes . grad a: so . phd b: so i i need to we need to look at what what the final output is but it seems like we it does n't it seems like it 's not really not that hard to have an automatic tool to generate the phrase marks , and the speaker , and speaker identity without putting in the words . grad a: yeah . i 've already become pretty familiar with the format , postdoc e: that 'd be so great . grad a: so it would be easy . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: yeah . yeah . grad a: if you 'd tell me where it is , huh ? postdoc e: we did n't finish the the part of work already completed on this , did we ? i mean , you you talked a little bit about the transcription conventions , grad a: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and , i guess you 've mentioned in your progress report , or status report , that you had written a script to convert it into so , i when i i the it 's quickest for me in terms of the transcription part to say something like , you know , if if adam spoke to , um to just say , `` a colon `` , like who could be , you know , i mean at the beginning of the line . phd b: mmm . postdoc e: and e colon instead of entering the interface for speaker identification and clicking on the thing , uh , indicating the speaker id . so , and then he has a script that will convert it into the the thing that , uh , would indicate speaker id . grad a: it 's pretty cute . postdoc e: if that 's clear . phd c: ok . grad a: but at any rate . so , um , postdoc e: it 's perl script . grad a: right . so so i think the guess at ten x seems to be pretty standard . everyone more or less everyone you talk to says about ten times for hard technical transcription . postdoc e: mm - hmm . undergrad d: using wh using stone age postdoc e: yeah . undergrad d: using stone age tools . postdoc e: that 's right . grad a: using using stone age tools . i mean , i looked at cyber transcriber postdoc e: yeah , well that 's true , but grad a: which is a service that you send an audio file , they do a first - pass speech recognition . and then they they do a clean up . but it 's gon na be horrible . they 're never gon na be able to do a meeting like this . phd b: no . undergrad d: right . postdoc e: what i just approximately , what did you find out in terms of price or or whatever ? grad a: well , for cyber transcriber they do n't quote a price . they want you to call and and talk . so for other services , um , they were about thirty dollars an hour . postdoc e: of of tape ? grad a: thirty so , yeah . postdoc e: or of action ? grad a: for thirty dollars an hour for of their work . postdoc e: ok . ok . oh , of their grad a: so so if it 's ten times it 's three hundred dollars an hour . postdoc e: oh ! phd c: so that 's three that 's three hours . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: d did you talk to anybody that does closed captioning for for uh , tv ? phd c: right . grad a: no . undergrad d: cuz they a usually at the end of the show they 'll tell what the name of the company is , the captioning company that 's doing it . grad a: mm - hmm . yeah , so so my my search was pretty cursory . postdoc e: interesting . grad a: it was just a net search . and , uh , so it was only people who have web pages and are doing stuff through that . undergrad d: well , you know , the the thing the thing about this is thinking kind of , maybe a little more globally than i should here but { comment } that really this could be a big contribution we could make . uh , i mean , we 've been through the stp thing , we know what it what it 's like to to manage the manage the process , and admittedly they might have been looking for more detail than what we 're looking for here but it was a it was a big hassle , right ? phd b: yeah . undergrad d: i mean , uh , you know , they they constantly could 've reminding people and going over it . and clearly some new stuff needs to be done here . and it 's it 's only our time , where `` our `` of course includes dan , dan and you guys . it does n't include me at all . uh . j just seems like phd b: yeah , i mean i do n't know if we 'd be able to do any thing f to help stp type problems . but certainly for this problem we can do a lot better than undergrad d: bec why ? because they wanted a lot more detail ? grad a: right . phd b: no . because they had because they only had two speakers , right ? i mean , the the segmentation problem is grad a: trivial . undergrad d: only had two . grad a: they had two speakers over the telephone . undergrad d: oh , i see . so what took them so long ? grad a: um , mostly because they were doing much lower level time . phd b: yeah . grad a: so they were doing phone and syllable transcription , as well as , uh , word transcription . undergrad d: right . right . phd c: right . postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad a: and so we 're w we decided early on that we were not gon na do that . undergrad d: i see . but there 's still the same issue of managing the process , of of reviewing and keeping the files straight , and all this stuff , that which is clearly a hassle . grad a: yep . phd b: yeah . grad a: right . and so so what i 'm saying is that if we hire an external service i think we can expect three hundred dollars an hour . phd b: yeah . grad a: i think that 's the ball park . there were several different companies that and the the range was very tight for technical documents . twenty - eight to thirty - two dollars an hour . phd c: and who who knows if they 're gon na be able to m manage multal multiple channel data ? phd b: yeah , they wo n't . grad a: they wo n't . phd b: they w they 'll refuse to do it . grad a: we 'll have to mix them . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . phd c: right . phd b: no , but i mean , they they they wo n't they wo n't they will refuse to transcribe this kind of material . postdoc e: and then there 's the problem also that phd b: that 's not what they 're d quoting for , right ? grad a: yes , it is . undergrad d: well , they might they might quote it phd b: for quoting meetings ? grad a: sev - several of them say that they 'll do meetings , and conferences , and s and so on . none of them specifically said that they would do speaker id , or speaker change mark . phd b: wow . yeah . grad a: they all just said transcription . undergrad d: th - th the th there may be just multiplier for five people costs twice as much and for ten people co { comment } something like that . phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . grad a: well , the the way it worked is it it was scaled . so what they had is , if it 's an easy task it costs twenty - four dollars an hour and it will take maybe five or six times real time . and what they said is for the hardest tasks , bad acoustics , meeting settings , it 's thirty - two dollars an hour and it takes about ten times real time . so i think that we can count on that being about what they would do . phd b: i see . yeah . grad a: it would probably be a little more phd b: right . postdoc e: yeah . grad a: because we 're gon na want them to do speaker marking . undergrad d: a lot of companies i 've worked for y the , uh the person leading the meeting , the executive or whatever , would sort of go around the room and and mentally calculate h how many dollars per hour this meeting was costing , grad a: so . undergrad d: right ? in university atmosphere you get a little different thing . but you know , it 's a lot like , `` he 's worth fifty an hour , he 's worth `` and so he so here we 're thinking , `` well let 's see , if the meeting goes another hour it 's going to be another thousand dollars . `` you know ? it 's grad a: yep , we have to have a short meeting . undergrad d: so ch so every everybody ta talk really fast . postdoc e: that 's very interesting . grad a: stop talking ! phd b: yeah . undergrad d: let 's get it over with . postdoc e: talk slowly but with few words . grad a: and clearly . phd b: that 's right . undergrad d: and only talk when you 're pointed to . postdoc e: there you go . grad a: content words only . postdoc e: we could have some telegraphic meetings . that might be interesting . phd b: yeah , it 'd be cheap . undergrad d: phd b: cheap to transcribe . grad a: so . but at any rate , so we we have a ballpark on how much it would cost if we send it out . undergrad d: and we 're talking about do doing how many hours worth of meetings ? grad a: thirty or forty . undergrad d: so thirty or forty thousand dollars . phd b: well , for ten thousand dollars . postdoc e: yeah . phd c: so , meanwhile undergrad d: oh . what well , it was thirty times phd b: three hundred . grad a: three hundred dollars an hour . undergrad d: oh , i 'm sorry , three hundred . grad a: right . undergrad d: right , i w got an extra factor of three there . phd c: so it 's thirty dollars an hour , essentially , right ? undergrad d: yeah . phd c: but we can pay a graduate student seven dollars an hour . and the question is what 's the difference phd b: how how much lower are they ? phd c: or ei eight dollars . what do you know what the going rate is ? it 's it 's on the order of eight to ten . postdoc e: i think uh that would give us a a good good estimate . phd c: i think . but i 'm not sure . postdoc e: i 'd i 'd say phd b: ten . postdoc e: yeah , i was gon na say eight you 'd say ten ? phd c: let 's say ten . phd b: yeah , give them a break . phd c: cuz it 's easier . undergrad d: the - these are not for engineering graduate students , right ? grad a: right , these are linguistics grad students . six . phd c: yeah , i i i do n't i do n't know what the i do n't know what the standard undergrad d: that 's right . phd c: but there is a standard pay scale grad a: mm - hmm . phd c: i just do n't know what it is . postdoc e: yeah , that 's right . that 's right . phd c: um , so that means that even if it takes them thirty times real time it 's cheaper to to do graduate students . postdoc e: and there 's another aspect too . grad a: i mean , that 's why i said originally , that i could n't imagine sending it out 's gon na be cheaper . phd b: no , it is n't . so . postdoc e: the other thing too is that , uh , if they were linguistics they 'd be you know , in terms of like the post editing , i uh tu uh content wise they might be easier to handle cuz they might get it more right the first time . grad a: and also we would have control of i mean , we could give them feedback . whereas if we do a service it 's gon na be limited amount . phd b: yep , yep . postdoc e: mmm . grad a: i mean , we ca n't tell them , you know , `` for this meeting we really wan na mark stress postdoc e: good point . phd b: yep . grad a: and for this meeting we want `` phd b: no . postdoc e: good point . grad a: and and they 're not gon na provide they 're not gon na provide stress , they 're not gon na re provide repairs , they 're not gon na provide they they may or may not provide speaker id . so that we would have to do our own tools to do that . so postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad a: i just phd b: yeah . undergrad d: just hypoth hypothetically assuming that that we go ahead and ended up using graduate students . i who who 's the person in charge ? who 's gon na be the steve here ? grad a: i hope it 's jane . undergrad d: you ? grad a: is that alright ? postdoc e: oh , interesting . um , now would this involve some manner of uh , monetary compensation or would i be the voluntary , uh , coordinator of multiple transcribers for checking ? grad a: um , i would imagine there would be some monetary involved but we 'd have to talk to morgan about it . phd b: yeah , out of out of adam 's pocket . phd c: yeah . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: you know , it just means you have to stop working for dave . see ? postdoc e: oh , undergrad d: that 's why dave should have been here . postdoc e: i do n't wan na stop working for dave . undergrad d: to pr protect his people . grad a: well , i would like you to do it because you have a lot more experience than i do , postdoc e: oh , cool . yeah . grad a: but if if that 's not feasible , i will do it with you as an advisor . postdoc e: uh - huh . undergrad d: w we 'd like you to do it and we 'd like to pay you . postdoc e: we 'll see . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: not being morgan though , it 's postdoc e: ok . phd c: right . postdoc e: oh , i see . phd b: we 'd like to . unfortunately postdoc e: well undergrad d: yeah . postdoc e: yeah . grad a: yeah , six dollars an hour . postdoc e: yeah , i see . phd c: that 's a undergrad d: and and then postdoc e: ok . boy , if i wanted to increase my income i could start doing the transcribing again . phd b: yeah , that 's right . yeah . undergrad d: an an an and be and be sure and say , would you like fries with that when you 're thinking about your pay scale . postdoc e: i see . good . yeah , no , that i i would be interested in that in becoming involved in the project in some aspect like that grad a: ok . more . postdoc e: more . yeah . uh - huh . yeah . grad a: um , any more on transcript we wan na talk about ? phd b: what s so what are you so you 've done some portion of the first meeting . and what 's your plan ? postdoc e: yes . mm - hmm . phd b: to carry on doing it ? postdoc e: what well , you know what i thought was right now we have p so i gave him the proposal for the transcription conventions . he made his , uh , suggestion of improvement . phd b: ok . postdoc e: the the it 's a good suggestion . so as far as i 'm concerned those transcription conventions are fixed right now . and so my next plan would be phd b: what what do they what do they cover ? postdoc e: they 're very minimal . so , it would be good to just to summarize that . so , um , one of them is the idea of how to indicate speaker change , phd b: yeah . postdoc e: and this is a way which meshes well with with , uh , making it so that , uh , you know , on the at the phd b: yeah . postdoc e: boy , it 's such a nice interface . when you when you get the , um you you get the speech signal you also get down beneath it , an indication of , uh , if you have two speakers overlapping in a s in a single segment , you see them one displayed one above each other . and then at the same time the top s part of the screen is the actual verbatim thing . you can clip click on individual utterances and it 'll take you immediately to that part of the speech signal , and play it for you . and you can , eh you can work pretty well between those two these two things . undergrad d: is there a limit to the number of speakers ? grad a: um , the user interface only allows two . and so if if you 're using their interface to specify overlapping speakers you can only do two . phd b: hmm . grad a: but my script can handle any . and their save format can handle any . and so , um , using this the convention that jane and i have discussed , you can have as many overlapping speakers as you want . undergrad d: do y is this a , uh , university project ? phd b: yeah . undergrad d: th - this is the french software , right ? grad a: yeah , french . phd b: yeah , yeah , grad a: yeah . and they 're they 've been quite responsive . phd b: their academic . undergrad d: eh grad a: i 've been exchanging emails on various issues . phd b: oh , really ? undergrad d: uh , did you ask them to change the interface for more speakers ? postdoc e: oh . grad a: yes , and they said that 's on in in the works for the next version . undergrad d: good . phd c: oh , so multi multichannels . undergrad d: good . grad a: multichannels was also well , they said they wanted to do it but that the code is really very organized around single channels . so i think that 's n unlikely to ha happen . phd c: i see . ok . undergrad d: do - do you know what they 're using it for ? why 'd they develop it ? grad a: for this exact task ? phd c: for transcription . undergrad d: are they linguists ? phd c: it 's undergrad d: but i mean , are they are they linguists or are they speech recognition people ? grad a: i think they 're linguists . postdoc e: ho phd b: linguists . postdoc e: hmm . phd b: yeah . phd c: they 're they have some connection to the ldc cuz the ldc has been advising them on this process , the linguistic data consortium . um , undergrad d: mm - hmm . phd c: so but a apart from that . grad a: it 's also all the source is available . phd c: yeah . grad a: so . phd c: right . grad a: if you if you speak tcltk . undergrad d: great . mm - hmm . grad a: and they have they 've actually asked if we are willing to do any development and i said , well , maybe . phd c: right . undergrad d: good . grad a: so if we want if we did if we did something like programmed in a delay , which actually i think is a great idea , um , i 'm sure they would want that incorporated back in . postdoc e: mm - hmm . yeah , i do too . phd b: mm - hmm . undergrad d: their pre pre - lay . phd b: pre - lay . grad a: way . postdoc e: pre - lay . well , and they 've thought about things . you know , i mean , they they do have so you have when you when you play it back , um , it 's it is useful to have , uh , a a break mark to se segment it . but it would n't be strictly necessary cuz you can use the uh , the tabbed key to toggle the sound on and off . i mean , it 'll stop the s speech you know if you if you press a tab . and , um . and so , uh , that 's a nice feature . and then also once you 've put a break in then you have the option of cycling through the unit . you could do it like multiply until you get { comment } crazy and decide to stop cycling through that unit . undergrad d: loop it ? yo - you n you know , there 's al also the the user interface that 's missing . postdoc e: or or or undergrad d: it 's missing from all of our offices , and that is some sort of analog input for something like this . it 's what audio people actually use of course . it 's something that wh when you move your hand further , the sound goes faster past it , like fast forward . you know , like a joy stick or a uh , you could wire a mouse or trackball to do something like that . postdoc e: why , that 's that 's not something i wanted to have happen . undergrad d: no , but i 'm saying if this is what professionals who actually do this kind of thing for for for m for video or for audio where you you need to do this , postdoc e: i see . uh - huh . undergrad d: and so you get very good at sort of jostling back and forth , rather than hitting tab , and backspace , and carriage return , and enter , and things like that . phd b: mmm . mmm . postdoc e: uh - huh . grad a: yeah , we talked about things like foot pedals and other analog phd c: yeah . undergrad d: mm - hmm . grad a: so i mean , tho those are things we could do but i i just do n't know how much it 's worth doing . i mean we 're just gon na have undergrad d: ye - yeah . phd c: yeah . undergrad d: right . postdoc e: yeah , i i agree . they they have several options . so , uh , you know , i mentioned the looping option . another option is it 'll pause when it reaches the end of the boundary . and then to get to the next boundary you just press tab grad a: hmm . postdoc e: and it goes on to the next unit . undergrad d: cool . postdoc e: i mean , it 's very nicely thought out . phd c: hmm . postdoc e: they thought about and also it 'll go around the c the , uh , i wan na say cursor but i 'm not sure if that 's the right thing . grad a: point , whatever . postdoc e: anyway , you can so they thought about different ways of having windows that you c uh work within , phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and but so in terms of the con the conventions , then , uh , basically , uh , it 's strictly orthographic which means with some w provisions for , uh , w uh , colloquial forms . so if a person said , `` cuz `` instead of `` because `` then i put a an apostrophe at the beginning of the word and then in in double ang angle brackets what the full lexical item would be . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and this could be something that was handled by a table or something but i think to have a convention marking it as a non - standard or wha i do n't mean standard but a a a non uh , ortho orthographic , uh , whatever . phd b: mm - hmm . grad a: non - canonical . phd c: mm - hmm . postdoc e: `` gon na `` or `` wan na `` , you know , the same thing . and and there would be limits to how much refinement you want in indicating something as non - standard pres pronunciation . phd c: how are you handling backchannels ? postdoc e: backchannels ? grad a: comments . postdoc e: um , you know oh , yes , there was some in my view , when i when you 've got it densely overlapping , um , i did n't worry about i did n't worry about s specific start times . phd c: what do you mean by du postdoc e: i sort of thought that this is not gon na be { comment } easily processed anyway and maybe i should n't spend too much time getting exactly when the person said `` no `` , or , you know , uh , i `` immediate `` . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: and instead just sort of rendered `` within this time slot , there were two people speaking during part of it phd b: yeah . postdoc e: and if you want more detail , figure it out for yourself `` , phd b: mm - hmm . grad a: well , i think what w what eric was talking about was channels other than the direct speech , phd c: i see . postdoc e: was sort of the way i felt @ @ grad a: right ? phd c: well , yeah , what i mean is wh i mean , when somebody says `` uh - huh `` in the middle of , uh , a @ @ grad a: yep . postdoc e: uh - huh . that happened very seldom . phd c: oh , cuz i was i was listening to dan was agreeing a lot to things that you were saying as you were talking . undergrad d: uh - huh . uh - huh . postdoc e: oh , well , thank you dan . phd c: so . postdoc e: appreciate it . well , if it if there was a word like `` right `` , you know , then i wou i would indicate that it happened within the same tem time frame grad a: yeah , there 's an overlapping mark . phd c: and phd b: yeah . postdoc e: but would n't say exactly when it happened . undergrad d: i 'll be right back . phd b: i transcribed a minute of this stuff phd c: i see . phd b: and there was a lot of overlapping . it was postdoc e: a lot of overlapping , yeah . grad a: well there there 's a lot of overlapping at the beginning and end . phd b: yeah . yeah . grad a: huge amounts . phd b: it was at the beginning . grad a: um , when when no one i when we 're not actually in the meeting , and we 're all sort of separated , and and doing things . but even during the meeting there 's a lot of overlap but it it 's marked pretty clearly . um , some of the backchannel stuff jane had some comments and but i think a lot of them were because you were at the meeting . and so i think that that often often you ca n't tell . postdoc e: yeah , well that 's true . that 's another issue . grad a: i mean , jane had had comments like uh , to who who the person was speaking to . phd c: yeah . postdoc e: yeah . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: only when it was otherwise gon na be puzzling grad a: yeah . postdoc e: because he was in the other room talking . grad a: yeah , but someone who , uh , was just the transcriber would n't have known that . postdoc e: yeah . grad a: or when dan said , `` i wa i was n't talking to you `` . phd c: right . postdoc e: that 's true . i know . undergrad d: so you take a bathroom break in the middle and and keep your head mount grad a: you have to turn off your mike . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: oh , you do ? phd b: you do n't have to . postdoc e: well he was so so he was checking the meter levels and and we were handling things while he was labeling the the whatever it was , the pda ? grad a: mm - hmm . phd b: uh - huh . postdoc e: and and so he was in sort of you were sort of talking you know , so i was saying , like `` and i could label this one left . right ? `` and he and he said , `` i do n't see anything `` . and he said he said , `` i was n't talking to you `` . or it was n't it did n't sound quite that rude . grad a: but postdoc e: but really , no , uh w you know in the context if you know he ca n't hear what he 's saying grad a: but when you w when you listen to it undergrad d: he he it was a lot funnier if you were there though . postdoc e: uh , yeah , grad a: well what what it what happens is if you 're a transcriber listening to it it sounds like dan is just being a total totally impolite . postdoc e: i know . well , you 'll see . you can listen to it . oh , i thought it was you who was . no , well , but you were you were asking off the wall questions . grad a: um but but if you knew that that i was n't actually in the room , and that dan was n't talking to me , it it became ok . so . phd b: i see . undergrad d: so th postdoc e: and that 's w that 's where i added comments . phd c: hmm . postdoc e: the rest of the time i did n't bother with who was talking to who but but this was unusual circum circumstance . undergrad d: so this is this is gon na go on the meeting meeting transcriber bloopers tape , right ? grad a: yes . right . postdoc e: well and part of it was funny , uh reason was because it was a mixed signal so you could n't get any clues from volume that , you know , he was really far away from this conversation . grad a: stereo . yeah . postdoc e: you could n't do that symmetrically in any case . phd b: no . grad a: oh . i should rewrite the mix tool to put half the people in one channel and half in the other . i have a auto - gain - mixer tool that mixes all the head mounted microphones into one signal postdoc e: that 's a good idea . undergrad d: mm - hmm . grad a: and that seems to work really well for the uh transcribers . undergrad d: great . postdoc e: but i thought it would be you know , i i did n't wan na add more contextual comments than were needed but that , it seemed to me , clarified that the con what was going on . and , uh ok , phd c: so , s postdoc e: so normalization phd c: i was just gon na ask , uh , so i just wanted to c sort of finish off the question i had about backchannels , phd b: mmm . phd c: if that 's ok , postdoc e: yeah . ok . phd c: which which was , so say somebody 's talking for a while postdoc e: yeah . phd c: and somebody goes `` mm - hmm `` in the middle of it , and and and what not , does the conversation come out from the or the person who 's speaking for the long time as one segment and then there 's this little tiny segment of this other speaker or does it does the fact that there 's a backchannel split the the the it in two . postdoc e: ok , my my focus was to try and maintain conten con content continuity and , uh , to keep it within what he was saying . like i would n't say breath groups but prosodic or intonational groups as much as possible . so if someone said `` mm - hmm `` in the middle of a of someone 's , uh , uh , intonational contour , i i indicated it as , like what you just did . phd c: ok . postdoc e: then i indicated it as a segment which contained @ @ { comment } this utterance plus an overlap . phd b: but that 's but there 's only one there 's only one time boundary for both speakers , phd c: ok . phd b: right ? postdoc e: yeah , that 's right . and you know , it could be made more precise than that phd c: i see , postdoc e: but i just thought phd c: i see , ok . postdoc e: yeah . phd c: right . undergrad d: i think whenever we use these speech words we should always do the thing like you 're talking about , accent , postdoc e: oh , i see what you mean . and then `` hesitation `` . yeah . ok , and so then , uh , in terms of like words like `` uh `` and `` um `` i just wrote them because i figured there 's a limited number , and i keep them to a uh , limited set because it did n't matter if it was `` mmm `` or `` um `` , { comment } you know , versus `` um `` . so i just always wrote it as u m . phd b: ok . postdoc e: and `` uh - huh `` , you know , `` uhuh . `` i mean , like a s set of like five . but in any case i did n't mark those . phd b: no . phd c: mm - hmm . phd b: `` uh - huh `` is `` u h h u h . `` h u h . `` postdoc e: i 'd be happy with that . that 'd be fine . it 'd be good to have that in the in the conventions , what 's to be used . phd c: huh - uh . grad a: i i did notice that there were some segments that had pauses on the beginning and end . we should probably mark areas that have no speakers as no speaker . then , so question mark colon is fine for that . postdoc e: yeah , that 's a fine idea . that 's a fine idea . grad a: just say silence . undergrad d: well , what 's that mean ? postdoc e: yeah , ok . yeah . undergrad d: you mean re grad a: no one 's talking . undergrad d: ye s oh . silence all around . grad a: yep . undergrad d: yep . phd b: we have to mark those ? postdoc e: so i had phd b: do n't they d ca n't we just leave them unmarked ? postdoc e: i d well , you see , that 's possible too . grad a: well , i wan na leave the marked i do n't want them to be part of another utterance . so you just you need to have the boundary at the start and the end . phd b: ok . sure . postdoc e: mm - hmm . now that 's refinement that , uh , maybe it could be handled by part of the part of the script or something more phd b: uh , yeah , it seems like it seems like the , uh , tran the transcription problem would be very different if we had these automatic speaker detection turn placing things . because suddenly i mean , i do n't know , actually it sounds like there might be a problem putting it into the software if the software only handles two parallel channels . but assuming we can get around that somehow . postdoc e: mm - hmm . well you were saying , i think it can read grad a: it can read and write as many as you want , it 's just that it postdoc e: uh - huh . phd b: but what if you wan na edit it ? right ? i mean , the point is we 're gon na generate this transcript with five five tracks in it , but with no words . someone 's gon na have to go in and type in the words . um , and if there are five five people speaking at once , grad a: right , i it 's i did n't explain it well . if we use the the little the conventions that jane has established , i have a script that will convert from that convention to their saved convention . phd b: oh , yeah . yes . postdoc e: which allows five . grad a: right . postdoc e: and it can be m edited after the fact , grad a: yes . postdoc e: ca n't it also ? but their but their format , if you wanted to in indicate the speakers right there instead of doing it through this indirect route , then i they a c window comes up and it only allows you to enter two speakers . phd b: yeah . right . undergrad d: but you 're saying that by the time you call it back in to from their saved format it opens up a window with window with five speakers ? postdoc e: so . but . grad a: right . undergrad d: oh ! that is sort of f grad a: it 's just user interface . undergrad d: they did n't quite go the whole grad a: so i it 's undergrad d: yeah , they did n't go the whole route , grad a: the the the whole saved form the saved format and the internal format , all that stuff , handles multiple speakers . undergrad d: did they ? they just grad a: it 's just there 's no user interface for specifying multiple any more than two . undergrad d: right . so your your script solves does n't it solve all our problems , postdoc e: and that grad a: yep . undergrad d: cuz we 're always gon na wan na go through this preprocessing grad a: yep . undergrad d: uh , assuming it works . grad a: yep . postdoc e: and that works nicely cuz this so quick to enter . so i would n't wan na do it through the interface anyway adding which worry who the speaker was . grad a: yep . undergrad d: i see . right . good . postdoc e: and then , uh , let 's see what else . oh , yes , i i wanted to have so sometimes a pers i uh in terms of like the continuity of thought for transcriptions , it 's i it is n't just words coming out , it 's like there 's some purpose for an utterance . and sometimes someone will do a backchannel in the middle of it but you wan na show that it 's continued at a later point . so i have i have a convention of putting like a dash arrow just to indicate that this person 's utterance continues . and then when it uh , catches back up again then there 's an arrow dash , and then you have the opposite direction to indicate continuation of ones own utterance versus , um , sometimes we had the situation which is you know , which you which you get in conversations , { comment } of someone continuing someone else 's utterance , phd b: mmm . postdoc e: and in that case i did a tilde arrow versus a arrow tilde , to indicate that it was continuation but it was n't oh , i guess i did equal arrow for the for the own for yourself things phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: cuz it 's the speakers the same . and then tilde arrow if it was a different if a different speaker , uh , con continuation . phd b: mmm . grad a: oh . postdoc e: but just , you know , the arrows showing continuation of a thought . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and then you could track whether it was the same speaker or not by knowing you know , at the end of this unit you 'd know what happened later . and that was like this person continued phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and you 'd be able to look for the continuation . grad a: so phd b: but the only time that becomes ambiguous is if you have two speakers . like , if you if you only have one person , if you only have one thought that 's continuing across a particular time boundary , you just need one arrow at each end , and if it 's picked up by a different speaker , it 's picked up by a different speaker . the time it becomes ambiguous if you have more than one speaker and that and they sort of swap . i guess if you have more than one thread going , then you then you need to know whether they were swapped or not . postdoc e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd c: how often does that happen do you think ? postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: hopefully not very much . postdoc e: yeah , i did n't use it very often . grad a: especially for meetings . i mean , if i if you were just recording someone 's day , it would be impossible . you know , undergrad d: it l ou grad a: if you were trying to do a remembrance agent . but i think for meetings it 's probably alright . phd c: hmm . grad a: but , a lot of these issues , i think that for uh , from my point of view , where i just wan na do speech recognition and information retrieval , it does n't really matter . phd b: sure . grad a: but other people have other interests . phd b: i know . grad a: so . phd b: but it it does feel it does feel like it 's really in there . i you know i did this i did this transcription and i marked that , i marked it with ellipsis because it seemed like there was a difference . it 's something you wanted to indicate that it that i this was the end of the phrase , this was the end of that particular transcript , but it was continued later . grad a: right . phd b: and i picked up with an ellipsis . postdoc e: excellent . yeah . phd b: i did n't have the equal , not equal thing . postdoc e: yeah . well that 's you know , i mean i that 's why i did n't { comment } i did n't do it n i mean , that 's why i thought about it , and and re - ev phd b: yeah , yeah . postdoc e: and it did n't do i did n't do it in ten times the the time . grad a: well , so anyway , are we interested then in writing tools to try to generate any of this stuff automatically ? postdoc e: yeah . grad a: is that something you want to do , dan ? phd b: no . grad a: no . phd b: but it 's something @ @ that i feel we definitely ought to do . postdoc e: i also wanted to ask you if you have a time estimate on the part that you transcribed . do you have a sense of how long phd b: yeah , it took me half an hour to transcribe a minute , but i did n't have any i did n't even have a postdoc e: ok . phd b: i was trying to get transcriber to run but i could n't . so i was doing it by typ typing into a text file and trying to fit it was horrible . postdoc e: ok . ok . undergrad d: so thirty to one 's what you got ? phd b: mm - hmm . undergrad d: so that 's a new upper limit ? phd b: yeah . postdoc e: well , i mean , that 's that 's because you did n't have the segmentation help and all the other grad a: but i think for a first try that 's about right . phd b: is it phd c: so so if we hired a who if we hired a whole bunch of dan 's undergrad d: that 's right . postdoc e: yeah . phd b: it was actually it was quite it was a t undergrad d: a grad a: if we hire an infinite number of dan 's phd b: it w undergrad d: it 'd b a a postdoc e: and there 's always a warm up thing of grad a: are we gon na run out of disk space by the way ? phd b: yeah . grad a: ok , phd b: no . grad a: good . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: d does n't it beep in the other room when you 're out of disk space ? phd c: so is there grad a: no . phd c: maybe we should s consider also , um , starting to build up a web site around all of these things . phd b: web site ! that 's great ! phd c: i know . grad a: dan 's sort of already started . phd b: we could have like business - to - business e - commerce as well ! phd c: that 's right . no , but i 'm it would be interesting it would be interesting to see grad a: can we sell banner ads ? undergrad d: get get paid for click - throughs ? grad a: what a good idea , phd b: yeah . grad a: that 's how we could pay for the transcription . phd c: i want to introduce i i want to introduce the word `` snot - head `` into the conversation at this point . phd b: we can have undergrad d: you wan na word that wo n't be recognized ? phd c: you see , cuz uh , cuz exactly . um . postdoc e: oh , i do n't think so . phd c: no . grad a: hey , what about me ? phd c: the r w what ok . postdoc e: you 're the one who raised the issue . phd c: no . alright , see here 's here 's here 's my thought behind it which is that , uh , the the stuff that you 've been describing , jane , i gu one has to , of course indicate , { comment } um , i is very interesting , postdoc e: alright . phd c: and i i 'd like to be able to to pore through , you know , the the types of tr conventions that you 've come up with and stuff like that . phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . phd c: so i would like to see that kind of stuff on the web . postdoc e: ok , now , w the alternative to a web site would be to put it in doctor speech . phd b: yes . yes . postdoc e: cuz cuz what i have is a soft link to my transcription that i have on my account phd c: either 's fine . phd b: we c postdoc e: but it does n't matter . grad a: we can do it all . phd b: we can do it all ! we can write postdoc e: ok . phd b: oh . postdoc e: web site 's nice . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: then you have to t you have to do an ht access . undergrad d: web site 's what ? phd b: we could actually maybe we could use the tcl plug - in . oh , man . postdoc e: ooo ! he 's committed himself to something . phd c: ow . see he said the word tcl and and that 's undergrad d: but he does such a good job of it . he should be allowed to to , you know , w do it . postdoc e: i know , i know . phd b: i know , but that but , i right . but i should be allowed to but undergrad d: if you just did a crappy job , no nobody would want you to do it . phd b: i sh i should n't be allowed to by m by my own by my according to my own priorities . alright . let 's look at it anyway . so definitely we should we should have some kind of access to the data . grad a: and we have we have quite a disparate number of web and other sorts of documents on this project sort of spread around . phd c: yeah . grad a: i have several and dan has a few , phd b: yes . grad a: and phd c: right , so we can add in links and stuff like that to other things . postdoc e: ah ! grad a: yep . postdoc e: nice . phd b: well , yeah . phd c: the phd b: well so then th grad a: try try to s consolidate . i mean , who wants to do that though ? phd b: the other side is , yeah . phd c: uh , right . grad a: no one wants to do that . so . postdoc e: yeah . phd b: right , that 's the problem . phd c: well , we could put we could put sort of a disorganized sort of group gestalt undergrad d: why ? what what 's what 's the issue ? phd b: no one owns the project . undergrad d: no one what ? phd b: no one owns the project . grad a: yeah , i own the project but i do n't wan na do it . phd b: no one wants to own the project . phd c: right . undergrad d: w well do but grad a: it 's mine ! all mine ! phd b: well then you have to do the web site . undergrad d: but grad a: `` wah - hah - hah - hah - hah - hah . `` phd b: you know , it 's like , it 's that simple . undergrad d: b but but but what are you what are you talking about for web site hacking ? phd b: no undergrad d: you 're talking about writing html , right ? grad a: yeah , i i 'm talking about putting together all the data in a form that that is legible , and pleasant to read , and up to date , and et cetera , et cetera , et cetera . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: but , is it against the law to actually use a tool to help your job go easier ? grad a: absolutely . it 's it 's absolutely against the law to use a tool . i have n't found any tools that i like . undergrad d: you y grad a: it 's just as easy to use to edit the raw html as anything else . undergrad d: no kidding ? phd b: that 's obviously not true , grad a: it 's obviously not true . phd b: but you have undergrad d: no , it it it 's obviously true that he has n't found any he likes . phd b: right . that 's true . undergrad d: the question is what is what 's he looked at . postdoc e: which one do you use jim ? undergrad d: i use something called trellix . postdoc e: oh , that 's right . i remember . yeah . undergrad d: and it postdoc e: which produces also site maps . grad a: now , i guess if i were if i were doing more powerful excuse me more complex web sites i might want to . undergrad d: it 's - it it 's very powerful . grad a: but most of the web sites i do are n't that complex . postdoc e: well , would this be to document it also for outside people or mainly for in house use ? grad a: but . i think both . phd c: no , i think in grad a: mostly in house . phd b: that 's right . phd c: i think mostly internal . undergrad d: well , yeah , postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: but what does internal mean ? phd b: no , both . undergrad d: i mean , you 're leaving . people at uw wan na look at it . i mean , it 's it 's internal { comment } until phd c: right . internal to the project . undergrad d: i see . postdoc e: we could do an ht access which would accommodate those things . phd b: i i i i grad a: ok , well , send me links and i wi send me pointers , rather , and i 'll put it together . phd b: i 'm not o postdoc e: wonderful . phd b: ok . i 'm not sure how how important that distinction is . i do n't think we should say , `` oh , it 's internal therefore we do n't have to make it very good `` . i mean , you can say `` oh oh , it 's internal phd c: no . no . phd b: therefore we can put data in it that we do n't we do n't have to worry about releasing `` . but i think the point is to try and be coherent and make it a nice presentation . undergrad d: right . i agree . postdoc e: yeah , it is true , that is it benefits to undergrad d: cuz you 're gon na have to wor do the work sooner or later . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: that 's right . i mean , it 's the early on . undergrad d: even if it 's just writing things up . grad a: yep . undergrad d: you know ? postdoc e: it 's a great idea . grad a: ok , um , let 's move on to electronics . phd b: ah . great . undergrad d: d we we out of tape out of disk ? phd b: no , we 're doing we 're doing great . undergrad d: i i was looking for the actual box i plan to use , uh , but i c all i could i could n't find it at the local store . but this is the the technology . it 's actually a little bit thinner than this . and it 's two by two , by one , and it would fit right under the right under th the the the the lip , grad a: yeah , does everyone know about the lip on the table ? it 's great . undergrad d: yeah . there 's a lip in these tables . postdoc e: nice . undergrad d: and , it oc i p especially brought the bottom along to try and generate some frequencies that you may not already have recorded . grad a: clink ! clink ! undergrad d: let 's see see what it does to the but this was the uh just just to review , and i also brought this { comment } along rather than the projector so we can put these on the table , and sort of w push them around . grad a: and and crinkle them and phd b: what ? postdoc e: and th `` that `` being a diagram . phd b: what ? undergrad d: that that 's the six tables that we 're looking at . these six tables here , with with little boxes sort of , uh , in the middle here . phd b: i see . postdoc e: ok . undergrad d: which es would i mean , the the boxes are pretty much out of the way anyway . i 'll - i 'll show you the the cro this is the table cross section . i do n't know if people realize what they 're looking at . phd b: you trying to screw up the m the microphones ? grad a: yes . he is . absolutely . phd b: i mean th undergrad d: well why not ? i mean , cuz this is what 's gon na happen . you got plenty of data . i wo n't come to your next meeting . and and and you so this is the box 's grad a: get your paper off my pda ! phd b: yeah . postdoc e: yeah , let let the record show that this is exhibit two b . undergrad d: that 's right . `` or not to be `` . yeah , yeah . grad a: yeah . undergrad d: uh , the box , uh there 's a half inch lip here . the box is an inch thick so it hangs down a half an inch . and so the the two head set jacks would be in the front and then the little led to indicate that that box is live . the the important issue about the led is the fact that we 're talking about eight of these total , which would be sixteen channels . and , uh , even though we have sixteen channels back at the capture , they 're not all gon na be used for this . phd b: hmm . undergrad d: so there 'd be a subset of them used for obviously j just use the ones at this end for for this many . so excuse me . you 'd like a a way to tell whether your box is live , so the led would n't be on . phd b: right . all the lights . undergrad d: so if you 're plugged in it does n't work and the led is off that 's that 's a tip off . and then the , uh would wire the all of the cables in a in a bundle come through here and o obviously collect these cables at the same time . postdoc e: that 's good . undergrad d: uh , so this this notion of putting down the p z ms and taking them away would somehow have to be turned into leaving them on the table grad a: right . well , we wan na do that definitely . undergrad d: or or right . grad a: so . undergrad d: right . and so the you we just epoxy them down or something . big screw into the table . phd b: velcro . undergrad d: uh , and even though there 's eight cables they 're not really very big around so my model is to get a a a p piece of grad a: sleeve . undergrad d: yeah , that that stuff that people put with the little you slip the wires into that 's sort of shaped like that cross section . grad a: oh . ok , not just sleeve them all ? undergrad d: yeah . i 'm i 'm r a i 'm going up and then i 'm going down . grad a: and leave them loose ? phd b: no . postdoc e: that looks like a semi - circle . phd b: yeah . it 's like a it 's a sleeping policeman . grad a: whoo ! phd b: speed bump ! postdoc e: sleeping pol phd b: speed bump . grad a: speed a `` sleeping policeman `` ! undergrad d: yeah , it 's like a speed bum an postdoc e: speed bump . that 's good . there we go s grad a: cool . undergrad d: and they 're ac they 're actually ext extruded from plastic . phd c: what is undergrad d: they sorta look like this . grad a: oh . phd c: what does that mean ? phd b: that 's the s that 's british for speed bump , phd c: is it a speed bump ? undergrad d: so that the wires go through here . phd b: yeah . phd c: wow . postdoc e: oh , is that right ? phd b: yeah . postdoc e: i never heard that . grad a: that 's really cruel . undergrad d: so . postdoc e: ah ! grad a: ok , so that undergrad d: s so it would c basically go on the diagonal here . phd c: it could go either way . grad a: so why do we have sixteen channels instead of like some fewer number ? phd b: yeah . phd c: i guess . undergrad d: uh , because the phd b: how else are you gon na distribute them around the tables ? undergrad d: because they 're there . grad a: well , ok , let me rephrase that . why two each ? phd b: oh , because then you do n't have to just have one each . so that if t if you have two people sitting next to each other they can actually go into the same box . undergrad d: yeah . grad a: ok . undergrad d: and to see , thi this is really the way people sit on this table . th grad a: ok . postdoc e: mm - hmm . undergrad d: uh . dot , dot , dot . postdoc e: which means two at each station . undergrad d: well that that 's the way people sit . that 's how many chairs are in the room . postdoc e: yeah . grad a: alright . postdoc e: yeah , i 'm just saying that for the recording . undergrad d: yeah . grad a: right . undergrad d: right . grad a: ok . undergrad d: and certainly you could do a thing where all sixteen were plugged in . grad a: but then none of these . undergrad d: uh if if you ha if you had nothing else . grad a: right . n none of these and no p z ms then . undergrad d: yeah . right . right . i agree . phd b: only if you had well it depends on this box , right ? undergrad d: oh , true enough . and actually , at the m my plan is to only bring eight wires out of this box . phd b: exactly . grad a: oh , i did n't understand undergrad d: this this box thi - thi thi this box is a one off deal . postdoc e: that being the wiring box . grad a: oh , i see , i see . undergrad d: uh . and , uh , it 's function is to s to , uh , essentially a wire converter to go from these little blue wires to these black wires , plus supply power to the microphones cuz the the he the , uh , cheap head mounteds all require low voltage . grad a: so so you 'd imagine some sort of in some sort of patch panel on top to figure out what the mapping was between each d of these two and each of those one or what ? phd b: hmm ! undergrad d: well i w i i the simplest thing i could imagine , i which is really , really simple is to quite literally that these things plug in . and there 's a there 's a plug on the end of each of these these , uh , ei eight cables . postdoc e: what phd b: yeah . postdoc e: ok . each of the blue wires ? phd b: but there are only four . undergrad d: an - and there 's only there 's only four slots that are you know , in in the first version or the version we 're planning to to build . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . grad a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: so that that was the whole issue with the led , that you plug it in , the led comes on , and and and you 're live . grad a: oh , then it comes on . i see , i see . ok , good . undergrad d: now the the the subtle issue here is that tha i i have n't really figured out a solution for this . so , we it 'll have to be convention . what happens if somebody unplugs this because they plug in more of something else ? grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: well the there 's no clever way to let the up stream guys know that you 're really not being powered . so th there will be a certain amount of looking at cables has to be done if people , uh , rewire things . grad a: right . phd b: yeah , i mean , we i had that last time . undergrad d: but . phd b: but uh there are actually that you know , there 's an extra there 's a mix out on the radio receiver ? undergrad d: mm - hmm . phd b: so there are actually six xlr outs on the back of the radio receiver and only five cables going in , i had the wrong five , so i ended up not recording one of the channels and recording the mix . undergrad d: how interesting . d did you do any recognition on the mix mix out ? postdoc e: hmm . phd b: no . undergrad d: wonder whether it works any phd b: but i subtracted the four that i did have from the mix and got a pretty good approximation of the @ @ . undergrad d: got the fifth ? grad a: you g undergrad d: cool . postdoc e: oh , how great . grad a: and did it work ? phd b: yeah . grad a: did it sound good ? phd b: it 's not bad . undergrad d: is it is phd b: it 's not bad , grad a: wow . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: ai n't science wonderful ? postdoc e: that 's amazing . phd b: yeah . grad a: so what 's the schedule on these things ? undergrad d: so phd b: but , you always postdoc e: wow . undergrad d: uh , well i was wrestling with th with literally the w number of connectors in the cable and the the , uh , powering system . and i i was gon na do this very clever phantom power and i decided a couple days ago not to do it . phd b: hmm ! undergrad d: so i 'm ready to build it . which is to say , uh , the neighborhood of a week to get the circuit board done . grad a: mm - hmm . so i think the other thing i 'd like to do is , do something about the set up phd b: see grad a: so that it 's a little more presentable and organized . undergrad d: i agree . grad a: and i 'm i 'm just not sure what that is . i mean , some sort of cabinet . undergrad d: well i can build a cabinet . the the difficulty for this kind of project is the intellectual capital to design the cabinet . grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: in other words , to figure out ex exactly what the right thing is . that cabinet can can go away . we can use that for for uh kindling or something . but if you can imagine what the right form factor is . dan - dan and i have sort of gone around on this , and we were thinking about something that opened up in the top to allow access to the mixer for example . grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: but there 's these things sticking out of the mixer which are kind of a pain , so you end up with this thing that if if you stuck the mixer up here and the top opened , it 'd be it 'd be fine . you would n't necessarily well , you s understand what i 'm grad a: yeah , i understand . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: the the you can you can start start s sketching it out , grad a: so . undergrad d: and i can certainly build it out of oak no problem , would it you know , arb you know , arbitrarily amount of grad a: i need a desk at home too , alright ? is that gon na be a better solution than just going out and buy one ? undergrad d: well , the as we found out with the the thing that , uh , jeff bought a long time ago to hold our stereo system the stuff you buy is total crap . and i mean this is something you buy . grad a: mm - hmm . undergrad d: and and grad a: and it 's total crap . undergrad d: it 's total crap . well , it 's useless for this function . works fine for holding a kleenex , grad a: right , kleenex and telephones . undergrad d: but it right . grad a: um , so yeah , i g i guess it 's just a question , is that something you wan na spend your time on ? undergrad d: oh , i i 'm paid for . grad a: ok , great . undergrad d: i have no problem . no , but w certainly one of the issues is is the , uh is security . grad a: hmm ? mm - hmm . undergrad d: i mean , we 've been been been lax and lucky . grad a: lax . phd b: yeah . yep . undergrad d: really lucky with these things . but they 're not ours , so phd b: yeah . undergrad d: the , uh the flat panels . phd b: oh , yeah ! grad a: i 'm telling you , i 'm just gon na cart one of them away if they stay there much longer . phd b: well w yeah , exactly . undergrad d: uh , let the record show at uh at f four thirty - five adam janin says postdoc e: wow . tempting . phd b: we 'll know we 'll know to come after . postdoc e: tempting . yeah . grad a: so , um , j uh , then the other question is do we wan na try to do a user interface that 's available out here ? phd b: sorry ? undergrad d: slipped almost slipped it by dan . postdoc e: use - user interface grad a: a user interface . i mean , do we wan na try to get a monitor ? or just something . phd b: oh ! sure . postdoc e: oh . phd b: well of course we do . grad a: and how do we want to do that ? postdoc e: you mean like see see meter readings , from while sitting here . grad a: j just so we see something . postdoc e: wow . undergrad d: how about use the thing that um aciri 's doing . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: which is to say just laptop with a wireless . phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . sure . postdoc e: oh . phd b: which we 'll borrow from them , when we need it . undergrad d: what 's wrong with yours ? if we bought you a a phd b: oh , a applecard . sure . right . yeah , you could use my machine . phd c: well undergrad d: what ? grad a: i have an iram machine i 've borrowed and we can use it . phd b: i or the undergrad d: n no , i 'm i 'm i 'm serious . does does the wireless thing work on your grad a: wait , is n't that an ethernet connection or is that a phone ? phd b: uh , that 's an ethernet connection . grad a: well phd b: it 's going next door . undergrad d: yeah no no i 'm a i i i ai n't joking here . grad a: we jus undergrad d: i 'm serious , that that it it phd b: yeah . no , no , absolutely , that 's the right way to do it . t to have it uh , just undergrad d: it 's very convenient especially if dan happens to be sitting at that end of the table to not have to run down here and and look in the thing every so often , phd b: yeah . and given given that we 've got a wireless that we 've got a we got the field . undergrad d: but just have the it 's right there . phd b: right . undergrad d: right ? the antenna 's right there , grad a: right . phd b: yeah . yeah . undergrad d: right outside the phd b: i do n't know . undergrad d: y i mean , we need obviously need to clear this with aciri but , uh , how tough can that be ? there it you 'd all you need 's web access , is n't it ? phd b: w we do n't need x access undergrad d: in in theory . phd b: but i mean that 's fine . that 's that 's what it does , undergrad d: ok , phd b: yeah . undergrad d: great , great . grad a: um , phd b: so grad a: right , so it 's just a question of getting a laptop and a wireless modem . phd b: with a with a with a w undergrad d: no , and he he had , reque @ @ my my proposal is you have a laptop . phd b: no . yeah . i do ! undergrad d: you do n't ? phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah . undergrad d: if if we bought you the thing would you mind using it with i the the phd b: no , i would love to but i 'm not sure if my laptop is compatible with the wave lan thing they 're using . undergrad d: really ? grad a: to mac . phd b: well apple has their own thing , right ? phd c: he 's undergrad d: your new one ? grad a: airport . undergrad d: i 'm sorry ? phd b: apple has their own thing . and undergrad d: i thought it just came through a serial p or an ethernet port . phd b: yeah , i think what i think you i think it just plug plugs in a pc card , so you could probably make it run with that , but . grad a: the question is , is there an apple driver ? undergrad d: i e phd b: yeah , i 'm sure . i imagine there is . but uh anyway there are there are abs there are a bunch of machines at icsi that have those cards undergrad d: but the two t phd b: and so i think if w if it does n't we should be able to find a machine that does that . i i mean i know that does n't do n't do n't the important people have those little blue vaios that undergrad d: well , uh , b that to me that 's a whole nother . that 's a whole nother issue . postdoc e: hmm . hmm . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: the the idea of con convincing them that we should use their network i is fairly straight forward . phd b: yeah . yeah . undergrad d: the idea of being able to walk into their office and say , `` oh , can i borrow your machine for a while `` , is is is a non - starter . phd b: yeah . i see . undergrad d: that i i do n't think that 's gon na work . so , i mean , either either we figure out how to use a machine somebody already in the group already owns , a a and the idea is that if it 's it perk , you know , it 's an advantage not not a disadvan { comment } or else we we literally buy a machine e exactly for that purpose . phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah . absolutely . yeah . undergrad d: certainly it solves a lot of the problems with leaving a monitor out here all the time . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: i i i i 'm i 'm not a big fan of doing things to the room that make the room less attractive for other people , grad a: right . undergrad d: right ? which is part of the reason for getting all this stuff out of the way grad a: yeah . undergrad d: and and , so a monitor sitting here all the time you know people are gon na walk up to it and go , `` how come i ca n't get , you know , pong on this `` or , whatev grad a: mm - hmm . right . i 've i 've borrowed the iram vaio sony thingy , phd c: well grad a: and i do n't think they 're ever gon na want it back . phd b: yeah . undergrad d: right . phd b: you 're kidding ! undergrad d: well , the next conference they will . grad a: so . sure . undergrad d: yeah . grad a: but that does mean so we can use that as well . undergrad d: well , uh , the certainly , u you should give it a shot first see whether you you can get compatible stuff . phd b: mm - hmm . undergrad d: uh , ask them what it costs . ask them if they have an extra one . who knows , they might have an extra hardware s phd b: i 'd trade them a flat panel display for it . yeah . phd c: what is the , um , projector supposed to be hooked up to ? undergrad d: good . uh , the , uh tsk . it 's gon na be hooked up to all sorts of junk . there 's gon na be actually a a plug at the front that 'll connect to people 's laptops so you can walk in and plug it in . and it 's gon na be con connected to the machine at the back . so we certainly could use that as as a constant reminder of what the vu meters are doing . phd b: huge vu meters . undergrad d: so people sitting here { comment } are going `` testing , one , two , three `` ! phd c: but i mean , that 's another that 's another possibility that , you know , solves undergrad d: it a phd b: yeah . undergrad d: yeah . phd b: that 's an end undergrad d: but but but i think the idea of having a control panel it 's that 's there in front of you is really cool . phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: i think and uh , having having it on wireless is is the neatest way neatest way to do it . undergrad d: r grad a: i had undergrad d: as long as you d as l as long as you 're not tempted to sit there and f keep fiddling with the volume controls going , `` can you talk a bit louder ? `` phd b: yeah . grad a: i had actually earlier asked if i could borrow one of the cards to do wireless stuff phd b: yeah . grad a: and they said , `` sure , whenever you want `` . so i think it wo n't be a problem . phd b: oh , cool . ok . undergrad d: and and it 's a a pcmcia card , right ? grad a: yep . undergrad d: pc card , grad a: pc card . undergrad d: so you can have a slot , phd b: yeah , yeah . undergrad d: right ? in your new machine ? phd c: it 's it really come down to the driver . undergrad d: is it with s phd b: yeah . phd c: i mean grad a: right , i mean , and if and if his does n't work , as i said , we can use the pc . undergrad d: right , i it 'll it 'll work it 'll work the first time . i i trust steve jobs . grad a: good . phd b: um , grad a: so phd b: well , that sounds like a d good solution one way or the other . grad a: so jim is gon na be doing wiring and you 're gon na give some thought to cabinets ? undergrad d: uh , y yeah . grad a: great . undergrad d: we we need to figure out what we want . uh phd b: we 'd i think undergrad d: hey , what are those green lights doing ? grad a: they 're flashing ! phd b: uh - oh ! uh - oh ! does that it means it means it 's gon na explode . no . undergrad d: cut the red wire , the red wire ! phd b: um grad a: when people talk , it they go on and off . phd b: this so again , washington wants to equip a system . our system , we spent ten thousand dollars on equipment not including the pc . however , seven and a half thousand of that was the wireless mikes . uh , undergrad d: mm - hmm . phd b: using using these undergrad d: and it and the f the five thousand for the wires , so if i 'm gon na do no . phd b: yeah , undergrad d: it 's a joke . phd b: that 's true undergrad d: i have to do phd b: but we have n't spent that , right ? but once we once we 've done the intellectual part of these , uh , we can just knock them out , right ? grad a: cheap . phd b: we can start we you can make a hundred of them or something . undergrad d: oh , of the of the boards ? yeah , yeah , sure , right . phd b: and then we could washington could have a system that did n't have any wireless but would had what 's based on these undergrad d: mm - hmm . phd b: and it would cost grad a: a pc and a peanuts . undergrad d: peanuts . phd b: pc and two thousand dollars for the a - to - d stuff . grad a: yeah . phd b: and that 's about cuz you would n't even need the mixer if you did n't have the oh th the p z undergrad d: right . phd b: p z ms cost a lot . but anyway you 'd save , on the seven seven or eight thousand for the for the wireless system . so actually that might be attractive . undergrad d: right . grad a: good . phd b: ok , i can move my thumb now . postdoc e: that 's a great idea . undergrad d: what ? postdoc e: it 's nice it 's nice to be thinking toward that . undergrad d: oh , i thought like if we talked softer the disk lasts longer . grad a: well , actually shorten phd b: yeah . grad a: there 's a speech compression program that works great on things like this , cuz if the dynamic range is low it encodes it with fewer bits . and so most of the time no one 's talking so it shortens it dramatically . but if you talk quieter , the dynamic range is lower and it will compress better . so . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: oh . hmm . undergrad d: it also helps if you talk in a monotone . grad a: probably . undergrad d: constant volume all the time . postdoc e: oh , interesting . and shorter words . grad a: shorter words . phd c: now , shorter words would n't would induce more dynamics , right ? you want to have phd b: yeah , but if the words are more predictable . grad a: how about if you just go `` uh `` ? phd c: huh . undergrad d: uh . postdoc e: that 's a long word ! grad a: how do you spell that ? postdoc e: i do n't know . grad a: ok , can you do one more round of digits ? are we done talking ? undergrad d: well it 's a choice if we get a choice , let 's keep talking . grad a: do we have more to talk about ? undergrad d: sure . no , i 'm done . phd c: i 'm done . grad a: are you done ? postdoc e: i 'm done , grad a: i 'm done . postdoc e: yeah . phd c: dan is n't but he 's not gon na say anything . undergrad d: but you you you there 's a problem a structural problem with this though . you really need an incentive at the end if you 're gon na do digits again . like , you know , candy bars or something , grad a: i 'll i 'll remember to bring m and m 's next time . undergrad d: or or or or or a little , uh you know , toothbrushes like they give you at the d dentist . phd b: mmm ! postdoc e: or both . undergrad d: or both . phd b: sorry . undergrad d: eric , you and i win . we did n't make any mistakes . grad a: it 's harder at the end than at the beginning . postdoc e: we do n't know that for sure , do we ? grad a: i should have mentioned that s uh , to pause between lines but undergrad d: no , i know . i 'm just giving you a hard time . grad a: it 's it 's only a hard time for the transcriber not for the speech recognizer . phd b: tha - tha postdoc e: but i also think you said channel four grad a: me . postdoc e: and i think you meant microphone four . and i think that 's a mistake . undergrad d: very good . so eric , you win . but the other thing is that there 's a there 's a colon for transcripts . and there should n't be a colon . because see , everything else is stuff you fill in . phd b: yeah , that 's been filled in for you . undergrad d: right ? automatically . phd b: but they 're in order ! undergrad d: but real phd b: they start , six , seven , eight , nine , zero , one , two , three , four , five , six , eight , nine . undergrad d: where 'd they come from ? phd b: and they 're in order because they 're sorted lexically by the file names , which are have the numbers in digits . postdoc e: oh . phd b: and so they 're actually this is like all the all utterances that were generated by speaker mpj or something . postdoc e: oh . phd b: and then within mpj they 're sorted by what he actually said . grad a: ugh ! i did n't know that . i should have randomized it . postdoc e: wow . phd b: it does n't matter ! it 's like cuz you said `` six , seven , eight `` . undergrad d: well , we think it does n't matter . phd b: we think it does n't matter . if i if not i undergrad d: but the real question i have is that , why bother with these ? postdoc e: oh , interesting . undergrad d: why do n't you just ask people to repeat numbers they already know ? like phone numbers , you know , social security numbers . phd b: cuz we have these writt written down , right ? grad a: because right . phd b: that 's why grad a: if we have it , uh undergrad d: i know . postdoc e: social security numbers . undergrad d: i kn grad a: we do n't have to transcribe . phd b: you can you can generate postdoc e: bank account numbers . undergrad d: credit card numbers , grad a: we do n't have to tran undergrad d: yeah . grad a: yeah , please . phd b: yeah . that 's a great idea . postdoc e: passport numbers . undergrad d: yeah , so you just say say your credit card numbers , say your phone numbers , say your mother 's maiden name . grad a: bet we could do it . undergrad d: you know pe postdoc e: password to your account . undergrad d: people off the street . postdoc e: go on . undergrad d: this grad a: actually , this i got this directly from another training set , from aurora . phd b: alright . grad a: so . we can compare directly . phd b: looks good . looks like there were no errors . postdoc e: i was i the reason i made my mistake was grad a: what ? postdoc e: wa - was this ? phd b: there were no there were no direct driver errors , by the look of it , which is good . grad a: great . postdoc e: good news . grad a: ok , the mike 's off . phd b: so i 'm gon na stop it . yeah , ok . postdoc e: ok . grad a: thank you all . undergrad d: mony on the mike . phd b: uh - oh .

the team thought that a certain amount of rewiring was necessary to ensure a stable power supply . they also wanted to ensure that their equipment would not be plugged out . one way to solve this would be to build some sort of cabinet and collect the cables in one spot to avoid clutter .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> marketing: oh right okay . i cover myself up . project manager: i feel like madonna with one of these on . i said i feel like madonna with one of these on . industrial designer: marketing: . project manager: marketing: i 've always wanted one of these , i really have . where do you buy 'em from ? they 're . project manager: user interface: marketing: project manager: right . hello everybody . user interface: hello . project manager: back again for another wonderful meeting . industrial designer: . marketing: project manager: is uh everyone ready ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: almost . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , we c we can hold on for a minute . marketing: oh my gosh . project manager: i figured with the spam thing , if you ca n't beat it , join in . user interface: marketing: user interface: that 's the kind of spam that everybody likes to receive . marketing: industrial designer: mm 'kay . project manager: are you ready ? okay , right , well , i take it that you are all ready now . marketing: project manager: um alright first off we 'll just uh recap from our last meeting . um which was we got together just to basically decide on well to talk about what it is that we were actually uh supposed to be doing , marketing: project manager: and who we all are and stuff like that , mm get bit more of an idea together of what 's going on . um what we are gon na talk about in this meeting is um now that we know what it is that we are doing , now we know that it 's a tv remote and stuff and you guys have just been off doing some some uh r_ and d_ for that , that 's research and development for those that have n't heard that before , user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: see i 'm learning all sorts of new technologi terms in technology today . um yeah , we 're gon na hear your uh th three little presentations , marketing: project manager: whether they be on computer or on the whiteboard or whatever you want . user interface: hmm . do you have any preference uh of order ? project manager: um i 'd like to um hear marketing: project manager: o i 'd like to hear who 's g who 's on the um from from uh catherine actually first . i want what i 'd like to hear about is uh if we 've finally decided on um what sort of energy we 're gon na be using and industrial designer: marketing: batteries . user interface: i think she is still finishing her . industrial designer: no no no no , it 's fine i 'm just preparing . project manager: it 's just that yeah , let 's let 's hear from you first . industrial designer: okay . user interface: hmm . industrial designer: where is that thing ? user interface: okay , it 's uh marketing: it 's here . industrial designer: oh sorry , could n't see . marketing: industrial designer: would that work ? project manager: get yourself in position . industrial designer: okay , so that 's me again . marketing: ah . industrial designer: um so um for the energy sources we can have a basic battery , a hand dynamo which is which was used uh in the fifties for torches , if you remember that kind of which would n't be v would n't be v v project manager: i do n't think any of us remember the fifties . user interface: is it like a crank thing or something . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . it would n't be very fancy . marketing: industrial designer: you can have a kinetic provision of energy , which is used on some watches these days . so if you have just a bit of gentle movement that it will give it the energy to work . marketing: mm . industrial designer: or you can use solar cells , but i 'm not sure about that indoors , really , but user interface: well , there 's sometimes combinations , i mean , like calculators do combinations of battery with but also using some solar power . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: do sol solar panel things , do they have to work from the sun or can they work from a light bulb ? marketing: mm . project manager: does anybody know ? industrial designer: i dunno actually . user interface: uh i think , it has to be on the on the solar energy , but i do n't know . industrial designer: i dunno . um . think the the uh what would cost the less would be the basic battery , really . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and uh if we want something fancier , i think the kinetic provision of energy could be nice , marketing: mm . industrial designer: but i do n't know if it 's worth the cost . so we 've got to discuss that . project manager: mm . okay , jolly good . industrial designer: for the case of the remotes itself , um they can be a general case , which is just a flat one . you can have uh a curved one or a double curved one , if you know what i mean , so project manager: what 's a double curved one ? industrial designer: you know , kind of more ergonomic , that kind of suits the palm of your hand , that kind of thing . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so um then the case material itself , so it can be uh uh either plastic or latex , uh rubber , wood , or titanium . and th for each of them you have uh cases where for example titanium , you ca n't use it for if you if we 're choosing a double curved case , we ca n't choose titanium . and if we are choosing um solar cells then we ca n't choose latex for the case material , so we just have to take that into account . but if we 're choosing just the flat case then we can go for anything . and i think we discussed earlier on the r_ s_ i_ problem thing , so we could uh project manager: so that might be an idea of using the rubber , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: but then it should , you know user interface: let 's have a squeezable remote . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . and also it does n't break as easily maybe , project manager: when a tv programme 's got one industrial designer: i dunno user interface: project manager: watching the match and your team 's just lost , you can fuzz it across the room and it 'll bounce off the wall back at you . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , i like that idea . marketing: mm . industrial designer: so rubber would be okay . marketing: i think rubber 's project manager: rubber , we 're all we 're all going we 're all liking that idea ? you think you can market that ? marketing: but after my after my fashion thing , i think you 'll realise that rubber is more project manager: ooh , we like rubber , ooh . industrial designer: uh s so if d marketing: people . industrial designer: okay . and then there are the push-buttons , so you can have basic push-buttons or a scroll-wheels , like you have on a mouse , um or you could have um lcd , which gives you a display . um scroll buttons , as well . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: so if you use a rubber double curved case , you must use rubber push-buttons . so if we 're going for rubber then we have to decide for the case . um and if we choose double curved then we have to go for rubber push-buttons . project manager: well , we 're gon na go with i think we 've decided that it 's gon na be a rubber case so industrial designer: so it 's a constraint . yeah , but is it a double curved one or not ? if it 's not a double curved , then we 've got the choice for the push-buttons , if it 's a double curve , we 've got ta go for rubber push-buttons . if that makes sense . project manager: push buttons instead of the wheel ? industrial designer: yeah . . user interface: if it 's rubber , is n't it malleable anyway , it does n't matter if it 's double i mean is n't a rubber case , mean it 's completely flexed , i mean , it it flexes to whatever they want it to ? mean so what 's the difference between a normal rubber case and a rubble doub double rubber double curved case ? project manager: rubble double double . industrial designer: no , but na le you see , you 've got , okay , the energy that 's one thing , project manager: i 'll have a big mac , please . industrial designer: then you have the case is uh , whether it 's flat or curved . and that 's we do n't care if it 's rub rubber or not , but then we 've decided that we going for rubber for the case material . so if we 've chosen rub rubber and if now we have the choice for the case whether it 's flat , single curved or double curved . and i 'm just saying if it if we choose it to be double curved then we need to go i dunno why , but we need to go for uh rubber push-buttons . so , either user interface: okay . industrial designer: i dunno we just need to decide on the on the case . project manager: let 's have rubber push buttons , hey . user interface: okay . go rubber . go rubber the whole way . industrial designer: let 's go crazy . and then , do i have a last slide ? yes , i do . um so the push-buttons themselves they can be just simple or they can be so that 's just the electronics between the but behind the push-buttons . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um and the price that go with it with it , so the simple push-buttons are gon na be the cheapest . uh if we get a scroll-wheel , that 's a higher price range . if we get an advanced chip which is um used for the lcd , the display thing , then that 's even more expensive . project manager: simple , yeah . chip on print . it 's a bit . okay , uh what i 'm not understanding here industrial designer: mm . project manager: is uh , okay , advanced chip on print , which i presume is like one p_c_b_ and that 's got all the electronics on one board including the um infra-red sender ? industrial designer: . yeah . marketing: industrial designer: the infra-red . yeah . project manager: right . um what a what alternatives do we have to that ? y um what alternatives do we have to the chip on print ? industrial designer: well , if if it 's not chip on print then , i guess , you get different chip components , and you build them separately and does n't include the infra-red . it 's less expensive mm project manager: so it sounds industrial designer: technically speaking , it 's not as advanced , but it does the job , too . project manager: so , why would we not go for that ? if it 's something that 's inside the the unit . i it does n't affects whether the customer 's gon na buy it or not . industrial designer: fo it does n't , yeah , yeah , yeah . totally . yeah . project manager: um we wan na go for an i i all industrial designer: so let 's not go for the project manager: so long as it works , industrial designer: yeah , yeah . i agree . project manager: you know . so let 's not let 's uh not bother with the chip on print . industrial designer: so it 's either um the scroll-wheel or the push-buttons . project manager: yeah . s yeah , push buttons . marketing: what about the just developed uh sample sensor ? user interface: i think push-buttons is project manager: what about what ? marketing: g there , the sample sensor , sample speaker thing . industrial designer: well project manager: well , what do we need a speaker for in a remote control unit ? marketing: mm , i dunno . be cool . industrial designer: it 'd be it 'd be cool , but they are saying they 've just developed it , user interface: yeah . marketing: channel two . industrial designer: i 'm just guessing . but it 's gon na be the most expensive option , probably and project manager: s user interface: th the the speech recognition um option is it does n't seem really very promising for us uh , project manager: yeah . it 's not something that we wan na t go into with this product . user interface: 'cause uh the yeah the example that they 're already using it for is with the coffee machine , where , basically , you can program a sample wi um that when you say something it will give a response , and you program the response as well . just uh clips of tha that you record yourself . so you can program your coffee-maker that when you say , good morning , to it it says , hello rick , or whatever . project manager: yeah . user interface: but , i mean , it 's not industrial designer: hm . user interface: it would be one thing if it was speech recognition where you say something and it turns the tv on like , turn the tv on , and i turns comes on , but it 's not that . it just gives you a it just gives you a verbal response . marketing: oh , it just gives an answer . user interface: so , yeah , i mean , like what 's the point of saying , hello remote , i mean , hello , how how are you ? marketing: oh , then then project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: just if you are really lonely , maybe . marketing: i thought i thought it was when they said user interface: yeah , if you 're really lonely , it is it 's marketing: i thought when they said , voice recognition , they meant um like , industrial designer: channel five . and then it switches on . marketing: channel five , and it will change . user interface: no , tha that w that w that would be more promising . marketing: like you talk to it . can i have channel five ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: it it 's just a remote that talks to you . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: uh . i mean to certain cues . marketing: oh , then forget about it . oh right okay . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay , so i 'll go back , maybe , to the previous slide and we can decide for each problem , what we should choose . so for the energy source , do we go for the battery or the user interface: 'kay . yeah , i 'm fine with the basic battery . project manager: basic battery . marketing: mm . project manager: it 's cheap , it 's cheerful , it 's worked , does work . user interface: hmm . industrial designer: cheaper option . are you happy with that ? marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: okay . so we 'll go for the battery . then the case , do you want it flat or curved or sing or double curved ? project manager: we were go we were going with the late with the the r_s_i_ rubber , were n't we ? user interface: yeah , so we want it rub rubber double curved . project manager: the the marketing: so it will look like something like this . industrial designer: double ? project manager: the double whopper , please . industrial designer: okay , so then if we use double curved case , then we have to u choose rubber push-buttons , project manager: yep , but we 're going for the simple buttons . user interface: so rubber rubber keys , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and that 's fine ? project manager: and it 's cheapest all round , it sounds kinda funky , and we can also market it industrial designer: p user interface: yeah . project manager: as i 'cause we were s saying earl you were saying earlier in your research that um the the people have the r_ people were getting the complaining about r_s_i_ , and this is anti-r_s_i_ . marketing: . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so that 's another marketing point that we can use . marketing: well the rubber push-buttons . do n't you have to move your project manager: but anything is gon na have buttons . marketing: mm . project manager: even if it 's a jog wheel , it 's still repetitive . you industrial designer: i thought they would give an option of flat buttons or a project manager: you see , you can still get it does you still get repetitive strain injury , whether you are pressing a button or pressing a flat bit of screen . industrial designer: that they do n't . project manager: it 's the v it 's the fact that you are pressing the same doing the same movement . industrial designer: mm . user interface: . project manager: it 's not actually what you are doing . industrial designer: project manager: but the fact that this this rubber i is actually used in these anti-r_s_i_ ps specific marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , the rubber 's good . user interface: we 're giving them a way to burn off steam , basically , yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , so they can sit there and go like user interface: not that watching tv should be that stressful . project manager: and you know , yeah , you can fuzz it across the room and throw it at throw it at your children yeah . marketing: user interface: oh yeah , i guess tv can be stressful , yeah , if you 're watching sports . marketing: industrial designer: alright , that 's me done . project manager: okay , gabriel . let 's um let 's let 's hear from you about the um it 's the interface . user interface: alright . alright . yeah , some of what i have to say ties into what catherine was just talking about . project manager: great . industrial designer: sorry . user interface: okay , so i 'm continuing with the user interface uh topic . and so basically i consulted with our manufacturing division . it sounded like catherine was also speaking with them . uh i also took uh reissa 's marketing findings from the last meeting into consideration um , 'cause i think that 's that 's crucial as far as uh what keys we 're going to inc inclu what buttons we are going to include and and how they 're laid out . project manager: mm . user interface: uh and so the manufacturing division uh sent some some samples of of uh interface components that we might be interested in using that have been used in other products , uh like the coffee machine . so i already mentioned the speech recognition interface . marketing: user interface: i guess , we we basically vetoed that idea . it 's it 's pointless . project manager: mm . user interface: uh it 's just a sample sensor sample output . it would just be probably the most expensive part of our remote without any actual interesting functionality as far as operating the tv . uh so yeah , they they also give the uh they they suggested the idea of using a spinning wheel like you use on the side of an m_p_ three player like ipod . project manager: mm . marketing: mm . user interface: um so we 've already addressed that and i think that would actually be worse for something like r_s_i_ i mean you got that thumb movement that you 're constantly doing . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: um the other suggestion , marketing: that does get annoying . user interface: and i i have a feeling that we 're interested in in something more general , but they suggested uh , you know , going i a little bit into a a niche , like either gearing our remote towards kids , where you could have lot of colours um , the keys might be you know , funny or or , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: or uh something for the elderly , where the remote 's very large and the buttons are very large and there 's only a few buttons . but you know we can we can discuss this , but it sounded like from our last meeting we really wanted something that was general , but done well . project manager: yeah . user interface: uh um so , the key layout and design are really crucial . you do n't want uh you want people to be able to quickly access the buttons that they use a lot without uh always pressing the wrong one um . and i did n't mention that we need a power button in our last i can give you an example here of uh , good layout and bad layout industrial designer: user interface: uh from our manufacturing department . so this would be an example of bad layout , where you have volume up and volume down , but they have a v_ on both of them , so uh project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: it 's sort of confusing for the user . uh this is the example of the giant remote that 's impossible to lose . project manager: do we have an uh example of a good one ? brilliant . industrial designer: marketing: uh-huh . well user interface: and for something for kids . yeah . um . project manager: yeah . user interface: and so , yeah , i th i think my personal preferences of we 've all kind of talked about and seemed to be on the same page um . uh so i was against the speech recognition and against going uh towards anything in in a niche sense . i think it should be more general . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: i did n't i did n't think the spinning-wheel or the uh l_c_ display were were crucial for us . and , yeah , that 's it for me . project manager: okay . well let 's um so w what are our definite decisions on this then as a team ? the um the the um the interface type we 're going for user interface: so we 're we 're not gon na have any sort of display i think uh . project manager: just the simple s simple straight set of buttons . user interface: so , yeah , it 's just gon na be just gon na be push-buttons . um . i think we shall have a limited number of buttons , project manager: yeah . user interface: ideally , i mean a a power , channel up , channel down , volume up , volume down , and a numerical keypad . project manager: yeah . user interface: uh . and some sort of it will either have a a lock button like we mentioned or or a cover or something like that . project manager: yeah . user interface: i guess it 's to the point where we need to decide about that . project manager: okay , and we 're not yeah . user interface: well now that we 've decided on our project manager: are we gon na hav hav an are we d marketing: project manager: have we decided on whether w we 're gon na s supplement it with anything , you know , colours or particular gimmicky bits to it , we 're not we 're just gon na go for something user interface: um it seems like we would n't wan na make it too busy and too sort of gaudy , project manager: we 're marketing: maybe we can user interface: but um yeah , i would say mayb maybe a couple of colours like uh like a black with with yellow and somewhere , like maybe the r_r_ can be yellow , or something like that . project manager: yeah . yeah . okay . okey-dokey . yeah , i do n't have any other questions on this . let 's move over to user interface: i i guess the fact uh also that we are having a rubber case uh would prevent us from having the cover function that we thought of before . project manager: yeah , sure . user interface: i mean , 'cause uh s so if we wan na have a lock of some sort it would have to be a button . project manager: . user interface: but i think that should be i mean um , i can speak with the button department , but uh i think that it should be easy to have a button that just prevents prevents the other uh the other buttons from operating . project manager: yeah , the button that just does that , yeah . user interface: so that should be simple . project manager: cool . marketing: right . well , i 'm just basically letting you know what 's happening in the markets project manager: mm yeah . marketing: and what the fashions are for next year . um . so yes , so from looking at this year 's trends and fashions project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and also recent investigation that we 've done in the remote control market , we have found that for the remote control market these are like most important aspects like that we really need to project manager: marketing: which we 've already probably discussed . um the most important aspect is look and feel . so the remote control has to look and feel fancier than the ones that already that we already have . so it has to be project manager: yeah , why should people buy this when they 're already got a remote that came with the tv ? marketing: yep . user interface: mm . marketing: exactly . user interface: yeah . marketing: um second , uh it should be technologically innovative innovative . so project manager: what 's that mean ? marketing: technologically it should be like um work , basically , i guess . it should work . user interface: well it should be it should be maybe cutting edge in some sense , marketing: should user interface: i mean have something that 's little more technologically advanced than what 's on the market . marketing: that 's new . project manager: okay , now the trouble is is we 've already decided that we 're going with the stuff that works already , that 's cheap . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . actually , i mean , these first two points we 've already sort of gone away from , marketing: yeah . user interface: 'cause our rubber one is not fancy project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: i mean it 's different , but i would n't say like a rubber remote is fancy . if that 's what people want then we maybe we 're going in the wrong direction . and it 's it 's not technologically innovative either . project manager: maybe we could um marketing: so , no loose user interface: mm . marketing: that 's why i was thinking , bluetooth , 'cause if you like put up bluetooth , and it 's like a bluetooth remote control , everybody 's gon na like , oh , 'cause bluetooth is the in thing nowadays , like it really is , like people and um when it comes to marketing like that 's what people go for , they do n't really care whether , you know , at the end of the day whether it works properly or not . project manager: of course , they do . marketing: well , they do , but it 's like it 's not project manager: one hundred per cent , that 's your first thing , you go , oh i 'm not gon na buy that , 'cause i dunno if it works or not . marketing: yeah , but it looks good . if it looks good and it 's it can just be there for decoration . project manager: okay , well , what do you two think about this ? user interface: so is is the advantage of bluetooth that you can just like synchronise it with other marketing: but like project manager: yeah , what i do n't understand what m user interface: electronics ? marketing: you could always insert , yeah . user interface: yeah , that 's basically what it allows you to do , project manager: yeah , user interface: right ? project manager: and it this is just gon na all this is being used for is your television . marketing: yeah , but , i mean , people like project manager: it would that would mean you 'd need a television that has bluetooth in it , which no no television does , marketing: well , if you 're looking at if you looking at something that 's going to be bought by people , you have to make it new , you have to make it state of the art . industrial designer: well project manager: does it ? that would mean we 'd have to make a television as well . industrial designer: bluetooth would , for example , enable you , i think , to um um connect for example you if you get a w call on your mobile phone , but your mobile phone is downstairs or something , you would get on your television you 're being called by this person right now . things like that . project manager: no , that would be your telephone in with your television . industrial designer: no i user interface: yeah , the that would n't be the remote so much , project manager: yeah , user interface: i mean project manager: and i industrial designer: no , but if you get bluetooth on the remote , you 'd be able to project manager: nah , the televi the television would have to be a bluetooth compatible , basically . industrial designer: i with the television , yeah . i was just trying to find an advantage . wha what w what advantage would you get for the user interface: mm . marketing: well , it does n't project manager: an and there is no there is no such thing marketing: like it does n't have to be , you know , bluetooth , that was just an idea , but like it needs do something that , you know , is new . whether it 's a battery it could be something really really minor , you know , like but i think we are really keeping to what is already out there , and people 've already seen it , people 've already got it . project manager: okay . marketing: if we want something new , we need to move away from what we already have and um just go creative . industrial designer: maybe the kinetic mo provision of energy then . it 's been done for watches , but i have n't seen that for remotes , yet . project manager: okay . yeah , this that 's that 's very good . marketing: and then you can market it . never have to change a battery again . industrial designer: change the batteries ever again . project manager: and and this is all tying in very nicely . marketing: project manager: the fact that it 's made out of this rubber , we can throw it about . th we should encourage people to throw their remote controls about , because it charges itself up by doing it . industrial designer: yeah , well , and in little characters you say , yeah , but not too much . user interface: yes , so can project manager: but yeah , by the squeezing it the marketing: i think , safety s user interface: yeah , we can make the squeezing of the rubber be the be the generating like the energy generator . project manager: yeah , that 's a great idea . well done . marketing: yeah . third most important aspect uh is it 's easy to use . user interface: we 're all about that . marketing: and i think we 've all um worked that out . um okay , in the fashion , how it 's supposed to look . next year 's fashion i very much in fruit and vegetables are thm are like the theme for cloths , shoes and furniture . so next year people will be buying , i found this really funny , you know , strawberry shaped chairs , industrial designer: user interface: okay , so we could have keys that are like a b like a broccoli key and a uh and an avocado key on them . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: i wan na watch the pineapple channel . marketing: rubber things . um and as it 's rubber the feel which is in this year is spongy , so it 's it 's not quite spongy , but spongy , i would say is user interface: . project manager: well spongy , that 's where . yeah , we 're we 're ahead of the game there . user interface: yeah , that 's great for us . marketing: yeah , so we 're in . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . and so personal what i was just saying like move away from the current remote controls uh like the look and the feel of the current ones and change the look and feel , while still keeping to the company 's image , basically . so yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: . i had to say user interface: right . marketing: so we 're moving in the right direction like project manager: alright , yeah , no , this i this is good , user interface: yeah . project manager: so through all that we 've we go we 're right , we 're gon na go go back to um going with the kinetic thing , industrial designer: yep . user interface: yeah , that 's great . project manager: that 's great , using the spongy rubber that we were talking about that anti-r_s_i_ you can as you squeeze it you are not only therapeuticising yourself , you are charging the batteries , marketing: mm . project manager: and um i 'm not sure about the buttons being in the shape of fruit though . industrial designer: no vegetables . marketing: user interface: yeah , i do n't know how we incorporate project manager: . marketing: user interface: we do n't have to follow every trend , i guess . marketing: maybe make it like fruity colours or something . user interface: uh-huh . marketing: some sort . or user interface: the power button could be like a big apple or something . marketing: mm . industrial designer: well yeah , but apple would sue you for that . marketing: project manager: yeah , this is true . user interface: they don they do n't own all images of apples . project manager: industrial designer: sued the beatles so user interface: okay , we 'll make it a uh pomegranate , a big pomegranate . industrial designer: project manager: well , okay , it seems like the only thing that we have n't really finally um agreed on is its image . like , yeah , we 're we 're saying no we do n't want it to be fruit and vegetables , but we dunno what it should be , user interface: . project manager: or like are we going yeah it looks slick , but what do what do we mean by slick sort of thing ? marketing: well i think , if it 's rubber it needs to be project manager: i mean you said earlier on i it should be funky . marketing: different . i think , it 's it should be i mean , what do you associate with rubber ? you know like project manager: l keep it clean , keep it clean . marketing: really different colours basically . industrial designer: marketing: okay , sor i sorry , i used the wrong word , what do you associate with the mate the material that material ? um industrial designer: marketing: um like i 'm just thinking bright colours . user interface: yeah . marketing: bright natural colours , nothing too project manager: bright , but not too bright . marketing: bright , but too not yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: like no lime green or bright yellow or bright pink . wan na make it different colours so anybody can choo like like project manager: like the volume buttons should be the all the same colour and the d and the the channel buttons should be one colour and stuff like that , do you mean ? user interface: mm . marketing: yeah . and on the back of it have the logo . project manager: okay , what ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: sure . industrial designer: why not ? project manager: okay . tha user interface: the one thing i 'm wondering about , i hope that we 're not going like too much down a gimmicky road of of having project manager: yeah , i mean we that 's we we user interface: i mean if somebody go goes into the store they 're gon na see like three or four normal remotes , and then a big spongy pink t tomato uh remote . marketing: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: this is the remote control tomato . user interface: i mean what are ninety per cent of people gon na take ? marketing: well i can say in this country , you 'll get , you know , lots of people wanting something really funky and cool . like and kids will be walking in with their parents saying , mummy i wan na buy that one . project manager: marketing: and uh parents will see the will see the pro as well , because it 's um like kids wo n't break it , it 's not breakable if you throw it around . project manager: yeah . marketing: especially with younger kids , you know they can pick it up and and yeah . the only thing is is that really small kids might chew on it , but project manager: well , it 's it 's got ta be chew proof . user interface: marketing: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: i 'm gon na write that down . marketing: so user interface: marketing: so it 's rea it 's quite project manager: marketing: it 's quite like um user friendly industrial designer: marketing: and also for different families , like like family use as well , so for little kids and for old ki like teenagers will like it , i think . especially maybe younger girls if it 's in pink they 'll be like pink remote control for their room something . project manager: so , what are you saying , maybe we should market it in different colours for different marketing: yeah . project manager: so we could do like the pink range , the blue range , the green range , the industrial designer: that 's yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: so like you walk in , you 're like , oh i like that remote control , because it 's so bright , and then , and then the shop assistant comes up and says , oh what colour would you like ? and then they go like , oh i can choose the colour wow . so it puts , i think , even the customer into more control over what they 're buying instead of , you 've got all colour it 's either that or nothing . so they also get to pick . well , personally i like walking into a shop and choosing a colour . user interface: yeah i mean , that that seems to work well with for products like ipod , marketing: it 's um user interface: where , you know , you have a variety of colours , that people feel like they 're customising it when they buy it , even , you know , just just by the fact of choosing . project manager: mm . marketing: yeah . mm . industrial designer: although i 'd be curious to see how many uh marketing: d you 've got the industrial designer: you know , there are some colours that i wouldn i would never choose , and i would be curious how many people choose that colour . project manager: well that 's that can be down to bit of market researching you know , user interface: right . project manager: if that 's easy enough to find out what colours are more popular . industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and produce less of the silly colours , maybe . project manager: mm . industrial designer: project manager: okay . alright . well um , we 'll alright let 's what we 're gon na aim to get together by the next meeting then um is from you catherine wi your y y you know you 're gon na be working on the the look and feel design . industrial designer: yep . project manager: um gabriel , you 're gon na be working on , you know come up with the the user interface design . then basically , you two are gon na be working together on this . you wo n't be going off to your separate offices . industrial designer: alright . user interface: okay . project manager: um and i think you are gon na get a chance to play with some clay . user interface: oh right . project manager: i think , yeah , it 's gon na you know , industrial designer: mm . project manager: come up ki you know , be ab for the next meeting be able to come in and show us some some i some physical ideas . 'cause at the moment , uh you know , it 's it 's hard . industrial designer: cool . project manager: we were kinda going , yeah , it 's got ta feel nice , it 's got ta look cool and that it 's industrial designer: it is . user interface: yeah . project manager: you know now we can actually start , you know , s some sort of physical something or other . user interface: that sounds good . project manager: um and you 're gon na be working on the product evaluation . marketing: evaluation . project manager: um . and i will be uh industrial designer: marketing: project manager: talking to the bosses , basically , and uh marketing: project manager: f fielding off some more spam and uh industrial designer: great . project manager: that 's it really . keeping things t well , uh you know , ho hopefully uh keeping things together . um . yeah , that 's this is this is uh good . so we know for definite we know we 've we 've now got some definite things going on . we definitely know how it 's powered , user interface: mm . project manager: we definitely know that um it 's gon na be a simple buttons , we 're not gon na be going for the new technological chip on print expensive things , so we 've we 're keeping the costs down . it 's this rubber casing that we can sell as um fun and funky . do n't know of any other remote controls that are made out of this stuff . marketing: mm . project manager: people , you know , people are saying , oh , standard stuff gives you repetitive strain injury , well this remote control is designed to do the complete opposite , marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's supposed to fix it rather than cause it . um . you know , we 're gon na we we 're gon na as a sort of extra something on it , you know what what extra things are there extra things this product have ? we 'll look into this lock key user interface: right . project manager: facility , although whether or not it happens , or is possible , i do n't know , but something to look into . okay . i think that 's um well done everybody . anyone have any uh any questions , user interface: alright . project manager: everyone know what they 're doing ? 'cause if you do n't , you 'll i 'm sure you 'll soon get an e-mail about it . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . marketing: user interface: mm , i think we all know what we need to do now . marketing: s this gives you all the details ? project manager: okay . right well . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's um we 're we 've still couple of minutes until our meeting 's due to finish . but um i got a note saying that you two who are gon na be working together marketing: project manager: so bef before you all disappear off just user interface: okay , i 'll stay in here . marketing: um . user interface: project manager: hold hold fire . um . user interface: does the pay-raise immediately come into effect on our next pay-check , or is that project manager: um i think , it 's uh , yeah , i think , it 's gon na be par part more of a profit sharing on the product . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: so we 're buying fut i mean , we 're getting futures in the company . project manager: yeah , i think i i think that 's i think that 's the way it 's gon na happen at the moment . user interface: so we really have a incentive to make this remote work . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: i 'd like to share in the coffee machine profits , because that 's really doing well . project manager: i want a share in the space rocket . did you see that this k that this company we 've made a spaceship . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . . marketing: yeah . user interface: this company has its its fingers in a lot of different pots . marketing: project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: yeah , we 're definitely not in the money making department . marketing: project manager: . user interface: well i i did notice looking at i mean , they told you that they wanted whatev our product to represent the the r_r_ brand and and to be immediately noticeable . project manager: yeah . user interface: i mean , if you look like at the coffee maker at the at the corporate web page , it 's not obvious . marketing: mm . user interface: r_r_ . well it is to us , because we we worked worked here for years and we use that coffee machine , but it 's does n't have the colour scheme of of the of the company anywhere on it obviously it 's just sil silver and black . project manager: mm . industrial designer: that 's true . project manager: and the spaceship does n't have the r_ have a massive r_ and r_ down the side of it user interface: no . industrial designer: does n't project manager: but i still want one . user interface: mm . project manager: okay . um i 've just had a sign flashing up saying , finish the meeting . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh . user interface: okay . project manager: yeah . user interface: right , well , i guess that 's us . project manager: yeah . it 's not telling it 's not saying do anything in particular just yet . so maybe you should go back to your own offices . user interface: okay . right . industrial designer: are we taking these off ? project manager: yeah . yeah , it says you two { disfmarker }

this meeting is mainly about three presentations from three team members to talk about what the team is supposed to be doing . first , it was the industrial designer 's presentation on energy source and case material ; then , user interface introduced potential buttons , the layout design , and the color of the remote control ; and at last , marketing made a presentation on three important marketing points that the team should pay attention to , which are fancy appearance , innovative technology and user-friendliness . various discussions went on among team members concerning their presentations .

what did the group discuss about industrial designer 's presentation on energy source and case material design of the remote control ? </s> marketing: oh right okay . i cover myself up . project manager: i feel like madonna with one of these on . i said i feel like madonna with one of these on . industrial designer: marketing: . project manager: marketing: i 've always wanted one of these , i really have . where do you buy 'em from ? they 're . project manager: user interface: marketing: project manager: right . hello everybody . user interface: hello . project manager: back again for another wonderful meeting . industrial designer: . marketing: project manager: is uh everyone ready ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: almost . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , we c we can hold on for a minute . marketing: oh my gosh . project manager: i figured with the spam thing , if you ca n't beat it , join in . user interface: marketing: user interface: that 's the kind of spam that everybody likes to receive . marketing: industrial designer: mm 'kay . project manager: are you ready ? okay , right , well , i take it that you are all ready now . marketing: project manager: um alright first off we 'll just uh recap from our last meeting . um which was we got together just to basically decide on well to talk about what it is that we were actually uh supposed to be doing , marketing: project manager: and who we all are and stuff like that , mm get bit more of an idea together of what 's going on . um what we are gon na talk about in this meeting is um now that we know what it is that we are doing , now we know that it 's a tv remote and stuff and you guys have just been off doing some some uh r_ and d_ for that , that 's research and development for those that have n't heard that before , user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: see i 'm learning all sorts of new technologi terms in technology today . um yeah , we 're gon na hear your uh th three little presentations , marketing: project manager: whether they be on computer or on the whiteboard or whatever you want . user interface: hmm . do you have any preference uh of order ? project manager: um i 'd like to um hear marketing: project manager: o i 'd like to hear who 's g who 's on the um from from uh catherine actually first . i want what i 'd like to hear about is uh if we 've finally decided on um what sort of energy we 're gon na be using and industrial designer: marketing: batteries . user interface: i think she is still finishing her . industrial designer: no no no no , it 's fine i 'm just preparing . project manager: it 's just that yeah , let 's let 's hear from you first . industrial designer: okay . user interface: hmm . industrial designer: where is that thing ? user interface: okay , it 's uh marketing: it 's here . industrial designer: oh sorry , could n't see . marketing: industrial designer: would that work ? project manager: get yourself in position . industrial designer: okay , so that 's me again . marketing: ah . industrial designer: um so um for the energy sources we can have a basic battery , a hand dynamo which is which was used uh in the fifties for torches , if you remember that kind of which would n't be v would n't be v v project manager: i do n't think any of us remember the fifties . user interface: is it like a crank thing or something . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . it would n't be very fancy . marketing: industrial designer: you can have a kinetic provision of energy , which is used on some watches these days . so if you have just a bit of gentle movement that it will give it the energy to work . marketing: mm . industrial designer: or you can use solar cells , but i 'm not sure about that indoors , really , but user interface: well , there 's sometimes combinations , i mean , like calculators do combinations of battery with but also using some solar power . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: do sol solar panel things , do they have to work from the sun or can they work from a light bulb ? marketing: mm . project manager: does anybody know ? industrial designer: i dunno actually . user interface: uh i think , it has to be on the on the solar energy , but i do n't know . industrial designer: i dunno . um . think the the uh what would cost the less would be the basic battery , really . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and uh if we want something fancier , i think the kinetic provision of energy could be nice , marketing: mm . industrial designer: but i do n't know if it 's worth the cost . so we 've got to discuss that . project manager: mm . okay , jolly good . industrial designer: for the case of the remotes itself , um they can be a general case , which is just a flat one . you can have uh a curved one or a double curved one , if you know what i mean , so project manager: what 's a double curved one ? industrial designer: you know , kind of more ergonomic , that kind of suits the palm of your hand , that kind of thing . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so um then the case material itself , so it can be uh uh either plastic or latex , uh rubber , wood , or titanium . and th for each of them you have uh cases where for example titanium , you ca n't use it for if you if we 're choosing a double curved case , we ca n't choose titanium . and if we are choosing um solar cells then we ca n't choose latex for the case material , so we just have to take that into account . but if we 're choosing just the flat case then we can go for anything . and i think we discussed earlier on the r_ s_ i_ problem thing , so we could uh project manager: so that might be an idea of using the rubber , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: but then it should , you know user interface: let 's have a squeezable remote . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . and also it does n't break as easily maybe , project manager: when a tv programme 's got one industrial designer: i dunno user interface: project manager: watching the match and your team 's just lost , you can fuzz it across the room and it 'll bounce off the wall back at you . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , i like that idea . marketing: mm . industrial designer: so rubber would be okay . marketing: i think rubber 's project manager: rubber , we 're all we 're all going we 're all liking that idea ? you think you can market that ? marketing: but after my after my fashion thing , i think you 'll realise that rubber is more project manager: ooh , we like rubber , ooh . industrial designer: uh s so if d marketing: people . industrial designer: okay . and then there are the push-buttons , so you can have basic push-buttons or a scroll-wheels , like you have on a mouse , um or you could have um lcd , which gives you a display . um scroll buttons , as well . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: so if you use a rubber double curved case , you must use rubber push-buttons . so if we 're going for rubber then we have to decide for the case . um and if we choose double curved then we have to go for rubber push-buttons . project manager: well , we 're gon na go with i think we 've decided that it 's gon na be a rubber case so industrial designer: so it 's a constraint . yeah , but is it a double curved one or not ? if it 's not a double curved , then we 've got the choice for the push-buttons , if it 's a double curve , we 've got ta go for rubber push-buttons . if that makes sense . project manager: push buttons instead of the wheel ? industrial designer: yeah . . user interface: if it 's rubber , is n't it malleable anyway , it does n't matter if it 's double i mean is n't a rubber case , mean it 's completely flexed , i mean , it it flexes to whatever they want it to ? mean so what 's the difference between a normal rubber case and a rubble doub double rubber double curved case ? project manager: rubble double double . industrial designer: no , but na le you see , you 've got , okay , the energy that 's one thing , project manager: i 'll have a big mac , please . industrial designer: then you have the case is uh , whether it 's flat or curved . and that 's we do n't care if it 's rub rubber or not , but then we 've decided that we going for rubber for the case material . so if we 've chosen rub rubber and if now we have the choice for the case whether it 's flat , single curved or double curved . and i 'm just saying if it if we choose it to be double curved then we need to go i dunno why , but we need to go for uh rubber push-buttons . so , either user interface: okay . industrial designer: i dunno we just need to decide on the on the case . project manager: let 's have rubber push buttons , hey . user interface: okay . go rubber . go rubber the whole way . industrial designer: let 's go crazy . and then , do i have a last slide ? yes , i do . um so the push-buttons themselves they can be just simple or they can be so that 's just the electronics between the but behind the push-buttons . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um and the price that go with it with it , so the simple push-buttons are gon na be the cheapest . uh if we get a scroll-wheel , that 's a higher price range . if we get an advanced chip which is um used for the lcd , the display thing , then that 's even more expensive . project manager: simple , yeah . chip on print . it 's a bit . okay , uh what i 'm not understanding here industrial designer: mm . project manager: is uh , okay , advanced chip on print , which i presume is like one p_c_b_ and that 's got all the electronics on one board including the um infra-red sender ? industrial designer: . yeah . marketing: industrial designer: the infra-red . yeah . project manager: right . um what a what alternatives do we have to that ? y um what alternatives do we have to the chip on print ? industrial designer: well , if if it 's not chip on print then , i guess , you get different chip components , and you build them separately and does n't include the infra-red . it 's less expensive mm project manager: so it sounds industrial designer: technically speaking , it 's not as advanced , but it does the job , too . project manager: so , why would we not go for that ? if it 's something that 's inside the the unit . i it does n't affects whether the customer 's gon na buy it or not . industrial designer: fo it does n't , yeah , yeah , yeah . totally . yeah . project manager: um we wan na go for an i i all industrial designer: so let 's not go for the project manager: so long as it works , industrial designer: yeah , yeah . i agree . project manager: you know . so let 's not let 's uh not bother with the chip on print . industrial designer: so it 's either um the scroll-wheel or the push-buttons . project manager: yeah . s yeah , push buttons . marketing: what about the just developed uh sample sensor ? user interface: i think push-buttons is project manager: what about what ? marketing: g there , the sample sensor , sample speaker thing . industrial designer: well project manager: well , what do we need a speaker for in a remote control unit ? marketing: mm , i dunno . be cool . industrial designer: it 'd be it 'd be cool , but they are saying they 've just developed it , user interface: yeah . marketing: channel two . industrial designer: i 'm just guessing . but it 's gon na be the most expensive option , probably and project manager: s user interface: th the the speech recognition um option is it does n't seem really very promising for us uh , project manager: yeah . it 's not something that we wan na t go into with this product . user interface: 'cause uh the yeah the example that they 're already using it for is with the coffee machine , where , basically , you can program a sample wi um that when you say something it will give a response , and you program the response as well . just uh clips of tha that you record yourself . so you can program your coffee-maker that when you say , good morning , to it it says , hello rick , or whatever . project manager: yeah . user interface: but , i mean , it 's not industrial designer: hm . user interface: it would be one thing if it was speech recognition where you say something and it turns the tv on like , turn the tv on , and i turns comes on , but it 's not that . it just gives you a it just gives you a verbal response . marketing: oh , it just gives an answer . user interface: so , yeah , i mean , like what 's the point of saying , hello remote , i mean , hello , how how are you ? marketing: oh , then then project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: just if you are really lonely , maybe . marketing: i thought i thought it was when they said user interface: yeah , if you 're really lonely , it is it 's marketing: i thought when they said , voice recognition , they meant um like , industrial designer: channel five . and then it switches on . marketing: channel five , and it will change . user interface: no , tha that w that w that would be more promising . marketing: like you talk to it . can i have channel five ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: it it 's just a remote that talks to you . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: uh . i mean to certain cues . marketing: oh , then forget about it . oh right okay . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay , so i 'll go back , maybe , to the previous slide and we can decide for each problem , what we should choose . so for the energy source , do we go for the battery or the user interface: 'kay . yeah , i 'm fine with the basic battery . project manager: basic battery . marketing: mm . project manager: it 's cheap , it 's cheerful , it 's worked , does work . user interface: hmm . industrial designer: cheaper option . are you happy with that ? marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: okay . so we 'll go for the battery . then the case , do you want it flat or curved or sing or double curved ? project manager: we were go we were going with the late with the the r_s_i_ rubber , were n't we ? user interface: yeah , so we want it rub rubber double curved . project manager: the the marketing: so it will look like something like this . industrial designer: double ? project manager: the double whopper , please . industrial designer: okay , so then if we use double curved case , then we have to u choose rubber push-buttons , project manager: yep , but we 're going for the simple buttons . user interface: so rubber rubber keys , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and that 's fine ? project manager: and it 's cheapest all round , it sounds kinda funky , and we can also market it industrial designer: p user interface: yeah . project manager: as i 'cause we were s saying earl you were saying earlier in your research that um the the people have the r_ people were getting the complaining about r_s_i_ , and this is anti-r_s_i_ . marketing: . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so that 's another marketing point that we can use . marketing: well the rubber push-buttons . do n't you have to move your project manager: but anything is gon na have buttons . marketing: mm . project manager: even if it 's a jog wheel , it 's still repetitive . you industrial designer: i thought they would give an option of flat buttons or a project manager: you see , you can still get it does you still get repetitive strain injury , whether you are pressing a button or pressing a flat bit of screen . industrial designer: that they do n't . project manager: it 's the v it 's the fact that you are pressing the same doing the same movement . industrial designer: mm . user interface: . project manager: it 's not actually what you are doing . industrial designer: project manager: but the fact that this this rubber i is actually used in these anti-r_s_i_ ps specific marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , the rubber 's good . user interface: we 're giving them a way to burn off steam , basically , yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , so they can sit there and go like user interface: not that watching tv should be that stressful . project manager: and you know , yeah , you can fuzz it across the room and throw it at throw it at your children yeah . marketing: user interface: oh yeah , i guess tv can be stressful , yeah , if you 're watching sports . marketing: industrial designer: alright , that 's me done . project manager: okay , gabriel . let 's um let 's let 's hear from you about the um it 's the interface . user interface: alright . alright . yeah , some of what i have to say ties into what catherine was just talking about . project manager: great . industrial designer: sorry . user interface: okay , so i 'm continuing with the user interface uh topic . and so basically i consulted with our manufacturing division . it sounded like catherine was also speaking with them . uh i also took uh reissa 's marketing findings from the last meeting into consideration um , 'cause i think that 's that 's crucial as far as uh what keys we 're going to inc inclu what buttons we are going to include and and how they 're laid out . project manager: mm . user interface: uh and so the manufacturing division uh sent some some samples of of uh interface components that we might be interested in using that have been used in other products , uh like the coffee machine . so i already mentioned the speech recognition interface . marketing: user interface: i guess , we we basically vetoed that idea . it 's it 's pointless . project manager: mm . user interface: uh it 's just a sample sensor sample output . it would just be probably the most expensive part of our remote without any actual interesting functionality as far as operating the tv . uh so yeah , they they also give the uh they they suggested the idea of using a spinning wheel like you use on the side of an m_p_ three player like ipod . project manager: mm . marketing: mm . user interface: um so we 've already addressed that and i think that would actually be worse for something like r_s_i_ i mean you got that thumb movement that you 're constantly doing . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: um the other suggestion , marketing: that does get annoying . user interface: and i i have a feeling that we 're interested in in something more general , but they suggested uh , you know , going i a little bit into a a niche , like either gearing our remote towards kids , where you could have lot of colours um , the keys might be you know , funny or or , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: or uh something for the elderly , where the remote 's very large and the buttons are very large and there 's only a few buttons . but you know we can we can discuss this , but it sounded like from our last meeting we really wanted something that was general , but done well . project manager: yeah . user interface: uh um so , the key layout and design are really crucial . you do n't want uh you want people to be able to quickly access the buttons that they use a lot without uh always pressing the wrong one um . and i did n't mention that we need a power button in our last i can give you an example here of uh , good layout and bad layout industrial designer: user interface: uh from our manufacturing department . so this would be an example of bad layout , where you have volume up and volume down , but they have a v_ on both of them , so uh project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: it 's sort of confusing for the user . uh this is the example of the giant remote that 's impossible to lose . project manager: do we have an uh example of a good one ? brilliant . industrial designer: marketing: uh-huh . well user interface: and for something for kids . yeah . um . project manager: yeah . user interface: and so , yeah , i th i think my personal preferences of we 've all kind of talked about and seemed to be on the same page um . uh so i was against the speech recognition and against going uh towards anything in in a niche sense . i think it should be more general . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: i did n't i did n't think the spinning-wheel or the uh l_c_ display were were crucial for us . and , yeah , that 's it for me . project manager: okay . well let 's um so w what are our definite decisions on this then as a team ? the um the the um the interface type we 're going for user interface: so we 're we 're not gon na have any sort of display i think uh . project manager: just the simple s simple straight set of buttons . user interface: so , yeah , it 's just gon na be just gon na be push-buttons . um . i think we shall have a limited number of buttons , project manager: yeah . user interface: ideally , i mean a a power , channel up , channel down , volume up , volume down , and a numerical keypad . project manager: yeah . user interface: uh . and some sort of it will either have a a lock button like we mentioned or or a cover or something like that . project manager: yeah . user interface: i guess it 's to the point where we need to decide about that . project manager: okay , and we 're not yeah . user interface: well now that we 've decided on our project manager: are we gon na hav hav an are we d marketing: project manager: have we decided on whether w we 're gon na s supplement it with anything , you know , colours or particular gimmicky bits to it , we 're not we 're just gon na go for something user interface: um it seems like we would n't wan na make it too busy and too sort of gaudy , project manager: we 're marketing: maybe we can user interface: but um yeah , i would say mayb maybe a couple of colours like uh like a black with with yellow and somewhere , like maybe the r_r_ can be yellow , or something like that . project manager: yeah . yeah . okay . okey-dokey . yeah , i do n't have any other questions on this . let 's move over to user interface: i i guess the fact uh also that we are having a rubber case uh would prevent us from having the cover function that we thought of before . project manager: yeah , sure . user interface: i mean , 'cause uh s so if we wan na have a lock of some sort it would have to be a button . project manager: . user interface: but i think that should be i mean um , i can speak with the button department , but uh i think that it should be easy to have a button that just prevents prevents the other uh the other buttons from operating . project manager: yeah , the button that just does that , yeah . user interface: so that should be simple . project manager: cool . marketing: right . well , i 'm just basically letting you know what 's happening in the markets project manager: mm yeah . marketing: and what the fashions are for next year . um . so yes , so from looking at this year 's trends and fashions project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and also recent investigation that we 've done in the remote control market , we have found that for the remote control market these are like most important aspects like that we really need to project manager: marketing: which we 've already probably discussed . um the most important aspect is look and feel . so the remote control has to look and feel fancier than the ones that already that we already have . so it has to be project manager: yeah , why should people buy this when they 're already got a remote that came with the tv ? marketing: yep . user interface: mm . marketing: exactly . user interface: yeah . marketing: um second , uh it should be technologically innovative innovative . so project manager: what 's that mean ? marketing: technologically it should be like um work , basically , i guess . it should work . user interface: well it should be it should be maybe cutting edge in some sense , marketing: should user interface: i mean have something that 's little more technologically advanced than what 's on the market . marketing: that 's new . project manager: okay , now the trouble is is we 've already decided that we 're going with the stuff that works already , that 's cheap . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . actually , i mean , these first two points we 've already sort of gone away from , marketing: yeah . user interface: 'cause our rubber one is not fancy project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: i mean it 's different , but i would n't say like a rubber remote is fancy . if that 's what people want then we maybe we 're going in the wrong direction . and it 's it 's not technologically innovative either . project manager: maybe we could um marketing: so , no loose user interface: mm . marketing: that 's why i was thinking , bluetooth , 'cause if you like put up bluetooth , and it 's like a bluetooth remote control , everybody 's gon na like , oh , 'cause bluetooth is the in thing nowadays , like it really is , like people and um when it comes to marketing like that 's what people go for , they do n't really care whether , you know , at the end of the day whether it works properly or not . project manager: of course , they do . marketing: well , they do , but it 's like it 's not project manager: one hundred per cent , that 's your first thing , you go , oh i 'm not gon na buy that , 'cause i dunno if it works or not . marketing: yeah , but it looks good . if it looks good and it 's it can just be there for decoration . project manager: okay , well , what do you two think about this ? user interface: so is is the advantage of bluetooth that you can just like synchronise it with other marketing: but like project manager: yeah , what i do n't understand what m user interface: electronics ? marketing: you could always insert , yeah . user interface: yeah , that 's basically what it allows you to do , project manager: yeah , user interface: right ? project manager: and it this is just gon na all this is being used for is your television . marketing: yeah , but , i mean , people like project manager: it would that would mean you 'd need a television that has bluetooth in it , which no no television does , marketing: well , if you 're looking at if you looking at something that 's going to be bought by people , you have to make it new , you have to make it state of the art . industrial designer: well project manager: does it ? that would mean we 'd have to make a television as well . industrial designer: bluetooth would , for example , enable you , i think , to um um connect for example you if you get a w call on your mobile phone , but your mobile phone is downstairs or something , you would get on your television you 're being called by this person right now . things like that . project manager: no , that would be your telephone in with your television . industrial designer: no i user interface: yeah , the that would n't be the remote so much , project manager: yeah , user interface: i mean project manager: and i industrial designer: no , but if you get bluetooth on the remote , you 'd be able to project manager: nah , the televi the television would have to be a bluetooth compatible , basically . industrial designer: i with the television , yeah . i was just trying to find an advantage . wha what w what advantage would you get for the user interface: mm . marketing: well , it does n't project manager: an and there is no there is no such thing marketing: like it does n't have to be , you know , bluetooth , that was just an idea , but like it needs do something that , you know , is new . whether it 's a battery it could be something really really minor , you know , like but i think we are really keeping to what is already out there , and people 've already seen it , people 've already got it . project manager: okay . marketing: if we want something new , we need to move away from what we already have and um just go creative . industrial designer: maybe the kinetic mo provision of energy then . it 's been done for watches , but i have n't seen that for remotes , yet . project manager: okay . yeah , this that 's that 's very good . marketing: and then you can market it . never have to change a battery again . industrial designer: change the batteries ever again . project manager: and and this is all tying in very nicely . marketing: project manager: the fact that it 's made out of this rubber , we can throw it about . th we should encourage people to throw their remote controls about , because it charges itself up by doing it . industrial designer: yeah , well , and in little characters you say , yeah , but not too much . user interface: yes , so can project manager: but yeah , by the squeezing it the marketing: i think , safety s user interface: yeah , we can make the squeezing of the rubber be the be the generating like the energy generator . project manager: yeah , that 's a great idea . well done . marketing: yeah . third most important aspect uh is it 's easy to use . user interface: we 're all about that . marketing: and i think we 've all um worked that out . um okay , in the fashion , how it 's supposed to look . next year 's fashion i very much in fruit and vegetables are thm are like the theme for cloths , shoes and furniture . so next year people will be buying , i found this really funny , you know , strawberry shaped chairs , industrial designer: user interface: okay , so we could have keys that are like a b like a broccoli key and a uh and an avocado key on them . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: i wan na watch the pineapple channel . marketing: rubber things . um and as it 's rubber the feel which is in this year is spongy , so it 's it 's not quite spongy , but spongy , i would say is user interface: . project manager: well spongy , that 's where . yeah , we 're we 're ahead of the game there . user interface: yeah , that 's great for us . marketing: yeah , so we 're in . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . and so personal what i was just saying like move away from the current remote controls uh like the look and the feel of the current ones and change the look and feel , while still keeping to the company 's image , basically . so yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: . i had to say user interface: right . marketing: so we 're moving in the right direction like project manager: alright , yeah , no , this i this is good , user interface: yeah . project manager: so through all that we 've we go we 're right , we 're gon na go go back to um going with the kinetic thing , industrial designer: yep . user interface: yeah , that 's great . project manager: that 's great , using the spongy rubber that we were talking about that anti-r_s_i_ you can as you squeeze it you are not only therapeuticising yourself , you are charging the batteries , marketing: mm . project manager: and um i 'm not sure about the buttons being in the shape of fruit though . industrial designer: no vegetables . marketing: user interface: yeah , i do n't know how we incorporate project manager: . marketing: user interface: we do n't have to follow every trend , i guess . marketing: maybe make it like fruity colours or something . user interface: uh-huh . marketing: some sort . or user interface: the power button could be like a big apple or something . marketing: mm . industrial designer: well yeah , but apple would sue you for that . marketing: project manager: yeah , this is true . user interface: they don they do n't own all images of apples . project manager: industrial designer: sued the beatles so user interface: okay , we 'll make it a uh pomegranate , a big pomegranate . industrial designer: project manager: well , okay , it seems like the only thing that we have n't really finally um agreed on is its image . like , yeah , we 're we 're saying no we do n't want it to be fruit and vegetables , but we dunno what it should be , user interface: . project manager: or like are we going yeah it looks slick , but what do what do we mean by slick sort of thing ? marketing: well i think , if it 's rubber it needs to be project manager: i mean you said earlier on i it should be funky . marketing: different . i think , it 's it should be i mean , what do you associate with rubber ? you know like project manager: l keep it clean , keep it clean . marketing: really different colours basically . industrial designer: marketing: okay , sor i sorry , i used the wrong word , what do you associate with the mate the material that material ? um industrial designer: marketing: um like i 'm just thinking bright colours . user interface: yeah . marketing: bright natural colours , nothing too project manager: bright , but not too bright . marketing: bright , but too not yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: like no lime green or bright yellow or bright pink . wan na make it different colours so anybody can choo like like project manager: like the volume buttons should be the all the same colour and the d and the the channel buttons should be one colour and stuff like that , do you mean ? user interface: mm . marketing: yeah . and on the back of it have the logo . project manager: okay , what ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: sure . industrial designer: why not ? project manager: okay . tha user interface: the one thing i 'm wondering about , i hope that we 're not going like too much down a gimmicky road of of having project manager: yeah , i mean we that 's we we user interface: i mean if somebody go goes into the store they 're gon na see like three or four normal remotes , and then a big spongy pink t tomato uh remote . marketing: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: this is the remote control tomato . user interface: i mean what are ninety per cent of people gon na take ? marketing: well i can say in this country , you 'll get , you know , lots of people wanting something really funky and cool . like and kids will be walking in with their parents saying , mummy i wan na buy that one . project manager: marketing: and uh parents will see the will see the pro as well , because it 's um like kids wo n't break it , it 's not breakable if you throw it around . project manager: yeah . marketing: especially with younger kids , you know they can pick it up and and yeah . the only thing is is that really small kids might chew on it , but project manager: well , it 's it 's got ta be chew proof . user interface: marketing: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: i 'm gon na write that down . marketing: so user interface: marketing: so it 's rea it 's quite project manager: marketing: it 's quite like um user friendly industrial designer: marketing: and also for different families , like like family use as well , so for little kids and for old ki like teenagers will like it , i think . especially maybe younger girls if it 's in pink they 'll be like pink remote control for their room something . project manager: so , what are you saying , maybe we should market it in different colours for different marketing: yeah . project manager: so we could do like the pink range , the blue range , the green range , the industrial designer: that 's yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: so like you walk in , you 're like , oh i like that remote control , because it 's so bright , and then , and then the shop assistant comes up and says , oh what colour would you like ? and then they go like , oh i can choose the colour wow . so it puts , i think , even the customer into more control over what they 're buying instead of , you 've got all colour it 's either that or nothing . so they also get to pick . well , personally i like walking into a shop and choosing a colour . user interface: yeah i mean , that that seems to work well with for products like ipod , marketing: it 's um user interface: where , you know , you have a variety of colours , that people feel like they 're customising it when they buy it , even , you know , just just by the fact of choosing . project manager: mm . marketing: yeah . mm . industrial designer: although i 'd be curious to see how many uh marketing: d you 've got the industrial designer: you know , there are some colours that i wouldn i would never choose , and i would be curious how many people choose that colour . project manager: well that 's that can be down to bit of market researching you know , user interface: right . project manager: if that 's easy enough to find out what colours are more popular . industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and produce less of the silly colours , maybe . project manager: mm . industrial designer: project manager: okay . alright . well um , we 'll alright let 's what we 're gon na aim to get together by the next meeting then um is from you catherine wi your y y you know you 're gon na be working on the the look and feel design . industrial designer: yep . project manager: um gabriel , you 're gon na be working on , you know come up with the the user interface design . then basically , you two are gon na be working together on this . you wo n't be going off to your separate offices . industrial designer: alright . user interface: okay . project manager: um and i think you are gon na get a chance to play with some clay . user interface: oh right . project manager: i think , yeah , it 's gon na you know , industrial designer: mm . project manager: come up ki you know , be ab for the next meeting be able to come in and show us some some i some physical ideas . 'cause at the moment , uh you know , it 's it 's hard . industrial designer: cool . project manager: we were kinda going , yeah , it 's got ta feel nice , it 's got ta look cool and that it 's industrial designer: it is . user interface: yeah . project manager: you know now we can actually start , you know , s some sort of physical something or other . user interface: that sounds good . project manager: um and you 're gon na be working on the product evaluation . marketing: evaluation . project manager: um . and i will be uh industrial designer: marketing: project manager: talking to the bosses , basically , and uh marketing: project manager: f fielding off some more spam and uh industrial designer: great . project manager: that 's it really . keeping things t well , uh you know , ho hopefully uh keeping things together . um . yeah , that 's this is this is uh good . so we know for definite we know we 've we 've now got some definite things going on . we definitely know how it 's powered , user interface: mm . project manager: we definitely know that um it 's gon na be a simple buttons , we 're not gon na be going for the new technological chip on print expensive things , so we 've we 're keeping the costs down . it 's this rubber casing that we can sell as um fun and funky . do n't know of any other remote controls that are made out of this stuff . marketing: mm . project manager: people , you know , people are saying , oh , standard stuff gives you repetitive strain injury , well this remote control is designed to do the complete opposite , marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's supposed to fix it rather than cause it . um . you know , we 're gon na we we 're gon na as a sort of extra something on it , you know what what extra things are there extra things this product have ? we 'll look into this lock key user interface: right . project manager: facility , although whether or not it happens , or is possible , i do n't know , but something to look into . okay . i think that 's um well done everybody . anyone have any uh any questions , user interface: alright . project manager: everyone know what they 're doing ? 'cause if you do n't , you 'll i 'm sure you 'll soon get an e-mail about it . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . marketing: user interface: mm , i think we all know what we need to do now . marketing: s this gives you all the details ? project manager: okay . right well . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's um we 're we 've still couple of minutes until our meeting 's due to finish . but um i got a note saying that you two who are gon na be working together marketing: project manager: so bef before you all disappear off just user interface: okay , i 'll stay in here . marketing: um . user interface: project manager: hold hold fire . um . user interface: does the pay-raise immediately come into effect on our next pay-check , or is that project manager: um i think , it 's uh , yeah , i think , it 's gon na be par part more of a profit sharing on the product . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: so we 're buying fut i mean , we 're getting futures in the company . project manager: yeah , i think i i think that 's i think that 's the way it 's gon na happen at the moment . user interface: so we really have a incentive to make this remote work . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: i 'd like to share in the coffee machine profits , because that 's really doing well . project manager: i want a share in the space rocket . did you see that this k that this company we 've made a spaceship . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . . marketing: yeah . user interface: this company has its its fingers in a lot of different pots . marketing: project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: yeah , we 're definitely not in the money making department . marketing: project manager: . user interface: well i i did notice looking at i mean , they told you that they wanted whatev our product to represent the the r_r_ brand and and to be immediately noticeable . project manager: yeah . user interface: i mean , if you look like at the coffee maker at the at the corporate web page , it 's not obvious . marketing: mm . user interface: r_r_ . well it is to us , because we we worked worked here for years and we use that coffee machine , but it 's does n't have the colour scheme of of the of the company anywhere on it obviously it 's just sil silver and black . project manager: mm . industrial designer: that 's true . project manager: and the spaceship does n't have the r_ have a massive r_ and r_ down the side of it user interface: no . industrial designer: does n't project manager: but i still want one . user interface: mm . project manager: okay . um i 've just had a sign flashing up saying , finish the meeting . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh . user interface: okay . project manager: yeah . user interface: right , well , i guess that 's us . project manager: yeah . it 's not telling it 's not saying do anything in particular just yet . so maybe you should go back to your own offices . user interface: okay . right . industrial designer: are we taking these off ? project manager: yeah . yeah , it says you two { disfmarker }

they discussed the energy source , which can be a basic battery , a hand dynamo , a kinetic provision of energy like that on watches , or a combination of battery and solar power . each kind of energy source has its own advantages and disadvantages . the basic battery costs less , and the kinetic provision of energy could be cooler and fancier . regarding the design of the case , industrial designer claimed that it could be a general fact one , a curved one or a double curved one which is more ergonomic . concerning the material of the case , industrial designer claimed that it could be plastic , latex , rubber , wood or titanium . at last they decided that the control is going to be a double curved rubber case , with rubber push-buttons and basic battery .

what did the group discuss about the sample sensor ? </s> marketing: oh right okay . i cover myself up . project manager: i feel like madonna with one of these on . i said i feel like madonna with one of these on . industrial designer: marketing: . project manager: marketing: i 've always wanted one of these , i really have . where do you buy 'em from ? they 're . project manager: user interface: marketing: project manager: right . hello everybody . user interface: hello . project manager: back again for another wonderful meeting . industrial designer: . marketing: project manager: is uh everyone ready ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: almost . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , we c we can hold on for a minute . marketing: oh my gosh . project manager: i figured with the spam thing , if you ca n't beat it , join in . user interface: marketing: user interface: that 's the kind of spam that everybody likes to receive . marketing: industrial designer: mm 'kay . project manager: are you ready ? okay , right , well , i take it that you are all ready now . marketing: project manager: um alright first off we 'll just uh recap from our last meeting . um which was we got together just to basically decide on well to talk about what it is that we were actually uh supposed to be doing , marketing: project manager: and who we all are and stuff like that , mm get bit more of an idea together of what 's going on . um what we are gon na talk about in this meeting is um now that we know what it is that we are doing , now we know that it 's a tv remote and stuff and you guys have just been off doing some some uh r_ and d_ for that , that 's research and development for those that have n't heard that before , user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: see i 'm learning all sorts of new technologi terms in technology today . um yeah , we 're gon na hear your uh th three little presentations , marketing: project manager: whether they be on computer or on the whiteboard or whatever you want . user interface: hmm . do you have any preference uh of order ? project manager: um i 'd like to um hear marketing: project manager: o i 'd like to hear who 's g who 's on the um from from uh catherine actually first . i want what i 'd like to hear about is uh if we 've finally decided on um what sort of energy we 're gon na be using and industrial designer: marketing: batteries . user interface: i think she is still finishing her . industrial designer: no no no no , it 's fine i 'm just preparing . project manager: it 's just that yeah , let 's let 's hear from you first . industrial designer: okay . user interface: hmm . industrial designer: where is that thing ? user interface: okay , it 's uh marketing: it 's here . industrial designer: oh sorry , could n't see . marketing: industrial designer: would that work ? project manager: get yourself in position . industrial designer: okay , so that 's me again . marketing: ah . industrial designer: um so um for the energy sources we can have a basic battery , a hand dynamo which is which was used uh in the fifties for torches , if you remember that kind of which would n't be v would n't be v v project manager: i do n't think any of us remember the fifties . user interface: is it like a crank thing or something . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . it would n't be very fancy . marketing: industrial designer: you can have a kinetic provision of energy , which is used on some watches these days . so if you have just a bit of gentle movement that it will give it the energy to work . marketing: mm . industrial designer: or you can use solar cells , but i 'm not sure about that indoors , really , but user interface: well , there 's sometimes combinations , i mean , like calculators do combinations of battery with but also using some solar power . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: do sol solar panel things , do they have to work from the sun or can they work from a light bulb ? marketing: mm . project manager: does anybody know ? industrial designer: i dunno actually . user interface: uh i think , it has to be on the on the solar energy , but i do n't know . industrial designer: i dunno . um . think the the uh what would cost the less would be the basic battery , really . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and uh if we want something fancier , i think the kinetic provision of energy could be nice , marketing: mm . industrial designer: but i do n't know if it 's worth the cost . so we 've got to discuss that . project manager: mm . okay , jolly good . industrial designer: for the case of the remotes itself , um they can be a general case , which is just a flat one . you can have uh a curved one or a double curved one , if you know what i mean , so project manager: what 's a double curved one ? industrial designer: you know , kind of more ergonomic , that kind of suits the palm of your hand , that kind of thing . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so um then the case material itself , so it can be uh uh either plastic or latex , uh rubber , wood , or titanium . and th for each of them you have uh cases where for example titanium , you ca n't use it for if you if we 're choosing a double curved case , we ca n't choose titanium . and if we are choosing um solar cells then we ca n't choose latex for the case material , so we just have to take that into account . but if we 're choosing just the flat case then we can go for anything . and i think we discussed earlier on the r_ s_ i_ problem thing , so we could uh project manager: so that might be an idea of using the rubber , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: but then it should , you know user interface: let 's have a squeezable remote . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . and also it does n't break as easily maybe , project manager: when a tv programme 's got one industrial designer: i dunno user interface: project manager: watching the match and your team 's just lost , you can fuzz it across the room and it 'll bounce off the wall back at you . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , i like that idea . marketing: mm . industrial designer: so rubber would be okay . marketing: i think rubber 's project manager: rubber , we 're all we 're all going we 're all liking that idea ? you think you can market that ? marketing: but after my after my fashion thing , i think you 'll realise that rubber is more project manager: ooh , we like rubber , ooh . industrial designer: uh s so if d marketing: people . industrial designer: okay . and then there are the push-buttons , so you can have basic push-buttons or a scroll-wheels , like you have on a mouse , um or you could have um lcd , which gives you a display . um scroll buttons , as well . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: so if you use a rubber double curved case , you must use rubber push-buttons . so if we 're going for rubber then we have to decide for the case . um and if we choose double curved then we have to go for rubber push-buttons . project manager: well , we 're gon na go with i think we 've decided that it 's gon na be a rubber case so industrial designer: so it 's a constraint . yeah , but is it a double curved one or not ? if it 's not a double curved , then we 've got the choice for the push-buttons , if it 's a double curve , we 've got ta go for rubber push-buttons . if that makes sense . project manager: push buttons instead of the wheel ? industrial designer: yeah . . user interface: if it 's rubber , is n't it malleable anyway , it does n't matter if it 's double i mean is n't a rubber case , mean it 's completely flexed , i mean , it it flexes to whatever they want it to ? mean so what 's the difference between a normal rubber case and a rubble doub double rubber double curved case ? project manager: rubble double double . industrial designer: no , but na le you see , you 've got , okay , the energy that 's one thing , project manager: i 'll have a big mac , please . industrial designer: then you have the case is uh , whether it 's flat or curved . and that 's we do n't care if it 's rub rubber or not , but then we 've decided that we going for rubber for the case material . so if we 've chosen rub rubber and if now we have the choice for the case whether it 's flat , single curved or double curved . and i 'm just saying if it if we choose it to be double curved then we need to go i dunno why , but we need to go for uh rubber push-buttons . so , either user interface: okay . industrial designer: i dunno we just need to decide on the on the case . project manager: let 's have rubber push buttons , hey . user interface: okay . go rubber . go rubber the whole way . industrial designer: let 's go crazy . and then , do i have a last slide ? yes , i do . um so the push-buttons themselves they can be just simple or they can be so that 's just the electronics between the but behind the push-buttons . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um and the price that go with it with it , so the simple push-buttons are gon na be the cheapest . uh if we get a scroll-wheel , that 's a higher price range . if we get an advanced chip which is um used for the lcd , the display thing , then that 's even more expensive . project manager: simple , yeah . chip on print . it 's a bit . okay , uh what i 'm not understanding here industrial designer: mm . project manager: is uh , okay , advanced chip on print , which i presume is like one p_c_b_ and that 's got all the electronics on one board including the um infra-red sender ? industrial designer: . yeah . marketing: industrial designer: the infra-red . yeah . project manager: right . um what a what alternatives do we have to that ? y um what alternatives do we have to the chip on print ? industrial designer: well , if if it 's not chip on print then , i guess , you get different chip components , and you build them separately and does n't include the infra-red . it 's less expensive mm project manager: so it sounds industrial designer: technically speaking , it 's not as advanced , but it does the job , too . project manager: so , why would we not go for that ? if it 's something that 's inside the the unit . i it does n't affects whether the customer 's gon na buy it or not . industrial designer: fo it does n't , yeah , yeah , yeah . totally . yeah . project manager: um we wan na go for an i i all industrial designer: so let 's not go for the project manager: so long as it works , industrial designer: yeah , yeah . i agree . project manager: you know . so let 's not let 's uh not bother with the chip on print . industrial designer: so it 's either um the scroll-wheel or the push-buttons . project manager: yeah . s yeah , push buttons . marketing: what about the just developed uh sample sensor ? user interface: i think push-buttons is project manager: what about what ? marketing: g there , the sample sensor , sample speaker thing . industrial designer: well project manager: well , what do we need a speaker for in a remote control unit ? marketing: mm , i dunno . be cool . industrial designer: it 'd be it 'd be cool , but they are saying they 've just developed it , user interface: yeah . marketing: channel two . industrial designer: i 'm just guessing . but it 's gon na be the most expensive option , probably and project manager: s user interface: th the the speech recognition um option is it does n't seem really very promising for us uh , project manager: yeah . it 's not something that we wan na t go into with this product . user interface: 'cause uh the yeah the example that they 're already using it for is with the coffee machine , where , basically , you can program a sample wi um that when you say something it will give a response , and you program the response as well . just uh clips of tha that you record yourself . so you can program your coffee-maker that when you say , good morning , to it it says , hello rick , or whatever . project manager: yeah . user interface: but , i mean , it 's not industrial designer: hm . user interface: it would be one thing if it was speech recognition where you say something and it turns the tv on like , turn the tv on , and i turns comes on , but it 's not that . it just gives you a it just gives you a verbal response . marketing: oh , it just gives an answer . user interface: so , yeah , i mean , like what 's the point of saying , hello remote , i mean , hello , how how are you ? marketing: oh , then then project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: just if you are really lonely , maybe . marketing: i thought i thought it was when they said user interface: yeah , if you 're really lonely , it is it 's marketing: i thought when they said , voice recognition , they meant um like , industrial designer: channel five . and then it switches on . marketing: channel five , and it will change . user interface: no , tha that w that w that would be more promising . marketing: like you talk to it . can i have channel five ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: it it 's just a remote that talks to you . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: uh . i mean to certain cues . marketing: oh , then forget about it . oh right okay . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay , so i 'll go back , maybe , to the previous slide and we can decide for each problem , what we should choose . so for the energy source , do we go for the battery or the user interface: 'kay . yeah , i 'm fine with the basic battery . project manager: basic battery . marketing: mm . project manager: it 's cheap , it 's cheerful , it 's worked , does work . user interface: hmm . industrial designer: cheaper option . are you happy with that ? marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: okay . so we 'll go for the battery . then the case , do you want it flat or curved or sing or double curved ? project manager: we were go we were going with the late with the the r_s_i_ rubber , were n't we ? user interface: yeah , so we want it rub rubber double curved . project manager: the the marketing: so it will look like something like this . industrial designer: double ? project manager: the double whopper , please . industrial designer: okay , so then if we use double curved case , then we have to u choose rubber push-buttons , project manager: yep , but we 're going for the simple buttons . user interface: so rubber rubber keys , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and that 's fine ? project manager: and it 's cheapest all round , it sounds kinda funky , and we can also market it industrial designer: p user interface: yeah . project manager: as i 'cause we were s saying earl you were saying earlier in your research that um the the people have the r_ people were getting the complaining about r_s_i_ , and this is anti-r_s_i_ . marketing: . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so that 's another marketing point that we can use . marketing: well the rubber push-buttons . do n't you have to move your project manager: but anything is gon na have buttons . marketing: mm . project manager: even if it 's a jog wheel , it 's still repetitive . you industrial designer: i thought they would give an option of flat buttons or a project manager: you see , you can still get it does you still get repetitive strain injury , whether you are pressing a button or pressing a flat bit of screen . industrial designer: that they do n't . project manager: it 's the v it 's the fact that you are pressing the same doing the same movement . industrial designer: mm . user interface: . project manager: it 's not actually what you are doing . industrial designer: project manager: but the fact that this this rubber i is actually used in these anti-r_s_i_ ps specific marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , the rubber 's good . user interface: we 're giving them a way to burn off steam , basically , yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , so they can sit there and go like user interface: not that watching tv should be that stressful . project manager: and you know , yeah , you can fuzz it across the room and throw it at throw it at your children yeah . marketing: user interface: oh yeah , i guess tv can be stressful , yeah , if you 're watching sports . marketing: industrial designer: alright , that 's me done . project manager: okay , gabriel . let 's um let 's let 's hear from you about the um it 's the interface . user interface: alright . alright . yeah , some of what i have to say ties into what catherine was just talking about . project manager: great . industrial designer: sorry . user interface: okay , so i 'm continuing with the user interface uh topic . and so basically i consulted with our manufacturing division . it sounded like catherine was also speaking with them . uh i also took uh reissa 's marketing findings from the last meeting into consideration um , 'cause i think that 's that 's crucial as far as uh what keys we 're going to inc inclu what buttons we are going to include and and how they 're laid out . project manager: mm . user interface: uh and so the manufacturing division uh sent some some samples of of uh interface components that we might be interested in using that have been used in other products , uh like the coffee machine . so i already mentioned the speech recognition interface . marketing: user interface: i guess , we we basically vetoed that idea . it 's it 's pointless . project manager: mm . user interface: uh it 's just a sample sensor sample output . it would just be probably the most expensive part of our remote without any actual interesting functionality as far as operating the tv . uh so yeah , they they also give the uh they they suggested the idea of using a spinning wheel like you use on the side of an m_p_ three player like ipod . project manager: mm . marketing: mm . user interface: um so we 've already addressed that and i think that would actually be worse for something like r_s_i_ i mean you got that thumb movement that you 're constantly doing . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: um the other suggestion , marketing: that does get annoying . user interface: and i i have a feeling that we 're interested in in something more general , but they suggested uh , you know , going i a little bit into a a niche , like either gearing our remote towards kids , where you could have lot of colours um , the keys might be you know , funny or or , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: or uh something for the elderly , where the remote 's very large and the buttons are very large and there 's only a few buttons . but you know we can we can discuss this , but it sounded like from our last meeting we really wanted something that was general , but done well . project manager: yeah . user interface: uh um so , the key layout and design are really crucial . you do n't want uh you want people to be able to quickly access the buttons that they use a lot without uh always pressing the wrong one um . and i did n't mention that we need a power button in our last i can give you an example here of uh , good layout and bad layout industrial designer: user interface: uh from our manufacturing department . so this would be an example of bad layout , where you have volume up and volume down , but they have a v_ on both of them , so uh project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: it 's sort of confusing for the user . uh this is the example of the giant remote that 's impossible to lose . project manager: do we have an uh example of a good one ? brilliant . industrial designer: marketing: uh-huh . well user interface: and for something for kids . yeah . um . project manager: yeah . user interface: and so , yeah , i th i think my personal preferences of we 've all kind of talked about and seemed to be on the same page um . uh so i was against the speech recognition and against going uh towards anything in in a niche sense . i think it should be more general . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: i did n't i did n't think the spinning-wheel or the uh l_c_ display were were crucial for us . and , yeah , that 's it for me . project manager: okay . well let 's um so w what are our definite decisions on this then as a team ? the um the the um the interface type we 're going for user interface: so we 're we 're not gon na have any sort of display i think uh . project manager: just the simple s simple straight set of buttons . user interface: so , yeah , it 's just gon na be just gon na be push-buttons . um . i think we shall have a limited number of buttons , project manager: yeah . user interface: ideally , i mean a a power , channel up , channel down , volume up , volume down , and a numerical keypad . project manager: yeah . user interface: uh . and some sort of it will either have a a lock button like we mentioned or or a cover or something like that . project manager: yeah . user interface: i guess it 's to the point where we need to decide about that . project manager: okay , and we 're not yeah . user interface: well now that we 've decided on our project manager: are we gon na hav hav an are we d marketing: project manager: have we decided on whether w we 're gon na s supplement it with anything , you know , colours or particular gimmicky bits to it , we 're not we 're just gon na go for something user interface: um it seems like we would n't wan na make it too busy and too sort of gaudy , project manager: we 're marketing: maybe we can user interface: but um yeah , i would say mayb maybe a couple of colours like uh like a black with with yellow and somewhere , like maybe the r_r_ can be yellow , or something like that . project manager: yeah . yeah . okay . okey-dokey . yeah , i do n't have any other questions on this . let 's move over to user interface: i i guess the fact uh also that we are having a rubber case uh would prevent us from having the cover function that we thought of before . project manager: yeah , sure . user interface: i mean , 'cause uh s so if we wan na have a lock of some sort it would have to be a button . project manager: . user interface: but i think that should be i mean um , i can speak with the button department , but uh i think that it should be easy to have a button that just prevents prevents the other uh the other buttons from operating . project manager: yeah , the button that just does that , yeah . user interface: so that should be simple . project manager: cool . marketing: right . well , i 'm just basically letting you know what 's happening in the markets project manager: mm yeah . marketing: and what the fashions are for next year . um . so yes , so from looking at this year 's trends and fashions project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and also recent investigation that we 've done in the remote control market , we have found that for the remote control market these are like most important aspects like that we really need to project manager: marketing: which we 've already probably discussed . um the most important aspect is look and feel . so the remote control has to look and feel fancier than the ones that already that we already have . so it has to be project manager: yeah , why should people buy this when they 're already got a remote that came with the tv ? marketing: yep . user interface: mm . marketing: exactly . user interface: yeah . marketing: um second , uh it should be technologically innovative innovative . so project manager: what 's that mean ? marketing: technologically it should be like um work , basically , i guess . it should work . user interface: well it should be it should be maybe cutting edge in some sense , marketing: should user interface: i mean have something that 's little more technologically advanced than what 's on the market . marketing: that 's new . project manager: okay , now the trouble is is we 've already decided that we 're going with the stuff that works already , that 's cheap . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . actually , i mean , these first two points we 've already sort of gone away from , marketing: yeah . user interface: 'cause our rubber one is not fancy project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: i mean it 's different , but i would n't say like a rubber remote is fancy . if that 's what people want then we maybe we 're going in the wrong direction . and it 's it 's not technologically innovative either . project manager: maybe we could um marketing: so , no loose user interface: mm . marketing: that 's why i was thinking , bluetooth , 'cause if you like put up bluetooth , and it 's like a bluetooth remote control , everybody 's gon na like , oh , 'cause bluetooth is the in thing nowadays , like it really is , like people and um when it comes to marketing like that 's what people go for , they do n't really care whether , you know , at the end of the day whether it works properly or not . project manager: of course , they do . marketing: well , they do , but it 's like it 's not project manager: one hundred per cent , that 's your first thing , you go , oh i 'm not gon na buy that , 'cause i dunno if it works or not . marketing: yeah , but it looks good . if it looks good and it 's it can just be there for decoration . project manager: okay , well , what do you two think about this ? user interface: so is is the advantage of bluetooth that you can just like synchronise it with other marketing: but like project manager: yeah , what i do n't understand what m user interface: electronics ? marketing: you could always insert , yeah . user interface: yeah , that 's basically what it allows you to do , project manager: yeah , user interface: right ? project manager: and it this is just gon na all this is being used for is your television . marketing: yeah , but , i mean , people like project manager: it would that would mean you 'd need a television that has bluetooth in it , which no no television does , marketing: well , if you 're looking at if you looking at something that 's going to be bought by people , you have to make it new , you have to make it state of the art . industrial designer: well project manager: does it ? that would mean we 'd have to make a television as well . industrial designer: bluetooth would , for example , enable you , i think , to um um connect for example you if you get a w call on your mobile phone , but your mobile phone is downstairs or something , you would get on your television you 're being called by this person right now . things like that . project manager: no , that would be your telephone in with your television . industrial designer: no i user interface: yeah , the that would n't be the remote so much , project manager: yeah , user interface: i mean project manager: and i industrial designer: no , but if you get bluetooth on the remote , you 'd be able to project manager: nah , the televi the television would have to be a bluetooth compatible , basically . industrial designer: i with the television , yeah . i was just trying to find an advantage . wha what w what advantage would you get for the user interface: mm . marketing: well , it does n't project manager: an and there is no there is no such thing marketing: like it does n't have to be , you know , bluetooth , that was just an idea , but like it needs do something that , you know , is new . whether it 's a battery it could be something really really minor , you know , like but i think we are really keeping to what is already out there , and people 've already seen it , people 've already got it . project manager: okay . marketing: if we want something new , we need to move away from what we already have and um just go creative . industrial designer: maybe the kinetic mo provision of energy then . it 's been done for watches , but i have n't seen that for remotes , yet . project manager: okay . yeah , this that 's that 's very good . marketing: and then you can market it . never have to change a battery again . industrial designer: change the batteries ever again . project manager: and and this is all tying in very nicely . marketing: project manager: the fact that it 's made out of this rubber , we can throw it about . th we should encourage people to throw their remote controls about , because it charges itself up by doing it . industrial designer: yeah , well , and in little characters you say , yeah , but not too much . user interface: yes , so can project manager: but yeah , by the squeezing it the marketing: i think , safety s user interface: yeah , we can make the squeezing of the rubber be the be the generating like the energy generator . project manager: yeah , that 's a great idea . well done . marketing: yeah . third most important aspect uh is it 's easy to use . user interface: we 're all about that . marketing: and i think we 've all um worked that out . um okay , in the fashion , how it 's supposed to look . next year 's fashion i very much in fruit and vegetables are thm are like the theme for cloths , shoes and furniture . so next year people will be buying , i found this really funny , you know , strawberry shaped chairs , industrial designer: user interface: okay , so we could have keys that are like a b like a broccoli key and a uh and an avocado key on them . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: i wan na watch the pineapple channel . marketing: rubber things . um and as it 's rubber the feel which is in this year is spongy , so it 's it 's not quite spongy , but spongy , i would say is user interface: . project manager: well spongy , that 's where . yeah , we 're we 're ahead of the game there . user interface: yeah , that 's great for us . marketing: yeah , so we 're in . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . and so personal what i was just saying like move away from the current remote controls uh like the look and the feel of the current ones and change the look and feel , while still keeping to the company 's image , basically . so yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: . i had to say user interface: right . marketing: so we 're moving in the right direction like project manager: alright , yeah , no , this i this is good , user interface: yeah . project manager: so through all that we 've we go we 're right , we 're gon na go go back to um going with the kinetic thing , industrial designer: yep . user interface: yeah , that 's great . project manager: that 's great , using the spongy rubber that we were talking about that anti-r_s_i_ you can as you squeeze it you are not only therapeuticising yourself , you are charging the batteries , marketing: mm . project manager: and um i 'm not sure about the buttons being in the shape of fruit though . industrial designer: no vegetables . marketing: user interface: yeah , i do n't know how we incorporate project manager: . marketing: user interface: we do n't have to follow every trend , i guess . marketing: maybe make it like fruity colours or something . user interface: uh-huh . marketing: some sort . or user interface: the power button could be like a big apple or something . marketing: mm . industrial designer: well yeah , but apple would sue you for that . marketing: project manager: yeah , this is true . user interface: they don they do n't own all images of apples . project manager: industrial designer: sued the beatles so user interface: okay , we 'll make it a uh pomegranate , a big pomegranate . industrial designer: project manager: well , okay , it seems like the only thing that we have n't really finally um agreed on is its image . like , yeah , we 're we 're saying no we do n't want it to be fruit and vegetables , but we dunno what it should be , user interface: . project manager: or like are we going yeah it looks slick , but what do what do we mean by slick sort of thing ? marketing: well i think , if it 's rubber it needs to be project manager: i mean you said earlier on i it should be funky . marketing: different . i think , it 's it should be i mean , what do you associate with rubber ? you know like project manager: l keep it clean , keep it clean . marketing: really different colours basically . industrial designer: marketing: okay , sor i sorry , i used the wrong word , what do you associate with the mate the material that material ? um industrial designer: marketing: um like i 'm just thinking bright colours . user interface: yeah . marketing: bright natural colours , nothing too project manager: bright , but not too bright . marketing: bright , but too not yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: like no lime green or bright yellow or bright pink . wan na make it different colours so anybody can choo like like project manager: like the volume buttons should be the all the same colour and the d and the the channel buttons should be one colour and stuff like that , do you mean ? user interface: mm . marketing: yeah . and on the back of it have the logo . project manager: okay , what ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: sure . industrial designer: why not ? project manager: okay . tha user interface: the one thing i 'm wondering about , i hope that we 're not going like too much down a gimmicky road of of having project manager: yeah , i mean we that 's we we user interface: i mean if somebody go goes into the store they 're gon na see like three or four normal remotes , and then a big spongy pink t tomato uh remote . marketing: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: this is the remote control tomato . user interface: i mean what are ninety per cent of people gon na take ? marketing: well i can say in this country , you 'll get , you know , lots of people wanting something really funky and cool . like and kids will be walking in with their parents saying , mummy i wan na buy that one . project manager: marketing: and uh parents will see the will see the pro as well , because it 's um like kids wo n't break it , it 's not breakable if you throw it around . project manager: yeah . marketing: especially with younger kids , you know they can pick it up and and yeah . the only thing is is that really small kids might chew on it , but project manager: well , it 's it 's got ta be chew proof . user interface: marketing: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: i 'm gon na write that down . marketing: so user interface: marketing: so it 's rea it 's quite project manager: marketing: it 's quite like um user friendly industrial designer: marketing: and also for different families , like like family use as well , so for little kids and for old ki like teenagers will like it , i think . especially maybe younger girls if it 's in pink they 'll be like pink remote control for their room something . project manager: so , what are you saying , maybe we should market it in different colours for different marketing: yeah . project manager: so we could do like the pink range , the blue range , the green range , the industrial designer: that 's yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: so like you walk in , you 're like , oh i like that remote control , because it 's so bright , and then , and then the shop assistant comes up and says , oh what colour would you like ? and then they go like , oh i can choose the colour wow . so it puts , i think , even the customer into more control over what they 're buying instead of , you 've got all colour it 's either that or nothing . so they also get to pick . well , personally i like walking into a shop and choosing a colour . user interface: yeah i mean , that that seems to work well with for products like ipod , marketing: it 's um user interface: where , you know , you have a variety of colours , that people feel like they 're customising it when they buy it , even , you know , just just by the fact of choosing . project manager: mm . marketing: yeah . mm . industrial designer: although i 'd be curious to see how many uh marketing: d you 've got the industrial designer: you know , there are some colours that i wouldn i would never choose , and i would be curious how many people choose that colour . project manager: well that 's that can be down to bit of market researching you know , user interface: right . project manager: if that 's easy enough to find out what colours are more popular . industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and produce less of the silly colours , maybe . project manager: mm . industrial designer: project manager: okay . alright . well um , we 'll alright let 's what we 're gon na aim to get together by the next meeting then um is from you catherine wi your y y you know you 're gon na be working on the the look and feel design . industrial designer: yep . project manager: um gabriel , you 're gon na be working on , you know come up with the the user interface design . then basically , you two are gon na be working together on this . you wo n't be going off to your separate offices . industrial designer: alright . user interface: okay . project manager: um and i think you are gon na get a chance to play with some clay . user interface: oh right . project manager: i think , yeah , it 's gon na you know , industrial designer: mm . project manager: come up ki you know , be ab for the next meeting be able to come in and show us some some i some physical ideas . 'cause at the moment , uh you know , it 's it 's hard . industrial designer: cool . project manager: we were kinda going , yeah , it 's got ta feel nice , it 's got ta look cool and that it 's industrial designer: it is . user interface: yeah . project manager: you know now we can actually start , you know , s some sort of physical something or other . user interface: that sounds good . project manager: um and you 're gon na be working on the product evaluation . marketing: evaluation . project manager: um . and i will be uh industrial designer: marketing: project manager: talking to the bosses , basically , and uh marketing: project manager: f fielding off some more spam and uh industrial designer: great . project manager: that 's it really . keeping things t well , uh you know , ho hopefully uh keeping things together . um . yeah , that 's this is this is uh good . so we know for definite we know we 've we 've now got some definite things going on . we definitely know how it 's powered , user interface: mm . project manager: we definitely know that um it 's gon na be a simple buttons , we 're not gon na be going for the new technological chip on print expensive things , so we 've we 're keeping the costs down . it 's this rubber casing that we can sell as um fun and funky . do n't know of any other remote controls that are made out of this stuff . marketing: mm . project manager: people , you know , people are saying , oh , standard stuff gives you repetitive strain injury , well this remote control is designed to do the complete opposite , marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's supposed to fix it rather than cause it . um . you know , we 're gon na we we 're gon na as a sort of extra something on it , you know what what extra things are there extra things this product have ? we 'll look into this lock key user interface: right . project manager: facility , although whether or not it happens , or is possible , i do n't know , but something to look into . okay . i think that 's um well done everybody . anyone have any uh any questions , user interface: alright . project manager: everyone know what they 're doing ? 'cause if you do n't , you 'll i 'm sure you 'll soon get an e-mail about it . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . marketing: user interface: mm , i think we all know what we need to do now . marketing: s this gives you all the details ? project manager: okay . right well . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's um we 're we 've still couple of minutes until our meeting 's due to finish . but um i got a note saying that you two who are gon na be working together marketing: project manager: so bef before you all disappear off just user interface: okay , i 'll stay in here . marketing: um . user interface: project manager: hold hold fire . um . user interface: does the pay-raise immediately come into effect on our next pay-check , or is that project manager: um i think , it 's uh , yeah , i think , it 's gon na be par part more of a profit sharing on the product . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: so we 're buying fut i mean , we 're getting futures in the company . project manager: yeah , i think i i think that 's i think that 's the way it 's gon na happen at the moment . user interface: so we really have a incentive to make this remote work . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: i 'd like to share in the coffee machine profits , because that 's really doing well . project manager: i want a share in the space rocket . did you see that this k that this company we 've made a spaceship . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . . marketing: yeah . user interface: this company has its its fingers in a lot of different pots . marketing: project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: yeah , we 're definitely not in the money making department . marketing: project manager: . user interface: well i i did notice looking at i mean , they told you that they wanted whatev our product to represent the the r_r_ brand and and to be immediately noticeable . project manager: yeah . user interface: i mean , if you look like at the coffee maker at the at the corporate web page , it 's not obvious . marketing: mm . user interface: r_r_ . well it is to us , because we we worked worked here for years and we use that coffee machine , but it 's does n't have the colour scheme of of the of the company anywhere on it obviously it 's just sil silver and black . project manager: mm . industrial designer: that 's true . project manager: and the spaceship does n't have the r_ have a massive r_ and r_ down the side of it user interface: no . industrial designer: does n't project manager: but i still want one . user interface: mm . project manager: okay . um i 've just had a sign flashing up saying , finish the meeting . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh . user interface: okay . project manager: yeah . user interface: right , well , i guess that 's us . project manager: yeah . it 's not telling it 's not saying do anything in particular just yet . so maybe you should go back to your own offices . user interface: okay . right . industrial designer: are we taking these off ? project manager: yeah . yeah , it says you two { disfmarker }

marketing motioned for the idea of the sample sensor , which is something like a sample speaker , which has the function of voice recognition , and can help switch channels on hearing the direction of users . but this idea was abandoned because of unnecessity and expensiveness .

what did the group discuss about user interface 's presentation on buttons , the layout design , and the color of the remote control ? </s> marketing: oh right okay . i cover myself up . project manager: i feel like madonna with one of these on . i said i feel like madonna with one of these on . industrial designer: marketing: . project manager: marketing: i 've always wanted one of these , i really have . where do you buy 'em from ? they 're . project manager: user interface: marketing: project manager: right . hello everybody . user interface: hello . project manager: back again for another wonderful meeting . industrial designer: . marketing: project manager: is uh everyone ready ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: almost . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , we c we can hold on for a minute . marketing: oh my gosh . project manager: i figured with the spam thing , if you ca n't beat it , join in . user interface: marketing: user interface: that 's the kind of spam that everybody likes to receive . marketing: industrial designer: mm 'kay . project manager: are you ready ? okay , right , well , i take it that you are all ready now . marketing: project manager: um alright first off we 'll just uh recap from our last meeting . um which was we got together just to basically decide on well to talk about what it is that we were actually uh supposed to be doing , marketing: project manager: and who we all are and stuff like that , mm get bit more of an idea together of what 's going on . um what we are gon na talk about in this meeting is um now that we know what it is that we are doing , now we know that it 's a tv remote and stuff and you guys have just been off doing some some uh r_ and d_ for that , that 's research and development for those that have n't heard that before , user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: see i 'm learning all sorts of new technologi terms in technology today . um yeah , we 're gon na hear your uh th three little presentations , marketing: project manager: whether they be on computer or on the whiteboard or whatever you want . user interface: hmm . do you have any preference uh of order ? project manager: um i 'd like to um hear marketing: project manager: o i 'd like to hear who 's g who 's on the um from from uh catherine actually first . i want what i 'd like to hear about is uh if we 've finally decided on um what sort of energy we 're gon na be using and industrial designer: marketing: batteries . user interface: i think she is still finishing her . industrial designer: no no no no , it 's fine i 'm just preparing . project manager: it 's just that yeah , let 's let 's hear from you first . industrial designer: okay . user interface: hmm . industrial designer: where is that thing ? user interface: okay , it 's uh marketing: it 's here . industrial designer: oh sorry , could n't see . marketing: industrial designer: would that work ? project manager: get yourself in position . industrial designer: okay , so that 's me again . marketing: ah . industrial designer: um so um for the energy sources we can have a basic battery , a hand dynamo which is which was used uh in the fifties for torches , if you remember that kind of which would n't be v would n't be v v project manager: i do n't think any of us remember the fifties . user interface: is it like a crank thing or something . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . it would n't be very fancy . marketing: industrial designer: you can have a kinetic provision of energy , which is used on some watches these days . so if you have just a bit of gentle movement that it will give it the energy to work . marketing: mm . industrial designer: or you can use solar cells , but i 'm not sure about that indoors , really , but user interface: well , there 's sometimes combinations , i mean , like calculators do combinations of battery with but also using some solar power . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: do sol solar panel things , do they have to work from the sun or can they work from a light bulb ? marketing: mm . project manager: does anybody know ? industrial designer: i dunno actually . user interface: uh i think , it has to be on the on the solar energy , but i do n't know . industrial designer: i dunno . um . think the the uh what would cost the less would be the basic battery , really . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and uh if we want something fancier , i think the kinetic provision of energy could be nice , marketing: mm . industrial designer: but i do n't know if it 's worth the cost . so we 've got to discuss that . project manager: mm . okay , jolly good . industrial designer: for the case of the remotes itself , um they can be a general case , which is just a flat one . you can have uh a curved one or a double curved one , if you know what i mean , so project manager: what 's a double curved one ? industrial designer: you know , kind of more ergonomic , that kind of suits the palm of your hand , that kind of thing . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so um then the case material itself , so it can be uh uh either plastic or latex , uh rubber , wood , or titanium . and th for each of them you have uh cases where for example titanium , you ca n't use it for if you if we 're choosing a double curved case , we ca n't choose titanium . and if we are choosing um solar cells then we ca n't choose latex for the case material , so we just have to take that into account . but if we 're choosing just the flat case then we can go for anything . and i think we discussed earlier on the r_ s_ i_ problem thing , so we could uh project manager: so that might be an idea of using the rubber , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: but then it should , you know user interface: let 's have a squeezable remote . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . and also it does n't break as easily maybe , project manager: when a tv programme 's got one industrial designer: i dunno user interface: project manager: watching the match and your team 's just lost , you can fuzz it across the room and it 'll bounce off the wall back at you . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , i like that idea . marketing: mm . industrial designer: so rubber would be okay . marketing: i think rubber 's project manager: rubber , we 're all we 're all going we 're all liking that idea ? you think you can market that ? marketing: but after my after my fashion thing , i think you 'll realise that rubber is more project manager: ooh , we like rubber , ooh . industrial designer: uh s so if d marketing: people . industrial designer: okay . and then there are the push-buttons , so you can have basic push-buttons or a scroll-wheels , like you have on a mouse , um or you could have um lcd , which gives you a display . um scroll buttons , as well . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: so if you use a rubber double curved case , you must use rubber push-buttons . so if we 're going for rubber then we have to decide for the case . um and if we choose double curved then we have to go for rubber push-buttons . project manager: well , we 're gon na go with i think we 've decided that it 's gon na be a rubber case so industrial designer: so it 's a constraint . yeah , but is it a double curved one or not ? if it 's not a double curved , then we 've got the choice for the push-buttons , if it 's a double curve , we 've got ta go for rubber push-buttons . if that makes sense . project manager: push buttons instead of the wheel ? industrial designer: yeah . . user interface: if it 's rubber , is n't it malleable anyway , it does n't matter if it 's double i mean is n't a rubber case , mean it 's completely flexed , i mean , it it flexes to whatever they want it to ? mean so what 's the difference between a normal rubber case and a rubble doub double rubber double curved case ? project manager: rubble double double . industrial designer: no , but na le you see , you 've got , okay , the energy that 's one thing , project manager: i 'll have a big mac , please . industrial designer: then you have the case is uh , whether it 's flat or curved . and that 's we do n't care if it 's rub rubber or not , but then we 've decided that we going for rubber for the case material . so if we 've chosen rub rubber and if now we have the choice for the case whether it 's flat , single curved or double curved . and i 'm just saying if it if we choose it to be double curved then we need to go i dunno why , but we need to go for uh rubber push-buttons . so , either user interface: okay . industrial designer: i dunno we just need to decide on the on the case . project manager: let 's have rubber push buttons , hey . user interface: okay . go rubber . go rubber the whole way . industrial designer: let 's go crazy . and then , do i have a last slide ? yes , i do . um so the push-buttons themselves they can be just simple or they can be so that 's just the electronics between the but behind the push-buttons . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um and the price that go with it with it , so the simple push-buttons are gon na be the cheapest . uh if we get a scroll-wheel , that 's a higher price range . if we get an advanced chip which is um used for the lcd , the display thing , then that 's even more expensive . project manager: simple , yeah . chip on print . it 's a bit . okay , uh what i 'm not understanding here industrial designer: mm . project manager: is uh , okay , advanced chip on print , which i presume is like one p_c_b_ and that 's got all the electronics on one board including the um infra-red sender ? industrial designer: . yeah . marketing: industrial designer: the infra-red . yeah . project manager: right . um what a what alternatives do we have to that ? y um what alternatives do we have to the chip on print ? industrial designer: well , if if it 's not chip on print then , i guess , you get different chip components , and you build them separately and does n't include the infra-red . it 's less expensive mm project manager: so it sounds industrial designer: technically speaking , it 's not as advanced , but it does the job , too . project manager: so , why would we not go for that ? if it 's something that 's inside the the unit . i it does n't affects whether the customer 's gon na buy it or not . industrial designer: fo it does n't , yeah , yeah , yeah . totally . yeah . project manager: um we wan na go for an i i all industrial designer: so let 's not go for the project manager: so long as it works , industrial designer: yeah , yeah . i agree . project manager: you know . so let 's not let 's uh not bother with the chip on print . industrial designer: so it 's either um the scroll-wheel or the push-buttons . project manager: yeah . s yeah , push buttons . marketing: what about the just developed uh sample sensor ? user interface: i think push-buttons is project manager: what about what ? marketing: g there , the sample sensor , sample speaker thing . industrial designer: well project manager: well , what do we need a speaker for in a remote control unit ? marketing: mm , i dunno . be cool . industrial designer: it 'd be it 'd be cool , but they are saying they 've just developed it , user interface: yeah . marketing: channel two . industrial designer: i 'm just guessing . but it 's gon na be the most expensive option , probably and project manager: s user interface: th the the speech recognition um option is it does n't seem really very promising for us uh , project manager: yeah . it 's not something that we wan na t go into with this product . user interface: 'cause uh the yeah the example that they 're already using it for is with the coffee machine , where , basically , you can program a sample wi um that when you say something it will give a response , and you program the response as well . just uh clips of tha that you record yourself . so you can program your coffee-maker that when you say , good morning , to it it says , hello rick , or whatever . project manager: yeah . user interface: but , i mean , it 's not industrial designer: hm . user interface: it would be one thing if it was speech recognition where you say something and it turns the tv on like , turn the tv on , and i turns comes on , but it 's not that . it just gives you a it just gives you a verbal response . marketing: oh , it just gives an answer . user interface: so , yeah , i mean , like what 's the point of saying , hello remote , i mean , hello , how how are you ? marketing: oh , then then project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: just if you are really lonely , maybe . marketing: i thought i thought it was when they said user interface: yeah , if you 're really lonely , it is it 's marketing: i thought when they said , voice recognition , they meant um like , industrial designer: channel five . and then it switches on . marketing: channel five , and it will change . user interface: no , tha that w that w that would be more promising . marketing: like you talk to it . can i have channel five ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: it it 's just a remote that talks to you . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: uh . i mean to certain cues . marketing: oh , then forget about it . oh right okay . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay , so i 'll go back , maybe , to the previous slide and we can decide for each problem , what we should choose . so for the energy source , do we go for the battery or the user interface: 'kay . yeah , i 'm fine with the basic battery . project manager: basic battery . marketing: mm . project manager: it 's cheap , it 's cheerful , it 's worked , does work . user interface: hmm . industrial designer: cheaper option . are you happy with that ? marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: okay . so we 'll go for the battery . then the case , do you want it flat or curved or sing or double curved ? project manager: we were go we were going with the late with the the r_s_i_ rubber , were n't we ? user interface: yeah , so we want it rub rubber double curved . project manager: the the marketing: so it will look like something like this . industrial designer: double ? project manager: the double whopper , please . industrial designer: okay , so then if we use double curved case , then we have to u choose rubber push-buttons , project manager: yep , but we 're going for the simple buttons . user interface: so rubber rubber keys , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and that 's fine ? project manager: and it 's cheapest all round , it sounds kinda funky , and we can also market it industrial designer: p user interface: yeah . project manager: as i 'cause we were s saying earl you were saying earlier in your research that um the the people have the r_ people were getting the complaining about r_s_i_ , and this is anti-r_s_i_ . marketing: . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so that 's another marketing point that we can use . marketing: well the rubber push-buttons . do n't you have to move your project manager: but anything is gon na have buttons . marketing: mm . project manager: even if it 's a jog wheel , it 's still repetitive . you industrial designer: i thought they would give an option of flat buttons or a project manager: you see , you can still get it does you still get repetitive strain injury , whether you are pressing a button or pressing a flat bit of screen . industrial designer: that they do n't . project manager: it 's the v it 's the fact that you are pressing the same doing the same movement . industrial designer: mm . user interface: . project manager: it 's not actually what you are doing . industrial designer: project manager: but the fact that this this rubber i is actually used in these anti-r_s_i_ ps specific marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , the rubber 's good . user interface: we 're giving them a way to burn off steam , basically , yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , so they can sit there and go like user interface: not that watching tv should be that stressful . project manager: and you know , yeah , you can fuzz it across the room and throw it at throw it at your children yeah . marketing: user interface: oh yeah , i guess tv can be stressful , yeah , if you 're watching sports . marketing: industrial designer: alright , that 's me done . project manager: okay , gabriel . let 's um let 's let 's hear from you about the um it 's the interface . user interface: alright . alright . yeah , some of what i have to say ties into what catherine was just talking about . project manager: great . industrial designer: sorry . user interface: okay , so i 'm continuing with the user interface uh topic . and so basically i consulted with our manufacturing division . it sounded like catherine was also speaking with them . uh i also took uh reissa 's marketing findings from the last meeting into consideration um , 'cause i think that 's that 's crucial as far as uh what keys we 're going to inc inclu what buttons we are going to include and and how they 're laid out . project manager: mm . user interface: uh and so the manufacturing division uh sent some some samples of of uh interface components that we might be interested in using that have been used in other products , uh like the coffee machine . so i already mentioned the speech recognition interface . marketing: user interface: i guess , we we basically vetoed that idea . it 's it 's pointless . project manager: mm . user interface: uh it 's just a sample sensor sample output . it would just be probably the most expensive part of our remote without any actual interesting functionality as far as operating the tv . uh so yeah , they they also give the uh they they suggested the idea of using a spinning wheel like you use on the side of an m_p_ three player like ipod . project manager: mm . marketing: mm . user interface: um so we 've already addressed that and i think that would actually be worse for something like r_s_i_ i mean you got that thumb movement that you 're constantly doing . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: um the other suggestion , marketing: that does get annoying . user interface: and i i have a feeling that we 're interested in in something more general , but they suggested uh , you know , going i a little bit into a a niche , like either gearing our remote towards kids , where you could have lot of colours um , the keys might be you know , funny or or , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: or uh something for the elderly , where the remote 's very large and the buttons are very large and there 's only a few buttons . but you know we can we can discuss this , but it sounded like from our last meeting we really wanted something that was general , but done well . project manager: yeah . user interface: uh um so , the key layout and design are really crucial . you do n't want uh you want people to be able to quickly access the buttons that they use a lot without uh always pressing the wrong one um . and i did n't mention that we need a power button in our last i can give you an example here of uh , good layout and bad layout industrial designer: user interface: uh from our manufacturing department . so this would be an example of bad layout , where you have volume up and volume down , but they have a v_ on both of them , so uh project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: it 's sort of confusing for the user . uh this is the example of the giant remote that 's impossible to lose . project manager: do we have an uh example of a good one ? brilliant . industrial designer: marketing: uh-huh . well user interface: and for something for kids . yeah . um . project manager: yeah . user interface: and so , yeah , i th i think my personal preferences of we 've all kind of talked about and seemed to be on the same page um . uh so i was against the speech recognition and against going uh towards anything in in a niche sense . i think it should be more general . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: i did n't i did n't think the spinning-wheel or the uh l_c_ display were were crucial for us . and , yeah , that 's it for me . project manager: okay . well let 's um so w what are our definite decisions on this then as a team ? the um the the um the interface type we 're going for user interface: so we 're we 're not gon na have any sort of display i think uh . project manager: just the simple s simple straight set of buttons . user interface: so , yeah , it 's just gon na be just gon na be push-buttons . um . i think we shall have a limited number of buttons , project manager: yeah . user interface: ideally , i mean a a power , channel up , channel down , volume up , volume down , and a numerical keypad . project manager: yeah . user interface: uh . and some sort of it will either have a a lock button like we mentioned or or a cover or something like that . project manager: yeah . user interface: i guess it 's to the point where we need to decide about that . project manager: okay , and we 're not yeah . user interface: well now that we 've decided on our project manager: are we gon na hav hav an are we d marketing: project manager: have we decided on whether w we 're gon na s supplement it with anything , you know , colours or particular gimmicky bits to it , we 're not we 're just gon na go for something user interface: um it seems like we would n't wan na make it too busy and too sort of gaudy , project manager: we 're marketing: maybe we can user interface: but um yeah , i would say mayb maybe a couple of colours like uh like a black with with yellow and somewhere , like maybe the r_r_ can be yellow , or something like that . project manager: yeah . yeah . okay . okey-dokey . yeah , i do n't have any other questions on this . let 's move over to user interface: i i guess the fact uh also that we are having a rubber case uh would prevent us from having the cover function that we thought of before . project manager: yeah , sure . user interface: i mean , 'cause uh s so if we wan na have a lock of some sort it would have to be a button . project manager: . user interface: but i think that should be i mean um , i can speak with the button department , but uh i think that it should be easy to have a button that just prevents prevents the other uh the other buttons from operating . project manager: yeah , the button that just does that , yeah . user interface: so that should be simple . project manager: cool . marketing: right . well , i 'm just basically letting you know what 's happening in the markets project manager: mm yeah . marketing: and what the fashions are for next year . um . so yes , so from looking at this year 's trends and fashions project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and also recent investigation that we 've done in the remote control market , we have found that for the remote control market these are like most important aspects like that we really need to project manager: marketing: which we 've already probably discussed . um the most important aspect is look and feel . so the remote control has to look and feel fancier than the ones that already that we already have . so it has to be project manager: yeah , why should people buy this when they 're already got a remote that came with the tv ? marketing: yep . user interface: mm . marketing: exactly . user interface: yeah . marketing: um second , uh it should be technologically innovative innovative . so project manager: what 's that mean ? marketing: technologically it should be like um work , basically , i guess . it should work . user interface: well it should be it should be maybe cutting edge in some sense , marketing: should user interface: i mean have something that 's little more technologically advanced than what 's on the market . marketing: that 's new . project manager: okay , now the trouble is is we 've already decided that we 're going with the stuff that works already , that 's cheap . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . actually , i mean , these first two points we 've already sort of gone away from , marketing: yeah . user interface: 'cause our rubber one is not fancy project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: i mean it 's different , but i would n't say like a rubber remote is fancy . if that 's what people want then we maybe we 're going in the wrong direction . and it 's it 's not technologically innovative either . project manager: maybe we could um marketing: so , no loose user interface: mm . marketing: that 's why i was thinking , bluetooth , 'cause if you like put up bluetooth , and it 's like a bluetooth remote control , everybody 's gon na like , oh , 'cause bluetooth is the in thing nowadays , like it really is , like people and um when it comes to marketing like that 's what people go for , they do n't really care whether , you know , at the end of the day whether it works properly or not . project manager: of course , they do . marketing: well , they do , but it 's like it 's not project manager: one hundred per cent , that 's your first thing , you go , oh i 'm not gon na buy that , 'cause i dunno if it works or not . marketing: yeah , but it looks good . if it looks good and it 's it can just be there for decoration . project manager: okay , well , what do you two think about this ? user interface: so is is the advantage of bluetooth that you can just like synchronise it with other marketing: but like project manager: yeah , what i do n't understand what m user interface: electronics ? marketing: you could always insert , yeah . user interface: yeah , that 's basically what it allows you to do , project manager: yeah , user interface: right ? project manager: and it this is just gon na all this is being used for is your television . marketing: yeah , but , i mean , people like project manager: it would that would mean you 'd need a television that has bluetooth in it , which no no television does , marketing: well , if you 're looking at if you looking at something that 's going to be bought by people , you have to make it new , you have to make it state of the art . industrial designer: well project manager: does it ? that would mean we 'd have to make a television as well . industrial designer: bluetooth would , for example , enable you , i think , to um um connect for example you if you get a w call on your mobile phone , but your mobile phone is downstairs or something , you would get on your television you 're being called by this person right now . things like that . project manager: no , that would be your telephone in with your television . industrial designer: no i user interface: yeah , the that would n't be the remote so much , project manager: yeah , user interface: i mean project manager: and i industrial designer: no , but if you get bluetooth on the remote , you 'd be able to project manager: nah , the televi the television would have to be a bluetooth compatible , basically . industrial designer: i with the television , yeah . i was just trying to find an advantage . wha what w what advantage would you get for the user interface: mm . marketing: well , it does n't project manager: an and there is no there is no such thing marketing: like it does n't have to be , you know , bluetooth , that was just an idea , but like it needs do something that , you know , is new . whether it 's a battery it could be something really really minor , you know , like but i think we are really keeping to what is already out there , and people 've already seen it , people 've already got it . project manager: okay . marketing: if we want something new , we need to move away from what we already have and um just go creative . industrial designer: maybe the kinetic mo provision of energy then . it 's been done for watches , but i have n't seen that for remotes , yet . project manager: okay . yeah , this that 's that 's very good . marketing: and then you can market it . never have to change a battery again . industrial designer: change the batteries ever again . project manager: and and this is all tying in very nicely . marketing: project manager: the fact that it 's made out of this rubber , we can throw it about . th we should encourage people to throw their remote controls about , because it charges itself up by doing it . industrial designer: yeah , well , and in little characters you say , yeah , but not too much . user interface: yes , so can project manager: but yeah , by the squeezing it the marketing: i think , safety s user interface: yeah , we can make the squeezing of the rubber be the be the generating like the energy generator . project manager: yeah , that 's a great idea . well done . marketing: yeah . third most important aspect uh is it 's easy to use . user interface: we 're all about that . marketing: and i think we 've all um worked that out . um okay , in the fashion , how it 's supposed to look . next year 's fashion i very much in fruit and vegetables are thm are like the theme for cloths , shoes and furniture . so next year people will be buying , i found this really funny , you know , strawberry shaped chairs , industrial designer: user interface: okay , so we could have keys that are like a b like a broccoli key and a uh and an avocado key on them . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: i wan na watch the pineapple channel . marketing: rubber things . um and as it 's rubber the feel which is in this year is spongy , so it 's it 's not quite spongy , but spongy , i would say is user interface: . project manager: well spongy , that 's where . yeah , we 're we 're ahead of the game there . user interface: yeah , that 's great for us . marketing: yeah , so we 're in . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . and so personal what i was just saying like move away from the current remote controls uh like the look and the feel of the current ones and change the look and feel , while still keeping to the company 's image , basically . so yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: . i had to say user interface: right . marketing: so we 're moving in the right direction like project manager: alright , yeah , no , this i this is good , user interface: yeah . project manager: so through all that we 've we go we 're right , we 're gon na go go back to um going with the kinetic thing , industrial designer: yep . user interface: yeah , that 's great . project manager: that 's great , using the spongy rubber that we were talking about that anti-r_s_i_ you can as you squeeze it you are not only therapeuticising yourself , you are charging the batteries , marketing: mm . project manager: and um i 'm not sure about the buttons being in the shape of fruit though . industrial designer: no vegetables . marketing: user interface: yeah , i do n't know how we incorporate project manager: . marketing: user interface: we do n't have to follow every trend , i guess . marketing: maybe make it like fruity colours or something . user interface: uh-huh . marketing: some sort . or user interface: the power button could be like a big apple or something . marketing: mm . industrial designer: well yeah , but apple would sue you for that . marketing: project manager: yeah , this is true . user interface: they don they do n't own all images of apples . project manager: industrial designer: sued the beatles so user interface: okay , we 'll make it a uh pomegranate , a big pomegranate . industrial designer: project manager: well , okay , it seems like the only thing that we have n't really finally um agreed on is its image . like , yeah , we 're we 're saying no we do n't want it to be fruit and vegetables , but we dunno what it should be , user interface: . project manager: or like are we going yeah it looks slick , but what do what do we mean by slick sort of thing ? marketing: well i think , if it 's rubber it needs to be project manager: i mean you said earlier on i it should be funky . marketing: different . i think , it 's it should be i mean , what do you associate with rubber ? you know like project manager: l keep it clean , keep it clean . marketing: really different colours basically . industrial designer: marketing: okay , sor i sorry , i used the wrong word , what do you associate with the mate the material that material ? um industrial designer: marketing: um like i 'm just thinking bright colours . user interface: yeah . marketing: bright natural colours , nothing too project manager: bright , but not too bright . marketing: bright , but too not yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: like no lime green or bright yellow or bright pink . wan na make it different colours so anybody can choo like like project manager: like the volume buttons should be the all the same colour and the d and the the channel buttons should be one colour and stuff like that , do you mean ? user interface: mm . marketing: yeah . and on the back of it have the logo . project manager: okay , what ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: sure . industrial designer: why not ? project manager: okay . tha user interface: the one thing i 'm wondering about , i hope that we 're not going like too much down a gimmicky road of of having project manager: yeah , i mean we that 's we we user interface: i mean if somebody go goes into the store they 're gon na see like three or four normal remotes , and then a big spongy pink t tomato uh remote . marketing: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: this is the remote control tomato . user interface: i mean what are ninety per cent of people gon na take ? marketing: well i can say in this country , you 'll get , you know , lots of people wanting something really funky and cool . like and kids will be walking in with their parents saying , mummy i wan na buy that one . project manager: marketing: and uh parents will see the will see the pro as well , because it 's um like kids wo n't break it , it 's not breakable if you throw it around . project manager: yeah . marketing: especially with younger kids , you know they can pick it up and and yeah . the only thing is is that really small kids might chew on it , but project manager: well , it 's it 's got ta be chew proof . user interface: marketing: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: i 'm gon na write that down . marketing: so user interface: marketing: so it 's rea it 's quite project manager: marketing: it 's quite like um user friendly industrial designer: marketing: and also for different families , like like family use as well , so for little kids and for old ki like teenagers will like it , i think . especially maybe younger girls if it 's in pink they 'll be like pink remote control for their room something . project manager: so , what are you saying , maybe we should market it in different colours for different marketing: yeah . project manager: so we could do like the pink range , the blue range , the green range , the industrial designer: that 's yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: so like you walk in , you 're like , oh i like that remote control , because it 's so bright , and then , and then the shop assistant comes up and says , oh what colour would you like ? and then they go like , oh i can choose the colour wow . so it puts , i think , even the customer into more control over what they 're buying instead of , you 've got all colour it 's either that or nothing . so they also get to pick . well , personally i like walking into a shop and choosing a colour . user interface: yeah i mean , that that seems to work well with for products like ipod , marketing: it 's um user interface: where , you know , you have a variety of colours , that people feel like they 're customising it when they buy it , even , you know , just just by the fact of choosing . project manager: mm . marketing: yeah . mm . industrial designer: although i 'd be curious to see how many uh marketing: d you 've got the industrial designer: you know , there are some colours that i wouldn i would never choose , and i would be curious how many people choose that colour . project manager: well that 's that can be down to bit of market researching you know , user interface: right . project manager: if that 's easy enough to find out what colours are more popular . industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and produce less of the silly colours , maybe . project manager: mm . industrial designer: project manager: okay . alright . well um , we 'll alright let 's what we 're gon na aim to get together by the next meeting then um is from you catherine wi your y y you know you 're gon na be working on the the look and feel design . industrial designer: yep . project manager: um gabriel , you 're gon na be working on , you know come up with the the user interface design . then basically , you two are gon na be working together on this . you wo n't be going off to your separate offices . industrial designer: alright . user interface: okay . project manager: um and i think you are gon na get a chance to play with some clay . user interface: oh right . project manager: i think , yeah , it 's gon na you know , industrial designer: mm . project manager: come up ki you know , be ab for the next meeting be able to come in and show us some some i some physical ideas . 'cause at the moment , uh you know , it 's it 's hard . industrial designer: cool . project manager: we were kinda going , yeah , it 's got ta feel nice , it 's got ta look cool and that it 's industrial designer: it is . user interface: yeah . project manager: you know now we can actually start , you know , s some sort of physical something or other . user interface: that sounds good . project manager: um and you 're gon na be working on the product evaluation . marketing: evaluation . project manager: um . and i will be uh industrial designer: marketing: project manager: talking to the bosses , basically , and uh marketing: project manager: f fielding off some more spam and uh industrial designer: great . project manager: that 's it really . keeping things t well , uh you know , ho hopefully uh keeping things together . um . yeah , that 's this is this is uh good . so we know for definite we know we 've we 've now got some definite things going on . we definitely know how it 's powered , user interface: mm . project manager: we definitely know that um it 's gon na be a simple buttons , we 're not gon na be going for the new technological chip on print expensive things , so we 've we 're keeping the costs down . it 's this rubber casing that we can sell as um fun and funky . do n't know of any other remote controls that are made out of this stuff . marketing: mm . project manager: people , you know , people are saying , oh , standard stuff gives you repetitive strain injury , well this remote control is designed to do the complete opposite , marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's supposed to fix it rather than cause it . um . you know , we 're gon na we we 're gon na as a sort of extra something on it , you know what what extra things are there extra things this product have ? we 'll look into this lock key user interface: right . project manager: facility , although whether or not it happens , or is possible , i do n't know , but something to look into . okay . i think that 's um well done everybody . anyone have any uh any questions , user interface: alright . project manager: everyone know what they 're doing ? 'cause if you do n't , you 'll i 'm sure you 'll soon get an e-mail about it . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . marketing: user interface: mm , i think we all know what we need to do now . marketing: s this gives you all the details ? project manager: okay . right well . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's um we 're we 've still couple of minutes until our meeting 's due to finish . but um i got a note saying that you two who are gon na be working together marketing: project manager: so bef before you all disappear off just user interface: okay , i 'll stay in here . marketing: um . user interface: project manager: hold hold fire . um . user interface: does the pay-raise immediately come into effect on our next pay-check , or is that project manager: um i think , it 's uh , yeah , i think , it 's gon na be par part more of a profit sharing on the product . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: so we 're buying fut i mean , we 're getting futures in the company . project manager: yeah , i think i i think that 's i think that 's the way it 's gon na happen at the moment . user interface: so we really have a incentive to make this remote work . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: i 'd like to share in the coffee machine profits , because that 's really doing well . project manager: i want a share in the space rocket . did you see that this k that this company we 've made a spaceship . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . . marketing: yeah . user interface: this company has its its fingers in a lot of different pots . marketing: project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: yeah , we 're definitely not in the money making department . marketing: project manager: . user interface: well i i did notice looking at i mean , they told you that they wanted whatev our product to represent the the r_r_ brand and and to be immediately noticeable . project manager: yeah . user interface: i mean , if you look like at the coffee maker at the at the corporate web page , it 's not obvious . marketing: mm . user interface: r_r_ . well it is to us , because we we worked worked here for years and we use that coffee machine , but it 's does n't have the colour scheme of of the of the company anywhere on it obviously it 's just sil silver and black . project manager: mm . industrial designer: that 's true . project manager: and the spaceship does n't have the r_ have a massive r_ and r_ down the side of it user interface: no . industrial designer: does n't project manager: but i still want one . user interface: mm . project manager: okay . um i 've just had a sign flashing up saying , finish the meeting . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh . user interface: okay . project manager: yeah . user interface: right , well , i guess that 's us . project manager: yeah . it 's not telling it 's not saying do anything in particular just yet . so maybe you should go back to your own offices . user interface: okay . right . industrial designer: are we taking these off ? project manager: yeah . yeah , it says you two { disfmarker }

user interface made a presentation on buttons the control should include and on the layout of the buttons . the team vetoed the idea of the speech recognition interface which is expensive and unnecessary . at last the team decided not to have any sort of display , but a simple straight set of push-buttons , with a power , channel up , channel down , volume up , volume down , a numerical keypad , and a lock button or a cover . then they discussed some supplements like colours or particular gimmicky bits . user interface proposed the utilization of a couple of colours like black and yellow , with special parts like the rr logo in yellow . user interface suggested having a rubber case for safety reasons .

what did the group discuss about marketing 's presentation on three important marketing points that the team should pay attention to ? </s> marketing: oh right okay . i cover myself up . project manager: i feel like madonna with one of these on . i said i feel like madonna with one of these on . industrial designer: marketing: . project manager: marketing: i 've always wanted one of these , i really have . where do you buy 'em from ? they 're . project manager: user interface: marketing: project manager: right . hello everybody . user interface: hello . project manager: back again for another wonderful meeting . industrial designer: . marketing: project manager: is uh everyone ready ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: almost . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , we c we can hold on for a minute . marketing: oh my gosh . project manager: i figured with the spam thing , if you ca n't beat it , join in . user interface: marketing: user interface: that 's the kind of spam that everybody likes to receive . marketing: industrial designer: mm 'kay . project manager: are you ready ? okay , right , well , i take it that you are all ready now . marketing: project manager: um alright first off we 'll just uh recap from our last meeting . um which was we got together just to basically decide on well to talk about what it is that we were actually uh supposed to be doing , marketing: project manager: and who we all are and stuff like that , mm get bit more of an idea together of what 's going on . um what we are gon na talk about in this meeting is um now that we know what it is that we are doing , now we know that it 's a tv remote and stuff and you guys have just been off doing some some uh r_ and d_ for that , that 's research and development for those that have n't heard that before , user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: see i 'm learning all sorts of new technologi terms in technology today . um yeah , we 're gon na hear your uh th three little presentations , marketing: project manager: whether they be on computer or on the whiteboard or whatever you want . user interface: hmm . do you have any preference uh of order ? project manager: um i 'd like to um hear marketing: project manager: o i 'd like to hear who 's g who 's on the um from from uh catherine actually first . i want what i 'd like to hear about is uh if we 've finally decided on um what sort of energy we 're gon na be using and industrial designer: marketing: batteries . user interface: i think she is still finishing her . industrial designer: no no no no , it 's fine i 'm just preparing . project manager: it 's just that yeah , let 's let 's hear from you first . industrial designer: okay . user interface: hmm . industrial designer: where is that thing ? user interface: okay , it 's uh marketing: it 's here . industrial designer: oh sorry , could n't see . marketing: industrial designer: would that work ? project manager: get yourself in position . industrial designer: okay , so that 's me again . marketing: ah . industrial designer: um so um for the energy sources we can have a basic battery , a hand dynamo which is which was used uh in the fifties for torches , if you remember that kind of which would n't be v would n't be v v project manager: i do n't think any of us remember the fifties . user interface: is it like a crank thing or something . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . it would n't be very fancy . marketing: industrial designer: you can have a kinetic provision of energy , which is used on some watches these days . so if you have just a bit of gentle movement that it will give it the energy to work . marketing: mm . industrial designer: or you can use solar cells , but i 'm not sure about that indoors , really , but user interface: well , there 's sometimes combinations , i mean , like calculators do combinations of battery with but also using some solar power . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: do sol solar panel things , do they have to work from the sun or can they work from a light bulb ? marketing: mm . project manager: does anybody know ? industrial designer: i dunno actually . user interface: uh i think , it has to be on the on the solar energy , but i do n't know . industrial designer: i dunno . um . think the the uh what would cost the less would be the basic battery , really . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and uh if we want something fancier , i think the kinetic provision of energy could be nice , marketing: mm . industrial designer: but i do n't know if it 's worth the cost . so we 've got to discuss that . project manager: mm . okay , jolly good . industrial designer: for the case of the remotes itself , um they can be a general case , which is just a flat one . you can have uh a curved one or a double curved one , if you know what i mean , so project manager: what 's a double curved one ? industrial designer: you know , kind of more ergonomic , that kind of suits the palm of your hand , that kind of thing . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so um then the case material itself , so it can be uh uh either plastic or latex , uh rubber , wood , or titanium . and th for each of them you have uh cases where for example titanium , you ca n't use it for if you if we 're choosing a double curved case , we ca n't choose titanium . and if we are choosing um solar cells then we ca n't choose latex for the case material , so we just have to take that into account . but if we 're choosing just the flat case then we can go for anything . and i think we discussed earlier on the r_ s_ i_ problem thing , so we could uh project manager: so that might be an idea of using the rubber , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: but then it should , you know user interface: let 's have a squeezable remote . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . and also it does n't break as easily maybe , project manager: when a tv programme 's got one industrial designer: i dunno user interface: project manager: watching the match and your team 's just lost , you can fuzz it across the room and it 'll bounce off the wall back at you . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , i like that idea . marketing: mm . industrial designer: so rubber would be okay . marketing: i think rubber 's project manager: rubber , we 're all we 're all going we 're all liking that idea ? you think you can market that ? marketing: but after my after my fashion thing , i think you 'll realise that rubber is more project manager: ooh , we like rubber , ooh . industrial designer: uh s so if d marketing: people . industrial designer: okay . and then there are the push-buttons , so you can have basic push-buttons or a scroll-wheels , like you have on a mouse , um or you could have um lcd , which gives you a display . um scroll buttons , as well . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: so if you use a rubber double curved case , you must use rubber push-buttons . so if we 're going for rubber then we have to decide for the case . um and if we choose double curved then we have to go for rubber push-buttons . project manager: well , we 're gon na go with i think we 've decided that it 's gon na be a rubber case so industrial designer: so it 's a constraint . yeah , but is it a double curved one or not ? if it 's not a double curved , then we 've got the choice for the push-buttons , if it 's a double curve , we 've got ta go for rubber push-buttons . if that makes sense . project manager: push buttons instead of the wheel ? industrial designer: yeah . . user interface: if it 's rubber , is n't it malleable anyway , it does n't matter if it 's double i mean is n't a rubber case , mean it 's completely flexed , i mean , it it flexes to whatever they want it to ? mean so what 's the difference between a normal rubber case and a rubble doub double rubber double curved case ? project manager: rubble double double . industrial designer: no , but na le you see , you 've got , okay , the energy that 's one thing , project manager: i 'll have a big mac , please . industrial designer: then you have the case is uh , whether it 's flat or curved . and that 's we do n't care if it 's rub rubber or not , but then we 've decided that we going for rubber for the case material . so if we 've chosen rub rubber and if now we have the choice for the case whether it 's flat , single curved or double curved . and i 'm just saying if it if we choose it to be double curved then we need to go i dunno why , but we need to go for uh rubber push-buttons . so , either user interface: okay . industrial designer: i dunno we just need to decide on the on the case . project manager: let 's have rubber push buttons , hey . user interface: okay . go rubber . go rubber the whole way . industrial designer: let 's go crazy . and then , do i have a last slide ? yes , i do . um so the push-buttons themselves they can be just simple or they can be so that 's just the electronics between the but behind the push-buttons . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um and the price that go with it with it , so the simple push-buttons are gon na be the cheapest . uh if we get a scroll-wheel , that 's a higher price range . if we get an advanced chip which is um used for the lcd , the display thing , then that 's even more expensive . project manager: simple , yeah . chip on print . it 's a bit . okay , uh what i 'm not understanding here industrial designer: mm . project manager: is uh , okay , advanced chip on print , which i presume is like one p_c_b_ and that 's got all the electronics on one board including the um infra-red sender ? industrial designer: . yeah . marketing: industrial designer: the infra-red . yeah . project manager: right . um what a what alternatives do we have to that ? y um what alternatives do we have to the chip on print ? industrial designer: well , if if it 's not chip on print then , i guess , you get different chip components , and you build them separately and does n't include the infra-red . it 's less expensive mm project manager: so it sounds industrial designer: technically speaking , it 's not as advanced , but it does the job , too . project manager: so , why would we not go for that ? if it 's something that 's inside the the unit . i it does n't affects whether the customer 's gon na buy it or not . industrial designer: fo it does n't , yeah , yeah , yeah . totally . yeah . project manager: um we wan na go for an i i all industrial designer: so let 's not go for the project manager: so long as it works , industrial designer: yeah , yeah . i agree . project manager: you know . so let 's not let 's uh not bother with the chip on print . industrial designer: so it 's either um the scroll-wheel or the push-buttons . project manager: yeah . s yeah , push buttons . marketing: what about the just developed uh sample sensor ? user interface: i think push-buttons is project manager: what about what ? marketing: g there , the sample sensor , sample speaker thing . industrial designer: well project manager: well , what do we need a speaker for in a remote control unit ? marketing: mm , i dunno . be cool . industrial designer: it 'd be it 'd be cool , but they are saying they 've just developed it , user interface: yeah . marketing: channel two . industrial designer: i 'm just guessing . but it 's gon na be the most expensive option , probably and project manager: s user interface: th the the speech recognition um option is it does n't seem really very promising for us uh , project manager: yeah . it 's not something that we wan na t go into with this product . user interface: 'cause uh the yeah the example that they 're already using it for is with the coffee machine , where , basically , you can program a sample wi um that when you say something it will give a response , and you program the response as well . just uh clips of tha that you record yourself . so you can program your coffee-maker that when you say , good morning , to it it says , hello rick , or whatever . project manager: yeah . user interface: but , i mean , it 's not industrial designer: hm . user interface: it would be one thing if it was speech recognition where you say something and it turns the tv on like , turn the tv on , and i turns comes on , but it 's not that . it just gives you a it just gives you a verbal response . marketing: oh , it just gives an answer . user interface: so , yeah , i mean , like what 's the point of saying , hello remote , i mean , hello , how how are you ? marketing: oh , then then project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: just if you are really lonely , maybe . marketing: i thought i thought it was when they said user interface: yeah , if you 're really lonely , it is it 's marketing: i thought when they said , voice recognition , they meant um like , industrial designer: channel five . and then it switches on . marketing: channel five , and it will change . user interface: no , tha that w that w that would be more promising . marketing: like you talk to it . can i have channel five ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: it it 's just a remote that talks to you . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: uh . i mean to certain cues . marketing: oh , then forget about it . oh right okay . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay , so i 'll go back , maybe , to the previous slide and we can decide for each problem , what we should choose . so for the energy source , do we go for the battery or the user interface: 'kay . yeah , i 'm fine with the basic battery . project manager: basic battery . marketing: mm . project manager: it 's cheap , it 's cheerful , it 's worked , does work . user interface: hmm . industrial designer: cheaper option . are you happy with that ? marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: okay . so we 'll go for the battery . then the case , do you want it flat or curved or sing or double curved ? project manager: we were go we were going with the late with the the r_s_i_ rubber , were n't we ? user interface: yeah , so we want it rub rubber double curved . project manager: the the marketing: so it will look like something like this . industrial designer: double ? project manager: the double whopper , please . industrial designer: okay , so then if we use double curved case , then we have to u choose rubber push-buttons , project manager: yep , but we 're going for the simple buttons . user interface: so rubber rubber keys , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and that 's fine ? project manager: and it 's cheapest all round , it sounds kinda funky , and we can also market it industrial designer: p user interface: yeah . project manager: as i 'cause we were s saying earl you were saying earlier in your research that um the the people have the r_ people were getting the complaining about r_s_i_ , and this is anti-r_s_i_ . marketing: . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so that 's another marketing point that we can use . marketing: well the rubber push-buttons . do n't you have to move your project manager: but anything is gon na have buttons . marketing: mm . project manager: even if it 's a jog wheel , it 's still repetitive . you industrial designer: i thought they would give an option of flat buttons or a project manager: you see , you can still get it does you still get repetitive strain injury , whether you are pressing a button or pressing a flat bit of screen . industrial designer: that they do n't . project manager: it 's the v it 's the fact that you are pressing the same doing the same movement . industrial designer: mm . user interface: . project manager: it 's not actually what you are doing . industrial designer: project manager: but the fact that this this rubber i is actually used in these anti-r_s_i_ ps specific marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , the rubber 's good . user interface: we 're giving them a way to burn off steam , basically , yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , so they can sit there and go like user interface: not that watching tv should be that stressful . project manager: and you know , yeah , you can fuzz it across the room and throw it at throw it at your children yeah . marketing: user interface: oh yeah , i guess tv can be stressful , yeah , if you 're watching sports . marketing: industrial designer: alright , that 's me done . project manager: okay , gabriel . let 's um let 's let 's hear from you about the um it 's the interface . user interface: alright . alright . yeah , some of what i have to say ties into what catherine was just talking about . project manager: great . industrial designer: sorry . user interface: okay , so i 'm continuing with the user interface uh topic . and so basically i consulted with our manufacturing division . it sounded like catherine was also speaking with them . uh i also took uh reissa 's marketing findings from the last meeting into consideration um , 'cause i think that 's that 's crucial as far as uh what keys we 're going to inc inclu what buttons we are going to include and and how they 're laid out . project manager: mm . user interface: uh and so the manufacturing division uh sent some some samples of of uh interface components that we might be interested in using that have been used in other products , uh like the coffee machine . so i already mentioned the speech recognition interface . marketing: user interface: i guess , we we basically vetoed that idea . it 's it 's pointless . project manager: mm . user interface: uh it 's just a sample sensor sample output . it would just be probably the most expensive part of our remote without any actual interesting functionality as far as operating the tv . uh so yeah , they they also give the uh they they suggested the idea of using a spinning wheel like you use on the side of an m_p_ three player like ipod . project manager: mm . marketing: mm . user interface: um so we 've already addressed that and i think that would actually be worse for something like r_s_i_ i mean you got that thumb movement that you 're constantly doing . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: um the other suggestion , marketing: that does get annoying . user interface: and i i have a feeling that we 're interested in in something more general , but they suggested uh , you know , going i a little bit into a a niche , like either gearing our remote towards kids , where you could have lot of colours um , the keys might be you know , funny or or , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: or uh something for the elderly , where the remote 's very large and the buttons are very large and there 's only a few buttons . but you know we can we can discuss this , but it sounded like from our last meeting we really wanted something that was general , but done well . project manager: yeah . user interface: uh um so , the key layout and design are really crucial . you do n't want uh you want people to be able to quickly access the buttons that they use a lot without uh always pressing the wrong one um . and i did n't mention that we need a power button in our last i can give you an example here of uh , good layout and bad layout industrial designer: user interface: uh from our manufacturing department . so this would be an example of bad layout , where you have volume up and volume down , but they have a v_ on both of them , so uh project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: it 's sort of confusing for the user . uh this is the example of the giant remote that 's impossible to lose . project manager: do we have an uh example of a good one ? brilliant . industrial designer: marketing: uh-huh . well user interface: and for something for kids . yeah . um . project manager: yeah . user interface: and so , yeah , i th i think my personal preferences of we 've all kind of talked about and seemed to be on the same page um . uh so i was against the speech recognition and against going uh towards anything in in a niche sense . i think it should be more general . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: i did n't i did n't think the spinning-wheel or the uh l_c_ display were were crucial for us . and , yeah , that 's it for me . project manager: okay . well let 's um so w what are our definite decisions on this then as a team ? the um the the um the interface type we 're going for user interface: so we 're we 're not gon na have any sort of display i think uh . project manager: just the simple s simple straight set of buttons . user interface: so , yeah , it 's just gon na be just gon na be push-buttons . um . i think we shall have a limited number of buttons , project manager: yeah . user interface: ideally , i mean a a power , channel up , channel down , volume up , volume down , and a numerical keypad . project manager: yeah . user interface: uh . and some sort of it will either have a a lock button like we mentioned or or a cover or something like that . project manager: yeah . user interface: i guess it 's to the point where we need to decide about that . project manager: okay , and we 're not yeah . user interface: well now that we 've decided on our project manager: are we gon na hav hav an are we d marketing: project manager: have we decided on whether w we 're gon na s supplement it with anything , you know , colours or particular gimmicky bits to it , we 're not we 're just gon na go for something user interface: um it seems like we would n't wan na make it too busy and too sort of gaudy , project manager: we 're marketing: maybe we can user interface: but um yeah , i would say mayb maybe a couple of colours like uh like a black with with yellow and somewhere , like maybe the r_r_ can be yellow , or something like that . project manager: yeah . yeah . okay . okey-dokey . yeah , i do n't have any other questions on this . let 's move over to user interface: i i guess the fact uh also that we are having a rubber case uh would prevent us from having the cover function that we thought of before . project manager: yeah , sure . user interface: i mean , 'cause uh s so if we wan na have a lock of some sort it would have to be a button . project manager: . user interface: but i think that should be i mean um , i can speak with the button department , but uh i think that it should be easy to have a button that just prevents prevents the other uh the other buttons from operating . project manager: yeah , the button that just does that , yeah . user interface: so that should be simple . project manager: cool . marketing: right . well , i 'm just basically letting you know what 's happening in the markets project manager: mm yeah . marketing: and what the fashions are for next year . um . so yes , so from looking at this year 's trends and fashions project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and also recent investigation that we 've done in the remote control market , we have found that for the remote control market these are like most important aspects like that we really need to project manager: marketing: which we 've already probably discussed . um the most important aspect is look and feel . so the remote control has to look and feel fancier than the ones that already that we already have . so it has to be project manager: yeah , why should people buy this when they 're already got a remote that came with the tv ? marketing: yep . user interface: mm . marketing: exactly . user interface: yeah . marketing: um second , uh it should be technologically innovative innovative . so project manager: what 's that mean ? marketing: technologically it should be like um work , basically , i guess . it should work . user interface: well it should be it should be maybe cutting edge in some sense , marketing: should user interface: i mean have something that 's little more technologically advanced than what 's on the market . marketing: that 's new . project manager: okay , now the trouble is is we 've already decided that we 're going with the stuff that works already , that 's cheap . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . actually , i mean , these first two points we 've already sort of gone away from , marketing: yeah . user interface: 'cause our rubber one is not fancy project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: i mean it 's different , but i would n't say like a rubber remote is fancy . if that 's what people want then we maybe we 're going in the wrong direction . and it 's it 's not technologically innovative either . project manager: maybe we could um marketing: so , no loose user interface: mm . marketing: that 's why i was thinking , bluetooth , 'cause if you like put up bluetooth , and it 's like a bluetooth remote control , everybody 's gon na like , oh , 'cause bluetooth is the in thing nowadays , like it really is , like people and um when it comes to marketing like that 's what people go for , they do n't really care whether , you know , at the end of the day whether it works properly or not . project manager: of course , they do . marketing: well , they do , but it 's like it 's not project manager: one hundred per cent , that 's your first thing , you go , oh i 'm not gon na buy that , 'cause i dunno if it works or not . marketing: yeah , but it looks good . if it looks good and it 's it can just be there for decoration . project manager: okay , well , what do you two think about this ? user interface: so is is the advantage of bluetooth that you can just like synchronise it with other marketing: but like project manager: yeah , what i do n't understand what m user interface: electronics ? marketing: you could always insert , yeah . user interface: yeah , that 's basically what it allows you to do , project manager: yeah , user interface: right ? project manager: and it this is just gon na all this is being used for is your television . marketing: yeah , but , i mean , people like project manager: it would that would mean you 'd need a television that has bluetooth in it , which no no television does , marketing: well , if you 're looking at if you looking at something that 's going to be bought by people , you have to make it new , you have to make it state of the art . industrial designer: well project manager: does it ? that would mean we 'd have to make a television as well . industrial designer: bluetooth would , for example , enable you , i think , to um um connect for example you if you get a w call on your mobile phone , but your mobile phone is downstairs or something , you would get on your television you 're being called by this person right now . things like that . project manager: no , that would be your telephone in with your television . industrial designer: no i user interface: yeah , the that would n't be the remote so much , project manager: yeah , user interface: i mean project manager: and i industrial designer: no , but if you get bluetooth on the remote , you 'd be able to project manager: nah , the televi the television would have to be a bluetooth compatible , basically . industrial designer: i with the television , yeah . i was just trying to find an advantage . wha what w what advantage would you get for the user interface: mm . marketing: well , it does n't project manager: an and there is no there is no such thing marketing: like it does n't have to be , you know , bluetooth , that was just an idea , but like it needs do something that , you know , is new . whether it 's a battery it could be something really really minor , you know , like but i think we are really keeping to what is already out there , and people 've already seen it , people 've already got it . project manager: okay . marketing: if we want something new , we need to move away from what we already have and um just go creative . industrial designer: maybe the kinetic mo provision of energy then . it 's been done for watches , but i have n't seen that for remotes , yet . project manager: okay . yeah , this that 's that 's very good . marketing: and then you can market it . never have to change a battery again . industrial designer: change the batteries ever again . project manager: and and this is all tying in very nicely . marketing: project manager: the fact that it 's made out of this rubber , we can throw it about . th we should encourage people to throw their remote controls about , because it charges itself up by doing it . industrial designer: yeah , well , and in little characters you say , yeah , but not too much . user interface: yes , so can project manager: but yeah , by the squeezing it the marketing: i think , safety s user interface: yeah , we can make the squeezing of the rubber be the be the generating like the energy generator . project manager: yeah , that 's a great idea . well done . marketing: yeah . third most important aspect uh is it 's easy to use . user interface: we 're all about that . marketing: and i think we 've all um worked that out . um okay , in the fashion , how it 's supposed to look . next year 's fashion i very much in fruit and vegetables are thm are like the theme for cloths , shoes and furniture . so next year people will be buying , i found this really funny , you know , strawberry shaped chairs , industrial designer: user interface: okay , so we could have keys that are like a b like a broccoli key and a uh and an avocado key on them . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: i wan na watch the pineapple channel . marketing: rubber things . um and as it 's rubber the feel which is in this year is spongy , so it 's it 's not quite spongy , but spongy , i would say is user interface: . project manager: well spongy , that 's where . yeah , we 're we 're ahead of the game there . user interface: yeah , that 's great for us . marketing: yeah , so we 're in . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . and so personal what i was just saying like move away from the current remote controls uh like the look and the feel of the current ones and change the look and feel , while still keeping to the company 's image , basically . so yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: . i had to say user interface: right . marketing: so we 're moving in the right direction like project manager: alright , yeah , no , this i this is good , user interface: yeah . project manager: so through all that we 've we go we 're right , we 're gon na go go back to um going with the kinetic thing , industrial designer: yep . user interface: yeah , that 's great . project manager: that 's great , using the spongy rubber that we were talking about that anti-r_s_i_ you can as you squeeze it you are not only therapeuticising yourself , you are charging the batteries , marketing: mm . project manager: and um i 'm not sure about the buttons being in the shape of fruit though . industrial designer: no vegetables . marketing: user interface: yeah , i do n't know how we incorporate project manager: . marketing: user interface: we do n't have to follow every trend , i guess . marketing: maybe make it like fruity colours or something . user interface: uh-huh . marketing: some sort . or user interface: the power button could be like a big apple or something . marketing: mm . industrial designer: well yeah , but apple would sue you for that . marketing: project manager: yeah , this is true . user interface: they don they do n't own all images of apples . project manager: industrial designer: sued the beatles so user interface: okay , we 'll make it a uh pomegranate , a big pomegranate . industrial designer: project manager: well , okay , it seems like the only thing that we have n't really finally um agreed on is its image . like , yeah , we 're we 're saying no we do n't want it to be fruit and vegetables , but we dunno what it should be , user interface: . project manager: or like are we going yeah it looks slick , but what do what do we mean by slick sort of thing ? marketing: well i think , if it 's rubber it needs to be project manager: i mean you said earlier on i it should be funky . marketing: different . i think , it 's it should be i mean , what do you associate with rubber ? you know like project manager: l keep it clean , keep it clean . marketing: really different colours basically . industrial designer: marketing: okay , sor i sorry , i used the wrong word , what do you associate with the mate the material that material ? um industrial designer: marketing: um like i 'm just thinking bright colours . user interface: yeah . marketing: bright natural colours , nothing too project manager: bright , but not too bright . marketing: bright , but too not yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: like no lime green or bright yellow or bright pink . wan na make it different colours so anybody can choo like like project manager: like the volume buttons should be the all the same colour and the d and the the channel buttons should be one colour and stuff like that , do you mean ? user interface: mm . marketing: yeah . and on the back of it have the logo . project manager: okay , what ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: sure . industrial designer: why not ? project manager: okay . tha user interface: the one thing i 'm wondering about , i hope that we 're not going like too much down a gimmicky road of of having project manager: yeah , i mean we that 's we we user interface: i mean if somebody go goes into the store they 're gon na see like three or four normal remotes , and then a big spongy pink t tomato uh remote . marketing: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: this is the remote control tomato . user interface: i mean what are ninety per cent of people gon na take ? marketing: well i can say in this country , you 'll get , you know , lots of people wanting something really funky and cool . like and kids will be walking in with their parents saying , mummy i wan na buy that one . project manager: marketing: and uh parents will see the will see the pro as well , because it 's um like kids wo n't break it , it 's not breakable if you throw it around . project manager: yeah . marketing: especially with younger kids , you know they can pick it up and and yeah . the only thing is is that really small kids might chew on it , but project manager: well , it 's it 's got ta be chew proof . user interface: marketing: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: i 'm gon na write that down . marketing: so user interface: marketing: so it 's rea it 's quite project manager: marketing: it 's quite like um user friendly industrial designer: marketing: and also for different families , like like family use as well , so for little kids and for old ki like teenagers will like it , i think . especially maybe younger girls if it 's in pink they 'll be like pink remote control for their room something . project manager: so , what are you saying , maybe we should market it in different colours for different marketing: yeah . project manager: so we could do like the pink range , the blue range , the green range , the industrial designer: that 's yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: so like you walk in , you 're like , oh i like that remote control , because it 's so bright , and then , and then the shop assistant comes up and says , oh what colour would you like ? and then they go like , oh i can choose the colour wow . so it puts , i think , even the customer into more control over what they 're buying instead of , you 've got all colour it 's either that or nothing . so they also get to pick . well , personally i like walking into a shop and choosing a colour . user interface: yeah i mean , that that seems to work well with for products like ipod , marketing: it 's um user interface: where , you know , you have a variety of colours , that people feel like they 're customising it when they buy it , even , you know , just just by the fact of choosing . project manager: mm . marketing: yeah . mm . industrial designer: although i 'd be curious to see how many uh marketing: d you 've got the industrial designer: you know , there are some colours that i wouldn i would never choose , and i would be curious how many people choose that colour . project manager: well that 's that can be down to bit of market researching you know , user interface: right . project manager: if that 's easy enough to find out what colours are more popular . industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and produce less of the silly colours , maybe . project manager: mm . industrial designer: project manager: okay . alright . well um , we 'll alright let 's what we 're gon na aim to get together by the next meeting then um is from you catherine wi your y y you know you 're gon na be working on the the look and feel design . industrial designer: yep . project manager: um gabriel , you 're gon na be working on , you know come up with the the user interface design . then basically , you two are gon na be working together on this . you wo n't be going off to your separate offices . industrial designer: alright . user interface: okay . project manager: um and i think you are gon na get a chance to play with some clay . user interface: oh right . project manager: i think , yeah , it 's gon na you know , industrial designer: mm . project manager: come up ki you know , be ab for the next meeting be able to come in and show us some some i some physical ideas . 'cause at the moment , uh you know , it 's it 's hard . industrial designer: cool . project manager: we were kinda going , yeah , it 's got ta feel nice , it 's got ta look cool and that it 's industrial designer: it is . user interface: yeah . project manager: you know now we can actually start , you know , s some sort of physical something or other . user interface: that sounds good . project manager: um and you 're gon na be working on the product evaluation . marketing: evaluation . project manager: um . and i will be uh industrial designer: marketing: project manager: talking to the bosses , basically , and uh marketing: project manager: f fielding off some more spam and uh industrial designer: great . project manager: that 's it really . keeping things t well , uh you know , ho hopefully uh keeping things together . um . yeah , that 's this is this is uh good . so we know for definite we know we 've we 've now got some definite things going on . we definitely know how it 's powered , user interface: mm . project manager: we definitely know that um it 's gon na be a simple buttons , we 're not gon na be going for the new technological chip on print expensive things , so we 've we 're keeping the costs down . it 's this rubber casing that we can sell as um fun and funky . do n't know of any other remote controls that are made out of this stuff . marketing: mm . project manager: people , you know , people are saying , oh , standard stuff gives you repetitive strain injury , well this remote control is designed to do the complete opposite , marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's supposed to fix it rather than cause it . um . you know , we 're gon na we we 're gon na as a sort of extra something on it , you know what what extra things are there extra things this product have ? we 'll look into this lock key user interface: right . project manager: facility , although whether or not it happens , or is possible , i do n't know , but something to look into . okay . i think that 's um well done everybody . anyone have any uh any questions , user interface: alright . project manager: everyone know what they 're doing ? 'cause if you do n't , you 'll i 'm sure you 'll soon get an e-mail about it . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . marketing: user interface: mm , i think we all know what we need to do now . marketing: s this gives you all the details ? project manager: okay . right well . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's um we 're we 've still couple of minutes until our meeting 's due to finish . but um i got a note saying that you two who are gon na be working together marketing: project manager: so bef before you all disappear off just user interface: okay , i 'll stay in here . marketing: um . user interface: project manager: hold hold fire . um . user interface: does the pay-raise immediately come into effect on our next pay-check , or is that project manager: um i think , it 's uh , yeah , i think , it 's gon na be par part more of a profit sharing on the product . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: so we 're buying fut i mean , we 're getting futures in the company . project manager: yeah , i think i i think that 's i think that 's the way it 's gon na happen at the moment . user interface: so we really have a incentive to make this remote work . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: i 'd like to share in the coffee machine profits , because that 's really doing well . project manager: i want a share in the space rocket . did you see that this k that this company we 've made a spaceship . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . . marketing: yeah . user interface: this company has its its fingers in a lot of different pots . marketing: project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: yeah , we 're definitely not in the money making department . marketing: project manager: . user interface: well i i did notice looking at i mean , they told you that they wanted whatev our product to represent the the r_r_ brand and and to be immediately noticeable . project manager: yeah . user interface: i mean , if you look like at the coffee maker at the at the corporate web page , it 's not obvious . marketing: mm . user interface: r_r_ . well it is to us , because we we worked worked here for years and we use that coffee machine , but it 's does n't have the colour scheme of of the of the company anywhere on it obviously it 's just sil silver and black . project manager: mm . industrial designer: that 's true . project manager: and the spaceship does n't have the r_ have a massive r_ and r_ down the side of it user interface: no . industrial designer: does n't project manager: but i still want one . user interface: mm . project manager: okay . um i 've just had a sign flashing up saying , finish the meeting . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh . user interface: okay . project manager: yeah . user interface: right , well , i guess that 's us . project manager: yeah . it 's not telling it 's not saying do anything in particular just yet . so maybe you should go back to your own offices . user interface: okay . right . industrial designer: are we taking these off ? project manager: yeah . yeah , it says you two { disfmarker }

marketing made a presentation on important aspects the team need to pay attention to concerning the remote control market . a most important aspect is its look and feel , so that the remote control has to look and feel fancier to meet customer 's demands . the second point is that it should be technologically innovative . and then they found that the decisions the team had already made on interface did n't match the first two points that marketing had raised . then they discussed the bluetooth function which was turned down and on the kinetic provision of energy . user interface suggested using squeezable rubber which could be an energy generator . the third point that marketing raised was easy to use . she suggested that next year 's fashion would be fruits and vegetables so the team had the idea of making some buttons into fruit shapes . regarding the color of the control , project manager had the idea of marketing the control in different colors for different groups of people like ipod .

what did the team think of marketing 's proposal of bluetooth ? </s> marketing: oh right okay . i cover myself up . project manager: i feel like madonna with one of these on . i said i feel like madonna with one of these on . industrial designer: marketing: . project manager: marketing: i 've always wanted one of these , i really have . where do you buy 'em from ? they 're . project manager: user interface: marketing: project manager: right . hello everybody . user interface: hello . project manager: back again for another wonderful meeting . industrial designer: . marketing: project manager: is uh everyone ready ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: almost . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , we c we can hold on for a minute . marketing: oh my gosh . project manager: i figured with the spam thing , if you ca n't beat it , join in . user interface: marketing: user interface: that 's the kind of spam that everybody likes to receive . marketing: industrial designer: mm 'kay . project manager: are you ready ? okay , right , well , i take it that you are all ready now . marketing: project manager: um alright first off we 'll just uh recap from our last meeting . um which was we got together just to basically decide on well to talk about what it is that we were actually uh supposed to be doing , marketing: project manager: and who we all are and stuff like that , mm get bit more of an idea together of what 's going on . um what we are gon na talk about in this meeting is um now that we know what it is that we are doing , now we know that it 's a tv remote and stuff and you guys have just been off doing some some uh r_ and d_ for that , that 's research and development for those that have n't heard that before , user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: see i 'm learning all sorts of new technologi terms in technology today . um yeah , we 're gon na hear your uh th three little presentations , marketing: project manager: whether they be on computer or on the whiteboard or whatever you want . user interface: hmm . do you have any preference uh of order ? project manager: um i 'd like to um hear marketing: project manager: o i 'd like to hear who 's g who 's on the um from from uh catherine actually first . i want what i 'd like to hear about is uh if we 've finally decided on um what sort of energy we 're gon na be using and industrial designer: marketing: batteries . user interface: i think she is still finishing her . industrial designer: no no no no , it 's fine i 'm just preparing . project manager: it 's just that yeah , let 's let 's hear from you first . industrial designer: okay . user interface: hmm . industrial designer: where is that thing ? user interface: okay , it 's uh marketing: it 's here . industrial designer: oh sorry , could n't see . marketing: industrial designer: would that work ? project manager: get yourself in position . industrial designer: okay , so that 's me again . marketing: ah . industrial designer: um so um for the energy sources we can have a basic battery , a hand dynamo which is which was used uh in the fifties for torches , if you remember that kind of which would n't be v would n't be v v project manager: i do n't think any of us remember the fifties . user interface: is it like a crank thing or something . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . it would n't be very fancy . marketing: industrial designer: you can have a kinetic provision of energy , which is used on some watches these days . so if you have just a bit of gentle movement that it will give it the energy to work . marketing: mm . industrial designer: or you can use solar cells , but i 'm not sure about that indoors , really , but user interface: well , there 's sometimes combinations , i mean , like calculators do combinations of battery with but also using some solar power . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: do sol solar panel things , do they have to work from the sun or can they work from a light bulb ? marketing: mm . project manager: does anybody know ? industrial designer: i dunno actually . user interface: uh i think , it has to be on the on the solar energy , but i do n't know . industrial designer: i dunno . um . think the the uh what would cost the less would be the basic battery , really . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and uh if we want something fancier , i think the kinetic provision of energy could be nice , marketing: mm . industrial designer: but i do n't know if it 's worth the cost . so we 've got to discuss that . project manager: mm . okay , jolly good . industrial designer: for the case of the remotes itself , um they can be a general case , which is just a flat one . you can have uh a curved one or a double curved one , if you know what i mean , so project manager: what 's a double curved one ? industrial designer: you know , kind of more ergonomic , that kind of suits the palm of your hand , that kind of thing . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so um then the case material itself , so it can be uh uh either plastic or latex , uh rubber , wood , or titanium . and th for each of them you have uh cases where for example titanium , you ca n't use it for if you if we 're choosing a double curved case , we ca n't choose titanium . and if we are choosing um solar cells then we ca n't choose latex for the case material , so we just have to take that into account . but if we 're choosing just the flat case then we can go for anything . and i think we discussed earlier on the r_ s_ i_ problem thing , so we could uh project manager: so that might be an idea of using the rubber , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: but then it should , you know user interface: let 's have a squeezable remote . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . and also it does n't break as easily maybe , project manager: when a tv programme 's got one industrial designer: i dunno user interface: project manager: watching the match and your team 's just lost , you can fuzz it across the room and it 'll bounce off the wall back at you . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , i like that idea . marketing: mm . industrial designer: so rubber would be okay . marketing: i think rubber 's project manager: rubber , we 're all we 're all going we 're all liking that idea ? you think you can market that ? marketing: but after my after my fashion thing , i think you 'll realise that rubber is more project manager: ooh , we like rubber , ooh . industrial designer: uh s so if d marketing: people . industrial designer: okay . and then there are the push-buttons , so you can have basic push-buttons or a scroll-wheels , like you have on a mouse , um or you could have um lcd , which gives you a display . um scroll buttons , as well . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: so if you use a rubber double curved case , you must use rubber push-buttons . so if we 're going for rubber then we have to decide for the case . um and if we choose double curved then we have to go for rubber push-buttons . project manager: well , we 're gon na go with i think we 've decided that it 's gon na be a rubber case so industrial designer: so it 's a constraint . yeah , but is it a double curved one or not ? if it 's not a double curved , then we 've got the choice for the push-buttons , if it 's a double curve , we 've got ta go for rubber push-buttons . if that makes sense . project manager: push buttons instead of the wheel ? industrial designer: yeah . . user interface: if it 's rubber , is n't it malleable anyway , it does n't matter if it 's double i mean is n't a rubber case , mean it 's completely flexed , i mean , it it flexes to whatever they want it to ? mean so what 's the difference between a normal rubber case and a rubble doub double rubber double curved case ? project manager: rubble double double . industrial designer: no , but na le you see , you 've got , okay , the energy that 's one thing , project manager: i 'll have a big mac , please . industrial designer: then you have the case is uh , whether it 's flat or curved . and that 's we do n't care if it 's rub rubber or not , but then we 've decided that we going for rubber for the case material . so if we 've chosen rub rubber and if now we have the choice for the case whether it 's flat , single curved or double curved . and i 'm just saying if it if we choose it to be double curved then we need to go i dunno why , but we need to go for uh rubber push-buttons . so , either user interface: okay . industrial designer: i dunno we just need to decide on the on the case . project manager: let 's have rubber push buttons , hey . user interface: okay . go rubber . go rubber the whole way . industrial designer: let 's go crazy . and then , do i have a last slide ? yes , i do . um so the push-buttons themselves they can be just simple or they can be so that 's just the electronics between the but behind the push-buttons . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um and the price that go with it with it , so the simple push-buttons are gon na be the cheapest . uh if we get a scroll-wheel , that 's a higher price range . if we get an advanced chip which is um used for the lcd , the display thing , then that 's even more expensive . project manager: simple , yeah . chip on print . it 's a bit . okay , uh what i 'm not understanding here industrial designer: mm . project manager: is uh , okay , advanced chip on print , which i presume is like one p_c_b_ and that 's got all the electronics on one board including the um infra-red sender ? industrial designer: . yeah . marketing: industrial designer: the infra-red . yeah . project manager: right . um what a what alternatives do we have to that ? y um what alternatives do we have to the chip on print ? industrial designer: well , if if it 's not chip on print then , i guess , you get different chip components , and you build them separately and does n't include the infra-red . it 's less expensive mm project manager: so it sounds industrial designer: technically speaking , it 's not as advanced , but it does the job , too . project manager: so , why would we not go for that ? if it 's something that 's inside the the unit . i it does n't affects whether the customer 's gon na buy it or not . industrial designer: fo it does n't , yeah , yeah , yeah . totally . yeah . project manager: um we wan na go for an i i all industrial designer: so let 's not go for the project manager: so long as it works , industrial designer: yeah , yeah . i agree . project manager: you know . so let 's not let 's uh not bother with the chip on print . industrial designer: so it 's either um the scroll-wheel or the push-buttons . project manager: yeah . s yeah , push buttons . marketing: what about the just developed uh sample sensor ? user interface: i think push-buttons is project manager: what about what ? marketing: g there , the sample sensor , sample speaker thing . industrial designer: well project manager: well , what do we need a speaker for in a remote control unit ? marketing: mm , i dunno . be cool . industrial designer: it 'd be it 'd be cool , but they are saying they 've just developed it , user interface: yeah . marketing: channel two . industrial designer: i 'm just guessing . but it 's gon na be the most expensive option , probably and project manager: s user interface: th the the speech recognition um option is it does n't seem really very promising for us uh , project manager: yeah . it 's not something that we wan na t go into with this product . user interface: 'cause uh the yeah the example that they 're already using it for is with the coffee machine , where , basically , you can program a sample wi um that when you say something it will give a response , and you program the response as well . just uh clips of tha that you record yourself . so you can program your coffee-maker that when you say , good morning , to it it says , hello rick , or whatever . project manager: yeah . user interface: but , i mean , it 's not industrial designer: hm . user interface: it would be one thing if it was speech recognition where you say something and it turns the tv on like , turn the tv on , and i turns comes on , but it 's not that . it just gives you a it just gives you a verbal response . marketing: oh , it just gives an answer . user interface: so , yeah , i mean , like what 's the point of saying , hello remote , i mean , hello , how how are you ? marketing: oh , then then project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: just if you are really lonely , maybe . marketing: i thought i thought it was when they said user interface: yeah , if you 're really lonely , it is it 's marketing: i thought when they said , voice recognition , they meant um like , industrial designer: channel five . and then it switches on . marketing: channel five , and it will change . user interface: no , tha that w that w that would be more promising . marketing: like you talk to it . can i have channel five ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: it it 's just a remote that talks to you . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: uh . i mean to certain cues . marketing: oh , then forget about it . oh right okay . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay , so i 'll go back , maybe , to the previous slide and we can decide for each problem , what we should choose . so for the energy source , do we go for the battery or the user interface: 'kay . yeah , i 'm fine with the basic battery . project manager: basic battery . marketing: mm . project manager: it 's cheap , it 's cheerful , it 's worked , does work . user interface: hmm . industrial designer: cheaper option . are you happy with that ? marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: okay . so we 'll go for the battery . then the case , do you want it flat or curved or sing or double curved ? project manager: we were go we were going with the late with the the r_s_i_ rubber , were n't we ? user interface: yeah , so we want it rub rubber double curved . project manager: the the marketing: so it will look like something like this . industrial designer: double ? project manager: the double whopper , please . industrial designer: okay , so then if we use double curved case , then we have to u choose rubber push-buttons , project manager: yep , but we 're going for the simple buttons . user interface: so rubber rubber keys , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and that 's fine ? project manager: and it 's cheapest all round , it sounds kinda funky , and we can also market it industrial designer: p user interface: yeah . project manager: as i 'cause we were s saying earl you were saying earlier in your research that um the the people have the r_ people were getting the complaining about r_s_i_ , and this is anti-r_s_i_ . marketing: . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so that 's another marketing point that we can use . marketing: well the rubber push-buttons . do n't you have to move your project manager: but anything is gon na have buttons . marketing: mm . project manager: even if it 's a jog wheel , it 's still repetitive . you industrial designer: i thought they would give an option of flat buttons or a project manager: you see , you can still get it does you still get repetitive strain injury , whether you are pressing a button or pressing a flat bit of screen . industrial designer: that they do n't . project manager: it 's the v it 's the fact that you are pressing the same doing the same movement . industrial designer: mm . user interface: . project manager: it 's not actually what you are doing . industrial designer: project manager: but the fact that this this rubber i is actually used in these anti-r_s_i_ ps specific marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , the rubber 's good . user interface: we 're giving them a way to burn off steam , basically , yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , so they can sit there and go like user interface: not that watching tv should be that stressful . project manager: and you know , yeah , you can fuzz it across the room and throw it at throw it at your children yeah . marketing: user interface: oh yeah , i guess tv can be stressful , yeah , if you 're watching sports . marketing: industrial designer: alright , that 's me done . project manager: okay , gabriel . let 's um let 's let 's hear from you about the um it 's the interface . user interface: alright . alright . yeah , some of what i have to say ties into what catherine was just talking about . project manager: great . industrial designer: sorry . user interface: okay , so i 'm continuing with the user interface uh topic . and so basically i consulted with our manufacturing division . it sounded like catherine was also speaking with them . uh i also took uh reissa 's marketing findings from the last meeting into consideration um , 'cause i think that 's that 's crucial as far as uh what keys we 're going to inc inclu what buttons we are going to include and and how they 're laid out . project manager: mm . user interface: uh and so the manufacturing division uh sent some some samples of of uh interface components that we might be interested in using that have been used in other products , uh like the coffee machine . so i already mentioned the speech recognition interface . marketing: user interface: i guess , we we basically vetoed that idea . it 's it 's pointless . project manager: mm . user interface: uh it 's just a sample sensor sample output . it would just be probably the most expensive part of our remote without any actual interesting functionality as far as operating the tv . uh so yeah , they they also give the uh they they suggested the idea of using a spinning wheel like you use on the side of an m_p_ three player like ipod . project manager: mm . marketing: mm . user interface: um so we 've already addressed that and i think that would actually be worse for something like r_s_i_ i mean you got that thumb movement that you 're constantly doing . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: um the other suggestion , marketing: that does get annoying . user interface: and i i have a feeling that we 're interested in in something more general , but they suggested uh , you know , going i a little bit into a a niche , like either gearing our remote towards kids , where you could have lot of colours um , the keys might be you know , funny or or , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: or uh something for the elderly , where the remote 's very large and the buttons are very large and there 's only a few buttons . but you know we can we can discuss this , but it sounded like from our last meeting we really wanted something that was general , but done well . project manager: yeah . user interface: uh um so , the key layout and design are really crucial . you do n't want uh you want people to be able to quickly access the buttons that they use a lot without uh always pressing the wrong one um . and i did n't mention that we need a power button in our last i can give you an example here of uh , good layout and bad layout industrial designer: user interface: uh from our manufacturing department . so this would be an example of bad layout , where you have volume up and volume down , but they have a v_ on both of them , so uh project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: it 's sort of confusing for the user . uh this is the example of the giant remote that 's impossible to lose . project manager: do we have an uh example of a good one ? brilliant . industrial designer: marketing: uh-huh . well user interface: and for something for kids . yeah . um . project manager: yeah . user interface: and so , yeah , i th i think my personal preferences of we 've all kind of talked about and seemed to be on the same page um . uh so i was against the speech recognition and against going uh towards anything in in a niche sense . i think it should be more general . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: i did n't i did n't think the spinning-wheel or the uh l_c_ display were were crucial for us . and , yeah , that 's it for me . project manager: okay . well let 's um so w what are our definite decisions on this then as a team ? the um the the um the interface type we 're going for user interface: so we 're we 're not gon na have any sort of display i think uh . project manager: just the simple s simple straight set of buttons . user interface: so , yeah , it 's just gon na be just gon na be push-buttons . um . i think we shall have a limited number of buttons , project manager: yeah . user interface: ideally , i mean a a power , channel up , channel down , volume up , volume down , and a numerical keypad . project manager: yeah . user interface: uh . and some sort of it will either have a a lock button like we mentioned or or a cover or something like that . project manager: yeah . user interface: i guess it 's to the point where we need to decide about that . project manager: okay , and we 're not yeah . user interface: well now that we 've decided on our project manager: are we gon na hav hav an are we d marketing: project manager: have we decided on whether w we 're gon na s supplement it with anything , you know , colours or particular gimmicky bits to it , we 're not we 're just gon na go for something user interface: um it seems like we would n't wan na make it too busy and too sort of gaudy , project manager: we 're marketing: maybe we can user interface: but um yeah , i would say mayb maybe a couple of colours like uh like a black with with yellow and somewhere , like maybe the r_r_ can be yellow , or something like that . project manager: yeah . yeah . okay . okey-dokey . yeah , i do n't have any other questions on this . let 's move over to user interface: i i guess the fact uh also that we are having a rubber case uh would prevent us from having the cover function that we thought of before . project manager: yeah , sure . user interface: i mean , 'cause uh s so if we wan na have a lock of some sort it would have to be a button . project manager: . user interface: but i think that should be i mean um , i can speak with the button department , but uh i think that it should be easy to have a button that just prevents prevents the other uh the other buttons from operating . project manager: yeah , the button that just does that , yeah . user interface: so that should be simple . project manager: cool . marketing: right . well , i 'm just basically letting you know what 's happening in the markets project manager: mm yeah . marketing: and what the fashions are for next year . um . so yes , so from looking at this year 's trends and fashions project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and also recent investigation that we 've done in the remote control market , we have found that for the remote control market these are like most important aspects like that we really need to project manager: marketing: which we 've already probably discussed . um the most important aspect is look and feel . so the remote control has to look and feel fancier than the ones that already that we already have . so it has to be project manager: yeah , why should people buy this when they 're already got a remote that came with the tv ? marketing: yep . user interface: mm . marketing: exactly . user interface: yeah . marketing: um second , uh it should be technologically innovative innovative . so project manager: what 's that mean ? marketing: technologically it should be like um work , basically , i guess . it should work . user interface: well it should be it should be maybe cutting edge in some sense , marketing: should user interface: i mean have something that 's little more technologically advanced than what 's on the market . marketing: that 's new . project manager: okay , now the trouble is is we 've already decided that we 're going with the stuff that works already , that 's cheap . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . actually , i mean , these first two points we 've already sort of gone away from , marketing: yeah . user interface: 'cause our rubber one is not fancy project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: i mean it 's different , but i would n't say like a rubber remote is fancy . if that 's what people want then we maybe we 're going in the wrong direction . and it 's it 's not technologically innovative either . project manager: maybe we could um marketing: so , no loose user interface: mm . marketing: that 's why i was thinking , bluetooth , 'cause if you like put up bluetooth , and it 's like a bluetooth remote control , everybody 's gon na like , oh , 'cause bluetooth is the in thing nowadays , like it really is , like people and um when it comes to marketing like that 's what people go for , they do n't really care whether , you know , at the end of the day whether it works properly or not . project manager: of course , they do . marketing: well , they do , but it 's like it 's not project manager: one hundred per cent , that 's your first thing , you go , oh i 'm not gon na buy that , 'cause i dunno if it works or not . marketing: yeah , but it looks good . if it looks good and it 's it can just be there for decoration . project manager: okay , well , what do you two think about this ? user interface: so is is the advantage of bluetooth that you can just like synchronise it with other marketing: but like project manager: yeah , what i do n't understand what m user interface: electronics ? marketing: you could always insert , yeah . user interface: yeah , that 's basically what it allows you to do , project manager: yeah , user interface: right ? project manager: and it this is just gon na all this is being used for is your television . marketing: yeah , but , i mean , people like project manager: it would that would mean you 'd need a television that has bluetooth in it , which no no television does , marketing: well , if you 're looking at if you looking at something that 's going to be bought by people , you have to make it new , you have to make it state of the art . industrial designer: well project manager: does it ? that would mean we 'd have to make a television as well . industrial designer: bluetooth would , for example , enable you , i think , to um um connect for example you if you get a w call on your mobile phone , but your mobile phone is downstairs or something , you would get on your television you 're being called by this person right now . things like that . project manager: no , that would be your telephone in with your television . industrial designer: no i user interface: yeah , the that would n't be the remote so much , project manager: yeah , user interface: i mean project manager: and i industrial designer: no , but if you get bluetooth on the remote , you 'd be able to project manager: nah , the televi the television would have to be a bluetooth compatible , basically . industrial designer: i with the television , yeah . i was just trying to find an advantage . wha what w what advantage would you get for the user interface: mm . marketing: well , it does n't project manager: an and there is no there is no such thing marketing: like it does n't have to be , you know , bluetooth , that was just an idea , but like it needs do something that , you know , is new . whether it 's a battery it could be something really really minor , you know , like but i think we are really keeping to what is already out there , and people 've already seen it , people 've already got it . project manager: okay . marketing: if we want something new , we need to move away from what we already have and um just go creative . industrial designer: maybe the kinetic mo provision of energy then . it 's been done for watches , but i have n't seen that for remotes , yet . project manager: okay . yeah , this that 's that 's very good . marketing: and then you can market it . never have to change a battery again . industrial designer: change the batteries ever again . project manager: and and this is all tying in very nicely . marketing: project manager: the fact that it 's made out of this rubber , we can throw it about . th we should encourage people to throw their remote controls about , because it charges itself up by doing it . industrial designer: yeah , well , and in little characters you say , yeah , but not too much . user interface: yes , so can project manager: but yeah , by the squeezing it the marketing: i think , safety s user interface: yeah , we can make the squeezing of the rubber be the be the generating like the energy generator . project manager: yeah , that 's a great idea . well done . marketing: yeah . third most important aspect uh is it 's easy to use . user interface: we 're all about that . marketing: and i think we 've all um worked that out . um okay , in the fashion , how it 's supposed to look . next year 's fashion i very much in fruit and vegetables are thm are like the theme for cloths , shoes and furniture . so next year people will be buying , i found this really funny , you know , strawberry shaped chairs , industrial designer: user interface: okay , so we could have keys that are like a b like a broccoli key and a uh and an avocado key on them . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: i wan na watch the pineapple channel . marketing: rubber things . um and as it 's rubber the feel which is in this year is spongy , so it 's it 's not quite spongy , but spongy , i would say is user interface: . project manager: well spongy , that 's where . yeah , we 're we 're ahead of the game there . user interface: yeah , that 's great for us . marketing: yeah , so we 're in . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . and so personal what i was just saying like move away from the current remote controls uh like the look and the feel of the current ones and change the look and feel , while still keeping to the company 's image , basically . so yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: . i had to say user interface: right . marketing: so we 're moving in the right direction like project manager: alright , yeah , no , this i this is good , user interface: yeah . project manager: so through all that we 've we go we 're right , we 're gon na go go back to um going with the kinetic thing , industrial designer: yep . user interface: yeah , that 's great . project manager: that 's great , using the spongy rubber that we were talking about that anti-r_s_i_ you can as you squeeze it you are not only therapeuticising yourself , you are charging the batteries , marketing: mm . project manager: and um i 'm not sure about the buttons being in the shape of fruit though . industrial designer: no vegetables . marketing: user interface: yeah , i do n't know how we incorporate project manager: . marketing: user interface: we do n't have to follow every trend , i guess . marketing: maybe make it like fruity colours or something . user interface: uh-huh . marketing: some sort . or user interface: the power button could be like a big apple or something . marketing: mm . industrial designer: well yeah , but apple would sue you for that . marketing: project manager: yeah , this is true . user interface: they don they do n't own all images of apples . project manager: industrial designer: sued the beatles so user interface: okay , we 'll make it a uh pomegranate , a big pomegranate . industrial designer: project manager: well , okay , it seems like the only thing that we have n't really finally um agreed on is its image . like , yeah , we 're we 're saying no we do n't want it to be fruit and vegetables , but we dunno what it should be , user interface: . project manager: or like are we going yeah it looks slick , but what do what do we mean by slick sort of thing ? marketing: well i think , if it 's rubber it needs to be project manager: i mean you said earlier on i it should be funky . marketing: different . i think , it 's it should be i mean , what do you associate with rubber ? you know like project manager: l keep it clean , keep it clean . marketing: really different colours basically . industrial designer: marketing: okay , sor i sorry , i used the wrong word , what do you associate with the mate the material that material ? um industrial designer: marketing: um like i 'm just thinking bright colours . user interface: yeah . marketing: bright natural colours , nothing too project manager: bright , but not too bright . marketing: bright , but too not yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: like no lime green or bright yellow or bright pink . wan na make it different colours so anybody can choo like like project manager: like the volume buttons should be the all the same colour and the d and the the channel buttons should be one colour and stuff like that , do you mean ? user interface: mm . marketing: yeah . and on the back of it have the logo . project manager: okay , what ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: sure . industrial designer: why not ? project manager: okay . tha user interface: the one thing i 'm wondering about , i hope that we 're not going like too much down a gimmicky road of of having project manager: yeah , i mean we that 's we we user interface: i mean if somebody go goes into the store they 're gon na see like three or four normal remotes , and then a big spongy pink t tomato uh remote . marketing: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: this is the remote control tomato . user interface: i mean what are ninety per cent of people gon na take ? marketing: well i can say in this country , you 'll get , you know , lots of people wanting something really funky and cool . like and kids will be walking in with their parents saying , mummy i wan na buy that one . project manager: marketing: and uh parents will see the will see the pro as well , because it 's um like kids wo n't break it , it 's not breakable if you throw it around . project manager: yeah . marketing: especially with younger kids , you know they can pick it up and and yeah . the only thing is is that really small kids might chew on it , but project manager: well , it 's it 's got ta be chew proof . user interface: marketing: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: i 'm gon na write that down . marketing: so user interface: marketing: so it 's rea it 's quite project manager: marketing: it 's quite like um user friendly industrial designer: marketing: and also for different families , like like family use as well , so for little kids and for old ki like teenagers will like it , i think . especially maybe younger girls if it 's in pink they 'll be like pink remote control for their room something . project manager: so , what are you saying , maybe we should market it in different colours for different marketing: yeah . project manager: so we could do like the pink range , the blue range , the green range , the industrial designer: that 's yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: so like you walk in , you 're like , oh i like that remote control , because it 's so bright , and then , and then the shop assistant comes up and says , oh what colour would you like ? and then they go like , oh i can choose the colour wow . so it puts , i think , even the customer into more control over what they 're buying instead of , you 've got all colour it 's either that or nothing . so they also get to pick . well , personally i like walking into a shop and choosing a colour . user interface: yeah i mean , that that seems to work well with for products like ipod , marketing: it 's um user interface: where , you know , you have a variety of colours , that people feel like they 're customising it when they buy it , even , you know , just just by the fact of choosing . project manager: mm . marketing: yeah . mm . industrial designer: although i 'd be curious to see how many uh marketing: d you 've got the industrial designer: you know , there are some colours that i wouldn i would never choose , and i would be curious how many people choose that colour . project manager: well that 's that can be down to bit of market researching you know , user interface: right . project manager: if that 's easy enough to find out what colours are more popular . industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and produce less of the silly colours , maybe . project manager: mm . industrial designer: project manager: okay . alright . well um , we 'll alright let 's what we 're gon na aim to get together by the next meeting then um is from you catherine wi your y y you know you 're gon na be working on the the look and feel design . industrial designer: yep . project manager: um gabriel , you 're gon na be working on , you know come up with the the user interface design . then basically , you two are gon na be working together on this . you wo n't be going off to your separate offices . industrial designer: alright . user interface: okay . project manager: um and i think you are gon na get a chance to play with some clay . user interface: oh right . project manager: i think , yeah , it 's gon na you know , industrial designer: mm . project manager: come up ki you know , be ab for the next meeting be able to come in and show us some some i some physical ideas . 'cause at the moment , uh you know , it 's it 's hard . industrial designer: cool . project manager: we were kinda going , yeah , it 's got ta feel nice , it 's got ta look cool and that it 's industrial designer: it is . user interface: yeah . project manager: you know now we can actually start , you know , s some sort of physical something or other . user interface: that sounds good . project manager: um and you 're gon na be working on the product evaluation . marketing: evaluation . project manager: um . and i will be uh industrial designer: marketing: project manager: talking to the bosses , basically , and uh marketing: project manager: f fielding off some more spam and uh industrial designer: great . project manager: that 's it really . keeping things t well , uh you know , ho hopefully uh keeping things together . um . yeah , that 's this is this is uh good . so we know for definite we know we 've we 've now got some definite things going on . we definitely know how it 's powered , user interface: mm . project manager: we definitely know that um it 's gon na be a simple buttons , we 're not gon na be going for the new technological chip on print expensive things , so we 've we 're keeping the costs down . it 's this rubber casing that we can sell as um fun and funky . do n't know of any other remote controls that are made out of this stuff . marketing: mm . project manager: people , you know , people are saying , oh , standard stuff gives you repetitive strain injury , well this remote control is designed to do the complete opposite , marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's supposed to fix it rather than cause it . um . you know , we 're gon na we we 're gon na as a sort of extra something on it , you know what what extra things are there extra things this product have ? we 'll look into this lock key user interface: right . project manager: facility , although whether or not it happens , or is possible , i do n't know , but something to look into . okay . i think that 's um well done everybody . anyone have any uh any questions , user interface: alright . project manager: everyone know what they 're doing ? 'cause if you do n't , you 'll i 'm sure you 'll soon get an e-mail about it . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . marketing: user interface: mm , i think we all know what we need to do now . marketing: s this gives you all the details ? project manager: okay . right well . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's um we 're we 've still couple of minutes until our meeting 's due to finish . but um i got a note saying that you two who are gon na be working together marketing: project manager: so bef before you all disappear off just user interface: okay , i 'll stay in here . marketing: um . user interface: project manager: hold hold fire . um . user interface: does the pay-raise immediately come into effect on our next pay-check , or is that project manager: um i think , it 's uh , yeah , i think , it 's gon na be par part more of a profit sharing on the product . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: so we 're buying fut i mean , we 're getting futures in the company . project manager: yeah , i think i i think that 's i think that 's the way it 's gon na happen at the moment . user interface: so we really have a incentive to make this remote work . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: i 'd like to share in the coffee machine profits , because that 's really doing well . project manager: i want a share in the space rocket . did you see that this k that this company we 've made a spaceship . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . . marketing: yeah . user interface: this company has its its fingers in a lot of different pots . marketing: project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: yeah , we 're definitely not in the money making department . marketing: project manager: . user interface: well i i did notice looking at i mean , they told you that they wanted whatev our product to represent the the r_r_ brand and and to be immediately noticeable . project manager: yeah . user interface: i mean , if you look like at the coffee maker at the at the corporate web page , it 's not obvious . marketing: mm . user interface: r_r_ . well it is to us , because we we worked worked here for years and we use that coffee machine , but it 's does n't have the colour scheme of of the of the company anywhere on it obviously it 's just sil silver and black . project manager: mm . industrial designer: that 's true . project manager: and the spaceship does n't have the r_ have a massive r_ and r_ down the side of it user interface: no . industrial designer: does n't project manager: but i still want one . user interface: mm . project manager: okay . um i 've just had a sign flashing up saying , finish the meeting . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh . user interface: okay . project manager: yeah . user interface: right , well , i guess that 's us . project manager: yeah . it 's not telling it 's not saying do anything in particular just yet . so maybe you should go back to your own offices . user interface: okay . right . industrial designer: are we taking these off ? project manager: yeah . yeah , it says you two { disfmarker }

marketing thought that bluetooth is a fancy function that may attract customers . however , project manager reckoned that the bluetooth function means that users need a television that has bluetooth function . televisions rarely have this function . marketing thought that it would be a new trend and they need to move away from what they already had and go creative . but after all the proposal of bluetooth was suspended .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: so we come again for the the second meeting . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: uh for the aim of this meeting now is to to make presentation about uh the work for each one . user interface: project manager: and take the the decision about the the design and the functionality of the the remote control . user interface: okay . project manager: and we have think i got a new project requirement . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so i think uh teletext becomes outdated . so the popularity of the since the popularity of the internet , industrial designer: okay . project manager: and i think we do n't need lighting adaptive , so the remote control should be only used for the the television . and of course we should have our image in the in the design . so , let 's start with the the industrial designer . user interface: project manager: . user interface: industrial designer: yeah , alright . project manager: or y you can use the whiteboard if you want . industrial designer: so uh well i have a powerpoint pr presentation stored in my in my personal folder project manager: here . industrial designer: so i i i think you can reach it from here . marketing: just go to explorer . project manager: oh okay . marketing: or open . participant two . industrial designer: participant two . project manager: this one . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: open uh . industrial designer: uh open . project manager: do you want to open user interface: because it 's open you mean . project manager: industrial designer: right , so um i will talk about the the w working design and user interface: f_ five . marketing: slide show , view slide show , . project manager: ah . industrial designer: and um well i i will present my my first idea on how to build the our new remote control for television . user interface: industrial designer: so uh can you go one page down , please . so i think the first things to do is to define the hardware components neededs to achieve uh what we want to do . user interface: industrial designer: so uh mm i 'm thin uh i think uh i i 'll do a survey about what is uh what is available on the market and what what is the the cheapest possible things we hav we can use . then uh i will try with the technical team to to build a prototype and to see uh with uh h how this little box would uh look look like . user interface: industrial designer: and how an and we can uh start troubleshooting first uh com communication problems or things like that . user interface: industrial designer: and when we are ready with this first prototype i i think we can add some software functionalities on a programmable chip like browsing by content or um things like that . okay so can you go down uh so , wha what i think for now is we do n't want to have a remote control w which is wired user interface: project manager: industrial designer: so uh i think we u we can use a battery for the . then two programmable chips for both software functionalities and communication . and the communication with the tv set is uh made through uh infrared communication so uh this is the the schema of the o of the future uh remote controls user interface: did you draw it ? marketing: project manager: wow . industrial designer: so uh you can you can see the components , uh battery and uh the two chips goes to the infrared uh connection to the tv set . user interface: this . project manager: this user interface: what is the other chip for ? the one on top . industrial designer: the one on top is for the um well the functionali the functionalities user interface: marketing: one is a communication . industrial designer: and the the th red um sorry the green one is is to well , putting things together , um f transform the data into uh qu into the format to to uh to communicate with the tv set . user interface: for men . to the in okay . industrial designer: and , that 's it . i think we should use a f_p_g_a_ for for the functionalities which is easy to to t user interface: mm . what is f_p_g_a_ ? industrial designer: it 's field programmable uh something array . marketing: gateway arrays . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it 's a field programmable gateway arrays . user interface: so why 's it how is it different from the bluetooth ? industrial designer: well , uh a f_p_g_a_ is just a chip you can uh you can pr programme it uh wi with wh whatever you want . user interface: yeah . programme it . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . industrial designer: and uh well the bluetooth chip is just responsible to uh make the communication uh between uh the two devices . user interface: yeah . uh so this are the they have to work together ? or ? do they have to work together or two separate choice industrial designer: no . well , th the f_p_g_a_ will produce the the data to send . user interface: okay . marketing: or it 's something like is n't hardware the first one ? and the second one is for the software . user interface: is the is the software par alri okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah to run th to make it run . user interface: okay , okay . marketing: that 's it . user interface: so you can control if you want , right ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: no . industrial designer: alright and that 's it for the working design . user interface: industrial designer: so if you have any questions ? user interface: mm . marketing: okay , and how about the battery power ? uh you mean that battery would be somewhere there and the remote contro the power to the battery comes through infrared ? industrial designer: uh no no no no , i think uh we have uh to to uh have uh embedded uh b batteries in in the project manager: . marketing: into the industrial designer: yeah into the t . marketing: more compact and uh okay , industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: industrial designer: and uh i i do n't think it will need um very uh much power to make it run , so user interface: mm . mm . marketing: yeah , yeah . okay . user interface: mm . you can put it on the charger when uh you when you do n't need to use it . industrial designer: yeah . it 's a good idea . marketing: yeah , that 's right . user interface: yeah . marketing: having a charger rather than putting the battery cells always . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: people do n't like it to have to buy the batteries when they run out . user interface: yeah . mm . uh mm . marketing: we just make a small charger user interface: y yeah , yeah . marketing: and put it project manager: you can i yeah . user interface: because you are using because you are using bluetooth , if some people have p_d_a_ they can use their p_d_a_ to control the tv if they want to , right ? industrial designer: that 's a good idea . marketing: project manager: ma industrial designer: also , but but i i i think uh the the goal is to sell our remote control . project manager: user interface: i dunno . marketing: bu project manager: yeah we can change the b . marketing: our remote , project manager: yeah . marketing: we do not want to make it p_d_a_ . user interface: industrial designer: s okay , so charger for is the . project manager: um . user interface: so is mine . project manager: it 's mine . participant one , no ? user interface: oh . yeah , this your project manager: mm . oh we have so let 's move to to user interface design . user interface: yeah . so you can open uh project manager: participant user interface: three . yeah . so so i 'm working on the technical functions design . can you show the next slide . so the the purpose is to to find uh the important questions to ask is what effect should the apparatus have . so so i found on a webs on the internet project manager: during the weekend . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . i spent a lot of time searching industrial designer: project manager: that 's good . user interface: and uh and i found that uh the function of remote control is to send messages to television set . industrial designer: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: for example switch on , switch off , switch the next channel and so on and so on . marketing: g user interface: so i found two very good prototypes for for this interface from our competitors industrial designer: user interface: so can you industrial designer: project manager: this are usual functionality . user interface: yeah , yeah , yeah . ours is a bit uh different . so these are two example . one is from the other one is from , yeah , uh engineering centr yeah . project manager: tasks . industrial designer: user interface: this is the most competing prototypes i 've found . industrial designer: user interface: but then uh loo but then i found if you look at you see on the left one there are too many buttons industrial designer: project manager: and they are small . user interface: yeah . o on the right i tried to play with the problem is that uh if i have hundred channels i have uh i have to choo press the other button to choose the hundred channels and i have to compose the number industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so it 's very lousy . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so you so you move to the next the next one . industrial designer: of course . user interface: yeah , so i talk about the problem . and then i i look at the user manual they are a hundred pages thick , so we do n't want that . project manager: yeah . user interface: so i propose the easy to use uh prototype . you can navigate on tv screen and we can the user 's preference and we need to have the tv connected to internet so we end in order to access the tv programmes by x_m_l_ and we need some to do some preprocessing . from the technical aspect , the processing should be done on the tv set than on the on the remote controller , right ? industrial designer: user interface: and then we the speech recognition as uh harry says we may just put in we may k_i_v_ . project manager: what do you mean by the pa pa processing will be done on the tv user interface: yeah , all the processing is done the tv is a compu has some processing power the project manager: than the industrial designer: so we have to t project manager: so we should have specific tv ? or ? we can use this . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we have to sell a tv with the remote control too . project manager: yeah , we do n't marketing: user interface: yeah because are you just wondering what controller okay . project manager: yeah , i think so . j j just the remote control . marketing: yeah , not the tvs . industrial designer: i think there there is there is al there there is a a technology like show view who is already available on most of the tv set on recorders or thing like that user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and we can try t to get this information on to the remote control to to do the processing on the remote control because user interface: okay . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . okay . marketing: yeah , that 's right . project manager: mm . user interface: so i the processing on on the remote controller project manager: yeah , user interface: so it can u be used in any tv , any conventional tv sets ? project manager: we . yeah . user interface: mm . okay . project manager: speech recognition . user interface: n yeah , that 's all . the next one ? so i come up with a simple design , just keep the v navigation buttons . industrial designer: yes , that 's a good idea , i think . project manager: keep the navigation industrial designer: we d we do n't we we do n't need really much buttons to i if we have a screen to navigate on on the tv so uh project manager: but user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: well , f four five buttons , it 's sufficient . user interface: yeah . mm . industrial designer: it 's easy to build , user interface: industrial designer: it does not consume much power . marketing: yeah , that 's right . project manager: . user interface: okay , that 's all . marketing: oh , but you have a catch there , um assume that um if you want to go to if you are watching channel two and if you want to go to channel ninety nine , then . user interface: industrial designer: well , then y you you go to the main menu and uh you have uh go to channel user interface: mm . industrial designer: and then uh you can user interface: mm . no , because you choose by channel , so you choose by tv program industrial designer: yeah . marketing: uh-huh huh huh huh . industrial designer: maybe you user interface: so you do n't have hundred channels to choose from . if you go by channel , you do n't have to do that . industrial designer: . marketing: mm-hmm hmm hmm . industrial designer: but uh i i think i i if you if you want to to make uh well a a big jump but uh well you you have to to have a a a device when you could you could marketing: but project manager: so you are user interface: ah . ah , a big jump . marketing: yeah then yeah that 's right . user interface: a mouse or industrial designer: well , not a mouse but uh something that that says more clearly that uh right , left , up , down , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: well , the to have the ability to to to write something to the navigator , maybe directly , or marketing: mm hmm hmm . okay . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so , marketing: okay . user interface: mm . industrial designer: we can think of buttons like in the telephone to send messages or things like that . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: how the this remote ? industrial designer: but we 'll see . user interface: uh it 's gon na be small . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , of course small . user interface: yeah . so it 'll beep if you wan na find it marketing: too small that it goes under the sofa and we ca n't find it . project manager: user interface: you just uh shout y h just it just has to re respond to you when you look for the device . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: marketing: that 's . user interface: i dunno how bu marketing: just give it a name and we call him . user interface: and responds to you , and industrial designer: marketing: yeah , that 's right . yeah , that 's right . industrial designer: okay , so uh next presentation user interface: project manager: participant four . so harry . marketing: okay , after having the inputs from industrial design and user interface , i think most of the points which i want to are already covered here . industrial designer: mm . user interface: marketing: and to find the most interesting features what the users would be interested , then what we have done is we have put a feedback forms in all the magazines , and the users send the feedbacks , and based on that these are the findings which we got and yeah adding of a speech interface is always good for a tv remote but the technology we already know that as discussed earlier industrial designer: well i i think it will be a , yes , a bit complicated to um make a speech recognisers runs on the small uh ts user interface: project manager: marketing: an it does how feasible it is . user interface: i- mm . but i think if you to recognise numbers it 's a well-studied problem . i if you just recognise uh numbers is a limited you have limited vocabulary marketing: oh we can put an limited vocabulary as in the mobile phones . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we just have the user interface: mm . industrial designer: and this can allow to choose the the program , for instance without uh adding uh buttons user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so it 's a good idea . marketing: it 's not going to take much space also . it 's going to be very slim . user interface: mm . mm . marketing: and next one was the size of the remote control . it has to be of course a very slim and small one . and of course most of the people are interested in if it 's less expensive , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm . marketing: so this is an important criteria here is user interface: but project manager: but do you think what they sug suggested s possibility . user interface: mm . marketing: i mean we have to look for a trade-off . user interface: yeah . marketing: the features and the cost . user interface: i no i i think that uh i if we go for quality people may tolerate for high quality and of course comes with uh reasonable cost . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . marketing: user interface: maybe not less , but they may be willing to pay little bit more for comfort , marketing: little bit more if it 's with extra features . project manager: it industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , extra features . industrial designer: yeah , s s speech is a important extra feature i think marketing: okay . user interface: mm . yeah . marketing: yeah , yeah . that 's right . project manager: but is it useful or not u i do n't know . industrial designer: well , uh project manager: there is in the marketing: i mean , for a lazy guys they could say nine and the nine channel comes . user interface: mm . industrial designer: marketing: or they say movie name or i do n't go for movie names but only for the numbers on the channel , or volume up , volume down , brightness , contrast . user interface: mm . project manager: mm . user interface: mm . marketing: so , i think this should be a good idea , to put this features . and the fourth one was the teletext in various languages . industrial designer: we we just have to find a mean how to to add a m a a a microphone or uh well yes a microphone into the the remote control , so marketing: mm , i think user interface: industrial designer: i well project manager: i think i industrial designer: it will be alright . marketing: project manager: if it 's necessary can you can do that . user interface: what is the teletext ? mm . project manager: we can integrate small microphone in the remote industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so it 's not really a problem . industrial designer: okay . project manager: what about lighting adaptive options ? marketing: yeah as discussed in the earlier meeting , but i think uh not much people are really interested in this point if it 's not really required . project manager: according to the re to the new requirements i think we do n't need that . yeah . user interface: it is interesting but we are only concerned with the remote controller . project manager: mm . user interface: so you need s special tv sets to do that ? or it 's it 's done via this remote controller ? it 's very complex . marketing: i mean industrial designer: yeah , i think it 's a bit complex too user interface: marketing: i mean yeah , it 's for the um industrial design and users interface designers to decide if it 's going to be working or not . user interface: mm . industrial designer: for our next product , our new tv set with uh automatical uh sound adjustment light marketing: i think project manager: user interface: yeah , then we can conclude that . yeah . yeah , but it 's quite possible but maybe not in this project . project manager: so we have i think we have s still we have couple of minutes . mm-mm . so any things to to discuss ? or any suggestions ? user interface: marketing: i think as i discussed th that four points would be good for um marketing . user interface: marketing: the speech interface and uh less uh reasonable uh cost . project manager: expensive . price . user interface: mm . marketing: and the lighting adaptation user interface: mm . marketing: and the teletext . and regarding the teletext uh these are the subtitl these are the text information which you got on the televisions . user interface: okay . marketing: if you are watching an foreign movie , you get subtitles sometimes . user interface: yeah . okay . marketing: and uh if you are a french guy watching an english movie you would like to have it in french . user interface: mm . industrial designer: . marketing: and if i am a german then i would like to have the my options in german . industrial designer: marketing: so , the remote it should have some it should give me some flexibility of choosing the ch languages . industrial designer: function . marketing: that should be a good uh point . industrial designer: yeah , but well what about the the new project 's requirement ? i i i think we should give up with teletext , no ? project manager: i think we we can we is the . industrial designer: yes . well , so maybe we we can j we can already think uh about a way to to access the internet via the television . user interface: mm . industrial designer: because if user interface: using the tv to access the internet ? or what ? i did n't quite understand industrial designer: yeah , but uh we can think that in a few years there will be tv set that can access the internet . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , okay . industrial designer: so it 's a good idea if i i if we i if if we uh think about how to to to build up our remote uh control w with this functionality in a w which will c which will come in a few years . marketing: we already have some . industrial designer: so if we already have it in our remote control project manager: so you have to anticipate the the future ? industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . the future demand , market demand . industrial designer: yeah , to desi marketing: yeah , that 's right . industrial designer: well , not not to implement it , but to well , to find a way to to add to add this functionality in a yeah , in an in an easy manner , if is possible . project manager: . user interface: the functionality in the future . project manager: in future . user interface: alright . yeah . because all the tv sets will be digital , right . all the programmes , everything will be in digital than analog . th the system will change and we have to anticipate for those change . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah , . industrial designer: okay . so project manager: okay . so let 's go for the the lunch break , and we will meet after . industrial designer: okay , thank you . user interface: okay . thank you . marketing: okay , thank you .

in the discussion , team members did presentations and talked about the design of the remote control . project manager introduced the aim of the second meeting and new project requirement . project manager said that the team did not need to pay attention to teletext and lighting adaptive . then industrial designer , user interface and marketing gave presentations respectively . industrial designer proposed that they could add software functionalities on programmable chips and could use the fpga . user interface focused on reducing the number of buttons and recommended navigation buttons . marketing discussed a lot of ideas including using a speech recogniser , the size of the remote control and lighting adaptive options . in the end they discussed some topics like teletext and accessing the internet .

what was the decision of the discussion about industrial working design ? </s> project manager: so we come again for the the second meeting . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: uh for the aim of this meeting now is to to make presentation about uh the work for each one . user interface: project manager: and take the the decision about the the design and the functionality of the the remote control . user interface: okay . project manager: and we have think i got a new project requirement . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so i think uh teletext becomes outdated . so the popularity of the since the popularity of the internet , industrial designer: okay . project manager: and i think we do n't need lighting adaptive , so the remote control should be only used for the the television . and of course we should have our image in the in the design . so , let 's start with the the industrial designer . user interface: project manager: . user interface: industrial designer: yeah , alright . project manager: or y you can use the whiteboard if you want . industrial designer: so uh well i have a powerpoint pr presentation stored in my in my personal folder project manager: here . industrial designer: so i i i think you can reach it from here . marketing: just go to explorer . project manager: oh okay . marketing: or open . participant two . industrial designer: participant two . project manager: this one . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: open uh . industrial designer: uh open . project manager: do you want to open user interface: because it 's open you mean . project manager: industrial designer: right , so um i will talk about the the w working design and user interface: f_ five . marketing: slide show , view slide show , . project manager: ah . industrial designer: and um well i i will present my my first idea on how to build the our new remote control for television . user interface: industrial designer: so uh can you go one page down , please . so i think the first things to do is to define the hardware components neededs to achieve uh what we want to do . user interface: industrial designer: so uh mm i 'm thin uh i think uh i i 'll do a survey about what is uh what is available on the market and what what is the the cheapest possible things we hav we can use . then uh i will try with the technical team to to build a prototype and to see uh with uh h how this little box would uh look look like . user interface: industrial designer: and how an and we can uh start troubleshooting first uh com communication problems or things like that . user interface: industrial designer: and when we are ready with this first prototype i i think we can add some software functionalities on a programmable chip like browsing by content or um things like that . okay so can you go down uh so , wha what i think for now is we do n't want to have a remote control w which is wired user interface: project manager: industrial designer: so uh i think we u we can use a battery for the . then two programmable chips for both software functionalities and communication . and the communication with the tv set is uh made through uh infrared communication so uh this is the the schema of the o of the future uh remote controls user interface: did you draw it ? marketing: project manager: wow . industrial designer: so uh you can you can see the components , uh battery and uh the two chips goes to the infrared uh connection to the tv set . user interface: this . project manager: this user interface: what is the other chip for ? the one on top . industrial designer: the one on top is for the um well the functionali the functionalities user interface: marketing: one is a communication . industrial designer: and the the th red um sorry the green one is is to well , putting things together , um f transform the data into uh qu into the format to to uh to communicate with the tv set . user interface: for men . to the in okay . industrial designer: and , that 's it . i think we should use a f_p_g_a_ for for the functionalities which is easy to to t user interface: mm . what is f_p_g_a_ ? industrial designer: it 's field programmable uh something array . marketing: gateway arrays . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it 's a field programmable gateway arrays . user interface: so why 's it how is it different from the bluetooth ? industrial designer: well , uh a f_p_g_a_ is just a chip you can uh you can pr programme it uh wi with wh whatever you want . user interface: yeah . programme it . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . industrial designer: and uh well the bluetooth chip is just responsible to uh make the communication uh between uh the two devices . user interface: yeah . uh so this are the they have to work together ? or ? do they have to work together or two separate choice industrial designer: no . well , th the f_p_g_a_ will produce the the data to send . user interface: okay . marketing: or it 's something like is n't hardware the first one ? and the second one is for the software . user interface: is the is the software par alri okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah to run th to make it run . user interface: okay , okay . marketing: that 's it . user interface: so you can control if you want , right ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: no . industrial designer: alright and that 's it for the working design . user interface: industrial designer: so if you have any questions ? user interface: mm . marketing: okay , and how about the battery power ? uh you mean that battery would be somewhere there and the remote contro the power to the battery comes through infrared ? industrial designer: uh no no no no , i think uh we have uh to to uh have uh embedded uh b batteries in in the project manager: . marketing: into the industrial designer: yeah into the t . marketing: more compact and uh okay , industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: industrial designer: and uh i i do n't think it will need um very uh much power to make it run , so user interface: mm . mm . marketing: yeah , yeah . okay . user interface: mm . you can put it on the charger when uh you when you do n't need to use it . industrial designer: yeah . it 's a good idea . marketing: yeah , that 's right . user interface: yeah . marketing: having a charger rather than putting the battery cells always . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: people do n't like it to have to buy the batteries when they run out . user interface: yeah . mm . uh mm . marketing: we just make a small charger user interface: y yeah , yeah . marketing: and put it project manager: you can i yeah . user interface: because you are using because you are using bluetooth , if some people have p_d_a_ they can use their p_d_a_ to control the tv if they want to , right ? industrial designer: that 's a good idea . marketing: project manager: ma industrial designer: also , but but i i i think uh the the goal is to sell our remote control . project manager: user interface: i dunno . marketing: bu project manager: yeah we can change the b . marketing: our remote , project manager: yeah . marketing: we do not want to make it p_d_a_ . user interface: industrial designer: s okay , so charger for is the . project manager: um . user interface: so is mine . project manager: it 's mine . participant one , no ? user interface: oh . yeah , this your project manager: mm . oh we have so let 's move to to user interface design . user interface: yeah . so you can open uh project manager: participant user interface: three . yeah . so so i 'm working on the technical functions design . can you show the next slide . so the the purpose is to to find uh the important questions to ask is what effect should the apparatus have . so so i found on a webs on the internet project manager: during the weekend . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . i spent a lot of time searching industrial designer: project manager: that 's good . user interface: and uh and i found that uh the function of remote control is to send messages to television set . industrial designer: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: for example switch on , switch off , switch the next channel and so on and so on . marketing: g user interface: so i found two very good prototypes for for this interface from our competitors industrial designer: user interface: so can you industrial designer: project manager: this are usual functionality . user interface: yeah , yeah , yeah . ours is a bit uh different . so these are two example . one is from the other one is from , yeah , uh engineering centr yeah . project manager: tasks . industrial designer: user interface: this is the most competing prototypes i 've found . industrial designer: user interface: but then uh loo but then i found if you look at you see on the left one there are too many buttons industrial designer: project manager: and they are small . user interface: yeah . o on the right i tried to play with the problem is that uh if i have hundred channels i have uh i have to choo press the other button to choose the hundred channels and i have to compose the number industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so it 's very lousy . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so you so you move to the next the next one . industrial designer: of course . user interface: yeah , so i talk about the problem . and then i i look at the user manual they are a hundred pages thick , so we do n't want that . project manager: yeah . user interface: so i propose the easy to use uh prototype . you can navigate on tv screen and we can the user 's preference and we need to have the tv connected to internet so we end in order to access the tv programmes by x_m_l_ and we need some to do some preprocessing . from the technical aspect , the processing should be done on the tv set than on the on the remote controller , right ? industrial designer: user interface: and then we the speech recognition as uh harry says we may just put in we may k_i_v_ . project manager: what do you mean by the pa pa processing will be done on the tv user interface: yeah , all the processing is done the tv is a compu has some processing power the project manager: than the industrial designer: so we have to t project manager: so we should have specific tv ? or ? we can use this . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we have to sell a tv with the remote control too . project manager: yeah , we do n't marketing: user interface: yeah because are you just wondering what controller okay . project manager: yeah , i think so . j j just the remote control . marketing: yeah , not the tvs . industrial designer: i think there there is there is al there there is a a technology like show view who is already available on most of the tv set on recorders or thing like that user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and we can try t to get this information on to the remote control to to do the processing on the remote control because user interface: okay . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . okay . marketing: yeah , that 's right . project manager: mm . user interface: so i the processing on on the remote controller project manager: yeah , user interface: so it can u be used in any tv , any conventional tv sets ? project manager: we . yeah . user interface: mm . okay . project manager: speech recognition . user interface: n yeah , that 's all . the next one ? so i come up with a simple design , just keep the v navigation buttons . industrial designer: yes , that 's a good idea , i think . project manager: keep the navigation industrial designer: we d we do n't we we do n't need really much buttons to i if we have a screen to navigate on on the tv so uh project manager: but user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: well , f four five buttons , it 's sufficient . user interface: yeah . mm . industrial designer: it 's easy to build , user interface: industrial designer: it does not consume much power . marketing: yeah , that 's right . project manager: . user interface: okay , that 's all . marketing: oh , but you have a catch there , um assume that um if you want to go to if you are watching channel two and if you want to go to channel ninety nine , then . user interface: industrial designer: well , then y you you go to the main menu and uh you have uh go to channel user interface: mm . industrial designer: and then uh you can user interface: mm . no , because you choose by channel , so you choose by tv program industrial designer: yeah . marketing: uh-huh huh huh huh . industrial designer: maybe you user interface: so you do n't have hundred channels to choose from . if you go by channel , you do n't have to do that . industrial designer: . marketing: mm-hmm hmm hmm . industrial designer: but uh i i think i i if you if you want to to make uh well a a big jump but uh well you you have to to have a a a device when you could you could marketing: but project manager: so you are user interface: ah . ah , a big jump . marketing: yeah then yeah that 's right . user interface: a mouse or industrial designer: well , not a mouse but uh something that that says more clearly that uh right , left , up , down , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: well , the to have the ability to to to write something to the navigator , maybe directly , or marketing: mm hmm hmm . okay . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so , marketing: okay . user interface: mm . industrial designer: we can think of buttons like in the telephone to send messages or things like that . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: how the this remote ? industrial designer: but we 'll see . user interface: uh it 's gon na be small . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , of course small . user interface: yeah . so it 'll beep if you wan na find it marketing: too small that it goes under the sofa and we ca n't find it . project manager: user interface: you just uh shout y h just it just has to re respond to you when you look for the device . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: marketing: that 's . user interface: i dunno how bu marketing: just give it a name and we call him . user interface: and responds to you , and industrial designer: marketing: yeah , that 's right . yeah , that 's right . industrial designer: okay , so uh next presentation user interface: project manager: participant four . so harry . marketing: okay , after having the inputs from industrial design and user interface , i think most of the points which i want to are already covered here . industrial designer: mm . user interface: marketing: and to find the most interesting features what the users would be interested , then what we have done is we have put a feedback forms in all the magazines , and the users send the feedbacks , and based on that these are the findings which we got and yeah adding of a speech interface is always good for a tv remote but the technology we already know that as discussed earlier industrial designer: well i i think it will be a , yes , a bit complicated to um make a speech recognisers runs on the small uh ts user interface: project manager: marketing: an it does how feasible it is . user interface: i- mm . but i think if you to recognise numbers it 's a well-studied problem . i if you just recognise uh numbers is a limited you have limited vocabulary marketing: oh we can put an limited vocabulary as in the mobile phones . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we just have the user interface: mm . industrial designer: and this can allow to choose the the program , for instance without uh adding uh buttons user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so it 's a good idea . marketing: it 's not going to take much space also . it 's going to be very slim . user interface: mm . mm . marketing: and next one was the size of the remote control . it has to be of course a very slim and small one . and of course most of the people are interested in if it 's less expensive , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm . marketing: so this is an important criteria here is user interface: but project manager: but do you think what they sug suggested s possibility . user interface: mm . marketing: i mean we have to look for a trade-off . user interface: yeah . marketing: the features and the cost . user interface: i no i i think that uh i if we go for quality people may tolerate for high quality and of course comes with uh reasonable cost . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . marketing: user interface: maybe not less , but they may be willing to pay little bit more for comfort , marketing: little bit more if it 's with extra features . project manager: it industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , extra features . industrial designer: yeah , s s speech is a important extra feature i think marketing: okay . user interface: mm . yeah . marketing: yeah , yeah . that 's right . project manager: but is it useful or not u i do n't know . industrial designer: well , uh project manager: there is in the marketing: i mean , for a lazy guys they could say nine and the nine channel comes . user interface: mm . industrial designer: marketing: or they say movie name or i do n't go for movie names but only for the numbers on the channel , or volume up , volume down , brightness , contrast . user interface: mm . project manager: mm . user interface: mm . marketing: so , i think this should be a good idea , to put this features . and the fourth one was the teletext in various languages . industrial designer: we we just have to find a mean how to to add a m a a a microphone or uh well yes a microphone into the the remote control , so marketing: mm , i think user interface: industrial designer: i well project manager: i think i industrial designer: it will be alright . marketing: project manager: if it 's necessary can you can do that . user interface: what is the teletext ? mm . project manager: we can integrate small microphone in the remote industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so it 's not really a problem . industrial designer: okay . project manager: what about lighting adaptive options ? marketing: yeah as discussed in the earlier meeting , but i think uh not much people are really interested in this point if it 's not really required . project manager: according to the re to the new requirements i think we do n't need that . yeah . user interface: it is interesting but we are only concerned with the remote controller . project manager: mm . user interface: so you need s special tv sets to do that ? or it 's it 's done via this remote controller ? it 's very complex . marketing: i mean industrial designer: yeah , i think it 's a bit complex too user interface: marketing: i mean yeah , it 's for the um industrial design and users interface designers to decide if it 's going to be working or not . user interface: mm . industrial designer: for our next product , our new tv set with uh automatical uh sound adjustment light marketing: i think project manager: user interface: yeah , then we can conclude that . yeah . yeah , but it 's quite possible but maybe not in this project . project manager: so we have i think we have s still we have couple of minutes . mm-mm . so any things to to discuss ? or any suggestions ? user interface: marketing: i think as i discussed th that four points would be good for um marketing . user interface: marketing: the speech interface and uh less uh reasonable uh cost . project manager: expensive . price . user interface: mm . marketing: and the lighting adaptation user interface: mm . marketing: and the teletext . and regarding the teletext uh these are the subtitl these are the text information which you got on the televisions . user interface: okay . marketing: if you are watching an foreign movie , you get subtitles sometimes . user interface: yeah . okay . marketing: and uh if you are a french guy watching an english movie you would like to have it in french . user interface: mm . industrial designer: . marketing: and if i am a german then i would like to have the my options in german . industrial designer: marketing: so , the remote it should have some it should give me some flexibility of choosing the ch languages . industrial designer: function . marketing: that should be a good uh point . industrial designer: yeah , but well what about the the new project 's requirement ? i i i think we should give up with teletext , no ? project manager: i think we we can we is the . industrial designer: yes . well , so maybe we we can j we can already think uh about a way to to access the internet via the television . user interface: mm . industrial designer: because if user interface: using the tv to access the internet ? or what ? i did n't quite understand industrial designer: yeah , but uh we can think that in a few years there will be tv set that can access the internet . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , okay . industrial designer: so it 's a good idea if i i if we i if if we uh think about how to to to build up our remote uh control w with this functionality in a w which will c which will come in a few years . marketing: we already have some . industrial designer: so if we already have it in our remote control project manager: so you have to anticipate the the future ? industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . the future demand , market demand . industrial designer: yeah , to desi marketing: yeah , that 's right . industrial designer: well , not not to implement it , but to well , to find a way to to add to add this functionality in a yeah , in an in an easy manner , if is possible . project manager: . user interface: the functionality in the future . project manager: in future . user interface: alright . yeah . because all the tv sets will be digital , right . all the programmes , everything will be in digital than analog . th the system will change and we have to anticipate for those change . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah , . industrial designer: okay . so project manager: okay . so let 's go for the the lunch break , and we will meet after . industrial designer: okay , thank you . user interface: okay . thank you . marketing: okay , thank you .

the team would add some software functionalities on programmable chips browsing by the content or things like that . they would use the fpga for the functionalities and use chargers rather than batteries .

why did industrial designer recommend the fpga when talking about industrial working design ? </s> project manager: so we come again for the the second meeting . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: uh for the aim of this meeting now is to to make presentation about uh the work for each one . user interface: project manager: and take the the decision about the the design and the functionality of the the remote control . user interface: okay . project manager: and we have think i got a new project requirement . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so i think uh teletext becomes outdated . so the popularity of the since the popularity of the internet , industrial designer: okay . project manager: and i think we do n't need lighting adaptive , so the remote control should be only used for the the television . and of course we should have our image in the in the design . so , let 's start with the the industrial designer . user interface: project manager: . user interface: industrial designer: yeah , alright . project manager: or y you can use the whiteboard if you want . industrial designer: so uh well i have a powerpoint pr presentation stored in my in my personal folder project manager: here . industrial designer: so i i i think you can reach it from here . marketing: just go to explorer . project manager: oh okay . marketing: or open . participant two . industrial designer: participant two . project manager: this one . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: open uh . industrial designer: uh open . project manager: do you want to open user interface: because it 's open you mean . project manager: industrial designer: right , so um i will talk about the the w working design and user interface: f_ five . marketing: slide show , view slide show , . project manager: ah . industrial designer: and um well i i will present my my first idea on how to build the our new remote control for television . user interface: industrial designer: so uh can you go one page down , please . so i think the first things to do is to define the hardware components neededs to achieve uh what we want to do . user interface: industrial designer: so uh mm i 'm thin uh i think uh i i 'll do a survey about what is uh what is available on the market and what what is the the cheapest possible things we hav we can use . then uh i will try with the technical team to to build a prototype and to see uh with uh h how this little box would uh look look like . user interface: industrial designer: and how an and we can uh start troubleshooting first uh com communication problems or things like that . user interface: industrial designer: and when we are ready with this first prototype i i think we can add some software functionalities on a programmable chip like browsing by content or um things like that . okay so can you go down uh so , wha what i think for now is we do n't want to have a remote control w which is wired user interface: project manager: industrial designer: so uh i think we u we can use a battery for the . then two programmable chips for both software functionalities and communication . and the communication with the tv set is uh made through uh infrared communication so uh this is the the schema of the o of the future uh remote controls user interface: did you draw it ? marketing: project manager: wow . industrial designer: so uh you can you can see the components , uh battery and uh the two chips goes to the infrared uh connection to the tv set . user interface: this . project manager: this user interface: what is the other chip for ? the one on top . industrial designer: the one on top is for the um well the functionali the functionalities user interface: marketing: one is a communication . industrial designer: and the the th red um sorry the green one is is to well , putting things together , um f transform the data into uh qu into the format to to uh to communicate with the tv set . user interface: for men . to the in okay . industrial designer: and , that 's it . i think we should use a f_p_g_a_ for for the functionalities which is easy to to t user interface: mm . what is f_p_g_a_ ? industrial designer: it 's field programmable uh something array . marketing: gateway arrays . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it 's a field programmable gateway arrays . user interface: so why 's it how is it different from the bluetooth ? industrial designer: well , uh a f_p_g_a_ is just a chip you can uh you can pr programme it uh wi with wh whatever you want . user interface: yeah . programme it . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . industrial designer: and uh well the bluetooth chip is just responsible to uh make the communication uh between uh the two devices . user interface: yeah . uh so this are the they have to work together ? or ? do they have to work together or two separate choice industrial designer: no . well , th the f_p_g_a_ will produce the the data to send . user interface: okay . marketing: or it 's something like is n't hardware the first one ? and the second one is for the software . user interface: is the is the software par alri okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah to run th to make it run . user interface: okay , okay . marketing: that 's it . user interface: so you can control if you want , right ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: no . industrial designer: alright and that 's it for the working design . user interface: industrial designer: so if you have any questions ? user interface: mm . marketing: okay , and how about the battery power ? uh you mean that battery would be somewhere there and the remote contro the power to the battery comes through infrared ? industrial designer: uh no no no no , i think uh we have uh to to uh have uh embedded uh b batteries in in the project manager: . marketing: into the industrial designer: yeah into the t . marketing: more compact and uh okay , industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: industrial designer: and uh i i do n't think it will need um very uh much power to make it run , so user interface: mm . mm . marketing: yeah , yeah . okay . user interface: mm . you can put it on the charger when uh you when you do n't need to use it . industrial designer: yeah . it 's a good idea . marketing: yeah , that 's right . user interface: yeah . marketing: having a charger rather than putting the battery cells always . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: people do n't like it to have to buy the batteries when they run out . user interface: yeah . mm . uh mm . marketing: we just make a small charger user interface: y yeah , yeah . marketing: and put it project manager: you can i yeah . user interface: because you are using because you are using bluetooth , if some people have p_d_a_ they can use their p_d_a_ to control the tv if they want to , right ? industrial designer: that 's a good idea . marketing: project manager: ma industrial designer: also , but but i i i think uh the the goal is to sell our remote control . project manager: user interface: i dunno . marketing: bu project manager: yeah we can change the b . marketing: our remote , project manager: yeah . marketing: we do not want to make it p_d_a_ . user interface: industrial designer: s okay , so charger for is the . project manager: um . user interface: so is mine . project manager: it 's mine . participant one , no ? user interface: oh . yeah , this your project manager: mm . oh we have so let 's move to to user interface design . user interface: yeah . so you can open uh project manager: participant user interface: three . yeah . so so i 'm working on the technical functions design . can you show the next slide . so the the purpose is to to find uh the important questions to ask is what effect should the apparatus have . so so i found on a webs on the internet project manager: during the weekend . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . i spent a lot of time searching industrial designer: project manager: that 's good . user interface: and uh and i found that uh the function of remote control is to send messages to television set . industrial designer: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: for example switch on , switch off , switch the next channel and so on and so on . marketing: g user interface: so i found two very good prototypes for for this interface from our competitors industrial designer: user interface: so can you industrial designer: project manager: this are usual functionality . user interface: yeah , yeah , yeah . ours is a bit uh different . so these are two example . one is from the other one is from , yeah , uh engineering centr yeah . project manager: tasks . industrial designer: user interface: this is the most competing prototypes i 've found . industrial designer: user interface: but then uh loo but then i found if you look at you see on the left one there are too many buttons industrial designer: project manager: and they are small . user interface: yeah . o on the right i tried to play with the problem is that uh if i have hundred channels i have uh i have to choo press the other button to choose the hundred channels and i have to compose the number industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so it 's very lousy . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so you so you move to the next the next one . industrial designer: of course . user interface: yeah , so i talk about the problem . and then i i look at the user manual they are a hundred pages thick , so we do n't want that . project manager: yeah . user interface: so i propose the easy to use uh prototype . you can navigate on tv screen and we can the user 's preference and we need to have the tv connected to internet so we end in order to access the tv programmes by x_m_l_ and we need some to do some preprocessing . from the technical aspect , the processing should be done on the tv set than on the on the remote controller , right ? industrial designer: user interface: and then we the speech recognition as uh harry says we may just put in we may k_i_v_ . project manager: what do you mean by the pa pa processing will be done on the tv user interface: yeah , all the processing is done the tv is a compu has some processing power the project manager: than the industrial designer: so we have to t project manager: so we should have specific tv ? or ? we can use this . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we have to sell a tv with the remote control too . project manager: yeah , we do n't marketing: user interface: yeah because are you just wondering what controller okay . project manager: yeah , i think so . j j just the remote control . marketing: yeah , not the tvs . industrial designer: i think there there is there is al there there is a a technology like show view who is already available on most of the tv set on recorders or thing like that user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and we can try t to get this information on to the remote control to to do the processing on the remote control because user interface: okay . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . okay . marketing: yeah , that 's right . project manager: mm . user interface: so i the processing on on the remote controller project manager: yeah , user interface: so it can u be used in any tv , any conventional tv sets ? project manager: we . yeah . user interface: mm . okay . project manager: speech recognition . user interface: n yeah , that 's all . the next one ? so i come up with a simple design , just keep the v navigation buttons . industrial designer: yes , that 's a good idea , i think . project manager: keep the navigation industrial designer: we d we do n't we we do n't need really much buttons to i if we have a screen to navigate on on the tv so uh project manager: but user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: well , f four five buttons , it 's sufficient . user interface: yeah . mm . industrial designer: it 's easy to build , user interface: industrial designer: it does not consume much power . marketing: yeah , that 's right . project manager: . user interface: okay , that 's all . marketing: oh , but you have a catch there , um assume that um if you want to go to if you are watching channel two and if you want to go to channel ninety nine , then . user interface: industrial designer: well , then y you you go to the main menu and uh you have uh go to channel user interface: mm . industrial designer: and then uh you can user interface: mm . no , because you choose by channel , so you choose by tv program industrial designer: yeah . marketing: uh-huh huh huh huh . industrial designer: maybe you user interface: so you do n't have hundred channels to choose from . if you go by channel , you do n't have to do that . industrial designer: . marketing: mm-hmm hmm hmm . industrial designer: but uh i i think i i if you if you want to to make uh well a a big jump but uh well you you have to to have a a a device when you could you could marketing: but project manager: so you are user interface: ah . ah , a big jump . marketing: yeah then yeah that 's right . user interface: a mouse or industrial designer: well , not a mouse but uh something that that says more clearly that uh right , left , up , down , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: well , the to have the ability to to to write something to the navigator , maybe directly , or marketing: mm hmm hmm . okay . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so , marketing: okay . user interface: mm . industrial designer: we can think of buttons like in the telephone to send messages or things like that . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: how the this remote ? industrial designer: but we 'll see . user interface: uh it 's gon na be small . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , of course small . user interface: yeah . so it 'll beep if you wan na find it marketing: too small that it goes under the sofa and we ca n't find it . project manager: user interface: you just uh shout y h just it just has to re respond to you when you look for the device . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: marketing: that 's . user interface: i dunno how bu marketing: just give it a name and we call him . user interface: and responds to you , and industrial designer: marketing: yeah , that 's right . yeah , that 's right . industrial designer: okay , so uh next presentation user interface: project manager: participant four . so harry . marketing: okay , after having the inputs from industrial design and user interface , i think most of the points which i want to are already covered here . industrial designer: mm . user interface: marketing: and to find the most interesting features what the users would be interested , then what we have done is we have put a feedback forms in all the magazines , and the users send the feedbacks , and based on that these are the findings which we got and yeah adding of a speech interface is always good for a tv remote but the technology we already know that as discussed earlier industrial designer: well i i think it will be a , yes , a bit complicated to um make a speech recognisers runs on the small uh ts user interface: project manager: marketing: an it does how feasible it is . user interface: i- mm . but i think if you to recognise numbers it 's a well-studied problem . i if you just recognise uh numbers is a limited you have limited vocabulary marketing: oh we can put an limited vocabulary as in the mobile phones . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we just have the user interface: mm . industrial designer: and this can allow to choose the the program , for instance without uh adding uh buttons user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so it 's a good idea . marketing: it 's not going to take much space also . it 's going to be very slim . user interface: mm . mm . marketing: and next one was the size of the remote control . it has to be of course a very slim and small one . and of course most of the people are interested in if it 's less expensive , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm . marketing: so this is an important criteria here is user interface: but project manager: but do you think what they sug suggested s possibility . user interface: mm . marketing: i mean we have to look for a trade-off . user interface: yeah . marketing: the features and the cost . user interface: i no i i think that uh i if we go for quality people may tolerate for high quality and of course comes with uh reasonable cost . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . marketing: user interface: maybe not less , but they may be willing to pay little bit more for comfort , marketing: little bit more if it 's with extra features . project manager: it industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , extra features . industrial designer: yeah , s s speech is a important extra feature i think marketing: okay . user interface: mm . yeah . marketing: yeah , yeah . that 's right . project manager: but is it useful or not u i do n't know . industrial designer: well , uh project manager: there is in the marketing: i mean , for a lazy guys they could say nine and the nine channel comes . user interface: mm . industrial designer: marketing: or they say movie name or i do n't go for movie names but only for the numbers on the channel , or volume up , volume down , brightness , contrast . user interface: mm . project manager: mm . user interface: mm . marketing: so , i think this should be a good idea , to put this features . and the fourth one was the teletext in various languages . industrial designer: we we just have to find a mean how to to add a m a a a microphone or uh well yes a microphone into the the remote control , so marketing: mm , i think user interface: industrial designer: i well project manager: i think i industrial designer: it will be alright . marketing: project manager: if it 's necessary can you can do that . user interface: what is the teletext ? mm . project manager: we can integrate small microphone in the remote industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so it 's not really a problem . industrial designer: okay . project manager: what about lighting adaptive options ? marketing: yeah as discussed in the earlier meeting , but i think uh not much people are really interested in this point if it 's not really required . project manager: according to the re to the new requirements i think we do n't need that . yeah . user interface: it is interesting but we are only concerned with the remote controller . project manager: mm . user interface: so you need s special tv sets to do that ? or it 's it 's done via this remote controller ? it 's very complex . marketing: i mean industrial designer: yeah , i think it 's a bit complex too user interface: marketing: i mean yeah , it 's for the um industrial design and users interface designers to decide if it 's going to be working or not . user interface: mm . industrial designer: for our next product , our new tv set with uh automatical uh sound adjustment light marketing: i think project manager: user interface: yeah , then we can conclude that . yeah . yeah , but it 's quite possible but maybe not in this project . project manager: so we have i think we have s still we have couple of minutes . mm-mm . so any things to to discuss ? or any suggestions ? user interface: marketing: i think as i discussed th that four points would be good for um marketing . user interface: marketing: the speech interface and uh less uh reasonable uh cost . project manager: expensive . price . user interface: mm . marketing: and the lighting adaptation user interface: mm . marketing: and the teletext . and regarding the teletext uh these are the subtitl these are the text information which you got on the televisions . user interface: okay . marketing: if you are watching an foreign movie , you get subtitles sometimes . user interface: yeah . okay . marketing: and uh if you are a french guy watching an english movie you would like to have it in french . user interface: mm . industrial designer: . marketing: and if i am a german then i would like to have the my options in german . industrial designer: marketing: so , the remote it should have some it should give me some flexibility of choosing the ch languages . industrial designer: function . marketing: that should be a good uh point . industrial designer: yeah , but well what about the the new project 's requirement ? i i i think we should give up with teletext , no ? project manager: i think we we can we is the . industrial designer: yes . well , so maybe we we can j we can already think uh about a way to to access the internet via the television . user interface: mm . industrial designer: because if user interface: using the tv to access the internet ? or what ? i did n't quite understand industrial designer: yeah , but uh we can think that in a few years there will be tv set that can access the internet . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , okay . industrial designer: so it 's a good idea if i i if we i if if we uh think about how to to to build up our remote uh control w with this functionality in a w which will c which will come in a few years . marketing: we already have some . industrial designer: so if we already have it in our remote control project manager: so you have to anticipate the the future ? industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . the future demand , market demand . industrial designer: yeah , to desi marketing: yeah , that 's right . industrial designer: well , not not to implement it , but to well , to find a way to to add to add this functionality in a yeah , in an in an easy manner , if is possible . project manager: . user interface: the functionality in the future . project manager: in future . user interface: alright . yeah . because all the tv sets will be digital , right . all the programmes , everything will be in digital than analog . th the system will change and we have to anticipate for those change . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah , . industrial designer: okay . so project manager: okay . so let 's go for the the lunch break , and we will meet after . industrial designer: okay , thank you . user interface: okay . thank you . marketing: okay , thank you .

industrial designer said that fpga was a field programmable gateway array . the bluetooth chip was just responsible to make the communication between the two devices , but the fpga was different . the fpga would produce the data to send and it was for software .

why did industrial designer recommend a charger rather than a battery when talking about industrial working design ? </s> project manager: so we come again for the the second meeting . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: uh for the aim of this meeting now is to to make presentation about uh the work for each one . user interface: project manager: and take the the decision about the the design and the functionality of the the remote control . user interface: okay . project manager: and we have think i got a new project requirement . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so i think uh teletext becomes outdated . so the popularity of the since the popularity of the internet , industrial designer: okay . project manager: and i think we do n't need lighting adaptive , so the remote control should be only used for the the television . and of course we should have our image in the in the design . so , let 's start with the the industrial designer . user interface: project manager: . user interface: industrial designer: yeah , alright . project manager: or y you can use the whiteboard if you want . industrial designer: so uh well i have a powerpoint pr presentation stored in my in my personal folder project manager: here . industrial designer: so i i i think you can reach it from here . marketing: just go to explorer . project manager: oh okay . marketing: or open . participant two . industrial designer: participant two . project manager: this one . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: open uh . industrial designer: uh open . project manager: do you want to open user interface: because it 's open you mean . project manager: industrial designer: right , so um i will talk about the the w working design and user interface: f_ five . marketing: slide show , view slide show , . project manager: ah . industrial designer: and um well i i will present my my first idea on how to build the our new remote control for television . user interface: industrial designer: so uh can you go one page down , please . so i think the first things to do is to define the hardware components neededs to achieve uh what we want to do . user interface: industrial designer: so uh mm i 'm thin uh i think uh i i 'll do a survey about what is uh what is available on the market and what what is the the cheapest possible things we hav we can use . then uh i will try with the technical team to to build a prototype and to see uh with uh h how this little box would uh look look like . user interface: industrial designer: and how an and we can uh start troubleshooting first uh com communication problems or things like that . user interface: industrial designer: and when we are ready with this first prototype i i think we can add some software functionalities on a programmable chip like browsing by content or um things like that . okay so can you go down uh so , wha what i think for now is we do n't want to have a remote control w which is wired user interface: project manager: industrial designer: so uh i think we u we can use a battery for the . then two programmable chips for both software functionalities and communication . and the communication with the tv set is uh made through uh infrared communication so uh this is the the schema of the o of the future uh remote controls user interface: did you draw it ? marketing: project manager: wow . industrial designer: so uh you can you can see the components , uh battery and uh the two chips goes to the infrared uh connection to the tv set . user interface: this . project manager: this user interface: what is the other chip for ? the one on top . industrial designer: the one on top is for the um well the functionali the functionalities user interface: marketing: one is a communication . industrial designer: and the the th red um sorry the green one is is to well , putting things together , um f transform the data into uh qu into the format to to uh to communicate with the tv set . user interface: for men . to the in okay . industrial designer: and , that 's it . i think we should use a f_p_g_a_ for for the functionalities which is easy to to t user interface: mm . what is f_p_g_a_ ? industrial designer: it 's field programmable uh something array . marketing: gateway arrays . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it 's a field programmable gateway arrays . user interface: so why 's it how is it different from the bluetooth ? industrial designer: well , uh a f_p_g_a_ is just a chip you can uh you can pr programme it uh wi with wh whatever you want . user interface: yeah . programme it . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . industrial designer: and uh well the bluetooth chip is just responsible to uh make the communication uh between uh the two devices . user interface: yeah . uh so this are the they have to work together ? or ? do they have to work together or two separate choice industrial designer: no . well , th the f_p_g_a_ will produce the the data to send . user interface: okay . marketing: or it 's something like is n't hardware the first one ? and the second one is for the software . user interface: is the is the software par alri okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah to run th to make it run . user interface: okay , okay . marketing: that 's it . user interface: so you can control if you want , right ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: no . industrial designer: alright and that 's it for the working design . user interface: industrial designer: so if you have any questions ? user interface: mm . marketing: okay , and how about the battery power ? uh you mean that battery would be somewhere there and the remote contro the power to the battery comes through infrared ? industrial designer: uh no no no no , i think uh we have uh to to uh have uh embedded uh b batteries in in the project manager: . marketing: into the industrial designer: yeah into the t . marketing: more compact and uh okay , industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: industrial designer: and uh i i do n't think it will need um very uh much power to make it run , so user interface: mm . mm . marketing: yeah , yeah . okay . user interface: mm . you can put it on the charger when uh you when you do n't need to use it . industrial designer: yeah . it 's a good idea . marketing: yeah , that 's right . user interface: yeah . marketing: having a charger rather than putting the battery cells always . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: people do n't like it to have to buy the batteries when they run out . user interface: yeah . mm . uh mm . marketing: we just make a small charger user interface: y yeah , yeah . marketing: and put it project manager: you can i yeah . user interface: because you are using because you are using bluetooth , if some people have p_d_a_ they can use their p_d_a_ to control the tv if they want to , right ? industrial designer: that 's a good idea . marketing: project manager: ma industrial designer: also , but but i i i think uh the the goal is to sell our remote control . project manager: user interface: i dunno . marketing: bu project manager: yeah we can change the b . marketing: our remote , project manager: yeah . marketing: we do not want to make it p_d_a_ . user interface: industrial designer: s okay , so charger for is the . project manager: um . user interface: so is mine . project manager: it 's mine . participant one , no ? user interface: oh . yeah , this your project manager: mm . oh we have so let 's move to to user interface design . user interface: yeah . so you can open uh project manager: participant user interface: three . yeah . so so i 'm working on the technical functions design . can you show the next slide . so the the purpose is to to find uh the important questions to ask is what effect should the apparatus have . so so i found on a webs on the internet project manager: during the weekend . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . i spent a lot of time searching industrial designer: project manager: that 's good . user interface: and uh and i found that uh the function of remote control is to send messages to television set . industrial designer: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: for example switch on , switch off , switch the next channel and so on and so on . marketing: g user interface: so i found two very good prototypes for for this interface from our competitors industrial designer: user interface: so can you industrial designer: project manager: this are usual functionality . user interface: yeah , yeah , yeah . ours is a bit uh different . so these are two example . one is from the other one is from , yeah , uh engineering centr yeah . project manager: tasks . industrial designer: user interface: this is the most competing prototypes i 've found . industrial designer: user interface: but then uh loo but then i found if you look at you see on the left one there are too many buttons industrial designer: project manager: and they are small . user interface: yeah . o on the right i tried to play with the problem is that uh if i have hundred channels i have uh i have to choo press the other button to choose the hundred channels and i have to compose the number industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so it 's very lousy . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so you so you move to the next the next one . industrial designer: of course . user interface: yeah , so i talk about the problem . and then i i look at the user manual they are a hundred pages thick , so we do n't want that . project manager: yeah . user interface: so i propose the easy to use uh prototype . you can navigate on tv screen and we can the user 's preference and we need to have the tv connected to internet so we end in order to access the tv programmes by x_m_l_ and we need some to do some preprocessing . from the technical aspect , the processing should be done on the tv set than on the on the remote controller , right ? industrial designer: user interface: and then we the speech recognition as uh harry says we may just put in we may k_i_v_ . project manager: what do you mean by the pa pa processing will be done on the tv user interface: yeah , all the processing is done the tv is a compu has some processing power the project manager: than the industrial designer: so we have to t project manager: so we should have specific tv ? or ? we can use this . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we have to sell a tv with the remote control too . project manager: yeah , we do n't marketing: user interface: yeah because are you just wondering what controller okay . project manager: yeah , i think so . j j just the remote control . marketing: yeah , not the tvs . industrial designer: i think there there is there is al there there is a a technology like show view who is already available on most of the tv set on recorders or thing like that user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and we can try t to get this information on to the remote control to to do the processing on the remote control because user interface: okay . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . okay . marketing: yeah , that 's right . project manager: mm . user interface: so i the processing on on the remote controller project manager: yeah , user interface: so it can u be used in any tv , any conventional tv sets ? project manager: we . yeah . user interface: mm . okay . project manager: speech recognition . user interface: n yeah , that 's all . the next one ? so i come up with a simple design , just keep the v navigation buttons . industrial designer: yes , that 's a good idea , i think . project manager: keep the navigation industrial designer: we d we do n't we we do n't need really much buttons to i if we have a screen to navigate on on the tv so uh project manager: but user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: well , f four five buttons , it 's sufficient . user interface: yeah . mm . industrial designer: it 's easy to build , user interface: industrial designer: it does not consume much power . marketing: yeah , that 's right . project manager: . user interface: okay , that 's all . marketing: oh , but you have a catch there , um assume that um if you want to go to if you are watching channel two and if you want to go to channel ninety nine , then . user interface: industrial designer: well , then y you you go to the main menu and uh you have uh go to channel user interface: mm . industrial designer: and then uh you can user interface: mm . no , because you choose by channel , so you choose by tv program industrial designer: yeah . marketing: uh-huh huh huh huh . industrial designer: maybe you user interface: so you do n't have hundred channels to choose from . if you go by channel , you do n't have to do that . industrial designer: . marketing: mm-hmm hmm hmm . industrial designer: but uh i i think i i if you if you want to to make uh well a a big jump but uh well you you have to to have a a a device when you could you could marketing: but project manager: so you are user interface: ah . ah , a big jump . marketing: yeah then yeah that 's right . user interface: a mouse or industrial designer: well , not a mouse but uh something that that says more clearly that uh right , left , up , down , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: well , the to have the ability to to to write something to the navigator , maybe directly , or marketing: mm hmm hmm . okay . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so , marketing: okay . user interface: mm . industrial designer: we can think of buttons like in the telephone to send messages or things like that . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: how the this remote ? industrial designer: but we 'll see . user interface: uh it 's gon na be small . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , of course small . user interface: yeah . so it 'll beep if you wan na find it marketing: too small that it goes under the sofa and we ca n't find it . project manager: user interface: you just uh shout y h just it just has to re respond to you when you look for the device . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: marketing: that 's . user interface: i dunno how bu marketing: just give it a name and we call him . user interface: and responds to you , and industrial designer: marketing: yeah , that 's right . yeah , that 's right . industrial designer: okay , so uh next presentation user interface: project manager: participant four . so harry . marketing: okay , after having the inputs from industrial design and user interface , i think most of the points which i want to are already covered here . industrial designer: mm . user interface: marketing: and to find the most interesting features what the users would be interested , then what we have done is we have put a feedback forms in all the magazines , and the users send the feedbacks , and based on that these are the findings which we got and yeah adding of a speech interface is always good for a tv remote but the technology we already know that as discussed earlier industrial designer: well i i think it will be a , yes , a bit complicated to um make a speech recognisers runs on the small uh ts user interface: project manager: marketing: an it does how feasible it is . user interface: i- mm . but i think if you to recognise numbers it 's a well-studied problem . i if you just recognise uh numbers is a limited you have limited vocabulary marketing: oh we can put an limited vocabulary as in the mobile phones . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we just have the user interface: mm . industrial designer: and this can allow to choose the the program , for instance without uh adding uh buttons user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so it 's a good idea . marketing: it 's not going to take much space also . it 's going to be very slim . user interface: mm . mm . marketing: and next one was the size of the remote control . it has to be of course a very slim and small one . and of course most of the people are interested in if it 's less expensive , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm . marketing: so this is an important criteria here is user interface: but project manager: but do you think what they sug suggested s possibility . user interface: mm . marketing: i mean we have to look for a trade-off . user interface: yeah . marketing: the features and the cost . user interface: i no i i think that uh i if we go for quality people may tolerate for high quality and of course comes with uh reasonable cost . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . marketing: user interface: maybe not less , but they may be willing to pay little bit more for comfort , marketing: little bit more if it 's with extra features . project manager: it industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , extra features . industrial designer: yeah , s s speech is a important extra feature i think marketing: okay . user interface: mm . yeah . marketing: yeah , yeah . that 's right . project manager: but is it useful or not u i do n't know . industrial designer: well , uh project manager: there is in the marketing: i mean , for a lazy guys they could say nine and the nine channel comes . user interface: mm . industrial designer: marketing: or they say movie name or i do n't go for movie names but only for the numbers on the channel , or volume up , volume down , brightness , contrast . user interface: mm . project manager: mm . user interface: mm . marketing: so , i think this should be a good idea , to put this features . and the fourth one was the teletext in various languages . industrial designer: we we just have to find a mean how to to add a m a a a microphone or uh well yes a microphone into the the remote control , so marketing: mm , i think user interface: industrial designer: i well project manager: i think i industrial designer: it will be alright . marketing: project manager: if it 's necessary can you can do that . user interface: what is the teletext ? mm . project manager: we can integrate small microphone in the remote industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so it 's not really a problem . industrial designer: okay . project manager: what about lighting adaptive options ? marketing: yeah as discussed in the earlier meeting , but i think uh not much people are really interested in this point if it 's not really required . project manager: according to the re to the new requirements i think we do n't need that . yeah . user interface: it is interesting but we are only concerned with the remote controller . project manager: mm . user interface: so you need s special tv sets to do that ? or it 's it 's done via this remote controller ? it 's very complex . marketing: i mean industrial designer: yeah , i think it 's a bit complex too user interface: marketing: i mean yeah , it 's for the um industrial design and users interface designers to decide if it 's going to be working or not . user interface: mm . industrial designer: for our next product , our new tv set with uh automatical uh sound adjustment light marketing: i think project manager: user interface: yeah , then we can conclude that . yeah . yeah , but it 's quite possible but maybe not in this project . project manager: so we have i think we have s still we have couple of minutes . mm-mm . so any things to to discuss ? or any suggestions ? user interface: marketing: i think as i discussed th that four points would be good for um marketing . user interface: marketing: the speech interface and uh less uh reasonable uh cost . project manager: expensive . price . user interface: mm . marketing: and the lighting adaptation user interface: mm . marketing: and the teletext . and regarding the teletext uh these are the subtitl these are the text information which you got on the televisions . user interface: okay . marketing: if you are watching an foreign movie , you get subtitles sometimes . user interface: yeah . okay . marketing: and uh if you are a french guy watching an english movie you would like to have it in french . user interface: mm . industrial designer: . marketing: and if i am a german then i would like to have the my options in german . industrial designer: marketing: so , the remote it should have some it should give me some flexibility of choosing the ch languages . industrial designer: function . marketing: that should be a good uh point . industrial designer: yeah , but well what about the the new project 's requirement ? i i i think we should give up with teletext , no ? project manager: i think we we can we is the . industrial designer: yes . well , so maybe we we can j we can already think uh about a way to to access the internet via the television . user interface: mm . industrial designer: because if user interface: using the tv to access the internet ? or what ? i did n't quite understand industrial designer: yeah , but uh we can think that in a few years there will be tv set that can access the internet . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , okay . industrial designer: so it 's a good idea if i i if we i if if we uh think about how to to to build up our remote uh control w with this functionality in a w which will c which will come in a few years . marketing: we already have some . industrial designer: so if we already have it in our remote control project manager: so you have to anticipate the the future ? industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . the future demand , market demand . industrial designer: yeah , to desi marketing: yeah , that 's right . industrial designer: well , not not to implement it , but to well , to find a way to to add to add this functionality in a yeah , in an in an easy manner , if is possible . project manager: . user interface: the functionality in the future . project manager: in future . user interface: alright . yeah . because all the tv sets will be digital , right . all the programmes , everything will be in digital than analog . th the system will change and we have to anticipate for those change . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah , . industrial designer: okay . so project manager: okay . so let 's go for the the lunch break , and we will meet after . industrial designer: okay , thank you . user interface: okay . thank you . marketing: okay , thank you .

the remote control did not need very much power . users could put it on the charger when they did not need to use it . people do n't like it to have to buy the batteries when they run out , so a charger could be more user friendly .

what were the main points of marketing when giving a presentation which linked the project with market interests ? </s> project manager: so we come again for the the second meeting . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: uh for the aim of this meeting now is to to make presentation about uh the work for each one . user interface: project manager: and take the the decision about the the design and the functionality of the the remote control . user interface: okay . project manager: and we have think i got a new project requirement . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so i think uh teletext becomes outdated . so the popularity of the since the popularity of the internet , industrial designer: okay . project manager: and i think we do n't need lighting adaptive , so the remote control should be only used for the the television . and of course we should have our image in the in the design . so , let 's start with the the industrial designer . user interface: project manager: . user interface: industrial designer: yeah , alright . project manager: or y you can use the whiteboard if you want . industrial designer: so uh well i have a powerpoint pr presentation stored in my in my personal folder project manager: here . industrial designer: so i i i think you can reach it from here . marketing: just go to explorer . project manager: oh okay . marketing: or open . participant two . industrial designer: participant two . project manager: this one . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: open uh . industrial designer: uh open . project manager: do you want to open user interface: because it 's open you mean . project manager: industrial designer: right , so um i will talk about the the w working design and user interface: f_ five . marketing: slide show , view slide show , . project manager: ah . industrial designer: and um well i i will present my my first idea on how to build the our new remote control for television . user interface: industrial designer: so uh can you go one page down , please . so i think the first things to do is to define the hardware components neededs to achieve uh what we want to do . user interface: industrial designer: so uh mm i 'm thin uh i think uh i i 'll do a survey about what is uh what is available on the market and what what is the the cheapest possible things we hav we can use . then uh i will try with the technical team to to build a prototype and to see uh with uh h how this little box would uh look look like . user interface: industrial designer: and how an and we can uh start troubleshooting first uh com communication problems or things like that . user interface: industrial designer: and when we are ready with this first prototype i i think we can add some software functionalities on a programmable chip like browsing by content or um things like that . okay so can you go down uh so , wha what i think for now is we do n't want to have a remote control w which is wired user interface: project manager: industrial designer: so uh i think we u we can use a battery for the . then two programmable chips for both software functionalities and communication . and the communication with the tv set is uh made through uh infrared communication so uh this is the the schema of the o of the future uh remote controls user interface: did you draw it ? marketing: project manager: wow . industrial designer: so uh you can you can see the components , uh battery and uh the two chips goes to the infrared uh connection to the tv set . user interface: this . project manager: this user interface: what is the other chip for ? the one on top . industrial designer: the one on top is for the um well the functionali the functionalities user interface: marketing: one is a communication . industrial designer: and the the th red um sorry the green one is is to well , putting things together , um f transform the data into uh qu into the format to to uh to communicate with the tv set . user interface: for men . to the in okay . industrial designer: and , that 's it . i think we should use a f_p_g_a_ for for the functionalities which is easy to to t user interface: mm . what is f_p_g_a_ ? industrial designer: it 's field programmable uh something array . marketing: gateway arrays . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it 's a field programmable gateway arrays . user interface: so why 's it how is it different from the bluetooth ? industrial designer: well , uh a f_p_g_a_ is just a chip you can uh you can pr programme it uh wi with wh whatever you want . user interface: yeah . programme it . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . industrial designer: and uh well the bluetooth chip is just responsible to uh make the communication uh between uh the two devices . user interface: yeah . uh so this are the they have to work together ? or ? do they have to work together or two separate choice industrial designer: no . well , th the f_p_g_a_ will produce the the data to send . user interface: okay . marketing: or it 's something like is n't hardware the first one ? and the second one is for the software . user interface: is the is the software par alri okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah to run th to make it run . user interface: okay , okay . marketing: that 's it . user interface: so you can control if you want , right ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: no . industrial designer: alright and that 's it for the working design . user interface: industrial designer: so if you have any questions ? user interface: mm . marketing: okay , and how about the battery power ? uh you mean that battery would be somewhere there and the remote contro the power to the battery comes through infrared ? industrial designer: uh no no no no , i think uh we have uh to to uh have uh embedded uh b batteries in in the project manager: . marketing: into the industrial designer: yeah into the t . marketing: more compact and uh okay , industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: industrial designer: and uh i i do n't think it will need um very uh much power to make it run , so user interface: mm . mm . marketing: yeah , yeah . okay . user interface: mm . you can put it on the charger when uh you when you do n't need to use it . industrial designer: yeah . it 's a good idea . marketing: yeah , that 's right . user interface: yeah . marketing: having a charger rather than putting the battery cells always . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: people do n't like it to have to buy the batteries when they run out . user interface: yeah . mm . uh mm . marketing: we just make a small charger user interface: y yeah , yeah . marketing: and put it project manager: you can i yeah . user interface: because you are using because you are using bluetooth , if some people have p_d_a_ they can use their p_d_a_ to control the tv if they want to , right ? industrial designer: that 's a good idea . marketing: project manager: ma industrial designer: also , but but i i i think uh the the goal is to sell our remote control . project manager: user interface: i dunno . marketing: bu project manager: yeah we can change the b . marketing: our remote , project manager: yeah . marketing: we do not want to make it p_d_a_ . user interface: industrial designer: s okay , so charger for is the . project manager: um . user interface: so is mine . project manager: it 's mine . participant one , no ? user interface: oh . yeah , this your project manager: mm . oh we have so let 's move to to user interface design . user interface: yeah . so you can open uh project manager: participant user interface: three . yeah . so so i 'm working on the technical functions design . can you show the next slide . so the the purpose is to to find uh the important questions to ask is what effect should the apparatus have . so so i found on a webs on the internet project manager: during the weekend . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . i spent a lot of time searching industrial designer: project manager: that 's good . user interface: and uh and i found that uh the function of remote control is to send messages to television set . industrial designer: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: for example switch on , switch off , switch the next channel and so on and so on . marketing: g user interface: so i found two very good prototypes for for this interface from our competitors industrial designer: user interface: so can you industrial designer: project manager: this are usual functionality . user interface: yeah , yeah , yeah . ours is a bit uh different . so these are two example . one is from the other one is from , yeah , uh engineering centr yeah . project manager: tasks . industrial designer: user interface: this is the most competing prototypes i 've found . industrial designer: user interface: but then uh loo but then i found if you look at you see on the left one there are too many buttons industrial designer: project manager: and they are small . user interface: yeah . o on the right i tried to play with the problem is that uh if i have hundred channels i have uh i have to choo press the other button to choose the hundred channels and i have to compose the number industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so it 's very lousy . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so you so you move to the next the next one . industrial designer: of course . user interface: yeah , so i talk about the problem . and then i i look at the user manual they are a hundred pages thick , so we do n't want that . project manager: yeah . user interface: so i propose the easy to use uh prototype . you can navigate on tv screen and we can the user 's preference and we need to have the tv connected to internet so we end in order to access the tv programmes by x_m_l_ and we need some to do some preprocessing . from the technical aspect , the processing should be done on the tv set than on the on the remote controller , right ? industrial designer: user interface: and then we the speech recognition as uh harry says we may just put in we may k_i_v_ . project manager: what do you mean by the pa pa processing will be done on the tv user interface: yeah , all the processing is done the tv is a compu has some processing power the project manager: than the industrial designer: so we have to t project manager: so we should have specific tv ? or ? we can use this . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we have to sell a tv with the remote control too . project manager: yeah , we do n't marketing: user interface: yeah because are you just wondering what controller okay . project manager: yeah , i think so . j j just the remote control . marketing: yeah , not the tvs . industrial designer: i think there there is there is al there there is a a technology like show view who is already available on most of the tv set on recorders or thing like that user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and we can try t to get this information on to the remote control to to do the processing on the remote control because user interface: okay . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . okay . marketing: yeah , that 's right . project manager: mm . user interface: so i the processing on on the remote controller project manager: yeah , user interface: so it can u be used in any tv , any conventional tv sets ? project manager: we . yeah . user interface: mm . okay . project manager: speech recognition . user interface: n yeah , that 's all . the next one ? so i come up with a simple design , just keep the v navigation buttons . industrial designer: yes , that 's a good idea , i think . project manager: keep the navigation industrial designer: we d we do n't we we do n't need really much buttons to i if we have a screen to navigate on on the tv so uh project manager: but user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: well , f four five buttons , it 's sufficient . user interface: yeah . mm . industrial designer: it 's easy to build , user interface: industrial designer: it does not consume much power . marketing: yeah , that 's right . project manager: . user interface: okay , that 's all . marketing: oh , but you have a catch there , um assume that um if you want to go to if you are watching channel two and if you want to go to channel ninety nine , then . user interface: industrial designer: well , then y you you go to the main menu and uh you have uh go to channel user interface: mm . industrial designer: and then uh you can user interface: mm . no , because you choose by channel , so you choose by tv program industrial designer: yeah . marketing: uh-huh huh huh huh . industrial designer: maybe you user interface: so you do n't have hundred channels to choose from . if you go by channel , you do n't have to do that . industrial designer: . marketing: mm-hmm hmm hmm . industrial designer: but uh i i think i i if you if you want to to make uh well a a big jump but uh well you you have to to have a a a device when you could you could marketing: but project manager: so you are user interface: ah . ah , a big jump . marketing: yeah then yeah that 's right . user interface: a mouse or industrial designer: well , not a mouse but uh something that that says more clearly that uh right , left , up , down , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: well , the to have the ability to to to write something to the navigator , maybe directly , or marketing: mm hmm hmm . okay . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so , marketing: okay . user interface: mm . industrial designer: we can think of buttons like in the telephone to send messages or things like that . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: how the this remote ? industrial designer: but we 'll see . user interface: uh it 's gon na be small . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , of course small . user interface: yeah . so it 'll beep if you wan na find it marketing: too small that it goes under the sofa and we ca n't find it . project manager: user interface: you just uh shout y h just it just has to re respond to you when you look for the device . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: marketing: that 's . user interface: i dunno how bu marketing: just give it a name and we call him . user interface: and responds to you , and industrial designer: marketing: yeah , that 's right . yeah , that 's right . industrial designer: okay , so uh next presentation user interface: project manager: participant four . so harry . marketing: okay , after having the inputs from industrial design and user interface , i think most of the points which i want to are already covered here . industrial designer: mm . user interface: marketing: and to find the most interesting features what the users would be interested , then what we have done is we have put a feedback forms in all the magazines , and the users send the feedbacks , and based on that these are the findings which we got and yeah adding of a speech interface is always good for a tv remote but the technology we already know that as discussed earlier industrial designer: well i i think it will be a , yes , a bit complicated to um make a speech recognisers runs on the small uh ts user interface: project manager: marketing: an it does how feasible it is . user interface: i- mm . but i think if you to recognise numbers it 's a well-studied problem . i if you just recognise uh numbers is a limited you have limited vocabulary marketing: oh we can put an limited vocabulary as in the mobile phones . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we just have the user interface: mm . industrial designer: and this can allow to choose the the program , for instance without uh adding uh buttons user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so it 's a good idea . marketing: it 's not going to take much space also . it 's going to be very slim . user interface: mm . mm . marketing: and next one was the size of the remote control . it has to be of course a very slim and small one . and of course most of the people are interested in if it 's less expensive , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm . marketing: so this is an important criteria here is user interface: but project manager: but do you think what they sug suggested s possibility . user interface: mm . marketing: i mean we have to look for a trade-off . user interface: yeah . marketing: the features and the cost . user interface: i no i i think that uh i if we go for quality people may tolerate for high quality and of course comes with uh reasonable cost . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . marketing: user interface: maybe not less , but they may be willing to pay little bit more for comfort , marketing: little bit more if it 's with extra features . project manager: it industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , extra features . industrial designer: yeah , s s speech is a important extra feature i think marketing: okay . user interface: mm . yeah . marketing: yeah , yeah . that 's right . project manager: but is it useful or not u i do n't know . industrial designer: well , uh project manager: there is in the marketing: i mean , for a lazy guys they could say nine and the nine channel comes . user interface: mm . industrial designer: marketing: or they say movie name or i do n't go for movie names but only for the numbers on the channel , or volume up , volume down , brightness , contrast . user interface: mm . project manager: mm . user interface: mm . marketing: so , i think this should be a good idea , to put this features . and the fourth one was the teletext in various languages . industrial designer: we we just have to find a mean how to to add a m a a a microphone or uh well yes a microphone into the the remote control , so marketing: mm , i think user interface: industrial designer: i well project manager: i think i industrial designer: it will be alright . marketing: project manager: if it 's necessary can you can do that . user interface: what is the teletext ? mm . project manager: we can integrate small microphone in the remote industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so it 's not really a problem . industrial designer: okay . project manager: what about lighting adaptive options ? marketing: yeah as discussed in the earlier meeting , but i think uh not much people are really interested in this point if it 's not really required . project manager: according to the re to the new requirements i think we do n't need that . yeah . user interface: it is interesting but we are only concerned with the remote controller . project manager: mm . user interface: so you need s special tv sets to do that ? or it 's it 's done via this remote controller ? it 's very complex . marketing: i mean industrial designer: yeah , i think it 's a bit complex too user interface: marketing: i mean yeah , it 's for the um industrial design and users interface designers to decide if it 's going to be working or not . user interface: mm . industrial designer: for our next product , our new tv set with uh automatical uh sound adjustment light marketing: i think project manager: user interface: yeah , then we can conclude that . yeah . yeah , but it 's quite possible but maybe not in this project . project manager: so we have i think we have s still we have couple of minutes . mm-mm . so any things to to discuss ? or any suggestions ? user interface: marketing: i think as i discussed th that four points would be good for um marketing . user interface: marketing: the speech interface and uh less uh reasonable uh cost . project manager: expensive . price . user interface: mm . marketing: and the lighting adaptation user interface: mm . marketing: and the teletext . and regarding the teletext uh these are the subtitl these are the text information which you got on the televisions . user interface: okay . marketing: if you are watching an foreign movie , you get subtitles sometimes . user interface: yeah . okay . marketing: and uh if you are a french guy watching an english movie you would like to have it in french . user interface: mm . industrial designer: . marketing: and if i am a german then i would like to have the my options in german . industrial designer: marketing: so , the remote it should have some it should give me some flexibility of choosing the ch languages . industrial designer: function . marketing: that should be a good uh point . industrial designer: yeah , but well what about the the new project 's requirement ? i i i think we should give up with teletext , no ? project manager: i think we we can we is the . industrial designer: yes . well , so maybe we we can j we can already think uh about a way to to access the internet via the television . user interface: mm . industrial designer: because if user interface: using the tv to access the internet ? or what ? i did n't quite understand industrial designer: yeah , but uh we can think that in a few years there will be tv set that can access the internet . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , okay . industrial designer: so it 's a good idea if i i if we i if if we uh think about how to to to build up our remote uh control w with this functionality in a w which will c which will come in a few years . marketing: we already have some . industrial designer: so if we already have it in our remote control project manager: so you have to anticipate the the future ? industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . the future demand , market demand . industrial designer: yeah , to desi marketing: yeah , that 's right . industrial designer: well , not not to implement it , but to well , to find a way to to add to add this functionality in a yeah , in an in an easy manner , if is possible . project manager: . user interface: the functionality in the future . project manager: in future . user interface: alright . yeah . because all the tv sets will be digital , right . all the programmes , everything will be in digital than analog . th the system will change and we have to anticipate for those change . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah , . industrial designer: okay . so project manager: okay . so let 's go for the the lunch break , and we will meet after . industrial designer: okay , thank you . user interface: okay . thank you . marketing: okay , thank you .

marketing thought that users would be interested in a speech recogniser and it could help users choose the program then reduce the number of buttons . the remote control should be small and comparatively cheap . not many people were interested in lighting adapting options , so it was for the industrial designer and users interface designer to decide if it 's going to be working or not .

what did the team decide about the speech recogniser when talking about presentation which linked the project with market interests ? </s> project manager: so we come again for the the second meeting . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: uh for the aim of this meeting now is to to make presentation about uh the work for each one . user interface: project manager: and take the the decision about the the design and the functionality of the the remote control . user interface: okay . project manager: and we have think i got a new project requirement . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so i think uh teletext becomes outdated . so the popularity of the since the popularity of the internet , industrial designer: okay . project manager: and i think we do n't need lighting adaptive , so the remote control should be only used for the the television . and of course we should have our image in the in the design . so , let 's start with the the industrial designer . user interface: project manager: . user interface: industrial designer: yeah , alright . project manager: or y you can use the whiteboard if you want . industrial designer: so uh well i have a powerpoint pr presentation stored in my in my personal folder project manager: here . industrial designer: so i i i think you can reach it from here . marketing: just go to explorer . project manager: oh okay . marketing: or open . participant two . industrial designer: participant two . project manager: this one . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: open uh . industrial designer: uh open . project manager: do you want to open user interface: because it 's open you mean . project manager: industrial designer: right , so um i will talk about the the w working design and user interface: f_ five . marketing: slide show , view slide show , . project manager: ah . industrial designer: and um well i i will present my my first idea on how to build the our new remote control for television . user interface: industrial designer: so uh can you go one page down , please . so i think the first things to do is to define the hardware components neededs to achieve uh what we want to do . user interface: industrial designer: so uh mm i 'm thin uh i think uh i i 'll do a survey about what is uh what is available on the market and what what is the the cheapest possible things we hav we can use . then uh i will try with the technical team to to build a prototype and to see uh with uh h how this little box would uh look look like . user interface: industrial designer: and how an and we can uh start troubleshooting first uh com communication problems or things like that . user interface: industrial designer: and when we are ready with this first prototype i i think we can add some software functionalities on a programmable chip like browsing by content or um things like that . okay so can you go down uh so , wha what i think for now is we do n't want to have a remote control w which is wired user interface: project manager: industrial designer: so uh i think we u we can use a battery for the . then two programmable chips for both software functionalities and communication . and the communication with the tv set is uh made through uh infrared communication so uh this is the the schema of the o of the future uh remote controls user interface: did you draw it ? marketing: project manager: wow . industrial designer: so uh you can you can see the components , uh battery and uh the two chips goes to the infrared uh connection to the tv set . user interface: this . project manager: this user interface: what is the other chip for ? the one on top . industrial designer: the one on top is for the um well the functionali the functionalities user interface: marketing: one is a communication . industrial designer: and the the th red um sorry the green one is is to well , putting things together , um f transform the data into uh qu into the format to to uh to communicate with the tv set . user interface: for men . to the in okay . industrial designer: and , that 's it . i think we should use a f_p_g_a_ for for the functionalities which is easy to to t user interface: mm . what is f_p_g_a_ ? industrial designer: it 's field programmable uh something array . marketing: gateway arrays . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it 's a field programmable gateway arrays . user interface: so why 's it how is it different from the bluetooth ? industrial designer: well , uh a f_p_g_a_ is just a chip you can uh you can pr programme it uh wi with wh whatever you want . user interface: yeah . programme it . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . industrial designer: and uh well the bluetooth chip is just responsible to uh make the communication uh between uh the two devices . user interface: yeah . uh so this are the they have to work together ? or ? do they have to work together or two separate choice industrial designer: no . well , th the f_p_g_a_ will produce the the data to send . user interface: okay . marketing: or it 's something like is n't hardware the first one ? and the second one is for the software . user interface: is the is the software par alri okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah to run th to make it run . user interface: okay , okay . marketing: that 's it . user interface: so you can control if you want , right ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: no . industrial designer: alright and that 's it for the working design . user interface: industrial designer: so if you have any questions ? user interface: mm . marketing: okay , and how about the battery power ? uh you mean that battery would be somewhere there and the remote contro the power to the battery comes through infrared ? industrial designer: uh no no no no , i think uh we have uh to to uh have uh embedded uh b batteries in in the project manager: . marketing: into the industrial designer: yeah into the t . marketing: more compact and uh okay , industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: industrial designer: and uh i i do n't think it will need um very uh much power to make it run , so user interface: mm . mm . marketing: yeah , yeah . okay . user interface: mm . you can put it on the charger when uh you when you do n't need to use it . industrial designer: yeah . it 's a good idea . marketing: yeah , that 's right . user interface: yeah . marketing: having a charger rather than putting the battery cells always . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: people do n't like it to have to buy the batteries when they run out . user interface: yeah . mm . uh mm . marketing: we just make a small charger user interface: y yeah , yeah . marketing: and put it project manager: you can i yeah . user interface: because you are using because you are using bluetooth , if some people have p_d_a_ they can use their p_d_a_ to control the tv if they want to , right ? industrial designer: that 's a good idea . marketing: project manager: ma industrial designer: also , but but i i i think uh the the goal is to sell our remote control . project manager: user interface: i dunno . marketing: bu project manager: yeah we can change the b . marketing: our remote , project manager: yeah . marketing: we do not want to make it p_d_a_ . user interface: industrial designer: s okay , so charger for is the . project manager: um . user interface: so is mine . project manager: it 's mine . participant one , no ? user interface: oh . yeah , this your project manager: mm . oh we have so let 's move to to user interface design . user interface: yeah . so you can open uh project manager: participant user interface: three . yeah . so so i 'm working on the technical functions design . can you show the next slide . so the the purpose is to to find uh the important questions to ask is what effect should the apparatus have . so so i found on a webs on the internet project manager: during the weekend . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . i spent a lot of time searching industrial designer: project manager: that 's good . user interface: and uh and i found that uh the function of remote control is to send messages to television set . industrial designer: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: for example switch on , switch off , switch the next channel and so on and so on . marketing: g user interface: so i found two very good prototypes for for this interface from our competitors industrial designer: user interface: so can you industrial designer: project manager: this are usual functionality . user interface: yeah , yeah , yeah . ours is a bit uh different . so these are two example . one is from the other one is from , yeah , uh engineering centr yeah . project manager: tasks . industrial designer: user interface: this is the most competing prototypes i 've found . industrial designer: user interface: but then uh loo but then i found if you look at you see on the left one there are too many buttons industrial designer: project manager: and they are small . user interface: yeah . o on the right i tried to play with the problem is that uh if i have hundred channels i have uh i have to choo press the other button to choose the hundred channels and i have to compose the number industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so it 's very lousy . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so you so you move to the next the next one . industrial designer: of course . user interface: yeah , so i talk about the problem . and then i i look at the user manual they are a hundred pages thick , so we do n't want that . project manager: yeah . user interface: so i propose the easy to use uh prototype . you can navigate on tv screen and we can the user 's preference and we need to have the tv connected to internet so we end in order to access the tv programmes by x_m_l_ and we need some to do some preprocessing . from the technical aspect , the processing should be done on the tv set than on the on the remote controller , right ? industrial designer: user interface: and then we the speech recognition as uh harry says we may just put in we may k_i_v_ . project manager: what do you mean by the pa pa processing will be done on the tv user interface: yeah , all the processing is done the tv is a compu has some processing power the project manager: than the industrial designer: so we have to t project manager: so we should have specific tv ? or ? we can use this . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we have to sell a tv with the remote control too . project manager: yeah , we do n't marketing: user interface: yeah because are you just wondering what controller okay . project manager: yeah , i think so . j j just the remote control . marketing: yeah , not the tvs . industrial designer: i think there there is there is al there there is a a technology like show view who is already available on most of the tv set on recorders or thing like that user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and we can try t to get this information on to the remote control to to do the processing on the remote control because user interface: okay . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . okay . marketing: yeah , that 's right . project manager: mm . user interface: so i the processing on on the remote controller project manager: yeah , user interface: so it can u be used in any tv , any conventional tv sets ? project manager: we . yeah . user interface: mm . okay . project manager: speech recognition . user interface: n yeah , that 's all . the next one ? so i come up with a simple design , just keep the v navigation buttons . industrial designer: yes , that 's a good idea , i think . project manager: keep the navigation industrial designer: we d we do n't we we do n't need really much buttons to i if we have a screen to navigate on on the tv so uh project manager: but user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: well , f four five buttons , it 's sufficient . user interface: yeah . mm . industrial designer: it 's easy to build , user interface: industrial designer: it does not consume much power . marketing: yeah , that 's right . project manager: . user interface: okay , that 's all . marketing: oh , but you have a catch there , um assume that um if you want to go to if you are watching channel two and if you want to go to channel ninety nine , then . user interface: industrial designer: well , then y you you go to the main menu and uh you have uh go to channel user interface: mm . industrial designer: and then uh you can user interface: mm . no , because you choose by channel , so you choose by tv program industrial designer: yeah . marketing: uh-huh huh huh huh . industrial designer: maybe you user interface: so you do n't have hundred channels to choose from . if you go by channel , you do n't have to do that . industrial designer: . marketing: mm-hmm hmm hmm . industrial designer: but uh i i think i i if you if you want to to make uh well a a big jump but uh well you you have to to have a a a device when you could you could marketing: but project manager: so you are user interface: ah . ah , a big jump . marketing: yeah then yeah that 's right . user interface: a mouse or industrial designer: well , not a mouse but uh something that that says more clearly that uh right , left , up , down , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: well , the to have the ability to to to write something to the navigator , maybe directly , or marketing: mm hmm hmm . okay . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so , marketing: okay . user interface: mm . industrial designer: we can think of buttons like in the telephone to send messages or things like that . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: how the this remote ? industrial designer: but we 'll see . user interface: uh it 's gon na be small . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , of course small . user interface: yeah . so it 'll beep if you wan na find it marketing: too small that it goes under the sofa and we ca n't find it . project manager: user interface: you just uh shout y h just it just has to re respond to you when you look for the device . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: marketing: that 's . user interface: i dunno how bu marketing: just give it a name and we call him . user interface: and responds to you , and industrial designer: marketing: yeah , that 's right . yeah , that 's right . industrial designer: okay , so uh next presentation user interface: project manager: participant four . so harry . marketing: okay , after having the inputs from industrial design and user interface , i think most of the points which i want to are already covered here . industrial designer: mm . user interface: marketing: and to find the most interesting features what the users would be interested , then what we have done is we have put a feedback forms in all the magazines , and the users send the feedbacks , and based on that these are the findings which we got and yeah adding of a speech interface is always good for a tv remote but the technology we already know that as discussed earlier industrial designer: well i i think it will be a , yes , a bit complicated to um make a speech recognisers runs on the small uh ts user interface: project manager: marketing: an it does how feasible it is . user interface: i- mm . but i think if you to recognise numbers it 's a well-studied problem . i if you just recognise uh numbers is a limited you have limited vocabulary marketing: oh we can put an limited vocabulary as in the mobile phones . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we just have the user interface: mm . industrial designer: and this can allow to choose the the program , for instance without uh adding uh buttons user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so it 's a good idea . marketing: it 's not going to take much space also . it 's going to be very slim . user interface: mm . mm . marketing: and next one was the size of the remote control . it has to be of course a very slim and small one . and of course most of the people are interested in if it 's less expensive , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm . marketing: so this is an important criteria here is user interface: but project manager: but do you think what they sug suggested s possibility . user interface: mm . marketing: i mean we have to look for a trade-off . user interface: yeah . marketing: the features and the cost . user interface: i no i i think that uh i if we go for quality people may tolerate for high quality and of course comes with uh reasonable cost . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . marketing: user interface: maybe not less , but they may be willing to pay little bit more for comfort , marketing: little bit more if it 's with extra features . project manager: it industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , extra features . industrial designer: yeah , s s speech is a important extra feature i think marketing: okay . user interface: mm . yeah . marketing: yeah , yeah . that 's right . project manager: but is it useful or not u i do n't know . industrial designer: well , uh project manager: there is in the marketing: i mean , for a lazy guys they could say nine and the nine channel comes . user interface: mm . industrial designer: marketing: or they say movie name or i do n't go for movie names but only for the numbers on the channel , or volume up , volume down , brightness , contrast . user interface: mm . project manager: mm . user interface: mm . marketing: so , i think this should be a good idea , to put this features . and the fourth one was the teletext in various languages . industrial designer: we we just have to find a mean how to to add a m a a a microphone or uh well yes a microphone into the the remote control , so marketing: mm , i think user interface: industrial designer: i well project manager: i think i industrial designer: it will be alright . marketing: project manager: if it 's necessary can you can do that . user interface: what is the teletext ? mm . project manager: we can integrate small microphone in the remote industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so it 's not really a problem . industrial designer: okay . project manager: what about lighting adaptive options ? marketing: yeah as discussed in the earlier meeting , but i think uh not much people are really interested in this point if it 's not really required . project manager: according to the re to the new requirements i think we do n't need that . yeah . user interface: it is interesting but we are only concerned with the remote controller . project manager: mm . user interface: so you need s special tv sets to do that ? or it 's it 's done via this remote controller ? it 's very complex . marketing: i mean industrial designer: yeah , i think it 's a bit complex too user interface: marketing: i mean yeah , it 's for the um industrial design and users interface designers to decide if it 's going to be working or not . user interface: mm . industrial designer: for our next product , our new tv set with uh automatical uh sound adjustment light marketing: i think project manager: user interface: yeah , then we can conclude that . yeah . yeah , but it 's quite possible but maybe not in this project . project manager: so we have i think we have s still we have couple of minutes . mm-mm . so any things to to discuss ? or any suggestions ? user interface: marketing: i think as i discussed th that four points would be good for um marketing . user interface: marketing: the speech interface and uh less uh reasonable uh cost . project manager: expensive . price . user interface: mm . marketing: and the lighting adaptation user interface: mm . marketing: and the teletext . and regarding the teletext uh these are the subtitl these are the text information which you got on the televisions . user interface: okay . marketing: if you are watching an foreign movie , you get subtitles sometimes . user interface: yeah . okay . marketing: and uh if you are a french guy watching an english movie you would like to have it in french . user interface: mm . industrial designer: . marketing: and if i am a german then i would like to have the my options in german . industrial designer: marketing: so , the remote it should have some it should give me some flexibility of choosing the ch languages . industrial designer: function . marketing: that should be a good uh point . industrial designer: yeah , but well what about the the new project 's requirement ? i i i think we should give up with teletext , no ? project manager: i think we we can we is the . industrial designer: yes . well , so maybe we we can j we can already think uh about a way to to access the internet via the television . user interface: mm . industrial designer: because if user interface: using the tv to access the internet ? or what ? i did n't quite understand industrial designer: yeah , but uh we can think that in a few years there will be tv set that can access the internet . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , okay . industrial designer: so it 's a good idea if i i if we i if if we uh think about how to to to build up our remote uh control w with this functionality in a w which will c which will come in a few years . marketing: we already have some . industrial designer: so if we already have it in our remote control project manager: so you have to anticipate the the future ? industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . the future demand , market demand . industrial designer: yeah , to desi marketing: yeah , that 's right . industrial designer: well , not not to implement it , but to well , to find a way to to add to add this functionality in a yeah , in an in an easy manner , if is possible . project manager: . user interface: the functionality in the future . project manager: in future . user interface: alright . yeah . because all the tv sets will be digital , right . all the programmes , everything will be in digital than analog . th the system will change and we have to anticipate for those change . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah , . industrial designer: okay . so project manager: okay . so let 's go for the the lunch break , and we will meet after . industrial designer: okay , thank you . user interface: okay . thank you . marketing: okay , thank you .

the team would design a speech recogniser in the remote control to help choose the program . it would be small . they would balance the features and the cost when designing it .

what did the team agree about lighting adaptive options when talking about the presentation which linked the project with market interests ? </s> project manager: so we come again for the the second meeting . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: uh for the aim of this meeting now is to to make presentation about uh the work for each one . user interface: project manager: and take the the decision about the the design and the functionality of the the remote control . user interface: okay . project manager: and we have think i got a new project requirement . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so i think uh teletext becomes outdated . so the popularity of the since the popularity of the internet , industrial designer: okay . project manager: and i think we do n't need lighting adaptive , so the remote control should be only used for the the television . and of course we should have our image in the in the design . so , let 's start with the the industrial designer . user interface: project manager: . user interface: industrial designer: yeah , alright . project manager: or y you can use the whiteboard if you want . industrial designer: so uh well i have a powerpoint pr presentation stored in my in my personal folder project manager: here . industrial designer: so i i i think you can reach it from here . marketing: just go to explorer . project manager: oh okay . marketing: or open . participant two . industrial designer: participant two . project manager: this one . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: open uh . industrial designer: uh open . project manager: do you want to open user interface: because it 's open you mean . project manager: industrial designer: right , so um i will talk about the the w working design and user interface: f_ five . marketing: slide show , view slide show , . project manager: ah . industrial designer: and um well i i will present my my first idea on how to build the our new remote control for television . user interface: industrial designer: so uh can you go one page down , please . so i think the first things to do is to define the hardware components neededs to achieve uh what we want to do . user interface: industrial designer: so uh mm i 'm thin uh i think uh i i 'll do a survey about what is uh what is available on the market and what what is the the cheapest possible things we hav we can use . then uh i will try with the technical team to to build a prototype and to see uh with uh h how this little box would uh look look like . user interface: industrial designer: and how an and we can uh start troubleshooting first uh com communication problems or things like that . user interface: industrial designer: and when we are ready with this first prototype i i think we can add some software functionalities on a programmable chip like browsing by content or um things like that . okay so can you go down uh so , wha what i think for now is we do n't want to have a remote control w which is wired user interface: project manager: industrial designer: so uh i think we u we can use a battery for the . then two programmable chips for both software functionalities and communication . and the communication with the tv set is uh made through uh infrared communication so uh this is the the schema of the o of the future uh remote controls user interface: did you draw it ? marketing: project manager: wow . industrial designer: so uh you can you can see the components , uh battery and uh the two chips goes to the infrared uh connection to the tv set . user interface: this . project manager: this user interface: what is the other chip for ? the one on top . industrial designer: the one on top is for the um well the functionali the functionalities user interface: marketing: one is a communication . industrial designer: and the the th red um sorry the green one is is to well , putting things together , um f transform the data into uh qu into the format to to uh to communicate with the tv set . user interface: for men . to the in okay . industrial designer: and , that 's it . i think we should use a f_p_g_a_ for for the functionalities which is easy to to t user interface: mm . what is f_p_g_a_ ? industrial designer: it 's field programmable uh something array . marketing: gateway arrays . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it 's a field programmable gateway arrays . user interface: so why 's it how is it different from the bluetooth ? industrial designer: well , uh a f_p_g_a_ is just a chip you can uh you can pr programme it uh wi with wh whatever you want . user interface: yeah . programme it . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . industrial designer: and uh well the bluetooth chip is just responsible to uh make the communication uh between uh the two devices . user interface: yeah . uh so this are the they have to work together ? or ? do they have to work together or two separate choice industrial designer: no . well , th the f_p_g_a_ will produce the the data to send . user interface: okay . marketing: or it 's something like is n't hardware the first one ? and the second one is for the software . user interface: is the is the software par alri okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah to run th to make it run . user interface: okay , okay . marketing: that 's it . user interface: so you can control if you want , right ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: no . industrial designer: alright and that 's it for the working design . user interface: industrial designer: so if you have any questions ? user interface: mm . marketing: okay , and how about the battery power ? uh you mean that battery would be somewhere there and the remote contro the power to the battery comes through infrared ? industrial designer: uh no no no no , i think uh we have uh to to uh have uh embedded uh b batteries in in the project manager: . marketing: into the industrial designer: yeah into the t . marketing: more compact and uh okay , industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: industrial designer: and uh i i do n't think it will need um very uh much power to make it run , so user interface: mm . mm . marketing: yeah , yeah . okay . user interface: mm . you can put it on the charger when uh you when you do n't need to use it . industrial designer: yeah . it 's a good idea . marketing: yeah , that 's right . user interface: yeah . marketing: having a charger rather than putting the battery cells always . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: people do n't like it to have to buy the batteries when they run out . user interface: yeah . mm . uh mm . marketing: we just make a small charger user interface: y yeah , yeah . marketing: and put it project manager: you can i yeah . user interface: because you are using because you are using bluetooth , if some people have p_d_a_ they can use their p_d_a_ to control the tv if they want to , right ? industrial designer: that 's a good idea . marketing: project manager: ma industrial designer: also , but but i i i think uh the the goal is to sell our remote control . project manager: user interface: i dunno . marketing: bu project manager: yeah we can change the b . marketing: our remote , project manager: yeah . marketing: we do not want to make it p_d_a_ . user interface: industrial designer: s okay , so charger for is the . project manager: um . user interface: so is mine . project manager: it 's mine . participant one , no ? user interface: oh . yeah , this your project manager: mm . oh we have so let 's move to to user interface design . user interface: yeah . so you can open uh project manager: participant user interface: three . yeah . so so i 'm working on the technical functions design . can you show the next slide . so the the purpose is to to find uh the important questions to ask is what effect should the apparatus have . so so i found on a webs on the internet project manager: during the weekend . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . i spent a lot of time searching industrial designer: project manager: that 's good . user interface: and uh and i found that uh the function of remote control is to send messages to television set . industrial designer: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: for example switch on , switch off , switch the next channel and so on and so on . marketing: g user interface: so i found two very good prototypes for for this interface from our competitors industrial designer: user interface: so can you industrial designer: project manager: this are usual functionality . user interface: yeah , yeah , yeah . ours is a bit uh different . so these are two example . one is from the other one is from , yeah , uh engineering centr yeah . project manager: tasks . industrial designer: user interface: this is the most competing prototypes i 've found . industrial designer: user interface: but then uh loo but then i found if you look at you see on the left one there are too many buttons industrial designer: project manager: and they are small . user interface: yeah . o on the right i tried to play with the problem is that uh if i have hundred channels i have uh i have to choo press the other button to choose the hundred channels and i have to compose the number industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so it 's very lousy . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so you so you move to the next the next one . industrial designer: of course . user interface: yeah , so i talk about the problem . and then i i look at the user manual they are a hundred pages thick , so we do n't want that . project manager: yeah . user interface: so i propose the easy to use uh prototype . you can navigate on tv screen and we can the user 's preference and we need to have the tv connected to internet so we end in order to access the tv programmes by x_m_l_ and we need some to do some preprocessing . from the technical aspect , the processing should be done on the tv set than on the on the remote controller , right ? industrial designer: user interface: and then we the speech recognition as uh harry says we may just put in we may k_i_v_ . project manager: what do you mean by the pa pa processing will be done on the tv user interface: yeah , all the processing is done the tv is a compu has some processing power the project manager: than the industrial designer: so we have to t project manager: so we should have specific tv ? or ? we can use this . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we have to sell a tv with the remote control too . project manager: yeah , we do n't marketing: user interface: yeah because are you just wondering what controller okay . project manager: yeah , i think so . j j just the remote control . marketing: yeah , not the tvs . industrial designer: i think there there is there is al there there is a a technology like show view who is already available on most of the tv set on recorders or thing like that user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and we can try t to get this information on to the remote control to to do the processing on the remote control because user interface: okay . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . okay . marketing: yeah , that 's right . project manager: mm . user interface: so i the processing on on the remote controller project manager: yeah , user interface: so it can u be used in any tv , any conventional tv sets ? project manager: we . yeah . user interface: mm . okay . project manager: speech recognition . user interface: n yeah , that 's all . the next one ? so i come up with a simple design , just keep the v navigation buttons . industrial designer: yes , that 's a good idea , i think . project manager: keep the navigation industrial designer: we d we do n't we we do n't need really much buttons to i if we have a screen to navigate on on the tv so uh project manager: but user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: well , f four five buttons , it 's sufficient . user interface: yeah . mm . industrial designer: it 's easy to build , user interface: industrial designer: it does not consume much power . marketing: yeah , that 's right . project manager: . user interface: okay , that 's all . marketing: oh , but you have a catch there , um assume that um if you want to go to if you are watching channel two and if you want to go to channel ninety nine , then . user interface: industrial designer: well , then y you you go to the main menu and uh you have uh go to channel user interface: mm . industrial designer: and then uh you can user interface: mm . no , because you choose by channel , so you choose by tv program industrial designer: yeah . marketing: uh-huh huh huh huh . industrial designer: maybe you user interface: so you do n't have hundred channels to choose from . if you go by channel , you do n't have to do that . industrial designer: . marketing: mm-hmm hmm hmm . industrial designer: but uh i i think i i if you if you want to to make uh well a a big jump but uh well you you have to to have a a a device when you could you could marketing: but project manager: so you are user interface: ah . ah , a big jump . marketing: yeah then yeah that 's right . user interface: a mouse or industrial designer: well , not a mouse but uh something that that says more clearly that uh right , left , up , down , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: well , the to have the ability to to to write something to the navigator , maybe directly , or marketing: mm hmm hmm . okay . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so , marketing: okay . user interface: mm . industrial designer: we can think of buttons like in the telephone to send messages or things like that . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: how the this remote ? industrial designer: but we 'll see . user interface: uh it 's gon na be small . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , of course small . user interface: yeah . so it 'll beep if you wan na find it marketing: too small that it goes under the sofa and we ca n't find it . project manager: user interface: you just uh shout y h just it just has to re respond to you when you look for the device . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: marketing: that 's . user interface: i dunno how bu marketing: just give it a name and we call him . user interface: and responds to you , and industrial designer: marketing: yeah , that 's right . yeah , that 's right . industrial designer: okay , so uh next presentation user interface: project manager: participant four . so harry . marketing: okay , after having the inputs from industrial design and user interface , i think most of the points which i want to are already covered here . industrial designer: mm . user interface: marketing: and to find the most interesting features what the users would be interested , then what we have done is we have put a feedback forms in all the magazines , and the users send the feedbacks , and based on that these are the findings which we got and yeah adding of a speech interface is always good for a tv remote but the technology we already know that as discussed earlier industrial designer: well i i think it will be a , yes , a bit complicated to um make a speech recognisers runs on the small uh ts user interface: project manager: marketing: an it does how feasible it is . user interface: i- mm . but i think if you to recognise numbers it 's a well-studied problem . i if you just recognise uh numbers is a limited you have limited vocabulary marketing: oh we can put an limited vocabulary as in the mobile phones . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we just have the user interface: mm . industrial designer: and this can allow to choose the the program , for instance without uh adding uh buttons user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so it 's a good idea . marketing: it 's not going to take much space also . it 's going to be very slim . user interface: mm . mm . marketing: and next one was the size of the remote control . it has to be of course a very slim and small one . and of course most of the people are interested in if it 's less expensive , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm . marketing: so this is an important criteria here is user interface: but project manager: but do you think what they sug suggested s possibility . user interface: mm . marketing: i mean we have to look for a trade-off . user interface: yeah . marketing: the features and the cost . user interface: i no i i think that uh i if we go for quality people may tolerate for high quality and of course comes with uh reasonable cost . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . marketing: user interface: maybe not less , but they may be willing to pay little bit more for comfort , marketing: little bit more if it 's with extra features . project manager: it industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , extra features . industrial designer: yeah , s s speech is a important extra feature i think marketing: okay . user interface: mm . yeah . marketing: yeah , yeah . that 's right . project manager: but is it useful or not u i do n't know . industrial designer: well , uh project manager: there is in the marketing: i mean , for a lazy guys they could say nine and the nine channel comes . user interface: mm . industrial designer: marketing: or they say movie name or i do n't go for movie names but only for the numbers on the channel , or volume up , volume down , brightness , contrast . user interface: mm . project manager: mm . user interface: mm . marketing: so , i think this should be a good idea , to put this features . and the fourth one was the teletext in various languages . industrial designer: we we just have to find a mean how to to add a m a a a microphone or uh well yes a microphone into the the remote control , so marketing: mm , i think user interface: industrial designer: i well project manager: i think i industrial designer: it will be alright . marketing: project manager: if it 's necessary can you can do that . user interface: what is the teletext ? mm . project manager: we can integrate small microphone in the remote industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so it 's not really a problem . industrial designer: okay . project manager: what about lighting adaptive options ? marketing: yeah as discussed in the earlier meeting , but i think uh not much people are really interested in this point if it 's not really required . project manager: according to the re to the new requirements i think we do n't need that . yeah . user interface: it is interesting but we are only concerned with the remote controller . project manager: mm . user interface: so you need s special tv sets to do that ? or it 's it 's done via this remote controller ? it 's very complex . marketing: i mean industrial designer: yeah , i think it 's a bit complex too user interface: marketing: i mean yeah , it 's for the um industrial design and users interface designers to decide if it 's going to be working or not . user interface: mm . industrial designer: for our next product , our new tv set with uh automatical uh sound adjustment light marketing: i think project manager: user interface: yeah , then we can conclude that . yeah . yeah , but it 's quite possible but maybe not in this project . project manager: so we have i think we have s still we have couple of minutes . mm-mm . so any things to to discuss ? or any suggestions ? user interface: marketing: i think as i discussed th that four points would be good for um marketing . user interface: marketing: the speech interface and uh less uh reasonable uh cost . project manager: expensive . price . user interface: mm . marketing: and the lighting adaptation user interface: mm . marketing: and the teletext . and regarding the teletext uh these are the subtitl these are the text information which you got on the televisions . user interface: okay . marketing: if you are watching an foreign movie , you get subtitles sometimes . user interface: yeah . okay . marketing: and uh if you are a french guy watching an english movie you would like to have it in french . user interface: mm . industrial designer: . marketing: and if i am a german then i would like to have the my options in german . industrial designer: marketing: so , the remote it should have some it should give me some flexibility of choosing the ch languages . industrial designer: function . marketing: that should be a good uh point . industrial designer: yeah , but well what about the the new project 's requirement ? i i i think we should give up with teletext , no ? project manager: i think we we can we is the . industrial designer: yes . well , so maybe we we can j we can already think uh about a way to to access the internet via the television . user interface: mm . industrial designer: because if user interface: using the tv to access the internet ? or what ? i did n't quite understand industrial designer: yeah , but uh we can think that in a few years there will be tv set that can access the internet . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , okay . industrial designer: so it 's a good idea if i i if we i if if we uh think about how to to to build up our remote uh control w with this functionality in a w which will c which will come in a few years . marketing: we already have some . industrial designer: so if we already have it in our remote control project manager: so you have to anticipate the the future ? industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . the future demand , market demand . industrial designer: yeah , to desi marketing: yeah , that 's right . industrial designer: well , not not to implement it , but to well , to find a way to to add to add this functionality in a yeah , in an in an easy manner , if is possible . project manager: . user interface: the functionality in the future . project manager: in future . user interface: alright . yeah . because all the tv sets will be digital , right . all the programmes , everything will be in digital than analog . th the system will change and we have to anticipate for those change . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah , . industrial designer: okay . so project manager: okay . so let 's go for the the lunch break , and we will meet after . industrial designer: okay , thank you . user interface: okay . thank you . marketing: okay , thank you .

lighting adaptive was a little bit complex . it was possible but not in this project .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> user interface: hmm . industrial designer: project manager: good morning everybody . industrial designer: good morning . project manager: user interface: good morning . marketing: good morning . project manager: so , we are asked to to make uh uh a new remote control for television . and the characteristics of this new remote control should be original and trendy and of course user user friendly . so people can can use it without any any problem . user interface: project manager: . industrial designer: project manager: i do n't know . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: well , i think we should set the the points to to drive the project and uh user interface: mm . b did you send us an email about this ? project manager: uh , not yet , user interface: industrial designer: project manager: but if you want user interface: yeah , we we received an email about this uh d designs . project manager: do you want do you want me to send you a mail ? industrial designer: user interface: ah it 's okay . project manager: or industrial designer: marketing: or you can put it in the shared folder . user interface: yeah , you see the email ? you email . the v very no , no the first one . marketing: no , i did n't get it . user interface: it 's inside . project manager: uh marketing: this one . user interface: no , no . marketing: no . user interface: the third one . oh , you did n't get anything . marketing: no , . user interface: it 's strange . mm . project manager: . user interface: i got an email about the dis about the discussion . yeah . project manager: you get email , . user interface: i dunno from who . industrial designer: yeah , from the account manager . marketing: user interface: from the account manager . you have received the same email , right ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: i think it 's for your guys to how to design it all the aspects so you need that information . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i think so . user interface: yeah , so each of us has a role to do . marketing: yeah project manager: s marketing: i think assign your uh roles . user interface: in each project manager: for each for each one . user interface: we already have our role . marketing: for each person , yeah . user interface: 'kay , we can project manager: so there are so we have three user interface: so there are three kinds of designs , that 's all . project manager: f yeah . we have functional design , conceptual design , and detail design . user interface: okay , alright . project manager: so , who will be the the responsible for the functional design ? any any volunteer ? industrial designer: i think our uh responsibilities will be assigned when we in our mail we received from the account manager . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: uh user interface: i 'm doing the interface . project manager: you are doing th industrial designer: no , i 'm doing the interface . project manager: . user interface: are you using the you are doing the in industrial designer: yeah i i 'm i 'm well , maybe we have okay so i industrial design . it was a little confusion about my uh project manager: user interface: ah industrial designer: but it 's alright . project manager: okay , i 'll for industrial design . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . and and you norman ? user interface: mm ? um working on i . user interface . industrial designer: user . project manager: and and marketing: uh , i 'm into marketing . project manager: doing the marketing . marketing: yeah nothing much in the project . project manager: nothing related here to the marketing: marketing in this design . user interface: yes . marketing: a design is basically for industrial design and the user interface . project manager: user interface: you see the second mail ? yeah , it 's inside . go down . appendix . marketing: yeah , this is . user interface: see there 's a role for everybody . marketing: yeah , that 's right , user interface: even for the marketing . marketing: first . us user define . project manager: next . user interface: but look at your role , your marketing role . marketing: there 's a trend watching . project manager: i do n't know . user interface: yeah , that 's your role . project manager: i . industrial designer: well , i think we can have a little discussion about what has to be done project manager: industrial designer: and what are your ideas about the project manager: about the design or maybe we 'll discuss this later , no ? industrial designer: well , w we want to have a new re remote control for for tv distribution i guess . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so we have to plan how how it would be developed and uh user interface: mm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: how we can make it work . user interface: yes . marketing: i mean working remotes we already have . this will be something different from the other remotes remote controls . industrial designer: project manager: what we we have to keep in mind the these characteristics . industrial designer: yeah , i dunno i project manager: and of course it should not be very costly . marketing: yeah , that 's right . project manager: so industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well i i think that norman and i would think about um the technical points and um we should discuss it in the next meeting , or user interface: need to collect information . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: about the about what ? user interface: um . i i 'm part of design , perhaps . uh , what is most important in a in a remote control ? what is the most important function aspect ? uh . project manager: you mean the external or industrial designer: well , you have to make it work . project manager: yeah of g of course . user interface: that 's alright . industrial designer: that 's the that 's the big thing . project manager: user interface: yeah , it should be easy to work with . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we can think about an interface with uh well user interface: uh . we maybe you can have a speech uh recognition interface . you just tell the television i want which channel . project manager: you wo n't user interface: or or you can say for example , um i want uh to list all the programme tonight . y you know , instead of uh remote control it 's doing the some searching for you , so you do n't have to look for the channel you want . just say maybe i just want to press i wan na have a button for all the movies tonight . or a button for all the magazines , all the information documentary tonight . and then you list a few , and i will choose from the list . so instead of pressing the channel number , i am choosing the programmes directly . yeah , that 's one way of uh making it useful . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: i i think if we include a lot of technology on the remote control it will be very costly . user interface: no , because no , project manager: s user interface: it 's not very a lot . th this information exists . for example you can get um project manager: like s uh you you you say we can use speech . user interface: you can use uh well for example anything . the the idea of using speech to reduce the button , but uh and it 's more natural . yeah . industrial designer: i i think if you want t to choose uh from a list of programme or or something like that you you may have to to use uh w uh i dunno marketing: i 'm a okay . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: i mean the main uh function of remote control is to have something in the hand project manager: in the hand . marketing: and we should be very careful about the size of the remote control . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: if we are going to add a speech interface , i 'm not sure with trendy slim size of the remote control it would be able to put a speech recog user interface: yeah . yes , possible . marketing: if you want to put a speech recognition system f interface for that i think the tv itself could have it . user interface: yeah . but industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and i could talk to the tv television itself . project manager: except if if you are far from the tv . marketing: i need not have an user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: i mean we have some or something , different technology but project manager: this is it 's user interface: yeah , yeah . but th the main idea i wanted to s i wanted to say is that um there should be a function , instead of choosing the ch tv channel , there 's a option you can choose , either tv channels or or pr or the or the contain or the contents of the programme . industrial designer: on the content . marketing: mm-hmm , yeah . industrial designer: yeah , yeah it 's it 's a good idea it 's a good idea project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so it 's more powerful . yeah . industrial designer: but i i think that technically it would be um a little bit uh uh more tricky to to achieve this than just to user interface: no . no , because you see now all the tv programmes are available on the webs . they they are they are they are available in x_m_l_ format or whatever the format . we do n't care . we just say that this are some content . we just want to retrieve the content and then classi sort them by the types of programmes . some of the websites they already provide this service , industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: so we can just use the service available . download it uh to the to this remote control . project manager: mm . user interface: and then there 's there are only six buttons for six categories , or sev seven . the most there are only seven buttons . so i just choose the category one and you reuse the same button , for example to to choose among the the sorted list the programme you want , so you do n't have to choose among hundred channels , if you have hundred channels , you just have six buttons , seven buttons . project manager: yeah we should also optimise the the number of buttons . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: well i i i i think that j just by using navigation buttons and the user interface on the screen we are able to uh navigate uh through the well channel programme or contents or in an easy way , so project manager: this is good idea . user interface: yeah . ah , yes . so . yeah . yeah , so you do n't have to display here , just display on the tv screen , right ? industrial designer: yeah in the dis display on the tv screen user interface: good idea . okay . industrial designer: and just uh with the with your remote control would just navigate through the f user interface: i think i think that will be revol revolutionary . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: because all the tv uh the the remote control have all numbers , lots of buttons and then you dunno what to choose in the end . yeah . alright . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . so i think for for the technical points we have to to to check how to gather the data from programme or contents and all this stuff user interface: okay . project manager: so we have five minutes to user interface: ah w w we have sometimes to use the white-board . project manager: ah you can y you can you can use it if you so , can we industrial designer: user interface: five minutes . marketing: and another interesting idea for this would be to have an light adaptation system depending upon the picture of user interface: okay . okay . marketing: so , i mean , if you 're watching a movie and suddenly there is a dark uh some dark scene , the lights adapt themself . user interface: yeah . project manager: s user interface: yeah . marketing: the lighting in the room changes . industrial designer: user interface: yeah , but we are designing just remote control . project manager: you it . marketing: i mean , we have a option in the remote control . if we want to have that option , you press that button in the remote . user interface: okay . industrial designer: oh right so user interface: okay , do you want to have a conceptual remote control there , or you just want to put the function in ? project manager: yeah . if if you you you can if you want you can use th the . industrial designer: please , norman , draw uh user interface: go on , draw something . mm . marketing: oh , i 'm afraid you forgot to put your lapel . user interface: where is it ? marketing: the lapel . project manager: or before the before the the design that says . user interface: ah , okay . industrial designer: user interface: where where is it ? here . marketing: yeah , that one . project manager: norman . marketing: just plug it . user interface: mm . marketing: yeah , that 's right . project manager: be before before writing you can uh sit and that says what we what we said user interface: mm . project manager: then after that you can you can use the . yeah . user interface: okay , alright . so so the most functional des mm the most important function is to ch choo buttons to choose the content . right ? we agree on that , right ? industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay . user interface: uh , uh first one is to uh buttons i or it could be anything with buttons . uh to choose uh content s or channels . project manager: yeah . user interface: so we have both . the user can choose w which one they want , right ? industrial designer: yeah , by content or by channel , user interface: by content or by channel . industrial designer: it 's a good idea . user interface: choose by contents or by channels . and then what did we say just now ? other than this . project manager: mm . industrial designer: and uh we we have to find a way how to gather information about the contents . user interface: okay , so technically how the problems that how to do it is to how to get the content . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: challenge . industrial designer: i think i it 's not very difficult to to browse by channel but it 's a little bit tricky to browse by contents so user interface: okay . content . okay , so these we have to work it out . so this one of the problem . and uh industrial designer: i think that 's the the things to do user interface: the main thing . industrial designer: and uh to uh reflect about it user interface: okay . alright . alright , okay . industrial designer: and uh discuss it in the next meeting . user interface: so we are we 'll discuss it we will get some information in the next meeting , so for now we get uh the funct this is the functional designer ? that 's the first aspect . right . we will get information and then we 'll come back in . . industrial designer: okay . thank you everybody . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah , we 'll come . project manager: so maybe we 'll meet in maybe five minutes ? and we 'll discuss the other other aspects . user interface: alright . alright , okay . industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay . well thank you all . user interface: thank you , mis { vocalsound }

project manager introduced a new remote control project for television . at first , team members got their roles . then they discussed what had to be done to design a remote control which had different features . priority will be given to the functions . for example , team members hoped that users could choose what they want not by channels but by contents . to implement the functions , they discussed a lot , such as speech recognition interface and navigation buttons .

what was the main idea of user interface when talking about the functions and why ? </s> user interface: hmm . industrial designer: project manager: good morning everybody . industrial designer: good morning . project manager: user interface: good morning . marketing: good morning . project manager: so , we are asked to to make uh uh a new remote control for television . and the characteristics of this new remote control should be original and trendy and of course user user friendly . so people can can use it without any any problem . user interface: project manager: . industrial designer: project manager: i do n't know . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: well , i think we should set the the points to to drive the project and uh user interface: mm . b did you send us an email about this ? project manager: uh , not yet , user interface: industrial designer: project manager: but if you want user interface: yeah , we we received an email about this uh d designs . project manager: do you want do you want me to send you a mail ? industrial designer: user interface: ah it 's okay . project manager: or industrial designer: marketing: or you can put it in the shared folder . user interface: yeah , you see the email ? you email . the v very no , no the first one . marketing: no , i did n't get it . user interface: it 's inside . project manager: uh marketing: this one . user interface: no , no . marketing: no . user interface: the third one . oh , you did n't get anything . marketing: no , . user interface: it 's strange . mm . project manager: . user interface: i got an email about the dis about the discussion . yeah . project manager: you get email , . user interface: i dunno from who . industrial designer: yeah , from the account manager . marketing: user interface: from the account manager . you have received the same email , right ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: i think it 's for your guys to how to design it all the aspects so you need that information . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i think so . user interface: yeah , so each of us has a role to do . marketing: yeah project manager: s marketing: i think assign your uh roles . user interface: in each project manager: for each for each one . user interface: we already have our role . marketing: for each person , yeah . user interface: 'kay , we can project manager: so there are so we have three user interface: so there are three kinds of designs , that 's all . project manager: f yeah . we have functional design , conceptual design , and detail design . user interface: okay , alright . project manager: so , who will be the the responsible for the functional design ? any any volunteer ? industrial designer: i think our uh responsibilities will be assigned when we in our mail we received from the account manager . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: uh user interface: i 'm doing the interface . project manager: you are doing th industrial designer: no , i 'm doing the interface . project manager: . user interface: are you using the you are doing the in industrial designer: yeah i i 'm i 'm well , maybe we have okay so i industrial design . it was a little confusion about my uh project manager: user interface: ah industrial designer: but it 's alright . project manager: okay , i 'll for industrial design . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . and and you norman ? user interface: mm ? um working on i . user interface . industrial designer: user . project manager: and and marketing: uh , i 'm into marketing . project manager: doing the marketing . marketing: yeah nothing much in the project . project manager: nothing related here to the marketing: marketing in this design . user interface: yes . marketing: a design is basically for industrial design and the user interface . project manager: user interface: you see the second mail ? yeah , it 's inside . go down . appendix . marketing: yeah , this is . user interface: see there 's a role for everybody . marketing: yeah , that 's right , user interface: even for the marketing . marketing: first . us user define . project manager: next . user interface: but look at your role , your marketing role . marketing: there 's a trend watching . project manager: i do n't know . user interface: yeah , that 's your role . project manager: i . industrial designer: well , i think we can have a little discussion about what has to be done project manager: industrial designer: and what are your ideas about the project manager: about the design or maybe we 'll discuss this later , no ? industrial designer: well , w we want to have a new re remote control for for tv distribution i guess . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so we have to plan how how it would be developed and uh user interface: mm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: how we can make it work . user interface: yes . marketing: i mean working remotes we already have . this will be something different from the other remotes remote controls . industrial designer: project manager: what we we have to keep in mind the these characteristics . industrial designer: yeah , i dunno i project manager: and of course it should not be very costly . marketing: yeah , that 's right . project manager: so industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well i i think that norman and i would think about um the technical points and um we should discuss it in the next meeting , or user interface: need to collect information . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: about the about what ? user interface: um . i i 'm part of design , perhaps . uh , what is most important in a in a remote control ? what is the most important function aspect ? uh . project manager: you mean the external or industrial designer: well , you have to make it work . project manager: yeah of g of course . user interface: that 's alright . industrial designer: that 's the that 's the big thing . project manager: user interface: yeah , it should be easy to work with . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we can think about an interface with uh well user interface: uh . we maybe you can have a speech uh recognition interface . you just tell the television i want which channel . project manager: you wo n't user interface: or or you can say for example , um i want uh to list all the programme tonight . y you know , instead of uh remote control it 's doing the some searching for you , so you do n't have to look for the channel you want . just say maybe i just want to press i wan na have a button for all the movies tonight . or a button for all the magazines , all the information documentary tonight . and then you list a few , and i will choose from the list . so instead of pressing the channel number , i am choosing the programmes directly . yeah , that 's one way of uh making it useful . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: i i think if we include a lot of technology on the remote control it will be very costly . user interface: no , because no , project manager: s user interface: it 's not very a lot . th this information exists . for example you can get um project manager: like s uh you you you say we can use speech . user interface: you can use uh well for example anything . the the idea of using speech to reduce the button , but uh and it 's more natural . yeah . industrial designer: i i think if you want t to choose uh from a list of programme or or something like that you you may have to to use uh w uh i dunno marketing: i 'm a okay . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: i mean the main uh function of remote control is to have something in the hand project manager: in the hand . marketing: and we should be very careful about the size of the remote control . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: if we are going to add a speech interface , i 'm not sure with trendy slim size of the remote control it would be able to put a speech recog user interface: yeah . yes , possible . marketing: if you want to put a speech recognition system f interface for that i think the tv itself could have it . user interface: yeah . but industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and i could talk to the tv television itself . project manager: except if if you are far from the tv . marketing: i need not have an user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: i mean we have some or something , different technology but project manager: this is it 's user interface: yeah , yeah . but th the main idea i wanted to s i wanted to say is that um there should be a function , instead of choosing the ch tv channel , there 's a option you can choose , either tv channels or or pr or the or the contain or the contents of the programme . industrial designer: on the content . marketing: mm-hmm , yeah . industrial designer: yeah , yeah it 's it 's a good idea it 's a good idea project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so it 's more powerful . yeah . industrial designer: but i i think that technically it would be um a little bit uh uh more tricky to to achieve this than just to user interface: no . no , because you see now all the tv programmes are available on the webs . they they are they are they are available in x_m_l_ format or whatever the format . we do n't care . we just say that this are some content . we just want to retrieve the content and then classi sort them by the types of programmes . some of the websites they already provide this service , industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: so we can just use the service available . download it uh to the to this remote control . project manager: mm . user interface: and then there 's there are only six buttons for six categories , or sev seven . the most there are only seven buttons . so i just choose the category one and you reuse the same button , for example to to choose among the the sorted list the programme you want , so you do n't have to choose among hundred channels , if you have hundred channels , you just have six buttons , seven buttons . project manager: yeah we should also optimise the the number of buttons . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: well i i i i think that j just by using navigation buttons and the user interface on the screen we are able to uh navigate uh through the well channel programme or contents or in an easy way , so project manager: this is good idea . user interface: yeah . ah , yes . so . yeah . yeah , so you do n't have to display here , just display on the tv screen , right ? industrial designer: yeah in the dis display on the tv screen user interface: good idea . okay . industrial designer: and just uh with the with your remote control would just navigate through the f user interface: i think i think that will be revol revolutionary . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: because all the tv uh the the remote control have all numbers , lots of buttons and then you dunno what to choose in the end . yeah . alright . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . so i think for for the technical points we have to to to check how to gather the data from programme or contents and all this stuff user interface: okay . project manager: so we have five minutes to user interface: ah w w we have sometimes to use the white-board . project manager: ah you can y you can you can use it if you so , can we industrial designer: user interface: five minutes . marketing: and another interesting idea for this would be to have an light adaptation system depending upon the picture of user interface: okay . okay . marketing: so , i mean , if you 're watching a movie and suddenly there is a dark uh some dark scene , the lights adapt themself . user interface: yeah . project manager: s user interface: yeah . marketing: the lighting in the room changes . industrial designer: user interface: yeah , but we are designing just remote control . project manager: you it . marketing: i mean , we have a option in the remote control . if we want to have that option , you press that button in the remote . user interface: okay . industrial designer: oh right so user interface: okay , do you want to have a conceptual remote control there , or you just want to put the function in ? project manager: yeah . if if you you you can if you want you can use th the . industrial designer: please , norman , draw uh user interface: go on , draw something . mm . marketing: oh , i 'm afraid you forgot to put your lapel . user interface: where is it ? marketing: the lapel . project manager: or before the before the the design that says . user interface: ah , okay . industrial designer: user interface: where where is it ? here . marketing: yeah , that one . project manager: norman . marketing: just plug it . user interface: mm . marketing: yeah , that 's right . project manager: be before before writing you can uh sit and that says what we what we said user interface: mm . project manager: then after that you can you can use the . yeah . user interface: okay , alright . so so the most functional des mm the most important function is to ch choo buttons to choose the content . right ? we agree on that , right ? industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay . user interface: uh , uh first one is to uh buttons i or it could be anything with buttons . uh to choose uh content s or channels . project manager: yeah . user interface: so we have both . the user can choose w which one they want , right ? industrial designer: yeah , by content or by channel , user interface: by content or by channel . industrial designer: it 's a good idea . user interface: choose by contents or by channels . and then what did we say just now ? other than this . project manager: mm . industrial designer: and uh we we have to find a way how to gather information about the contents . user interface: okay , so technically how the problems that how to do it is to how to get the content . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: challenge . industrial designer: i think i it 's not very difficult to to browse by channel but it 's a little bit tricky to browse by contents so user interface: okay . content . okay , so these we have to work it out . so this one of the problem . and uh industrial designer: i think that 's the the things to do user interface: the main thing . industrial designer: and uh to uh reflect about it user interface: okay . alright . alright , okay . industrial designer: and uh discuss it in the next meeting . user interface: so we are we 'll discuss it we will get some information in the next meeting , so for now we get uh the funct this is the functional designer ? that 's the first aspect . right . we will get information and then we 'll come back in . . industrial designer: okay . thank you everybody . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah , we 'll come . project manager: so maybe we 'll meet in maybe five minutes ? and we 'll discuss the other other aspects . user interface: alright . alright , okay . industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay . well thank you all . user interface: thank you , mis { vocalsound }

user interface thought there should be a function , instead of choosing the tv channel , users could choose tv channels or the contents of the programme . it was more powerful . some of the websites already provide this service so this technology is also available .

why did user interface recommend a speech recognition interface when discussing the functions ? </s> user interface: hmm . industrial designer: project manager: good morning everybody . industrial designer: good morning . project manager: user interface: good morning . marketing: good morning . project manager: so , we are asked to to make uh uh a new remote control for television . and the characteristics of this new remote control should be original and trendy and of course user user friendly . so people can can use it without any any problem . user interface: project manager: . industrial designer: project manager: i do n't know . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: well , i think we should set the the points to to drive the project and uh user interface: mm . b did you send us an email about this ? project manager: uh , not yet , user interface: industrial designer: project manager: but if you want user interface: yeah , we we received an email about this uh d designs . project manager: do you want do you want me to send you a mail ? industrial designer: user interface: ah it 's okay . project manager: or industrial designer: marketing: or you can put it in the shared folder . user interface: yeah , you see the email ? you email . the v very no , no the first one . marketing: no , i did n't get it . user interface: it 's inside . project manager: uh marketing: this one . user interface: no , no . marketing: no . user interface: the third one . oh , you did n't get anything . marketing: no , . user interface: it 's strange . mm . project manager: . user interface: i got an email about the dis about the discussion . yeah . project manager: you get email , . user interface: i dunno from who . industrial designer: yeah , from the account manager . marketing: user interface: from the account manager . you have received the same email , right ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: i think it 's for your guys to how to design it all the aspects so you need that information . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i think so . user interface: yeah , so each of us has a role to do . marketing: yeah project manager: s marketing: i think assign your uh roles . user interface: in each project manager: for each for each one . user interface: we already have our role . marketing: for each person , yeah . user interface: 'kay , we can project manager: so there are so we have three user interface: so there are three kinds of designs , that 's all . project manager: f yeah . we have functional design , conceptual design , and detail design . user interface: okay , alright . project manager: so , who will be the the responsible for the functional design ? any any volunteer ? industrial designer: i think our uh responsibilities will be assigned when we in our mail we received from the account manager . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: uh user interface: i 'm doing the interface . project manager: you are doing th industrial designer: no , i 'm doing the interface . project manager: . user interface: are you using the you are doing the in industrial designer: yeah i i 'm i 'm well , maybe we have okay so i industrial design . it was a little confusion about my uh project manager: user interface: ah industrial designer: but it 's alright . project manager: okay , i 'll for industrial design . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . and and you norman ? user interface: mm ? um working on i . user interface . industrial designer: user . project manager: and and marketing: uh , i 'm into marketing . project manager: doing the marketing . marketing: yeah nothing much in the project . project manager: nothing related here to the marketing: marketing in this design . user interface: yes . marketing: a design is basically for industrial design and the user interface . project manager: user interface: you see the second mail ? yeah , it 's inside . go down . appendix . marketing: yeah , this is . user interface: see there 's a role for everybody . marketing: yeah , that 's right , user interface: even for the marketing . marketing: first . us user define . project manager: next . user interface: but look at your role , your marketing role . marketing: there 's a trend watching . project manager: i do n't know . user interface: yeah , that 's your role . project manager: i . industrial designer: well , i think we can have a little discussion about what has to be done project manager: industrial designer: and what are your ideas about the project manager: about the design or maybe we 'll discuss this later , no ? industrial designer: well , w we want to have a new re remote control for for tv distribution i guess . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so we have to plan how how it would be developed and uh user interface: mm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: how we can make it work . user interface: yes . marketing: i mean working remotes we already have . this will be something different from the other remotes remote controls . industrial designer: project manager: what we we have to keep in mind the these characteristics . industrial designer: yeah , i dunno i project manager: and of course it should not be very costly . marketing: yeah , that 's right . project manager: so industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well i i think that norman and i would think about um the technical points and um we should discuss it in the next meeting , or user interface: need to collect information . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: about the about what ? user interface: um . i i 'm part of design , perhaps . uh , what is most important in a in a remote control ? what is the most important function aspect ? uh . project manager: you mean the external or industrial designer: well , you have to make it work . project manager: yeah of g of course . user interface: that 's alright . industrial designer: that 's the that 's the big thing . project manager: user interface: yeah , it should be easy to work with . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we can think about an interface with uh well user interface: uh . we maybe you can have a speech uh recognition interface . you just tell the television i want which channel . project manager: you wo n't user interface: or or you can say for example , um i want uh to list all the programme tonight . y you know , instead of uh remote control it 's doing the some searching for you , so you do n't have to look for the channel you want . just say maybe i just want to press i wan na have a button for all the movies tonight . or a button for all the magazines , all the information documentary tonight . and then you list a few , and i will choose from the list . so instead of pressing the channel number , i am choosing the programmes directly . yeah , that 's one way of uh making it useful . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: i i think if we include a lot of technology on the remote control it will be very costly . user interface: no , because no , project manager: s user interface: it 's not very a lot . th this information exists . for example you can get um project manager: like s uh you you you say we can use speech . user interface: you can use uh well for example anything . the the idea of using speech to reduce the button , but uh and it 's more natural . yeah . industrial designer: i i think if you want t to choose uh from a list of programme or or something like that you you may have to to use uh w uh i dunno marketing: i 'm a okay . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: i mean the main uh function of remote control is to have something in the hand project manager: in the hand . marketing: and we should be very careful about the size of the remote control . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: if we are going to add a speech interface , i 'm not sure with trendy slim size of the remote control it would be able to put a speech recog user interface: yeah . yes , possible . marketing: if you want to put a speech recognition system f interface for that i think the tv itself could have it . user interface: yeah . but industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and i could talk to the tv television itself . project manager: except if if you are far from the tv . marketing: i need not have an user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: i mean we have some or something , different technology but project manager: this is it 's user interface: yeah , yeah . but th the main idea i wanted to s i wanted to say is that um there should be a function , instead of choosing the ch tv channel , there 's a option you can choose , either tv channels or or pr or the or the contain or the contents of the programme . industrial designer: on the content . marketing: mm-hmm , yeah . industrial designer: yeah , yeah it 's it 's a good idea it 's a good idea project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so it 's more powerful . yeah . industrial designer: but i i think that technically it would be um a little bit uh uh more tricky to to achieve this than just to user interface: no . no , because you see now all the tv programmes are available on the webs . they they are they are they are available in x_m_l_ format or whatever the format . we do n't care . we just say that this are some content . we just want to retrieve the content and then classi sort them by the types of programmes . some of the websites they already provide this service , industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: so we can just use the service available . download it uh to the to this remote control . project manager: mm . user interface: and then there 's there are only six buttons for six categories , or sev seven . the most there are only seven buttons . so i just choose the category one and you reuse the same button , for example to to choose among the the sorted list the programme you want , so you do n't have to choose among hundred channels , if you have hundred channels , you just have six buttons , seven buttons . project manager: yeah we should also optimise the the number of buttons . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: well i i i i think that j just by using navigation buttons and the user interface on the screen we are able to uh navigate uh through the well channel programme or contents or in an easy way , so project manager: this is good idea . user interface: yeah . ah , yes . so . yeah . yeah , so you do n't have to display here , just display on the tv screen , right ? industrial designer: yeah in the dis display on the tv screen user interface: good idea . okay . industrial designer: and just uh with the with your remote control would just navigate through the f user interface: i think i think that will be revol revolutionary . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: because all the tv uh the the remote control have all numbers , lots of buttons and then you dunno what to choose in the end . yeah . alright . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . so i think for for the technical points we have to to to check how to gather the data from programme or contents and all this stuff user interface: okay . project manager: so we have five minutes to user interface: ah w w we have sometimes to use the white-board . project manager: ah you can y you can you can use it if you so , can we industrial designer: user interface: five minutes . marketing: and another interesting idea for this would be to have an light adaptation system depending upon the picture of user interface: okay . okay . marketing: so , i mean , if you 're watching a movie and suddenly there is a dark uh some dark scene , the lights adapt themself . user interface: yeah . project manager: s user interface: yeah . marketing: the lighting in the room changes . industrial designer: user interface: yeah , but we are designing just remote control . project manager: you it . marketing: i mean , we have a option in the remote control . if we want to have that option , you press that button in the remote . user interface: okay . industrial designer: oh right so user interface: okay , do you want to have a conceptual remote control there , or you just want to put the function in ? project manager: yeah . if if you you you can if you want you can use th the . industrial designer: please , norman , draw uh user interface: go on , draw something . mm . marketing: oh , i 'm afraid you forgot to put your lapel . user interface: where is it ? marketing: the lapel . project manager: or before the before the the design that says . user interface: ah , okay . industrial designer: user interface: where where is it ? here . marketing: yeah , that one . project manager: norman . marketing: just plug it . user interface: mm . marketing: yeah , that 's right . project manager: be before before writing you can uh sit and that says what we what we said user interface: mm . project manager: then after that you can you can use the . yeah . user interface: okay , alright . so so the most functional des mm the most important function is to ch choo buttons to choose the content . right ? we agree on that , right ? industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay . user interface: uh , uh first one is to uh buttons i or it could be anything with buttons . uh to choose uh content s or channels . project manager: yeah . user interface: so we have both . the user can choose w which one they want , right ? industrial designer: yeah , by content or by channel , user interface: by content or by channel . industrial designer: it 's a good idea . user interface: choose by contents or by channels . and then what did we say just now ? other than this . project manager: mm . industrial designer: and uh we we have to find a way how to gather information about the contents . user interface: okay , so technically how the problems that how to do it is to how to get the content . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: challenge . industrial designer: i think i it 's not very difficult to to browse by channel but it 's a little bit tricky to browse by contents so user interface: okay . content . okay , so these we have to work it out . so this one of the problem . and uh industrial designer: i think that 's the the things to do user interface: the main thing . industrial designer: and uh to uh reflect about it user interface: okay . alright . alright , okay . industrial designer: and uh discuss it in the next meeting . user interface: so we are we 'll discuss it we will get some information in the next meeting , so for now we get uh the funct this is the functional designer ? that 's the first aspect . right . we will get information and then we 'll come back in . . industrial designer: okay . thank you everybody . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah , we 'll come . project manager: so maybe we 'll meet in maybe five minutes ? and we 'll discuss the other other aspects . user interface: alright . alright , okay . industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay . well thank you all . user interface: thank you , mis { vocalsound }

user interface thought that with a speech recognition interface , users were choosing the programmes directly instead of pressing the channel number . it was not costly and it was different technology and more powerful .

what did marketing say about the size of the remote control and why he/she brought up the topic when discussing the functions ? </s> user interface: hmm . industrial designer: project manager: good morning everybody . industrial designer: good morning . project manager: user interface: good morning . marketing: good morning . project manager: so , we are asked to to make uh uh a new remote control for television . and the characteristics of this new remote control should be original and trendy and of course user user friendly . so people can can use it without any any problem . user interface: project manager: . industrial designer: project manager: i do n't know . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: well , i think we should set the the points to to drive the project and uh user interface: mm . b did you send us an email about this ? project manager: uh , not yet , user interface: industrial designer: project manager: but if you want user interface: yeah , we we received an email about this uh d designs . project manager: do you want do you want me to send you a mail ? industrial designer: user interface: ah it 's okay . project manager: or industrial designer: marketing: or you can put it in the shared folder . user interface: yeah , you see the email ? you email . the v very no , no the first one . marketing: no , i did n't get it . user interface: it 's inside . project manager: uh marketing: this one . user interface: no , no . marketing: no . user interface: the third one . oh , you did n't get anything . marketing: no , . user interface: it 's strange . mm . project manager: . user interface: i got an email about the dis about the discussion . yeah . project manager: you get email , . user interface: i dunno from who . industrial designer: yeah , from the account manager . marketing: user interface: from the account manager . you have received the same email , right ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: i think it 's for your guys to how to design it all the aspects so you need that information . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i think so . user interface: yeah , so each of us has a role to do . marketing: yeah project manager: s marketing: i think assign your uh roles . user interface: in each project manager: for each for each one . user interface: we already have our role . marketing: for each person , yeah . user interface: 'kay , we can project manager: so there are so we have three user interface: so there are three kinds of designs , that 's all . project manager: f yeah . we have functional design , conceptual design , and detail design . user interface: okay , alright . project manager: so , who will be the the responsible for the functional design ? any any volunteer ? industrial designer: i think our uh responsibilities will be assigned when we in our mail we received from the account manager . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: uh user interface: i 'm doing the interface . project manager: you are doing th industrial designer: no , i 'm doing the interface . project manager: . user interface: are you using the you are doing the in industrial designer: yeah i i 'm i 'm well , maybe we have okay so i industrial design . it was a little confusion about my uh project manager: user interface: ah industrial designer: but it 's alright . project manager: okay , i 'll for industrial design . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . and and you norman ? user interface: mm ? um working on i . user interface . industrial designer: user . project manager: and and marketing: uh , i 'm into marketing . project manager: doing the marketing . marketing: yeah nothing much in the project . project manager: nothing related here to the marketing: marketing in this design . user interface: yes . marketing: a design is basically for industrial design and the user interface . project manager: user interface: you see the second mail ? yeah , it 's inside . go down . appendix . marketing: yeah , this is . user interface: see there 's a role for everybody . marketing: yeah , that 's right , user interface: even for the marketing . marketing: first . us user define . project manager: next . user interface: but look at your role , your marketing role . marketing: there 's a trend watching . project manager: i do n't know . user interface: yeah , that 's your role . project manager: i . industrial designer: well , i think we can have a little discussion about what has to be done project manager: industrial designer: and what are your ideas about the project manager: about the design or maybe we 'll discuss this later , no ? industrial designer: well , w we want to have a new re remote control for for tv distribution i guess . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so we have to plan how how it would be developed and uh user interface: mm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: how we can make it work . user interface: yes . marketing: i mean working remotes we already have . this will be something different from the other remotes remote controls . industrial designer: project manager: what we we have to keep in mind the these characteristics . industrial designer: yeah , i dunno i project manager: and of course it should not be very costly . marketing: yeah , that 's right . project manager: so industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well i i think that norman and i would think about um the technical points and um we should discuss it in the next meeting , or user interface: need to collect information . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: about the about what ? user interface: um . i i 'm part of design , perhaps . uh , what is most important in a in a remote control ? what is the most important function aspect ? uh . project manager: you mean the external or industrial designer: well , you have to make it work . project manager: yeah of g of course . user interface: that 's alright . industrial designer: that 's the that 's the big thing . project manager: user interface: yeah , it should be easy to work with . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we can think about an interface with uh well user interface: uh . we maybe you can have a speech uh recognition interface . you just tell the television i want which channel . project manager: you wo n't user interface: or or you can say for example , um i want uh to list all the programme tonight . y you know , instead of uh remote control it 's doing the some searching for you , so you do n't have to look for the channel you want . just say maybe i just want to press i wan na have a button for all the movies tonight . or a button for all the magazines , all the information documentary tonight . and then you list a few , and i will choose from the list . so instead of pressing the channel number , i am choosing the programmes directly . yeah , that 's one way of uh making it useful . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: i i think if we include a lot of technology on the remote control it will be very costly . user interface: no , because no , project manager: s user interface: it 's not very a lot . th this information exists . for example you can get um project manager: like s uh you you you say we can use speech . user interface: you can use uh well for example anything . the the idea of using speech to reduce the button , but uh and it 's more natural . yeah . industrial designer: i i think if you want t to choose uh from a list of programme or or something like that you you may have to to use uh w uh i dunno marketing: i 'm a okay . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: i mean the main uh function of remote control is to have something in the hand project manager: in the hand . marketing: and we should be very careful about the size of the remote control . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: if we are going to add a speech interface , i 'm not sure with trendy slim size of the remote control it would be able to put a speech recog user interface: yeah . yes , possible . marketing: if you want to put a speech recognition system f interface for that i think the tv itself could have it . user interface: yeah . but industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and i could talk to the tv television itself . project manager: except if if you are far from the tv . marketing: i need not have an user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: i mean we have some or something , different technology but project manager: this is it 's user interface: yeah , yeah . but th the main idea i wanted to s i wanted to say is that um there should be a function , instead of choosing the ch tv channel , there 's a option you can choose , either tv channels or or pr or the or the contain or the contents of the programme . industrial designer: on the content . marketing: mm-hmm , yeah . industrial designer: yeah , yeah it 's it 's a good idea it 's a good idea project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so it 's more powerful . yeah . industrial designer: but i i think that technically it would be um a little bit uh uh more tricky to to achieve this than just to user interface: no . no , because you see now all the tv programmes are available on the webs . they they are they are they are available in x_m_l_ format or whatever the format . we do n't care . we just say that this are some content . we just want to retrieve the content and then classi sort them by the types of programmes . some of the websites they already provide this service , industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: so we can just use the service available . download it uh to the to this remote control . project manager: mm . user interface: and then there 's there are only six buttons for six categories , or sev seven . the most there are only seven buttons . so i just choose the category one and you reuse the same button , for example to to choose among the the sorted list the programme you want , so you do n't have to choose among hundred channels , if you have hundred channels , you just have six buttons , seven buttons . project manager: yeah we should also optimise the the number of buttons . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: well i i i i think that j just by using navigation buttons and the user interface on the screen we are able to uh navigate uh through the well channel programme or contents or in an easy way , so project manager: this is good idea . user interface: yeah . ah , yes . so . yeah . yeah , so you do n't have to display here , just display on the tv screen , right ? industrial designer: yeah in the dis display on the tv screen user interface: good idea . okay . industrial designer: and just uh with the with your remote control would just navigate through the f user interface: i think i think that will be revol revolutionary . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: because all the tv uh the the remote control have all numbers , lots of buttons and then you dunno what to choose in the end . yeah . alright . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . so i think for for the technical points we have to to to check how to gather the data from programme or contents and all this stuff user interface: okay . project manager: so we have five minutes to user interface: ah w w we have sometimes to use the white-board . project manager: ah you can y you can you can use it if you so , can we industrial designer: user interface: five minutes . marketing: and another interesting idea for this would be to have an light adaptation system depending upon the picture of user interface: okay . okay . marketing: so , i mean , if you 're watching a movie and suddenly there is a dark uh some dark scene , the lights adapt themself . user interface: yeah . project manager: s user interface: yeah . marketing: the lighting in the room changes . industrial designer: user interface: yeah , but we are designing just remote control . project manager: you it . marketing: i mean , we have a option in the remote control . if we want to have that option , you press that button in the remote . user interface: okay . industrial designer: oh right so user interface: okay , do you want to have a conceptual remote control there , or you just want to put the function in ? project manager: yeah . if if you you you can if you want you can use th the . industrial designer: please , norman , draw uh user interface: go on , draw something . mm . marketing: oh , i 'm afraid you forgot to put your lapel . user interface: where is it ? marketing: the lapel . project manager: or before the before the the design that says . user interface: ah , okay . industrial designer: user interface: where where is it ? here . marketing: yeah , that one . project manager: norman . marketing: just plug it . user interface: mm . marketing: yeah , that 's right . project manager: be before before writing you can uh sit and that says what we what we said user interface: mm . project manager: then after that you can you can use the . yeah . user interface: okay , alright . so so the most functional des mm the most important function is to ch choo buttons to choose the content . right ? we agree on that , right ? industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay . user interface: uh , uh first one is to uh buttons i or it could be anything with buttons . uh to choose uh content s or channels . project manager: yeah . user interface: so we have both . the user can choose w which one they want , right ? industrial designer: yeah , by content or by channel , user interface: by content or by channel . industrial designer: it 's a good idea . user interface: choose by contents or by channels . and then what did we say just now ? other than this . project manager: mm . industrial designer: and uh we we have to find a way how to gather information about the contents . user interface: okay , so technically how the problems that how to do it is to how to get the content . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: challenge . industrial designer: i think i it 's not very difficult to to browse by channel but it 's a little bit tricky to browse by contents so user interface: okay . content . okay , so these we have to work it out . so this one of the problem . and uh industrial designer: i think that 's the the things to do user interface: the main thing . industrial designer: and uh to uh reflect about it user interface: okay . alright . alright , okay . industrial designer: and uh discuss it in the next meeting . user interface: so we are we 'll discuss it we will get some information in the next meeting , so for now we get uh the funct this is the functional designer ? that 's the first aspect . right . we will get information and then we 'll come back in . . industrial designer: okay . thank you everybody . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah , we 'll come . project manager: so maybe we 'll meet in maybe five minutes ? and we 'll discuss the other other aspects . user interface: alright . alright , okay . industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay . well thank you all . user interface: thank you , mis { vocalsound }

marketing said that the team should be careful about the size of the remote control . he proposed that tv itself could have a remote control system which could be user friendly . he was suggesting some different technology .

what did user interface propose in the discussion about buttons when discussing the functions ? </s> user interface: hmm . industrial designer: project manager: good morning everybody . industrial designer: good morning . project manager: user interface: good morning . marketing: good morning . project manager: so , we are asked to to make uh uh a new remote control for television . and the characteristics of this new remote control should be original and trendy and of course user user friendly . so people can can use it without any any problem . user interface: project manager: . industrial designer: project manager: i do n't know . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: well , i think we should set the the points to to drive the project and uh user interface: mm . b did you send us an email about this ? project manager: uh , not yet , user interface: industrial designer: project manager: but if you want user interface: yeah , we we received an email about this uh d designs . project manager: do you want do you want me to send you a mail ? industrial designer: user interface: ah it 's okay . project manager: or industrial designer: marketing: or you can put it in the shared folder . user interface: yeah , you see the email ? you email . the v very no , no the first one . marketing: no , i did n't get it . user interface: it 's inside . project manager: uh marketing: this one . user interface: no , no . marketing: no . user interface: the third one . oh , you did n't get anything . marketing: no , . user interface: it 's strange . mm . project manager: . user interface: i got an email about the dis about the discussion . yeah . project manager: you get email , . user interface: i dunno from who . industrial designer: yeah , from the account manager . marketing: user interface: from the account manager . you have received the same email , right ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: i think it 's for your guys to how to design it all the aspects so you need that information . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i think so . user interface: yeah , so each of us has a role to do . marketing: yeah project manager: s marketing: i think assign your uh roles . user interface: in each project manager: for each for each one . user interface: we already have our role . marketing: for each person , yeah . user interface: 'kay , we can project manager: so there are so we have three user interface: so there are three kinds of designs , that 's all . project manager: f yeah . we have functional design , conceptual design , and detail design . user interface: okay , alright . project manager: so , who will be the the responsible for the functional design ? any any volunteer ? industrial designer: i think our uh responsibilities will be assigned when we in our mail we received from the account manager . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: uh user interface: i 'm doing the interface . project manager: you are doing th industrial designer: no , i 'm doing the interface . project manager: . user interface: are you using the you are doing the in industrial designer: yeah i i 'm i 'm well , maybe we have okay so i industrial design . it was a little confusion about my uh project manager: user interface: ah industrial designer: but it 's alright . project manager: okay , i 'll for industrial design . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . and and you norman ? user interface: mm ? um working on i . user interface . industrial designer: user . project manager: and and marketing: uh , i 'm into marketing . project manager: doing the marketing . marketing: yeah nothing much in the project . project manager: nothing related here to the marketing: marketing in this design . user interface: yes . marketing: a design is basically for industrial design and the user interface . project manager: user interface: you see the second mail ? yeah , it 's inside . go down . appendix . marketing: yeah , this is . user interface: see there 's a role for everybody . marketing: yeah , that 's right , user interface: even for the marketing . marketing: first . us user define . project manager: next . user interface: but look at your role , your marketing role . marketing: there 's a trend watching . project manager: i do n't know . user interface: yeah , that 's your role . project manager: i . industrial designer: well , i think we can have a little discussion about what has to be done project manager: industrial designer: and what are your ideas about the project manager: about the design or maybe we 'll discuss this later , no ? industrial designer: well , w we want to have a new re remote control for for tv distribution i guess . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so we have to plan how how it would be developed and uh user interface: mm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: how we can make it work . user interface: yes . marketing: i mean working remotes we already have . this will be something different from the other remotes remote controls . industrial designer: project manager: what we we have to keep in mind the these characteristics . industrial designer: yeah , i dunno i project manager: and of course it should not be very costly . marketing: yeah , that 's right . project manager: so industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well i i think that norman and i would think about um the technical points and um we should discuss it in the next meeting , or user interface: need to collect information . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: about the about what ? user interface: um . i i 'm part of design , perhaps . uh , what is most important in a in a remote control ? what is the most important function aspect ? uh . project manager: you mean the external or industrial designer: well , you have to make it work . project manager: yeah of g of course . user interface: that 's alright . industrial designer: that 's the that 's the big thing . project manager: user interface: yeah , it should be easy to work with . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we can think about an interface with uh well user interface: uh . we maybe you can have a speech uh recognition interface . you just tell the television i want which channel . project manager: you wo n't user interface: or or you can say for example , um i want uh to list all the programme tonight . y you know , instead of uh remote control it 's doing the some searching for you , so you do n't have to look for the channel you want . just say maybe i just want to press i wan na have a button for all the movies tonight . or a button for all the magazines , all the information documentary tonight . and then you list a few , and i will choose from the list . so instead of pressing the channel number , i am choosing the programmes directly . yeah , that 's one way of uh making it useful . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: i i think if we include a lot of technology on the remote control it will be very costly . user interface: no , because no , project manager: s user interface: it 's not very a lot . th this information exists . for example you can get um project manager: like s uh you you you say we can use speech . user interface: you can use uh well for example anything . the the idea of using speech to reduce the button , but uh and it 's more natural . yeah . industrial designer: i i think if you want t to choose uh from a list of programme or or something like that you you may have to to use uh w uh i dunno marketing: i 'm a okay . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: i mean the main uh function of remote control is to have something in the hand project manager: in the hand . marketing: and we should be very careful about the size of the remote control . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: if we are going to add a speech interface , i 'm not sure with trendy slim size of the remote control it would be able to put a speech recog user interface: yeah . yes , possible . marketing: if you want to put a speech recognition system f interface for that i think the tv itself could have it . user interface: yeah . but industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and i could talk to the tv television itself . project manager: except if if you are far from the tv . marketing: i need not have an user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: i mean we have some or something , different technology but project manager: this is it 's user interface: yeah , yeah . but th the main idea i wanted to s i wanted to say is that um there should be a function , instead of choosing the ch tv channel , there 's a option you can choose , either tv channels or or pr or the or the contain or the contents of the programme . industrial designer: on the content . marketing: mm-hmm , yeah . industrial designer: yeah , yeah it 's it 's a good idea it 's a good idea project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so it 's more powerful . yeah . industrial designer: but i i think that technically it would be um a little bit uh uh more tricky to to achieve this than just to user interface: no . no , because you see now all the tv programmes are available on the webs . they they are they are they are available in x_m_l_ format or whatever the format . we do n't care . we just say that this are some content . we just want to retrieve the content and then classi sort them by the types of programmes . some of the websites they already provide this service , industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: so we can just use the service available . download it uh to the to this remote control . project manager: mm . user interface: and then there 's there are only six buttons for six categories , or sev seven . the most there are only seven buttons . so i just choose the category one and you reuse the same button , for example to to choose among the the sorted list the programme you want , so you do n't have to choose among hundred channels , if you have hundred channels , you just have six buttons , seven buttons . project manager: yeah we should also optimise the the number of buttons . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: well i i i i think that j just by using navigation buttons and the user interface on the screen we are able to uh navigate uh through the well channel programme or contents or in an easy way , so project manager: this is good idea . user interface: yeah . ah , yes . so . yeah . yeah , so you do n't have to display here , just display on the tv screen , right ? industrial designer: yeah in the dis display on the tv screen user interface: good idea . okay . industrial designer: and just uh with the with your remote control would just navigate through the f user interface: i think i think that will be revol revolutionary . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: because all the tv uh the the remote control have all numbers , lots of buttons and then you dunno what to choose in the end . yeah . alright . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . so i think for for the technical points we have to to to check how to gather the data from programme or contents and all this stuff user interface: okay . project manager: so we have five minutes to user interface: ah w w we have sometimes to use the white-board . project manager: ah you can y you can you can use it if you so , can we industrial designer: user interface: five minutes . marketing: and another interesting idea for this would be to have an light adaptation system depending upon the picture of user interface: okay . okay . marketing: so , i mean , if you 're watching a movie and suddenly there is a dark uh some dark scene , the lights adapt themself . user interface: yeah . project manager: s user interface: yeah . marketing: the lighting in the room changes . industrial designer: user interface: yeah , but we are designing just remote control . project manager: you it . marketing: i mean , we have a option in the remote control . if we want to have that option , you press that button in the remote . user interface: okay . industrial designer: oh right so user interface: okay , do you want to have a conceptual remote control there , or you just want to put the function in ? project manager: yeah . if if you you you can if you want you can use th the . industrial designer: please , norman , draw uh user interface: go on , draw something . mm . marketing: oh , i 'm afraid you forgot to put your lapel . user interface: where is it ? marketing: the lapel . project manager: or before the before the the design that says . user interface: ah , okay . industrial designer: user interface: where where is it ? here . marketing: yeah , that one . project manager: norman . marketing: just plug it . user interface: mm . marketing: yeah , that 's right . project manager: be before before writing you can uh sit and that says what we what we said user interface: mm . project manager: then after that you can you can use the . yeah . user interface: okay , alright . so so the most functional des mm the most important function is to ch choo buttons to choose the content . right ? we agree on that , right ? industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay . user interface: uh , uh first one is to uh buttons i or it could be anything with buttons . uh to choose uh content s or channels . project manager: yeah . user interface: so we have both . the user can choose w which one they want , right ? industrial designer: yeah , by content or by channel , user interface: by content or by channel . industrial designer: it 's a good idea . user interface: choose by contents or by channels . and then what did we say just now ? other than this . project manager: mm . industrial designer: and uh we we have to find a way how to gather information about the contents . user interface: okay , so technically how the problems that how to do it is to how to get the content . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: challenge . industrial designer: i think i it 's not very difficult to to browse by channel but it 's a little bit tricky to browse by contents so user interface: okay . content . okay , so these we have to work it out . so this one of the problem . and uh industrial designer: i think that 's the the things to do user interface: the main thing . industrial designer: and uh to uh reflect about it user interface: okay . alright . alright , okay . industrial designer: and uh discuss it in the next meeting . user interface: so we are we 'll discuss it we will get some information in the next meeting , so for now we get uh the funct this is the functional designer ? that 's the first aspect . right . we will get information and then we 'll come back in . . industrial designer: okay . thank you everybody . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah , we 'll come . project manager: so maybe we 'll meet in maybe five minutes ? and we 'll discuss the other other aspects . user interface: alright . alright , okay . industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay . well thank you all . user interface: thank you , mis { vocalsound }

user interface proposed that there should be six or seven buttons for the same number of categories . users could use these buttons to choose hundreds of channels . these buttons could be navigation buttons .

what would the team talk about in the next meeting ? </s> user interface: hmm . industrial designer: project manager: good morning everybody . industrial designer: good morning . project manager: user interface: good morning . marketing: good morning . project manager: so , we are asked to to make uh uh a new remote control for television . and the characteristics of this new remote control should be original and trendy and of course user user friendly . so people can can use it without any any problem . user interface: project manager: . industrial designer: project manager: i do n't know . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: well , i think we should set the the points to to drive the project and uh user interface: mm . b did you send us an email about this ? project manager: uh , not yet , user interface: industrial designer: project manager: but if you want user interface: yeah , we we received an email about this uh d designs . project manager: do you want do you want me to send you a mail ? industrial designer: user interface: ah it 's okay . project manager: or industrial designer: marketing: or you can put it in the shared folder . user interface: yeah , you see the email ? you email . the v very no , no the first one . marketing: no , i did n't get it . user interface: it 's inside . project manager: uh marketing: this one . user interface: no , no . marketing: no . user interface: the third one . oh , you did n't get anything . marketing: no , . user interface: it 's strange . mm . project manager: . user interface: i got an email about the dis about the discussion . yeah . project manager: you get email , . user interface: i dunno from who . industrial designer: yeah , from the account manager . marketing: user interface: from the account manager . you have received the same email , right ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: i think it 's for your guys to how to design it all the aspects so you need that information . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i think so . user interface: yeah , so each of us has a role to do . marketing: yeah project manager: s marketing: i think assign your uh roles . user interface: in each project manager: for each for each one . user interface: we already have our role . marketing: for each person , yeah . user interface: 'kay , we can project manager: so there are so we have three user interface: so there are three kinds of designs , that 's all . project manager: f yeah . we have functional design , conceptual design , and detail design . user interface: okay , alright . project manager: so , who will be the the responsible for the functional design ? any any volunteer ? industrial designer: i think our uh responsibilities will be assigned when we in our mail we received from the account manager . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: uh user interface: i 'm doing the interface . project manager: you are doing th industrial designer: no , i 'm doing the interface . project manager: . user interface: are you using the you are doing the in industrial designer: yeah i i 'm i 'm well , maybe we have okay so i industrial design . it was a little confusion about my uh project manager: user interface: ah industrial designer: but it 's alright . project manager: okay , i 'll for industrial design . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . and and you norman ? user interface: mm ? um working on i . user interface . industrial designer: user . project manager: and and marketing: uh , i 'm into marketing . project manager: doing the marketing . marketing: yeah nothing much in the project . project manager: nothing related here to the marketing: marketing in this design . user interface: yes . marketing: a design is basically for industrial design and the user interface . project manager: user interface: you see the second mail ? yeah , it 's inside . go down . appendix . marketing: yeah , this is . user interface: see there 's a role for everybody . marketing: yeah , that 's right , user interface: even for the marketing . marketing: first . us user define . project manager: next . user interface: but look at your role , your marketing role . marketing: there 's a trend watching . project manager: i do n't know . user interface: yeah , that 's your role . project manager: i . industrial designer: well , i think we can have a little discussion about what has to be done project manager: industrial designer: and what are your ideas about the project manager: about the design or maybe we 'll discuss this later , no ? industrial designer: well , w we want to have a new re remote control for for tv distribution i guess . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so we have to plan how how it would be developed and uh user interface: mm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: how we can make it work . user interface: yes . marketing: i mean working remotes we already have . this will be something different from the other remotes remote controls . industrial designer: project manager: what we we have to keep in mind the these characteristics . industrial designer: yeah , i dunno i project manager: and of course it should not be very costly . marketing: yeah , that 's right . project manager: so industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well i i think that norman and i would think about um the technical points and um we should discuss it in the next meeting , or user interface: need to collect information . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: about the about what ? user interface: um . i i 'm part of design , perhaps . uh , what is most important in a in a remote control ? what is the most important function aspect ? uh . project manager: you mean the external or industrial designer: well , you have to make it work . project manager: yeah of g of course . user interface: that 's alright . industrial designer: that 's the that 's the big thing . project manager: user interface: yeah , it should be easy to work with . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we can think about an interface with uh well user interface: uh . we maybe you can have a speech uh recognition interface . you just tell the television i want which channel . project manager: you wo n't user interface: or or you can say for example , um i want uh to list all the programme tonight . y you know , instead of uh remote control it 's doing the some searching for you , so you do n't have to look for the channel you want . just say maybe i just want to press i wan na have a button for all the movies tonight . or a button for all the magazines , all the information documentary tonight . and then you list a few , and i will choose from the list . so instead of pressing the channel number , i am choosing the programmes directly . yeah , that 's one way of uh making it useful . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: i i think if we include a lot of technology on the remote control it will be very costly . user interface: no , because no , project manager: s user interface: it 's not very a lot . th this information exists . for example you can get um project manager: like s uh you you you say we can use speech . user interface: you can use uh well for example anything . the the idea of using speech to reduce the button , but uh and it 's more natural . yeah . industrial designer: i i think if you want t to choose uh from a list of programme or or something like that you you may have to to use uh w uh i dunno marketing: i 'm a okay . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: i mean the main uh function of remote control is to have something in the hand project manager: in the hand . marketing: and we should be very careful about the size of the remote control . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: if we are going to add a speech interface , i 'm not sure with trendy slim size of the remote control it would be able to put a speech recog user interface: yeah . yes , possible . marketing: if you want to put a speech recognition system f interface for that i think the tv itself could have it . user interface: yeah . but industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and i could talk to the tv television itself . project manager: except if if you are far from the tv . marketing: i need not have an user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: i mean we have some or something , different technology but project manager: this is it 's user interface: yeah , yeah . but th the main idea i wanted to s i wanted to say is that um there should be a function , instead of choosing the ch tv channel , there 's a option you can choose , either tv channels or or pr or the or the contain or the contents of the programme . industrial designer: on the content . marketing: mm-hmm , yeah . industrial designer: yeah , yeah it 's it 's a good idea it 's a good idea project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so it 's more powerful . yeah . industrial designer: but i i think that technically it would be um a little bit uh uh more tricky to to achieve this than just to user interface: no . no , because you see now all the tv programmes are available on the webs . they they are they are they are available in x_m_l_ format or whatever the format . we do n't care . we just say that this are some content . we just want to retrieve the content and then classi sort them by the types of programmes . some of the websites they already provide this service , industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: so we can just use the service available . download it uh to the to this remote control . project manager: mm . user interface: and then there 's there are only six buttons for six categories , or sev seven . the most there are only seven buttons . so i just choose the category one and you reuse the same button , for example to to choose among the the sorted list the programme you want , so you do n't have to choose among hundred channels , if you have hundred channels , you just have six buttons , seven buttons . project manager: yeah we should also optimise the the number of buttons . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: well i i i i think that j just by using navigation buttons and the user interface on the screen we are able to uh navigate uh through the well channel programme or contents or in an easy way , so project manager: this is good idea . user interface: yeah . ah , yes . so . yeah . yeah , so you do n't have to display here , just display on the tv screen , right ? industrial designer: yeah in the dis display on the tv screen user interface: good idea . okay . industrial designer: and just uh with the with your remote control would just navigate through the f user interface: i think i think that will be revol revolutionary . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: because all the tv uh the the remote control have all numbers , lots of buttons and then you dunno what to choose in the end . yeah . alright . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . so i think for for the technical points we have to to to check how to gather the data from programme or contents and all this stuff user interface: okay . project manager: so we have five minutes to user interface: ah w w we have sometimes to use the white-board . project manager: ah you can y you can you can use it if you so , can we industrial designer: user interface: five minutes . marketing: and another interesting idea for this would be to have an light adaptation system depending upon the picture of user interface: okay . okay . marketing: so , i mean , if you 're watching a movie and suddenly there is a dark uh some dark scene , the lights adapt themself . user interface: yeah . project manager: s user interface: yeah . marketing: the lighting in the room changes . industrial designer: user interface: yeah , but we are designing just remote control . project manager: you it . marketing: i mean , we have a option in the remote control . if we want to have that option , you press that button in the remote . user interface: okay . industrial designer: oh right so user interface: okay , do you want to have a conceptual remote control there , or you just want to put the function in ? project manager: yeah . if if you you you can if you want you can use th the . industrial designer: please , norman , draw uh user interface: go on , draw something . mm . marketing: oh , i 'm afraid you forgot to put your lapel . user interface: where is it ? marketing: the lapel . project manager: or before the before the the design that says . user interface: ah , okay . industrial designer: user interface: where where is it ? here . marketing: yeah , that one . project manager: norman . marketing: just plug it . user interface: mm . marketing: yeah , that 's right . project manager: be before before writing you can uh sit and that says what we what we said user interface: mm . project manager: then after that you can you can use the . yeah . user interface: okay , alright . so so the most functional des mm the most important function is to ch choo buttons to choose the content . right ? we agree on that , right ? industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay . user interface: uh , uh first one is to uh buttons i or it could be anything with buttons . uh to choose uh content s or channels . project manager: yeah . user interface: so we have both . the user can choose w which one they want , right ? industrial designer: yeah , by content or by channel , user interface: by content or by channel . industrial designer: it 's a good idea . user interface: choose by contents or by channels . and then what did we say just now ? other than this . project manager: mm . industrial designer: and uh we we have to find a way how to gather information about the contents . user interface: okay , so technically how the problems that how to do it is to how to get the content . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: challenge . industrial designer: i think i it 's not very difficult to to browse by channel but it 's a little bit tricky to browse by contents so user interface: okay . content . okay , so these we have to work it out . so this one of the problem . and uh industrial designer: i think that 's the the things to do user interface: the main thing . industrial designer: and uh to uh reflect about it user interface: okay . alright . alright , okay . industrial designer: and uh discuss it in the next meeting . user interface: so we are we 'll discuss it we will get some information in the next meeting , so for now we get uh the funct this is the functional designer ? that 's the first aspect . right . we will get information and then we 'll come back in . . industrial designer: okay . thank you everybody . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah , we 'll come . project manager: so maybe we 'll meet in maybe five minutes ? and we 'll discuss the other other aspects . user interface: alright . alright , okay . industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay . well thank you all . user interface: thank you , mis { vocalsound }

the team would talk about how to gather information about the contents , set the remote control system browse by channel or browse by contents and to reflect about it .

summarize the meeting </s> phd a: eh , we should be going . professor b: so ne next week we 'll have , uh , both birger and , uh , mike michael michael kleinschmidt and birger kollmeier will join us . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: um , and you 're you 're probably gon na go up in a couple three weeks or so ? when d when are you thinking of going up to , uh , ogi ? phd d: yeah , like , uh , not next week but maybe the week after . professor b: ok . good . so at least we 'll have one meeting with yo with you still around , and and phd d: uh - huh . professor b: that 's good . phd d: um , yeah . well , maybe we can start with this . mmm . professor b: all today , huh ? phd d: yeah . professor b: oh . phd d: um . yeah . so there was this conference call this morning , um , and the only topic on the agenda was just to discuss a and to come at uh , to get a decision about this latency problem . professor b: no , this i 'm sorry , this is a conference call between different aurora people or just ? phd d: uh , yeah . it 's the conference call between the aurora , uh , group . professor b: it 's the main conference call . ok . phd d: uh , yeah . there were like two hours of discussions , and then suddenly , uh , people were tired , i guess , and they decided on a number , two hundred and twenty , um , included e including everything . uh , it means that it 's like eighty milliseconds less than before . professor b: and what are we sitting at currently ? phd d: um . professor b: yeah . phd d: so , currently d uh , we have system that has two hundred and thirty . so , that 's fine . professor b: two thirty . phd d: yeah . so that 's the system that 's described on the second point of this document . professor b: so it 's we have to reduce it by ten milliseconds somehow . phd d: yeah . but that 's yeah . that 's not a problem , i i guess . professor b: ok . w it 's it 's p d primary primarily determined by the vad at this point , phd d: um . professor b: right ? phd d: yeah . professor b: s so we can make the vad a little shorter . phd d: yeah . at this point , yeah . professor b: that 's phd d: yeah , uh - huh . professor b: yeah . we probably should do that pretty soon so that we do n't get used to it being a certain way . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: yeah . phd d: um . professor b: was hari on the on the phone ? phd d: yeah , sure . professor b: ok . phd d: well , it was mainly a discussion between hari and david , professor b: hmm . phd d: who was like professor b: yeah . phd d: uh , professor b: ok . phd d: mmm uh , yeah . so , the second thing is the system that we have currently . oh , yes . we have , like , a system that gives sixty - two percent improvement , but if you want to stick to the this latency well , it has a latency of two thirty , but if you want also to stick to the number of features that limit it to sixty , then we go a little bit down but it 's still sixty - one percent . uh , and if we drop the tandem network , then we have fifty - seven percent . professor b: uh , but th the two th two thirty includes the tandem network ? phd d: yeah . professor b: ok . and i is the tandem network , uh , small enough that it will fit on the terminal size in terms of ? phd d: uh , no , i do n't think so . professor b: no . phd d: no . professor b: ok . phd d: it 's still in terms of computation , if we use , like , their way of computing the the maps the the mips , i think it fits , professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: but it 's , uh , m mainly a problem of memory . professor b: right . phd d: um , and i do n't know how much this can be discussed or not , because it 's it could be in rom , so it 's maybe not that expensive . but professor b: ho - how much memory d ? h how many ? phd d: i d i d uh , i i do n't kn remember exactly , but uh . yeah , i c i i have to check that . professor b: yeah . i 'd like to see that , cuz maybe i could think a little bit about it , cuz we maybe we could make it a little smaller or i mean , it 'd be it 'd be neat if we could fit it all . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: uh , i 'd like to see how far off we are . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: but i guess it 's still within their rules to have have it on the , uh , t uh , server side . right ? phd d: yeah . yeah . professor b: ok . phd d: mmm . professor b: and this is still ? uh , well , y you 're saying here . i c i should just let you go on . phd d: yeah , there were small tricks to make this tandem network work . uh , mmm , and one of the trick was to , um , use some kind of hierarchical structure where the silence probability is not computed by the final tandem network but by the vad network . um , so apparently it looks better when , uh , we use the silence probability from the vad network professor b: huh . phd d: and we re - scale the other probabilities by one minus the silence probability . um . so it 's some kind of hierarchical thing , uh , that sunil also tried , um , on spine and apparently it helps a little bit also . mmm . and . yeah , the reason w why why we did that with the silence probability was that , um professor b: could ? uh , uh , i 'm i 'm really sorry . can you repeat what you were saying about the silence probability ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: i only my mind was some phd d: yeah . so there is the tandem network that e e e estimates the phone probabilities professor b: yeah . yeah . phd d: and the silence probabilities also . professor b: right . phd d: and things get better when , instead of using the silence probability computed by the tandem network , we use the silence probability , uh , given by the vad network , professor b: oh . phd d: um , professor b: the vad network is ? phd d: which is smaller , but maybe , um so we have a network for the vad which has one hundred hidden units , and the tandem network has five hundred . um . so it 's smaller but th the silence probability from this network seems , uh , better . professor b: ok . phd d: mmm . uh . well , it looks strange , but professor b: yeah . but phd d: but it professor b: ok . phd d: maybe it 's has something to do to the fact that we do n't have infinite training data and professor b: we do n't ? phd d: well ! and so well , things are not optimal professor b: yeah . phd d: and mmm grad e: are you you were going to say why what made you wh what led you to do that . phd d: yeah . uh , there was a p { comment } problem that we observed , um , that there was there were , like , many insertions in the in the system . professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: mmm . professor b: hmm . phd d: actually plugging in the tandem network was increasing , i i i think , the number of insertions . professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: and , um so it looked strange and then just using the the other silence probability helps . mmm . um yeah . the next thing we will do is train this tandem on more data . professor b: so , you know , in a way what it might i it 's it 's a little bit like combining knowledge sources . phd d: um professor b: right ? because the fact that you have these two nets that are different sizes means they behave a little differently , phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: they find different things . and , um , if you have , um f the distribution that you have from , uh , f speech sounds is w { comment } sort of one source of knowledge . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: and this is and rather than just taking one minus that to get the other , which is essentially what 's happening , you have this other source of knowledge that you 're putting in there . so you make use of both of them in in what you 're ending up with . maybe it 's better . phd d: yeah . professor b: anyway , you can probably justify anything if what 's use phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd d: and and the features are different also . i mean , the vad does n't use the same features there are . professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: hmm . professor b: oh ! phd d: um professor b: that might be the key , actually . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: cuz you were really thinking about speech versus nonspeech for that . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: that 's a good point . phd d: mmm . uh . well , there are other things that we should do but , um , it requires time and we have ideas , like so , these things are like hav having a better vad . uh , we have some ideas about that . it would probably implies working a little bit on features that are more suited to a voice activity detection . professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: working on the second stream . of course we have ideas on this also , but w we need to try different things and uh , but their noise estimation , um uh professor b: i mean , back on the second stream , i mean , that 's something we 've talked about for a while . i mean , i think that 's certainly a high hope . phd d: yeah . mmm . professor b: um , so we have this this default idea about just using some sort of purely spectral thing ? phd d: uh , yeah . professor b: for a second stream ? phd d: but , um , we we did a first try with this , and it it clearly hurts . professor b: but , uh , how was the stream combined ? phd d: uh . it was c it was just combined , um , by the acoustic model . so there was , no neural network for the moment . professor b: right . so , i mean , if you just had a second stream that was just spectral and had another neural net and combined there , that that , uh , might be good . phd d: mm - hmm . yeah . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mmm . yeah . um yeah , and the other thing , that noise estimation and th um , maybe try to train uh , the training data for the t tandem network , right now , is like i is using the noises from the aurora task and i think that people might , um , try to argue about that because then in some cases we have the same noises in for training the network than the noises that are used for testing , professor b: right . phd d: and so we have t n uh , to try to get rid of these this problem . professor b: yeah . maybe you just put in some other noise , something that 's different . phd d: mm - hmm . yeah . professor b: i mean , it it 's probably helpful to have have a little noise there . but it may be something else phd d: uh - huh . professor b: th at least you could say it was . phd d: yeah . professor b: and then if it does n't hurt too much , though . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: yeah . that 's a good idea . phd d: um . yeah . the last thing is that i think we are getting close to human performance . well , that 's something i would like to investigate further , but , um , i did , like , um i did , uh , listen to the m most noisy utterances of the speechdat - car italian and tried to transcribe them . and , um professor b: so this is a particular human . this is this i this is stephane . phd d: yeah . so that 's that 's grad e: st - stephane . professor b: yeah . phd d: that 's the the flaw of the experiment . this is just i j { comment } it 's just one subject , professor b: yeah . grad e: getting close . phd d: but but still , uh , what happens is is that , uh , the digit error rate on this is around one percent , professor b: yeah . phd d: while our system is currently at seven percent . um , but what happens also is that if i listen to the , um a re - synthesized version of the speech and i re - synthesized this using a white noise that 's filtered by a lpc , uh , filter professor b: yeah . phd d: um , well , you can argue , that , uh that this is not speech , professor b: yeah . phd d: so the ear is not trained to recognize this . but s actually it sound like whispering , so we are professor b: well , i mean , it 's phd d: eh professor b: there 's two problems there . i mean i mean , so so the first is that by doing lpc - twelve with synthesized speech w like you 're saying , uh , it 's i i you 're you 're adding other degradation . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: right ? so it 's not just the noise but you 're adding in fact some degradation because it 's only an approximation . um , and the second thing is which is m maybe more interesting is that , um , { comment } if you do it with whispered speech , you get this number . what if you had done analysis { comment } re - synthesis and taken the pitch as well ? alright ? so now you put the pitch in . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: what would the percentage be then ? phd d: um professor b: see , that 's the question . so , you see , if it 's if it 's if it 's , uh let 's say it 's back down to one percent again . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: that would say at least for people , having the pitch is really , really important , which would be interesting in itself . um , phd d: uh , yeah . but professor b: if i on the other hand , if it stayed up near five percent , then i 'd say `` boy , lpc n twelve is pretty crummy `` . you know ? phd d: uh - huh . professor b: so i i i 'm not sure i 'm not sure how we can conclude from this anything about that our system is close to the human performance . phd d: ye yeah . well , the point is that eh l ey the point is that , um , what i what i listened to when i re - synthesized the lp - the lpc - twelve spectrum is in a way what the system , uh , is hearing , cuz @ @ all the all the , um , excitation all the well , the excitation is is not taken into account . that 's what we do with our system . and professor b: well , you 're not doing the lpc phd d: in this case professor b: i mean , so so what if you did a phd d: well , it 's not lpc , sure , professor b: what if you did lpc - twenty ? phd d: but lpc ? professor b: twenty . right ? i mean , th the thing is lpc is not a a really great representation of speech . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: so , all i 'm saying is that you have in addition to the w the , uh , removal of pitch , you also are doing , uh , a particular parameterization , phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: which , um , uh phd d: mmm . professor b: uh , so , let 's see , how would you do ? so , fo phd d: but that 's that 's what we do with our systems . and professor b: no . actually , we d we we do n't , because we do we do , uh , uh , mel filter bank , for instance . right ? phd d: yeah , but is it that is it that different , i mean ? professor b: um , i do n't know what mel , uh , based synthesis would sound like , phd d: i professor b: but certainly the spectra are quite different . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: could n't you t could n't you , um , test the human performance on just the original audio ? phd d: mm - hmm . this is the one percent number . professor b: yeah , it 's one percent . he 's trying to remove the pitch information phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: oh , oh . ok , phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: i see . professor b: and make it closer to what to what we 're seeing as the feature vectors . phd a: ok . so , y uh , your performance was one percent , and then when you re - synthesize with lpc - twelve it went to five . phd d: uh - huh . yeah . phd a: ok . professor b: i mean we were we were j it it it 's a little bit still apples and oranges because we are choosing these features in order to be the best for recognition . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: and , um , i if you listen to them they still might not be very even if you made something closer to what we 're gon na i it might not sound very good . phd d: yeah . professor b: uh , and i the degradation from that might might actually make it even harder , uh , to understand than the lpc - twelve . so all i 'm saying is that the lpc - twelve puts in synthesis puts in some degradation that 's not what we 're used to hearing , phd d: uh - huh . professor b: and is , um it 's not it 's not just a question of how much information is there , as if you will always take maximum advantage of any information that 's presented to you . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: in fact , you hear some things better than others . and so it it is n't phd a: but professor b: but , i agree that it says that , uh , the kind of information that we 're feeding it is probably , um , um , a little bit , um , minimal . there 's definitely some things that we 've thrown away . and that 's why i was saying it might be interesting if you an interesting test of this would be if you if you actually put the pitch back in . so , you just extract it from the actual speech and put it back in , and see does that is that does that make the difference ? if that if that takes it down to one percent again , then you 'd say `` ok , it 's it 's in fact having , um , not just the spectral envelope but also the also the the pitch that , uh , { comment } @ @ { comment } has the information that people can use , anyway . `` phd d: uh - huh . mmm . phd a: but from this it 's pretty safe to say that the system is with either two to seven percent away from the performance of a human . right ? so it 's somewhere in that range . professor b: well , or it 's it 's phd a: two two to six percent . professor b: yeah , so it 's it 's one point four times , uh , to , uh , seven times the error , phd d: to f seven times , yeah . professor b: for stephane . phd d: um . professor b: so , uh uh , but i i do n't know . i do do n't wan na take you away from other things . phd d: but { comment } but professor b: but that 's that 's what that 's the first thing that i would be curious about , is , you know , i i when you we phd d: but the signal itself is like a mix of um , of a a periodic sound and , @ @ { comment } uh , unvoiced sound , and the noise professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: which is mostly , uh , noise . i mean not periodic . so , what what do you mean exactly by putting back the pitch in ? because phd a: in the lpc synthesis ? i think professor b: yeah . you did lpc re - synthesis phd d: i professor b: l pc re - synthesis . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: so , uh and you did it with a noise source , rather than with with a s periodic source . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: right ? so if you actually did real re - synthesis like you do in an lpc synthesizer , where it 's unvoiced you use noise , where it 's voiced you use , uh , periodic pulses . phd d: um . professor b: right ? phd d: yeah , but it 's neither purely voiced or purely unvoiced . esp - especially because there is noise . professor b: well , it might be hard to do it phd d: so professor b: but it but but the thing is that if you um , if you detect that there 's periodic s strong periodic components , then you can use a voiced voice thing . phd d: oh . uh - huh . yeah . professor b: yeah . i mean , it 's probably not worth your time . it 's it 's a side thing and and and there 's a lot to do . phd d: uh - huh , yeah . professor b: but i 'm i 'm just saying , at least as a thought experiment , that 's what i would wan na test . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: uh , i wan would wan na drive it with a a a two - source system rather than a than a one - source system . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: and then that would tell you whether in fact it 's cuz we 've talked about , like , this harmonic tunneling or other things that people have done based on pitch , maybe that 's really a key element . maybe maybe , uh , uh , without that , it 's it 's not possible to do a whole lot better than we 're doing . that that could be . phd d: yeah . that 's what i was thinking by doing this es experiment , professor b: yeah . phd d: like mmm . evi professor b: but , i mean , other than that , i do n't think it 's i mean , other than the pitch de information , it 's hard to imagine that there 's a whole lot more in the signal that that , uh that we 're throwing away that 's important . phd d: yeah , but yeah . mm - hmm . yeah , right . professor b: right ? i mean , we 're using a fair number of filters in the filter bank and uh phd d: mm - hmm . uh , yeah . professor b: hmm . yeah . phd d: um . professor b: yeah . that look phd d: yeah , that 's it . professor b: yeah . that 's that 's i mean , one one percent is sort of what i would i would figure . if somebody was paying really close attention , you might get i would actually think that if , you looked at people on various times of the day and different amounts of attention , you might actually get up to three or four percent error on digits . uh , uh phd d: mm - hmm . um . professor b: so it 's you know , we 're not we 're not incredibly far off . on the other hand , with any of these numbers except maybe the one percent , it 's st it 's not actually usable in a commercial system with a full telephone number or something . phd d: uh - huh . yeah . at these noise levels . professor b: yeah . phd d: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: right . phd d: well , yeah . these numbers , i mean . mmm . professor b: good . um , while we 're still on aurora stuff maybe you can talk a little about the status with the , uh , wall street journal things for it . phd a: so i 've , um , downloaded , uh , a couple of things from mississippi state . um , one is their software their , uh , lvcsr system . downloaded the latest version of that . got it compiled and everything . um , downloaded the scripts . they wrote some scripts that sort of make it easy to run the system on the wall street journal , uh , data . um , so i have n't run the scripts yet . uh , i 'm waiting there was one problem with part of it and i wrote a note to joe asking him about it . so i 'm waiting to hear from him . but , um , i did print something out just to give you an idea about where the system is . uh , they on their web site they , uh , did this little table of where their system performs relative to other systems that have done this this task . and , um , the mississippi state system using a bigram grammar , uh , is at about eight point two percent . other comparable systems from , uh were getting from , uh , like six point nine , six point eight percent . so they 're professor b: this is on clean test set ? phd a: this is on clean on clean stuff . yeah . they they 've started a table where they 're showing their results on various different noise conditions but they they do n't have a whole lot of it filled in and and i did n't notice until after i 'd printed it out that , um , they do n't say here what these different testing conditions are . professor b: phd a: you actually have to click on it on the web site to see them . so i i do n't know what those numbers really mean . professor b: what kind of numbers are they getting on these on the test conditions ? phd a: well , see , i was a little confused because on this table , i 'm the they 're showing word error rate . but on this one , i i do n't know if these are word error rates because they 're really big . so , under condition one here it 's ten percent . then under three it goes to sixty - four point six percent . professor b: yeah , that 's probably aurora . phd a: yeah . professor b: i mean phd a: so m i guess maybe they 're error rates but they 're , uh they 're really high . professor b: i i i do n't find that surpri phd a: so professor b: i mean , we w what 's what 's some of the lower error rates on on on uh , some of the higher error rates on , uh , some of these w uh , uh , highly mismatched difficult conditions ? what 's a ? phd d: uh . yeah , it 's around fifteen to twenty percent . phd a: correct ? phd d: and the baseline , eh phd a: accuracy ? phd d: uh , error rate . professor b: yeah . phd d: twenty percent error rate , professor b: yeah . so twenty percent error rate on digits . phd d: and phd a: oh , oh , on digits . professor b: so if you 're doing so if you 're doing , phd d: and phd a: yeah . phd d: on digits . phd a: ok . professor b: you know , phd d: and this is so so still the baseline . professor b: sixty - thousand phd d: right ? phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah , and if you 're saying sixty - thousand word recognition , getting sixty percent error on some of these noise condition not at all surprising . phd a: yeah . phd d: the baseline is sixty percent also on digits , phd a: oh , is it ? phd d: on the m more mismatched conditions . phd a: ok . professor b: yeah . phd d: so . phd a: so , yeah , that 's probably what it is then . yeah . so they have a lot of different conditions that they 're gon na be filling out . professor b: it 's a bad sign when you looking at the numbers , you ca n't tell whether it 's accuracy or error rate . phd a: yeah . yeah . it 's it 's gon na be hard . um , they 're i i 'm still waiting for them to release the , um , multi - cpu version of their scripts , cuz right now their script only handles processing on a single cpu , which will take a really long time to run . so . but their s professor b: this is for the training ? phd a: uh i beli yes , for the training also . and , um , they 're supposed to be coming out with it any time , professor b: ok . phd a: the multi - cpu one . so , as soon as they get that , then i 'll i 'll grab those too professor b: ok . phd a: and so w professor b: yeah . cuz we have to get started , phd a: yeah . professor b: cuz it 's cuz , uh , phd a: yeah . i 'll go ahead and try to run it though with just the single cpu one , professor b: if the phd a: and i they they , um , released like a smaller data set that you can use that only takes like sixteen hours to train and stuff . so i can i can run it on that just to make sure that the the thing works and everything . professor b: oh ! good . yeah . cuz we 'll grad e: hmm . professor b: i guess the actual evaluation will be in six weeks or something . so . is that about right you think ? phd d: uh , we do n't know yet , i i think . professor b: really , we do n't know ? phd d: uh - huh . um . phd a: it was n't on the conference call this morning ? professor b: hmm . phd d: no . phd a: hmm . did they say anything on the conference call about , um , how the wall street journal part of the test was going to be run ? because i i thought i remembered hearing that some sites were saying that they did n't have the compute to be able to run the wall street journal stuff at their place , phd d: no . mmm . phd a: so there was some talk about having mississippi state run the systems for them . and i did did that come up at all ? phd d: uh , no . well , this first , this was not the point at all of this the meeting today phd a: oh , ok . phd d: and , professor b: some phd d: uh , frankly , i do n't know because i d { comment } did n't read also the most recent mails about the large - vocabulary task . but , uh , did you do you still , uh , get the mails ? you 're not on the mailing list or what ? phd a: hmm - mm . the only , um , mail i get is from mississippi state phd d: uh - huh . phd a: so phd d: oh , yeah . so we should have a look at this . phd a: about their system . i i do n't get any mail about professor b: i have to say , there 's uh something funny - sounding about saying that one of these big companies does n't have enough cup compute power do that , so they 're having to have it done by mississippi state . phd a: yeah . professor b: it just just sounds funny . phd a: yeah . it does . professor b: but , phd a: yeah . i 'm i 'm wondering about that professor b: anyway . phd a: because there 's this whole issue about , you know , simple tuning parameters , like word insertion penalties . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: and whether or not those are going to be tuned or not , and { comment } so . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: i mean , it makes a big difference . if you change your front - end , you know , the scale is completely can be completely different , so . it seems reasonable that that at least should be tweaked to match the front - end . but phd d: you did n't get any answer from joe ? phd a: i did , but joe said , you know , `` what you 're saying makes sense phd d: uh - huh . phd a: and i do n't know `` . so he does n't know what the answer is . phd d: uh - huh . phd a: i mean , that 's th we had this back and forth a little bit about , you know , are sites gon na are you gon na run this data for different sites ? and , well , if if mississippi state runs it , then maybe they 'll do a little optimization on that parameter , and , uh but then he was n't asked to run it for anybody . so i it 's it 's just not clear yet what 's gon na happen . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: uh , he 's been putting this stuff out on their web site and for people to grab but i have n't heard too much about what 's happening . professor b: so it could be i mean , chuck and i had actually talked about this a couple times , and and over some lunches , i think , that , um , one thing that we might wan na do the - there 's this question about , you know , what do you wan na scale ? suppose y you ca n't adjust these word insertion penalties and so forth , so you have to do everything at the level of the features . what could you do ? and , uh , one thing i had suggested at an earlier time was maybe some sort of scaling , some sort of root or or something of the , um , uh , features . but the problem with that is that is n't quite the same , it occurred to me later , because what you really want to do is scale the , uh , @ @ { comment } the range of the likelihoods rather than phd d: nnn , the dist yeah . professor b: but , what might get at something similar , it just occurred to me , is kind of an intermediate thing is because we do this strange thing that we do with the tandem system , at least in that system what you could do is take the , um , uh , values that come out of the net , which are something like log probabilities , and scale those . and then , uh , um then at least those things would have the right values or the right the right range . and then that goes into the rest of it and then that 's used as observations . so it 's it 's , um , another way to do it . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . but , these values are not directly used as probabilities anyway . professor b: i know they 're not . phd d: so there are there is professor b: i know they 're not . but but , you know so because what we 're doing is pretty strange and complicated , we do n't really know what the effect is at the other end . phd d: uh - huh . mm - hmm . professor b: so , um , my thought was maybe i mean , they 're not used as probabilities , but the log probabilities we 're taking advantage of the fact that something like log probabilities has more of a gaussian shape than gaus - than probabilities , and so we can model them better . so , in a way we 're taking advantage of the fact that they 're probabilities , because they 're this quantity that looks kind of gaussian when you take it 's log . so , { comment } uh , maybe maybe it would have a a reasonable effect to do that . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: i d i do n't know . but , i mean , i guess we still have n't had a a ruling back on this . and we may end up being in a situation where we just you know really ca n't change the word insertion penalty . but the other thing we could do is also we could i mean , this this may not help us , uh , in the evaluation but it might help us in our understanding at least . we might , just run it with different insper insertion penalties , and show that , uh , `` well , ok , not changing it , playing the rules the way you wanted , we did this . but in fact if we did that , it made a a big difference . `` phd a: i wonder if it it might be possible to , uh , simulate the back - end with some other system . so we we get our f front - end features , and then , uh , as part of the process of figuring out the scaling of these features , { comment } you know , if we 're gon na take it to a root or to a power or something , { comment } we have some back - end that we attach onto our features that sort of simulates what would be happening . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: um , professor b: and just adjust it until it 's the best number ? phd a: and just adjust it until that our l version of the back - end , uh , decides that that professor b: well , we can probably use the real thing , ca n't we ? and then jus just , uh , use it on a reduced test set or something . phd a: yeah . oh , yeah . that 's true . professor b: yeah . phd a: and then we just use that to determine some scaling factor that we use . professor b: yeah . so i mean , i i think that that 's a reasonable thing to do and the only question is what 's the actual knob that we use ? phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and the knob that we use should uh , uh , unfortunately , like i say , i do n't know the analytic solution to this cuz what we really want to do is change the scale of the likelihoods , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: not the cha not the scale of the the observations . but but , uh phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . grad e: out of curiosity , what what kind of recognizer is the one from mississippi state ? phd a: uh , w what do you mean when you say `` what kind `` ? grad e: is it ? um , is it like a gaussian mixture model ? phd a: yeah . gaussian mixture model . grad e: ok . phd a: it 's the same system that they use when they participate in the hub - five evals . it 's a , um sort of came out of , uh uh , looking a lot like htk . i mean , they started off with um , when they were building their system they were always comparing to htk to make sure they were getting similar results . and so , it 's a gaussian mixture system , uh professor b: do they have the same sort of mix - down sort of procedure , where they start off with a small number of some things phd a: i do n't know . yeah . and then divide the mixtures in half . professor b: and ? yeah . phd a: i do n't know if they do that . i 'm not really sure . professor b: yeah . grad e: hmm . professor b: d do you know what kind of tying they use ? are they they sort of some sort of a bunch of gaussians that they share across everything ? or or if it 's ? phd a: yeah , th i have i i i do n't have it up here but i have a the whole system description , that describes exactly what their system is professor b: ok . phd a: and i i 'm not sure . but , um professor b: ok . phd a: it 's some kind of a mixture of gaussians and , uh , clustering and , uh they 're they 're trying to put in sort of all of the standard features that people use nowadays . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: so the other , uh , aurora thing maybe is i i dunno if any of this is gon na come in in time to be relevant , but , uh , we had talked about , uh , { comment } guenter playing around , uh , uh , over in germany phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: and and , @ @ { comment } uh , possibly coming up with something that would , uh , uh , fit in later . uh , i saw that other mail where he said that he uh , it was n't going to work for him to do cvs . phd d: yeah . yeah . so now he has a version of the software . professor b: so he just has it all sitting there . yeah . phd d: yeah . um mm - hmm . professor b: so if he 'll he might work on improving the noise estimate or on some histogram things , or phd d: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . i just saw the eurospeech we we did n't talk about it at our meeting but i just saw the just read the paper . someone , i forget the name , { comment } and and ney , uh , about histogram equalization ? did you see that one ? phd d: um , it was a poster . or professor b: yeah . i mean , i just read the paper . phd d: yeah . professor b: i did n't see the poster . phd d: yeah . um it was something similar to n on - line normalization finally i mean , in the idea of of normalizing professor b: yeah . but it 's a little more it it 's a little finer , right ? so they had like ten quantiles phd d: yeah . professor b: and and they adjust the distribution . phd d: right . professor b: so you you have the distributions from the training set , phd d: n professor b: and then , uh so this is just a a histogram of of the amplitudes , i guess . right ? and then um , people do this in image processing some . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: you have this kind of of histogram of of levels of brightness or whatever . and and and then , when you get a new new thing that you you want to adjust to be better in some way , you adjust it so that the histogram of the new data looks like the old data . phd a: hmm . professor b: you do this kind of piece - wise linear or , uh , some kind of piece - wise approximation . they did a uh one version that was piece - wise linear and another that had a power law thing between them between the points . and , uh , they said they s they sort of see it in a way as s for the speech case { comment } as being kind of a generalization of spectral subtraction in a way , because , you know , in spectral subtraction you 're trying to get rid of this excess energy . uh , you know , it 's not supposed to be there . uh and , uh , this is sort of adjusting it for for a lot of different levels . and then they have s they have some kind of , uh , a floor or something , grad e: hmm . professor b: so if it gets too low you do n't do n't do it . phd a: hmm . professor b: and they they claimed very nice results , phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: so is this a histogram across different frequency bins ? professor b: and phd a: or ? professor b: um , i think this i you know , i do n't remember that . do you remember ? phd d: i think they have , yeah , different histograms . i uh something like one per frequency band , professor b: one phd a: so , one histogram per frequency bin . professor b: one per critical phd d: or but i did yeah , i guess . phd a: and that 's phd d: but i should read the paper . i just went through the poster quickly , professor b: yeah . phd a: so th professor b: and i do n't remember whether it was filter bank things phd a: oh . phd d: and i did n't professor b: or whether it was fft bins phd a: huh . professor b: or phd a: and and that that , um , histogram represents the different energy levels that have been seen at that frequency ? professor b: i do n't remember that . and how often they you 've seen them . yeah . phd a: uh - huh . grad e: hmm . professor b: yeah . and they do they said that they could do it for the test so you do n't have to change the training . you just do a measurement over the training . and then , uh , for testing , uh , you can do it for one per utterance . even relatively short utterances . and they claim it it works pretty well . phd a: so they , uh is the idea that you you run a test utterance through some histogram generation thing and then you compare the histograms and that tells you what to do to the utterance to make it more like ? professor b: i guess in pri yeah . in principle . phd a: i see . professor b: i did n't read carefully how they actually implemented it , phd a: hmm . yeah . professor b: whether it was some , uh , on - line thing , or whether it was a second pass , or what . but but they that that was sort of the idea . phd a: hmm . professor b: so that that seemed , you know , different . we 're sort of curious about , uh , what are some things that are , u u um , @ @ { comment } conceptually quite different from what we 've done . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: cuz we you know , one thing that w that , uh , stephane and sunil seemed to find , uh , was , you know , they could actually make a unified piece of software that handled a range of different things that people were talking about , and it was really just sort of setting of different constants . and it would turn , you know , one thing into another . it 'd turn wiener filtering into spectral subtraction , or whatever . but there 's other things that we 're not doing . so , we 're not making any use of pitch , uh , uh , which again , might might be important , uh , because the stuff between the harmonics is probably a schmutz . and and the , uh , transcribers will have fun with that . uh and , um , the , uh , stuff at the harmonics is n't so much . and and , uh and we there 's this overall idea of really sort of matching the the hi distributions somehow . uh , not just , um , um not just subtracting off your estimate of the noise . so . so i guess , uh , guenter 's gon na play around with some of these things now over this next period , phd d: uh , i dunno . professor b: or ? phd d: i do n't have feedback from him , but professor b: yeah . phd d: i guess he 's gon na , maybe professor b: well , he 's got it anyway , so he can . phd d: yeah . professor b: so potentially if he came up with something that was useful , like a diff a better noise estimation module or something , he could ship it to you guys u up there phd d: uh - huh . professor b: and phd d: yeah . professor b: we could put it in . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . yeah . so , that 's good . so , why do n't we just , uh , um i think starting starting a w couple weeks from now , especially if you 're not gon na be around for a while , we 'll we 'll be shifting more over to some other other territory . but , uh , uh , { comment } uh , n not not so much in this meeting about aurora , but but , uh , uh , maybe just , uh , quickly today about maybe you could just say a little bit about what you 've been talking about with michael . and and then barry can say something about what { comment } what we 're talking about . grad c: ok . so michael kleinschmidt , who 's a phd student from germany , showed up this week . he 'll be here for about six months . and he 's done some work using an auditory model of , um , human hearing , and using that f uh , to generate speech recognition features . and he did work back in germany with , um , a toy recognition system using , um , isolated digit recognition as the task . it was actually just a single - layer neural network that classified words classified digits , in fact . um , and he tried that on i think on some aurora data and got results that he thought seemed respectable . and he w he 's coming here to u u use it on a uh , a real speech recognition system . so i 'll be working with him on that . and , um , maybe i should say a little more about these features , although i do n't understand them that well . the i think it 's a two - stage idea . and , um , the first stage of these features correspond to what 's called the peripheral auditory system . and i guess that is like a filter bank with a compressive nonlinearity . and i 'm - i 'm not sure what we have @ @ in there that is n't already modeled in something like , um , plp . i should learn more about that . and then the second stage is , um , the most different thing , i think , from what we usually do . it 's , um it computes features which are , um , based on sort of like based on diffe different w um , wavelet basis functions used to analyze the input . so th he uses analysis functions called gabor functions , um , which have a certain extent , um , in time and in frequency . and the idea is these are used to sample , um , the signal in a represented as a time - frequency representation . so you 're sampling some piece of this time - frequency plane . and , um , that , um , is is interesting , cuz , @ @ for for one thing , you could use it , um , in a a multi - scale way . you could have these instead of having everything like we use a twenty - five millisecond or so analysis window , typically , um , and that 's our time scale for features , but you could using this , um , basis function idea , you could have some basis functions which have a lot longer time scale and , um , some which have a lot shorter , and so it would be like a set of multi - scale features . so he 's interested in , um th - this is because it 's , um there are these different parameters for the shape of these basis functions , um there are a lot of different possible basis functions . and so he he actually does an optimization procedure to choose an an optimal set of basis functions out of all the possible ones . phd a: hmm . h what does he do to choose those ? grad c: the method he uses is kind of funny is , { comment } um , he starts with he has a set of m of them . um , he and then he uses that to classify i mean , he t he tries , um , using just m minus one of them . so there are m possible subsets of this length - m vector . he tries classifying , using each of the m possible sub - vectors . phd d: hmm . grad c: whichever sub - vector , um , works the the best , i guess , he says the the fe feature that did n't use was the most useless feature , professor b: y yeah . gets thrown out . yeah . grad c: so we 'll throw it out and we 're gon na randomly select another feature from the set of possible basis functions . phd a: hmm ! professor b: yeah . phd a: so it 's a professor b: so i so it 's actuall phd a: it 's a little bit like a genetic algorithm or something in a way . professor b: well , it 's it 's much simpler . grad e: it 's like a greedy professor b: but it 's but it 's uh , it 's there 's a lot number of things i like about it , let me just say . phd a: greedy . professor b: so , first thing , well , you 're absolutely right . i mean , i i in truth , both pieces of this are have their analogies in stuff we already do . but it 's a different take at how to approach it and potentially one that 's m maybe a bit more systematic than what we 've done , uh , and a b a bit more inspiration from from auditory things . so it 's so i think it 's a neat thing to try . the primary features , um , are in fact yeah , essentially , it 's it 's , uh , you know , plp or or mel cepstrum , or something like that . you 've you 've got some , uh , compression . we always have some compression . we always have some you know , the the the kind of filter bank with a kind of quasi - log scaling . um , if you put in if you also include the rasta in it i rasta the filtering being done in the log domain has an agc - like , uh , characteristic , which , you know , people typi typically put in these kind of , uh , um , uh , auditory front - ends . so it 's very , very similar , uh , but it 's not exactly the same . um , i would agree that the second one is is somewhat more different but , um , it 's mainly different in that the things that we have been doing like that have been um , had a different kind of motivation and have ended up with different kinds of constraints . so , for instance , if you look at the lda rasta stuff , you know , basically what they do is they they look at the different eigenvectors out of the lda and they form filters out of it . right ? and those filters have different , uh , kinds of temporal extents and temporal characteristics . and so in fact they 're multi - scale . but , they 're not sort of systematically multi - scale , like `` let 's start here and go to there , and go to there , and go to there `` , and so forth . it 's more like , you run it on this , you do discriminant analysis , and you find out what 's helpful . grad c: i it 's multi - scale because you use several of these in parallel , professor b: yeah . they use several of them . grad c: is that right ? of professor b: yeah . grad c: ok . professor b: uh , i mean , you do n't have to but but but , uh , hynek has . um , but it 's also , uh hyn - when hynek 's had people do this kind of lda analysis , they 've done it on frequency direction and they 've done it on the time direction . i think he may have had people sometimes doing it on both simultaneously some two - d and that would be the closest to these gabor function kind of things . uh , but i do n't think they 've done that much of that . and , uh , the other thing that 's interesting the the , uh the feature selection thing , it 's a simple method , but i kinda like it . um , there 's a a old , old method for feature selection . i mean , eh , uh , i remember people referring to it as old when i was playing with it twenty years ago , so i know it 's pretty old , uh , called stepwise linear discriminant analysis in which you which i think it 's used in social sciences a lot . so , you you you you pick the best feature . and then you take y you find the next feature that 's the best in combination with it . and then so on and so on . and what what michael 's describing seems to me much , much better , because the problem with the stepwise discriminant analysis is that you do n't know that you know , if you 've picked the right set of features . just because something 's a good feature does n't mean that you should be adding it . so , um , uh , here at least you 're starting off with all of them , and you 're throwing out useless features . i think that 's that seems , uh that seems like a lot better idea . uh , you 're always looking at things in combination with other features . um , so the only thing is , of course , there 's this this artificial question of of , uh , exactly how you how you a how you assess it and if if your order had been different in throwing them out . i mean , it still is n't necessarily really optimal , but it seems like a pretty good heuristic . so i th i think it 's it 's i think it 's kinda neat stuff . grad e: hmm . professor b: and and and , uh , the thing that i wanted to to add to it also was to have us use this in a multi - stream way . grad e: hmm . professor b: um , so so that , um , when you come up with these different things , and these different functions , you do n't necessarily just put them all into one huge vector , but perhaps you have some of them in one stream and some of them in another stream , and so forth . and , um , um , { comment } um and we 've also talked a little bit about , uh , uh , shihab shamma 's stuff , in which you the way you look at it is that there 's these different mappings and some of them emphasize , uh , upward moving , uh , energy and fre and frequency . and some are emphasizing downward and fast things and slow things and and so forth . so . so there 's a bunch of stuff to look at . but , uh , i think we 're sorta gon na start off with what he , uh , came here with and branch out branch out from there . and his advisor is here , too , at the same time . so , he 'll be another interesting source of wisdom . grad e: hmm . professor b: so . grad e: as as we were talking about this i was thinking , um , whether there 's a relationship between um , between michael 's approach to , uh , some some sort of optimal brain damage or optimal brain surgeon on the neural nets . professor b: yeah . grad c: hmm . grad e: so , like , if we have , um we have our we have our rasta features and and presumably the neural nets are are learning some sort of a nonlinear mapping , uh , from the the the features to to this this probability posterior space . professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: right ? and , um and each of the hidden units is learning some sort of some sort of some sort of pattern . right ? and it could be , like like these , um these auditory patterns that michael is looking at . and then when you 're looking at the the , uh , um , the best features , you know , you can take out you can do the do this , uh , brain surgery by taking out , um , hidden units that do n't really help at all . professor b: mm - hmm . or the or features . grad e: and this is k sorta like professor b: right ? grad e: yeah . professor b: i mean , y actually , you make me think a a very important point here is that , um , if we a again try to look at how is this different from what we 're already doing , uh , there 's a a , uh a nasty argument that could be made th that it 's it 's not different at at all , because , uh if you ignore the the selection part because we are going into a a very powerful , uh , nonlinearity that , uh , in fact is combining over time and frequency , and is coming up with its own you know , better than gabor functions its , you know , neural net functions , grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: its { comment } whatever it finds to be best . grad c: professor b: um , so you could argue that in fact it but i i do n't actually believe that argument because i know that , um , you can , uh computing features is useful , even though in principle you have n't added anything in fact , you subtracted something , from the original waveform you know , uh , if you 've you 've processed it in some way you 've typically lost something some information . and so , you 've lost information and yet it does better with with features than it does with the waveform . so , uh , i i know that i sometimes it 's useful to to constrain things . so that 's why it really seems like the constraint in in all this stuff it 's the constraints that are actually what matters . because if it was n't the constraints that mattered , then we would 've completely solved this problem long ago , because long ago we already knew how to put waveforms into powerful statistical mechanisms . so . phd d: yeah . well , if we had infinite processing power and data , { comment } i guess , using the waveform could grad e: right . professor b: yeah uh , then it would work . yeah , i agree . yeah . there 's the problem . phd d: so , that 's professor b: yeah . then it would work . but but , i mean , i it 's with finite of those things i mean , uh , we we have done experiments where we literally have put waveforms in and and and , uh , phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: we kept the number of parameters the same and so forth , and it used a lot of training data . and it and it it , uh not infinite but a lot , and then compared to the number parameters and it it , uh it just does n't do nearly as well . so , anyway the point is that you want to suppress phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: it 's not just having the maximum information , you want to suppress , uh , the aspects of the input signal that are not helpful for for the discrimination you 're trying to make . so . so maybe just briefly , uh grad e: well , that sort of segues into what what i 'm doing . professor b: yeah . grad e: um , so , uh , the big picture is k um , come up with a set of , uh , intermediate categories , then build intermediate category classifiers , then do recognition , and , um , improve speech recognition in that way . um , so right now i 'm in in the phase where i 'm looking at at , um , deciding on a initial set of intermediate categories . and i 'm looking for data data - driven methods that can help me find , um , a set of intermediate categories of speech that , uh , will help me to discriminate later down the line . and one of the ideas , um , that was to take a take a neural net train train an ordinary neural net to uh , to learn the posterior probabilities of phones . and so , um , at the end of the day you have this neural net and it has hidden hidden units . and each of these hidden units is um , is learning some sort of pattern . and so , um , what what are these patterns ? phd a: hmm . grad e: i do n't know . um , and i 'm gon na to try to to look at those patterns to to see , um , from those patterns uh , presumably those are important patterns for discriminating between phone classes . and maybe maybe some , uh , intermediate categories can come from just looking at the patterns of um , that the neural net learns . professor b: be - before you get on the next part l let me just point out that s there 's there 's a a pretty nice { comment } relationship between what you 're talking about doing and what you 're talking about doing there . right ? grad e: yeah . professor b: so , it seems to me that , you know , if you take away the the the difference of this primary features , and , say , you use as we had talked about maybe doing you use p - rasta - plp or something for the the primary features , um , then this feature discovery , uh , uh , thing is just what he 's talking about doing , too , except that he 's talking about doing them in order to discover intermediate categories that correspond to these uh , uh , what these sub - features are are are are showing you . and , um , the other difference is that , um , he 's doing this in a in a multi - band setting , which means that he 's constraining himself to look across time in some f relatively limited , uh , uh , spectral extent . right ? and whereas in in this case you 're saying `` let 's just do it unconstrained `` . so they 're they 're really pretty related and maybe they 'll be at some point where we 'll see the the connections a little better and connect them . grad c: hmm . grad e: mm - hmm . um . yeah , so so that 's the that 's the first part uh , one one of the ideas to get at some some patterns of intermediate categories . um , the other one was , um , to , uh , come up with a a a model { comment } um , a graphical model , that treats the intermediate categories as hidden hidden variables , latent variables , that we do n't know anything about , but that through , um , s statistical training and the em algorithm , um , at the end of the day , we have , um we have learned something about these these latent , um latent variables which happen to correspond to intermediate categories . um . yeah , and so those are the the two directions that i 'm i 'm looking into right now . and , uh , um yeah . i guess that 's that 's it . professor b: ok . should we do our digits and get ou get our treats ? grad e: oh , tea time ? professor b: yeah . it 's kind of like , you know , the little rats with the little thing dropping down to them . phd a: that 's ri professor b: we do the digits and then we get our treats . grad e: oops . phd a: ok .

the meeting occurred very close to the finalization of the aurora model . the team discussed how various components of the model could be moved around to improve results . they had to decrease system latency as well to meet the aurora requirements . the team thought that lpc could solve the problems they were having . the team also began discussing the wall street journal data and task , which focused on speech recognition . the team was studying the task and learning from mississippi state 's existing model on how to perform better on it . finally , the team discussed how they could histogram equalization as an alternative to some of the techniques they were using in their current models .

summarize the discussion on lpc </s> phd a: eh , we should be going . professor b: so ne next week we 'll have , uh , both birger and , uh , mike michael michael kleinschmidt and birger kollmeier will join us . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: um , and you 're you 're probably gon na go up in a couple three weeks or so ? when d when are you thinking of going up to , uh , ogi ? phd d: yeah , like , uh , not next week but maybe the week after . professor b: ok . good . so at least we 'll have one meeting with yo with you still around , and and phd d: uh - huh . professor b: that 's good . phd d: um , yeah . well , maybe we can start with this . mmm . professor b: all today , huh ? phd d: yeah . professor b: oh . phd d: um . yeah . so there was this conference call this morning , um , and the only topic on the agenda was just to discuss a and to come at uh , to get a decision about this latency problem . professor b: no , this i 'm sorry , this is a conference call between different aurora people or just ? phd d: uh , yeah . it 's the conference call between the aurora , uh , group . professor b: it 's the main conference call . ok . phd d: uh , yeah . there were like two hours of discussions , and then suddenly , uh , people were tired , i guess , and they decided on a number , two hundred and twenty , um , included e including everything . uh , it means that it 's like eighty milliseconds less than before . professor b: and what are we sitting at currently ? phd d: um . professor b: yeah . phd d: so , currently d uh , we have system that has two hundred and thirty . so , that 's fine . professor b: two thirty . phd d: yeah . so that 's the system that 's described on the second point of this document . professor b: so it 's we have to reduce it by ten milliseconds somehow . phd d: yeah . but that 's yeah . that 's not a problem , i i guess . professor b: ok . w it 's it 's p d primary primarily determined by the vad at this point , phd d: um . professor b: right ? phd d: yeah . professor b: s so we can make the vad a little shorter . phd d: yeah . at this point , yeah . professor b: that 's phd d: yeah , uh - huh . professor b: yeah . we probably should do that pretty soon so that we do n't get used to it being a certain way . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: yeah . phd d: um . professor b: was hari on the on the phone ? phd d: yeah , sure . professor b: ok . phd d: well , it was mainly a discussion between hari and david , professor b: hmm . phd d: who was like professor b: yeah . phd d: uh , professor b: ok . phd d: mmm uh , yeah . so , the second thing is the system that we have currently . oh , yes . we have , like , a system that gives sixty - two percent improvement , but if you want to stick to the this latency well , it has a latency of two thirty , but if you want also to stick to the number of features that limit it to sixty , then we go a little bit down but it 's still sixty - one percent . uh , and if we drop the tandem network , then we have fifty - seven percent . professor b: uh , but th the two th two thirty includes the tandem network ? phd d: yeah . professor b: ok . and i is the tandem network , uh , small enough that it will fit on the terminal size in terms of ? phd d: uh , no , i do n't think so . professor b: no . phd d: no . professor b: ok . phd d: it 's still in terms of computation , if we use , like , their way of computing the the maps the the mips , i think it fits , professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: but it 's , uh , m mainly a problem of memory . professor b: right . phd d: um , and i do n't know how much this can be discussed or not , because it 's it could be in rom , so it 's maybe not that expensive . but professor b: ho - how much memory d ? h how many ? phd d: i d i d uh , i i do n't kn remember exactly , but uh . yeah , i c i i have to check that . professor b: yeah . i 'd like to see that , cuz maybe i could think a little bit about it , cuz we maybe we could make it a little smaller or i mean , it 'd be it 'd be neat if we could fit it all . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: uh , i 'd like to see how far off we are . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: but i guess it 's still within their rules to have have it on the , uh , t uh , server side . right ? phd d: yeah . yeah . professor b: ok . phd d: mmm . professor b: and this is still ? uh , well , y you 're saying here . i c i should just let you go on . phd d: yeah , there were small tricks to make this tandem network work . uh , mmm , and one of the trick was to , um , use some kind of hierarchical structure where the silence probability is not computed by the final tandem network but by the vad network . um , so apparently it looks better when , uh , we use the silence probability from the vad network professor b: huh . phd d: and we re - scale the other probabilities by one minus the silence probability . um . so it 's some kind of hierarchical thing , uh , that sunil also tried , um , on spine and apparently it helps a little bit also . mmm . and . yeah , the reason w why why we did that with the silence probability was that , um professor b: could ? uh , uh , i 'm i 'm really sorry . can you repeat what you were saying about the silence probability ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: i only my mind was some phd d: yeah . so there is the tandem network that e e e estimates the phone probabilities professor b: yeah . yeah . phd d: and the silence probabilities also . professor b: right . phd d: and things get better when , instead of using the silence probability computed by the tandem network , we use the silence probability , uh , given by the vad network , professor b: oh . phd d: um , professor b: the vad network is ? phd d: which is smaller , but maybe , um so we have a network for the vad which has one hundred hidden units , and the tandem network has five hundred . um . so it 's smaller but th the silence probability from this network seems , uh , better . professor b: ok . phd d: mmm . uh . well , it looks strange , but professor b: yeah . but phd d: but it professor b: ok . phd d: maybe it 's has something to do to the fact that we do n't have infinite training data and professor b: we do n't ? phd d: well ! and so well , things are not optimal professor b: yeah . phd d: and mmm grad e: are you you were going to say why what made you wh what led you to do that . phd d: yeah . uh , there was a p { comment } problem that we observed , um , that there was there were , like , many insertions in the in the system . professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: mmm . professor b: hmm . phd d: actually plugging in the tandem network was increasing , i i i think , the number of insertions . professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: and , um so it looked strange and then just using the the other silence probability helps . mmm . um yeah . the next thing we will do is train this tandem on more data . professor b: so , you know , in a way what it might i it 's it 's a little bit like combining knowledge sources . phd d: um professor b: right ? because the fact that you have these two nets that are different sizes means they behave a little differently , phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: they find different things . and , um , if you have , um f the distribution that you have from , uh , f speech sounds is w { comment } sort of one source of knowledge . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: and this is and rather than just taking one minus that to get the other , which is essentially what 's happening , you have this other source of knowledge that you 're putting in there . so you make use of both of them in in what you 're ending up with . maybe it 's better . phd d: yeah . professor b: anyway , you can probably justify anything if what 's use phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd d: and and the features are different also . i mean , the vad does n't use the same features there are . professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: hmm . professor b: oh ! phd d: um professor b: that might be the key , actually . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: cuz you were really thinking about speech versus nonspeech for that . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: that 's a good point . phd d: mmm . uh . well , there are other things that we should do but , um , it requires time and we have ideas , like so , these things are like hav having a better vad . uh , we have some ideas about that . it would probably implies working a little bit on features that are more suited to a voice activity detection . professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: working on the second stream . of course we have ideas on this also , but w we need to try different things and uh , but their noise estimation , um uh professor b: i mean , back on the second stream , i mean , that 's something we 've talked about for a while . i mean , i think that 's certainly a high hope . phd d: yeah . mmm . professor b: um , so we have this this default idea about just using some sort of purely spectral thing ? phd d: uh , yeah . professor b: for a second stream ? phd d: but , um , we we did a first try with this , and it it clearly hurts . professor b: but , uh , how was the stream combined ? phd d: uh . it was c it was just combined , um , by the acoustic model . so there was , no neural network for the moment . professor b: right . so , i mean , if you just had a second stream that was just spectral and had another neural net and combined there , that that , uh , might be good . phd d: mm - hmm . yeah . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mmm . yeah . um yeah , and the other thing , that noise estimation and th um , maybe try to train uh , the training data for the t tandem network , right now , is like i is using the noises from the aurora task and i think that people might , um , try to argue about that because then in some cases we have the same noises in for training the network than the noises that are used for testing , professor b: right . phd d: and so we have t n uh , to try to get rid of these this problem . professor b: yeah . maybe you just put in some other noise , something that 's different . phd d: mm - hmm . yeah . professor b: i mean , it it 's probably helpful to have have a little noise there . but it may be something else phd d: uh - huh . professor b: th at least you could say it was . phd d: yeah . professor b: and then if it does n't hurt too much , though . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: yeah . that 's a good idea . phd d: um . yeah . the last thing is that i think we are getting close to human performance . well , that 's something i would like to investigate further , but , um , i did , like , um i did , uh , listen to the m most noisy utterances of the speechdat - car italian and tried to transcribe them . and , um professor b: so this is a particular human . this is this i this is stephane . phd d: yeah . so that 's that 's grad e: st - stephane . professor b: yeah . phd d: that 's the the flaw of the experiment . this is just i j { comment } it 's just one subject , professor b: yeah . grad e: getting close . phd d: but but still , uh , what happens is is that , uh , the digit error rate on this is around one percent , professor b: yeah . phd d: while our system is currently at seven percent . um , but what happens also is that if i listen to the , um a re - synthesized version of the speech and i re - synthesized this using a white noise that 's filtered by a lpc , uh , filter professor b: yeah . phd d: um , well , you can argue , that , uh that this is not speech , professor b: yeah . phd d: so the ear is not trained to recognize this . but s actually it sound like whispering , so we are professor b: well , i mean , it 's phd d: eh professor b: there 's two problems there . i mean i mean , so so the first is that by doing lpc - twelve with synthesized speech w like you 're saying , uh , it 's i i you 're you 're adding other degradation . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: right ? so it 's not just the noise but you 're adding in fact some degradation because it 's only an approximation . um , and the second thing is which is m maybe more interesting is that , um , { comment } if you do it with whispered speech , you get this number . what if you had done analysis { comment } re - synthesis and taken the pitch as well ? alright ? so now you put the pitch in . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: what would the percentage be then ? phd d: um professor b: see , that 's the question . so , you see , if it 's if it 's if it 's , uh let 's say it 's back down to one percent again . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: that would say at least for people , having the pitch is really , really important , which would be interesting in itself . um , phd d: uh , yeah . but professor b: if i on the other hand , if it stayed up near five percent , then i 'd say `` boy , lpc n twelve is pretty crummy `` . you know ? phd d: uh - huh . professor b: so i i i 'm not sure i 'm not sure how we can conclude from this anything about that our system is close to the human performance . phd d: ye yeah . well , the point is that eh l ey the point is that , um , what i what i listened to when i re - synthesized the lp - the lpc - twelve spectrum is in a way what the system , uh , is hearing , cuz @ @ all the all the , um , excitation all the well , the excitation is is not taken into account . that 's what we do with our system . and professor b: well , you 're not doing the lpc phd d: in this case professor b: i mean , so so what if you did a phd d: well , it 's not lpc , sure , professor b: what if you did lpc - twenty ? phd d: but lpc ? professor b: twenty . right ? i mean , th the thing is lpc is not a a really great representation of speech . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: so , all i 'm saying is that you have in addition to the w the , uh , removal of pitch , you also are doing , uh , a particular parameterization , phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: which , um , uh phd d: mmm . professor b: uh , so , let 's see , how would you do ? so , fo phd d: but that 's that 's what we do with our systems . and professor b: no . actually , we d we we do n't , because we do we do , uh , uh , mel filter bank , for instance . right ? phd d: yeah , but is it that is it that different , i mean ? professor b: um , i do n't know what mel , uh , based synthesis would sound like , phd d: i professor b: but certainly the spectra are quite different . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: could n't you t could n't you , um , test the human performance on just the original audio ? phd d: mm - hmm . this is the one percent number . professor b: yeah , it 's one percent . he 's trying to remove the pitch information phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: oh , oh . ok , phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: i see . professor b: and make it closer to what to what we 're seeing as the feature vectors . phd a: ok . so , y uh , your performance was one percent , and then when you re - synthesize with lpc - twelve it went to five . phd d: uh - huh . yeah . phd a: ok . professor b: i mean we were we were j it it it 's a little bit still apples and oranges because we are choosing these features in order to be the best for recognition . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: and , um , i if you listen to them they still might not be very even if you made something closer to what we 're gon na i it might not sound very good . phd d: yeah . professor b: uh , and i the degradation from that might might actually make it even harder , uh , to understand than the lpc - twelve . so all i 'm saying is that the lpc - twelve puts in synthesis puts in some degradation that 's not what we 're used to hearing , phd d: uh - huh . professor b: and is , um it 's not it 's not just a question of how much information is there , as if you will always take maximum advantage of any information that 's presented to you . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: in fact , you hear some things better than others . and so it it is n't phd a: but professor b: but , i agree that it says that , uh , the kind of information that we 're feeding it is probably , um , um , a little bit , um , minimal . there 's definitely some things that we 've thrown away . and that 's why i was saying it might be interesting if you an interesting test of this would be if you if you actually put the pitch back in . so , you just extract it from the actual speech and put it back in , and see does that is that does that make the difference ? if that if that takes it down to one percent again , then you 'd say `` ok , it 's it 's in fact having , um , not just the spectral envelope but also the also the the pitch that , uh , { comment } @ @ { comment } has the information that people can use , anyway . `` phd d: uh - huh . mmm . phd a: but from this it 's pretty safe to say that the system is with either two to seven percent away from the performance of a human . right ? so it 's somewhere in that range . professor b: well , or it 's it 's phd a: two two to six percent . professor b: yeah , so it 's it 's one point four times , uh , to , uh , seven times the error , phd d: to f seven times , yeah . professor b: for stephane . phd d: um . professor b: so , uh uh , but i i do n't know . i do do n't wan na take you away from other things . phd d: but { comment } but professor b: but that 's that 's what that 's the first thing that i would be curious about , is , you know , i i when you we phd d: but the signal itself is like a mix of um , of a a periodic sound and , @ @ { comment } uh , unvoiced sound , and the noise professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: which is mostly , uh , noise . i mean not periodic . so , what what do you mean exactly by putting back the pitch in ? because phd a: in the lpc synthesis ? i think professor b: yeah . you did lpc re - synthesis phd d: i professor b: l pc re - synthesis . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: so , uh and you did it with a noise source , rather than with with a s periodic source . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: right ? so if you actually did real re - synthesis like you do in an lpc synthesizer , where it 's unvoiced you use noise , where it 's voiced you use , uh , periodic pulses . phd d: um . professor b: right ? phd d: yeah , but it 's neither purely voiced or purely unvoiced . esp - especially because there is noise . professor b: well , it might be hard to do it phd d: so professor b: but it but but the thing is that if you um , if you detect that there 's periodic s strong periodic components , then you can use a voiced voice thing . phd d: oh . uh - huh . yeah . professor b: yeah . i mean , it 's probably not worth your time . it 's it 's a side thing and and and there 's a lot to do . phd d: uh - huh , yeah . professor b: but i 'm i 'm just saying , at least as a thought experiment , that 's what i would wan na test . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: uh , i wan would wan na drive it with a a a two - source system rather than a than a one - source system . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: and then that would tell you whether in fact it 's cuz we 've talked about , like , this harmonic tunneling or other things that people have done based on pitch , maybe that 's really a key element . maybe maybe , uh , uh , without that , it 's it 's not possible to do a whole lot better than we 're doing . that that could be . phd d: yeah . that 's what i was thinking by doing this es experiment , professor b: yeah . phd d: like mmm . evi professor b: but , i mean , other than that , i do n't think it 's i mean , other than the pitch de information , it 's hard to imagine that there 's a whole lot more in the signal that that , uh that we 're throwing away that 's important . phd d: yeah , but yeah . mm - hmm . yeah , right . professor b: right ? i mean , we 're using a fair number of filters in the filter bank and uh phd d: mm - hmm . uh , yeah . professor b: hmm . yeah . phd d: um . professor b: yeah . that look phd d: yeah , that 's it . professor b: yeah . that 's that 's i mean , one one percent is sort of what i would i would figure . if somebody was paying really close attention , you might get i would actually think that if , you looked at people on various times of the day and different amounts of attention , you might actually get up to three or four percent error on digits . uh , uh phd d: mm - hmm . um . professor b: so it 's you know , we 're not we 're not incredibly far off . on the other hand , with any of these numbers except maybe the one percent , it 's st it 's not actually usable in a commercial system with a full telephone number or something . phd d: uh - huh . yeah . at these noise levels . professor b: yeah . phd d: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: right . phd d: well , yeah . these numbers , i mean . mmm . professor b: good . um , while we 're still on aurora stuff maybe you can talk a little about the status with the , uh , wall street journal things for it . phd a: so i 've , um , downloaded , uh , a couple of things from mississippi state . um , one is their software their , uh , lvcsr system . downloaded the latest version of that . got it compiled and everything . um , downloaded the scripts . they wrote some scripts that sort of make it easy to run the system on the wall street journal , uh , data . um , so i have n't run the scripts yet . uh , i 'm waiting there was one problem with part of it and i wrote a note to joe asking him about it . so i 'm waiting to hear from him . but , um , i did print something out just to give you an idea about where the system is . uh , they on their web site they , uh , did this little table of where their system performs relative to other systems that have done this this task . and , um , the mississippi state system using a bigram grammar , uh , is at about eight point two percent . other comparable systems from , uh were getting from , uh , like six point nine , six point eight percent . so they 're professor b: this is on clean test set ? phd a: this is on clean on clean stuff . yeah . they they 've started a table where they 're showing their results on various different noise conditions but they they do n't have a whole lot of it filled in and and i did n't notice until after i 'd printed it out that , um , they do n't say here what these different testing conditions are . professor b: phd a: you actually have to click on it on the web site to see them . so i i do n't know what those numbers really mean . professor b: what kind of numbers are they getting on these on the test conditions ? phd a: well , see , i was a little confused because on this table , i 'm the they 're showing word error rate . but on this one , i i do n't know if these are word error rates because they 're really big . so , under condition one here it 's ten percent . then under three it goes to sixty - four point six percent . professor b: yeah , that 's probably aurora . phd a: yeah . professor b: i mean phd a: so m i guess maybe they 're error rates but they 're , uh they 're really high . professor b: i i i do n't find that surpri phd a: so professor b: i mean , we w what 's what 's some of the lower error rates on on on uh , some of the higher error rates on , uh , some of these w uh , uh , highly mismatched difficult conditions ? what 's a ? phd d: uh . yeah , it 's around fifteen to twenty percent . phd a: correct ? phd d: and the baseline , eh phd a: accuracy ? phd d: uh , error rate . professor b: yeah . phd d: twenty percent error rate , professor b: yeah . so twenty percent error rate on digits . phd d: and phd a: oh , oh , on digits . professor b: so if you 're doing so if you 're doing , phd d: and phd a: yeah . phd d: on digits . phd a: ok . professor b: you know , phd d: and this is so so still the baseline . professor b: sixty - thousand phd d: right ? phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah , and if you 're saying sixty - thousand word recognition , getting sixty percent error on some of these noise condition not at all surprising . phd a: yeah . phd d: the baseline is sixty percent also on digits , phd a: oh , is it ? phd d: on the m more mismatched conditions . phd a: ok . professor b: yeah . phd d: so . phd a: so , yeah , that 's probably what it is then . yeah . so they have a lot of different conditions that they 're gon na be filling out . professor b: it 's a bad sign when you looking at the numbers , you ca n't tell whether it 's accuracy or error rate . phd a: yeah . yeah . it 's it 's gon na be hard . um , they 're i i 'm still waiting for them to release the , um , multi - cpu version of their scripts , cuz right now their script only handles processing on a single cpu , which will take a really long time to run . so . but their s professor b: this is for the training ? phd a: uh i beli yes , for the training also . and , um , they 're supposed to be coming out with it any time , professor b: ok . phd a: the multi - cpu one . so , as soon as they get that , then i 'll i 'll grab those too professor b: ok . phd a: and so w professor b: yeah . cuz we have to get started , phd a: yeah . professor b: cuz it 's cuz , uh , phd a: yeah . i 'll go ahead and try to run it though with just the single cpu one , professor b: if the phd a: and i they they , um , released like a smaller data set that you can use that only takes like sixteen hours to train and stuff . so i can i can run it on that just to make sure that the the thing works and everything . professor b: oh ! good . yeah . cuz we 'll grad e: hmm . professor b: i guess the actual evaluation will be in six weeks or something . so . is that about right you think ? phd d: uh , we do n't know yet , i i think . professor b: really , we do n't know ? phd d: uh - huh . um . phd a: it was n't on the conference call this morning ? professor b: hmm . phd d: no . phd a: hmm . did they say anything on the conference call about , um , how the wall street journal part of the test was going to be run ? because i i thought i remembered hearing that some sites were saying that they did n't have the compute to be able to run the wall street journal stuff at their place , phd d: no . mmm . phd a: so there was some talk about having mississippi state run the systems for them . and i did did that come up at all ? phd d: uh , no . well , this first , this was not the point at all of this the meeting today phd a: oh , ok . phd d: and , professor b: some phd d: uh , frankly , i do n't know because i d { comment } did n't read also the most recent mails about the large - vocabulary task . but , uh , did you do you still , uh , get the mails ? you 're not on the mailing list or what ? phd a: hmm - mm . the only , um , mail i get is from mississippi state phd d: uh - huh . phd a: so phd d: oh , yeah . so we should have a look at this . phd a: about their system . i i do n't get any mail about professor b: i have to say , there 's uh something funny - sounding about saying that one of these big companies does n't have enough cup compute power do that , so they 're having to have it done by mississippi state . phd a: yeah . professor b: it just just sounds funny . phd a: yeah . it does . professor b: but , phd a: yeah . i 'm i 'm wondering about that professor b: anyway . phd a: because there 's this whole issue about , you know , simple tuning parameters , like word insertion penalties . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: and whether or not those are going to be tuned or not , and { comment } so . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: i mean , it makes a big difference . if you change your front - end , you know , the scale is completely can be completely different , so . it seems reasonable that that at least should be tweaked to match the front - end . but phd d: you did n't get any answer from joe ? phd a: i did , but joe said , you know , `` what you 're saying makes sense phd d: uh - huh . phd a: and i do n't know `` . so he does n't know what the answer is . phd d: uh - huh . phd a: i mean , that 's th we had this back and forth a little bit about , you know , are sites gon na are you gon na run this data for different sites ? and , well , if if mississippi state runs it , then maybe they 'll do a little optimization on that parameter , and , uh but then he was n't asked to run it for anybody . so i it 's it 's just not clear yet what 's gon na happen . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: uh , he 's been putting this stuff out on their web site and for people to grab but i have n't heard too much about what 's happening . professor b: so it could be i mean , chuck and i had actually talked about this a couple times , and and over some lunches , i think , that , um , one thing that we might wan na do the - there 's this question about , you know , what do you wan na scale ? suppose y you ca n't adjust these word insertion penalties and so forth , so you have to do everything at the level of the features . what could you do ? and , uh , one thing i had suggested at an earlier time was maybe some sort of scaling , some sort of root or or something of the , um , uh , features . but the problem with that is that is n't quite the same , it occurred to me later , because what you really want to do is scale the , uh , @ @ { comment } the range of the likelihoods rather than phd d: nnn , the dist yeah . professor b: but , what might get at something similar , it just occurred to me , is kind of an intermediate thing is because we do this strange thing that we do with the tandem system , at least in that system what you could do is take the , um , uh , values that come out of the net , which are something like log probabilities , and scale those . and then , uh , um then at least those things would have the right values or the right the right range . and then that goes into the rest of it and then that 's used as observations . so it 's it 's , um , another way to do it . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . but , these values are not directly used as probabilities anyway . professor b: i know they 're not . phd d: so there are there is professor b: i know they 're not . but but , you know so because what we 're doing is pretty strange and complicated , we do n't really know what the effect is at the other end . phd d: uh - huh . mm - hmm . professor b: so , um , my thought was maybe i mean , they 're not used as probabilities , but the log probabilities we 're taking advantage of the fact that something like log probabilities has more of a gaussian shape than gaus - than probabilities , and so we can model them better . so , in a way we 're taking advantage of the fact that they 're probabilities , because they 're this quantity that looks kind of gaussian when you take it 's log . so , { comment } uh , maybe maybe it would have a a reasonable effect to do that . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: i d i do n't know . but , i mean , i guess we still have n't had a a ruling back on this . and we may end up being in a situation where we just you know really ca n't change the word insertion penalty . but the other thing we could do is also we could i mean , this this may not help us , uh , in the evaluation but it might help us in our understanding at least . we might , just run it with different insper insertion penalties , and show that , uh , `` well , ok , not changing it , playing the rules the way you wanted , we did this . but in fact if we did that , it made a a big difference . `` phd a: i wonder if it it might be possible to , uh , simulate the back - end with some other system . so we we get our f front - end features , and then , uh , as part of the process of figuring out the scaling of these features , { comment } you know , if we 're gon na take it to a root or to a power or something , { comment } we have some back - end that we attach onto our features that sort of simulates what would be happening . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: um , professor b: and just adjust it until it 's the best number ? phd a: and just adjust it until that our l version of the back - end , uh , decides that that professor b: well , we can probably use the real thing , ca n't we ? and then jus just , uh , use it on a reduced test set or something . phd a: yeah . oh , yeah . that 's true . professor b: yeah . phd a: and then we just use that to determine some scaling factor that we use . professor b: yeah . so i mean , i i think that that 's a reasonable thing to do and the only question is what 's the actual knob that we use ? phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and the knob that we use should uh , uh , unfortunately , like i say , i do n't know the analytic solution to this cuz what we really want to do is change the scale of the likelihoods , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: not the cha not the scale of the the observations . but but , uh phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . grad e: out of curiosity , what what kind of recognizer is the one from mississippi state ? phd a: uh , w what do you mean when you say `` what kind `` ? grad e: is it ? um , is it like a gaussian mixture model ? phd a: yeah . gaussian mixture model . grad e: ok . phd a: it 's the same system that they use when they participate in the hub - five evals . it 's a , um sort of came out of , uh uh , looking a lot like htk . i mean , they started off with um , when they were building their system they were always comparing to htk to make sure they were getting similar results . and so , it 's a gaussian mixture system , uh professor b: do they have the same sort of mix - down sort of procedure , where they start off with a small number of some things phd a: i do n't know . yeah . and then divide the mixtures in half . professor b: and ? yeah . phd a: i do n't know if they do that . i 'm not really sure . professor b: yeah . grad e: hmm . professor b: d do you know what kind of tying they use ? are they they sort of some sort of a bunch of gaussians that they share across everything ? or or if it 's ? phd a: yeah , th i have i i i do n't have it up here but i have a the whole system description , that describes exactly what their system is professor b: ok . phd a: and i i 'm not sure . but , um professor b: ok . phd a: it 's some kind of a mixture of gaussians and , uh , clustering and , uh they 're they 're trying to put in sort of all of the standard features that people use nowadays . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: so the other , uh , aurora thing maybe is i i dunno if any of this is gon na come in in time to be relevant , but , uh , we had talked about , uh , { comment } guenter playing around , uh , uh , over in germany phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: and and , @ @ { comment } uh , possibly coming up with something that would , uh , uh , fit in later . uh , i saw that other mail where he said that he uh , it was n't going to work for him to do cvs . phd d: yeah . yeah . so now he has a version of the software . professor b: so he just has it all sitting there . yeah . phd d: yeah . um mm - hmm . professor b: so if he 'll he might work on improving the noise estimate or on some histogram things , or phd d: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . i just saw the eurospeech we we did n't talk about it at our meeting but i just saw the just read the paper . someone , i forget the name , { comment } and and ney , uh , about histogram equalization ? did you see that one ? phd d: um , it was a poster . or professor b: yeah . i mean , i just read the paper . phd d: yeah . professor b: i did n't see the poster . phd d: yeah . um it was something similar to n on - line normalization finally i mean , in the idea of of normalizing professor b: yeah . but it 's a little more it it 's a little finer , right ? so they had like ten quantiles phd d: yeah . professor b: and and they adjust the distribution . phd d: right . professor b: so you you have the distributions from the training set , phd d: n professor b: and then , uh so this is just a a histogram of of the amplitudes , i guess . right ? and then um , people do this in image processing some . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: you have this kind of of histogram of of levels of brightness or whatever . and and and then , when you get a new new thing that you you want to adjust to be better in some way , you adjust it so that the histogram of the new data looks like the old data . phd a: hmm . professor b: you do this kind of piece - wise linear or , uh , some kind of piece - wise approximation . they did a uh one version that was piece - wise linear and another that had a power law thing between them between the points . and , uh , they said they s they sort of see it in a way as s for the speech case { comment } as being kind of a generalization of spectral subtraction in a way , because , you know , in spectral subtraction you 're trying to get rid of this excess energy . uh , you know , it 's not supposed to be there . uh and , uh , this is sort of adjusting it for for a lot of different levels . and then they have s they have some kind of , uh , a floor or something , grad e: hmm . professor b: so if it gets too low you do n't do n't do it . phd a: hmm . professor b: and they they claimed very nice results , phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: so is this a histogram across different frequency bins ? professor b: and phd a: or ? professor b: um , i think this i you know , i do n't remember that . do you remember ? phd d: i think they have , yeah , different histograms . i uh something like one per frequency band , professor b: one phd a: so , one histogram per frequency bin . professor b: one per critical phd d: or but i did yeah , i guess . phd a: and that 's phd d: but i should read the paper . i just went through the poster quickly , professor b: yeah . phd a: so th professor b: and i do n't remember whether it was filter bank things phd a: oh . phd d: and i did n't professor b: or whether it was fft bins phd a: huh . professor b: or phd a: and and that that , um , histogram represents the different energy levels that have been seen at that frequency ? professor b: i do n't remember that . and how often they you 've seen them . yeah . phd a: uh - huh . grad e: hmm . professor b: yeah . and they do they said that they could do it for the test so you do n't have to change the training . you just do a measurement over the training . and then , uh , for testing , uh , you can do it for one per utterance . even relatively short utterances . and they claim it it works pretty well . phd a: so they , uh is the idea that you you run a test utterance through some histogram generation thing and then you compare the histograms and that tells you what to do to the utterance to make it more like ? professor b: i guess in pri yeah . in principle . phd a: i see . professor b: i did n't read carefully how they actually implemented it , phd a: hmm . yeah . professor b: whether it was some , uh , on - line thing , or whether it was a second pass , or what . but but they that that was sort of the idea . phd a: hmm . professor b: so that that seemed , you know , different . we 're sort of curious about , uh , what are some things that are , u u um , @ @ { comment } conceptually quite different from what we 've done . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: cuz we you know , one thing that w that , uh , stephane and sunil seemed to find , uh , was , you know , they could actually make a unified piece of software that handled a range of different things that people were talking about , and it was really just sort of setting of different constants . and it would turn , you know , one thing into another . it 'd turn wiener filtering into spectral subtraction , or whatever . but there 's other things that we 're not doing . so , we 're not making any use of pitch , uh , uh , which again , might might be important , uh , because the stuff between the harmonics is probably a schmutz . and and the , uh , transcribers will have fun with that . uh and , um , the , uh , stuff at the harmonics is n't so much . and and , uh and we there 's this overall idea of really sort of matching the the hi distributions somehow . uh , not just , um , um not just subtracting off your estimate of the noise . so . so i guess , uh , guenter 's gon na play around with some of these things now over this next period , phd d: uh , i dunno . professor b: or ? phd d: i do n't have feedback from him , but professor b: yeah . phd d: i guess he 's gon na , maybe professor b: well , he 's got it anyway , so he can . phd d: yeah . professor b: so potentially if he came up with something that was useful , like a diff a better noise estimation module or something , he could ship it to you guys u up there phd d: uh - huh . professor b: and phd d: yeah . professor b: we could put it in . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . yeah . so , that 's good . so , why do n't we just , uh , um i think starting starting a w couple weeks from now , especially if you 're not gon na be around for a while , we 'll we 'll be shifting more over to some other other territory . but , uh , uh , { comment } uh , n not not so much in this meeting about aurora , but but , uh , uh , maybe just , uh , quickly today about maybe you could just say a little bit about what you 've been talking about with michael . and and then barry can say something about what { comment } what we 're talking about . grad c: ok . so michael kleinschmidt , who 's a phd student from germany , showed up this week . he 'll be here for about six months . and he 's done some work using an auditory model of , um , human hearing , and using that f uh , to generate speech recognition features . and he did work back in germany with , um , a toy recognition system using , um , isolated digit recognition as the task . it was actually just a single - layer neural network that classified words classified digits , in fact . um , and he tried that on i think on some aurora data and got results that he thought seemed respectable . and he w he 's coming here to u u use it on a uh , a real speech recognition system . so i 'll be working with him on that . and , um , maybe i should say a little more about these features , although i do n't understand them that well . the i think it 's a two - stage idea . and , um , the first stage of these features correspond to what 's called the peripheral auditory system . and i guess that is like a filter bank with a compressive nonlinearity . and i 'm - i 'm not sure what we have @ @ in there that is n't already modeled in something like , um , plp . i should learn more about that . and then the second stage is , um , the most different thing , i think , from what we usually do . it 's , um it computes features which are , um , based on sort of like based on diffe different w um , wavelet basis functions used to analyze the input . so th he uses analysis functions called gabor functions , um , which have a certain extent , um , in time and in frequency . and the idea is these are used to sample , um , the signal in a represented as a time - frequency representation . so you 're sampling some piece of this time - frequency plane . and , um , that , um , is is interesting , cuz , @ @ for for one thing , you could use it , um , in a a multi - scale way . you could have these instead of having everything like we use a twenty - five millisecond or so analysis window , typically , um , and that 's our time scale for features , but you could using this , um , basis function idea , you could have some basis functions which have a lot longer time scale and , um , some which have a lot shorter , and so it would be like a set of multi - scale features . so he 's interested in , um th - this is because it 's , um there are these different parameters for the shape of these basis functions , um there are a lot of different possible basis functions . and so he he actually does an optimization procedure to choose an an optimal set of basis functions out of all the possible ones . phd a: hmm . h what does he do to choose those ? grad c: the method he uses is kind of funny is , { comment } um , he starts with he has a set of m of them . um , he and then he uses that to classify i mean , he t he tries , um , using just m minus one of them . so there are m possible subsets of this length - m vector . he tries classifying , using each of the m possible sub - vectors . phd d: hmm . grad c: whichever sub - vector , um , works the the best , i guess , he says the the fe feature that did n't use was the most useless feature , professor b: y yeah . gets thrown out . yeah . grad c: so we 'll throw it out and we 're gon na randomly select another feature from the set of possible basis functions . phd a: hmm ! professor b: yeah . phd a: so it 's a professor b: so i so it 's actuall phd a: it 's a little bit like a genetic algorithm or something in a way . professor b: well , it 's it 's much simpler . grad e: it 's like a greedy professor b: but it 's but it 's uh , it 's there 's a lot number of things i like about it , let me just say . phd a: greedy . professor b: so , first thing , well , you 're absolutely right . i mean , i i in truth , both pieces of this are have their analogies in stuff we already do . but it 's a different take at how to approach it and potentially one that 's m maybe a bit more systematic than what we 've done , uh , and a b a bit more inspiration from from auditory things . so it 's so i think it 's a neat thing to try . the primary features , um , are in fact yeah , essentially , it 's it 's , uh , you know , plp or or mel cepstrum , or something like that . you 've you 've got some , uh , compression . we always have some compression . we always have some you know , the the the kind of filter bank with a kind of quasi - log scaling . um , if you put in if you also include the rasta in it i rasta the filtering being done in the log domain has an agc - like , uh , characteristic , which , you know , people typi typically put in these kind of , uh , um , uh , auditory front - ends . so it 's very , very similar , uh , but it 's not exactly the same . um , i would agree that the second one is is somewhat more different but , um , it 's mainly different in that the things that we have been doing like that have been um , had a different kind of motivation and have ended up with different kinds of constraints . so , for instance , if you look at the lda rasta stuff , you know , basically what they do is they they look at the different eigenvectors out of the lda and they form filters out of it . right ? and those filters have different , uh , kinds of temporal extents and temporal characteristics . and so in fact they 're multi - scale . but , they 're not sort of systematically multi - scale , like `` let 's start here and go to there , and go to there , and go to there `` , and so forth . it 's more like , you run it on this , you do discriminant analysis , and you find out what 's helpful . grad c: i it 's multi - scale because you use several of these in parallel , professor b: yeah . they use several of them . grad c: is that right ? of professor b: yeah . grad c: ok . professor b: uh , i mean , you do n't have to but but but , uh , hynek has . um , but it 's also , uh hyn - when hynek 's had people do this kind of lda analysis , they 've done it on frequency direction and they 've done it on the time direction . i think he may have had people sometimes doing it on both simultaneously some two - d and that would be the closest to these gabor function kind of things . uh , but i do n't think they 've done that much of that . and , uh , the other thing that 's interesting the the , uh the feature selection thing , it 's a simple method , but i kinda like it . um , there 's a a old , old method for feature selection . i mean , eh , uh , i remember people referring to it as old when i was playing with it twenty years ago , so i know it 's pretty old , uh , called stepwise linear discriminant analysis in which you which i think it 's used in social sciences a lot . so , you you you you pick the best feature . and then you take y you find the next feature that 's the best in combination with it . and then so on and so on . and what what michael 's describing seems to me much , much better , because the problem with the stepwise discriminant analysis is that you do n't know that you know , if you 've picked the right set of features . just because something 's a good feature does n't mean that you should be adding it . so , um , uh , here at least you 're starting off with all of them , and you 're throwing out useless features . i think that 's that seems , uh that seems like a lot better idea . uh , you 're always looking at things in combination with other features . um , so the only thing is , of course , there 's this this artificial question of of , uh , exactly how you how you a how you assess it and if if your order had been different in throwing them out . i mean , it still is n't necessarily really optimal , but it seems like a pretty good heuristic . so i th i think it 's it 's i think it 's kinda neat stuff . grad e: hmm . professor b: and and and , uh , the thing that i wanted to to add to it also was to have us use this in a multi - stream way . grad e: hmm . professor b: um , so so that , um , when you come up with these different things , and these different functions , you do n't necessarily just put them all into one huge vector , but perhaps you have some of them in one stream and some of them in another stream , and so forth . and , um , um , { comment } um and we 've also talked a little bit about , uh , uh , shihab shamma 's stuff , in which you the way you look at it is that there 's these different mappings and some of them emphasize , uh , upward moving , uh , energy and fre and frequency . and some are emphasizing downward and fast things and slow things and and so forth . so . so there 's a bunch of stuff to look at . but , uh , i think we 're sorta gon na start off with what he , uh , came here with and branch out branch out from there . and his advisor is here , too , at the same time . so , he 'll be another interesting source of wisdom . grad e: hmm . professor b: so . grad e: as as we were talking about this i was thinking , um , whether there 's a relationship between um , between michael 's approach to , uh , some some sort of optimal brain damage or optimal brain surgeon on the neural nets . professor b: yeah . grad c: hmm . grad e: so , like , if we have , um we have our we have our rasta features and and presumably the neural nets are are learning some sort of a nonlinear mapping , uh , from the the the features to to this this probability posterior space . professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: right ? and , um and each of the hidden units is learning some sort of some sort of some sort of pattern . right ? and it could be , like like these , um these auditory patterns that michael is looking at . and then when you 're looking at the the , uh , um , the best features , you know , you can take out you can do the do this , uh , brain surgery by taking out , um , hidden units that do n't really help at all . professor b: mm - hmm . or the or features . grad e: and this is k sorta like professor b: right ? grad e: yeah . professor b: i mean , y actually , you make me think a a very important point here is that , um , if we a again try to look at how is this different from what we 're already doing , uh , there 's a a , uh a nasty argument that could be made th that it 's it 's not different at at all , because , uh if you ignore the the selection part because we are going into a a very powerful , uh , nonlinearity that , uh , in fact is combining over time and frequency , and is coming up with its own you know , better than gabor functions its , you know , neural net functions , grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: its { comment } whatever it finds to be best . grad c: professor b: um , so you could argue that in fact it but i i do n't actually believe that argument because i know that , um , you can , uh computing features is useful , even though in principle you have n't added anything in fact , you subtracted something , from the original waveform you know , uh , if you 've you 've processed it in some way you 've typically lost something some information . and so , you 've lost information and yet it does better with with features than it does with the waveform . so , uh , i i know that i sometimes it 's useful to to constrain things . so that 's why it really seems like the constraint in in all this stuff it 's the constraints that are actually what matters . because if it was n't the constraints that mattered , then we would 've completely solved this problem long ago , because long ago we already knew how to put waveforms into powerful statistical mechanisms . so . phd d: yeah . well , if we had infinite processing power and data , { comment } i guess , using the waveform could grad e: right . professor b: yeah uh , then it would work . yeah , i agree . yeah . there 's the problem . phd d: so , that 's professor b: yeah . then it would work . but but , i mean , i it 's with finite of those things i mean , uh , we we have done experiments where we literally have put waveforms in and and and , uh , phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: we kept the number of parameters the same and so forth , and it used a lot of training data . and it and it it , uh not infinite but a lot , and then compared to the number parameters and it it , uh it just does n't do nearly as well . so , anyway the point is that you want to suppress phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: it 's not just having the maximum information , you want to suppress , uh , the aspects of the input signal that are not helpful for for the discrimination you 're trying to make . so . so maybe just briefly , uh grad e: well , that sort of segues into what what i 'm doing . professor b: yeah . grad e: um , so , uh , the big picture is k um , come up with a set of , uh , intermediate categories , then build intermediate category classifiers , then do recognition , and , um , improve speech recognition in that way . um , so right now i 'm in in the phase where i 'm looking at at , um , deciding on a initial set of intermediate categories . and i 'm looking for data data - driven methods that can help me find , um , a set of intermediate categories of speech that , uh , will help me to discriminate later down the line . and one of the ideas , um , that was to take a take a neural net train train an ordinary neural net to uh , to learn the posterior probabilities of phones . and so , um , at the end of the day you have this neural net and it has hidden hidden units . and each of these hidden units is um , is learning some sort of pattern . and so , um , what what are these patterns ? phd a: hmm . grad e: i do n't know . um , and i 'm gon na to try to to look at those patterns to to see , um , from those patterns uh , presumably those are important patterns for discriminating between phone classes . and maybe maybe some , uh , intermediate categories can come from just looking at the patterns of um , that the neural net learns . professor b: be - before you get on the next part l let me just point out that s there 's there 's a a pretty nice { comment } relationship between what you 're talking about doing and what you 're talking about doing there . right ? grad e: yeah . professor b: so , it seems to me that , you know , if you take away the the the difference of this primary features , and , say , you use as we had talked about maybe doing you use p - rasta - plp or something for the the primary features , um , then this feature discovery , uh , uh , thing is just what he 's talking about doing , too , except that he 's talking about doing them in order to discover intermediate categories that correspond to these uh , uh , what these sub - features are are are are showing you . and , um , the other difference is that , um , he 's doing this in a in a multi - band setting , which means that he 's constraining himself to look across time in some f relatively limited , uh , uh , spectral extent . right ? and whereas in in this case you 're saying `` let 's just do it unconstrained `` . so they 're they 're really pretty related and maybe they 'll be at some point where we 'll see the the connections a little better and connect them . grad c: hmm . grad e: mm - hmm . um . yeah , so so that 's the that 's the first part uh , one one of the ideas to get at some some patterns of intermediate categories . um , the other one was , um , to , uh , come up with a a a model { comment } um , a graphical model , that treats the intermediate categories as hidden hidden variables , latent variables , that we do n't know anything about , but that through , um , s statistical training and the em algorithm , um , at the end of the day , we have , um we have learned something about these these latent , um latent variables which happen to correspond to intermediate categories . um . yeah , and so those are the the two directions that i 'm i 'm looking into right now . and , uh , um yeah . i guess that 's that 's it . professor b: ok . should we do our digits and get ou get our treats ? grad e: oh , tea time ? professor b: yeah . it 's kind of like , you know , the little rats with the little thing dropping down to them . phd a: that 's ri professor b: we do the digits and then we get our treats . grad e: oops . phd a: ok .

the team was filtering out white noise from the digit task using lpc . the concern was that lpc was not a great representation of speech . the lpc was adding degradation .

what did the professor think about lpc ? </s> phd a: eh , we should be going . professor b: so ne next week we 'll have , uh , both birger and , uh , mike michael michael kleinschmidt and birger kollmeier will join us . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: um , and you 're you 're probably gon na go up in a couple three weeks or so ? when d when are you thinking of going up to , uh , ogi ? phd d: yeah , like , uh , not next week but maybe the week after . professor b: ok . good . so at least we 'll have one meeting with yo with you still around , and and phd d: uh - huh . professor b: that 's good . phd d: um , yeah . well , maybe we can start with this . mmm . professor b: all today , huh ? phd d: yeah . professor b: oh . phd d: um . yeah . so there was this conference call this morning , um , and the only topic on the agenda was just to discuss a and to come at uh , to get a decision about this latency problem . professor b: no , this i 'm sorry , this is a conference call between different aurora people or just ? phd d: uh , yeah . it 's the conference call between the aurora , uh , group . professor b: it 's the main conference call . ok . phd d: uh , yeah . there were like two hours of discussions , and then suddenly , uh , people were tired , i guess , and they decided on a number , two hundred and twenty , um , included e including everything . uh , it means that it 's like eighty milliseconds less than before . professor b: and what are we sitting at currently ? phd d: um . professor b: yeah . phd d: so , currently d uh , we have system that has two hundred and thirty . so , that 's fine . professor b: two thirty . phd d: yeah . so that 's the system that 's described on the second point of this document . professor b: so it 's we have to reduce it by ten milliseconds somehow . phd d: yeah . but that 's yeah . that 's not a problem , i i guess . professor b: ok . w it 's it 's p d primary primarily determined by the vad at this point , phd d: um . professor b: right ? phd d: yeah . professor b: s so we can make the vad a little shorter . phd d: yeah . at this point , yeah . professor b: that 's phd d: yeah , uh - huh . professor b: yeah . we probably should do that pretty soon so that we do n't get used to it being a certain way . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: yeah . phd d: um . professor b: was hari on the on the phone ? phd d: yeah , sure . professor b: ok . phd d: well , it was mainly a discussion between hari and david , professor b: hmm . phd d: who was like professor b: yeah . phd d: uh , professor b: ok . phd d: mmm uh , yeah . so , the second thing is the system that we have currently . oh , yes . we have , like , a system that gives sixty - two percent improvement , but if you want to stick to the this latency well , it has a latency of two thirty , but if you want also to stick to the number of features that limit it to sixty , then we go a little bit down but it 's still sixty - one percent . uh , and if we drop the tandem network , then we have fifty - seven percent . professor b: uh , but th the two th two thirty includes the tandem network ? phd d: yeah . professor b: ok . and i is the tandem network , uh , small enough that it will fit on the terminal size in terms of ? phd d: uh , no , i do n't think so . professor b: no . phd d: no . professor b: ok . phd d: it 's still in terms of computation , if we use , like , their way of computing the the maps the the mips , i think it fits , professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: but it 's , uh , m mainly a problem of memory . professor b: right . phd d: um , and i do n't know how much this can be discussed or not , because it 's it could be in rom , so it 's maybe not that expensive . but professor b: ho - how much memory d ? h how many ? phd d: i d i d uh , i i do n't kn remember exactly , but uh . yeah , i c i i have to check that . professor b: yeah . i 'd like to see that , cuz maybe i could think a little bit about it , cuz we maybe we could make it a little smaller or i mean , it 'd be it 'd be neat if we could fit it all . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: uh , i 'd like to see how far off we are . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: but i guess it 's still within their rules to have have it on the , uh , t uh , server side . right ? phd d: yeah . yeah . professor b: ok . phd d: mmm . professor b: and this is still ? uh , well , y you 're saying here . i c i should just let you go on . phd d: yeah , there were small tricks to make this tandem network work . uh , mmm , and one of the trick was to , um , use some kind of hierarchical structure where the silence probability is not computed by the final tandem network but by the vad network . um , so apparently it looks better when , uh , we use the silence probability from the vad network professor b: huh . phd d: and we re - scale the other probabilities by one minus the silence probability . um . so it 's some kind of hierarchical thing , uh , that sunil also tried , um , on spine and apparently it helps a little bit also . mmm . and . yeah , the reason w why why we did that with the silence probability was that , um professor b: could ? uh , uh , i 'm i 'm really sorry . can you repeat what you were saying about the silence probability ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: i only my mind was some phd d: yeah . so there is the tandem network that e e e estimates the phone probabilities professor b: yeah . yeah . phd d: and the silence probabilities also . professor b: right . phd d: and things get better when , instead of using the silence probability computed by the tandem network , we use the silence probability , uh , given by the vad network , professor b: oh . phd d: um , professor b: the vad network is ? phd d: which is smaller , but maybe , um so we have a network for the vad which has one hundred hidden units , and the tandem network has five hundred . um . so it 's smaller but th the silence probability from this network seems , uh , better . professor b: ok . phd d: mmm . uh . well , it looks strange , but professor b: yeah . but phd d: but it professor b: ok . phd d: maybe it 's has something to do to the fact that we do n't have infinite training data and professor b: we do n't ? phd d: well ! and so well , things are not optimal professor b: yeah . phd d: and mmm grad e: are you you were going to say why what made you wh what led you to do that . phd d: yeah . uh , there was a p { comment } problem that we observed , um , that there was there were , like , many insertions in the in the system . professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: mmm . professor b: hmm . phd d: actually plugging in the tandem network was increasing , i i i think , the number of insertions . professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: and , um so it looked strange and then just using the the other silence probability helps . mmm . um yeah . the next thing we will do is train this tandem on more data . professor b: so , you know , in a way what it might i it 's it 's a little bit like combining knowledge sources . phd d: um professor b: right ? because the fact that you have these two nets that are different sizes means they behave a little differently , phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: they find different things . and , um , if you have , um f the distribution that you have from , uh , f speech sounds is w { comment } sort of one source of knowledge . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: and this is and rather than just taking one minus that to get the other , which is essentially what 's happening , you have this other source of knowledge that you 're putting in there . so you make use of both of them in in what you 're ending up with . maybe it 's better . phd d: yeah . professor b: anyway , you can probably justify anything if what 's use phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd d: and and the features are different also . i mean , the vad does n't use the same features there are . professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: hmm . professor b: oh ! phd d: um professor b: that might be the key , actually . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: cuz you were really thinking about speech versus nonspeech for that . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: that 's a good point . phd d: mmm . uh . well , there are other things that we should do but , um , it requires time and we have ideas , like so , these things are like hav having a better vad . uh , we have some ideas about that . it would probably implies working a little bit on features that are more suited to a voice activity detection . professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: working on the second stream . of course we have ideas on this also , but w we need to try different things and uh , but their noise estimation , um uh professor b: i mean , back on the second stream , i mean , that 's something we 've talked about for a while . i mean , i think that 's certainly a high hope . phd d: yeah . mmm . professor b: um , so we have this this default idea about just using some sort of purely spectral thing ? phd d: uh , yeah . professor b: for a second stream ? phd d: but , um , we we did a first try with this , and it it clearly hurts . professor b: but , uh , how was the stream combined ? phd d: uh . it was c it was just combined , um , by the acoustic model . so there was , no neural network for the moment . professor b: right . so , i mean , if you just had a second stream that was just spectral and had another neural net and combined there , that that , uh , might be good . phd d: mm - hmm . yeah . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mmm . yeah . um yeah , and the other thing , that noise estimation and th um , maybe try to train uh , the training data for the t tandem network , right now , is like i is using the noises from the aurora task and i think that people might , um , try to argue about that because then in some cases we have the same noises in for training the network than the noises that are used for testing , professor b: right . phd d: and so we have t n uh , to try to get rid of these this problem . professor b: yeah . maybe you just put in some other noise , something that 's different . phd d: mm - hmm . yeah . professor b: i mean , it it 's probably helpful to have have a little noise there . but it may be something else phd d: uh - huh . professor b: th at least you could say it was . phd d: yeah . professor b: and then if it does n't hurt too much , though . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: yeah . that 's a good idea . phd d: um . yeah . the last thing is that i think we are getting close to human performance . well , that 's something i would like to investigate further , but , um , i did , like , um i did , uh , listen to the m most noisy utterances of the speechdat - car italian and tried to transcribe them . and , um professor b: so this is a particular human . this is this i this is stephane . phd d: yeah . so that 's that 's grad e: st - stephane . professor b: yeah . phd d: that 's the the flaw of the experiment . this is just i j { comment } it 's just one subject , professor b: yeah . grad e: getting close . phd d: but but still , uh , what happens is is that , uh , the digit error rate on this is around one percent , professor b: yeah . phd d: while our system is currently at seven percent . um , but what happens also is that if i listen to the , um a re - synthesized version of the speech and i re - synthesized this using a white noise that 's filtered by a lpc , uh , filter professor b: yeah . phd d: um , well , you can argue , that , uh that this is not speech , professor b: yeah . phd d: so the ear is not trained to recognize this . but s actually it sound like whispering , so we are professor b: well , i mean , it 's phd d: eh professor b: there 's two problems there . i mean i mean , so so the first is that by doing lpc - twelve with synthesized speech w like you 're saying , uh , it 's i i you 're you 're adding other degradation . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: right ? so it 's not just the noise but you 're adding in fact some degradation because it 's only an approximation . um , and the second thing is which is m maybe more interesting is that , um , { comment } if you do it with whispered speech , you get this number . what if you had done analysis { comment } re - synthesis and taken the pitch as well ? alright ? so now you put the pitch in . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: what would the percentage be then ? phd d: um professor b: see , that 's the question . so , you see , if it 's if it 's if it 's , uh let 's say it 's back down to one percent again . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: that would say at least for people , having the pitch is really , really important , which would be interesting in itself . um , phd d: uh , yeah . but professor b: if i on the other hand , if it stayed up near five percent , then i 'd say `` boy , lpc n twelve is pretty crummy `` . you know ? phd d: uh - huh . professor b: so i i i 'm not sure i 'm not sure how we can conclude from this anything about that our system is close to the human performance . phd d: ye yeah . well , the point is that eh l ey the point is that , um , what i what i listened to when i re - synthesized the lp - the lpc - twelve spectrum is in a way what the system , uh , is hearing , cuz @ @ all the all the , um , excitation all the well , the excitation is is not taken into account . that 's what we do with our system . and professor b: well , you 're not doing the lpc phd d: in this case professor b: i mean , so so what if you did a phd d: well , it 's not lpc , sure , professor b: what if you did lpc - twenty ? phd d: but lpc ? professor b: twenty . right ? i mean , th the thing is lpc is not a a really great representation of speech . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: so , all i 'm saying is that you have in addition to the w the , uh , removal of pitch , you also are doing , uh , a particular parameterization , phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: which , um , uh phd d: mmm . professor b: uh , so , let 's see , how would you do ? so , fo phd d: but that 's that 's what we do with our systems . and professor b: no . actually , we d we we do n't , because we do we do , uh , uh , mel filter bank , for instance . right ? phd d: yeah , but is it that is it that different , i mean ? professor b: um , i do n't know what mel , uh , based synthesis would sound like , phd d: i professor b: but certainly the spectra are quite different . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: could n't you t could n't you , um , test the human performance on just the original audio ? phd d: mm - hmm . this is the one percent number . professor b: yeah , it 's one percent . he 's trying to remove the pitch information phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: oh , oh . ok , phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: i see . professor b: and make it closer to what to what we 're seeing as the feature vectors . phd a: ok . so , y uh , your performance was one percent , and then when you re - synthesize with lpc - twelve it went to five . phd d: uh - huh . yeah . phd a: ok . professor b: i mean we were we were j it it it 's a little bit still apples and oranges because we are choosing these features in order to be the best for recognition . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: and , um , i if you listen to them they still might not be very even if you made something closer to what we 're gon na i it might not sound very good . phd d: yeah . professor b: uh , and i the degradation from that might might actually make it even harder , uh , to understand than the lpc - twelve . so all i 'm saying is that the lpc - twelve puts in synthesis puts in some degradation that 's not what we 're used to hearing , phd d: uh - huh . professor b: and is , um it 's not it 's not just a question of how much information is there , as if you will always take maximum advantage of any information that 's presented to you . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: in fact , you hear some things better than others . and so it it is n't phd a: but professor b: but , i agree that it says that , uh , the kind of information that we 're feeding it is probably , um , um , a little bit , um , minimal . there 's definitely some things that we 've thrown away . and that 's why i was saying it might be interesting if you an interesting test of this would be if you if you actually put the pitch back in . so , you just extract it from the actual speech and put it back in , and see does that is that does that make the difference ? if that if that takes it down to one percent again , then you 'd say `` ok , it 's it 's in fact having , um , not just the spectral envelope but also the also the the pitch that , uh , { comment } @ @ { comment } has the information that people can use , anyway . `` phd d: uh - huh . mmm . phd a: but from this it 's pretty safe to say that the system is with either two to seven percent away from the performance of a human . right ? so it 's somewhere in that range . professor b: well , or it 's it 's phd a: two two to six percent . professor b: yeah , so it 's it 's one point four times , uh , to , uh , seven times the error , phd d: to f seven times , yeah . professor b: for stephane . phd d: um . professor b: so , uh uh , but i i do n't know . i do do n't wan na take you away from other things . phd d: but { comment } but professor b: but that 's that 's what that 's the first thing that i would be curious about , is , you know , i i when you we phd d: but the signal itself is like a mix of um , of a a periodic sound and , @ @ { comment } uh , unvoiced sound , and the noise professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: which is mostly , uh , noise . i mean not periodic . so , what what do you mean exactly by putting back the pitch in ? because phd a: in the lpc synthesis ? i think professor b: yeah . you did lpc re - synthesis phd d: i professor b: l pc re - synthesis . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: so , uh and you did it with a noise source , rather than with with a s periodic source . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: right ? so if you actually did real re - synthesis like you do in an lpc synthesizer , where it 's unvoiced you use noise , where it 's voiced you use , uh , periodic pulses . phd d: um . professor b: right ? phd d: yeah , but it 's neither purely voiced or purely unvoiced . esp - especially because there is noise . professor b: well , it might be hard to do it phd d: so professor b: but it but but the thing is that if you um , if you detect that there 's periodic s strong periodic components , then you can use a voiced voice thing . phd d: oh . uh - huh . yeah . professor b: yeah . i mean , it 's probably not worth your time . it 's it 's a side thing and and and there 's a lot to do . phd d: uh - huh , yeah . professor b: but i 'm i 'm just saying , at least as a thought experiment , that 's what i would wan na test . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: uh , i wan would wan na drive it with a a a two - source system rather than a than a one - source system . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: and then that would tell you whether in fact it 's cuz we 've talked about , like , this harmonic tunneling or other things that people have done based on pitch , maybe that 's really a key element . maybe maybe , uh , uh , without that , it 's it 's not possible to do a whole lot better than we 're doing . that that could be . phd d: yeah . that 's what i was thinking by doing this es experiment , professor b: yeah . phd d: like mmm . evi professor b: but , i mean , other than that , i do n't think it 's i mean , other than the pitch de information , it 's hard to imagine that there 's a whole lot more in the signal that that , uh that we 're throwing away that 's important . phd d: yeah , but yeah . mm - hmm . yeah , right . professor b: right ? i mean , we 're using a fair number of filters in the filter bank and uh phd d: mm - hmm . uh , yeah . professor b: hmm . yeah . phd d: um . professor b: yeah . that look phd d: yeah , that 's it . professor b: yeah . that 's that 's i mean , one one percent is sort of what i would i would figure . if somebody was paying really close attention , you might get i would actually think that if , you looked at people on various times of the day and different amounts of attention , you might actually get up to three or four percent error on digits . uh , uh phd d: mm - hmm . um . professor b: so it 's you know , we 're not we 're not incredibly far off . on the other hand , with any of these numbers except maybe the one percent , it 's st it 's not actually usable in a commercial system with a full telephone number or something . phd d: uh - huh . yeah . at these noise levels . professor b: yeah . phd d: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: right . phd d: well , yeah . these numbers , i mean . mmm . professor b: good . um , while we 're still on aurora stuff maybe you can talk a little about the status with the , uh , wall street journal things for it . phd a: so i 've , um , downloaded , uh , a couple of things from mississippi state . um , one is their software their , uh , lvcsr system . downloaded the latest version of that . got it compiled and everything . um , downloaded the scripts . they wrote some scripts that sort of make it easy to run the system on the wall street journal , uh , data . um , so i have n't run the scripts yet . uh , i 'm waiting there was one problem with part of it and i wrote a note to joe asking him about it . so i 'm waiting to hear from him . but , um , i did print something out just to give you an idea about where the system is . uh , they on their web site they , uh , did this little table of where their system performs relative to other systems that have done this this task . and , um , the mississippi state system using a bigram grammar , uh , is at about eight point two percent . other comparable systems from , uh were getting from , uh , like six point nine , six point eight percent . so they 're professor b: this is on clean test set ? phd a: this is on clean on clean stuff . yeah . they they 've started a table where they 're showing their results on various different noise conditions but they they do n't have a whole lot of it filled in and and i did n't notice until after i 'd printed it out that , um , they do n't say here what these different testing conditions are . professor b: phd a: you actually have to click on it on the web site to see them . so i i do n't know what those numbers really mean . professor b: what kind of numbers are they getting on these on the test conditions ? phd a: well , see , i was a little confused because on this table , i 'm the they 're showing word error rate . but on this one , i i do n't know if these are word error rates because they 're really big . so , under condition one here it 's ten percent . then under three it goes to sixty - four point six percent . professor b: yeah , that 's probably aurora . phd a: yeah . professor b: i mean phd a: so m i guess maybe they 're error rates but they 're , uh they 're really high . professor b: i i i do n't find that surpri phd a: so professor b: i mean , we w what 's what 's some of the lower error rates on on on uh , some of the higher error rates on , uh , some of these w uh , uh , highly mismatched difficult conditions ? what 's a ? phd d: uh . yeah , it 's around fifteen to twenty percent . phd a: correct ? phd d: and the baseline , eh phd a: accuracy ? phd d: uh , error rate . professor b: yeah . phd d: twenty percent error rate , professor b: yeah . so twenty percent error rate on digits . phd d: and phd a: oh , oh , on digits . professor b: so if you 're doing so if you 're doing , phd d: and phd a: yeah . phd d: on digits . phd a: ok . professor b: you know , phd d: and this is so so still the baseline . professor b: sixty - thousand phd d: right ? phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah , and if you 're saying sixty - thousand word recognition , getting sixty percent error on some of these noise condition not at all surprising . phd a: yeah . phd d: the baseline is sixty percent also on digits , phd a: oh , is it ? phd d: on the m more mismatched conditions . phd a: ok . professor b: yeah . phd d: so . phd a: so , yeah , that 's probably what it is then . yeah . so they have a lot of different conditions that they 're gon na be filling out . professor b: it 's a bad sign when you looking at the numbers , you ca n't tell whether it 's accuracy or error rate . phd a: yeah . yeah . it 's it 's gon na be hard . um , they 're i i 'm still waiting for them to release the , um , multi - cpu version of their scripts , cuz right now their script only handles processing on a single cpu , which will take a really long time to run . so . but their s professor b: this is for the training ? phd a: uh i beli yes , for the training also . and , um , they 're supposed to be coming out with it any time , professor b: ok . phd a: the multi - cpu one . so , as soon as they get that , then i 'll i 'll grab those too professor b: ok . phd a: and so w professor b: yeah . cuz we have to get started , phd a: yeah . professor b: cuz it 's cuz , uh , phd a: yeah . i 'll go ahead and try to run it though with just the single cpu one , professor b: if the phd a: and i they they , um , released like a smaller data set that you can use that only takes like sixteen hours to train and stuff . so i can i can run it on that just to make sure that the the thing works and everything . professor b: oh ! good . yeah . cuz we 'll grad e: hmm . professor b: i guess the actual evaluation will be in six weeks or something . so . is that about right you think ? phd d: uh , we do n't know yet , i i think . professor b: really , we do n't know ? phd d: uh - huh . um . phd a: it was n't on the conference call this morning ? professor b: hmm . phd d: no . phd a: hmm . did they say anything on the conference call about , um , how the wall street journal part of the test was going to be run ? because i i thought i remembered hearing that some sites were saying that they did n't have the compute to be able to run the wall street journal stuff at their place , phd d: no . mmm . phd a: so there was some talk about having mississippi state run the systems for them . and i did did that come up at all ? phd d: uh , no . well , this first , this was not the point at all of this the meeting today phd a: oh , ok . phd d: and , professor b: some phd d: uh , frankly , i do n't know because i d { comment } did n't read also the most recent mails about the large - vocabulary task . but , uh , did you do you still , uh , get the mails ? you 're not on the mailing list or what ? phd a: hmm - mm . the only , um , mail i get is from mississippi state phd d: uh - huh . phd a: so phd d: oh , yeah . so we should have a look at this . phd a: about their system . i i do n't get any mail about professor b: i have to say , there 's uh something funny - sounding about saying that one of these big companies does n't have enough cup compute power do that , so they 're having to have it done by mississippi state . phd a: yeah . professor b: it just just sounds funny . phd a: yeah . it does . professor b: but , phd a: yeah . i 'm i 'm wondering about that professor b: anyway . phd a: because there 's this whole issue about , you know , simple tuning parameters , like word insertion penalties . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: and whether or not those are going to be tuned or not , and { comment } so . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: i mean , it makes a big difference . if you change your front - end , you know , the scale is completely can be completely different , so . it seems reasonable that that at least should be tweaked to match the front - end . but phd d: you did n't get any answer from joe ? phd a: i did , but joe said , you know , `` what you 're saying makes sense phd d: uh - huh . phd a: and i do n't know `` . so he does n't know what the answer is . phd d: uh - huh . phd a: i mean , that 's th we had this back and forth a little bit about , you know , are sites gon na are you gon na run this data for different sites ? and , well , if if mississippi state runs it , then maybe they 'll do a little optimization on that parameter , and , uh but then he was n't asked to run it for anybody . so i it 's it 's just not clear yet what 's gon na happen . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: uh , he 's been putting this stuff out on their web site and for people to grab but i have n't heard too much about what 's happening . professor b: so it could be i mean , chuck and i had actually talked about this a couple times , and and over some lunches , i think , that , um , one thing that we might wan na do the - there 's this question about , you know , what do you wan na scale ? suppose y you ca n't adjust these word insertion penalties and so forth , so you have to do everything at the level of the features . what could you do ? and , uh , one thing i had suggested at an earlier time was maybe some sort of scaling , some sort of root or or something of the , um , uh , features . but the problem with that is that is n't quite the same , it occurred to me later , because what you really want to do is scale the , uh , @ @ { comment } the range of the likelihoods rather than phd d: nnn , the dist yeah . professor b: but , what might get at something similar , it just occurred to me , is kind of an intermediate thing is because we do this strange thing that we do with the tandem system , at least in that system what you could do is take the , um , uh , values that come out of the net , which are something like log probabilities , and scale those . and then , uh , um then at least those things would have the right values or the right the right range . and then that goes into the rest of it and then that 's used as observations . so it 's it 's , um , another way to do it . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . but , these values are not directly used as probabilities anyway . professor b: i know they 're not . phd d: so there are there is professor b: i know they 're not . but but , you know so because what we 're doing is pretty strange and complicated , we do n't really know what the effect is at the other end . phd d: uh - huh . mm - hmm . professor b: so , um , my thought was maybe i mean , they 're not used as probabilities , but the log probabilities we 're taking advantage of the fact that something like log probabilities has more of a gaussian shape than gaus - than probabilities , and so we can model them better . so , in a way we 're taking advantage of the fact that they 're probabilities , because they 're this quantity that looks kind of gaussian when you take it 's log . so , { comment } uh , maybe maybe it would have a a reasonable effect to do that . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: i d i do n't know . but , i mean , i guess we still have n't had a a ruling back on this . and we may end up being in a situation where we just you know really ca n't change the word insertion penalty . but the other thing we could do is also we could i mean , this this may not help us , uh , in the evaluation but it might help us in our understanding at least . we might , just run it with different insper insertion penalties , and show that , uh , `` well , ok , not changing it , playing the rules the way you wanted , we did this . but in fact if we did that , it made a a big difference . `` phd a: i wonder if it it might be possible to , uh , simulate the back - end with some other system . so we we get our f front - end features , and then , uh , as part of the process of figuring out the scaling of these features , { comment } you know , if we 're gon na take it to a root or to a power or something , { comment } we have some back - end that we attach onto our features that sort of simulates what would be happening . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: um , professor b: and just adjust it until it 's the best number ? phd a: and just adjust it until that our l version of the back - end , uh , decides that that professor b: well , we can probably use the real thing , ca n't we ? and then jus just , uh , use it on a reduced test set or something . phd a: yeah . oh , yeah . that 's true . professor b: yeah . phd a: and then we just use that to determine some scaling factor that we use . professor b: yeah . so i mean , i i think that that 's a reasonable thing to do and the only question is what 's the actual knob that we use ? phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and the knob that we use should uh , uh , unfortunately , like i say , i do n't know the analytic solution to this cuz what we really want to do is change the scale of the likelihoods , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: not the cha not the scale of the the observations . but but , uh phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . grad e: out of curiosity , what what kind of recognizer is the one from mississippi state ? phd a: uh , w what do you mean when you say `` what kind `` ? grad e: is it ? um , is it like a gaussian mixture model ? phd a: yeah . gaussian mixture model . grad e: ok . phd a: it 's the same system that they use when they participate in the hub - five evals . it 's a , um sort of came out of , uh uh , looking a lot like htk . i mean , they started off with um , when they were building their system they were always comparing to htk to make sure they were getting similar results . and so , it 's a gaussian mixture system , uh professor b: do they have the same sort of mix - down sort of procedure , where they start off with a small number of some things phd a: i do n't know . yeah . and then divide the mixtures in half . professor b: and ? yeah . phd a: i do n't know if they do that . i 'm not really sure . professor b: yeah . grad e: hmm . professor b: d do you know what kind of tying they use ? are they they sort of some sort of a bunch of gaussians that they share across everything ? or or if it 's ? phd a: yeah , th i have i i i do n't have it up here but i have a the whole system description , that describes exactly what their system is professor b: ok . phd a: and i i 'm not sure . but , um professor b: ok . phd a: it 's some kind of a mixture of gaussians and , uh , clustering and , uh they 're they 're trying to put in sort of all of the standard features that people use nowadays . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: so the other , uh , aurora thing maybe is i i dunno if any of this is gon na come in in time to be relevant , but , uh , we had talked about , uh , { comment } guenter playing around , uh , uh , over in germany phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: and and , @ @ { comment } uh , possibly coming up with something that would , uh , uh , fit in later . uh , i saw that other mail where he said that he uh , it was n't going to work for him to do cvs . phd d: yeah . yeah . so now he has a version of the software . professor b: so he just has it all sitting there . yeah . phd d: yeah . um mm - hmm . professor b: so if he 'll he might work on improving the noise estimate or on some histogram things , or phd d: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . i just saw the eurospeech we we did n't talk about it at our meeting but i just saw the just read the paper . someone , i forget the name , { comment } and and ney , uh , about histogram equalization ? did you see that one ? phd d: um , it was a poster . or professor b: yeah . i mean , i just read the paper . phd d: yeah . professor b: i did n't see the poster . phd d: yeah . um it was something similar to n on - line normalization finally i mean , in the idea of of normalizing professor b: yeah . but it 's a little more it it 's a little finer , right ? so they had like ten quantiles phd d: yeah . professor b: and and they adjust the distribution . phd d: right . professor b: so you you have the distributions from the training set , phd d: n professor b: and then , uh so this is just a a histogram of of the amplitudes , i guess . right ? and then um , people do this in image processing some . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: you have this kind of of histogram of of levels of brightness or whatever . and and and then , when you get a new new thing that you you want to adjust to be better in some way , you adjust it so that the histogram of the new data looks like the old data . phd a: hmm . professor b: you do this kind of piece - wise linear or , uh , some kind of piece - wise approximation . they did a uh one version that was piece - wise linear and another that had a power law thing between them between the points . and , uh , they said they s they sort of see it in a way as s for the speech case { comment } as being kind of a generalization of spectral subtraction in a way , because , you know , in spectral subtraction you 're trying to get rid of this excess energy . uh , you know , it 's not supposed to be there . uh and , uh , this is sort of adjusting it for for a lot of different levels . and then they have s they have some kind of , uh , a floor or something , grad e: hmm . professor b: so if it gets too low you do n't do n't do it . phd a: hmm . professor b: and they they claimed very nice results , phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: so is this a histogram across different frequency bins ? professor b: and phd a: or ? professor b: um , i think this i you know , i do n't remember that . do you remember ? phd d: i think they have , yeah , different histograms . i uh something like one per frequency band , professor b: one phd a: so , one histogram per frequency bin . professor b: one per critical phd d: or but i did yeah , i guess . phd a: and that 's phd d: but i should read the paper . i just went through the poster quickly , professor b: yeah . phd a: so th professor b: and i do n't remember whether it was filter bank things phd a: oh . phd d: and i did n't professor b: or whether it was fft bins phd a: huh . professor b: or phd a: and and that that , um , histogram represents the different energy levels that have been seen at that frequency ? professor b: i do n't remember that . and how often they you 've seen them . yeah . phd a: uh - huh . grad e: hmm . professor b: yeah . and they do they said that they could do it for the test so you do n't have to change the training . you just do a measurement over the training . and then , uh , for testing , uh , you can do it for one per utterance . even relatively short utterances . and they claim it it works pretty well . phd a: so they , uh is the idea that you you run a test utterance through some histogram generation thing and then you compare the histograms and that tells you what to do to the utterance to make it more like ? professor b: i guess in pri yeah . in principle . phd a: i see . professor b: i did n't read carefully how they actually implemented it , phd a: hmm . yeah . professor b: whether it was some , uh , on - line thing , or whether it was a second pass , or what . but but they that that was sort of the idea . phd a: hmm . professor b: so that that seemed , you know , different . we 're sort of curious about , uh , what are some things that are , u u um , @ @ { comment } conceptually quite different from what we 've done . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: cuz we you know , one thing that w that , uh , stephane and sunil seemed to find , uh , was , you know , they could actually make a unified piece of software that handled a range of different things that people were talking about , and it was really just sort of setting of different constants . and it would turn , you know , one thing into another . it 'd turn wiener filtering into spectral subtraction , or whatever . but there 's other things that we 're not doing . so , we 're not making any use of pitch , uh , uh , which again , might might be important , uh , because the stuff between the harmonics is probably a schmutz . and and the , uh , transcribers will have fun with that . uh and , um , the , uh , stuff at the harmonics is n't so much . and and , uh and we there 's this overall idea of really sort of matching the the hi distributions somehow . uh , not just , um , um not just subtracting off your estimate of the noise . so . so i guess , uh , guenter 's gon na play around with some of these things now over this next period , phd d: uh , i dunno . professor b: or ? phd d: i do n't have feedback from him , but professor b: yeah . phd d: i guess he 's gon na , maybe professor b: well , he 's got it anyway , so he can . phd d: yeah . professor b: so potentially if he came up with something that was useful , like a diff a better noise estimation module or something , he could ship it to you guys u up there phd d: uh - huh . professor b: and phd d: yeah . professor b: we could put it in . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . yeah . so , that 's good . so , why do n't we just , uh , um i think starting starting a w couple weeks from now , especially if you 're not gon na be around for a while , we 'll we 'll be shifting more over to some other other territory . but , uh , uh , { comment } uh , n not not so much in this meeting about aurora , but but , uh , uh , maybe just , uh , quickly today about maybe you could just say a little bit about what you 've been talking about with michael . and and then barry can say something about what { comment } what we 're talking about . grad c: ok . so michael kleinschmidt , who 's a phd student from germany , showed up this week . he 'll be here for about six months . and he 's done some work using an auditory model of , um , human hearing , and using that f uh , to generate speech recognition features . and he did work back in germany with , um , a toy recognition system using , um , isolated digit recognition as the task . it was actually just a single - layer neural network that classified words classified digits , in fact . um , and he tried that on i think on some aurora data and got results that he thought seemed respectable . and he w he 's coming here to u u use it on a uh , a real speech recognition system . so i 'll be working with him on that . and , um , maybe i should say a little more about these features , although i do n't understand them that well . the i think it 's a two - stage idea . and , um , the first stage of these features correspond to what 's called the peripheral auditory system . and i guess that is like a filter bank with a compressive nonlinearity . and i 'm - i 'm not sure what we have @ @ in there that is n't already modeled in something like , um , plp . i should learn more about that . and then the second stage is , um , the most different thing , i think , from what we usually do . it 's , um it computes features which are , um , based on sort of like based on diffe different w um , wavelet basis functions used to analyze the input . so th he uses analysis functions called gabor functions , um , which have a certain extent , um , in time and in frequency . and the idea is these are used to sample , um , the signal in a represented as a time - frequency representation . so you 're sampling some piece of this time - frequency plane . and , um , that , um , is is interesting , cuz , @ @ for for one thing , you could use it , um , in a a multi - scale way . you could have these instead of having everything like we use a twenty - five millisecond or so analysis window , typically , um , and that 's our time scale for features , but you could using this , um , basis function idea , you could have some basis functions which have a lot longer time scale and , um , some which have a lot shorter , and so it would be like a set of multi - scale features . so he 's interested in , um th - this is because it 's , um there are these different parameters for the shape of these basis functions , um there are a lot of different possible basis functions . and so he he actually does an optimization procedure to choose an an optimal set of basis functions out of all the possible ones . phd a: hmm . h what does he do to choose those ? grad c: the method he uses is kind of funny is , { comment } um , he starts with he has a set of m of them . um , he and then he uses that to classify i mean , he t he tries , um , using just m minus one of them . so there are m possible subsets of this length - m vector . he tries classifying , using each of the m possible sub - vectors . phd d: hmm . grad c: whichever sub - vector , um , works the the best , i guess , he says the the fe feature that did n't use was the most useless feature , professor b: y yeah . gets thrown out . yeah . grad c: so we 'll throw it out and we 're gon na randomly select another feature from the set of possible basis functions . phd a: hmm ! professor b: yeah . phd a: so it 's a professor b: so i so it 's actuall phd a: it 's a little bit like a genetic algorithm or something in a way . professor b: well , it 's it 's much simpler . grad e: it 's like a greedy professor b: but it 's but it 's uh , it 's there 's a lot number of things i like about it , let me just say . phd a: greedy . professor b: so , first thing , well , you 're absolutely right . i mean , i i in truth , both pieces of this are have their analogies in stuff we already do . but it 's a different take at how to approach it and potentially one that 's m maybe a bit more systematic than what we 've done , uh , and a b a bit more inspiration from from auditory things . so it 's so i think it 's a neat thing to try . the primary features , um , are in fact yeah , essentially , it 's it 's , uh , you know , plp or or mel cepstrum , or something like that . you 've you 've got some , uh , compression . we always have some compression . we always have some you know , the the the kind of filter bank with a kind of quasi - log scaling . um , if you put in if you also include the rasta in it i rasta the filtering being done in the log domain has an agc - like , uh , characteristic , which , you know , people typi typically put in these kind of , uh , um , uh , auditory front - ends . so it 's very , very similar , uh , but it 's not exactly the same . um , i would agree that the second one is is somewhat more different but , um , it 's mainly different in that the things that we have been doing like that have been um , had a different kind of motivation and have ended up with different kinds of constraints . so , for instance , if you look at the lda rasta stuff , you know , basically what they do is they they look at the different eigenvectors out of the lda and they form filters out of it . right ? and those filters have different , uh , kinds of temporal extents and temporal characteristics . and so in fact they 're multi - scale . but , they 're not sort of systematically multi - scale , like `` let 's start here and go to there , and go to there , and go to there `` , and so forth . it 's more like , you run it on this , you do discriminant analysis , and you find out what 's helpful . grad c: i it 's multi - scale because you use several of these in parallel , professor b: yeah . they use several of them . grad c: is that right ? of professor b: yeah . grad c: ok . professor b: uh , i mean , you do n't have to but but but , uh , hynek has . um , but it 's also , uh hyn - when hynek 's had people do this kind of lda analysis , they 've done it on frequency direction and they 've done it on the time direction . i think he may have had people sometimes doing it on both simultaneously some two - d and that would be the closest to these gabor function kind of things . uh , but i do n't think they 've done that much of that . and , uh , the other thing that 's interesting the the , uh the feature selection thing , it 's a simple method , but i kinda like it . um , there 's a a old , old method for feature selection . i mean , eh , uh , i remember people referring to it as old when i was playing with it twenty years ago , so i know it 's pretty old , uh , called stepwise linear discriminant analysis in which you which i think it 's used in social sciences a lot . so , you you you you pick the best feature . and then you take y you find the next feature that 's the best in combination with it . and then so on and so on . and what what michael 's describing seems to me much , much better , because the problem with the stepwise discriminant analysis is that you do n't know that you know , if you 've picked the right set of features . just because something 's a good feature does n't mean that you should be adding it . so , um , uh , here at least you 're starting off with all of them , and you 're throwing out useless features . i think that 's that seems , uh that seems like a lot better idea . uh , you 're always looking at things in combination with other features . um , so the only thing is , of course , there 's this this artificial question of of , uh , exactly how you how you a how you assess it and if if your order had been different in throwing them out . i mean , it still is n't necessarily really optimal , but it seems like a pretty good heuristic . so i th i think it 's it 's i think it 's kinda neat stuff . grad e: hmm . professor b: and and and , uh , the thing that i wanted to to add to it also was to have us use this in a multi - stream way . grad e: hmm . professor b: um , so so that , um , when you come up with these different things , and these different functions , you do n't necessarily just put them all into one huge vector , but perhaps you have some of them in one stream and some of them in another stream , and so forth . and , um , um , { comment } um and we 've also talked a little bit about , uh , uh , shihab shamma 's stuff , in which you the way you look at it is that there 's these different mappings and some of them emphasize , uh , upward moving , uh , energy and fre and frequency . and some are emphasizing downward and fast things and slow things and and so forth . so . so there 's a bunch of stuff to look at . but , uh , i think we 're sorta gon na start off with what he , uh , came here with and branch out branch out from there . and his advisor is here , too , at the same time . so , he 'll be another interesting source of wisdom . grad e: hmm . professor b: so . grad e: as as we were talking about this i was thinking , um , whether there 's a relationship between um , between michael 's approach to , uh , some some sort of optimal brain damage or optimal brain surgeon on the neural nets . professor b: yeah . grad c: hmm . grad e: so , like , if we have , um we have our we have our rasta features and and presumably the neural nets are are learning some sort of a nonlinear mapping , uh , from the the the features to to this this probability posterior space . professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: right ? and , um and each of the hidden units is learning some sort of some sort of some sort of pattern . right ? and it could be , like like these , um these auditory patterns that michael is looking at . and then when you 're looking at the the , uh , um , the best features , you know , you can take out you can do the do this , uh , brain surgery by taking out , um , hidden units that do n't really help at all . professor b: mm - hmm . or the or features . grad e: and this is k sorta like professor b: right ? grad e: yeah . professor b: i mean , y actually , you make me think a a very important point here is that , um , if we a again try to look at how is this different from what we 're already doing , uh , there 's a a , uh a nasty argument that could be made th that it 's it 's not different at at all , because , uh if you ignore the the selection part because we are going into a a very powerful , uh , nonlinearity that , uh , in fact is combining over time and frequency , and is coming up with its own you know , better than gabor functions its , you know , neural net functions , grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: its { comment } whatever it finds to be best . grad c: professor b: um , so you could argue that in fact it but i i do n't actually believe that argument because i know that , um , you can , uh computing features is useful , even though in principle you have n't added anything in fact , you subtracted something , from the original waveform you know , uh , if you 've you 've processed it in some way you 've typically lost something some information . and so , you 've lost information and yet it does better with with features than it does with the waveform . so , uh , i i know that i sometimes it 's useful to to constrain things . so that 's why it really seems like the constraint in in all this stuff it 's the constraints that are actually what matters . because if it was n't the constraints that mattered , then we would 've completely solved this problem long ago , because long ago we already knew how to put waveforms into powerful statistical mechanisms . so . phd d: yeah . well , if we had infinite processing power and data , { comment } i guess , using the waveform could grad e: right . professor b: yeah uh , then it would work . yeah , i agree . yeah . there 's the problem . phd d: so , that 's professor b: yeah . then it would work . but but , i mean , i it 's with finite of those things i mean , uh , we we have done experiments where we literally have put waveforms in and and and , uh , phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: we kept the number of parameters the same and so forth , and it used a lot of training data . and it and it it , uh not infinite but a lot , and then compared to the number parameters and it it , uh it just does n't do nearly as well . so , anyway the point is that you want to suppress phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: it 's not just having the maximum information , you want to suppress , uh , the aspects of the input signal that are not helpful for for the discrimination you 're trying to make . so . so maybe just briefly , uh grad e: well , that sort of segues into what what i 'm doing . professor b: yeah . grad e: um , so , uh , the big picture is k um , come up with a set of , uh , intermediate categories , then build intermediate category classifiers , then do recognition , and , um , improve speech recognition in that way . um , so right now i 'm in in the phase where i 'm looking at at , um , deciding on a initial set of intermediate categories . and i 'm looking for data data - driven methods that can help me find , um , a set of intermediate categories of speech that , uh , will help me to discriminate later down the line . and one of the ideas , um , that was to take a take a neural net train train an ordinary neural net to uh , to learn the posterior probabilities of phones . and so , um , at the end of the day you have this neural net and it has hidden hidden units . and each of these hidden units is um , is learning some sort of pattern . and so , um , what what are these patterns ? phd a: hmm . grad e: i do n't know . um , and i 'm gon na to try to to look at those patterns to to see , um , from those patterns uh , presumably those are important patterns for discriminating between phone classes . and maybe maybe some , uh , intermediate categories can come from just looking at the patterns of um , that the neural net learns . professor b: be - before you get on the next part l let me just point out that s there 's there 's a a pretty nice { comment } relationship between what you 're talking about doing and what you 're talking about doing there . right ? grad e: yeah . professor b: so , it seems to me that , you know , if you take away the the the difference of this primary features , and , say , you use as we had talked about maybe doing you use p - rasta - plp or something for the the primary features , um , then this feature discovery , uh , uh , thing is just what he 's talking about doing , too , except that he 's talking about doing them in order to discover intermediate categories that correspond to these uh , uh , what these sub - features are are are are showing you . and , um , the other difference is that , um , he 's doing this in a in a multi - band setting , which means that he 's constraining himself to look across time in some f relatively limited , uh , uh , spectral extent . right ? and whereas in in this case you 're saying `` let 's just do it unconstrained `` . so they 're they 're really pretty related and maybe they 'll be at some point where we 'll see the the connections a little better and connect them . grad c: hmm . grad e: mm - hmm . um . yeah , so so that 's the that 's the first part uh , one one of the ideas to get at some some patterns of intermediate categories . um , the other one was , um , to , uh , come up with a a a model { comment } um , a graphical model , that treats the intermediate categories as hidden hidden variables , latent variables , that we do n't know anything about , but that through , um , s statistical training and the em algorithm , um , at the end of the day , we have , um we have learned something about these these latent , um latent variables which happen to correspond to intermediate categories . um . yeah , and so those are the the two directions that i 'm i 'm looking into right now . and , uh , um yeah . i guess that 's that 's it . professor b: ok . should we do our digits and get ou get our treats ? grad e: oh , tea time ? professor b: yeah . it 's kind of like , you know , the little rats with the little thing dropping down to them . phd a: that 's ri professor b: we do the digits and then we get our treats . grad e: oops . phd a: ok .

the professor thought the lpc had two problems . it was adding degradation and there was an issue with pitch . the professor also expressed that the lpc was throwing away information that was useful .

what did phd d think about lpc ? </s> phd a: eh , we should be going . professor b: so ne next week we 'll have , uh , both birger and , uh , mike michael michael kleinschmidt and birger kollmeier will join us . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: um , and you 're you 're probably gon na go up in a couple three weeks or so ? when d when are you thinking of going up to , uh , ogi ? phd d: yeah , like , uh , not next week but maybe the week after . professor b: ok . good . so at least we 'll have one meeting with yo with you still around , and and phd d: uh - huh . professor b: that 's good . phd d: um , yeah . well , maybe we can start with this . mmm . professor b: all today , huh ? phd d: yeah . professor b: oh . phd d: um . yeah . so there was this conference call this morning , um , and the only topic on the agenda was just to discuss a and to come at uh , to get a decision about this latency problem . professor b: no , this i 'm sorry , this is a conference call between different aurora people or just ? phd d: uh , yeah . it 's the conference call between the aurora , uh , group . professor b: it 's the main conference call . ok . phd d: uh , yeah . there were like two hours of discussions , and then suddenly , uh , people were tired , i guess , and they decided on a number , two hundred and twenty , um , included e including everything . uh , it means that it 's like eighty milliseconds less than before . professor b: and what are we sitting at currently ? phd d: um . professor b: yeah . phd d: so , currently d uh , we have system that has two hundred and thirty . so , that 's fine . professor b: two thirty . phd d: yeah . so that 's the system that 's described on the second point of this document . professor b: so it 's we have to reduce it by ten milliseconds somehow . phd d: yeah . but that 's yeah . that 's not a problem , i i guess . professor b: ok . w it 's it 's p d primary primarily determined by the vad at this point , phd d: um . professor b: right ? phd d: yeah . professor b: s so we can make the vad a little shorter . phd d: yeah . at this point , yeah . professor b: that 's phd d: yeah , uh - huh . professor b: yeah . we probably should do that pretty soon so that we do n't get used to it being a certain way . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: yeah . phd d: um . professor b: was hari on the on the phone ? phd d: yeah , sure . professor b: ok . phd d: well , it was mainly a discussion between hari and david , professor b: hmm . phd d: who was like professor b: yeah . phd d: uh , professor b: ok . phd d: mmm uh , yeah . so , the second thing is the system that we have currently . oh , yes . we have , like , a system that gives sixty - two percent improvement , but if you want to stick to the this latency well , it has a latency of two thirty , but if you want also to stick to the number of features that limit it to sixty , then we go a little bit down but it 's still sixty - one percent . uh , and if we drop the tandem network , then we have fifty - seven percent . professor b: uh , but th the two th two thirty includes the tandem network ? phd d: yeah . professor b: ok . and i is the tandem network , uh , small enough that it will fit on the terminal size in terms of ? phd d: uh , no , i do n't think so . professor b: no . phd d: no . professor b: ok . phd d: it 's still in terms of computation , if we use , like , their way of computing the the maps the the mips , i think it fits , professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: but it 's , uh , m mainly a problem of memory . professor b: right . phd d: um , and i do n't know how much this can be discussed or not , because it 's it could be in rom , so it 's maybe not that expensive . but professor b: ho - how much memory d ? h how many ? phd d: i d i d uh , i i do n't kn remember exactly , but uh . yeah , i c i i have to check that . professor b: yeah . i 'd like to see that , cuz maybe i could think a little bit about it , cuz we maybe we could make it a little smaller or i mean , it 'd be it 'd be neat if we could fit it all . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: uh , i 'd like to see how far off we are . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: but i guess it 's still within their rules to have have it on the , uh , t uh , server side . right ? phd d: yeah . yeah . professor b: ok . phd d: mmm . professor b: and this is still ? uh , well , y you 're saying here . i c i should just let you go on . phd d: yeah , there were small tricks to make this tandem network work . uh , mmm , and one of the trick was to , um , use some kind of hierarchical structure where the silence probability is not computed by the final tandem network but by the vad network . um , so apparently it looks better when , uh , we use the silence probability from the vad network professor b: huh . phd d: and we re - scale the other probabilities by one minus the silence probability . um . so it 's some kind of hierarchical thing , uh , that sunil also tried , um , on spine and apparently it helps a little bit also . mmm . and . yeah , the reason w why why we did that with the silence probability was that , um professor b: could ? uh , uh , i 'm i 'm really sorry . can you repeat what you were saying about the silence probability ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: i only my mind was some phd d: yeah . so there is the tandem network that e e e estimates the phone probabilities professor b: yeah . yeah . phd d: and the silence probabilities also . professor b: right . phd d: and things get better when , instead of using the silence probability computed by the tandem network , we use the silence probability , uh , given by the vad network , professor b: oh . phd d: um , professor b: the vad network is ? phd d: which is smaller , but maybe , um so we have a network for the vad which has one hundred hidden units , and the tandem network has five hundred . um . so it 's smaller but th the silence probability from this network seems , uh , better . professor b: ok . phd d: mmm . uh . well , it looks strange , but professor b: yeah . but phd d: but it professor b: ok . phd d: maybe it 's has something to do to the fact that we do n't have infinite training data and professor b: we do n't ? phd d: well ! and so well , things are not optimal professor b: yeah . phd d: and mmm grad e: are you you were going to say why what made you wh what led you to do that . phd d: yeah . uh , there was a p { comment } problem that we observed , um , that there was there were , like , many insertions in the in the system . professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: mmm . professor b: hmm . phd d: actually plugging in the tandem network was increasing , i i i think , the number of insertions . professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: and , um so it looked strange and then just using the the other silence probability helps . mmm . um yeah . the next thing we will do is train this tandem on more data . professor b: so , you know , in a way what it might i it 's it 's a little bit like combining knowledge sources . phd d: um professor b: right ? because the fact that you have these two nets that are different sizes means they behave a little differently , phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: they find different things . and , um , if you have , um f the distribution that you have from , uh , f speech sounds is w { comment } sort of one source of knowledge . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: and this is and rather than just taking one minus that to get the other , which is essentially what 's happening , you have this other source of knowledge that you 're putting in there . so you make use of both of them in in what you 're ending up with . maybe it 's better . phd d: yeah . professor b: anyway , you can probably justify anything if what 's use phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd d: and and the features are different also . i mean , the vad does n't use the same features there are . professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: hmm . professor b: oh ! phd d: um professor b: that might be the key , actually . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: cuz you were really thinking about speech versus nonspeech for that . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: that 's a good point . phd d: mmm . uh . well , there are other things that we should do but , um , it requires time and we have ideas , like so , these things are like hav having a better vad . uh , we have some ideas about that . it would probably implies working a little bit on features that are more suited to a voice activity detection . professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: working on the second stream . of course we have ideas on this also , but w we need to try different things and uh , but their noise estimation , um uh professor b: i mean , back on the second stream , i mean , that 's something we 've talked about for a while . i mean , i think that 's certainly a high hope . phd d: yeah . mmm . professor b: um , so we have this this default idea about just using some sort of purely spectral thing ? phd d: uh , yeah . professor b: for a second stream ? phd d: but , um , we we did a first try with this , and it it clearly hurts . professor b: but , uh , how was the stream combined ? phd d: uh . it was c it was just combined , um , by the acoustic model . so there was , no neural network for the moment . professor b: right . so , i mean , if you just had a second stream that was just spectral and had another neural net and combined there , that that , uh , might be good . phd d: mm - hmm . yeah . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mmm . yeah . um yeah , and the other thing , that noise estimation and th um , maybe try to train uh , the training data for the t tandem network , right now , is like i is using the noises from the aurora task and i think that people might , um , try to argue about that because then in some cases we have the same noises in for training the network than the noises that are used for testing , professor b: right . phd d: and so we have t n uh , to try to get rid of these this problem . professor b: yeah . maybe you just put in some other noise , something that 's different . phd d: mm - hmm . yeah . professor b: i mean , it it 's probably helpful to have have a little noise there . but it may be something else phd d: uh - huh . professor b: th at least you could say it was . phd d: yeah . professor b: and then if it does n't hurt too much , though . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: yeah . that 's a good idea . phd d: um . yeah . the last thing is that i think we are getting close to human performance . well , that 's something i would like to investigate further , but , um , i did , like , um i did , uh , listen to the m most noisy utterances of the speechdat - car italian and tried to transcribe them . and , um professor b: so this is a particular human . this is this i this is stephane . phd d: yeah . so that 's that 's grad e: st - stephane . professor b: yeah . phd d: that 's the the flaw of the experiment . this is just i j { comment } it 's just one subject , professor b: yeah . grad e: getting close . phd d: but but still , uh , what happens is is that , uh , the digit error rate on this is around one percent , professor b: yeah . phd d: while our system is currently at seven percent . um , but what happens also is that if i listen to the , um a re - synthesized version of the speech and i re - synthesized this using a white noise that 's filtered by a lpc , uh , filter professor b: yeah . phd d: um , well , you can argue , that , uh that this is not speech , professor b: yeah . phd d: so the ear is not trained to recognize this . but s actually it sound like whispering , so we are professor b: well , i mean , it 's phd d: eh professor b: there 's two problems there . i mean i mean , so so the first is that by doing lpc - twelve with synthesized speech w like you 're saying , uh , it 's i i you 're you 're adding other degradation . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: right ? so it 's not just the noise but you 're adding in fact some degradation because it 's only an approximation . um , and the second thing is which is m maybe more interesting is that , um , { comment } if you do it with whispered speech , you get this number . what if you had done analysis { comment } re - synthesis and taken the pitch as well ? alright ? so now you put the pitch in . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: what would the percentage be then ? phd d: um professor b: see , that 's the question . so , you see , if it 's if it 's if it 's , uh let 's say it 's back down to one percent again . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: that would say at least for people , having the pitch is really , really important , which would be interesting in itself . um , phd d: uh , yeah . but professor b: if i on the other hand , if it stayed up near five percent , then i 'd say `` boy , lpc n twelve is pretty crummy `` . you know ? phd d: uh - huh . professor b: so i i i 'm not sure i 'm not sure how we can conclude from this anything about that our system is close to the human performance . phd d: ye yeah . well , the point is that eh l ey the point is that , um , what i what i listened to when i re - synthesized the lp - the lpc - twelve spectrum is in a way what the system , uh , is hearing , cuz @ @ all the all the , um , excitation all the well , the excitation is is not taken into account . that 's what we do with our system . and professor b: well , you 're not doing the lpc phd d: in this case professor b: i mean , so so what if you did a phd d: well , it 's not lpc , sure , professor b: what if you did lpc - twenty ? phd d: but lpc ? professor b: twenty . right ? i mean , th the thing is lpc is not a a really great representation of speech . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: so , all i 'm saying is that you have in addition to the w the , uh , removal of pitch , you also are doing , uh , a particular parameterization , phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: which , um , uh phd d: mmm . professor b: uh , so , let 's see , how would you do ? so , fo phd d: but that 's that 's what we do with our systems . and professor b: no . actually , we d we we do n't , because we do we do , uh , uh , mel filter bank , for instance . right ? phd d: yeah , but is it that is it that different , i mean ? professor b: um , i do n't know what mel , uh , based synthesis would sound like , phd d: i professor b: but certainly the spectra are quite different . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: could n't you t could n't you , um , test the human performance on just the original audio ? phd d: mm - hmm . this is the one percent number . professor b: yeah , it 's one percent . he 's trying to remove the pitch information phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: oh , oh . ok , phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: i see . professor b: and make it closer to what to what we 're seeing as the feature vectors . phd a: ok . so , y uh , your performance was one percent , and then when you re - synthesize with lpc - twelve it went to five . phd d: uh - huh . yeah . phd a: ok . professor b: i mean we were we were j it it it 's a little bit still apples and oranges because we are choosing these features in order to be the best for recognition . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: and , um , i if you listen to them they still might not be very even if you made something closer to what we 're gon na i it might not sound very good . phd d: yeah . professor b: uh , and i the degradation from that might might actually make it even harder , uh , to understand than the lpc - twelve . so all i 'm saying is that the lpc - twelve puts in synthesis puts in some degradation that 's not what we 're used to hearing , phd d: uh - huh . professor b: and is , um it 's not it 's not just a question of how much information is there , as if you will always take maximum advantage of any information that 's presented to you . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: in fact , you hear some things better than others . and so it it is n't phd a: but professor b: but , i agree that it says that , uh , the kind of information that we 're feeding it is probably , um , um , a little bit , um , minimal . there 's definitely some things that we 've thrown away . and that 's why i was saying it might be interesting if you an interesting test of this would be if you if you actually put the pitch back in . so , you just extract it from the actual speech and put it back in , and see does that is that does that make the difference ? if that if that takes it down to one percent again , then you 'd say `` ok , it 's it 's in fact having , um , not just the spectral envelope but also the also the the pitch that , uh , { comment } @ @ { comment } has the information that people can use , anyway . `` phd d: uh - huh . mmm . phd a: but from this it 's pretty safe to say that the system is with either two to seven percent away from the performance of a human . right ? so it 's somewhere in that range . professor b: well , or it 's it 's phd a: two two to six percent . professor b: yeah , so it 's it 's one point four times , uh , to , uh , seven times the error , phd d: to f seven times , yeah . professor b: for stephane . phd d: um . professor b: so , uh uh , but i i do n't know . i do do n't wan na take you away from other things . phd d: but { comment } but professor b: but that 's that 's what that 's the first thing that i would be curious about , is , you know , i i when you we phd d: but the signal itself is like a mix of um , of a a periodic sound and , @ @ { comment } uh , unvoiced sound , and the noise professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: which is mostly , uh , noise . i mean not periodic . so , what what do you mean exactly by putting back the pitch in ? because phd a: in the lpc synthesis ? i think professor b: yeah . you did lpc re - synthesis phd d: i professor b: l pc re - synthesis . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: so , uh and you did it with a noise source , rather than with with a s periodic source . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: right ? so if you actually did real re - synthesis like you do in an lpc synthesizer , where it 's unvoiced you use noise , where it 's voiced you use , uh , periodic pulses . phd d: um . professor b: right ? phd d: yeah , but it 's neither purely voiced or purely unvoiced . esp - especially because there is noise . professor b: well , it might be hard to do it phd d: so professor b: but it but but the thing is that if you um , if you detect that there 's periodic s strong periodic components , then you can use a voiced voice thing . phd d: oh . uh - huh . yeah . professor b: yeah . i mean , it 's probably not worth your time . it 's it 's a side thing and and and there 's a lot to do . phd d: uh - huh , yeah . professor b: but i 'm i 'm just saying , at least as a thought experiment , that 's what i would wan na test . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: uh , i wan would wan na drive it with a a a two - source system rather than a than a one - source system . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: and then that would tell you whether in fact it 's cuz we 've talked about , like , this harmonic tunneling or other things that people have done based on pitch , maybe that 's really a key element . maybe maybe , uh , uh , without that , it 's it 's not possible to do a whole lot better than we 're doing . that that could be . phd d: yeah . that 's what i was thinking by doing this es experiment , professor b: yeah . phd d: like mmm . evi professor b: but , i mean , other than that , i do n't think it 's i mean , other than the pitch de information , it 's hard to imagine that there 's a whole lot more in the signal that that , uh that we 're throwing away that 's important . phd d: yeah , but yeah . mm - hmm . yeah , right . professor b: right ? i mean , we 're using a fair number of filters in the filter bank and uh phd d: mm - hmm . uh , yeah . professor b: hmm . yeah . phd d: um . professor b: yeah . that look phd d: yeah , that 's it . professor b: yeah . that 's that 's i mean , one one percent is sort of what i would i would figure . if somebody was paying really close attention , you might get i would actually think that if , you looked at people on various times of the day and different amounts of attention , you might actually get up to three or four percent error on digits . uh , uh phd d: mm - hmm . um . professor b: so it 's you know , we 're not we 're not incredibly far off . on the other hand , with any of these numbers except maybe the one percent , it 's st it 's not actually usable in a commercial system with a full telephone number or something . phd d: uh - huh . yeah . at these noise levels . professor b: yeah . phd d: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: right . phd d: well , yeah . these numbers , i mean . mmm . professor b: good . um , while we 're still on aurora stuff maybe you can talk a little about the status with the , uh , wall street journal things for it . phd a: so i 've , um , downloaded , uh , a couple of things from mississippi state . um , one is their software their , uh , lvcsr system . downloaded the latest version of that . got it compiled and everything . um , downloaded the scripts . they wrote some scripts that sort of make it easy to run the system on the wall street journal , uh , data . um , so i have n't run the scripts yet . uh , i 'm waiting there was one problem with part of it and i wrote a note to joe asking him about it . so i 'm waiting to hear from him . but , um , i did print something out just to give you an idea about where the system is . uh , they on their web site they , uh , did this little table of where their system performs relative to other systems that have done this this task . and , um , the mississippi state system using a bigram grammar , uh , is at about eight point two percent . other comparable systems from , uh were getting from , uh , like six point nine , six point eight percent . so they 're professor b: this is on clean test set ? phd a: this is on clean on clean stuff . yeah . they they 've started a table where they 're showing their results on various different noise conditions but they they do n't have a whole lot of it filled in and and i did n't notice until after i 'd printed it out that , um , they do n't say here what these different testing conditions are . professor b: phd a: you actually have to click on it on the web site to see them . so i i do n't know what those numbers really mean . professor b: what kind of numbers are they getting on these on the test conditions ? phd a: well , see , i was a little confused because on this table , i 'm the they 're showing word error rate . but on this one , i i do n't know if these are word error rates because they 're really big . so , under condition one here it 's ten percent . then under three it goes to sixty - four point six percent . professor b: yeah , that 's probably aurora . phd a: yeah . professor b: i mean phd a: so m i guess maybe they 're error rates but they 're , uh they 're really high . professor b: i i i do n't find that surpri phd a: so professor b: i mean , we w what 's what 's some of the lower error rates on on on uh , some of the higher error rates on , uh , some of these w uh , uh , highly mismatched difficult conditions ? what 's a ? phd d: uh . yeah , it 's around fifteen to twenty percent . phd a: correct ? phd d: and the baseline , eh phd a: accuracy ? phd d: uh , error rate . professor b: yeah . phd d: twenty percent error rate , professor b: yeah . so twenty percent error rate on digits . phd d: and phd a: oh , oh , on digits . professor b: so if you 're doing so if you 're doing , phd d: and phd a: yeah . phd d: on digits . phd a: ok . professor b: you know , phd d: and this is so so still the baseline . professor b: sixty - thousand phd d: right ? phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah , and if you 're saying sixty - thousand word recognition , getting sixty percent error on some of these noise condition not at all surprising . phd a: yeah . phd d: the baseline is sixty percent also on digits , phd a: oh , is it ? phd d: on the m more mismatched conditions . phd a: ok . professor b: yeah . phd d: so . phd a: so , yeah , that 's probably what it is then . yeah . so they have a lot of different conditions that they 're gon na be filling out . professor b: it 's a bad sign when you looking at the numbers , you ca n't tell whether it 's accuracy or error rate . phd a: yeah . yeah . it 's it 's gon na be hard . um , they 're i i 'm still waiting for them to release the , um , multi - cpu version of their scripts , cuz right now their script only handles processing on a single cpu , which will take a really long time to run . so . but their s professor b: this is for the training ? phd a: uh i beli yes , for the training also . and , um , they 're supposed to be coming out with it any time , professor b: ok . phd a: the multi - cpu one . so , as soon as they get that , then i 'll i 'll grab those too professor b: ok . phd a: and so w professor b: yeah . cuz we have to get started , phd a: yeah . professor b: cuz it 's cuz , uh , phd a: yeah . i 'll go ahead and try to run it though with just the single cpu one , professor b: if the phd a: and i they they , um , released like a smaller data set that you can use that only takes like sixteen hours to train and stuff . so i can i can run it on that just to make sure that the the thing works and everything . professor b: oh ! good . yeah . cuz we 'll grad e: hmm . professor b: i guess the actual evaluation will be in six weeks or something . so . is that about right you think ? phd d: uh , we do n't know yet , i i think . professor b: really , we do n't know ? phd d: uh - huh . um . phd a: it was n't on the conference call this morning ? professor b: hmm . phd d: no . phd a: hmm . did they say anything on the conference call about , um , how the wall street journal part of the test was going to be run ? because i i thought i remembered hearing that some sites were saying that they did n't have the compute to be able to run the wall street journal stuff at their place , phd d: no . mmm . phd a: so there was some talk about having mississippi state run the systems for them . and i did did that come up at all ? phd d: uh , no . well , this first , this was not the point at all of this the meeting today phd a: oh , ok . phd d: and , professor b: some phd d: uh , frankly , i do n't know because i d { comment } did n't read also the most recent mails about the large - vocabulary task . but , uh , did you do you still , uh , get the mails ? you 're not on the mailing list or what ? phd a: hmm - mm . the only , um , mail i get is from mississippi state phd d: uh - huh . phd a: so phd d: oh , yeah . so we should have a look at this . phd a: about their system . i i do n't get any mail about professor b: i have to say , there 's uh something funny - sounding about saying that one of these big companies does n't have enough cup compute power do that , so they 're having to have it done by mississippi state . phd a: yeah . professor b: it just just sounds funny . phd a: yeah . it does . professor b: but , phd a: yeah . i 'm i 'm wondering about that professor b: anyway . phd a: because there 's this whole issue about , you know , simple tuning parameters , like word insertion penalties . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: and whether or not those are going to be tuned or not , and { comment } so . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: i mean , it makes a big difference . if you change your front - end , you know , the scale is completely can be completely different , so . it seems reasonable that that at least should be tweaked to match the front - end . but phd d: you did n't get any answer from joe ? phd a: i did , but joe said , you know , `` what you 're saying makes sense phd d: uh - huh . phd a: and i do n't know `` . so he does n't know what the answer is . phd d: uh - huh . phd a: i mean , that 's th we had this back and forth a little bit about , you know , are sites gon na are you gon na run this data for different sites ? and , well , if if mississippi state runs it , then maybe they 'll do a little optimization on that parameter , and , uh but then he was n't asked to run it for anybody . so i it 's it 's just not clear yet what 's gon na happen . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: uh , he 's been putting this stuff out on their web site and for people to grab but i have n't heard too much about what 's happening . professor b: so it could be i mean , chuck and i had actually talked about this a couple times , and and over some lunches , i think , that , um , one thing that we might wan na do the - there 's this question about , you know , what do you wan na scale ? suppose y you ca n't adjust these word insertion penalties and so forth , so you have to do everything at the level of the features . what could you do ? and , uh , one thing i had suggested at an earlier time was maybe some sort of scaling , some sort of root or or something of the , um , uh , features . but the problem with that is that is n't quite the same , it occurred to me later , because what you really want to do is scale the , uh , @ @ { comment } the range of the likelihoods rather than phd d: nnn , the dist yeah . professor b: but , what might get at something similar , it just occurred to me , is kind of an intermediate thing is because we do this strange thing that we do with the tandem system , at least in that system what you could do is take the , um , uh , values that come out of the net , which are something like log probabilities , and scale those . and then , uh , um then at least those things would have the right values or the right the right range . and then that goes into the rest of it and then that 's used as observations . so it 's it 's , um , another way to do it . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . but , these values are not directly used as probabilities anyway . professor b: i know they 're not . phd d: so there are there is professor b: i know they 're not . but but , you know so because what we 're doing is pretty strange and complicated , we do n't really know what the effect is at the other end . phd d: uh - huh . mm - hmm . professor b: so , um , my thought was maybe i mean , they 're not used as probabilities , but the log probabilities we 're taking advantage of the fact that something like log probabilities has more of a gaussian shape than gaus - than probabilities , and so we can model them better . so , in a way we 're taking advantage of the fact that they 're probabilities , because they 're this quantity that looks kind of gaussian when you take it 's log . so , { comment } uh , maybe maybe it would have a a reasonable effect to do that . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: i d i do n't know . but , i mean , i guess we still have n't had a a ruling back on this . and we may end up being in a situation where we just you know really ca n't change the word insertion penalty . but the other thing we could do is also we could i mean , this this may not help us , uh , in the evaluation but it might help us in our understanding at least . we might , just run it with different insper insertion penalties , and show that , uh , `` well , ok , not changing it , playing the rules the way you wanted , we did this . but in fact if we did that , it made a a big difference . `` phd a: i wonder if it it might be possible to , uh , simulate the back - end with some other system . so we we get our f front - end features , and then , uh , as part of the process of figuring out the scaling of these features , { comment } you know , if we 're gon na take it to a root or to a power or something , { comment } we have some back - end that we attach onto our features that sort of simulates what would be happening . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: um , professor b: and just adjust it until it 's the best number ? phd a: and just adjust it until that our l version of the back - end , uh , decides that that professor b: well , we can probably use the real thing , ca n't we ? and then jus just , uh , use it on a reduced test set or something . phd a: yeah . oh , yeah . that 's true . professor b: yeah . phd a: and then we just use that to determine some scaling factor that we use . professor b: yeah . so i mean , i i think that that 's a reasonable thing to do and the only question is what 's the actual knob that we use ? phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and the knob that we use should uh , uh , unfortunately , like i say , i do n't know the analytic solution to this cuz what we really want to do is change the scale of the likelihoods , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: not the cha not the scale of the the observations . but but , uh phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . grad e: out of curiosity , what what kind of recognizer is the one from mississippi state ? phd a: uh , w what do you mean when you say `` what kind `` ? grad e: is it ? um , is it like a gaussian mixture model ? phd a: yeah . gaussian mixture model . grad e: ok . phd a: it 's the same system that they use when they participate in the hub - five evals . it 's a , um sort of came out of , uh uh , looking a lot like htk . i mean , they started off with um , when they were building their system they were always comparing to htk to make sure they were getting similar results . and so , it 's a gaussian mixture system , uh professor b: do they have the same sort of mix - down sort of procedure , where they start off with a small number of some things phd a: i do n't know . yeah . and then divide the mixtures in half . professor b: and ? yeah . phd a: i do n't know if they do that . i 'm not really sure . professor b: yeah . grad e: hmm . professor b: d do you know what kind of tying they use ? are they they sort of some sort of a bunch of gaussians that they share across everything ? or or if it 's ? phd a: yeah , th i have i i i do n't have it up here but i have a the whole system description , that describes exactly what their system is professor b: ok . phd a: and i i 'm not sure . but , um professor b: ok . phd a: it 's some kind of a mixture of gaussians and , uh , clustering and , uh they 're they 're trying to put in sort of all of the standard features that people use nowadays . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: so the other , uh , aurora thing maybe is i i dunno if any of this is gon na come in in time to be relevant , but , uh , we had talked about , uh , { comment } guenter playing around , uh , uh , over in germany phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: and and , @ @ { comment } uh , possibly coming up with something that would , uh , uh , fit in later . uh , i saw that other mail where he said that he uh , it was n't going to work for him to do cvs . phd d: yeah . yeah . so now he has a version of the software . professor b: so he just has it all sitting there . yeah . phd d: yeah . um mm - hmm . professor b: so if he 'll he might work on improving the noise estimate or on some histogram things , or phd d: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . i just saw the eurospeech we we did n't talk about it at our meeting but i just saw the just read the paper . someone , i forget the name , { comment } and and ney , uh , about histogram equalization ? did you see that one ? phd d: um , it was a poster . or professor b: yeah . i mean , i just read the paper . phd d: yeah . professor b: i did n't see the poster . phd d: yeah . um it was something similar to n on - line normalization finally i mean , in the idea of of normalizing professor b: yeah . but it 's a little more it it 's a little finer , right ? so they had like ten quantiles phd d: yeah . professor b: and and they adjust the distribution . phd d: right . professor b: so you you have the distributions from the training set , phd d: n professor b: and then , uh so this is just a a histogram of of the amplitudes , i guess . right ? and then um , people do this in image processing some . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: you have this kind of of histogram of of levels of brightness or whatever . and and and then , when you get a new new thing that you you want to adjust to be better in some way , you adjust it so that the histogram of the new data looks like the old data . phd a: hmm . professor b: you do this kind of piece - wise linear or , uh , some kind of piece - wise approximation . they did a uh one version that was piece - wise linear and another that had a power law thing between them between the points . and , uh , they said they s they sort of see it in a way as s for the speech case { comment } as being kind of a generalization of spectral subtraction in a way , because , you know , in spectral subtraction you 're trying to get rid of this excess energy . uh , you know , it 's not supposed to be there . uh and , uh , this is sort of adjusting it for for a lot of different levels . and then they have s they have some kind of , uh , a floor or something , grad e: hmm . professor b: so if it gets too low you do n't do n't do it . phd a: hmm . professor b: and they they claimed very nice results , phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: so is this a histogram across different frequency bins ? professor b: and phd a: or ? professor b: um , i think this i you know , i do n't remember that . do you remember ? phd d: i think they have , yeah , different histograms . i uh something like one per frequency band , professor b: one phd a: so , one histogram per frequency bin . professor b: one per critical phd d: or but i did yeah , i guess . phd a: and that 's phd d: but i should read the paper . i just went through the poster quickly , professor b: yeah . phd a: so th professor b: and i do n't remember whether it was filter bank things phd a: oh . phd d: and i did n't professor b: or whether it was fft bins phd a: huh . professor b: or phd a: and and that that , um , histogram represents the different energy levels that have been seen at that frequency ? professor b: i do n't remember that . and how often they you 've seen them . yeah . phd a: uh - huh . grad e: hmm . professor b: yeah . and they do they said that they could do it for the test so you do n't have to change the training . you just do a measurement over the training . and then , uh , for testing , uh , you can do it for one per utterance . even relatively short utterances . and they claim it it works pretty well . phd a: so they , uh is the idea that you you run a test utterance through some histogram generation thing and then you compare the histograms and that tells you what to do to the utterance to make it more like ? professor b: i guess in pri yeah . in principle . phd a: i see . professor b: i did n't read carefully how they actually implemented it , phd a: hmm . yeah . professor b: whether it was some , uh , on - line thing , or whether it was a second pass , or what . but but they that that was sort of the idea . phd a: hmm . professor b: so that that seemed , you know , different . we 're sort of curious about , uh , what are some things that are , u u um , @ @ { comment } conceptually quite different from what we 've done . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: cuz we you know , one thing that w that , uh , stephane and sunil seemed to find , uh , was , you know , they could actually make a unified piece of software that handled a range of different things that people were talking about , and it was really just sort of setting of different constants . and it would turn , you know , one thing into another . it 'd turn wiener filtering into spectral subtraction , or whatever . but there 's other things that we 're not doing . so , we 're not making any use of pitch , uh , uh , which again , might might be important , uh , because the stuff between the harmonics is probably a schmutz . and and the , uh , transcribers will have fun with that . uh and , um , the , uh , stuff at the harmonics is n't so much . and and , uh and we there 's this overall idea of really sort of matching the the hi distributions somehow . uh , not just , um , um not just subtracting off your estimate of the noise . so . so i guess , uh , guenter 's gon na play around with some of these things now over this next period , phd d: uh , i dunno . professor b: or ? phd d: i do n't have feedback from him , but professor b: yeah . phd d: i guess he 's gon na , maybe professor b: well , he 's got it anyway , so he can . phd d: yeah . professor b: so potentially if he came up with something that was useful , like a diff a better noise estimation module or something , he could ship it to you guys u up there phd d: uh - huh . professor b: and phd d: yeah . professor b: we could put it in . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . yeah . so , that 's good . so , why do n't we just , uh , um i think starting starting a w couple weeks from now , especially if you 're not gon na be around for a while , we 'll we 'll be shifting more over to some other other territory . but , uh , uh , { comment } uh , n not not so much in this meeting about aurora , but but , uh , uh , maybe just , uh , quickly today about maybe you could just say a little bit about what you 've been talking about with michael . and and then barry can say something about what { comment } what we 're talking about . grad c: ok . so michael kleinschmidt , who 's a phd student from germany , showed up this week . he 'll be here for about six months . and he 's done some work using an auditory model of , um , human hearing , and using that f uh , to generate speech recognition features . and he did work back in germany with , um , a toy recognition system using , um , isolated digit recognition as the task . it was actually just a single - layer neural network that classified words classified digits , in fact . um , and he tried that on i think on some aurora data and got results that he thought seemed respectable . and he w he 's coming here to u u use it on a uh , a real speech recognition system . so i 'll be working with him on that . and , um , maybe i should say a little more about these features , although i do n't understand them that well . the i think it 's a two - stage idea . and , um , the first stage of these features correspond to what 's called the peripheral auditory system . and i guess that is like a filter bank with a compressive nonlinearity . and i 'm - i 'm not sure what we have @ @ in there that is n't already modeled in something like , um , plp . i should learn more about that . and then the second stage is , um , the most different thing , i think , from what we usually do . it 's , um it computes features which are , um , based on sort of like based on diffe different w um , wavelet basis functions used to analyze the input . so th he uses analysis functions called gabor functions , um , which have a certain extent , um , in time and in frequency . and the idea is these are used to sample , um , the signal in a represented as a time - frequency representation . so you 're sampling some piece of this time - frequency plane . and , um , that , um , is is interesting , cuz , @ @ for for one thing , you could use it , um , in a a multi - scale way . you could have these instead of having everything like we use a twenty - five millisecond or so analysis window , typically , um , and that 's our time scale for features , but you could using this , um , basis function idea , you could have some basis functions which have a lot longer time scale and , um , some which have a lot shorter , and so it would be like a set of multi - scale features . so he 's interested in , um th - this is because it 's , um there are these different parameters for the shape of these basis functions , um there are a lot of different possible basis functions . and so he he actually does an optimization procedure to choose an an optimal set of basis functions out of all the possible ones . phd a: hmm . h what does he do to choose those ? grad c: the method he uses is kind of funny is , { comment } um , he starts with he has a set of m of them . um , he and then he uses that to classify i mean , he t he tries , um , using just m minus one of them . so there are m possible subsets of this length - m vector . he tries classifying , using each of the m possible sub - vectors . phd d: hmm . grad c: whichever sub - vector , um , works the the best , i guess , he says the the fe feature that did n't use was the most useless feature , professor b: y yeah . gets thrown out . yeah . grad c: so we 'll throw it out and we 're gon na randomly select another feature from the set of possible basis functions . phd a: hmm ! professor b: yeah . phd a: so it 's a professor b: so i so it 's actuall phd a: it 's a little bit like a genetic algorithm or something in a way . professor b: well , it 's it 's much simpler . grad e: it 's like a greedy professor b: but it 's but it 's uh , it 's there 's a lot number of things i like about it , let me just say . phd a: greedy . professor b: so , first thing , well , you 're absolutely right . i mean , i i in truth , both pieces of this are have their analogies in stuff we already do . but it 's a different take at how to approach it and potentially one that 's m maybe a bit more systematic than what we 've done , uh , and a b a bit more inspiration from from auditory things . so it 's so i think it 's a neat thing to try . the primary features , um , are in fact yeah , essentially , it 's it 's , uh , you know , plp or or mel cepstrum , or something like that . you 've you 've got some , uh , compression . we always have some compression . we always have some you know , the the the kind of filter bank with a kind of quasi - log scaling . um , if you put in if you also include the rasta in it i rasta the filtering being done in the log domain has an agc - like , uh , characteristic , which , you know , people typi typically put in these kind of , uh , um , uh , auditory front - ends . so it 's very , very similar , uh , but it 's not exactly the same . um , i would agree that the second one is is somewhat more different but , um , it 's mainly different in that the things that we have been doing like that have been um , had a different kind of motivation and have ended up with different kinds of constraints . so , for instance , if you look at the lda rasta stuff , you know , basically what they do is they they look at the different eigenvectors out of the lda and they form filters out of it . right ? and those filters have different , uh , kinds of temporal extents and temporal characteristics . and so in fact they 're multi - scale . but , they 're not sort of systematically multi - scale , like `` let 's start here and go to there , and go to there , and go to there `` , and so forth . it 's more like , you run it on this , you do discriminant analysis , and you find out what 's helpful . grad c: i it 's multi - scale because you use several of these in parallel , professor b: yeah . they use several of them . grad c: is that right ? of professor b: yeah . grad c: ok . professor b: uh , i mean , you do n't have to but but but , uh , hynek has . um , but it 's also , uh hyn - when hynek 's had people do this kind of lda analysis , they 've done it on frequency direction and they 've done it on the time direction . i think he may have had people sometimes doing it on both simultaneously some two - d and that would be the closest to these gabor function kind of things . uh , but i do n't think they 've done that much of that . and , uh , the other thing that 's interesting the the , uh the feature selection thing , it 's a simple method , but i kinda like it . um , there 's a a old , old method for feature selection . i mean , eh , uh , i remember people referring to it as old when i was playing with it twenty years ago , so i know it 's pretty old , uh , called stepwise linear discriminant analysis in which you which i think it 's used in social sciences a lot . so , you you you you pick the best feature . and then you take y you find the next feature that 's the best in combination with it . and then so on and so on . and what what michael 's describing seems to me much , much better , because the problem with the stepwise discriminant analysis is that you do n't know that you know , if you 've picked the right set of features . just because something 's a good feature does n't mean that you should be adding it . so , um , uh , here at least you 're starting off with all of them , and you 're throwing out useless features . i think that 's that seems , uh that seems like a lot better idea . uh , you 're always looking at things in combination with other features . um , so the only thing is , of course , there 's this this artificial question of of , uh , exactly how you how you a how you assess it and if if your order had been different in throwing them out . i mean , it still is n't necessarily really optimal , but it seems like a pretty good heuristic . so i th i think it 's it 's i think it 's kinda neat stuff . grad e: hmm . professor b: and and and , uh , the thing that i wanted to to add to it also was to have us use this in a multi - stream way . grad e: hmm . professor b: um , so so that , um , when you come up with these different things , and these different functions , you do n't necessarily just put them all into one huge vector , but perhaps you have some of them in one stream and some of them in another stream , and so forth . and , um , um , { comment } um and we 've also talked a little bit about , uh , uh , shihab shamma 's stuff , in which you the way you look at it is that there 's these different mappings and some of them emphasize , uh , upward moving , uh , energy and fre and frequency . and some are emphasizing downward and fast things and slow things and and so forth . so . so there 's a bunch of stuff to look at . but , uh , i think we 're sorta gon na start off with what he , uh , came here with and branch out branch out from there . and his advisor is here , too , at the same time . so , he 'll be another interesting source of wisdom . grad e: hmm . professor b: so . grad e: as as we were talking about this i was thinking , um , whether there 's a relationship between um , between michael 's approach to , uh , some some sort of optimal brain damage or optimal brain surgeon on the neural nets . professor b: yeah . grad c: hmm . grad e: so , like , if we have , um we have our we have our rasta features and and presumably the neural nets are are learning some sort of a nonlinear mapping , uh , from the the the features to to this this probability posterior space . professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: right ? and , um and each of the hidden units is learning some sort of some sort of some sort of pattern . right ? and it could be , like like these , um these auditory patterns that michael is looking at . and then when you 're looking at the the , uh , um , the best features , you know , you can take out you can do the do this , uh , brain surgery by taking out , um , hidden units that do n't really help at all . professor b: mm - hmm . or the or features . grad e: and this is k sorta like professor b: right ? grad e: yeah . professor b: i mean , y actually , you make me think a a very important point here is that , um , if we a again try to look at how is this different from what we 're already doing , uh , there 's a a , uh a nasty argument that could be made th that it 's it 's not different at at all , because , uh if you ignore the the selection part because we are going into a a very powerful , uh , nonlinearity that , uh , in fact is combining over time and frequency , and is coming up with its own you know , better than gabor functions its , you know , neural net functions , grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: its { comment } whatever it finds to be best . grad c: professor b: um , so you could argue that in fact it but i i do n't actually believe that argument because i know that , um , you can , uh computing features is useful , even though in principle you have n't added anything in fact , you subtracted something , from the original waveform you know , uh , if you 've you 've processed it in some way you 've typically lost something some information . and so , you 've lost information and yet it does better with with features than it does with the waveform . so , uh , i i know that i sometimes it 's useful to to constrain things . so that 's why it really seems like the constraint in in all this stuff it 's the constraints that are actually what matters . because if it was n't the constraints that mattered , then we would 've completely solved this problem long ago , because long ago we already knew how to put waveforms into powerful statistical mechanisms . so . phd d: yeah . well , if we had infinite processing power and data , { comment } i guess , using the waveform could grad e: right . professor b: yeah uh , then it would work . yeah , i agree . yeah . there 's the problem . phd d: so , that 's professor b: yeah . then it would work . but but , i mean , i it 's with finite of those things i mean , uh , we we have done experiments where we literally have put waveforms in and and and , uh , phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: we kept the number of parameters the same and so forth , and it used a lot of training data . and it and it it , uh not infinite but a lot , and then compared to the number parameters and it it , uh it just does n't do nearly as well . so , anyway the point is that you want to suppress phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: it 's not just having the maximum information , you want to suppress , uh , the aspects of the input signal that are not helpful for for the discrimination you 're trying to make . so . so maybe just briefly , uh grad e: well , that sort of segues into what what i 'm doing . professor b: yeah . grad e: um , so , uh , the big picture is k um , come up with a set of , uh , intermediate categories , then build intermediate category classifiers , then do recognition , and , um , improve speech recognition in that way . um , so right now i 'm in in the phase where i 'm looking at at , um , deciding on a initial set of intermediate categories . and i 'm looking for data data - driven methods that can help me find , um , a set of intermediate categories of speech that , uh , will help me to discriminate later down the line . and one of the ideas , um , that was to take a take a neural net train train an ordinary neural net to uh , to learn the posterior probabilities of phones . and so , um , at the end of the day you have this neural net and it has hidden hidden units . and each of these hidden units is um , is learning some sort of pattern . and so , um , what what are these patterns ? phd a: hmm . grad e: i do n't know . um , and i 'm gon na to try to to look at those patterns to to see , um , from those patterns uh , presumably those are important patterns for discriminating between phone classes . and maybe maybe some , uh , intermediate categories can come from just looking at the patterns of um , that the neural net learns . professor b: be - before you get on the next part l let me just point out that s there 's there 's a a pretty nice { comment } relationship between what you 're talking about doing and what you 're talking about doing there . right ? grad e: yeah . professor b: so , it seems to me that , you know , if you take away the the the difference of this primary features , and , say , you use as we had talked about maybe doing you use p - rasta - plp or something for the the primary features , um , then this feature discovery , uh , uh , thing is just what he 's talking about doing , too , except that he 's talking about doing them in order to discover intermediate categories that correspond to these uh , uh , what these sub - features are are are are showing you . and , um , the other difference is that , um , he 's doing this in a in a multi - band setting , which means that he 's constraining himself to look across time in some f relatively limited , uh , uh , spectral extent . right ? and whereas in in this case you 're saying `` let 's just do it unconstrained `` . so they 're they 're really pretty related and maybe they 'll be at some point where we 'll see the the connections a little better and connect them . grad c: hmm . grad e: mm - hmm . um . yeah , so so that 's the that 's the first part uh , one one of the ideas to get at some some patterns of intermediate categories . um , the other one was , um , to , uh , come up with a a a model { comment } um , a graphical model , that treats the intermediate categories as hidden hidden variables , latent variables , that we do n't know anything about , but that through , um , s statistical training and the em algorithm , um , at the end of the day , we have , um we have learned something about these these latent , um latent variables which happen to correspond to intermediate categories . um . yeah , and so those are the the two directions that i 'm i 'm looking into right now . and , uh , um yeah . i guess that 's that 's it . professor b: ok . should we do our digits and get ou get our treats ? grad e: oh , tea time ? professor b: yeah . it 's kind of like , you know , the little rats with the little thing dropping down to them . phd a: that 's ri professor b: we do the digits and then we get our treats . grad e: oops . phd a: ok .

phd d expressed that the resynthesized version of the speech that lpc gave was not the same as speech . though , the excitations were more clear in the resynthesized version .

summarize the discussion on histogram equalization </s> phd a: eh , we should be going . professor b: so ne next week we 'll have , uh , both birger and , uh , mike michael michael kleinschmidt and birger kollmeier will join us . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: um , and you 're you 're probably gon na go up in a couple three weeks or so ? when d when are you thinking of going up to , uh , ogi ? phd d: yeah , like , uh , not next week but maybe the week after . professor b: ok . good . so at least we 'll have one meeting with yo with you still around , and and phd d: uh - huh . professor b: that 's good . phd d: um , yeah . well , maybe we can start with this . mmm . professor b: all today , huh ? phd d: yeah . professor b: oh . phd d: um . yeah . so there was this conference call this morning , um , and the only topic on the agenda was just to discuss a and to come at uh , to get a decision about this latency problem . professor b: no , this i 'm sorry , this is a conference call between different aurora people or just ? phd d: uh , yeah . it 's the conference call between the aurora , uh , group . professor b: it 's the main conference call . ok . phd d: uh , yeah . there were like two hours of discussions , and then suddenly , uh , people were tired , i guess , and they decided on a number , two hundred and twenty , um , included e including everything . uh , it means that it 's like eighty milliseconds less than before . professor b: and what are we sitting at currently ? phd d: um . professor b: yeah . phd d: so , currently d uh , we have system that has two hundred and thirty . so , that 's fine . professor b: two thirty . phd d: yeah . so that 's the system that 's described on the second point of this document . professor b: so it 's we have to reduce it by ten milliseconds somehow . phd d: yeah . but that 's yeah . that 's not a problem , i i guess . professor b: ok . w it 's it 's p d primary primarily determined by the vad at this point , phd d: um . professor b: right ? phd d: yeah . professor b: s so we can make the vad a little shorter . phd d: yeah . at this point , yeah . professor b: that 's phd d: yeah , uh - huh . professor b: yeah . we probably should do that pretty soon so that we do n't get used to it being a certain way . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: yeah . phd d: um . professor b: was hari on the on the phone ? phd d: yeah , sure . professor b: ok . phd d: well , it was mainly a discussion between hari and david , professor b: hmm . phd d: who was like professor b: yeah . phd d: uh , professor b: ok . phd d: mmm uh , yeah . so , the second thing is the system that we have currently . oh , yes . we have , like , a system that gives sixty - two percent improvement , but if you want to stick to the this latency well , it has a latency of two thirty , but if you want also to stick to the number of features that limit it to sixty , then we go a little bit down but it 's still sixty - one percent . uh , and if we drop the tandem network , then we have fifty - seven percent . professor b: uh , but th the two th two thirty includes the tandem network ? phd d: yeah . professor b: ok . and i is the tandem network , uh , small enough that it will fit on the terminal size in terms of ? phd d: uh , no , i do n't think so . professor b: no . phd d: no . professor b: ok . phd d: it 's still in terms of computation , if we use , like , their way of computing the the maps the the mips , i think it fits , professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: but it 's , uh , m mainly a problem of memory . professor b: right . phd d: um , and i do n't know how much this can be discussed or not , because it 's it could be in rom , so it 's maybe not that expensive . but professor b: ho - how much memory d ? h how many ? phd d: i d i d uh , i i do n't kn remember exactly , but uh . yeah , i c i i have to check that . professor b: yeah . i 'd like to see that , cuz maybe i could think a little bit about it , cuz we maybe we could make it a little smaller or i mean , it 'd be it 'd be neat if we could fit it all . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: uh , i 'd like to see how far off we are . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: but i guess it 's still within their rules to have have it on the , uh , t uh , server side . right ? phd d: yeah . yeah . professor b: ok . phd d: mmm . professor b: and this is still ? uh , well , y you 're saying here . i c i should just let you go on . phd d: yeah , there were small tricks to make this tandem network work . uh , mmm , and one of the trick was to , um , use some kind of hierarchical structure where the silence probability is not computed by the final tandem network but by the vad network . um , so apparently it looks better when , uh , we use the silence probability from the vad network professor b: huh . phd d: and we re - scale the other probabilities by one minus the silence probability . um . so it 's some kind of hierarchical thing , uh , that sunil also tried , um , on spine and apparently it helps a little bit also . mmm . and . yeah , the reason w why why we did that with the silence probability was that , um professor b: could ? uh , uh , i 'm i 'm really sorry . can you repeat what you were saying about the silence probability ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: i only my mind was some phd d: yeah . so there is the tandem network that e e e estimates the phone probabilities professor b: yeah . yeah . phd d: and the silence probabilities also . professor b: right . phd d: and things get better when , instead of using the silence probability computed by the tandem network , we use the silence probability , uh , given by the vad network , professor b: oh . phd d: um , professor b: the vad network is ? phd d: which is smaller , but maybe , um so we have a network for the vad which has one hundred hidden units , and the tandem network has five hundred . um . so it 's smaller but th the silence probability from this network seems , uh , better . professor b: ok . phd d: mmm . uh . well , it looks strange , but professor b: yeah . but phd d: but it professor b: ok . phd d: maybe it 's has something to do to the fact that we do n't have infinite training data and professor b: we do n't ? phd d: well ! and so well , things are not optimal professor b: yeah . phd d: and mmm grad e: are you you were going to say why what made you wh what led you to do that . phd d: yeah . uh , there was a p { comment } problem that we observed , um , that there was there were , like , many insertions in the in the system . professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: mmm . professor b: hmm . phd d: actually plugging in the tandem network was increasing , i i i think , the number of insertions . professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: and , um so it looked strange and then just using the the other silence probability helps . mmm . um yeah . the next thing we will do is train this tandem on more data . professor b: so , you know , in a way what it might i it 's it 's a little bit like combining knowledge sources . phd d: um professor b: right ? because the fact that you have these two nets that are different sizes means they behave a little differently , phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: they find different things . and , um , if you have , um f the distribution that you have from , uh , f speech sounds is w { comment } sort of one source of knowledge . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: and this is and rather than just taking one minus that to get the other , which is essentially what 's happening , you have this other source of knowledge that you 're putting in there . so you make use of both of them in in what you 're ending up with . maybe it 's better . phd d: yeah . professor b: anyway , you can probably justify anything if what 's use phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd d: and and the features are different also . i mean , the vad does n't use the same features there are . professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: hmm . professor b: oh ! phd d: um professor b: that might be the key , actually . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: cuz you were really thinking about speech versus nonspeech for that . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: that 's a good point . phd d: mmm . uh . well , there are other things that we should do but , um , it requires time and we have ideas , like so , these things are like hav having a better vad . uh , we have some ideas about that . it would probably implies working a little bit on features that are more suited to a voice activity detection . professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: working on the second stream . of course we have ideas on this also , but w we need to try different things and uh , but their noise estimation , um uh professor b: i mean , back on the second stream , i mean , that 's something we 've talked about for a while . i mean , i think that 's certainly a high hope . phd d: yeah . mmm . professor b: um , so we have this this default idea about just using some sort of purely spectral thing ? phd d: uh , yeah . professor b: for a second stream ? phd d: but , um , we we did a first try with this , and it it clearly hurts . professor b: but , uh , how was the stream combined ? phd d: uh . it was c it was just combined , um , by the acoustic model . so there was , no neural network for the moment . professor b: right . so , i mean , if you just had a second stream that was just spectral and had another neural net and combined there , that that , uh , might be good . phd d: mm - hmm . yeah . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mmm . yeah . um yeah , and the other thing , that noise estimation and th um , maybe try to train uh , the training data for the t tandem network , right now , is like i is using the noises from the aurora task and i think that people might , um , try to argue about that because then in some cases we have the same noises in for training the network than the noises that are used for testing , professor b: right . phd d: and so we have t n uh , to try to get rid of these this problem . professor b: yeah . maybe you just put in some other noise , something that 's different . phd d: mm - hmm . yeah . professor b: i mean , it it 's probably helpful to have have a little noise there . but it may be something else phd d: uh - huh . professor b: th at least you could say it was . phd d: yeah . professor b: and then if it does n't hurt too much , though . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: yeah . that 's a good idea . phd d: um . yeah . the last thing is that i think we are getting close to human performance . well , that 's something i would like to investigate further , but , um , i did , like , um i did , uh , listen to the m most noisy utterances of the speechdat - car italian and tried to transcribe them . and , um professor b: so this is a particular human . this is this i this is stephane . phd d: yeah . so that 's that 's grad e: st - stephane . professor b: yeah . phd d: that 's the the flaw of the experiment . this is just i j { comment } it 's just one subject , professor b: yeah . grad e: getting close . phd d: but but still , uh , what happens is is that , uh , the digit error rate on this is around one percent , professor b: yeah . phd d: while our system is currently at seven percent . um , but what happens also is that if i listen to the , um a re - synthesized version of the speech and i re - synthesized this using a white noise that 's filtered by a lpc , uh , filter professor b: yeah . phd d: um , well , you can argue , that , uh that this is not speech , professor b: yeah . phd d: so the ear is not trained to recognize this . but s actually it sound like whispering , so we are professor b: well , i mean , it 's phd d: eh professor b: there 's two problems there . i mean i mean , so so the first is that by doing lpc - twelve with synthesized speech w like you 're saying , uh , it 's i i you 're you 're adding other degradation . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: right ? so it 's not just the noise but you 're adding in fact some degradation because it 's only an approximation . um , and the second thing is which is m maybe more interesting is that , um , { comment } if you do it with whispered speech , you get this number . what if you had done analysis { comment } re - synthesis and taken the pitch as well ? alright ? so now you put the pitch in . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: what would the percentage be then ? phd d: um professor b: see , that 's the question . so , you see , if it 's if it 's if it 's , uh let 's say it 's back down to one percent again . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: that would say at least for people , having the pitch is really , really important , which would be interesting in itself . um , phd d: uh , yeah . but professor b: if i on the other hand , if it stayed up near five percent , then i 'd say `` boy , lpc n twelve is pretty crummy `` . you know ? phd d: uh - huh . professor b: so i i i 'm not sure i 'm not sure how we can conclude from this anything about that our system is close to the human performance . phd d: ye yeah . well , the point is that eh l ey the point is that , um , what i what i listened to when i re - synthesized the lp - the lpc - twelve spectrum is in a way what the system , uh , is hearing , cuz @ @ all the all the , um , excitation all the well , the excitation is is not taken into account . that 's what we do with our system . and professor b: well , you 're not doing the lpc phd d: in this case professor b: i mean , so so what if you did a phd d: well , it 's not lpc , sure , professor b: what if you did lpc - twenty ? phd d: but lpc ? professor b: twenty . right ? i mean , th the thing is lpc is not a a really great representation of speech . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: so , all i 'm saying is that you have in addition to the w the , uh , removal of pitch , you also are doing , uh , a particular parameterization , phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: which , um , uh phd d: mmm . professor b: uh , so , let 's see , how would you do ? so , fo phd d: but that 's that 's what we do with our systems . and professor b: no . actually , we d we we do n't , because we do we do , uh , uh , mel filter bank , for instance . right ? phd d: yeah , but is it that is it that different , i mean ? professor b: um , i do n't know what mel , uh , based synthesis would sound like , phd d: i professor b: but certainly the spectra are quite different . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: could n't you t could n't you , um , test the human performance on just the original audio ? phd d: mm - hmm . this is the one percent number . professor b: yeah , it 's one percent . he 's trying to remove the pitch information phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: oh , oh . ok , phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: i see . professor b: and make it closer to what to what we 're seeing as the feature vectors . phd a: ok . so , y uh , your performance was one percent , and then when you re - synthesize with lpc - twelve it went to five . phd d: uh - huh . yeah . phd a: ok . professor b: i mean we were we were j it it it 's a little bit still apples and oranges because we are choosing these features in order to be the best for recognition . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: and , um , i if you listen to them they still might not be very even if you made something closer to what we 're gon na i it might not sound very good . phd d: yeah . professor b: uh , and i the degradation from that might might actually make it even harder , uh , to understand than the lpc - twelve . so all i 'm saying is that the lpc - twelve puts in synthesis puts in some degradation that 's not what we 're used to hearing , phd d: uh - huh . professor b: and is , um it 's not it 's not just a question of how much information is there , as if you will always take maximum advantage of any information that 's presented to you . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: in fact , you hear some things better than others . and so it it is n't phd a: but professor b: but , i agree that it says that , uh , the kind of information that we 're feeding it is probably , um , um , a little bit , um , minimal . there 's definitely some things that we 've thrown away . and that 's why i was saying it might be interesting if you an interesting test of this would be if you if you actually put the pitch back in . so , you just extract it from the actual speech and put it back in , and see does that is that does that make the difference ? if that if that takes it down to one percent again , then you 'd say `` ok , it 's it 's in fact having , um , not just the spectral envelope but also the also the the pitch that , uh , { comment } @ @ { comment } has the information that people can use , anyway . `` phd d: uh - huh . mmm . phd a: but from this it 's pretty safe to say that the system is with either two to seven percent away from the performance of a human . right ? so it 's somewhere in that range . professor b: well , or it 's it 's phd a: two two to six percent . professor b: yeah , so it 's it 's one point four times , uh , to , uh , seven times the error , phd d: to f seven times , yeah . professor b: for stephane . phd d: um . professor b: so , uh uh , but i i do n't know . i do do n't wan na take you away from other things . phd d: but { comment } but professor b: but that 's that 's what that 's the first thing that i would be curious about , is , you know , i i when you we phd d: but the signal itself is like a mix of um , of a a periodic sound and , @ @ { comment } uh , unvoiced sound , and the noise professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: which is mostly , uh , noise . i mean not periodic . so , what what do you mean exactly by putting back the pitch in ? because phd a: in the lpc synthesis ? i think professor b: yeah . you did lpc re - synthesis phd d: i professor b: l pc re - synthesis . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: so , uh and you did it with a noise source , rather than with with a s periodic source . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: right ? so if you actually did real re - synthesis like you do in an lpc synthesizer , where it 's unvoiced you use noise , where it 's voiced you use , uh , periodic pulses . phd d: um . professor b: right ? phd d: yeah , but it 's neither purely voiced or purely unvoiced . esp - especially because there is noise . professor b: well , it might be hard to do it phd d: so professor b: but it but but the thing is that if you um , if you detect that there 's periodic s strong periodic components , then you can use a voiced voice thing . phd d: oh . uh - huh . yeah . professor b: yeah . i mean , it 's probably not worth your time . it 's it 's a side thing and and and there 's a lot to do . phd d: uh - huh , yeah . professor b: but i 'm i 'm just saying , at least as a thought experiment , that 's what i would wan na test . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: uh , i wan would wan na drive it with a a a two - source system rather than a than a one - source system . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: and then that would tell you whether in fact it 's cuz we 've talked about , like , this harmonic tunneling or other things that people have done based on pitch , maybe that 's really a key element . maybe maybe , uh , uh , without that , it 's it 's not possible to do a whole lot better than we 're doing . that that could be . phd d: yeah . that 's what i was thinking by doing this es experiment , professor b: yeah . phd d: like mmm . evi professor b: but , i mean , other than that , i do n't think it 's i mean , other than the pitch de information , it 's hard to imagine that there 's a whole lot more in the signal that that , uh that we 're throwing away that 's important . phd d: yeah , but yeah . mm - hmm . yeah , right . professor b: right ? i mean , we 're using a fair number of filters in the filter bank and uh phd d: mm - hmm . uh , yeah . professor b: hmm . yeah . phd d: um . professor b: yeah . that look phd d: yeah , that 's it . professor b: yeah . that 's that 's i mean , one one percent is sort of what i would i would figure . if somebody was paying really close attention , you might get i would actually think that if , you looked at people on various times of the day and different amounts of attention , you might actually get up to three or four percent error on digits . uh , uh phd d: mm - hmm . um . professor b: so it 's you know , we 're not we 're not incredibly far off . on the other hand , with any of these numbers except maybe the one percent , it 's st it 's not actually usable in a commercial system with a full telephone number or something . phd d: uh - huh . yeah . at these noise levels . professor b: yeah . phd d: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: right . phd d: well , yeah . these numbers , i mean . mmm . professor b: good . um , while we 're still on aurora stuff maybe you can talk a little about the status with the , uh , wall street journal things for it . phd a: so i 've , um , downloaded , uh , a couple of things from mississippi state . um , one is their software their , uh , lvcsr system . downloaded the latest version of that . got it compiled and everything . um , downloaded the scripts . they wrote some scripts that sort of make it easy to run the system on the wall street journal , uh , data . um , so i have n't run the scripts yet . uh , i 'm waiting there was one problem with part of it and i wrote a note to joe asking him about it . so i 'm waiting to hear from him . but , um , i did print something out just to give you an idea about where the system is . uh , they on their web site they , uh , did this little table of where their system performs relative to other systems that have done this this task . and , um , the mississippi state system using a bigram grammar , uh , is at about eight point two percent . other comparable systems from , uh were getting from , uh , like six point nine , six point eight percent . so they 're professor b: this is on clean test set ? phd a: this is on clean on clean stuff . yeah . they they 've started a table where they 're showing their results on various different noise conditions but they they do n't have a whole lot of it filled in and and i did n't notice until after i 'd printed it out that , um , they do n't say here what these different testing conditions are . professor b: phd a: you actually have to click on it on the web site to see them . so i i do n't know what those numbers really mean . professor b: what kind of numbers are they getting on these on the test conditions ? phd a: well , see , i was a little confused because on this table , i 'm the they 're showing word error rate . but on this one , i i do n't know if these are word error rates because they 're really big . so , under condition one here it 's ten percent . then under three it goes to sixty - four point six percent . professor b: yeah , that 's probably aurora . phd a: yeah . professor b: i mean phd a: so m i guess maybe they 're error rates but they 're , uh they 're really high . professor b: i i i do n't find that surpri phd a: so professor b: i mean , we w what 's what 's some of the lower error rates on on on uh , some of the higher error rates on , uh , some of these w uh , uh , highly mismatched difficult conditions ? what 's a ? phd d: uh . yeah , it 's around fifteen to twenty percent . phd a: correct ? phd d: and the baseline , eh phd a: accuracy ? phd d: uh , error rate . professor b: yeah . phd d: twenty percent error rate , professor b: yeah . so twenty percent error rate on digits . phd d: and phd a: oh , oh , on digits . professor b: so if you 're doing so if you 're doing , phd d: and phd a: yeah . phd d: on digits . phd a: ok . professor b: you know , phd d: and this is so so still the baseline . professor b: sixty - thousand phd d: right ? phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah , and if you 're saying sixty - thousand word recognition , getting sixty percent error on some of these noise condition not at all surprising . phd a: yeah . phd d: the baseline is sixty percent also on digits , phd a: oh , is it ? phd d: on the m more mismatched conditions . phd a: ok . professor b: yeah . phd d: so . phd a: so , yeah , that 's probably what it is then . yeah . so they have a lot of different conditions that they 're gon na be filling out . professor b: it 's a bad sign when you looking at the numbers , you ca n't tell whether it 's accuracy or error rate . phd a: yeah . yeah . it 's it 's gon na be hard . um , they 're i i 'm still waiting for them to release the , um , multi - cpu version of their scripts , cuz right now their script only handles processing on a single cpu , which will take a really long time to run . so . but their s professor b: this is for the training ? phd a: uh i beli yes , for the training also . and , um , they 're supposed to be coming out with it any time , professor b: ok . phd a: the multi - cpu one . so , as soon as they get that , then i 'll i 'll grab those too professor b: ok . phd a: and so w professor b: yeah . cuz we have to get started , phd a: yeah . professor b: cuz it 's cuz , uh , phd a: yeah . i 'll go ahead and try to run it though with just the single cpu one , professor b: if the phd a: and i they they , um , released like a smaller data set that you can use that only takes like sixteen hours to train and stuff . so i can i can run it on that just to make sure that the the thing works and everything . professor b: oh ! good . yeah . cuz we 'll grad e: hmm . professor b: i guess the actual evaluation will be in six weeks or something . so . is that about right you think ? phd d: uh , we do n't know yet , i i think . professor b: really , we do n't know ? phd d: uh - huh . um . phd a: it was n't on the conference call this morning ? professor b: hmm . phd d: no . phd a: hmm . did they say anything on the conference call about , um , how the wall street journal part of the test was going to be run ? because i i thought i remembered hearing that some sites were saying that they did n't have the compute to be able to run the wall street journal stuff at their place , phd d: no . mmm . phd a: so there was some talk about having mississippi state run the systems for them . and i did did that come up at all ? phd d: uh , no . well , this first , this was not the point at all of this the meeting today phd a: oh , ok . phd d: and , professor b: some phd d: uh , frankly , i do n't know because i d { comment } did n't read also the most recent mails about the large - vocabulary task . but , uh , did you do you still , uh , get the mails ? you 're not on the mailing list or what ? phd a: hmm - mm . the only , um , mail i get is from mississippi state phd d: uh - huh . phd a: so phd d: oh , yeah . so we should have a look at this . phd a: about their system . i i do n't get any mail about professor b: i have to say , there 's uh something funny - sounding about saying that one of these big companies does n't have enough cup compute power do that , so they 're having to have it done by mississippi state . phd a: yeah . professor b: it just just sounds funny . phd a: yeah . it does . professor b: but , phd a: yeah . i 'm i 'm wondering about that professor b: anyway . phd a: because there 's this whole issue about , you know , simple tuning parameters , like word insertion penalties . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: and whether or not those are going to be tuned or not , and { comment } so . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: i mean , it makes a big difference . if you change your front - end , you know , the scale is completely can be completely different , so . it seems reasonable that that at least should be tweaked to match the front - end . but phd d: you did n't get any answer from joe ? phd a: i did , but joe said , you know , `` what you 're saying makes sense phd d: uh - huh . phd a: and i do n't know `` . so he does n't know what the answer is . phd d: uh - huh . phd a: i mean , that 's th we had this back and forth a little bit about , you know , are sites gon na are you gon na run this data for different sites ? and , well , if if mississippi state runs it , then maybe they 'll do a little optimization on that parameter , and , uh but then he was n't asked to run it for anybody . so i it 's it 's just not clear yet what 's gon na happen . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: uh , he 's been putting this stuff out on their web site and for people to grab but i have n't heard too much about what 's happening . professor b: so it could be i mean , chuck and i had actually talked about this a couple times , and and over some lunches , i think , that , um , one thing that we might wan na do the - there 's this question about , you know , what do you wan na scale ? suppose y you ca n't adjust these word insertion penalties and so forth , so you have to do everything at the level of the features . what could you do ? and , uh , one thing i had suggested at an earlier time was maybe some sort of scaling , some sort of root or or something of the , um , uh , features . but the problem with that is that is n't quite the same , it occurred to me later , because what you really want to do is scale the , uh , @ @ { comment } the range of the likelihoods rather than phd d: nnn , the dist yeah . professor b: but , what might get at something similar , it just occurred to me , is kind of an intermediate thing is because we do this strange thing that we do with the tandem system , at least in that system what you could do is take the , um , uh , values that come out of the net , which are something like log probabilities , and scale those . and then , uh , um then at least those things would have the right values or the right the right range . and then that goes into the rest of it and then that 's used as observations . so it 's it 's , um , another way to do it . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . but , these values are not directly used as probabilities anyway . professor b: i know they 're not . phd d: so there are there is professor b: i know they 're not . but but , you know so because what we 're doing is pretty strange and complicated , we do n't really know what the effect is at the other end . phd d: uh - huh . mm - hmm . professor b: so , um , my thought was maybe i mean , they 're not used as probabilities , but the log probabilities we 're taking advantage of the fact that something like log probabilities has more of a gaussian shape than gaus - than probabilities , and so we can model them better . so , in a way we 're taking advantage of the fact that they 're probabilities , because they 're this quantity that looks kind of gaussian when you take it 's log . so , { comment } uh , maybe maybe it would have a a reasonable effect to do that . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: i d i do n't know . but , i mean , i guess we still have n't had a a ruling back on this . and we may end up being in a situation where we just you know really ca n't change the word insertion penalty . but the other thing we could do is also we could i mean , this this may not help us , uh , in the evaluation but it might help us in our understanding at least . we might , just run it with different insper insertion penalties , and show that , uh , `` well , ok , not changing it , playing the rules the way you wanted , we did this . but in fact if we did that , it made a a big difference . `` phd a: i wonder if it it might be possible to , uh , simulate the back - end with some other system . so we we get our f front - end features , and then , uh , as part of the process of figuring out the scaling of these features , { comment } you know , if we 're gon na take it to a root or to a power or something , { comment } we have some back - end that we attach onto our features that sort of simulates what would be happening . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: um , professor b: and just adjust it until it 's the best number ? phd a: and just adjust it until that our l version of the back - end , uh , decides that that professor b: well , we can probably use the real thing , ca n't we ? and then jus just , uh , use it on a reduced test set or something . phd a: yeah . oh , yeah . that 's true . professor b: yeah . phd a: and then we just use that to determine some scaling factor that we use . professor b: yeah . so i mean , i i think that that 's a reasonable thing to do and the only question is what 's the actual knob that we use ? phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and the knob that we use should uh , uh , unfortunately , like i say , i do n't know the analytic solution to this cuz what we really want to do is change the scale of the likelihoods , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: not the cha not the scale of the the observations . but but , uh phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . grad e: out of curiosity , what what kind of recognizer is the one from mississippi state ? phd a: uh , w what do you mean when you say `` what kind `` ? grad e: is it ? um , is it like a gaussian mixture model ? phd a: yeah . gaussian mixture model . grad e: ok . phd a: it 's the same system that they use when they participate in the hub - five evals . it 's a , um sort of came out of , uh uh , looking a lot like htk . i mean , they started off with um , when they were building their system they were always comparing to htk to make sure they were getting similar results . and so , it 's a gaussian mixture system , uh professor b: do they have the same sort of mix - down sort of procedure , where they start off with a small number of some things phd a: i do n't know . yeah . and then divide the mixtures in half . professor b: and ? yeah . phd a: i do n't know if they do that . i 'm not really sure . professor b: yeah . grad e: hmm . professor b: d do you know what kind of tying they use ? are they they sort of some sort of a bunch of gaussians that they share across everything ? or or if it 's ? phd a: yeah , th i have i i i do n't have it up here but i have a the whole system description , that describes exactly what their system is professor b: ok . phd a: and i i 'm not sure . but , um professor b: ok . phd a: it 's some kind of a mixture of gaussians and , uh , clustering and , uh they 're they 're trying to put in sort of all of the standard features that people use nowadays . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: so the other , uh , aurora thing maybe is i i dunno if any of this is gon na come in in time to be relevant , but , uh , we had talked about , uh , { comment } guenter playing around , uh , uh , over in germany phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: and and , @ @ { comment } uh , possibly coming up with something that would , uh , uh , fit in later . uh , i saw that other mail where he said that he uh , it was n't going to work for him to do cvs . phd d: yeah . yeah . so now he has a version of the software . professor b: so he just has it all sitting there . yeah . phd d: yeah . um mm - hmm . professor b: so if he 'll he might work on improving the noise estimate or on some histogram things , or phd d: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . i just saw the eurospeech we we did n't talk about it at our meeting but i just saw the just read the paper . someone , i forget the name , { comment } and and ney , uh , about histogram equalization ? did you see that one ? phd d: um , it was a poster . or professor b: yeah . i mean , i just read the paper . phd d: yeah . professor b: i did n't see the poster . phd d: yeah . um it was something similar to n on - line normalization finally i mean , in the idea of of normalizing professor b: yeah . but it 's a little more it it 's a little finer , right ? so they had like ten quantiles phd d: yeah . professor b: and and they adjust the distribution . phd d: right . professor b: so you you have the distributions from the training set , phd d: n professor b: and then , uh so this is just a a histogram of of the amplitudes , i guess . right ? and then um , people do this in image processing some . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: you have this kind of of histogram of of levels of brightness or whatever . and and and then , when you get a new new thing that you you want to adjust to be better in some way , you adjust it so that the histogram of the new data looks like the old data . phd a: hmm . professor b: you do this kind of piece - wise linear or , uh , some kind of piece - wise approximation . they did a uh one version that was piece - wise linear and another that had a power law thing between them between the points . and , uh , they said they s they sort of see it in a way as s for the speech case { comment } as being kind of a generalization of spectral subtraction in a way , because , you know , in spectral subtraction you 're trying to get rid of this excess energy . uh , you know , it 's not supposed to be there . uh and , uh , this is sort of adjusting it for for a lot of different levels . and then they have s they have some kind of , uh , a floor or something , grad e: hmm . professor b: so if it gets too low you do n't do n't do it . phd a: hmm . professor b: and they they claimed very nice results , phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: so is this a histogram across different frequency bins ? professor b: and phd a: or ? professor b: um , i think this i you know , i do n't remember that . do you remember ? phd d: i think they have , yeah , different histograms . i uh something like one per frequency band , professor b: one phd a: so , one histogram per frequency bin . professor b: one per critical phd d: or but i did yeah , i guess . phd a: and that 's phd d: but i should read the paper . i just went through the poster quickly , professor b: yeah . phd a: so th professor b: and i do n't remember whether it was filter bank things phd a: oh . phd d: and i did n't professor b: or whether it was fft bins phd a: huh . professor b: or phd a: and and that that , um , histogram represents the different energy levels that have been seen at that frequency ? professor b: i do n't remember that . and how often they you 've seen them . yeah . phd a: uh - huh . grad e: hmm . professor b: yeah . and they do they said that they could do it for the test so you do n't have to change the training . you just do a measurement over the training . and then , uh , for testing , uh , you can do it for one per utterance . even relatively short utterances . and they claim it it works pretty well . phd a: so they , uh is the idea that you you run a test utterance through some histogram generation thing and then you compare the histograms and that tells you what to do to the utterance to make it more like ? professor b: i guess in pri yeah . in principle . phd a: i see . professor b: i did n't read carefully how they actually implemented it , phd a: hmm . yeah . professor b: whether it was some , uh , on - line thing , or whether it was a second pass , or what . but but they that that was sort of the idea . phd a: hmm . professor b: so that that seemed , you know , different . we 're sort of curious about , uh , what are some things that are , u u um , @ @ { comment } conceptually quite different from what we 've done . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: cuz we you know , one thing that w that , uh , stephane and sunil seemed to find , uh , was , you know , they could actually make a unified piece of software that handled a range of different things that people were talking about , and it was really just sort of setting of different constants . and it would turn , you know , one thing into another . it 'd turn wiener filtering into spectral subtraction , or whatever . but there 's other things that we 're not doing . so , we 're not making any use of pitch , uh , uh , which again , might might be important , uh , because the stuff between the harmonics is probably a schmutz . and and the , uh , transcribers will have fun with that . uh and , um , the , uh , stuff at the harmonics is n't so much . and and , uh and we there 's this overall idea of really sort of matching the the hi distributions somehow . uh , not just , um , um not just subtracting off your estimate of the noise . so . so i guess , uh , guenter 's gon na play around with some of these things now over this next period , phd d: uh , i dunno . professor b: or ? phd d: i do n't have feedback from him , but professor b: yeah . phd d: i guess he 's gon na , maybe professor b: well , he 's got it anyway , so he can . phd d: yeah . professor b: so potentially if he came up with something that was useful , like a diff a better noise estimation module or something , he could ship it to you guys u up there phd d: uh - huh . professor b: and phd d: yeah . professor b: we could put it in . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . yeah . so , that 's good . so , why do n't we just , uh , um i think starting starting a w couple weeks from now , especially if you 're not gon na be around for a while , we 'll we 'll be shifting more over to some other other territory . but , uh , uh , { comment } uh , n not not so much in this meeting about aurora , but but , uh , uh , maybe just , uh , quickly today about maybe you could just say a little bit about what you 've been talking about with michael . and and then barry can say something about what { comment } what we 're talking about . grad c: ok . so michael kleinschmidt , who 's a phd student from germany , showed up this week . he 'll be here for about six months . and he 's done some work using an auditory model of , um , human hearing , and using that f uh , to generate speech recognition features . and he did work back in germany with , um , a toy recognition system using , um , isolated digit recognition as the task . it was actually just a single - layer neural network that classified words classified digits , in fact . um , and he tried that on i think on some aurora data and got results that he thought seemed respectable . and he w he 's coming here to u u use it on a uh , a real speech recognition system . so i 'll be working with him on that . and , um , maybe i should say a little more about these features , although i do n't understand them that well . the i think it 's a two - stage idea . and , um , the first stage of these features correspond to what 's called the peripheral auditory system . and i guess that is like a filter bank with a compressive nonlinearity . and i 'm - i 'm not sure what we have @ @ in there that is n't already modeled in something like , um , plp . i should learn more about that . and then the second stage is , um , the most different thing , i think , from what we usually do . it 's , um it computes features which are , um , based on sort of like based on diffe different w um , wavelet basis functions used to analyze the input . so th he uses analysis functions called gabor functions , um , which have a certain extent , um , in time and in frequency . and the idea is these are used to sample , um , the signal in a represented as a time - frequency representation . so you 're sampling some piece of this time - frequency plane . and , um , that , um , is is interesting , cuz , @ @ for for one thing , you could use it , um , in a a multi - scale way . you could have these instead of having everything like we use a twenty - five millisecond or so analysis window , typically , um , and that 's our time scale for features , but you could using this , um , basis function idea , you could have some basis functions which have a lot longer time scale and , um , some which have a lot shorter , and so it would be like a set of multi - scale features . so he 's interested in , um th - this is because it 's , um there are these different parameters for the shape of these basis functions , um there are a lot of different possible basis functions . and so he he actually does an optimization procedure to choose an an optimal set of basis functions out of all the possible ones . phd a: hmm . h what does he do to choose those ? grad c: the method he uses is kind of funny is , { comment } um , he starts with he has a set of m of them . um , he and then he uses that to classify i mean , he t he tries , um , using just m minus one of them . so there are m possible subsets of this length - m vector . he tries classifying , using each of the m possible sub - vectors . phd d: hmm . grad c: whichever sub - vector , um , works the the best , i guess , he says the the fe feature that did n't use was the most useless feature , professor b: y yeah . gets thrown out . yeah . grad c: so we 'll throw it out and we 're gon na randomly select another feature from the set of possible basis functions . phd a: hmm ! professor b: yeah . phd a: so it 's a professor b: so i so it 's actuall phd a: it 's a little bit like a genetic algorithm or something in a way . professor b: well , it 's it 's much simpler . grad e: it 's like a greedy professor b: but it 's but it 's uh , it 's there 's a lot number of things i like about it , let me just say . phd a: greedy . professor b: so , first thing , well , you 're absolutely right . i mean , i i in truth , both pieces of this are have their analogies in stuff we already do . but it 's a different take at how to approach it and potentially one that 's m maybe a bit more systematic than what we 've done , uh , and a b a bit more inspiration from from auditory things . so it 's so i think it 's a neat thing to try . the primary features , um , are in fact yeah , essentially , it 's it 's , uh , you know , plp or or mel cepstrum , or something like that . you 've you 've got some , uh , compression . we always have some compression . we always have some you know , the the the kind of filter bank with a kind of quasi - log scaling . um , if you put in if you also include the rasta in it i rasta the filtering being done in the log domain has an agc - like , uh , characteristic , which , you know , people typi typically put in these kind of , uh , um , uh , auditory front - ends . so it 's very , very similar , uh , but it 's not exactly the same . um , i would agree that the second one is is somewhat more different but , um , it 's mainly different in that the things that we have been doing like that have been um , had a different kind of motivation and have ended up with different kinds of constraints . so , for instance , if you look at the lda rasta stuff , you know , basically what they do is they they look at the different eigenvectors out of the lda and they form filters out of it . right ? and those filters have different , uh , kinds of temporal extents and temporal characteristics . and so in fact they 're multi - scale . but , they 're not sort of systematically multi - scale , like `` let 's start here and go to there , and go to there , and go to there `` , and so forth . it 's more like , you run it on this , you do discriminant analysis , and you find out what 's helpful . grad c: i it 's multi - scale because you use several of these in parallel , professor b: yeah . they use several of them . grad c: is that right ? of professor b: yeah . grad c: ok . professor b: uh , i mean , you do n't have to but but but , uh , hynek has . um , but it 's also , uh hyn - when hynek 's had people do this kind of lda analysis , they 've done it on frequency direction and they 've done it on the time direction . i think he may have had people sometimes doing it on both simultaneously some two - d and that would be the closest to these gabor function kind of things . uh , but i do n't think they 've done that much of that . and , uh , the other thing that 's interesting the the , uh the feature selection thing , it 's a simple method , but i kinda like it . um , there 's a a old , old method for feature selection . i mean , eh , uh , i remember people referring to it as old when i was playing with it twenty years ago , so i know it 's pretty old , uh , called stepwise linear discriminant analysis in which you which i think it 's used in social sciences a lot . so , you you you you pick the best feature . and then you take y you find the next feature that 's the best in combination with it . and then so on and so on . and what what michael 's describing seems to me much , much better , because the problem with the stepwise discriminant analysis is that you do n't know that you know , if you 've picked the right set of features . just because something 's a good feature does n't mean that you should be adding it . so , um , uh , here at least you 're starting off with all of them , and you 're throwing out useless features . i think that 's that seems , uh that seems like a lot better idea . uh , you 're always looking at things in combination with other features . um , so the only thing is , of course , there 's this this artificial question of of , uh , exactly how you how you a how you assess it and if if your order had been different in throwing them out . i mean , it still is n't necessarily really optimal , but it seems like a pretty good heuristic . so i th i think it 's it 's i think it 's kinda neat stuff . grad e: hmm . professor b: and and and , uh , the thing that i wanted to to add to it also was to have us use this in a multi - stream way . grad e: hmm . professor b: um , so so that , um , when you come up with these different things , and these different functions , you do n't necessarily just put them all into one huge vector , but perhaps you have some of them in one stream and some of them in another stream , and so forth . and , um , um , { comment } um and we 've also talked a little bit about , uh , uh , shihab shamma 's stuff , in which you the way you look at it is that there 's these different mappings and some of them emphasize , uh , upward moving , uh , energy and fre and frequency . and some are emphasizing downward and fast things and slow things and and so forth . so . so there 's a bunch of stuff to look at . but , uh , i think we 're sorta gon na start off with what he , uh , came here with and branch out branch out from there . and his advisor is here , too , at the same time . so , he 'll be another interesting source of wisdom . grad e: hmm . professor b: so . grad e: as as we were talking about this i was thinking , um , whether there 's a relationship between um , between michael 's approach to , uh , some some sort of optimal brain damage or optimal brain surgeon on the neural nets . professor b: yeah . grad c: hmm . grad e: so , like , if we have , um we have our we have our rasta features and and presumably the neural nets are are learning some sort of a nonlinear mapping , uh , from the the the features to to this this probability posterior space . professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: right ? and , um and each of the hidden units is learning some sort of some sort of some sort of pattern . right ? and it could be , like like these , um these auditory patterns that michael is looking at . and then when you 're looking at the the , uh , um , the best features , you know , you can take out you can do the do this , uh , brain surgery by taking out , um , hidden units that do n't really help at all . professor b: mm - hmm . or the or features . grad e: and this is k sorta like professor b: right ? grad e: yeah . professor b: i mean , y actually , you make me think a a very important point here is that , um , if we a again try to look at how is this different from what we 're already doing , uh , there 's a a , uh a nasty argument that could be made th that it 's it 's not different at at all , because , uh if you ignore the the selection part because we are going into a a very powerful , uh , nonlinearity that , uh , in fact is combining over time and frequency , and is coming up with its own you know , better than gabor functions its , you know , neural net functions , grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: its { comment } whatever it finds to be best . grad c: professor b: um , so you could argue that in fact it but i i do n't actually believe that argument because i know that , um , you can , uh computing features is useful , even though in principle you have n't added anything in fact , you subtracted something , from the original waveform you know , uh , if you 've you 've processed it in some way you 've typically lost something some information . and so , you 've lost information and yet it does better with with features than it does with the waveform . so , uh , i i know that i sometimes it 's useful to to constrain things . so that 's why it really seems like the constraint in in all this stuff it 's the constraints that are actually what matters . because if it was n't the constraints that mattered , then we would 've completely solved this problem long ago , because long ago we already knew how to put waveforms into powerful statistical mechanisms . so . phd d: yeah . well , if we had infinite processing power and data , { comment } i guess , using the waveform could grad e: right . professor b: yeah uh , then it would work . yeah , i agree . yeah . there 's the problem . phd d: so , that 's professor b: yeah . then it would work . but but , i mean , i it 's with finite of those things i mean , uh , we we have done experiments where we literally have put waveforms in and and and , uh , phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: we kept the number of parameters the same and so forth , and it used a lot of training data . and it and it it , uh not infinite but a lot , and then compared to the number parameters and it it , uh it just does n't do nearly as well . so , anyway the point is that you want to suppress phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: it 's not just having the maximum information , you want to suppress , uh , the aspects of the input signal that are not helpful for for the discrimination you 're trying to make . so . so maybe just briefly , uh grad e: well , that sort of segues into what what i 'm doing . professor b: yeah . grad e: um , so , uh , the big picture is k um , come up with a set of , uh , intermediate categories , then build intermediate category classifiers , then do recognition , and , um , improve speech recognition in that way . um , so right now i 'm in in the phase where i 'm looking at at , um , deciding on a initial set of intermediate categories . and i 'm looking for data data - driven methods that can help me find , um , a set of intermediate categories of speech that , uh , will help me to discriminate later down the line . and one of the ideas , um , that was to take a take a neural net train train an ordinary neural net to uh , to learn the posterior probabilities of phones . and so , um , at the end of the day you have this neural net and it has hidden hidden units . and each of these hidden units is um , is learning some sort of pattern . and so , um , what what are these patterns ? phd a: hmm . grad e: i do n't know . um , and i 'm gon na to try to to look at those patterns to to see , um , from those patterns uh , presumably those are important patterns for discriminating between phone classes . and maybe maybe some , uh , intermediate categories can come from just looking at the patterns of um , that the neural net learns . professor b: be - before you get on the next part l let me just point out that s there 's there 's a a pretty nice { comment } relationship between what you 're talking about doing and what you 're talking about doing there . right ? grad e: yeah . professor b: so , it seems to me that , you know , if you take away the the the difference of this primary features , and , say , you use as we had talked about maybe doing you use p - rasta - plp or something for the the primary features , um , then this feature discovery , uh , uh , thing is just what he 's talking about doing , too , except that he 's talking about doing them in order to discover intermediate categories that correspond to these uh , uh , what these sub - features are are are are showing you . and , um , the other difference is that , um , he 's doing this in a in a multi - band setting , which means that he 's constraining himself to look across time in some f relatively limited , uh , uh , spectral extent . right ? and whereas in in this case you 're saying `` let 's just do it unconstrained `` . so they 're they 're really pretty related and maybe they 'll be at some point where we 'll see the the connections a little better and connect them . grad c: hmm . grad e: mm - hmm . um . yeah , so so that 's the that 's the first part uh , one one of the ideas to get at some some patterns of intermediate categories . um , the other one was , um , to , uh , come up with a a a model { comment } um , a graphical model , that treats the intermediate categories as hidden hidden variables , latent variables , that we do n't know anything about , but that through , um , s statistical training and the em algorithm , um , at the end of the day , we have , um we have learned something about these these latent , um latent variables which happen to correspond to intermediate categories . um . yeah , and so those are the the two directions that i 'm i 'm looking into right now . and , uh , um yeah . i guess that 's that 's it . professor b: ok . should we do our digits and get ou get our treats ? grad e: oh , tea time ? professor b: yeah . it 's kind of like , you know , the little rats with the little thing dropping down to them . phd a: that 's ri professor b: we do the digits and then we get our treats . grad e: oops . phd a: ok .

guenter from germany expressed that cvs would not work for him . he was going to work on histogram equalization . histogram equalization was mentioned in a recent paper published by ney . the team discussed the paper and its implications .

what did phd d think about the paper ? </s> phd a: eh , we should be going . professor b: so ne next week we 'll have , uh , both birger and , uh , mike michael michael kleinschmidt and birger kollmeier will join us . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: um , and you 're you 're probably gon na go up in a couple three weeks or so ? when d when are you thinking of going up to , uh , ogi ? phd d: yeah , like , uh , not next week but maybe the week after . professor b: ok . good . so at least we 'll have one meeting with yo with you still around , and and phd d: uh - huh . professor b: that 's good . phd d: um , yeah . well , maybe we can start with this . mmm . professor b: all today , huh ? phd d: yeah . professor b: oh . phd d: um . yeah . so there was this conference call this morning , um , and the only topic on the agenda was just to discuss a and to come at uh , to get a decision about this latency problem . professor b: no , this i 'm sorry , this is a conference call between different aurora people or just ? phd d: uh , yeah . it 's the conference call between the aurora , uh , group . professor b: it 's the main conference call . ok . phd d: uh , yeah . there were like two hours of discussions , and then suddenly , uh , people were tired , i guess , and they decided on a number , two hundred and twenty , um , included e including everything . uh , it means that it 's like eighty milliseconds less than before . professor b: and what are we sitting at currently ? phd d: um . professor b: yeah . phd d: so , currently d uh , we have system that has two hundred and thirty . so , that 's fine . professor b: two thirty . phd d: yeah . so that 's the system that 's described on the second point of this document . professor b: so it 's we have to reduce it by ten milliseconds somehow . phd d: yeah . but that 's yeah . that 's not a problem , i i guess . professor b: ok . w it 's it 's p d primary primarily determined by the vad at this point , phd d: um . professor b: right ? phd d: yeah . professor b: s so we can make the vad a little shorter . phd d: yeah . at this point , yeah . professor b: that 's phd d: yeah , uh - huh . professor b: yeah . we probably should do that pretty soon so that we do n't get used to it being a certain way . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: yeah . phd d: um . professor b: was hari on the on the phone ? phd d: yeah , sure . professor b: ok . phd d: well , it was mainly a discussion between hari and david , professor b: hmm . phd d: who was like professor b: yeah . phd d: uh , professor b: ok . phd d: mmm uh , yeah . so , the second thing is the system that we have currently . oh , yes . we have , like , a system that gives sixty - two percent improvement , but if you want to stick to the this latency well , it has a latency of two thirty , but if you want also to stick to the number of features that limit it to sixty , then we go a little bit down but it 's still sixty - one percent . uh , and if we drop the tandem network , then we have fifty - seven percent . professor b: uh , but th the two th two thirty includes the tandem network ? phd d: yeah . professor b: ok . and i is the tandem network , uh , small enough that it will fit on the terminal size in terms of ? phd d: uh , no , i do n't think so . professor b: no . phd d: no . professor b: ok . phd d: it 's still in terms of computation , if we use , like , their way of computing the the maps the the mips , i think it fits , professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: but it 's , uh , m mainly a problem of memory . professor b: right . phd d: um , and i do n't know how much this can be discussed or not , because it 's it could be in rom , so it 's maybe not that expensive . but professor b: ho - how much memory d ? h how many ? phd d: i d i d uh , i i do n't kn remember exactly , but uh . yeah , i c i i have to check that . professor b: yeah . i 'd like to see that , cuz maybe i could think a little bit about it , cuz we maybe we could make it a little smaller or i mean , it 'd be it 'd be neat if we could fit it all . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: uh , i 'd like to see how far off we are . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: but i guess it 's still within their rules to have have it on the , uh , t uh , server side . right ? phd d: yeah . yeah . professor b: ok . phd d: mmm . professor b: and this is still ? uh , well , y you 're saying here . i c i should just let you go on . phd d: yeah , there were small tricks to make this tandem network work . uh , mmm , and one of the trick was to , um , use some kind of hierarchical structure where the silence probability is not computed by the final tandem network but by the vad network . um , so apparently it looks better when , uh , we use the silence probability from the vad network professor b: huh . phd d: and we re - scale the other probabilities by one minus the silence probability . um . so it 's some kind of hierarchical thing , uh , that sunil also tried , um , on spine and apparently it helps a little bit also . mmm . and . yeah , the reason w why why we did that with the silence probability was that , um professor b: could ? uh , uh , i 'm i 'm really sorry . can you repeat what you were saying about the silence probability ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: i only my mind was some phd d: yeah . so there is the tandem network that e e e estimates the phone probabilities professor b: yeah . yeah . phd d: and the silence probabilities also . professor b: right . phd d: and things get better when , instead of using the silence probability computed by the tandem network , we use the silence probability , uh , given by the vad network , professor b: oh . phd d: um , professor b: the vad network is ? phd d: which is smaller , but maybe , um so we have a network for the vad which has one hundred hidden units , and the tandem network has five hundred . um . so it 's smaller but th the silence probability from this network seems , uh , better . professor b: ok . phd d: mmm . uh . well , it looks strange , but professor b: yeah . but phd d: but it professor b: ok . phd d: maybe it 's has something to do to the fact that we do n't have infinite training data and professor b: we do n't ? phd d: well ! and so well , things are not optimal professor b: yeah . phd d: and mmm grad e: are you you were going to say why what made you wh what led you to do that . phd d: yeah . uh , there was a p { comment } problem that we observed , um , that there was there were , like , many insertions in the in the system . professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: mmm . professor b: hmm . phd d: actually plugging in the tandem network was increasing , i i i think , the number of insertions . professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: and , um so it looked strange and then just using the the other silence probability helps . mmm . um yeah . the next thing we will do is train this tandem on more data . professor b: so , you know , in a way what it might i it 's it 's a little bit like combining knowledge sources . phd d: um professor b: right ? because the fact that you have these two nets that are different sizes means they behave a little differently , phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: they find different things . and , um , if you have , um f the distribution that you have from , uh , f speech sounds is w { comment } sort of one source of knowledge . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: and this is and rather than just taking one minus that to get the other , which is essentially what 's happening , you have this other source of knowledge that you 're putting in there . so you make use of both of them in in what you 're ending up with . maybe it 's better . phd d: yeah . professor b: anyway , you can probably justify anything if what 's use phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd d: and and the features are different also . i mean , the vad does n't use the same features there are . professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: hmm . professor b: oh ! phd d: um professor b: that might be the key , actually . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: cuz you were really thinking about speech versus nonspeech for that . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: that 's a good point . phd d: mmm . uh . well , there are other things that we should do but , um , it requires time and we have ideas , like so , these things are like hav having a better vad . uh , we have some ideas about that . it would probably implies working a little bit on features that are more suited to a voice activity detection . professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: working on the second stream . of course we have ideas on this also , but w we need to try different things and uh , but their noise estimation , um uh professor b: i mean , back on the second stream , i mean , that 's something we 've talked about for a while . i mean , i think that 's certainly a high hope . phd d: yeah . mmm . professor b: um , so we have this this default idea about just using some sort of purely spectral thing ? phd d: uh , yeah . professor b: for a second stream ? phd d: but , um , we we did a first try with this , and it it clearly hurts . professor b: but , uh , how was the stream combined ? phd d: uh . it was c it was just combined , um , by the acoustic model . so there was , no neural network for the moment . professor b: right . so , i mean , if you just had a second stream that was just spectral and had another neural net and combined there , that that , uh , might be good . phd d: mm - hmm . yeah . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mmm . yeah . um yeah , and the other thing , that noise estimation and th um , maybe try to train uh , the training data for the t tandem network , right now , is like i is using the noises from the aurora task and i think that people might , um , try to argue about that because then in some cases we have the same noises in for training the network than the noises that are used for testing , professor b: right . phd d: and so we have t n uh , to try to get rid of these this problem . professor b: yeah . maybe you just put in some other noise , something that 's different . phd d: mm - hmm . yeah . professor b: i mean , it it 's probably helpful to have have a little noise there . but it may be something else phd d: uh - huh . professor b: th at least you could say it was . phd d: yeah . professor b: and then if it does n't hurt too much , though . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: yeah . that 's a good idea . phd d: um . yeah . the last thing is that i think we are getting close to human performance . well , that 's something i would like to investigate further , but , um , i did , like , um i did , uh , listen to the m most noisy utterances of the speechdat - car italian and tried to transcribe them . and , um professor b: so this is a particular human . this is this i this is stephane . phd d: yeah . so that 's that 's grad e: st - stephane . professor b: yeah . phd d: that 's the the flaw of the experiment . this is just i j { comment } it 's just one subject , professor b: yeah . grad e: getting close . phd d: but but still , uh , what happens is is that , uh , the digit error rate on this is around one percent , professor b: yeah . phd d: while our system is currently at seven percent . um , but what happens also is that if i listen to the , um a re - synthesized version of the speech and i re - synthesized this using a white noise that 's filtered by a lpc , uh , filter professor b: yeah . phd d: um , well , you can argue , that , uh that this is not speech , professor b: yeah . phd d: so the ear is not trained to recognize this . but s actually it sound like whispering , so we are professor b: well , i mean , it 's phd d: eh professor b: there 's two problems there . i mean i mean , so so the first is that by doing lpc - twelve with synthesized speech w like you 're saying , uh , it 's i i you 're you 're adding other degradation . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: right ? so it 's not just the noise but you 're adding in fact some degradation because it 's only an approximation . um , and the second thing is which is m maybe more interesting is that , um , { comment } if you do it with whispered speech , you get this number . what if you had done analysis { comment } re - synthesis and taken the pitch as well ? alright ? so now you put the pitch in . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: what would the percentage be then ? phd d: um professor b: see , that 's the question . so , you see , if it 's if it 's if it 's , uh let 's say it 's back down to one percent again . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: that would say at least for people , having the pitch is really , really important , which would be interesting in itself . um , phd d: uh , yeah . but professor b: if i on the other hand , if it stayed up near five percent , then i 'd say `` boy , lpc n twelve is pretty crummy `` . you know ? phd d: uh - huh . professor b: so i i i 'm not sure i 'm not sure how we can conclude from this anything about that our system is close to the human performance . phd d: ye yeah . well , the point is that eh l ey the point is that , um , what i what i listened to when i re - synthesized the lp - the lpc - twelve spectrum is in a way what the system , uh , is hearing , cuz @ @ all the all the , um , excitation all the well , the excitation is is not taken into account . that 's what we do with our system . and professor b: well , you 're not doing the lpc phd d: in this case professor b: i mean , so so what if you did a phd d: well , it 's not lpc , sure , professor b: what if you did lpc - twenty ? phd d: but lpc ? professor b: twenty . right ? i mean , th the thing is lpc is not a a really great representation of speech . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: so , all i 'm saying is that you have in addition to the w the , uh , removal of pitch , you also are doing , uh , a particular parameterization , phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: which , um , uh phd d: mmm . professor b: uh , so , let 's see , how would you do ? so , fo phd d: but that 's that 's what we do with our systems . and professor b: no . actually , we d we we do n't , because we do we do , uh , uh , mel filter bank , for instance . right ? phd d: yeah , but is it that is it that different , i mean ? professor b: um , i do n't know what mel , uh , based synthesis would sound like , phd d: i professor b: but certainly the spectra are quite different . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: could n't you t could n't you , um , test the human performance on just the original audio ? phd d: mm - hmm . this is the one percent number . professor b: yeah , it 's one percent . he 's trying to remove the pitch information phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: oh , oh . ok , phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: i see . professor b: and make it closer to what to what we 're seeing as the feature vectors . phd a: ok . so , y uh , your performance was one percent , and then when you re - synthesize with lpc - twelve it went to five . phd d: uh - huh . yeah . phd a: ok . professor b: i mean we were we were j it it it 's a little bit still apples and oranges because we are choosing these features in order to be the best for recognition . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: and , um , i if you listen to them they still might not be very even if you made something closer to what we 're gon na i it might not sound very good . phd d: yeah . professor b: uh , and i the degradation from that might might actually make it even harder , uh , to understand than the lpc - twelve . so all i 'm saying is that the lpc - twelve puts in synthesis puts in some degradation that 's not what we 're used to hearing , phd d: uh - huh . professor b: and is , um it 's not it 's not just a question of how much information is there , as if you will always take maximum advantage of any information that 's presented to you . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: in fact , you hear some things better than others . and so it it is n't phd a: but professor b: but , i agree that it says that , uh , the kind of information that we 're feeding it is probably , um , um , a little bit , um , minimal . there 's definitely some things that we 've thrown away . and that 's why i was saying it might be interesting if you an interesting test of this would be if you if you actually put the pitch back in . so , you just extract it from the actual speech and put it back in , and see does that is that does that make the difference ? if that if that takes it down to one percent again , then you 'd say `` ok , it 's it 's in fact having , um , not just the spectral envelope but also the also the the pitch that , uh , { comment } @ @ { comment } has the information that people can use , anyway . `` phd d: uh - huh . mmm . phd a: but from this it 's pretty safe to say that the system is with either two to seven percent away from the performance of a human . right ? so it 's somewhere in that range . professor b: well , or it 's it 's phd a: two two to six percent . professor b: yeah , so it 's it 's one point four times , uh , to , uh , seven times the error , phd d: to f seven times , yeah . professor b: for stephane . phd d: um . professor b: so , uh uh , but i i do n't know . i do do n't wan na take you away from other things . phd d: but { comment } but professor b: but that 's that 's what that 's the first thing that i would be curious about , is , you know , i i when you we phd d: but the signal itself is like a mix of um , of a a periodic sound and , @ @ { comment } uh , unvoiced sound , and the noise professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: which is mostly , uh , noise . i mean not periodic . so , what what do you mean exactly by putting back the pitch in ? because phd a: in the lpc synthesis ? i think professor b: yeah . you did lpc re - synthesis phd d: i professor b: l pc re - synthesis . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: so , uh and you did it with a noise source , rather than with with a s periodic source . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: right ? so if you actually did real re - synthesis like you do in an lpc synthesizer , where it 's unvoiced you use noise , where it 's voiced you use , uh , periodic pulses . phd d: um . professor b: right ? phd d: yeah , but it 's neither purely voiced or purely unvoiced . esp - especially because there is noise . professor b: well , it might be hard to do it phd d: so professor b: but it but but the thing is that if you um , if you detect that there 's periodic s strong periodic components , then you can use a voiced voice thing . phd d: oh . uh - huh . yeah . professor b: yeah . i mean , it 's probably not worth your time . it 's it 's a side thing and and and there 's a lot to do . phd d: uh - huh , yeah . professor b: but i 'm i 'm just saying , at least as a thought experiment , that 's what i would wan na test . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: uh , i wan would wan na drive it with a a a two - source system rather than a than a one - source system . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: and then that would tell you whether in fact it 's cuz we 've talked about , like , this harmonic tunneling or other things that people have done based on pitch , maybe that 's really a key element . maybe maybe , uh , uh , without that , it 's it 's not possible to do a whole lot better than we 're doing . that that could be . phd d: yeah . that 's what i was thinking by doing this es experiment , professor b: yeah . phd d: like mmm . evi professor b: but , i mean , other than that , i do n't think it 's i mean , other than the pitch de information , it 's hard to imagine that there 's a whole lot more in the signal that that , uh that we 're throwing away that 's important . phd d: yeah , but yeah . mm - hmm . yeah , right . professor b: right ? i mean , we 're using a fair number of filters in the filter bank and uh phd d: mm - hmm . uh , yeah . professor b: hmm . yeah . phd d: um . professor b: yeah . that look phd d: yeah , that 's it . professor b: yeah . that 's that 's i mean , one one percent is sort of what i would i would figure . if somebody was paying really close attention , you might get i would actually think that if , you looked at people on various times of the day and different amounts of attention , you might actually get up to three or four percent error on digits . uh , uh phd d: mm - hmm . um . professor b: so it 's you know , we 're not we 're not incredibly far off . on the other hand , with any of these numbers except maybe the one percent , it 's st it 's not actually usable in a commercial system with a full telephone number or something . phd d: uh - huh . yeah . at these noise levels . professor b: yeah . phd d: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: right . phd d: well , yeah . these numbers , i mean . mmm . professor b: good . um , while we 're still on aurora stuff maybe you can talk a little about the status with the , uh , wall street journal things for it . phd a: so i 've , um , downloaded , uh , a couple of things from mississippi state . um , one is their software their , uh , lvcsr system . downloaded the latest version of that . got it compiled and everything . um , downloaded the scripts . they wrote some scripts that sort of make it easy to run the system on the wall street journal , uh , data . um , so i have n't run the scripts yet . uh , i 'm waiting there was one problem with part of it and i wrote a note to joe asking him about it . so i 'm waiting to hear from him . but , um , i did print something out just to give you an idea about where the system is . uh , they on their web site they , uh , did this little table of where their system performs relative to other systems that have done this this task . and , um , the mississippi state system using a bigram grammar , uh , is at about eight point two percent . other comparable systems from , uh were getting from , uh , like six point nine , six point eight percent . so they 're professor b: this is on clean test set ? phd a: this is on clean on clean stuff . yeah . they they 've started a table where they 're showing their results on various different noise conditions but they they do n't have a whole lot of it filled in and and i did n't notice until after i 'd printed it out that , um , they do n't say here what these different testing conditions are . professor b: phd a: you actually have to click on it on the web site to see them . so i i do n't know what those numbers really mean . professor b: what kind of numbers are they getting on these on the test conditions ? phd a: well , see , i was a little confused because on this table , i 'm the they 're showing word error rate . but on this one , i i do n't know if these are word error rates because they 're really big . so , under condition one here it 's ten percent . then under three it goes to sixty - four point six percent . professor b: yeah , that 's probably aurora . phd a: yeah . professor b: i mean phd a: so m i guess maybe they 're error rates but they 're , uh they 're really high . professor b: i i i do n't find that surpri phd a: so professor b: i mean , we w what 's what 's some of the lower error rates on on on uh , some of the higher error rates on , uh , some of these w uh , uh , highly mismatched difficult conditions ? what 's a ? phd d: uh . yeah , it 's around fifteen to twenty percent . phd a: correct ? phd d: and the baseline , eh phd a: accuracy ? phd d: uh , error rate . professor b: yeah . phd d: twenty percent error rate , professor b: yeah . so twenty percent error rate on digits . phd d: and phd a: oh , oh , on digits . professor b: so if you 're doing so if you 're doing , phd d: and phd a: yeah . phd d: on digits . phd a: ok . professor b: you know , phd d: and this is so so still the baseline . professor b: sixty - thousand phd d: right ? phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah , and if you 're saying sixty - thousand word recognition , getting sixty percent error on some of these noise condition not at all surprising . phd a: yeah . phd d: the baseline is sixty percent also on digits , phd a: oh , is it ? phd d: on the m more mismatched conditions . phd a: ok . professor b: yeah . phd d: so . phd a: so , yeah , that 's probably what it is then . yeah . so they have a lot of different conditions that they 're gon na be filling out . professor b: it 's a bad sign when you looking at the numbers , you ca n't tell whether it 's accuracy or error rate . phd a: yeah . yeah . it 's it 's gon na be hard . um , they 're i i 'm still waiting for them to release the , um , multi - cpu version of their scripts , cuz right now their script only handles processing on a single cpu , which will take a really long time to run . so . but their s professor b: this is for the training ? phd a: uh i beli yes , for the training also . and , um , they 're supposed to be coming out with it any time , professor b: ok . phd a: the multi - cpu one . so , as soon as they get that , then i 'll i 'll grab those too professor b: ok . phd a: and so w professor b: yeah . cuz we have to get started , phd a: yeah . professor b: cuz it 's cuz , uh , phd a: yeah . i 'll go ahead and try to run it though with just the single cpu one , professor b: if the phd a: and i they they , um , released like a smaller data set that you can use that only takes like sixteen hours to train and stuff . so i can i can run it on that just to make sure that the the thing works and everything . professor b: oh ! good . yeah . cuz we 'll grad e: hmm . professor b: i guess the actual evaluation will be in six weeks or something . so . is that about right you think ? phd d: uh , we do n't know yet , i i think . professor b: really , we do n't know ? phd d: uh - huh . um . phd a: it was n't on the conference call this morning ? professor b: hmm . phd d: no . phd a: hmm . did they say anything on the conference call about , um , how the wall street journal part of the test was going to be run ? because i i thought i remembered hearing that some sites were saying that they did n't have the compute to be able to run the wall street journal stuff at their place , phd d: no . mmm . phd a: so there was some talk about having mississippi state run the systems for them . and i did did that come up at all ? phd d: uh , no . well , this first , this was not the point at all of this the meeting today phd a: oh , ok . phd d: and , professor b: some phd d: uh , frankly , i do n't know because i d { comment } did n't read also the most recent mails about the large - vocabulary task . but , uh , did you do you still , uh , get the mails ? you 're not on the mailing list or what ? phd a: hmm - mm . the only , um , mail i get is from mississippi state phd d: uh - huh . phd a: so phd d: oh , yeah . so we should have a look at this . phd a: about their system . i i do n't get any mail about professor b: i have to say , there 's uh something funny - sounding about saying that one of these big companies does n't have enough cup compute power do that , so they 're having to have it done by mississippi state . phd a: yeah . professor b: it just just sounds funny . phd a: yeah . it does . professor b: but , phd a: yeah . i 'm i 'm wondering about that professor b: anyway . phd a: because there 's this whole issue about , you know , simple tuning parameters , like word insertion penalties . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: and whether or not those are going to be tuned or not , and { comment } so . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: i mean , it makes a big difference . if you change your front - end , you know , the scale is completely can be completely different , so . it seems reasonable that that at least should be tweaked to match the front - end . but phd d: you did n't get any answer from joe ? phd a: i did , but joe said , you know , `` what you 're saying makes sense phd d: uh - huh . phd a: and i do n't know `` . so he does n't know what the answer is . phd d: uh - huh . phd a: i mean , that 's th we had this back and forth a little bit about , you know , are sites gon na are you gon na run this data for different sites ? and , well , if if mississippi state runs it , then maybe they 'll do a little optimization on that parameter , and , uh but then he was n't asked to run it for anybody . so i it 's it 's just not clear yet what 's gon na happen . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: uh , he 's been putting this stuff out on their web site and for people to grab but i have n't heard too much about what 's happening . professor b: so it could be i mean , chuck and i had actually talked about this a couple times , and and over some lunches , i think , that , um , one thing that we might wan na do the - there 's this question about , you know , what do you wan na scale ? suppose y you ca n't adjust these word insertion penalties and so forth , so you have to do everything at the level of the features . what could you do ? and , uh , one thing i had suggested at an earlier time was maybe some sort of scaling , some sort of root or or something of the , um , uh , features . but the problem with that is that is n't quite the same , it occurred to me later , because what you really want to do is scale the , uh , @ @ { comment } the range of the likelihoods rather than phd d: nnn , the dist yeah . professor b: but , what might get at something similar , it just occurred to me , is kind of an intermediate thing is because we do this strange thing that we do with the tandem system , at least in that system what you could do is take the , um , uh , values that come out of the net , which are something like log probabilities , and scale those . and then , uh , um then at least those things would have the right values or the right the right range . and then that goes into the rest of it and then that 's used as observations . so it 's it 's , um , another way to do it . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . but , these values are not directly used as probabilities anyway . professor b: i know they 're not . phd d: so there are there is professor b: i know they 're not . but but , you know so because what we 're doing is pretty strange and complicated , we do n't really know what the effect is at the other end . phd d: uh - huh . mm - hmm . professor b: so , um , my thought was maybe i mean , they 're not used as probabilities , but the log probabilities we 're taking advantage of the fact that something like log probabilities has more of a gaussian shape than gaus - than probabilities , and so we can model them better . so , in a way we 're taking advantage of the fact that they 're probabilities , because they 're this quantity that looks kind of gaussian when you take it 's log . so , { comment } uh , maybe maybe it would have a a reasonable effect to do that . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: i d i do n't know . but , i mean , i guess we still have n't had a a ruling back on this . and we may end up being in a situation where we just you know really ca n't change the word insertion penalty . but the other thing we could do is also we could i mean , this this may not help us , uh , in the evaluation but it might help us in our understanding at least . we might , just run it with different insper insertion penalties , and show that , uh , `` well , ok , not changing it , playing the rules the way you wanted , we did this . but in fact if we did that , it made a a big difference . `` phd a: i wonder if it it might be possible to , uh , simulate the back - end with some other system . so we we get our f front - end features , and then , uh , as part of the process of figuring out the scaling of these features , { comment } you know , if we 're gon na take it to a root or to a power or something , { comment } we have some back - end that we attach onto our features that sort of simulates what would be happening . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: um , professor b: and just adjust it until it 's the best number ? phd a: and just adjust it until that our l version of the back - end , uh , decides that that professor b: well , we can probably use the real thing , ca n't we ? and then jus just , uh , use it on a reduced test set or something . phd a: yeah . oh , yeah . that 's true . professor b: yeah . phd a: and then we just use that to determine some scaling factor that we use . professor b: yeah . so i mean , i i think that that 's a reasonable thing to do and the only question is what 's the actual knob that we use ? phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and the knob that we use should uh , uh , unfortunately , like i say , i do n't know the analytic solution to this cuz what we really want to do is change the scale of the likelihoods , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: not the cha not the scale of the the observations . but but , uh phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . grad e: out of curiosity , what what kind of recognizer is the one from mississippi state ? phd a: uh , w what do you mean when you say `` what kind `` ? grad e: is it ? um , is it like a gaussian mixture model ? phd a: yeah . gaussian mixture model . grad e: ok . phd a: it 's the same system that they use when they participate in the hub - five evals . it 's a , um sort of came out of , uh uh , looking a lot like htk . i mean , they started off with um , when they were building their system they were always comparing to htk to make sure they were getting similar results . and so , it 's a gaussian mixture system , uh professor b: do they have the same sort of mix - down sort of procedure , where they start off with a small number of some things phd a: i do n't know . yeah . and then divide the mixtures in half . professor b: and ? yeah . phd a: i do n't know if they do that . i 'm not really sure . professor b: yeah . grad e: hmm . professor b: d do you know what kind of tying they use ? are they they sort of some sort of a bunch of gaussians that they share across everything ? or or if it 's ? phd a: yeah , th i have i i i do n't have it up here but i have a the whole system description , that describes exactly what their system is professor b: ok . phd a: and i i 'm not sure . but , um professor b: ok . phd a: it 's some kind of a mixture of gaussians and , uh , clustering and , uh they 're they 're trying to put in sort of all of the standard features that people use nowadays . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: so the other , uh , aurora thing maybe is i i dunno if any of this is gon na come in in time to be relevant , but , uh , we had talked about , uh , { comment } guenter playing around , uh , uh , over in germany phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: and and , @ @ { comment } uh , possibly coming up with something that would , uh , uh , fit in later . uh , i saw that other mail where he said that he uh , it was n't going to work for him to do cvs . phd d: yeah . yeah . so now he has a version of the software . professor b: so he just has it all sitting there . yeah . phd d: yeah . um mm - hmm . professor b: so if he 'll he might work on improving the noise estimate or on some histogram things , or phd d: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . i just saw the eurospeech we we did n't talk about it at our meeting but i just saw the just read the paper . someone , i forget the name , { comment } and and ney , uh , about histogram equalization ? did you see that one ? phd d: um , it was a poster . or professor b: yeah . i mean , i just read the paper . phd d: yeah . professor b: i did n't see the poster . phd d: yeah . um it was something similar to n on - line normalization finally i mean , in the idea of of normalizing professor b: yeah . but it 's a little more it it 's a little finer , right ? so they had like ten quantiles phd d: yeah . professor b: and and they adjust the distribution . phd d: right . professor b: so you you have the distributions from the training set , phd d: n professor b: and then , uh so this is just a a histogram of of the amplitudes , i guess . right ? and then um , people do this in image processing some . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: you have this kind of of histogram of of levels of brightness or whatever . and and and then , when you get a new new thing that you you want to adjust to be better in some way , you adjust it so that the histogram of the new data looks like the old data . phd a: hmm . professor b: you do this kind of piece - wise linear or , uh , some kind of piece - wise approximation . they did a uh one version that was piece - wise linear and another that had a power law thing between them between the points . and , uh , they said they s they sort of see it in a way as s for the speech case { comment } as being kind of a generalization of spectral subtraction in a way , because , you know , in spectral subtraction you 're trying to get rid of this excess energy . uh , you know , it 's not supposed to be there . uh and , uh , this is sort of adjusting it for for a lot of different levels . and then they have s they have some kind of , uh , a floor or something , grad e: hmm . professor b: so if it gets too low you do n't do n't do it . phd a: hmm . professor b: and they they claimed very nice results , phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: so is this a histogram across different frequency bins ? professor b: and phd a: or ? professor b: um , i think this i you know , i do n't remember that . do you remember ? phd d: i think they have , yeah , different histograms . i uh something like one per frequency band , professor b: one phd a: so , one histogram per frequency bin . professor b: one per critical phd d: or but i did yeah , i guess . phd a: and that 's phd d: but i should read the paper . i just went through the poster quickly , professor b: yeah . phd a: so th professor b: and i do n't remember whether it was filter bank things phd a: oh . phd d: and i did n't professor b: or whether it was fft bins phd a: huh . professor b: or phd a: and and that that , um , histogram represents the different energy levels that have been seen at that frequency ? professor b: i do n't remember that . and how often they you 've seen them . yeah . phd a: uh - huh . grad e: hmm . professor b: yeah . and they do they said that they could do it for the test so you do n't have to change the training . you just do a measurement over the training . and then , uh , for testing , uh , you can do it for one per utterance . even relatively short utterances . and they claim it it works pretty well . phd a: so they , uh is the idea that you you run a test utterance through some histogram generation thing and then you compare the histograms and that tells you what to do to the utterance to make it more like ? professor b: i guess in pri yeah . in principle . phd a: i see . professor b: i did n't read carefully how they actually implemented it , phd a: hmm . yeah . professor b: whether it was some , uh , on - line thing , or whether it was a second pass , or what . but but they that that was sort of the idea . phd a: hmm . professor b: so that that seemed , you know , different . we 're sort of curious about , uh , what are some things that are , u u um , @ @ { comment } conceptually quite different from what we 've done . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: cuz we you know , one thing that w that , uh , stephane and sunil seemed to find , uh , was , you know , they could actually make a unified piece of software that handled a range of different things that people were talking about , and it was really just sort of setting of different constants . and it would turn , you know , one thing into another . it 'd turn wiener filtering into spectral subtraction , or whatever . but there 's other things that we 're not doing . so , we 're not making any use of pitch , uh , uh , which again , might might be important , uh , because the stuff between the harmonics is probably a schmutz . and and the , uh , transcribers will have fun with that . uh and , um , the , uh , stuff at the harmonics is n't so much . and and , uh and we there 's this overall idea of really sort of matching the the hi distributions somehow . uh , not just , um , um not just subtracting off your estimate of the noise . so . so i guess , uh , guenter 's gon na play around with some of these things now over this next period , phd d: uh , i dunno . professor b: or ? phd d: i do n't have feedback from him , but professor b: yeah . phd d: i guess he 's gon na , maybe professor b: well , he 's got it anyway , so he can . phd d: yeah . professor b: so potentially if he came up with something that was useful , like a diff a better noise estimation module or something , he could ship it to you guys u up there phd d: uh - huh . professor b: and phd d: yeah . professor b: we could put it in . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . yeah . so , that 's good . so , why do n't we just , uh , um i think starting starting a w couple weeks from now , especially if you 're not gon na be around for a while , we 'll we 'll be shifting more over to some other other territory . but , uh , uh , { comment } uh , n not not so much in this meeting about aurora , but but , uh , uh , maybe just , uh , quickly today about maybe you could just say a little bit about what you 've been talking about with michael . and and then barry can say something about what { comment } what we 're talking about . grad c: ok . so michael kleinschmidt , who 's a phd student from germany , showed up this week . he 'll be here for about six months . and he 's done some work using an auditory model of , um , human hearing , and using that f uh , to generate speech recognition features . and he did work back in germany with , um , a toy recognition system using , um , isolated digit recognition as the task . it was actually just a single - layer neural network that classified words classified digits , in fact . um , and he tried that on i think on some aurora data and got results that he thought seemed respectable . and he w he 's coming here to u u use it on a uh , a real speech recognition system . so i 'll be working with him on that . and , um , maybe i should say a little more about these features , although i do n't understand them that well . the i think it 's a two - stage idea . and , um , the first stage of these features correspond to what 's called the peripheral auditory system . and i guess that is like a filter bank with a compressive nonlinearity . and i 'm - i 'm not sure what we have @ @ in there that is n't already modeled in something like , um , plp . i should learn more about that . and then the second stage is , um , the most different thing , i think , from what we usually do . it 's , um it computes features which are , um , based on sort of like based on diffe different w um , wavelet basis functions used to analyze the input . so th he uses analysis functions called gabor functions , um , which have a certain extent , um , in time and in frequency . and the idea is these are used to sample , um , the signal in a represented as a time - frequency representation . so you 're sampling some piece of this time - frequency plane . and , um , that , um , is is interesting , cuz , @ @ for for one thing , you could use it , um , in a a multi - scale way . you could have these instead of having everything like we use a twenty - five millisecond or so analysis window , typically , um , and that 's our time scale for features , but you could using this , um , basis function idea , you could have some basis functions which have a lot longer time scale and , um , some which have a lot shorter , and so it would be like a set of multi - scale features . so he 's interested in , um th - this is because it 's , um there are these different parameters for the shape of these basis functions , um there are a lot of different possible basis functions . and so he he actually does an optimization procedure to choose an an optimal set of basis functions out of all the possible ones . phd a: hmm . h what does he do to choose those ? grad c: the method he uses is kind of funny is , { comment } um , he starts with he has a set of m of them . um , he and then he uses that to classify i mean , he t he tries , um , using just m minus one of them . so there are m possible subsets of this length - m vector . he tries classifying , using each of the m possible sub - vectors . phd d: hmm . grad c: whichever sub - vector , um , works the the best , i guess , he says the the fe feature that did n't use was the most useless feature , professor b: y yeah . gets thrown out . yeah . grad c: so we 'll throw it out and we 're gon na randomly select another feature from the set of possible basis functions . phd a: hmm ! professor b: yeah . phd a: so it 's a professor b: so i so it 's actuall phd a: it 's a little bit like a genetic algorithm or something in a way . professor b: well , it 's it 's much simpler . grad e: it 's like a greedy professor b: but it 's but it 's uh , it 's there 's a lot number of things i like about it , let me just say . phd a: greedy . professor b: so , first thing , well , you 're absolutely right . i mean , i i in truth , both pieces of this are have their analogies in stuff we already do . but it 's a different take at how to approach it and potentially one that 's m maybe a bit more systematic than what we 've done , uh , and a b a bit more inspiration from from auditory things . so it 's so i think it 's a neat thing to try . the primary features , um , are in fact yeah , essentially , it 's it 's , uh , you know , plp or or mel cepstrum , or something like that . you 've you 've got some , uh , compression . we always have some compression . we always have some you know , the the the kind of filter bank with a kind of quasi - log scaling . um , if you put in if you also include the rasta in it i rasta the filtering being done in the log domain has an agc - like , uh , characteristic , which , you know , people typi typically put in these kind of , uh , um , uh , auditory front - ends . so it 's very , very similar , uh , but it 's not exactly the same . um , i would agree that the second one is is somewhat more different but , um , it 's mainly different in that the things that we have been doing like that have been um , had a different kind of motivation and have ended up with different kinds of constraints . so , for instance , if you look at the lda rasta stuff , you know , basically what they do is they they look at the different eigenvectors out of the lda and they form filters out of it . right ? and those filters have different , uh , kinds of temporal extents and temporal characteristics . and so in fact they 're multi - scale . but , they 're not sort of systematically multi - scale , like `` let 's start here and go to there , and go to there , and go to there `` , and so forth . it 's more like , you run it on this , you do discriminant analysis , and you find out what 's helpful . grad c: i it 's multi - scale because you use several of these in parallel , professor b: yeah . they use several of them . grad c: is that right ? of professor b: yeah . grad c: ok . professor b: uh , i mean , you do n't have to but but but , uh , hynek has . um , but it 's also , uh hyn - when hynek 's had people do this kind of lda analysis , they 've done it on frequency direction and they 've done it on the time direction . i think he may have had people sometimes doing it on both simultaneously some two - d and that would be the closest to these gabor function kind of things . uh , but i do n't think they 've done that much of that . and , uh , the other thing that 's interesting the the , uh the feature selection thing , it 's a simple method , but i kinda like it . um , there 's a a old , old method for feature selection . i mean , eh , uh , i remember people referring to it as old when i was playing with it twenty years ago , so i know it 's pretty old , uh , called stepwise linear discriminant analysis in which you which i think it 's used in social sciences a lot . so , you you you you pick the best feature . and then you take y you find the next feature that 's the best in combination with it . and then so on and so on . and what what michael 's describing seems to me much , much better , because the problem with the stepwise discriminant analysis is that you do n't know that you know , if you 've picked the right set of features . just because something 's a good feature does n't mean that you should be adding it . so , um , uh , here at least you 're starting off with all of them , and you 're throwing out useless features . i think that 's that seems , uh that seems like a lot better idea . uh , you 're always looking at things in combination with other features . um , so the only thing is , of course , there 's this this artificial question of of , uh , exactly how you how you a how you assess it and if if your order had been different in throwing them out . i mean , it still is n't necessarily really optimal , but it seems like a pretty good heuristic . so i th i think it 's it 's i think it 's kinda neat stuff . grad e: hmm . professor b: and and and , uh , the thing that i wanted to to add to it also was to have us use this in a multi - stream way . grad e: hmm . professor b: um , so so that , um , when you come up with these different things , and these different functions , you do n't necessarily just put them all into one huge vector , but perhaps you have some of them in one stream and some of them in another stream , and so forth . and , um , um , { comment } um and we 've also talked a little bit about , uh , uh , shihab shamma 's stuff , in which you the way you look at it is that there 's these different mappings and some of them emphasize , uh , upward moving , uh , energy and fre and frequency . and some are emphasizing downward and fast things and slow things and and so forth . so . so there 's a bunch of stuff to look at . but , uh , i think we 're sorta gon na start off with what he , uh , came here with and branch out branch out from there . and his advisor is here , too , at the same time . so , he 'll be another interesting source of wisdom . grad e: hmm . professor b: so . grad e: as as we were talking about this i was thinking , um , whether there 's a relationship between um , between michael 's approach to , uh , some some sort of optimal brain damage or optimal brain surgeon on the neural nets . professor b: yeah . grad c: hmm . grad e: so , like , if we have , um we have our we have our rasta features and and presumably the neural nets are are learning some sort of a nonlinear mapping , uh , from the the the features to to this this probability posterior space . professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: right ? and , um and each of the hidden units is learning some sort of some sort of some sort of pattern . right ? and it could be , like like these , um these auditory patterns that michael is looking at . and then when you 're looking at the the , uh , um , the best features , you know , you can take out you can do the do this , uh , brain surgery by taking out , um , hidden units that do n't really help at all . professor b: mm - hmm . or the or features . grad e: and this is k sorta like professor b: right ? grad e: yeah . professor b: i mean , y actually , you make me think a a very important point here is that , um , if we a again try to look at how is this different from what we 're already doing , uh , there 's a a , uh a nasty argument that could be made th that it 's it 's not different at at all , because , uh if you ignore the the selection part because we are going into a a very powerful , uh , nonlinearity that , uh , in fact is combining over time and frequency , and is coming up with its own you know , better than gabor functions its , you know , neural net functions , grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: its { comment } whatever it finds to be best . grad c: professor b: um , so you could argue that in fact it but i i do n't actually believe that argument because i know that , um , you can , uh computing features is useful , even though in principle you have n't added anything in fact , you subtracted something , from the original waveform you know , uh , if you 've you 've processed it in some way you 've typically lost something some information . and so , you 've lost information and yet it does better with with features than it does with the waveform . so , uh , i i know that i sometimes it 's useful to to constrain things . so that 's why it really seems like the constraint in in all this stuff it 's the constraints that are actually what matters . because if it was n't the constraints that mattered , then we would 've completely solved this problem long ago , because long ago we already knew how to put waveforms into powerful statistical mechanisms . so . phd d: yeah . well , if we had infinite processing power and data , { comment } i guess , using the waveform could grad e: right . professor b: yeah uh , then it would work . yeah , i agree . yeah . there 's the problem . phd d: so , that 's professor b: yeah . then it would work . but but , i mean , i it 's with finite of those things i mean , uh , we we have done experiments where we literally have put waveforms in and and and , uh , phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: we kept the number of parameters the same and so forth , and it used a lot of training data . and it and it it , uh not infinite but a lot , and then compared to the number parameters and it it , uh it just does n't do nearly as well . so , anyway the point is that you want to suppress phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: it 's not just having the maximum information , you want to suppress , uh , the aspects of the input signal that are not helpful for for the discrimination you 're trying to make . so . so maybe just briefly , uh grad e: well , that sort of segues into what what i 'm doing . professor b: yeah . grad e: um , so , uh , the big picture is k um , come up with a set of , uh , intermediate categories , then build intermediate category classifiers , then do recognition , and , um , improve speech recognition in that way . um , so right now i 'm in in the phase where i 'm looking at at , um , deciding on a initial set of intermediate categories . and i 'm looking for data data - driven methods that can help me find , um , a set of intermediate categories of speech that , uh , will help me to discriminate later down the line . and one of the ideas , um , that was to take a take a neural net train train an ordinary neural net to uh , to learn the posterior probabilities of phones . and so , um , at the end of the day you have this neural net and it has hidden hidden units . and each of these hidden units is um , is learning some sort of pattern . and so , um , what what are these patterns ? phd a: hmm . grad e: i do n't know . um , and i 'm gon na to try to to look at those patterns to to see , um , from those patterns uh , presumably those are important patterns for discriminating between phone classes . and maybe maybe some , uh , intermediate categories can come from just looking at the patterns of um , that the neural net learns . professor b: be - before you get on the next part l let me just point out that s there 's there 's a a pretty nice { comment } relationship between what you 're talking about doing and what you 're talking about doing there . right ? grad e: yeah . professor b: so , it seems to me that , you know , if you take away the the the difference of this primary features , and , say , you use as we had talked about maybe doing you use p - rasta - plp or something for the the primary features , um , then this feature discovery , uh , uh , thing is just what he 's talking about doing , too , except that he 's talking about doing them in order to discover intermediate categories that correspond to these uh , uh , what these sub - features are are are are showing you . and , um , the other difference is that , um , he 's doing this in a in a multi - band setting , which means that he 's constraining himself to look across time in some f relatively limited , uh , uh , spectral extent . right ? and whereas in in this case you 're saying `` let 's just do it unconstrained `` . so they 're they 're really pretty related and maybe they 'll be at some point where we 'll see the the connections a little better and connect them . grad c: hmm . grad e: mm - hmm . um . yeah , so so that 's the that 's the first part uh , one one of the ideas to get at some some patterns of intermediate categories . um , the other one was , um , to , uh , come up with a a a model { comment } um , a graphical model , that treats the intermediate categories as hidden hidden variables , latent variables , that we do n't know anything about , but that through , um , s statistical training and the em algorithm , um , at the end of the day , we have , um we have learned something about these these latent , um latent variables which happen to correspond to intermediate categories . um . yeah , and so those are the the two directions that i 'm i 'm looking into right now . and , uh , um yeah . i guess that 's that 's it . professor b: ok . should we do our digits and get ou get our treats ? grad e: oh , tea time ? professor b: yeah . it 's kind of like , you know , the little rats with the little thing dropping down to them . phd a: that 's ri professor b: we do the digits and then we get our treats . grad e: oops . phd a: ok .

phd d had not read the paper , only the poster on histogram equalization . phd d reported that the histogram equalization was similar to on-line normalization . there was a histogram for each frequency band .

what did phd a think about histogram equalization ? </s> phd a: eh , we should be going . professor b: so ne next week we 'll have , uh , both birger and , uh , mike michael michael kleinschmidt and birger kollmeier will join us . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: um , and you 're you 're probably gon na go up in a couple three weeks or so ? when d when are you thinking of going up to , uh , ogi ? phd d: yeah , like , uh , not next week but maybe the week after . professor b: ok . good . so at least we 'll have one meeting with yo with you still around , and and phd d: uh - huh . professor b: that 's good . phd d: um , yeah . well , maybe we can start with this . mmm . professor b: all today , huh ? phd d: yeah . professor b: oh . phd d: um . yeah . so there was this conference call this morning , um , and the only topic on the agenda was just to discuss a and to come at uh , to get a decision about this latency problem . professor b: no , this i 'm sorry , this is a conference call between different aurora people or just ? phd d: uh , yeah . it 's the conference call between the aurora , uh , group . professor b: it 's the main conference call . ok . phd d: uh , yeah . there were like two hours of discussions , and then suddenly , uh , people were tired , i guess , and they decided on a number , two hundred and twenty , um , included e including everything . uh , it means that it 's like eighty milliseconds less than before . professor b: and what are we sitting at currently ? phd d: um . professor b: yeah . phd d: so , currently d uh , we have system that has two hundred and thirty . so , that 's fine . professor b: two thirty . phd d: yeah . so that 's the system that 's described on the second point of this document . professor b: so it 's we have to reduce it by ten milliseconds somehow . phd d: yeah . but that 's yeah . that 's not a problem , i i guess . professor b: ok . w it 's it 's p d primary primarily determined by the vad at this point , phd d: um . professor b: right ? phd d: yeah . professor b: s so we can make the vad a little shorter . phd d: yeah . at this point , yeah . professor b: that 's phd d: yeah , uh - huh . professor b: yeah . we probably should do that pretty soon so that we do n't get used to it being a certain way . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: yeah . phd d: um . professor b: was hari on the on the phone ? phd d: yeah , sure . professor b: ok . phd d: well , it was mainly a discussion between hari and david , professor b: hmm . phd d: who was like professor b: yeah . phd d: uh , professor b: ok . phd d: mmm uh , yeah . so , the second thing is the system that we have currently . oh , yes . we have , like , a system that gives sixty - two percent improvement , but if you want to stick to the this latency well , it has a latency of two thirty , but if you want also to stick to the number of features that limit it to sixty , then we go a little bit down but it 's still sixty - one percent . uh , and if we drop the tandem network , then we have fifty - seven percent . professor b: uh , but th the two th two thirty includes the tandem network ? phd d: yeah . professor b: ok . and i is the tandem network , uh , small enough that it will fit on the terminal size in terms of ? phd d: uh , no , i do n't think so . professor b: no . phd d: no . professor b: ok . phd d: it 's still in terms of computation , if we use , like , their way of computing the the maps the the mips , i think it fits , professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: but it 's , uh , m mainly a problem of memory . professor b: right . phd d: um , and i do n't know how much this can be discussed or not , because it 's it could be in rom , so it 's maybe not that expensive . but professor b: ho - how much memory d ? h how many ? phd d: i d i d uh , i i do n't kn remember exactly , but uh . yeah , i c i i have to check that . professor b: yeah . i 'd like to see that , cuz maybe i could think a little bit about it , cuz we maybe we could make it a little smaller or i mean , it 'd be it 'd be neat if we could fit it all . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: uh , i 'd like to see how far off we are . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: but i guess it 's still within their rules to have have it on the , uh , t uh , server side . right ? phd d: yeah . yeah . professor b: ok . phd d: mmm . professor b: and this is still ? uh , well , y you 're saying here . i c i should just let you go on . phd d: yeah , there were small tricks to make this tandem network work . uh , mmm , and one of the trick was to , um , use some kind of hierarchical structure where the silence probability is not computed by the final tandem network but by the vad network . um , so apparently it looks better when , uh , we use the silence probability from the vad network professor b: huh . phd d: and we re - scale the other probabilities by one minus the silence probability . um . so it 's some kind of hierarchical thing , uh , that sunil also tried , um , on spine and apparently it helps a little bit also . mmm . and . yeah , the reason w why why we did that with the silence probability was that , um professor b: could ? uh , uh , i 'm i 'm really sorry . can you repeat what you were saying about the silence probability ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: i only my mind was some phd d: yeah . so there is the tandem network that e e e estimates the phone probabilities professor b: yeah . yeah . phd d: and the silence probabilities also . professor b: right . phd d: and things get better when , instead of using the silence probability computed by the tandem network , we use the silence probability , uh , given by the vad network , professor b: oh . phd d: um , professor b: the vad network is ? phd d: which is smaller , but maybe , um so we have a network for the vad which has one hundred hidden units , and the tandem network has five hundred . um . so it 's smaller but th the silence probability from this network seems , uh , better . professor b: ok . phd d: mmm . uh . well , it looks strange , but professor b: yeah . but phd d: but it professor b: ok . phd d: maybe it 's has something to do to the fact that we do n't have infinite training data and professor b: we do n't ? phd d: well ! and so well , things are not optimal professor b: yeah . phd d: and mmm grad e: are you you were going to say why what made you wh what led you to do that . phd d: yeah . uh , there was a p { comment } problem that we observed , um , that there was there were , like , many insertions in the in the system . professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: mmm . professor b: hmm . phd d: actually plugging in the tandem network was increasing , i i i think , the number of insertions . professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: and , um so it looked strange and then just using the the other silence probability helps . mmm . um yeah . the next thing we will do is train this tandem on more data . professor b: so , you know , in a way what it might i it 's it 's a little bit like combining knowledge sources . phd d: um professor b: right ? because the fact that you have these two nets that are different sizes means they behave a little differently , phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: they find different things . and , um , if you have , um f the distribution that you have from , uh , f speech sounds is w { comment } sort of one source of knowledge . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: and this is and rather than just taking one minus that to get the other , which is essentially what 's happening , you have this other source of knowledge that you 're putting in there . so you make use of both of them in in what you 're ending up with . maybe it 's better . phd d: yeah . professor b: anyway , you can probably justify anything if what 's use phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd d: and and the features are different also . i mean , the vad does n't use the same features there are . professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: hmm . professor b: oh ! phd d: um professor b: that might be the key , actually . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: cuz you were really thinking about speech versus nonspeech for that . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: that 's a good point . phd d: mmm . uh . well , there are other things that we should do but , um , it requires time and we have ideas , like so , these things are like hav having a better vad . uh , we have some ideas about that . it would probably implies working a little bit on features that are more suited to a voice activity detection . professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: working on the second stream . of course we have ideas on this also , but w we need to try different things and uh , but their noise estimation , um uh professor b: i mean , back on the second stream , i mean , that 's something we 've talked about for a while . i mean , i think that 's certainly a high hope . phd d: yeah . mmm . professor b: um , so we have this this default idea about just using some sort of purely spectral thing ? phd d: uh , yeah . professor b: for a second stream ? phd d: but , um , we we did a first try with this , and it it clearly hurts . professor b: but , uh , how was the stream combined ? phd d: uh . it was c it was just combined , um , by the acoustic model . so there was , no neural network for the moment . professor b: right . so , i mean , if you just had a second stream that was just spectral and had another neural net and combined there , that that , uh , might be good . phd d: mm - hmm . yeah . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mmm . yeah . um yeah , and the other thing , that noise estimation and th um , maybe try to train uh , the training data for the t tandem network , right now , is like i is using the noises from the aurora task and i think that people might , um , try to argue about that because then in some cases we have the same noises in for training the network than the noises that are used for testing , professor b: right . phd d: and so we have t n uh , to try to get rid of these this problem . professor b: yeah . maybe you just put in some other noise , something that 's different . phd d: mm - hmm . yeah . professor b: i mean , it it 's probably helpful to have have a little noise there . but it may be something else phd d: uh - huh . professor b: th at least you could say it was . phd d: yeah . professor b: and then if it does n't hurt too much , though . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: yeah . that 's a good idea . phd d: um . yeah . the last thing is that i think we are getting close to human performance . well , that 's something i would like to investigate further , but , um , i did , like , um i did , uh , listen to the m most noisy utterances of the speechdat - car italian and tried to transcribe them . and , um professor b: so this is a particular human . this is this i this is stephane . phd d: yeah . so that 's that 's grad e: st - stephane . professor b: yeah . phd d: that 's the the flaw of the experiment . this is just i j { comment } it 's just one subject , professor b: yeah . grad e: getting close . phd d: but but still , uh , what happens is is that , uh , the digit error rate on this is around one percent , professor b: yeah . phd d: while our system is currently at seven percent . um , but what happens also is that if i listen to the , um a re - synthesized version of the speech and i re - synthesized this using a white noise that 's filtered by a lpc , uh , filter professor b: yeah . phd d: um , well , you can argue , that , uh that this is not speech , professor b: yeah . phd d: so the ear is not trained to recognize this . but s actually it sound like whispering , so we are professor b: well , i mean , it 's phd d: eh professor b: there 's two problems there . i mean i mean , so so the first is that by doing lpc - twelve with synthesized speech w like you 're saying , uh , it 's i i you 're you 're adding other degradation . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: right ? so it 's not just the noise but you 're adding in fact some degradation because it 's only an approximation . um , and the second thing is which is m maybe more interesting is that , um , { comment } if you do it with whispered speech , you get this number . what if you had done analysis { comment } re - synthesis and taken the pitch as well ? alright ? so now you put the pitch in . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: what would the percentage be then ? phd d: um professor b: see , that 's the question . so , you see , if it 's if it 's if it 's , uh let 's say it 's back down to one percent again . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: that would say at least for people , having the pitch is really , really important , which would be interesting in itself . um , phd d: uh , yeah . but professor b: if i on the other hand , if it stayed up near five percent , then i 'd say `` boy , lpc n twelve is pretty crummy `` . you know ? phd d: uh - huh . professor b: so i i i 'm not sure i 'm not sure how we can conclude from this anything about that our system is close to the human performance . phd d: ye yeah . well , the point is that eh l ey the point is that , um , what i what i listened to when i re - synthesized the lp - the lpc - twelve spectrum is in a way what the system , uh , is hearing , cuz @ @ all the all the , um , excitation all the well , the excitation is is not taken into account . that 's what we do with our system . and professor b: well , you 're not doing the lpc phd d: in this case professor b: i mean , so so what if you did a phd d: well , it 's not lpc , sure , professor b: what if you did lpc - twenty ? phd d: but lpc ? professor b: twenty . right ? i mean , th the thing is lpc is not a a really great representation of speech . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: so , all i 'm saying is that you have in addition to the w the , uh , removal of pitch , you also are doing , uh , a particular parameterization , phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: which , um , uh phd d: mmm . professor b: uh , so , let 's see , how would you do ? so , fo phd d: but that 's that 's what we do with our systems . and professor b: no . actually , we d we we do n't , because we do we do , uh , uh , mel filter bank , for instance . right ? phd d: yeah , but is it that is it that different , i mean ? professor b: um , i do n't know what mel , uh , based synthesis would sound like , phd d: i professor b: but certainly the spectra are quite different . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: could n't you t could n't you , um , test the human performance on just the original audio ? phd d: mm - hmm . this is the one percent number . professor b: yeah , it 's one percent . he 's trying to remove the pitch information phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: oh , oh . ok , phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: i see . professor b: and make it closer to what to what we 're seeing as the feature vectors . phd a: ok . so , y uh , your performance was one percent , and then when you re - synthesize with lpc - twelve it went to five . phd d: uh - huh . yeah . phd a: ok . professor b: i mean we were we were j it it it 's a little bit still apples and oranges because we are choosing these features in order to be the best for recognition . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: and , um , i if you listen to them they still might not be very even if you made something closer to what we 're gon na i it might not sound very good . phd d: yeah . professor b: uh , and i the degradation from that might might actually make it even harder , uh , to understand than the lpc - twelve . so all i 'm saying is that the lpc - twelve puts in synthesis puts in some degradation that 's not what we 're used to hearing , phd d: uh - huh . professor b: and is , um it 's not it 's not just a question of how much information is there , as if you will always take maximum advantage of any information that 's presented to you . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: in fact , you hear some things better than others . and so it it is n't phd a: but professor b: but , i agree that it says that , uh , the kind of information that we 're feeding it is probably , um , um , a little bit , um , minimal . there 's definitely some things that we 've thrown away . and that 's why i was saying it might be interesting if you an interesting test of this would be if you if you actually put the pitch back in . so , you just extract it from the actual speech and put it back in , and see does that is that does that make the difference ? if that if that takes it down to one percent again , then you 'd say `` ok , it 's it 's in fact having , um , not just the spectral envelope but also the also the the pitch that , uh , { comment } @ @ { comment } has the information that people can use , anyway . `` phd d: uh - huh . mmm . phd a: but from this it 's pretty safe to say that the system is with either two to seven percent away from the performance of a human . right ? so it 's somewhere in that range . professor b: well , or it 's it 's phd a: two two to six percent . professor b: yeah , so it 's it 's one point four times , uh , to , uh , seven times the error , phd d: to f seven times , yeah . professor b: for stephane . phd d: um . professor b: so , uh uh , but i i do n't know . i do do n't wan na take you away from other things . phd d: but { comment } but professor b: but that 's that 's what that 's the first thing that i would be curious about , is , you know , i i when you we phd d: but the signal itself is like a mix of um , of a a periodic sound and , @ @ { comment } uh , unvoiced sound , and the noise professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: which is mostly , uh , noise . i mean not periodic . so , what what do you mean exactly by putting back the pitch in ? because phd a: in the lpc synthesis ? i think professor b: yeah . you did lpc re - synthesis phd d: i professor b: l pc re - synthesis . phd d: uh - huh . professor b: so , uh and you did it with a noise source , rather than with with a s periodic source . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: right ? so if you actually did real re - synthesis like you do in an lpc synthesizer , where it 's unvoiced you use noise , where it 's voiced you use , uh , periodic pulses . phd d: um . professor b: right ? phd d: yeah , but it 's neither purely voiced or purely unvoiced . esp - especially because there is noise . professor b: well , it might be hard to do it phd d: so professor b: but it but but the thing is that if you um , if you detect that there 's periodic s strong periodic components , then you can use a voiced voice thing . phd d: oh . uh - huh . yeah . professor b: yeah . i mean , it 's probably not worth your time . it 's it 's a side thing and and and there 's a lot to do . phd d: uh - huh , yeah . professor b: but i 'm i 'm just saying , at least as a thought experiment , that 's what i would wan na test . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: uh , i wan would wan na drive it with a a a two - source system rather than a than a one - source system . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: and then that would tell you whether in fact it 's cuz we 've talked about , like , this harmonic tunneling or other things that people have done based on pitch , maybe that 's really a key element . maybe maybe , uh , uh , without that , it 's it 's not possible to do a whole lot better than we 're doing . that that could be . phd d: yeah . that 's what i was thinking by doing this es experiment , professor b: yeah . phd d: like mmm . evi professor b: but , i mean , other than that , i do n't think it 's i mean , other than the pitch de information , it 's hard to imagine that there 's a whole lot more in the signal that that , uh that we 're throwing away that 's important . phd d: yeah , but yeah . mm - hmm . yeah , right . professor b: right ? i mean , we 're using a fair number of filters in the filter bank and uh phd d: mm - hmm . uh , yeah . professor b: hmm . yeah . phd d: um . professor b: yeah . that look phd d: yeah , that 's it . professor b: yeah . that 's that 's i mean , one one percent is sort of what i would i would figure . if somebody was paying really close attention , you might get i would actually think that if , you looked at people on various times of the day and different amounts of attention , you might actually get up to three or four percent error on digits . uh , uh phd d: mm - hmm . um . professor b: so it 's you know , we 're not we 're not incredibly far off . on the other hand , with any of these numbers except maybe the one percent , it 's st it 's not actually usable in a commercial system with a full telephone number or something . phd d: uh - huh . yeah . at these noise levels . professor b: yeah . phd d: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: right . phd d: well , yeah . these numbers , i mean . mmm . professor b: good . um , while we 're still on aurora stuff maybe you can talk a little about the status with the , uh , wall street journal things for it . phd a: so i 've , um , downloaded , uh , a couple of things from mississippi state . um , one is their software their , uh , lvcsr system . downloaded the latest version of that . got it compiled and everything . um , downloaded the scripts . they wrote some scripts that sort of make it easy to run the system on the wall street journal , uh , data . um , so i have n't run the scripts yet . uh , i 'm waiting there was one problem with part of it and i wrote a note to joe asking him about it . so i 'm waiting to hear from him . but , um , i did print something out just to give you an idea about where the system is . uh , they on their web site they , uh , did this little table of where their system performs relative to other systems that have done this this task . and , um , the mississippi state system using a bigram grammar , uh , is at about eight point two percent . other comparable systems from , uh were getting from , uh , like six point nine , six point eight percent . so they 're professor b: this is on clean test set ? phd a: this is on clean on clean stuff . yeah . they they 've started a table where they 're showing their results on various different noise conditions but they they do n't have a whole lot of it filled in and and i did n't notice until after i 'd printed it out that , um , they do n't say here what these different testing conditions are . professor b: phd a: you actually have to click on it on the web site to see them . so i i do n't know what those numbers really mean . professor b: what kind of numbers are they getting on these on the test conditions ? phd a: well , see , i was a little confused because on this table , i 'm the they 're showing word error rate . but on this one , i i do n't know if these are word error rates because they 're really big . so , under condition one here it 's ten percent . then under three it goes to sixty - four point six percent . professor b: yeah , that 's probably aurora . phd a: yeah . professor b: i mean phd a: so m i guess maybe they 're error rates but they 're , uh they 're really high . professor b: i i i do n't find that surpri phd a: so professor b: i mean , we w what 's what 's some of the lower error rates on on on uh , some of the higher error rates on , uh , some of these w uh , uh , highly mismatched difficult conditions ? what 's a ? phd d: uh . yeah , it 's around fifteen to twenty percent . phd a: correct ? phd d: and the baseline , eh phd a: accuracy ? phd d: uh , error rate . professor b: yeah . phd d: twenty percent error rate , professor b: yeah . so twenty percent error rate on digits . phd d: and phd a: oh , oh , on digits . professor b: so if you 're doing so if you 're doing , phd d: and phd a: yeah . phd d: on digits . phd a: ok . professor b: you know , phd d: and this is so so still the baseline . professor b: sixty - thousand phd d: right ? phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah , and if you 're saying sixty - thousand word recognition , getting sixty percent error on some of these noise condition not at all surprising . phd a: yeah . phd d: the baseline is sixty percent also on digits , phd a: oh , is it ? phd d: on the m more mismatched conditions . phd a: ok . professor b: yeah . phd d: so . phd a: so , yeah , that 's probably what it is then . yeah . so they have a lot of different conditions that they 're gon na be filling out . professor b: it 's a bad sign when you looking at the numbers , you ca n't tell whether it 's accuracy or error rate . phd a: yeah . yeah . it 's it 's gon na be hard . um , they 're i i 'm still waiting for them to release the , um , multi - cpu version of their scripts , cuz right now their script only handles processing on a single cpu , which will take a really long time to run . so . but their s professor b: this is for the training ? phd a: uh i beli yes , for the training also . and , um , they 're supposed to be coming out with it any time , professor b: ok . phd a: the multi - cpu one . so , as soon as they get that , then i 'll i 'll grab those too professor b: ok . phd a: and so w professor b: yeah . cuz we have to get started , phd a: yeah . professor b: cuz it 's cuz , uh , phd a: yeah . i 'll go ahead and try to run it though with just the single cpu one , professor b: if the phd a: and i they they , um , released like a smaller data set that you can use that only takes like sixteen hours to train and stuff . so i can i can run it on that just to make sure that the the thing works and everything . professor b: oh ! good . yeah . cuz we 'll grad e: hmm . professor b: i guess the actual evaluation will be in six weeks or something . so . is that about right you think ? phd d: uh , we do n't know yet , i i think . professor b: really , we do n't know ? phd d: uh - huh . um . phd a: it was n't on the conference call this morning ? professor b: hmm . phd d: no . phd a: hmm . did they say anything on the conference call about , um , how the wall street journal part of the test was going to be run ? because i i thought i remembered hearing that some sites were saying that they did n't have the compute to be able to run the wall street journal stuff at their place , phd d: no . mmm . phd a: so there was some talk about having mississippi state run the systems for them . and i did did that come up at all ? phd d: uh , no . well , this first , this was not the point at all of this the meeting today phd a: oh , ok . phd d: and , professor b: some phd d: uh , frankly , i do n't know because i d { comment } did n't read also the most recent mails about the large - vocabulary task . but , uh , did you do you still , uh , get the mails ? you 're not on the mailing list or what ? phd a: hmm - mm . the only , um , mail i get is from mississippi state phd d: uh - huh . phd a: so phd d: oh , yeah . so we should have a look at this . phd a: about their system . i i do n't get any mail about professor b: i have to say , there 's uh something funny - sounding about saying that one of these big companies does n't have enough cup compute power do that , so they 're having to have it done by mississippi state . phd a: yeah . professor b: it just just sounds funny . phd a: yeah . it does . professor b: but , phd a: yeah . i 'm i 'm wondering about that professor b: anyway . phd a: because there 's this whole issue about , you know , simple tuning parameters , like word insertion penalties . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: and whether or not those are going to be tuned or not , and { comment } so . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: i mean , it makes a big difference . if you change your front - end , you know , the scale is completely can be completely different , so . it seems reasonable that that at least should be tweaked to match the front - end . but phd d: you did n't get any answer from joe ? phd a: i did , but joe said , you know , `` what you 're saying makes sense phd d: uh - huh . phd a: and i do n't know `` . so he does n't know what the answer is . phd d: uh - huh . phd a: i mean , that 's th we had this back and forth a little bit about , you know , are sites gon na are you gon na run this data for different sites ? and , well , if if mississippi state runs it , then maybe they 'll do a little optimization on that parameter , and , uh but then he was n't asked to run it for anybody . so i it 's it 's just not clear yet what 's gon na happen . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: uh , he 's been putting this stuff out on their web site and for people to grab but i have n't heard too much about what 's happening . professor b: so it could be i mean , chuck and i had actually talked about this a couple times , and and over some lunches , i think , that , um , one thing that we might wan na do the - there 's this question about , you know , what do you wan na scale ? suppose y you ca n't adjust these word insertion penalties and so forth , so you have to do everything at the level of the features . what could you do ? and , uh , one thing i had suggested at an earlier time was maybe some sort of scaling , some sort of root or or something of the , um , uh , features . but the problem with that is that is n't quite the same , it occurred to me later , because what you really want to do is scale the , uh , @ @ { comment } the range of the likelihoods rather than phd d: nnn , the dist yeah . professor b: but , what might get at something similar , it just occurred to me , is kind of an intermediate thing is because we do this strange thing that we do with the tandem system , at least in that system what you could do is take the , um , uh , values that come out of the net , which are something like log probabilities , and scale those . and then , uh , um then at least those things would have the right values or the right the right range . and then that goes into the rest of it and then that 's used as observations . so it 's it 's , um , another way to do it . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . but , these values are not directly used as probabilities anyway . professor b: i know they 're not . phd d: so there are there is professor b: i know they 're not . but but , you know so because what we 're doing is pretty strange and complicated , we do n't really know what the effect is at the other end . phd d: uh - huh . mm - hmm . professor b: so , um , my thought was maybe i mean , they 're not used as probabilities , but the log probabilities we 're taking advantage of the fact that something like log probabilities has more of a gaussian shape than gaus - than probabilities , and so we can model them better . so , in a way we 're taking advantage of the fact that they 're probabilities , because they 're this quantity that looks kind of gaussian when you take it 's log . so , { comment } uh , maybe maybe it would have a a reasonable effect to do that . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: i d i do n't know . but , i mean , i guess we still have n't had a a ruling back on this . and we may end up being in a situation where we just you know really ca n't change the word insertion penalty . but the other thing we could do is also we could i mean , this this may not help us , uh , in the evaluation but it might help us in our understanding at least . we might , just run it with different insper insertion penalties , and show that , uh , `` well , ok , not changing it , playing the rules the way you wanted , we did this . but in fact if we did that , it made a a big difference . `` phd a: i wonder if it it might be possible to , uh , simulate the back - end with some other system . so we we get our f front - end features , and then , uh , as part of the process of figuring out the scaling of these features , { comment } you know , if we 're gon na take it to a root or to a power or something , { comment } we have some back - end that we attach onto our features that sort of simulates what would be happening . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: um , professor b: and just adjust it until it 's the best number ? phd a: and just adjust it until that our l version of the back - end , uh , decides that that professor b: well , we can probably use the real thing , ca n't we ? and then jus just , uh , use it on a reduced test set or something . phd a: yeah . oh , yeah . that 's true . professor b: yeah . phd a: and then we just use that to determine some scaling factor that we use . professor b: yeah . so i mean , i i think that that 's a reasonable thing to do and the only question is what 's the actual knob that we use ? phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and the knob that we use should uh , uh , unfortunately , like i say , i do n't know the analytic solution to this cuz what we really want to do is change the scale of the likelihoods , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: not the cha not the scale of the the observations . but but , uh phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . grad e: out of curiosity , what what kind of recognizer is the one from mississippi state ? phd a: uh , w what do you mean when you say `` what kind `` ? grad e: is it ? um , is it like a gaussian mixture model ? phd a: yeah . gaussian mixture model . grad e: ok . phd a: it 's the same system that they use when they participate in the hub - five evals . it 's a , um sort of came out of , uh uh , looking a lot like htk . i mean , they started off with um , when they were building their system they were always comparing to htk to make sure they were getting similar results . and so , it 's a gaussian mixture system , uh professor b: do they have the same sort of mix - down sort of procedure , where they start off with a small number of some things phd a: i do n't know . yeah . and then divide the mixtures in half . professor b: and ? yeah . phd a: i do n't know if they do that . i 'm not really sure . professor b: yeah . grad e: hmm . professor b: d do you know what kind of tying they use ? are they they sort of some sort of a bunch of gaussians that they share across everything ? or or if it 's ? phd a: yeah , th i have i i i do n't have it up here but i have a the whole system description , that describes exactly what their system is professor b: ok . phd a: and i i 'm not sure . but , um professor b: ok . phd a: it 's some kind of a mixture of gaussians and , uh , clustering and , uh they 're they 're trying to put in sort of all of the standard features that people use nowadays . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: so the other , uh , aurora thing maybe is i i dunno if any of this is gon na come in in time to be relevant , but , uh , we had talked about , uh , { comment } guenter playing around , uh , uh , over in germany phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: and and , @ @ { comment } uh , possibly coming up with something that would , uh , uh , fit in later . uh , i saw that other mail where he said that he uh , it was n't going to work for him to do cvs . phd d: yeah . yeah . so now he has a version of the software . professor b: so he just has it all sitting there . yeah . phd d: yeah . um mm - hmm . professor b: so if he 'll he might work on improving the noise estimate or on some histogram things , or phd d: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . i just saw the eurospeech we we did n't talk about it at our meeting but i just saw the just read the paper . someone , i forget the name , { comment } and and ney , uh , about histogram equalization ? did you see that one ? phd d: um , it was a poster . or professor b: yeah . i mean , i just read the paper . phd d: yeah . professor b: i did n't see the poster . phd d: yeah . um it was something similar to n on - line normalization finally i mean , in the idea of of normalizing professor b: yeah . but it 's a little more it it 's a little finer , right ? so they had like ten quantiles phd d: yeah . professor b: and and they adjust the distribution . phd d: right . professor b: so you you have the distributions from the training set , phd d: n professor b: and then , uh so this is just a a histogram of of the amplitudes , i guess . right ? and then um , people do this in image processing some . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: you have this kind of of histogram of of levels of brightness or whatever . and and and then , when you get a new new thing that you you want to adjust to be better in some way , you adjust it so that the histogram of the new data looks like the old data . phd a: hmm . professor b: you do this kind of piece - wise linear or , uh , some kind of piece - wise approximation . they did a uh one version that was piece - wise linear and another that had a power law thing between them between the points . and , uh , they said they s they sort of see it in a way as s for the speech case { comment } as being kind of a generalization of spectral subtraction in a way , because , you know , in spectral subtraction you 're trying to get rid of this excess energy . uh , you know , it 's not supposed to be there . uh and , uh , this is sort of adjusting it for for a lot of different levels . and then they have s they have some kind of , uh , a floor or something , grad e: hmm . professor b: so if it gets too low you do n't do n't do it . phd a: hmm . professor b: and they they claimed very nice results , phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: so is this a histogram across different frequency bins ? professor b: and phd a: or ? professor b: um , i think this i you know , i do n't remember that . do you remember ? phd d: i think they have , yeah , different histograms . i uh something like one per frequency band , professor b: one phd a: so , one histogram per frequency bin . professor b: one per critical phd d: or but i did yeah , i guess . phd a: and that 's phd d: but i should read the paper . i just went through the poster quickly , professor b: yeah . phd a: so th professor b: and i do n't remember whether it was filter bank things phd a: oh . phd d: and i did n't professor b: or whether it was fft bins phd a: huh . professor b: or phd a: and and that that , um , histogram represents the different energy levels that have been seen at that frequency ? professor b: i do n't remember that . and how often they you 've seen them . yeah . phd a: uh - huh . grad e: hmm . professor b: yeah . and they do they said that they could do it for the test so you do n't have to change the training . you just do a measurement over the training . and then , uh , for testing , uh , you can do it for one per utterance . even relatively short utterances . and they claim it it works pretty well . phd a: so they , uh is the idea that you you run a test utterance through some histogram generation thing and then you compare the histograms and that tells you what to do to the utterance to make it more like ? professor b: i guess in pri yeah . in principle . phd a: i see . professor b: i did n't read carefully how they actually implemented it , phd a: hmm . yeah . professor b: whether it was some , uh , on - line thing , or whether it was a second pass , or what . but but they that that was sort of the idea . phd a: hmm . professor b: so that that seemed , you know , different . we 're sort of curious about , uh , what are some things that are , u u um , @ @ { comment } conceptually quite different from what we 've done . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: cuz we you know , one thing that w that , uh , stephane and sunil seemed to find , uh , was , you know , they could actually make a unified piece of software that handled a range of different things that people were talking about , and it was really just sort of setting of different constants . and it would turn , you know , one thing into another . it 'd turn wiener filtering into spectral subtraction , or whatever . but there 's other things that we 're not doing . so , we 're not making any use of pitch , uh , uh , which again , might might be important , uh , because the stuff between the harmonics is probably a schmutz . and and the , uh , transcribers will have fun with that . uh and , um , the , uh , stuff at the harmonics is n't so much . and and , uh and we there 's this overall idea of really sort of matching the the hi distributions somehow . uh , not just , um , um not just subtracting off your estimate of the noise . so . so i guess , uh , guenter 's gon na play around with some of these things now over this next period , phd d: uh , i dunno . professor b: or ? phd d: i do n't have feedback from him , but professor b: yeah . phd d: i guess he 's gon na , maybe professor b: well , he 's got it anyway , so he can . phd d: yeah . professor b: so potentially if he came up with something that was useful , like a diff a better noise estimation module or something , he could ship it to you guys u up there phd d: uh - huh . professor b: and phd d: yeah . professor b: we could put it in . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . yeah . so , that 's good . so , why do n't we just , uh , um i think starting starting a w couple weeks from now , especially if you 're not gon na be around for a while , we 'll we 'll be shifting more over to some other other territory . but , uh , uh , { comment } uh , n not not so much in this meeting about aurora , but but , uh , uh , maybe just , uh , quickly today about maybe you could just say a little bit about what you 've been talking about with michael . and and then barry can say something about what { comment } what we 're talking about . grad c: ok . so michael kleinschmidt , who 's a phd student from germany , showed up this week . he 'll be here for about six months . and he 's done some work using an auditory model of , um , human hearing , and using that f uh , to generate speech recognition features . and he did work back in germany with , um , a toy recognition system using , um , isolated digit recognition as the task . it was actually just a single - layer neural network that classified words classified digits , in fact . um , and he tried that on i think on some aurora data and got results that he thought seemed respectable . and he w he 's coming here to u u use it on a uh , a real speech recognition system . so i 'll be working with him on that . and , um , maybe i should say a little more about these features , although i do n't understand them that well . the i think it 's a two - stage idea . and , um , the first stage of these features correspond to what 's called the peripheral auditory system . and i guess that is like a filter bank with a compressive nonlinearity . and i 'm - i 'm not sure what we have @ @ in there that is n't already modeled in something like , um , plp . i should learn more about that . and then the second stage is , um , the most different thing , i think , from what we usually do . it 's , um it computes features which are , um , based on sort of like based on diffe different w um , wavelet basis functions used to analyze the input . so th he uses analysis functions called gabor functions , um , which have a certain extent , um , in time and in frequency . and the idea is these are used to sample , um , the signal in a represented as a time - frequency representation . so you 're sampling some piece of this time - frequency plane . and , um , that , um , is is interesting , cuz , @ @ for for one thing , you could use it , um , in a a multi - scale way . you could have these instead of having everything like we use a twenty - five millisecond or so analysis window , typically , um , and that 's our time scale for features , but you could using this , um , basis function idea , you could have some basis functions which have a lot longer time scale and , um , some which have a lot shorter , and so it would be like a set of multi - scale features . so he 's interested in , um th - this is because it 's , um there are these different parameters for the shape of these basis functions , um there are a lot of different possible basis functions . and so he he actually does an optimization procedure to choose an an optimal set of basis functions out of all the possible ones . phd a: hmm . h what does he do to choose those ? grad c: the method he uses is kind of funny is , { comment } um , he starts with he has a set of m of them . um , he and then he uses that to classify i mean , he t he tries , um , using just m minus one of them . so there are m possible subsets of this length - m vector . he tries classifying , using each of the m possible sub - vectors . phd d: hmm . grad c: whichever sub - vector , um , works the the best , i guess , he says the the fe feature that did n't use was the most useless feature , professor b: y yeah . gets thrown out . yeah . grad c: so we 'll throw it out and we 're gon na randomly select another feature from the set of possible basis functions . phd a: hmm ! professor b: yeah . phd a: so it 's a professor b: so i so it 's actuall phd a: it 's a little bit like a genetic algorithm or something in a way . professor b: well , it 's it 's much simpler . grad e: it 's like a greedy professor b: but it 's but it 's uh , it 's there 's a lot number of things i like about it , let me just say . phd a: greedy . professor b: so , first thing , well , you 're absolutely right . i mean , i i in truth , both pieces of this are have their analogies in stuff we already do . but it 's a different take at how to approach it and potentially one that 's m maybe a bit more systematic than what we 've done , uh , and a b a bit more inspiration from from auditory things . so it 's so i think it 's a neat thing to try . the primary features , um , are in fact yeah , essentially , it 's it 's , uh , you know , plp or or mel cepstrum , or something like that . you 've you 've got some , uh , compression . we always have some compression . we always have some you know , the the the kind of filter bank with a kind of quasi - log scaling . um , if you put in if you also include the rasta in it i rasta the filtering being done in the log domain has an agc - like , uh , characteristic , which , you know , people typi typically put in these kind of , uh , um , uh , auditory front - ends . so it 's very , very similar , uh , but it 's not exactly the same . um , i would agree that the second one is is somewhat more different but , um , it 's mainly different in that the things that we have been doing like that have been um , had a different kind of motivation and have ended up with different kinds of constraints . so , for instance , if you look at the lda rasta stuff , you know , basically what they do is they they look at the different eigenvectors out of the lda and they form filters out of it . right ? and those filters have different , uh , kinds of temporal extents and temporal characteristics . and so in fact they 're multi - scale . but , they 're not sort of systematically multi - scale , like `` let 's start here and go to there , and go to there , and go to there `` , and so forth . it 's more like , you run it on this , you do discriminant analysis , and you find out what 's helpful . grad c: i it 's multi - scale because you use several of these in parallel , professor b: yeah . they use several of them . grad c: is that right ? of professor b: yeah . grad c: ok . professor b: uh , i mean , you do n't have to but but but , uh , hynek has . um , but it 's also , uh hyn - when hynek 's had people do this kind of lda analysis , they 've done it on frequency direction and they 've done it on the time direction . i think he may have had people sometimes doing it on both simultaneously some two - d and that would be the closest to these gabor function kind of things . uh , but i do n't think they 've done that much of that . and , uh , the other thing that 's interesting the the , uh the feature selection thing , it 's a simple method , but i kinda like it . um , there 's a a old , old method for feature selection . i mean , eh , uh , i remember people referring to it as old when i was playing with it twenty years ago , so i know it 's pretty old , uh , called stepwise linear discriminant analysis in which you which i think it 's used in social sciences a lot . so , you you you you pick the best feature . and then you take y you find the next feature that 's the best in combination with it . and then so on and so on . and what what michael 's describing seems to me much , much better , because the problem with the stepwise discriminant analysis is that you do n't know that you know , if you 've picked the right set of features . just because something 's a good feature does n't mean that you should be adding it . so , um , uh , here at least you 're starting off with all of them , and you 're throwing out useless features . i think that 's that seems , uh that seems like a lot better idea . uh , you 're always looking at things in combination with other features . um , so the only thing is , of course , there 's this this artificial question of of , uh , exactly how you how you a how you assess it and if if your order had been different in throwing them out . i mean , it still is n't necessarily really optimal , but it seems like a pretty good heuristic . so i th i think it 's it 's i think it 's kinda neat stuff . grad e: hmm . professor b: and and and , uh , the thing that i wanted to to add to it also was to have us use this in a multi - stream way . grad e: hmm . professor b: um , so so that , um , when you come up with these different things , and these different functions , you do n't necessarily just put them all into one huge vector , but perhaps you have some of them in one stream and some of them in another stream , and so forth . and , um , um , { comment } um and we 've also talked a little bit about , uh , uh , shihab shamma 's stuff , in which you the way you look at it is that there 's these different mappings and some of them emphasize , uh , upward moving , uh , energy and fre and frequency . and some are emphasizing downward and fast things and slow things and and so forth . so . so there 's a bunch of stuff to look at . but , uh , i think we 're sorta gon na start off with what he , uh , came here with and branch out branch out from there . and his advisor is here , too , at the same time . so , he 'll be another interesting source of wisdom . grad e: hmm . professor b: so . grad e: as as we were talking about this i was thinking , um , whether there 's a relationship between um , between michael 's approach to , uh , some some sort of optimal brain damage or optimal brain surgeon on the neural nets . professor b: yeah . grad c: hmm . grad e: so , like , if we have , um we have our we have our rasta features and and presumably the neural nets are are learning some sort of a nonlinear mapping , uh , from the the the features to to this this probability posterior space . professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: right ? and , um and each of the hidden units is learning some sort of some sort of some sort of pattern . right ? and it could be , like like these , um these auditory patterns that michael is looking at . and then when you 're looking at the the , uh , um , the best features , you know , you can take out you can do the do this , uh , brain surgery by taking out , um , hidden units that do n't really help at all . professor b: mm - hmm . or the or features . grad e: and this is k sorta like professor b: right ? grad e: yeah . professor b: i mean , y actually , you make me think a a very important point here is that , um , if we a again try to look at how is this different from what we 're already doing , uh , there 's a a , uh a nasty argument that could be made th that it 's it 's not different at at all , because , uh if you ignore the the selection part because we are going into a a very powerful , uh , nonlinearity that , uh , in fact is combining over time and frequency , and is coming up with its own you know , better than gabor functions its , you know , neural net functions , grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: its { comment } whatever it finds to be best . grad c: professor b: um , so you could argue that in fact it but i i do n't actually believe that argument because i know that , um , you can , uh computing features is useful , even though in principle you have n't added anything in fact , you subtracted something , from the original waveform you know , uh , if you 've you 've processed it in some way you 've typically lost something some information . and so , you 've lost information and yet it does better with with features than it does with the waveform . so , uh , i i know that i sometimes it 's useful to to constrain things . so that 's why it really seems like the constraint in in all this stuff it 's the constraints that are actually what matters . because if it was n't the constraints that mattered , then we would 've completely solved this problem long ago , because long ago we already knew how to put waveforms into powerful statistical mechanisms . so . phd d: yeah . well , if we had infinite processing power and data , { comment } i guess , using the waveform could grad e: right . professor b: yeah uh , then it would work . yeah , i agree . yeah . there 's the problem . phd d: so , that 's professor b: yeah . then it would work . but but , i mean , i it 's with finite of those things i mean , uh , we we have done experiments where we literally have put waveforms in and and and , uh , phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: we kept the number of parameters the same and so forth , and it used a lot of training data . and it and it it , uh not infinite but a lot , and then compared to the number parameters and it it , uh it just does n't do nearly as well . so , anyway the point is that you want to suppress phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: it 's not just having the maximum information , you want to suppress , uh , the aspects of the input signal that are not helpful for for the discrimination you 're trying to make . so . so maybe just briefly , uh grad e: well , that sort of segues into what what i 'm doing . professor b: yeah . grad e: um , so , uh , the big picture is k um , come up with a set of , uh , intermediate categories , then build intermediate category classifiers , then do recognition , and , um , improve speech recognition in that way . um , so right now i 'm in in the phase where i 'm looking at at , um , deciding on a initial set of intermediate categories . and i 'm looking for data data - driven methods that can help me find , um , a set of intermediate categories of speech that , uh , will help me to discriminate later down the line . and one of the ideas , um , that was to take a take a neural net train train an ordinary neural net to uh , to learn the posterior probabilities of phones . and so , um , at the end of the day you have this neural net and it has hidden hidden units . and each of these hidden units is um , is learning some sort of pattern . and so , um , what what are these patterns ? phd a: hmm . grad e: i do n't know . um , and i 'm gon na to try to to look at those patterns to to see , um , from those patterns uh , presumably those are important patterns for discriminating between phone classes . and maybe maybe some , uh , intermediate categories can come from just looking at the patterns of um , that the neural net learns . professor b: be - before you get on the next part l let me just point out that s there 's there 's a a pretty nice { comment } relationship between what you 're talking about doing and what you 're talking about doing there . right ? grad e: yeah . professor b: so , it seems to me that , you know , if you take away the the the difference of this primary features , and , say , you use as we had talked about maybe doing you use p - rasta - plp or something for the the primary features , um , then this feature discovery , uh , uh , thing is just what he 's talking about doing , too , except that he 's talking about doing them in order to discover intermediate categories that correspond to these uh , uh , what these sub - features are are are are showing you . and , um , the other difference is that , um , he 's doing this in a in a multi - band setting , which means that he 's constraining himself to look across time in some f relatively limited , uh , uh , spectral extent . right ? and whereas in in this case you 're saying `` let 's just do it unconstrained `` . so they 're they 're really pretty related and maybe they 'll be at some point where we 'll see the the connections a little better and connect them . grad c: hmm . grad e: mm - hmm . um . yeah , so so that 's the that 's the first part uh , one one of the ideas to get at some some patterns of intermediate categories . um , the other one was , um , to , uh , come up with a a a model { comment } um , a graphical model , that treats the intermediate categories as hidden hidden variables , latent variables , that we do n't know anything about , but that through , um , s statistical training and the em algorithm , um , at the end of the day , we have , um we have learned something about these these latent , um latent variables which happen to correspond to intermediate categories . um . yeah , and so those are the the two directions that i 'm i 'm looking into right now . and , uh , um yeah . i guess that 's that 's it . professor b: ok . should we do our digits and get ou get our treats ? grad e: oh , tea time ? professor b: yeah . it 's kind of like , you know , the little rats with the little thing dropping down to them . phd a: that 's ri professor b: we do the digits and then we get our treats . grad e: oops . phd a: ok .

phd a wanted to know what exactly the technique did . phd a inquired into how the histogram may represent energy levels and how histograms could speak to what can be done with the model .

summarize the meeting </s> phd a: ok , we 're on . professor c: ok , what are we talking about today ? phd b: i do n't know . do you have news from the conference talk ? uh , that was programmed for yesterday i guess . professor c: uh phd d: yesterday professor c: uh phd d: yesterday morning on video conference . professor c: uh , phd b: well professor c: oh , i 'm sorry . grad e: oh . conference call . professor c: i know now i know what you 're talking about . no , nobody 's told me anything . phd b: alright . phd a: oh , this was the , uh , talk where they were supposed to try to decide phd b: to to decide what to do , phd a: ah , right . phd b: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor c: yeah . no , that would have been a good thing to find out before this meeting , that 's . no , i have no i have no idea . um , uh , so i mean , let 's let 's assume for right now that we 're just kind of plugging on ahead , phd b: yeah . professor c: because even if they tell us that , uh , the rules are different , uh , we 're still interested in doing what we 're doing . so what are you doing ? phd b: mm - hmm . uh , well , we 've a little bit worked on trying to see , uh , what were the bugs and the problem with the latencies . phd d: to improve phd b: so , we took first we took the lda filters and , uh , we designed new filters , using uh recursive filters actually . professor c: so when you say `` we `` , is that something sunil is doing or is that ? phd b: i 'm sorry ? professor c: who is doing that ? phd b: uh , us . yeah . professor c: oh , oh . oh , ok . phd b: so we took the filters the fir filters and we { comment } designed , uh , iir filters that have the same frequency response . phd d: but professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: well , similar , but that have shorter delays . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: so they had two filters , one for the low frequency bands and another for the high frequency bands . and so we redesigned two filters . and the low frequency band has sixty - four milliseconds of delay , and the high frequency band filter has something like eleven milliseconds compared to the two hundred milliseconds of the iir filters . but it 's not yet test . so we have the filters but we still have to implement a routine that does recursive filtering professor c: ok . phd b: and professor c: you you had a discussion with sunil about this though ? phd b: no . no . professor c: uh - huh . yeah , you should talk with him . phd b: yeah , yeah . professor c: yeah . no , i mean , because the the the the whole problem that happened before was coordination , phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: right ? so so you need to discuss with him what we 're doing , phd b: yeah . professor c: uh , cuz they could be doing the same thing and or something . phd b: mm - hmm . uh , i yeah , i do n't know if th that 's what they were trying to they were trying to do something different like taking , uh well , using filter that takes only a past professor c: right . phd b: and this is just a little bit different . but i will i will send him an email and tell him exactly what we are doing , so . professor c: yeah , yeah . um , phd b: um , professor c: i mean we just we just have to be in contact more . i think that the the fact that we we did that with had that thing with the latencies was indicative of the fact that there was n't enough communication . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: so . phd b: alright . professor c: ok . phd b: um , yeah . well , there is w one , um , remark about these filters , that they do n't have a linear phase . so , professor c: right . phd b: well , i do n't know , perhaps it perhaps it does n't hurt because the phase is almost linear but . um , and so , yeah , for the delay i gave you here , it 's it 's , uh , computed on the five hertz modulation frequency , which is the mmm , well , the most important for speech so . uh , this is the first thing . professor c: so that would be , uh , a reduction of a hundred and thirty - six milliseconds , phd d: the low f f phd b: yeah . professor c: which , uh what was the total we ended up with through the whole system ? phd b: three hundred and thirty . professor c: so that would be within ? phd b: yeah , but there are other points actually , uh , which will perhaps add some more delay . is that some other other stuff in the process were perhaps not very um perf well , not very correct , like the downsampling which w was simply dropping frames . professor c: yeah . phd b: um , so we will try also to add a nice downsampling having a filter that that professor c: uh - huh . phd b: well , a low - pass filter at at twenty - five hertz . uh , because wh when when we look at the lda filters , well , they are basically low - pass but they leave a lot of what 's above twenty - five hertz . professor c: yeah . phd b: um , and so , yeah , this will be another filter which would add ten milliseconds again . professor c: yeah . phd b: um , yeah , and then there 's a third thing , is that , um , basically the way on - line normalization was done uh , is just using this recursion on on the um , um , on the feature stream , professor c: yeah . phd b: and but this is a filter , so it has also a delay . uh , and when we look at this filter actually it has a delay of eighty - five milliseconds . so if we professor c: eighty - five . phd b: yeah . if we want to be very correct , so if we want to the estimation of the mean t t to to be well , the right estimation of the mean , we have to t to take eighty - five milliseconds in the future . mmm . professor c: hmm ! that 's a little bit of a problem . phd b: yeah . um , but , well , when we add up everything it 's it will be alright . we would be at six so , sixty - five , plus ten , plus for the downsampling , plus eighty - five for the on - line normalization . so it 's professor c: uh , phd b: plus plus eighty for the neural net and pca . professor c: yeah , but then there 's oh . phd b: so it would be around two hundred and forty so , well , professor c: just just barely in there . phd b: plus plus the frames , but it 's ok . phd a: what 's the allowable ? professor c: two - fifty , unless they changed the rules . phd b: hmm . professor c: which there is there 's some discussion of . phd a: what were they thinking of changing it to ? professor c: but phd b: yeah . professor c: uh , well the people who had very low latency want it to be low uh , very very very narrow , uh , latency bound . and the people who have longer latency do n't . so . phd a: huh . phd b: so , yeah . professor c: unfortunately we 're the main ones with long latency , but phd a: ah ! professor c: but , uh , phd b: yeah , and basically the best proposal had something like thirty or forty milliseconds of latency . professor c: you know , it 's yeah . phd b: so . well . professor c: yeah , so they were basically i mean , they were more or less trading computation for performance and we were , uh , trading latency for performance . and they were dealing with noise explicitly and we were n't , and so i think of it as complementary , that if we can put the phd a: think of it as what ? professor c: complementary . phd a: hmm . professor c: i think the best systems so , uh , everything that we did in in a way it was it was just adamantly insisting on going in with a brain damaged system , which is something actually , we 've done a lot over the last thirteen years . uh , which is we say , well this is the way we should do it . and then we do it . and then someone else does something that 's straight forward . so , w th w this was a test that largely had additive noise and we did we adde did absolutely nothing explicitly to handle ad additive noise . phd a: right . professor c: we just , uh , you know , trained up systems to be more discriminant . and , uh , we did this , uh , rasta - like filtering which was done in the log domain and was tending to handle convolutional noise . we did we actually did nothing about additive noise . so , um , the , uh , spectral sub subtraction schemes a couple places did seem to seem to do a nice job . and so , uh , we 're talking about putting putting some of that in while still keeping some of our stuff . i think you should be able to end up with a system that 's better than both but clearly the way that we 're operating for this other stuff does involved some latency to to get rid of most of that latency . to get down to forty or fifty milliseconds we 'd have to throw out most of what we 're doing . and and , uh , i do n't think there 's any good reason for it in the application actually . i mean , you 're you 're you 're speaking to a recognizer on a remote server and , uh , having a a a quarter second for some processing to clean it up . it does n't seem like it 's that big a deal . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: these are n't large vocabulary things so the decoder should n't take a really long time , and . phd a: and i do n't think anybody 's gon na notice the difference between a quarter of a second of latency and thirty milliseconds of latency . professor c: so . no . what what does wa was your experience when you were doing this stuff with , uh , the the the surgical , uh , uh , microscopes and so forth . um , how long was it from when somebody , uh , finished an utterance to when , uh , something started happening ? phd a: um , we had a silence detector , so we would look for the end of an utterance based on the silence detector . professor c: mm - hmm . phd a: and i i ca n't remember now off the top of my head how many frames of silence we had to detect before we would declare it to be the end of an utterance . professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: um , but it was , uh , i would say it was probably around the order of two hundred and fifty milliseconds . professor c: yeah , and that 's when you 'd start doing things . phd a: yeah , we did the back trace at that point to get the answer . professor c: yeah . of course that did n't take too long at that point . phd a: no , no it was pretty quick . professor c: yeah . phd a: so professor c: yeah , so you you so you had a phd a: this w professor c: so you had a a quarter second delay before , uh , plus some little processing time , phd a: right . professor c: and then the the microscope would start moving or something . phd a: right . professor c: yeah . phd a: right . professor c: and there 's physical inertia there , so probably the the motion itself was all phd a: and it felt to , uh , the users that it was instantaneous . i mean , as fast as talking to a person . it th i do n't think anybody ever complained about the delay . professor c: yeah , so you would think as long as it 's under half a second or something . phd a: yeah . professor c: uh , i 'm not an expert on that phd a: yeah . professor c: but . phd a: i do n't remember the exact numbers but it was something like that . professor c: yeah . phd a: i do n't think you can really tell . a person i do n't think a person can tell the difference between , uh , you know , a quarter of a second and a hundred milliseconds , and i 'm not even sure if we can tell the difference between a quarter of a second and half a second . professor c: yeah . phd a: i mean it just it feels so quick . professor c: yeah . i mean , basically if you yeah , if you said , uh , um , `` what 's the , uh , uh what 's the shortest route to the opera ? `` and it took half a second to get back to you , phd a: yeah . professor c: i mean , it would be f i mean , it might even be too abrupt . you might have to put in a s a s a delay . phd a: yeah . i mean , it may feel different than talking to a person professor c: yeah . phd a: because when we talk to each other we tend to step on each other 's utterances . so like if i 'm asking you a question , you may start answering before i 'm even done . professor c: yeah . phd a: so it it would probably feel different professor c: right . phd a: but i do n't think it would feel slow . professor c: right . well , anyway , i mean , i think we could cut we know what else , we could cut down on the neural net time by by , uh , playing around a little bit , going more into the past , or something like that . we t we talked about that . phd a: so is the latency from the neural net caused by how far ahead you 're looking ? professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: and there 's also well , there 's the neural net and there 's also this , uh , uh , multi - frame , uh , uh , klt . phd a: was n't there was it in the , uh , recurrent neural nets where they were n't looking ahead at all ? professor c: they were n't looking ahead much . they p they looked ahead a little bit . phd a: a little bit . ok . professor c: yeah . yeah , i mean , you could do this with a recurrent net . and and then but you also could just , um , i mean , we have n't experimented with this but i imagine you could , um , uh , predict a , uh um , a label , uh , from more in the past than in than than in the future . i mean , we 've d we 've done some stuff with that before . i think it it works ok . phd b: mm - hmm . phd a: we 've always had usually we used the symmetric windows professor c: so . phd a: but i do n't think professor c: yeah , but we 've but we played a little bit with with asymmetric , guys . phd a: yeah . professor c: you can do it . so . so , that 's what that 's what you 're busy with , s messing around with this , phd b: uh , yeah . professor c: yeah . and , uh , phd d: also we were thinking to to , uh , apply the eh , spectral subtraction from ericsson phd b: yeah . professor c: uh - huh . phd d: and to to change the contextual klt for lda . phd a: change the what ? phd d: the contextual klt . phd a: i 'm missing that last word . context professor c: k klt . phd a: klt . phd d: klt grad e: oh . klt . phd a: oh , klt . professor c: mm - hmm . phd a: uh - huh . phd d: klt , i 'm sorry . uh , to change and use lda discriminative . phd b: yeah . professor c: uh - huh . phd d: but i do n't know . professor c: uh , phd a: what is the advantage of that ? phd d: uh phd b: well , it 's that by the for the moment we have , uh , something that 's discriminant and nonlinear . and the other is linear but it 's not discriminant at all . well , it 's it 's a linear transformation , that uh professor c: so at least just to understand maybe what the difference was between how much you were getting from just putting the frames together and how much you 're getting from the discriminative , what the nonlinearity does for you or does n't do for you . just to understand it a little better i guess . phd b: mmm . well uh yeah . actually what we want to do , perhaps it 's to replace to to have something that 's discriminant but linear , also . and to see if it if it improves ov over over the non - discriminant linear transformation . phd a: hmm . phd b: and if the neural net is better than this or , well . so . professor c: yeah , well , that 's what i meant , is to see whether whether it having the neural net really buys you anything . phd b: ye mmm . professor c: uh , i mean , it doe did look like it buys you something over just the klt . phd b: yeah . professor c: but maybe it 's just the discrimination and and maybe yeah , maybe the nonlinear discrimination is n't necessary . phd d: s maybe . phd b: yeah . mm - hmm . professor c: could be . phd d: maybe . professor c: good good to know . but the other part you were saying was the spectral subtraction , so you just kind of , uh phd b: yeah . professor c: at what stage do you do that ? do you you 're doing that , um ? phd b: so it would be on the um on on the mel frequency bands , phd d: we was think phd b: so . yeah , be before everything . professor c: ok , phd d: yeah , professor c: so just do that on the mel f phd d: we no nnn we we was thinking to do before after vad or phd b: yeah , phd d: oh , { comment } we do n't know exactly when it 's better . phd b: um phd d: before after vad or professor c: so so you know that that that the way that they 're phd d: and then phd b: um . professor c: uh , one thing that would be no good to find out about from this conference call is that what they were talking about , what they 're proposing doing , was having a third party , um , run a good vad , and and determine boundaries . phd d: yeah . professor c: and then given those boundaries , then have everybody do the recognition . phd d: begin to work . professor c: the reason for that was that , um , uh if some one p one group put in the vad and another did n't , uh , or one had a better vad than the other since that they 're not viewing that as being part of the the task , and that any any manufacturer would put a bunch of effort into having some s kind of good speech - silence detection . it still would n't be perfect but i mean , e the argument was `` let 's not have that be part of this test . `` `` let 's let 's separate that out . `` and so , uh , i guess they argued about that yesterday and , yeah , i 'm sorry , i do n't do n't know the answer but we should find out . i 'm sure we 'll find out soon what they , uh what they decided . so , uh yeah , so there 's the question of the vad but otherwise it 's it 's on the the , uh the mel fil filter bank , uh , energies i guess ? phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: mmm , yeah . professor c: you do doing the ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: and you 're you 're subtracting in the in the in the i guess it 's power power domain , uh , or or magnitude domain . probably power domain , right ? phd b: i guess it 's power domain , yeah . professor c: why phd b: i do n't remember exactly . professor c: yeah , phd d: i do n't remember . phd b: but yeah , so it 's before everything else , professor c: yep . phd b: and professor c: i mean , if you look at the theory , it 's it should be in the power domain but but , uh , i 've seen implementations where people do it in the magnitude domain phd b: yeah . professor c: and phd b: mmm . professor c: i have asked people why and they shrug their shoulders and say , `` oh , it works . `` so . phd b: yeah . professor c: uh , and there 's this i guess there 's this mysterious i mean people who do this a lot i guess have developed little tricks of the trade . i mean , there 's there 's this , um you do n't just subtract the the estimate of the noise spectrum . you subtract th that times phd b: a little bit more and yeah . professor c: or or less , or phd a: really ? phd b: yeah . phd a: huh ! professor c: yeah . phd b: and generated this this , professor c: uh . phd b: um , so you have the estimation of the power spectra of the noise , and you multiply this by a factor which is depend dependent on the snr . so . well . phd d: hmm , maybe . phd a: hmm ! phd b: when the speech lev when the signal level is more important , compared to this noise level , the coefficient is small , and around one . but when the power le the s signal level is uh small compared to the noise level , the coefficient is more important . and this reduce actually the music musical noise , phd a: oh ! phd b: uh which is more important during silence portions , phd a: uh - huh . phd b: when the s the energy 's small . phd a: hmm ! phd b: so there are tricks like this but , mmm . phd a: hmm ! professor c: yeah . phd b: yeah . professor c: so . phd a: is the estimate of the noise spectrum a running estimate ? or phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd b: yeah . professor c: well , that 's i mean , that 's what differs from different different tasks and different s uh , spectral subtraction methods . phd a: hmm ! professor c: i mean , if if you have , uh , fair assurance that , uh , the noise is is quite stationary , then the smartest thing to do is use as much data as possible to estimate the noise , get a much better estimate , and subtract it off . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: but if it 's varying at all , which is gon na be the case for almost any real situation , you have to do it on - line , uh , with some forgetting factor or something . phd a: so do you is there some long window that extends into the past over which you calculate the average ? professor c: well , there 's a lot of different ways of computing the noise spectrum . so one of the things that , uh , hans - guenter hirsch did , uh and pas and other people actually , he 's he was n't the only one i guess , was to , uh , take some period of of of speech and in each band , uh , develop a histogram . so , to get a decent histogram of these energies takes at least a few seconds really . but , uh i mean you can do it with a smaller amount but it 's pretty rough . and , um , in fact i think the nist standard method of determining signal - to - noise ratio is based on this . phd a: a couple seconds ? professor c: so no , no , it 's based on this kind of method , phd a: hmm . professor c: this histogram method . so you have a histogram . now , if you have signal and you have noise , you basically have these two bumps in the histogram , which you could approximate as two gaussians . phd a: but wh do n't they overlap sometimes ? professor c: oh , yeah . phd a: ok . professor c: so you have a mixture of two gaussians . phd a: yeah . professor c: right ? and you can use em to figure out what it is . you know . phd a: yeah . professor c: so so basically now you have this mixture of two gaussians , you you n know what they are , and , uh i mean , sorry , you estimate what they are , and , uh , so this gives you what the signal is and what the noise e energy is in that band in the spectrum . and then you look over the whole thing and now you have a noise spectrum . so , uh , hans - guenter hirsch and others have used that kind of method . and the other thing to do is which is sort of more trivial and obvious { comment } is to , uh , uh , determine through magical means that that , uh , there 's no speech in some period , and then see what the spectrum is . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , but , you know , it 's that that that 's tricky to do . it has mistakes . uh , and if you 've got enough time , uh , this other method appears to be somewhat more reliable . uh , a variant on that for just determining signal - to - noise ratio is to just , uh you can do a w a uh an iterative thing , em - like thing , to determine means only . i guess it is em still , but just just determine the means only . do n't worry about the variances . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and then you just use those mean values as being the the , uh uh signal - to - noise ratio in that band . phd a: but what is the it seems like this kind of thing could add to the latency . i mean , depending on where the window was that you used to calculate the signal - to - noise ratio . phd b: yeah , sure . but mmm . professor c: not necessarily . cuz if you do n't look into the future , right ? phd a: ok , well that i guess that was my question , professor c: if you just yeah phd a: yeah . professor c: i mean , if you just if you you , uh a at the beginning you have some phd a: guess . professor c: esti some guess and and , uh , uh phd b: yeah , but it professor c: it 's an interesting question . i wonder how they did do it ? phd b: actually , it 's a mmm if - if you want to have a good estimation on non - stationary noise you have to look in the in the future . i mean , if you take your window and build your histogram in this window , um , what you can expect is to have an estimation of th of the noise in in the middle of the window , not at the end . so professor c: well , yeah , phd b: the but but people professor c: but what does what what what does alcatel do ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: and and france telecom . phd b: the they just look in the past . i guess it works because the noise are , uh pret uh , almost stationary professor c: pretty stationary . grad e: pretty stationary , phd b: but , um professor c: well , the thing , e e e e grad e: yeah . professor c: yeah , y i mean , you 're talking about non - stationary noise but i think that spectral subtraction is rarely is is not gon na work really well for for non - stationary noise , phd b: well , if y if you have a good estimation of the noise , professor c: you know ? phd b: yeah , because well it it has to work . professor c: but it 's hard to phd b: i professor c: but that 's hard to do . phd b: yeah , that 's hard to do . yeah . professor c: yeah . so so i think that that what what is wh what 's more common is that you 're going to be helped with r slowly varying or stationary noise . phd b: but mm - hmm . professor c: that 's what spectral subtraction will help with , practically speaking . phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: if it varies a lot , to get a if if to get a good estimate you need a few seconds of speech , even if it 's centered , right ? phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: if you need a few seconds to get a decent estimate but it 's changed a lot in a few seconds , then it , you know , i it 's kind of a problem . phd b: yeah . professor c: i mean , imagine e five hertz is the middle of the of the speech modulation spectrum , phd b: mmm . professor c: right ? so imagine a jack hammer going at five hertz . phd b: yeah , that 's professor c: i mean , good good luck . so , phd b: so in this case , yeah , sure , you can not professor c: yeah . phd b: but i think y um , hirsch does experiment with windows of like between five hundred milliseconds and one second . and well , five hundred wa was not so bad . i mean and he worked on non - stationary noises , like noise modulated with well , wi with amplitude modulations and things like that , phd a: were his , uh , windows centered around the phd b: and but um , yeah . well , i think yeah . well , in in the paper he showed that actually the estimation of the noise is is delayed . well , it 's there is you you have to center the window , yeah . professor c: yeah . phd b: mmm . professor c: no , i understand it 's better to do but i just think that that , uh , for real noises wh what what 's most likely to happen is that there 'll be some things that are relatively stationary phd b: mmm . professor c: where you can use one or another spectral subtraction thing phd b: yeah . professor c: and other things where it 's not so stationary and i mean , you can always pick something that that falls between your methods , phd b: hmm . professor c: uh , uh , but i do n't know if , you know , if sinusoidally , uh , modul amplitude modulated noise is is sort of a big problem in in in practice . phd b: yeah . professor c: i think that it 's uh phd a: we could probably get a really good estimate of the noise if we just went to the noise files , and built the averages from them . professor c: yeah . well . phd b: what what do you mean ? professor c: just cheat you 're saying , cheat . phd b: but if the if the noise is stationary perhaps you do n't even need some kind of noise estimation algorithm . professor c: yeah . yeah . phd b: we just take th th th the beginning of the utterance and professor c: oh , yeah , sure . phd b: i i know p i do n't know if people tried this for aurora . phd d: it 's the same . phd b: well , everybody seems to use some kind of adaptive , well , scheme professor c: but but phd d: yeah . phd b: but , phd d: a dictionary . phd b: is it very useful professor c: you know , stationary phd a: very slow adaptation . phd b: and is the c phd a: th professor c: right , the word `` stationary `` is has a very precise statistical meaning . but , you know , in in signal - processing really what we 're talking about i think is things that change slowly , uh , compared with our our processing techniques . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: so if you 're driving along in a car i i would think that most of the time the nature of the noise is going to change relatively slowly . it 's not gon na stay absolute the same . if you if you check it out , uh , five minutes later you may be in a different part of the road phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: or whatever . but it 's it 's i i i using the local characteristics in time , is probably going to work pretty well . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: but you could get hurt a lot if you just took some something from the beginning of all the speech , of , you know , an hour of speech and then later phd b: yeah . professor c: uh , so they may be you know , may be overly , uh , complicated for for this test but but but , uh , i do n't know . but what you 're saying , you know , makes sense , though . i mean , if possible you should n't you should you should make it , uh , the center of the center of the window . but uh , we 're already having problems with these delay , uh delay issues . phd b: yeah , so . professor c: so , uh , we 'll have to figure ways without it . um , phd a: if they 're going to provide a , uh , voice activity detector that will tell you the boundaries of the speech , then , could n't you just go outside those boundaries and do your estimate there ? professor c: oh , yeah . you bet . yeah . so i i imagine that 's what they 're doing , right ? is they 're they 're probably looking in nonspeech sections and getting some , uh phd b: yeah , they have some kind of threshold on on the previous estimate , and so . yeah . i think . yeah , i think ericsson used this kind of threshold . yeah , so , they h they have an estimate of the noise level and they put a threshold like six or ten db above , and what 's under this threshold is used to update the estimate . is is that right phd d: yeah . phd b: or ? phd d: i think so . phd b: so it 's it 's phd d: i have not here the proposal . phd b: yeah . it 's like saying what 's under the threshold is silence , professor c: does france telecom do this phd b: and grad e: hmm . professor c: does france telecom do th do the same thing ? more or less ? phd b: i d i y you know , perhaps ? phd d: no . i do i have not here the proposal . professor c: ok . um , ok , if we 're we 're done done with that , uh , let 's see . uh , maybe we can talk about a couple other things briefly , just , uh , things that that we 've been chatting about but have n't made it into these meetings yet . so you 're coming up with your quals proposal , and , uh wan na just give a two three minute summary of what you 're planning on doing ? grad e: oh , um , two , three , it can be shorter than that . professor c: yeah . grad e: um . well , i 've i 've talked to some of you already . um , but i 'm , uh , looking into extending the work done by larry saul and john allen and uh mazin rahim . um , they they have a system that 's , uh , a multi - band , um , system but their multi - band is is a little different than the way that we 've been doing multi - band in the past , where um where we 've been @ @ { comment } uh taking um sub - band features and i training up these neural nets and on on phonetic targets , and then combining them some somehow down the line , um , they 're they 're taking sub - band features and , um , training up a detector that detects for , um , these phonetic features for example , um , he presents um , uh , a detector to detect sonorance . and so what what it basically is is , um it 's there 's at the lowest level , there it 's it 's an or ga i mean , it 's an and gate . so , uh , on each sub - band you have several independent tests , to test whether um , there 's the existence of sonorance in a sub - band . and then , um , it c it 's combined by a soft and gate . and at the at the higher level , for every if , um the higher level there 's a soft or gate . uh , so if if this detector detects um , the presence of of sonorance in any of the sub - bands , then the detect uh , the or gate at the top says , `` ok , well this frame has evidence of sonorance . `` phd a: what are what are some of the low level detectors that they use ? grad e: and these are all oh , ok . well , the low level detectors are logistic regressions . um , and the , uh professor c: so that , by the way , basically is a is one of the units in our in our our neural network . grad e: the one o professor c: so that 's all it is . it 's a sig it 's a sigmoid , grad e: yeah . professor c: uh , with weighted sum at the input , phd a: hmm . professor c: which you train by gradient descent . grad e: right . yeah , so he uses , um , an em algorithm to to um train up these um parameters for the logistic regression . professor c: well , actually , yeah , grad e: the professor c: so i was using em to get the targets . so so you have this this this and gate what we were calling an and gate , but it 's a product product rule thing at the output . and then he uses , uh , i u and then feeding into that are i 'm sorry , there 's it 's an or at the output , is n't it ? yeah , grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: so that 's the product . and then , um , then he has each of these and things . and , um , but so they 're little neural neural units . um , and , um , they have to have targets . and so the targets come from em . phd a: and so are each of these , low level detectors { comment } are they , uh are these something that you decide ahead of time , like `` i 'm going to look for this particular feature or i 'm going to look at this frequency , `` or what what what are they looking at ? grad e: um phd a: what are their inputs ? grad e: uh right , so the ok , so at each for each sub - band { comment } there are basically , uh , several measures of snr and and correlation . phd a: ah , ok , ok . grad e: um , um and he said there 's like twenty of these per per sub - band . um , and for for every s every sub - band , e you you just pick ahead of time , um , `` i 'm going to have like five i independent logistic tests . `` phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: and you initialize these parameters , um , in some some way and use em to come up with your training targets for a for the the low - level detectors . phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: and then , once you get that done , you you you train the whole whole thing on maximum likelihood . um , and h he shows that using this this method to detect sonorance is it 's very robust compared to , um to typical , uh , full - band gaussian mixtures um estimations of of sonorance . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad e: and , uh so so that 's just that 's just one detector . so you can imagine building many of these detectors on different features . you get enough of these detectors together , um , then you have enough information to do , um , higher level discrimination , for example , discriminating between phones phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: and then you keep working your way up until you you build a full recognizer . phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: so , um , that 's that 's the direction which i 'm i 'm thinking about going in my quals . phd a: cool . professor c: you know , it has a number of properties that i really liked . i mean , one is the going towards , um , using narrow band information for , uh , ph phonetic features of some sort rather than just , uh , immediately going for the the typical sound units . phd a: right . professor c: another thing i like about it is that you t this thing is going to be trained explicitly trained for a product of errors rule , which is what , uh , allen keeps pointing out that fletcher observed in the twenties , phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , for people listening to narrow band stuff . that 's friday 's talk , by the way . and then , um , uh , the third thing i like about it is , uh , and we 've played around with this in a different kind of way a little bit but it has n't been our dominant way of of operating anything , um , this issue of where the targets come from . so in our case when we 've been training it multi - band things , the way we get the targets for the individual bands is , uh , that we get the phonetic label for the sound there phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and we say , `` ok , we train every `` what this is saying is , ok , that 's maybe what our ultimate goal is or not ultimate but penultimate goal is getting these these small sound units . but but , um , along the way how much should we , uh uh , what should we be training these intermediate things for ? i mean , because , uh , we do n't know uh , that this is a particularly good feature . i mean , there 's no way , uh someone in the audience yesterday was asking , `` well could n't you have people go through and mark the individual bands and say where the where it was sonorant or not ? `` phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: but , you know , i think having a bunch of people listening to critical band wide , uh , chunks of speech trying to determine whether { comment } i think it 'd be impossible . grad e: ouch . professor c: it 's all gon na sound like like sine waves to you , more or less . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: i mean well not i mean , it 's g all g narrow band uh , i i m i think it 's very hard for someone to to a person to make that determination . so , um , um , we do n't really know how those should be labeled . it could sh be that you should , um , not be paying that much attention to , uh , certain bands for certain sounds , uh , in order to get the best result . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: so , um , what we have been doing there , just sort of mixing it all together , is certainly much much cruder than that . we trained these things up on the on the , uh the final label . now we have i guess done experiments you 've probably done stuff where you have , um , done separate , uh , viterbis on the different grad e: yeah . forced alignment on the sub - band labels ? professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah . professor c: you 've done that . did did that help at all ? grad e: um , it helps for one or t one iteration but um , anything after that it does n't help . professor c: so so that may or may t it that aspect of what he 's doing may or may not be helpful because in a sense that 's the same sort of thing . you 're taking global information and determining what you how you should but this is this is , uh , i th i think a little more direct . phd a: how did they measure the performance of their detector ? professor c: and well , he 's look he 's just actually looking at , uh , the confusions between sonorant and non - sonorant . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: so he has n't applied it to recognition or if he did he did n't talk about it . it 's it 's just and one of the concerns in the audience , actually , was that that , um , the , uh , uh he he did a comparison to , uh , you know , our old foil , the the nasty old standard recognizer with mel mel filter bank at the front , and h m ms , and and so forth . and , um , it did n't do nearly as well , especially in in noise . but the one of the good questions in the audience was , well , yeah , but that was n't trained for that . i mean , this use of a very smooth , uh , spectral envelope is something that , you know , has evolved as being generally a good thing for speech recognition but if you knew that what you were gon na do is detect sonorants or not so sonorants and non - sonorants is is is almost like voiced - unvoiced , except i guess that the voiced stops are are also called `` obstruents `` . uh , so it 's it 's uh , but with the exception of the stops i guess it 's pretty much the same as voiced - unvoiced , phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: right ? so so um . so , um , if you knew you were doing that , if you were doing something say for a a , uh a a vocoder , you would n't use the same kind of features . you would use something that was sensitive to the periodicity and and not just the envelope . uh , and so in that sense it was an unfair test . um , so i think that the questioner was right . it it was in that sense an unfair test . nonetheless , it was one that was interesting because , uh , this is what we are actually using for speech recognition , these smooth envelopes . and this says that perhaps even , you know , trying to use them in the best way that we can , that that that we ordinarily do , with , you know , gaussian mixtures and h m ms { comment } and so forth , you you do n't , uh , actually do that well on determining whether something is sonorant or not . phd a: did n't they professor c: which means you 're gon na make errors between similar sounds that are son sonorant or obstruent . phd a: did n't they also do some kind of an oracle experiment where they said `` if we could detect the sonorants perfectly and then show how it would improve speech recognition ? i thought i remember hearing about an experiment like that . professor c: the - these same people ? phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: i do n't remember that . phd a: hmm . professor c: that would that 's you 're right , that 's exactly the question to follow up this discussion , is suppose you did that , uh , got that right . um , yeah . phd a: hmm . phd b: what could be the other low level detectors , i mean , for { comment } other kind of features , or ? in addition to detecting sonorants or ? th - that 's what you want to to to go for also grad e: um phd b: or ? grad e: what t oh , build other other detectors on different phonetic features ? phd b: other low level detectors ? yeah . grad e: um , uh let 's see , um , yeah , i d i do n't know . e um , um , i mean , w easiest thing would be to go go do some voicing stuff but that 's very similar to sonorance . phd b: mm - hmm . grad e: um , phd a: when we when we talked with john ohala the other day we made a list of some of the things that w grad e: yeah . phd a: like frication , grad e: oh ! ok . phd a: abrupt closure , grad e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: r - coloring , nasality , voicing uh . professor c: yeah , so there 's a half dozen like that that are grad e: yeah , nasality . professor c: now this was coming at it from a different angle but maybe it 's a good way to start . uh , these are things which , uh , john felt that a a , uh a human annotator would be able to reliably mark . so the sort of things he felt would be difficult for a human annotator to reliably mark would be tongue position kinds of things . grad e: oh , ok . placing stuff , phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah . phd a: there 's also things like stress . professor c: uh phd a: you can look at stress . professor c: but stress does n't , uh , fit in this thing of coming up with features that will distinguish words from one another , grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: right ? it 's a it 's a good thing to mark and will probably help us ultimate with recognition phd a: yeah , there 's a few cases where it can like permit { comment } and permit . professor c: but phd a: but that 's not very common in english . in other languages it 's more uh , important . professor c: well , yeah , but i either case you 'd write permit , right ? so you 'd get the word right . phd a: no , i 'm saying , i i e i thought you were saying that stress does n't help you distinguish between words . professor c: um , phd a: oh , i see what you 're saying . as long as you get the sequence , professor c: we 're g if we 're doing if we 're talking about transcription as opposed to something else phd a: right ? yeah . yeah , yeah , yeah . yeah . right . professor c: yeah . phd a: so where it could help is maybe at a higher level . yeah . professor c: right . grad e: like a understanding application . phd a: understanding , yeah . exactly . professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah . professor c: but that 's this afternoon 's meeting . yeah . we do n't understand anything in this meeting . yeah , so that 's yeah , that 's , you know , a neat neat thing and and , uh so . grad e: s so , um , ohala 's going to help do these , uh transcriptions of the meeting data ? phd a: uh , well i do n't know . we d we sort of did n't get that far . um , we just talked about some possible features that could be marked by humans and , um , grad e: hmm . phd a: because of having maybe some extra transcriber time we thought we could go through and mark some portion of the data for that . and , uh professor c: yeah , grad e: hmm . professor c: i mean , that 's not an immediate problem , that we do n't immediately have a lot of extra transcriber time . phd a: yeah , right . professor c: but but , uh , in the long term i guess chuck is gon na continue the dialogue with john and and , uh , and , we 'll we 'll end up doing some i think . phd a: i 'm definitely interested in this area , too , f uh , acoustic feature stuff . professor c: uh - huh . grad e: ok . phd a: so . professor c: yeah , i think it 's an interesting interesting way to go . grad e: cool . professor c: um , i say it like `` said - int `` . i think it has a number of good things . um , so , uh , y you want to talk maybe a c two or three minutes about what we 've been talking about today and other days ? grad f: ri yeah , ok , so , um , we 're interested in , um , methods for far mike speech recognition , um , mainly , uh , methods that deal with the reverberation in the far mike signal . so , um , one approach would be , um , say msg and plp , like was used in aurora one and , um , there are other approaches which actually attempt to remove the reverberation , instead of being robust to it like msg . and so we 're interested in , um , comparing the performance of um , a robust approach like msg with these , um , speech enhancement or de - reverber de - reverberation approaches . phd b: mm - hmm . grad f: and , um , it looks like we 're gon na use the meeting recorder digits data for that . phd b: and the de - reverberation algorithm , do you have can you give some more details on this or ? does it use one microphone ? grad f: o o phd b: several microphones ? does it ? grad f: ok , well , um , there was something that was done by , um , a guy named carlos , i forget his last name , { comment } who worked with hynek , who , um , professor c: avendano . grad f: ok . professor c: yeah . grad f: who , um , phd b: mm - hmm . grad f: um , it was like rasta in the sense that of it was , um , de - convolution by filtering um , except he used a longer time window , phd b: mm - hmm . grad f: like a second maybe . and the reason for that is rasta 's time window is too short to , um include the whole , um , reverberation um , i do n't know what you call it the reverberation response . i if you see wh if you see what i mean . the reverberation filter from my mouth to that mike is like it 's t got it 's too long in the in the time domain for the um for the rasta filtering to take care of it . and , um , then there are a couple of other speech enhancement approaches which have n't been tried for speech recognition yet but have just been tried for enhancement , which , um , have the assumption that um , you can do lpc um analysis of th of the signal you get at the far microphone and the , um , all pole filter that you get out of that should be good . it 's just the , um , excitation signal { comment } that is going to be distorted by the reverberation and so you can try and reconstruct a better excitation signal and , um , feed that through the i um , all pole filter and get enhanced speech with reverberation reduced . phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: there 's also this , uh , um , uh , echo cancellation stuff that we 've sort of been chasing , so , uh we have , uh and when we 're saying these digits now we do have a close microphone signal and then there 's the distant microphone signal . and you could as a kind of baseline say , `` ok , given that we have both of these , uh , we should be able to do , uh , a cancellation . `` so that , uh , um , we we , uh , essentially identify the system in between the linear time invariant system between the microphones and and and and re and invert it , uh , or or cancel it out to to some some reasonable approximation phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: through one method or another . uh , that 's not a practical thing , uh , if you have a distant mike , you do n't have a close mike ordinarily , but we thought that might make also might make a good baseline . uh , it still wo n't be perfect because there 's noise . uh , but and then there are s uh , there are single microphone methods that i think people have done for , uh for this kind of de - reverberation . do y do you know any references to any ? cuz i i w i was w w i i lead him down a a bad path on that . phd b: uh , i g i guess i guess when people are working with single microphones , they are more trying to do professor c: but . phd b: well , not not very well , there is the avendano work , professor c: right . phd b: but also trying to mmm , uh trying to f t find the de - convolution filter but in the um not in the time domain but in the uh the stream of features uh i guess . well , @ @ { comment } there there 's someone working on this on i in mons professor c: yeah , ok . phd b: so perhaps , yeah , we should try t to he 's working on this , on trying to professor c: yeah . phd b: on re reverberation , um professor c: the first paper on this is gon na have great references , i can tell already . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: it 's always good to have references , especially when reviewers read it or or one of the authors and , feel they 'll `` you 're ok , you 've r you cited me . `` phd b: so , yeah . well , he did echo cancellation and he did some fancier things like , uh , uh , training different network on different reverberation conditions and then trying to find the best one , but . well . professor c: yeah . phd b: yeah . professor c: the oth the other thing , uh , that dave was talking about earlier was , uh , uh , multiple mike things , uh , where they 're all distant . so , um , i mean , there 's there 's all this work on arrays , but the other thing is , uh , what can we do that 's cleverer that can take some advantage of only two mikes , uh , particularly if there 's an obstruction between them , as we as we have over there . phd b: if there is ? professor c: an obstruction between them . phd b: ah , yeah . professor c: it creates a shadow which is is helpful . it 's part of why you have such good directionality with , with two ears phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: even though they 're not several feet apart . for most for most people 's heads . phd a: that could help though . professor c: so that yeah , the the head , in the way , is really that 's what it 's for . it 's basically , phd a: that 's what the head 's for ? to separate the ears ? professor c: yeah , it 's to separate the ears . that 's right , yeah . yeah . uh , so . anyway , o k . uh , i think that 's that 's all we have this week . grad e: oh . professor c: and , uh , i think it 's digit time . phd a: actually the , um for some reason the digit forms are blank . professor c: yeah ? phd a: uh , i think th that may be due to the fact that { comment } adam ran out of digits , { comment } uh , and did n't have time to regenerate any . professor c: oh ! oh ! i guess it 's well there 's no real reason to write our names on here then , phd a: yeah , if you want to put your credit card numbers and , uh professor c: is there ? grad e: oh , no ? professor c: or do did any do we need the names for the other stuff , phd a: uh , yeah , i do need your names and and the time , and all that , professor c: or ? oh , ok . phd a: cuz we put that into the `` key `` files . professor c: oh , ok . phd a: um . but w professor c: ok . phd a: that 's why we have the forms , uh , even if there are no digits . professor c: ok , yeah , i did n't notice this . i 'm sitting here and i was i was about to read them too . it 's a , uh , blank sheet of paper . phd a: so i guess we 're we 're done . professor c: yeah , yeah , i 'll do my credit card number later . ok .

the meeting was about various approaches that the team could pursue for further research . the team initially discussed the delay between the frequency bands which was causing problems in the model deployment . they then discussed how spectral subtraction could help various tasks . the meeting ended with more ideas on improving the model , like directionality of voice and looking at smaller units of sound in recordings .

summarize the discussion about fir filters and dealing with additive noise </s> phd a: ok , we 're on . professor c: ok , what are we talking about today ? phd b: i do n't know . do you have news from the conference talk ? uh , that was programmed for yesterday i guess . professor c: uh phd d: yesterday professor c: uh phd d: yesterday morning on video conference . professor c: uh , phd b: well professor c: oh , i 'm sorry . grad e: oh . conference call . professor c: i know now i know what you 're talking about . no , nobody 's told me anything . phd b: alright . phd a: oh , this was the , uh , talk where they were supposed to try to decide phd b: to to decide what to do , phd a: ah , right . phd b: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor c: yeah . no , that would have been a good thing to find out before this meeting , that 's . no , i have no i have no idea . um , uh , so i mean , let 's let 's assume for right now that we 're just kind of plugging on ahead , phd b: yeah . professor c: because even if they tell us that , uh , the rules are different , uh , we 're still interested in doing what we 're doing . so what are you doing ? phd b: mm - hmm . uh , well , we 've a little bit worked on trying to see , uh , what were the bugs and the problem with the latencies . phd d: to improve phd b: so , we took first we took the lda filters and , uh , we designed new filters , using uh recursive filters actually . professor c: so when you say `` we `` , is that something sunil is doing or is that ? phd b: i 'm sorry ? professor c: who is doing that ? phd b: uh , us . yeah . professor c: oh , oh . oh , ok . phd b: so we took the filters the fir filters and we { comment } designed , uh , iir filters that have the same frequency response . phd d: but professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: well , similar , but that have shorter delays . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: so they had two filters , one for the low frequency bands and another for the high frequency bands . and so we redesigned two filters . and the low frequency band has sixty - four milliseconds of delay , and the high frequency band filter has something like eleven milliseconds compared to the two hundred milliseconds of the iir filters . but it 's not yet test . so we have the filters but we still have to implement a routine that does recursive filtering professor c: ok . phd b: and professor c: you you had a discussion with sunil about this though ? phd b: no . no . professor c: uh - huh . yeah , you should talk with him . phd b: yeah , yeah . professor c: yeah . no , i mean , because the the the the whole problem that happened before was coordination , phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: right ? so so you need to discuss with him what we 're doing , phd b: yeah . professor c: uh , cuz they could be doing the same thing and or something . phd b: mm - hmm . uh , i yeah , i do n't know if th that 's what they were trying to they were trying to do something different like taking , uh well , using filter that takes only a past professor c: right . phd b: and this is just a little bit different . but i will i will send him an email and tell him exactly what we are doing , so . professor c: yeah , yeah . um , phd b: um , professor c: i mean we just we just have to be in contact more . i think that the the fact that we we did that with had that thing with the latencies was indicative of the fact that there was n't enough communication . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: so . phd b: alright . professor c: ok . phd b: um , yeah . well , there is w one , um , remark about these filters , that they do n't have a linear phase . so , professor c: right . phd b: well , i do n't know , perhaps it perhaps it does n't hurt because the phase is almost linear but . um , and so , yeah , for the delay i gave you here , it 's it 's , uh , computed on the five hertz modulation frequency , which is the mmm , well , the most important for speech so . uh , this is the first thing . professor c: so that would be , uh , a reduction of a hundred and thirty - six milliseconds , phd d: the low f f phd b: yeah . professor c: which , uh what was the total we ended up with through the whole system ? phd b: three hundred and thirty . professor c: so that would be within ? phd b: yeah , but there are other points actually , uh , which will perhaps add some more delay . is that some other other stuff in the process were perhaps not very um perf well , not very correct , like the downsampling which w was simply dropping frames . professor c: yeah . phd b: um , so we will try also to add a nice downsampling having a filter that that professor c: uh - huh . phd b: well , a low - pass filter at at twenty - five hertz . uh , because wh when when we look at the lda filters , well , they are basically low - pass but they leave a lot of what 's above twenty - five hertz . professor c: yeah . phd b: um , and so , yeah , this will be another filter which would add ten milliseconds again . professor c: yeah . phd b: um , yeah , and then there 's a third thing , is that , um , basically the way on - line normalization was done uh , is just using this recursion on on the um , um , on the feature stream , professor c: yeah . phd b: and but this is a filter , so it has also a delay . uh , and when we look at this filter actually it has a delay of eighty - five milliseconds . so if we professor c: eighty - five . phd b: yeah . if we want to be very correct , so if we want to the estimation of the mean t t to to be well , the right estimation of the mean , we have to t to take eighty - five milliseconds in the future . mmm . professor c: hmm ! that 's a little bit of a problem . phd b: yeah . um , but , well , when we add up everything it 's it will be alright . we would be at six so , sixty - five , plus ten , plus for the downsampling , plus eighty - five for the on - line normalization . so it 's professor c: uh , phd b: plus plus eighty for the neural net and pca . professor c: yeah , but then there 's oh . phd b: so it would be around two hundred and forty so , well , professor c: just just barely in there . phd b: plus plus the frames , but it 's ok . phd a: what 's the allowable ? professor c: two - fifty , unless they changed the rules . phd b: hmm . professor c: which there is there 's some discussion of . phd a: what were they thinking of changing it to ? professor c: but phd b: yeah . professor c: uh , well the people who had very low latency want it to be low uh , very very very narrow , uh , latency bound . and the people who have longer latency do n't . so . phd a: huh . phd b: so , yeah . professor c: unfortunately we 're the main ones with long latency , but phd a: ah ! professor c: but , uh , phd b: yeah , and basically the best proposal had something like thirty or forty milliseconds of latency . professor c: you know , it 's yeah . phd b: so . well . professor c: yeah , so they were basically i mean , they were more or less trading computation for performance and we were , uh , trading latency for performance . and they were dealing with noise explicitly and we were n't , and so i think of it as complementary , that if we can put the phd a: think of it as what ? professor c: complementary . phd a: hmm . professor c: i think the best systems so , uh , everything that we did in in a way it was it was just adamantly insisting on going in with a brain damaged system , which is something actually , we 've done a lot over the last thirteen years . uh , which is we say , well this is the way we should do it . and then we do it . and then someone else does something that 's straight forward . so , w th w this was a test that largely had additive noise and we did we adde did absolutely nothing explicitly to handle ad additive noise . phd a: right . professor c: we just , uh , you know , trained up systems to be more discriminant . and , uh , we did this , uh , rasta - like filtering which was done in the log domain and was tending to handle convolutional noise . we did we actually did nothing about additive noise . so , um , the , uh , spectral sub subtraction schemes a couple places did seem to seem to do a nice job . and so , uh , we 're talking about putting putting some of that in while still keeping some of our stuff . i think you should be able to end up with a system that 's better than both but clearly the way that we 're operating for this other stuff does involved some latency to to get rid of most of that latency . to get down to forty or fifty milliseconds we 'd have to throw out most of what we 're doing . and and , uh , i do n't think there 's any good reason for it in the application actually . i mean , you 're you 're you 're speaking to a recognizer on a remote server and , uh , having a a a quarter second for some processing to clean it up . it does n't seem like it 's that big a deal . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: these are n't large vocabulary things so the decoder should n't take a really long time , and . phd a: and i do n't think anybody 's gon na notice the difference between a quarter of a second of latency and thirty milliseconds of latency . professor c: so . no . what what does wa was your experience when you were doing this stuff with , uh , the the the surgical , uh , uh , microscopes and so forth . um , how long was it from when somebody , uh , finished an utterance to when , uh , something started happening ? phd a: um , we had a silence detector , so we would look for the end of an utterance based on the silence detector . professor c: mm - hmm . phd a: and i i ca n't remember now off the top of my head how many frames of silence we had to detect before we would declare it to be the end of an utterance . professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: um , but it was , uh , i would say it was probably around the order of two hundred and fifty milliseconds . professor c: yeah , and that 's when you 'd start doing things . phd a: yeah , we did the back trace at that point to get the answer . professor c: yeah . of course that did n't take too long at that point . phd a: no , no it was pretty quick . professor c: yeah . phd a: so professor c: yeah , so you you so you had a phd a: this w professor c: so you had a a quarter second delay before , uh , plus some little processing time , phd a: right . professor c: and then the the microscope would start moving or something . phd a: right . professor c: yeah . phd a: right . professor c: and there 's physical inertia there , so probably the the motion itself was all phd a: and it felt to , uh , the users that it was instantaneous . i mean , as fast as talking to a person . it th i do n't think anybody ever complained about the delay . professor c: yeah , so you would think as long as it 's under half a second or something . phd a: yeah . professor c: uh , i 'm not an expert on that phd a: yeah . professor c: but . phd a: i do n't remember the exact numbers but it was something like that . professor c: yeah . phd a: i do n't think you can really tell . a person i do n't think a person can tell the difference between , uh , you know , a quarter of a second and a hundred milliseconds , and i 'm not even sure if we can tell the difference between a quarter of a second and half a second . professor c: yeah . phd a: i mean it just it feels so quick . professor c: yeah . i mean , basically if you yeah , if you said , uh , um , `` what 's the , uh , uh what 's the shortest route to the opera ? `` and it took half a second to get back to you , phd a: yeah . professor c: i mean , it would be f i mean , it might even be too abrupt . you might have to put in a s a s a delay . phd a: yeah . i mean , it may feel different than talking to a person professor c: yeah . phd a: because when we talk to each other we tend to step on each other 's utterances . so like if i 'm asking you a question , you may start answering before i 'm even done . professor c: yeah . phd a: so it it would probably feel different professor c: right . phd a: but i do n't think it would feel slow . professor c: right . well , anyway , i mean , i think we could cut we know what else , we could cut down on the neural net time by by , uh , playing around a little bit , going more into the past , or something like that . we t we talked about that . phd a: so is the latency from the neural net caused by how far ahead you 're looking ? professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: and there 's also well , there 's the neural net and there 's also this , uh , uh , multi - frame , uh , uh , klt . phd a: was n't there was it in the , uh , recurrent neural nets where they were n't looking ahead at all ? professor c: they were n't looking ahead much . they p they looked ahead a little bit . phd a: a little bit . ok . professor c: yeah . yeah , i mean , you could do this with a recurrent net . and and then but you also could just , um , i mean , we have n't experimented with this but i imagine you could , um , uh , predict a , uh um , a label , uh , from more in the past than in than than in the future . i mean , we 've d we 've done some stuff with that before . i think it it works ok . phd b: mm - hmm . phd a: we 've always had usually we used the symmetric windows professor c: so . phd a: but i do n't think professor c: yeah , but we 've but we played a little bit with with asymmetric , guys . phd a: yeah . professor c: you can do it . so . so , that 's what that 's what you 're busy with , s messing around with this , phd b: uh , yeah . professor c: yeah . and , uh , phd d: also we were thinking to to , uh , apply the eh , spectral subtraction from ericsson phd b: yeah . professor c: uh - huh . phd d: and to to change the contextual klt for lda . phd a: change the what ? phd d: the contextual klt . phd a: i 'm missing that last word . context professor c: k klt . phd a: klt . phd d: klt grad e: oh . klt . phd a: oh , klt . professor c: mm - hmm . phd a: uh - huh . phd d: klt , i 'm sorry . uh , to change and use lda discriminative . phd b: yeah . professor c: uh - huh . phd d: but i do n't know . professor c: uh , phd a: what is the advantage of that ? phd d: uh phd b: well , it 's that by the for the moment we have , uh , something that 's discriminant and nonlinear . and the other is linear but it 's not discriminant at all . well , it 's it 's a linear transformation , that uh professor c: so at least just to understand maybe what the difference was between how much you were getting from just putting the frames together and how much you 're getting from the discriminative , what the nonlinearity does for you or does n't do for you . just to understand it a little better i guess . phd b: mmm . well uh yeah . actually what we want to do , perhaps it 's to replace to to have something that 's discriminant but linear , also . and to see if it if it improves ov over over the non - discriminant linear transformation . phd a: hmm . phd b: and if the neural net is better than this or , well . so . professor c: yeah , well , that 's what i meant , is to see whether whether it having the neural net really buys you anything . phd b: ye mmm . professor c: uh , i mean , it doe did look like it buys you something over just the klt . phd b: yeah . professor c: but maybe it 's just the discrimination and and maybe yeah , maybe the nonlinear discrimination is n't necessary . phd d: s maybe . phd b: yeah . mm - hmm . professor c: could be . phd d: maybe . professor c: good good to know . but the other part you were saying was the spectral subtraction , so you just kind of , uh phd b: yeah . professor c: at what stage do you do that ? do you you 're doing that , um ? phd b: so it would be on the um on on the mel frequency bands , phd d: we was think phd b: so . yeah , be before everything . professor c: ok , phd d: yeah , professor c: so just do that on the mel f phd d: we no nnn we we was thinking to do before after vad or phd b: yeah , phd d: oh , { comment } we do n't know exactly when it 's better . phd b: um phd d: before after vad or professor c: so so you know that that that the way that they 're phd d: and then phd b: um . professor c: uh , one thing that would be no good to find out about from this conference call is that what they were talking about , what they 're proposing doing , was having a third party , um , run a good vad , and and determine boundaries . phd d: yeah . professor c: and then given those boundaries , then have everybody do the recognition . phd d: begin to work . professor c: the reason for that was that , um , uh if some one p one group put in the vad and another did n't , uh , or one had a better vad than the other since that they 're not viewing that as being part of the the task , and that any any manufacturer would put a bunch of effort into having some s kind of good speech - silence detection . it still would n't be perfect but i mean , e the argument was `` let 's not have that be part of this test . `` `` let 's let 's separate that out . `` and so , uh , i guess they argued about that yesterday and , yeah , i 'm sorry , i do n't do n't know the answer but we should find out . i 'm sure we 'll find out soon what they , uh what they decided . so , uh yeah , so there 's the question of the vad but otherwise it 's it 's on the the , uh the mel fil filter bank , uh , energies i guess ? phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: mmm , yeah . professor c: you do doing the ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: and you 're you 're subtracting in the in the in the i guess it 's power power domain , uh , or or magnitude domain . probably power domain , right ? phd b: i guess it 's power domain , yeah . professor c: why phd b: i do n't remember exactly . professor c: yeah , phd d: i do n't remember . phd b: but yeah , so it 's before everything else , professor c: yep . phd b: and professor c: i mean , if you look at the theory , it 's it should be in the power domain but but , uh , i 've seen implementations where people do it in the magnitude domain phd b: yeah . professor c: and phd b: mmm . professor c: i have asked people why and they shrug their shoulders and say , `` oh , it works . `` so . phd b: yeah . professor c: uh , and there 's this i guess there 's this mysterious i mean people who do this a lot i guess have developed little tricks of the trade . i mean , there 's there 's this , um you do n't just subtract the the estimate of the noise spectrum . you subtract th that times phd b: a little bit more and yeah . professor c: or or less , or phd a: really ? phd b: yeah . phd a: huh ! professor c: yeah . phd b: and generated this this , professor c: uh . phd b: um , so you have the estimation of the power spectra of the noise , and you multiply this by a factor which is depend dependent on the snr . so . well . phd d: hmm , maybe . phd a: hmm ! phd b: when the speech lev when the signal level is more important , compared to this noise level , the coefficient is small , and around one . but when the power le the s signal level is uh small compared to the noise level , the coefficient is more important . and this reduce actually the music musical noise , phd a: oh ! phd b: uh which is more important during silence portions , phd a: uh - huh . phd b: when the s the energy 's small . phd a: hmm ! phd b: so there are tricks like this but , mmm . phd a: hmm ! professor c: yeah . phd b: yeah . professor c: so . phd a: is the estimate of the noise spectrum a running estimate ? or phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd b: yeah . professor c: well , that 's i mean , that 's what differs from different different tasks and different s uh , spectral subtraction methods . phd a: hmm ! professor c: i mean , if if you have , uh , fair assurance that , uh , the noise is is quite stationary , then the smartest thing to do is use as much data as possible to estimate the noise , get a much better estimate , and subtract it off . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: but if it 's varying at all , which is gon na be the case for almost any real situation , you have to do it on - line , uh , with some forgetting factor or something . phd a: so do you is there some long window that extends into the past over which you calculate the average ? professor c: well , there 's a lot of different ways of computing the noise spectrum . so one of the things that , uh , hans - guenter hirsch did , uh and pas and other people actually , he 's he was n't the only one i guess , was to , uh , take some period of of of speech and in each band , uh , develop a histogram . so , to get a decent histogram of these energies takes at least a few seconds really . but , uh i mean you can do it with a smaller amount but it 's pretty rough . and , um , in fact i think the nist standard method of determining signal - to - noise ratio is based on this . phd a: a couple seconds ? professor c: so no , no , it 's based on this kind of method , phd a: hmm . professor c: this histogram method . so you have a histogram . now , if you have signal and you have noise , you basically have these two bumps in the histogram , which you could approximate as two gaussians . phd a: but wh do n't they overlap sometimes ? professor c: oh , yeah . phd a: ok . professor c: so you have a mixture of two gaussians . phd a: yeah . professor c: right ? and you can use em to figure out what it is . you know . phd a: yeah . professor c: so so basically now you have this mixture of two gaussians , you you n know what they are , and , uh i mean , sorry , you estimate what they are , and , uh , so this gives you what the signal is and what the noise e energy is in that band in the spectrum . and then you look over the whole thing and now you have a noise spectrum . so , uh , hans - guenter hirsch and others have used that kind of method . and the other thing to do is which is sort of more trivial and obvious { comment } is to , uh , uh , determine through magical means that that , uh , there 's no speech in some period , and then see what the spectrum is . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , but , you know , it 's that that that 's tricky to do . it has mistakes . uh , and if you 've got enough time , uh , this other method appears to be somewhat more reliable . uh , a variant on that for just determining signal - to - noise ratio is to just , uh you can do a w a uh an iterative thing , em - like thing , to determine means only . i guess it is em still , but just just determine the means only . do n't worry about the variances . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and then you just use those mean values as being the the , uh uh signal - to - noise ratio in that band . phd a: but what is the it seems like this kind of thing could add to the latency . i mean , depending on where the window was that you used to calculate the signal - to - noise ratio . phd b: yeah , sure . but mmm . professor c: not necessarily . cuz if you do n't look into the future , right ? phd a: ok , well that i guess that was my question , professor c: if you just yeah phd a: yeah . professor c: i mean , if you just if you you , uh a at the beginning you have some phd a: guess . professor c: esti some guess and and , uh , uh phd b: yeah , but it professor c: it 's an interesting question . i wonder how they did do it ? phd b: actually , it 's a mmm if - if you want to have a good estimation on non - stationary noise you have to look in the in the future . i mean , if you take your window and build your histogram in this window , um , what you can expect is to have an estimation of th of the noise in in the middle of the window , not at the end . so professor c: well , yeah , phd b: the but but people professor c: but what does what what what does alcatel do ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: and and france telecom . phd b: the they just look in the past . i guess it works because the noise are , uh pret uh , almost stationary professor c: pretty stationary . grad e: pretty stationary , phd b: but , um professor c: well , the thing , e e e e grad e: yeah . professor c: yeah , y i mean , you 're talking about non - stationary noise but i think that spectral subtraction is rarely is is not gon na work really well for for non - stationary noise , phd b: well , if y if you have a good estimation of the noise , professor c: you know ? phd b: yeah , because well it it has to work . professor c: but it 's hard to phd b: i professor c: but that 's hard to do . phd b: yeah , that 's hard to do . yeah . professor c: yeah . so so i think that that what what is wh what 's more common is that you 're going to be helped with r slowly varying or stationary noise . phd b: but mm - hmm . professor c: that 's what spectral subtraction will help with , practically speaking . phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: if it varies a lot , to get a if if to get a good estimate you need a few seconds of speech , even if it 's centered , right ? phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: if you need a few seconds to get a decent estimate but it 's changed a lot in a few seconds , then it , you know , i it 's kind of a problem . phd b: yeah . professor c: i mean , imagine e five hertz is the middle of the of the speech modulation spectrum , phd b: mmm . professor c: right ? so imagine a jack hammer going at five hertz . phd b: yeah , that 's professor c: i mean , good good luck . so , phd b: so in this case , yeah , sure , you can not professor c: yeah . phd b: but i think y um , hirsch does experiment with windows of like between five hundred milliseconds and one second . and well , five hundred wa was not so bad . i mean and he worked on non - stationary noises , like noise modulated with well , wi with amplitude modulations and things like that , phd a: were his , uh , windows centered around the phd b: and but um , yeah . well , i think yeah . well , in in the paper he showed that actually the estimation of the noise is is delayed . well , it 's there is you you have to center the window , yeah . professor c: yeah . phd b: mmm . professor c: no , i understand it 's better to do but i just think that that , uh , for real noises wh what what 's most likely to happen is that there 'll be some things that are relatively stationary phd b: mmm . professor c: where you can use one or another spectral subtraction thing phd b: yeah . professor c: and other things where it 's not so stationary and i mean , you can always pick something that that falls between your methods , phd b: hmm . professor c: uh , uh , but i do n't know if , you know , if sinusoidally , uh , modul amplitude modulated noise is is sort of a big problem in in in practice . phd b: yeah . professor c: i think that it 's uh phd a: we could probably get a really good estimate of the noise if we just went to the noise files , and built the averages from them . professor c: yeah . well . phd b: what what do you mean ? professor c: just cheat you 're saying , cheat . phd b: but if the if the noise is stationary perhaps you do n't even need some kind of noise estimation algorithm . professor c: yeah . yeah . phd b: we just take th th th the beginning of the utterance and professor c: oh , yeah , sure . phd b: i i know p i do n't know if people tried this for aurora . phd d: it 's the same . phd b: well , everybody seems to use some kind of adaptive , well , scheme professor c: but but phd d: yeah . phd b: but , phd d: a dictionary . phd b: is it very useful professor c: you know , stationary phd a: very slow adaptation . phd b: and is the c phd a: th professor c: right , the word `` stationary `` is has a very precise statistical meaning . but , you know , in in signal - processing really what we 're talking about i think is things that change slowly , uh , compared with our our processing techniques . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: so if you 're driving along in a car i i would think that most of the time the nature of the noise is going to change relatively slowly . it 's not gon na stay absolute the same . if you if you check it out , uh , five minutes later you may be in a different part of the road phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: or whatever . but it 's it 's i i i using the local characteristics in time , is probably going to work pretty well . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: but you could get hurt a lot if you just took some something from the beginning of all the speech , of , you know , an hour of speech and then later phd b: yeah . professor c: uh , so they may be you know , may be overly , uh , complicated for for this test but but but , uh , i do n't know . but what you 're saying , you know , makes sense , though . i mean , if possible you should n't you should you should make it , uh , the center of the center of the window . but uh , we 're already having problems with these delay , uh delay issues . phd b: yeah , so . professor c: so , uh , we 'll have to figure ways without it . um , phd a: if they 're going to provide a , uh , voice activity detector that will tell you the boundaries of the speech , then , could n't you just go outside those boundaries and do your estimate there ? professor c: oh , yeah . you bet . yeah . so i i imagine that 's what they 're doing , right ? is they 're they 're probably looking in nonspeech sections and getting some , uh phd b: yeah , they have some kind of threshold on on the previous estimate , and so . yeah . i think . yeah , i think ericsson used this kind of threshold . yeah , so , they h they have an estimate of the noise level and they put a threshold like six or ten db above , and what 's under this threshold is used to update the estimate . is is that right phd d: yeah . phd b: or ? phd d: i think so . phd b: so it 's it 's phd d: i have not here the proposal . phd b: yeah . it 's like saying what 's under the threshold is silence , professor c: does france telecom do this phd b: and grad e: hmm . professor c: does france telecom do th do the same thing ? more or less ? phd b: i d i y you know , perhaps ? phd d: no . i do i have not here the proposal . professor c: ok . um , ok , if we 're we 're done done with that , uh , let 's see . uh , maybe we can talk about a couple other things briefly , just , uh , things that that we 've been chatting about but have n't made it into these meetings yet . so you 're coming up with your quals proposal , and , uh wan na just give a two three minute summary of what you 're planning on doing ? grad e: oh , um , two , three , it can be shorter than that . professor c: yeah . grad e: um . well , i 've i 've talked to some of you already . um , but i 'm , uh , looking into extending the work done by larry saul and john allen and uh mazin rahim . um , they they have a system that 's , uh , a multi - band , um , system but their multi - band is is a little different than the way that we 've been doing multi - band in the past , where um where we 've been @ @ { comment } uh taking um sub - band features and i training up these neural nets and on on phonetic targets , and then combining them some somehow down the line , um , they 're they 're taking sub - band features and , um , training up a detector that detects for , um , these phonetic features for example , um , he presents um , uh , a detector to detect sonorance . and so what what it basically is is , um it 's there 's at the lowest level , there it 's it 's an or ga i mean , it 's an and gate . so , uh , on each sub - band you have several independent tests , to test whether um , there 's the existence of sonorance in a sub - band . and then , um , it c it 's combined by a soft and gate . and at the at the higher level , for every if , um the higher level there 's a soft or gate . uh , so if if this detector detects um , the presence of of sonorance in any of the sub - bands , then the detect uh , the or gate at the top says , `` ok , well this frame has evidence of sonorance . `` phd a: what are what are some of the low level detectors that they use ? grad e: and these are all oh , ok . well , the low level detectors are logistic regressions . um , and the , uh professor c: so that , by the way , basically is a is one of the units in our in our our neural network . grad e: the one o professor c: so that 's all it is . it 's a sig it 's a sigmoid , grad e: yeah . professor c: uh , with weighted sum at the input , phd a: hmm . professor c: which you train by gradient descent . grad e: right . yeah , so he uses , um , an em algorithm to to um train up these um parameters for the logistic regression . professor c: well , actually , yeah , grad e: the professor c: so i was using em to get the targets . so so you have this this this and gate what we were calling an and gate , but it 's a product product rule thing at the output . and then he uses , uh , i u and then feeding into that are i 'm sorry , there 's it 's an or at the output , is n't it ? yeah , grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: so that 's the product . and then , um , then he has each of these and things . and , um , but so they 're little neural neural units . um , and , um , they have to have targets . and so the targets come from em . phd a: and so are each of these , low level detectors { comment } are they , uh are these something that you decide ahead of time , like `` i 'm going to look for this particular feature or i 'm going to look at this frequency , `` or what what what are they looking at ? grad e: um phd a: what are their inputs ? grad e: uh right , so the ok , so at each for each sub - band { comment } there are basically , uh , several measures of snr and and correlation . phd a: ah , ok , ok . grad e: um , um and he said there 's like twenty of these per per sub - band . um , and for for every s every sub - band , e you you just pick ahead of time , um , `` i 'm going to have like five i independent logistic tests . `` phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: and you initialize these parameters , um , in some some way and use em to come up with your training targets for a for the the low - level detectors . phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: and then , once you get that done , you you you train the whole whole thing on maximum likelihood . um , and h he shows that using this this method to detect sonorance is it 's very robust compared to , um to typical , uh , full - band gaussian mixtures um estimations of of sonorance . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad e: and , uh so so that 's just that 's just one detector . so you can imagine building many of these detectors on different features . you get enough of these detectors together , um , then you have enough information to do , um , higher level discrimination , for example , discriminating between phones phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: and then you keep working your way up until you you build a full recognizer . phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: so , um , that 's that 's the direction which i 'm i 'm thinking about going in my quals . phd a: cool . professor c: you know , it has a number of properties that i really liked . i mean , one is the going towards , um , using narrow band information for , uh , ph phonetic features of some sort rather than just , uh , immediately going for the the typical sound units . phd a: right . professor c: another thing i like about it is that you t this thing is going to be trained explicitly trained for a product of errors rule , which is what , uh , allen keeps pointing out that fletcher observed in the twenties , phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , for people listening to narrow band stuff . that 's friday 's talk , by the way . and then , um , uh , the third thing i like about it is , uh , and we 've played around with this in a different kind of way a little bit but it has n't been our dominant way of of operating anything , um , this issue of where the targets come from . so in our case when we 've been training it multi - band things , the way we get the targets for the individual bands is , uh , that we get the phonetic label for the sound there phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and we say , `` ok , we train every `` what this is saying is , ok , that 's maybe what our ultimate goal is or not ultimate but penultimate goal is getting these these small sound units . but but , um , along the way how much should we , uh uh , what should we be training these intermediate things for ? i mean , because , uh , we do n't know uh , that this is a particularly good feature . i mean , there 's no way , uh someone in the audience yesterday was asking , `` well could n't you have people go through and mark the individual bands and say where the where it was sonorant or not ? `` phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: but , you know , i think having a bunch of people listening to critical band wide , uh , chunks of speech trying to determine whether { comment } i think it 'd be impossible . grad e: ouch . professor c: it 's all gon na sound like like sine waves to you , more or less . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: i mean well not i mean , it 's g all g narrow band uh , i i m i think it 's very hard for someone to to a person to make that determination . so , um , um , we do n't really know how those should be labeled . it could sh be that you should , um , not be paying that much attention to , uh , certain bands for certain sounds , uh , in order to get the best result . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: so , um , what we have been doing there , just sort of mixing it all together , is certainly much much cruder than that . we trained these things up on the on the , uh the final label . now we have i guess done experiments you 've probably done stuff where you have , um , done separate , uh , viterbis on the different grad e: yeah . forced alignment on the sub - band labels ? professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah . professor c: you 've done that . did did that help at all ? grad e: um , it helps for one or t one iteration but um , anything after that it does n't help . professor c: so so that may or may t it that aspect of what he 's doing may or may not be helpful because in a sense that 's the same sort of thing . you 're taking global information and determining what you how you should but this is this is , uh , i th i think a little more direct . phd a: how did they measure the performance of their detector ? professor c: and well , he 's look he 's just actually looking at , uh , the confusions between sonorant and non - sonorant . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: so he has n't applied it to recognition or if he did he did n't talk about it . it 's it 's just and one of the concerns in the audience , actually , was that that , um , the , uh , uh he he did a comparison to , uh , you know , our old foil , the the nasty old standard recognizer with mel mel filter bank at the front , and h m ms , and and so forth . and , um , it did n't do nearly as well , especially in in noise . but the one of the good questions in the audience was , well , yeah , but that was n't trained for that . i mean , this use of a very smooth , uh , spectral envelope is something that , you know , has evolved as being generally a good thing for speech recognition but if you knew that what you were gon na do is detect sonorants or not so sonorants and non - sonorants is is is almost like voiced - unvoiced , except i guess that the voiced stops are are also called `` obstruents `` . uh , so it 's it 's uh , but with the exception of the stops i guess it 's pretty much the same as voiced - unvoiced , phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: right ? so so um . so , um , if you knew you were doing that , if you were doing something say for a a , uh a a vocoder , you would n't use the same kind of features . you would use something that was sensitive to the periodicity and and not just the envelope . uh , and so in that sense it was an unfair test . um , so i think that the questioner was right . it it was in that sense an unfair test . nonetheless , it was one that was interesting because , uh , this is what we are actually using for speech recognition , these smooth envelopes . and this says that perhaps even , you know , trying to use them in the best way that we can , that that that we ordinarily do , with , you know , gaussian mixtures and h m ms { comment } and so forth , you you do n't , uh , actually do that well on determining whether something is sonorant or not . phd a: did n't they professor c: which means you 're gon na make errors between similar sounds that are son sonorant or obstruent . phd a: did n't they also do some kind of an oracle experiment where they said `` if we could detect the sonorants perfectly and then show how it would improve speech recognition ? i thought i remember hearing about an experiment like that . professor c: the - these same people ? phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: i do n't remember that . phd a: hmm . professor c: that would that 's you 're right , that 's exactly the question to follow up this discussion , is suppose you did that , uh , got that right . um , yeah . phd a: hmm . phd b: what could be the other low level detectors , i mean , for { comment } other kind of features , or ? in addition to detecting sonorants or ? th - that 's what you want to to to go for also grad e: um phd b: or ? grad e: what t oh , build other other detectors on different phonetic features ? phd b: other low level detectors ? yeah . grad e: um , uh let 's see , um , yeah , i d i do n't know . e um , um , i mean , w easiest thing would be to go go do some voicing stuff but that 's very similar to sonorance . phd b: mm - hmm . grad e: um , phd a: when we when we talked with john ohala the other day we made a list of some of the things that w grad e: yeah . phd a: like frication , grad e: oh ! ok . phd a: abrupt closure , grad e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: r - coloring , nasality , voicing uh . professor c: yeah , so there 's a half dozen like that that are grad e: yeah , nasality . professor c: now this was coming at it from a different angle but maybe it 's a good way to start . uh , these are things which , uh , john felt that a a , uh a human annotator would be able to reliably mark . so the sort of things he felt would be difficult for a human annotator to reliably mark would be tongue position kinds of things . grad e: oh , ok . placing stuff , phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah . phd a: there 's also things like stress . professor c: uh phd a: you can look at stress . professor c: but stress does n't , uh , fit in this thing of coming up with features that will distinguish words from one another , grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: right ? it 's a it 's a good thing to mark and will probably help us ultimate with recognition phd a: yeah , there 's a few cases where it can like permit { comment } and permit . professor c: but phd a: but that 's not very common in english . in other languages it 's more uh , important . professor c: well , yeah , but i either case you 'd write permit , right ? so you 'd get the word right . phd a: no , i 'm saying , i i e i thought you were saying that stress does n't help you distinguish between words . professor c: um , phd a: oh , i see what you 're saying . as long as you get the sequence , professor c: we 're g if we 're doing if we 're talking about transcription as opposed to something else phd a: right ? yeah . yeah , yeah , yeah . yeah . right . professor c: yeah . phd a: so where it could help is maybe at a higher level . yeah . professor c: right . grad e: like a understanding application . phd a: understanding , yeah . exactly . professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah . professor c: but that 's this afternoon 's meeting . yeah . we do n't understand anything in this meeting . yeah , so that 's yeah , that 's , you know , a neat neat thing and and , uh so . grad e: s so , um , ohala 's going to help do these , uh transcriptions of the meeting data ? phd a: uh , well i do n't know . we d we sort of did n't get that far . um , we just talked about some possible features that could be marked by humans and , um , grad e: hmm . phd a: because of having maybe some extra transcriber time we thought we could go through and mark some portion of the data for that . and , uh professor c: yeah , grad e: hmm . professor c: i mean , that 's not an immediate problem , that we do n't immediately have a lot of extra transcriber time . phd a: yeah , right . professor c: but but , uh , in the long term i guess chuck is gon na continue the dialogue with john and and , uh , and , we 'll we 'll end up doing some i think . phd a: i 'm definitely interested in this area , too , f uh , acoustic feature stuff . professor c: uh - huh . grad e: ok . phd a: so . professor c: yeah , i think it 's an interesting interesting way to go . grad e: cool . professor c: um , i say it like `` said - int `` . i think it has a number of good things . um , so , uh , y you want to talk maybe a c two or three minutes about what we 've been talking about today and other days ? grad f: ri yeah , ok , so , um , we 're interested in , um , methods for far mike speech recognition , um , mainly , uh , methods that deal with the reverberation in the far mike signal . so , um , one approach would be , um , say msg and plp , like was used in aurora one and , um , there are other approaches which actually attempt to remove the reverberation , instead of being robust to it like msg . and so we 're interested in , um , comparing the performance of um , a robust approach like msg with these , um , speech enhancement or de - reverber de - reverberation approaches . phd b: mm - hmm . grad f: and , um , it looks like we 're gon na use the meeting recorder digits data for that . phd b: and the de - reverberation algorithm , do you have can you give some more details on this or ? does it use one microphone ? grad f: o o phd b: several microphones ? does it ? grad f: ok , well , um , there was something that was done by , um , a guy named carlos , i forget his last name , { comment } who worked with hynek , who , um , professor c: avendano . grad f: ok . professor c: yeah . grad f: who , um , phd b: mm - hmm . grad f: um , it was like rasta in the sense that of it was , um , de - convolution by filtering um , except he used a longer time window , phd b: mm - hmm . grad f: like a second maybe . and the reason for that is rasta 's time window is too short to , um include the whole , um , reverberation um , i do n't know what you call it the reverberation response . i if you see wh if you see what i mean . the reverberation filter from my mouth to that mike is like it 's t got it 's too long in the in the time domain for the um for the rasta filtering to take care of it . and , um , then there are a couple of other speech enhancement approaches which have n't been tried for speech recognition yet but have just been tried for enhancement , which , um , have the assumption that um , you can do lpc um analysis of th of the signal you get at the far microphone and the , um , all pole filter that you get out of that should be good . it 's just the , um , excitation signal { comment } that is going to be distorted by the reverberation and so you can try and reconstruct a better excitation signal and , um , feed that through the i um , all pole filter and get enhanced speech with reverberation reduced . phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: there 's also this , uh , um , uh , echo cancellation stuff that we 've sort of been chasing , so , uh we have , uh and when we 're saying these digits now we do have a close microphone signal and then there 's the distant microphone signal . and you could as a kind of baseline say , `` ok , given that we have both of these , uh , we should be able to do , uh , a cancellation . `` so that , uh , um , we we , uh , essentially identify the system in between the linear time invariant system between the microphones and and and and re and invert it , uh , or or cancel it out to to some some reasonable approximation phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: through one method or another . uh , that 's not a practical thing , uh , if you have a distant mike , you do n't have a close mike ordinarily , but we thought that might make also might make a good baseline . uh , it still wo n't be perfect because there 's noise . uh , but and then there are s uh , there are single microphone methods that i think people have done for , uh for this kind of de - reverberation . do y do you know any references to any ? cuz i i w i was w w i i lead him down a a bad path on that . phd b: uh , i g i guess i guess when people are working with single microphones , they are more trying to do professor c: but . phd b: well , not not very well , there is the avendano work , professor c: right . phd b: but also trying to mmm , uh trying to f t find the de - convolution filter but in the um not in the time domain but in the uh the stream of features uh i guess . well , @ @ { comment } there there 's someone working on this on i in mons professor c: yeah , ok . phd b: so perhaps , yeah , we should try t to he 's working on this , on trying to professor c: yeah . phd b: on re reverberation , um professor c: the first paper on this is gon na have great references , i can tell already . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: it 's always good to have references , especially when reviewers read it or or one of the authors and , feel they 'll `` you 're ok , you 've r you cited me . `` phd b: so , yeah . well , he did echo cancellation and he did some fancier things like , uh , uh , training different network on different reverberation conditions and then trying to find the best one , but . well . professor c: yeah . phd b: yeah . professor c: the oth the other thing , uh , that dave was talking about earlier was , uh , uh , multiple mike things , uh , where they 're all distant . so , um , i mean , there 's there 's all this work on arrays , but the other thing is , uh , what can we do that 's cleverer that can take some advantage of only two mikes , uh , particularly if there 's an obstruction between them , as we as we have over there . phd b: if there is ? professor c: an obstruction between them . phd b: ah , yeah . professor c: it creates a shadow which is is helpful . it 's part of why you have such good directionality with , with two ears phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: even though they 're not several feet apart . for most for most people 's heads . phd a: that could help though . professor c: so that yeah , the the head , in the way , is really that 's what it 's for . it 's basically , phd a: that 's what the head 's for ? to separate the ears ? professor c: yeah , it 's to separate the ears . that 's right , yeah . yeah . uh , so . anyway , o k . uh , i think that 's that 's all we have this week . grad e: oh . professor c: and , uh , i think it 's digit time . phd a: actually the , um for some reason the digit forms are blank . professor c: yeah ? phd a: uh , i think th that may be due to the fact that { comment } adam ran out of digits , { comment } uh , and did n't have time to regenerate any . professor c: oh ! oh ! i guess it 's well there 's no real reason to write our names on here then , phd a: yeah , if you want to put your credit card numbers and , uh professor c: is there ? grad e: oh , no ? professor c: or do did any do we need the names for the other stuff , phd a: uh , yeah , i do need your names and and the time , and all that , professor c: or ? oh , ok . phd a: cuz we put that into the `` key `` files . professor c: oh , ok . phd a: um . but w professor c: ok . phd a: that 's why we have the forms , uh , even if there are no digits . professor c: ok , yeah , i did n't notice this . i 'm sitting here and i was i was about to read them too . it 's a , uh , blank sheet of paper . phd a: so i guess we 're we 're done . professor c: yeah , yeah , i 'll do my credit card number later . ok .

the team was looking at existing models and thinking about the various bugs that they had to deal with . the frequency differences in the fir filters was one . another thing they wanted to look into was handling additive noise , which they had not dealt with explicitly .

what did the team think about the length of silence before declaring an utterance ? </s> phd a: ok , we 're on . professor c: ok , what are we talking about today ? phd b: i do n't know . do you have news from the conference talk ? uh , that was programmed for yesterday i guess . professor c: uh phd d: yesterday professor c: uh phd d: yesterday morning on video conference . professor c: uh , phd b: well professor c: oh , i 'm sorry . grad e: oh . conference call . professor c: i know now i know what you 're talking about . no , nobody 's told me anything . phd b: alright . phd a: oh , this was the , uh , talk where they were supposed to try to decide phd b: to to decide what to do , phd a: ah , right . phd b: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor c: yeah . no , that would have been a good thing to find out before this meeting , that 's . no , i have no i have no idea . um , uh , so i mean , let 's let 's assume for right now that we 're just kind of plugging on ahead , phd b: yeah . professor c: because even if they tell us that , uh , the rules are different , uh , we 're still interested in doing what we 're doing . so what are you doing ? phd b: mm - hmm . uh , well , we 've a little bit worked on trying to see , uh , what were the bugs and the problem with the latencies . phd d: to improve phd b: so , we took first we took the lda filters and , uh , we designed new filters , using uh recursive filters actually . professor c: so when you say `` we `` , is that something sunil is doing or is that ? phd b: i 'm sorry ? professor c: who is doing that ? phd b: uh , us . yeah . professor c: oh , oh . oh , ok . phd b: so we took the filters the fir filters and we { comment } designed , uh , iir filters that have the same frequency response . phd d: but professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: well , similar , but that have shorter delays . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: so they had two filters , one for the low frequency bands and another for the high frequency bands . and so we redesigned two filters . and the low frequency band has sixty - four milliseconds of delay , and the high frequency band filter has something like eleven milliseconds compared to the two hundred milliseconds of the iir filters . but it 's not yet test . so we have the filters but we still have to implement a routine that does recursive filtering professor c: ok . phd b: and professor c: you you had a discussion with sunil about this though ? phd b: no . no . professor c: uh - huh . yeah , you should talk with him . phd b: yeah , yeah . professor c: yeah . no , i mean , because the the the the whole problem that happened before was coordination , phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: right ? so so you need to discuss with him what we 're doing , phd b: yeah . professor c: uh , cuz they could be doing the same thing and or something . phd b: mm - hmm . uh , i yeah , i do n't know if th that 's what they were trying to they were trying to do something different like taking , uh well , using filter that takes only a past professor c: right . phd b: and this is just a little bit different . but i will i will send him an email and tell him exactly what we are doing , so . professor c: yeah , yeah . um , phd b: um , professor c: i mean we just we just have to be in contact more . i think that the the fact that we we did that with had that thing with the latencies was indicative of the fact that there was n't enough communication . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: so . phd b: alright . professor c: ok . phd b: um , yeah . well , there is w one , um , remark about these filters , that they do n't have a linear phase . so , professor c: right . phd b: well , i do n't know , perhaps it perhaps it does n't hurt because the phase is almost linear but . um , and so , yeah , for the delay i gave you here , it 's it 's , uh , computed on the five hertz modulation frequency , which is the mmm , well , the most important for speech so . uh , this is the first thing . professor c: so that would be , uh , a reduction of a hundred and thirty - six milliseconds , phd d: the low f f phd b: yeah . professor c: which , uh what was the total we ended up with through the whole system ? phd b: three hundred and thirty . professor c: so that would be within ? phd b: yeah , but there are other points actually , uh , which will perhaps add some more delay . is that some other other stuff in the process were perhaps not very um perf well , not very correct , like the downsampling which w was simply dropping frames . professor c: yeah . phd b: um , so we will try also to add a nice downsampling having a filter that that professor c: uh - huh . phd b: well , a low - pass filter at at twenty - five hertz . uh , because wh when when we look at the lda filters , well , they are basically low - pass but they leave a lot of what 's above twenty - five hertz . professor c: yeah . phd b: um , and so , yeah , this will be another filter which would add ten milliseconds again . professor c: yeah . phd b: um , yeah , and then there 's a third thing , is that , um , basically the way on - line normalization was done uh , is just using this recursion on on the um , um , on the feature stream , professor c: yeah . phd b: and but this is a filter , so it has also a delay . uh , and when we look at this filter actually it has a delay of eighty - five milliseconds . so if we professor c: eighty - five . phd b: yeah . if we want to be very correct , so if we want to the estimation of the mean t t to to be well , the right estimation of the mean , we have to t to take eighty - five milliseconds in the future . mmm . professor c: hmm ! that 's a little bit of a problem . phd b: yeah . um , but , well , when we add up everything it 's it will be alright . we would be at six so , sixty - five , plus ten , plus for the downsampling , plus eighty - five for the on - line normalization . so it 's professor c: uh , phd b: plus plus eighty for the neural net and pca . professor c: yeah , but then there 's oh . phd b: so it would be around two hundred and forty so , well , professor c: just just barely in there . phd b: plus plus the frames , but it 's ok . phd a: what 's the allowable ? professor c: two - fifty , unless they changed the rules . phd b: hmm . professor c: which there is there 's some discussion of . phd a: what were they thinking of changing it to ? professor c: but phd b: yeah . professor c: uh , well the people who had very low latency want it to be low uh , very very very narrow , uh , latency bound . and the people who have longer latency do n't . so . phd a: huh . phd b: so , yeah . professor c: unfortunately we 're the main ones with long latency , but phd a: ah ! professor c: but , uh , phd b: yeah , and basically the best proposal had something like thirty or forty milliseconds of latency . professor c: you know , it 's yeah . phd b: so . well . professor c: yeah , so they were basically i mean , they were more or less trading computation for performance and we were , uh , trading latency for performance . and they were dealing with noise explicitly and we were n't , and so i think of it as complementary , that if we can put the phd a: think of it as what ? professor c: complementary . phd a: hmm . professor c: i think the best systems so , uh , everything that we did in in a way it was it was just adamantly insisting on going in with a brain damaged system , which is something actually , we 've done a lot over the last thirteen years . uh , which is we say , well this is the way we should do it . and then we do it . and then someone else does something that 's straight forward . so , w th w this was a test that largely had additive noise and we did we adde did absolutely nothing explicitly to handle ad additive noise . phd a: right . professor c: we just , uh , you know , trained up systems to be more discriminant . and , uh , we did this , uh , rasta - like filtering which was done in the log domain and was tending to handle convolutional noise . we did we actually did nothing about additive noise . so , um , the , uh , spectral sub subtraction schemes a couple places did seem to seem to do a nice job . and so , uh , we 're talking about putting putting some of that in while still keeping some of our stuff . i think you should be able to end up with a system that 's better than both but clearly the way that we 're operating for this other stuff does involved some latency to to get rid of most of that latency . to get down to forty or fifty milliseconds we 'd have to throw out most of what we 're doing . and and , uh , i do n't think there 's any good reason for it in the application actually . i mean , you 're you 're you 're speaking to a recognizer on a remote server and , uh , having a a a quarter second for some processing to clean it up . it does n't seem like it 's that big a deal . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: these are n't large vocabulary things so the decoder should n't take a really long time , and . phd a: and i do n't think anybody 's gon na notice the difference between a quarter of a second of latency and thirty milliseconds of latency . professor c: so . no . what what does wa was your experience when you were doing this stuff with , uh , the the the surgical , uh , uh , microscopes and so forth . um , how long was it from when somebody , uh , finished an utterance to when , uh , something started happening ? phd a: um , we had a silence detector , so we would look for the end of an utterance based on the silence detector . professor c: mm - hmm . phd a: and i i ca n't remember now off the top of my head how many frames of silence we had to detect before we would declare it to be the end of an utterance . professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: um , but it was , uh , i would say it was probably around the order of two hundred and fifty milliseconds . professor c: yeah , and that 's when you 'd start doing things . phd a: yeah , we did the back trace at that point to get the answer . professor c: yeah . of course that did n't take too long at that point . phd a: no , no it was pretty quick . professor c: yeah . phd a: so professor c: yeah , so you you so you had a phd a: this w professor c: so you had a a quarter second delay before , uh , plus some little processing time , phd a: right . professor c: and then the the microscope would start moving or something . phd a: right . professor c: yeah . phd a: right . professor c: and there 's physical inertia there , so probably the the motion itself was all phd a: and it felt to , uh , the users that it was instantaneous . i mean , as fast as talking to a person . it th i do n't think anybody ever complained about the delay . professor c: yeah , so you would think as long as it 's under half a second or something . phd a: yeah . professor c: uh , i 'm not an expert on that phd a: yeah . professor c: but . phd a: i do n't remember the exact numbers but it was something like that . professor c: yeah . phd a: i do n't think you can really tell . a person i do n't think a person can tell the difference between , uh , you know , a quarter of a second and a hundred milliseconds , and i 'm not even sure if we can tell the difference between a quarter of a second and half a second . professor c: yeah . phd a: i mean it just it feels so quick . professor c: yeah . i mean , basically if you yeah , if you said , uh , um , `` what 's the , uh , uh what 's the shortest route to the opera ? `` and it took half a second to get back to you , phd a: yeah . professor c: i mean , it would be f i mean , it might even be too abrupt . you might have to put in a s a s a delay . phd a: yeah . i mean , it may feel different than talking to a person professor c: yeah . phd a: because when we talk to each other we tend to step on each other 's utterances . so like if i 'm asking you a question , you may start answering before i 'm even done . professor c: yeah . phd a: so it it would probably feel different professor c: right . phd a: but i do n't think it would feel slow . professor c: right . well , anyway , i mean , i think we could cut we know what else , we could cut down on the neural net time by by , uh , playing around a little bit , going more into the past , or something like that . we t we talked about that . phd a: so is the latency from the neural net caused by how far ahead you 're looking ? professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: and there 's also well , there 's the neural net and there 's also this , uh , uh , multi - frame , uh , uh , klt . phd a: was n't there was it in the , uh , recurrent neural nets where they were n't looking ahead at all ? professor c: they were n't looking ahead much . they p they looked ahead a little bit . phd a: a little bit . ok . professor c: yeah . yeah , i mean , you could do this with a recurrent net . and and then but you also could just , um , i mean , we have n't experimented with this but i imagine you could , um , uh , predict a , uh um , a label , uh , from more in the past than in than than in the future . i mean , we 've d we 've done some stuff with that before . i think it it works ok . phd b: mm - hmm . phd a: we 've always had usually we used the symmetric windows professor c: so . phd a: but i do n't think professor c: yeah , but we 've but we played a little bit with with asymmetric , guys . phd a: yeah . professor c: you can do it . so . so , that 's what that 's what you 're busy with , s messing around with this , phd b: uh , yeah . professor c: yeah . and , uh , phd d: also we were thinking to to , uh , apply the eh , spectral subtraction from ericsson phd b: yeah . professor c: uh - huh . phd d: and to to change the contextual klt for lda . phd a: change the what ? phd d: the contextual klt . phd a: i 'm missing that last word . context professor c: k klt . phd a: klt . phd d: klt grad e: oh . klt . phd a: oh , klt . professor c: mm - hmm . phd a: uh - huh . phd d: klt , i 'm sorry . uh , to change and use lda discriminative . phd b: yeah . professor c: uh - huh . phd d: but i do n't know . professor c: uh , phd a: what is the advantage of that ? phd d: uh phd b: well , it 's that by the for the moment we have , uh , something that 's discriminant and nonlinear . and the other is linear but it 's not discriminant at all . well , it 's it 's a linear transformation , that uh professor c: so at least just to understand maybe what the difference was between how much you were getting from just putting the frames together and how much you 're getting from the discriminative , what the nonlinearity does for you or does n't do for you . just to understand it a little better i guess . phd b: mmm . well uh yeah . actually what we want to do , perhaps it 's to replace to to have something that 's discriminant but linear , also . and to see if it if it improves ov over over the non - discriminant linear transformation . phd a: hmm . phd b: and if the neural net is better than this or , well . so . professor c: yeah , well , that 's what i meant , is to see whether whether it having the neural net really buys you anything . phd b: ye mmm . professor c: uh , i mean , it doe did look like it buys you something over just the klt . phd b: yeah . professor c: but maybe it 's just the discrimination and and maybe yeah , maybe the nonlinear discrimination is n't necessary . phd d: s maybe . phd b: yeah . mm - hmm . professor c: could be . phd d: maybe . professor c: good good to know . but the other part you were saying was the spectral subtraction , so you just kind of , uh phd b: yeah . professor c: at what stage do you do that ? do you you 're doing that , um ? phd b: so it would be on the um on on the mel frequency bands , phd d: we was think phd b: so . yeah , be before everything . professor c: ok , phd d: yeah , professor c: so just do that on the mel f phd d: we no nnn we we was thinking to do before after vad or phd b: yeah , phd d: oh , { comment } we do n't know exactly when it 's better . phd b: um phd d: before after vad or professor c: so so you know that that that the way that they 're phd d: and then phd b: um . professor c: uh , one thing that would be no good to find out about from this conference call is that what they were talking about , what they 're proposing doing , was having a third party , um , run a good vad , and and determine boundaries . phd d: yeah . professor c: and then given those boundaries , then have everybody do the recognition . phd d: begin to work . professor c: the reason for that was that , um , uh if some one p one group put in the vad and another did n't , uh , or one had a better vad than the other since that they 're not viewing that as being part of the the task , and that any any manufacturer would put a bunch of effort into having some s kind of good speech - silence detection . it still would n't be perfect but i mean , e the argument was `` let 's not have that be part of this test . `` `` let 's let 's separate that out . `` and so , uh , i guess they argued about that yesterday and , yeah , i 'm sorry , i do n't do n't know the answer but we should find out . i 'm sure we 'll find out soon what they , uh what they decided . so , uh yeah , so there 's the question of the vad but otherwise it 's it 's on the the , uh the mel fil filter bank , uh , energies i guess ? phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: mmm , yeah . professor c: you do doing the ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: and you 're you 're subtracting in the in the in the i guess it 's power power domain , uh , or or magnitude domain . probably power domain , right ? phd b: i guess it 's power domain , yeah . professor c: why phd b: i do n't remember exactly . professor c: yeah , phd d: i do n't remember . phd b: but yeah , so it 's before everything else , professor c: yep . phd b: and professor c: i mean , if you look at the theory , it 's it should be in the power domain but but , uh , i 've seen implementations where people do it in the magnitude domain phd b: yeah . professor c: and phd b: mmm . professor c: i have asked people why and they shrug their shoulders and say , `` oh , it works . `` so . phd b: yeah . professor c: uh , and there 's this i guess there 's this mysterious i mean people who do this a lot i guess have developed little tricks of the trade . i mean , there 's there 's this , um you do n't just subtract the the estimate of the noise spectrum . you subtract th that times phd b: a little bit more and yeah . professor c: or or less , or phd a: really ? phd b: yeah . phd a: huh ! professor c: yeah . phd b: and generated this this , professor c: uh . phd b: um , so you have the estimation of the power spectra of the noise , and you multiply this by a factor which is depend dependent on the snr . so . well . phd d: hmm , maybe . phd a: hmm ! phd b: when the speech lev when the signal level is more important , compared to this noise level , the coefficient is small , and around one . but when the power le the s signal level is uh small compared to the noise level , the coefficient is more important . and this reduce actually the music musical noise , phd a: oh ! phd b: uh which is more important during silence portions , phd a: uh - huh . phd b: when the s the energy 's small . phd a: hmm ! phd b: so there are tricks like this but , mmm . phd a: hmm ! professor c: yeah . phd b: yeah . professor c: so . phd a: is the estimate of the noise spectrum a running estimate ? or phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd b: yeah . professor c: well , that 's i mean , that 's what differs from different different tasks and different s uh , spectral subtraction methods . phd a: hmm ! professor c: i mean , if if you have , uh , fair assurance that , uh , the noise is is quite stationary , then the smartest thing to do is use as much data as possible to estimate the noise , get a much better estimate , and subtract it off . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: but if it 's varying at all , which is gon na be the case for almost any real situation , you have to do it on - line , uh , with some forgetting factor or something . phd a: so do you is there some long window that extends into the past over which you calculate the average ? professor c: well , there 's a lot of different ways of computing the noise spectrum . so one of the things that , uh , hans - guenter hirsch did , uh and pas and other people actually , he 's he was n't the only one i guess , was to , uh , take some period of of of speech and in each band , uh , develop a histogram . so , to get a decent histogram of these energies takes at least a few seconds really . but , uh i mean you can do it with a smaller amount but it 's pretty rough . and , um , in fact i think the nist standard method of determining signal - to - noise ratio is based on this . phd a: a couple seconds ? professor c: so no , no , it 's based on this kind of method , phd a: hmm . professor c: this histogram method . so you have a histogram . now , if you have signal and you have noise , you basically have these two bumps in the histogram , which you could approximate as two gaussians . phd a: but wh do n't they overlap sometimes ? professor c: oh , yeah . phd a: ok . professor c: so you have a mixture of two gaussians . phd a: yeah . professor c: right ? and you can use em to figure out what it is . you know . phd a: yeah . professor c: so so basically now you have this mixture of two gaussians , you you n know what they are , and , uh i mean , sorry , you estimate what they are , and , uh , so this gives you what the signal is and what the noise e energy is in that band in the spectrum . and then you look over the whole thing and now you have a noise spectrum . so , uh , hans - guenter hirsch and others have used that kind of method . and the other thing to do is which is sort of more trivial and obvious { comment } is to , uh , uh , determine through magical means that that , uh , there 's no speech in some period , and then see what the spectrum is . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , but , you know , it 's that that that 's tricky to do . it has mistakes . uh , and if you 've got enough time , uh , this other method appears to be somewhat more reliable . uh , a variant on that for just determining signal - to - noise ratio is to just , uh you can do a w a uh an iterative thing , em - like thing , to determine means only . i guess it is em still , but just just determine the means only . do n't worry about the variances . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and then you just use those mean values as being the the , uh uh signal - to - noise ratio in that band . phd a: but what is the it seems like this kind of thing could add to the latency . i mean , depending on where the window was that you used to calculate the signal - to - noise ratio . phd b: yeah , sure . but mmm . professor c: not necessarily . cuz if you do n't look into the future , right ? phd a: ok , well that i guess that was my question , professor c: if you just yeah phd a: yeah . professor c: i mean , if you just if you you , uh a at the beginning you have some phd a: guess . professor c: esti some guess and and , uh , uh phd b: yeah , but it professor c: it 's an interesting question . i wonder how they did do it ? phd b: actually , it 's a mmm if - if you want to have a good estimation on non - stationary noise you have to look in the in the future . i mean , if you take your window and build your histogram in this window , um , what you can expect is to have an estimation of th of the noise in in the middle of the window , not at the end . so professor c: well , yeah , phd b: the but but people professor c: but what does what what what does alcatel do ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: and and france telecom . phd b: the they just look in the past . i guess it works because the noise are , uh pret uh , almost stationary professor c: pretty stationary . grad e: pretty stationary , phd b: but , um professor c: well , the thing , e e e e grad e: yeah . professor c: yeah , y i mean , you 're talking about non - stationary noise but i think that spectral subtraction is rarely is is not gon na work really well for for non - stationary noise , phd b: well , if y if you have a good estimation of the noise , professor c: you know ? phd b: yeah , because well it it has to work . professor c: but it 's hard to phd b: i professor c: but that 's hard to do . phd b: yeah , that 's hard to do . yeah . professor c: yeah . so so i think that that what what is wh what 's more common is that you 're going to be helped with r slowly varying or stationary noise . phd b: but mm - hmm . professor c: that 's what spectral subtraction will help with , practically speaking . phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: if it varies a lot , to get a if if to get a good estimate you need a few seconds of speech , even if it 's centered , right ? phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: if you need a few seconds to get a decent estimate but it 's changed a lot in a few seconds , then it , you know , i it 's kind of a problem . phd b: yeah . professor c: i mean , imagine e five hertz is the middle of the of the speech modulation spectrum , phd b: mmm . professor c: right ? so imagine a jack hammer going at five hertz . phd b: yeah , that 's professor c: i mean , good good luck . so , phd b: so in this case , yeah , sure , you can not professor c: yeah . phd b: but i think y um , hirsch does experiment with windows of like between five hundred milliseconds and one second . and well , five hundred wa was not so bad . i mean and he worked on non - stationary noises , like noise modulated with well , wi with amplitude modulations and things like that , phd a: were his , uh , windows centered around the phd b: and but um , yeah . well , i think yeah . well , in in the paper he showed that actually the estimation of the noise is is delayed . well , it 's there is you you have to center the window , yeah . professor c: yeah . phd b: mmm . professor c: no , i understand it 's better to do but i just think that that , uh , for real noises wh what what 's most likely to happen is that there 'll be some things that are relatively stationary phd b: mmm . professor c: where you can use one or another spectral subtraction thing phd b: yeah . professor c: and other things where it 's not so stationary and i mean , you can always pick something that that falls between your methods , phd b: hmm . professor c: uh , uh , but i do n't know if , you know , if sinusoidally , uh , modul amplitude modulated noise is is sort of a big problem in in in practice . phd b: yeah . professor c: i think that it 's uh phd a: we could probably get a really good estimate of the noise if we just went to the noise files , and built the averages from them . professor c: yeah . well . phd b: what what do you mean ? professor c: just cheat you 're saying , cheat . phd b: but if the if the noise is stationary perhaps you do n't even need some kind of noise estimation algorithm . professor c: yeah . yeah . phd b: we just take th th th the beginning of the utterance and professor c: oh , yeah , sure . phd b: i i know p i do n't know if people tried this for aurora . phd d: it 's the same . phd b: well , everybody seems to use some kind of adaptive , well , scheme professor c: but but phd d: yeah . phd b: but , phd d: a dictionary . phd b: is it very useful professor c: you know , stationary phd a: very slow adaptation . phd b: and is the c phd a: th professor c: right , the word `` stationary `` is has a very precise statistical meaning . but , you know , in in signal - processing really what we 're talking about i think is things that change slowly , uh , compared with our our processing techniques . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: so if you 're driving along in a car i i would think that most of the time the nature of the noise is going to change relatively slowly . it 's not gon na stay absolute the same . if you if you check it out , uh , five minutes later you may be in a different part of the road phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: or whatever . but it 's it 's i i i using the local characteristics in time , is probably going to work pretty well . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: but you could get hurt a lot if you just took some something from the beginning of all the speech , of , you know , an hour of speech and then later phd b: yeah . professor c: uh , so they may be you know , may be overly , uh , complicated for for this test but but but , uh , i do n't know . but what you 're saying , you know , makes sense , though . i mean , if possible you should n't you should you should make it , uh , the center of the center of the window . but uh , we 're already having problems with these delay , uh delay issues . phd b: yeah , so . professor c: so , uh , we 'll have to figure ways without it . um , phd a: if they 're going to provide a , uh , voice activity detector that will tell you the boundaries of the speech , then , could n't you just go outside those boundaries and do your estimate there ? professor c: oh , yeah . you bet . yeah . so i i imagine that 's what they 're doing , right ? is they 're they 're probably looking in nonspeech sections and getting some , uh phd b: yeah , they have some kind of threshold on on the previous estimate , and so . yeah . i think . yeah , i think ericsson used this kind of threshold . yeah , so , they h they have an estimate of the noise level and they put a threshold like six or ten db above , and what 's under this threshold is used to update the estimate . is is that right phd d: yeah . phd b: or ? phd d: i think so . phd b: so it 's it 's phd d: i have not here the proposal . phd b: yeah . it 's like saying what 's under the threshold is silence , professor c: does france telecom do this phd b: and grad e: hmm . professor c: does france telecom do th do the same thing ? more or less ? phd b: i d i y you know , perhaps ? phd d: no . i do i have not here the proposal . professor c: ok . um , ok , if we 're we 're done done with that , uh , let 's see . uh , maybe we can talk about a couple other things briefly , just , uh , things that that we 've been chatting about but have n't made it into these meetings yet . so you 're coming up with your quals proposal , and , uh wan na just give a two three minute summary of what you 're planning on doing ? grad e: oh , um , two , three , it can be shorter than that . professor c: yeah . grad e: um . well , i 've i 've talked to some of you already . um , but i 'm , uh , looking into extending the work done by larry saul and john allen and uh mazin rahim . um , they they have a system that 's , uh , a multi - band , um , system but their multi - band is is a little different than the way that we 've been doing multi - band in the past , where um where we 've been @ @ { comment } uh taking um sub - band features and i training up these neural nets and on on phonetic targets , and then combining them some somehow down the line , um , they 're they 're taking sub - band features and , um , training up a detector that detects for , um , these phonetic features for example , um , he presents um , uh , a detector to detect sonorance . and so what what it basically is is , um it 's there 's at the lowest level , there it 's it 's an or ga i mean , it 's an and gate . so , uh , on each sub - band you have several independent tests , to test whether um , there 's the existence of sonorance in a sub - band . and then , um , it c it 's combined by a soft and gate . and at the at the higher level , for every if , um the higher level there 's a soft or gate . uh , so if if this detector detects um , the presence of of sonorance in any of the sub - bands , then the detect uh , the or gate at the top says , `` ok , well this frame has evidence of sonorance . `` phd a: what are what are some of the low level detectors that they use ? grad e: and these are all oh , ok . well , the low level detectors are logistic regressions . um , and the , uh professor c: so that , by the way , basically is a is one of the units in our in our our neural network . grad e: the one o professor c: so that 's all it is . it 's a sig it 's a sigmoid , grad e: yeah . professor c: uh , with weighted sum at the input , phd a: hmm . professor c: which you train by gradient descent . grad e: right . yeah , so he uses , um , an em algorithm to to um train up these um parameters for the logistic regression . professor c: well , actually , yeah , grad e: the professor c: so i was using em to get the targets . so so you have this this this and gate what we were calling an and gate , but it 's a product product rule thing at the output . and then he uses , uh , i u and then feeding into that are i 'm sorry , there 's it 's an or at the output , is n't it ? yeah , grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: so that 's the product . and then , um , then he has each of these and things . and , um , but so they 're little neural neural units . um , and , um , they have to have targets . and so the targets come from em . phd a: and so are each of these , low level detectors { comment } are they , uh are these something that you decide ahead of time , like `` i 'm going to look for this particular feature or i 'm going to look at this frequency , `` or what what what are they looking at ? grad e: um phd a: what are their inputs ? grad e: uh right , so the ok , so at each for each sub - band { comment } there are basically , uh , several measures of snr and and correlation . phd a: ah , ok , ok . grad e: um , um and he said there 's like twenty of these per per sub - band . um , and for for every s every sub - band , e you you just pick ahead of time , um , `` i 'm going to have like five i independent logistic tests . `` phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: and you initialize these parameters , um , in some some way and use em to come up with your training targets for a for the the low - level detectors . phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: and then , once you get that done , you you you train the whole whole thing on maximum likelihood . um , and h he shows that using this this method to detect sonorance is it 's very robust compared to , um to typical , uh , full - band gaussian mixtures um estimations of of sonorance . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad e: and , uh so so that 's just that 's just one detector . so you can imagine building many of these detectors on different features . you get enough of these detectors together , um , then you have enough information to do , um , higher level discrimination , for example , discriminating between phones phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: and then you keep working your way up until you you build a full recognizer . phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: so , um , that 's that 's the direction which i 'm i 'm thinking about going in my quals . phd a: cool . professor c: you know , it has a number of properties that i really liked . i mean , one is the going towards , um , using narrow band information for , uh , ph phonetic features of some sort rather than just , uh , immediately going for the the typical sound units . phd a: right . professor c: another thing i like about it is that you t this thing is going to be trained explicitly trained for a product of errors rule , which is what , uh , allen keeps pointing out that fletcher observed in the twenties , phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , for people listening to narrow band stuff . that 's friday 's talk , by the way . and then , um , uh , the third thing i like about it is , uh , and we 've played around with this in a different kind of way a little bit but it has n't been our dominant way of of operating anything , um , this issue of where the targets come from . so in our case when we 've been training it multi - band things , the way we get the targets for the individual bands is , uh , that we get the phonetic label for the sound there phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and we say , `` ok , we train every `` what this is saying is , ok , that 's maybe what our ultimate goal is or not ultimate but penultimate goal is getting these these small sound units . but but , um , along the way how much should we , uh uh , what should we be training these intermediate things for ? i mean , because , uh , we do n't know uh , that this is a particularly good feature . i mean , there 's no way , uh someone in the audience yesterday was asking , `` well could n't you have people go through and mark the individual bands and say where the where it was sonorant or not ? `` phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: but , you know , i think having a bunch of people listening to critical band wide , uh , chunks of speech trying to determine whether { comment } i think it 'd be impossible . grad e: ouch . professor c: it 's all gon na sound like like sine waves to you , more or less . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: i mean well not i mean , it 's g all g narrow band uh , i i m i think it 's very hard for someone to to a person to make that determination . so , um , um , we do n't really know how those should be labeled . it could sh be that you should , um , not be paying that much attention to , uh , certain bands for certain sounds , uh , in order to get the best result . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: so , um , what we have been doing there , just sort of mixing it all together , is certainly much much cruder than that . we trained these things up on the on the , uh the final label . now we have i guess done experiments you 've probably done stuff where you have , um , done separate , uh , viterbis on the different grad e: yeah . forced alignment on the sub - band labels ? professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah . professor c: you 've done that . did did that help at all ? grad e: um , it helps for one or t one iteration but um , anything after that it does n't help . professor c: so so that may or may t it that aspect of what he 's doing may or may not be helpful because in a sense that 's the same sort of thing . you 're taking global information and determining what you how you should but this is this is , uh , i th i think a little more direct . phd a: how did they measure the performance of their detector ? professor c: and well , he 's look he 's just actually looking at , uh , the confusions between sonorant and non - sonorant . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: so he has n't applied it to recognition or if he did he did n't talk about it . it 's it 's just and one of the concerns in the audience , actually , was that that , um , the , uh , uh he he did a comparison to , uh , you know , our old foil , the the nasty old standard recognizer with mel mel filter bank at the front , and h m ms , and and so forth . and , um , it did n't do nearly as well , especially in in noise . but the one of the good questions in the audience was , well , yeah , but that was n't trained for that . i mean , this use of a very smooth , uh , spectral envelope is something that , you know , has evolved as being generally a good thing for speech recognition but if you knew that what you were gon na do is detect sonorants or not so sonorants and non - sonorants is is is almost like voiced - unvoiced , except i guess that the voiced stops are are also called `` obstruents `` . uh , so it 's it 's uh , but with the exception of the stops i guess it 's pretty much the same as voiced - unvoiced , phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: right ? so so um . so , um , if you knew you were doing that , if you were doing something say for a a , uh a a vocoder , you would n't use the same kind of features . you would use something that was sensitive to the periodicity and and not just the envelope . uh , and so in that sense it was an unfair test . um , so i think that the questioner was right . it it was in that sense an unfair test . nonetheless , it was one that was interesting because , uh , this is what we are actually using for speech recognition , these smooth envelopes . and this says that perhaps even , you know , trying to use them in the best way that we can , that that that we ordinarily do , with , you know , gaussian mixtures and h m ms { comment } and so forth , you you do n't , uh , actually do that well on determining whether something is sonorant or not . phd a: did n't they professor c: which means you 're gon na make errors between similar sounds that are son sonorant or obstruent . phd a: did n't they also do some kind of an oracle experiment where they said `` if we could detect the sonorants perfectly and then show how it would improve speech recognition ? i thought i remember hearing about an experiment like that . professor c: the - these same people ? phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: i do n't remember that . phd a: hmm . professor c: that would that 's you 're right , that 's exactly the question to follow up this discussion , is suppose you did that , uh , got that right . um , yeah . phd a: hmm . phd b: what could be the other low level detectors , i mean , for { comment } other kind of features , or ? in addition to detecting sonorants or ? th - that 's what you want to to to go for also grad e: um phd b: or ? grad e: what t oh , build other other detectors on different phonetic features ? phd b: other low level detectors ? yeah . grad e: um , uh let 's see , um , yeah , i d i do n't know . e um , um , i mean , w easiest thing would be to go go do some voicing stuff but that 's very similar to sonorance . phd b: mm - hmm . grad e: um , phd a: when we when we talked with john ohala the other day we made a list of some of the things that w grad e: yeah . phd a: like frication , grad e: oh ! ok . phd a: abrupt closure , grad e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: r - coloring , nasality , voicing uh . professor c: yeah , so there 's a half dozen like that that are grad e: yeah , nasality . professor c: now this was coming at it from a different angle but maybe it 's a good way to start . uh , these are things which , uh , john felt that a a , uh a human annotator would be able to reliably mark . so the sort of things he felt would be difficult for a human annotator to reliably mark would be tongue position kinds of things . grad e: oh , ok . placing stuff , phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah . phd a: there 's also things like stress . professor c: uh phd a: you can look at stress . professor c: but stress does n't , uh , fit in this thing of coming up with features that will distinguish words from one another , grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: right ? it 's a it 's a good thing to mark and will probably help us ultimate with recognition phd a: yeah , there 's a few cases where it can like permit { comment } and permit . professor c: but phd a: but that 's not very common in english . in other languages it 's more uh , important . professor c: well , yeah , but i either case you 'd write permit , right ? so you 'd get the word right . phd a: no , i 'm saying , i i e i thought you were saying that stress does n't help you distinguish between words . professor c: um , phd a: oh , i see what you 're saying . as long as you get the sequence , professor c: we 're g if we 're doing if we 're talking about transcription as opposed to something else phd a: right ? yeah . yeah , yeah , yeah . yeah . right . professor c: yeah . phd a: so where it could help is maybe at a higher level . yeah . professor c: right . grad e: like a understanding application . phd a: understanding , yeah . exactly . professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah . professor c: but that 's this afternoon 's meeting . yeah . we do n't understand anything in this meeting . yeah , so that 's yeah , that 's , you know , a neat neat thing and and , uh so . grad e: s so , um , ohala 's going to help do these , uh transcriptions of the meeting data ? phd a: uh , well i do n't know . we d we sort of did n't get that far . um , we just talked about some possible features that could be marked by humans and , um , grad e: hmm . phd a: because of having maybe some extra transcriber time we thought we could go through and mark some portion of the data for that . and , uh professor c: yeah , grad e: hmm . professor c: i mean , that 's not an immediate problem , that we do n't immediately have a lot of extra transcriber time . phd a: yeah , right . professor c: but but , uh , in the long term i guess chuck is gon na continue the dialogue with john and and , uh , and , we 'll we 'll end up doing some i think . phd a: i 'm definitely interested in this area , too , f uh , acoustic feature stuff . professor c: uh - huh . grad e: ok . phd a: so . professor c: yeah , i think it 's an interesting interesting way to go . grad e: cool . professor c: um , i say it like `` said - int `` . i think it has a number of good things . um , so , uh , y you want to talk maybe a c two or three minutes about what we 've been talking about today and other days ? grad f: ri yeah , ok , so , um , we 're interested in , um , methods for far mike speech recognition , um , mainly , uh , methods that deal with the reverberation in the far mike signal . so , um , one approach would be , um , say msg and plp , like was used in aurora one and , um , there are other approaches which actually attempt to remove the reverberation , instead of being robust to it like msg . and so we 're interested in , um , comparing the performance of um , a robust approach like msg with these , um , speech enhancement or de - reverber de - reverberation approaches . phd b: mm - hmm . grad f: and , um , it looks like we 're gon na use the meeting recorder digits data for that . phd b: and the de - reverberation algorithm , do you have can you give some more details on this or ? does it use one microphone ? grad f: o o phd b: several microphones ? does it ? grad f: ok , well , um , there was something that was done by , um , a guy named carlos , i forget his last name , { comment } who worked with hynek , who , um , professor c: avendano . grad f: ok . professor c: yeah . grad f: who , um , phd b: mm - hmm . grad f: um , it was like rasta in the sense that of it was , um , de - convolution by filtering um , except he used a longer time window , phd b: mm - hmm . grad f: like a second maybe . and the reason for that is rasta 's time window is too short to , um include the whole , um , reverberation um , i do n't know what you call it the reverberation response . i if you see wh if you see what i mean . the reverberation filter from my mouth to that mike is like it 's t got it 's too long in the in the time domain for the um for the rasta filtering to take care of it . and , um , then there are a couple of other speech enhancement approaches which have n't been tried for speech recognition yet but have just been tried for enhancement , which , um , have the assumption that um , you can do lpc um analysis of th of the signal you get at the far microphone and the , um , all pole filter that you get out of that should be good . it 's just the , um , excitation signal { comment } that is going to be distorted by the reverberation and so you can try and reconstruct a better excitation signal and , um , feed that through the i um , all pole filter and get enhanced speech with reverberation reduced . phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: there 's also this , uh , um , uh , echo cancellation stuff that we 've sort of been chasing , so , uh we have , uh and when we 're saying these digits now we do have a close microphone signal and then there 's the distant microphone signal . and you could as a kind of baseline say , `` ok , given that we have both of these , uh , we should be able to do , uh , a cancellation . `` so that , uh , um , we we , uh , essentially identify the system in between the linear time invariant system between the microphones and and and and re and invert it , uh , or or cancel it out to to some some reasonable approximation phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: through one method or another . uh , that 's not a practical thing , uh , if you have a distant mike , you do n't have a close mike ordinarily , but we thought that might make also might make a good baseline . uh , it still wo n't be perfect because there 's noise . uh , but and then there are s uh , there are single microphone methods that i think people have done for , uh for this kind of de - reverberation . do y do you know any references to any ? cuz i i w i was w w i i lead him down a a bad path on that . phd b: uh , i g i guess i guess when people are working with single microphones , they are more trying to do professor c: but . phd b: well , not not very well , there is the avendano work , professor c: right . phd b: but also trying to mmm , uh trying to f t find the de - convolution filter but in the um not in the time domain but in the uh the stream of features uh i guess . well , @ @ { comment } there there 's someone working on this on i in mons professor c: yeah , ok . phd b: so perhaps , yeah , we should try t to he 's working on this , on trying to professor c: yeah . phd b: on re reverberation , um professor c: the first paper on this is gon na have great references , i can tell already . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: it 's always good to have references , especially when reviewers read it or or one of the authors and , feel they 'll `` you 're ok , you 've r you cited me . `` phd b: so , yeah . well , he did echo cancellation and he did some fancier things like , uh , uh , training different network on different reverberation conditions and then trying to find the best one , but . well . professor c: yeah . phd b: yeah . professor c: the oth the other thing , uh , that dave was talking about earlier was , uh , uh , multiple mike things , uh , where they 're all distant . so , um , i mean , there 's there 's all this work on arrays , but the other thing is , uh , what can we do that 's cleverer that can take some advantage of only two mikes , uh , particularly if there 's an obstruction between them , as we as we have over there . phd b: if there is ? professor c: an obstruction between them . phd b: ah , yeah . professor c: it creates a shadow which is is helpful . it 's part of why you have such good directionality with , with two ears phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: even though they 're not several feet apart . for most for most people 's heads . phd a: that could help though . professor c: so that yeah , the the head , in the way , is really that 's what it 's for . it 's basically , phd a: that 's what the head 's for ? to separate the ears ? professor c: yeah , it 's to separate the ears . that 's right , yeah . yeah . uh , so . anyway , o k . uh , i think that 's that 's all we have this week . grad e: oh . professor c: and , uh , i think it 's digit time . phd a: actually the , um for some reason the digit forms are blank . professor c: yeah ? phd a: uh , i think th that may be due to the fact that { comment } adam ran out of digits , { comment } uh , and did n't have time to regenerate any . professor c: oh ! oh ! i guess it 's well there 's no real reason to write our names on here then , phd a: yeah , if you want to put your credit card numbers and , uh professor c: is there ? grad e: oh , no ? professor c: or do did any do we need the names for the other stuff , phd a: uh , yeah , i do need your names and and the time , and all that , professor c: or ? oh , ok . phd a: cuz we put that into the `` key `` files . professor c: oh , ok . phd a: um . but w professor c: ok . phd a: that 's why we have the forms , uh , even if there are no digits . professor c: ok , yeah , i did n't notice this . i 'm sitting here and i was i was about to read them too . it 's a , uh , blank sheet of paper . phd a: so i guess we 're we 're done . professor c: yeah , yeah , i 'll do my credit card number later . ok .

the team thought that around 250 milliseconds was a good heuristic to detect the end of the utterance . the utterance recognition also had some processing time attached , increasing the delay .

what did the professor think about the latency ? </s> phd a: ok , we 're on . professor c: ok , what are we talking about today ? phd b: i do n't know . do you have news from the conference talk ? uh , that was programmed for yesterday i guess . professor c: uh phd d: yesterday professor c: uh phd d: yesterday morning on video conference . professor c: uh , phd b: well professor c: oh , i 'm sorry . grad e: oh . conference call . professor c: i know now i know what you 're talking about . no , nobody 's told me anything . phd b: alright . phd a: oh , this was the , uh , talk where they were supposed to try to decide phd b: to to decide what to do , phd a: ah , right . phd b: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor c: yeah . no , that would have been a good thing to find out before this meeting , that 's . no , i have no i have no idea . um , uh , so i mean , let 's let 's assume for right now that we 're just kind of plugging on ahead , phd b: yeah . professor c: because even if they tell us that , uh , the rules are different , uh , we 're still interested in doing what we 're doing . so what are you doing ? phd b: mm - hmm . uh , well , we 've a little bit worked on trying to see , uh , what were the bugs and the problem with the latencies . phd d: to improve phd b: so , we took first we took the lda filters and , uh , we designed new filters , using uh recursive filters actually . professor c: so when you say `` we `` , is that something sunil is doing or is that ? phd b: i 'm sorry ? professor c: who is doing that ? phd b: uh , us . yeah . professor c: oh , oh . oh , ok . phd b: so we took the filters the fir filters and we { comment } designed , uh , iir filters that have the same frequency response . phd d: but professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: well , similar , but that have shorter delays . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: so they had two filters , one for the low frequency bands and another for the high frequency bands . and so we redesigned two filters . and the low frequency band has sixty - four milliseconds of delay , and the high frequency band filter has something like eleven milliseconds compared to the two hundred milliseconds of the iir filters . but it 's not yet test . so we have the filters but we still have to implement a routine that does recursive filtering professor c: ok . phd b: and professor c: you you had a discussion with sunil about this though ? phd b: no . no . professor c: uh - huh . yeah , you should talk with him . phd b: yeah , yeah . professor c: yeah . no , i mean , because the the the the whole problem that happened before was coordination , phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: right ? so so you need to discuss with him what we 're doing , phd b: yeah . professor c: uh , cuz they could be doing the same thing and or something . phd b: mm - hmm . uh , i yeah , i do n't know if th that 's what they were trying to they were trying to do something different like taking , uh well , using filter that takes only a past professor c: right . phd b: and this is just a little bit different . but i will i will send him an email and tell him exactly what we are doing , so . professor c: yeah , yeah . um , phd b: um , professor c: i mean we just we just have to be in contact more . i think that the the fact that we we did that with had that thing with the latencies was indicative of the fact that there was n't enough communication . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: so . phd b: alright . professor c: ok . phd b: um , yeah . well , there is w one , um , remark about these filters , that they do n't have a linear phase . so , professor c: right . phd b: well , i do n't know , perhaps it perhaps it does n't hurt because the phase is almost linear but . um , and so , yeah , for the delay i gave you here , it 's it 's , uh , computed on the five hertz modulation frequency , which is the mmm , well , the most important for speech so . uh , this is the first thing . professor c: so that would be , uh , a reduction of a hundred and thirty - six milliseconds , phd d: the low f f phd b: yeah . professor c: which , uh what was the total we ended up with through the whole system ? phd b: three hundred and thirty . professor c: so that would be within ? phd b: yeah , but there are other points actually , uh , which will perhaps add some more delay . is that some other other stuff in the process were perhaps not very um perf well , not very correct , like the downsampling which w was simply dropping frames . professor c: yeah . phd b: um , so we will try also to add a nice downsampling having a filter that that professor c: uh - huh . phd b: well , a low - pass filter at at twenty - five hertz . uh , because wh when when we look at the lda filters , well , they are basically low - pass but they leave a lot of what 's above twenty - five hertz . professor c: yeah . phd b: um , and so , yeah , this will be another filter which would add ten milliseconds again . professor c: yeah . phd b: um , yeah , and then there 's a third thing , is that , um , basically the way on - line normalization was done uh , is just using this recursion on on the um , um , on the feature stream , professor c: yeah . phd b: and but this is a filter , so it has also a delay . uh , and when we look at this filter actually it has a delay of eighty - five milliseconds . so if we professor c: eighty - five . phd b: yeah . if we want to be very correct , so if we want to the estimation of the mean t t to to be well , the right estimation of the mean , we have to t to take eighty - five milliseconds in the future . mmm . professor c: hmm ! that 's a little bit of a problem . phd b: yeah . um , but , well , when we add up everything it 's it will be alright . we would be at six so , sixty - five , plus ten , plus for the downsampling , plus eighty - five for the on - line normalization . so it 's professor c: uh , phd b: plus plus eighty for the neural net and pca . professor c: yeah , but then there 's oh . phd b: so it would be around two hundred and forty so , well , professor c: just just barely in there . phd b: plus plus the frames , but it 's ok . phd a: what 's the allowable ? professor c: two - fifty , unless they changed the rules . phd b: hmm . professor c: which there is there 's some discussion of . phd a: what were they thinking of changing it to ? professor c: but phd b: yeah . professor c: uh , well the people who had very low latency want it to be low uh , very very very narrow , uh , latency bound . and the people who have longer latency do n't . so . phd a: huh . phd b: so , yeah . professor c: unfortunately we 're the main ones with long latency , but phd a: ah ! professor c: but , uh , phd b: yeah , and basically the best proposal had something like thirty or forty milliseconds of latency . professor c: you know , it 's yeah . phd b: so . well . professor c: yeah , so they were basically i mean , they were more or less trading computation for performance and we were , uh , trading latency for performance . and they were dealing with noise explicitly and we were n't , and so i think of it as complementary , that if we can put the phd a: think of it as what ? professor c: complementary . phd a: hmm . professor c: i think the best systems so , uh , everything that we did in in a way it was it was just adamantly insisting on going in with a brain damaged system , which is something actually , we 've done a lot over the last thirteen years . uh , which is we say , well this is the way we should do it . and then we do it . and then someone else does something that 's straight forward . so , w th w this was a test that largely had additive noise and we did we adde did absolutely nothing explicitly to handle ad additive noise . phd a: right . professor c: we just , uh , you know , trained up systems to be more discriminant . and , uh , we did this , uh , rasta - like filtering which was done in the log domain and was tending to handle convolutional noise . we did we actually did nothing about additive noise . so , um , the , uh , spectral sub subtraction schemes a couple places did seem to seem to do a nice job . and so , uh , we 're talking about putting putting some of that in while still keeping some of our stuff . i think you should be able to end up with a system that 's better than both but clearly the way that we 're operating for this other stuff does involved some latency to to get rid of most of that latency . to get down to forty or fifty milliseconds we 'd have to throw out most of what we 're doing . and and , uh , i do n't think there 's any good reason for it in the application actually . i mean , you 're you 're you 're speaking to a recognizer on a remote server and , uh , having a a a quarter second for some processing to clean it up . it does n't seem like it 's that big a deal . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: these are n't large vocabulary things so the decoder should n't take a really long time , and . phd a: and i do n't think anybody 's gon na notice the difference between a quarter of a second of latency and thirty milliseconds of latency . professor c: so . no . what what does wa was your experience when you were doing this stuff with , uh , the the the surgical , uh , uh , microscopes and so forth . um , how long was it from when somebody , uh , finished an utterance to when , uh , something started happening ? phd a: um , we had a silence detector , so we would look for the end of an utterance based on the silence detector . professor c: mm - hmm . phd a: and i i ca n't remember now off the top of my head how many frames of silence we had to detect before we would declare it to be the end of an utterance . professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: um , but it was , uh , i would say it was probably around the order of two hundred and fifty milliseconds . professor c: yeah , and that 's when you 'd start doing things . phd a: yeah , we did the back trace at that point to get the answer . professor c: yeah . of course that did n't take too long at that point . phd a: no , no it was pretty quick . professor c: yeah . phd a: so professor c: yeah , so you you so you had a phd a: this w professor c: so you had a a quarter second delay before , uh , plus some little processing time , phd a: right . professor c: and then the the microscope would start moving or something . phd a: right . professor c: yeah . phd a: right . professor c: and there 's physical inertia there , so probably the the motion itself was all phd a: and it felt to , uh , the users that it was instantaneous . i mean , as fast as talking to a person . it th i do n't think anybody ever complained about the delay . professor c: yeah , so you would think as long as it 's under half a second or something . phd a: yeah . professor c: uh , i 'm not an expert on that phd a: yeah . professor c: but . phd a: i do n't remember the exact numbers but it was something like that . professor c: yeah . phd a: i do n't think you can really tell . a person i do n't think a person can tell the difference between , uh , you know , a quarter of a second and a hundred milliseconds , and i 'm not even sure if we can tell the difference between a quarter of a second and half a second . professor c: yeah . phd a: i mean it just it feels so quick . professor c: yeah . i mean , basically if you yeah , if you said , uh , um , `` what 's the , uh , uh what 's the shortest route to the opera ? `` and it took half a second to get back to you , phd a: yeah . professor c: i mean , it would be f i mean , it might even be too abrupt . you might have to put in a s a s a delay . phd a: yeah . i mean , it may feel different than talking to a person professor c: yeah . phd a: because when we talk to each other we tend to step on each other 's utterances . so like if i 'm asking you a question , you may start answering before i 'm even done . professor c: yeah . phd a: so it it would probably feel different professor c: right . phd a: but i do n't think it would feel slow . professor c: right . well , anyway , i mean , i think we could cut we know what else , we could cut down on the neural net time by by , uh , playing around a little bit , going more into the past , or something like that . we t we talked about that . phd a: so is the latency from the neural net caused by how far ahead you 're looking ? professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: and there 's also well , there 's the neural net and there 's also this , uh , uh , multi - frame , uh , uh , klt . phd a: was n't there was it in the , uh , recurrent neural nets where they were n't looking ahead at all ? professor c: they were n't looking ahead much . they p they looked ahead a little bit . phd a: a little bit . ok . professor c: yeah . yeah , i mean , you could do this with a recurrent net . and and then but you also could just , um , i mean , we have n't experimented with this but i imagine you could , um , uh , predict a , uh um , a label , uh , from more in the past than in than than in the future . i mean , we 've d we 've done some stuff with that before . i think it it works ok . phd b: mm - hmm . phd a: we 've always had usually we used the symmetric windows professor c: so . phd a: but i do n't think professor c: yeah , but we 've but we played a little bit with with asymmetric , guys . phd a: yeah . professor c: you can do it . so . so , that 's what that 's what you 're busy with , s messing around with this , phd b: uh , yeah . professor c: yeah . and , uh , phd d: also we were thinking to to , uh , apply the eh , spectral subtraction from ericsson phd b: yeah . professor c: uh - huh . phd d: and to to change the contextual klt for lda . phd a: change the what ? phd d: the contextual klt . phd a: i 'm missing that last word . context professor c: k klt . phd a: klt . phd d: klt grad e: oh . klt . phd a: oh , klt . professor c: mm - hmm . phd a: uh - huh . phd d: klt , i 'm sorry . uh , to change and use lda discriminative . phd b: yeah . professor c: uh - huh . phd d: but i do n't know . professor c: uh , phd a: what is the advantage of that ? phd d: uh phd b: well , it 's that by the for the moment we have , uh , something that 's discriminant and nonlinear . and the other is linear but it 's not discriminant at all . well , it 's it 's a linear transformation , that uh professor c: so at least just to understand maybe what the difference was between how much you were getting from just putting the frames together and how much you 're getting from the discriminative , what the nonlinearity does for you or does n't do for you . just to understand it a little better i guess . phd b: mmm . well uh yeah . actually what we want to do , perhaps it 's to replace to to have something that 's discriminant but linear , also . and to see if it if it improves ov over over the non - discriminant linear transformation . phd a: hmm . phd b: and if the neural net is better than this or , well . so . professor c: yeah , well , that 's what i meant , is to see whether whether it having the neural net really buys you anything . phd b: ye mmm . professor c: uh , i mean , it doe did look like it buys you something over just the klt . phd b: yeah . professor c: but maybe it 's just the discrimination and and maybe yeah , maybe the nonlinear discrimination is n't necessary . phd d: s maybe . phd b: yeah . mm - hmm . professor c: could be . phd d: maybe . professor c: good good to know . but the other part you were saying was the spectral subtraction , so you just kind of , uh phd b: yeah . professor c: at what stage do you do that ? do you you 're doing that , um ? phd b: so it would be on the um on on the mel frequency bands , phd d: we was think phd b: so . yeah , be before everything . professor c: ok , phd d: yeah , professor c: so just do that on the mel f phd d: we no nnn we we was thinking to do before after vad or phd b: yeah , phd d: oh , { comment } we do n't know exactly when it 's better . phd b: um phd d: before after vad or professor c: so so you know that that that the way that they 're phd d: and then phd b: um . professor c: uh , one thing that would be no good to find out about from this conference call is that what they were talking about , what they 're proposing doing , was having a third party , um , run a good vad , and and determine boundaries . phd d: yeah . professor c: and then given those boundaries , then have everybody do the recognition . phd d: begin to work . professor c: the reason for that was that , um , uh if some one p one group put in the vad and another did n't , uh , or one had a better vad than the other since that they 're not viewing that as being part of the the task , and that any any manufacturer would put a bunch of effort into having some s kind of good speech - silence detection . it still would n't be perfect but i mean , e the argument was `` let 's not have that be part of this test . `` `` let 's let 's separate that out . `` and so , uh , i guess they argued about that yesterday and , yeah , i 'm sorry , i do n't do n't know the answer but we should find out . i 'm sure we 'll find out soon what they , uh what they decided . so , uh yeah , so there 's the question of the vad but otherwise it 's it 's on the the , uh the mel fil filter bank , uh , energies i guess ? phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: mmm , yeah . professor c: you do doing the ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: and you 're you 're subtracting in the in the in the i guess it 's power power domain , uh , or or magnitude domain . probably power domain , right ? phd b: i guess it 's power domain , yeah . professor c: why phd b: i do n't remember exactly . professor c: yeah , phd d: i do n't remember . phd b: but yeah , so it 's before everything else , professor c: yep . phd b: and professor c: i mean , if you look at the theory , it 's it should be in the power domain but but , uh , i 've seen implementations where people do it in the magnitude domain phd b: yeah . professor c: and phd b: mmm . professor c: i have asked people why and they shrug their shoulders and say , `` oh , it works . `` so . phd b: yeah . professor c: uh , and there 's this i guess there 's this mysterious i mean people who do this a lot i guess have developed little tricks of the trade . i mean , there 's there 's this , um you do n't just subtract the the estimate of the noise spectrum . you subtract th that times phd b: a little bit more and yeah . professor c: or or less , or phd a: really ? phd b: yeah . phd a: huh ! professor c: yeah . phd b: and generated this this , professor c: uh . phd b: um , so you have the estimation of the power spectra of the noise , and you multiply this by a factor which is depend dependent on the snr . so . well . phd d: hmm , maybe . phd a: hmm ! phd b: when the speech lev when the signal level is more important , compared to this noise level , the coefficient is small , and around one . but when the power le the s signal level is uh small compared to the noise level , the coefficient is more important . and this reduce actually the music musical noise , phd a: oh ! phd b: uh which is more important during silence portions , phd a: uh - huh . phd b: when the s the energy 's small . phd a: hmm ! phd b: so there are tricks like this but , mmm . phd a: hmm ! professor c: yeah . phd b: yeah . professor c: so . phd a: is the estimate of the noise spectrum a running estimate ? or phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd b: yeah . professor c: well , that 's i mean , that 's what differs from different different tasks and different s uh , spectral subtraction methods . phd a: hmm ! professor c: i mean , if if you have , uh , fair assurance that , uh , the noise is is quite stationary , then the smartest thing to do is use as much data as possible to estimate the noise , get a much better estimate , and subtract it off . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: but if it 's varying at all , which is gon na be the case for almost any real situation , you have to do it on - line , uh , with some forgetting factor or something . phd a: so do you is there some long window that extends into the past over which you calculate the average ? professor c: well , there 's a lot of different ways of computing the noise spectrum . so one of the things that , uh , hans - guenter hirsch did , uh and pas and other people actually , he 's he was n't the only one i guess , was to , uh , take some period of of of speech and in each band , uh , develop a histogram . so , to get a decent histogram of these energies takes at least a few seconds really . but , uh i mean you can do it with a smaller amount but it 's pretty rough . and , um , in fact i think the nist standard method of determining signal - to - noise ratio is based on this . phd a: a couple seconds ? professor c: so no , no , it 's based on this kind of method , phd a: hmm . professor c: this histogram method . so you have a histogram . now , if you have signal and you have noise , you basically have these two bumps in the histogram , which you could approximate as two gaussians . phd a: but wh do n't they overlap sometimes ? professor c: oh , yeah . phd a: ok . professor c: so you have a mixture of two gaussians . phd a: yeah . professor c: right ? and you can use em to figure out what it is . you know . phd a: yeah . professor c: so so basically now you have this mixture of two gaussians , you you n know what they are , and , uh i mean , sorry , you estimate what they are , and , uh , so this gives you what the signal is and what the noise e energy is in that band in the spectrum . and then you look over the whole thing and now you have a noise spectrum . so , uh , hans - guenter hirsch and others have used that kind of method . and the other thing to do is which is sort of more trivial and obvious { comment } is to , uh , uh , determine through magical means that that , uh , there 's no speech in some period , and then see what the spectrum is . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , but , you know , it 's that that that 's tricky to do . it has mistakes . uh , and if you 've got enough time , uh , this other method appears to be somewhat more reliable . uh , a variant on that for just determining signal - to - noise ratio is to just , uh you can do a w a uh an iterative thing , em - like thing , to determine means only . i guess it is em still , but just just determine the means only . do n't worry about the variances . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and then you just use those mean values as being the the , uh uh signal - to - noise ratio in that band . phd a: but what is the it seems like this kind of thing could add to the latency . i mean , depending on where the window was that you used to calculate the signal - to - noise ratio . phd b: yeah , sure . but mmm . professor c: not necessarily . cuz if you do n't look into the future , right ? phd a: ok , well that i guess that was my question , professor c: if you just yeah phd a: yeah . professor c: i mean , if you just if you you , uh a at the beginning you have some phd a: guess . professor c: esti some guess and and , uh , uh phd b: yeah , but it professor c: it 's an interesting question . i wonder how they did do it ? phd b: actually , it 's a mmm if - if you want to have a good estimation on non - stationary noise you have to look in the in the future . i mean , if you take your window and build your histogram in this window , um , what you can expect is to have an estimation of th of the noise in in the middle of the window , not at the end . so professor c: well , yeah , phd b: the but but people professor c: but what does what what what does alcatel do ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: and and france telecom . phd b: the they just look in the past . i guess it works because the noise are , uh pret uh , almost stationary professor c: pretty stationary . grad e: pretty stationary , phd b: but , um professor c: well , the thing , e e e e grad e: yeah . professor c: yeah , y i mean , you 're talking about non - stationary noise but i think that spectral subtraction is rarely is is not gon na work really well for for non - stationary noise , phd b: well , if y if you have a good estimation of the noise , professor c: you know ? phd b: yeah , because well it it has to work . professor c: but it 's hard to phd b: i professor c: but that 's hard to do . phd b: yeah , that 's hard to do . yeah . professor c: yeah . so so i think that that what what is wh what 's more common is that you 're going to be helped with r slowly varying or stationary noise . phd b: but mm - hmm . professor c: that 's what spectral subtraction will help with , practically speaking . phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: if it varies a lot , to get a if if to get a good estimate you need a few seconds of speech , even if it 's centered , right ? phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: if you need a few seconds to get a decent estimate but it 's changed a lot in a few seconds , then it , you know , i it 's kind of a problem . phd b: yeah . professor c: i mean , imagine e five hertz is the middle of the of the speech modulation spectrum , phd b: mmm . professor c: right ? so imagine a jack hammer going at five hertz . phd b: yeah , that 's professor c: i mean , good good luck . so , phd b: so in this case , yeah , sure , you can not professor c: yeah . phd b: but i think y um , hirsch does experiment with windows of like between five hundred milliseconds and one second . and well , five hundred wa was not so bad . i mean and he worked on non - stationary noises , like noise modulated with well , wi with amplitude modulations and things like that , phd a: were his , uh , windows centered around the phd b: and but um , yeah . well , i think yeah . well , in in the paper he showed that actually the estimation of the noise is is delayed . well , it 's there is you you have to center the window , yeah . professor c: yeah . phd b: mmm . professor c: no , i understand it 's better to do but i just think that that , uh , for real noises wh what what 's most likely to happen is that there 'll be some things that are relatively stationary phd b: mmm . professor c: where you can use one or another spectral subtraction thing phd b: yeah . professor c: and other things where it 's not so stationary and i mean , you can always pick something that that falls between your methods , phd b: hmm . professor c: uh , uh , but i do n't know if , you know , if sinusoidally , uh , modul amplitude modulated noise is is sort of a big problem in in in practice . phd b: yeah . professor c: i think that it 's uh phd a: we could probably get a really good estimate of the noise if we just went to the noise files , and built the averages from them . professor c: yeah . well . phd b: what what do you mean ? professor c: just cheat you 're saying , cheat . phd b: but if the if the noise is stationary perhaps you do n't even need some kind of noise estimation algorithm . professor c: yeah . yeah . phd b: we just take th th th the beginning of the utterance and professor c: oh , yeah , sure . phd b: i i know p i do n't know if people tried this for aurora . phd d: it 's the same . phd b: well , everybody seems to use some kind of adaptive , well , scheme professor c: but but phd d: yeah . phd b: but , phd d: a dictionary . phd b: is it very useful professor c: you know , stationary phd a: very slow adaptation . phd b: and is the c phd a: th professor c: right , the word `` stationary `` is has a very precise statistical meaning . but , you know , in in signal - processing really what we 're talking about i think is things that change slowly , uh , compared with our our processing techniques . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: so if you 're driving along in a car i i would think that most of the time the nature of the noise is going to change relatively slowly . it 's not gon na stay absolute the same . if you if you check it out , uh , five minutes later you may be in a different part of the road phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: or whatever . but it 's it 's i i i using the local characteristics in time , is probably going to work pretty well . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: but you could get hurt a lot if you just took some something from the beginning of all the speech , of , you know , an hour of speech and then later phd b: yeah . professor c: uh , so they may be you know , may be overly , uh , complicated for for this test but but but , uh , i do n't know . but what you 're saying , you know , makes sense , though . i mean , if possible you should n't you should you should make it , uh , the center of the center of the window . but uh , we 're already having problems with these delay , uh delay issues . phd b: yeah , so . professor c: so , uh , we 'll have to figure ways without it . um , phd a: if they 're going to provide a , uh , voice activity detector that will tell you the boundaries of the speech , then , could n't you just go outside those boundaries and do your estimate there ? professor c: oh , yeah . you bet . yeah . so i i imagine that 's what they 're doing , right ? is they 're they 're probably looking in nonspeech sections and getting some , uh phd b: yeah , they have some kind of threshold on on the previous estimate , and so . yeah . i think . yeah , i think ericsson used this kind of threshold . yeah , so , they h they have an estimate of the noise level and they put a threshold like six or ten db above , and what 's under this threshold is used to update the estimate . is is that right phd d: yeah . phd b: or ? phd d: i think so . phd b: so it 's it 's phd d: i have not here the proposal . phd b: yeah . it 's like saying what 's under the threshold is silence , professor c: does france telecom do this phd b: and grad e: hmm . professor c: does france telecom do th do the same thing ? more or less ? phd b: i d i y you know , perhaps ? phd d: no . i do i have not here the proposal . professor c: ok . um , ok , if we 're we 're done done with that , uh , let 's see . uh , maybe we can talk about a couple other things briefly , just , uh , things that that we 've been chatting about but have n't made it into these meetings yet . so you 're coming up with your quals proposal , and , uh wan na just give a two three minute summary of what you 're planning on doing ? grad e: oh , um , two , three , it can be shorter than that . professor c: yeah . grad e: um . well , i 've i 've talked to some of you already . um , but i 'm , uh , looking into extending the work done by larry saul and john allen and uh mazin rahim . um , they they have a system that 's , uh , a multi - band , um , system but their multi - band is is a little different than the way that we 've been doing multi - band in the past , where um where we 've been @ @ { comment } uh taking um sub - band features and i training up these neural nets and on on phonetic targets , and then combining them some somehow down the line , um , they 're they 're taking sub - band features and , um , training up a detector that detects for , um , these phonetic features for example , um , he presents um , uh , a detector to detect sonorance . and so what what it basically is is , um it 's there 's at the lowest level , there it 's it 's an or ga i mean , it 's an and gate . so , uh , on each sub - band you have several independent tests , to test whether um , there 's the existence of sonorance in a sub - band . and then , um , it c it 's combined by a soft and gate . and at the at the higher level , for every if , um the higher level there 's a soft or gate . uh , so if if this detector detects um , the presence of of sonorance in any of the sub - bands , then the detect uh , the or gate at the top says , `` ok , well this frame has evidence of sonorance . `` phd a: what are what are some of the low level detectors that they use ? grad e: and these are all oh , ok . well , the low level detectors are logistic regressions . um , and the , uh professor c: so that , by the way , basically is a is one of the units in our in our our neural network . grad e: the one o professor c: so that 's all it is . it 's a sig it 's a sigmoid , grad e: yeah . professor c: uh , with weighted sum at the input , phd a: hmm . professor c: which you train by gradient descent . grad e: right . yeah , so he uses , um , an em algorithm to to um train up these um parameters for the logistic regression . professor c: well , actually , yeah , grad e: the professor c: so i was using em to get the targets . so so you have this this this and gate what we were calling an and gate , but it 's a product product rule thing at the output . and then he uses , uh , i u and then feeding into that are i 'm sorry , there 's it 's an or at the output , is n't it ? yeah , grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: so that 's the product . and then , um , then he has each of these and things . and , um , but so they 're little neural neural units . um , and , um , they have to have targets . and so the targets come from em . phd a: and so are each of these , low level detectors { comment } are they , uh are these something that you decide ahead of time , like `` i 'm going to look for this particular feature or i 'm going to look at this frequency , `` or what what what are they looking at ? grad e: um phd a: what are their inputs ? grad e: uh right , so the ok , so at each for each sub - band { comment } there are basically , uh , several measures of snr and and correlation . phd a: ah , ok , ok . grad e: um , um and he said there 's like twenty of these per per sub - band . um , and for for every s every sub - band , e you you just pick ahead of time , um , `` i 'm going to have like five i independent logistic tests . `` phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: and you initialize these parameters , um , in some some way and use em to come up with your training targets for a for the the low - level detectors . phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: and then , once you get that done , you you you train the whole whole thing on maximum likelihood . um , and h he shows that using this this method to detect sonorance is it 's very robust compared to , um to typical , uh , full - band gaussian mixtures um estimations of of sonorance . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad e: and , uh so so that 's just that 's just one detector . so you can imagine building many of these detectors on different features . you get enough of these detectors together , um , then you have enough information to do , um , higher level discrimination , for example , discriminating between phones phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: and then you keep working your way up until you you build a full recognizer . phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: so , um , that 's that 's the direction which i 'm i 'm thinking about going in my quals . phd a: cool . professor c: you know , it has a number of properties that i really liked . i mean , one is the going towards , um , using narrow band information for , uh , ph phonetic features of some sort rather than just , uh , immediately going for the the typical sound units . phd a: right . professor c: another thing i like about it is that you t this thing is going to be trained explicitly trained for a product of errors rule , which is what , uh , allen keeps pointing out that fletcher observed in the twenties , phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , for people listening to narrow band stuff . that 's friday 's talk , by the way . and then , um , uh , the third thing i like about it is , uh , and we 've played around with this in a different kind of way a little bit but it has n't been our dominant way of of operating anything , um , this issue of where the targets come from . so in our case when we 've been training it multi - band things , the way we get the targets for the individual bands is , uh , that we get the phonetic label for the sound there phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and we say , `` ok , we train every `` what this is saying is , ok , that 's maybe what our ultimate goal is or not ultimate but penultimate goal is getting these these small sound units . but but , um , along the way how much should we , uh uh , what should we be training these intermediate things for ? i mean , because , uh , we do n't know uh , that this is a particularly good feature . i mean , there 's no way , uh someone in the audience yesterday was asking , `` well could n't you have people go through and mark the individual bands and say where the where it was sonorant or not ? `` phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: but , you know , i think having a bunch of people listening to critical band wide , uh , chunks of speech trying to determine whether { comment } i think it 'd be impossible . grad e: ouch . professor c: it 's all gon na sound like like sine waves to you , more or less . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: i mean well not i mean , it 's g all g narrow band uh , i i m i think it 's very hard for someone to to a person to make that determination . so , um , um , we do n't really know how those should be labeled . it could sh be that you should , um , not be paying that much attention to , uh , certain bands for certain sounds , uh , in order to get the best result . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: so , um , what we have been doing there , just sort of mixing it all together , is certainly much much cruder than that . we trained these things up on the on the , uh the final label . now we have i guess done experiments you 've probably done stuff where you have , um , done separate , uh , viterbis on the different grad e: yeah . forced alignment on the sub - band labels ? professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah . professor c: you 've done that . did did that help at all ? grad e: um , it helps for one or t one iteration but um , anything after that it does n't help . professor c: so so that may or may t it that aspect of what he 's doing may or may not be helpful because in a sense that 's the same sort of thing . you 're taking global information and determining what you how you should but this is this is , uh , i th i think a little more direct . phd a: how did they measure the performance of their detector ? professor c: and well , he 's look he 's just actually looking at , uh , the confusions between sonorant and non - sonorant . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: so he has n't applied it to recognition or if he did he did n't talk about it . it 's it 's just and one of the concerns in the audience , actually , was that that , um , the , uh , uh he he did a comparison to , uh , you know , our old foil , the the nasty old standard recognizer with mel mel filter bank at the front , and h m ms , and and so forth . and , um , it did n't do nearly as well , especially in in noise . but the one of the good questions in the audience was , well , yeah , but that was n't trained for that . i mean , this use of a very smooth , uh , spectral envelope is something that , you know , has evolved as being generally a good thing for speech recognition but if you knew that what you were gon na do is detect sonorants or not so sonorants and non - sonorants is is is almost like voiced - unvoiced , except i guess that the voiced stops are are also called `` obstruents `` . uh , so it 's it 's uh , but with the exception of the stops i guess it 's pretty much the same as voiced - unvoiced , phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: right ? so so um . so , um , if you knew you were doing that , if you were doing something say for a a , uh a a vocoder , you would n't use the same kind of features . you would use something that was sensitive to the periodicity and and not just the envelope . uh , and so in that sense it was an unfair test . um , so i think that the questioner was right . it it was in that sense an unfair test . nonetheless , it was one that was interesting because , uh , this is what we are actually using for speech recognition , these smooth envelopes . and this says that perhaps even , you know , trying to use them in the best way that we can , that that that we ordinarily do , with , you know , gaussian mixtures and h m ms { comment } and so forth , you you do n't , uh , actually do that well on determining whether something is sonorant or not . phd a: did n't they professor c: which means you 're gon na make errors between similar sounds that are son sonorant or obstruent . phd a: did n't they also do some kind of an oracle experiment where they said `` if we could detect the sonorants perfectly and then show how it would improve speech recognition ? i thought i remember hearing about an experiment like that . professor c: the - these same people ? phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: i do n't remember that . phd a: hmm . professor c: that would that 's you 're right , that 's exactly the question to follow up this discussion , is suppose you did that , uh , got that right . um , yeah . phd a: hmm . phd b: what could be the other low level detectors , i mean , for { comment } other kind of features , or ? in addition to detecting sonorants or ? th - that 's what you want to to to go for also grad e: um phd b: or ? grad e: what t oh , build other other detectors on different phonetic features ? phd b: other low level detectors ? yeah . grad e: um , uh let 's see , um , yeah , i d i do n't know . e um , um , i mean , w easiest thing would be to go go do some voicing stuff but that 's very similar to sonorance . phd b: mm - hmm . grad e: um , phd a: when we when we talked with john ohala the other day we made a list of some of the things that w grad e: yeah . phd a: like frication , grad e: oh ! ok . phd a: abrupt closure , grad e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: r - coloring , nasality , voicing uh . professor c: yeah , so there 's a half dozen like that that are grad e: yeah , nasality . professor c: now this was coming at it from a different angle but maybe it 's a good way to start . uh , these are things which , uh , john felt that a a , uh a human annotator would be able to reliably mark . so the sort of things he felt would be difficult for a human annotator to reliably mark would be tongue position kinds of things . grad e: oh , ok . placing stuff , phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah . phd a: there 's also things like stress . professor c: uh phd a: you can look at stress . professor c: but stress does n't , uh , fit in this thing of coming up with features that will distinguish words from one another , grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: right ? it 's a it 's a good thing to mark and will probably help us ultimate with recognition phd a: yeah , there 's a few cases where it can like permit { comment } and permit . professor c: but phd a: but that 's not very common in english . in other languages it 's more uh , important . professor c: well , yeah , but i either case you 'd write permit , right ? so you 'd get the word right . phd a: no , i 'm saying , i i e i thought you were saying that stress does n't help you distinguish between words . professor c: um , phd a: oh , i see what you 're saying . as long as you get the sequence , professor c: we 're g if we 're doing if we 're talking about transcription as opposed to something else phd a: right ? yeah . yeah , yeah , yeah . yeah . right . professor c: yeah . phd a: so where it could help is maybe at a higher level . yeah . professor c: right . grad e: like a understanding application . phd a: understanding , yeah . exactly . professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah . professor c: but that 's this afternoon 's meeting . yeah . we do n't understand anything in this meeting . yeah , so that 's yeah , that 's , you know , a neat neat thing and and , uh so . grad e: s so , um , ohala 's going to help do these , uh transcriptions of the meeting data ? phd a: uh , well i do n't know . we d we sort of did n't get that far . um , we just talked about some possible features that could be marked by humans and , um , grad e: hmm . phd a: because of having maybe some extra transcriber time we thought we could go through and mark some portion of the data for that . and , uh professor c: yeah , grad e: hmm . professor c: i mean , that 's not an immediate problem , that we do n't immediately have a lot of extra transcriber time . phd a: yeah , right . professor c: but but , uh , in the long term i guess chuck is gon na continue the dialogue with john and and , uh , and , we 'll we 'll end up doing some i think . phd a: i 'm definitely interested in this area , too , f uh , acoustic feature stuff . professor c: uh - huh . grad e: ok . phd a: so . professor c: yeah , i think it 's an interesting interesting way to go . grad e: cool . professor c: um , i say it like `` said - int `` . i think it has a number of good things . um , so , uh , y you want to talk maybe a c two or three minutes about what we 've been talking about today and other days ? grad f: ri yeah , ok , so , um , we 're interested in , um , methods for far mike speech recognition , um , mainly , uh , methods that deal with the reverberation in the far mike signal . so , um , one approach would be , um , say msg and plp , like was used in aurora one and , um , there are other approaches which actually attempt to remove the reverberation , instead of being robust to it like msg . and so we 're interested in , um , comparing the performance of um , a robust approach like msg with these , um , speech enhancement or de - reverber de - reverberation approaches . phd b: mm - hmm . grad f: and , um , it looks like we 're gon na use the meeting recorder digits data for that . phd b: and the de - reverberation algorithm , do you have can you give some more details on this or ? does it use one microphone ? grad f: o o phd b: several microphones ? does it ? grad f: ok , well , um , there was something that was done by , um , a guy named carlos , i forget his last name , { comment } who worked with hynek , who , um , professor c: avendano . grad f: ok . professor c: yeah . grad f: who , um , phd b: mm - hmm . grad f: um , it was like rasta in the sense that of it was , um , de - convolution by filtering um , except he used a longer time window , phd b: mm - hmm . grad f: like a second maybe . and the reason for that is rasta 's time window is too short to , um include the whole , um , reverberation um , i do n't know what you call it the reverberation response . i if you see wh if you see what i mean . the reverberation filter from my mouth to that mike is like it 's t got it 's too long in the in the time domain for the um for the rasta filtering to take care of it . and , um , then there are a couple of other speech enhancement approaches which have n't been tried for speech recognition yet but have just been tried for enhancement , which , um , have the assumption that um , you can do lpc um analysis of th of the signal you get at the far microphone and the , um , all pole filter that you get out of that should be good . it 's just the , um , excitation signal { comment } that is going to be distorted by the reverberation and so you can try and reconstruct a better excitation signal and , um , feed that through the i um , all pole filter and get enhanced speech with reverberation reduced . phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: there 's also this , uh , um , uh , echo cancellation stuff that we 've sort of been chasing , so , uh we have , uh and when we 're saying these digits now we do have a close microphone signal and then there 's the distant microphone signal . and you could as a kind of baseline say , `` ok , given that we have both of these , uh , we should be able to do , uh , a cancellation . `` so that , uh , um , we we , uh , essentially identify the system in between the linear time invariant system between the microphones and and and and re and invert it , uh , or or cancel it out to to some some reasonable approximation phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: through one method or another . uh , that 's not a practical thing , uh , if you have a distant mike , you do n't have a close mike ordinarily , but we thought that might make also might make a good baseline . uh , it still wo n't be perfect because there 's noise . uh , but and then there are s uh , there are single microphone methods that i think people have done for , uh for this kind of de - reverberation . do y do you know any references to any ? cuz i i w i was w w i i lead him down a a bad path on that . phd b: uh , i g i guess i guess when people are working with single microphones , they are more trying to do professor c: but . phd b: well , not not very well , there is the avendano work , professor c: right . phd b: but also trying to mmm , uh trying to f t find the de - convolution filter but in the um not in the time domain but in the uh the stream of features uh i guess . well , @ @ { comment } there there 's someone working on this on i in mons professor c: yeah , ok . phd b: so perhaps , yeah , we should try t to he 's working on this , on trying to professor c: yeah . phd b: on re reverberation , um professor c: the first paper on this is gon na have great references , i can tell already . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: it 's always good to have references , especially when reviewers read it or or one of the authors and , feel they 'll `` you 're ok , you 've r you cited me . `` phd b: so , yeah . well , he did echo cancellation and he did some fancier things like , uh , uh , training different network on different reverberation conditions and then trying to find the best one , but . well . professor c: yeah . phd b: yeah . professor c: the oth the other thing , uh , that dave was talking about earlier was , uh , uh , multiple mike things , uh , where they 're all distant . so , um , i mean , there 's there 's all this work on arrays , but the other thing is , uh , what can we do that 's cleverer that can take some advantage of only two mikes , uh , particularly if there 's an obstruction between them , as we as we have over there . phd b: if there is ? professor c: an obstruction between them . phd b: ah , yeah . professor c: it creates a shadow which is is helpful . it 's part of why you have such good directionality with , with two ears phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: even though they 're not several feet apart . for most for most people 's heads . phd a: that could help though . professor c: so that yeah , the the head , in the way , is really that 's what it 's for . it 's basically , phd a: that 's what the head 's for ? to separate the ears ? professor c: yeah , it 's to separate the ears . that 's right , yeah . yeah . uh , so . anyway , o k . uh , i think that 's that 's all we have this week . grad e: oh . professor c: and , uh , i think it 's digit time . phd a: actually the , um for some reason the digit forms are blank . professor c: yeah ? phd a: uh , i think th that may be due to the fact that { comment } adam ran out of digits , { comment } uh , and did n't have time to regenerate any . professor c: oh ! oh ! i guess it 's well there 's no real reason to write our names on here then , phd a: yeah , if you want to put your credit card numbers and , uh professor c: is there ? grad e: oh , no ? professor c: or do did any do we need the names for the other stuff , phd a: uh , yeah , i do need your names and and the time , and all that , professor c: or ? oh , ok . phd a: cuz we put that into the `` key `` files . professor c: oh , ok . phd a: um . but w professor c: ok . phd a: that 's why we have the forms , uh , even if there are no digits . professor c: ok , yeah , i did n't notice this . i 'm sitting here and i was i was about to read them too . it 's a , uh , blank sheet of paper . phd a: so i guess we 're we 're done . professor c: yeah , yeah , i 'll do my credit card number later . ok .

the professor said that people adamantly insist on going in with a brain damaged system , overlooking straight forward solutions . he thought that the lag should not be too long for the task .

summarize the discussion about dealing with smaller features of recordings </s> phd a: ok , we 're on . professor c: ok , what are we talking about today ? phd b: i do n't know . do you have news from the conference talk ? uh , that was programmed for yesterday i guess . professor c: uh phd d: yesterday professor c: uh phd d: yesterday morning on video conference . professor c: uh , phd b: well professor c: oh , i 'm sorry . grad e: oh . conference call . professor c: i know now i know what you 're talking about . no , nobody 's told me anything . phd b: alright . phd a: oh , this was the , uh , talk where they were supposed to try to decide phd b: to to decide what to do , phd a: ah , right . phd b: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor c: yeah . no , that would have been a good thing to find out before this meeting , that 's . no , i have no i have no idea . um , uh , so i mean , let 's let 's assume for right now that we 're just kind of plugging on ahead , phd b: yeah . professor c: because even if they tell us that , uh , the rules are different , uh , we 're still interested in doing what we 're doing . so what are you doing ? phd b: mm - hmm . uh , well , we 've a little bit worked on trying to see , uh , what were the bugs and the problem with the latencies . phd d: to improve phd b: so , we took first we took the lda filters and , uh , we designed new filters , using uh recursive filters actually . professor c: so when you say `` we `` , is that something sunil is doing or is that ? phd b: i 'm sorry ? professor c: who is doing that ? phd b: uh , us . yeah . professor c: oh , oh . oh , ok . phd b: so we took the filters the fir filters and we { comment } designed , uh , iir filters that have the same frequency response . phd d: but professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: well , similar , but that have shorter delays . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: so they had two filters , one for the low frequency bands and another for the high frequency bands . and so we redesigned two filters . and the low frequency band has sixty - four milliseconds of delay , and the high frequency band filter has something like eleven milliseconds compared to the two hundred milliseconds of the iir filters . but it 's not yet test . so we have the filters but we still have to implement a routine that does recursive filtering professor c: ok . phd b: and professor c: you you had a discussion with sunil about this though ? phd b: no . no . professor c: uh - huh . yeah , you should talk with him . phd b: yeah , yeah . professor c: yeah . no , i mean , because the the the the whole problem that happened before was coordination , phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: right ? so so you need to discuss with him what we 're doing , phd b: yeah . professor c: uh , cuz they could be doing the same thing and or something . phd b: mm - hmm . uh , i yeah , i do n't know if th that 's what they were trying to they were trying to do something different like taking , uh well , using filter that takes only a past professor c: right . phd b: and this is just a little bit different . but i will i will send him an email and tell him exactly what we are doing , so . professor c: yeah , yeah . um , phd b: um , professor c: i mean we just we just have to be in contact more . i think that the the fact that we we did that with had that thing with the latencies was indicative of the fact that there was n't enough communication . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: so . phd b: alright . professor c: ok . phd b: um , yeah . well , there is w one , um , remark about these filters , that they do n't have a linear phase . so , professor c: right . phd b: well , i do n't know , perhaps it perhaps it does n't hurt because the phase is almost linear but . um , and so , yeah , for the delay i gave you here , it 's it 's , uh , computed on the five hertz modulation frequency , which is the mmm , well , the most important for speech so . uh , this is the first thing . professor c: so that would be , uh , a reduction of a hundred and thirty - six milliseconds , phd d: the low f f phd b: yeah . professor c: which , uh what was the total we ended up with through the whole system ? phd b: three hundred and thirty . professor c: so that would be within ? phd b: yeah , but there are other points actually , uh , which will perhaps add some more delay . is that some other other stuff in the process were perhaps not very um perf well , not very correct , like the downsampling which w was simply dropping frames . professor c: yeah . phd b: um , so we will try also to add a nice downsampling having a filter that that professor c: uh - huh . phd b: well , a low - pass filter at at twenty - five hertz . uh , because wh when when we look at the lda filters , well , they are basically low - pass but they leave a lot of what 's above twenty - five hertz . professor c: yeah . phd b: um , and so , yeah , this will be another filter which would add ten milliseconds again . professor c: yeah . phd b: um , yeah , and then there 's a third thing , is that , um , basically the way on - line normalization was done uh , is just using this recursion on on the um , um , on the feature stream , professor c: yeah . phd b: and but this is a filter , so it has also a delay . uh , and when we look at this filter actually it has a delay of eighty - five milliseconds . so if we professor c: eighty - five . phd b: yeah . if we want to be very correct , so if we want to the estimation of the mean t t to to be well , the right estimation of the mean , we have to t to take eighty - five milliseconds in the future . mmm . professor c: hmm ! that 's a little bit of a problem . phd b: yeah . um , but , well , when we add up everything it 's it will be alright . we would be at six so , sixty - five , plus ten , plus for the downsampling , plus eighty - five for the on - line normalization . so it 's professor c: uh , phd b: plus plus eighty for the neural net and pca . professor c: yeah , but then there 's oh . phd b: so it would be around two hundred and forty so , well , professor c: just just barely in there . phd b: plus plus the frames , but it 's ok . phd a: what 's the allowable ? professor c: two - fifty , unless they changed the rules . phd b: hmm . professor c: which there is there 's some discussion of . phd a: what were they thinking of changing it to ? professor c: but phd b: yeah . professor c: uh , well the people who had very low latency want it to be low uh , very very very narrow , uh , latency bound . and the people who have longer latency do n't . so . phd a: huh . phd b: so , yeah . professor c: unfortunately we 're the main ones with long latency , but phd a: ah ! professor c: but , uh , phd b: yeah , and basically the best proposal had something like thirty or forty milliseconds of latency . professor c: you know , it 's yeah . phd b: so . well . professor c: yeah , so they were basically i mean , they were more or less trading computation for performance and we were , uh , trading latency for performance . and they were dealing with noise explicitly and we were n't , and so i think of it as complementary , that if we can put the phd a: think of it as what ? professor c: complementary . phd a: hmm . professor c: i think the best systems so , uh , everything that we did in in a way it was it was just adamantly insisting on going in with a brain damaged system , which is something actually , we 've done a lot over the last thirteen years . uh , which is we say , well this is the way we should do it . and then we do it . and then someone else does something that 's straight forward . so , w th w this was a test that largely had additive noise and we did we adde did absolutely nothing explicitly to handle ad additive noise . phd a: right . professor c: we just , uh , you know , trained up systems to be more discriminant . and , uh , we did this , uh , rasta - like filtering which was done in the log domain and was tending to handle convolutional noise . we did we actually did nothing about additive noise . so , um , the , uh , spectral sub subtraction schemes a couple places did seem to seem to do a nice job . and so , uh , we 're talking about putting putting some of that in while still keeping some of our stuff . i think you should be able to end up with a system that 's better than both but clearly the way that we 're operating for this other stuff does involved some latency to to get rid of most of that latency . to get down to forty or fifty milliseconds we 'd have to throw out most of what we 're doing . and and , uh , i do n't think there 's any good reason for it in the application actually . i mean , you 're you 're you 're speaking to a recognizer on a remote server and , uh , having a a a quarter second for some processing to clean it up . it does n't seem like it 's that big a deal . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: these are n't large vocabulary things so the decoder should n't take a really long time , and . phd a: and i do n't think anybody 's gon na notice the difference between a quarter of a second of latency and thirty milliseconds of latency . professor c: so . no . what what does wa was your experience when you were doing this stuff with , uh , the the the surgical , uh , uh , microscopes and so forth . um , how long was it from when somebody , uh , finished an utterance to when , uh , something started happening ? phd a: um , we had a silence detector , so we would look for the end of an utterance based on the silence detector . professor c: mm - hmm . phd a: and i i ca n't remember now off the top of my head how many frames of silence we had to detect before we would declare it to be the end of an utterance . professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: um , but it was , uh , i would say it was probably around the order of two hundred and fifty milliseconds . professor c: yeah , and that 's when you 'd start doing things . phd a: yeah , we did the back trace at that point to get the answer . professor c: yeah . of course that did n't take too long at that point . phd a: no , no it was pretty quick . professor c: yeah . phd a: so professor c: yeah , so you you so you had a phd a: this w professor c: so you had a a quarter second delay before , uh , plus some little processing time , phd a: right . professor c: and then the the microscope would start moving or something . phd a: right . professor c: yeah . phd a: right . professor c: and there 's physical inertia there , so probably the the motion itself was all phd a: and it felt to , uh , the users that it was instantaneous . i mean , as fast as talking to a person . it th i do n't think anybody ever complained about the delay . professor c: yeah , so you would think as long as it 's under half a second or something . phd a: yeah . professor c: uh , i 'm not an expert on that phd a: yeah . professor c: but . phd a: i do n't remember the exact numbers but it was something like that . professor c: yeah . phd a: i do n't think you can really tell . a person i do n't think a person can tell the difference between , uh , you know , a quarter of a second and a hundred milliseconds , and i 'm not even sure if we can tell the difference between a quarter of a second and half a second . professor c: yeah . phd a: i mean it just it feels so quick . professor c: yeah . i mean , basically if you yeah , if you said , uh , um , `` what 's the , uh , uh what 's the shortest route to the opera ? `` and it took half a second to get back to you , phd a: yeah . professor c: i mean , it would be f i mean , it might even be too abrupt . you might have to put in a s a s a delay . phd a: yeah . i mean , it may feel different than talking to a person professor c: yeah . phd a: because when we talk to each other we tend to step on each other 's utterances . so like if i 'm asking you a question , you may start answering before i 'm even done . professor c: yeah . phd a: so it it would probably feel different professor c: right . phd a: but i do n't think it would feel slow . professor c: right . well , anyway , i mean , i think we could cut we know what else , we could cut down on the neural net time by by , uh , playing around a little bit , going more into the past , or something like that . we t we talked about that . phd a: so is the latency from the neural net caused by how far ahead you 're looking ? professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: and there 's also well , there 's the neural net and there 's also this , uh , uh , multi - frame , uh , uh , klt . phd a: was n't there was it in the , uh , recurrent neural nets where they were n't looking ahead at all ? professor c: they were n't looking ahead much . they p they looked ahead a little bit . phd a: a little bit . ok . professor c: yeah . yeah , i mean , you could do this with a recurrent net . and and then but you also could just , um , i mean , we have n't experimented with this but i imagine you could , um , uh , predict a , uh um , a label , uh , from more in the past than in than than in the future . i mean , we 've d we 've done some stuff with that before . i think it it works ok . phd b: mm - hmm . phd a: we 've always had usually we used the symmetric windows professor c: so . phd a: but i do n't think professor c: yeah , but we 've but we played a little bit with with asymmetric , guys . phd a: yeah . professor c: you can do it . so . so , that 's what that 's what you 're busy with , s messing around with this , phd b: uh , yeah . professor c: yeah . and , uh , phd d: also we were thinking to to , uh , apply the eh , spectral subtraction from ericsson phd b: yeah . professor c: uh - huh . phd d: and to to change the contextual klt for lda . phd a: change the what ? phd d: the contextual klt . phd a: i 'm missing that last word . context professor c: k klt . phd a: klt . phd d: klt grad e: oh . klt . phd a: oh , klt . professor c: mm - hmm . phd a: uh - huh . phd d: klt , i 'm sorry . uh , to change and use lda discriminative . phd b: yeah . professor c: uh - huh . phd d: but i do n't know . professor c: uh , phd a: what is the advantage of that ? phd d: uh phd b: well , it 's that by the for the moment we have , uh , something that 's discriminant and nonlinear . and the other is linear but it 's not discriminant at all . well , it 's it 's a linear transformation , that uh professor c: so at least just to understand maybe what the difference was between how much you were getting from just putting the frames together and how much you 're getting from the discriminative , what the nonlinearity does for you or does n't do for you . just to understand it a little better i guess . phd b: mmm . well uh yeah . actually what we want to do , perhaps it 's to replace to to have something that 's discriminant but linear , also . and to see if it if it improves ov over over the non - discriminant linear transformation . phd a: hmm . phd b: and if the neural net is better than this or , well . so . professor c: yeah , well , that 's what i meant , is to see whether whether it having the neural net really buys you anything . phd b: ye mmm . professor c: uh , i mean , it doe did look like it buys you something over just the klt . phd b: yeah . professor c: but maybe it 's just the discrimination and and maybe yeah , maybe the nonlinear discrimination is n't necessary . phd d: s maybe . phd b: yeah . mm - hmm . professor c: could be . phd d: maybe . professor c: good good to know . but the other part you were saying was the spectral subtraction , so you just kind of , uh phd b: yeah . professor c: at what stage do you do that ? do you you 're doing that , um ? phd b: so it would be on the um on on the mel frequency bands , phd d: we was think phd b: so . yeah , be before everything . professor c: ok , phd d: yeah , professor c: so just do that on the mel f phd d: we no nnn we we was thinking to do before after vad or phd b: yeah , phd d: oh , { comment } we do n't know exactly when it 's better . phd b: um phd d: before after vad or professor c: so so you know that that that the way that they 're phd d: and then phd b: um . professor c: uh , one thing that would be no good to find out about from this conference call is that what they were talking about , what they 're proposing doing , was having a third party , um , run a good vad , and and determine boundaries . phd d: yeah . professor c: and then given those boundaries , then have everybody do the recognition . phd d: begin to work . professor c: the reason for that was that , um , uh if some one p one group put in the vad and another did n't , uh , or one had a better vad than the other since that they 're not viewing that as being part of the the task , and that any any manufacturer would put a bunch of effort into having some s kind of good speech - silence detection . it still would n't be perfect but i mean , e the argument was `` let 's not have that be part of this test . `` `` let 's let 's separate that out . `` and so , uh , i guess they argued about that yesterday and , yeah , i 'm sorry , i do n't do n't know the answer but we should find out . i 'm sure we 'll find out soon what they , uh what they decided . so , uh yeah , so there 's the question of the vad but otherwise it 's it 's on the the , uh the mel fil filter bank , uh , energies i guess ? phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: mmm , yeah . professor c: you do doing the ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: and you 're you 're subtracting in the in the in the i guess it 's power power domain , uh , or or magnitude domain . probably power domain , right ? phd b: i guess it 's power domain , yeah . professor c: why phd b: i do n't remember exactly . professor c: yeah , phd d: i do n't remember . phd b: but yeah , so it 's before everything else , professor c: yep . phd b: and professor c: i mean , if you look at the theory , it 's it should be in the power domain but but , uh , i 've seen implementations where people do it in the magnitude domain phd b: yeah . professor c: and phd b: mmm . professor c: i have asked people why and they shrug their shoulders and say , `` oh , it works . `` so . phd b: yeah . professor c: uh , and there 's this i guess there 's this mysterious i mean people who do this a lot i guess have developed little tricks of the trade . i mean , there 's there 's this , um you do n't just subtract the the estimate of the noise spectrum . you subtract th that times phd b: a little bit more and yeah . professor c: or or less , or phd a: really ? phd b: yeah . phd a: huh ! professor c: yeah . phd b: and generated this this , professor c: uh . phd b: um , so you have the estimation of the power spectra of the noise , and you multiply this by a factor which is depend dependent on the snr . so . well . phd d: hmm , maybe . phd a: hmm ! phd b: when the speech lev when the signal level is more important , compared to this noise level , the coefficient is small , and around one . but when the power le the s signal level is uh small compared to the noise level , the coefficient is more important . and this reduce actually the music musical noise , phd a: oh ! phd b: uh which is more important during silence portions , phd a: uh - huh . phd b: when the s the energy 's small . phd a: hmm ! phd b: so there are tricks like this but , mmm . phd a: hmm ! professor c: yeah . phd b: yeah . professor c: so . phd a: is the estimate of the noise spectrum a running estimate ? or phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd b: yeah . professor c: well , that 's i mean , that 's what differs from different different tasks and different s uh , spectral subtraction methods . phd a: hmm ! professor c: i mean , if if you have , uh , fair assurance that , uh , the noise is is quite stationary , then the smartest thing to do is use as much data as possible to estimate the noise , get a much better estimate , and subtract it off . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: but if it 's varying at all , which is gon na be the case for almost any real situation , you have to do it on - line , uh , with some forgetting factor or something . phd a: so do you is there some long window that extends into the past over which you calculate the average ? professor c: well , there 's a lot of different ways of computing the noise spectrum . so one of the things that , uh , hans - guenter hirsch did , uh and pas and other people actually , he 's he was n't the only one i guess , was to , uh , take some period of of of speech and in each band , uh , develop a histogram . so , to get a decent histogram of these energies takes at least a few seconds really . but , uh i mean you can do it with a smaller amount but it 's pretty rough . and , um , in fact i think the nist standard method of determining signal - to - noise ratio is based on this . phd a: a couple seconds ? professor c: so no , no , it 's based on this kind of method , phd a: hmm . professor c: this histogram method . so you have a histogram . now , if you have signal and you have noise , you basically have these two bumps in the histogram , which you could approximate as two gaussians . phd a: but wh do n't they overlap sometimes ? professor c: oh , yeah . phd a: ok . professor c: so you have a mixture of two gaussians . phd a: yeah . professor c: right ? and you can use em to figure out what it is . you know . phd a: yeah . professor c: so so basically now you have this mixture of two gaussians , you you n know what they are , and , uh i mean , sorry , you estimate what they are , and , uh , so this gives you what the signal is and what the noise e energy is in that band in the spectrum . and then you look over the whole thing and now you have a noise spectrum . so , uh , hans - guenter hirsch and others have used that kind of method . and the other thing to do is which is sort of more trivial and obvious { comment } is to , uh , uh , determine through magical means that that , uh , there 's no speech in some period , and then see what the spectrum is . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , but , you know , it 's that that that 's tricky to do . it has mistakes . uh , and if you 've got enough time , uh , this other method appears to be somewhat more reliable . uh , a variant on that for just determining signal - to - noise ratio is to just , uh you can do a w a uh an iterative thing , em - like thing , to determine means only . i guess it is em still , but just just determine the means only . do n't worry about the variances . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and then you just use those mean values as being the the , uh uh signal - to - noise ratio in that band . phd a: but what is the it seems like this kind of thing could add to the latency . i mean , depending on where the window was that you used to calculate the signal - to - noise ratio . phd b: yeah , sure . but mmm . professor c: not necessarily . cuz if you do n't look into the future , right ? phd a: ok , well that i guess that was my question , professor c: if you just yeah phd a: yeah . professor c: i mean , if you just if you you , uh a at the beginning you have some phd a: guess . professor c: esti some guess and and , uh , uh phd b: yeah , but it professor c: it 's an interesting question . i wonder how they did do it ? phd b: actually , it 's a mmm if - if you want to have a good estimation on non - stationary noise you have to look in the in the future . i mean , if you take your window and build your histogram in this window , um , what you can expect is to have an estimation of th of the noise in in the middle of the window , not at the end . so professor c: well , yeah , phd b: the but but people professor c: but what does what what what does alcatel do ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: and and france telecom . phd b: the they just look in the past . i guess it works because the noise are , uh pret uh , almost stationary professor c: pretty stationary . grad e: pretty stationary , phd b: but , um professor c: well , the thing , e e e e grad e: yeah . professor c: yeah , y i mean , you 're talking about non - stationary noise but i think that spectral subtraction is rarely is is not gon na work really well for for non - stationary noise , phd b: well , if y if you have a good estimation of the noise , professor c: you know ? phd b: yeah , because well it it has to work . professor c: but it 's hard to phd b: i professor c: but that 's hard to do . phd b: yeah , that 's hard to do . yeah . professor c: yeah . so so i think that that what what is wh what 's more common is that you 're going to be helped with r slowly varying or stationary noise . phd b: but mm - hmm . professor c: that 's what spectral subtraction will help with , practically speaking . phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: if it varies a lot , to get a if if to get a good estimate you need a few seconds of speech , even if it 's centered , right ? phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: if you need a few seconds to get a decent estimate but it 's changed a lot in a few seconds , then it , you know , i it 's kind of a problem . phd b: yeah . professor c: i mean , imagine e five hertz is the middle of the of the speech modulation spectrum , phd b: mmm . professor c: right ? so imagine a jack hammer going at five hertz . phd b: yeah , that 's professor c: i mean , good good luck . so , phd b: so in this case , yeah , sure , you can not professor c: yeah . phd b: but i think y um , hirsch does experiment with windows of like between five hundred milliseconds and one second . and well , five hundred wa was not so bad . i mean and he worked on non - stationary noises , like noise modulated with well , wi with amplitude modulations and things like that , phd a: were his , uh , windows centered around the phd b: and but um , yeah . well , i think yeah . well , in in the paper he showed that actually the estimation of the noise is is delayed . well , it 's there is you you have to center the window , yeah . professor c: yeah . phd b: mmm . professor c: no , i understand it 's better to do but i just think that that , uh , for real noises wh what what 's most likely to happen is that there 'll be some things that are relatively stationary phd b: mmm . professor c: where you can use one or another spectral subtraction thing phd b: yeah . professor c: and other things where it 's not so stationary and i mean , you can always pick something that that falls between your methods , phd b: hmm . professor c: uh , uh , but i do n't know if , you know , if sinusoidally , uh , modul amplitude modulated noise is is sort of a big problem in in in practice . phd b: yeah . professor c: i think that it 's uh phd a: we could probably get a really good estimate of the noise if we just went to the noise files , and built the averages from them . professor c: yeah . well . phd b: what what do you mean ? professor c: just cheat you 're saying , cheat . phd b: but if the if the noise is stationary perhaps you do n't even need some kind of noise estimation algorithm . professor c: yeah . yeah . phd b: we just take th th th the beginning of the utterance and professor c: oh , yeah , sure . phd b: i i know p i do n't know if people tried this for aurora . phd d: it 's the same . phd b: well , everybody seems to use some kind of adaptive , well , scheme professor c: but but phd d: yeah . phd b: but , phd d: a dictionary . phd b: is it very useful professor c: you know , stationary phd a: very slow adaptation . phd b: and is the c phd a: th professor c: right , the word `` stationary `` is has a very precise statistical meaning . but , you know , in in signal - processing really what we 're talking about i think is things that change slowly , uh , compared with our our processing techniques . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: so if you 're driving along in a car i i would think that most of the time the nature of the noise is going to change relatively slowly . it 's not gon na stay absolute the same . if you if you check it out , uh , five minutes later you may be in a different part of the road phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: or whatever . but it 's it 's i i i using the local characteristics in time , is probably going to work pretty well . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: but you could get hurt a lot if you just took some something from the beginning of all the speech , of , you know , an hour of speech and then later phd b: yeah . professor c: uh , so they may be you know , may be overly , uh , complicated for for this test but but but , uh , i do n't know . but what you 're saying , you know , makes sense , though . i mean , if possible you should n't you should you should make it , uh , the center of the center of the window . but uh , we 're already having problems with these delay , uh delay issues . phd b: yeah , so . professor c: so , uh , we 'll have to figure ways without it . um , phd a: if they 're going to provide a , uh , voice activity detector that will tell you the boundaries of the speech , then , could n't you just go outside those boundaries and do your estimate there ? professor c: oh , yeah . you bet . yeah . so i i imagine that 's what they 're doing , right ? is they 're they 're probably looking in nonspeech sections and getting some , uh phd b: yeah , they have some kind of threshold on on the previous estimate , and so . yeah . i think . yeah , i think ericsson used this kind of threshold . yeah , so , they h they have an estimate of the noise level and they put a threshold like six or ten db above , and what 's under this threshold is used to update the estimate . is is that right phd d: yeah . phd b: or ? phd d: i think so . phd b: so it 's it 's phd d: i have not here the proposal . phd b: yeah . it 's like saying what 's under the threshold is silence , professor c: does france telecom do this phd b: and grad e: hmm . professor c: does france telecom do th do the same thing ? more or less ? phd b: i d i y you know , perhaps ? phd d: no . i do i have not here the proposal . professor c: ok . um , ok , if we 're we 're done done with that , uh , let 's see . uh , maybe we can talk about a couple other things briefly , just , uh , things that that we 've been chatting about but have n't made it into these meetings yet . so you 're coming up with your quals proposal , and , uh wan na just give a two three minute summary of what you 're planning on doing ? grad e: oh , um , two , three , it can be shorter than that . professor c: yeah . grad e: um . well , i 've i 've talked to some of you already . um , but i 'm , uh , looking into extending the work done by larry saul and john allen and uh mazin rahim . um , they they have a system that 's , uh , a multi - band , um , system but their multi - band is is a little different than the way that we 've been doing multi - band in the past , where um where we 've been @ @ { comment } uh taking um sub - band features and i training up these neural nets and on on phonetic targets , and then combining them some somehow down the line , um , they 're they 're taking sub - band features and , um , training up a detector that detects for , um , these phonetic features for example , um , he presents um , uh , a detector to detect sonorance . and so what what it basically is is , um it 's there 's at the lowest level , there it 's it 's an or ga i mean , it 's an and gate . so , uh , on each sub - band you have several independent tests , to test whether um , there 's the existence of sonorance in a sub - band . and then , um , it c it 's combined by a soft and gate . and at the at the higher level , for every if , um the higher level there 's a soft or gate . uh , so if if this detector detects um , the presence of of sonorance in any of the sub - bands , then the detect uh , the or gate at the top says , `` ok , well this frame has evidence of sonorance . `` phd a: what are what are some of the low level detectors that they use ? grad e: and these are all oh , ok . well , the low level detectors are logistic regressions . um , and the , uh professor c: so that , by the way , basically is a is one of the units in our in our our neural network . grad e: the one o professor c: so that 's all it is . it 's a sig it 's a sigmoid , grad e: yeah . professor c: uh , with weighted sum at the input , phd a: hmm . professor c: which you train by gradient descent . grad e: right . yeah , so he uses , um , an em algorithm to to um train up these um parameters for the logistic regression . professor c: well , actually , yeah , grad e: the professor c: so i was using em to get the targets . so so you have this this this and gate what we were calling an and gate , but it 's a product product rule thing at the output . and then he uses , uh , i u and then feeding into that are i 'm sorry , there 's it 's an or at the output , is n't it ? yeah , grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: so that 's the product . and then , um , then he has each of these and things . and , um , but so they 're little neural neural units . um , and , um , they have to have targets . and so the targets come from em . phd a: and so are each of these , low level detectors { comment } are they , uh are these something that you decide ahead of time , like `` i 'm going to look for this particular feature or i 'm going to look at this frequency , `` or what what what are they looking at ? grad e: um phd a: what are their inputs ? grad e: uh right , so the ok , so at each for each sub - band { comment } there are basically , uh , several measures of snr and and correlation . phd a: ah , ok , ok . grad e: um , um and he said there 's like twenty of these per per sub - band . um , and for for every s every sub - band , e you you just pick ahead of time , um , `` i 'm going to have like five i independent logistic tests . `` phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: and you initialize these parameters , um , in some some way and use em to come up with your training targets for a for the the low - level detectors . phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: and then , once you get that done , you you you train the whole whole thing on maximum likelihood . um , and h he shows that using this this method to detect sonorance is it 's very robust compared to , um to typical , uh , full - band gaussian mixtures um estimations of of sonorance . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad e: and , uh so so that 's just that 's just one detector . so you can imagine building many of these detectors on different features . you get enough of these detectors together , um , then you have enough information to do , um , higher level discrimination , for example , discriminating between phones phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: and then you keep working your way up until you you build a full recognizer . phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: so , um , that 's that 's the direction which i 'm i 'm thinking about going in my quals . phd a: cool . professor c: you know , it has a number of properties that i really liked . i mean , one is the going towards , um , using narrow band information for , uh , ph phonetic features of some sort rather than just , uh , immediately going for the the typical sound units . phd a: right . professor c: another thing i like about it is that you t this thing is going to be trained explicitly trained for a product of errors rule , which is what , uh , allen keeps pointing out that fletcher observed in the twenties , phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , for people listening to narrow band stuff . that 's friday 's talk , by the way . and then , um , uh , the third thing i like about it is , uh , and we 've played around with this in a different kind of way a little bit but it has n't been our dominant way of of operating anything , um , this issue of where the targets come from . so in our case when we 've been training it multi - band things , the way we get the targets for the individual bands is , uh , that we get the phonetic label for the sound there phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and we say , `` ok , we train every `` what this is saying is , ok , that 's maybe what our ultimate goal is or not ultimate but penultimate goal is getting these these small sound units . but but , um , along the way how much should we , uh uh , what should we be training these intermediate things for ? i mean , because , uh , we do n't know uh , that this is a particularly good feature . i mean , there 's no way , uh someone in the audience yesterday was asking , `` well could n't you have people go through and mark the individual bands and say where the where it was sonorant or not ? `` phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: but , you know , i think having a bunch of people listening to critical band wide , uh , chunks of speech trying to determine whether { comment } i think it 'd be impossible . grad e: ouch . professor c: it 's all gon na sound like like sine waves to you , more or less . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: i mean well not i mean , it 's g all g narrow band uh , i i m i think it 's very hard for someone to to a person to make that determination . so , um , um , we do n't really know how those should be labeled . it could sh be that you should , um , not be paying that much attention to , uh , certain bands for certain sounds , uh , in order to get the best result . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: so , um , what we have been doing there , just sort of mixing it all together , is certainly much much cruder than that . we trained these things up on the on the , uh the final label . now we have i guess done experiments you 've probably done stuff where you have , um , done separate , uh , viterbis on the different grad e: yeah . forced alignment on the sub - band labels ? professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah . professor c: you 've done that . did did that help at all ? grad e: um , it helps for one or t one iteration but um , anything after that it does n't help . professor c: so so that may or may t it that aspect of what he 's doing may or may not be helpful because in a sense that 's the same sort of thing . you 're taking global information and determining what you how you should but this is this is , uh , i th i think a little more direct . phd a: how did they measure the performance of their detector ? professor c: and well , he 's look he 's just actually looking at , uh , the confusions between sonorant and non - sonorant . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: so he has n't applied it to recognition or if he did he did n't talk about it . it 's it 's just and one of the concerns in the audience , actually , was that that , um , the , uh , uh he he did a comparison to , uh , you know , our old foil , the the nasty old standard recognizer with mel mel filter bank at the front , and h m ms , and and so forth . and , um , it did n't do nearly as well , especially in in noise . but the one of the good questions in the audience was , well , yeah , but that was n't trained for that . i mean , this use of a very smooth , uh , spectral envelope is something that , you know , has evolved as being generally a good thing for speech recognition but if you knew that what you were gon na do is detect sonorants or not so sonorants and non - sonorants is is is almost like voiced - unvoiced , except i guess that the voiced stops are are also called `` obstruents `` . uh , so it 's it 's uh , but with the exception of the stops i guess it 's pretty much the same as voiced - unvoiced , phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: right ? so so um . so , um , if you knew you were doing that , if you were doing something say for a a , uh a a vocoder , you would n't use the same kind of features . you would use something that was sensitive to the periodicity and and not just the envelope . uh , and so in that sense it was an unfair test . um , so i think that the questioner was right . it it was in that sense an unfair test . nonetheless , it was one that was interesting because , uh , this is what we are actually using for speech recognition , these smooth envelopes . and this says that perhaps even , you know , trying to use them in the best way that we can , that that that we ordinarily do , with , you know , gaussian mixtures and h m ms { comment } and so forth , you you do n't , uh , actually do that well on determining whether something is sonorant or not . phd a: did n't they professor c: which means you 're gon na make errors between similar sounds that are son sonorant or obstruent . phd a: did n't they also do some kind of an oracle experiment where they said `` if we could detect the sonorants perfectly and then show how it would improve speech recognition ? i thought i remember hearing about an experiment like that . professor c: the - these same people ? phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: i do n't remember that . phd a: hmm . professor c: that would that 's you 're right , that 's exactly the question to follow up this discussion , is suppose you did that , uh , got that right . um , yeah . phd a: hmm . phd b: what could be the other low level detectors , i mean , for { comment } other kind of features , or ? in addition to detecting sonorants or ? th - that 's what you want to to to go for also grad e: um phd b: or ? grad e: what t oh , build other other detectors on different phonetic features ? phd b: other low level detectors ? yeah . grad e: um , uh let 's see , um , yeah , i d i do n't know . e um , um , i mean , w easiest thing would be to go go do some voicing stuff but that 's very similar to sonorance . phd b: mm - hmm . grad e: um , phd a: when we when we talked with john ohala the other day we made a list of some of the things that w grad e: yeah . phd a: like frication , grad e: oh ! ok . phd a: abrupt closure , grad e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: r - coloring , nasality , voicing uh . professor c: yeah , so there 's a half dozen like that that are grad e: yeah , nasality . professor c: now this was coming at it from a different angle but maybe it 's a good way to start . uh , these are things which , uh , john felt that a a , uh a human annotator would be able to reliably mark . so the sort of things he felt would be difficult for a human annotator to reliably mark would be tongue position kinds of things . grad e: oh , ok . placing stuff , phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah . phd a: there 's also things like stress . professor c: uh phd a: you can look at stress . professor c: but stress does n't , uh , fit in this thing of coming up with features that will distinguish words from one another , grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: right ? it 's a it 's a good thing to mark and will probably help us ultimate with recognition phd a: yeah , there 's a few cases where it can like permit { comment } and permit . professor c: but phd a: but that 's not very common in english . in other languages it 's more uh , important . professor c: well , yeah , but i either case you 'd write permit , right ? so you 'd get the word right . phd a: no , i 'm saying , i i e i thought you were saying that stress does n't help you distinguish between words . professor c: um , phd a: oh , i see what you 're saying . as long as you get the sequence , professor c: we 're g if we 're doing if we 're talking about transcription as opposed to something else phd a: right ? yeah . yeah , yeah , yeah . yeah . right . professor c: yeah . phd a: so where it could help is maybe at a higher level . yeah . professor c: right . grad e: like a understanding application . phd a: understanding , yeah . exactly . professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah . professor c: but that 's this afternoon 's meeting . yeah . we do n't understand anything in this meeting . yeah , so that 's yeah , that 's , you know , a neat neat thing and and , uh so . grad e: s so , um , ohala 's going to help do these , uh transcriptions of the meeting data ? phd a: uh , well i do n't know . we d we sort of did n't get that far . um , we just talked about some possible features that could be marked by humans and , um , grad e: hmm . phd a: because of having maybe some extra transcriber time we thought we could go through and mark some portion of the data for that . and , uh professor c: yeah , grad e: hmm . professor c: i mean , that 's not an immediate problem , that we do n't immediately have a lot of extra transcriber time . phd a: yeah , right . professor c: but but , uh , in the long term i guess chuck is gon na continue the dialogue with john and and , uh , and , we 'll we 'll end up doing some i think . phd a: i 'm definitely interested in this area , too , f uh , acoustic feature stuff . professor c: uh - huh . grad e: ok . phd a: so . professor c: yeah , i think it 's an interesting interesting way to go . grad e: cool . professor c: um , i say it like `` said - int `` . i think it has a number of good things . um , so , uh , y you want to talk maybe a c two or three minutes about what we 've been talking about today and other days ? grad f: ri yeah , ok , so , um , we 're interested in , um , methods for far mike speech recognition , um , mainly , uh , methods that deal with the reverberation in the far mike signal . so , um , one approach would be , um , say msg and plp , like was used in aurora one and , um , there are other approaches which actually attempt to remove the reverberation , instead of being robust to it like msg . and so we 're interested in , um , comparing the performance of um , a robust approach like msg with these , um , speech enhancement or de - reverber de - reverberation approaches . phd b: mm - hmm . grad f: and , um , it looks like we 're gon na use the meeting recorder digits data for that . phd b: and the de - reverberation algorithm , do you have can you give some more details on this or ? does it use one microphone ? grad f: o o phd b: several microphones ? does it ? grad f: ok , well , um , there was something that was done by , um , a guy named carlos , i forget his last name , { comment } who worked with hynek , who , um , professor c: avendano . grad f: ok . professor c: yeah . grad f: who , um , phd b: mm - hmm . grad f: um , it was like rasta in the sense that of it was , um , de - convolution by filtering um , except he used a longer time window , phd b: mm - hmm . grad f: like a second maybe . and the reason for that is rasta 's time window is too short to , um include the whole , um , reverberation um , i do n't know what you call it the reverberation response . i if you see wh if you see what i mean . the reverberation filter from my mouth to that mike is like it 's t got it 's too long in the in the time domain for the um for the rasta filtering to take care of it . and , um , then there are a couple of other speech enhancement approaches which have n't been tried for speech recognition yet but have just been tried for enhancement , which , um , have the assumption that um , you can do lpc um analysis of th of the signal you get at the far microphone and the , um , all pole filter that you get out of that should be good . it 's just the , um , excitation signal { comment } that is going to be distorted by the reverberation and so you can try and reconstruct a better excitation signal and , um , feed that through the i um , all pole filter and get enhanced speech with reverberation reduced . phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: there 's also this , uh , um , uh , echo cancellation stuff that we 've sort of been chasing , so , uh we have , uh and when we 're saying these digits now we do have a close microphone signal and then there 's the distant microphone signal . and you could as a kind of baseline say , `` ok , given that we have both of these , uh , we should be able to do , uh , a cancellation . `` so that , uh , um , we we , uh , essentially identify the system in between the linear time invariant system between the microphones and and and and re and invert it , uh , or or cancel it out to to some some reasonable approximation phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: through one method or another . uh , that 's not a practical thing , uh , if you have a distant mike , you do n't have a close mike ordinarily , but we thought that might make also might make a good baseline . uh , it still wo n't be perfect because there 's noise . uh , but and then there are s uh , there are single microphone methods that i think people have done for , uh for this kind of de - reverberation . do y do you know any references to any ? cuz i i w i was w w i i lead him down a a bad path on that . phd b: uh , i g i guess i guess when people are working with single microphones , they are more trying to do professor c: but . phd b: well , not not very well , there is the avendano work , professor c: right . phd b: but also trying to mmm , uh trying to f t find the de - convolution filter but in the um not in the time domain but in the uh the stream of features uh i guess . well , @ @ { comment } there there 's someone working on this on i in mons professor c: yeah , ok . phd b: so perhaps , yeah , we should try t to he 's working on this , on trying to professor c: yeah . phd b: on re reverberation , um professor c: the first paper on this is gon na have great references , i can tell already . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: it 's always good to have references , especially when reviewers read it or or one of the authors and , feel they 'll `` you 're ok , you 've r you cited me . `` phd b: so , yeah . well , he did echo cancellation and he did some fancier things like , uh , uh , training different network on different reverberation conditions and then trying to find the best one , but . well . professor c: yeah . phd b: yeah . professor c: the oth the other thing , uh , that dave was talking about earlier was , uh , uh , multiple mike things , uh , where they 're all distant . so , um , i mean , there 's there 's all this work on arrays , but the other thing is , uh , what can we do that 's cleverer that can take some advantage of only two mikes , uh , particularly if there 's an obstruction between them , as we as we have over there . phd b: if there is ? professor c: an obstruction between them . phd b: ah , yeah . professor c: it creates a shadow which is is helpful . it 's part of why you have such good directionality with , with two ears phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: even though they 're not several feet apart . for most for most people 's heads . phd a: that could help though . professor c: so that yeah , the the head , in the way , is really that 's what it 's for . it 's basically , phd a: that 's what the head 's for ? to separate the ears ? professor c: yeah , it 's to separate the ears . that 's right , yeah . yeah . uh , so . anyway , o k . uh , i think that 's that 's all we have this week . grad e: oh . professor c: and , uh , i think it 's digit time . phd a: actually the , um for some reason the digit forms are blank . professor c: yeah ? phd a: uh , i think th that may be due to the fact that { comment } adam ran out of digits , { comment } uh , and did n't have time to regenerate any . professor c: oh ! oh ! i guess it 's well there 's no real reason to write our names on here then , phd a: yeah , if you want to put your credit card numbers and , uh professor c: is there ? grad e: oh , no ? professor c: or do did any do we need the names for the other stuff , phd a: uh , yeah , i do need your names and and the time , and all that , professor c: or ? oh , ok . phd a: cuz we put that into the `` key `` files . professor c: oh , ok . phd a: um . but w professor c: ok . phd a: that 's why we have the forms , uh , even if there are no digits . professor c: ok , yeah , i did n't notice this . i 'm sitting here and i was i was about to read them too . it 's a , uh , blank sheet of paper . phd a: so i guess we 're we 're done . professor c: yeah , yeah , i 'll do my credit card number later . ok .

the team discussed how sonorance detection could constitute a low-level feature that their models detected . in one of the models , low level detectors are looking for specific sonorance features which are more robust than typical full-band gaussian mixtures .

what did the professor think about detecting smaller units of sound ? </s> phd a: ok , we 're on . professor c: ok , what are we talking about today ? phd b: i do n't know . do you have news from the conference talk ? uh , that was programmed for yesterday i guess . professor c: uh phd d: yesterday professor c: uh phd d: yesterday morning on video conference . professor c: uh , phd b: well professor c: oh , i 'm sorry . grad e: oh . conference call . professor c: i know now i know what you 're talking about . no , nobody 's told me anything . phd b: alright . phd a: oh , this was the , uh , talk where they were supposed to try to decide phd b: to to decide what to do , phd a: ah , right . phd b: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor c: yeah . no , that would have been a good thing to find out before this meeting , that 's . no , i have no i have no idea . um , uh , so i mean , let 's let 's assume for right now that we 're just kind of plugging on ahead , phd b: yeah . professor c: because even if they tell us that , uh , the rules are different , uh , we 're still interested in doing what we 're doing . so what are you doing ? phd b: mm - hmm . uh , well , we 've a little bit worked on trying to see , uh , what were the bugs and the problem with the latencies . phd d: to improve phd b: so , we took first we took the lda filters and , uh , we designed new filters , using uh recursive filters actually . professor c: so when you say `` we `` , is that something sunil is doing or is that ? phd b: i 'm sorry ? professor c: who is doing that ? phd b: uh , us . yeah . professor c: oh , oh . oh , ok . phd b: so we took the filters the fir filters and we { comment } designed , uh , iir filters that have the same frequency response . phd d: but professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: well , similar , but that have shorter delays . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: so they had two filters , one for the low frequency bands and another for the high frequency bands . and so we redesigned two filters . and the low frequency band has sixty - four milliseconds of delay , and the high frequency band filter has something like eleven milliseconds compared to the two hundred milliseconds of the iir filters . but it 's not yet test . so we have the filters but we still have to implement a routine that does recursive filtering professor c: ok . phd b: and professor c: you you had a discussion with sunil about this though ? phd b: no . no . professor c: uh - huh . yeah , you should talk with him . phd b: yeah , yeah . professor c: yeah . no , i mean , because the the the the whole problem that happened before was coordination , phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: right ? so so you need to discuss with him what we 're doing , phd b: yeah . professor c: uh , cuz they could be doing the same thing and or something . phd b: mm - hmm . uh , i yeah , i do n't know if th that 's what they were trying to they were trying to do something different like taking , uh well , using filter that takes only a past professor c: right . phd b: and this is just a little bit different . but i will i will send him an email and tell him exactly what we are doing , so . professor c: yeah , yeah . um , phd b: um , professor c: i mean we just we just have to be in contact more . i think that the the fact that we we did that with had that thing with the latencies was indicative of the fact that there was n't enough communication . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: so . phd b: alright . professor c: ok . phd b: um , yeah . well , there is w one , um , remark about these filters , that they do n't have a linear phase . so , professor c: right . phd b: well , i do n't know , perhaps it perhaps it does n't hurt because the phase is almost linear but . um , and so , yeah , for the delay i gave you here , it 's it 's , uh , computed on the five hertz modulation frequency , which is the mmm , well , the most important for speech so . uh , this is the first thing . professor c: so that would be , uh , a reduction of a hundred and thirty - six milliseconds , phd d: the low f f phd b: yeah . professor c: which , uh what was the total we ended up with through the whole system ? phd b: three hundred and thirty . professor c: so that would be within ? phd b: yeah , but there are other points actually , uh , which will perhaps add some more delay . is that some other other stuff in the process were perhaps not very um perf well , not very correct , like the downsampling which w was simply dropping frames . professor c: yeah . phd b: um , so we will try also to add a nice downsampling having a filter that that professor c: uh - huh . phd b: well , a low - pass filter at at twenty - five hertz . uh , because wh when when we look at the lda filters , well , they are basically low - pass but they leave a lot of what 's above twenty - five hertz . professor c: yeah . phd b: um , and so , yeah , this will be another filter which would add ten milliseconds again . professor c: yeah . phd b: um , yeah , and then there 's a third thing , is that , um , basically the way on - line normalization was done uh , is just using this recursion on on the um , um , on the feature stream , professor c: yeah . phd b: and but this is a filter , so it has also a delay . uh , and when we look at this filter actually it has a delay of eighty - five milliseconds . so if we professor c: eighty - five . phd b: yeah . if we want to be very correct , so if we want to the estimation of the mean t t to to be well , the right estimation of the mean , we have to t to take eighty - five milliseconds in the future . mmm . professor c: hmm ! that 's a little bit of a problem . phd b: yeah . um , but , well , when we add up everything it 's it will be alright . we would be at six so , sixty - five , plus ten , plus for the downsampling , plus eighty - five for the on - line normalization . so it 's professor c: uh , phd b: plus plus eighty for the neural net and pca . professor c: yeah , but then there 's oh . phd b: so it would be around two hundred and forty so , well , professor c: just just barely in there . phd b: plus plus the frames , but it 's ok . phd a: what 's the allowable ? professor c: two - fifty , unless they changed the rules . phd b: hmm . professor c: which there is there 's some discussion of . phd a: what were they thinking of changing it to ? professor c: but phd b: yeah . professor c: uh , well the people who had very low latency want it to be low uh , very very very narrow , uh , latency bound . and the people who have longer latency do n't . so . phd a: huh . phd b: so , yeah . professor c: unfortunately we 're the main ones with long latency , but phd a: ah ! professor c: but , uh , phd b: yeah , and basically the best proposal had something like thirty or forty milliseconds of latency . professor c: you know , it 's yeah . phd b: so . well . professor c: yeah , so they were basically i mean , they were more or less trading computation for performance and we were , uh , trading latency for performance . and they were dealing with noise explicitly and we were n't , and so i think of it as complementary , that if we can put the phd a: think of it as what ? professor c: complementary . phd a: hmm . professor c: i think the best systems so , uh , everything that we did in in a way it was it was just adamantly insisting on going in with a brain damaged system , which is something actually , we 've done a lot over the last thirteen years . uh , which is we say , well this is the way we should do it . and then we do it . and then someone else does something that 's straight forward . so , w th w this was a test that largely had additive noise and we did we adde did absolutely nothing explicitly to handle ad additive noise . phd a: right . professor c: we just , uh , you know , trained up systems to be more discriminant . and , uh , we did this , uh , rasta - like filtering which was done in the log domain and was tending to handle convolutional noise . we did we actually did nothing about additive noise . so , um , the , uh , spectral sub subtraction schemes a couple places did seem to seem to do a nice job . and so , uh , we 're talking about putting putting some of that in while still keeping some of our stuff . i think you should be able to end up with a system that 's better than both but clearly the way that we 're operating for this other stuff does involved some latency to to get rid of most of that latency . to get down to forty or fifty milliseconds we 'd have to throw out most of what we 're doing . and and , uh , i do n't think there 's any good reason for it in the application actually . i mean , you 're you 're you 're speaking to a recognizer on a remote server and , uh , having a a a quarter second for some processing to clean it up . it does n't seem like it 's that big a deal . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: these are n't large vocabulary things so the decoder should n't take a really long time , and . phd a: and i do n't think anybody 's gon na notice the difference between a quarter of a second of latency and thirty milliseconds of latency . professor c: so . no . what what does wa was your experience when you were doing this stuff with , uh , the the the surgical , uh , uh , microscopes and so forth . um , how long was it from when somebody , uh , finished an utterance to when , uh , something started happening ? phd a: um , we had a silence detector , so we would look for the end of an utterance based on the silence detector . professor c: mm - hmm . phd a: and i i ca n't remember now off the top of my head how many frames of silence we had to detect before we would declare it to be the end of an utterance . professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: um , but it was , uh , i would say it was probably around the order of two hundred and fifty milliseconds . professor c: yeah , and that 's when you 'd start doing things . phd a: yeah , we did the back trace at that point to get the answer . professor c: yeah . of course that did n't take too long at that point . phd a: no , no it was pretty quick . professor c: yeah . phd a: so professor c: yeah , so you you so you had a phd a: this w professor c: so you had a a quarter second delay before , uh , plus some little processing time , phd a: right . professor c: and then the the microscope would start moving or something . phd a: right . professor c: yeah . phd a: right . professor c: and there 's physical inertia there , so probably the the motion itself was all phd a: and it felt to , uh , the users that it was instantaneous . i mean , as fast as talking to a person . it th i do n't think anybody ever complained about the delay . professor c: yeah , so you would think as long as it 's under half a second or something . phd a: yeah . professor c: uh , i 'm not an expert on that phd a: yeah . professor c: but . phd a: i do n't remember the exact numbers but it was something like that . professor c: yeah . phd a: i do n't think you can really tell . a person i do n't think a person can tell the difference between , uh , you know , a quarter of a second and a hundred milliseconds , and i 'm not even sure if we can tell the difference between a quarter of a second and half a second . professor c: yeah . phd a: i mean it just it feels so quick . professor c: yeah . i mean , basically if you yeah , if you said , uh , um , `` what 's the , uh , uh what 's the shortest route to the opera ? `` and it took half a second to get back to you , phd a: yeah . professor c: i mean , it would be f i mean , it might even be too abrupt . you might have to put in a s a s a delay . phd a: yeah . i mean , it may feel different than talking to a person professor c: yeah . phd a: because when we talk to each other we tend to step on each other 's utterances . so like if i 'm asking you a question , you may start answering before i 'm even done . professor c: yeah . phd a: so it it would probably feel different professor c: right . phd a: but i do n't think it would feel slow . professor c: right . well , anyway , i mean , i think we could cut we know what else , we could cut down on the neural net time by by , uh , playing around a little bit , going more into the past , or something like that . we t we talked about that . phd a: so is the latency from the neural net caused by how far ahead you 're looking ? professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: and there 's also well , there 's the neural net and there 's also this , uh , uh , multi - frame , uh , uh , klt . phd a: was n't there was it in the , uh , recurrent neural nets where they were n't looking ahead at all ? professor c: they were n't looking ahead much . they p they looked ahead a little bit . phd a: a little bit . ok . professor c: yeah . yeah , i mean , you could do this with a recurrent net . and and then but you also could just , um , i mean , we have n't experimented with this but i imagine you could , um , uh , predict a , uh um , a label , uh , from more in the past than in than than in the future . i mean , we 've d we 've done some stuff with that before . i think it it works ok . phd b: mm - hmm . phd a: we 've always had usually we used the symmetric windows professor c: so . phd a: but i do n't think professor c: yeah , but we 've but we played a little bit with with asymmetric , guys . phd a: yeah . professor c: you can do it . so . so , that 's what that 's what you 're busy with , s messing around with this , phd b: uh , yeah . professor c: yeah . and , uh , phd d: also we were thinking to to , uh , apply the eh , spectral subtraction from ericsson phd b: yeah . professor c: uh - huh . phd d: and to to change the contextual klt for lda . phd a: change the what ? phd d: the contextual klt . phd a: i 'm missing that last word . context professor c: k klt . phd a: klt . phd d: klt grad e: oh . klt . phd a: oh , klt . professor c: mm - hmm . phd a: uh - huh . phd d: klt , i 'm sorry . uh , to change and use lda discriminative . phd b: yeah . professor c: uh - huh . phd d: but i do n't know . professor c: uh , phd a: what is the advantage of that ? phd d: uh phd b: well , it 's that by the for the moment we have , uh , something that 's discriminant and nonlinear . and the other is linear but it 's not discriminant at all . well , it 's it 's a linear transformation , that uh professor c: so at least just to understand maybe what the difference was between how much you were getting from just putting the frames together and how much you 're getting from the discriminative , what the nonlinearity does for you or does n't do for you . just to understand it a little better i guess . phd b: mmm . well uh yeah . actually what we want to do , perhaps it 's to replace to to have something that 's discriminant but linear , also . and to see if it if it improves ov over over the non - discriminant linear transformation . phd a: hmm . phd b: and if the neural net is better than this or , well . so . professor c: yeah , well , that 's what i meant , is to see whether whether it having the neural net really buys you anything . phd b: ye mmm . professor c: uh , i mean , it doe did look like it buys you something over just the klt . phd b: yeah . professor c: but maybe it 's just the discrimination and and maybe yeah , maybe the nonlinear discrimination is n't necessary . phd d: s maybe . phd b: yeah . mm - hmm . professor c: could be . phd d: maybe . professor c: good good to know . but the other part you were saying was the spectral subtraction , so you just kind of , uh phd b: yeah . professor c: at what stage do you do that ? do you you 're doing that , um ? phd b: so it would be on the um on on the mel frequency bands , phd d: we was think phd b: so . yeah , be before everything . professor c: ok , phd d: yeah , professor c: so just do that on the mel f phd d: we no nnn we we was thinking to do before after vad or phd b: yeah , phd d: oh , { comment } we do n't know exactly when it 's better . phd b: um phd d: before after vad or professor c: so so you know that that that the way that they 're phd d: and then phd b: um . professor c: uh , one thing that would be no good to find out about from this conference call is that what they were talking about , what they 're proposing doing , was having a third party , um , run a good vad , and and determine boundaries . phd d: yeah . professor c: and then given those boundaries , then have everybody do the recognition . phd d: begin to work . professor c: the reason for that was that , um , uh if some one p one group put in the vad and another did n't , uh , or one had a better vad than the other since that they 're not viewing that as being part of the the task , and that any any manufacturer would put a bunch of effort into having some s kind of good speech - silence detection . it still would n't be perfect but i mean , e the argument was `` let 's not have that be part of this test . `` `` let 's let 's separate that out . `` and so , uh , i guess they argued about that yesterday and , yeah , i 'm sorry , i do n't do n't know the answer but we should find out . i 'm sure we 'll find out soon what they , uh what they decided . so , uh yeah , so there 's the question of the vad but otherwise it 's it 's on the the , uh the mel fil filter bank , uh , energies i guess ? phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: mmm , yeah . professor c: you do doing the ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: and you 're you 're subtracting in the in the in the i guess it 's power power domain , uh , or or magnitude domain . probably power domain , right ? phd b: i guess it 's power domain , yeah . professor c: why phd b: i do n't remember exactly . professor c: yeah , phd d: i do n't remember . phd b: but yeah , so it 's before everything else , professor c: yep . phd b: and professor c: i mean , if you look at the theory , it 's it should be in the power domain but but , uh , i 've seen implementations where people do it in the magnitude domain phd b: yeah . professor c: and phd b: mmm . professor c: i have asked people why and they shrug their shoulders and say , `` oh , it works . `` so . phd b: yeah . professor c: uh , and there 's this i guess there 's this mysterious i mean people who do this a lot i guess have developed little tricks of the trade . i mean , there 's there 's this , um you do n't just subtract the the estimate of the noise spectrum . you subtract th that times phd b: a little bit more and yeah . professor c: or or less , or phd a: really ? phd b: yeah . phd a: huh ! professor c: yeah . phd b: and generated this this , professor c: uh . phd b: um , so you have the estimation of the power spectra of the noise , and you multiply this by a factor which is depend dependent on the snr . so . well . phd d: hmm , maybe . phd a: hmm ! phd b: when the speech lev when the signal level is more important , compared to this noise level , the coefficient is small , and around one . but when the power le the s signal level is uh small compared to the noise level , the coefficient is more important . and this reduce actually the music musical noise , phd a: oh ! phd b: uh which is more important during silence portions , phd a: uh - huh . phd b: when the s the energy 's small . phd a: hmm ! phd b: so there are tricks like this but , mmm . phd a: hmm ! professor c: yeah . phd b: yeah . professor c: so . phd a: is the estimate of the noise spectrum a running estimate ? or phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd b: yeah . professor c: well , that 's i mean , that 's what differs from different different tasks and different s uh , spectral subtraction methods . phd a: hmm ! professor c: i mean , if if you have , uh , fair assurance that , uh , the noise is is quite stationary , then the smartest thing to do is use as much data as possible to estimate the noise , get a much better estimate , and subtract it off . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: but if it 's varying at all , which is gon na be the case for almost any real situation , you have to do it on - line , uh , with some forgetting factor or something . phd a: so do you is there some long window that extends into the past over which you calculate the average ? professor c: well , there 's a lot of different ways of computing the noise spectrum . so one of the things that , uh , hans - guenter hirsch did , uh and pas and other people actually , he 's he was n't the only one i guess , was to , uh , take some period of of of speech and in each band , uh , develop a histogram . so , to get a decent histogram of these energies takes at least a few seconds really . but , uh i mean you can do it with a smaller amount but it 's pretty rough . and , um , in fact i think the nist standard method of determining signal - to - noise ratio is based on this . phd a: a couple seconds ? professor c: so no , no , it 's based on this kind of method , phd a: hmm . professor c: this histogram method . so you have a histogram . now , if you have signal and you have noise , you basically have these two bumps in the histogram , which you could approximate as two gaussians . phd a: but wh do n't they overlap sometimes ? professor c: oh , yeah . phd a: ok . professor c: so you have a mixture of two gaussians . phd a: yeah . professor c: right ? and you can use em to figure out what it is . you know . phd a: yeah . professor c: so so basically now you have this mixture of two gaussians , you you n know what they are , and , uh i mean , sorry , you estimate what they are , and , uh , so this gives you what the signal is and what the noise e energy is in that band in the spectrum . and then you look over the whole thing and now you have a noise spectrum . so , uh , hans - guenter hirsch and others have used that kind of method . and the other thing to do is which is sort of more trivial and obvious { comment } is to , uh , uh , determine through magical means that that , uh , there 's no speech in some period , and then see what the spectrum is . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , but , you know , it 's that that that 's tricky to do . it has mistakes . uh , and if you 've got enough time , uh , this other method appears to be somewhat more reliable . uh , a variant on that for just determining signal - to - noise ratio is to just , uh you can do a w a uh an iterative thing , em - like thing , to determine means only . i guess it is em still , but just just determine the means only . do n't worry about the variances . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and then you just use those mean values as being the the , uh uh signal - to - noise ratio in that band . phd a: but what is the it seems like this kind of thing could add to the latency . i mean , depending on where the window was that you used to calculate the signal - to - noise ratio . phd b: yeah , sure . but mmm . professor c: not necessarily . cuz if you do n't look into the future , right ? phd a: ok , well that i guess that was my question , professor c: if you just yeah phd a: yeah . professor c: i mean , if you just if you you , uh a at the beginning you have some phd a: guess . professor c: esti some guess and and , uh , uh phd b: yeah , but it professor c: it 's an interesting question . i wonder how they did do it ? phd b: actually , it 's a mmm if - if you want to have a good estimation on non - stationary noise you have to look in the in the future . i mean , if you take your window and build your histogram in this window , um , what you can expect is to have an estimation of th of the noise in in the middle of the window , not at the end . so professor c: well , yeah , phd b: the but but people professor c: but what does what what what does alcatel do ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: and and france telecom . phd b: the they just look in the past . i guess it works because the noise are , uh pret uh , almost stationary professor c: pretty stationary . grad e: pretty stationary , phd b: but , um professor c: well , the thing , e e e e grad e: yeah . professor c: yeah , y i mean , you 're talking about non - stationary noise but i think that spectral subtraction is rarely is is not gon na work really well for for non - stationary noise , phd b: well , if y if you have a good estimation of the noise , professor c: you know ? phd b: yeah , because well it it has to work . professor c: but it 's hard to phd b: i professor c: but that 's hard to do . phd b: yeah , that 's hard to do . yeah . professor c: yeah . so so i think that that what what is wh what 's more common is that you 're going to be helped with r slowly varying or stationary noise . phd b: but mm - hmm . professor c: that 's what spectral subtraction will help with , practically speaking . phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: if it varies a lot , to get a if if to get a good estimate you need a few seconds of speech , even if it 's centered , right ? phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: if you need a few seconds to get a decent estimate but it 's changed a lot in a few seconds , then it , you know , i it 's kind of a problem . phd b: yeah . professor c: i mean , imagine e five hertz is the middle of the of the speech modulation spectrum , phd b: mmm . professor c: right ? so imagine a jack hammer going at five hertz . phd b: yeah , that 's professor c: i mean , good good luck . so , phd b: so in this case , yeah , sure , you can not professor c: yeah . phd b: but i think y um , hirsch does experiment with windows of like between five hundred milliseconds and one second . and well , five hundred wa was not so bad . i mean and he worked on non - stationary noises , like noise modulated with well , wi with amplitude modulations and things like that , phd a: were his , uh , windows centered around the phd b: and but um , yeah . well , i think yeah . well , in in the paper he showed that actually the estimation of the noise is is delayed . well , it 's there is you you have to center the window , yeah . professor c: yeah . phd b: mmm . professor c: no , i understand it 's better to do but i just think that that , uh , for real noises wh what what 's most likely to happen is that there 'll be some things that are relatively stationary phd b: mmm . professor c: where you can use one or another spectral subtraction thing phd b: yeah . professor c: and other things where it 's not so stationary and i mean , you can always pick something that that falls between your methods , phd b: hmm . professor c: uh , uh , but i do n't know if , you know , if sinusoidally , uh , modul amplitude modulated noise is is sort of a big problem in in in practice . phd b: yeah . professor c: i think that it 's uh phd a: we could probably get a really good estimate of the noise if we just went to the noise files , and built the averages from them . professor c: yeah . well . phd b: what what do you mean ? professor c: just cheat you 're saying , cheat . phd b: but if the if the noise is stationary perhaps you do n't even need some kind of noise estimation algorithm . professor c: yeah . yeah . phd b: we just take th th th the beginning of the utterance and professor c: oh , yeah , sure . phd b: i i know p i do n't know if people tried this for aurora . phd d: it 's the same . phd b: well , everybody seems to use some kind of adaptive , well , scheme professor c: but but phd d: yeah . phd b: but , phd d: a dictionary . phd b: is it very useful professor c: you know , stationary phd a: very slow adaptation . phd b: and is the c phd a: th professor c: right , the word `` stationary `` is has a very precise statistical meaning . but , you know , in in signal - processing really what we 're talking about i think is things that change slowly , uh , compared with our our processing techniques . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: so if you 're driving along in a car i i would think that most of the time the nature of the noise is going to change relatively slowly . it 's not gon na stay absolute the same . if you if you check it out , uh , five minutes later you may be in a different part of the road phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: or whatever . but it 's it 's i i i using the local characteristics in time , is probably going to work pretty well . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: but you could get hurt a lot if you just took some something from the beginning of all the speech , of , you know , an hour of speech and then later phd b: yeah . professor c: uh , so they may be you know , may be overly , uh , complicated for for this test but but but , uh , i do n't know . but what you 're saying , you know , makes sense , though . i mean , if possible you should n't you should you should make it , uh , the center of the center of the window . but uh , we 're already having problems with these delay , uh delay issues . phd b: yeah , so . professor c: so , uh , we 'll have to figure ways without it . um , phd a: if they 're going to provide a , uh , voice activity detector that will tell you the boundaries of the speech , then , could n't you just go outside those boundaries and do your estimate there ? professor c: oh , yeah . you bet . yeah . so i i imagine that 's what they 're doing , right ? is they 're they 're probably looking in nonspeech sections and getting some , uh phd b: yeah , they have some kind of threshold on on the previous estimate , and so . yeah . i think . yeah , i think ericsson used this kind of threshold . yeah , so , they h they have an estimate of the noise level and they put a threshold like six or ten db above , and what 's under this threshold is used to update the estimate . is is that right phd d: yeah . phd b: or ? phd d: i think so . phd b: so it 's it 's phd d: i have not here the proposal . phd b: yeah . it 's like saying what 's under the threshold is silence , professor c: does france telecom do this phd b: and grad e: hmm . professor c: does france telecom do th do the same thing ? more or less ? phd b: i d i y you know , perhaps ? phd d: no . i do i have not here the proposal . professor c: ok . um , ok , if we 're we 're done done with that , uh , let 's see . uh , maybe we can talk about a couple other things briefly , just , uh , things that that we 've been chatting about but have n't made it into these meetings yet . so you 're coming up with your quals proposal , and , uh wan na just give a two three minute summary of what you 're planning on doing ? grad e: oh , um , two , three , it can be shorter than that . professor c: yeah . grad e: um . well , i 've i 've talked to some of you already . um , but i 'm , uh , looking into extending the work done by larry saul and john allen and uh mazin rahim . um , they they have a system that 's , uh , a multi - band , um , system but their multi - band is is a little different than the way that we 've been doing multi - band in the past , where um where we 've been @ @ { comment } uh taking um sub - band features and i training up these neural nets and on on phonetic targets , and then combining them some somehow down the line , um , they 're they 're taking sub - band features and , um , training up a detector that detects for , um , these phonetic features for example , um , he presents um , uh , a detector to detect sonorance . and so what what it basically is is , um it 's there 's at the lowest level , there it 's it 's an or ga i mean , it 's an and gate . so , uh , on each sub - band you have several independent tests , to test whether um , there 's the existence of sonorance in a sub - band . and then , um , it c it 's combined by a soft and gate . and at the at the higher level , for every if , um the higher level there 's a soft or gate . uh , so if if this detector detects um , the presence of of sonorance in any of the sub - bands , then the detect uh , the or gate at the top says , `` ok , well this frame has evidence of sonorance . `` phd a: what are what are some of the low level detectors that they use ? grad e: and these are all oh , ok . well , the low level detectors are logistic regressions . um , and the , uh professor c: so that , by the way , basically is a is one of the units in our in our our neural network . grad e: the one o professor c: so that 's all it is . it 's a sig it 's a sigmoid , grad e: yeah . professor c: uh , with weighted sum at the input , phd a: hmm . professor c: which you train by gradient descent . grad e: right . yeah , so he uses , um , an em algorithm to to um train up these um parameters for the logistic regression . professor c: well , actually , yeah , grad e: the professor c: so i was using em to get the targets . so so you have this this this and gate what we were calling an and gate , but it 's a product product rule thing at the output . and then he uses , uh , i u and then feeding into that are i 'm sorry , there 's it 's an or at the output , is n't it ? yeah , grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: so that 's the product . and then , um , then he has each of these and things . and , um , but so they 're little neural neural units . um , and , um , they have to have targets . and so the targets come from em . phd a: and so are each of these , low level detectors { comment } are they , uh are these something that you decide ahead of time , like `` i 'm going to look for this particular feature or i 'm going to look at this frequency , `` or what what what are they looking at ? grad e: um phd a: what are their inputs ? grad e: uh right , so the ok , so at each for each sub - band { comment } there are basically , uh , several measures of snr and and correlation . phd a: ah , ok , ok . grad e: um , um and he said there 's like twenty of these per per sub - band . um , and for for every s every sub - band , e you you just pick ahead of time , um , `` i 'm going to have like five i independent logistic tests . `` phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: and you initialize these parameters , um , in some some way and use em to come up with your training targets for a for the the low - level detectors . phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: and then , once you get that done , you you you train the whole whole thing on maximum likelihood . um , and h he shows that using this this method to detect sonorance is it 's very robust compared to , um to typical , uh , full - band gaussian mixtures um estimations of of sonorance . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad e: and , uh so so that 's just that 's just one detector . so you can imagine building many of these detectors on different features . you get enough of these detectors together , um , then you have enough information to do , um , higher level discrimination , for example , discriminating between phones phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: and then you keep working your way up until you you build a full recognizer . phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: so , um , that 's that 's the direction which i 'm i 'm thinking about going in my quals . phd a: cool . professor c: you know , it has a number of properties that i really liked . i mean , one is the going towards , um , using narrow band information for , uh , ph phonetic features of some sort rather than just , uh , immediately going for the the typical sound units . phd a: right . professor c: another thing i like about it is that you t this thing is going to be trained explicitly trained for a product of errors rule , which is what , uh , allen keeps pointing out that fletcher observed in the twenties , phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , for people listening to narrow band stuff . that 's friday 's talk , by the way . and then , um , uh , the third thing i like about it is , uh , and we 've played around with this in a different kind of way a little bit but it has n't been our dominant way of of operating anything , um , this issue of where the targets come from . so in our case when we 've been training it multi - band things , the way we get the targets for the individual bands is , uh , that we get the phonetic label for the sound there phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and we say , `` ok , we train every `` what this is saying is , ok , that 's maybe what our ultimate goal is or not ultimate but penultimate goal is getting these these small sound units . but but , um , along the way how much should we , uh uh , what should we be training these intermediate things for ? i mean , because , uh , we do n't know uh , that this is a particularly good feature . i mean , there 's no way , uh someone in the audience yesterday was asking , `` well could n't you have people go through and mark the individual bands and say where the where it was sonorant or not ? `` phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: but , you know , i think having a bunch of people listening to critical band wide , uh , chunks of speech trying to determine whether { comment } i think it 'd be impossible . grad e: ouch . professor c: it 's all gon na sound like like sine waves to you , more or less . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: i mean well not i mean , it 's g all g narrow band uh , i i m i think it 's very hard for someone to to a person to make that determination . so , um , um , we do n't really know how those should be labeled . it could sh be that you should , um , not be paying that much attention to , uh , certain bands for certain sounds , uh , in order to get the best result . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: so , um , what we have been doing there , just sort of mixing it all together , is certainly much much cruder than that . we trained these things up on the on the , uh the final label . now we have i guess done experiments you 've probably done stuff where you have , um , done separate , uh , viterbis on the different grad e: yeah . forced alignment on the sub - band labels ? professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah . professor c: you 've done that . did did that help at all ? grad e: um , it helps for one or t one iteration but um , anything after that it does n't help . professor c: so so that may or may t it that aspect of what he 's doing may or may not be helpful because in a sense that 's the same sort of thing . you 're taking global information and determining what you how you should but this is this is , uh , i th i think a little more direct . phd a: how did they measure the performance of their detector ? professor c: and well , he 's look he 's just actually looking at , uh , the confusions between sonorant and non - sonorant . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: so he has n't applied it to recognition or if he did he did n't talk about it . it 's it 's just and one of the concerns in the audience , actually , was that that , um , the , uh , uh he he did a comparison to , uh , you know , our old foil , the the nasty old standard recognizer with mel mel filter bank at the front , and h m ms , and and so forth . and , um , it did n't do nearly as well , especially in in noise . but the one of the good questions in the audience was , well , yeah , but that was n't trained for that . i mean , this use of a very smooth , uh , spectral envelope is something that , you know , has evolved as being generally a good thing for speech recognition but if you knew that what you were gon na do is detect sonorants or not so sonorants and non - sonorants is is is almost like voiced - unvoiced , except i guess that the voiced stops are are also called `` obstruents `` . uh , so it 's it 's uh , but with the exception of the stops i guess it 's pretty much the same as voiced - unvoiced , phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: right ? so so um . so , um , if you knew you were doing that , if you were doing something say for a a , uh a a vocoder , you would n't use the same kind of features . you would use something that was sensitive to the periodicity and and not just the envelope . uh , and so in that sense it was an unfair test . um , so i think that the questioner was right . it it was in that sense an unfair test . nonetheless , it was one that was interesting because , uh , this is what we are actually using for speech recognition , these smooth envelopes . and this says that perhaps even , you know , trying to use them in the best way that we can , that that that we ordinarily do , with , you know , gaussian mixtures and h m ms { comment } and so forth , you you do n't , uh , actually do that well on determining whether something is sonorant or not . phd a: did n't they professor c: which means you 're gon na make errors between similar sounds that are son sonorant or obstruent . phd a: did n't they also do some kind of an oracle experiment where they said `` if we could detect the sonorants perfectly and then show how it would improve speech recognition ? i thought i remember hearing about an experiment like that . professor c: the - these same people ? phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: i do n't remember that . phd a: hmm . professor c: that would that 's you 're right , that 's exactly the question to follow up this discussion , is suppose you did that , uh , got that right . um , yeah . phd a: hmm . phd b: what could be the other low level detectors , i mean , for { comment } other kind of features , or ? in addition to detecting sonorants or ? th - that 's what you want to to to go for also grad e: um phd b: or ? grad e: what t oh , build other other detectors on different phonetic features ? phd b: other low level detectors ? yeah . grad e: um , uh let 's see , um , yeah , i d i do n't know . e um , um , i mean , w easiest thing would be to go go do some voicing stuff but that 's very similar to sonorance . phd b: mm - hmm . grad e: um , phd a: when we when we talked with john ohala the other day we made a list of some of the things that w grad e: yeah . phd a: like frication , grad e: oh ! ok . phd a: abrupt closure , grad e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: r - coloring , nasality , voicing uh . professor c: yeah , so there 's a half dozen like that that are grad e: yeah , nasality . professor c: now this was coming at it from a different angle but maybe it 's a good way to start . uh , these are things which , uh , john felt that a a , uh a human annotator would be able to reliably mark . so the sort of things he felt would be difficult for a human annotator to reliably mark would be tongue position kinds of things . grad e: oh , ok . placing stuff , phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah . phd a: there 's also things like stress . professor c: uh phd a: you can look at stress . professor c: but stress does n't , uh , fit in this thing of coming up with features that will distinguish words from one another , grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: right ? it 's a it 's a good thing to mark and will probably help us ultimate with recognition phd a: yeah , there 's a few cases where it can like permit { comment } and permit . professor c: but phd a: but that 's not very common in english . in other languages it 's more uh , important . professor c: well , yeah , but i either case you 'd write permit , right ? so you 'd get the word right . phd a: no , i 'm saying , i i e i thought you were saying that stress does n't help you distinguish between words . professor c: um , phd a: oh , i see what you 're saying . as long as you get the sequence , professor c: we 're g if we 're doing if we 're talking about transcription as opposed to something else phd a: right ? yeah . yeah , yeah , yeah . yeah . right . professor c: yeah . phd a: so where it could help is maybe at a higher level . yeah . professor c: right . grad e: like a understanding application . phd a: understanding , yeah . exactly . professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah . professor c: but that 's this afternoon 's meeting . yeah . we do n't understand anything in this meeting . yeah , so that 's yeah , that 's , you know , a neat neat thing and and , uh so . grad e: s so , um , ohala 's going to help do these , uh transcriptions of the meeting data ? phd a: uh , well i do n't know . we d we sort of did n't get that far . um , we just talked about some possible features that could be marked by humans and , um , grad e: hmm . phd a: because of having maybe some extra transcriber time we thought we could go through and mark some portion of the data for that . and , uh professor c: yeah , grad e: hmm . professor c: i mean , that 's not an immediate problem , that we do n't immediately have a lot of extra transcriber time . phd a: yeah , right . professor c: but but , uh , in the long term i guess chuck is gon na continue the dialogue with john and and , uh , and , we 'll we 'll end up doing some i think . phd a: i 'm definitely interested in this area , too , f uh , acoustic feature stuff . professor c: uh - huh . grad e: ok . phd a: so . professor c: yeah , i think it 's an interesting interesting way to go . grad e: cool . professor c: um , i say it like `` said - int `` . i think it has a number of good things . um , so , uh , y you want to talk maybe a c two or three minutes about what we 've been talking about today and other days ? grad f: ri yeah , ok , so , um , we 're interested in , um , methods for far mike speech recognition , um , mainly , uh , methods that deal with the reverberation in the far mike signal . so , um , one approach would be , um , say msg and plp , like was used in aurora one and , um , there are other approaches which actually attempt to remove the reverberation , instead of being robust to it like msg . and so we 're interested in , um , comparing the performance of um , a robust approach like msg with these , um , speech enhancement or de - reverber de - reverberation approaches . phd b: mm - hmm . grad f: and , um , it looks like we 're gon na use the meeting recorder digits data for that . phd b: and the de - reverberation algorithm , do you have can you give some more details on this or ? does it use one microphone ? grad f: o o phd b: several microphones ? does it ? grad f: ok , well , um , there was something that was done by , um , a guy named carlos , i forget his last name , { comment } who worked with hynek , who , um , professor c: avendano . grad f: ok . professor c: yeah . grad f: who , um , phd b: mm - hmm . grad f: um , it was like rasta in the sense that of it was , um , de - convolution by filtering um , except he used a longer time window , phd b: mm - hmm . grad f: like a second maybe . and the reason for that is rasta 's time window is too short to , um include the whole , um , reverberation um , i do n't know what you call it the reverberation response . i if you see wh if you see what i mean . the reverberation filter from my mouth to that mike is like it 's t got it 's too long in the in the time domain for the um for the rasta filtering to take care of it . and , um , then there are a couple of other speech enhancement approaches which have n't been tried for speech recognition yet but have just been tried for enhancement , which , um , have the assumption that um , you can do lpc um analysis of th of the signal you get at the far microphone and the , um , all pole filter that you get out of that should be good . it 's just the , um , excitation signal { comment } that is going to be distorted by the reverberation and so you can try and reconstruct a better excitation signal and , um , feed that through the i um , all pole filter and get enhanced speech with reverberation reduced . phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: there 's also this , uh , um , uh , echo cancellation stuff that we 've sort of been chasing , so , uh we have , uh and when we 're saying these digits now we do have a close microphone signal and then there 's the distant microphone signal . and you could as a kind of baseline say , `` ok , given that we have both of these , uh , we should be able to do , uh , a cancellation . `` so that , uh , um , we we , uh , essentially identify the system in between the linear time invariant system between the microphones and and and and re and invert it , uh , or or cancel it out to to some some reasonable approximation phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: through one method or another . uh , that 's not a practical thing , uh , if you have a distant mike , you do n't have a close mike ordinarily , but we thought that might make also might make a good baseline . uh , it still wo n't be perfect because there 's noise . uh , but and then there are s uh , there are single microphone methods that i think people have done for , uh for this kind of de - reverberation . do y do you know any references to any ? cuz i i w i was w w i i lead him down a a bad path on that . phd b: uh , i g i guess i guess when people are working with single microphones , they are more trying to do professor c: but . phd b: well , not not very well , there is the avendano work , professor c: right . phd b: but also trying to mmm , uh trying to f t find the de - convolution filter but in the um not in the time domain but in the uh the stream of features uh i guess . well , @ @ { comment } there there 's someone working on this on i in mons professor c: yeah , ok . phd b: so perhaps , yeah , we should try t to he 's working on this , on trying to professor c: yeah . phd b: on re reverberation , um professor c: the first paper on this is gon na have great references , i can tell already . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: it 's always good to have references , especially when reviewers read it or or one of the authors and , feel they 'll `` you 're ok , you 've r you cited me . `` phd b: so , yeah . well , he did echo cancellation and he did some fancier things like , uh , uh , training different network on different reverberation conditions and then trying to find the best one , but . well . professor c: yeah . phd b: yeah . professor c: the oth the other thing , uh , that dave was talking about earlier was , uh , uh , multiple mike things , uh , where they 're all distant . so , um , i mean , there 's there 's all this work on arrays , but the other thing is , uh , what can we do that 's cleverer that can take some advantage of only two mikes , uh , particularly if there 's an obstruction between them , as we as we have over there . phd b: if there is ? professor c: an obstruction between them . phd b: ah , yeah . professor c: it creates a shadow which is is helpful . it 's part of why you have such good directionality with , with two ears phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: even though they 're not several feet apart . for most for most people 's heads . phd a: that could help though . professor c: so that yeah , the the head , in the way , is really that 's what it 's for . it 's basically , phd a: that 's what the head 's for ? to separate the ears ? professor c: yeah , it 's to separate the ears . that 's right , yeah . yeah . uh , so . anyway , o k . uh , i think that 's that 's all we have this week . grad e: oh . professor c: and , uh , i think it 's digit time . phd a: actually the , um for some reason the digit forms are blank . professor c: yeah ? phd a: uh , i think th that may be due to the fact that { comment } adam ran out of digits , { comment } uh , and did n't have time to regenerate any . professor c: oh ! oh ! i guess it 's well there 's no real reason to write our names on here then , phd a: yeah , if you want to put your credit card numbers and , uh professor c: is there ? grad e: oh , no ? professor c: or do did any do we need the names for the other stuff , phd a: uh , yeah , i do need your names and and the time , and all that , professor c: or ? oh , ok . phd a: cuz we put that into the `` key `` files . professor c: oh , ok . phd a: um . but w professor c: ok . phd a: that 's why we have the forms , uh , even if there are no digits . professor c: ok , yeah , i did n't notice this . i 'm sitting here and i was i was about to read them too . it 's a , uh , blank sheet of paper . phd a: so i guess we 're we 're done . professor c: yeah , yeah , i 'll do my credit card number later . ok .

the professor told the group that the current neural network had a sigmoid with a weighted sum as a low level detector . it trained using gradient descent . he suggested they delve into this further on friday .

what did grade e think about sonorance ? </s> phd a: ok , we 're on . professor c: ok , what are we talking about today ? phd b: i do n't know . do you have news from the conference talk ? uh , that was programmed for yesterday i guess . professor c: uh phd d: yesterday professor c: uh phd d: yesterday morning on video conference . professor c: uh , phd b: well professor c: oh , i 'm sorry . grad e: oh . conference call . professor c: i know now i know what you 're talking about . no , nobody 's told me anything . phd b: alright . phd a: oh , this was the , uh , talk where they were supposed to try to decide phd b: to to decide what to do , phd a: ah , right . phd b: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor c: yeah . no , that would have been a good thing to find out before this meeting , that 's . no , i have no i have no idea . um , uh , so i mean , let 's let 's assume for right now that we 're just kind of plugging on ahead , phd b: yeah . professor c: because even if they tell us that , uh , the rules are different , uh , we 're still interested in doing what we 're doing . so what are you doing ? phd b: mm - hmm . uh , well , we 've a little bit worked on trying to see , uh , what were the bugs and the problem with the latencies . phd d: to improve phd b: so , we took first we took the lda filters and , uh , we designed new filters , using uh recursive filters actually . professor c: so when you say `` we `` , is that something sunil is doing or is that ? phd b: i 'm sorry ? professor c: who is doing that ? phd b: uh , us . yeah . professor c: oh , oh . oh , ok . phd b: so we took the filters the fir filters and we { comment } designed , uh , iir filters that have the same frequency response . phd d: but professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: well , similar , but that have shorter delays . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: so they had two filters , one for the low frequency bands and another for the high frequency bands . and so we redesigned two filters . and the low frequency band has sixty - four milliseconds of delay , and the high frequency band filter has something like eleven milliseconds compared to the two hundred milliseconds of the iir filters . but it 's not yet test . so we have the filters but we still have to implement a routine that does recursive filtering professor c: ok . phd b: and professor c: you you had a discussion with sunil about this though ? phd b: no . no . professor c: uh - huh . yeah , you should talk with him . phd b: yeah , yeah . professor c: yeah . no , i mean , because the the the the whole problem that happened before was coordination , phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: right ? so so you need to discuss with him what we 're doing , phd b: yeah . professor c: uh , cuz they could be doing the same thing and or something . phd b: mm - hmm . uh , i yeah , i do n't know if th that 's what they were trying to they were trying to do something different like taking , uh well , using filter that takes only a past professor c: right . phd b: and this is just a little bit different . but i will i will send him an email and tell him exactly what we are doing , so . professor c: yeah , yeah . um , phd b: um , professor c: i mean we just we just have to be in contact more . i think that the the fact that we we did that with had that thing with the latencies was indicative of the fact that there was n't enough communication . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: so . phd b: alright . professor c: ok . phd b: um , yeah . well , there is w one , um , remark about these filters , that they do n't have a linear phase . so , professor c: right . phd b: well , i do n't know , perhaps it perhaps it does n't hurt because the phase is almost linear but . um , and so , yeah , for the delay i gave you here , it 's it 's , uh , computed on the five hertz modulation frequency , which is the mmm , well , the most important for speech so . uh , this is the first thing . professor c: so that would be , uh , a reduction of a hundred and thirty - six milliseconds , phd d: the low f f phd b: yeah . professor c: which , uh what was the total we ended up with through the whole system ? phd b: three hundred and thirty . professor c: so that would be within ? phd b: yeah , but there are other points actually , uh , which will perhaps add some more delay . is that some other other stuff in the process were perhaps not very um perf well , not very correct , like the downsampling which w was simply dropping frames . professor c: yeah . phd b: um , so we will try also to add a nice downsampling having a filter that that professor c: uh - huh . phd b: well , a low - pass filter at at twenty - five hertz . uh , because wh when when we look at the lda filters , well , they are basically low - pass but they leave a lot of what 's above twenty - five hertz . professor c: yeah . phd b: um , and so , yeah , this will be another filter which would add ten milliseconds again . professor c: yeah . phd b: um , yeah , and then there 's a third thing , is that , um , basically the way on - line normalization was done uh , is just using this recursion on on the um , um , on the feature stream , professor c: yeah . phd b: and but this is a filter , so it has also a delay . uh , and when we look at this filter actually it has a delay of eighty - five milliseconds . so if we professor c: eighty - five . phd b: yeah . if we want to be very correct , so if we want to the estimation of the mean t t to to be well , the right estimation of the mean , we have to t to take eighty - five milliseconds in the future . mmm . professor c: hmm ! that 's a little bit of a problem . phd b: yeah . um , but , well , when we add up everything it 's it will be alright . we would be at six so , sixty - five , plus ten , plus for the downsampling , plus eighty - five for the on - line normalization . so it 's professor c: uh , phd b: plus plus eighty for the neural net and pca . professor c: yeah , but then there 's oh . phd b: so it would be around two hundred and forty so , well , professor c: just just barely in there . phd b: plus plus the frames , but it 's ok . phd a: what 's the allowable ? professor c: two - fifty , unless they changed the rules . phd b: hmm . professor c: which there is there 's some discussion of . phd a: what were they thinking of changing it to ? professor c: but phd b: yeah . professor c: uh , well the people who had very low latency want it to be low uh , very very very narrow , uh , latency bound . and the people who have longer latency do n't . so . phd a: huh . phd b: so , yeah . professor c: unfortunately we 're the main ones with long latency , but phd a: ah ! professor c: but , uh , phd b: yeah , and basically the best proposal had something like thirty or forty milliseconds of latency . professor c: you know , it 's yeah . phd b: so . well . professor c: yeah , so they were basically i mean , they were more or less trading computation for performance and we were , uh , trading latency for performance . and they were dealing with noise explicitly and we were n't , and so i think of it as complementary , that if we can put the phd a: think of it as what ? professor c: complementary . phd a: hmm . professor c: i think the best systems so , uh , everything that we did in in a way it was it was just adamantly insisting on going in with a brain damaged system , which is something actually , we 've done a lot over the last thirteen years . uh , which is we say , well this is the way we should do it . and then we do it . and then someone else does something that 's straight forward . so , w th w this was a test that largely had additive noise and we did we adde did absolutely nothing explicitly to handle ad additive noise . phd a: right . professor c: we just , uh , you know , trained up systems to be more discriminant . and , uh , we did this , uh , rasta - like filtering which was done in the log domain and was tending to handle convolutional noise . we did we actually did nothing about additive noise . so , um , the , uh , spectral sub subtraction schemes a couple places did seem to seem to do a nice job . and so , uh , we 're talking about putting putting some of that in while still keeping some of our stuff . i think you should be able to end up with a system that 's better than both but clearly the way that we 're operating for this other stuff does involved some latency to to get rid of most of that latency . to get down to forty or fifty milliseconds we 'd have to throw out most of what we 're doing . and and , uh , i do n't think there 's any good reason for it in the application actually . i mean , you 're you 're you 're speaking to a recognizer on a remote server and , uh , having a a a quarter second for some processing to clean it up . it does n't seem like it 's that big a deal . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: these are n't large vocabulary things so the decoder should n't take a really long time , and . phd a: and i do n't think anybody 's gon na notice the difference between a quarter of a second of latency and thirty milliseconds of latency . professor c: so . no . what what does wa was your experience when you were doing this stuff with , uh , the the the surgical , uh , uh , microscopes and so forth . um , how long was it from when somebody , uh , finished an utterance to when , uh , something started happening ? phd a: um , we had a silence detector , so we would look for the end of an utterance based on the silence detector . professor c: mm - hmm . phd a: and i i ca n't remember now off the top of my head how many frames of silence we had to detect before we would declare it to be the end of an utterance . professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: um , but it was , uh , i would say it was probably around the order of two hundred and fifty milliseconds . professor c: yeah , and that 's when you 'd start doing things . phd a: yeah , we did the back trace at that point to get the answer . professor c: yeah . of course that did n't take too long at that point . phd a: no , no it was pretty quick . professor c: yeah . phd a: so professor c: yeah , so you you so you had a phd a: this w professor c: so you had a a quarter second delay before , uh , plus some little processing time , phd a: right . professor c: and then the the microscope would start moving or something . phd a: right . professor c: yeah . phd a: right . professor c: and there 's physical inertia there , so probably the the motion itself was all phd a: and it felt to , uh , the users that it was instantaneous . i mean , as fast as talking to a person . it th i do n't think anybody ever complained about the delay . professor c: yeah , so you would think as long as it 's under half a second or something . phd a: yeah . professor c: uh , i 'm not an expert on that phd a: yeah . professor c: but . phd a: i do n't remember the exact numbers but it was something like that . professor c: yeah . phd a: i do n't think you can really tell . a person i do n't think a person can tell the difference between , uh , you know , a quarter of a second and a hundred milliseconds , and i 'm not even sure if we can tell the difference between a quarter of a second and half a second . professor c: yeah . phd a: i mean it just it feels so quick . professor c: yeah . i mean , basically if you yeah , if you said , uh , um , `` what 's the , uh , uh what 's the shortest route to the opera ? `` and it took half a second to get back to you , phd a: yeah . professor c: i mean , it would be f i mean , it might even be too abrupt . you might have to put in a s a s a delay . phd a: yeah . i mean , it may feel different than talking to a person professor c: yeah . phd a: because when we talk to each other we tend to step on each other 's utterances . so like if i 'm asking you a question , you may start answering before i 'm even done . professor c: yeah . phd a: so it it would probably feel different professor c: right . phd a: but i do n't think it would feel slow . professor c: right . well , anyway , i mean , i think we could cut we know what else , we could cut down on the neural net time by by , uh , playing around a little bit , going more into the past , or something like that . we t we talked about that . phd a: so is the latency from the neural net caused by how far ahead you 're looking ? professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: and there 's also well , there 's the neural net and there 's also this , uh , uh , multi - frame , uh , uh , klt . phd a: was n't there was it in the , uh , recurrent neural nets where they were n't looking ahead at all ? professor c: they were n't looking ahead much . they p they looked ahead a little bit . phd a: a little bit . ok . professor c: yeah . yeah , i mean , you could do this with a recurrent net . and and then but you also could just , um , i mean , we have n't experimented with this but i imagine you could , um , uh , predict a , uh um , a label , uh , from more in the past than in than than in the future . i mean , we 've d we 've done some stuff with that before . i think it it works ok . phd b: mm - hmm . phd a: we 've always had usually we used the symmetric windows professor c: so . phd a: but i do n't think professor c: yeah , but we 've but we played a little bit with with asymmetric , guys . phd a: yeah . professor c: you can do it . so . so , that 's what that 's what you 're busy with , s messing around with this , phd b: uh , yeah . professor c: yeah . and , uh , phd d: also we were thinking to to , uh , apply the eh , spectral subtraction from ericsson phd b: yeah . professor c: uh - huh . phd d: and to to change the contextual klt for lda . phd a: change the what ? phd d: the contextual klt . phd a: i 'm missing that last word . context professor c: k klt . phd a: klt . phd d: klt grad e: oh . klt . phd a: oh , klt . professor c: mm - hmm . phd a: uh - huh . phd d: klt , i 'm sorry . uh , to change and use lda discriminative . phd b: yeah . professor c: uh - huh . phd d: but i do n't know . professor c: uh , phd a: what is the advantage of that ? phd d: uh phd b: well , it 's that by the for the moment we have , uh , something that 's discriminant and nonlinear . and the other is linear but it 's not discriminant at all . well , it 's it 's a linear transformation , that uh professor c: so at least just to understand maybe what the difference was between how much you were getting from just putting the frames together and how much you 're getting from the discriminative , what the nonlinearity does for you or does n't do for you . just to understand it a little better i guess . phd b: mmm . well uh yeah . actually what we want to do , perhaps it 's to replace to to have something that 's discriminant but linear , also . and to see if it if it improves ov over over the non - discriminant linear transformation . phd a: hmm . phd b: and if the neural net is better than this or , well . so . professor c: yeah , well , that 's what i meant , is to see whether whether it having the neural net really buys you anything . phd b: ye mmm . professor c: uh , i mean , it doe did look like it buys you something over just the klt . phd b: yeah . professor c: but maybe it 's just the discrimination and and maybe yeah , maybe the nonlinear discrimination is n't necessary . phd d: s maybe . phd b: yeah . mm - hmm . professor c: could be . phd d: maybe . professor c: good good to know . but the other part you were saying was the spectral subtraction , so you just kind of , uh phd b: yeah . professor c: at what stage do you do that ? do you you 're doing that , um ? phd b: so it would be on the um on on the mel frequency bands , phd d: we was think phd b: so . yeah , be before everything . professor c: ok , phd d: yeah , professor c: so just do that on the mel f phd d: we no nnn we we was thinking to do before after vad or phd b: yeah , phd d: oh , { comment } we do n't know exactly when it 's better . phd b: um phd d: before after vad or professor c: so so you know that that that the way that they 're phd d: and then phd b: um . professor c: uh , one thing that would be no good to find out about from this conference call is that what they were talking about , what they 're proposing doing , was having a third party , um , run a good vad , and and determine boundaries . phd d: yeah . professor c: and then given those boundaries , then have everybody do the recognition . phd d: begin to work . professor c: the reason for that was that , um , uh if some one p one group put in the vad and another did n't , uh , or one had a better vad than the other since that they 're not viewing that as being part of the the task , and that any any manufacturer would put a bunch of effort into having some s kind of good speech - silence detection . it still would n't be perfect but i mean , e the argument was `` let 's not have that be part of this test . `` `` let 's let 's separate that out . `` and so , uh , i guess they argued about that yesterday and , yeah , i 'm sorry , i do n't do n't know the answer but we should find out . i 'm sure we 'll find out soon what they , uh what they decided . so , uh yeah , so there 's the question of the vad but otherwise it 's it 's on the the , uh the mel fil filter bank , uh , energies i guess ? phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: mmm , yeah . professor c: you do doing the ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: and you 're you 're subtracting in the in the in the i guess it 's power power domain , uh , or or magnitude domain . probably power domain , right ? phd b: i guess it 's power domain , yeah . professor c: why phd b: i do n't remember exactly . professor c: yeah , phd d: i do n't remember . phd b: but yeah , so it 's before everything else , professor c: yep . phd b: and professor c: i mean , if you look at the theory , it 's it should be in the power domain but but , uh , i 've seen implementations where people do it in the magnitude domain phd b: yeah . professor c: and phd b: mmm . professor c: i have asked people why and they shrug their shoulders and say , `` oh , it works . `` so . phd b: yeah . professor c: uh , and there 's this i guess there 's this mysterious i mean people who do this a lot i guess have developed little tricks of the trade . i mean , there 's there 's this , um you do n't just subtract the the estimate of the noise spectrum . you subtract th that times phd b: a little bit more and yeah . professor c: or or less , or phd a: really ? phd b: yeah . phd a: huh ! professor c: yeah . phd b: and generated this this , professor c: uh . phd b: um , so you have the estimation of the power spectra of the noise , and you multiply this by a factor which is depend dependent on the snr . so . well . phd d: hmm , maybe . phd a: hmm ! phd b: when the speech lev when the signal level is more important , compared to this noise level , the coefficient is small , and around one . but when the power le the s signal level is uh small compared to the noise level , the coefficient is more important . and this reduce actually the music musical noise , phd a: oh ! phd b: uh which is more important during silence portions , phd a: uh - huh . phd b: when the s the energy 's small . phd a: hmm ! phd b: so there are tricks like this but , mmm . phd a: hmm ! professor c: yeah . phd b: yeah . professor c: so . phd a: is the estimate of the noise spectrum a running estimate ? or phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd b: yeah . professor c: well , that 's i mean , that 's what differs from different different tasks and different s uh , spectral subtraction methods . phd a: hmm ! professor c: i mean , if if you have , uh , fair assurance that , uh , the noise is is quite stationary , then the smartest thing to do is use as much data as possible to estimate the noise , get a much better estimate , and subtract it off . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: but if it 's varying at all , which is gon na be the case for almost any real situation , you have to do it on - line , uh , with some forgetting factor or something . phd a: so do you is there some long window that extends into the past over which you calculate the average ? professor c: well , there 's a lot of different ways of computing the noise spectrum . so one of the things that , uh , hans - guenter hirsch did , uh and pas and other people actually , he 's he was n't the only one i guess , was to , uh , take some period of of of speech and in each band , uh , develop a histogram . so , to get a decent histogram of these energies takes at least a few seconds really . but , uh i mean you can do it with a smaller amount but it 's pretty rough . and , um , in fact i think the nist standard method of determining signal - to - noise ratio is based on this . phd a: a couple seconds ? professor c: so no , no , it 's based on this kind of method , phd a: hmm . professor c: this histogram method . so you have a histogram . now , if you have signal and you have noise , you basically have these two bumps in the histogram , which you could approximate as two gaussians . phd a: but wh do n't they overlap sometimes ? professor c: oh , yeah . phd a: ok . professor c: so you have a mixture of two gaussians . phd a: yeah . professor c: right ? and you can use em to figure out what it is . you know . phd a: yeah . professor c: so so basically now you have this mixture of two gaussians , you you n know what they are , and , uh i mean , sorry , you estimate what they are , and , uh , so this gives you what the signal is and what the noise e energy is in that band in the spectrum . and then you look over the whole thing and now you have a noise spectrum . so , uh , hans - guenter hirsch and others have used that kind of method . and the other thing to do is which is sort of more trivial and obvious { comment } is to , uh , uh , determine through magical means that that , uh , there 's no speech in some period , and then see what the spectrum is . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , but , you know , it 's that that that 's tricky to do . it has mistakes . uh , and if you 've got enough time , uh , this other method appears to be somewhat more reliable . uh , a variant on that for just determining signal - to - noise ratio is to just , uh you can do a w a uh an iterative thing , em - like thing , to determine means only . i guess it is em still , but just just determine the means only . do n't worry about the variances . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and then you just use those mean values as being the the , uh uh signal - to - noise ratio in that band . phd a: but what is the it seems like this kind of thing could add to the latency . i mean , depending on where the window was that you used to calculate the signal - to - noise ratio . phd b: yeah , sure . but mmm . professor c: not necessarily . cuz if you do n't look into the future , right ? phd a: ok , well that i guess that was my question , professor c: if you just yeah phd a: yeah . professor c: i mean , if you just if you you , uh a at the beginning you have some phd a: guess . professor c: esti some guess and and , uh , uh phd b: yeah , but it professor c: it 's an interesting question . i wonder how they did do it ? phd b: actually , it 's a mmm if - if you want to have a good estimation on non - stationary noise you have to look in the in the future . i mean , if you take your window and build your histogram in this window , um , what you can expect is to have an estimation of th of the noise in in the middle of the window , not at the end . so professor c: well , yeah , phd b: the but but people professor c: but what does what what what does alcatel do ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: and and france telecom . phd b: the they just look in the past . i guess it works because the noise are , uh pret uh , almost stationary professor c: pretty stationary . grad e: pretty stationary , phd b: but , um professor c: well , the thing , e e e e grad e: yeah . professor c: yeah , y i mean , you 're talking about non - stationary noise but i think that spectral subtraction is rarely is is not gon na work really well for for non - stationary noise , phd b: well , if y if you have a good estimation of the noise , professor c: you know ? phd b: yeah , because well it it has to work . professor c: but it 's hard to phd b: i professor c: but that 's hard to do . phd b: yeah , that 's hard to do . yeah . professor c: yeah . so so i think that that what what is wh what 's more common is that you 're going to be helped with r slowly varying or stationary noise . phd b: but mm - hmm . professor c: that 's what spectral subtraction will help with , practically speaking . phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: if it varies a lot , to get a if if to get a good estimate you need a few seconds of speech , even if it 's centered , right ? phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: if you need a few seconds to get a decent estimate but it 's changed a lot in a few seconds , then it , you know , i it 's kind of a problem . phd b: yeah . professor c: i mean , imagine e five hertz is the middle of the of the speech modulation spectrum , phd b: mmm . professor c: right ? so imagine a jack hammer going at five hertz . phd b: yeah , that 's professor c: i mean , good good luck . so , phd b: so in this case , yeah , sure , you can not professor c: yeah . phd b: but i think y um , hirsch does experiment with windows of like between five hundred milliseconds and one second . and well , five hundred wa was not so bad . i mean and he worked on non - stationary noises , like noise modulated with well , wi with amplitude modulations and things like that , phd a: were his , uh , windows centered around the phd b: and but um , yeah . well , i think yeah . well , in in the paper he showed that actually the estimation of the noise is is delayed . well , it 's there is you you have to center the window , yeah . professor c: yeah . phd b: mmm . professor c: no , i understand it 's better to do but i just think that that , uh , for real noises wh what what 's most likely to happen is that there 'll be some things that are relatively stationary phd b: mmm . professor c: where you can use one or another spectral subtraction thing phd b: yeah . professor c: and other things where it 's not so stationary and i mean , you can always pick something that that falls between your methods , phd b: hmm . professor c: uh , uh , but i do n't know if , you know , if sinusoidally , uh , modul amplitude modulated noise is is sort of a big problem in in in practice . phd b: yeah . professor c: i think that it 's uh phd a: we could probably get a really good estimate of the noise if we just went to the noise files , and built the averages from them . professor c: yeah . well . phd b: what what do you mean ? professor c: just cheat you 're saying , cheat . phd b: but if the if the noise is stationary perhaps you do n't even need some kind of noise estimation algorithm . professor c: yeah . yeah . phd b: we just take th th th the beginning of the utterance and professor c: oh , yeah , sure . phd b: i i know p i do n't know if people tried this for aurora . phd d: it 's the same . phd b: well , everybody seems to use some kind of adaptive , well , scheme professor c: but but phd d: yeah . phd b: but , phd d: a dictionary . phd b: is it very useful professor c: you know , stationary phd a: very slow adaptation . phd b: and is the c phd a: th professor c: right , the word `` stationary `` is has a very precise statistical meaning . but , you know , in in signal - processing really what we 're talking about i think is things that change slowly , uh , compared with our our processing techniques . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: so if you 're driving along in a car i i would think that most of the time the nature of the noise is going to change relatively slowly . it 's not gon na stay absolute the same . if you if you check it out , uh , five minutes later you may be in a different part of the road phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: or whatever . but it 's it 's i i i using the local characteristics in time , is probably going to work pretty well . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: but you could get hurt a lot if you just took some something from the beginning of all the speech , of , you know , an hour of speech and then later phd b: yeah . professor c: uh , so they may be you know , may be overly , uh , complicated for for this test but but but , uh , i do n't know . but what you 're saying , you know , makes sense , though . i mean , if possible you should n't you should you should make it , uh , the center of the center of the window . but uh , we 're already having problems with these delay , uh delay issues . phd b: yeah , so . professor c: so , uh , we 'll have to figure ways without it . um , phd a: if they 're going to provide a , uh , voice activity detector that will tell you the boundaries of the speech , then , could n't you just go outside those boundaries and do your estimate there ? professor c: oh , yeah . you bet . yeah . so i i imagine that 's what they 're doing , right ? is they 're they 're probably looking in nonspeech sections and getting some , uh phd b: yeah , they have some kind of threshold on on the previous estimate , and so . yeah . i think . yeah , i think ericsson used this kind of threshold . yeah , so , they h they have an estimate of the noise level and they put a threshold like six or ten db above , and what 's under this threshold is used to update the estimate . is is that right phd d: yeah . phd b: or ? phd d: i think so . phd b: so it 's it 's phd d: i have not here the proposal . phd b: yeah . it 's like saying what 's under the threshold is silence , professor c: does france telecom do this phd b: and grad e: hmm . professor c: does france telecom do th do the same thing ? more or less ? phd b: i d i y you know , perhaps ? phd d: no . i do i have not here the proposal . professor c: ok . um , ok , if we 're we 're done done with that , uh , let 's see . uh , maybe we can talk about a couple other things briefly , just , uh , things that that we 've been chatting about but have n't made it into these meetings yet . so you 're coming up with your quals proposal , and , uh wan na just give a two three minute summary of what you 're planning on doing ? grad e: oh , um , two , three , it can be shorter than that . professor c: yeah . grad e: um . well , i 've i 've talked to some of you already . um , but i 'm , uh , looking into extending the work done by larry saul and john allen and uh mazin rahim . um , they they have a system that 's , uh , a multi - band , um , system but their multi - band is is a little different than the way that we 've been doing multi - band in the past , where um where we 've been @ @ { comment } uh taking um sub - band features and i training up these neural nets and on on phonetic targets , and then combining them some somehow down the line , um , they 're they 're taking sub - band features and , um , training up a detector that detects for , um , these phonetic features for example , um , he presents um , uh , a detector to detect sonorance . and so what what it basically is is , um it 's there 's at the lowest level , there it 's it 's an or ga i mean , it 's an and gate . so , uh , on each sub - band you have several independent tests , to test whether um , there 's the existence of sonorance in a sub - band . and then , um , it c it 's combined by a soft and gate . and at the at the higher level , for every if , um the higher level there 's a soft or gate . uh , so if if this detector detects um , the presence of of sonorance in any of the sub - bands , then the detect uh , the or gate at the top says , `` ok , well this frame has evidence of sonorance . `` phd a: what are what are some of the low level detectors that they use ? grad e: and these are all oh , ok . well , the low level detectors are logistic regressions . um , and the , uh professor c: so that , by the way , basically is a is one of the units in our in our our neural network . grad e: the one o professor c: so that 's all it is . it 's a sig it 's a sigmoid , grad e: yeah . professor c: uh , with weighted sum at the input , phd a: hmm . professor c: which you train by gradient descent . grad e: right . yeah , so he uses , um , an em algorithm to to um train up these um parameters for the logistic regression . professor c: well , actually , yeah , grad e: the professor c: so i was using em to get the targets . so so you have this this this and gate what we were calling an and gate , but it 's a product product rule thing at the output . and then he uses , uh , i u and then feeding into that are i 'm sorry , there 's it 's an or at the output , is n't it ? yeah , grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: so that 's the product . and then , um , then he has each of these and things . and , um , but so they 're little neural neural units . um , and , um , they have to have targets . and so the targets come from em . phd a: and so are each of these , low level detectors { comment } are they , uh are these something that you decide ahead of time , like `` i 'm going to look for this particular feature or i 'm going to look at this frequency , `` or what what what are they looking at ? grad e: um phd a: what are their inputs ? grad e: uh right , so the ok , so at each for each sub - band { comment } there are basically , uh , several measures of snr and and correlation . phd a: ah , ok , ok . grad e: um , um and he said there 's like twenty of these per per sub - band . um , and for for every s every sub - band , e you you just pick ahead of time , um , `` i 'm going to have like five i independent logistic tests . `` phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: and you initialize these parameters , um , in some some way and use em to come up with your training targets for a for the the low - level detectors . phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: and then , once you get that done , you you you train the whole whole thing on maximum likelihood . um , and h he shows that using this this method to detect sonorance is it 's very robust compared to , um to typical , uh , full - band gaussian mixtures um estimations of of sonorance . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad e: and , uh so so that 's just that 's just one detector . so you can imagine building many of these detectors on different features . you get enough of these detectors together , um , then you have enough information to do , um , higher level discrimination , for example , discriminating between phones phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: and then you keep working your way up until you you build a full recognizer . phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: so , um , that 's that 's the direction which i 'm i 'm thinking about going in my quals . phd a: cool . professor c: you know , it has a number of properties that i really liked . i mean , one is the going towards , um , using narrow band information for , uh , ph phonetic features of some sort rather than just , uh , immediately going for the the typical sound units . phd a: right . professor c: another thing i like about it is that you t this thing is going to be trained explicitly trained for a product of errors rule , which is what , uh , allen keeps pointing out that fletcher observed in the twenties , phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , for people listening to narrow band stuff . that 's friday 's talk , by the way . and then , um , uh , the third thing i like about it is , uh , and we 've played around with this in a different kind of way a little bit but it has n't been our dominant way of of operating anything , um , this issue of where the targets come from . so in our case when we 've been training it multi - band things , the way we get the targets for the individual bands is , uh , that we get the phonetic label for the sound there phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and we say , `` ok , we train every `` what this is saying is , ok , that 's maybe what our ultimate goal is or not ultimate but penultimate goal is getting these these small sound units . but but , um , along the way how much should we , uh uh , what should we be training these intermediate things for ? i mean , because , uh , we do n't know uh , that this is a particularly good feature . i mean , there 's no way , uh someone in the audience yesterday was asking , `` well could n't you have people go through and mark the individual bands and say where the where it was sonorant or not ? `` phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: but , you know , i think having a bunch of people listening to critical band wide , uh , chunks of speech trying to determine whether { comment } i think it 'd be impossible . grad e: ouch . professor c: it 's all gon na sound like like sine waves to you , more or less . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: i mean well not i mean , it 's g all g narrow band uh , i i m i think it 's very hard for someone to to a person to make that determination . so , um , um , we do n't really know how those should be labeled . it could sh be that you should , um , not be paying that much attention to , uh , certain bands for certain sounds , uh , in order to get the best result . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: so , um , what we have been doing there , just sort of mixing it all together , is certainly much much cruder than that . we trained these things up on the on the , uh the final label . now we have i guess done experiments you 've probably done stuff where you have , um , done separate , uh , viterbis on the different grad e: yeah . forced alignment on the sub - band labels ? professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah . professor c: you 've done that . did did that help at all ? grad e: um , it helps for one or t one iteration but um , anything after that it does n't help . professor c: so so that may or may t it that aspect of what he 's doing may or may not be helpful because in a sense that 's the same sort of thing . you 're taking global information and determining what you how you should but this is this is , uh , i th i think a little more direct . phd a: how did they measure the performance of their detector ? professor c: and well , he 's look he 's just actually looking at , uh , the confusions between sonorant and non - sonorant . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: so he has n't applied it to recognition or if he did he did n't talk about it . it 's it 's just and one of the concerns in the audience , actually , was that that , um , the , uh , uh he he did a comparison to , uh , you know , our old foil , the the nasty old standard recognizer with mel mel filter bank at the front , and h m ms , and and so forth . and , um , it did n't do nearly as well , especially in in noise . but the one of the good questions in the audience was , well , yeah , but that was n't trained for that . i mean , this use of a very smooth , uh , spectral envelope is something that , you know , has evolved as being generally a good thing for speech recognition but if you knew that what you were gon na do is detect sonorants or not so sonorants and non - sonorants is is is almost like voiced - unvoiced , except i guess that the voiced stops are are also called `` obstruents `` . uh , so it 's it 's uh , but with the exception of the stops i guess it 's pretty much the same as voiced - unvoiced , phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: right ? so so um . so , um , if you knew you were doing that , if you were doing something say for a a , uh a a vocoder , you would n't use the same kind of features . you would use something that was sensitive to the periodicity and and not just the envelope . uh , and so in that sense it was an unfair test . um , so i think that the questioner was right . it it was in that sense an unfair test . nonetheless , it was one that was interesting because , uh , this is what we are actually using for speech recognition , these smooth envelopes . and this says that perhaps even , you know , trying to use them in the best way that we can , that that that we ordinarily do , with , you know , gaussian mixtures and h m ms { comment } and so forth , you you do n't , uh , actually do that well on determining whether something is sonorant or not . phd a: did n't they professor c: which means you 're gon na make errors between similar sounds that are son sonorant or obstruent . phd a: did n't they also do some kind of an oracle experiment where they said `` if we could detect the sonorants perfectly and then show how it would improve speech recognition ? i thought i remember hearing about an experiment like that . professor c: the - these same people ? phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: i do n't remember that . phd a: hmm . professor c: that would that 's you 're right , that 's exactly the question to follow up this discussion , is suppose you did that , uh , got that right . um , yeah . phd a: hmm . phd b: what could be the other low level detectors , i mean , for { comment } other kind of features , or ? in addition to detecting sonorants or ? th - that 's what you want to to to go for also grad e: um phd b: or ? grad e: what t oh , build other other detectors on different phonetic features ? phd b: other low level detectors ? yeah . grad e: um , uh let 's see , um , yeah , i d i do n't know . e um , um , i mean , w easiest thing would be to go go do some voicing stuff but that 's very similar to sonorance . phd b: mm - hmm . grad e: um , phd a: when we when we talked with john ohala the other day we made a list of some of the things that w grad e: yeah . phd a: like frication , grad e: oh ! ok . phd a: abrupt closure , grad e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: r - coloring , nasality , voicing uh . professor c: yeah , so there 's a half dozen like that that are grad e: yeah , nasality . professor c: now this was coming at it from a different angle but maybe it 's a good way to start . uh , these are things which , uh , john felt that a a , uh a human annotator would be able to reliably mark . so the sort of things he felt would be difficult for a human annotator to reliably mark would be tongue position kinds of things . grad e: oh , ok . placing stuff , phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah . phd a: there 's also things like stress . professor c: uh phd a: you can look at stress . professor c: but stress does n't , uh , fit in this thing of coming up with features that will distinguish words from one another , grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: right ? it 's a it 's a good thing to mark and will probably help us ultimate with recognition phd a: yeah , there 's a few cases where it can like permit { comment } and permit . professor c: but phd a: but that 's not very common in english . in other languages it 's more uh , important . professor c: well , yeah , but i either case you 'd write permit , right ? so you 'd get the word right . phd a: no , i 'm saying , i i e i thought you were saying that stress does n't help you distinguish between words . professor c: um , phd a: oh , i see what you 're saying . as long as you get the sequence , professor c: we 're g if we 're doing if we 're talking about transcription as opposed to something else phd a: right ? yeah . yeah , yeah , yeah . yeah . right . professor c: yeah . phd a: so where it could help is maybe at a higher level . yeah . professor c: right . grad e: like a understanding application . phd a: understanding , yeah . exactly . professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah . professor c: but that 's this afternoon 's meeting . yeah . we do n't understand anything in this meeting . yeah , so that 's yeah , that 's , you know , a neat neat thing and and , uh so . grad e: s so , um , ohala 's going to help do these , uh transcriptions of the meeting data ? phd a: uh , well i do n't know . we d we sort of did n't get that far . um , we just talked about some possible features that could be marked by humans and , um , grad e: hmm . phd a: because of having maybe some extra transcriber time we thought we could go through and mark some portion of the data for that . and , uh professor c: yeah , grad e: hmm . professor c: i mean , that 's not an immediate problem , that we do n't immediately have a lot of extra transcriber time . phd a: yeah , right . professor c: but but , uh , in the long term i guess chuck is gon na continue the dialogue with john and and , uh , and , we 'll we 'll end up doing some i think . phd a: i 'm definitely interested in this area , too , f uh , acoustic feature stuff . professor c: uh - huh . grad e: ok . phd a: so . professor c: yeah , i think it 's an interesting interesting way to go . grad e: cool . professor c: um , i say it like `` said - int `` . i think it has a number of good things . um , so , uh , y you want to talk maybe a c two or three minutes about what we 've been talking about today and other days ? grad f: ri yeah , ok , so , um , we 're interested in , um , methods for far mike speech recognition , um , mainly , uh , methods that deal with the reverberation in the far mike signal . so , um , one approach would be , um , say msg and plp , like was used in aurora one and , um , there are other approaches which actually attempt to remove the reverberation , instead of being robust to it like msg . and so we 're interested in , um , comparing the performance of um , a robust approach like msg with these , um , speech enhancement or de - reverber de - reverberation approaches . phd b: mm - hmm . grad f: and , um , it looks like we 're gon na use the meeting recorder digits data for that . phd b: and the de - reverberation algorithm , do you have can you give some more details on this or ? does it use one microphone ? grad f: o o phd b: several microphones ? does it ? grad f: ok , well , um , there was something that was done by , um , a guy named carlos , i forget his last name , { comment } who worked with hynek , who , um , professor c: avendano . grad f: ok . professor c: yeah . grad f: who , um , phd b: mm - hmm . grad f: um , it was like rasta in the sense that of it was , um , de - convolution by filtering um , except he used a longer time window , phd b: mm - hmm . grad f: like a second maybe . and the reason for that is rasta 's time window is too short to , um include the whole , um , reverberation um , i do n't know what you call it the reverberation response . i if you see wh if you see what i mean . the reverberation filter from my mouth to that mike is like it 's t got it 's too long in the in the time domain for the um for the rasta filtering to take care of it . and , um , then there are a couple of other speech enhancement approaches which have n't been tried for speech recognition yet but have just been tried for enhancement , which , um , have the assumption that um , you can do lpc um analysis of th of the signal you get at the far microphone and the , um , all pole filter that you get out of that should be good . it 's just the , um , excitation signal { comment } that is going to be distorted by the reverberation and so you can try and reconstruct a better excitation signal and , um , feed that through the i um , all pole filter and get enhanced speech with reverberation reduced . phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: there 's also this , uh , um , uh , echo cancellation stuff that we 've sort of been chasing , so , uh we have , uh and when we 're saying these digits now we do have a close microphone signal and then there 's the distant microphone signal . and you could as a kind of baseline say , `` ok , given that we have both of these , uh , we should be able to do , uh , a cancellation . `` so that , uh , um , we we , uh , essentially identify the system in between the linear time invariant system between the microphones and and and and re and invert it , uh , or or cancel it out to to some some reasonable approximation phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: through one method or another . uh , that 's not a practical thing , uh , if you have a distant mike , you do n't have a close mike ordinarily , but we thought that might make also might make a good baseline . uh , it still wo n't be perfect because there 's noise . uh , but and then there are s uh , there are single microphone methods that i think people have done for , uh for this kind of de - reverberation . do y do you know any references to any ? cuz i i w i was w w i i lead him down a a bad path on that . phd b: uh , i g i guess i guess when people are working with single microphones , they are more trying to do professor c: but . phd b: well , not not very well , there is the avendano work , professor c: right . phd b: but also trying to mmm , uh trying to f t find the de - convolution filter but in the um not in the time domain but in the uh the stream of features uh i guess . well , @ @ { comment } there there 's someone working on this on i in mons professor c: yeah , ok . phd b: so perhaps , yeah , we should try t to he 's working on this , on trying to professor c: yeah . phd b: on re reverberation , um professor c: the first paper on this is gon na have great references , i can tell already . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: it 's always good to have references , especially when reviewers read it or or one of the authors and , feel they 'll `` you 're ok , you 've r you cited me . `` phd b: so , yeah . well , he did echo cancellation and he did some fancier things like , uh , uh , training different network on different reverberation conditions and then trying to find the best one , but . well . professor c: yeah . phd b: yeah . professor c: the oth the other thing , uh , that dave was talking about earlier was , uh , uh , multiple mike things , uh , where they 're all distant . so , um , i mean , there 's there 's all this work on arrays , but the other thing is , uh , what can we do that 's cleverer that can take some advantage of only two mikes , uh , particularly if there 's an obstruction between them , as we as we have over there . phd b: if there is ? professor c: an obstruction between them . phd b: ah , yeah . professor c: it creates a shadow which is is helpful . it 's part of why you have such good directionality with , with two ears phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: even though they 're not several feet apart . for most for most people 's heads . phd a: that could help though . professor c: so that yeah , the the head , in the way , is really that 's what it 's for . it 's basically , phd a: that 's what the head 's for ? to separate the ears ? professor c: yeah , it 's to separate the ears . that 's right , yeah . yeah . uh , so . anyway , o k . uh , i think that 's that 's all we have this week . grad e: oh . professor c: and , uh , i think it 's digit time . phd a: actually the , um for some reason the digit forms are blank . professor c: yeah ? phd a: uh , i think th that may be due to the fact that { comment } adam ran out of digits , { comment } uh , and did n't have time to regenerate any . professor c: oh ! oh ! i guess it 's well there 's no real reason to write our names on here then , phd a: yeah , if you want to put your credit card numbers and , uh professor c: is there ? grad e: oh , no ? professor c: or do did any do we need the names for the other stuff , phd a: uh , yeah , i do need your names and and the time , and all that , professor c: or ? oh , ok . phd a: cuz we put that into the `` key `` files . professor c: oh , ok . phd a: um . but w professor c: ok . phd a: that 's why we have the forms , uh , even if there are no digits . professor c: ok , yeah , i did n't notice this . i 'm sitting here and i was i was about to read them too . it 's a , uh , blank sheet of paper . phd a: so i guess we 're we 're done . professor c: yeah , yeah , i 'll do my credit card number later . ok .

grad e started the discussion on sonorance and informed the team of the model by saul , allen , and rahim . the model detects phonetic features using independent tests . he explained that several detectors trained on different features were more robust than a full-band of gaussian mixtures .

summarize the meeting </s> phd a: it 's not very significant . professor b: uh , channel one . yes . grad d: channel three . professor b: ok . phd f: mm - hmm . grad d: channel three . phd a: ta grad d: channel three . alright . professor b: ok , did you solve speech recognition last week ? grad e: almost . professor b: alright ! let 's do image processing . phd c: yes , again . phd a: great . phd c: we did it again , morgan . professor b: alright ! grad e: doo - doop , doo - doo . phd a: what 's wrong with ? professor b: ok . it 's april fifth . actually , hynek should be getting back in town shortly if he is n't already . phd c: is he gon na come here ? professor b: uh . well , we 'll drag him here . i know where he is . phd c: so when you said `` in town `` , you mean oregon . professor b: u u u u uh , i meant , you know , this end of the world , yeah , is really what i meant , phd c: oh . grad e: doo , doo - doo . professor b: uh , cuz he 's been in europe . grad e: doo - doo . professor b: so . phd c: i have something just fairly brief to report on . professor b: mmm . phd c: um , i did some experim uh , uh , just a few more experiments before i had to , uh , go away for the w well , that week . professor b: great ! phd c: was it last week or whenever ? um , so what i was started playing with was the th again , this is the htk back - end . and , um , i was curious because the way that they train up the models , they go through about four sort of rounds of of training . and in the first round they do uh , i think it 's three iterations , and for the last three rounds e e they do seven iterations of re - estimation in each of those three . and so , you know , that 's part of what takes so long to train the the the back - end for this . professor b: i 'm sorry , i did n't quite get that . there 's there 's four and there 's seven and i i 'm sorry . phd c: yeah . uh , maybe i should write it on the board . so , there 's four rounds of training . um , i g i g i guess you could say iterations . the first one is three , then seven , seven , and seven . and what these numbers refer to is the number of times that the , uh , hmm re - estimation is run . it 's this program called h e professor b: but in htk , what 's the difference between , uh , a an inner loop and an outer loop in these iterations ? phd c: ok . so what happens is , um , at each one of these points , you increase the number of gaussians in the model . professor b: yeah . oh , right ! this was the mix up stuff . phd c: yeah . the mix up . professor b: that 's right . phd c: right . professor b: i remember now . phd c: and so , in the final one here , you end up with , uh for all of the the digit words , you end up with , uh , three mixtures per state , professor b: yeah . phd c: eh , in the final thing . so i had done some experiments where i was i i want to play with the number of mixtures . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: but , um , uh , i wanted to first test to see if we actually need to do this many iterations early on . grad e: uh , one , two , professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: and so , um , i i ran a couple of experiments where i reduced that to l to be three , two , two , uh , five , i think , and i got almost the exact same results . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: and but it runs much much faster . so , um , i i think m it only took something like , uh , three or four hours to do the full training , professor b: as opposed to ? phd f: good . phd c: as opposed to wh what , sixteen hours or something like that ? i mean , it takes you have to do an overnight basically , the way it is set up now . phd f: yeah . it depends . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: so , uh , even we do n't do anything else , doing something like this could allow us to turn experiments around a lot faster . professor b: and then when you have your final thing , do a full one , so it 's phd c: and when you have your final thing , we go back to this . phd f: yeah . phd c: so , um , and it 's a real simple change to make . i mean , it 's like one little text file you edit and change those numbers , and you do n't do anything else . phd f: oh , this is a phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: and then you just run . phd f: ok . phd c: so it 's a very simple change to make and it does n't seem to hurt all that much . phd a: so you you run with three , two , two , five ? that 's a phd c: so i uh , i i have to look to see what the exact numbers were . phd a: yeah . phd c: i i thought was , like , three , two , two , five , phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: but i i 'll i 'll double check . it was over a week ago that i did it , phd a: ok . mm - hmm . phd c: so i ca n't remember exactly . grad e: oh . phd c: but , uh professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: um , but it 's so much faster . i it makes a big difference . grad e: hmm . phd c: so we could do a lot more experiments and throw a lot more stuff in there . phd f: yeah . professor b: that 's great . phd c: um . oh , the other thing that i did was , um , i compiled the htk stuff for the linux boxes . so we have this big thing that we got from ibm , which is a five - processor machine . really fast , but it 's running linux . so , you can now run your experiments on that machine and you can run five at a time and it runs , uh , as fast as , you know , uh , five different machines . phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: mm - hmm . phd c: so , um , i 've forgotten now what the name of that machine is but i can i can send email around about it . phd a: yeah . phd c: and so we 've got it now htk 's compiled for both the linux and for , um , the sparcs . um , you have to make you have to make sure that in your dot cshrc , um , it detects whether you 're running on the linux or a a sparc and points to the right executables . uh , and you may not have had that in your dot cshrc before , if you were always just running the sparc . so , um , phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: uh , i can i can tell you exactly what you need to do to get all of that to work . but it 'll it really increases what we can run on . grad e: hmm . cool . phd c: so , together with the fact that we 've got these faster linux boxes and that it takes less time to do these , um , we should be able to crank through a lot more experiments . phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: so . grad e: hmm . phd c: so after i did that , then what i wanted to do { comment } was try increasing the number of mixtures , just to see , um see how how that affects performance . phd a: yeah . phd c: so . professor b: yeah . in fact , you could do something like keep exactly the same procedure and then add a fifth thing onto it phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: that had more . phd c: exactly . professor b: yeah . phd c: right . right . grad e: so at at the middle o where the arrows are showing , that 's you 're adding one more mixture per state , phd c: uh - huh . uh , grad e: or ? phd c: let 's see , uh . it goes from this uh , try to go it backwards this at this point it 's two mixtures per state . so this just adds one . except that , uh , actually for the silence model , it 's six mixtures per state . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: uh , so it goes to two . grad e: ok . phd c: um . and i think what happens here is professor b: might be between , uh , shared , uh shared variances or something , phd c: yeah . i think that 's what it is . professor b: or phd c: uh , yeah . it 's , uh shoot . i i i ca n't remember now what happens at that first one . uh , i have to look it up and see . grad e: oh , ok . phd c: um , there because they start off with , uh , an initial model which is just this global model , and then they split it to the individuals . and so , it may be that that 's what 's happening here . i i i have to look it up and see . i i do n't exactly remember . grad e: ok . professor b: ok . phd c: so . that 's it . professor b: alright . so what else ? phd a: um . yeah . there was a conference call this tuesday . um . i do n't know yet the what happened tuesday , but the points that they were supposed to discuss is still , uh , things like the weights , uh professor b: oh , this is a conference call for , uh , uh , aurora participant sort of thing . grad e: for phd a: yeah . yeah . professor b: i see . phd a: mmm . professor b: do you know who was who was since we were n't in on it , uh , do you know who was in from ogi ? was was was hynek involved or was it sunil phd a: i have no idea . professor b: or ? phd a: mmm , i just professor b: oh , you do n't know . ok . phd a: yeah . professor b: alright . phd a: um , yeah . so the points were the the weights how to weight the different error rates that are obtained from different language and and conditions . um , it 's not clear that they will keep the same kind of weighting . right now it 's a weighting on on improvement . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: some people are arguing that it would be better to have weights on uh well , to to combine error rates before computing improvement . uh , and the fact is that for right now for the english , they have weights they they combine error rates , but for the other languages they combine improvement . so it 's not very consistent . um professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . the , um yeah . and so well , this is a point . and right now actually there is a thing also , uh , that happens with the current weight is that a very non - significant improvement on the well - matched case result in huge differences in in the final number . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: and so , perhaps they will change the weights to phd c: hmm . phd a: yeah . phd c: how should that be done ? i mean , it it seems like there 's a simple way phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: uh , this seems like an obvious mistake or something . professor b: well , i mean , the fact that it 's inconsistent is an obvious mistake . phd c: th - they 're professor b: but the but , um , the other thing phd a: in professor b: i do n't know i have n't thought it through , but one one would think that each it it 's like if you say what 's the what 's the best way to do an average , an arithmetic average or a geometric average ? phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: it depends what you wan na show . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: each each one is gon na have a different characteristic . phd a: yeah . professor b: so phd c: well , it seems like they should do , like , the percentage improvement or something , rather than the absolute improvement . phd a: tha - that 's what they do . professor b: well , they are doing that . phd a: yeah . professor b: no , that is relative . but the question is , do you average the relative improvements or do you average the error rates and take the relative improvement maybe of that ? phd a: yeah . yeah . professor b: and the thing is it 's not just a pure average because there are these weightings . phd c: oh . professor b: it 's a weighted average . um . phd a: yeah . and so when you average the the relative improvement it tends to to give a lot of of , um , importance to the well - matched case because the baseline is already very good and , um , i it 's phd c: why do n't they not look at improvements but just look at your av your scores ? you know , figure out how to combine the scores phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: with a weight or whatever , and then give you a score here 's your score . and then they can do the same thing for the baseline system and here 's its score . and then you can look at phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: well , that 's what he 's seeing as one of the things they could do . phd a: yeah . professor b: it 's just when you when you get all done , i think that they pro i m i i was n't there but i think they started off this process with the notion that you should be significantly better than the previous standard . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: and , um , so they said `` how much is significantly better ? what do you ? `` and and so they said `` well , you know , you should have half the errors , `` or something , `` that you had before `` . phd a: mm - hmm . hmm . phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . professor b: so it 's , uh , but it does seem like phd c: hmm . professor b: i i it does seem like it 's more logical to combine them first and then do the phd a: combine error rates and then professor b: yeah . phd a: yeah . well professor b: yeah . phd a: but there is this this is this still this problem of weights . when when you combine error rate it tends to give more importance to the difficult cases , and some people think that professor b: oh , yeah ? phd a: well , they have different , um , opinions about this . some people think that it 's more important to look at to have ten percent imp relative improvement on well - matched case than to have fifty percent on the m mismatched , and other people think that it 's more important to improve a lot on the mismatch and so , bu phd c: it sounds like they do n't really have a good idea about what the final application is gon na be . phd a: l de fff ! mmm . professor b: well , you know , the the thing is that if you look at the numbers on the on the more difficult cases , um , if you really believe that was gon na be the predominant use , none of this would be good enough . phd a: yeah . mmm . yeah . professor b: nothing anybody 's phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: whereas you sort of with some reasonable error recovery could imagine in the better cases that these these systems working . so , um , i think the hope would be that it would uh , it would work well for the good cases and , uh , it would have reasonable reas soft degradation as you got to worse and worse conditions . um . phd c: yeah . i i guess what i 'm i mean , i i was thinking about it in terms of , if i were building the final product and i was gon na test to see which front - end i 'd i wanted to use , i would try to weight things depending on the exact environment that i was gon na be using the system in . professor b: but but no . phd c: if i professor b: well , no well , no . i mean , it is n't the operating theater . i mean , they don they they do n't they do n't really know , i think . phd c: yeah . professor b: i mean , i th phd c: so if if they do n't know , does n't that suggest the way for them to go ? uh , you assume everything 's equal . i mean , y y i mean , you professor b: well , i mean , i i think one thing to do is to just not rely on a single number to maybe have two or three numbers , phd c: yeah . professor b: you know , phd c: right . professor b: and and and say here 's how much you , uh you improve the , uh the the relatively clean case and here 's or or well - matched case , and here 's how here 's how much you , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: uh phd c: so not professor b: so . phd c: so not try to combine them . professor b: yeah . uh , actually it 's true . phd c: yeah . professor b: uh , i had forgotten this , uh , but , uh , well - matched is not actually clean . what it is is just that , u uh , the training and testing are similar . phd c: the training and testing . phd a: mmm . professor b: so , i guess what you would do in practice is you 'd try to get as many , uh , examples of similar sort of stuff as you could , and then , phd c: yeah . professor b: uh so the argument for that being the the the more important thing , is that you 're gon na try and do that , but you wan na see how badly it deviates from that when when when the , uh it 's a little different . phd c: so professor b: um , phd c: so you should weight those other conditions v very you know , really small . professor b: but no . that 's a that 's a that 's an arg phd c: i mean , that 's more of an information kind of thing . professor b: that 's an ar well , that 's an argument for it , but let me give you the opposite argument . the opposite argument is you 're never really gon na have a good sample of all these different things . phd c: uh - huh . professor b: i mean , are you gon na have w uh , uh , examples with the windows open , half open , full open ? going seventy , sixty , fifty , forty miles an hour ? on what kind of roads ? phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: with what passing you ? with uh , i mean , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: i i i think that you could make the opposite argument that the well - matched case is a fantasy . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: you know , so , grad e: uh - huh . professor b: i think the thing is is that if you look at the well - matched case versus the po you know , the the medium and the and the fo and then the mismatched case , um , we 're seeing really , really big differences in performance . right ? and and y you would n't like that to be the case . you would n't like that as soon as you step outside you know , a lot of the the cases it 's is phd c: well , that 'll teach them to roll their window up . professor b: i mean , in these cases , if you go from the the , uh i mean , i do n't remember the numbers right off , but if you if you go from the well - matched case to the medium , it 's not an enormous difference in the in the the training - testing situation , and and and it 's a really big performance drop . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: you know , so , um yeah , i mean the reference one , for instance this is back old on , uh on italian uh , was like six percent error for the well - matched and eighteen for the medium - matched and sixty for the for highly - mismatched . uh , and , you know , with these other systems we we helped it out quite a bit , but still there 's there 's something like a factor of two or something between well - matched and medium - matched . and so i think that if what you 're if the goal of this is to come up with robust features , it does mean so you could argue , in fact , that the well - matched is something you should n't be looking at at all , that that the goal is to come up with features that will still give you reasonable performance , you know , with again gentle degregra degradation , um , even though the the testing condition is not the same as the training . phd c: hmm . professor b: so , you know , i i could argue strongly that something like the medium mismatch , which is you know not compl pathological but i mean , what was the the medium - mismatch condition again ? phd a: um , it 's yeah . medium mismatch is everything with the far microphone , but trained on , like , low noisy condition , like low speed and or stopped car and tested on high - speed conditions , i think , like on a highway and professor b: right . phd a: so professor b: so it 's still the same same microphone in both cases , phd a: same microphone but yeah . professor b: but , uh , it 's there 's a mismatch between the car conditions . and that 's uh , you could argue that 's a pretty realistic situation phd c: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , i 'd almost argue for weighting that highest . but the way they have it now , it 's i guess it 's it 's they they compute the relative improvement first and then average that with a weighting ? phd a: yeah . professor b: and so then the that that makes the highly - matched the really big thing . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: um , so , u i since they have these three categories , it seems like the reasonable thing to do is to go across the languages and to come up with an improvement for each of those . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: just say `` ok , in the in the highly - matched case this is what happens , in the m the , uh this other m medium if this happens , in the highly - mismatched that happens `` . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , you should see , uh , a gentle degradation through that . phd a: mmm . professor b: um . but i do n't know . phd a: yeah . professor b: i think that that i i i gather that in these meetings it 's it 's really tricky to make anything ac make any { comment } policy change because everybody has has , uh , their own opinion phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and i do n't know . phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd a: uh , so yeah . yeah , but there is probably a a big change that will be made is that the the baseline th they want to have a new baseline , perhaps , which is , um , mfcc but with a voice activity detector . and apparently , uh , some people are pushing to still keep this fifty percent number . so they want to have at least fifty percent improvement on the baseline , but w which would be a much better baseline . professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: and if we look at the result that sunil sent , just putting the vad in the baseline improved , like , more than twenty percent , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: which would mean then then mean that fifty percent on this new baseline is like , well , more than sixty percent improvement on on o e e uh professor b: so nobody would be there , probably . right ? phd a: right now , nobody would be there , but yeah . professor b: good . work to do . phd a: uh - huh . professor b: so whose vad is is is this a ? phd a: uh , they did n't decide yet . i guess i this was one point of the conference call also , but mmm , so i do n't know . um , but yeah . grad e: oh . professor b: oh , i i think th that would be good . i mean , it 's not that the design of the vad is n't important , but it 's just that it it it does seem to be i uh , a lot of work to do a good job on on that and as well as being a lot of work to do a good job on the feature design , phd a: yeah . professor b: so phd a: yeah . professor b: if we can cut down on that maybe we can make some progress . phd a: m yeah . grad e: hmm . phd a: but i guess perhaps i do n't know w yeah . uh , yeah . per - e s s someone told that perhaps it 's not fair to do that because the , um to make a good vad you do n't have enough to with the the features that are the baseline features . so mmm , you need more features . so you really need to put more more in the in in the front - end . professor b: yeah . phd a: so i professor b: um , phd a: s professor b: sure . but i bu phd c: wait a minute . i i 'm confused . phd a: yeah . phd c: wha - what do you mean ? phd a: yeah , if i professor b: so y so you m s yeah , but well , let 's say for ins see , mfcc for instance does n't have anything in it , uh , related to the pitch . so just just for example . so suppose you 've that what you really wan na do is put a good pitch detector on there and if it gets an unambiguous phd c: oh , oh . i see . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: if it gets an unambiguous result then you 're definitely in a in a in a voice in a , uh , s region with speech . uh . phd c: so there 's this assumption that the v the voice activity detector can only use the mfcc ? phd a: that 's not clear , but this e professor b: well , for the baseline . phd c: yeah . professor b: so so if you use other features then y but it 's just a question of what is your baseline . right ? what is it that you 're supposed to do better than ? phd c: i g yeah . professor b: and so having the baseline be the mfcc 's means that people could choose to pour their ener their effort into trying to do a really good vad phd c: i do n't s but they seem like two separate issues . professor b: or tryi they 're sort of separate . phd c: right ? i mean professor b: unfortunately there 's coupling between them , which is part of what i think stephane is getting to , is that you can choose your features in such a way as to improve the vad . phd a: yeah . professor b: and you also can choose your features in such a way as to prove improve recognition . they may not be the same thing . phd c: but it seems like you should do both . professor b: you should do both phd c: right ? professor b: and and i i think that this still makes i still think this makes sense as a baseline . it 's just saying , as a baseline , we know phd a: mmm . professor b: you know , we had the mfcc 's before , lots of people have done voice activity detectors , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: you might as well pick some voice activity detector and make that the baseline , just like you picked some version of htk and made that the baseline . phd a: yeah . right . professor b: and then let 's try and make everything better . um , and if one of the ways you make it better is by having your features be better features for the vad then that 's so be it . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but , uh , uh , uh , at least you have a starting point that 's um , cuz i i some of the some of the people did n't have a vad at all , i guess . right ? and and phd a: yeah . professor b: then they they looked pretty bad and and in fact what they were doing was n't so bad at all . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: but , um . phd c: yeah . it seems like you should try to make your baseline as good as possible . and if it turns out that you ca n't improve on that , well , i mean , then , you know , nobody wins and you just use mfcc . right ? professor b: yeah . i mean , it seems like , uh , it should include sort of the current state of the art that you want are trying to improve , and mfcc 's , you know , or plp or something it seems like reasonable baseline for the features , and anybody doing this task , uh , is gon na have some sort of voice activity detection at some level , in some way . they might use the whole recognizer to do it but rather than a separate thing , but but they 'll have it on some level . so , um . phd c: it seems like whatever they choose they should n't , you know , purposefully brain - damage a part of the system to make a worse baseline , or professor b: well , i think people just had phd c: you know ? professor b: it was n't that they purposely brain - damaged it . i think people had n't really thought through about the , uh the vad issue . phd c: mmm . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and and then when the the the proposals actually came in and half of them had v a ds and half of them did n't , and the half that did did well and the half that did n't did poorly . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so it 's phd a: mm - hmm . um . professor b: uh . phd a: yeah . so we 'll see what happen with this . and yeah . so what happened since , um , last week is well , from ogi , these experiments on putting vad on the baseline . and these experiments also are using , uh , some kind of noise compensation , so spectral subtraction , and putting on - line normalization , um , just after this . so i think spectral subtraction , lda filtering , and on - line normalization , so which is similar to the pro proposal - one , but with spectral subtraction in addition , and it seems that on - line normalization does n't help further when you have spectral subtraction . phd c: is this related to the issue that you brought up a couple of meetings ago with the the musical tones phd a: i phd c: and ? phd a: i have no idea , because the issue i brought up was with a very simple spectral subtraction approach , phd c: mmm . phd a: and the one that they use at ogi is one from from the proposed the the the aurora prop uh , proposals , which might be much better . so , yeah . i asked sunil for more information about that , but , uh , i do n't know yet . um . and what 's happened here is that we so we have this kind of new , um , reference system which use a nice a a clean downsampling - upsampling , which use a new filter that 's much shorter and which also cuts the frequency below sixty - four hertz , professor b: right . phd a: which was not done on our first proposal . professor b: when you say `` we have that `` , does sunil have it now , too , phd a: i no . professor b: or ? phd a: no . professor b: ok . phd a: because we 're still testing . so we have the result for , uh , just the features professor b: ok . phd a: and we are currently testing with putting the neural network in the klt . um , it seems to improve on the well - matched case , um , but it 's a little bit worse on the mismatch and highly - mismatched i mean when we put the neural network . and with the current weighting i think it 's sh it will be better because the well - matched case is better . mmm . professor b: but how much worse since the weighting might change how how much worse is it on the other conditions , when you say it 's a little worse ? phd a: it 's like , uh , fff , fff { comment } um , { comment } ten percent relative . yeah . professor b: ok . um . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but it has the , uh the latencies are much shorter . that 's phd a: uh - y w when i say it 's worse , it 's not it 's when i i uh , compare proposal - two to proposal - one , so , r uh , y putting neural network compared to n not having any neural network . i mean , this new system is is is better , professor b: uh - huh . phd a: because it has um , this sixty - four hertz cut - off , uh , clean downsampling , and , um what else ? uh , yeah , a good vad . we put the good vad . so . yeah , i do n't know . i i j uh , uh pr professor b: but the latencies but you 've got the latency shorter now . phd a: latency is short is yeah . professor b: yeah . phd f: is n't it phd a: and so professor b: so it 's better than the system that we had before . phd a: yeah . mainly because of the sixty - four hertz and the good vad . professor b: ok . phd a: and then i took this system and , mmm , w uh , i p we put the old filters also . so we have this good system , with good vad , with the short filter and with the long filter , and , um , with the short filter it 's not worse . so well , is it professor b: ok . phd a: it 's in professor b: so that 's that 's all fine . phd a: yes . uh professor b: but what you 're saying is that when you do these so let me try to understand . when when you do these same improvements to proposal - one , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: that , uh , on the i things are somewhat better , uh , in proposal - two for the well - matched case and somewhat worse for the other two cases . phd a: yeah . professor b: so does , uh when you say , uh so the th now that these other things are in there , is it the case maybe that the additions of proposal - two over proposal - one are less im important ? phd a: yeah . probably , yeah . professor b: i get it . phd a: um so , yeah . uh . yeah , but it 's a good thing anyway to have shorter delay . then we tried , um , to do something like proposal - two but having , um , e using also msg features . so there is this klt part , which use just the standard features , professor b: mm - hmm . right . phd a: and then two neura two neural networks . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: mmm , and it does n't seem to help . um , however , we just have one result , which is the italian mismatch , so . uh . we have to wait for that to fill the whole table , but professor b: ok . there was a start of some effort on something related to voicing or something . is that ? phd a: yeah . um , yeah . so basically we try to , uh , find good features that could be used for voicing detection , uh , but it 's still , uh on the , um t phd f: oh , well , i have the picture . phd a: we w basically we are still playing with matlab to to look at at what happened , phd c: what sorts of phd f: yeah . phd a: and phd c: what sorts of features are you looking at ? phd f: we have some phd a: so we would be looking at , um , the variance of the spectrum of the excitation , phd f: uh , um , this , this , and this . phd a: something like this , which is should be high for voiced sounds . uh , we phd c: wait a minute . i what does that mean ? the variance of the spectrum of excitation . phd a: yeah . so the so basically the spectrum of the excitation for a purely periodic sig signal shou sh professor b: ok . yeah , w what yo what you 're calling the excitation , as i recall , is you 're subtracting the the , um the mel mel mel filter , uh , spectrum from the fft spectrum . phd a: e that 's right . yeah . so professor b: right . phd a: yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: so we have the mel f filter bank , we have the fft , so we just professor b: so it 's it 's not really an excitation , phd a: no . professor b: but it 's something that hopefully tells you something about the excitation . phd a: yeah , that 's right . professor b: yeah , yeah . phd a: um yeah . phd f: we have here some histogram , phd a: e yeah , phd f: but they have a lot of overlap . phd a: but it 's it 's still yeah . so , well , for unvoiced portion we have something tha that has a mean around o point three , and for voiced portion the mean is o point fifty - nine . but the variance seem quite high . phd c: how do you know ? phd a: so mmm . phd c: how did you get your voiced and unvoiced truth data ? phd a: we used , uh , timit and we used canonical mappings between the phones phd f: yeah . we , uh , use timit on this , phd a: and phd f: for phd a: th yeah . phd f: but if we look at it in one sentence , it apparently it 's good , i think . phd a: yeah , but yeah . uh , so it 's noisy timit . that 's right . yeah . grad e: it 's noisy timit . phd f: yeah . phd a: it seems quite robust to noise , so when we take we draw its parameters across time for a clean sentence and then nois the same noisy sentence , it 's very close . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . so there are there is this . there could be also the , um something like the maximum of the auto - correlation function or which phd c: is this a a s a trained system ? or is it a system where you just pick some thresholds ? ho - how does it work ? phd a: right now we just are trying to find some features . and , phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: uh yeah . hopefully , i think what we want to have is to put these features in s some kind of , um well , to to obtain a statistical model on these features and to or just to use a neural network and hopefully these features w would help phd c: because it seems like what you said about the mean of the the voiced and the unvoiced { comment } that seemed pretty encouraging . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: well , yeah , except the variance was big . phd c: right ? phd a: yeah . except the variance is quite high . professor b: right ? phd c: well , y phd a: yeah . phd c: well , y i i do n't know that i would trust that so much because you 're doing these canonical mappings from timit labellings . phd a: uh - huh . phd c: right ? so , really that 's sort of a cartoon picture about what 's voiced and unvoiced . so that could be giving you a lot of variance . phd a: yeah . phd c: i mean , i it it may be that that you 're finding something good and that the variance is sort of artificial because of how you 're getting your truth . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . but another way of looking at it might be that i mean , what w we we are coming up with feature sets after all . so another way of looking at it is that um , the mel cepstru mel spectrum , mel cepstrum , any of these variants , um , give you the smooth spectrum . it 's the spectral envelope . by going back to the fft , you 're getting something that is more like the raw data . so the question is , what characterization and you 're playing around with this another way of looking at it is what characterization of the difference between the raw data and this smooth version is something that you 're missing that could help ? so , i mean , looking at different statistical measures of that difference , coming up with some things and just trying them out and seeing if you add them onto the feature vector does that make things better or worse in noise , where you 're really just i i the way i 'm looking at it is not so much you 're trying to f find the best the world 's best voiced - unvoiced , uh , uh , classifier , phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: mmm . professor b: but it 's more that , you know , uh , uh , try some different statistical characterizations of that difference back to the raw data phd c: right . professor b: and and m maybe there 's something there that the system can use . phd c: right . phd a: yeah . yeah , but ther more obvious is that yeah . the the more obvious is that that well , using the th the fft , um , you just it gives you just information about if it 's voiced or not voiced , ma mainly , i mean . but so , professor b: yeah . phd a: this is why we we started to look by having sort of voiced phonemes professor b: well , that 's the rea w w what i 'm arguing is that 's yeah . i mean , uh , what i 'm arguing is that that that 's givi you gives you your intuition . phd a: and mm - hmm . professor b: but in in reality , it 's you know , there 's all of this this overlap and so forth , grad e: oh , sorry . professor b: and but what i 'm saying is that may be ok , because what you 're really getting is not actually voiced versus unvoiced , both for the fac the reason of the overlap and and then , uh , th you know , structural reasons , uh , uh , like the one that chuck said , that that in fact , well , the data itself is that you 're working with is not perfect . phd a: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: so , what i 'm saying is maybe that 's not a killer because you 're just getting some characterization , one that 's driven by your intuition about voiced - unvoiced certainly , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but it 's just some characterization of something back in the in the in the almost raw data , rather than the smooth version . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and your intuition is driving you towards particular kinds of , uh , statistical characterizations of , um , what 's missing from the spectral envelope . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: um , obviously you have something about the excitation , um , and what is it about the excitation , and , you know and you 're not getting the excitation anyway , you know . so so i i would almost take a uh , especially if if these trainings and so forth are faster , i would almost just take a uh , a scattershot at a few different ways of look of characterizing that difference and , uh , you could have one of them but and and see , you know , which of them helps . phd a: mm - hmm . ok . phd c: so i is the idea that you 're going to take whatever features you develop and and just add them onto the future vector ? or , what 's the use of the the voiced - unvoiced detector ? phd a: uh , i guess we do n't know exactly yet . but , um yeah . th phd c: it 's not part of a vad system that you 're doing ? phd f: no . phd a: uh , no . no . phd c: oh , ok . phd a: no , the idea was , i guess , to to use them as as features . phd c: features . i see . phd a: uh yeah , it could be , uh it could be a neural network that does voiced and unvoiced detection , phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: but it could be in the also the big neural network that does phoneme classification . phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: mmm . yeah . professor b: but each one of the mixture components i mean , you have , uh , uh , variance only , so it 's kind of like you 're just multiplying together these , um , probabilities from the individual features within each mixture . so it 's so , uh , it seems l you know phd c: i think it 's a neat thing . uh , it seems like a good idea . professor b: yeah . um . yeah . i mean , i know that , um , people doing some robustness things a ways back were were just doing just being gross and just throwing in the fft and actually it was n't was n't was n't so bad . uh , so it would s and and you know that i it 's got ta hurt you a little bit to not have a a spectral , uh a s a smooth spectral envelope , so there must be something else that you get in return for that phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: that , uh uh so . phd c: so how does uh , maybe i 'm going in too much detail , but how exactly do you make the difference between the fft and the smoothed spectral envelope ? wha - wh i i uh , how is that , uh ? phd a: um , we just how did we do it up again ? phd f: uh , we distend the we have the twenty - three coefficient af after the mel f filter , phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: and we extend these coefficient between the all the frequency range . phd c: mm - hmm . phd f: and i the interpolation i between the point is give for the triang triangular filter , the value of the triangular filter and of this way we obtained this mode this model speech . phd a: s professor b: so you essentially take the values that th that you get from the triangular filter and extend them to sor sort of like a rectangle , that 's at that m value . phd f: yeah . phd a: yeah . i think we have linear interpolation . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: so we have we have one point for one energy for each filter bank , phd f: mmm yeah , it 's linear . phd c: mmm . professor b: oh . phd a: which is the energy that 's centered on on on the triangle phd f: yeah . at the n at the center of the filter phd c: so you you end up with a vector that 's the same length as the fft vector ? phd a: yeah . that 's right . phd f: yeah . phd c: and then you just , uh , compute differences phd f: yeah . i have here one example if you if you want see something like that . phd a: then we compute the difference . phd c: and , phd a: yeah . uh - huh . professor b: ok . phd c: uh , sum the differences ? phd a: so . and i think the variance is computed only from , like , two hundred hertz to one to fifteen hundred . phd c: oh ! ok . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: two thou two { comment } fifteen hundred ? professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: because phd f: no . professor b: right . phd f: two hundred and fifty thousand . phd a: fifteen hundred . because yeah . phd f: yeah . two thousand and fifteen hundred . phd a: above , um it seems that well , some voiced sound can have also , like , a noisy part on high frequencies , and but professor b: yeah . phd a: well , it 's just professor b: no , it 's makes sense to look at low frequencies . phd c: so this is uh , basically this is comparing an original version of the signal to a smoothed version of the same signal ? phd f: yeah . professor b: right . so i so i i this is i mean , i you could argue about whether it should be linear interpolation or or or or zeroeth order , but but phd c: uh - huh . professor b: at any rate something like this is what you 're feeding your recognizer , typically . phd c: like which of the ? professor b: no . uh , so the mel cepstrum is the is the is the cepstrum of this this , uh , spectrum or log spectrum , phd a: so this is yeah . phd c: yeah . right , right . professor b: whatever it you - you 're subtracting in in in power domain or log domain ? phd a: in log domain . yeah . phd f: log domain . professor b: ok . so it 's sort of like division , when you do the yeah , the spectra . phd f: yeah . phd a: uh , yeah . phd c: it 's the ratio . professor b: um . yeah . but , anyway , um and that 's phd c: so what 's th uh , what 's the intuition behind this kind of a thing ? i i do n't know really know the signal - processing well enough to understand what what is that doing . phd a: so . yeah . what happen if what we have have what we would like to have is some spectrum of the excitation signal , professor b: yeah . i guess that makes sense . yeah . phd a: which is for voiced sound ideally a a pulse train phd c: uh - huh . phd a: and for unvoiced it 's something that 's more flat . phd c: uh - huh . right . phd a: and the way to do this is that well , we have the we have the fft because it 's computed in in the in the system , and we have the mel filter banks , phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: and so if we if we , like , remove the mel filter bank from the fft , we have something that 's close to the excitation signal . grad e: oh . phd a: it 's something that 's like a a a train of p a pulse train for voiced sound phd c: ok . professor b: yeah . phd c: oh ! ok . yeah . phd a: and that 's that should be flat for professor b: yeah . phd c: i see . so do you have a picture that sh ? phd a: so - it 's y phd c: is this for a voiced segment , phd a: yeah . phd c: this picture ? what does it look like for unvoiced ? phd f: yeah . phd a: you have several some unvoiced ? phd f: the dif no . unvoiced , i do n't have phd a: oh . phd f: for unvoiced . professor b: yeah . so , you know , all phd f: i 'm sorry . phd a: but yeah . professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah . this is the between phd a: this is another voiced example . yeah . phd f: no . but it 's this , phd a: oh , yeah . this is phd f: but between the frequency that we are considered for the excitation phd a: right . mm - hmm . phd f: for the difference and this is the difference . phd a: yeah . phd c: this is the difference . ok . phd a: so , of course , it 's around zero , professor b: yeah . grad e: sure looks phd a: but grad e: hmm . phd a: well , no . phd c: hmm . phd a: it is phd f: yeah . because we begin , uh , in fifteen point the fifteen point . phd c: so , does does the periodicity of this signal say something about the the phd f: fifteen p phd a: so it 's yeah . professor b: pitch . phd a: it 's the pitch . phd c: the pitch ? phd a: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd c: ok . professor b: that 's like fundamental frequency . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: so , i mean , i t t phd c: ok . i see . professor b: i mean , to first order what you 'd what you 're doing i mean , ignore all the details and all the ways which is that these are complete lies . uh , the the you know , what you 're doing in feature extraction for speech recognition is you have , uh , in your head a a a a simplified production model for speech , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: in which you have a periodic or aperiodic source that 's driving some filters . phd c: mm - hmm . phd f: yeah . this is the the auto - correlation the r - zero energy . phd a: do you have the mean do you have the mean for the auto - correlation ? professor b: uh , first order for speech recognition , you say `` i do n't care about the source `` . phd f: for yeah . phd a: well , i mean for the the energy . phd f: i have the mean . professor b: right ? phd c: right . professor b: and so you just want to find out what the filters are . phd c: right . phd f: yeah . professor b: the filters roughly act like a , um a , uh a an overall resonant you know , f some resonances and so forth that th that 's processing excitation . phd f: here . phd a: they should be more close . phd f: ah , no . this is this ? more close . is this ? and this . phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: so they are this is there is less difference . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so if you look at the spectral envelope , just the very smooth properties of it , you get something closer to that . phd a: this is less it 's less robust . phd f: less robust . yeah . phd a: oh , yeah . professor b: and the notion is if you have the full spectrum , with all the little nitty - gritty details , that that has the effect of both , phd c: yeah . professor b: and it would be a multiplication in in frequency domain phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so that would be like an addition in log power spectrum domain . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: and so this is saying , well , if you really do have that sort of vocal tract envelope , and you subtract that off , what you get is the excitation . and i call that lies because you do n't really have that , you just have some kind of signal - processing trickery to get something that 's kind of smooth . it 's not really what 's happening in the vocal tract phd c: yeah . professor b: so you 're not really getting the vocal excitation . phd c: right . professor b: that 's why i was going to the why i was referring to it in a more a more , uh , uh , conservative way , when i was saying `` well , it 's yeah , it 's the excitation `` . but it 's not really the excitation . it 's whatever it is that 's different between phd c: oh . this moved in the professor b: so so , stand standing back from that , you sort of say there 's this very detailed representation . phd c: yeah . professor b: you go to a smooth representation . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: you go to a smooth representation cuz this typically generalizes better . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: um , but whenever you smooth you lose something , so the question is have you lost something you can you use ? phd c: right . professor b: um , probably you would n't want to go to the extreme of just ta saying `` ok , our feature set will be the fft `` , cuz we really think we do gain something in robustness from going to something smoother , but maybe there 's something that we missed . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so what is it ? phd c: yeah . professor b: and then you go back to the intuition that , well , you do n't really get the excitation , but you get something related to it . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: and it and as you can see from those pictures , you do get something that shows some periodicity , uh , in frequency , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: you know , and and and also in time . phd c: hmm . professor b: so phd c: that 's that 's really neat . professor b: so , phd c: so you do n't have one for unvoiced picture ? phd f: uh , not here . phd c: oh . phd f: no , i have s phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd f: but not here . professor b: but presumably you 'll see something that wo n't have this kind of , uh , uh , uh , regularity in frequency , uh , in the phd a: but yeah . well . phd f: not here . phd c: i would li i would like to see those pictures . phd f: well , so . professor b: yeah . phd f: i ca n't see you { comment } now . professor b: yeah . phd c: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: i do n't have . phd c: and so you said this is pretty doing this kind of thing is pretty robust to noise ? phd a: it seems , yeah . um , phd c: huh . phd f: pfft . oops . the mean is different with it , because the the histogram for the the classifica phd a: no , no , no . but th the kind of robustness to noise phd f: oh ! phd a: so if if you take this frame , uh , from the noisy utterance and the same frame from the clean utterance phd f: hmm . phd c: you end up with a similar difference phd a: y y y yeah . we end up with phd c: over here ? phd a: yeah . phd c: ok . cool ! phd f: i have here the same frame for the clean speech phd c: oh , that 's clean . phd f: the same cle phd c: oh , ok phd f: but they are a difference . phd a: yeah , that 's phd f: because here the fft is only with two hundred fifty - six point phd c: oh . phd f: and this is with five hundred twelve . phd a: yeah . this is kind of inter interesting also phd c: ok . phd a: because if we use the standard , uh , frame length of of , like , twenty - five milliseconds , um , what happens is that for low - pitched voiced , because of the frame length , y you do n't really have you do n't clearly see this periodic structure , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: because of the first lobe of of each each of the harmonics . phd c: so this one inclu is a longer ah . phd a: so , this is like yeah , fifty milliseconds or something like that . phd f: fifty millis yeah . phd a: yeah , but it 's the same frame and phd c: oh , it 's that time - frequency trade - off thing . phd a: yeah . phd c: right ? i see . yeah . phd a: so , yeah . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: oh . oh , so this i is this the difference here , for that ? phd f: no . this is the signal . this is the signal . phd a: i see that . oh , yeah . phd f: the frame . phd c: oh , that 's the f the original . phd a: yeah . phd f: this is the fra the original frame . phd a: so with a short frame basically you have only two periods phd c: yeah . phd a: and it 's not not enough to to have this kind of neat things . phd c: mm - hmm . phd f: mm - hmm . phd c: yeah . phd a: but phd f: and here no , well . phd a: yeah . so probably we 'll have to use , like , long f long frames . mm - hmm . phd c: mm - hmm . grad e: hmm . phd c: oh . professor b: mmm . phd c: that 's interesting . professor b: yeah , maybe . well , i mean it looks better , but , i mean , the thing is if if , uh if you 're actually asking you know , if you actually j uh , need to do place along an fft , it may be it may be pushing things . phd a: yeah . professor b: and and , uh phd c: would you would you wan na do this kind of , uh , difference thing after you do spectral subtraction ? phd a: uh , maybe . phd f: no . maybe we can do that . phd a: mmm . professor b: hmm . the spectral subtraction is being done at what level ? is it being done at the level of fft bins or at the level of , uh , mel spectrum or something ? phd a: um , i guess it depends . professor b: i mean , how are they doing it ? phd a: how they 're doing it ? yeah . um , i guess ericsson is on the , um , filter bank , phd f: fft . filter bank , phd a: no ? it 's on the filter bank , phd f: yeah . phd a: so . so , yeah , probably i i it yeah . professor b: so in that case , it might not make much difference at all . phd c: seems like you 'd wan na do it on the fft bins . professor b: maybe . i mean , certainly it 'd be better . phd c: i i mean , if you were gon na uh , for for this purpose , that is . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . ok . phd a: mmm . professor b: what else ? phd a: uh . yeah , that 's all . so we 'll perhaps try to convince ogi people to use the new the new filters and yeah . professor b: ok . uh , has has anything happened yet on this business of having some sort of standard , uh , source , phd a: uh , not yet professor b: or ? phd a: but i wi i will call them and professor b: ok . phd a: now they are i think they have more time because they have this well , eurospeech deadline is over phd c: when is the next , um , aurora deadline ? phd a: and it 's , um , in june . yeah . phd c: june . professor b: early june , late june , middle june ? phd a: i do n't know w professor b: hmm . grad e: hmm . professor b: ok . um , and he 's been doing all the talking but but these he 's he 's , uh phd f: yeah . professor b: this is this by the way a bad thing . we 're trying to get , um , m more female voices in this record as well . so . make sur make sure carmen talks as well . uh , but has he pretty much been talking about what you 're doing also , and ? phd f: oh , i i am doing this . professor b: yes . phd f: yeah , yeah . i do n't know . i 'm sorry , but i think that for the recognizer for the meeting recorder that it 's better that i do n't speak . professor b: yeah , well . phd f: because professor b: you know , uh , we 'll get we 'll get to , uh , spanish voices sometime , and we do we want to recognize , uh , you too . phd f: after the after , uh , the result for the ti - digits on the meeting record there will be foreigns people . phd a: yeah , but professor b: oh , no . phd c: y professor b: we like we we 're we 're w we are we 're in the , uh , bourlard - hermansky - morgan , uh , frame of mind . yeah , we like high error rates . it 's phd a: yeah . professor b: that way there 's lots of work to do . so it 's uh , anything to talk about ? grad d: n um , not not not much is new . so when i talked about what i 'm planning to do last time , i said i was , um , going to use avendano 's method of , um , using a transformation , um , to map from long analysis frames which are used for removing reverberation to short analysis frames for feature calculation . he has a trick for doing that involving viewing the dft as a matrix . um , but , uh , um , i decided not to do that after all because i i realized to use it i 'd need to have these short analysis frames get plugged directly into the feature computation somehow professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: and right now i think our feature computation is set to up to , um , take , um , audio as input , in general . so i decided that i i 'll do the reverberation removal on the long analysis windows and then just re - synthesize audio and then send that . professor b: this is in order to use the sri system or something . right ? grad d: um , or or even if i 'm using our system , i was thinking it might be easier to just re - synthesize the audio , professor b: yeah ? grad d: because then i could just feacalc as is and i would n't have to change the code . professor b: oh , ok . yeah . i mean , it 's um , certainly in a short short - term this just sounds easier . grad d: uh - huh . professor b: yeah . i mean , longer - term if it 's if it turns out to be useful , one one might want to do something else , grad d: right . that 's true . professor b: but uh , uh , i mean , in in other words , you you may be putting other kinds of errors in from the re - synthesis process . grad d: but e u from the re - synthesis ? um , professor b: yeah . grad d: o - ok . i do n't know anything about re - synthesis . uh , how likely do you think that is ? professor b: uh , it depends what you what you do . i mean , it 's it 's it 's , uh , um do n't know . but anyway it sounds like a reasonable way to go for a for an initial thing , and we can look at at exactly what you end up doing and and then figure out if there 's some something that could be be hurt by the end part of the process . grad d: ok . professor b: ok . so that 's that was it , huh ? grad d: that yeah , e that 's it , that 's it . professor b: ok . ok . grad d: uh - huh . professor b: um , anything to add ? grad e: um . well , i 've been continuing reading . i went off on a little tangent this past week , um , looking at , uh , uh , modulation s spectrum stuff , um , and and learning a bit about what what , um what it is , and , uh , the importance of it in speech recognition . and i found some some , uh , neat papers , um , historical papers from , um , kanedera , hermansky , and arai . professor b: yeah . grad e: and they they did a lot of experiments where th where , um , they take speech and , um , e they modify the , uh they they they measure the relative importance of having different , um , portions of the modulation spectrum intact . professor b: yeah . grad e: and they find that the the spectrum between one and sixteen hertz in the modulation is , uh is im important for speech recognition . professor b: sure . i mean , this sort of goes back to earlier stuff by drullman . grad e: um . professor b: and and , uh , the the msg features were sort of built up with this notion grad e: yeah . right . professor b: but , i guess , i thought you had brought this up in the context of , um , targets somehow . grad e: right . professor b: but i m grad e: um professor b: i it 's not i mean , they 're sort of not in the same kind of category as , say , a phonetic target or a syllabic target grad e: mmm . mm - hmm . professor b: or a grad e: um , i was thinking more like using them as as the inputs to to the detectors . professor b: or a feature or something . oh , i see . well , that 's sort of what msg does . grad e: yeah . yeah . professor b: right ? so it 's grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: but but , uh grad e: s professor b: yeah . grad e: yeah . professor b: anyway , we 'll talk more about it later . grad e: ok . professor b: yeah . grad e: we can talk more about it later . professor b: yeah . yeah . grad e: yeah . professor b: so maybe , le phd c: should we do digits ? professor b: let 's do digits . let you you start . grad d: oh , ok . grad e: l fifty . phd a: right .

the meeting began with an update on the htk backend . the team was testing different numbers for gaussian mixtures . the team then discussed how performance on the aurora tasks was measured . the final score for aurora was a weighted average , but it seemed that there was no practical implementation against which tasks were being measured . the vad of the team 's existing system for aurora was better . the team was also working on feature classification , mainly to do voice-unvoice detection . the meeting concluded with a few more updates on the aurora project .

summarize the discussion on feature classification </s> phd a: it 's not very significant . professor b: uh , channel one . yes . grad d: channel three . professor b: ok . phd f: mm - hmm . grad d: channel three . phd a: ta grad d: channel three . alright . professor b: ok , did you solve speech recognition last week ? grad e: almost . professor b: alright ! let 's do image processing . phd c: yes , again . phd a: great . phd c: we did it again , morgan . professor b: alright ! grad e: doo - doop , doo - doo . phd a: what 's wrong with ? professor b: ok . it 's april fifth . actually , hynek should be getting back in town shortly if he is n't already . phd c: is he gon na come here ? professor b: uh . well , we 'll drag him here . i know where he is . phd c: so when you said `` in town `` , you mean oregon . professor b: u u u u uh , i meant , you know , this end of the world , yeah , is really what i meant , phd c: oh . grad e: doo , doo - doo . professor b: uh , cuz he 's been in europe . grad e: doo - doo . professor b: so . phd c: i have something just fairly brief to report on . professor b: mmm . phd c: um , i did some experim uh , uh , just a few more experiments before i had to , uh , go away for the w well , that week . professor b: great ! phd c: was it last week or whenever ? um , so what i was started playing with was the th again , this is the htk back - end . and , um , i was curious because the way that they train up the models , they go through about four sort of rounds of of training . and in the first round they do uh , i think it 's three iterations , and for the last three rounds e e they do seven iterations of re - estimation in each of those three . and so , you know , that 's part of what takes so long to train the the the back - end for this . professor b: i 'm sorry , i did n't quite get that . there 's there 's four and there 's seven and i i 'm sorry . phd c: yeah . uh , maybe i should write it on the board . so , there 's four rounds of training . um , i g i g i guess you could say iterations . the first one is three , then seven , seven , and seven . and what these numbers refer to is the number of times that the , uh , hmm re - estimation is run . it 's this program called h e professor b: but in htk , what 's the difference between , uh , a an inner loop and an outer loop in these iterations ? phd c: ok . so what happens is , um , at each one of these points , you increase the number of gaussians in the model . professor b: yeah . oh , right ! this was the mix up stuff . phd c: yeah . the mix up . professor b: that 's right . phd c: right . professor b: i remember now . phd c: and so , in the final one here , you end up with , uh for all of the the digit words , you end up with , uh , three mixtures per state , professor b: yeah . phd c: eh , in the final thing . so i had done some experiments where i was i i want to play with the number of mixtures . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: but , um , uh , i wanted to first test to see if we actually need to do this many iterations early on . grad e: uh , one , two , professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: and so , um , i i ran a couple of experiments where i reduced that to l to be three , two , two , uh , five , i think , and i got almost the exact same results . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: and but it runs much much faster . so , um , i i think m it only took something like , uh , three or four hours to do the full training , professor b: as opposed to ? phd f: good . phd c: as opposed to wh what , sixteen hours or something like that ? i mean , it takes you have to do an overnight basically , the way it is set up now . phd f: yeah . it depends . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: so , uh , even we do n't do anything else , doing something like this could allow us to turn experiments around a lot faster . professor b: and then when you have your final thing , do a full one , so it 's phd c: and when you have your final thing , we go back to this . phd f: yeah . phd c: so , um , and it 's a real simple change to make . i mean , it 's like one little text file you edit and change those numbers , and you do n't do anything else . phd f: oh , this is a phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: and then you just run . phd f: ok . phd c: so it 's a very simple change to make and it does n't seem to hurt all that much . phd a: so you you run with three , two , two , five ? that 's a phd c: so i uh , i i have to look to see what the exact numbers were . phd a: yeah . phd c: i i thought was , like , three , two , two , five , phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: but i i 'll i 'll double check . it was over a week ago that i did it , phd a: ok . mm - hmm . phd c: so i ca n't remember exactly . grad e: oh . phd c: but , uh professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: um , but it 's so much faster . i it makes a big difference . grad e: hmm . phd c: so we could do a lot more experiments and throw a lot more stuff in there . phd f: yeah . professor b: that 's great . phd c: um . oh , the other thing that i did was , um , i compiled the htk stuff for the linux boxes . so we have this big thing that we got from ibm , which is a five - processor machine . really fast , but it 's running linux . so , you can now run your experiments on that machine and you can run five at a time and it runs , uh , as fast as , you know , uh , five different machines . phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: mm - hmm . phd c: so , um , i 've forgotten now what the name of that machine is but i can i can send email around about it . phd a: yeah . phd c: and so we 've got it now htk 's compiled for both the linux and for , um , the sparcs . um , you have to make you have to make sure that in your dot cshrc , um , it detects whether you 're running on the linux or a a sparc and points to the right executables . uh , and you may not have had that in your dot cshrc before , if you were always just running the sparc . so , um , phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: uh , i can i can tell you exactly what you need to do to get all of that to work . but it 'll it really increases what we can run on . grad e: hmm . cool . phd c: so , together with the fact that we 've got these faster linux boxes and that it takes less time to do these , um , we should be able to crank through a lot more experiments . phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: so . grad e: hmm . phd c: so after i did that , then what i wanted to do { comment } was try increasing the number of mixtures , just to see , um see how how that affects performance . phd a: yeah . phd c: so . professor b: yeah . in fact , you could do something like keep exactly the same procedure and then add a fifth thing onto it phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: that had more . phd c: exactly . professor b: yeah . phd c: right . right . grad e: so at at the middle o where the arrows are showing , that 's you 're adding one more mixture per state , phd c: uh - huh . uh , grad e: or ? phd c: let 's see , uh . it goes from this uh , try to go it backwards this at this point it 's two mixtures per state . so this just adds one . except that , uh , actually for the silence model , it 's six mixtures per state . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: uh , so it goes to two . grad e: ok . phd c: um . and i think what happens here is professor b: might be between , uh , shared , uh shared variances or something , phd c: yeah . i think that 's what it is . professor b: or phd c: uh , yeah . it 's , uh shoot . i i i ca n't remember now what happens at that first one . uh , i have to look it up and see . grad e: oh , ok . phd c: um , there because they start off with , uh , an initial model which is just this global model , and then they split it to the individuals . and so , it may be that that 's what 's happening here . i i i have to look it up and see . i i do n't exactly remember . grad e: ok . professor b: ok . phd c: so . that 's it . professor b: alright . so what else ? phd a: um . yeah . there was a conference call this tuesday . um . i do n't know yet the what happened tuesday , but the points that they were supposed to discuss is still , uh , things like the weights , uh professor b: oh , this is a conference call for , uh , uh , aurora participant sort of thing . grad e: for phd a: yeah . yeah . professor b: i see . phd a: mmm . professor b: do you know who was who was since we were n't in on it , uh , do you know who was in from ogi ? was was was hynek involved or was it sunil phd a: i have no idea . professor b: or ? phd a: mmm , i just professor b: oh , you do n't know . ok . phd a: yeah . professor b: alright . phd a: um , yeah . so the points were the the weights how to weight the different error rates that are obtained from different language and and conditions . um , it 's not clear that they will keep the same kind of weighting . right now it 's a weighting on on improvement . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: some people are arguing that it would be better to have weights on uh well , to to combine error rates before computing improvement . uh , and the fact is that for right now for the english , they have weights they they combine error rates , but for the other languages they combine improvement . so it 's not very consistent . um professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . the , um yeah . and so well , this is a point . and right now actually there is a thing also , uh , that happens with the current weight is that a very non - significant improvement on the well - matched case result in huge differences in in the final number . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: and so , perhaps they will change the weights to phd c: hmm . phd a: yeah . phd c: how should that be done ? i mean , it it seems like there 's a simple way phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: uh , this seems like an obvious mistake or something . professor b: well , i mean , the fact that it 's inconsistent is an obvious mistake . phd c: th - they 're professor b: but the but , um , the other thing phd a: in professor b: i do n't know i have n't thought it through , but one one would think that each it it 's like if you say what 's the what 's the best way to do an average , an arithmetic average or a geometric average ? phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: it depends what you wan na show . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: each each one is gon na have a different characteristic . phd a: yeah . professor b: so phd c: well , it seems like they should do , like , the percentage improvement or something , rather than the absolute improvement . phd a: tha - that 's what they do . professor b: well , they are doing that . phd a: yeah . professor b: no , that is relative . but the question is , do you average the relative improvements or do you average the error rates and take the relative improvement maybe of that ? phd a: yeah . yeah . professor b: and the thing is it 's not just a pure average because there are these weightings . phd c: oh . professor b: it 's a weighted average . um . phd a: yeah . and so when you average the the relative improvement it tends to to give a lot of of , um , importance to the well - matched case because the baseline is already very good and , um , i it 's phd c: why do n't they not look at improvements but just look at your av your scores ? you know , figure out how to combine the scores phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: with a weight or whatever , and then give you a score here 's your score . and then they can do the same thing for the baseline system and here 's its score . and then you can look at phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: well , that 's what he 's seeing as one of the things they could do . phd a: yeah . professor b: it 's just when you when you get all done , i think that they pro i m i i was n't there but i think they started off this process with the notion that you should be significantly better than the previous standard . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: and , um , so they said `` how much is significantly better ? what do you ? `` and and so they said `` well , you know , you should have half the errors , `` or something , `` that you had before `` . phd a: mm - hmm . hmm . phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . professor b: so it 's , uh , but it does seem like phd c: hmm . professor b: i i it does seem like it 's more logical to combine them first and then do the phd a: combine error rates and then professor b: yeah . phd a: yeah . well professor b: yeah . phd a: but there is this this is this still this problem of weights . when when you combine error rate it tends to give more importance to the difficult cases , and some people think that professor b: oh , yeah ? phd a: well , they have different , um , opinions about this . some people think that it 's more important to look at to have ten percent imp relative improvement on well - matched case than to have fifty percent on the m mismatched , and other people think that it 's more important to improve a lot on the mismatch and so , bu phd c: it sounds like they do n't really have a good idea about what the final application is gon na be . phd a: l de fff ! mmm . professor b: well , you know , the the thing is that if you look at the numbers on the on the more difficult cases , um , if you really believe that was gon na be the predominant use , none of this would be good enough . phd a: yeah . mmm . yeah . professor b: nothing anybody 's phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: whereas you sort of with some reasonable error recovery could imagine in the better cases that these these systems working . so , um , i think the hope would be that it would uh , it would work well for the good cases and , uh , it would have reasonable reas soft degradation as you got to worse and worse conditions . um . phd c: yeah . i i guess what i 'm i mean , i i was thinking about it in terms of , if i were building the final product and i was gon na test to see which front - end i 'd i wanted to use , i would try to weight things depending on the exact environment that i was gon na be using the system in . professor b: but but no . phd c: if i professor b: well , no well , no . i mean , it is n't the operating theater . i mean , they don they they do n't they do n't really know , i think . phd c: yeah . professor b: i mean , i th phd c: so if if they do n't know , does n't that suggest the way for them to go ? uh , you assume everything 's equal . i mean , y y i mean , you professor b: well , i mean , i i think one thing to do is to just not rely on a single number to maybe have two or three numbers , phd c: yeah . professor b: you know , phd c: right . professor b: and and and say here 's how much you , uh you improve the , uh the the relatively clean case and here 's or or well - matched case , and here 's how here 's how much you , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: uh phd c: so not professor b: so . phd c: so not try to combine them . professor b: yeah . uh , actually it 's true . phd c: yeah . professor b: uh , i had forgotten this , uh , but , uh , well - matched is not actually clean . what it is is just that , u uh , the training and testing are similar . phd c: the training and testing . phd a: mmm . professor b: so , i guess what you would do in practice is you 'd try to get as many , uh , examples of similar sort of stuff as you could , and then , phd c: yeah . professor b: uh so the argument for that being the the the more important thing , is that you 're gon na try and do that , but you wan na see how badly it deviates from that when when when the , uh it 's a little different . phd c: so professor b: um , phd c: so you should weight those other conditions v very you know , really small . professor b: but no . that 's a that 's a that 's an arg phd c: i mean , that 's more of an information kind of thing . professor b: that 's an ar well , that 's an argument for it , but let me give you the opposite argument . the opposite argument is you 're never really gon na have a good sample of all these different things . phd c: uh - huh . professor b: i mean , are you gon na have w uh , uh , examples with the windows open , half open , full open ? going seventy , sixty , fifty , forty miles an hour ? on what kind of roads ? phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: with what passing you ? with uh , i mean , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: i i i think that you could make the opposite argument that the well - matched case is a fantasy . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: you know , so , grad e: uh - huh . professor b: i think the thing is is that if you look at the well - matched case versus the po you know , the the medium and the and the fo and then the mismatched case , um , we 're seeing really , really big differences in performance . right ? and and y you would n't like that to be the case . you would n't like that as soon as you step outside you know , a lot of the the cases it 's is phd c: well , that 'll teach them to roll their window up . professor b: i mean , in these cases , if you go from the the , uh i mean , i do n't remember the numbers right off , but if you if you go from the well - matched case to the medium , it 's not an enormous difference in the in the the training - testing situation , and and and it 's a really big performance drop . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: you know , so , um yeah , i mean the reference one , for instance this is back old on , uh on italian uh , was like six percent error for the well - matched and eighteen for the medium - matched and sixty for the for highly - mismatched . uh , and , you know , with these other systems we we helped it out quite a bit , but still there 's there 's something like a factor of two or something between well - matched and medium - matched . and so i think that if what you 're if the goal of this is to come up with robust features , it does mean so you could argue , in fact , that the well - matched is something you should n't be looking at at all , that that the goal is to come up with features that will still give you reasonable performance , you know , with again gentle degregra degradation , um , even though the the testing condition is not the same as the training . phd c: hmm . professor b: so , you know , i i could argue strongly that something like the medium mismatch , which is you know not compl pathological but i mean , what was the the medium - mismatch condition again ? phd a: um , it 's yeah . medium mismatch is everything with the far microphone , but trained on , like , low noisy condition , like low speed and or stopped car and tested on high - speed conditions , i think , like on a highway and professor b: right . phd a: so professor b: so it 's still the same same microphone in both cases , phd a: same microphone but yeah . professor b: but , uh , it 's there 's a mismatch between the car conditions . and that 's uh , you could argue that 's a pretty realistic situation phd c: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , i 'd almost argue for weighting that highest . but the way they have it now , it 's i guess it 's it 's they they compute the relative improvement first and then average that with a weighting ? phd a: yeah . professor b: and so then the that that makes the highly - matched the really big thing . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: um , so , u i since they have these three categories , it seems like the reasonable thing to do is to go across the languages and to come up with an improvement for each of those . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: just say `` ok , in the in the highly - matched case this is what happens , in the m the , uh this other m medium if this happens , in the highly - mismatched that happens `` . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , you should see , uh , a gentle degradation through that . phd a: mmm . professor b: um . but i do n't know . phd a: yeah . professor b: i think that that i i i gather that in these meetings it 's it 's really tricky to make anything ac make any { comment } policy change because everybody has has , uh , their own opinion phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and i do n't know . phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd a: uh , so yeah . yeah , but there is probably a a big change that will be made is that the the baseline th they want to have a new baseline , perhaps , which is , um , mfcc but with a voice activity detector . and apparently , uh , some people are pushing to still keep this fifty percent number . so they want to have at least fifty percent improvement on the baseline , but w which would be a much better baseline . professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: and if we look at the result that sunil sent , just putting the vad in the baseline improved , like , more than twenty percent , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: which would mean then then mean that fifty percent on this new baseline is like , well , more than sixty percent improvement on on o e e uh professor b: so nobody would be there , probably . right ? phd a: right now , nobody would be there , but yeah . professor b: good . work to do . phd a: uh - huh . professor b: so whose vad is is is this a ? phd a: uh , they did n't decide yet . i guess i this was one point of the conference call also , but mmm , so i do n't know . um , but yeah . grad e: oh . professor b: oh , i i think th that would be good . i mean , it 's not that the design of the vad is n't important , but it 's just that it it it does seem to be i uh , a lot of work to do a good job on on that and as well as being a lot of work to do a good job on the feature design , phd a: yeah . professor b: so phd a: yeah . professor b: if we can cut down on that maybe we can make some progress . phd a: m yeah . grad e: hmm . phd a: but i guess perhaps i do n't know w yeah . uh , yeah . per - e s s someone told that perhaps it 's not fair to do that because the , um to make a good vad you do n't have enough to with the the features that are the baseline features . so mmm , you need more features . so you really need to put more more in the in in the front - end . professor b: yeah . phd a: so i professor b: um , phd a: s professor b: sure . but i bu phd c: wait a minute . i i 'm confused . phd a: yeah . phd c: wha - what do you mean ? phd a: yeah , if i professor b: so y so you m s yeah , but well , let 's say for ins see , mfcc for instance does n't have anything in it , uh , related to the pitch . so just just for example . so suppose you 've that what you really wan na do is put a good pitch detector on there and if it gets an unambiguous phd c: oh , oh . i see . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: if it gets an unambiguous result then you 're definitely in a in a in a voice in a , uh , s region with speech . uh . phd c: so there 's this assumption that the v the voice activity detector can only use the mfcc ? phd a: that 's not clear , but this e professor b: well , for the baseline . phd c: yeah . professor b: so so if you use other features then y but it 's just a question of what is your baseline . right ? what is it that you 're supposed to do better than ? phd c: i g yeah . professor b: and so having the baseline be the mfcc 's means that people could choose to pour their ener their effort into trying to do a really good vad phd c: i do n't s but they seem like two separate issues . professor b: or tryi they 're sort of separate . phd c: right ? i mean professor b: unfortunately there 's coupling between them , which is part of what i think stephane is getting to , is that you can choose your features in such a way as to improve the vad . phd a: yeah . professor b: and you also can choose your features in such a way as to prove improve recognition . they may not be the same thing . phd c: but it seems like you should do both . professor b: you should do both phd c: right ? professor b: and and i i think that this still makes i still think this makes sense as a baseline . it 's just saying , as a baseline , we know phd a: mmm . professor b: you know , we had the mfcc 's before , lots of people have done voice activity detectors , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: you might as well pick some voice activity detector and make that the baseline , just like you picked some version of htk and made that the baseline . phd a: yeah . right . professor b: and then let 's try and make everything better . um , and if one of the ways you make it better is by having your features be better features for the vad then that 's so be it . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but , uh , uh , uh , at least you have a starting point that 's um , cuz i i some of the some of the people did n't have a vad at all , i guess . right ? and and phd a: yeah . professor b: then they they looked pretty bad and and in fact what they were doing was n't so bad at all . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: but , um . phd c: yeah . it seems like you should try to make your baseline as good as possible . and if it turns out that you ca n't improve on that , well , i mean , then , you know , nobody wins and you just use mfcc . right ? professor b: yeah . i mean , it seems like , uh , it should include sort of the current state of the art that you want are trying to improve , and mfcc 's , you know , or plp or something it seems like reasonable baseline for the features , and anybody doing this task , uh , is gon na have some sort of voice activity detection at some level , in some way . they might use the whole recognizer to do it but rather than a separate thing , but but they 'll have it on some level . so , um . phd c: it seems like whatever they choose they should n't , you know , purposefully brain - damage a part of the system to make a worse baseline , or professor b: well , i think people just had phd c: you know ? professor b: it was n't that they purposely brain - damaged it . i think people had n't really thought through about the , uh the vad issue . phd c: mmm . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and and then when the the the proposals actually came in and half of them had v a ds and half of them did n't , and the half that did did well and the half that did n't did poorly . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so it 's phd a: mm - hmm . um . professor b: uh . phd a: yeah . so we 'll see what happen with this . and yeah . so what happened since , um , last week is well , from ogi , these experiments on putting vad on the baseline . and these experiments also are using , uh , some kind of noise compensation , so spectral subtraction , and putting on - line normalization , um , just after this . so i think spectral subtraction , lda filtering , and on - line normalization , so which is similar to the pro proposal - one , but with spectral subtraction in addition , and it seems that on - line normalization does n't help further when you have spectral subtraction . phd c: is this related to the issue that you brought up a couple of meetings ago with the the musical tones phd a: i phd c: and ? phd a: i have no idea , because the issue i brought up was with a very simple spectral subtraction approach , phd c: mmm . phd a: and the one that they use at ogi is one from from the proposed the the the aurora prop uh , proposals , which might be much better . so , yeah . i asked sunil for more information about that , but , uh , i do n't know yet . um . and what 's happened here is that we so we have this kind of new , um , reference system which use a nice a a clean downsampling - upsampling , which use a new filter that 's much shorter and which also cuts the frequency below sixty - four hertz , professor b: right . phd a: which was not done on our first proposal . professor b: when you say `` we have that `` , does sunil have it now , too , phd a: i no . professor b: or ? phd a: no . professor b: ok . phd a: because we 're still testing . so we have the result for , uh , just the features professor b: ok . phd a: and we are currently testing with putting the neural network in the klt . um , it seems to improve on the well - matched case , um , but it 's a little bit worse on the mismatch and highly - mismatched i mean when we put the neural network . and with the current weighting i think it 's sh it will be better because the well - matched case is better . mmm . professor b: but how much worse since the weighting might change how how much worse is it on the other conditions , when you say it 's a little worse ? phd a: it 's like , uh , fff , fff { comment } um , { comment } ten percent relative . yeah . professor b: ok . um . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but it has the , uh the latencies are much shorter . that 's phd a: uh - y w when i say it 's worse , it 's not it 's when i i uh , compare proposal - two to proposal - one , so , r uh , y putting neural network compared to n not having any neural network . i mean , this new system is is is better , professor b: uh - huh . phd a: because it has um , this sixty - four hertz cut - off , uh , clean downsampling , and , um what else ? uh , yeah , a good vad . we put the good vad . so . yeah , i do n't know . i i j uh , uh pr professor b: but the latencies but you 've got the latency shorter now . phd a: latency is short is yeah . professor b: yeah . phd f: is n't it phd a: and so professor b: so it 's better than the system that we had before . phd a: yeah . mainly because of the sixty - four hertz and the good vad . professor b: ok . phd a: and then i took this system and , mmm , w uh , i p we put the old filters also . so we have this good system , with good vad , with the short filter and with the long filter , and , um , with the short filter it 's not worse . so well , is it professor b: ok . phd a: it 's in professor b: so that 's that 's all fine . phd a: yes . uh professor b: but what you 're saying is that when you do these so let me try to understand . when when you do these same improvements to proposal - one , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: that , uh , on the i things are somewhat better , uh , in proposal - two for the well - matched case and somewhat worse for the other two cases . phd a: yeah . professor b: so does , uh when you say , uh so the th now that these other things are in there , is it the case maybe that the additions of proposal - two over proposal - one are less im important ? phd a: yeah . probably , yeah . professor b: i get it . phd a: um so , yeah . uh . yeah , but it 's a good thing anyway to have shorter delay . then we tried , um , to do something like proposal - two but having , um , e using also msg features . so there is this klt part , which use just the standard features , professor b: mm - hmm . right . phd a: and then two neura two neural networks . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: mmm , and it does n't seem to help . um , however , we just have one result , which is the italian mismatch , so . uh . we have to wait for that to fill the whole table , but professor b: ok . there was a start of some effort on something related to voicing or something . is that ? phd a: yeah . um , yeah . so basically we try to , uh , find good features that could be used for voicing detection , uh , but it 's still , uh on the , um t phd f: oh , well , i have the picture . phd a: we w basically we are still playing with matlab to to look at at what happened , phd c: what sorts of phd f: yeah . phd a: and phd c: what sorts of features are you looking at ? phd f: we have some phd a: so we would be looking at , um , the variance of the spectrum of the excitation , phd f: uh , um , this , this , and this . phd a: something like this , which is should be high for voiced sounds . uh , we phd c: wait a minute . i what does that mean ? the variance of the spectrum of excitation . phd a: yeah . so the so basically the spectrum of the excitation for a purely periodic sig signal shou sh professor b: ok . yeah , w what yo what you 're calling the excitation , as i recall , is you 're subtracting the the , um the mel mel mel filter , uh , spectrum from the fft spectrum . phd a: e that 's right . yeah . so professor b: right . phd a: yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: so we have the mel f filter bank , we have the fft , so we just professor b: so it 's it 's not really an excitation , phd a: no . professor b: but it 's something that hopefully tells you something about the excitation . phd a: yeah , that 's right . professor b: yeah , yeah . phd a: um yeah . phd f: we have here some histogram , phd a: e yeah , phd f: but they have a lot of overlap . phd a: but it 's it 's still yeah . so , well , for unvoiced portion we have something tha that has a mean around o point three , and for voiced portion the mean is o point fifty - nine . but the variance seem quite high . phd c: how do you know ? phd a: so mmm . phd c: how did you get your voiced and unvoiced truth data ? phd a: we used , uh , timit and we used canonical mappings between the phones phd f: yeah . we , uh , use timit on this , phd a: and phd f: for phd a: th yeah . phd f: but if we look at it in one sentence , it apparently it 's good , i think . phd a: yeah , but yeah . uh , so it 's noisy timit . that 's right . yeah . grad e: it 's noisy timit . phd f: yeah . phd a: it seems quite robust to noise , so when we take we draw its parameters across time for a clean sentence and then nois the same noisy sentence , it 's very close . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . so there are there is this . there could be also the , um something like the maximum of the auto - correlation function or which phd c: is this a a s a trained system ? or is it a system where you just pick some thresholds ? ho - how does it work ? phd a: right now we just are trying to find some features . and , phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: uh yeah . hopefully , i think what we want to have is to put these features in s some kind of , um well , to to obtain a statistical model on these features and to or just to use a neural network and hopefully these features w would help phd c: because it seems like what you said about the mean of the the voiced and the unvoiced { comment } that seemed pretty encouraging . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: well , yeah , except the variance was big . phd c: right ? phd a: yeah . except the variance is quite high . professor b: right ? phd c: well , y phd a: yeah . phd c: well , y i i do n't know that i would trust that so much because you 're doing these canonical mappings from timit labellings . phd a: uh - huh . phd c: right ? so , really that 's sort of a cartoon picture about what 's voiced and unvoiced . so that could be giving you a lot of variance . phd a: yeah . phd c: i mean , i it it may be that that you 're finding something good and that the variance is sort of artificial because of how you 're getting your truth . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . but another way of looking at it might be that i mean , what w we we are coming up with feature sets after all . so another way of looking at it is that um , the mel cepstru mel spectrum , mel cepstrum , any of these variants , um , give you the smooth spectrum . it 's the spectral envelope . by going back to the fft , you 're getting something that is more like the raw data . so the question is , what characterization and you 're playing around with this another way of looking at it is what characterization of the difference between the raw data and this smooth version is something that you 're missing that could help ? so , i mean , looking at different statistical measures of that difference , coming up with some things and just trying them out and seeing if you add them onto the feature vector does that make things better or worse in noise , where you 're really just i i the way i 'm looking at it is not so much you 're trying to f find the best the world 's best voiced - unvoiced , uh , uh , classifier , phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: mmm . professor b: but it 's more that , you know , uh , uh , try some different statistical characterizations of that difference back to the raw data phd c: right . professor b: and and m maybe there 's something there that the system can use . phd c: right . phd a: yeah . yeah , but ther more obvious is that yeah . the the more obvious is that that well , using the th the fft , um , you just it gives you just information about if it 's voiced or not voiced , ma mainly , i mean . but so , professor b: yeah . phd a: this is why we we started to look by having sort of voiced phonemes professor b: well , that 's the rea w w what i 'm arguing is that 's yeah . i mean , uh , what i 'm arguing is that that that 's givi you gives you your intuition . phd a: and mm - hmm . professor b: but in in reality , it 's you know , there 's all of this this overlap and so forth , grad e: oh , sorry . professor b: and but what i 'm saying is that may be ok , because what you 're really getting is not actually voiced versus unvoiced , both for the fac the reason of the overlap and and then , uh , th you know , structural reasons , uh , uh , like the one that chuck said , that that in fact , well , the data itself is that you 're working with is not perfect . phd a: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: so , what i 'm saying is maybe that 's not a killer because you 're just getting some characterization , one that 's driven by your intuition about voiced - unvoiced certainly , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but it 's just some characterization of something back in the in the in the almost raw data , rather than the smooth version . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and your intuition is driving you towards particular kinds of , uh , statistical characterizations of , um , what 's missing from the spectral envelope . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: um , obviously you have something about the excitation , um , and what is it about the excitation , and , you know and you 're not getting the excitation anyway , you know . so so i i would almost take a uh , especially if if these trainings and so forth are faster , i would almost just take a uh , a scattershot at a few different ways of look of characterizing that difference and , uh , you could have one of them but and and see , you know , which of them helps . phd a: mm - hmm . ok . phd c: so i is the idea that you 're going to take whatever features you develop and and just add them onto the future vector ? or , what 's the use of the the voiced - unvoiced detector ? phd a: uh , i guess we do n't know exactly yet . but , um yeah . th phd c: it 's not part of a vad system that you 're doing ? phd f: no . phd a: uh , no . no . phd c: oh , ok . phd a: no , the idea was , i guess , to to use them as as features . phd c: features . i see . phd a: uh yeah , it could be , uh it could be a neural network that does voiced and unvoiced detection , phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: but it could be in the also the big neural network that does phoneme classification . phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: mmm . yeah . professor b: but each one of the mixture components i mean , you have , uh , uh , variance only , so it 's kind of like you 're just multiplying together these , um , probabilities from the individual features within each mixture . so it 's so , uh , it seems l you know phd c: i think it 's a neat thing . uh , it seems like a good idea . professor b: yeah . um . yeah . i mean , i know that , um , people doing some robustness things a ways back were were just doing just being gross and just throwing in the fft and actually it was n't was n't was n't so bad . uh , so it would s and and you know that i it 's got ta hurt you a little bit to not have a a spectral , uh a s a smooth spectral envelope , so there must be something else that you get in return for that phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: that , uh uh so . phd c: so how does uh , maybe i 'm going in too much detail , but how exactly do you make the difference between the fft and the smoothed spectral envelope ? wha - wh i i uh , how is that , uh ? phd a: um , we just how did we do it up again ? phd f: uh , we distend the we have the twenty - three coefficient af after the mel f filter , phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: and we extend these coefficient between the all the frequency range . phd c: mm - hmm . phd f: and i the interpolation i between the point is give for the triang triangular filter , the value of the triangular filter and of this way we obtained this mode this model speech . phd a: s professor b: so you essentially take the values that th that you get from the triangular filter and extend them to sor sort of like a rectangle , that 's at that m value . phd f: yeah . phd a: yeah . i think we have linear interpolation . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: so we have we have one point for one energy for each filter bank , phd f: mmm yeah , it 's linear . phd c: mmm . professor b: oh . phd a: which is the energy that 's centered on on on the triangle phd f: yeah . at the n at the center of the filter phd c: so you you end up with a vector that 's the same length as the fft vector ? phd a: yeah . that 's right . phd f: yeah . phd c: and then you just , uh , compute differences phd f: yeah . i have here one example if you if you want see something like that . phd a: then we compute the difference . phd c: and , phd a: yeah . uh - huh . professor b: ok . phd c: uh , sum the differences ? phd a: so . and i think the variance is computed only from , like , two hundred hertz to one to fifteen hundred . phd c: oh ! ok . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: two thou two { comment } fifteen hundred ? professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: because phd f: no . professor b: right . phd f: two hundred and fifty thousand . phd a: fifteen hundred . because yeah . phd f: yeah . two thousand and fifteen hundred . phd a: above , um it seems that well , some voiced sound can have also , like , a noisy part on high frequencies , and but professor b: yeah . phd a: well , it 's just professor b: no , it 's makes sense to look at low frequencies . phd c: so this is uh , basically this is comparing an original version of the signal to a smoothed version of the same signal ? phd f: yeah . professor b: right . so i so i i this is i mean , i you could argue about whether it should be linear interpolation or or or or zeroeth order , but but phd c: uh - huh . professor b: at any rate something like this is what you 're feeding your recognizer , typically . phd c: like which of the ? professor b: no . uh , so the mel cepstrum is the is the is the cepstrum of this this , uh , spectrum or log spectrum , phd a: so this is yeah . phd c: yeah . right , right . professor b: whatever it you - you 're subtracting in in in power domain or log domain ? phd a: in log domain . yeah . phd f: log domain . professor b: ok . so it 's sort of like division , when you do the yeah , the spectra . phd f: yeah . phd a: uh , yeah . phd c: it 's the ratio . professor b: um . yeah . but , anyway , um and that 's phd c: so what 's th uh , what 's the intuition behind this kind of a thing ? i i do n't know really know the signal - processing well enough to understand what what is that doing . phd a: so . yeah . what happen if what we have have what we would like to have is some spectrum of the excitation signal , professor b: yeah . i guess that makes sense . yeah . phd a: which is for voiced sound ideally a a pulse train phd c: uh - huh . phd a: and for unvoiced it 's something that 's more flat . phd c: uh - huh . right . phd a: and the way to do this is that well , we have the we have the fft because it 's computed in in the in the system , and we have the mel filter banks , phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: and so if we if we , like , remove the mel filter bank from the fft , we have something that 's close to the excitation signal . grad e: oh . phd a: it 's something that 's like a a a train of p a pulse train for voiced sound phd c: ok . professor b: yeah . phd c: oh ! ok . yeah . phd a: and that 's that should be flat for professor b: yeah . phd c: i see . so do you have a picture that sh ? phd a: so - it 's y phd c: is this for a voiced segment , phd a: yeah . phd c: this picture ? what does it look like for unvoiced ? phd f: yeah . phd a: you have several some unvoiced ? phd f: the dif no . unvoiced , i do n't have phd a: oh . phd f: for unvoiced . professor b: yeah . so , you know , all phd f: i 'm sorry . phd a: but yeah . professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah . this is the between phd a: this is another voiced example . yeah . phd f: no . but it 's this , phd a: oh , yeah . this is phd f: but between the frequency that we are considered for the excitation phd a: right . mm - hmm . phd f: for the difference and this is the difference . phd a: yeah . phd c: this is the difference . ok . phd a: so , of course , it 's around zero , professor b: yeah . grad e: sure looks phd a: but grad e: hmm . phd a: well , no . phd c: hmm . phd a: it is phd f: yeah . because we begin , uh , in fifteen point the fifteen point . phd c: so , does does the periodicity of this signal say something about the the phd f: fifteen p phd a: so it 's yeah . professor b: pitch . phd a: it 's the pitch . phd c: the pitch ? phd a: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd c: ok . professor b: that 's like fundamental frequency . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: so , i mean , i t t phd c: ok . i see . professor b: i mean , to first order what you 'd what you 're doing i mean , ignore all the details and all the ways which is that these are complete lies . uh , the the you know , what you 're doing in feature extraction for speech recognition is you have , uh , in your head a a a a simplified production model for speech , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: in which you have a periodic or aperiodic source that 's driving some filters . phd c: mm - hmm . phd f: yeah . this is the the auto - correlation the r - zero energy . phd a: do you have the mean do you have the mean for the auto - correlation ? professor b: uh , first order for speech recognition , you say `` i do n't care about the source `` . phd f: for yeah . phd a: well , i mean for the the energy . phd f: i have the mean . professor b: right ? phd c: right . professor b: and so you just want to find out what the filters are . phd c: right . phd f: yeah . professor b: the filters roughly act like a , um a , uh a an overall resonant you know , f some resonances and so forth that th that 's processing excitation . phd f: here . phd a: they should be more close . phd f: ah , no . this is this ? more close . is this ? and this . phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: so they are this is there is less difference . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so if you look at the spectral envelope , just the very smooth properties of it , you get something closer to that . phd a: this is less it 's less robust . phd f: less robust . yeah . phd a: oh , yeah . professor b: and the notion is if you have the full spectrum , with all the little nitty - gritty details , that that has the effect of both , phd c: yeah . professor b: and it would be a multiplication in in frequency domain phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so that would be like an addition in log power spectrum domain . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: and so this is saying , well , if you really do have that sort of vocal tract envelope , and you subtract that off , what you get is the excitation . and i call that lies because you do n't really have that , you just have some kind of signal - processing trickery to get something that 's kind of smooth . it 's not really what 's happening in the vocal tract phd c: yeah . professor b: so you 're not really getting the vocal excitation . phd c: right . professor b: that 's why i was going to the why i was referring to it in a more a more , uh , uh , conservative way , when i was saying `` well , it 's yeah , it 's the excitation `` . but it 's not really the excitation . it 's whatever it is that 's different between phd c: oh . this moved in the professor b: so so , stand standing back from that , you sort of say there 's this very detailed representation . phd c: yeah . professor b: you go to a smooth representation . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: you go to a smooth representation cuz this typically generalizes better . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: um , but whenever you smooth you lose something , so the question is have you lost something you can you use ? phd c: right . professor b: um , probably you would n't want to go to the extreme of just ta saying `` ok , our feature set will be the fft `` , cuz we really think we do gain something in robustness from going to something smoother , but maybe there 's something that we missed . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so what is it ? phd c: yeah . professor b: and then you go back to the intuition that , well , you do n't really get the excitation , but you get something related to it . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: and it and as you can see from those pictures , you do get something that shows some periodicity , uh , in frequency , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: you know , and and and also in time . phd c: hmm . professor b: so phd c: that 's that 's really neat . professor b: so , phd c: so you do n't have one for unvoiced picture ? phd f: uh , not here . phd c: oh . phd f: no , i have s phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd f: but not here . professor b: but presumably you 'll see something that wo n't have this kind of , uh , uh , uh , regularity in frequency , uh , in the phd a: but yeah . well . phd f: not here . phd c: i would li i would like to see those pictures . phd f: well , so . professor b: yeah . phd f: i ca n't see you { comment } now . professor b: yeah . phd c: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: i do n't have . phd c: and so you said this is pretty doing this kind of thing is pretty robust to noise ? phd a: it seems , yeah . um , phd c: huh . phd f: pfft . oops . the mean is different with it , because the the histogram for the the classifica phd a: no , no , no . but th the kind of robustness to noise phd f: oh ! phd a: so if if you take this frame , uh , from the noisy utterance and the same frame from the clean utterance phd f: hmm . phd c: you end up with a similar difference phd a: y y y yeah . we end up with phd c: over here ? phd a: yeah . phd c: ok . cool ! phd f: i have here the same frame for the clean speech phd c: oh , that 's clean . phd f: the same cle phd c: oh , ok phd f: but they are a difference . phd a: yeah , that 's phd f: because here the fft is only with two hundred fifty - six point phd c: oh . phd f: and this is with five hundred twelve . phd a: yeah . this is kind of inter interesting also phd c: ok . phd a: because if we use the standard , uh , frame length of of , like , twenty - five milliseconds , um , what happens is that for low - pitched voiced , because of the frame length , y you do n't really have you do n't clearly see this periodic structure , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: because of the first lobe of of each each of the harmonics . phd c: so this one inclu is a longer ah . phd a: so , this is like yeah , fifty milliseconds or something like that . phd f: fifty millis yeah . phd a: yeah , but it 's the same frame and phd c: oh , it 's that time - frequency trade - off thing . phd a: yeah . phd c: right ? i see . yeah . phd a: so , yeah . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: oh . oh , so this i is this the difference here , for that ? phd f: no . this is the signal . this is the signal . phd a: i see that . oh , yeah . phd f: the frame . phd c: oh , that 's the f the original . phd a: yeah . phd f: this is the fra the original frame . phd a: so with a short frame basically you have only two periods phd c: yeah . phd a: and it 's not not enough to to have this kind of neat things . phd c: mm - hmm . phd f: mm - hmm . phd c: yeah . phd a: but phd f: and here no , well . phd a: yeah . so probably we 'll have to use , like , long f long frames . mm - hmm . phd c: mm - hmm . grad e: hmm . phd c: oh . professor b: mmm . phd c: that 's interesting . professor b: yeah , maybe . well , i mean it looks better , but , i mean , the thing is if if , uh if you 're actually asking you know , if you actually j uh , need to do place along an fft , it may be it may be pushing things . phd a: yeah . professor b: and and , uh phd c: would you would you wan na do this kind of , uh , difference thing after you do spectral subtraction ? phd a: uh , maybe . phd f: no . maybe we can do that . phd a: mmm . professor b: hmm . the spectral subtraction is being done at what level ? is it being done at the level of fft bins or at the level of , uh , mel spectrum or something ? phd a: um , i guess it depends . professor b: i mean , how are they doing it ? phd a: how they 're doing it ? yeah . um , i guess ericsson is on the , um , filter bank , phd f: fft . filter bank , phd a: no ? it 's on the filter bank , phd f: yeah . phd a: so . so , yeah , probably i i it yeah . professor b: so in that case , it might not make much difference at all . phd c: seems like you 'd wan na do it on the fft bins . professor b: maybe . i mean , certainly it 'd be better . phd c: i i mean , if you were gon na uh , for for this purpose , that is . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . ok . phd a: mmm . professor b: what else ? phd a: uh . yeah , that 's all . so we 'll perhaps try to convince ogi people to use the new the new filters and yeah . professor b: ok . uh , has has anything happened yet on this business of having some sort of standard , uh , source , phd a: uh , not yet professor b: or ? phd a: but i wi i will call them and professor b: ok . phd a: now they are i think they have more time because they have this well , eurospeech deadline is over phd c: when is the next , um , aurora deadline ? phd a: and it 's , um , in june . yeah . phd c: june . professor b: early june , late june , middle june ? phd a: i do n't know w professor b: hmm . grad e: hmm . professor b: ok . um , and he 's been doing all the talking but but these he 's he 's , uh phd f: yeah . professor b: this is this by the way a bad thing . we 're trying to get , um , m more female voices in this record as well . so . make sur make sure carmen talks as well . uh , but has he pretty much been talking about what you 're doing also , and ? phd f: oh , i i am doing this . professor b: yes . phd f: yeah , yeah . i do n't know . i 'm sorry , but i think that for the recognizer for the meeting recorder that it 's better that i do n't speak . professor b: yeah , well . phd f: because professor b: you know , uh , we 'll get we 'll get to , uh , spanish voices sometime , and we do we want to recognize , uh , you too . phd f: after the after , uh , the result for the ti - digits on the meeting record there will be foreigns people . phd a: yeah , but professor b: oh , no . phd c: y professor b: we like we we 're we 're w we are we 're in the , uh , bourlard - hermansky - morgan , uh , frame of mind . yeah , we like high error rates . it 's phd a: yeah . professor b: that way there 's lots of work to do . so it 's uh , anything to talk about ? grad d: n um , not not not much is new . so when i talked about what i 'm planning to do last time , i said i was , um , going to use avendano 's method of , um , using a transformation , um , to map from long analysis frames which are used for removing reverberation to short analysis frames for feature calculation . he has a trick for doing that involving viewing the dft as a matrix . um , but , uh , um , i decided not to do that after all because i i realized to use it i 'd need to have these short analysis frames get plugged directly into the feature computation somehow professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: and right now i think our feature computation is set to up to , um , take , um , audio as input , in general . so i decided that i i 'll do the reverberation removal on the long analysis windows and then just re - synthesize audio and then send that . professor b: this is in order to use the sri system or something . right ? grad d: um , or or even if i 'm using our system , i was thinking it might be easier to just re - synthesize the audio , professor b: yeah ? grad d: because then i could just feacalc as is and i would n't have to change the code . professor b: oh , ok . yeah . i mean , it 's um , certainly in a short short - term this just sounds easier . grad d: uh - huh . professor b: yeah . i mean , longer - term if it 's if it turns out to be useful , one one might want to do something else , grad d: right . that 's true . professor b: but uh , uh , i mean , in in other words , you you may be putting other kinds of errors in from the re - synthesis process . grad d: but e u from the re - synthesis ? um , professor b: yeah . grad d: o - ok . i do n't know anything about re - synthesis . uh , how likely do you think that is ? professor b: uh , it depends what you what you do . i mean , it 's it 's it 's , uh , um do n't know . but anyway it sounds like a reasonable way to go for a for an initial thing , and we can look at at exactly what you end up doing and and then figure out if there 's some something that could be be hurt by the end part of the process . grad d: ok . professor b: ok . so that 's that was it , huh ? grad d: that yeah , e that 's it , that 's it . professor b: ok . ok . grad d: uh - huh . professor b: um , anything to add ? grad e: um . well , i 've been continuing reading . i went off on a little tangent this past week , um , looking at , uh , uh , modulation s spectrum stuff , um , and and learning a bit about what what , um what it is , and , uh , the importance of it in speech recognition . and i found some some , uh , neat papers , um , historical papers from , um , kanedera , hermansky , and arai . professor b: yeah . grad e: and they they did a lot of experiments where th where , um , they take speech and , um , e they modify the , uh they they they measure the relative importance of having different , um , portions of the modulation spectrum intact . professor b: yeah . grad e: and they find that the the spectrum between one and sixteen hertz in the modulation is , uh is im important for speech recognition . professor b: sure . i mean , this sort of goes back to earlier stuff by drullman . grad e: um . professor b: and and , uh , the the msg features were sort of built up with this notion grad e: yeah . right . professor b: but , i guess , i thought you had brought this up in the context of , um , targets somehow . grad e: right . professor b: but i m grad e: um professor b: i it 's not i mean , they 're sort of not in the same kind of category as , say , a phonetic target or a syllabic target grad e: mmm . mm - hmm . professor b: or a grad e: um , i was thinking more like using them as as the inputs to to the detectors . professor b: or a feature or something . oh , i see . well , that 's sort of what msg does . grad e: yeah . yeah . professor b: right ? so it 's grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: but but , uh grad e: s professor b: yeah . grad e: yeah . professor b: anyway , we 'll talk more about it later . grad e: ok . professor b: yeah . grad e: we can talk more about it later . professor b: yeah . yeah . grad e: yeah . professor b: so maybe , le phd c: should we do digits ? professor b: let 's do digits . let you you start . grad d: oh , ok . grad e: l fifty . phd a: right .

the feature classification had means of 0.3 for voiced and 0.59 for unvoiced on voice-unvoice , though the variance was quite high . the team was using timit and was in the stage of looking for features . the professor thought that the team 's intuition was leading them to make statistical characterizations of what was missing from the spectral envelope . they could use things they were potentially losing in the smoothing process .

what did the professor think about the voice-unvoice characterization ? </s> phd a: it 's not very significant . professor b: uh , channel one . yes . grad d: channel three . professor b: ok . phd f: mm - hmm . grad d: channel three . phd a: ta grad d: channel three . alright . professor b: ok , did you solve speech recognition last week ? grad e: almost . professor b: alright ! let 's do image processing . phd c: yes , again . phd a: great . phd c: we did it again , morgan . professor b: alright ! grad e: doo - doop , doo - doo . phd a: what 's wrong with ? professor b: ok . it 's april fifth . actually , hynek should be getting back in town shortly if he is n't already . phd c: is he gon na come here ? professor b: uh . well , we 'll drag him here . i know where he is . phd c: so when you said `` in town `` , you mean oregon . professor b: u u u u uh , i meant , you know , this end of the world , yeah , is really what i meant , phd c: oh . grad e: doo , doo - doo . professor b: uh , cuz he 's been in europe . grad e: doo - doo . professor b: so . phd c: i have something just fairly brief to report on . professor b: mmm . phd c: um , i did some experim uh , uh , just a few more experiments before i had to , uh , go away for the w well , that week . professor b: great ! phd c: was it last week or whenever ? um , so what i was started playing with was the th again , this is the htk back - end . and , um , i was curious because the way that they train up the models , they go through about four sort of rounds of of training . and in the first round they do uh , i think it 's three iterations , and for the last three rounds e e they do seven iterations of re - estimation in each of those three . and so , you know , that 's part of what takes so long to train the the the back - end for this . professor b: i 'm sorry , i did n't quite get that . there 's there 's four and there 's seven and i i 'm sorry . phd c: yeah . uh , maybe i should write it on the board . so , there 's four rounds of training . um , i g i g i guess you could say iterations . the first one is three , then seven , seven , and seven . and what these numbers refer to is the number of times that the , uh , hmm re - estimation is run . it 's this program called h e professor b: but in htk , what 's the difference between , uh , a an inner loop and an outer loop in these iterations ? phd c: ok . so what happens is , um , at each one of these points , you increase the number of gaussians in the model . professor b: yeah . oh , right ! this was the mix up stuff . phd c: yeah . the mix up . professor b: that 's right . phd c: right . professor b: i remember now . phd c: and so , in the final one here , you end up with , uh for all of the the digit words , you end up with , uh , three mixtures per state , professor b: yeah . phd c: eh , in the final thing . so i had done some experiments where i was i i want to play with the number of mixtures . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: but , um , uh , i wanted to first test to see if we actually need to do this many iterations early on . grad e: uh , one , two , professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: and so , um , i i ran a couple of experiments where i reduced that to l to be three , two , two , uh , five , i think , and i got almost the exact same results . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: and but it runs much much faster . so , um , i i think m it only took something like , uh , three or four hours to do the full training , professor b: as opposed to ? phd f: good . phd c: as opposed to wh what , sixteen hours or something like that ? i mean , it takes you have to do an overnight basically , the way it is set up now . phd f: yeah . it depends . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: so , uh , even we do n't do anything else , doing something like this could allow us to turn experiments around a lot faster . professor b: and then when you have your final thing , do a full one , so it 's phd c: and when you have your final thing , we go back to this . phd f: yeah . phd c: so , um , and it 's a real simple change to make . i mean , it 's like one little text file you edit and change those numbers , and you do n't do anything else . phd f: oh , this is a phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: and then you just run . phd f: ok . phd c: so it 's a very simple change to make and it does n't seem to hurt all that much . phd a: so you you run with three , two , two , five ? that 's a phd c: so i uh , i i have to look to see what the exact numbers were . phd a: yeah . phd c: i i thought was , like , three , two , two , five , phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: but i i 'll i 'll double check . it was over a week ago that i did it , phd a: ok . mm - hmm . phd c: so i ca n't remember exactly . grad e: oh . phd c: but , uh professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: um , but it 's so much faster . i it makes a big difference . grad e: hmm . phd c: so we could do a lot more experiments and throw a lot more stuff in there . phd f: yeah . professor b: that 's great . phd c: um . oh , the other thing that i did was , um , i compiled the htk stuff for the linux boxes . so we have this big thing that we got from ibm , which is a five - processor machine . really fast , but it 's running linux . so , you can now run your experiments on that machine and you can run five at a time and it runs , uh , as fast as , you know , uh , five different machines . phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: mm - hmm . phd c: so , um , i 've forgotten now what the name of that machine is but i can i can send email around about it . phd a: yeah . phd c: and so we 've got it now htk 's compiled for both the linux and for , um , the sparcs . um , you have to make you have to make sure that in your dot cshrc , um , it detects whether you 're running on the linux or a a sparc and points to the right executables . uh , and you may not have had that in your dot cshrc before , if you were always just running the sparc . so , um , phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: uh , i can i can tell you exactly what you need to do to get all of that to work . but it 'll it really increases what we can run on . grad e: hmm . cool . phd c: so , together with the fact that we 've got these faster linux boxes and that it takes less time to do these , um , we should be able to crank through a lot more experiments . phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: so . grad e: hmm . phd c: so after i did that , then what i wanted to do { comment } was try increasing the number of mixtures , just to see , um see how how that affects performance . phd a: yeah . phd c: so . professor b: yeah . in fact , you could do something like keep exactly the same procedure and then add a fifth thing onto it phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: that had more . phd c: exactly . professor b: yeah . phd c: right . right . grad e: so at at the middle o where the arrows are showing , that 's you 're adding one more mixture per state , phd c: uh - huh . uh , grad e: or ? phd c: let 's see , uh . it goes from this uh , try to go it backwards this at this point it 's two mixtures per state . so this just adds one . except that , uh , actually for the silence model , it 's six mixtures per state . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: uh , so it goes to two . grad e: ok . phd c: um . and i think what happens here is professor b: might be between , uh , shared , uh shared variances or something , phd c: yeah . i think that 's what it is . professor b: or phd c: uh , yeah . it 's , uh shoot . i i i ca n't remember now what happens at that first one . uh , i have to look it up and see . grad e: oh , ok . phd c: um , there because they start off with , uh , an initial model which is just this global model , and then they split it to the individuals . and so , it may be that that 's what 's happening here . i i i have to look it up and see . i i do n't exactly remember . grad e: ok . professor b: ok . phd c: so . that 's it . professor b: alright . so what else ? phd a: um . yeah . there was a conference call this tuesday . um . i do n't know yet the what happened tuesday , but the points that they were supposed to discuss is still , uh , things like the weights , uh professor b: oh , this is a conference call for , uh , uh , aurora participant sort of thing . grad e: for phd a: yeah . yeah . professor b: i see . phd a: mmm . professor b: do you know who was who was since we were n't in on it , uh , do you know who was in from ogi ? was was was hynek involved or was it sunil phd a: i have no idea . professor b: or ? phd a: mmm , i just professor b: oh , you do n't know . ok . phd a: yeah . professor b: alright . phd a: um , yeah . so the points were the the weights how to weight the different error rates that are obtained from different language and and conditions . um , it 's not clear that they will keep the same kind of weighting . right now it 's a weighting on on improvement . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: some people are arguing that it would be better to have weights on uh well , to to combine error rates before computing improvement . uh , and the fact is that for right now for the english , they have weights they they combine error rates , but for the other languages they combine improvement . so it 's not very consistent . um professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . the , um yeah . and so well , this is a point . and right now actually there is a thing also , uh , that happens with the current weight is that a very non - significant improvement on the well - matched case result in huge differences in in the final number . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: and so , perhaps they will change the weights to phd c: hmm . phd a: yeah . phd c: how should that be done ? i mean , it it seems like there 's a simple way phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: uh , this seems like an obvious mistake or something . professor b: well , i mean , the fact that it 's inconsistent is an obvious mistake . phd c: th - they 're professor b: but the but , um , the other thing phd a: in professor b: i do n't know i have n't thought it through , but one one would think that each it it 's like if you say what 's the what 's the best way to do an average , an arithmetic average or a geometric average ? phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: it depends what you wan na show . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: each each one is gon na have a different characteristic . phd a: yeah . professor b: so phd c: well , it seems like they should do , like , the percentage improvement or something , rather than the absolute improvement . phd a: tha - that 's what they do . professor b: well , they are doing that . phd a: yeah . professor b: no , that is relative . but the question is , do you average the relative improvements or do you average the error rates and take the relative improvement maybe of that ? phd a: yeah . yeah . professor b: and the thing is it 's not just a pure average because there are these weightings . phd c: oh . professor b: it 's a weighted average . um . phd a: yeah . and so when you average the the relative improvement it tends to to give a lot of of , um , importance to the well - matched case because the baseline is already very good and , um , i it 's phd c: why do n't they not look at improvements but just look at your av your scores ? you know , figure out how to combine the scores phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: with a weight or whatever , and then give you a score here 's your score . and then they can do the same thing for the baseline system and here 's its score . and then you can look at phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: well , that 's what he 's seeing as one of the things they could do . phd a: yeah . professor b: it 's just when you when you get all done , i think that they pro i m i i was n't there but i think they started off this process with the notion that you should be significantly better than the previous standard . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: and , um , so they said `` how much is significantly better ? what do you ? `` and and so they said `` well , you know , you should have half the errors , `` or something , `` that you had before `` . phd a: mm - hmm . hmm . phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . professor b: so it 's , uh , but it does seem like phd c: hmm . professor b: i i it does seem like it 's more logical to combine them first and then do the phd a: combine error rates and then professor b: yeah . phd a: yeah . well professor b: yeah . phd a: but there is this this is this still this problem of weights . when when you combine error rate it tends to give more importance to the difficult cases , and some people think that professor b: oh , yeah ? phd a: well , they have different , um , opinions about this . some people think that it 's more important to look at to have ten percent imp relative improvement on well - matched case than to have fifty percent on the m mismatched , and other people think that it 's more important to improve a lot on the mismatch and so , bu phd c: it sounds like they do n't really have a good idea about what the final application is gon na be . phd a: l de fff ! mmm . professor b: well , you know , the the thing is that if you look at the numbers on the on the more difficult cases , um , if you really believe that was gon na be the predominant use , none of this would be good enough . phd a: yeah . mmm . yeah . professor b: nothing anybody 's phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: whereas you sort of with some reasonable error recovery could imagine in the better cases that these these systems working . so , um , i think the hope would be that it would uh , it would work well for the good cases and , uh , it would have reasonable reas soft degradation as you got to worse and worse conditions . um . phd c: yeah . i i guess what i 'm i mean , i i was thinking about it in terms of , if i were building the final product and i was gon na test to see which front - end i 'd i wanted to use , i would try to weight things depending on the exact environment that i was gon na be using the system in . professor b: but but no . phd c: if i professor b: well , no well , no . i mean , it is n't the operating theater . i mean , they don they they do n't they do n't really know , i think . phd c: yeah . professor b: i mean , i th phd c: so if if they do n't know , does n't that suggest the way for them to go ? uh , you assume everything 's equal . i mean , y y i mean , you professor b: well , i mean , i i think one thing to do is to just not rely on a single number to maybe have two or three numbers , phd c: yeah . professor b: you know , phd c: right . professor b: and and and say here 's how much you , uh you improve the , uh the the relatively clean case and here 's or or well - matched case , and here 's how here 's how much you , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: uh phd c: so not professor b: so . phd c: so not try to combine them . professor b: yeah . uh , actually it 's true . phd c: yeah . professor b: uh , i had forgotten this , uh , but , uh , well - matched is not actually clean . what it is is just that , u uh , the training and testing are similar . phd c: the training and testing . phd a: mmm . professor b: so , i guess what you would do in practice is you 'd try to get as many , uh , examples of similar sort of stuff as you could , and then , phd c: yeah . professor b: uh so the argument for that being the the the more important thing , is that you 're gon na try and do that , but you wan na see how badly it deviates from that when when when the , uh it 's a little different . phd c: so professor b: um , phd c: so you should weight those other conditions v very you know , really small . professor b: but no . that 's a that 's a that 's an arg phd c: i mean , that 's more of an information kind of thing . professor b: that 's an ar well , that 's an argument for it , but let me give you the opposite argument . the opposite argument is you 're never really gon na have a good sample of all these different things . phd c: uh - huh . professor b: i mean , are you gon na have w uh , uh , examples with the windows open , half open , full open ? going seventy , sixty , fifty , forty miles an hour ? on what kind of roads ? phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: with what passing you ? with uh , i mean , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: i i i think that you could make the opposite argument that the well - matched case is a fantasy . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: you know , so , grad e: uh - huh . professor b: i think the thing is is that if you look at the well - matched case versus the po you know , the the medium and the and the fo and then the mismatched case , um , we 're seeing really , really big differences in performance . right ? and and y you would n't like that to be the case . you would n't like that as soon as you step outside you know , a lot of the the cases it 's is phd c: well , that 'll teach them to roll their window up . professor b: i mean , in these cases , if you go from the the , uh i mean , i do n't remember the numbers right off , but if you if you go from the well - matched case to the medium , it 's not an enormous difference in the in the the training - testing situation , and and and it 's a really big performance drop . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: you know , so , um yeah , i mean the reference one , for instance this is back old on , uh on italian uh , was like six percent error for the well - matched and eighteen for the medium - matched and sixty for the for highly - mismatched . uh , and , you know , with these other systems we we helped it out quite a bit , but still there 's there 's something like a factor of two or something between well - matched and medium - matched . and so i think that if what you 're if the goal of this is to come up with robust features , it does mean so you could argue , in fact , that the well - matched is something you should n't be looking at at all , that that the goal is to come up with features that will still give you reasonable performance , you know , with again gentle degregra degradation , um , even though the the testing condition is not the same as the training . phd c: hmm . professor b: so , you know , i i could argue strongly that something like the medium mismatch , which is you know not compl pathological but i mean , what was the the medium - mismatch condition again ? phd a: um , it 's yeah . medium mismatch is everything with the far microphone , but trained on , like , low noisy condition , like low speed and or stopped car and tested on high - speed conditions , i think , like on a highway and professor b: right . phd a: so professor b: so it 's still the same same microphone in both cases , phd a: same microphone but yeah . professor b: but , uh , it 's there 's a mismatch between the car conditions . and that 's uh , you could argue that 's a pretty realistic situation phd c: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , i 'd almost argue for weighting that highest . but the way they have it now , it 's i guess it 's it 's they they compute the relative improvement first and then average that with a weighting ? phd a: yeah . professor b: and so then the that that makes the highly - matched the really big thing . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: um , so , u i since they have these three categories , it seems like the reasonable thing to do is to go across the languages and to come up with an improvement for each of those . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: just say `` ok , in the in the highly - matched case this is what happens , in the m the , uh this other m medium if this happens , in the highly - mismatched that happens `` . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , you should see , uh , a gentle degradation through that . phd a: mmm . professor b: um . but i do n't know . phd a: yeah . professor b: i think that that i i i gather that in these meetings it 's it 's really tricky to make anything ac make any { comment } policy change because everybody has has , uh , their own opinion phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and i do n't know . phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd a: uh , so yeah . yeah , but there is probably a a big change that will be made is that the the baseline th they want to have a new baseline , perhaps , which is , um , mfcc but with a voice activity detector . and apparently , uh , some people are pushing to still keep this fifty percent number . so they want to have at least fifty percent improvement on the baseline , but w which would be a much better baseline . professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: and if we look at the result that sunil sent , just putting the vad in the baseline improved , like , more than twenty percent , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: which would mean then then mean that fifty percent on this new baseline is like , well , more than sixty percent improvement on on o e e uh professor b: so nobody would be there , probably . right ? phd a: right now , nobody would be there , but yeah . professor b: good . work to do . phd a: uh - huh . professor b: so whose vad is is is this a ? phd a: uh , they did n't decide yet . i guess i this was one point of the conference call also , but mmm , so i do n't know . um , but yeah . grad e: oh . professor b: oh , i i think th that would be good . i mean , it 's not that the design of the vad is n't important , but it 's just that it it it does seem to be i uh , a lot of work to do a good job on on that and as well as being a lot of work to do a good job on the feature design , phd a: yeah . professor b: so phd a: yeah . professor b: if we can cut down on that maybe we can make some progress . phd a: m yeah . grad e: hmm . phd a: but i guess perhaps i do n't know w yeah . uh , yeah . per - e s s someone told that perhaps it 's not fair to do that because the , um to make a good vad you do n't have enough to with the the features that are the baseline features . so mmm , you need more features . so you really need to put more more in the in in the front - end . professor b: yeah . phd a: so i professor b: um , phd a: s professor b: sure . but i bu phd c: wait a minute . i i 'm confused . phd a: yeah . phd c: wha - what do you mean ? phd a: yeah , if i professor b: so y so you m s yeah , but well , let 's say for ins see , mfcc for instance does n't have anything in it , uh , related to the pitch . so just just for example . so suppose you 've that what you really wan na do is put a good pitch detector on there and if it gets an unambiguous phd c: oh , oh . i see . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: if it gets an unambiguous result then you 're definitely in a in a in a voice in a , uh , s region with speech . uh . phd c: so there 's this assumption that the v the voice activity detector can only use the mfcc ? phd a: that 's not clear , but this e professor b: well , for the baseline . phd c: yeah . professor b: so so if you use other features then y but it 's just a question of what is your baseline . right ? what is it that you 're supposed to do better than ? phd c: i g yeah . professor b: and so having the baseline be the mfcc 's means that people could choose to pour their ener their effort into trying to do a really good vad phd c: i do n't s but they seem like two separate issues . professor b: or tryi they 're sort of separate . phd c: right ? i mean professor b: unfortunately there 's coupling between them , which is part of what i think stephane is getting to , is that you can choose your features in such a way as to improve the vad . phd a: yeah . professor b: and you also can choose your features in such a way as to prove improve recognition . they may not be the same thing . phd c: but it seems like you should do both . professor b: you should do both phd c: right ? professor b: and and i i think that this still makes i still think this makes sense as a baseline . it 's just saying , as a baseline , we know phd a: mmm . professor b: you know , we had the mfcc 's before , lots of people have done voice activity detectors , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: you might as well pick some voice activity detector and make that the baseline , just like you picked some version of htk and made that the baseline . phd a: yeah . right . professor b: and then let 's try and make everything better . um , and if one of the ways you make it better is by having your features be better features for the vad then that 's so be it . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but , uh , uh , uh , at least you have a starting point that 's um , cuz i i some of the some of the people did n't have a vad at all , i guess . right ? and and phd a: yeah . professor b: then they they looked pretty bad and and in fact what they were doing was n't so bad at all . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: but , um . phd c: yeah . it seems like you should try to make your baseline as good as possible . and if it turns out that you ca n't improve on that , well , i mean , then , you know , nobody wins and you just use mfcc . right ? professor b: yeah . i mean , it seems like , uh , it should include sort of the current state of the art that you want are trying to improve , and mfcc 's , you know , or plp or something it seems like reasonable baseline for the features , and anybody doing this task , uh , is gon na have some sort of voice activity detection at some level , in some way . they might use the whole recognizer to do it but rather than a separate thing , but but they 'll have it on some level . so , um . phd c: it seems like whatever they choose they should n't , you know , purposefully brain - damage a part of the system to make a worse baseline , or professor b: well , i think people just had phd c: you know ? professor b: it was n't that they purposely brain - damaged it . i think people had n't really thought through about the , uh the vad issue . phd c: mmm . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and and then when the the the proposals actually came in and half of them had v a ds and half of them did n't , and the half that did did well and the half that did n't did poorly . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so it 's phd a: mm - hmm . um . professor b: uh . phd a: yeah . so we 'll see what happen with this . and yeah . so what happened since , um , last week is well , from ogi , these experiments on putting vad on the baseline . and these experiments also are using , uh , some kind of noise compensation , so spectral subtraction , and putting on - line normalization , um , just after this . so i think spectral subtraction , lda filtering , and on - line normalization , so which is similar to the pro proposal - one , but with spectral subtraction in addition , and it seems that on - line normalization does n't help further when you have spectral subtraction . phd c: is this related to the issue that you brought up a couple of meetings ago with the the musical tones phd a: i phd c: and ? phd a: i have no idea , because the issue i brought up was with a very simple spectral subtraction approach , phd c: mmm . phd a: and the one that they use at ogi is one from from the proposed the the the aurora prop uh , proposals , which might be much better . so , yeah . i asked sunil for more information about that , but , uh , i do n't know yet . um . and what 's happened here is that we so we have this kind of new , um , reference system which use a nice a a clean downsampling - upsampling , which use a new filter that 's much shorter and which also cuts the frequency below sixty - four hertz , professor b: right . phd a: which was not done on our first proposal . professor b: when you say `` we have that `` , does sunil have it now , too , phd a: i no . professor b: or ? phd a: no . professor b: ok . phd a: because we 're still testing . so we have the result for , uh , just the features professor b: ok . phd a: and we are currently testing with putting the neural network in the klt . um , it seems to improve on the well - matched case , um , but it 's a little bit worse on the mismatch and highly - mismatched i mean when we put the neural network . and with the current weighting i think it 's sh it will be better because the well - matched case is better . mmm . professor b: but how much worse since the weighting might change how how much worse is it on the other conditions , when you say it 's a little worse ? phd a: it 's like , uh , fff , fff { comment } um , { comment } ten percent relative . yeah . professor b: ok . um . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but it has the , uh the latencies are much shorter . that 's phd a: uh - y w when i say it 's worse , it 's not it 's when i i uh , compare proposal - two to proposal - one , so , r uh , y putting neural network compared to n not having any neural network . i mean , this new system is is is better , professor b: uh - huh . phd a: because it has um , this sixty - four hertz cut - off , uh , clean downsampling , and , um what else ? uh , yeah , a good vad . we put the good vad . so . yeah , i do n't know . i i j uh , uh pr professor b: but the latencies but you 've got the latency shorter now . phd a: latency is short is yeah . professor b: yeah . phd f: is n't it phd a: and so professor b: so it 's better than the system that we had before . phd a: yeah . mainly because of the sixty - four hertz and the good vad . professor b: ok . phd a: and then i took this system and , mmm , w uh , i p we put the old filters also . so we have this good system , with good vad , with the short filter and with the long filter , and , um , with the short filter it 's not worse . so well , is it professor b: ok . phd a: it 's in professor b: so that 's that 's all fine . phd a: yes . uh professor b: but what you 're saying is that when you do these so let me try to understand . when when you do these same improvements to proposal - one , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: that , uh , on the i things are somewhat better , uh , in proposal - two for the well - matched case and somewhat worse for the other two cases . phd a: yeah . professor b: so does , uh when you say , uh so the th now that these other things are in there , is it the case maybe that the additions of proposal - two over proposal - one are less im important ? phd a: yeah . probably , yeah . professor b: i get it . phd a: um so , yeah . uh . yeah , but it 's a good thing anyway to have shorter delay . then we tried , um , to do something like proposal - two but having , um , e using also msg features . so there is this klt part , which use just the standard features , professor b: mm - hmm . right . phd a: and then two neura two neural networks . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: mmm , and it does n't seem to help . um , however , we just have one result , which is the italian mismatch , so . uh . we have to wait for that to fill the whole table , but professor b: ok . there was a start of some effort on something related to voicing or something . is that ? phd a: yeah . um , yeah . so basically we try to , uh , find good features that could be used for voicing detection , uh , but it 's still , uh on the , um t phd f: oh , well , i have the picture . phd a: we w basically we are still playing with matlab to to look at at what happened , phd c: what sorts of phd f: yeah . phd a: and phd c: what sorts of features are you looking at ? phd f: we have some phd a: so we would be looking at , um , the variance of the spectrum of the excitation , phd f: uh , um , this , this , and this . phd a: something like this , which is should be high for voiced sounds . uh , we phd c: wait a minute . i what does that mean ? the variance of the spectrum of excitation . phd a: yeah . so the so basically the spectrum of the excitation for a purely periodic sig signal shou sh professor b: ok . yeah , w what yo what you 're calling the excitation , as i recall , is you 're subtracting the the , um the mel mel mel filter , uh , spectrum from the fft spectrum . phd a: e that 's right . yeah . so professor b: right . phd a: yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: so we have the mel f filter bank , we have the fft , so we just professor b: so it 's it 's not really an excitation , phd a: no . professor b: but it 's something that hopefully tells you something about the excitation . phd a: yeah , that 's right . professor b: yeah , yeah . phd a: um yeah . phd f: we have here some histogram , phd a: e yeah , phd f: but they have a lot of overlap . phd a: but it 's it 's still yeah . so , well , for unvoiced portion we have something tha that has a mean around o point three , and for voiced portion the mean is o point fifty - nine . but the variance seem quite high . phd c: how do you know ? phd a: so mmm . phd c: how did you get your voiced and unvoiced truth data ? phd a: we used , uh , timit and we used canonical mappings between the phones phd f: yeah . we , uh , use timit on this , phd a: and phd f: for phd a: th yeah . phd f: but if we look at it in one sentence , it apparently it 's good , i think . phd a: yeah , but yeah . uh , so it 's noisy timit . that 's right . yeah . grad e: it 's noisy timit . phd f: yeah . phd a: it seems quite robust to noise , so when we take we draw its parameters across time for a clean sentence and then nois the same noisy sentence , it 's very close . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . so there are there is this . there could be also the , um something like the maximum of the auto - correlation function or which phd c: is this a a s a trained system ? or is it a system where you just pick some thresholds ? ho - how does it work ? phd a: right now we just are trying to find some features . and , phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: uh yeah . hopefully , i think what we want to have is to put these features in s some kind of , um well , to to obtain a statistical model on these features and to or just to use a neural network and hopefully these features w would help phd c: because it seems like what you said about the mean of the the voiced and the unvoiced { comment } that seemed pretty encouraging . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: well , yeah , except the variance was big . phd c: right ? phd a: yeah . except the variance is quite high . professor b: right ? phd c: well , y phd a: yeah . phd c: well , y i i do n't know that i would trust that so much because you 're doing these canonical mappings from timit labellings . phd a: uh - huh . phd c: right ? so , really that 's sort of a cartoon picture about what 's voiced and unvoiced . so that could be giving you a lot of variance . phd a: yeah . phd c: i mean , i it it may be that that you 're finding something good and that the variance is sort of artificial because of how you 're getting your truth . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . but another way of looking at it might be that i mean , what w we we are coming up with feature sets after all . so another way of looking at it is that um , the mel cepstru mel spectrum , mel cepstrum , any of these variants , um , give you the smooth spectrum . it 's the spectral envelope . by going back to the fft , you 're getting something that is more like the raw data . so the question is , what characterization and you 're playing around with this another way of looking at it is what characterization of the difference between the raw data and this smooth version is something that you 're missing that could help ? so , i mean , looking at different statistical measures of that difference , coming up with some things and just trying them out and seeing if you add them onto the feature vector does that make things better or worse in noise , where you 're really just i i the way i 'm looking at it is not so much you 're trying to f find the best the world 's best voiced - unvoiced , uh , uh , classifier , phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: mmm . professor b: but it 's more that , you know , uh , uh , try some different statistical characterizations of that difference back to the raw data phd c: right . professor b: and and m maybe there 's something there that the system can use . phd c: right . phd a: yeah . yeah , but ther more obvious is that yeah . the the more obvious is that that well , using the th the fft , um , you just it gives you just information about if it 's voiced or not voiced , ma mainly , i mean . but so , professor b: yeah . phd a: this is why we we started to look by having sort of voiced phonemes professor b: well , that 's the rea w w what i 'm arguing is that 's yeah . i mean , uh , what i 'm arguing is that that that 's givi you gives you your intuition . phd a: and mm - hmm . professor b: but in in reality , it 's you know , there 's all of this this overlap and so forth , grad e: oh , sorry . professor b: and but what i 'm saying is that may be ok , because what you 're really getting is not actually voiced versus unvoiced , both for the fac the reason of the overlap and and then , uh , th you know , structural reasons , uh , uh , like the one that chuck said , that that in fact , well , the data itself is that you 're working with is not perfect . phd a: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: so , what i 'm saying is maybe that 's not a killer because you 're just getting some characterization , one that 's driven by your intuition about voiced - unvoiced certainly , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but it 's just some characterization of something back in the in the in the almost raw data , rather than the smooth version . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and your intuition is driving you towards particular kinds of , uh , statistical characterizations of , um , what 's missing from the spectral envelope . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: um , obviously you have something about the excitation , um , and what is it about the excitation , and , you know and you 're not getting the excitation anyway , you know . so so i i would almost take a uh , especially if if these trainings and so forth are faster , i would almost just take a uh , a scattershot at a few different ways of look of characterizing that difference and , uh , you could have one of them but and and see , you know , which of them helps . phd a: mm - hmm . ok . phd c: so i is the idea that you 're going to take whatever features you develop and and just add them onto the future vector ? or , what 's the use of the the voiced - unvoiced detector ? phd a: uh , i guess we do n't know exactly yet . but , um yeah . th phd c: it 's not part of a vad system that you 're doing ? phd f: no . phd a: uh , no . no . phd c: oh , ok . phd a: no , the idea was , i guess , to to use them as as features . phd c: features . i see . phd a: uh yeah , it could be , uh it could be a neural network that does voiced and unvoiced detection , phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: but it could be in the also the big neural network that does phoneme classification . phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: mmm . yeah . professor b: but each one of the mixture components i mean , you have , uh , uh , variance only , so it 's kind of like you 're just multiplying together these , um , probabilities from the individual features within each mixture . so it 's so , uh , it seems l you know phd c: i think it 's a neat thing . uh , it seems like a good idea . professor b: yeah . um . yeah . i mean , i know that , um , people doing some robustness things a ways back were were just doing just being gross and just throwing in the fft and actually it was n't was n't was n't so bad . uh , so it would s and and you know that i it 's got ta hurt you a little bit to not have a a spectral , uh a s a smooth spectral envelope , so there must be something else that you get in return for that phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: that , uh uh so . phd c: so how does uh , maybe i 'm going in too much detail , but how exactly do you make the difference between the fft and the smoothed spectral envelope ? wha - wh i i uh , how is that , uh ? phd a: um , we just how did we do it up again ? phd f: uh , we distend the we have the twenty - three coefficient af after the mel f filter , phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: and we extend these coefficient between the all the frequency range . phd c: mm - hmm . phd f: and i the interpolation i between the point is give for the triang triangular filter , the value of the triangular filter and of this way we obtained this mode this model speech . phd a: s professor b: so you essentially take the values that th that you get from the triangular filter and extend them to sor sort of like a rectangle , that 's at that m value . phd f: yeah . phd a: yeah . i think we have linear interpolation . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: so we have we have one point for one energy for each filter bank , phd f: mmm yeah , it 's linear . phd c: mmm . professor b: oh . phd a: which is the energy that 's centered on on on the triangle phd f: yeah . at the n at the center of the filter phd c: so you you end up with a vector that 's the same length as the fft vector ? phd a: yeah . that 's right . phd f: yeah . phd c: and then you just , uh , compute differences phd f: yeah . i have here one example if you if you want see something like that . phd a: then we compute the difference . phd c: and , phd a: yeah . uh - huh . professor b: ok . phd c: uh , sum the differences ? phd a: so . and i think the variance is computed only from , like , two hundred hertz to one to fifteen hundred . phd c: oh ! ok . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: two thou two { comment } fifteen hundred ? professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: because phd f: no . professor b: right . phd f: two hundred and fifty thousand . phd a: fifteen hundred . because yeah . phd f: yeah . two thousand and fifteen hundred . phd a: above , um it seems that well , some voiced sound can have also , like , a noisy part on high frequencies , and but professor b: yeah . phd a: well , it 's just professor b: no , it 's makes sense to look at low frequencies . phd c: so this is uh , basically this is comparing an original version of the signal to a smoothed version of the same signal ? phd f: yeah . professor b: right . so i so i i this is i mean , i you could argue about whether it should be linear interpolation or or or or zeroeth order , but but phd c: uh - huh . professor b: at any rate something like this is what you 're feeding your recognizer , typically . phd c: like which of the ? professor b: no . uh , so the mel cepstrum is the is the is the cepstrum of this this , uh , spectrum or log spectrum , phd a: so this is yeah . phd c: yeah . right , right . professor b: whatever it you - you 're subtracting in in in power domain or log domain ? phd a: in log domain . yeah . phd f: log domain . professor b: ok . so it 's sort of like division , when you do the yeah , the spectra . phd f: yeah . phd a: uh , yeah . phd c: it 's the ratio . professor b: um . yeah . but , anyway , um and that 's phd c: so what 's th uh , what 's the intuition behind this kind of a thing ? i i do n't know really know the signal - processing well enough to understand what what is that doing . phd a: so . yeah . what happen if what we have have what we would like to have is some spectrum of the excitation signal , professor b: yeah . i guess that makes sense . yeah . phd a: which is for voiced sound ideally a a pulse train phd c: uh - huh . phd a: and for unvoiced it 's something that 's more flat . phd c: uh - huh . right . phd a: and the way to do this is that well , we have the we have the fft because it 's computed in in the in the system , and we have the mel filter banks , phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: and so if we if we , like , remove the mel filter bank from the fft , we have something that 's close to the excitation signal . grad e: oh . phd a: it 's something that 's like a a a train of p a pulse train for voiced sound phd c: ok . professor b: yeah . phd c: oh ! ok . yeah . phd a: and that 's that should be flat for professor b: yeah . phd c: i see . so do you have a picture that sh ? phd a: so - it 's y phd c: is this for a voiced segment , phd a: yeah . phd c: this picture ? what does it look like for unvoiced ? phd f: yeah . phd a: you have several some unvoiced ? phd f: the dif no . unvoiced , i do n't have phd a: oh . phd f: for unvoiced . professor b: yeah . so , you know , all phd f: i 'm sorry . phd a: but yeah . professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah . this is the between phd a: this is another voiced example . yeah . phd f: no . but it 's this , phd a: oh , yeah . this is phd f: but between the frequency that we are considered for the excitation phd a: right . mm - hmm . phd f: for the difference and this is the difference . phd a: yeah . phd c: this is the difference . ok . phd a: so , of course , it 's around zero , professor b: yeah . grad e: sure looks phd a: but grad e: hmm . phd a: well , no . phd c: hmm . phd a: it is phd f: yeah . because we begin , uh , in fifteen point the fifteen point . phd c: so , does does the periodicity of this signal say something about the the phd f: fifteen p phd a: so it 's yeah . professor b: pitch . phd a: it 's the pitch . phd c: the pitch ? phd a: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd c: ok . professor b: that 's like fundamental frequency . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: so , i mean , i t t phd c: ok . i see . professor b: i mean , to first order what you 'd what you 're doing i mean , ignore all the details and all the ways which is that these are complete lies . uh , the the you know , what you 're doing in feature extraction for speech recognition is you have , uh , in your head a a a a simplified production model for speech , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: in which you have a periodic or aperiodic source that 's driving some filters . phd c: mm - hmm . phd f: yeah . this is the the auto - correlation the r - zero energy . phd a: do you have the mean do you have the mean for the auto - correlation ? professor b: uh , first order for speech recognition , you say `` i do n't care about the source `` . phd f: for yeah . phd a: well , i mean for the the energy . phd f: i have the mean . professor b: right ? phd c: right . professor b: and so you just want to find out what the filters are . phd c: right . phd f: yeah . professor b: the filters roughly act like a , um a , uh a an overall resonant you know , f some resonances and so forth that th that 's processing excitation . phd f: here . phd a: they should be more close . phd f: ah , no . this is this ? more close . is this ? and this . phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: so they are this is there is less difference . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so if you look at the spectral envelope , just the very smooth properties of it , you get something closer to that . phd a: this is less it 's less robust . phd f: less robust . yeah . phd a: oh , yeah . professor b: and the notion is if you have the full spectrum , with all the little nitty - gritty details , that that has the effect of both , phd c: yeah . professor b: and it would be a multiplication in in frequency domain phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so that would be like an addition in log power spectrum domain . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: and so this is saying , well , if you really do have that sort of vocal tract envelope , and you subtract that off , what you get is the excitation . and i call that lies because you do n't really have that , you just have some kind of signal - processing trickery to get something that 's kind of smooth . it 's not really what 's happening in the vocal tract phd c: yeah . professor b: so you 're not really getting the vocal excitation . phd c: right . professor b: that 's why i was going to the why i was referring to it in a more a more , uh , uh , conservative way , when i was saying `` well , it 's yeah , it 's the excitation `` . but it 's not really the excitation . it 's whatever it is that 's different between phd c: oh . this moved in the professor b: so so , stand standing back from that , you sort of say there 's this very detailed representation . phd c: yeah . professor b: you go to a smooth representation . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: you go to a smooth representation cuz this typically generalizes better . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: um , but whenever you smooth you lose something , so the question is have you lost something you can you use ? phd c: right . professor b: um , probably you would n't want to go to the extreme of just ta saying `` ok , our feature set will be the fft `` , cuz we really think we do gain something in robustness from going to something smoother , but maybe there 's something that we missed . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so what is it ? phd c: yeah . professor b: and then you go back to the intuition that , well , you do n't really get the excitation , but you get something related to it . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: and it and as you can see from those pictures , you do get something that shows some periodicity , uh , in frequency , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: you know , and and and also in time . phd c: hmm . professor b: so phd c: that 's that 's really neat . professor b: so , phd c: so you do n't have one for unvoiced picture ? phd f: uh , not here . phd c: oh . phd f: no , i have s phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd f: but not here . professor b: but presumably you 'll see something that wo n't have this kind of , uh , uh , uh , regularity in frequency , uh , in the phd a: but yeah . well . phd f: not here . phd c: i would li i would like to see those pictures . phd f: well , so . professor b: yeah . phd f: i ca n't see you { comment } now . professor b: yeah . phd c: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: i do n't have . phd c: and so you said this is pretty doing this kind of thing is pretty robust to noise ? phd a: it seems , yeah . um , phd c: huh . phd f: pfft . oops . the mean is different with it , because the the histogram for the the classifica phd a: no , no , no . but th the kind of robustness to noise phd f: oh ! phd a: so if if you take this frame , uh , from the noisy utterance and the same frame from the clean utterance phd f: hmm . phd c: you end up with a similar difference phd a: y y y yeah . we end up with phd c: over here ? phd a: yeah . phd c: ok . cool ! phd f: i have here the same frame for the clean speech phd c: oh , that 's clean . phd f: the same cle phd c: oh , ok phd f: but they are a difference . phd a: yeah , that 's phd f: because here the fft is only with two hundred fifty - six point phd c: oh . phd f: and this is with five hundred twelve . phd a: yeah . this is kind of inter interesting also phd c: ok . phd a: because if we use the standard , uh , frame length of of , like , twenty - five milliseconds , um , what happens is that for low - pitched voiced , because of the frame length , y you do n't really have you do n't clearly see this periodic structure , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: because of the first lobe of of each each of the harmonics . phd c: so this one inclu is a longer ah . phd a: so , this is like yeah , fifty milliseconds or something like that . phd f: fifty millis yeah . phd a: yeah , but it 's the same frame and phd c: oh , it 's that time - frequency trade - off thing . phd a: yeah . phd c: right ? i see . yeah . phd a: so , yeah . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: oh . oh , so this i is this the difference here , for that ? phd f: no . this is the signal . this is the signal . phd a: i see that . oh , yeah . phd f: the frame . phd c: oh , that 's the f the original . phd a: yeah . phd f: this is the fra the original frame . phd a: so with a short frame basically you have only two periods phd c: yeah . phd a: and it 's not not enough to to have this kind of neat things . phd c: mm - hmm . phd f: mm - hmm . phd c: yeah . phd a: but phd f: and here no , well . phd a: yeah . so probably we 'll have to use , like , long f long frames . mm - hmm . phd c: mm - hmm . grad e: hmm . phd c: oh . professor b: mmm . phd c: that 's interesting . professor b: yeah , maybe . well , i mean it looks better , but , i mean , the thing is if if , uh if you 're actually asking you know , if you actually j uh , need to do place along an fft , it may be it may be pushing things . phd a: yeah . professor b: and and , uh phd c: would you would you wan na do this kind of , uh , difference thing after you do spectral subtraction ? phd a: uh , maybe . phd f: no . maybe we can do that . phd a: mmm . professor b: hmm . the spectral subtraction is being done at what level ? is it being done at the level of fft bins or at the level of , uh , mel spectrum or something ? phd a: um , i guess it depends . professor b: i mean , how are they doing it ? phd a: how they 're doing it ? yeah . um , i guess ericsson is on the , um , filter bank , phd f: fft . filter bank , phd a: no ? it 's on the filter bank , phd f: yeah . phd a: so . so , yeah , probably i i it yeah . professor b: so in that case , it might not make much difference at all . phd c: seems like you 'd wan na do it on the fft bins . professor b: maybe . i mean , certainly it 'd be better . phd c: i i mean , if you were gon na uh , for for this purpose , that is . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . ok . phd a: mmm . professor b: what else ? phd a: uh . yeah , that 's all . so we 'll perhaps try to convince ogi people to use the new the new filters and yeah . professor b: ok . uh , has has anything happened yet on this business of having some sort of standard , uh , source , phd a: uh , not yet professor b: or ? phd a: but i wi i will call them and professor b: ok . phd a: now they are i think they have more time because they have this well , eurospeech deadline is over phd c: when is the next , um , aurora deadline ? phd a: and it 's , um , in june . yeah . phd c: june . professor b: early june , late june , middle june ? phd a: i do n't know w professor b: hmm . grad e: hmm . professor b: ok . um , and he 's been doing all the talking but but these he 's he 's , uh phd f: yeah . professor b: this is this by the way a bad thing . we 're trying to get , um , m more female voices in this record as well . so . make sur make sure carmen talks as well . uh , but has he pretty much been talking about what you 're doing also , and ? phd f: oh , i i am doing this . professor b: yes . phd f: yeah , yeah . i do n't know . i 'm sorry , but i think that for the recognizer for the meeting recorder that it 's better that i do n't speak . professor b: yeah , well . phd f: because professor b: you know , uh , we 'll get we 'll get to , uh , spanish voices sometime , and we do we want to recognize , uh , you too . phd f: after the after , uh , the result for the ti - digits on the meeting record there will be foreigns people . phd a: yeah , but professor b: oh , no . phd c: y professor b: we like we we 're we 're w we are we 're in the , uh , bourlard - hermansky - morgan , uh , frame of mind . yeah , we like high error rates . it 's phd a: yeah . professor b: that way there 's lots of work to do . so it 's uh , anything to talk about ? grad d: n um , not not not much is new . so when i talked about what i 'm planning to do last time , i said i was , um , going to use avendano 's method of , um , using a transformation , um , to map from long analysis frames which are used for removing reverberation to short analysis frames for feature calculation . he has a trick for doing that involving viewing the dft as a matrix . um , but , uh , um , i decided not to do that after all because i i realized to use it i 'd need to have these short analysis frames get plugged directly into the feature computation somehow professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: and right now i think our feature computation is set to up to , um , take , um , audio as input , in general . so i decided that i i 'll do the reverberation removal on the long analysis windows and then just re - synthesize audio and then send that . professor b: this is in order to use the sri system or something . right ? grad d: um , or or even if i 'm using our system , i was thinking it might be easier to just re - synthesize the audio , professor b: yeah ? grad d: because then i could just feacalc as is and i would n't have to change the code . professor b: oh , ok . yeah . i mean , it 's um , certainly in a short short - term this just sounds easier . grad d: uh - huh . professor b: yeah . i mean , longer - term if it 's if it turns out to be useful , one one might want to do something else , grad d: right . that 's true . professor b: but uh , uh , i mean , in in other words , you you may be putting other kinds of errors in from the re - synthesis process . grad d: but e u from the re - synthesis ? um , professor b: yeah . grad d: o - ok . i do n't know anything about re - synthesis . uh , how likely do you think that is ? professor b: uh , it depends what you what you do . i mean , it 's it 's it 's , uh , um do n't know . but anyway it sounds like a reasonable way to go for a for an initial thing , and we can look at at exactly what you end up doing and and then figure out if there 's some something that could be be hurt by the end part of the process . grad d: ok . professor b: ok . so that 's that was it , huh ? grad d: that yeah , e that 's it , that 's it . professor b: ok . ok . grad d: uh - huh . professor b: um , anything to add ? grad e: um . well , i 've been continuing reading . i went off on a little tangent this past week , um , looking at , uh , uh , modulation s spectrum stuff , um , and and learning a bit about what what , um what it is , and , uh , the importance of it in speech recognition . and i found some some , uh , neat papers , um , historical papers from , um , kanedera , hermansky , and arai . professor b: yeah . grad e: and they they did a lot of experiments where th where , um , they take speech and , um , e they modify the , uh they they they measure the relative importance of having different , um , portions of the modulation spectrum intact . professor b: yeah . grad e: and they find that the the spectrum between one and sixteen hertz in the modulation is , uh is im important for speech recognition . professor b: sure . i mean , this sort of goes back to earlier stuff by drullman . grad e: um . professor b: and and , uh , the the msg features were sort of built up with this notion grad e: yeah . right . professor b: but , i guess , i thought you had brought this up in the context of , um , targets somehow . grad e: right . professor b: but i m grad e: um professor b: i it 's not i mean , they 're sort of not in the same kind of category as , say , a phonetic target or a syllabic target grad e: mmm . mm - hmm . professor b: or a grad e: um , i was thinking more like using them as as the inputs to to the detectors . professor b: or a feature or something . oh , i see . well , that 's sort of what msg does . grad e: yeah . yeah . professor b: right ? so it 's grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: but but , uh grad e: s professor b: yeah . grad e: yeah . professor b: anyway , we 'll talk more about it later . grad e: ok . professor b: yeah . grad e: we can talk more about it later . professor b: yeah . yeah . grad e: yeah . professor b: so maybe , le phd c: should we do digits ? professor b: let 's do digits . let you you start . grad d: oh , ok . grad e: l fifty . phd a: right .

the professor thought that the team should go back and look at the difference between the smooth and the raw versions . he thought the team was too stuck on intuitions based on only the smooth version . he agreed that not having a smooth version could hurt the model a bit , but the team could potentially learn something that helps the model more .

did phd a and phd c agree about the variance ? </s> phd a: it 's not very significant . professor b: uh , channel one . yes . grad d: channel three . professor b: ok . phd f: mm - hmm . grad d: channel three . phd a: ta grad d: channel three . alright . professor b: ok , did you solve speech recognition last week ? grad e: almost . professor b: alright ! let 's do image processing . phd c: yes , again . phd a: great . phd c: we did it again , morgan . professor b: alright ! grad e: doo - doop , doo - doo . phd a: what 's wrong with ? professor b: ok . it 's april fifth . actually , hynek should be getting back in town shortly if he is n't already . phd c: is he gon na come here ? professor b: uh . well , we 'll drag him here . i know where he is . phd c: so when you said `` in town `` , you mean oregon . professor b: u u u u uh , i meant , you know , this end of the world , yeah , is really what i meant , phd c: oh . grad e: doo , doo - doo . professor b: uh , cuz he 's been in europe . grad e: doo - doo . professor b: so . phd c: i have something just fairly brief to report on . professor b: mmm . phd c: um , i did some experim uh , uh , just a few more experiments before i had to , uh , go away for the w well , that week . professor b: great ! phd c: was it last week or whenever ? um , so what i was started playing with was the th again , this is the htk back - end . and , um , i was curious because the way that they train up the models , they go through about four sort of rounds of of training . and in the first round they do uh , i think it 's three iterations , and for the last three rounds e e they do seven iterations of re - estimation in each of those three . and so , you know , that 's part of what takes so long to train the the the back - end for this . professor b: i 'm sorry , i did n't quite get that . there 's there 's four and there 's seven and i i 'm sorry . phd c: yeah . uh , maybe i should write it on the board . so , there 's four rounds of training . um , i g i g i guess you could say iterations . the first one is three , then seven , seven , and seven . and what these numbers refer to is the number of times that the , uh , hmm re - estimation is run . it 's this program called h e professor b: but in htk , what 's the difference between , uh , a an inner loop and an outer loop in these iterations ? phd c: ok . so what happens is , um , at each one of these points , you increase the number of gaussians in the model . professor b: yeah . oh , right ! this was the mix up stuff . phd c: yeah . the mix up . professor b: that 's right . phd c: right . professor b: i remember now . phd c: and so , in the final one here , you end up with , uh for all of the the digit words , you end up with , uh , three mixtures per state , professor b: yeah . phd c: eh , in the final thing . so i had done some experiments where i was i i want to play with the number of mixtures . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: but , um , uh , i wanted to first test to see if we actually need to do this many iterations early on . grad e: uh , one , two , professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: and so , um , i i ran a couple of experiments where i reduced that to l to be three , two , two , uh , five , i think , and i got almost the exact same results . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: and but it runs much much faster . so , um , i i think m it only took something like , uh , three or four hours to do the full training , professor b: as opposed to ? phd f: good . phd c: as opposed to wh what , sixteen hours or something like that ? i mean , it takes you have to do an overnight basically , the way it is set up now . phd f: yeah . it depends . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: so , uh , even we do n't do anything else , doing something like this could allow us to turn experiments around a lot faster . professor b: and then when you have your final thing , do a full one , so it 's phd c: and when you have your final thing , we go back to this . phd f: yeah . phd c: so , um , and it 's a real simple change to make . i mean , it 's like one little text file you edit and change those numbers , and you do n't do anything else . phd f: oh , this is a phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: and then you just run . phd f: ok . phd c: so it 's a very simple change to make and it does n't seem to hurt all that much . phd a: so you you run with three , two , two , five ? that 's a phd c: so i uh , i i have to look to see what the exact numbers were . phd a: yeah . phd c: i i thought was , like , three , two , two , five , phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: but i i 'll i 'll double check . it was over a week ago that i did it , phd a: ok . mm - hmm . phd c: so i ca n't remember exactly . grad e: oh . phd c: but , uh professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: um , but it 's so much faster . i it makes a big difference . grad e: hmm . phd c: so we could do a lot more experiments and throw a lot more stuff in there . phd f: yeah . professor b: that 's great . phd c: um . oh , the other thing that i did was , um , i compiled the htk stuff for the linux boxes . so we have this big thing that we got from ibm , which is a five - processor machine . really fast , but it 's running linux . so , you can now run your experiments on that machine and you can run five at a time and it runs , uh , as fast as , you know , uh , five different machines . phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: mm - hmm . phd c: so , um , i 've forgotten now what the name of that machine is but i can i can send email around about it . phd a: yeah . phd c: and so we 've got it now htk 's compiled for both the linux and for , um , the sparcs . um , you have to make you have to make sure that in your dot cshrc , um , it detects whether you 're running on the linux or a a sparc and points to the right executables . uh , and you may not have had that in your dot cshrc before , if you were always just running the sparc . so , um , phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: uh , i can i can tell you exactly what you need to do to get all of that to work . but it 'll it really increases what we can run on . grad e: hmm . cool . phd c: so , together with the fact that we 've got these faster linux boxes and that it takes less time to do these , um , we should be able to crank through a lot more experiments . phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: so . grad e: hmm . phd c: so after i did that , then what i wanted to do { comment } was try increasing the number of mixtures , just to see , um see how how that affects performance . phd a: yeah . phd c: so . professor b: yeah . in fact , you could do something like keep exactly the same procedure and then add a fifth thing onto it phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: that had more . phd c: exactly . professor b: yeah . phd c: right . right . grad e: so at at the middle o where the arrows are showing , that 's you 're adding one more mixture per state , phd c: uh - huh . uh , grad e: or ? phd c: let 's see , uh . it goes from this uh , try to go it backwards this at this point it 's two mixtures per state . so this just adds one . except that , uh , actually for the silence model , it 's six mixtures per state . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: uh , so it goes to two . grad e: ok . phd c: um . and i think what happens here is professor b: might be between , uh , shared , uh shared variances or something , phd c: yeah . i think that 's what it is . professor b: or phd c: uh , yeah . it 's , uh shoot . i i i ca n't remember now what happens at that first one . uh , i have to look it up and see . grad e: oh , ok . phd c: um , there because they start off with , uh , an initial model which is just this global model , and then they split it to the individuals . and so , it may be that that 's what 's happening here . i i i have to look it up and see . i i do n't exactly remember . grad e: ok . professor b: ok . phd c: so . that 's it . professor b: alright . so what else ? phd a: um . yeah . there was a conference call this tuesday . um . i do n't know yet the what happened tuesday , but the points that they were supposed to discuss is still , uh , things like the weights , uh professor b: oh , this is a conference call for , uh , uh , aurora participant sort of thing . grad e: for phd a: yeah . yeah . professor b: i see . phd a: mmm . professor b: do you know who was who was since we were n't in on it , uh , do you know who was in from ogi ? was was was hynek involved or was it sunil phd a: i have no idea . professor b: or ? phd a: mmm , i just professor b: oh , you do n't know . ok . phd a: yeah . professor b: alright . phd a: um , yeah . so the points were the the weights how to weight the different error rates that are obtained from different language and and conditions . um , it 's not clear that they will keep the same kind of weighting . right now it 's a weighting on on improvement . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: some people are arguing that it would be better to have weights on uh well , to to combine error rates before computing improvement . uh , and the fact is that for right now for the english , they have weights they they combine error rates , but for the other languages they combine improvement . so it 's not very consistent . um professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . the , um yeah . and so well , this is a point . and right now actually there is a thing also , uh , that happens with the current weight is that a very non - significant improvement on the well - matched case result in huge differences in in the final number . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: and so , perhaps they will change the weights to phd c: hmm . phd a: yeah . phd c: how should that be done ? i mean , it it seems like there 's a simple way phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: uh , this seems like an obvious mistake or something . professor b: well , i mean , the fact that it 's inconsistent is an obvious mistake . phd c: th - they 're professor b: but the but , um , the other thing phd a: in professor b: i do n't know i have n't thought it through , but one one would think that each it it 's like if you say what 's the what 's the best way to do an average , an arithmetic average or a geometric average ? phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: it depends what you wan na show . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: each each one is gon na have a different characteristic . phd a: yeah . professor b: so phd c: well , it seems like they should do , like , the percentage improvement or something , rather than the absolute improvement . phd a: tha - that 's what they do . professor b: well , they are doing that . phd a: yeah . professor b: no , that is relative . but the question is , do you average the relative improvements or do you average the error rates and take the relative improvement maybe of that ? phd a: yeah . yeah . professor b: and the thing is it 's not just a pure average because there are these weightings . phd c: oh . professor b: it 's a weighted average . um . phd a: yeah . and so when you average the the relative improvement it tends to to give a lot of of , um , importance to the well - matched case because the baseline is already very good and , um , i it 's phd c: why do n't they not look at improvements but just look at your av your scores ? you know , figure out how to combine the scores phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: with a weight or whatever , and then give you a score here 's your score . and then they can do the same thing for the baseline system and here 's its score . and then you can look at phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: well , that 's what he 's seeing as one of the things they could do . phd a: yeah . professor b: it 's just when you when you get all done , i think that they pro i m i i was n't there but i think they started off this process with the notion that you should be significantly better than the previous standard . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: and , um , so they said `` how much is significantly better ? what do you ? `` and and so they said `` well , you know , you should have half the errors , `` or something , `` that you had before `` . phd a: mm - hmm . hmm . phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . professor b: so it 's , uh , but it does seem like phd c: hmm . professor b: i i it does seem like it 's more logical to combine them first and then do the phd a: combine error rates and then professor b: yeah . phd a: yeah . well professor b: yeah . phd a: but there is this this is this still this problem of weights . when when you combine error rate it tends to give more importance to the difficult cases , and some people think that professor b: oh , yeah ? phd a: well , they have different , um , opinions about this . some people think that it 's more important to look at to have ten percent imp relative improvement on well - matched case than to have fifty percent on the m mismatched , and other people think that it 's more important to improve a lot on the mismatch and so , bu phd c: it sounds like they do n't really have a good idea about what the final application is gon na be . phd a: l de fff ! mmm . professor b: well , you know , the the thing is that if you look at the numbers on the on the more difficult cases , um , if you really believe that was gon na be the predominant use , none of this would be good enough . phd a: yeah . mmm . yeah . professor b: nothing anybody 's phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: whereas you sort of with some reasonable error recovery could imagine in the better cases that these these systems working . so , um , i think the hope would be that it would uh , it would work well for the good cases and , uh , it would have reasonable reas soft degradation as you got to worse and worse conditions . um . phd c: yeah . i i guess what i 'm i mean , i i was thinking about it in terms of , if i were building the final product and i was gon na test to see which front - end i 'd i wanted to use , i would try to weight things depending on the exact environment that i was gon na be using the system in . professor b: but but no . phd c: if i professor b: well , no well , no . i mean , it is n't the operating theater . i mean , they don they they do n't they do n't really know , i think . phd c: yeah . professor b: i mean , i th phd c: so if if they do n't know , does n't that suggest the way for them to go ? uh , you assume everything 's equal . i mean , y y i mean , you professor b: well , i mean , i i think one thing to do is to just not rely on a single number to maybe have two or three numbers , phd c: yeah . professor b: you know , phd c: right . professor b: and and and say here 's how much you , uh you improve the , uh the the relatively clean case and here 's or or well - matched case , and here 's how here 's how much you , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: uh phd c: so not professor b: so . phd c: so not try to combine them . professor b: yeah . uh , actually it 's true . phd c: yeah . professor b: uh , i had forgotten this , uh , but , uh , well - matched is not actually clean . what it is is just that , u uh , the training and testing are similar . phd c: the training and testing . phd a: mmm . professor b: so , i guess what you would do in practice is you 'd try to get as many , uh , examples of similar sort of stuff as you could , and then , phd c: yeah . professor b: uh so the argument for that being the the the more important thing , is that you 're gon na try and do that , but you wan na see how badly it deviates from that when when when the , uh it 's a little different . phd c: so professor b: um , phd c: so you should weight those other conditions v very you know , really small . professor b: but no . that 's a that 's a that 's an arg phd c: i mean , that 's more of an information kind of thing . professor b: that 's an ar well , that 's an argument for it , but let me give you the opposite argument . the opposite argument is you 're never really gon na have a good sample of all these different things . phd c: uh - huh . professor b: i mean , are you gon na have w uh , uh , examples with the windows open , half open , full open ? going seventy , sixty , fifty , forty miles an hour ? on what kind of roads ? phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: with what passing you ? with uh , i mean , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: i i i think that you could make the opposite argument that the well - matched case is a fantasy . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: you know , so , grad e: uh - huh . professor b: i think the thing is is that if you look at the well - matched case versus the po you know , the the medium and the and the fo and then the mismatched case , um , we 're seeing really , really big differences in performance . right ? and and y you would n't like that to be the case . you would n't like that as soon as you step outside you know , a lot of the the cases it 's is phd c: well , that 'll teach them to roll their window up . professor b: i mean , in these cases , if you go from the the , uh i mean , i do n't remember the numbers right off , but if you if you go from the well - matched case to the medium , it 's not an enormous difference in the in the the training - testing situation , and and and it 's a really big performance drop . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: you know , so , um yeah , i mean the reference one , for instance this is back old on , uh on italian uh , was like six percent error for the well - matched and eighteen for the medium - matched and sixty for the for highly - mismatched . uh , and , you know , with these other systems we we helped it out quite a bit , but still there 's there 's something like a factor of two or something between well - matched and medium - matched . and so i think that if what you 're if the goal of this is to come up with robust features , it does mean so you could argue , in fact , that the well - matched is something you should n't be looking at at all , that that the goal is to come up with features that will still give you reasonable performance , you know , with again gentle degregra degradation , um , even though the the testing condition is not the same as the training . phd c: hmm . professor b: so , you know , i i could argue strongly that something like the medium mismatch , which is you know not compl pathological but i mean , what was the the medium - mismatch condition again ? phd a: um , it 's yeah . medium mismatch is everything with the far microphone , but trained on , like , low noisy condition , like low speed and or stopped car and tested on high - speed conditions , i think , like on a highway and professor b: right . phd a: so professor b: so it 's still the same same microphone in both cases , phd a: same microphone but yeah . professor b: but , uh , it 's there 's a mismatch between the car conditions . and that 's uh , you could argue that 's a pretty realistic situation phd c: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , i 'd almost argue for weighting that highest . but the way they have it now , it 's i guess it 's it 's they they compute the relative improvement first and then average that with a weighting ? phd a: yeah . professor b: and so then the that that makes the highly - matched the really big thing . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: um , so , u i since they have these three categories , it seems like the reasonable thing to do is to go across the languages and to come up with an improvement for each of those . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: just say `` ok , in the in the highly - matched case this is what happens , in the m the , uh this other m medium if this happens , in the highly - mismatched that happens `` . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , you should see , uh , a gentle degradation through that . phd a: mmm . professor b: um . but i do n't know . phd a: yeah . professor b: i think that that i i i gather that in these meetings it 's it 's really tricky to make anything ac make any { comment } policy change because everybody has has , uh , their own opinion phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and i do n't know . phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd a: uh , so yeah . yeah , but there is probably a a big change that will be made is that the the baseline th they want to have a new baseline , perhaps , which is , um , mfcc but with a voice activity detector . and apparently , uh , some people are pushing to still keep this fifty percent number . so they want to have at least fifty percent improvement on the baseline , but w which would be a much better baseline . professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: and if we look at the result that sunil sent , just putting the vad in the baseline improved , like , more than twenty percent , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: which would mean then then mean that fifty percent on this new baseline is like , well , more than sixty percent improvement on on o e e uh professor b: so nobody would be there , probably . right ? phd a: right now , nobody would be there , but yeah . professor b: good . work to do . phd a: uh - huh . professor b: so whose vad is is is this a ? phd a: uh , they did n't decide yet . i guess i this was one point of the conference call also , but mmm , so i do n't know . um , but yeah . grad e: oh . professor b: oh , i i think th that would be good . i mean , it 's not that the design of the vad is n't important , but it 's just that it it it does seem to be i uh , a lot of work to do a good job on on that and as well as being a lot of work to do a good job on the feature design , phd a: yeah . professor b: so phd a: yeah . professor b: if we can cut down on that maybe we can make some progress . phd a: m yeah . grad e: hmm . phd a: but i guess perhaps i do n't know w yeah . uh , yeah . per - e s s someone told that perhaps it 's not fair to do that because the , um to make a good vad you do n't have enough to with the the features that are the baseline features . so mmm , you need more features . so you really need to put more more in the in in the front - end . professor b: yeah . phd a: so i professor b: um , phd a: s professor b: sure . but i bu phd c: wait a minute . i i 'm confused . phd a: yeah . phd c: wha - what do you mean ? phd a: yeah , if i professor b: so y so you m s yeah , but well , let 's say for ins see , mfcc for instance does n't have anything in it , uh , related to the pitch . so just just for example . so suppose you 've that what you really wan na do is put a good pitch detector on there and if it gets an unambiguous phd c: oh , oh . i see . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: if it gets an unambiguous result then you 're definitely in a in a in a voice in a , uh , s region with speech . uh . phd c: so there 's this assumption that the v the voice activity detector can only use the mfcc ? phd a: that 's not clear , but this e professor b: well , for the baseline . phd c: yeah . professor b: so so if you use other features then y but it 's just a question of what is your baseline . right ? what is it that you 're supposed to do better than ? phd c: i g yeah . professor b: and so having the baseline be the mfcc 's means that people could choose to pour their ener their effort into trying to do a really good vad phd c: i do n't s but they seem like two separate issues . professor b: or tryi they 're sort of separate . phd c: right ? i mean professor b: unfortunately there 's coupling between them , which is part of what i think stephane is getting to , is that you can choose your features in such a way as to improve the vad . phd a: yeah . professor b: and you also can choose your features in such a way as to prove improve recognition . they may not be the same thing . phd c: but it seems like you should do both . professor b: you should do both phd c: right ? professor b: and and i i think that this still makes i still think this makes sense as a baseline . it 's just saying , as a baseline , we know phd a: mmm . professor b: you know , we had the mfcc 's before , lots of people have done voice activity detectors , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: you might as well pick some voice activity detector and make that the baseline , just like you picked some version of htk and made that the baseline . phd a: yeah . right . professor b: and then let 's try and make everything better . um , and if one of the ways you make it better is by having your features be better features for the vad then that 's so be it . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but , uh , uh , uh , at least you have a starting point that 's um , cuz i i some of the some of the people did n't have a vad at all , i guess . right ? and and phd a: yeah . professor b: then they they looked pretty bad and and in fact what they were doing was n't so bad at all . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: but , um . phd c: yeah . it seems like you should try to make your baseline as good as possible . and if it turns out that you ca n't improve on that , well , i mean , then , you know , nobody wins and you just use mfcc . right ? professor b: yeah . i mean , it seems like , uh , it should include sort of the current state of the art that you want are trying to improve , and mfcc 's , you know , or plp or something it seems like reasonable baseline for the features , and anybody doing this task , uh , is gon na have some sort of voice activity detection at some level , in some way . they might use the whole recognizer to do it but rather than a separate thing , but but they 'll have it on some level . so , um . phd c: it seems like whatever they choose they should n't , you know , purposefully brain - damage a part of the system to make a worse baseline , or professor b: well , i think people just had phd c: you know ? professor b: it was n't that they purposely brain - damaged it . i think people had n't really thought through about the , uh the vad issue . phd c: mmm . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and and then when the the the proposals actually came in and half of them had v a ds and half of them did n't , and the half that did did well and the half that did n't did poorly . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so it 's phd a: mm - hmm . um . professor b: uh . phd a: yeah . so we 'll see what happen with this . and yeah . so what happened since , um , last week is well , from ogi , these experiments on putting vad on the baseline . and these experiments also are using , uh , some kind of noise compensation , so spectral subtraction , and putting on - line normalization , um , just after this . so i think spectral subtraction , lda filtering , and on - line normalization , so which is similar to the pro proposal - one , but with spectral subtraction in addition , and it seems that on - line normalization does n't help further when you have spectral subtraction . phd c: is this related to the issue that you brought up a couple of meetings ago with the the musical tones phd a: i phd c: and ? phd a: i have no idea , because the issue i brought up was with a very simple spectral subtraction approach , phd c: mmm . phd a: and the one that they use at ogi is one from from the proposed the the the aurora prop uh , proposals , which might be much better . so , yeah . i asked sunil for more information about that , but , uh , i do n't know yet . um . and what 's happened here is that we so we have this kind of new , um , reference system which use a nice a a clean downsampling - upsampling , which use a new filter that 's much shorter and which also cuts the frequency below sixty - four hertz , professor b: right . phd a: which was not done on our first proposal . professor b: when you say `` we have that `` , does sunil have it now , too , phd a: i no . professor b: or ? phd a: no . professor b: ok . phd a: because we 're still testing . so we have the result for , uh , just the features professor b: ok . phd a: and we are currently testing with putting the neural network in the klt . um , it seems to improve on the well - matched case , um , but it 's a little bit worse on the mismatch and highly - mismatched i mean when we put the neural network . and with the current weighting i think it 's sh it will be better because the well - matched case is better . mmm . professor b: but how much worse since the weighting might change how how much worse is it on the other conditions , when you say it 's a little worse ? phd a: it 's like , uh , fff , fff { comment } um , { comment } ten percent relative . yeah . professor b: ok . um . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but it has the , uh the latencies are much shorter . that 's phd a: uh - y w when i say it 's worse , it 's not it 's when i i uh , compare proposal - two to proposal - one , so , r uh , y putting neural network compared to n not having any neural network . i mean , this new system is is is better , professor b: uh - huh . phd a: because it has um , this sixty - four hertz cut - off , uh , clean downsampling , and , um what else ? uh , yeah , a good vad . we put the good vad . so . yeah , i do n't know . i i j uh , uh pr professor b: but the latencies but you 've got the latency shorter now . phd a: latency is short is yeah . professor b: yeah . phd f: is n't it phd a: and so professor b: so it 's better than the system that we had before . phd a: yeah . mainly because of the sixty - four hertz and the good vad . professor b: ok . phd a: and then i took this system and , mmm , w uh , i p we put the old filters also . so we have this good system , with good vad , with the short filter and with the long filter , and , um , with the short filter it 's not worse . so well , is it professor b: ok . phd a: it 's in professor b: so that 's that 's all fine . phd a: yes . uh professor b: but what you 're saying is that when you do these so let me try to understand . when when you do these same improvements to proposal - one , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: that , uh , on the i things are somewhat better , uh , in proposal - two for the well - matched case and somewhat worse for the other two cases . phd a: yeah . professor b: so does , uh when you say , uh so the th now that these other things are in there , is it the case maybe that the additions of proposal - two over proposal - one are less im important ? phd a: yeah . probably , yeah . professor b: i get it . phd a: um so , yeah . uh . yeah , but it 's a good thing anyway to have shorter delay . then we tried , um , to do something like proposal - two but having , um , e using also msg features . so there is this klt part , which use just the standard features , professor b: mm - hmm . right . phd a: and then two neura two neural networks . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: mmm , and it does n't seem to help . um , however , we just have one result , which is the italian mismatch , so . uh . we have to wait for that to fill the whole table , but professor b: ok . there was a start of some effort on something related to voicing or something . is that ? phd a: yeah . um , yeah . so basically we try to , uh , find good features that could be used for voicing detection , uh , but it 's still , uh on the , um t phd f: oh , well , i have the picture . phd a: we w basically we are still playing with matlab to to look at at what happened , phd c: what sorts of phd f: yeah . phd a: and phd c: what sorts of features are you looking at ? phd f: we have some phd a: so we would be looking at , um , the variance of the spectrum of the excitation , phd f: uh , um , this , this , and this . phd a: something like this , which is should be high for voiced sounds . uh , we phd c: wait a minute . i what does that mean ? the variance of the spectrum of excitation . phd a: yeah . so the so basically the spectrum of the excitation for a purely periodic sig signal shou sh professor b: ok . yeah , w what yo what you 're calling the excitation , as i recall , is you 're subtracting the the , um the mel mel mel filter , uh , spectrum from the fft spectrum . phd a: e that 's right . yeah . so professor b: right . phd a: yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: so we have the mel f filter bank , we have the fft , so we just professor b: so it 's it 's not really an excitation , phd a: no . professor b: but it 's something that hopefully tells you something about the excitation . phd a: yeah , that 's right . professor b: yeah , yeah . phd a: um yeah . phd f: we have here some histogram , phd a: e yeah , phd f: but they have a lot of overlap . phd a: but it 's it 's still yeah . so , well , for unvoiced portion we have something tha that has a mean around o point three , and for voiced portion the mean is o point fifty - nine . but the variance seem quite high . phd c: how do you know ? phd a: so mmm . phd c: how did you get your voiced and unvoiced truth data ? phd a: we used , uh , timit and we used canonical mappings between the phones phd f: yeah . we , uh , use timit on this , phd a: and phd f: for phd a: th yeah . phd f: but if we look at it in one sentence , it apparently it 's good , i think . phd a: yeah , but yeah . uh , so it 's noisy timit . that 's right . yeah . grad e: it 's noisy timit . phd f: yeah . phd a: it seems quite robust to noise , so when we take we draw its parameters across time for a clean sentence and then nois the same noisy sentence , it 's very close . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . so there are there is this . there could be also the , um something like the maximum of the auto - correlation function or which phd c: is this a a s a trained system ? or is it a system where you just pick some thresholds ? ho - how does it work ? phd a: right now we just are trying to find some features . and , phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: uh yeah . hopefully , i think what we want to have is to put these features in s some kind of , um well , to to obtain a statistical model on these features and to or just to use a neural network and hopefully these features w would help phd c: because it seems like what you said about the mean of the the voiced and the unvoiced { comment } that seemed pretty encouraging . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: well , yeah , except the variance was big . phd c: right ? phd a: yeah . except the variance is quite high . professor b: right ? phd c: well , y phd a: yeah . phd c: well , y i i do n't know that i would trust that so much because you 're doing these canonical mappings from timit labellings . phd a: uh - huh . phd c: right ? so , really that 's sort of a cartoon picture about what 's voiced and unvoiced . so that could be giving you a lot of variance . phd a: yeah . phd c: i mean , i it it may be that that you 're finding something good and that the variance is sort of artificial because of how you 're getting your truth . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . but another way of looking at it might be that i mean , what w we we are coming up with feature sets after all . so another way of looking at it is that um , the mel cepstru mel spectrum , mel cepstrum , any of these variants , um , give you the smooth spectrum . it 's the spectral envelope . by going back to the fft , you 're getting something that is more like the raw data . so the question is , what characterization and you 're playing around with this another way of looking at it is what characterization of the difference between the raw data and this smooth version is something that you 're missing that could help ? so , i mean , looking at different statistical measures of that difference , coming up with some things and just trying them out and seeing if you add them onto the feature vector does that make things better or worse in noise , where you 're really just i i the way i 'm looking at it is not so much you 're trying to f find the best the world 's best voiced - unvoiced , uh , uh , classifier , phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: mmm . professor b: but it 's more that , you know , uh , uh , try some different statistical characterizations of that difference back to the raw data phd c: right . professor b: and and m maybe there 's something there that the system can use . phd c: right . phd a: yeah . yeah , but ther more obvious is that yeah . the the more obvious is that that well , using the th the fft , um , you just it gives you just information about if it 's voiced or not voiced , ma mainly , i mean . but so , professor b: yeah . phd a: this is why we we started to look by having sort of voiced phonemes professor b: well , that 's the rea w w what i 'm arguing is that 's yeah . i mean , uh , what i 'm arguing is that that that 's givi you gives you your intuition . phd a: and mm - hmm . professor b: but in in reality , it 's you know , there 's all of this this overlap and so forth , grad e: oh , sorry . professor b: and but what i 'm saying is that may be ok , because what you 're really getting is not actually voiced versus unvoiced , both for the fac the reason of the overlap and and then , uh , th you know , structural reasons , uh , uh , like the one that chuck said , that that in fact , well , the data itself is that you 're working with is not perfect . phd a: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: so , what i 'm saying is maybe that 's not a killer because you 're just getting some characterization , one that 's driven by your intuition about voiced - unvoiced certainly , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but it 's just some characterization of something back in the in the in the almost raw data , rather than the smooth version . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and your intuition is driving you towards particular kinds of , uh , statistical characterizations of , um , what 's missing from the spectral envelope . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: um , obviously you have something about the excitation , um , and what is it about the excitation , and , you know and you 're not getting the excitation anyway , you know . so so i i would almost take a uh , especially if if these trainings and so forth are faster , i would almost just take a uh , a scattershot at a few different ways of look of characterizing that difference and , uh , you could have one of them but and and see , you know , which of them helps . phd a: mm - hmm . ok . phd c: so i is the idea that you 're going to take whatever features you develop and and just add them onto the future vector ? or , what 's the use of the the voiced - unvoiced detector ? phd a: uh , i guess we do n't know exactly yet . but , um yeah . th phd c: it 's not part of a vad system that you 're doing ? phd f: no . phd a: uh , no . no . phd c: oh , ok . phd a: no , the idea was , i guess , to to use them as as features . phd c: features . i see . phd a: uh yeah , it could be , uh it could be a neural network that does voiced and unvoiced detection , phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: but it could be in the also the big neural network that does phoneme classification . phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: mmm . yeah . professor b: but each one of the mixture components i mean , you have , uh , uh , variance only , so it 's kind of like you 're just multiplying together these , um , probabilities from the individual features within each mixture . so it 's so , uh , it seems l you know phd c: i think it 's a neat thing . uh , it seems like a good idea . professor b: yeah . um . yeah . i mean , i know that , um , people doing some robustness things a ways back were were just doing just being gross and just throwing in the fft and actually it was n't was n't was n't so bad . uh , so it would s and and you know that i it 's got ta hurt you a little bit to not have a a spectral , uh a s a smooth spectral envelope , so there must be something else that you get in return for that phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: that , uh uh so . phd c: so how does uh , maybe i 'm going in too much detail , but how exactly do you make the difference between the fft and the smoothed spectral envelope ? wha - wh i i uh , how is that , uh ? phd a: um , we just how did we do it up again ? phd f: uh , we distend the we have the twenty - three coefficient af after the mel f filter , phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: and we extend these coefficient between the all the frequency range . phd c: mm - hmm . phd f: and i the interpolation i between the point is give for the triang triangular filter , the value of the triangular filter and of this way we obtained this mode this model speech . phd a: s professor b: so you essentially take the values that th that you get from the triangular filter and extend them to sor sort of like a rectangle , that 's at that m value . phd f: yeah . phd a: yeah . i think we have linear interpolation . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: so we have we have one point for one energy for each filter bank , phd f: mmm yeah , it 's linear . phd c: mmm . professor b: oh . phd a: which is the energy that 's centered on on on the triangle phd f: yeah . at the n at the center of the filter phd c: so you you end up with a vector that 's the same length as the fft vector ? phd a: yeah . that 's right . phd f: yeah . phd c: and then you just , uh , compute differences phd f: yeah . i have here one example if you if you want see something like that . phd a: then we compute the difference . phd c: and , phd a: yeah . uh - huh . professor b: ok . phd c: uh , sum the differences ? phd a: so . and i think the variance is computed only from , like , two hundred hertz to one to fifteen hundred . phd c: oh ! ok . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: two thou two { comment } fifteen hundred ? professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: because phd f: no . professor b: right . phd f: two hundred and fifty thousand . phd a: fifteen hundred . because yeah . phd f: yeah . two thousand and fifteen hundred . phd a: above , um it seems that well , some voiced sound can have also , like , a noisy part on high frequencies , and but professor b: yeah . phd a: well , it 's just professor b: no , it 's makes sense to look at low frequencies . phd c: so this is uh , basically this is comparing an original version of the signal to a smoothed version of the same signal ? phd f: yeah . professor b: right . so i so i i this is i mean , i you could argue about whether it should be linear interpolation or or or or zeroeth order , but but phd c: uh - huh . professor b: at any rate something like this is what you 're feeding your recognizer , typically . phd c: like which of the ? professor b: no . uh , so the mel cepstrum is the is the is the cepstrum of this this , uh , spectrum or log spectrum , phd a: so this is yeah . phd c: yeah . right , right . professor b: whatever it you - you 're subtracting in in in power domain or log domain ? phd a: in log domain . yeah . phd f: log domain . professor b: ok . so it 's sort of like division , when you do the yeah , the spectra . phd f: yeah . phd a: uh , yeah . phd c: it 's the ratio . professor b: um . yeah . but , anyway , um and that 's phd c: so what 's th uh , what 's the intuition behind this kind of a thing ? i i do n't know really know the signal - processing well enough to understand what what is that doing . phd a: so . yeah . what happen if what we have have what we would like to have is some spectrum of the excitation signal , professor b: yeah . i guess that makes sense . yeah . phd a: which is for voiced sound ideally a a pulse train phd c: uh - huh . phd a: and for unvoiced it 's something that 's more flat . phd c: uh - huh . right . phd a: and the way to do this is that well , we have the we have the fft because it 's computed in in the in the system , and we have the mel filter banks , phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: and so if we if we , like , remove the mel filter bank from the fft , we have something that 's close to the excitation signal . grad e: oh . phd a: it 's something that 's like a a a train of p a pulse train for voiced sound phd c: ok . professor b: yeah . phd c: oh ! ok . yeah . phd a: and that 's that should be flat for professor b: yeah . phd c: i see . so do you have a picture that sh ? phd a: so - it 's y phd c: is this for a voiced segment , phd a: yeah . phd c: this picture ? what does it look like for unvoiced ? phd f: yeah . phd a: you have several some unvoiced ? phd f: the dif no . unvoiced , i do n't have phd a: oh . phd f: for unvoiced . professor b: yeah . so , you know , all phd f: i 'm sorry . phd a: but yeah . professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah . this is the between phd a: this is another voiced example . yeah . phd f: no . but it 's this , phd a: oh , yeah . this is phd f: but between the frequency that we are considered for the excitation phd a: right . mm - hmm . phd f: for the difference and this is the difference . phd a: yeah . phd c: this is the difference . ok . phd a: so , of course , it 's around zero , professor b: yeah . grad e: sure looks phd a: but grad e: hmm . phd a: well , no . phd c: hmm . phd a: it is phd f: yeah . because we begin , uh , in fifteen point the fifteen point . phd c: so , does does the periodicity of this signal say something about the the phd f: fifteen p phd a: so it 's yeah . professor b: pitch . phd a: it 's the pitch . phd c: the pitch ? phd a: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd c: ok . professor b: that 's like fundamental frequency . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: so , i mean , i t t phd c: ok . i see . professor b: i mean , to first order what you 'd what you 're doing i mean , ignore all the details and all the ways which is that these are complete lies . uh , the the you know , what you 're doing in feature extraction for speech recognition is you have , uh , in your head a a a a simplified production model for speech , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: in which you have a periodic or aperiodic source that 's driving some filters . phd c: mm - hmm . phd f: yeah . this is the the auto - correlation the r - zero energy . phd a: do you have the mean do you have the mean for the auto - correlation ? professor b: uh , first order for speech recognition , you say `` i do n't care about the source `` . phd f: for yeah . phd a: well , i mean for the the energy . phd f: i have the mean . professor b: right ? phd c: right . professor b: and so you just want to find out what the filters are . phd c: right . phd f: yeah . professor b: the filters roughly act like a , um a , uh a an overall resonant you know , f some resonances and so forth that th that 's processing excitation . phd f: here . phd a: they should be more close . phd f: ah , no . this is this ? more close . is this ? and this . phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: so they are this is there is less difference . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so if you look at the spectral envelope , just the very smooth properties of it , you get something closer to that . phd a: this is less it 's less robust . phd f: less robust . yeah . phd a: oh , yeah . professor b: and the notion is if you have the full spectrum , with all the little nitty - gritty details , that that has the effect of both , phd c: yeah . professor b: and it would be a multiplication in in frequency domain phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so that would be like an addition in log power spectrum domain . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: and so this is saying , well , if you really do have that sort of vocal tract envelope , and you subtract that off , what you get is the excitation . and i call that lies because you do n't really have that , you just have some kind of signal - processing trickery to get something that 's kind of smooth . it 's not really what 's happening in the vocal tract phd c: yeah . professor b: so you 're not really getting the vocal excitation . phd c: right . professor b: that 's why i was going to the why i was referring to it in a more a more , uh , uh , conservative way , when i was saying `` well , it 's yeah , it 's the excitation `` . but it 's not really the excitation . it 's whatever it is that 's different between phd c: oh . this moved in the professor b: so so , stand standing back from that , you sort of say there 's this very detailed representation . phd c: yeah . professor b: you go to a smooth representation . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: you go to a smooth representation cuz this typically generalizes better . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: um , but whenever you smooth you lose something , so the question is have you lost something you can you use ? phd c: right . professor b: um , probably you would n't want to go to the extreme of just ta saying `` ok , our feature set will be the fft `` , cuz we really think we do gain something in robustness from going to something smoother , but maybe there 's something that we missed . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so what is it ? phd c: yeah . professor b: and then you go back to the intuition that , well , you do n't really get the excitation , but you get something related to it . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: and it and as you can see from those pictures , you do get something that shows some periodicity , uh , in frequency , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: you know , and and and also in time . phd c: hmm . professor b: so phd c: that 's that 's really neat . professor b: so , phd c: so you do n't have one for unvoiced picture ? phd f: uh , not here . phd c: oh . phd f: no , i have s phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd f: but not here . professor b: but presumably you 'll see something that wo n't have this kind of , uh , uh , uh , regularity in frequency , uh , in the phd a: but yeah . well . phd f: not here . phd c: i would li i would like to see those pictures . phd f: well , so . professor b: yeah . phd f: i ca n't see you { comment } now . professor b: yeah . phd c: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: i do n't have . phd c: and so you said this is pretty doing this kind of thing is pretty robust to noise ? phd a: it seems , yeah . um , phd c: huh . phd f: pfft . oops . the mean is different with it , because the the histogram for the the classifica phd a: no , no , no . but th the kind of robustness to noise phd f: oh ! phd a: so if if you take this frame , uh , from the noisy utterance and the same frame from the clean utterance phd f: hmm . phd c: you end up with a similar difference phd a: y y y yeah . we end up with phd c: over here ? phd a: yeah . phd c: ok . cool ! phd f: i have here the same frame for the clean speech phd c: oh , that 's clean . phd f: the same cle phd c: oh , ok phd f: but they are a difference . phd a: yeah , that 's phd f: because here the fft is only with two hundred fifty - six point phd c: oh . phd f: and this is with five hundred twelve . phd a: yeah . this is kind of inter interesting also phd c: ok . phd a: because if we use the standard , uh , frame length of of , like , twenty - five milliseconds , um , what happens is that for low - pitched voiced , because of the frame length , y you do n't really have you do n't clearly see this periodic structure , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: because of the first lobe of of each each of the harmonics . phd c: so this one inclu is a longer ah . phd a: so , this is like yeah , fifty milliseconds or something like that . phd f: fifty millis yeah . phd a: yeah , but it 's the same frame and phd c: oh , it 's that time - frequency trade - off thing . phd a: yeah . phd c: right ? i see . yeah . phd a: so , yeah . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: oh . oh , so this i is this the difference here , for that ? phd f: no . this is the signal . this is the signal . phd a: i see that . oh , yeah . phd f: the frame . phd c: oh , that 's the f the original . phd a: yeah . phd f: this is the fra the original frame . phd a: so with a short frame basically you have only two periods phd c: yeah . phd a: and it 's not not enough to to have this kind of neat things . phd c: mm - hmm . phd f: mm - hmm . phd c: yeah . phd a: but phd f: and here no , well . phd a: yeah . so probably we 'll have to use , like , long f long frames . mm - hmm . phd c: mm - hmm . grad e: hmm . phd c: oh . professor b: mmm . phd c: that 's interesting . professor b: yeah , maybe . well , i mean it looks better , but , i mean , the thing is if if , uh if you 're actually asking you know , if you actually j uh , need to do place along an fft , it may be it may be pushing things . phd a: yeah . professor b: and and , uh phd c: would you would you wan na do this kind of , uh , difference thing after you do spectral subtraction ? phd a: uh , maybe . phd f: no . maybe we can do that . phd a: mmm . professor b: hmm . the spectral subtraction is being done at what level ? is it being done at the level of fft bins or at the level of , uh , mel spectrum or something ? phd a: um , i guess it depends . professor b: i mean , how are they doing it ? phd a: how they 're doing it ? yeah . um , i guess ericsson is on the , um , filter bank , phd f: fft . filter bank , phd a: no ? it 's on the filter bank , phd f: yeah . phd a: so . so , yeah , probably i i it yeah . professor b: so in that case , it might not make much difference at all . phd c: seems like you 'd wan na do it on the fft bins . professor b: maybe . i mean , certainly it 'd be better . phd c: i i mean , if you were gon na uh , for for this purpose , that is . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . ok . phd a: mmm . professor b: what else ? phd a: uh . yeah , that 's all . so we 'll perhaps try to convince ogi people to use the new the new filters and yeah . professor b: ok . uh , has has anything happened yet on this business of having some sort of standard , uh , source , phd a: uh , not yet professor b: or ? phd a: but i wi i will call them and professor b: ok . phd a: now they are i think they have more time because they have this well , eurospeech deadline is over phd c: when is the next , um , aurora deadline ? phd a: and it 's , um , in june . yeah . phd c: june . professor b: early june , late june , middle june ? phd a: i do n't know w professor b: hmm . grad e: hmm . professor b: ok . um , and he 's been doing all the talking but but these he 's he 's , uh phd f: yeah . professor b: this is this by the way a bad thing . we 're trying to get , um , m more female voices in this record as well . so . make sur make sure carmen talks as well . uh , but has he pretty much been talking about what you 're doing also , and ? phd f: oh , i i am doing this . professor b: yes . phd f: yeah , yeah . i do n't know . i 'm sorry , but i think that for the recognizer for the meeting recorder that it 's better that i do n't speak . professor b: yeah , well . phd f: because professor b: you know , uh , we 'll get we 'll get to , uh , spanish voices sometime , and we do we want to recognize , uh , you too . phd f: after the after , uh , the result for the ti - digits on the meeting record there will be foreigns people . phd a: yeah , but professor b: oh , no . phd c: y professor b: we like we we 're we 're w we are we 're in the , uh , bourlard - hermansky - morgan , uh , frame of mind . yeah , we like high error rates . it 's phd a: yeah . professor b: that way there 's lots of work to do . so it 's uh , anything to talk about ? grad d: n um , not not not much is new . so when i talked about what i 'm planning to do last time , i said i was , um , going to use avendano 's method of , um , using a transformation , um , to map from long analysis frames which are used for removing reverberation to short analysis frames for feature calculation . he has a trick for doing that involving viewing the dft as a matrix . um , but , uh , um , i decided not to do that after all because i i realized to use it i 'd need to have these short analysis frames get plugged directly into the feature computation somehow professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: and right now i think our feature computation is set to up to , um , take , um , audio as input , in general . so i decided that i i 'll do the reverberation removal on the long analysis windows and then just re - synthesize audio and then send that . professor b: this is in order to use the sri system or something . right ? grad d: um , or or even if i 'm using our system , i was thinking it might be easier to just re - synthesize the audio , professor b: yeah ? grad d: because then i could just feacalc as is and i would n't have to change the code . professor b: oh , ok . yeah . i mean , it 's um , certainly in a short short - term this just sounds easier . grad d: uh - huh . professor b: yeah . i mean , longer - term if it 's if it turns out to be useful , one one might want to do something else , grad d: right . that 's true . professor b: but uh , uh , i mean , in in other words , you you may be putting other kinds of errors in from the re - synthesis process . grad d: but e u from the re - synthesis ? um , professor b: yeah . grad d: o - ok . i do n't know anything about re - synthesis . uh , how likely do you think that is ? professor b: uh , it depends what you what you do . i mean , it 's it 's it 's , uh , um do n't know . but anyway it sounds like a reasonable way to go for a for an initial thing , and we can look at at exactly what you end up doing and and then figure out if there 's some something that could be be hurt by the end part of the process . grad d: ok . professor b: ok . so that 's that was it , huh ? grad d: that yeah , e that 's it , that 's it . professor b: ok . ok . grad d: uh - huh . professor b: um , anything to add ? grad e: um . well , i 've been continuing reading . i went off on a little tangent this past week , um , looking at , uh , uh , modulation s spectrum stuff , um , and and learning a bit about what what , um what it is , and , uh , the importance of it in speech recognition . and i found some some , uh , neat papers , um , historical papers from , um , kanedera , hermansky , and arai . professor b: yeah . grad e: and they they did a lot of experiments where th where , um , they take speech and , um , e they modify the , uh they they they measure the relative importance of having different , um , portions of the modulation spectrum intact . professor b: yeah . grad e: and they find that the the spectrum between one and sixteen hertz in the modulation is , uh is im important for speech recognition . professor b: sure . i mean , this sort of goes back to earlier stuff by drullman . grad e: um . professor b: and and , uh , the the msg features were sort of built up with this notion grad e: yeah . right . professor b: but , i guess , i thought you had brought this up in the context of , um , targets somehow . grad e: right . professor b: but i m grad e: um professor b: i it 's not i mean , they 're sort of not in the same kind of category as , say , a phonetic target or a syllabic target grad e: mmm . mm - hmm . professor b: or a grad e: um , i was thinking more like using them as as the inputs to to the detectors . professor b: or a feature or something . oh , i see . well , that 's sort of what msg does . grad e: yeah . yeah . professor b: right ? so it 's grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: but but , uh grad e: s professor b: yeah . grad e: yeah . professor b: anyway , we 'll talk more about it later . grad e: ok . professor b: yeah . grad e: we can talk more about it later . professor b: yeah . yeah . grad e: yeah . professor b: so maybe , le phd c: should we do digits ? professor b: let 's do digits . let you you start . grad d: oh , ok . grad e: l fifty . phd a: right .

phd a informed the team that the team was looking at the difference between the mel filter and fft spectrum , which he called the variance . the variance for voice-unvoice was high . phd c thought that the variance was kind of artificial because it was being done using canonical mappings from timit labelings .

summarize the discussion about vad improvements </s> phd a: it 's not very significant . professor b: uh , channel one . yes . grad d: channel three . professor b: ok . phd f: mm - hmm . grad d: channel three . phd a: ta grad d: channel three . alright . professor b: ok , did you solve speech recognition last week ? grad e: almost . professor b: alright ! let 's do image processing . phd c: yes , again . phd a: great . phd c: we did it again , morgan . professor b: alright ! grad e: doo - doop , doo - doo . phd a: what 's wrong with ? professor b: ok . it 's april fifth . actually , hynek should be getting back in town shortly if he is n't already . phd c: is he gon na come here ? professor b: uh . well , we 'll drag him here . i know where he is . phd c: so when you said `` in town `` , you mean oregon . professor b: u u u u uh , i meant , you know , this end of the world , yeah , is really what i meant , phd c: oh . grad e: doo , doo - doo . professor b: uh , cuz he 's been in europe . grad e: doo - doo . professor b: so . phd c: i have something just fairly brief to report on . professor b: mmm . phd c: um , i did some experim uh , uh , just a few more experiments before i had to , uh , go away for the w well , that week . professor b: great ! phd c: was it last week or whenever ? um , so what i was started playing with was the th again , this is the htk back - end . and , um , i was curious because the way that they train up the models , they go through about four sort of rounds of of training . and in the first round they do uh , i think it 's three iterations , and for the last three rounds e e they do seven iterations of re - estimation in each of those three . and so , you know , that 's part of what takes so long to train the the the back - end for this . professor b: i 'm sorry , i did n't quite get that . there 's there 's four and there 's seven and i i 'm sorry . phd c: yeah . uh , maybe i should write it on the board . so , there 's four rounds of training . um , i g i g i guess you could say iterations . the first one is three , then seven , seven , and seven . and what these numbers refer to is the number of times that the , uh , hmm re - estimation is run . it 's this program called h e professor b: but in htk , what 's the difference between , uh , a an inner loop and an outer loop in these iterations ? phd c: ok . so what happens is , um , at each one of these points , you increase the number of gaussians in the model . professor b: yeah . oh , right ! this was the mix up stuff . phd c: yeah . the mix up . professor b: that 's right . phd c: right . professor b: i remember now . phd c: and so , in the final one here , you end up with , uh for all of the the digit words , you end up with , uh , three mixtures per state , professor b: yeah . phd c: eh , in the final thing . so i had done some experiments where i was i i want to play with the number of mixtures . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: but , um , uh , i wanted to first test to see if we actually need to do this many iterations early on . grad e: uh , one , two , professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: and so , um , i i ran a couple of experiments where i reduced that to l to be three , two , two , uh , five , i think , and i got almost the exact same results . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: and but it runs much much faster . so , um , i i think m it only took something like , uh , three or four hours to do the full training , professor b: as opposed to ? phd f: good . phd c: as opposed to wh what , sixteen hours or something like that ? i mean , it takes you have to do an overnight basically , the way it is set up now . phd f: yeah . it depends . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: so , uh , even we do n't do anything else , doing something like this could allow us to turn experiments around a lot faster . professor b: and then when you have your final thing , do a full one , so it 's phd c: and when you have your final thing , we go back to this . phd f: yeah . phd c: so , um , and it 's a real simple change to make . i mean , it 's like one little text file you edit and change those numbers , and you do n't do anything else . phd f: oh , this is a phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: and then you just run . phd f: ok . phd c: so it 's a very simple change to make and it does n't seem to hurt all that much . phd a: so you you run with three , two , two , five ? that 's a phd c: so i uh , i i have to look to see what the exact numbers were . phd a: yeah . phd c: i i thought was , like , three , two , two , five , phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: but i i 'll i 'll double check . it was over a week ago that i did it , phd a: ok . mm - hmm . phd c: so i ca n't remember exactly . grad e: oh . phd c: but , uh professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: um , but it 's so much faster . i it makes a big difference . grad e: hmm . phd c: so we could do a lot more experiments and throw a lot more stuff in there . phd f: yeah . professor b: that 's great . phd c: um . oh , the other thing that i did was , um , i compiled the htk stuff for the linux boxes . so we have this big thing that we got from ibm , which is a five - processor machine . really fast , but it 's running linux . so , you can now run your experiments on that machine and you can run five at a time and it runs , uh , as fast as , you know , uh , five different machines . phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: mm - hmm . phd c: so , um , i 've forgotten now what the name of that machine is but i can i can send email around about it . phd a: yeah . phd c: and so we 've got it now htk 's compiled for both the linux and for , um , the sparcs . um , you have to make you have to make sure that in your dot cshrc , um , it detects whether you 're running on the linux or a a sparc and points to the right executables . uh , and you may not have had that in your dot cshrc before , if you were always just running the sparc . so , um , phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: uh , i can i can tell you exactly what you need to do to get all of that to work . but it 'll it really increases what we can run on . grad e: hmm . cool . phd c: so , together with the fact that we 've got these faster linux boxes and that it takes less time to do these , um , we should be able to crank through a lot more experiments . phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: so . grad e: hmm . phd c: so after i did that , then what i wanted to do { comment } was try increasing the number of mixtures , just to see , um see how how that affects performance . phd a: yeah . phd c: so . professor b: yeah . in fact , you could do something like keep exactly the same procedure and then add a fifth thing onto it phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: that had more . phd c: exactly . professor b: yeah . phd c: right . right . grad e: so at at the middle o where the arrows are showing , that 's you 're adding one more mixture per state , phd c: uh - huh . uh , grad e: or ? phd c: let 's see , uh . it goes from this uh , try to go it backwards this at this point it 's two mixtures per state . so this just adds one . except that , uh , actually for the silence model , it 's six mixtures per state . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: uh , so it goes to two . grad e: ok . phd c: um . and i think what happens here is professor b: might be between , uh , shared , uh shared variances or something , phd c: yeah . i think that 's what it is . professor b: or phd c: uh , yeah . it 's , uh shoot . i i i ca n't remember now what happens at that first one . uh , i have to look it up and see . grad e: oh , ok . phd c: um , there because they start off with , uh , an initial model which is just this global model , and then they split it to the individuals . and so , it may be that that 's what 's happening here . i i i have to look it up and see . i i do n't exactly remember . grad e: ok . professor b: ok . phd c: so . that 's it . professor b: alright . so what else ? phd a: um . yeah . there was a conference call this tuesday . um . i do n't know yet the what happened tuesday , but the points that they were supposed to discuss is still , uh , things like the weights , uh professor b: oh , this is a conference call for , uh , uh , aurora participant sort of thing . grad e: for phd a: yeah . yeah . professor b: i see . phd a: mmm . professor b: do you know who was who was since we were n't in on it , uh , do you know who was in from ogi ? was was was hynek involved or was it sunil phd a: i have no idea . professor b: or ? phd a: mmm , i just professor b: oh , you do n't know . ok . phd a: yeah . professor b: alright . phd a: um , yeah . so the points were the the weights how to weight the different error rates that are obtained from different language and and conditions . um , it 's not clear that they will keep the same kind of weighting . right now it 's a weighting on on improvement . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: some people are arguing that it would be better to have weights on uh well , to to combine error rates before computing improvement . uh , and the fact is that for right now for the english , they have weights they they combine error rates , but for the other languages they combine improvement . so it 's not very consistent . um professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . the , um yeah . and so well , this is a point . and right now actually there is a thing also , uh , that happens with the current weight is that a very non - significant improvement on the well - matched case result in huge differences in in the final number . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: and so , perhaps they will change the weights to phd c: hmm . phd a: yeah . phd c: how should that be done ? i mean , it it seems like there 's a simple way phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: uh , this seems like an obvious mistake or something . professor b: well , i mean , the fact that it 's inconsistent is an obvious mistake . phd c: th - they 're professor b: but the but , um , the other thing phd a: in professor b: i do n't know i have n't thought it through , but one one would think that each it it 's like if you say what 's the what 's the best way to do an average , an arithmetic average or a geometric average ? phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: it depends what you wan na show . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: each each one is gon na have a different characteristic . phd a: yeah . professor b: so phd c: well , it seems like they should do , like , the percentage improvement or something , rather than the absolute improvement . phd a: tha - that 's what they do . professor b: well , they are doing that . phd a: yeah . professor b: no , that is relative . but the question is , do you average the relative improvements or do you average the error rates and take the relative improvement maybe of that ? phd a: yeah . yeah . professor b: and the thing is it 's not just a pure average because there are these weightings . phd c: oh . professor b: it 's a weighted average . um . phd a: yeah . and so when you average the the relative improvement it tends to to give a lot of of , um , importance to the well - matched case because the baseline is already very good and , um , i it 's phd c: why do n't they not look at improvements but just look at your av your scores ? you know , figure out how to combine the scores phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: with a weight or whatever , and then give you a score here 's your score . and then they can do the same thing for the baseline system and here 's its score . and then you can look at phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: well , that 's what he 's seeing as one of the things they could do . phd a: yeah . professor b: it 's just when you when you get all done , i think that they pro i m i i was n't there but i think they started off this process with the notion that you should be significantly better than the previous standard . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: and , um , so they said `` how much is significantly better ? what do you ? `` and and so they said `` well , you know , you should have half the errors , `` or something , `` that you had before `` . phd a: mm - hmm . hmm . phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . professor b: so it 's , uh , but it does seem like phd c: hmm . professor b: i i it does seem like it 's more logical to combine them first and then do the phd a: combine error rates and then professor b: yeah . phd a: yeah . well professor b: yeah . phd a: but there is this this is this still this problem of weights . when when you combine error rate it tends to give more importance to the difficult cases , and some people think that professor b: oh , yeah ? phd a: well , they have different , um , opinions about this . some people think that it 's more important to look at to have ten percent imp relative improvement on well - matched case than to have fifty percent on the m mismatched , and other people think that it 's more important to improve a lot on the mismatch and so , bu phd c: it sounds like they do n't really have a good idea about what the final application is gon na be . phd a: l de fff ! mmm . professor b: well , you know , the the thing is that if you look at the numbers on the on the more difficult cases , um , if you really believe that was gon na be the predominant use , none of this would be good enough . phd a: yeah . mmm . yeah . professor b: nothing anybody 's phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: whereas you sort of with some reasonable error recovery could imagine in the better cases that these these systems working . so , um , i think the hope would be that it would uh , it would work well for the good cases and , uh , it would have reasonable reas soft degradation as you got to worse and worse conditions . um . phd c: yeah . i i guess what i 'm i mean , i i was thinking about it in terms of , if i were building the final product and i was gon na test to see which front - end i 'd i wanted to use , i would try to weight things depending on the exact environment that i was gon na be using the system in . professor b: but but no . phd c: if i professor b: well , no well , no . i mean , it is n't the operating theater . i mean , they don they they do n't they do n't really know , i think . phd c: yeah . professor b: i mean , i th phd c: so if if they do n't know , does n't that suggest the way for them to go ? uh , you assume everything 's equal . i mean , y y i mean , you professor b: well , i mean , i i think one thing to do is to just not rely on a single number to maybe have two or three numbers , phd c: yeah . professor b: you know , phd c: right . professor b: and and and say here 's how much you , uh you improve the , uh the the relatively clean case and here 's or or well - matched case , and here 's how here 's how much you , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: uh phd c: so not professor b: so . phd c: so not try to combine them . professor b: yeah . uh , actually it 's true . phd c: yeah . professor b: uh , i had forgotten this , uh , but , uh , well - matched is not actually clean . what it is is just that , u uh , the training and testing are similar . phd c: the training and testing . phd a: mmm . professor b: so , i guess what you would do in practice is you 'd try to get as many , uh , examples of similar sort of stuff as you could , and then , phd c: yeah . professor b: uh so the argument for that being the the the more important thing , is that you 're gon na try and do that , but you wan na see how badly it deviates from that when when when the , uh it 's a little different . phd c: so professor b: um , phd c: so you should weight those other conditions v very you know , really small . professor b: but no . that 's a that 's a that 's an arg phd c: i mean , that 's more of an information kind of thing . professor b: that 's an ar well , that 's an argument for it , but let me give you the opposite argument . the opposite argument is you 're never really gon na have a good sample of all these different things . phd c: uh - huh . professor b: i mean , are you gon na have w uh , uh , examples with the windows open , half open , full open ? going seventy , sixty , fifty , forty miles an hour ? on what kind of roads ? phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: with what passing you ? with uh , i mean , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: i i i think that you could make the opposite argument that the well - matched case is a fantasy . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: you know , so , grad e: uh - huh . professor b: i think the thing is is that if you look at the well - matched case versus the po you know , the the medium and the and the fo and then the mismatched case , um , we 're seeing really , really big differences in performance . right ? and and y you would n't like that to be the case . you would n't like that as soon as you step outside you know , a lot of the the cases it 's is phd c: well , that 'll teach them to roll their window up . professor b: i mean , in these cases , if you go from the the , uh i mean , i do n't remember the numbers right off , but if you if you go from the well - matched case to the medium , it 's not an enormous difference in the in the the training - testing situation , and and and it 's a really big performance drop . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: you know , so , um yeah , i mean the reference one , for instance this is back old on , uh on italian uh , was like six percent error for the well - matched and eighteen for the medium - matched and sixty for the for highly - mismatched . uh , and , you know , with these other systems we we helped it out quite a bit , but still there 's there 's something like a factor of two or something between well - matched and medium - matched . and so i think that if what you 're if the goal of this is to come up with robust features , it does mean so you could argue , in fact , that the well - matched is something you should n't be looking at at all , that that the goal is to come up with features that will still give you reasonable performance , you know , with again gentle degregra degradation , um , even though the the testing condition is not the same as the training . phd c: hmm . professor b: so , you know , i i could argue strongly that something like the medium mismatch , which is you know not compl pathological but i mean , what was the the medium - mismatch condition again ? phd a: um , it 's yeah . medium mismatch is everything with the far microphone , but trained on , like , low noisy condition , like low speed and or stopped car and tested on high - speed conditions , i think , like on a highway and professor b: right . phd a: so professor b: so it 's still the same same microphone in both cases , phd a: same microphone but yeah . professor b: but , uh , it 's there 's a mismatch between the car conditions . and that 's uh , you could argue that 's a pretty realistic situation phd c: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , i 'd almost argue for weighting that highest . but the way they have it now , it 's i guess it 's it 's they they compute the relative improvement first and then average that with a weighting ? phd a: yeah . professor b: and so then the that that makes the highly - matched the really big thing . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: um , so , u i since they have these three categories , it seems like the reasonable thing to do is to go across the languages and to come up with an improvement for each of those . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: just say `` ok , in the in the highly - matched case this is what happens , in the m the , uh this other m medium if this happens , in the highly - mismatched that happens `` . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , you should see , uh , a gentle degradation through that . phd a: mmm . professor b: um . but i do n't know . phd a: yeah . professor b: i think that that i i i gather that in these meetings it 's it 's really tricky to make anything ac make any { comment } policy change because everybody has has , uh , their own opinion phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and i do n't know . phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd a: uh , so yeah . yeah , but there is probably a a big change that will be made is that the the baseline th they want to have a new baseline , perhaps , which is , um , mfcc but with a voice activity detector . and apparently , uh , some people are pushing to still keep this fifty percent number . so they want to have at least fifty percent improvement on the baseline , but w which would be a much better baseline . professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: and if we look at the result that sunil sent , just putting the vad in the baseline improved , like , more than twenty percent , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: which would mean then then mean that fifty percent on this new baseline is like , well , more than sixty percent improvement on on o e e uh professor b: so nobody would be there , probably . right ? phd a: right now , nobody would be there , but yeah . professor b: good . work to do . phd a: uh - huh . professor b: so whose vad is is is this a ? phd a: uh , they did n't decide yet . i guess i this was one point of the conference call also , but mmm , so i do n't know . um , but yeah . grad e: oh . professor b: oh , i i think th that would be good . i mean , it 's not that the design of the vad is n't important , but it 's just that it it it does seem to be i uh , a lot of work to do a good job on on that and as well as being a lot of work to do a good job on the feature design , phd a: yeah . professor b: so phd a: yeah . professor b: if we can cut down on that maybe we can make some progress . phd a: m yeah . grad e: hmm . phd a: but i guess perhaps i do n't know w yeah . uh , yeah . per - e s s someone told that perhaps it 's not fair to do that because the , um to make a good vad you do n't have enough to with the the features that are the baseline features . so mmm , you need more features . so you really need to put more more in the in in the front - end . professor b: yeah . phd a: so i professor b: um , phd a: s professor b: sure . but i bu phd c: wait a minute . i i 'm confused . phd a: yeah . phd c: wha - what do you mean ? phd a: yeah , if i professor b: so y so you m s yeah , but well , let 's say for ins see , mfcc for instance does n't have anything in it , uh , related to the pitch . so just just for example . so suppose you 've that what you really wan na do is put a good pitch detector on there and if it gets an unambiguous phd c: oh , oh . i see . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: if it gets an unambiguous result then you 're definitely in a in a in a voice in a , uh , s region with speech . uh . phd c: so there 's this assumption that the v the voice activity detector can only use the mfcc ? phd a: that 's not clear , but this e professor b: well , for the baseline . phd c: yeah . professor b: so so if you use other features then y but it 's just a question of what is your baseline . right ? what is it that you 're supposed to do better than ? phd c: i g yeah . professor b: and so having the baseline be the mfcc 's means that people could choose to pour their ener their effort into trying to do a really good vad phd c: i do n't s but they seem like two separate issues . professor b: or tryi they 're sort of separate . phd c: right ? i mean professor b: unfortunately there 's coupling between them , which is part of what i think stephane is getting to , is that you can choose your features in such a way as to improve the vad . phd a: yeah . professor b: and you also can choose your features in such a way as to prove improve recognition . they may not be the same thing . phd c: but it seems like you should do both . professor b: you should do both phd c: right ? professor b: and and i i think that this still makes i still think this makes sense as a baseline . it 's just saying , as a baseline , we know phd a: mmm . professor b: you know , we had the mfcc 's before , lots of people have done voice activity detectors , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: you might as well pick some voice activity detector and make that the baseline , just like you picked some version of htk and made that the baseline . phd a: yeah . right . professor b: and then let 's try and make everything better . um , and if one of the ways you make it better is by having your features be better features for the vad then that 's so be it . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but , uh , uh , uh , at least you have a starting point that 's um , cuz i i some of the some of the people did n't have a vad at all , i guess . right ? and and phd a: yeah . professor b: then they they looked pretty bad and and in fact what they were doing was n't so bad at all . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: but , um . phd c: yeah . it seems like you should try to make your baseline as good as possible . and if it turns out that you ca n't improve on that , well , i mean , then , you know , nobody wins and you just use mfcc . right ? professor b: yeah . i mean , it seems like , uh , it should include sort of the current state of the art that you want are trying to improve , and mfcc 's , you know , or plp or something it seems like reasonable baseline for the features , and anybody doing this task , uh , is gon na have some sort of voice activity detection at some level , in some way . they might use the whole recognizer to do it but rather than a separate thing , but but they 'll have it on some level . so , um . phd c: it seems like whatever they choose they should n't , you know , purposefully brain - damage a part of the system to make a worse baseline , or professor b: well , i think people just had phd c: you know ? professor b: it was n't that they purposely brain - damaged it . i think people had n't really thought through about the , uh the vad issue . phd c: mmm . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and and then when the the the proposals actually came in and half of them had v a ds and half of them did n't , and the half that did did well and the half that did n't did poorly . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so it 's phd a: mm - hmm . um . professor b: uh . phd a: yeah . so we 'll see what happen with this . and yeah . so what happened since , um , last week is well , from ogi , these experiments on putting vad on the baseline . and these experiments also are using , uh , some kind of noise compensation , so spectral subtraction , and putting on - line normalization , um , just after this . so i think spectral subtraction , lda filtering , and on - line normalization , so which is similar to the pro proposal - one , but with spectral subtraction in addition , and it seems that on - line normalization does n't help further when you have spectral subtraction . phd c: is this related to the issue that you brought up a couple of meetings ago with the the musical tones phd a: i phd c: and ? phd a: i have no idea , because the issue i brought up was with a very simple spectral subtraction approach , phd c: mmm . phd a: and the one that they use at ogi is one from from the proposed the the the aurora prop uh , proposals , which might be much better . so , yeah . i asked sunil for more information about that , but , uh , i do n't know yet . um . and what 's happened here is that we so we have this kind of new , um , reference system which use a nice a a clean downsampling - upsampling , which use a new filter that 's much shorter and which also cuts the frequency below sixty - four hertz , professor b: right . phd a: which was not done on our first proposal . professor b: when you say `` we have that `` , does sunil have it now , too , phd a: i no . professor b: or ? phd a: no . professor b: ok . phd a: because we 're still testing . so we have the result for , uh , just the features professor b: ok . phd a: and we are currently testing with putting the neural network in the klt . um , it seems to improve on the well - matched case , um , but it 's a little bit worse on the mismatch and highly - mismatched i mean when we put the neural network . and with the current weighting i think it 's sh it will be better because the well - matched case is better . mmm . professor b: but how much worse since the weighting might change how how much worse is it on the other conditions , when you say it 's a little worse ? phd a: it 's like , uh , fff , fff { comment } um , { comment } ten percent relative . yeah . professor b: ok . um . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but it has the , uh the latencies are much shorter . that 's phd a: uh - y w when i say it 's worse , it 's not it 's when i i uh , compare proposal - two to proposal - one , so , r uh , y putting neural network compared to n not having any neural network . i mean , this new system is is is better , professor b: uh - huh . phd a: because it has um , this sixty - four hertz cut - off , uh , clean downsampling , and , um what else ? uh , yeah , a good vad . we put the good vad . so . yeah , i do n't know . i i j uh , uh pr professor b: but the latencies but you 've got the latency shorter now . phd a: latency is short is yeah . professor b: yeah . phd f: is n't it phd a: and so professor b: so it 's better than the system that we had before . phd a: yeah . mainly because of the sixty - four hertz and the good vad . professor b: ok . phd a: and then i took this system and , mmm , w uh , i p we put the old filters also . so we have this good system , with good vad , with the short filter and with the long filter , and , um , with the short filter it 's not worse . so well , is it professor b: ok . phd a: it 's in professor b: so that 's that 's all fine . phd a: yes . uh professor b: but what you 're saying is that when you do these so let me try to understand . when when you do these same improvements to proposal - one , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: that , uh , on the i things are somewhat better , uh , in proposal - two for the well - matched case and somewhat worse for the other two cases . phd a: yeah . professor b: so does , uh when you say , uh so the th now that these other things are in there , is it the case maybe that the additions of proposal - two over proposal - one are less im important ? phd a: yeah . probably , yeah . professor b: i get it . phd a: um so , yeah . uh . yeah , but it 's a good thing anyway to have shorter delay . then we tried , um , to do something like proposal - two but having , um , e using also msg features . so there is this klt part , which use just the standard features , professor b: mm - hmm . right . phd a: and then two neura two neural networks . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: mmm , and it does n't seem to help . um , however , we just have one result , which is the italian mismatch , so . uh . we have to wait for that to fill the whole table , but professor b: ok . there was a start of some effort on something related to voicing or something . is that ? phd a: yeah . um , yeah . so basically we try to , uh , find good features that could be used for voicing detection , uh , but it 's still , uh on the , um t phd f: oh , well , i have the picture . phd a: we w basically we are still playing with matlab to to look at at what happened , phd c: what sorts of phd f: yeah . phd a: and phd c: what sorts of features are you looking at ? phd f: we have some phd a: so we would be looking at , um , the variance of the spectrum of the excitation , phd f: uh , um , this , this , and this . phd a: something like this , which is should be high for voiced sounds . uh , we phd c: wait a minute . i what does that mean ? the variance of the spectrum of excitation . phd a: yeah . so the so basically the spectrum of the excitation for a purely periodic sig signal shou sh professor b: ok . yeah , w what yo what you 're calling the excitation , as i recall , is you 're subtracting the the , um the mel mel mel filter , uh , spectrum from the fft spectrum . phd a: e that 's right . yeah . so professor b: right . phd a: yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: so we have the mel f filter bank , we have the fft , so we just professor b: so it 's it 's not really an excitation , phd a: no . professor b: but it 's something that hopefully tells you something about the excitation . phd a: yeah , that 's right . professor b: yeah , yeah . phd a: um yeah . phd f: we have here some histogram , phd a: e yeah , phd f: but they have a lot of overlap . phd a: but it 's it 's still yeah . so , well , for unvoiced portion we have something tha that has a mean around o point three , and for voiced portion the mean is o point fifty - nine . but the variance seem quite high . phd c: how do you know ? phd a: so mmm . phd c: how did you get your voiced and unvoiced truth data ? phd a: we used , uh , timit and we used canonical mappings between the phones phd f: yeah . we , uh , use timit on this , phd a: and phd f: for phd a: th yeah . phd f: but if we look at it in one sentence , it apparently it 's good , i think . phd a: yeah , but yeah . uh , so it 's noisy timit . that 's right . yeah . grad e: it 's noisy timit . phd f: yeah . phd a: it seems quite robust to noise , so when we take we draw its parameters across time for a clean sentence and then nois the same noisy sentence , it 's very close . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . so there are there is this . there could be also the , um something like the maximum of the auto - correlation function or which phd c: is this a a s a trained system ? or is it a system where you just pick some thresholds ? ho - how does it work ? phd a: right now we just are trying to find some features . and , phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: uh yeah . hopefully , i think what we want to have is to put these features in s some kind of , um well , to to obtain a statistical model on these features and to or just to use a neural network and hopefully these features w would help phd c: because it seems like what you said about the mean of the the voiced and the unvoiced { comment } that seemed pretty encouraging . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: well , yeah , except the variance was big . phd c: right ? phd a: yeah . except the variance is quite high . professor b: right ? phd c: well , y phd a: yeah . phd c: well , y i i do n't know that i would trust that so much because you 're doing these canonical mappings from timit labellings . phd a: uh - huh . phd c: right ? so , really that 's sort of a cartoon picture about what 's voiced and unvoiced . so that could be giving you a lot of variance . phd a: yeah . phd c: i mean , i it it may be that that you 're finding something good and that the variance is sort of artificial because of how you 're getting your truth . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . but another way of looking at it might be that i mean , what w we we are coming up with feature sets after all . so another way of looking at it is that um , the mel cepstru mel spectrum , mel cepstrum , any of these variants , um , give you the smooth spectrum . it 's the spectral envelope . by going back to the fft , you 're getting something that is more like the raw data . so the question is , what characterization and you 're playing around with this another way of looking at it is what characterization of the difference between the raw data and this smooth version is something that you 're missing that could help ? so , i mean , looking at different statistical measures of that difference , coming up with some things and just trying them out and seeing if you add them onto the feature vector does that make things better or worse in noise , where you 're really just i i the way i 'm looking at it is not so much you 're trying to f find the best the world 's best voiced - unvoiced , uh , uh , classifier , phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: mmm . professor b: but it 's more that , you know , uh , uh , try some different statistical characterizations of that difference back to the raw data phd c: right . professor b: and and m maybe there 's something there that the system can use . phd c: right . phd a: yeah . yeah , but ther more obvious is that yeah . the the more obvious is that that well , using the th the fft , um , you just it gives you just information about if it 's voiced or not voiced , ma mainly , i mean . but so , professor b: yeah . phd a: this is why we we started to look by having sort of voiced phonemes professor b: well , that 's the rea w w what i 'm arguing is that 's yeah . i mean , uh , what i 'm arguing is that that that 's givi you gives you your intuition . phd a: and mm - hmm . professor b: but in in reality , it 's you know , there 's all of this this overlap and so forth , grad e: oh , sorry . professor b: and but what i 'm saying is that may be ok , because what you 're really getting is not actually voiced versus unvoiced , both for the fac the reason of the overlap and and then , uh , th you know , structural reasons , uh , uh , like the one that chuck said , that that in fact , well , the data itself is that you 're working with is not perfect . phd a: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: so , what i 'm saying is maybe that 's not a killer because you 're just getting some characterization , one that 's driven by your intuition about voiced - unvoiced certainly , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but it 's just some characterization of something back in the in the in the almost raw data , rather than the smooth version . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and your intuition is driving you towards particular kinds of , uh , statistical characterizations of , um , what 's missing from the spectral envelope . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: um , obviously you have something about the excitation , um , and what is it about the excitation , and , you know and you 're not getting the excitation anyway , you know . so so i i would almost take a uh , especially if if these trainings and so forth are faster , i would almost just take a uh , a scattershot at a few different ways of look of characterizing that difference and , uh , you could have one of them but and and see , you know , which of them helps . phd a: mm - hmm . ok . phd c: so i is the idea that you 're going to take whatever features you develop and and just add them onto the future vector ? or , what 's the use of the the voiced - unvoiced detector ? phd a: uh , i guess we do n't know exactly yet . but , um yeah . th phd c: it 's not part of a vad system that you 're doing ? phd f: no . phd a: uh , no . no . phd c: oh , ok . phd a: no , the idea was , i guess , to to use them as as features . phd c: features . i see . phd a: uh yeah , it could be , uh it could be a neural network that does voiced and unvoiced detection , phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: but it could be in the also the big neural network that does phoneme classification . phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: mmm . yeah . professor b: but each one of the mixture components i mean , you have , uh , uh , variance only , so it 's kind of like you 're just multiplying together these , um , probabilities from the individual features within each mixture . so it 's so , uh , it seems l you know phd c: i think it 's a neat thing . uh , it seems like a good idea . professor b: yeah . um . yeah . i mean , i know that , um , people doing some robustness things a ways back were were just doing just being gross and just throwing in the fft and actually it was n't was n't was n't so bad . uh , so it would s and and you know that i it 's got ta hurt you a little bit to not have a a spectral , uh a s a smooth spectral envelope , so there must be something else that you get in return for that phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: that , uh uh so . phd c: so how does uh , maybe i 'm going in too much detail , but how exactly do you make the difference between the fft and the smoothed spectral envelope ? wha - wh i i uh , how is that , uh ? phd a: um , we just how did we do it up again ? phd f: uh , we distend the we have the twenty - three coefficient af after the mel f filter , phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: and we extend these coefficient between the all the frequency range . phd c: mm - hmm . phd f: and i the interpolation i between the point is give for the triang triangular filter , the value of the triangular filter and of this way we obtained this mode this model speech . phd a: s professor b: so you essentially take the values that th that you get from the triangular filter and extend them to sor sort of like a rectangle , that 's at that m value . phd f: yeah . phd a: yeah . i think we have linear interpolation . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: so we have we have one point for one energy for each filter bank , phd f: mmm yeah , it 's linear . phd c: mmm . professor b: oh . phd a: which is the energy that 's centered on on on the triangle phd f: yeah . at the n at the center of the filter phd c: so you you end up with a vector that 's the same length as the fft vector ? phd a: yeah . that 's right . phd f: yeah . phd c: and then you just , uh , compute differences phd f: yeah . i have here one example if you if you want see something like that . phd a: then we compute the difference . phd c: and , phd a: yeah . uh - huh . professor b: ok . phd c: uh , sum the differences ? phd a: so . and i think the variance is computed only from , like , two hundred hertz to one to fifteen hundred . phd c: oh ! ok . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: two thou two { comment } fifteen hundred ? professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: because phd f: no . professor b: right . phd f: two hundred and fifty thousand . phd a: fifteen hundred . because yeah . phd f: yeah . two thousand and fifteen hundred . phd a: above , um it seems that well , some voiced sound can have also , like , a noisy part on high frequencies , and but professor b: yeah . phd a: well , it 's just professor b: no , it 's makes sense to look at low frequencies . phd c: so this is uh , basically this is comparing an original version of the signal to a smoothed version of the same signal ? phd f: yeah . professor b: right . so i so i i this is i mean , i you could argue about whether it should be linear interpolation or or or or zeroeth order , but but phd c: uh - huh . professor b: at any rate something like this is what you 're feeding your recognizer , typically . phd c: like which of the ? professor b: no . uh , so the mel cepstrum is the is the is the cepstrum of this this , uh , spectrum or log spectrum , phd a: so this is yeah . phd c: yeah . right , right . professor b: whatever it you - you 're subtracting in in in power domain or log domain ? phd a: in log domain . yeah . phd f: log domain . professor b: ok . so it 's sort of like division , when you do the yeah , the spectra . phd f: yeah . phd a: uh , yeah . phd c: it 's the ratio . professor b: um . yeah . but , anyway , um and that 's phd c: so what 's th uh , what 's the intuition behind this kind of a thing ? i i do n't know really know the signal - processing well enough to understand what what is that doing . phd a: so . yeah . what happen if what we have have what we would like to have is some spectrum of the excitation signal , professor b: yeah . i guess that makes sense . yeah . phd a: which is for voiced sound ideally a a pulse train phd c: uh - huh . phd a: and for unvoiced it 's something that 's more flat . phd c: uh - huh . right . phd a: and the way to do this is that well , we have the we have the fft because it 's computed in in the in the system , and we have the mel filter banks , phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: and so if we if we , like , remove the mel filter bank from the fft , we have something that 's close to the excitation signal . grad e: oh . phd a: it 's something that 's like a a a train of p a pulse train for voiced sound phd c: ok . professor b: yeah . phd c: oh ! ok . yeah . phd a: and that 's that should be flat for professor b: yeah . phd c: i see . so do you have a picture that sh ? phd a: so - it 's y phd c: is this for a voiced segment , phd a: yeah . phd c: this picture ? what does it look like for unvoiced ? phd f: yeah . phd a: you have several some unvoiced ? phd f: the dif no . unvoiced , i do n't have phd a: oh . phd f: for unvoiced . professor b: yeah . so , you know , all phd f: i 'm sorry . phd a: but yeah . professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah . this is the between phd a: this is another voiced example . yeah . phd f: no . but it 's this , phd a: oh , yeah . this is phd f: but between the frequency that we are considered for the excitation phd a: right . mm - hmm . phd f: for the difference and this is the difference . phd a: yeah . phd c: this is the difference . ok . phd a: so , of course , it 's around zero , professor b: yeah . grad e: sure looks phd a: but grad e: hmm . phd a: well , no . phd c: hmm . phd a: it is phd f: yeah . because we begin , uh , in fifteen point the fifteen point . phd c: so , does does the periodicity of this signal say something about the the phd f: fifteen p phd a: so it 's yeah . professor b: pitch . phd a: it 's the pitch . phd c: the pitch ? phd a: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd c: ok . professor b: that 's like fundamental frequency . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: so , i mean , i t t phd c: ok . i see . professor b: i mean , to first order what you 'd what you 're doing i mean , ignore all the details and all the ways which is that these are complete lies . uh , the the you know , what you 're doing in feature extraction for speech recognition is you have , uh , in your head a a a a simplified production model for speech , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: in which you have a periodic or aperiodic source that 's driving some filters . phd c: mm - hmm . phd f: yeah . this is the the auto - correlation the r - zero energy . phd a: do you have the mean do you have the mean for the auto - correlation ? professor b: uh , first order for speech recognition , you say `` i do n't care about the source `` . phd f: for yeah . phd a: well , i mean for the the energy . phd f: i have the mean . professor b: right ? phd c: right . professor b: and so you just want to find out what the filters are . phd c: right . phd f: yeah . professor b: the filters roughly act like a , um a , uh a an overall resonant you know , f some resonances and so forth that th that 's processing excitation . phd f: here . phd a: they should be more close . phd f: ah , no . this is this ? more close . is this ? and this . phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: so they are this is there is less difference . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so if you look at the spectral envelope , just the very smooth properties of it , you get something closer to that . phd a: this is less it 's less robust . phd f: less robust . yeah . phd a: oh , yeah . professor b: and the notion is if you have the full spectrum , with all the little nitty - gritty details , that that has the effect of both , phd c: yeah . professor b: and it would be a multiplication in in frequency domain phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so that would be like an addition in log power spectrum domain . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: and so this is saying , well , if you really do have that sort of vocal tract envelope , and you subtract that off , what you get is the excitation . and i call that lies because you do n't really have that , you just have some kind of signal - processing trickery to get something that 's kind of smooth . it 's not really what 's happening in the vocal tract phd c: yeah . professor b: so you 're not really getting the vocal excitation . phd c: right . professor b: that 's why i was going to the why i was referring to it in a more a more , uh , uh , conservative way , when i was saying `` well , it 's yeah , it 's the excitation `` . but it 's not really the excitation . it 's whatever it is that 's different between phd c: oh . this moved in the professor b: so so , stand standing back from that , you sort of say there 's this very detailed representation . phd c: yeah . professor b: you go to a smooth representation . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: you go to a smooth representation cuz this typically generalizes better . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: um , but whenever you smooth you lose something , so the question is have you lost something you can you use ? phd c: right . professor b: um , probably you would n't want to go to the extreme of just ta saying `` ok , our feature set will be the fft `` , cuz we really think we do gain something in robustness from going to something smoother , but maybe there 's something that we missed . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so what is it ? phd c: yeah . professor b: and then you go back to the intuition that , well , you do n't really get the excitation , but you get something related to it . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: and it and as you can see from those pictures , you do get something that shows some periodicity , uh , in frequency , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: you know , and and and also in time . phd c: hmm . professor b: so phd c: that 's that 's really neat . professor b: so , phd c: so you do n't have one for unvoiced picture ? phd f: uh , not here . phd c: oh . phd f: no , i have s phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd f: but not here . professor b: but presumably you 'll see something that wo n't have this kind of , uh , uh , uh , regularity in frequency , uh , in the phd a: but yeah . well . phd f: not here . phd c: i would li i would like to see those pictures . phd f: well , so . professor b: yeah . phd f: i ca n't see you { comment } now . professor b: yeah . phd c: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: i do n't have . phd c: and so you said this is pretty doing this kind of thing is pretty robust to noise ? phd a: it seems , yeah . um , phd c: huh . phd f: pfft . oops . the mean is different with it , because the the histogram for the the classifica phd a: no , no , no . but th the kind of robustness to noise phd f: oh ! phd a: so if if you take this frame , uh , from the noisy utterance and the same frame from the clean utterance phd f: hmm . phd c: you end up with a similar difference phd a: y y y yeah . we end up with phd c: over here ? phd a: yeah . phd c: ok . cool ! phd f: i have here the same frame for the clean speech phd c: oh , that 's clean . phd f: the same cle phd c: oh , ok phd f: but they are a difference . phd a: yeah , that 's phd f: because here the fft is only with two hundred fifty - six point phd c: oh . phd f: and this is with five hundred twelve . phd a: yeah . this is kind of inter interesting also phd c: ok . phd a: because if we use the standard , uh , frame length of of , like , twenty - five milliseconds , um , what happens is that for low - pitched voiced , because of the frame length , y you do n't really have you do n't clearly see this periodic structure , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: because of the first lobe of of each each of the harmonics . phd c: so this one inclu is a longer ah . phd a: so , this is like yeah , fifty milliseconds or something like that . phd f: fifty millis yeah . phd a: yeah , but it 's the same frame and phd c: oh , it 's that time - frequency trade - off thing . phd a: yeah . phd c: right ? i see . yeah . phd a: so , yeah . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: oh . oh , so this i is this the difference here , for that ? phd f: no . this is the signal . this is the signal . phd a: i see that . oh , yeah . phd f: the frame . phd c: oh , that 's the f the original . phd a: yeah . phd f: this is the fra the original frame . phd a: so with a short frame basically you have only two periods phd c: yeah . phd a: and it 's not not enough to to have this kind of neat things . phd c: mm - hmm . phd f: mm - hmm . phd c: yeah . phd a: but phd f: and here no , well . phd a: yeah . so probably we 'll have to use , like , long f long frames . mm - hmm . phd c: mm - hmm . grad e: hmm . phd c: oh . professor b: mmm . phd c: that 's interesting . professor b: yeah , maybe . well , i mean it looks better , but , i mean , the thing is if if , uh if you 're actually asking you know , if you actually j uh , need to do place along an fft , it may be it may be pushing things . phd a: yeah . professor b: and and , uh phd c: would you would you wan na do this kind of , uh , difference thing after you do spectral subtraction ? phd a: uh , maybe . phd f: no . maybe we can do that . phd a: mmm . professor b: hmm . the spectral subtraction is being done at what level ? is it being done at the level of fft bins or at the level of , uh , mel spectrum or something ? phd a: um , i guess it depends . professor b: i mean , how are they doing it ? phd a: how they 're doing it ? yeah . um , i guess ericsson is on the , um , filter bank , phd f: fft . filter bank , phd a: no ? it 's on the filter bank , phd f: yeah . phd a: so . so , yeah , probably i i it yeah . professor b: so in that case , it might not make much difference at all . phd c: seems like you 'd wan na do it on the fft bins . professor b: maybe . i mean , certainly it 'd be better . phd c: i i mean , if you were gon na uh , for for this purpose , that is . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . ok . phd a: mmm . professor b: what else ? phd a: uh . yeah , that 's all . so we 'll perhaps try to convince ogi people to use the new the new filters and yeah . professor b: ok . uh , has has anything happened yet on this business of having some sort of standard , uh , source , phd a: uh , not yet professor b: or ? phd a: but i wi i will call them and professor b: ok . phd a: now they are i think they have more time because they have this well , eurospeech deadline is over phd c: when is the next , um , aurora deadline ? phd a: and it 's , um , in june . yeah . phd c: june . professor b: early june , late june , middle june ? phd a: i do n't know w professor b: hmm . grad e: hmm . professor b: ok . um , and he 's been doing all the talking but but these he 's he 's , uh phd f: yeah . professor b: this is this by the way a bad thing . we 're trying to get , um , m more female voices in this record as well . so . make sur make sure carmen talks as well . uh , but has he pretty much been talking about what you 're doing also , and ? phd f: oh , i i am doing this . professor b: yes . phd f: yeah , yeah . i do n't know . i 'm sorry , but i think that for the recognizer for the meeting recorder that it 's better that i do n't speak . professor b: yeah , well . phd f: because professor b: you know , uh , we 'll get we 'll get to , uh , spanish voices sometime , and we do we want to recognize , uh , you too . phd f: after the after , uh , the result for the ti - digits on the meeting record there will be foreigns people . phd a: yeah , but professor b: oh , no . phd c: y professor b: we like we we 're we 're w we are we 're in the , uh , bourlard - hermansky - morgan , uh , frame of mind . yeah , we like high error rates . it 's phd a: yeah . professor b: that way there 's lots of work to do . so it 's uh , anything to talk about ? grad d: n um , not not not much is new . so when i talked about what i 'm planning to do last time , i said i was , um , going to use avendano 's method of , um , using a transformation , um , to map from long analysis frames which are used for removing reverberation to short analysis frames for feature calculation . he has a trick for doing that involving viewing the dft as a matrix . um , but , uh , um , i decided not to do that after all because i i realized to use it i 'd need to have these short analysis frames get plugged directly into the feature computation somehow professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: and right now i think our feature computation is set to up to , um , take , um , audio as input , in general . so i decided that i i 'll do the reverberation removal on the long analysis windows and then just re - synthesize audio and then send that . professor b: this is in order to use the sri system or something . right ? grad d: um , or or even if i 'm using our system , i was thinking it might be easier to just re - synthesize the audio , professor b: yeah ? grad d: because then i could just feacalc as is and i would n't have to change the code . professor b: oh , ok . yeah . i mean , it 's um , certainly in a short short - term this just sounds easier . grad d: uh - huh . professor b: yeah . i mean , longer - term if it 's if it turns out to be useful , one one might want to do something else , grad d: right . that 's true . professor b: but uh , uh , i mean , in in other words , you you may be putting other kinds of errors in from the re - synthesis process . grad d: but e u from the re - synthesis ? um , professor b: yeah . grad d: o - ok . i do n't know anything about re - synthesis . uh , how likely do you think that is ? professor b: uh , it depends what you what you do . i mean , it 's it 's it 's , uh , um do n't know . but anyway it sounds like a reasonable way to go for a for an initial thing , and we can look at at exactly what you end up doing and and then figure out if there 's some something that could be be hurt by the end part of the process . grad d: ok . professor b: ok . so that 's that was it , huh ? grad d: that yeah , e that 's it , that 's it . professor b: ok . ok . grad d: uh - huh . professor b: um , anything to add ? grad e: um . well , i 've been continuing reading . i went off on a little tangent this past week , um , looking at , uh , uh , modulation s spectrum stuff , um , and and learning a bit about what what , um what it is , and , uh , the importance of it in speech recognition . and i found some some , uh , neat papers , um , historical papers from , um , kanedera , hermansky , and arai . professor b: yeah . grad e: and they they did a lot of experiments where th where , um , they take speech and , um , e they modify the , uh they they they measure the relative importance of having different , um , portions of the modulation spectrum intact . professor b: yeah . grad e: and they find that the the spectrum between one and sixteen hertz in the modulation is , uh is im important for speech recognition . professor b: sure . i mean , this sort of goes back to earlier stuff by drullman . grad e: um . professor b: and and , uh , the the msg features were sort of built up with this notion grad e: yeah . right . professor b: but , i guess , i thought you had brought this up in the context of , um , targets somehow . grad e: right . professor b: but i m grad e: um professor b: i it 's not i mean , they 're sort of not in the same kind of category as , say , a phonetic target or a syllabic target grad e: mmm . mm - hmm . professor b: or a grad e: um , i was thinking more like using them as as the inputs to to the detectors . professor b: or a feature or something . oh , i see . well , that 's sort of what msg does . grad e: yeah . yeah . professor b: right ? so it 's grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: but but , uh grad e: s professor b: yeah . grad e: yeah . professor b: anyway , we 'll talk more about it later . grad e: ok . professor b: yeah . grad e: we can talk more about it later . professor b: yeah . yeah . grad e: yeah . professor b: so maybe , le phd c: should we do digits ? professor b: let 's do digits . let you you start . grad d: oh , ok . grad e: l fifty . phd a: right .

the team thought that it was not fair to get a good vad since there were n't enough baseline features . an mfcc would have been more appropriate , but optimizing for one meant lower scores on the other . in general , the model was better now due to lower latencies .