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RG-50.549.05.0014

No, I don’t think so. I like Kentucky. I made my home here, and I feel like I’m a Kentuckian. ‘68, ve been living here off and on just about. Since ‘83 when I retired, I’ve been living here continuously since then.

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RG-50.549.05.0014

What do you like about it?

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RG-50.549.05.0014

The open space. I hate cities, people on top of each other. I like feeling the open space. I like the country. And I like the hunting and fishing, used to, I’m not much able anymore. I used to like to go out fishing and hunting. I like country music. I like Bluegrass. [Laughing.] Weird fora Jew, right? But anyway... I used to square dance. I’m just me. I’m not anybody else. That’s the things I like. I also like classic. I like operas. So.

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RG-50.549.05.0014

Did your family understand and respect your decision to marry...

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RG-50.549.05.0014

Marry my wife Helen? I never asked anybody. I never told them I’m marrying. I never ask permission. I married. Yeah, they accepted her. You can probably ask her about that, but I think they did. My dad loved her. My dad once he got to know her, he loved her and so did my step-mother, she also loved her. But I really didn’t, you know, I really didn’t care because it’s my choice. It’s my life and I have to live it, not them. If they didn’t like it, tough. That’s the way I felt about it. You know, I know a lot of people want to be loved and all that good stuff, but me, I just go with what I think is right. That’s what I do.

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RG-50.549.05.0014

I don’t think we mentioned on the tape, but your wife is Presbyterian? Is that what you said?

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RG-50.549.05.0014

I think she is. I dare not say that for sure. [Laughing.] I think, I’m pretty sure that’s what she is. She’s a Christian, anyway. But I think she is... not Lutheran. I’m pretty sure she’s a Presbyterian.

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RG-50.549.05.0014

And she practices? Goes to church and keeps up with that?

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RG-50.549.05.0014

She used to. She used to. When we go down to home, her home church, she goes to church on Sundays with her brother, who is a deacon in the church and all that. I don’t go with them, but she goes. And even when we first got married, she insisted I go with her. She won’t go, she by herself and blah, blah, blah. So for a couple times I went with her, just out of respect for her and her family. I didn’t feel comfortable though. And I told her, I said, “Look, that’s your faith, not mine. Not that I... you want to go, you go. I have no problems, you know. Ill gladly take you there and Ill gladly come and pick you up.” I tried to talk her into going here to church if she wanted to go. I'll gladly take her and there and bring her home gladly. Have no problem. Just don’t ask me to go. And so from now, she goes with her brother and stuff and it’s fine. Yeah, she believes, she’s got faith, which is fine with me. I have no quarrel with anybody who has faith. It’s just me and my views. I don’t push my views on anybody else. I respect everybody else’s faith as long as he practices and don’t expect somebody else to do it. You understand what I’m saying? Don’t force, don’t try to push iton me. Your faith is your faith and I respect you, you and your faith. But that’s your faith and don’t try to convert me or push me or get me to... you know. 36

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RG-50.549.05.0014

Was there ever a point where you felt it would be important to you to marry a Jewish woman? Where your Jewish identity was important enough to you that you felt like you had to do whatever you could to carry on the tradition?

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RG-50.549.05.0014

That’s a tough one. I guess at one time, at one time, yes. I guess at one time that occurred to me, okay. But... I shouldn’t say this, but anyway. While I was in the military in Israel, okay, we were on duty in the Jerusalem sector. It wasn’t a war, it was after. The Jordanians still had the old city. And to go to our post we had to go through a section of Jerusalem called Mea Shearim, which means “a hundred gates,” which was the ultra, ultra, Orthodox. And every time we had to go through there to switch reliefs, you know, we had to go through their section, their neighborhood. And on Sabbath we used to go through there with a vehicle. They used to stone us. Okay? So I looked at this and I said to myself, what’s the difference between the fanatics, the Jewish fanatics and the Ayatollah fanatics and all the other fanatics? There’s not one iota difference between them. They’re all zealots for whatever their faith is. So, I reverted back to what I told you initially. I believe in Israel, beneath the country, for no other reason is the Jewish people as a nation have a homeland. But for me, not for religious purposes. There’s, like I was there visiting my sister in, you know for Passover this year. And there’s such a conflict between the real religious and the non-religious there, you know. It’s crazy. You believe in your faith, practice it. Leave the other people alone. If they believe in... my sister is like me. She doesn’t bang her head against the wall. She believes in God and she holds basically all the Jewish holidays. She has to because it’s national holidays. But she’s not religious, goes to Temple all the time and all that stuff. Everybody has a right to live their own life the way they see it’s fit. And that’s what I believe in. I believe in everybody should do, if I respect you... my neighbor here is a very religious Baptist guy. A wonderful guy, wonderful friend. He’s been friend with me now for thirty years, since we’ve been here. We’ve been real close friends. We help each other. Anything I got he’s welcome to it and the same with him. Anything I need, if I needed help, he’d be there. I know he would. That’s how good of friends we are. And I respect him. He goes to church on Wednesdays. He goes to church on Sundays. He’s a church elder. I respect, I respect my brother-in-law, you know. It’s their faith, it’s fine. He never try to force, you know, push his stuff on me. That’s all I’m saying. Everybody should... and I believe if you have a faith, you should live it. Not go to church on Sunday and then cheat people on Monday. That’s my principle, that’s me. What you hear, what I say is what I mean. That’s always been my, I don’t say something that I don’t mean. If I tell you I was going to do something, you can put in the bank that I was going to do it. Except if I’m dead or laying there paralyzed where I can’t move. That’s what I’m going to do. If I promised to do something, I will do it. My word is my bond, basically. With me, you can shake hands with me, that’s just like a contract. If I say something I was going to do, I’m going to do it. And that’s all there 1s to it.

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RG-50.549.05.0014

I imagine that’s been very helpful to you in your career in the Army, because that’s important.

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RG-50.549.05.0014

Yes, yes, yes, it has. And I think I’ve been doing okay. I mean I have no problems. With my education background and with everything else, I guess the biggest asset I had 1s my dedication. I never been a good speller. I mean I’m not stupid, you know. Don’t think I am stupid. I’m not. You know, I might not have book learning to the max or get a certificate. But I made up for that by reading a lot and getting my education in the school of hard knocks, is what taught me. They 37 knew wherever the job needed to get done, as long as... turn me loose, tell me what you want done, give me the resources to do it with and I will get it done. That was me. [Laughing. |

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RG-50.549.05.0014

I’m going to ask you a question which I don’t know if it’s possible to answer, but PII ask it anyway and see what you think. You went through, I mean by the time you were a young child you had been through more atrocities than most people have even imagined and a terrible, terrible war and you went on to fight in two more wars and you didn’t have to do that. What do you think it was that...?

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RG-50.549.05.0014

Drove me?

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RG-50.549.05.0014

Yeah. Because I think so many people would have said, okay, I’ve done...

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RG-50.549.05.0014

Done my part?

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RG-50.549.05.0014

...’ve had my share in the wars of the world.

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RG-50.549.05.0014

I really couldn’t tell you. Something inner, something inside of me drove me and what it was I really couldn’t put it into words. If I would say any particular thing... I mean, you got to take each one on its own merit. You can’t just lump them all together. The war in Israel was a question of survival for the country. Because they closed the Suez Canal down. The lifeline for Israel, because the oil must come in. At the time there was no pipeline from the Red Sea, so all the oil was coming through the Suez Canal and it was delivered to Haifa to the refineries there, okay? So I didn’t make the decision to go to war. I was just a guy who was in the Reserves. I was already out of the Service in Israel. And we had a password and when you heard your password, you packed your bags and you reported to your unit. You had a specific location where you met. It was a civilian mobilization of the Army and you went and did what you were supposed to have done. I guess duty, if anything that drove me I guess was duty, responsibility, duty to what I believe was right. If there was anything to define. Now as far as ‘Nam, again, I didn’t... 1t was the United States Government decision to have, to go to the aid of the South Vietnamese. It wasn’t mine. I just, again it was duty. I was in the Service, I was a career soldier. Why would you be a career soldier? What, you’re going to run when the fighting starts? That’s what you train for all the time. To when the nation calls you, then you be there to do your... you know, and do your duty. And I hope anyway, that I was instrumental in saving some guy’s life, because with my experience, you know, I helped guide a lot of other guys to maybe, if I wasn’t there maybe somebody who had less experience would have got him killed. I’m not saying that would have been the case, but basically the professional guys in the Service, the non- commissioned officers, who had experience from the Korean War and then served in ‘Nam, they’re basically who trained the new guys, you know, and got them understand what a war is all about. How to survive. If anything I guess, duty is the main, main theme here, I think, from what you’re asking. Why I joined the Service, why I volunteered and stayed in the Service, that’s a different story. That had a lot to do with economy and all this stuff. Plus I had an opportunity to use my talent, my God-given talents that I had in the best way and advance my own career was in the military instead of the civilian life. But as far as when the war started, I think the main thing was duty. I mean duty to do your job. 38

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RG-50.549.05.0014

Were you in a combat unit while you were in ‘Nam? Or what were you?

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RG-50.549.05.0014

I was actually in the Signal outfit. The first time I was there I was in a place called Binh Dinh Mountain, which was a seven thousand foot mountain. And it was about, I guess twenty miles from Dalat. There was no road in or out. All our supplies had to come by air. We got re- supplied. And up there we had a relay, communication relay station to the North side, North Vietnam and part of South Vietnam, the north part and the south part. Plus we had Air Force up there, who were relaying instructions to the B-52 Bombers. So we’re sitting on a seven thousand foot mountain, and jungle all the way around us. Charlie was down there. We lived in bunkers. We got attacked by mortars, you know, and that kind of that stuff. We didn’t have no direct confrontation. Then from there I moved to a place called Phu Ti Valley’ which is not far from Nha Trang and there we were with the Korean Tiger Division. That is an Infantry Division, who were actually doing the combat. We were supporting them and going out to, when they went out for a sweep and destroy mission, we went out to provide them communication. So, we got shot at, but we weren’t involved in direct, you know, face-to-face, grunt job. The Koreans did that. So, but I was running Highway One between Ban Me Thuot, and every morning before you even got on there, you had to wait for them to clear all the mines out of there. So you never knew from one minute to the next when you’re going to get ona mine. And then the Vietnamese had this nice little trick, they would have this little hot pot, motorcycle-type tax1 cabs. And you would come around with your truck and they would pull out in front of you to slow you down, like ina curve. And you had to stop down to not run over them. And when you slowed down, they would ambush you and start shooting you, at you from the side. So what you define “combat”? In Vietnam there wasn’t any really... no, I wasn’t in the infantry unit. But in our base camp, we got attacked. We killed nine guys there and the stetchel (ph)charged us. One of them was our base barber that we killed. He was a Viet Cong. So you never knew who your, I mean who was your friend, who was your enemy. It was a weird kind of a war. There was no front line, like in Korea or Second World War. You didn’t know who was your friend or who was your foe, besides your own buddies in your own unit. Because all Vietnamese could have been Viet Cong. We had to go to this and we had to lock down our gas caps on our trucks. What they would do if you didn’t have the locks on them, they would take a hand grenade, put a rubber band around it, pull the pin, drop it inside your gas tank. Then the gas would eat away the rubber band, pop the thing and blow you to smithereens. So, you had to actually lock down with a lock, you had to lock your caps so they couldn’t stick nothing in there. Children were, they would hawk on the side of the road. They would try to sell you coke. Well if you’re stupid enough and you bought that coke, a lot of them had ground glass in it. If you drank that stuff it tore your guts up inside with shreds, slivers of glass. [Laughing.] So it was a different kind of war. It wasn’t the type of war where you could say who was a combat guy and who wasn’t. But no, I wasn’t... you know, I was on sweep and destroy missions with the Koreans. I took convoys from the seven thousand-foot mountain down to the air field about twenty miles away to pick up our rations and water, drinking water and all that stuff. We got ambushed periodically on the road and all that. Well, you call that combat? I would call that combat, but I wasn’t one of those guys that were crawling down those tunnels, tunnel rats or anything like that. I wasn’t in the Infantry outfit fighting. I got a good friend who works with me as a volunteer, he was Special Forces. He was on long range patrol. They went out to search Charlie. Now I would say he was in the trenches more than I was. I just reacted when Charlie attacked me. He went 3 Also called Rok Valley. 39 out looking for him, that’s different. But I did whatever was assigned me. I came to ‘Nam. I was supposed to go to a direct support unit. Not even get close to where the combat was. I was supposed to work on repairing vehicles and stuff. I got to Cam Ranh Bay and they said, “Eh, you are now, guess what. You are now a 6-3 Charlie. You are a motor sergeant. You are going up in the Central Highlands.” Instead of staying right there in Nha Trang. Believe me, two years in ‘Nam and I never seen Saigon. I don’t know what Saigon looks like. I never been there. All my time was up in the Central Highlands. I took two R&R tours, one I went to Australia and one I went to Hong Kong. Get away from it to relax.

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RG-50.549.05.0014

What was your rank when you retired from the Army?

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RG-50.549.05.0014

I was E-8, Master Sergeant. I graduated from Sergeant Major Academy. I was going to make E- 9, but I got sick and I got medically retired before I actually got promoted. But I actually retired as an E-8, graduated from Sergeant Major Academy. See it, my certificate. I mean the plaque? Conclusion of Interview 40

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