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RG-50.030.0004

Were you under the skirts?

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RG-50.030.0004

Well sort of. The skirts were sort of wrapped slightly around us, and they marched us to the railroad tracks and they shoved us onto trains and the trains left.

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RG-50.030.0004

Can we go back for a moment?

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RG-50.030.0004

Sure.

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RG-50.030.0004

Were you wounded?

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RG-50.030.0004

Yes. I had a wound -- at that particular time I had one wound in the back, one bullet wound in the back. Later on I got other wounds. I have about one, two -- I have seven wounds, seven bullet wounds. That was only one in the back that sort of grazed my back.

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RG-50.030.0004

Sideways?

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RG-50.030.0004

Must have been sideways, I don't know.

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RG-50.030.0004

When you walked into the situation and you saw the guns, was there any time for something to go through your head or --?

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RG-50.030.0004

There was no time. There was no time and there were people sort of falling all over you. People were yelling and trying to run and you know how it is when people try to run and they don't know in which direction because no matter where they looked they were either standing with rifles or there were machine guns set up, so there was no place to run really. No, I don't remember realizing what was happening. All I knew was that I was tumbling into the pit with everybody else. I didn't really realize what else I could do.

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RG-50.030.0004

When you touched this blood --?

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RG-50.030.0004

I didn't know if it was mine or if 1t was somebody elses. When you are hit by a bullet it doesn't hurt right away, but when it gets cold it gets stiff and it hurts, so my back was bothering me and obviously when they were trying to take my shirt off when I got back to the barracks, 1t was sticking to my back. So, I must have had some kind of a bullet wound in the back because I remember it stinging by then I had learned not to yell or cry about anything. You learn very fast that there's no point in complaining, really. So, I think I had one of the wounds there, it happened to me in the back.

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RG-50.030.0004

Did you explain when the women asked you, did you explain what you saw?

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RG-50.030.0004

Yes. I don't think anybody believed me about the dog. I don't think they believed me. They looked at me in such a peculiar way and one of the women said well I know they have a dog, and I know they walk around with that dog, so there was a dog and I could not have invented him because I don't think I was familiar with German shepherds and I described the dogs. Except I described him but he had green eyes. How can he have green eyes? I saw green eyes. I don't think a dog has green eyes, really, but I described you know adequately so they that they thought maybe I did see a dog but they couldn't believe that the dog walked right past me and didn't start barking or tearing me a apart. That was the point, because I think that's what they were trained for. That was sort of a bizarre episode, that I just stopped talking about it. I decided I'm not going to -- but it stuck with me really, it really did stick with me that bizarre episode with the dog.

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RG-50.030.0004

Were you very hungry in this place?

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RG-50.030.0004

I very often was very hungry, but what I remember most is thirst, always being thirsty and never having enough to drink. I think at one point I sort of lost my appetite for food except when you know you have a grumbling stomach, but I didn't know really. I was scared. I was always full of fear and hunger doesn't always assert itself when you're full of fear. Yes, I remember times that I was hungry, but not so much hungry as full of fear and very thirsty always. There was never enough to drink.

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RG-50.030.0004

Did the women -- I don't know if you remember, did they share their food with you?

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RG-50.030.0004

You mean after this? Oh, yes. They did. They would always bring back a piece of bread or something. They couldn't bring back soup or something because they would have seen them, but they always managed to put a piece of bread in their pocket to bring back a piece of bread for us or something that could be carried unobtrusively. You know, they couldn't opening carry something because it would have given it away.

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RG-50.030.0004

When were you fed, at night?

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RG-50.030.0004

Yes.

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RG-50.030.0004

Was there some soup?

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RG-50.030.0004

There was some soup or potatoes or something like that or cabbage. There was very often cabbage and potatoes cooked together in sort of a soupy stuff which they handed out and a piece of bread.

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RG-50.030.0004

Did the women there also give you some of what they were given?

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RG-50.030.0004

Oh, you mean when we were still in the open? When we were still in the open they gave us some too. After that supposedly there weren't supposed to be any children or any idle mouths to feed so from then on, no. But before that carnage, I don't know how else to call it, they did give us some food too, maybe not as much as the women, but we didn't need as much really. Mostly what I remember is cabbage and potatoes, you know, cooked with some water.

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RG-50.030.0004

But in spite of your fear, you were thinking very clearly where to go and what do to?

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RG-50.030.0004

Oh, yes, definitely. I had to get out of that pit, that I knew. I had to wait until it was dark because I didn't feel too comfortable being out in the daylight uncovered. By then I had already learned that I couldn't be anywhere where I was seen. I did have the instinct to go back to the barrack where I had been with my stepmother. That I did. I always had sort of a very good sense of direction, even in the forest, how to navigate my way and I learned very quickly how to navigate my way through the forest.

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RG-50.030.0004

Was your stepmother there in the camp?

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RG-50.030.0004

Yes.

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RG-50.030.0004

She had gone out and your aunt?

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RG-50.030.0004

My aunt was killed with the two girls on that afternoon. She and my two cousins were killed on that afternoon, and I survived. Don't ask my why. It's a lottery definitely, yes, it really is.

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RG-50.030.0004

Okay, so now they take you out of the camp for transport.

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RG-50.030.0004

We went sort of shoved into a railroad cars and what I remember -- that's a terrible thing. I really want to forget that because it was very crowded. I don't know how many cars they had and how many people. I don't even know where they got all those people. I didn't think there was that many people. It was very crowded and they really shoved us in. It was very hot and it stank and it was night, you know, and I was absolutely petrified. I was petrified then. When the car stopped and they let us out, there were like search lights and again I could hear the Germans. I could hear German spoken and dogs barking, lots of dogs barking, and they kept on pushing us, quick, quick ; they kept on really pushing us to this side and to that side. I was so petrified that I don't remember the route that we took from the car. All I know is that we ended up in another barrack somewhere, but I do remember towers with guards just a little bit off the ground. The towers just high enough for them to be able to see what was going on and the entrance to the barracks and everywhere else. We ended up in that barrack. That other little girl was there too, and my stepmother and her mother. And then there was a third little girl in the barrack whom I didn't know and her mother and plus assorted other women. This was the women's camp, and again every morning they would open up the gates to get the women out into the fields, out in the working fields, and we three children were taken to a big shed which had a lot of carriages or not carriages but carts really, farming carts and such and we three girls were told to stay there and not to move from there the whole day until the women came back into the camp, and we did usually. I don't know for sure, but my guess 1s that all three of these women, my step mother and the two others were sort of the favorites of the guards very quickly became the favorite because they got privileges and I think the guard who usually patrolled that particular barrack knew that there were three children in there, but they didn't harm us. We just sort of got used to the routine. At night they would bring us into the barrack. The women usually brought some food back for us. They went somewhere else to eat. I don't know where. I never saw the place. And very early in the morning before they marched out the three of us would just sort of go in the shade, there was path along the barrack was here and there was a path here and we would go along the path to the shed, and we had to just run across another path and into the shed and we felt safe. One morning the guard appeared at the door and told the women to walk out, and she took one of the little girls by the hand and said you come with me and he told the two of us, me and the other girl, you stay here, don't come with me. By then we didn't want to stay in the barrack, we thought maybe he was trying to save her and leave us there. So, we kept on following him and he kept on saying go back, go back. He was getting angry with us so we sort of crept after him along the barrack and he walked out with that little girl to that path that was between the barrack and the shed and there was a cot and a body was lying on that cot. It was the other little girl's mother and he took out a gun and he shot the mother and he shot the little girl. So, the two of us really very quickly ran back to the barrack. We realized -- we didn't know what had happened, but that night when the women came back, one of the women was the sister of the woman who had been killed with her little girl and she was crying. She had red eyes, and when she walked out the others were saying that her sister had small pox or something and they didn't want the whole camp or something contagious. I think it was small pox, because I remember noticing that the little girl had some pimples, so I figured it must be something like that, so they killed both of them to make sure that the rest of the camp didn't get infected. Why I don't know, you wonder why. But, from then on, it became even more threatening to be there, you know. We had sort of gotten used to a little bit to the routine but 1t became very threatening. And I was sort of turning more and more inward and to myself. I spoke very little. Inever complained. From then on I was just sort of living full of fear. I remember waking up a couple of nights and seeing there was a candle and they had put a blanket over the door so that it wouldn't show through and they were digging the hole, the women under one of the walls. And my step mother walked over very angrily told me turn to the wall and don't look. You haven't seen anything. That's all she had to say to me, believe me, I didn't see a thing. What I realized later on was they were digging a hole to go out from under the barrack and since we were surrounded by fields there too, came a night when they woke us up, the two little girls, and the two mothers, my step mother and she and we all made our way under the holes and we were out in the fields and we started running and we walked all night long. So, from then on, the routine was, we walked at night and we slept during the day in the wooded area. Food was not often. Sometimes we would pick up apples so it must have been June, the late summer, it must have been the late summer because I remember also a lot of stubble on the ground where we walked which meant they must have cut the crops already. Sometimes we would steal something if something was to be stolen and once I remember a peasant, a woman caught us while we were sleeping and the two women started talking to her and asking her for food and they offered her a ring. One of the women had a ring and they offered her a ring and then she didn't come back and we were sure she was going to go and get the Germans or somebody and we were ready to leave and then she came back with some bread and cold boiled potatoes. They never tasted so good, so we did get some food. This whole trek was taking place because my step mother had a brother who was in the forest and she was obviously trying to join him so I don't remember chronologically how long that journey took, but eventually we did meet up with that group in the forest, which was a very motley group. What I remember best was that her brother was very angry that she had a child in tow and it didn't pay to have children around and he tried various means to detach me of the group and dispose of me, but by then I had become very watchful and very clever about avoiding him.

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RG-50.030.0004

You mean literally trying to kill you?

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RG-50.030.0004

Oh, yes, oh he would have definitely disposed of me. I knew it. I knew it, so I tried never to be left alone with him anywhere and with a group I knew I was a little safer because he couldn't very well start shooting into the group. That became my life for a while living in the forest it was full of escaped Jews from various camps. Incidently later I thought that this camp was Treblinka before they installed the crematorium because the spot was right. Reading in books and I didn't know it until there was a gathering of Holocaust survivors here in Washington, quite a few years ago, ten years ago, longer than that and there was all kinds of books which Jim picked up, my husband, and reading up on it sure enough Treblinka was to begin with a women's work camp, and then they installed the crematorium, so we must have left the camp, escaped it just before it became really locked up and they started disposing of everybody. So, we must have just come out, because the area was right, and it was a fairly large women's camp. I remember that the gatherings of women there. It was a large camp, so it must have been Treblinka. It wasn't just another camp like the first one we were at. So, there we were in the forest and during the summer it was perfectly okay, and there was quite a motley crew in the forest. They were escaped people from the Russian Army deserters, there were Poles in it, women, children, lots of young women all of them carrying around guns, and armed, which was very strange. I don't know where they got their guns really and several children. We lived in the forest and at night they went to raid the farms and they brought food back, so we did have some food in those places really. Never enough, never enough food and water was always a problem because the Germans were very often hunting us and if they had any suspicion if there was a group in the area they would poison the waters. So, it was very-- we were told not to drink anyway. You had to be very cautious where you got your water. The winter was very rough and they just kept on hunting the groups. You know you never knew when you were going to be denounced by some people in the area who had been robbed of food or such, and then set upon by the Germans, or the Poles more like it. There were more Poles than Germans at this point who were doing the hunting. They were the Poles who were in uniforms, in those black uniforms. On one of those hunts they kept on driving us like you would hear shots. You would run in a certain area and they drove us out in a clearing and when we got out in a clearing we realized that they had machine guns set up on three sides of the clearing. Then they just opened fire and everybody war running back and forth and back and forth and on that particular hunt my step mother was hit and died. I saw her die. I literally saw her die. For some reason I escaped again. There weren't too many left of us. Again, we retreated towards the forest and we stayed put until it was dark, completely dark. Usually their favorite time of hunting was towards the end of the day. Then we sort of congregated together. We couldn't drink because they poisoned the water. That's when I was really wounded because I had several bullet wounds from that and so did the other little girl. The other little girl was with us still. I don't remember any other children left except her and me. Then they decided, the people who were left, that they had to -- we couldn't stay in the forest the way we were. We were going to die, so they took both children to different villages and all I remember is that they brought out a peasant, mine was Polish speaking, I don't know what the other one was because I don't know where they took her because some of the villages were Ukrainian speaking villages and some of them were Polish speaking villages. They told him that he had to take me in and take care of me and if anything happened to me they would lock him and his family in house and burn the whole house down. And they did that. They used to do that, so he knew they weren't bluffing. So, he carried me home and they put me on top of the bread oven. They would have a bread oven and then around the corner on top there was a little knish like and you could climb into the knish and it was warm. And I must have been very sick because I remember very little. I remember waking up and them feeding me some water. I must have run a very high fever and then they told me at night they would put me there and then they said they couldn't keep me there during the day because they had two boys or three boys even and the neighbors would sometime come in, although not often. There was very little traffic between the houses and their house was sort of at the edge of the village. I guess that's one of the reasons they picked that house. So, they told me he was going to dig a hole in the storage room. He was going to lift a couple of planks and dig a hole and I would have to be there during the day and then at night they would come and get me and put me on top of that oven to warm me up again. That whole winter I remember that constant going back and forth between that little hole where I was just sort of reclining. It was just barely big enough to recline in and at night being taken out. I was completely stiff, and put on top of that oven to thaw out. It was pretty cold that place. I couldn't make any noise either. I wasn't supposed to make noise because if anybody came around the house they might hear if any noises were coming out of there, so I kept very quiet. I was sick a lot of the time. I probably was delirious. I don't know, but quiet, in a quiet way. Then, the spring came and the peasants said to me you know during the spring the neighbors come and go and everybody 1s out in the field and if they know you are here they could easily tell that to somebody. So, they talked it over it with me. They were good people, you know. They really were good people because they really sort of nursed me and they said what I should do is he was going to bring me part way to the next village and then I should walk to the next village. They were going to provide me with some shoes and clothes. I didn't have any shoes or clothes by then. I don't know what happened. I suppose they must have cut off my shoe because I had -- and I was going to have some shoes from the boys and they would give me some clothes. His wife was making me some clothes, and I was going to tell them that I came from that village, from the Polish village and I needed to hire myself out because my family was too poor and could they take me in as a cow hand. That's what happened. I walked to the next village, and they hired me as a cow hand. So, from then, what I remember is spending a lot of time in the fields with the herd, driving the herd in the morning and staying in the field and I was told very precisely which fields they were to graze when because they didn't want them to just ruin the field so you had to drive your cattle to one field, let it graze a certain amount of time and when the sun was at a certain point you drove your cattle to another field and come back at night and they attempted to teach me how to milk the cows which I wasn't too successful at the beginning, but I learned eventually, and assorted chores around the farm, which I did and I stayed on that farm in that Ukrainian speaking village until the war was over. I remember the Russians coming and being in the village. Actually the villages were just as happy to get rid of them. By then the Germans never put food there because they were somewhere else already so you hardly ever saw any Germans. Nobody was doing any hunting there. They were such remote villages. There was no electricity, no sewers, no water, nothing like that there, so they didn't bother. The safety lay in that they were so remote, those villages. I remember the Russians coming through, the Russians soldiers being stationed right outside the village and some of the houses. I remember the guns going and I was told that that's when they had the siege of Warsaw. You could here the guns, all through the country almost. They were those big that the Russians drove in. When they were all gone, that peasant came back and said now you can come back and live with us. So, I went back to the first village and they were pretty much decided that they were going to keep me. They had boys and she wanted a girl. She wanted to teach a girl how to sew. She needed somebody to help her how to make all the clothes and to spin, and actually I had learned how to spin in the other village during the winter. I remember one winter when I was taught how to spin and how to sew also and how to weave. They were completely self sufficient in those villages. They made all their clothes, all their food, everything. So, I was with this Polish family and for all I knew that's where I was going to stay for the rest of my life.

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RG-50.030.0004

I want to go back to the camp just before the escape. You had said that you were not so close with your step mother, but clearly she seemed to have wanted to take you with her.

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RG-50.030.0004

I'm not sure really. She was very young. I think that one of the reasons she took me with her was because the women in that barrack chose the women with the children to escape. I think that was her ticket out, really. I'm not sure she would have been one of the ones who would have been chosen to escape if it hadn't been that she had a child with her. So, in a way, you know, we were mutually what's the word, necessary to each other. So, that's why probably she took me with her.

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RG-50.030.0004

But she also knew that her brother was in the forest?

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RG-50.030.0004

Yes. I don't know how she knew it. I don't know how she knew it. I have no idea how the information came to her but she knew he was there and we definitely had a destination when we were going. We weren't just ambling around the countryside. They tried to walk in a certain direction. Of course they didn't have maps or anything like that, but my guess was they knew their general direction which they wanted to walk. And my guess is they might have missed the group a couple of times and then finally met up with the group.

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RG-50.030.0004

Now, you said her brother wanted to kill you?

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RG-50.030.0004

Yes.

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RG-50.030.0004

But there were other children in the group also. Do you think he didn't want any children there at all or was there something about your presence with his sister?

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RG-50.030.0004

I think it was my presence because I was a burden to him and his sister. You know, ina group like that you never knew how long you were going to stay with a group and those groups were forming and reforming all the time. You might leave one group. There were many of those groups roaming around the countryside and the forest and he didn't know how long he was going to stay with the group and he obviously was going to take his sister and why did he need a child at that point. I remember them as being very young, both of them. So, I don't bear grudges. I understand it. A child was a burden.

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RG-50.030.0004

Was this a resistance group as far as you could tell?

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RG-50.030.0004

Yes, indeed, some of them were resistance because I remember they would go off on missions at night to mines somewhere and to blow up certain point so they were a resistance, definitely. They were part of the resistance group.

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RG-50.030.0004

Did you have any particular job in this group, any kind of responsibility as a child?

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RG-50.030.0004

I don't think I had a responsibility, but I seemed to acquired a peculiar what do you call it, a peculiar calling. I seem to have an extra sense of when we were going to have the Germans descend on us in a hunt and I seemed to dream about my mother the night before. I have talked about it to some people. It's a ridiculous thing to say that I had a premonition or something but some people interpret it as I probably I had extra good hearing and I could hear maybe hooves of horses or vehicles rolling somewhere and I could feel it because we all slept on the ground obviously. That probably would trigger a dream where I was in danger and I would always wake up yelling and if I woke up yelling, everybody packed camp. So, I sort of became the mascot in a way. You know people who are in danger, whose lives are in danger are extremely superstitious and anything that helps them stay alive they will clutch at. That wasn't as far fetched as other things when you're trying to stay alive and you really don't know where your next salvation will come with. Tape #2

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RG-50.030.0004

Esthy, you were explaining about this dream and your prophetic --?

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RG-50.030.0004

Powers. I don't really remember it that accurately, but I think the first time when I woke up, the dream, when I woke up I was yelling because I was frightened and I think the dream was, my mother, whom I knew was dead was chasing me and I didn't want her to catch me, and I was running. You know how you run in your dream and you're sort of slowed down, and then I realized that I had a scarf, so I took the scarf and I let it float behind me like a sail and I was sort of jumping from stone to stone and floating away while my mother was trying to catch me. I was running faster and faster and I felt myself falling, and that's when I would wake up yelling. That happened to me the first time in the camp as far as I can recall. Of course someone was near me trying to put a hand on my mount to prevent me from yelling, and then everything around the camp was talked about and known.

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RG-50.030.0004

Wait one second.

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RG-50.030.0004

So, they must have discussed it and they asked me what my dream was. Somebody came up to ask me. There was always a leader in a camp, you know, somebody was always a person whom they looked up to this was a man and he came to ask me what I had dreamt and I told him and he sort of listened and didn't say anything and then the next time it happened the woman woke me up, but this time she wasn't trying to stifle my yells. She just woke me up and I stopped screaming and she went and got the man and he came back and he asked me, and I told him it was the same dream. So, he left, and very shortly after the order was given to break camp. Usually an order would come and everyone would start packing up their immediate belongings and we started moving. And from then on, ovariotomy I had the dream, we packed camp and we moved, so I figured it must have something to do with my dream. Somebody once asked me whether I wasn't tempted to just sort of give false signals. And I said absolutely not, believe me. I wasn't about to test anybody to give false signals because it could have been disastrous and then where would I have been. I had to depend on the good will of others to survive and this was no way of doing it, so you didn't give false signals.

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RG-50.030.0004

Did this give you a different place in the group?

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RG-50.030.0004

Yes. I felt safer. I felt much safer. I felt for instance very often at night we went on long marches when we were changing camps and from then on there was always somebody if I was lagging too far behind, somebody would pick me up for a while, sort of carry me around for awhile, carry me on, and then let me down. Very often before I was afraid I was going to be left behind and from then on I sort of sensed that I wasn't going to be left behind. I was going to be carried along if I faltered and if I stayed too far behind, which happened some times. It wasn't intentional, but I was sometimes so exhausted and my feet hurt that I just couldn't walk anymore and I would fall behind, so it was sort of a helping hand that would come along and sometimes even two people would relay themselves and carry me for a little while. So, my status definitely did change from then on.

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RG-50.030.0004

What you didn't describe was how they connected your dream with a raid?

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RG-50.030.0004

Well, the next day there was a raid. There was a raid after the first dream, and so the next time they obviously talked to each other and they decided to pack up camp and sure enough there had been a raid on that camp, because they sent back somebody and they found that the water had been poisoned. They got to test the water from time to time on a dog or an animal they would test it. There was no other way of testing the water. They decided there must have been a raid too because the water was poisoned. So, from then on I became the lightening rod. Is that the word for it? If I had the dream they would pack up camp and go. As I mentioned that before when I checked with somebody the explanation that makes the most sense to me is that I must have had very good hearing, which I did. I had excellent hearing and eyesight too, that I must have heard some vibrations on the ground. Horses hooves or carriages being rolled along and that might have set me off that there was danger coming. When you live with danger, even when you're very young, you often develop an extra sense about when danger is coming and where it's coming from. You really do, so that must have been my sense.

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RG-50.030.0004

What about clothes in this group. What were you wearing?

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RG-50.030.0004

Rags, whatever you could to keep warm. Feet were usually -- shoes didn't last very long or if they got wet they got too hard and you couldn't wear them so whatever you had you would wrap around your feet particularly if you had to march around at night because you were going through all kinds of terrain, like fields that had been harvested and where the stalks are very hard to the soles of the feet. Or pebbles or things like that, so you did the best you could. You stole clothes. Very often they steal food, they stole clothes too. It was very hard to keep warm during the winter. During the summer you didn't care really what you wore, but during the winter it was very hard to keep warm. I don't remember ever washing now that I think of it. We must have washed sometimes, but I don't remember that. I guess it wasn't very important.

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RG-50.030.0004

Do you remember getting thinner and thinner?

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RG-50.030.0004

I don't remember noticing. Probably I did. Probably I was never very fat, but I don't remember noticing that I got thinner. No, I never really looked at myself. You never looked at yourself naked, well maybe I really thought of it I would have looked at the arms, but you tried to keep warm, you know, you try to keep bundled up. You don't notice whether you're getting thinner or not.

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RG-50.030.0004

Was there lice because people weren't clean?

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RG-50.030.0004

Yes, oh yes, absolutely lice. I'm sure we were all covered with lice. I remember having lice when I came to France. They had to shave my head. They shaved my head completely because I had lice. I have a funny story to tell you about my shaved head but maybe I will do that later so that we do it chronologically. Any other questions about that, about the forest.

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RG-50.030.0004

When you were caught and they were machine gunning you and you were shot, where were you shot?

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RG-50.030.0004

I have four wounds on my left leg, two bullets. One entered at a peculiar angle. One went through the leg and came out the back. One bullet went into my right breast and came out under my arm and that one must have touched a little bit long because I was spitting blood for a long time, so it must have touched the lung slightly.

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RG-50.030.0004

But you were nonetheless able to run and escape this and they didn't chase you?

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RG-50.030.0004

No, because they were further away behind the machine guns. So they weren't chasing because they would have been caught in the machine guns. They weren't chasing. They were just sitting behind the machine guns really. They weren't chasing you.

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RG-50.030.0004

Nobody had anything to help you with the wounds?

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RG-50.030.0004

No, no. As a matter of fact, I think they probably must have just put some rags on my legs and my other ones so there wouldn't be a trail of blood when they carried me to the edge of the forest and they had the farmer pick me up. They must have bandaged it up with rags because it would have been too dangerous to have a trail of blood I suppose. When you get hit with bullets, you don't feel, unless it hits a bone or something like that, it takes a while for the wound to stiffen up and hurt really. At the beginning it doesn't hurt.

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Do you have any idea about how many people were in the group prior to this machine gunning episode and then how many after?

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It's difficult for me to tell because the group was -- there were people coming and going all the time, new arrivals, people who departed and went outside, and I really didn't have any sense of counting either. It was a large camp. There were lots of people, but how many I couldn't tell, no.

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But obviously afterwards there were enough people that this farmer would take very seriously this threat?

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Yes. Well, they never knew because usually they would only send two or three people on any raid or on any mission. You know, they wouldn't send too many people ever so he had no idea how many survivors there were there.

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Were you frightened with this farmer at first?

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I was too sick to be frightened. By then I was really sick. I must have gone into delirious state because I remember very little. I just remember them feeding me something to drink or a little bit of food, some soup, some potato soup or something. I couldn't even eat. I don't remember being frightened because I was beyond that. I thought I was truly dying. No. I wasn't frightened by the peasants.

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How long were you with this particular family before you went --?

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Throughout the winter. I was there through the winter until that following spring when it became dangerous, when they were going to go out into the fields and when the neighbors were going to start dropping in and the boys were going to be in and out, it became too dangerous for me to stay there, so one evening, one night, he took me halfway and then he told me to stay in the fields until day and during the day to walk the rest of the way to the village and then --.

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But you felt kindness from these people?

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Yes. I didn't feel that they meant me harm, and I had developed a sense already who meant me harm, but they didn't, so I felt comfortable with them.

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And the boys?

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They were wild. They were wild, the boys, but when I left the boys had never seen me, remember. I was hidden during the day and I slept at night outside and before day break he would come and put me back in the hole so those boys never saw me until I actually came back from the other village after the war was over. They never saw me the boys, but I could hear them, you know, and they were wild boys.

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Now was it common for young children to go from village to village this way?

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Yes. Sometimes you would have a farm which was particularly impoverished where they couldn't feed all the people that they had in their family and it was quite common for the youngsters to go an hire themselves out as cow herdsmen, whatever you want to call it, and for the older ones to hire themselves out as laborers, so that was not at all uncommon, no. Nobody thought twice about it. They told me what name, by what name I was called, and they told me the end name, which I have forgotten since, that I was to tell the people who hired me that I came from that farm, which was their name so it would have been if they wanted to inquire it would have been -- but they never did anyhow because the two villages the Ukrainians never talked to the Polish and the Polish never talked to the Ukrainians, so we were pretty safe that nobody was going to go in to inquire.

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Did they give you a picture or anything to take with you?

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No, no, they didn't give me a picture. I just went and but he used to drop in from time to time to come and see me so they knew that I had somebody to whom I was attached and it was obviously a peasant. You know, it was obviously a Polish peasant so they never thought twice about it. Then when the war was over, he came back for me and he said he wanted, would I like to come back and live with his family and I said, "oh" and he said well, mother and I -- I think that's how he called her -- mother and I talked about it and we have the sons but we need a girl. Would you like to be the girl and I said sure, so I went back with him. She taught me how to sew. She liked very much my sewing. I was a good seamstress, so they were quite pleased with that.

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Were you pleased to go there?

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Oh, yes, I was very interested in what was going on in the farm. I was fascinated by the seasonal business of the sewing and then the crops were growing and the planting of potatoes and the vegetables and taking care of the livestock and things like that. I thought it was very fascinating. I was fascinated also by the fact that they did everything themselves. Like they made their clothes and they built everything and when it came to the fall they would all slaughter together. They came to help if they slaughtered a pig or a calf and then what they did with the meat and how they kept if for the winter. I thought it was very fascinating, so I stayed there and I thought that was going to be my life. I was still going to be -- obviously my job was going to do a lot of sewing and weaving because I seemed to have a knack for that. That was going to be my worth. It beat the camp, let me tell you, so I had no complaints about that, plus the outdoors. I always loved the outdoors, being out in the open, so that pleased me very much, too.

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In the Ukrainian village were you still worried because the war was going on but by then did you have a sense that you were pretty safe?

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I was worried. I wasn't sure. I was worried, and life was hard in that Ukrainian village. They were violent people. I never had a chance to see what it was like in the Polish village before because I was always hidden but in the Ukrainian village they were very, very violent like for instance the farm I was on there was a mother and a son and the son when he got drunk he beat up his mother and he would beat up anybody and I learned how to run very fast because I made myself scarce. They beat up each other and they would get drunk periodically so it was violent.

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Were you ever beaten?

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No. He never caught me. When he was sober he was okay, and I was out in the fields most of the time and I always did what I was told to do so there wasn't really any reason but when he was drunk he could have easily beaten me up, but I was always very scarce. I could tell already when he was working himself up to a state of drunkenness where he was going to beat somebody.

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Did people talk about the war?

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Hardly ever. Mostly they talked about the daily work and what they were doing, and then while I was there on that farm he got married and that was an enormous event because at Polish wedding, literally it is a Polish wedding. It takes place a whole week of festivities when there's a Polish wedding. That was a lot of fun because everybody gets into the act. So, I was -- but he beat his wife too. It didn't take too long before he beat his wife. So, that was sort of interesting and that was a big event and ovariotomy a wedding takes places it's a big event in the village.

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How was your food intake at this point?

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I ate like the peasants did. We all ate together. In the morning there would be mashed potatoes and if we were lucky there would be a little bit of bacon that would have been fried and mixed into the mashed potatoes. IF there was a little bit of butter milk. The butter we never had because that was taken maybe once of twice a year and they took butter and eggs you know. They exchanged it, they bought it with other homes for necessities like plows and things like that, or seed. It was a very simple diet, but I don't remember being terrifically hungry. Bread was baked once a week and the bread was stored. There was always meat from the slaughter that took place in the fall, and it was hung in that storage room. Bacon and sausages, blood sausages. A lot of blood sausages, I liked it too, actually. During the summer there was alot of vegetables. Cabbage, the potatoes were delicious. Let's see what else, there was a white cheese which they made in the cloth from he butter milk which was very good, which mixed with potatoes. Everything was mixed with potatoes. Every once in a while a chicken died. I killed one once unintentionally. You had the chicken for the eggs so you often didn't kill the chickens but when a chicken wanted to sit on the eggs, the farmers lady would say to me just don't get in cold water for a little while, it will stop sitting on the eggs. Well I dunked it a little too much and the poor chicken just you know got too much of a dunking so we cooked the chicken of course. Somebody asked me once, didn't you kill another one. I don't think that would have went over too well if I had killed another chicken. So, every once in a while there was some foul. A lot of meat from the pig. They mostly killed pigs. They didn't kill calves because they needed them for the dairy products. I don't remember any lambs at all on that farm. There must have been farms that had lambs, but not in that particular village. It was mostly cattle, cows and poultry. Hens, and geese and such. They would make a goose for Christmas. They would do that. The food was skimpy but enough to keep you healthy. I think people now a days would approve of a diet like that. They grew a lot of fruit in that part of Poland. There were apple trees and pear trees, small ones, the fruit was never large, but it was quite good, and cherries, yes, that's the main fruits that they had.

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You weren't thirsty anymore?

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No, water, there was plenty of water there and everybody drank water. You drank something called , | believe, which was made from cabbage which had a slightly fermented tasted almost like apple cider only it was much sourer than apple cider. Lots of cabbage. We had lots of beats, lots of beats, lots of cabbage.

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Did you play at all?

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No. How could you play? No, there was no time. Except I could sit. I could sit in the fields when I was watching the herds and the playing consisted of watching what was going on in a stream or birds, watching birds. I loved to watch the birds. Playing, there was nothing to play with really. What would one play with.

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Were there other children?

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No. Because all the herds were kept separately and they would never graze together because each one of them had their plots and they would graze separately. They would not graze together. There were children in the village, but and sometimes they ran in a pack but I don't ever remember playing with them. I think part of the reason might have been that they thought I was Polish and they were Ukrainian, so that was already it created a distance. They did not like each other, so they pretty much let me alone.

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Did you think about particular thing when you were sitting there watching the herd, about what had happened to you?

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I kept on wondering about some of the people where they were. That, I kept on wondering, where are these people now. That's mainly what I was thinking about. Very often I was also very tired. You know you get up very early. You get up before the sun's up to get the herd out and when you come back and you have to do other chores, by the time you are -- during the day I was always tired. It took me a while to wake up. I would be out there, and it was cold also, and the June there was a slight frost even in the summer, on the grass. I spent a great deal of energy and thought on how to keep warm because I always seemed to be freezing in the morning. I never had the right clothes for that, and I never had the right shoes. So, I would always try to figure out how to keep warm, really.

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