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Jeff Bezos at 30 - darrenlee
http://blog.darrenlee.net/2013/01/jeff-bezos-at-30/
======
darrenlee
Unlike Mark Zuckerberg who founded Facebook at an early age and found great
success straight from his dormitory room at Harvard, Jeff discovered Amazon
when he was 30. It wasn’t easy from the beginning as he made a cross-country
drive from New York to Seattle, writing up the Amazon business plan on the
way. In fact, he initially set up the company in his garage. It’s always
scrappy in the beginning. But most of us would forget that most great ideas,
inventions and respected companies in the world started out small and unknown.
| {
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Quantum at Microsoft Ignite 2019 - omiossec
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/qsharp/quantum-at-microsoft-ignite-2019/
======
carty76ers
Lots of Microsoft quantum posts all at once omiossec!
| {
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PeerTransfer Attracts Financing From Spark Capital - motvbi
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/10/28/peertransfer-announces-first-round-of-funding/?ref=technology
======
motvbi
Link peertransfer.com. Sounds promising.
| {
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Cat and Cloud Coffee Told by Caterpillar Inc. To Stop Using “CAT” in Trademark - rdhyee
https://www.ksbw.com/article/cat-and-cloud-coffee-in-santa-cruz-facing-trademark-controversy-against-caterpillar-inc/27595279
======
sathackr
They say: "Could anybody imagine a $54 billion machinery company coming after
a coffee company? I don't think that's even in the cards," said Truby. "The
first biggest thing they want us to do is not print the name Cat and Cloud on
anything again. I think that is unbelievable. I don't think that's going to
hold up."
Caterpillar says: Caterpillar Inc. says its only concern is over apparel,
providing Action News with this statement:
"Caterpillar serves customers around the world, many of whom earn their
livelihood with one or two machines and often a good pair of work boots. We
value all of them and strive to provide exceptional products and services.
This means we have a responsibility to protect and maintain the brand they
love and rely on every day - including our existing trademarks.
"We are not suing Cat & Cloud, not targeting a small business and not focused
on Cat & Cloud's primary interest: coffee. We've simply asked the U.S.
Trademark Office to remove Cat & Cloud's trademark registration on footwear
and apparel only, products for which Caterpillar has longstanding trademarks
and a considerable business. We hope to resolve this issue quickly."
It would seem they are entering the same industry, thus the action by
caterpillar seems warranted. Caterpillar is not just a heavy machinery
company, and it would seem Cat and Cloud is not selling just coffee.
~~~
ClassyJacket
"thus the action by caterpillar seems warranted"
It is not (unless you take the point of view that it's the laws that are
broken and Caterpillar has no choice). There is zero chance of anybody getting
this:
[https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/623965721517690880/K2s-...](https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/623965721517690880/K2s-JdMw_400x400.jpg)
confused with this:
[https://cdn.forconstructionpros.com/files/base/acbm/fcp/imag...](https://cdn.forconstructionpros.com/files/base/acbm/fcp/image/2010/12/16x9/640w/caterpill_10210679.jpg)
------
ultrarunner
I love the line "and a good pair of work boots." Marketing at its finest. Are
we really supposed to believe that the type of fellow who cherishes a "good
pair of work boots" is going to get confused and wear coffee-shop apparel to a
worksite? Are we really supposed to believe that this situation will threaten
anyone's ability to "earn their livelihood with one or two [Caterpillar]
machines?"
------
sonoffett
Best coffee in santa cruz IMO, also have an incredibly popular podcast
[https://catandcloud.com/pages/podcast](https://catandcloud.com/pages/podcast)
. Their sister bakery "companion" has best croissants I've had outside of
europe.
------
xupybd
"We are not suing Cat & Cloud, not targeting a small business and not focused
on Cat & Cloud's primary interest: coffee. We've simply asked the U.S.
Trademark Office to remove Cat & Cloud's trademark registration on footwear
and apparel only, products for which Caterpillar has longstanding trademarks
and a considerable business. We hope to resolve this issue quickly."
Sadly they have to defend this or they could risk losing the cat trademark on
footwear.
------
Eric_WVGG
For a company that has their fingers in every strip mine on the planet, this
is a pretty audacious move.
I wager in a matter of days some VP will get wind of this and scream at the
lawyers to slow their roll.
------
pbhjpbhj
"Sorry, this content is not available in your region."
Flagged.
~~~
CamperBob2
You're lucky, the site is completely toxic with popups and bogus virus alerts.
~~~
sathackr
I had to close 4 different pop-overs just to view the site on mobile.
No I don't want you to send me notifications. No I don't want to subscribe.
Please change your social media floater so that it doesn't take up 30% of the
vertical screen
| {
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Creating a Radial Menu in CSS - msvan
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/13132864/circular-tooltip/13137862#13137862
======
alanh
As another commenter here notes, this is in fact a “radial menu.”
Terminology is important. Language loses power when we use words incorrectly,
so please: Do not call this a “tooltip.” Tooltips are _only_ ever displayed on
hover (and disappear when the mouse leaves the described object — originally,
the tool for which the tip was needed!)
------
cookingrobot
This is also known as a radial menu, and has some great properties that make
it better (faster) than a normal context menu.
You should be able to select an item from the menu in a single fast (distance
insensitive) mouse gesture. Click down on the star, drag in the direction of
an option, and release the mouse to select it. This way you can choose an
option without having to stop after a certain distance of dragging, and you
can memorize the different directions of frequently used commands.
This demo doesn't implement that behavior yet though - so while it looks cool
this version is still missing the big benefit of this type of ui.
~~~
cwilson
I think you'd find a majority of users would be confused by this, as cool as
it sounds, the first time around. I cannot think of a single instance of a
popular web application that uses a click and hold mechanic of any kind (not
to be confused with dragging and dropping). People are used to clicking, not
holding, meaning they might never see the required secondary action of moving
the mouse over a new button.
You could of course add some kind of time delay, but then they would simply be
clicking a second time to interact, and this defeats the entire purpose of the
click and hold mechanic.
This is not to say I don't think you could train users to get used to this
mechanic, but from a first-time user perspective, this still falls under "bad
UX" in my book.
~~~
coldtea
> _I think you'd find a majority of users would be confused by this, as cool
> as it sounds, the first time around._
It doesn't matter if they are confused "the first time around" as long as they
can do their job better and faster the second and nth time around.
That's how UI progresses -- not just by self-evident things, but also by
people learning new idioms.
_> I cannot think of a single instance of a popular web application that uses
a click and hold mechanic of any kind._
The "kudos" button on Subtle is "hover and hold". I'm sure there are others.
~~~
cwilson
This is completely subjective, but I'd prefer to design interactions around
what I know my users are already comfortable with. My goal is to enable my
users to get to their end goal with the least amount of friction as possible.
Why would I train a user to learn something new when the method in the OP
achieves the exact same result, without a learning curve?
All I can see improving with the click, hold, and release method is enhanced
"cool factor".
~~~
coldtea
> _This is completely subjective, but I'd prefer to design interactions around
> what I know my users are already comfortable with. My goal is to enable my
> users to get to their end goal with the least amount of friction as
> possible._
Well, there's a compromise, though, between:
(a) "designing interactions around what I know my users are already
comfortable with"
(b) "enabling users to get to their end goal with the least amount of friction
as possible"
in all cases where an initial unfamiliarity with a new idiom lowers the
friction for hundreds of subsequent uses.
As a crude example, consider "undo" in a painting application. Say the user
wants to erase all he did up to this point. We could let the artists work the
way they are "already familiar with" (paint on top to cover their mistakes, or
use some eraser tool to delete the whole thing part by part).
But by having them learn the concept of "undo", they could achieve the same
effect faster. And even better if the learned the concept of "history"
(jumping to arbitrary undo states).
(Now in those cases, all the above options can also be present at all times --
so the users don't have to give up one for another. But there are other cases
where this is not the case, and you have to decide upon the better but new way
to design a control vs the old, clunkier, but familiar).
------
drewda
If you don't need all that glitz, here's a jQuery plug-in:
<http://zikes.github.io/circle-menu/>
The best (semi)circular menus I've seen recently are in the iD editor for
OpenStreetMap: <http://ideditor.com/>
~~~
antoinec
The reason of the post is not the circular menu itself but the fact that it's
entirely made in CSS. I think this is really impressive.
~~~
ecuzzillo
I'm genuinely curious: why is that exciting? I don't know a huge amount about
the web stack.
~~~
jakerocheleau
Usually JavaScript would be used to create the flyout menu effect like you see
in the Dabblet. But since it's done in CSS3 any browsers which support those
standard properties can work - no need for any JS code. It's just a neat
workaround and very impressive IMO.
~~~
adventured
Do more browsers currently support JS or CSS3? (eg up to jquery 1.9 or
similar) Not sure I've seen the stats on that as of yet and I'm curious.
~~~
habosa
Do any browsers with any real marketshare (even a tenth of a percent) not
support JavaScript? I can't think of any examples although I've never had any
reason to dive too deep into browser compatibility specifics for my projects.
~~~
hfsktr
Even if they do it can be turned off pretty easy. CSS wouldn't be affected in
that way (I would think).
------
habosa
I love pie menus. The stock Android Browser's hidden "quick controls" are
incredible and by far the fastest way to use a mobile web browser. You slide
your thumb in off the side of the screen and then in the same motion move to
the action you're looking for and simply release to activate. It's not obvious
unless you show the user it's there but once you have it you don't want to go
back.
link for the curious: [http://www.droid-life.com/2012/02/07/tip-browser-quick-
contr...](http://www.droid-life.com/2012/02/07/tip-browser-quick-controls-
expanded-in-android-4-0-4/)
~~~
hrayr
The stock camera app in Jelly Bean also has a particularly good implementation
of a radial menu.
------
brudgers
I remember an article in Dr. Dobbs hailing pie menus as the future of user
interfaces. It was the early 90's. I have always thought they were a great
idea.
Currently Microsoft Office One Note uses them.
Here's a list of references for pie menus (the Dr. Dobbs article is cited):
[http://www.cs.cornell.edu/boom/2001sp/bronevetsky/Circle%20M...](http://www.cs.cornell.edu/boom/2001sp/bronevetsky/Circle%20Menu%20References.htm)
In fairness to Dr. Dobbs, they also hailed hypertext as the future about that
time, and that one they nailed.
~~~
Odin9
1993's Secret of Mana was well known for its ring menu. I don't think radial
menus are practical with mice, they fit controllers and console games better
(where interacting with menus is slower).
~~~
pazimzadeh
Agreed, I think that radial menus are only really good for touch screens.
------
wubbfindel
Very impressive how close the answerer gets to the questioners mock up. Good
job that man!
And yet, I bet the designer will still come back and say the curve isn't
right, or the bar isn't think enough.
I think that's some impressive CSS.
~~~
state
Interestingly, 'that man' is apparently a woman:
<http://stackoverflow.com/users/1397351/ana>
~~~
wubbfindel
Oh yeah, so it is.
Didn't think to check. Doesn't make any difference to me, man or women. It's
good work.
No offence intended.
------
bsimpson
I made a similar tool for quickly navigating between tabs in Chrome:
[http://www.appsforartists.com/get_app/chrome_marking_menu/?s...](http://www.appsforartists.com/get_app/chrome_marking_menu/?source=hn)
------
modarts
Anyone find the "Anna, marry me?" comment to be a tad sexist? /ducks
~~~
Sharlin
Yes. Not to mention the one commenter that "would like to stalk" her. Flagged
that one.
------
nthitz
Great demo. Not to nitpick, but the original poster's question was about a 3
item menu. It would be nice if the CSS allowed arbitrary number of elements.
Right now, deleting one of the 5 links seems to break the design. Seems like
something SASS could handle.
~~~
toyg
I'm not a webdev, but the code says:
/*
* rotate each slice at the right angle = (A/2)° + (k - (n+1)/2)*A°
* where A is the angle of 1 slice (30° in this case)
* k is the number of the slice (in {1,2,3,4,5} here)
* and n is the number of slices (5 in this case)
* formula works for odd number of slices (n odd)
* for even number of slices (n even) the rotation angle is (k - n/2)*A°
*
* after rotating, skew on Y by 90°-A°; here A° = the angle for 1 slice = 30°
*/
So there's a calculation to be done. I guess there are various ways to get
around that.
~~~
ngoel36
...so SASS?
~~~
nthj
SASS could help you generate the required CSS, but you would still need some
kind of customized markup, dynamic call to a SASS function, or JavaScript if
you wanted to support a truly arbitrary/dynamic/database-driven number of
buttons.
~~~
mctx
A number of different static CSS files even - static5.css
Or a serverside script in your favourite language - static.css?slices=5
------
nirvanatikku
That's getting nice right there -- slick CSS implementation and a sweet
design.
Having authored a jQuery Radial Menu plugin[1], I'll add that I have seen
significant interest in the interface/plugin from a ton of folks over the
years, but few real world implementations that have engaged me beyond first
glance.
Personally I find the interface best utilized in situations where I'd rather
not divert my attention and am performing similar tasks frequently - like in
some games. When it comes to getting _creative_ with the UI component as a
developer, though, I've found it tough to do _really_ well. It gets gimmick-y
quickly. Path's QuadCurveMenu has been the best implementation of any type of
circular menu that I've seen. Summly had a radial menu as well, but I didn't
find it particularly useful - just fun to play with.
For anyone interested, here are some examples using the radmenu plugin:
<http://tikku.com/jquery-radmenu-plugin#radmenu_tutorial_4>. Also, my site
opens up with a radial menu: <http://www.tikku.com>.
Would love to hear thoughts from any other folks that have actually
experimented with the radial menu interface?
[1]<http://plugins.jquery.com/radmenu/>
------
tomasien
It's amazing the economic value Ana created by posting this. It's gorgeous,
and every single web designer can (and where appropriate, should) now use this
to make themselves look SO much better.
I wonder if the people who have posted the flagship answers on Stack Overflow
know what heroes they are.
------
fractallyte
WebPie is a JavaScript version of the same: <http://www.markusfisch.de/>
It's smoother and more responsive than the jQuery plugin mentioned in this
thread.
And, of course, the site above has the incomparable PieDock for Linux/BSD.
------
tomasien
Whooaaa I just realized, unless I'm mistaken, this isn't actually a functional
menu. If you add actual href's to the menu items, they don't take you anywhere
because as soon as they're clicked the focus is removed, so the href does
nothing.
------
kpapke
My friend created this: <http://permalightnyc.com/experiments/radial-menu>
------
dopamean
For some reason on my computer that it renders like this:
<http://i.imgur.com/ycKsaim.png>
~~~
coldtea
It would so much more valuable if you also included browser and version!
~~~
dopamean
lol. Pardon me. Chrome Version 26.0.1410.65 (up to date)
------
SolarUpNote
This is amazing.
But it makes me think about how much easier it would have been to make that in
Flash 10 years ago. Sigh.
------
ionforce
It's a variant of the "pie menu".
------
ubermammal
FWIW, it breaks if you use Tab to cycle through the links.
~~~
nthj
Unfortunately, CSS does not support a "has", "contains", or "parent" selector,
which would be required to support this.
.button:focus + .tip, .tip.open, .tip:has(a:focus)
One line of jQuery should solve:
$('.tip a').focus(function(){ $('.tip').addClass('open'); }).blur(function(){ $('.tip').removeClass('open'); });
------
gokulk
looks nice.. thanks for sharing
------
grizzy
Really cool!
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Is Death Reversible? - LinuxBender
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-death-reversible/
======
RcouF1uZ4gsC
Neurosurgeons have been using hypothermia (cooling down the body) and
circulatory arrest (stopping the heart) to treat complicated brain aneurysms
since the 1980's. Some of the outcomes have been very good.
[http://ether.stanford.edu/library/neuroanesthesia/SNACC%20Re...](http://ether.stanford.edu/library/neuroanesthesia/SNACC%20Reading%20List%20articles/Spetzler_Aneurysms%20of%20the%20basilar%20artery%20treated.pdf)
When a person is in that state, they have no signs of life - no heartbeat and
no blood to the brain, yet a significant portion of the time, they do well.
From the article, it looks like they have done this for up to 50 minutes. "
The median duration of complete arrest in our series was 11 minutes; the range
was 7 to 53 minutes. This is consistent with reports from other neurological
surgeons who have employed extracorporeal circulation for intracranial
vascular surgery "
~~~
nefitty
I wonder how different the experience of waking up from induced hypothermia is
from, say, a coma. From my understanding, in a coma there is sometimes brain
activity, up to the point that some people end up with Locked-in
syndrome(LIS).
An example is Martin Pistorius, who has vivid memories of his time in his
pseudocoma. That means his sense of self was intact throughout that
experience. That colors what it feels like to "escape" from the coma. In
dreams, we usually have a sense of self, i.e. we "come back" to reality.
There are also people who experience the subjective Near-death experience
(NDE) which sometimes involves bodily detachment, etc. but presumably this NDE
feels like it's occurring to that person's self. When under anaesthesia,
waking up from it is more like waking up from a really deep nap, and from my
experience, is easy to integrate.
Now, when waking up from induced hypothermia, does the brain slowly kick on
different modules? Does the brain snap back to the last thought the person was
having? To use a programming analogy, does the brain save state in a physical
way? Or is it like restarting a computer fresh?
This is such a cool technique. Thank you for sharing info on it.
~~~
pmoriarty
_" An example is Martin Pistorius, who has vivid memories of his time in his
pseudocoma. That means his sense of self was intact throughout that
experience."_
Or they could just be false memories.
~~~
thrownblown
6 years of false memories? (edit: corrected the duration of his LIS)
~~~
asveikau
If 6 years had passed with limited sensory input, and you were pretty sure you
remembered all of it, how would you know if that's true?
How much detail do we really remember of _our own_ last 6 years of fully
awake, conscious existence not spent in such a state?
I feel like once you get to such a length of time you can't trust your own
memory of it. Obviously he could know enough to say "I was conscious during
some point of that time window" but measuring it would be hard.
------
dTal
Definitionally, no. If you can come back, you're just ill.
It's like asking, "can erased data be recovered?" If it can, it's not erased.
~~~
felipemnoa
If we ever invent time travel that will mean that, relatively speaking, we all
live forever. That would also mean that the universe is continually recording
every single instance of time.
If I were a sci-fi author I would write that the reason the universe is
expanding and accelerating is to record all of the new data being created.
Just like a needle writing on a record. To record more data it needs to move
the needle farther away from the center. And the farther away from the center
it moves the faster the needle, relative to the disc, moves.
~~~
irrational
I'd actually like to read that sci-fi story. Its a fun premise.
~~~
TheOtherHobbes
You are - for limited values of "read".
------
equalunique
I chose to celebrate Halloween by binging on an HP Lovecraft audiobook, the
Necronomicon. Of the short stories contained within, the second one,
Reanimator, is my recommendation for anyone in search of spooky entertainment
on this topic. I have to warn however that it's set in the 1920s, back when
the N word and eugenics were both considered hip.
------
Razengan
Is copying your brain into another body == bringing you back to life?
The game SOMA explores a lot of the topics being brought up in this
discussion:
[https://www.gog.com/game/soma](https://www.gog.com/game/soma)
~~~
asaph
This is the human version of the philosophical Ship of Theseus[0] question.
[0]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus)
~~~
SteveNuts
My thinking is, my brain is almost entirely what makes me "me". The rest of my
body is just a container. I do understand the analogy though.
~~~
UnFleshedOne
Sense of self is quite possibly an illusion a bunch of separate processes in
the brain use to organize things. If this is true, changing some of those
gradually enough will preserve your sense of self. This is what any experience
does to you in various degrees. (Changing them rapidly might conflict with
previous memory though.) Even remembering something rewrites that memory and
you end up with a slightly different one.
So it is possible that not only your body gets completely replaced many times
over, but your identity and memories and thinking processes get replaced by
imperfect copies.
------
mirimir
> “All right. He’s dead. Go ahead and talk to him.”
[https://www.gregegan.net/DISTRESS/DISTRESS.html](https://www.gregegan.net/DISTRESS/DISTRESS.html)
~~~
alanfalcon
Good ol' Greg Egan. Thanks for sharing.
------
pnutjam
So we're finally finding out where the zombies are going to come from.
~~~
HenryKissinger
Unfortunately (chuckle), not really. The brain sustains permanent damage after
a few minutes without oxygenated blood.
~~~
jagged-chisel
Most zombies appear to have much less than a fully functional brain.
------
primroot
"Evolution equipped our species with powerful defense mechanisms to deal with
this foreknowledge—in particular, psychological suppression and religion."
Religion is a result of evolution?
~~~
vermilingua
Isn't, arguably, all of society a result of evolution?
~~~
buboard
cultures are created and die at a rate much higher than evolutionary
timescales
~~~
vermilingua
But the structures that give rise to cultures are a direct result of the
evolutionary process.
~~~
buboard
yeah but culture doesn't need to wait for natural selection in order to
evolve.
Incidentally this phrase " cultures are a direct result of the evolutionary
process" is a apparently taboo for anthropologists today. I tried to ask such
a question on reddit's askanthropology, about which aspects of genetic
differences contribute to cultural artifacts, like alcoholism differences,
lactose intolerance differences etc. the question was apparently racist and
removed
------
RickJWagner
It is reversible, if the decedent is only _mostly_ dead. I've seen it in film.
------
sudhirj
Whether or not death is reversible, this lends a lot of credence to cryo-
suspension when near death. This proves clearly that an inactive brain reboot
is possible, though to what extent memories or identity will be retained is
unclear.
Even if the brain is restorable with about as much damage as stroke victim
(which is a lot) this is still interesting.
~~~
lisper
> an inactive brain reboot is possible
You don't need to die to demonstrate that. General anesthesia suffices.
(FYI, for the benefit of those who have never experienced it, GA is a very
different subjective experience from sleep. Even in dream-free sleep you wake
up with a subjective sensation of time having passed. Not so with GA. The time
you spend in GA is just completely gone. It feels like you went through a time
warp.)
~~~
Andrew_nenakhov
Exactly, I was under GA once. If felt like sugary vapor, and I started to feel
funny. Then I blinked, just for a second, and when I opened they eyes, I
suddenly felt that I can't focus my eyes and everything is blurry. They told I
was out for 6 hours, but to me it was just a blink.
~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
I've been under GA several times, the experience differs pretty drastically
actually. When I had my wisdom teeth out it was much like you describe, as
though a period of time had simply been excised from my reality. Other times
the awakening was so slow that it was like I was slowly piecing reality back
together from its base components.
~~~
Andrew_nenakhov
My hospital mates told me that sometimes people go from GA to real sleep.
Probably in that case they do feel some time passing and have difficult
awakenings. Probably that's what happened to you.
------
rafaelvasco
Well. I believe it's totally possible to animate the body to an extent after
death. But the totality of the individual, the consciousness, is gone. No
going back; Either it merges back with the Universe, or goes to heaven, or
fades away to nothing. Whatever you believe, it's gone. As someone famous
(Lavoisier) said though: "Nothing is lost, nothing is created, everything is
transformed." I guess the "fades away to nothing" is the only impossible
option;
~~~
izzydata
As in the neural pathways of the brain degrade to the point that no longer
resembles human intelligence?
I don't think most people here are going to believe in a spark of
consciousness that breaths life into the brain.
~~~
TaupeRanger
Neural pathways are just pathways. The electrical patterns that reside in the
interactions between neurons are necessary for conscious experience. Once the
patterns are gone, information is lost. It is like taking a snapshot of a
table of moving billiard balls. You only have the position of the balls, but
not the velocity, acceleration, etc. And those are necessary to recreate the
motion. The "motion" in the case of the brain is what creates the person (as
far as anyone currently knows). Having the dead neurons and their dead
connections is not enough.
~~~
Felz
That doesn't seem true? Short-term memory is encoded in transient electrical
patterns, but long term memory definitely is not. You definitely don't lose
your personhood if you suffer an interruption to short term memory, or else
everyone who's ever had a seizure is already dead.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory#Long-
term_memory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory#Long-term_memory)
~~~
TaupeRanger
We actually have no idea how memory is encoded in any way - but that is
irrelevant. When a person has a seizure, the electrical activity continues and
is able to revert back to previous patterns through self correcting/preserving
measures. My comment was referring to a completely dead brain with no activity
whatsoever.
------
YeGoblynQueenne
>> In my case, it was only as a mature man that I became fully mortal. I had
wasted an entire evening playing an addictive, first-person shooter video
game—running through subterranean halls, flooded corridors, nightmarishly
turning tunnels, and empty plazas under a foreign sun, firing my weapons at
hordes of aliens relentlessly pursuing me.
Strange how the definition of "mature man" has also changed over the ages.
------
tulunsutao
A sci-fi tale in which a man is resurrected using technology:
[https://knowingless.com/2016/08/20/you-wake-up-on-a-
table/](https://knowingless.com/2016/08/20/you-wake-up-on-a-table/)
------
xaedes
The Last Answer - Isaac Asimov [https://highexistence.com/the-last-answer-
short-story/](https://highexistence.com/the-last-answer-short-story/)
Murray Templeton was forty-five years old, in the prime of life, and with all
parts of his body in perfect working order except for certain key portions of
his coronary arteries, but that was enough.
The pain had come suddenly, had mounted to an unbearable peak, and had then
ebbed steadily. He could feel his breath slowing and a kind of gathering peace
washing over him.
There is no pleasure like the absence of pain – immediately after pain. Murray
felt an almost giddy lightness as though he were lifting in the air and
hovering.
He opened his eyes and noted with distant amusement that the others in the
room were still agitated. He had been in the laboratory when the pain had
struck, quite without warning, and when he had staggered, he had heard
surprised outcries from the others before everything vanished into
overwhelming agony.
Now, with the pain gone, the others were still hovering, still anxious, still
gathered about his fallen body –– Which, he suddenly realised, he was looking
down on.
He was down there, sprawled, face contorted. He was up here, at peace and
watching.
He thought: Miracle of miracles! The life-after-life nuts were right.
And although that was a humiliating way for an atheistic physicist to die, he
felt only the mildest surprise, and no alteration of the peace in which he was
immersed.
He thought: There should be some angel – or something – coming for me.
The Earthly scene was fading. Darkness was invading his consciousness and off
in a distance, as a last glimmer of sight, there was a figure of light,
vaguely human in form, and radiating warmth.
Murray thought: What a joke on me. I’m going to Heaven.
Even as he thought that, the light faded, but the warmth remained. There was
no lessening of the peace even though in all the Universe only he remained –
and the Voice.
The Voice said, “I have done this so often and yet I still have the capacity
to be pleased at success.”
It was in Murray’s mind to say something, but he was not conscious of
possessing a mouth, tongue, or vocal chords. Nevertheless, tried to make a
sound. He tried, mouthlessly, to hum words or breathe them or just push them
out by a contraction of – something.
And they came out. He heard his own voice, quite recognisable, and his own
words, infinitely clear.
Murray said, “Is this Heaven?”
The Voice said, “This is no place as you understand place.”
Murray was embarrassed, but the next question had to be asked. “Pardon me if I
sound like a jackass. Are you God?”
Without changing intonation or in any way marring the perfection of the sound,
the Voice managed to sound amused. “It is strange that I am always asked that
in, of course, an infinite number of ways. There is no answer I can give that
you would comprehend. I am – which is all that I can say significantly and you
may cover that with any word or concept you please.”
Murray said, “And what am I? A soul? Or am I only personified existence too?”
He tried not to sound sarcastic, but it seemed to him that he had failed. He
thought then, fleetingly, of adding a ‘Your Grace’ or ‘Holy One’ or something
to counteract the sarcasm, and could not bring himself to do so even though
for the first time in his existence he speculated on the possibility of being
punished for his insolence – or sin? – with Hell, and what that might be like.
The Voice did not sound offended. “You are easy to explain – even to you. You
may call yourself a soul if that pleases you, but what you are is a nexus of
electromagnetic forces, so arranged that all the interconnections and
interrelationships are exactly imitative of those of your brain in your
Universe-existence – down to the smallest detail. Therefore you have your
capacity for thought, your memories, your personality. It still seems to you
that you are you.”
Murray found himself incredulous. “You mean the essence of my brain was
permanent?”
“Not at all. There is nothing about you that is permanent except what I choose
to make so. I formed the nexus. I constructed it while you had physical
existence and adjusted it to the moment when the existence failed.”
The Voice seemed distinctly pleased with itself, and went on after a moment’s
pause. “An intricate but entirely precise construction. I could, of course, do
it for every human being on your world but I am pleased that I do not. There
is pleasure in the selection.”
“You choose very few then?”
“Very few.”
“And what happens to the rest?”
“Oblivion! – Oh, of course, you imagine a Hell.”
Murray would have flushed if he had the capacity to do so. He said, “I do not.
It is spoken of. Still, I would scarcely have thought I was virtuous enough to
have attracted your attention as one of the Elect.”
“Virtuous? – Ah, I see what you mean. It is troublesome to have to force my
thinking small enough to permeate yours. No, I have chosen you for your
capacity for thought, as I choose others, in quadrillions, from all the
intelligent species of the Universe.”
Murray found himself suddenly curious, the habit of a lifetime. He said, “Do
you choose them all yourself or are there others like you?”
For a fleeting moment, Murray thought there was an impatient reaction to that,
but when the Voice came, it was unmoved. “Whether or not there are others is
irrelevant to you. This Universe is mine, and mine alone. It is my invention,
my construction, intended for my purpose alone.”
“And yet with quadrillions of nexi you have formed, you spend time with me? Am
I that important?”
The Voice said, “You are not important at all. I am also with others in a way
which, to your perception, would seem simultaneous.”
“And yet you are one?”
Again amusement. The Voice said, “You seek to trap me into an inconsistency.
If you were an amoeba who could consider individuality only in connection with
single cells and if you were to ask a sperm whale, made up of thirty
quadrillion cells, whether it was one or many, how could the sperm whale
answer in a way that would be comprehensible to the amoeba?”
Murray said dryly, “I’ll think about it. It may become comprehensible.”
“Exactly. That is your function. You will think.”
“To what end? You already know everything, I suppose.”
~~~
xaedes
The Voice said, “Even if I knew everything, I could not know that I know
everything.”
Murray said, “That sounds like a bit of Eastern philosophy – something that
sounds profound precisely because it has no meaning.”
The Voice said, “You have promise. You answer my paradox with a paradox –
except that mine is not a paradox. Consider. I have existed eternally, but
what does that mean? It means I cannot remember having come into existence. If
I could, I would not have existed eternally. If I cannot remember having come
into existence, then there is at least one thing – the nature of my coming
into existence – that I do not know.
“Then, too, although what I know is infinite, it is also true that what there
is to know is infinite, and how can I be sure that both infinities are equal?
The infinity of potential knowledge may be infinitely greater than the
infinity of my actual knowledge. Here is a simple example: If I knew every one
of the even integers, I would know an infinite number of items, and yet I
would still not know a single odd integer.”
Murray said, “But the odd integers can be derived. If you divide every even
integer in the entire infinite series by two, you will get another infinite
series which will contain within it the infinite series of odd integers.”
The Voice said, “You have the idea. I am pleased. It will be your task to find
other such ways, far more difficult ones, from the known to the not-yet-known.
You have your memories. You will remember all the data you have ever collected
or learned, or that you have or will deduce from that data. If necessary, you
will be allowed to learn what additional data you will consider relevant to
the problems you set yourself.”
“Could you not do all that for yourself?”
The Voice said, “I can, but it is more interesting this way. I constructed the
Universe in order to have more facts to deal with. I inserted the uncertainty
principle, entropy, and other randomisation factors to make the whole not
instantly obvious. It has worked well for it has amused me throughout its
entire existence.
“I then allowed complexities that produced first life and then intelligence,
and use it as a source for a research team, not because I need the aid, but
because it would introduce a new random factor. I found I could not predict
the next interesting piece of knowledge gained, where it would come from, by
what means derived.”
Murray said, “Does that ever happen?”
“Certainly. A century doesn’t pass in which some interesting item doesn’t
appear somewhere.”
“Something that you could have thought of yourself, but had not done so yet?”
“Yes.”
Murray said, “Do you actually think there’s a chance of my obliging you in
this manner?”
“In the next century? Virtually none. In the long run, though, your success is
certain, since you will be engaged eternally.”
Murray said, “I will be thinking through eternity? Forever?”
“Yes.”
“To what end?”
“I have told you. To find new knowledge.”
“But beyond that. For what purpose am I to find new knowledge?”
“It was what you did in your Universe-bound life. What was its purpose then?”
Murray said, “To gain new knowledge that only I could gain. To receive the
praise of my fellows. To feel the satisfaction of accomplishment knowing that
I had only a short time allotted me for the purpose. – Now I would gain only
what you could gain yourself if you wished to take a small bit of trouble. You
cannot praise me; you can only be amused. And there is no credit or
satisfaction in accomplishment when I have all eternity to do it in.”
The Voice said, “And you do not find thought and discovery worthwhile in
itself? You do not find it requiring no further purpose?”
“For a finite time, yes. Not for all eternity.”
“I see your point. Nevertheless, you have no choice.”
“You say I am to think. You cannot make me do so.”
The Voice said, “I do not wish to constrain you directly. I will not need to.
Since you can do nothing but think, you will think. You do not know how not to
think.”
“Then I will give myself a goal. I will invent a purpose.”
The Voice said tolerantly, “That you can certainly do.”
“I have already found a purpose.”
“May I know what it is?”
“You know already. I know we are not speaking in the ordinary fashion. You
adjust my nexus is such a way that I believe I hear you and I believe I speak,
but you transfer thoughts to me and from me directly. And when my nexus
changes with my thoughts you are at once aware of them and do not need my
voluntary transmission.”
The Voice said, “You are surprisingly correct. I am pleased. – But it also
pleases me to have you tell me your thoughts voluntarily.”
“Then I will tell you. The purpose of my thinking will be to discover a way to
disrupt this nexus of me that you have created. I do not want to think for no
purpose but to amuse you. I do not want to think forever to amuse you. I do
not want to exist forever to amuse you. All my thinking will be directed
toward ending the nexus. That would amuse me.”
The Voice said, “I have no objection to that. Even concentrated thought on
ending your own existence may, in spite of you, come up with something new and
interesting. And, of course, if you succeed in this suicide attempt you will
have accomplished nothing, for I would instantly reconstruct you and in such a
way as to make your method of suicide impossible. And if you found another and
still more subtle fashion of disrupting yourself, I would reconstruct you with
that possibility eliminated, and so on. It could be an interesting game, but
you will nevertheless exist eternally. It is my will.”
Murray felt a quaver but the words came out with a perfect calm. “Am I in Hell
then, after all? You have implied there is none, but if this were Hell you
would lie to us as part of the game of Hell.”
The Voice said, “In that case, of what use is it to assure you that you are
not in Hell? Nevertheless, I assure you. There is here neither Heaven nor
Hell. There is only myself.”
Murray said, “Consider, then, that my thoughts may be useless to you. If I
come up with nothing useful, will it not be worth your while to – disassemble
me and take no further trouble with me?”
“As a reward? You want Nirvana as the prize of failure and you intend to
assure me failure? There is no bargain there. You will not fail. With all
eternity before you, you cannot avoid having at least one interesting thought,
however you try against it.”
“Then I will create another purpose for myself. I will not try to destroy
myself. I will set as my goal the humiliation of you. I will think of
something you have not only never thought of but never could think of. I will
think of the last answer, beyond which there is no knowledge further.”
The Voice said, “You do not understand the nature of the infinite. There may
be things I have not yet troubled to know. There cannot be anything I cannot
know.”
Murray said thoughtfully, “You cannot know your beginning. You have said so.
Therefore you cannot know your end. Very well, then. That will be my purpose
and that will be the last answer. I will not destroy myself. I will destroy
you – if you do not destroy me first.”
The Voice said, “Ah! You come to that in rather less than average time. I
would have thought it would have taken you longer. There is not one of those I
have with me in this existence of perfect and eternal thought that does not
have the ambition of destroying me. It cannot be done.”
Murray said, “I have all eternity to think of a way of destroying you.”
The Voice said, equably, “Then try to think of it.” And it was gone.
But Murray had his purpose now and was content.
For what could any Entity, conscious of eternal existence, want – but an end?
For what else had the Voice been searching for countless billions of years?
And for what other reason had intelligence been created and certain specimens
salvaged and put to work, but to aid in that great search? And Murray intended
that it would be he, and he alone, who would succeed.
Carefully, and with the thrill of purpose, Murray began to think.
He had plenty of time.
------
amriksohata
There have been studies that shows the mind is working after death
[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/mind-works-
after-...](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/mind-works-after-death-
consciousness-sam-parnia-nyu-langone-a8007101.html)
In Hinduism, the Garuda Purana details this as not the physical mind, but the
detached soul can see the body as it floats above it and watches its relatives
weep. But it can reattach it self in some cases. Some Yogis also talk of being
able to detach their body from their soul using breath alone.
~~~
buboard
that was only because "Death is defined as the point at which the heart no
longer beats, and blood flow to the brain is cut off."
Superstitious beliefs about mind-brain duality are not relevant
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: Indexing video through content - steeve
https://manage.veezio.com/#!/videos/video_object:youtube.com:video:VLzKjxglNyE?q=nasa&demo
======
julien421
I don't understand, so you sync the video with the transcript or do you
extract the transcript yourself from the video?
~~~
steeve
We "generate" it, through speech to text. But if Youtube has a human made
transcript, we're using it.
But also we're doing some NLP, and image analysis too. You can check out what
we do here: <http://veezio.com/features>
~~~
julien421
Very nice! What about video SEO? Do you know which impact your product has on
SEO? If I put the transcript on my youtube page (in description) and/or on my
webpage? What can I expect from that?
~~~
steeve
Basically we "feed" all this data to Google through schema.org, and also
reupload all this on Youtube.
Search "ron conway startup school" on Google to see what I mean.
------
steeve
Sorry if it's a little slow guys, our servers are in Europe and it seems it's
a little slow from the US.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Coding Interview Solutions Manual - cism
http://interviewsolutionsmanual.com/
======
greenyoda
This is just an ad for a $20 e-book, posted by someone who created their HN ID
solely for this purpose.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
A Spacecraft for All: The Journey of the ISEE-3 - mightybrenden
http://spacecraftforall.com/comet-chase
======
joegaudet
I'd love to see something like this for NASA missions, Cassini, New Horizons,
The Voyagers.
Really cool visualization of the missions.
~~~
jsiarto
Not exactly the same--but NASA has a pretty cool dashboard for the Deep Space
Network:
[http://eyes.nasa.gov/dsn/dsn.html](http://eyes.nasa.gov/dsn/dsn.html)
------
hardwaresofton
This is insanely cool. Always impressed to see what people are doing in the
browser nowadays, this presentation is immersive, without being overbearing,
and informative. Transitions are smooth and purposeful, great work
------
dang
[https://hn.algolia.com/?q=spacecraft+for+all#!/story/forever...](https://hn.algolia.com/?q=spacecraft+for+all#!/story/forever/0/spacecraft%20for%20all)
------
FireBeyond
“A Spacecraft for All: A Website for Chrome."
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Elon Musk and Tesla sued over “funding secured” tweet - calcifer
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/aug/11/elon-musk-and-tesla-sued-over-funding-secured-tweet
======
barbarr
Well, it was bound to happen. Curious to see what comes of it.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Browsers' share of your site - conductor
The current whole-world statistics of browsers' "market" share are well-known, but it would be nice to know the situation grouped by region and site type. Please contribute.<p>Real example:<p>Region: East Europe
Site type: Entertainment, movies/music discussion<p>Google Chrome 49.2 %
Firefox 28.8 %
Opera 15.9 %
MS IE 4.9 %
Safari 0.8 %
======
bdmorgan
We're a football site (NFL/College) so virtually all of our audience is
American males...18-50-ish.
IE: 35% Firefox: 25% Chrome: 22% Safari: 11% Android: 3%
In terms of operating system:
77% Windows 12% Mac
26% of our visitors are running at 1280 x 800 resolution or below.
------
kirchhoff
Region: Worldwide, Site Type: Google Maps mashup
Firefox: 42% Chrome: 30% IE: 13% Safari: 12% Opera: 2%
------
sim0n
Region: US Site Type: Project management
Chrome: 68% Safari: 18% Firefox: 13%
------
profitbaron
I'll provide some details with regards to one of my sites which, I built
really quickly & let it grow naturally (The site has had no promotion, it
contains spelling mistakes etc & I have done nothing with it although, I am
planning to fix it etc shortly as traffic and revenue is constantly growing on
it)
I'd class the site as an Entertainment type site.
These are all time stats for the site in terms of browser usage:
Firefox: 38.83% Internet Explorer: 38.72% Google Chrome: 9.89% Safari: 9.29%
Opera: 1.77%
There is also mobile traffic to the site despite, not having a mobile version
etc - For instance this month Android is at 1.9% (5th most popular browser).
Likewise, Chrome has also increased in percentage recently and is now around
23% with Firefox and IE falling to 30% and 28% respectively.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Five Years, That’s All We’ve Got - Sodaware
http://www.subfurther.com/blog/2011/12/13/five-years-thats-all-weve-got/
======
batista
_This isn’t the first time I’ve put an unpopular prediction out there: in
2005, back when I was with O’Reilly and right after the Intel transition
announcement, I I predicted that Mac OS X 10.6 would come out in 2010 and be
Intel-only. This was called “questionable”, “dumb”, and “ridiculous advice”._
Is this old prediction supposed to be impressive, and meant to serve as a
convincing track record in regard to predictions?
Because after the Intel transition was announced it was obvious (and not just
in retrospect) that OS X would abandon PPC and a future OS X version would be
Intel only. Actually, that's the basic meaning of the word "transition" --and
Steve had said, when he introduced it, that Intel gave them the better future
roadmap.
_The iPad and the MacBook (the only Mac that matters) are converging on the
same place on the product diagram: an ultra-light portable computing device
with long battery life_
Well, that leaves all the stuff that a tablet can't do.
Now, possibly, we would add a keyboard and a big screen on an iPad, in the
future. And the iOS of the era would have many more capabilities, like a
modern Mac has. Well, I wouldn't call that the disappearance of the Mac. Just
a new form factor that replaced the old one. You know, like laptops sales have
eclipsed desktop ones.
_Mac OS X shows signs of becoming less capable, through deliberate crippling
of applications by the OS._
I have seen not one sign of "deliberate crippling of applications by the OS"
from OS X 10.0.1 to OS X 10.8. Where is that supposed "crippling"?
It's FCPX not having all the features of old FCP? That's because it was
written from fu*n scratch, and they couldn't add all the stuff in time. The
big things missing are already here (XML importing, Multicam, etc), whereas
other stuff were left out like floppy disks where left out: they don't make
much sense going forward but for a very small minority (e.g tape editing). Go
to Philip Bloom's blog to read the experiences of 7 experienced professional
editors with FCPX and how they come around to liking it as an improvement over
FCP.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: SameTunes – A Music Compatibility Platform for Spotify - garrepi
https://sametunes.com/
======
garrepi
Hey HN!
I'm one of the developers on the SameTunes team. We've spent the whole summer
working out of a house to build this platform. We're really proud of the work
we've done and hope you all enjoy using it.
With SameTunes you can view interesting statistics about your taste, find your
music compatibility with friends, and discover new music!
Let us know what you think
~~~
svantana
Nice work, it looks really polished! What I would suggest improving is the
single user experience: what I can do without involving friends. Right now I
only see a huge list of strangers in alphabetical order. Picking someone at
random seems pointless. However, if strangers could be sorted by match, that
could be really interesting. That could also serve as a benchmark for my
matchscore with friends.
If this is prohibitively costly in your current setup, I would suggest mapping
each user profile to an embedding vector and find best matches using
approximate nearest neighbors, that scales really well.
~~~
garrepi
I agree 1,000%.
When building out the platform, efficiency was a foremost consideration.
Because of that, each comparison calculation flies.
That's a good implementation suggestion, it reminds me of the adjacency matrix
Twitter uses for mutual friends.
I'm drafting up proposal for your idea now, it serves a really strong
introduction to the platform.
Thanks!
~~~
LolWolf
I think the embedding idea in specific is quite good and there are several
potential approaches! One is, if you let xᵢ be the song vector for user i
(whose kth entry is 1 if user i has song k in their library and 0 otherwise).
Then you can compute the "overlap" by something like xᵢ ⋅ xⱼ (with some
normalization of course!) where ⋅ is the inner product. [0]
A simple approximation of this inner product would be to generate a random
(potentially sparse!) matrix S whose nonzero entries are i.i.d. Gaussian, for
example, and whose number of rows is much smaller than the number of columns
[1], then you can instead store and compute
(Sxᵢ) ⋅ (Sxⱼ)
which gives you an approximate overlap, whose storage and computation
requirements are much smaller for each user (since Sxᵢ is much smaller in
number of entries than xᵢ).
\-----
[0] Of course, there are many other similar methods! This is a particularly
simple, but often fairly effective one.
[1] More specifically, it goes like O(log(n)/ε²) where ε is the error you wish
to achieve. Often, a fairly large choice of ε actually will suffice. See
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson–Lindenstrauss_lemma](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson–Lindenstrauss_lemma)
~~~
garrepi
Brilliant.
Through the Spotify API we are given locational and positional data on some
music objects. Your proposal to structure songs as vectors opens up a lot more
flexibility for storing, weighting, and manipulating that data.
The way in which the overlaps are calculated is crucial to our platform,
something like feeding the dot product into a weighting matrix would leverage
this structure really well.
Your proposal is very similar to how comparisons are currently computed on
SameTunes. But, leveraging existing mathematical theorems and restructuring
the algorithm with linear algebra in mind would help a ton with some of the
noise and normalisation issues we've experienced.
I really appreciate you taking the time to draft that out!
~~~
LolWolf
For sure! It’s a cool product (I got two people who messaged me about it this
morning, before I even saw it on hn) and it’s pretty fun. Good luck with it!
:)
------
tunesmith
I guess the point is that it compares your favorites with friends, so you can
listen to what your friends are listening to? My friend link is
[https://smtn.es/4973.99538c0985](https://smtn.es/4973.99538c0985) if anyone
wants to try.
------
javier10e6
Any app that wants my personal info to "connect me" from the get go creeps me
out. Spotify already connects me with others. Although I find spotify UI a bit
obtuse and their music suggestions moronic. I would be more interested on a
mobile platform that connects me with independent artists (aka fresh
music)...like Soundcloud combined with music guaranteed to get it right on
suggestions not because some computer algorithm but because they have
competent curators...Like Calmradio.
~~~
garrepi
That's totally fair. I wish Spotify gave us more granularity in the data we
ask for, I don't think we need the blanket permissions a user has to grant us
(as someone who just deleted their Facebook and soon Google accounts, this is
really important to me).
We've reached out to a lot of local artists here in Atlanta and hope to use
the platform to recommend and share their content to those interested.
Hand curating playlists is also a big feature we've been toying with. That's
where something like Apple Music's hand crafted playlists are usually a lot
stronger than Spotify's computed playlists.
I haven't heard of Calmradio, it's exactly what I've been looking for! I've
resorted to listening to music through a cheap FM radio to try and break out
of the algorithm hell Spotify tends to put me in.
Thanks for sharing!
------
solarkraft
Finally. It's such a simple idea, I've been waiting for a long while. Is there
something like this that takes more profiles into consideration?
~~~
garrepi
That's definitely something we're focusing on more now. Like qnsi mentioned,
last.fm does a pretty good job of that -- I've been a fan since high school.
We, SameTunes, have an advantage when it comes to calculating a user's
affinity for songs, artists and albums. Last.fm ranks your music by tracking
how many times you've played (or "scrobbled") a song, songs by an artist, etc.
SameTunes uses additional data Spotify publishes (like position in a created
playlist, occurrences in your liked music, etc) to build a more well rounded
representation of your music taste in the past and present.
There are definitely features we can, and plan to, add to help better portray
this data to a user.
------
vjindal0112
Spent an hour with friends talking about our music because of this :)
------
yipyapyay
Cool idea, I just tried it out. Any reason you used PHP, and I assume a LAMP
stack, instead of something more modern?
~~~
DandyDev
It's interesting that these kind of false premises come up often on HN. Don't
get me wrong, I don't like PHP either, but nowadays. PHP is just as "modern"
as many other languages in use. And with frameworks like Laravel and Symfony,
it stacks up well against the likes of Ruby on Rails, Django or any NodeJS
based stack. And let's not forget that the majority of websites and webapps
runs on PHP.
~~~
yipyapyay
I think that’s totally fair. I have a personal project that I’m getting
started on and I’m having trouble picking a stack to use. I hear a lot of
conflicting opinions on here. I’ve looked through the documentation for newer
frameworks like React and they seem really easy to get started with.
~~~
garrepi
I'm in no place to recommend technologies to chose (I'm no expert) but the
documentation argument is a good one. There are a lot of articles from the
past few decades introducing different odds and ends with PHP. Additionally,
PHPDocs are great but they're nothing in comparison to the tutorials and
examples provided by things like ReactJS' or Vue's official docs.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Adsense banned me while owing me 30k. What could I have done? - m0dE
This actually happened last year. Google banned my Adsense account and never gave me a clear reason why.
I appealed twice, but they rejected both without telling me why.
At this point, I gave up after that reading about how notorious they're being apathetic towards people in my situation. I couldn't find any guideline or stories of people getting anywhere beyond where I was.<p>I was wondering if anyone from HN has gone through something similar, and was able to successfully appealed the ban. Or if they were able to at least escalate their matters to the point where they were able to talk to a human being in Google.<p>My website is www.modd.io. It's a simple HTML5 gaming website. Afaik, I wasn't breaching Adsense's policies.<p>Thanks in advance guys.
======
Eridrus
There was recently a class action over this practice:
[https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/google/google-
agrees-t...](https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/google/google-agrees-to-
pay-11-million-to-owners-of-suspended-adsense-accounts/)
You should act quickly to either submit a claim as part of the settlement, or
exclude yourself from the settlement:
[http://www.adsensepublishersettlement.com/](http://www.adsensepublishersettlement.com/)
I would look over the terms of the settlement and see if they work for you
ASAP, since the deadline is in 3 days.
~~~
m0dE
wow I didn’t know about this. Thanks you. Just out of curiosity, why would one
want to exclude themselves from this settlement?
~~~
Eridrus
If you read the terms and are unhappy enough with them that you would want to
file your own lawsuit, then you should exclude yourself. If you accept the
terms, then you're giving up the right to sue them separately.
------
gesman
This:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17103280](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17103280)
Also this:
[https://pastebin.com/qw3inbz4](https://pastebin.com/qw3inbz4)
[https://pastebin.com/cGGV3kpE](https://pastebin.com/cGGV3kpE)
~~~
jayteescout
Well that sucks...
------
badrabbit
Google is human unfriendly. They only care if their bottom line is in danger.
Make a lot of noise on social media(involve your user base if possible.)
You probably thought of this already but why can't you sue them? Even if you
lose,you might at least get a review of the ban. Do they have a non-
arbitration TOS?
------
anoncoward111
Is it a bad idea to sue? I mean, they're Google, but, if they owed you the
money...?
Just find a friend of a friend who is a lawyer and who will file it for you?
------
zerr
Is it possible to always withdraw funds on the go? Why wait accumulating 30k?
~~~
gesman
Google enforced scheduled payouts to benefit from traffic driven by publishers
but be able to avoid paying off accumulated fees on a short notice with some
standard excuse.
------
marktangotango
Seems like there would be click rings extorting adsense users; pay up or we’ll
get your account banned.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Build It With Me Helps Connect Designers With Developers - transburgh
http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/12/08/build-it-with-me
======
rajeshamara
This one of the crapiest websites I have ever seen. Very slow and horrible
design
~~~
freetard
You're right about it being slow, it's even slow on chromium. I hope it will
improve.
------
bdittmer
I like the idea of connecting designers and developers, although I fear that
"designers" may end up being business folks who simply bring an idea to the
table and nothing else.
------
shaddi
Does anyone know of a similar service to connect designers with developers for
open-source projects?
~~~
kylebragger
not necessarily only for OSS but collabfinder.com
------
ilaksh
I am wondering does anyone get paid for this stuff?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
As Artificial Intelligence Evolves, So Does Its Criminal Potential - tysone
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/24/technology/artificial-intelligence-evolves-with-its-criminal-potential.html
======
hellofunk
You replace "Artificial Intelligence" in this title with nearly anything, and
it will remain true.
~~~
skewart
True. It's not a very good title.
"As drones evolve, so does their criminal potential." Yup. "As electric cars
evolve, so does their criminal potential." Okay, uh, sure, I guess so. "As
turtles evolve, so does their criminal potential." Wait, what?
~~~
placebo
When turtles evolve they become ninja turtles, and if they go bad, well... do
I really need to paint you a picture?
Seriously though, the level of evil that can be perpetrated as technology
evolves is scary and I ask myself sometimes whether humanity's wisdom will
manage to catch up to it's intelligence before it destroys itself in very
creative ways... Though I must admit that criminal AI feels much less
threatening to me than criminal biotechnology.
~~~
TeMPOraL
Criminal AI wielding biotechnology?
Hack into some database to steal bioweapon designs (or invent one by itself),
get a few chemical companies to assemple components, bribe some poor schmuck
into mixing the vials together, boom.
THB though, what I fear is individuals. Humans as a group behave often in
batshit insane ways, but most of the time, they're a peaceful and kind
species. But you always have, by the random lottery of genes and environment,
crazy people. What technology does is magnifying the power a single person can
wield, and thus the damage they can do. Self-replicating stuff is particularly
nasty power amplifier here.
------
geromek
AI is the biggest hype of the moment. It reminds me the film "Eagle Eye"
(2008) where a kind of of Zeroth-law empowered AI wants to assassinate the
president of the US. Despite its incredibly intelligence what I found more
unrealistic was its control of all internet-connected systems in the US
(traffic, remote control drones, phones, different OS, etc) "just because I am
an AI and I can do whatever I want"
For god's shake, it is 2016, we are still unable to have a decent dependency
system for most programming languages. AI is still decades far to rise up
against us.
~~~
greggman
To play devil's advocate. Let's say in 2030 we can fully simulate a human
brain and it works. Let's also assume it runs 10000x faater than wetware (a
highly conservative estimate?). That means in about 1 yr it should be able to
assimilate as much info and experience as a 30yr old human. After that it
could use it's 10000x speed advantage to effeftively have the equivalent of
10000 30yr old hackers looking for exploits in all systems.
I'm not saying that will happen or is even probable but when A.I. Does happen
it's not inconceivable it could easily take over everything. I doubt most
current state actors have 10k engineers looking for exploits. And, with a.i.
that number will only increase as the a.i. is duplicated or expanded.
~~~
Beltiras
General AI like that is not years or decades away. The problem hasn't even
been stated clearly yet. AGI is probably a century away or more. It's not a
resource problem, it's a problem problem. I attended an AGI conference a
couple of years back with the luminaries of AGI attending (held at my alma
mater, University of Reykjavík). The consensus was we didn't even know which
direction to take.
~~~
Voloskaya
The same argument can be used the other way. If we don't even know which
direction to take, what makes you think that AGI is a century or more away?
Say, in 10 years, we better understand the problem we want to solve and the
direction to take, what make you think it would take 90 years to solve, versus
20 or 30?
I think we simply have no idea when this could happen, it could be in 20, it
could be in 200. But one thing is sure, when it will happen, this will have
drastic implications for our society, so why not start thinking about it now,
in case it's 20 and not 200?
~~~
argonaut
"If we don't even know much about our universe, what makes you think that an
alien invasion is a century or more away?"
Yet I don't see us losing our heads over the chance of an alien invasion.
~~~
Voloskaya
Based on the fact that there hasn't been any known alien encouter during human
written history, that we haven't found any artifact of such an event, even in
a distant past, that a 100ly radius is really tiny at the scale of the galaxy,
that we haven't found any sign of life outside earth, and that anyway, if an
alien civ is advanced enough to come here and invade us we can't really hope
to do anything againts that, there is indeed no need to spend time worrying
about that.
Considering the evolution of computing and technology in general in the last
50 years would you consider the two things to be remotely comparable?
I personally don't.
~~~
rdm42116
Neither have we experienced a true AI, and none of the gains in the last 50
years have brought us anything near it, only more advanced computing ability
and "trick" AI.
We just assume technology will improve exponentially based on an extremely
small sample size. Has it never occurred to us that the technology curve may
horizontally asymptotic as opposed to exponential?
The ICE was an amazing piece of technology that grew rapidly, from cars to
military warplanes, to our lawnmowers. Yet we can not make them much more
efficient or powerful without significantly increasing resources and cost. If
you judged the potential of the ICE on the growth it had then, we'd be living
in an efficiency utopia now.
------
nitwit005
I'm not sure they'd bother even if it becomes available.
It doesn't appear that people have had any real difficulty pulling off scams
where they pretend to be the IRS, or Microsoft tech support, or some other
entity to extract money. The AI would only eliminate their call center costs.
~~~
daveguy
Call center and labor costs. Labor is a huge part of any endeavor. Of course
this "AI to human speech interaction" tech would be good enough to pass two
levels above a Turing test (fool a person into believing a program, _using
voice_ and with enough nuance to impersonate _a specific person_ or tight
range of verbal nuance -- grandmas with regional accents). If someone had this
and they're using it for scams then they would quite possibly be the worst
business mind to ever live.
~~~
vinchuco
[https://www.quora.com/Is-there-a-text-that-covers-the-
entire...](https://www.quora.com/Is-there-a-text-that-covers-the-entire-
English-phonetic-range)
It may not require much sampling to impersonate someone's voice based on these
constructs.
------
Mao_Zedang
Security needs to catch up, the fact that IP addresses, caller ID among other
ideas can be faked shows that we have a long way to go to improve peoples
ability to validate the identity/security of communications.
~~~
daveguy
Agreed. This "criminal AI" tack is pure fear mongering. One of their biggest
points was solving human computer voice interaction so you could use it for
automated social engineering.
If you solved that problem you would command Gates/Musk/Bezos levels of wealth
from the _legitimate_ applications.
~~~
Joof
Agreed. Social engineering is pretty difficult when you consider all the
nuances you need to understand to accomplish it well.
~~~
bananarepdev
True, but when it becomes almost inexpensive, it will pay off even with a low
success rate. You would be impressed with how simple some social engineering
schemes are.
------
nurettin
As the number of chandaliers grow, so do their criminal potential.
------
kordless
As AI evolves, so does our government's potential to abuse it to remain in
control.
~~~
Noseshine
I'm actually fine with the government(s) remaining in control. I would fear
the alternatives a lot more.
------
Animats
I'm more worried about corporations run by machine learning systems optimizing
for shareholder value. Somebody with access to YC's data should try training a
classifier to predict YC success. How far away is the first VC fund run by a
machine learning system?
~~~
feelix
YC do use machine learning on applicants to predict success already. They
don't listen solely to it, but they use it as one of their ranking signals to
use google terms.
~~~
dharma1
Interesting. What metrics? Has it worked so far?
~~~
lordnacho
If they tell you that it might not work so well.
There's a saying about good measures ceasing to be so when they become
targets.
~~~
stevetrewick
_Any observed statistical regularity will tend to collapse once pressure is
placed upon it for control purposes_
Goodhart's Law :
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law)
------
rms_returns
Indeed, we haven't got any single positive or altruistic implementation of
anything remotely representing AI yet.
And yet, we have bots, spyware, malware, etc. infecting the IoT devices
already, think what will happen if a more "Evolved AI" attacks these devices
(or even worse, us!)?
------
deftnerd
Time for extrapolation, brain storming, and irrational views of the future.
I remember some years ago reading that many of those social media quizes like
"Which [random TV show] character are you" or "if you were a color, what color
would you be" are run by companies that are slowly aggregating consumer
behavior and background data on everybody.
With access to this database, and a semi-intelligent bot that's been given
instructions, one could build an collection of people who meet certain
criteria.
You could filter people down to determine who is most easily influenced by
peers and have the bot befriend them and act as a peer. This power could be
used to simply influence them to have certain consumer behaviors, or it could
be used to cause online malcontents to move to the real world and take up arms
against governments.
You could filter for people who were "easy targets" to trick them and steal
their life savings, or better yet, convince them to send you their life
savings.
You could run a fake church and find the people easily swayed by your specific
brand of faith or family that they crave.
You could find not just the next lone gunman, you could find a thousand lone
gunmen or bombers and set them off all at the same time against a wide variety
of targets.
You could convince 10,000 people to invest a pittance into a penny stock to
make it soar and cash out.
You could trigger viral boycotts or artificially construct "Grassroots"
organizations.
Similar to a recent Black Mirror episode, you could blackmail people but make
it automated. Bots could scour the internet for "deviant behavior" in safe
pseudo-anonymous communities but connect the profile to real-world profiles
and automate threatening them for some kind of action or payout.
On the other hand, many of these things could also be used for good depending
on your viewpoint. A true believer in a cause might like the ability to easily
find and reach out to people who believe in the same cause to form a
grassroots campaign.
A church with low attendance numbers might be able to find more members for
their flock.
An intelligent bot system with psychological and marketing profiles on
everyone in a country could be used by humanitarians to give certain
categories of people (brave, natural leaders with compassion) the prodding and
emotional support they need to stand up to militants or warlords.
An automated bot that connects pseudo-anonymous identities with real
identities could be used to privately and discretely tell trolls to stop their
negative behavior.
If the tool kits arrive, I anticipate a new wild west of uses... negative,
positive, and purely exploitative.
------
blahi
I am at a point where I feel the need for an addon that blocks everything that
mentions "artificial intelligence".
STOP already! There's no such thing. There won't be such thing. You have 0
idea about what you are talking about.
~~~
vinchuco
Would such an add-on also block these comments?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Want to use my wifi? - rishabhd
https://thejh.net/written-stuff/want-to-use-my-wifi?
======
ivthreadp110
Cleaver Beavers :) Nice read!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: A team management app you can call home - signalhill
https://hiburo.com/blog/2014/01/13/hiburo-ready/
======
lauriswtf
If you have any questions, feedback or wonders, feel free to ask here.
// One of the co-founders
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: Pictorical, Crowd-illustrated books startup - cuchoperl
http://pictorical.com
======
cuchoperl
Hello, we want to share with the HN community our startup, Pictorical.
We are two nomadic entrepreneurs from Chile, and a growing community of
artists worldwide. We illustrate classic stories, publish them as ebooks (in
Apple iBookstore- Kindle and Google coming soon) and sharing the profits with
the artists fifty-fifty. Artists then can earn money doing art, thats quite
difficult for them.
We look forward to your constructive feedback!
~~~
nandemo
Saludos!
Great idea. The book covers on the front page look nice too.
1) $0.99? Why so cheap? For reference the Kindle edition of "A Hunger Artist"
costs $2.99.
2) Any plans of selling dead-tree books using a print-on-demand service like
Lulu? Some of us still like the feeling of good old paper books. I realize it
might be much more expensive but with print-on-demand you have little risk.
~~~
cuchoperl
Hola!
1\. We will probably be selling longer books a little bit more expensive. We
can't forget we are competing against free ebooks!
2\. Yes, we will sell illustrated paper books in the near future. And also
t-shirts and all sort of things with your favorite illustrations.
Thanks for the feedback!
~~~
petervandijck
If you're selling books, you're not competing against free ebooks. People who
buy free ebooks are not necessarily the same people that pay money for books.
------
nonrecursive
From the screenshots, the quality looks incredible. How long have you been
developing the site?
A couple additions that I think would improve the site:
* A "coming soon" section
* A link to the artist's web site
* Artist bio
The design of the site itself was very nice, too.
Good luck!
~~~
cuchoperl
Thank you! We did the website itself in 3 days. The company, business model,
publishing platform, payment system etc we have been working on it for 6
months part-time and since december full-time.
The coming soon section is a good idea, maybe we can do a "work in progress"
where artists show sketches of their illustrations and future readers can
comment on them.
The bio and portfolios are coming soon!
Thanks for the compliments on the design... I did it myself and I'm an
engineer so I need a little of reassurance there :)
------
vessenes
Oh wow, these look lovely. I will try out with my kids tomorrow, and report
back.
p.s. First Chile startup post I've seen on HN, did you take some of the
government money that's been much in the press?
~~~
cuchoperl
Yes, please tell me if your kids like them. Would be good field-testing ;)
~~~
vessenes
OK, we bought Rapunzel.
The good -- my five year old daughter loved the illustrations, she thought
they were cute and rated the book '5 stars' when I asked her to rate it 1 - 5.
The bad -- the illustrations are placed in funny spots from my perspective;
many of them give away bits of the story, and are placed before the text. This
is fine for an adult who knows the story, but it ruined some of the fun for
her, since she only kind of knows the story.
The weird -- one of the illustrations, the one showing the prince's eyes
getting healed -- showed up once, then disappeared and would not re-render; I
tried changing fonts, orientation, etc. No go; he's missing. But I'm sure I
saw him!!
Overall, fun, and we'll buy another one. A little more time on the layout side
of life would have made it a more fun experience. Thanks for getting the
artists together, I'm glad to have some classics with fresh illustrations.
~~~
cuchoperl
Many thanks for sharing your experience :)
About where to place the illustrations: That's a great challenge for us. We
are trying to get as much feedback as possible from kids, dads, professional
storytellers, psychologists, writers, professors etc, to learn where's the
best spot to place the illustration. There's no consensus, but we hope to have
a formed opinion soon.
About the layouts: iBooks renders EPUBs in a funny way. We have improved many
times the way illustrations are formatted each time updating our books in the
iBookstore. We are in the process of updating once again our styling template,
using new CSS3 properties supported by iBooks. We are learning along the way
and improving our books a lot! (If you send me an email to victor at
pictorical com I will send you an updated version of Rapunzel when we have it
ready.)
Thanks for buying the book, supporting Paola and giving us feedback. Please do
a "like" to Paola (the Chilean artist who draw Rapunzel) to send her thanks.
------
derrida
How do the artists make money? I hope you are part of the solution, too many
operators think they can get art for free by throwing the lable "emergent" in
front of "artist".
~~~
cuchoperl
The artists get half of the profits i.e. half of the money that we receive
from the store. So, for a $1.99 book, Apple will get $0.59, the artist $0.70
and we get $0.70.
------
egypturnash
This is a pretty cool idea! I'm more an artist than a programmer, so I could
see myself maybe using this. I keep on thinking about doing my own edition of
_Alice in Wonderland_...
Do you have plans to hook this up to Amazon as well? I'm nerdy enough to
consider doing the markup myself, but if you can automate sending stuff to
multiple formats that would start to make it worth half the profits for me.
~~~
cuchoperl
We are now working on the Kindle conversion, and we will have it -hopefully-
by late May. And also in a print-on-demand hook so you can sell paper (or
dead-tree) books in Amazon as well.
------
ruchi
Congrats, it looks great! Another revenue stream could be offering a
customized book based on customer submitted story.
~~~
cuchoperl
That's a great idea, thanks Ruchi!
------
bugsy
This is a great idea and I know it is going to be successful. Please fix your
typography though by using balanced ‘single’ and “double” quotes and right-
single-quote for apostrophes such as in it’s. It does not look professional to
have typewriter style quotes.
~~~
cuchoperl
Great feedback, I will check the quotes. Thanks bugsy.
------
acabal
This is a great idea, and the books look beautiful. I'd suggest making the
site title a horizontal header and lining up the books under that, instead of
having two columns. But then again I'm not a designer either. Good luck!
~~~
cuchoperl
Thanks! I will try that tomorrow. Thanks for the good wishes.
------
schultzi
Way cool! This must be the best way I have seen for new artists to get their
foot in the door. A great way to build a community around it might be to let
users vote on future artist/book pairings.
~~~
maukoquiroga
Thanks schultzi. That's kind of a great idea!
------
lazylland
Simple and Amazing at the same time : Congratulations ! I have a feeling that
there are going to be some copycat businesses soon, but still wish you all the
best !
~~~
cuchoperl
Thank you! Please help us to spread the word :)
------
petervandijck
That is AWESOME! Congrats. I think it's a fantastic idea.
~~~
cuchoperl
Thanks Peter! Please help us to spread the word :)
~~~
petervandijck
Tweeted.
~~~
cuchoperl
Cheers!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Are SF and NY the best cities for programming jobs? - Onixelen
======
segmondy
All you need is one job. One solid reliable job. Find that job in any city you
like and you have found the best city for the programming job you like.
This is my own personal disclaimer, I don't believe in seeking "fun jobs." I
believe in bringing fun into my work environment, whatever the hell it is. If
I'm writing Cobol, Java, Python, a book, cooking or mowing the lawn. Find a
way to make it a joy!
I also believe that you should make the most of the city you live in.
With that said, I'm in Detroit, having a grand time both in the city and with
my tech job. :-D So, go find your best city and your best job!
~~~
lightonphiri
> I also believe that you should make the most of the city you live in.
Care to talk more about this. I know it might seem obvious, but I would really
love to hear how you make the most of living in Detroit for instance.
~~~
segmondy
It's like any city, there are tons to do. When we talk about Detroit, we talk
about the Detroit Greater Area, not just the city of Detroit. But all the
cities around it.
There is an awesome tech scene here too, Detroit downtown is bubbling with a
lot of startups, and we interact with the scene in Grand Rapids and Ann Arbor.
Lots of tech meetups.
If nightlife is your thing, there are tons of places for that from Windsor,
Ontario which is just across the river, to Royal Oak, Rochester, Birmingham,
Dearborn.
If you're a foodie, there are tons of great restaurants out here, my favorite
are the hole in the wall spots with great and cheap food. Tons of farmer's
markets if buying fresh and preparing a meal is yours.
Lots of golf courses, Michigan ranks #6 by golf.com. If water is your thing,
there are lot's of waters, boating is big. Michigan has always been the #1
country by boat registrations in the US until California just took over, we
are still #2.
Big on sports, we have an NFL team, NBA team, NHL, MLB and of course college
sports team, we have Univeristy of Michigan and Michigan state with great
teams.
Proximity to other places is not too bad, 4 hrs drive to Toronto, 4hrs drive
to Chicago, 3 hrs to Columbus or Cleveland.
Cost of living can be cheap, you can buy a $50,000 4 bedroom house or a
million dollar 4 bedroom house. If you are wise and buy in the cheap areas,
you can save a lot of money for your future.
------
chatmasta
I've lived in both -- SF for an internship and NYC as a startup cofounder for
a year.
Coming from a university where 90% of people go into banking (NYC), and as
someone who has never really enjoyed socializing with computer science people
outside of work, I prefer NYC to SF. It's nice to leave work and chill with
people of a different variety than I interact with all day. No talking shop,
just hanging out with friends.
There's no shortage of programming jobs in either city, and the salaries minus
cost of living are roughly equal. The biggest difference to me is that SF is a
monoculture centered around tech, whereas NYC has a couple different
monocultures, banking being the dominant one.
I really despise monocultures in general so I like that NYC has options to
choose from. Also, lots of my friends live there.
All that said, I'm now a "digital nomad" traveling the world and switching
cities every month. I am 100x happier now than I was in either NYC or SF.
------
marssaxman
I'm surprised to hear you mention NY in the same context as SF. Has it really
come up so much? I'm willing to believe they've developed a respectable
industry out there, but so far as I have heard it's mostly just financial and
ad industry stuff, nothing terribly interesting.
~~~
chatmasta
There are a lot of startups in NYC. Also, if you want to found a startup,
there's a lot of capital and the angel scene is quite big.
Digitalocean is a good counter example to your stereotype of NYC companies.
------
lazyant
Define "best". There's a lifestyle associated to those cities that not
everybody prefers.
~~~
Onixelen
It should have a good support system for you as a programmer (lots of
programming related meetup, etc) and lots of other programmers.
~~~
rgovind
Then yes, SF/Silicon valley is the place for such things. Don't know about NYC
~~~
aminorex
You could not attend half of the tech meetups in NYC. Columbia, NYU, CUNY,
Cornell, SUNY Stony Brook -- Boston is a 30 minute shuttle flight from LGA --
indeed the whole Ivy league plus CMU, MIT, Northeastern, BU &c., are handy, so
a lot of innovation is going on. And most of the money is here.
That said, Seattle has to be in the running.
------
zer00eyz
Depends on what you want to do both have strong market demand for very
different sorts of programers.
Do you want to work on the web or on a mobile app then SF is the place to be.
There is also tons of Machine Learning, and infrastructure companies in SF.
Do you want to work in financial services (market related, not personal as
much)? Then go to NYC!
Can you be a web guy in NYC or a financial services guy in sf?You sure can,
but each is the land of opportunity for a certain category of programer.
------
blabla_blublu
Best, in terms of what?
In terms of volume of jobs - definitely and as @lazyant mentioned, there's a
great support network that comes with it.
If you measure 'best' by quality of jobs, I would agree as well.
Other cities which you may want to check out are Seattle, Austin, Dallas which
have a chunk of 'good' jobs as well!
------
jotux
This popped up recently: [https://www.glassdoor.com/blog/25-best-paying-
cities-softwar...](https://www.glassdoor.com/blog/25-best-paying-cities-
software-engineers/)
Which compares cost of living to wages to number of jobs.
------
isuckatcoding
Also depends on your experience. Junior/Entry-level positions _can_ be harder
to come by in SF. Then again, I am just biased since I've been looking since
February.
------
gravypod
Depending on the industry you can find jobs in different places.
You have medical and defense that is far from solely represented in the Valley
and New York areas.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Tired? The importance of letting ideas marinate and percolate through sleep - robg
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/28/technology/28proto.html?ref=business
======
SapphireSun
After spending 8 years not getting any sleep, I finally realized that I'm more
efficient with real sleep. I finally wised up. In retrospect, my dumbest
mistakes have mostly been due to being chronically sleep deprived. Amongst
engineers and scientists, a lack of sleep is a point of pride. We feel like
those stupid liberal arts majors are getting no real work done and that we're
tired because we are. Whether the conjecture about liberal arts majors is
correct, the sleep part is wrong. I'm so much more efficient now that I'm
getting more sleep. I've been trying to get my friends to sleep more, but
we'll see how that goes....
~~~
menloparkbum
artists, musicians, writers and soldiers also get macho about sleep
deprivation. I'm not sure if they really fall into what people mean when they
talk disparagingly about the "liberal arts." It would seem strange to stay up
for days reading sociology textbooks.
------
beaudeal
I just started reading 'Founders at Work' and find it kind of funny that they
cite Steve Jobs in this article, when during his interview, Woz said that some
of their best ideas (when building Apple) came after several days of not
sleeping.
~~~
bootload
_"... Woz said that some of their best ideas (when building Apple) came after
several days of not sleeping ..."_
Don't confuse working on a problem for a long time, understanding it very
clearly with having the idea in your head and regurgitating a solution in one
long stint. Woz emphasized this in his 2005 Startup School talk. Understanding
an idea so completely in your head you can simplify it no more.
~~~
beaudeal
I'm not confusing anything, just restating what he said in his interview with
Jessica. The actual quote is "When you get very, very tired -- and I had been
up for four nights all night long; Steve and I got mononucleosis -- your head
gets in this real creative state and it thinks of ideas that you'd normally
just throw out."
------
vlad
Bodybuilders and weightlifters know that muscle grows in one's sleep. I think
the key to working on anything into the night is following up with lots of
sleep. That way, one gets the benefit of both sleep and sleep deprivation.
Every once in a while in the past, when I was working on my own project, I've
done it to the point where I would sleep from 2am to 1pm, and the next time
living in the dark for a day due to going to bed around sunrise (5am) and
waking up at sundown (6pm), and so on. Eventually, I would have a normal
schedule again. :) This was when my only focus was on writing code for my
software and working out, period. Since my software became better every week,
and I grew stronger, bigger, and faster as well, my goals were pretty much met
and I was happy.
I like my current life as a student, due to the social aspect of learning
from, and working with, others. But I am nowhere near as productive at
developing my own software on a daily basis nor working out as I was when
those were my only two goals. However, I understand that it has only been a
few weeks, and I will be able to figure out how to introduce software and
personal development into my schedule as I get more used to the demands of my
classes. And even though I won't be able to dedicate as much time as I could
before, I have the experience and confidence to get in shape and create
software more efficiently, as well as the benefit of a being around lots of
potential users.
~~~
randallsquared
I've done this, and find that it works really poorly for me. If I'm not going
to bed at roughly the same time and getting up at roughly the same time, I
just stay muddled all day, even when I'm technically getting ~8 hours. If I
stay on a schedule, I wake up without an alarm after 6-7 hours and I'm fully
awake all day.
------
wheels
While I agree with the message of the article -- sleep can be really
productive, the assumption with the connection to entrepreneurship seems to be
that creativity is the key to success. At least at the point we're at, while
creativity is not to be underrated, mostly it's just a mountain of stuff to
get done and most of it less than brainiac work.
------
rkowalick
As an undergraduate math major with plenty of difficult classes, I have
discovered the power of sleep in solving problems. I have spent hours and
hours on a problem to no avail. I then fall asleep and the next morning I
solve it very quickly. Amazing stuff.
~~~
eru
Von Neumann used to prove theorems in his sleep.
So sleeping did not impede him working 24 hours a day. It actually helped.
~~~
albertcardona
I agree. For me the trick is to balance: you can sleep 4 hours a day for
several days, _but only after having slept very well for several days_. A.k.a.
resting periods alternated with high tension, full-speed periods [in the order
of days, not weeks].
------
rtf
Some problems become easier when I'm sleepy because I can't think as clearly
but I start to focus very well.
Other problems demand several passes of experimentation. For those it's easier
to try a quick test during the day, think about it while doing other things,
and then wake up with the (possible) solution the next day.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Hacker News Meetup Cologne Hostile Takeover - bitboxer
http://www.meetup.com/Cologne-Startup-Pitch-Night/messages/boards/thread/28544502
======
blacktar
The backstory is that I, Vidar Andersen, the original initiator of the Cologne
meetup - initially make a mistake.
I made a mistake in not updating my payment details before my credit card
expired earlier this year. Meetup.com then automatically stepped me down as an
organizer and mailed the group that I had stepped down as an organizer. IMO
that's a pretty lame way of doing business, but hey, it's their business and
not mine. Apparently it works for them.
Then I tried to update my payment details with new credit card details to no
avail. It just wasn't possible to make meetup.com accept any new credit card
for me anymore. I was only getting error messages. I then contacted Meetup.com
and notified them about the situation.
At that same time, I asked co-organizer Francis to and add a credit card to
automatically take over as organizer for me and reinstate my organizer status.
Said. Done. Problem solved, right? Not so fast.
In the meantime, meetup.com got back to me and revoked Francis' status and
gave the organizer status back to me with a kind offer of an extended new
grace period as organizer to sort the payment issue out. Meanwhile, I was
still unable to update my payment details and add any new credit card
credentials without getting error messages and I notified Meetup.com of this.
I have still yet to hear back from them on that.
It's worth noting that had meetup.com just left it as it were with Francis'
payment details as the organizer, we wouldn't have been in this predicament in
the first place.
Yesterday when the group had yet to expire and I had yet to hear back from
meetup.com on my latest issue report, the Hacker News Cologne Meetup group was
taken over by an unknown individual. Or in meetup.com's parlance, someone
"stepped up to be the organizer" of the group.
I immediately reached out to this person informing them of the payment issue
situation, thanking them for stepping up but informing them that it was
neither needed or wanted, offering to resolve the ownership issue amicably and
in private as soon as possible. I never heard back.
In stead I woke up to what now seems to be a blatant attempt to aggressively
acquire customers for their event(s). The name, logo and purpose of the group
had been changed to something completely different.
Then mass mailings started to arrive from the person who had taken over our
group accusing, us the real organizers, of lying and trying to change the
group [back to the original state]. Needless to say, we do not agree.
As I scrambled to counter the accusations and inform the group's members, we
the original organizers were getting our organizer status removed from this
individual. We were also barred from mailing to the group without censorship
and approval by the same individual. Needless to say, those messages did not
come through to the group. Then I posted the same messages to the group's
message boards, just to find the hijacker removing the boards altogether. In a
matter of minutes we were effectively shut out, unable to communicate with the
community over meetup.com.
So that's where we're at right now. We the original Hacker News Cologne Meetup
organizers are completely out of control of our own community platform on
meetup.com. We've filed a complaint with meetup.com to resolve the situation
and it is still pending a reply. And yes, we do appreciate the sweet irony of
a hacker group hacked as we move on.
We apologize for the intermission and it's now back to business as usual:
We'll meet up again on schedule with two awesome new speakers lined up for you
at SolutionSpace, November 28th 1900 CET.
This time we are relying on you instead of meetup.com to get the word out. You
know what to do.
~~~
bitboxer
I was removed from the group, too.
~~~
blacktar
Let's get everybody to leave the meetup.com group.
~~~
bitboxer
That Women deactivated the feature to see who is a member of that group. We
can't contact all of them, only the people we know. Manually.
~~~
blacktar
First thing I did was to save the members list. :) I've already reached out to
99% percent of the members but we still need everybody's help getting the word
out: <http://hncgn.org>
------
c1sc0
Co-organizer here (Francis). We're dealing with it. In the meantime we would
like to ask everyone to refrain from public attacks on this Meredith character
who took over the group. Of course the Hacker News Meetup is still on & we'll
announce a new date through non-meetup.com channels soon!
------
c1sc0
We're trying to get this message out while we resolve this, please help us
spread it!
Guys,
As you may know, today the Hacker News Cologne Meetup.com group got hijacked.
That doesn't mean it's not business as usual, though: The next meetup is
scheduled for 1900 hrs CET @ Solution Space on Nov 28th and we have a new
exciting special guest from the US on Skype and a YCombinator alum who will be
joining us IRL to share from his experiences with us.
We're resolving the meetup.com hijacking farce in a civilized manner, so it
would be cool if:
1) We all refrain from personal attacks on the hijacker
2) We all help spread this message far & wide. We personally can’t reach
everyone directly, but hey, this is the intarwebs and you know better than us
how to get the word out to the right people.
We will discuss and decide on an alternative to Meetup.com during our next IRL
meetup.
Cheers, The Crew (Francis, Vidar & Maik … the original HN Meetup Cologne
Organizers)
------
bitboxer
Okay, the link is now dead. A women called Meredith did a hostile takeover of
the hacker news cologne meetup group and renamed it. She removed Vidar, the
main organizer from the Admin list and now has full controll of the meetup
group.
This is outrages that it is even possible to do this.
~~~
dbaupp
It doesn't look dead for me: it's now called "Startup Pitch Night".
~~~
bitboxer
The link was to a public post on that group that described the situation. That
post was removed as was the complete discussion and mailing list
~~~
dbaupp
Oh, I see!
------
blacktar
Hi, Vidar, the original co-organizer here. We're on top of the situation and
will be announcing the next Hacker News Meetup Cologne tomorrow. In the
meantime, it would be cool if everybody refrains from personal attacks on
Meredith. It seems she's a real person. Let's keep it nice and clean.
------
blacktar
It seems there was a concerted effort to take over the meetup.com group where
the hijacker joined with two profiles in two steps with a clear intent of a
hostile takeover.
First they joined with one (profile X) to listen in, then a second (profile Y)
with the same name when the group was about to expire. Then profile Y "stepped
up" to take over the group and delegated org status to profile X too.
They then later removed profile X completely, leaving only Y (all the time
profile X and Y identically named, identically looking) as the organizer.
The timing of the events as observed seem to support this thesis.
(Update). Doing some testing, we also found it quite easy to find expiring
meetup.com groups in public, e.g.
[https://www.google.com/search?q=%22This+Meetup+no+longer+has...](https://www.google.com/search?q=%22This+Meetup+no+longer+has+an+Organizer.+Without+an+Organizer%2C+it+will+disappear+from+our+website+in+15+day\(s\).%22&oq=%22This+Meetup+no+longer+has+an+Organizer.+Without+an+Organizer%2C+it+will+disappear+from+our+website+in+15+day\(s\).%22&aqs=chrome.0.57.1283&sugexp=chrome,mod=14&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&sclient=psy-
ab&q=site:meetup.com+%22This+Meetup+no+longer+has+an+Organizer%22&oq=site:meetup.com+%22This+Meetup+no+longer+has+an+Organizer%22&gs_l=serp.3...6015.6015.3.6993.1.1.0.0.0.0.82.82.1.1.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.t0LgJRIbgAU&pbx=1&fp=1&bpcl=37643589&biw=1440&bih=760&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&cad=b&sei=gOCaUIaaDcGa0QWTlIEI)
------
blacktar
It would be cool if everybody who posted the URL to the previous Hacker News
Cologne meetup.com group on their blogs or profiles would update it to
<http://hncgn.org> and help reach out to everybody informing them of the
change. Thanks!
------
ghurlman
I just want to caution folks that whoever did this using this "Meredith"
account is not necessarily (and most likely is not) Meredith, the person. It's
much more likely that a hacked account would be used to do something malicious
like this.
~~~
veemjeem
This "Meredith" also runs these meetup groups as well:
<http://www.meetup.com/San-Francisco-Startup-Pitch-Night>
<http://www.meetup.com/Chicago-Startup-Pitch-Night>
<http://www.meetup.com/New-York-Startup-Pitch-Night>
She's also a member of multiple meetup groups in NYC, so my guess is that
she's likely a real person who lives in NYC, but just happens to want to be an
admin for other meetup groups in random cities.
This was found by simply doing a reverse image search of her profile picture
on google images.
She also the organizer of Startup Pitch Night, which explains her meetup
affiliations. Her full LinkedIn profile can be found here:
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/meredithmonroe>
(the profile used the same profile photo found on meetup.com)
~~~
c1sc0
Yes, I saw that but it does not help me understand _why_ someone would want to
do something like this. That being said, the best approach right now is to
consider the Meetup.com null & void for the purpose of "Hacker News Cologne
Meetup". We'll discuss alternatives IRL during the next meetup. (see post
above)
~~~
veemjeem
I think it's fairly obvious why someone would do this? Suppose you want to
create an event that happens to have a similar audience as those who might
attend a Hacker News meetup. Now you can create a marketing message to those
people without spending any effort in recruiting members. It's easier to do a
hostile takeover than trying to create a meetup event from scratch.
In a way, it's like buying a very targeted email list.
However, I'm sure there will probably be a backlash in this case, and I doubt
Meredith would show up at any of these events because she'll probably get
stoned to death there.
~~~
c1sc0
Exactly what I was thinking & what got me worried: why do this if your
intentions are honest? I hope this is just a terrible case of bad judgement.
We may be pirates, but we gave up stoning a while ago. May I suggest a good
discussion over a glass of Koelsch instead? I know who'll be buying!
------
blacktar
Update: Meetup.com support finally got back to me and is now working to
restore the group, fully or in part depending on the damage done. Before we
rush to conclusions, please consider that no decision has been made to
continuing using meetup.com as the community platform. That's up to you to
decide at the next meetup. As Apple says, "We like to have options". ;)
~~~
bitboxer
I hope they remove that Meredith Character completely from Meetup.com and
change the policies to prevent hostile group takeovers in the future.
~~~
blacktar
We are also in touch with the dev people at meetup.com voicing our concerns
about the ease of automated group scavenging. ;)
------
blacktar
For HNCGN people stumbling on this thread, I've posted an official
announcement of the next and 11th Hacker News Meetup Cologne
[http://stopmebeforeiblogagain.com/hacker-news-cologne-
meetup...](http://stopmebeforeiblogagain.com/hacker-news-cologne-meetup/)
------
blacktar
This just in. The name of the hijacked group is now "Hacker News - Deleting -
Documented extreme libel by members" and the "Meredith" character has removed
their profile image.
Keep calm and carry on.
------
blacktar
And it's gone. <http://www.meetup.com/Hacker-News-Cologne/> == "The Meetup
Group you're looking for doesn't exist."
~~~
bitboxer
Have you been contacted by meetup.com till now? Why don't they react on this
shit?
~~~
blacktar
meetup.com has a 36h reply policy and to their credit, they did get back to us
well within that trime frame now and we're now working to have the group
restored.
------
blacktar
And we're back in control at the original meetup.com group.
Guys, thanks for your support and thanks to the guys at meetup.com com for
handing the group back to the community.
------
Eduard
This submission got a sudden drop in ranking.
<http://hnrankings.info/4754269/>
~~~
blacktar
I noticed. What do you think caused the drop?
~~~
Eduard
One reason could be someone with downvoting rights downvoted this to oblivion.
~~~
blacktar
I don't see why someone would use their admin privileges to downvote this
thread, though. Maybe just the effect of falling off the front page? We had no
intentions of making this public ourselves (as to avoid feeding the troll) and
we're just trying to get our perspective of the situation across now that the
cat is out of the bag here.
------
Eduard
Now I got kicked out of the group as well.
~~~
blacktar
Were there any further messages or mails sent from the new "organizer"?
~~~
Eduard
No, just a generic "You were removed from this group" Meetup message.
~~~
blacktar
And now I was removed too. Yay.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
New Type of Dementia Identified - open-source-ux
https://www.nhs.uk/news/neurology/new-type-dementia-identified/
======
JPLeRouzic
TDP-43 abnormal bodies are present in cytoplasm in almost all CNS diseases.
Other proteins bodies are present as well. Some publications tell TDP-43
bodies are not the cause of the diseases, but some consequence, in a similar
way to amyloid bodies.
One thought I read recently told that the aging people (from who I belong)
have multiple conditions and it is difficult to heal one condition
independently of the others.
~~~
mirimir
Medicine is _hard_. Diseases have typically been defined based on symptoms,
plus available diagnostic tests. But with no reliable tests, you're left with
basically "collections of symptoms". So this is progress.
------
newsbinator
> Researchers say it may explain why some recent trials of treatments for
> Alzheimer's disease have been unsuccessful.
> They say treatments may have effectively treated the proteins that cause
> damage in Alzheimer's disease, but LATE may have continued, masking any
> improvements to Alzheimer's symptoms.
------
ralusek
Of all of the possible ailments, I hope that this class of issues is resolved
by the time I'm older.
~~~
shrimp_emoji
Surely heart disease and cancer are higher priority[0].
0:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_causes_of_death_by_rat...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_causes_of_death_by_rate)
~~~
sampleinajar
For some, I imagine death is preferable to dementia.
~~~
Nasrudith
To be frank dementia is death but fuzzier and more drawn out. I know fron
experience with Alzheimer'd in family - it is a loss of self such that by the
end they were effectively dead for years - just confused remnants of
personality and inability to interact meaningfully - it is horrifying. At
least when someone in your family gets hit by a truck you know when you lost
them.
~~~
cogman10
Yeah. I don't think people who haven't experienced it know how bad it is. My
grandmother had dementia and by the end she didn't know who my mother (her
daughter) was.
I just can't think of a worse fate not just for the suffer, but for those that
love them. It is a constant painful and sad reminder for loved ones to
interact with them.
I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
~~~
wdb
You can't imagine how much joy it gives you when your father suddenly screams
out your name when you visit him after years of not calling your name. He had
Alzheimer's too
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Unix turns 40: The past, present and future of a revolutionary OS - samueladam
http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=printArticleBasic&taxonomyName=Operating+Systems&articleId=9133570&taxonomyId=89
======
jganetsk
"Not only is UNIX dead, it's starting to smell really bad." -Rob Pike, circa
1991
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Predator Drones being used domestically against Americans - ck2
http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/la-na-drone-arrest-20111211,0,5744305,full.story
======
mindcrime
So, who wants to work on a project to build an open-source drone that can
shoot one of these things down? I mean, seriously, if the government can have
this technology, then We The People should be able to arm ourselves with
counter-measures, no?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: let's build a list of reasons why startups fail - Lucadg
I am writing a business plan for a new idea of mine.
After all the reasons why this is the best idea ever and countless industries are going to be disrupted I am now writing "what could go wrong".
This is the sad part but it has to be done.
I have already several reasons in my list and I'd like to ask you here for some more.
In the process let's build a list useful for all of us in the future.
For this reason I won't even bother you with my "great idea" so we avoid "idea specific" failure reasons.
I'll start with some obvious ones in my list:<p>* Nobody (or too few) need it<p>* Somebody needs it but won't pay/pay enough for it<p>* Budget underestimated (you needed more than that and you did not know it)<p>* Unproved assumptions ("we were sure it would go viral" / "critical mass is at X")<p>* Critical mass was higher than expected<p>* Somebody else is doing that already, better than you<p>* The big players see what you do, like it, and replicate it very fast. You're out<p>...and I am sure there's many more.<p>If we build this list properly it may be quite useful!
======
mswen
Enterprise executives can love your innovative enterprise service but inertia
among managers and staff who are needed for adoption may outlast your runway
------
mswen
Advanced technology can easily be too early from a market adoption perspective
------
Lucadg
thanks, good ones! It seems I can't edit my first message to add them.
------
sharemywin
internal issues. people issues. cofounders infighting.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Run Google Play on an emulator and pretend to be any device - wallflower
http://blog.apkudo.com/2012/08/08/run-google-play-on-an-emulator-and-pretend-to-be-any-device/
======
GooseEye3
The dastardly Error 491!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Neanderthal 0.9.0 – Clojure high-performance computing is getting into shape - dragandj
http://dragan.rocks/articles/17/Neanderthal-090-released-Clojure-high-performance-computing
======
dragandj
The author here. I'll be happy to help you getting started, or answer your
questions here.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
U.S. student debt: $966B as of Q4, 2012 - Q6T46nT668w6i3m
http://newyorkfed.org/newsevents/mediaadvisory/2013/Lee022813.pdf
======
pash
As of last December, there is another repayment option geared toward the
enterprising (or not) Hacker News sort, at least those not yet flush with
cash. The Pay As You Earn option [0] allows you to pay no more than 10% of
your _discretionary_ income, over a twenty-year window. The balance beyond
that will be forgiven.
In most circumstances, you'll end up paying less under this plan than under
other payment plans contingent on income. In fact, if you have no income while
you're starting your startup, you'll owe nothing. This is pretty much always a
better option than getting a forbearance or doing one of the other payment
options [1, 2], at least until you realize your millions.
The qualifying criteria are really the sticking point. Please post your
questions, concerns, tax advice, etc., below. None of this is straightforward,
and I'm sure I have as much to learn about this as the rest of you. ...
0\. [http://studentaid.ed.gov/repay-loans/understand/plans/pay-
as...](http://studentaid.ed.gov/repay-loans/understand/plans/pay-as-you-earn)
1\. Only recent borrowers qualify for this option. If you don't qualify, look
into consolidating your loans through the Dept. of Education, then applying
for the PAYE repayment plan on the consolidated loan.
2\. The NYT has a good summary:
[http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/01/opinion/relief-for-
student...](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/01/opinion/relief-for-student-
borrowers-in-pay-as-you-earn.html)
~~~
esurc
The devil is in the details (the last bullet point on your first link):
> You may have to pay taxes on any loan amount that is forgiven after 20
> years.
Roughly: the more student loan payments are reduced now, the more the borrower
will pay in federal income taxes later.
The unpaid portion of the loans will be accumulating at least some interest
until forgiven. Forgiveness of that remaining balance would (under today's
law) trigger a significant tax event for the borrower.
~~~
jbooth
Like with every kind of income, getting the income and paying 30-40% tax on it
is vastly better than not getting the income.
But yeah, that's a big chunk of money to have to come up with all at once in a
given year.
------
OldSchool
The reason for this problem is so transparent it's laughable: easy access to
borrowed money naturally creates inflation in the target market until heavy
borrowing becomes the norm. It happens again and again throughout history.
The only way to be truly on the risk-free side of this one though is to own a
school.
As a principle, I would downsize or mortgage my house before I'd send my
children into the world as debt slaves. For their part, there are plenty of
state-funded schools where tuition is 10K/yr or less.
The whole thing is backwards: these lenders and schools are businesses and
should be marketing and selling you their product, not forcing you to "apply."
If foreigners have the means to pay non-resident costs to attend our public
schools, then I see no problem at all selling them an education. Giving them
grants in lieu of citizens is just bad practice. Lending them money is bad
risk management.
~~~
orofino
This is subjective, but I think you're wrong.
Having debt isn't a bad ting, crippling debt is of course, but I graduated
with over 40k in debt and it forced me learn things like prioritization and
budgeting. It also gives you a sense of urgency about finishing school.
Most parents aren't saving enough for their own retirement as it is. They
should NOT be going further into debt for their kid's college. The kids can
get loans for school, the parents can't get loans for retirement.
Parents should save as much as they reasonably can to help kids through
college, but the child needs to shoulder some of the burden as well.
~~~
OldSchool
I see your point. Students having some 'skin in the game' is very valuable.
I find the rules surrounding the debt far more disturbing than the average
amount carried by graduates, which really only amounts to the cost of one
typical family car. When you read about people falling on hard times and their
debt being tripled by collection agencies with no way out because of
bankruptcy laws, its hard not to view it as one more lobbyist-created
situation that favors the banking industry.
------
tomjen3
Part of the problem is that people have gotten the idea that they have to go
to college, but still think they can major in whatever they want.
90% of everything is crap, this applies to degrees as well. Go to uni to
become a doctor, layer, mathematician, programmer, etc. Fine.
Go there to study hotel management, English literature, Womens rights,
Communication?
Except a rip off.
~~~
NoahTheDuke
Haha "Women's Rights"
Glad to know the STEM jerk is going strong here also.
~~~
tomjen3
I meant womens studies.
I don't even care if they take it, I just don't want them to complain that
they then can't get a job using that degree.
------
wjnc
That is the next debt crisis coming up. Only difference... normal people don't
get bailouts.
~~~
petercooper
As a non American, is US student debt repayment linked to income? Or is it a
more typical type of debt that could swallow up incomes in the event of
deflation?
Here in the UK, you have to earn over the equivalent of $26k per year to start
paying it back and then it's 9% of your income over that. I believe it is then
written off after 30 years. So the risk of a crisis in this version of the
system is low since the terms are so generous.
~~~
zanny
As a recent CS grad who had around $20k of debt (and 16k of that is now paid
off 9 months later) the terms are not generous. I had to take subsidized
stafford loans each year just to qualify for my state grant, since it was
supposed to be "needs based". My last loan is only 3.5% interest though, so
I'm taking my time on it.
The other poster covers it in greater detail, but after 6 months they expect
payments, and deferring them only lasts so long (and I don't know how long).
And you can't ever get rid of them.
The answer still isn't to bail everyone out. It just perpetuates the problem.
If higher education is to be a for profit business (at least in many cases)
you can't create artificial lending markets like student loans, it just causes
the absurd bubble that has popped up in the US. It should be flat "heres the
cost, go try to get a loan for it" like you would a car or house. When the
government starts handing out free money no questions asked with a repayment
plan, schools just pile that on top of their tuition fees as profit.
It doesn't hurt that we really should be looking to having online
certifications for either free (MIT courses, etc) or extremely low cost. While
the K-12 years also have a function as day care, hopefully adults don't
require that cost, and stuffing them into giant brick buildings often
thousands of miles away for months on end is really inefficient.
~~~
jelveh
I agree that bailouts are not the answer.
The answer is to let these loans default. That's how the lending system should
work. No bailouts, but simple defaults.
You as a lender are responsible for factoring in the probability of a default.
If you haven't - sucks to be you. Same goes for government loans, e.g. you
create an institutionalized Banking system (like the Federal Direct Student
loans).
And if you survive the coming mass default
([http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-28/delinquencies-
stude...](http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-28/delinquencies-student-
loans-surpass-those-credit-card-debt)) - without gov. bailouts - you'll have
learned a valuable lesson on lending: Don't give out ridiculous loans on
ridiculous terms to people who can't afford them. And rest assured that the
education system will find a way to adapt - probably by making education a lot
cheaper again.
~~~
B0Z
The problem with your solution is that the majority of student loans are
government insured Stafford loans and a "defaulted" loan is still paid back to
the lender for full principle by the American taxpayer. Support for this
solution would be miniscule.
In an aside, loans made to college kids to get a quality education is not a
ridiculous loan on ridiculous terms to people who can't afford them.
~~~
jelveh
I believe the American Taxpayer will have to pay for this either way, the
choice is between effectively destroying the lives of those that default or
giving them a fighting chance.
> "In an aside, loans made to college kids to get a quality education is not a
> ridiculous loan on ridiculous terms to people who can't afford them."
I'd like to disagree with you and I believe that a default rate of > 13% (and
rising sharply - [http://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/first-official-
three-y...](http://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/first-official-three-year-
student-loan-default-rates-published)) supports my statement.
~~~
zanny
It doesn't hurt that (at least for me) the ONLY reason I went to college was
for the degree saying CS. I had been programming for years, wrote some WoW
addons, and was bored out of my mind for 3 years straight taking lectures on
things I could have easily read in textbooks or even off wikipedia. But the
number of job opportunities when you have BS of CS on your resume are just
orders of magnitude larger.
_That_ is colossally stupid. We need a better way to certify people for
things than wasting years and tens of thousands of their dollars on this
nonsense.
------
jacquesm
This could start some reverse brain-drain. Get education at a top flight
university in the US, rack up student debt like there is no tomorrow. Then
leave the US, move to another continent and use your prestigious title to out-
compete the locals while you leave your debt unpaid. Highly unethical (well,
maybe not so highly, student debt is a pretty questionable concept to begin
with), but definitely not more so than those that study in poorer countries
which they leave behind the moment they have a title giving them access to
employment abroad.
~~~
InclinedPlane
Unlikely. If someone can easily find a high paying job overseas with their
education they can do the same in the US, debt problem solved.
One of the biggest problems is that student debt is so easy to acquire. It
makes it easier for people to complete college who aren't as serious about it
and who don't have a firm notion of how they will make money afterward. It
also makes it easier for colleges to raise tuition (as they've done). Classic
bubble behavior.
The real problem is that the low quality of K-12 education has forced a lot of
employers to require college degrees as a prerequisite, not because the job is
dependent on the specifics of the degree but because it's the easiest way to
ensure literacy and so forth.
~~~
vellum
If employers are just using a college degree as a signaling mechanism for
basic skills, they should just ask for high school GPA and SAT score. Those
are the primary criteria colleges use for admissions.
~~~
randomdata
I expect there are considerably more people who fit the necessary criteria to
attend college than who end up as graduates. When you are trying to filter
applicants, you usually want to reduce your set, not increase it. Even
filtering on college graduates is starting to be less effective due to
increasing rates of output from the colleges. In the technology field in
particular, we've started to become more interested in hobbies because fewer
people have relevant hobbies than degrees.
------
josscrowcroft
This is absolutely brutal... given that many Americans I know have come out
after 4 years (NB: it's standard 3 here in UK) with a degree in
God–knows–what, with no idea what to do or where to go, and have ended up
effectively retraining as soon as they start their first (often
degree–unrelated) job.
This may not apply for e.g. doctors, lawyers, and such – but I'm convinced a
University–grade education can be had for far less (though a large investment
still required) outside of the for–profit institutions.
I'm just waiting for someone to come along and prove it... and for society to
accept it (which would close the pay gap).
~~~
maxerickson
Most degrees in the U.S. are earned at public universities and colleges. Those
are not for profit institutions.
From the pdf, a majority of borrowers owe less than $25,000. Less than 15% of
borrowers owe more than $50,000. I'm sure that the larger debts skew towards
younger people that have not made very many payments, but those numbers hardly
paint the picture of a crisis. There's "only" about 6 million people with
enormous debts.
------
timme
"U.S. student debt market cap reaches $966B, stakeholders mostly satisfied"
------
Tycho
If you throw private debt and public spending in together, does the US have
more debt due to education than other western countries? (eg. in Britain the
state largely subsidises higher education but then you pay taxes or your
government borrows to cover the cost)
------
zwieback
The Atlantic ran "The Myth of the Student Loan Crisis" recently:
[http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/03/myth-
stu...](http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/03/myth-student-loan-
crisis/309231/)
~~~
maxerickson
Looks like an older release of this data.
(the numbers for chart 3 correspond with the Q3 2011 chart on this page:
[http://libertystreeteconomics.newyorkfed.org/2012/03/grading...](http://libertystreeteconomics.newyorkfed.org/2012/03/grading-
student-loans.html) )
It's unfortunate that the Atlantic post uses the term "Indebted Students" for
their chart, the data clearly covers all holders of student loan debt (many of
whom will be happy to identify themselves as former students).
------
cryowaffle
More people invested in education, more people have debt to pay.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Get more out of your Netflix subscription - kirubakaran
http://feedflix.com/
======
raghus
This is the site I am working on - I'd greatly appreciate feedback from HN on
what you guys think.
Btw, RWW covered FeedFlix a couple days ago:
<http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/feedflix.php>
~~~
icey
1) This site really looks cool
2) It's easy to use, so kudos - I sent the link to my girlfriend and she set
it up in no time flat.
3) There is no three, but I'd like to say again that this is a pretty cool
application.
~~~
raghus
Hey, thanks icey. Let me know if you have any other thoughts or ideas to make
it better.
~~~
icey
The only suggestion I would have is to somehow allow friendlier URLs. I would
really like feedflix.com/icey for example. It would be worth signing up just
for that.
~~~
raghus
Hi icey - while that's definitely possible, here's a simpler way:
Right now the username you get (typically something like xy-12345) is actually
your Netflix username. So all you need to do is to log in to your Netflix
account and set your Netflix username to "icey" and FeedFlix will catch up on
the next refresh and your page will be feedflix.com/icey from that point on.
Makes sense? Let me know if it doesn't.
~~~
icey
Well... That's just awesome.
Thanks!
------
kirubakaran
This app is awesome. If there is anyone on the fence, I assure you that your
time will be well spent checking this out.
------
TrevorJ
I enjoy the idea a lot. Really nifty.
------
nazgulnarsil
wow, good job. looks really good and fulfills a need. wish i had thought of
that ;)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Was the Flash Crash Apple's Fault? - drawkbox
http://www.minyanville.com/businessmarkets/articles/apple-microsoft-flash-crash-market-capitalization/6/7/2010/id/28621?page=full
======
wglb
No. Bad headline, article confuses correlation and causation, not thoughtful.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The Android Explosion: How Google’s Freewheeling Ecosytem Threatens the iPhone - barista
http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/04/mf_android/
======
barista
Now just replace Jha with Elop, Motorola with Nokia and Andriod with Windows
Phone. One thing lacking is the operator like Verizon.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA - cft
https://www.craigslist.org/about/FOSTA
======
DannyBee
This is not surprising, but sad. Years ago, i was dragged (i was the only
engineer in the local office) into a whitehouse (or maybe it was state
department, i can't remember) sponsored working group on online sex
trafficking.
The non-profits dedicated to fighting this, while seemingly well-intentioned,
were completely and totally unwilling to see any other perspective or try to
find shared ground. It was scorched earth approach or nothing. Literally to
the tune of "we should be burning down craigslist entirely, and yahoo, google,
microsoft, etc should be required to be scanning your search history and
reporting you to the police if they suspect you might be sex trafficking".
It was frustrating enough that two of the other participants literally walked
out.
The only thing mildly surprising to me here is that it took them ~10 years to
get the house to do it.
~~~
SeeDave
In defense of the "scorched earth approach or nothing" folks: from my
perspective... it's a completely and totally human response to faceless,
blameless, unapproachable (from their perspective) perpetrators and
facilitators of systematic abuse and exploitation of innocent and vulnerable
people.
If you've ever felt frustrated at an IVR system for routine tasks such as
banking, restaurant reservations, canceling a gym membership, checking a gift
card balance, etc. then you may understand where the "scorched earth" people
are coming from when it comes to advocating for dozens, if not hundreds, of
innocent victims who have been raped, exploited, and brutalized.
That said, I really wish that I could come forward with a solution to the
online sex trafficking problem.
~~~
anigbrowl
Great, like the trade is going to suddenly end. All they've achieved is 'out
of sight, out of mind.' I'm quite annoyed about this, both because it affects
numerous friends of mine who are sex workers and are now scrambling to find
alternatives to working on the street, where they're far less safe, and on a
more pedestrian level because I met my wife on a Craigslist date years ago.
Life is too short to make excuses for stupid behavior.
~~~
edraferi
I've been thinking about this a lot this morning.
I think almost every vice would be less damaging to society if it was in the
open. Polite society doesn't want to see sex work or drugs, but they still
exist. Hiding them makes things much worse for the people directly involved.
It's trafficked kids with broken immigration status who are more scared of the
cops than their captors. It's drug addicts who OD on tainted drugs.
Bring it all into the open. Have the government certify providers directly.
Crack down on unauthorized middlemen. Tax it. Use the taxes to pay for
programs that help people leave when they realize they can have a better life
without it.
We need the classic American Market here: free trade enabled by regulation
that ensures market quality and protects participants from fraud.
Unfortunately I don't think this is politically possible. It would take a
long, well funded campaign. The people who are willing to do that kind of work
are motivated by stories of individual tragedy and focus on draconian
solutions like this mess of a law. The people who would push for openness can
make more money elsewhere, and don't want to make their name "Advocating for
drugs & sex."
Frustrating.
~~~
manofmanysmiles
I've been thinking about this peripherally for a while, especially the bigger
picture when some law is passed, and it seems exceptionally out of touch with
the reality, and does more harm than good.
A depressing thought: What if we apply something akin to Occam's Razor? What
if the lawmakers want to hurt the people struggling at at the lower rungs of
society? To me it feels unlikely it is intentional in most cases, or
conscious, but what if on some level, there is a motivation to hurt these
people who they feel are inferior? You can easily apply Hanlon's razor here as
a counter-argument, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm not attributing malice
to any individual actor, but to something more subtle, e.g. unconscious bias.
Maybe subconsciously, there's a force that's trying to destroy people who are
for whatever reason unable thrive in society? I guess maybe this force IS
society?
Apologies if this is a bit vague and short. I just wanted to share this
thought in case it resonated with anyone else. I'll be happy to expand upon
this thought if there's interest.
~~~
mtreis86
"The state is the institution or complex of institutions which bases itself on
the availability of forcible coercion by special agencies of society in order
to maintain the dominance of a ruling class, preserve the existing property
relations from basic change and keep all other classes in subjection." Hal
Draper
~~~
manofmanysmiles
Thanks, that’s very succinctly put!
Besides Hal Draper, what authors would you recommend to further explore this
thought? I’m educated as a programmer and only beginning to deliberately
explore ideas outside of science and engineering.
~~~
ibeckermayer
Reason and Liberty by Shayne Wissler. It can be downloaded for free online.
~~~
manofmanysmiles
Thanks everyone, I'll do some reading! Maybe I'll even follow up in a month or
so. No promises.
Replying at the end of the thread because I think that makes the most sense.
------
downandout
I just read the text of this bill. The way it reads, the entire online dating
industry should be closing its doors...tonight. CEOs of these companies face
penalties of up to 25 years in prison. Why were there not massive protests
over this? I had never heard of this bill before today.
~~~
narrator
Meanwhile, net neutrality, which wasn't even policy until the Obama
administration gets huge press all over the place. What happened to Silicon
Valley's political activism?
~~~
SlowRobotAhead
Good question... almost like they might not be telling you the truth when the
say they are riled up about X because of Y. The silence on Z is deafening.
------
extralego
It seems this and the new Youtube/Reddit bans would push more of this
communication to the dark web and/or other private communication channels. I
don't think I am comfortable with that. But, hopefully it leads to more
support and push for privacy and decentralization.
[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-21/youtube-b...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-21/youtube-
bans-firearm-sales-and-how-to-videos-prompting-backlash)
[https://motherboard.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/ne9v5k/reddit...](https://motherboard.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/ne9v5k/reddit-
bans-subreddits-dark-web-drug-markets-and-guns)
~~~
abritinthebay
There _is_ something to be said for making a discouraged activity harder to
do.
Yes, it pushes these people underground but in a sense that is _good_ as it
makes it harder for them and harder to access them. In return it’s not much
harder for authorities to infiltrate and there’s less non-illicit activity to
filter.
Not perfect, but it’s not always bad.
~~~
superkuh
You are operating under the premise here that what youtube/reddit have banned
is something illegal and immoral. Reddit literally banned forums for posting
good deals they found for firearms and accessories online. And youtube is
banning channels that feature people enjoying their completely legal hobby
enjoyed by hundreds of millions of people.
No, the problem here is that governments and large institutions are using
truly evil things to convince people to ban completely innocuous things for
commercial reasons. This is online gentrification for the corps. And for
government, using kids/terrorism/communists is the oldest trick in the book to
violate the rights of their citizens.
~~~
abritinthebay
Who gives a shit about Reddit? I’m talking in context of the law that is
mentioned in the original article
~~~
castis
The person you replied to had mentioned reddit in their comment so it was kind
of a natural progression.
They're saying that the scenario where reddit removed some subreddits for
wholly subjective reasons is similar to this craigslist thing.
~~~
abritinthebay
Which it isn’t. At all. One is mandated by law and the other is self imposed
community standards.
------
smadge
Tonight tens of thousands sex workers are devestated that their safer tool for
finding clients is shutting down. Exploitative sex trafficking will continue
unabated, but independent working people will be forced into more dangerous
situations.
~~~
Noos
LOL at craigslist being "safe." That site was always sketchy as hell.
~~~
lagadu
Yeah, and without it around they'll have to move to far sketchier platforms or
streetwalking. Good job making it worse.
------
rmrm
I find a somewhat irresolvable issue on the liberal viewpoint of female
sexuality and using sex to sell things (or selling sex directly)
I see a lot of push back and negativity towards things like "booth babes" and
other models that are employed to use their sexuality to help sell something.
And I dont really argue with that, from a consumer angle. But I do also hear
and feel for those models, who likely rightly say, why am I now out of a job?
How is that empowering?
On the other hand, I think typically liberal viewpoint would be that
prostitution should be made more legal and out of the shadows, and of course
people can sell sex. Which I also dont disagree with.
As it relates to laws and rights, it isn't in conflict - they both should be
legal. But the underlying feelings and opnions about them, it seems somewhat
unresolved. There seems to be more hatred towards the objectification of
women, but not targeted at say strippers. It doesn't seem totally coherent.
~~~
erikpukinskis
In this case the typical liberal and the radical liberal are split, much as
with trans identity.
To sum it up with too broad of a brush, liberal (mainstream) feminists think
sex work is positive, and that only coercion to sex should be criminalized.
Radical feminists see sex “work” as an extreme outlier amongst sex trafficking
which by their measure constitutes the vast majority of the sex trade. They
would consider a woman who was raped and coerced into the trade as a child,
but who has adjusted and now verbally “consents” (by far the typical case) as
a sex trafficking victim.
So the radical and liberal feminist agree that person is doing nothing
illegal. But many of the radical feminists would support criminal charges for
the Johns and the pimps/clubs/etc in the vast majority of cases.
~~~
kakarot
Ok sure, now what about the people that _weren 't_ raped and just got into
prostitution the same way a stripper decides that life is for them? Are they
still victims?
A radical feminist (in my experience) will still say yes, effectively robbing
these women of their own personal agency and shaming their choices.
That is an important distinction, and your comparison is watered down by
ignoring it.
~~~
erikpukinskis
That's very true. Thanks for the addition. I'll try to hold that experience
more central next time I bring it up.
------
Method-X
I'd encourage folks here to check out ZeroNet
([https://zeronet.io](https://zeronet.io)). It's a cool little project I've
been following for the past couple years that's attempting to decentralize the
Internet. It's not very popular but surprisingly it has 11.5k stars on GitHub
([https://github.com/HelloZeroNet/ZeroNet](https://github.com/HelloZeroNet/ZeroNet)).
~~~
pavel_lishin
Can I use your service to promote or facilitate the prostitution of another
person? Asking for a friend.
~~~
oehpr
zeronet isn't really that anonymous, you're looking for tor or i2p
~~~
pavel_lishin
You miss my point, which is that ZeroNet could fall under this idiot blanket
law.
------
quotemstr
I am fucking sick and fucking tired of people interfering with the free choice
of individuals in any effort to "fix" society and "help" people.
Lawmakers and advocates, have some epistemic humility and acknowledge that
your own perspective may be mistaken. Not everything is oppression. Not every
activity is injustice. Sometimes, people just fucking disagree.
~~~
rpearl
The goal of the legislation in question is specifically to help individuals
that have been coerced, against their free will, into sex trafficking.
It is not about voluntary interactions between consenting adults.
The legislation might be misguided or ineffective--I haven't really looked
into it--but it very definitely isn't about restricting the free choice of
individuals.
~~~
valuearb
It’s completely limiting free choice and voluntary interactions between
consenting adults. A huge personals section just got shut down. Unless you
think 100% of personal ads are coerced sex trafficking, which would be rather
crazy opinion.
If you truly wanted to curb sex trafficking, you’d legalize prostitution, not
drive it farther underground.
~~~
Buge
rpearl never claimed that it wasn't limiting free choice. rpearl claimed the
intention wasn't to limit free choice.
Intent and actual outcome are two completely different things.
~~~
disiplus
it's still limiting if you define it to broadly. if i defined a law that said
every owner of a home will be punished if somebody in that home smoked weed or
did drugs.
and airbnb is gone, and so on.
~~~
Buge
Neither I nor rpearl claimed it wasn't limiting.
The intent was to protect people who are being harmed against their will (held
in sex slavery against their will).
Of course the actual effect of the law is different than the intent. The
actual effect is limiting.
~~~
kcanini
Do you think the actual intent is closer the stated intent, or to the actual
results?
We're talking about seasoned politicians, not naive dreamers.
~~~
noxToken
The actual intent probably is closer to the stated intent. The actual results
just don't matter to them.
------
tcskeptic
Pushing this market off the internet and back onto the streets will increase
the murder rate of sex workers. This bill will literally kill people. See
Scott Cunningham at Baylor who specializes in the economics of Sex Work and
other criminal markets.
------
JohnJamesRambo
This is completely bizarre, we can't go down this route with the internet. It
is madness.
~~~
thrden
Unfortunately we've had a very poor week for internet freedom. However much of
it has been the result of corporate overreach.
This week: Reddit bans Cigar, beer and Alchohol trading subreddits, toy bb gun
sales, and gun related coupon clippers
Youtube (and facebook?) banned Channels featuring guns they deem
inappropriate. Including videos regarding proper safety and maintenance.
It has become clear to be that the internet is naturally monopolistic in a way
physical institutions are not. One simply cannot move their gun channel, or
the cigar trading forum to other sites and have a decent chance of maintaining
even 10% of their customers. What happens if google also decides that they
don't want these things to show up in search results. We need regulation to
ensure that these platforms remain open for all types of users, not regulation
that forces more content off these platforms.
~~~
delbel
I screwed up and accidentally chambered two 12ga shells in my Remington 870,
it was a potential dangerous accident but found video to help me safely un-f
the situation. Also I found a "bug" that allowed me to shoot, under a strange
condition, my 9mm when the safety was on. Found out what not to do on youtube
to avoid that situation. Also couldn't figure out what this knob was on my
10/22, turns out its a critical feature after finding it on youtube. This
sucks I won't be able to find this type of information literally typing the
gun model and the name of the problem to see a video to help me out as easily
as yesterday.
~~~
odammit
Go start GunTube and make a buck or two!
I was reading earlier today people are uploading their gun vids to PornHub.
[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-21/youtube-b...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-21/youtube-
bans-firearm-sales-and-how-to-videos-prompting-backlash)
~~~
amyjess
> I was reading earlier today people are uploading their gun vids to PornHub.
Funny thing is, my coworker and I were talking about this earlier today... we
ended up agreeing that it wouldn't be surprising at all if PornHub ends up
creating an SFW site under a different name (VidHub?) for things like this.
------
remailer404
Wow! I met my wife just over 7 years ago there, and our 2nd kid is due in a
few months. Hard to believe that the personals section is gone.
~~~
narrator
Since I'm a relatively old guy, I'll tell you how it used to work. Before cell
phones, online dating and apps, the way people met people was through friends,
or at work, or god forbid, randomly approaching a stranger and introducing
oneself, usually at a nightclub or bar, but sometimes at a supermarket or
cafe. Rejection happened in one's face publicly in front of other people!
~~~
smadge
Someone just shared their heartwarming tale about how they met their spouse
using craigslist personals and you have the audacity to tell them that their
story is illegitimate because "back in my day" people met differently? Have
some heart and recognize that their story of how they met is legitimate,
cherished, and deserves protection.
~~~
narrator
I'm just trying to provide some historical information for millenials.
~~~
rndmind
I'm a millenial and even I think dating apps are for pussies.
------
trhway
97-2 in Senate. Probably only sex and drugs have such universal magical power
over politicians of all colors.
~~~
TeMPOraL
If only NASA could say that they found on Mars a new substance that probably
eliminates the desire to do drugs... We'd be having a golden age of space
exploration now.
~~~
theandrewbailey
If NASA discovered oil on Mars, we'd be there years ago. (Something liberation
something something...)
~~~
TeMPOraL
FWIW, it's raining natural gas on Titan.
~~~
vibrio
...and raining diamonds on Saturn and Jupiter. Surely there is a frothy Series
A to be had here somewhere.
~~~
bduerst
Forget hydrocarbons and diamonds, the Helium-3 mining is the next candidate
for the hype curve.
~~~
TeMPOraL
I thought we're already past He-3 hype?
------
post_break
How soon will reddit follow? The great purge has started. Guns removed from
YouTube and reddit. Now meet up portions are being nuked.
~~~
dahdum
They’ve already started banning all the subs about escorts, prostitution,
sugar daddies, etcetera today in response.
Also subs like BeerTrade, BazaarMarkets , and other marketplaces. Say goodbye
to an era.
I’m sure many more will get the axe over time.
~~~
flamedoge
decentralized network can't come soon enough. I foresee YC, Reddit, Youtube,
FB, and alike get supplanted by technology that has no ownership.
~~~
abritinthebay
Every single decentralized version of those sites has died a death due to a)
being pretty awful b) attracting completely terrible users as it’s base c)
terrible user experience.
What do you see changing?
~~~
adventured
Decentralized is the ultimate tech fantasy. It never happens at mass consumer
scale. There isn't a single example of that in the last 25 years of the
Internet. The reason it never happens, is because most people with a heavy
tech-tilt don't understand normal users at all. They fail to understand that
they're an extreme minority in terms of product behavior.
You can dig back a decade or whatever on HN, it's a non-stop talking fest
about decentralized, everytime anything negative happens, whether this or
Facebook or whatever. And yet, ten years later, nothing. Everything mass
consumer tech is centralized.
~~~
mirko22
botcoin did happen though.
So it is not that unimaginable
~~~
zeth___
There's at most a dozen big miners, three big pools and a hand full of
exchanges.
------
pmoriarty
It'll be interesting to see how other dating sites (okcupid, match.com,
tinder, etc) handle this. If they manage to stay open, this could wind up
benefiting them, as craiglist users migrate over.
But if they shut down, and newspapers posting personals also run afoul of this
law, then this could be a boon to bars and other, more traditional ways of
meeting people.
~~~
crispyporkbites
> this could be a boon to bars and other, more traditional ways of meeting
> people
That is insanely optimistic, randomly meeting people in a bar is significantly
more dangerous than a prearranged meet, and the first thing most people do
after contact online is go to a bar or public meeting point anyway.
What is a “traditional” way of meeting someone? Through your parents?
~~~
pmoriarty
_" What is a "traditional" way of meeting someone? Through your parents?"_
Through friends, hobbies, volunteering, bars, clubs, parties, and various
other forms of group entertainment like concerts, plays, etc.
Pretty much anywhere people meet face to face counts.
~~~
AnthonyMouse
> Pretty much anywhere people meet face to face counts.
But that's the problem, right? People used to do their banking in a bank, get
their books in a library, their toothpaste in a drug store, their music in a
record store, etc.
Now they do all of that online without leaving home. So they need to meet
people online too.
~~~
pmoriarty
_" they need to meet people online too"_
You don't need to convince me. I see the value of online dating.
------
mattnewton
I think that there are three kinds of people that would support this bill:
A) sincere people for whom 1 victim is too many and any tactic is worth
reducing the victim count by any amount
B) people too afraid to be labeled as pro sex trafficking
C) people who want weapons to silence speech and are using A and B
I don’t know how you would go about determining the mix, but I am sure the C
group will show their hand soon enough when we see calls for shutting down
platforms that were used to support political rivals, after they fail to
police user content on their site.
------
IdontRememberIt
Twitter, Instagram and Facebook have a lot of escorts having a profile. Are
their CEO also at risk? Are they planning to remove these profiles? Is
Facebook Marketplace at risk? Has someone some info?
------
crispyporkbites
> The bill amends the federal criminal code to add a new section that imposes
> penalties—a fine, a prison term of up to 10 years, or both—on a person who,
> using a facility or means of interstate or foreign commerce, owns, manages,
> or operates an interactive computer service (or attempts or conspires to do
> so) to promote or facilitate the prostitution of another person.
How do you define promoting or facilitating prostitution? Eg. Does WhatsApp
fall foul of this? Email? Basically any communication service can be used for
this...
------
kazinator
How far-reaching is FOSTA?
Say I'm in the US and happen to run a mailing list about some programming
language or whatever. Someone posts an off-topic message that promotes
prostitution with sex-trafficking victims. The message passes spam filters and
is redistributed to the mailing list subscribers. Am I now criminally liable
for facilitating this, as the mailing list operator?
If so, shouldn't CL be shutting down everything entirely?
If I'm not liable, on the other hand (that is to say, I have an "off topic
defense"), then why can't that apply to CraigsList; they can just say that
anything of that sort is off topic. At the very least they could keep the
"strictly platonic" category where that sort of promotion is off topic.
------
omarforgotpwd
Rather than stopping undesirable activity, this will merely push it to
platforms and protocol that are out of the US government's control.
~~~
jonnycomputer
It might, or it might not. And even if it did, then so what? I think the
attitude you expressed is equivalent to: well since there is no way to
actually stop the slave trade from using some platform, US companies might as
well profit from it.
~~~
omarforgotpwd
Not at all. If a certain law does not solve the intended problem and it poses
costs on innocent bystanders (e.g. website administrators who are not involved
in any illegal activity), then it might need to be reconsidered. The
equivalent attitude would be: Requiring everyone shit in the sink and wash
their hands in the toilet is not going to solve insider trading, so we should
not make that a requirement. "So what, you support insider trading and letting
people profit off private company information?" No, not at all. I just want to
shit in the toilet and wash my hands in the sink. It won't make a difference
to insider trading either way.
------
bouncetime
From someone who has dated prositutes and strippers.
I can tell you the ones I currently know and have dated have this view.
They enjoy sex. They are going to have it anyway. You are going to pay them
with your time, your flowers, dinner, gifts, take them to do things. Their
thing is why not take the money spend it on what they need as opposed to
dinner etc. either way everyone! Is buying it and selling it
------
krauses
I’m confused. So they felt at risk by allowing adults to post personal ads in
search of romantic connections but they leave open the “Services->Therapeutic”
category that openly promotes ads for illegal rub-and-tug establishments that
are frequently the target of sex trafficking raids.
~~~
luckydude
I sent Craig an email this morning saying the same thing. I don't get why they
close down the part of the website that was (mostly, I guess?) supporting
people trying to get in a relationship and, I'm sure some sort of Tinder like
hookups, and leave open the part where they actually have some real exposure.
Doesn't make sense.
------
IdontRememberIt
I own a leader classified ad website in my country (not the us). You cannot
imagine the pressure we get from all directions to remove categories
(regulation, companies, associations, etc). The free horizontal classified ad
websites are slowly dying. In the future, as a customer, you should be
prepared to pay for publishing an ad with skyrocketing fees due to regulation.
Classified ads will be validated (vs moderated) as regulation tend to push the
responsabilities on the website owner. The categories and the variety of
allowed items will decrease due to regulation and commercial pressure (You can
forget reselling your 10'000USD Gucci bag after a break up).
------
Fjolsvith
So, Craigslist no longer allows Americans to use personals because of FOSTA.
What's to keep Americans from going a foreign based service/server for their
hookup needs? It wouldn't necessarily have to be Darknet, right?
~~~
kirykl
The CLOUD act
[https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/02/cloud-act-dangerous-
ex...](https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/02/cloud-act-dangerous-expansion-
police-snooping-cross-border-data)
~~~
Fjolsvith
I see supreme court challenges all over that.
------
cpcat
What if those sites move their operations to other countries
~~~
quotemstr
Ask Kim Dotcom
------
elchief
Still up in Canada
Though it's mostly bots these days. Used to be a good place to get laid
------
drawkbox
Real sex trafficking is horrible but censorship can end up bad as well and
harms the majority of people who aren't doing horrible things.
At least you knew where bad actors were as a sort of honeypot, closing down
stuff like this just makes them go dark and spread like roaches. It is messed
up to use 'trafficking' to go after porn as well.
------
nkkollaw
Can these companies (Craigslist, Reddit) open offices in Europe and run those
sections of the website from there, somehow?
------
olfactory
Craigslist personals offered us a very clear view of the utter failure of
authorities to combat sex trafficking.
------
kinghajj
The congress.gov link states "Section 230 limits the legal liability of
interactive computer service providers or users for content they publish that
was created by others." Wouldn't this exempt Craigslist from the act, since
all posts are created entirely by their users?
~~~
djf1
The bill imposes criminal penalties -- Section 230 does not shield platforms
from liability under federal criminal law.
The bill also carves out exceptions weakening Section 230 protections.
[1] [https://www.eff.org//deeplinks/2018/03/how-congress-
censored...](https://www.eff.org//deeplinks/2018/03/how-congress-censored-
internet) [2] [https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-
bill/1865](https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/1865)
------
matthewaveryusa
These services already exist on the dark web and motivated users will migrate
there instead. I think I'm neutral positive -- if this makes very public
websites more accountable for their content that's fine. If you still want to
pursue your ventures, devious or not, all you need to do is get the tools and
knowledge to access the dark web. There's no doubt in my mind that the web we
used to know has been taken over by politics and corporations -- the worst of
cocktails. So here we are, the dark web is now the free web, and the free web
is the corporate web. For me it will make no difference, I'll still have
access to both, but for the uninitiated they will go from surfing the web to
serfing the web.
------
tarikjn
What a terrible bill, it is retroactive and cover foreign commerce, meaning
even operators of a foreign company could be charged when travelling through
the US.
If as what I am reading in the comments and my intuition is right, the numbers
prove unequivocally that this bill will have the effect of increasing sex
trafficking and making investigating more difficult, is there a thin
possibility that the lawmakers be charged under their own bill for knowingly
voting it into law while possibly being aware of the effect it would have on
sex trafficking?
------
kakarot
So how long before these new powers are used for something other than
suppressing prostitution? (Labeling all activity on such sites as "sex
trafficking" is an attempt to control the language of the conversation, and
should be avoided)
------
swanlyk
Are we getting to the point where private electronic conversations are all
public? And all are "published" because they're stored on a server that can be
accessed (legitimately or not) and therefore have to be censored.
------
jurassic
This makes me sad. I never actually responded to any of the personals on
Craigslist, but looking through them back in 2008 and seeing what I felt
attraction to helped me understand and come to terms with the fact that I
really am bisexual. Fast forward ten years and next month I'm marrying my
same-sex partner. Not saying I wouldn't have figured that out without
Craigslist personals, but I do feel strongly that there's value in having a
space for people to broadcast their desire without moderation.
------
saudioger
They'll just move to the "therapeutic" section as masseuses. I totally respect
the mission of preventing sex trafficking, but it just feels like they're
playing whack-a-mole.
~~~
jasonkostempski
It feels like they're playing whack-a-mole using nukes, killing millions of
non-moles trying to take out 1 mole.
------
jimbonsf
This is a terrible step backwards for our country, no thanks to those who do
not understand the newer information technologies, like the internet and
social media, or appreciate the ridiculous criminalization of consensual
sexual relations. CL may be gone, but I hope the structural, dynamic
resilience of the web won't take long for workarounds and alternatives.
------
gardnr
Doesn't it seem likely that an alternative will pop up which is outside the
jurisdiction of FOSTA which may or may not cooperate with USA law enforcement
as well?
------
ggg9990
Sad. I had several great dates from Craigslist personals.
~~~
imesh
I had several weird hookups from Craiglist. This is probably good for my
health.
------
odammit
It’s just a matter of time before there is a code like “selling new pink shoes
for roses” in the clothing section. Will they shut that down too?
------
dumbfounder
The intent of FOSTA was right in my opinion, if you are making money from
these services then you should spend some of that money policing your
services. That seems fair to me in theory. Not sure whether FOSTA got it right
or wrong, but I do know some of these players did little to nothing to police
their services, and brought about their own downfall.
------
masonic
At least you can still buy fake IDs, passports, and "green cards" on CL[0].
[0] [https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/tix/d/make-your-passport-
dr...](https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/tix/d/make-your-passport-
drivers/6533065522.html)
------
Khaine
This law is insane. It also impacts the operations of US companies overseas,
where prostitution is legal. So for example, if a prostitute hosts their
website on AWS, then Amazon is in violation of this law.
------
habeebtc
On the bright side, the "Rants and Raves" section has disappeared with it.
~~~
jzawodn
nope: [https://sfbay.craigslist.org/d/rants-
raves/search/rnr](https://sfbay.craigslist.org/d/rants-raves/search/rnr)
------
danso
How are Craigslist personals more affected by this law/regulation than other
semi-anonymous dating sites? Or am I mistaken in thinking that there is any
dating site that has the same anonymity as Craigslist?
~~~
pmorici
It could be that the risk reward calculation is different for CL than other
sites. Personals is just one part of a much larger site for CL where as a
dating site's only business is personals so they really don't have anything to
lose by taking the risk.
~~~
confounded
Right. Oh! Except for 25 years in prison.
------
greggarious
Maybe I'm misreading but it looks like this only passed the Senate - doesn't
that mean it isn't law yet? Am I misreading or is this more of a protest?
------
werber
But there's still the therapeutic section... They don't seem as concerned with
prostitution as they're with litigation
------
coupdetaco
[https://youtu.be/8uT38_pRxHo?t=15m6s](https://youtu.be/8uT38_pRxHo?t=15m6s)
------
bsder
Could someone explain to me how this isn't going to go down in flames to an
immediate First Amendment challenge?
~~~
CamperBob2
I think that's why more people aren't upset about it. The courts have been
very effective at shutting down this sort of grandstanding.
------
anonymous5133
The irony though is that the personal section will most likely just migrate to
another section of the website.
~~~
mattnewton
And then potentially cause the entire website to fold when they are charged
with sex trafficking in random places.
------
Fjolsvith
I see a new, open-source, peer-to-peer app that piggybacks on the Ethereum
blockchain to provide personal ads.
------
ratata
Would an open source peer-to-peer personals board qualify as a 'platform'
under this bill ?
------
smt88
I hope a lawyer will chime in, because this seems pretty obviously to be an
indefensible law.
If you make analogies to other services, the justification falls apart. Are
landlords responsible for weed dealers' business cards stuck to peg boards? Is
USPS responsible for people mailing bombs?
Even under DMCA, no public/high-traffic communication service is responsible
for its users this way.
~~~
zrobotics
Actually, a landlord can be responsible for tenant's drug dealing.
[https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/landlord-
liab...](https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/landlord-liability-
for-criminal-acts-of-tenants.html) Granted, they have to at least have a
suspicion it is occurring, but there is potential liability there, and
business cards stuck to a pegboard may be enough.
~~~
kevin_b_er
A better comparison would be that the privately owned toll road operator must
check for drug traffickers itself or be shut down by a law like this.
------
animex
I guess these service providers can now go back to the safety of the streets.
------
seibelj
Obviously driving prostitution underground and out of reach of researchers
will improve the lives of sex workers. Prostitution is a very recent industry
and was invented by the internet
~~~
cft
I know several people who met and got married with children on CL. It was a
normal dating site, and it also has(d) "strictly platonic" and "missed
connections"\- all of it is shut down now. Are dating sites/Tinder next? We
will miss the days when internet wasn't like cable TV.
~~~
daturkel
I loved browsing the strictly platonic section looking for sweet/bizarre/novel
posts, but it was definitely full content that was _not_ platonic.
~~~
antonvs
You just have a narrow definition of 'platonic'. :)
------
Danielalonso91
This is completely unrelated - but, one thing I love about comments on Hacker
News is how well-written they are, and eloquent, too.
------
deftturtle
waiting for a new site to spring up in response...
------
jayess
Grindr next?
------
SeeDave
Would it be possible to update this post with a direct link to the Craigslist
notice at
[https://www.craigslist.org/about/FOSTA](https://www.craigslist.org/about/FOSTA)?
It seems a bit... inappropriate to deep link to a screenshot posted by a
Twitter user with a bio of "CRUSH THE PATRIARCHY DICK BY DICK! XY = man & XX =
woman FOREVER"
~~~
dang
Sure. I'm on my phone, though, so someone else will have to post the previous
link.
~~~
SeeDave
Thanks :)
------
aaronrenoir
For a good time respond to this post and we can make financial arrangements ;)
~~~
confounded
Stop trafficking yourself!
~~~
aaronrenoir
I think we can all agree ycombinator is facilitating prostitution
~~~
mc32
I think you would need to spell out your [handler's] phone number's numbers
for it to be "legit" solicitation.
~~~
archi42
We exchanged contact details (deleted the comments) and had a really great
time. 5*, 10/10, would recommend to friends.
------
nvr219
I got a date off craigslist once and it wasn't good.
------
lizardskull
The craiglist Casual Encounters section destroys lives. It laid waste to mine.
There have been many tear filled nights spent wondering who would I be now if
I could delete that site from my history. A string of uncountable months
searching for one new sexual partner after another. The principle expense paid
includes a ledger of a life of total neglect for those who felt true love for
me. And then the hot pattern takes hold again. The emails pile up of mostly
men wanting pixels and sizes as a small part of my mind tells me to stop. But
the fingers keep clicking. One blue link after another until I find what I do
not need. Sex is a fire which begins to burn out of control for some of us. I
cannot be the only one since the act takes at least two.
~~~
freech
If you want to stop having casual sex but feel you can't control yourself,
maybe you can have yourself committed to some sort of clinic, instead of
trying to take away the possibility from everyone else too? (Which probably
wouldn't even help, since if you're not hideously ugly you will probably find
more then enough men willing to have sex with you without craigslist.)
------
loteck
We're taking our ball and going home. Very mature.
It's total BS, of course. People can just as easily advertise prostitution
services in other sections of CL. Something tells me their deeply principled
stand won't extend to shutting down the whole site.
Instead, they will _take reasonable steps to control the proliferation of sex
trafficking on their site._
Some magical force somehow precludes them from extending that same concept to
personal ads, I guess.
~~~
always_good
I think you're barking up the wrong tree.
Even if you think it's all for show, this is a good way for Craigslist to use
their ubiquity to lift FOSTA into the public eye. Nobody knows what FOSTA is
much less the sort of impact it could have on their day to day.
But I suspect Craiglist's legal team isn't a bunch of idiots when it comes to
toeing the line of prostitution. They outlived websites like Redbook even
though they have obvious prostitution classifieds. I'd imagine they're
experts.
It looks more like the Communications Act of 1934 was the centerpiece of their
defense.
~~~
loteck
All platforms already restrict content they allow users to post, including CL.
People still seem to express themselves freely despite those restrictions.
That CL would make a vindictive stand in defense of sex trafficking
specifically is just bizarre.
~~~
always_good
CL openly allowed prostitution on their site just yesterday.
I wouldn't be so quick to call it self-evident that there was a better
response than to immediately shut down their classifieds.
I'm sure there's more to do than just flicking a "filter prostitution: yes /
no" switch on their admin panel.
~~~
TallGuyShort
No, CL has had explicit notices posted regarding prostitution for a long time
and has actively moderated for overt prostitution. You can't compare now, but
if you compare ads on Craigslist to other personals / services websites like
Backpage, Craigslist has been quite PG-13-rated for a long time and at least
forces posters to be a bit more subtle. The "massage" section is actually
mostly pleasantly legit in my experience, assuming you're not in a big city.
------
joering2
This is why we need ows to make top alexia websits a utility!!
Imagine your electric provider cutting off your juice because CEO happen to be
pro ozon layer guy and believes your fridge is too old and takes too much
energy. Or your water company doesnt like you to wash your dog in your bathtub
and cuts our water off suggesting t do that in your back yard. Or gas company
does a survey and disagree that you cook lamb meat at home and shuts your gas,
sggesting to switch to cooking poultry.
As billions of people visit these websites, they start to be super cruicial to
quality of peoples lives! You can say “you gut cut off youtube go somewhere
else”. There is nowhere to go! Same with other major sites.
~~~
cft
Do you think ozonE was created by an act of Congress, like FOSTA? It's a
business move to avoid legal liability.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
List of DL topics with resources for a quick brief, especially before interviews - vlgiitr
https://github.com/vlgiitr/DL_Topics
======
vlgiitr
Vision and Language Group, a deep learning group at IIT Roorkee, has made a
list of topics of DL with resources which one should be familiar with, and
that could come in handy before interviews for briefing up.
[https://github.com/vlgiitr/DL_Topics](https://github.com/vlgiitr/DL_Topics)
Feel free to contribute any amazing resources that have been useful for a
quick prep before your interviews, and star the repo if it is helpful to you!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Deconstructing Sega's System 16 Security – Part 2 - kens
https://arcadehacker.blogspot.com/2020/04/deconstructing-segas-system-16-security-part2.html
======
airstrike
Part one: [https://arcadehacker.blogspot.com/2019/10/deconstructing-
seg...](https://arcadehacker.blogspot.com/2019/10/deconstructing-sega-
system16-security-part1.html)
------
mrandish
The emulation and reverse engineering gurus enabling the retro computer/gaming
community do amazing work to preserve these classics for all time.
------
userbinator
Sega wasn't the only one to use a CPU with embedded crypto, as this set of
detailed articles from the same site shows:
[http://arcadehacker.blogspot.com/2014/11/capcom-kabuki-
cpu-i...](http://arcadehacker.blogspot.com/2014/11/capcom-kabuki-cpu-
intro.html)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Under-challenged web dev looking for work - tommaxwell
Hi HN readers,<p>After spending 7 months building a startup with my friend that I subsequently chose to end development of, I'm looking for some work to make some extra money and keep my mind working.<p>Since moving on from my startup I've found myself under-inspired, under-challenged, and feeling lazy with no commitments or projects to work on.<p>I'm mostly a front-end dev, but taught myself Rails and built out the backend of the startup I was working on. I hosted it on Heroku with a PostgreSQL database. It wasn't really necessary, but for our blog I chose to use a Rails CMS, and hosted it on Digital Ocean with Nginx and Unicorn managing requests.<p>Below are some examples of my work.<p>My personal blog, which is responsive -- it takes inspiration from other blogging platforms but I wrote all the code from scratch.
http://blog.tommaxwell.me<p>My personal site, which is also responsive and written from scratch:
http://tommaxwell.me<p>I also have some projects on my Github profile that I worked on. Chakra is the Rails app that I wrote all myself.
http://github.com/tommaxwell<p>I have a solid understanding of OO JavaScript, CSS3, responsive design, Rails, and more. Preferably the projects I'm looking for are front-end oriented.<p>You can also find me around the web:
http://twitter.com/tommaxwelll
http://medium.com/@tommaxwelll<p>If anyone has any small projects -- maybe even some small work here and there that you need done -- I'd love to talk to you.<p>tommaxwell95@gmail.com
======
lutusp
Suggestions:
> 18-year old web dev looking for work
1\. Don't tell people your age.
> Since severing ties with my cofounder I've found myself under-inspired,
> under-challenged, and feeling lazy with no commitments or projects to work
> on. On top of that I'm lonely, since I don't live near my friends.
2\. Don't put out a lot of personal stuff. Just describe what you're good at
and let people draw their own conclusions. I say this because people who might
hire you will want to see evidence of your personal drive and focus on work
and technology, not how lonely you are.
I wish you the best of luck.
~~~
Axsuul
+1 on age. Also, don't tell people your ethnicity.
~~~
lutusp
> Also, don't tell people your ethnicity.
Or gender, while we're on the topic of things to avoid. :)
~~~
S4M
In fact, don't tell people anything that is not related to the skills you are
bringing on the table.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
A simple and super awesome website - rokhayakebe
http://about.me. I am not affiliated with the site, but I like it's simplicity. It does one think and does it extremely well.
======
rokhayakebe
Clickable <http://about.me> <http://www.about.me/directory/>
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Signal Identification Wiki (VLF to UHF) - noyesno
http://www.sigidwiki.com/wiki/Signal_Identification_Guide
======
blantonl
If you are looking for crowd-sourced localized frequency information, check
out [http://www.radioreference.com](http://www.radioreference.com)
~~~
nitrogen
Looking at the archive link posted in the other comment, this wiki was about
identifying signals based on recordings, rather than location and frequency.
Unfortunately the wiki is still down.
------
throwaway7767
Site seems down, I found a cached version at archive.org:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20150905234615/http://www.sigidw...](https://web.archive.org/web/20150905234615/http://www.sigidwiki.com/wiki/Signal_Identification_Guide)
~~~
nitrogen
It's a shame the site is still down; there's a lot of fascinating info on
there. Some of the over-the-horizon radar samples sound like dubstep
basslines.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
It’s Time for Greece to Leave the Euro - juanplusjuan
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/08/opinion/jochen-bittner-its-time-for-greece-to-leave-the-euro.html
======
antman
> A big part of the blame for this mess rests on the shoulders of the
> chancellor of Germany, Angela Merkel herself. Her statement that “if the
> euro fails, Europe fails” was understood by Athens as a carte blanche
Not really, they know she is lying. She had promised the German taxpayer that
there would be no costs bailing out Greece. She falsely claimed the debt was
sustainable. She promoted a bail out program that virtually destroyed the
Greek economy and refuses to take responsibility for it. Talks about Greek
claims and democratic vote and how it is against European peoples pretty much
ignoring the humanitarian crisis. She sheds crocodile tears for elderly
waiting for 60€ daily at the ATMs while monthly assistance for 400euro
pensions was erased with a red pen. Knows exactly what austerity measures she
wants and when she was presented with any program that does not include those
measures "it is not clear enough bring another one". And when Greeks can't
there is a "breach of trust" The journalist from Die Zeit simply promotes the
usual rhetoric.
But politically she is right. I have noticed a constant attack against her in
German recently but for all the wrong reasons.
------
anigbrowl
_over the past five months Europe has heard way too much from his government
about the impossibility of further cuts and way too little about possible
sources of new income._
This is wildly untruthful. The last set of Syriza proposals included things
like a one-off tax of 12% on business incomes over €500,000 (not unreasonable
in either amount or in the context of a culture of corrupt tax evasion), as
well as a small rise in corporate tax from 26 to 29%. Creditors rejected these
proposals as being 'anti growth'. Now I don't think one can ta one's way to
prosperity, but the last 5 years of austerity in Greece strongly suggest that
you can't cut your way there either, and it's facile to pretend that taxes
should only be considered for their pure macroeconomic effects considering the
lamentable history of tax evasion in Greece (which has deep cultural roots in
centuries under the Ottoman Empire.
Greece still has to undertake massive reforms, and Syriza's governance has
been marked by brinksmanship and overheated rhetoric - but that's what happens
when you put people's backs against the wall. It's a generational-scale
problem that calls for a long-term rather than the nonsensical series of
bandaids that have been thrown at it. I certainly felt that some austerity and
fiscal adjustment was warranted, and indeed applying that approach has allowed
countries like Ireland to to re-balance the books and regain access to capital
markets. But this approach has plainly ceased to work in the case of Greece.
More detail on the specifics of said proposals here:
[http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2015/06/greek-
ba...](http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2015/06/greek-bail-out-
negotiations)
_Neither the eurozone nor Europe is best served by holding on to Greece.
Instead, the European Union needs to come up with a smooth way out of its
dilemma, namely an orderly exit by Greece from the euro._
This is about as sensible as adopting a continental currency called the Mark
and then trying to kick Germany out of it, or seeking to cure the pain of bad
hangover by amputating one's own head. The very word _Europe_ is of Hellenic
origin, along with the concepts of democracy, a republic, and the bulk of our
philosophical worldview. A Euro without Greece may make short-term fiscal
sense but it makes absolutely zero political sense.
------
nakedrobot2
Thanks for the obvious!
My question is, HOW did they get INTO the euro in the first place? Obviously
that's the insane part, and once the fraud that was perpetrated on Brussels
became clear, why weren't they kicked out immediately?
~~~
Lazare
> once the fraud that was perpetrated on Brussels became clear, why weren't
> they kicked out immediately?
It was clear from before the Euro ever started. Everyone (by which I mean, the
elites, analysts, the press, politicians, et al) knew that countries like
Greece and Portugal had no business joining the Euro, and were lying through
their teeth to get in. Then again, everyone knew that the entire project was
founded on lies, cooked books, and ignored rules, sacrificed towards the
overriding goal of ever closer union.
After letting Greece in with a wink and a nod, why in the world would they
have then kicked them out? The fraud, if you want to call it that, was on the
voters and taxpayers, not on the people running the EU. And if they kicked
them out, how could they justify not kicking out all the other countries who
had engaged in blatant trickery, which would be, well, all of them?
France engaged in some elaborate budget trickery to get their deficit under
the line (swapping future pension obligations for one off payments to make
their deficit look low enough)[1], Germany waffled a bit but the moves were
accepted. How could they not be? France at least lied to make their deficit
pass muster; Germany was in blatant violation from the start (which was meant
to preclude their entry, or at least trigger massive fines. Naturally it did
neither.)
Or in short: It's the old glass houses rule. France, Germany, Italy, etc, were
in _NO_ place to demand a strict adherence to the rules in the case of Greece,
since by a strict reading of the rules they shouldn't have been in the Euro
zone either. The Euro project was inherently political from the start, and
_politically_ it needed as many countries to join as possible. Even if that
was economic disaster.
Edit: A better link[2] about how by the terms of the governing treaties, most
Eurozone members did not qualify for entry, including (hilariously) Germany
which had too much debt.
[1]: [http://www.nytimes.com/1996/09/20/news/20iht-
euro.t.html](http://www.nytimes.com/1996/09/20/news/20iht-euro.t.html)
[2]: [http://www.voxeu.org/article/politics-maastricht-
convergence...](http://www.voxeu.org/article/politics-maastricht-convergence-
criteria)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
My next chapter - dorianm
http://chrishateswriting.com/post/140641275808/my-next-chapter
======
c3534l
Moot has always appeared to me to be a very talented and bright person. I
think it's a mistake to judge him by what some people will say on an anonymous
image board. The influence of 4chan on internet culture cannot be ignored:
everything from LOLCats to advice animals and countless internet slang terms.
He's also had a very unique and unusual experience being in charge of a group
of people who believe the internet should be controlled chaos. In my opinion,
Moot is a lot like Mike Judge after he did Beavis and Butthead: it's too easy
to dismiss him because what he created is a bit crass. But he's a smart and
talented person who will most likely go on to build a reputation beyond his
first big thing.
~~~
Jerry2
> _The influence of 4chan on internet culture cannot be ignored: everything
> from LOLCats to advice animals and countless internet slang terms._
Moot is not community. You cannot credit him with the inventions that his
community came up with. His site was the catalyst, of course, but how much
credit should he personally get for it?
Maybe you could judge him by the success (or the lack of it) of DrawQuest and
Canv.as.. the two projects that he spearheaded and got VC funding for.
~~~
user8341116
And 4chan itself is just a clone of a Japanese imageboard, 2ch.
~~~
Koahku
*2chan, also known as Futaba Channel. Futaba is a "clone" of 2ch with support for images.
------
themoonbus
I'm interested to see if this is part of a movement by Google towards a
different notion of community & identity than Facebook.
Moot has very different position than Mark Zuckerberg when it comes to
identity online: [http://venturebeat.com/2011/03/13/4chan-moot-christopher-
poo...](http://venturebeat.com/2011/03/13/4chan-moot-christopher-poole-sxsw/)
~~~
Jerry2
He backpeddaled from that position fairly quickly. Moot banned Tor use on
4chan, he banned VPN use, proxy use was banned, he added ban-tracking cookies,
he added unique IDs, he aded country flags to many boards that didn't want
them, etc.
He supported anonymity for publicity and did a lot on his site to dissuade its
use. When he gave interviews on 4chan, he used to tell everyone that "4chan is
not anonymous".
About the only thing that's left on 4chan that's "anonymous" is the default
username: which is still "Anonymous".
You have more anonymity on HN with a throwaway account than you have on 4chan.
People also give him too much credit when it comes to community organizing as
well. He got lucky with 4chan when he copied 2chan and catered it to english-
speaking audience. When he tried to actually create something from scratch,
both of his apps failed miserably.
~~~
Mithaldu
There's a difference between anonymity of a user to other users, and tools
being used by the administration to track and deny bad actors.
Besides, i'm pretty sure HN can track people across accounts as well, and if
it hasn't banned proxies yet, then only because they haven't been abused
enough.
~~~
Jerry2
How is using a default name like Anonymous or "Anonymous Coward" (or some
other default name on other sites) different from making a throwaway? Making a
throwaway might take you few seconds longer but to an admin, it's exactly the
same thing. Your IP is tracked in both cases.
It's just that "Anonymous" username is EXTREMELY DECEPTIVE since you're NOT
ANONYMOUS at all!
~~~
provingmypoint
OK, here's a throwaway account, for which I had to pick a different user name
a few times because of the name restrictions (not to mention a password).
You, on the other hand, are not using a throwaway account, so I can tell that
you seem to have a rather violent dislike of moot. If this were 4chan, I would
have no idea that you made 3 separate posts trying to tear him down.
~~~
squeaky-clean
> You, on the other hand, are not using a throwaway account, so I can tell
> that you seem to have a rather violent dislike of moot. If this were 4chan,
> I would have no idea that you made 3 separate posts trying to tear him down.
It's been a while since I've visited 4chan, but didn't they add some sort of
user ID to comments at some point? Like, they could still generically be
'Anonymous', but there was some sort of ID or hash you could ctrl+f to find
other comments by that person within that thread.
~~~
Nonnymous
You must be thinking of forced IDs, the feature itself is several years old
but it's been turned on and off through the years.
Something that isn't very well known is that 4chan is actually a lot of
smaller communities with only partial overlap, and the culture can differ a
lot depending on what board you are.
A strangely effective rule of thumb is that the smaller the community is, the
friendlier it acts. IDs are only enabled in the bigger and most controversial
boards of the site, where people otherwise don't hesitate to abuse their
anonymity.
------
GuiA
Everyone's gotta pay the bills. If you're thrifty, 4-5 years at a company like
Google can get you .5-1 mil for your next venture (maybe more, maybe less,
depending on your bonuses & promotions, how well the stock performs, etc.)
I wouldn't expect any meaningful new product or anything to come out of this -
if I had to guess, he was probably hired as an IC. Don't expect him to become
some sort of new figurehead at Google for anonymity or identity on the
Internet.
Have fun Chris.
~~~
ForHackernews
> hired as an IC
Please expand uncommon abbreviations.
~~~
osullivj
Individual contributor, as opposed to team lead or manager.
~~~
tinalumfoil
Thought it stood for Independent Contractor at first. Didn't think Google
hired those.
------
sharkjacobs
I would be fascinated to know what kind of position he was hired for.
~~~
duskwuff
New maintainer for Memegen?
([http://www.buzzfeed.com/reyhan/inside-googles-internal-
meme-...](http://www.buzzfeed.com/reyhan/inside-googles-internal-meme-
generator))
------
pinewurst
Curious how he fits into the goals of "Googliness" for new hires.
------
rdl
Wow, congratulations!
------
ybrah
Everything moot does leaves a 4chan shitstorm in its wake.
------
tychuz
Who is moot?
~~~
roadnottaken
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Poole](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Poole)
------
fredfoobar42
I'm really not sure how I feel about this. Moot created the biggest, most
toxic garbage fire of an internet community, refused to take management of it,
and walked away when it became too toxic for anyone to deal with. In a way,
he's a perfect new hire for Google, but Google usually doesn't leave quite so
much devastation in its wake.
~~~
JoshTriplett
While it might be incredibly toxic at times, it's also the source of quite a
lot of interesting Internet culture and movements, many positive works, and a
ton of creativity. It's a microcosm of the worst _and_ the best of what the
Internet can pull off.
Don't dismiss it out of hand as exclusively negative.
~~~
fredfoobar42
Time and time again, the hands-off moderation of anything on 4chan beyond
child pornography has had knock on effects in the real world. GamerGate began
life on 4chan, and is still making women's lives miserable. All you have to do
is ask Allison Rapp, their latest victim. <[http://kotaku.com/the-ugly-new-
front-in-the-neverending-vide...](http://kotaku.com/the-ugly-new-front-in-the-
neverending-video-game-cultur-1762942381>)
While moot did, eventually, push GamerGate discussion off 4chan, he took
forever to do so, and walked away from the site not long after. By not taking
a stance on harassment and abuse earlier on, however, he created conditions
for such a culture to flourish on 4chan.
Is there interesting and positive stuff on 4chan? Almost certainly. Would it
still exist had moot taken a stronger stance on dealing with toxic posters?
I'll go out on a limb and say yes.
~~~
DanBC
Wait, what makes you say GG started on 4chan? There's plenty of places that
are more pro GG than 4chan.
~~~
fredfoobar42
Because it did, when Zoe Quinn's ex-boyfriend posted on /v/ to get people to
start harassing her.
~~~
DanBC
Thanks. I should have just read the wikipedia article.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamergate_controversy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamergate_controversy)
> Quinn's former boyfriend, published the "Zoe Post", [...] The post was
> linked on 4chan,
~~~
13thLetter
Just FYI, reading the wikipedia article is a really bad idea. A variety of
fanatics, political obsessives and involved administrators have been squatting
on it for months; it's a dumpster fire.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Saudi Arabia Sentences Poet to Death for Atheism - snowy
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/20/saudi-court-sentences-poet-to-death-for-renouncing-islam?CMP=share_btn_tw&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=New%20Campaign&utm_term=*Morning%20Brief
======
greenyoda
See also this related article:
Saudi Arabia, an ISIS That Has Made It (nytimes.com)
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10603360](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10603360)
------
stuaxo
The future is unevenly distributed, some places are still in the 14th
centuary.
To not be facetious - progress does not go in any one direction and if we
believe in enlightenment values we need to keep making the arguments.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Bank Theives Foiled by GPS-Spiked Cash - yan
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/01/gps-spiked-cash/
======
RiderOfGiraffes
Same story: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1037097>
No comments so far ...
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How Can I Be as Great as Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, Richard Branson? - weeber
http://www.quora.com/How-can-I-be-as-great-as-Bill-Gates-Steve-Jobs-Elon-Musk-Richard-Branson/answer/Justine-Musk?srid=iAix&share=1#
======
byoung2
Determination, calculated risk-taking, a lot of hard work, a relentless
pursuit of greatness, and luck. Read the bios of anyone on the Forbes
billionaire list, or any top athlete, etc, and you'll see the same traits. For
example, Michael Jordan didn't make the varsity basketball team, so he trained
vigorously and became the star of the JV team to prove himself. Many others
probably gave up. The Forbes list is full of stories of people working from
poverty to billionaire status, and even losing everything and becoming
billionaires again. It is the willingness to do whatever it takes to be the
best when others give up that makes you great. Plus luck.
------
cymetica
Early beginnings, taking risks with their reputation where others won't
combined with unconventional thinking also has something to do with it:
Paypal, Reddit and The Power Of Fakin’ It - [http://platformed.info/seeding-
youtube-megaupload-paypal-red...](http://platformed.info/seeding-youtube-
megaupload-paypal-reddit/)
------
ChikkaChiChi
At the risk of sounding overly trite: think different. But honestly even that
is not enough.
The four titans listed here do not have as many similarities as an association
might imply. However, they all do(did) share the ability to see the status quo
and deem that things could be done better.
There are also many other qualities which are almost to impossible to
quantify. If they were, there would be more names on this list given the
billions of lives that have come before, during, and after them.
Thinking different is not enough. You have to become a force of nature in a
situation where you can affect real change; and that isn't something that can
be coached on a website.
------
gct
That's Elon Musk's wife in case no one noticed:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justine_Musk](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justine_Musk)
~~~
nakedrobot2
(ex-wife)
------
JoePantoliano
Get a publicist.
------
jayvanguard
Be lucky.
------
VOYD
succumb to the greed.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How to Teach a Child to Argue - ed
http://inpraiseofargument.squarespace.com/teach-a-kid-to-argue/
======
ColinWright
There was significant discussion when this was submitted four years ago:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=632518](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=632518)
It includes both unalloyed praise and contemptuous criticism - interesting to
see the subject debated.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
What is a coder's worst nightmare? - spiffytech
https://www.quora.com/What-is-a-coders-worst-nightmare/answer/Mick-Stute?share=1
======
JohnBooty
Understanding unfamiliar legacy code with a bunch of kludges and "domain
knowledge" or "business logic" baked into it, when the original authors are
uninterested/unavailable and management has _zero_ respect or understanding
for the fact that it often takes an order of magnitude longer to
modify/maintain this stuff than it does to write it.
Oh, and there's no test suite.
That is my nightmare. I've been there a few times and it can be literally
impossible to shine in that role.
"What do you mean, it will take you ten hours to add a button? They coded this
whole module in one week and there are 100 buttons!"
aarrrrgh
Now, as an engineer, I understand and embrace the challenge of explaining this
sort of thing to management. I get it. That's the type of skill that separates
code monkeys from senior developers and architects. But, no matter how good
you are, you can't _force_ management to listen nor understand.
~~~
mikekchar
If you are on a legacy project, it's hard to know what to prioritise in terms
of improving code. However, getting requests to take somewhere within an order
of magnitude of how long people think it _should_ take is usually my guide. I
never tell people I'm going to refactor something. I just do it. Then after
the fact I say, "Remember when this used to take a week? Now it takes an
hour". Once you do that a couple of times, management gets the point
(usually). The only problem I've come across is when you get on a team where
they actively discourage code churn. On a legacy project, that's death, so
it's best to find another job in that case.
I really enjoy working on legacy code. Usually everybody else leaves me alone
because nobody wants to touch that code. I get a tonne of freedom. As long as
I don't break things (requires a fair amount of experience) I can quietly
improve things under the hood -- targeting areas where we get a lot of
requests. Legacy code is also great because usually nobody wants new features
just for the hell of it. You almost always get real requests from real users
that have real pain points. The biggest downside (as you imply) is that it's
hard to shine because the best you can do is make things acceptable. It's
difficult to hype the legacy project so you don't get a lot of recognition for
your work.
~~~
JohnBooty
I liked reading this! I'm glad you found happiness doing this sort of work!
One thing I'd say is that it's awfully tough to do this sort of work as a
contractor when there's a (direct) hourly cost for your time. It's tough when
you're on salary working on an internal project... but doubly tough (not
impossible) when you're a contractor! Theoretically, it would be in clients'
best interests to improve efficiencies, but it's _really_ hard to get a client
to sign off on hundreds or many thousands of dollars of work for a future gain
that's hard for them to grasp.
(Getting them to grasp it is part of our job, of course)
Then after the fact I say, "Remember when this used to take a week? Now it takes an hour". Once you do that a couple of times, management gets the point (usually)
This is great advice. It's all about those metrics and demonstrating the value
of your work!
~~~
majewsky
Please don't use codeblocks for quoting. This quote is unreadable on most
screens (esp. on mobile) because the line doesn't break.
Just put a > in front of a normal paragraph to indicate a quote.
~~~
na85
I stopped leaving comments like this because I encountered some surprisingly
vitriolic resistance to making comments readable.
~~~
JohnBooty
Yep, I've been yelled at for both ways. Not putting any effort toward it at
this point.
------
neilv
> _I suddenly realize it 's in the compiler. It was the compiler. And every
> time you compile the original code and run it puts in the subliminal message
> code into the source code. I'd heard of this before._
Ken Thompson, "Reflections on trusting trust", 1984.
[https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=358210](https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=358210)
~~~
kazinator
However, I imagine that Ken Thompson hardly had in mind somem low-brow text
manipulation hacks that go as far as to clobber the textual _inputs_ to the
compiler.
------
codingslave
Coders worst nightmare is working at a company that could desperately use good
technology but whos management completely devalues it. The existentialist
feeling of expending hard mental labor on something that no one cares about
------
markbnj
Great story, but I don't think it qualifies as a nightmare. It's just a really
interesting and challenging puzzle. The fact that the author elected to work
on it for free ("This is nerd war") clearly places it in that category. If you
can exit a nightmare, you exit the nightmare. Speaking for myself the only
coder's nightmare I have is the one I think every coder has. It's the
universal programmer nightmare: you don't really _know_ your stuff works, the
way you can know that turning a key in a lock will open a door. Maybe you
missed something. Maybe you didn't test something. Maybe it's going to break
over the coming holiday weekend.
~~~
pzh
For some reason, I don’t find that story believable at all. It sounds like
somebody read “Reflections on Trusting Trust” and decided to exercise their
creative writing muscle by passing it off as their own experience.
~~~
imtringued
Yeah it's just fan fiction.
------
p1esk
My worst nightmare is I publish a paper, post the code on github, and then
someone contacts me pointing to a bug in my code that invalidates the main
result of the paper.
~~~
WrtCdEvrydy
> invalidates the main result of the paper.
Something like 30% of papers can't be reproduced, regardless of bugs.
~~~
p1esk
I'm fine with that as long as those are not my papers! :)
------
janpot
Being described as "_my_ developer" by a manager or designer.
It says a lot about how these people see themselves within a team, and it's
the kind of team I don't want to work in.
~~~
graphicsRat
Being called a coder.
It's one of my pet peeves.
~~~
makapuf
I understand that negative feeling. Coming from a non technical person or
role, what wording would be better ? Developer ? Software architect (its
different but let's assume non technical people don't understand the
difference), code monkey ? What would be the best term we can find for our
profession?
~~~
nnq
You have multiple options, this is how to choose one:
1\. "software engineer" (might drop the "software" for specific roles like
"front-end engineer" or "machine learning engineer" etc.) - _use this for
people who value their education /fancy-degree and/or who pride on code-
quality, low bug/defects rate, reliability etc. and they'll love it!_
2\. "software developer" \- _use this for people priding on craftmanship and
"ability to ship the right stuff on time" no-respect-for degrees etc. and
they'll love it!_
2b. feel free to mix up (1) and (2) and nothing bad will happen :) also using
(1) or (2) instead of others will tend not offend, just show that the person
using it is clueless a bit.
3\. "programmer" \- _this is the most direct / no-bullshit term for people who
hate fancy extra words and pride on practicality and getting stuff done_ (but
it might offend ppl with fancy degrees or make them feel devalued - never use
it for a PhD unless you know beforehand he/she would approve)
4\. "software architect" (this is a dangerous one) - _can be used to boost the
self-confidence of smart but terribly insecure people_ (use it sparingly bc
some might be pushed tot he other extreme and end up with over inflated egos
bc of this... better add "senior" before "engineer", it's more honest, what we
call "architecture" in software is closer to "structural engineering planning"
or smth, very far off from what building architects do) ...also practical
senior no-bullshit people might be offended if someone junior to them gets
this title!
5\. "code monkey" ...the '99 bubble is over man, like 20 years ago, forget
about this, unless you're in SV or other hip place and some club/group uses it
for nostalgic-value _...otherwise it 's offensive, and God have mercy on your
soul if you mistakenly use it in a place where ppl are unused to it and at the
same time to refer to someone with non-white skin color!_
6\. "coder" \- might be acceptable in some places, but it's also cunningly
devaluing (see sister comment for details)... unless you have the malevolent
intent of "placing a hint of their personal irrelevance in someone's mind
while at the same time avoiding to offend them" please _avoid it!_ (might be
the worst of all actually, bc nobody can complain but at the same time you
spray them with a depressing hint of their inferiority while mildly boosting
your superiority and subtly lowering everyone's morale at the same time... and
then as a manager you end up asking yourself in the end why it all turned to
shit despite you being "such an awesome and nice guy")
~~~
Haga
Ugh, code monkey my boss is heavy into that lingua
~~~
makapuf
This one was definitely tong in cheek, as a clear not to use example of
course.
------
segmondy
When you realize your code has caused grave injury to someone, physically,
cost their life, ruined them financially or ruined a relationship.
Everyone pays attention to plane or space craft crash. But bad software in
cars, air bags, trains, medical equipment have cost lives. Bad software at
financial institution have occasionally ruined people financially. Bad social
media software have ruined relationships. Bad localhost software that has
crashed and taken data could ruin people in ways many people can't imagine.
Someone out there is using something as simple as a text editor to write their
favorite book or keep track of their finances and run their businesses. if the
editor screws up their data, you can't imagine the hardship.
You never know how your users will use your software, don't take it for
granted.
------
murphy214
Deleting the production database on your first day:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/6ez8ag/a...](https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/6ez8ag/accidentally_destroyed_production_database_on/)
Obligatory (poor guy): [https://github.com/MrMEEE/bumblebee-Old-and-
abbandoned/commi...](https://github.com/MrMEEE/bumblebee-Old-and-
abbandoned/commit/a047be85247755cdbe0acce6f1dafc8beb84f2ac)
~~~
Starwatcher2001
"Today was my first day on the job as a Junior Software Developer..."
And he has permissions to delete the production database? Heads much higher up
the tree need to roll.
~~~
lightbritefight
This was the general consensous on r/sysadmin when the post made it over
there.
If you can destroy a buisness on your first day, or even severly hobble it,
you have larger issues than a green dev.
------
harryf
Surprised to see no one has mentioned 3rd party APIs yet. Especially half-
baked, poorly documented SAAS APis where you're left wondering whether is was
designed by malice - to protect some vague business interest - or simply by
incompetence / lack of care / lack of time.
I've found the best mental defence in such situations is to assume the worst
from the outset, by expecting to have to burn untold hours figuring out how
this black box _really_ works and then be pleasantly surprised some parts
actually work OK. Better that than assuming "this can't be that that hard" and
ending up frustrated.
~~~
nshm
Exactly, also a frequent API changes for no reason. Tensorflow is a good
example of this. Looks like every month they schedule a meeting on what they
gonna break next. They seem to enjoy thousands of github issues about cryptic
messages on renamed nodes in the neural network models.
~~~
gauku
Struggling through their newly released tensorflow-graphics library right now.
They wrote it, published some simple, single google-colab tutorials and left
it at that. No documentation anywhere else
------
kazinator
What is the basis for the belief that there was a single person, who wrote the
program for the psychologist, and perpetrated the compiler hack?
This could be a case that person B was innocently working on the curses-based
questionnaire program for the psychologist. Person A was aware of this work
and hacked the compiler to recognize and doctor that program (including
squashing it down to one line), in addition to /sbin/login and possibly
others.
I'm curious how the program managed to include various headers, like
<curses.h>. That requires multiple lines. I'm thinking that the hacked
compiler took the _preprocessed_ original innocent program and then output it
as one line not requiring any preprocessing directives. Not even necessarily
to obfuscate it, but because the division into lines was gone at the point in
the compiler where this was done; i.e. this was a manipulation of the token
stream of the program, and the tokens were just converted back to text and
output as one line.
Could even be that this was all done in the C preprocessor rather than the
compiler proper, by recognition and replacement of token sequences. Though
modern compilers integrate the preprocessing phases of the language, this
sounds like it was in a classic Unix environment, in which cpp was still a
separate program.
~~~
leoh
It is strange to think that someone with this level of skills was in a
graduate program in psychology (as opposed to working in industry as an
engineer).
~~~
kazinator
Better that than making another NewLisp, I suppose.
------
geoffmunn
Spending ages debugging javascript with alert boxes, publishing the final
code, and then hearing that the homepage has an alert box that says "hi" on
it.
~~~
u02sgb
Not "hi" it usually says "this should never happen" :)
------
eindiran
Reminds me of this story: [https://www.teamten.com/lawrence/writings/coding-
machines/](https://www.teamten.com/lawrence/writings/coding-machines/)
------
billrobertson42
Realizing that "coder" is largely a pejorative term and most people have no
idea and appreciation for what you do.
~~~
gurkendoktor
Is this a regional thing? I haven't ever perceived it that way over the
internet or here in Europe, but I've seen several comments who agree with you
on HN.
~~~
tensor
I'm in NA and also don't understand why coder is negative. I remember it was
very common in the old demoscene days. I've never even seen someone non-
technical use the term. Usually non-technical people use programmer.
The one that irks me is engineer. I've met very few developers who have the
sort of professionalism that the term engineer requires. Most developers are
more like cowboys whose primary goals are making other developers and
themselves happy. An engineer needs to instead feel responsible for serving
the users of the application, which includes maintenance by others as a
subgoal. No doubt my definition of engineering is not popular here.
------
meddlepal
Carpal tunnel or losing ability to use my arms/hands.
~~~
Causality1
Yeah, my first thought was of the guy who blogged the whole time an inoperable
brain tumor was killing him. Over the course of multiple years I watched as it
robbed him of his intellect. The cleverness faded. The subtlety faded. His
posts started getting shorter, and then started getting sloppier. His grasp of
grammar was failing. Shortly before he died his final post was "love you kids.
love you wife."
That's my worst nightmare.
~~~
wwweston
I'm not sure there's objectively worse things than that.
But I think one could make a good argument his final post indicates he had
people who probably cared for him during his deterioriation, in part because
love for them had been a north star for him.
Maybe suffering such an end without that would be worse.
------
Washuu
Mine: Being forced into management. Which is happening.
~~~
pivo
It happened to me about a year ago. I hated it at first but began to like some
parts of it eventually. I'll never like the "paperwork" and the chores
navigating inscrutable internal applications and processes, but having real
influence over the direction of products is very satisfying.
------
kylec
Data loss. Behavioral bugs can be fixed, but if you hose your customers' data,
it's gone forever.
------
Marazan
Having a project transfered to you that is "nearly finished"
------
swedish_mafia
Low iq MBA manager with insecurities charged with delivery. Usually vindictive
and on a power trip, and has social leverage on some senior exec.
~~~
etripe
I'm living that right now, except he has no MBA, is a consultant, has the
dogged determination of an elderly employee on his last ever career project
and used his leverage to bring in a bunch of unqualified architect yes-men.
------
PebblesHD
Bugs that you can reproduce perfectly in production but not at all in any of
20+ non-production environments is my usual one... and it usually winds up
being some updated Oracle binary...
~~~
larkeith
Better or worse than a bug that appears once every few months in Prod, but
only when it's raining at the customer's location, and never on Sundays?
(This is an actual issue I've encountered. It had to do with code scraping
weather data for a horse racetrack, specifically if the page was updated while
the scraper ran. It was buried in a PHP monolith with no tests. The track
didn't run races on Sunday.)
------
MichaelMoser123
Working as a programmer for Amazon (at least that was my experience)
~~~
zerogvt
Strange thing to hear. Can you expand a bit?
~~~
MichaelMoser123
Search for "Median tenure at Amazon" (they say that is 13 months)
------
lallysingh
Code reviews complaining that your code isn't cargo-cult enough.
~~~
ljm
I would add 'unforgiving use of linters' to that, where 'unforgiving'
generally means that straying even a hair's breadth from the default settings
is forbidden.
Especially so when you can't adjust those defaults, thus making your post-
listed code substantially more abstract and less readable than it would have
been at first.
Case in point: forcing your simple 11-line function to become something more
complicated that has to maintain state through each call.
~~~
silversconfused
Been there. Other dev on my team INSISTED on limiting to 80 char lines in a
codebase with many long strings. It just wasn't appropriate.
------
AnanasAttack
How about infringing on a patent for inventing something independently without
knowing it?
------
l0b0
Being asked to "improve" a piece of internal software with not a single hint
of what actually needed doing. After two meetings where nothing more concrete
than "make it better" came up, I quietly continued working on actually
achievable stuff until I left a few months later. When I checked up on my
colleagues a few years later the damn thing was still in limbo.
------
synthc
Writing a stupid bug in a critical system that causes people to get injured or
killed.
------
camtarn
The rest of the answers to this question can be found here, for the curious:
[https://www.quora.com/What-is-a-coders-worst-
nightmare/](https://www.quora.com/What-is-a-coders-worst-nightmare/)
------
amriksohata
Obtaining poor requirements, then being accountable for maintaing the feature
and codebase having had little influence on decisions, especially if the
people behind the requirements have now left the organisation.
------
craftoman
>What is a coder's worst nightmare?
Hired by a company and realize afterwards that you must work on a project
that's designed and built on potatoes using potato languages and potato tools
------
yoodenvranx
My personal nightmare:
Working in a company where I have only one monitor and a PC without SSDs. And
I am not allowed to bring my own mouse/keyboard. And I don't have admin rights
for the OS.
~~~
Const-me
I totally agree with the general idea. Especially the mouse.
However, since I’ve bought my 27” 4k monitor I pretty much stopped using extra
ones. Unless I have to for something very specific, like debugging an app
which output to multiple monitors.
------
ex3ndr
Interesting hacking task and free time is a nightmare?
------
readams
This story of course makes obligatory a link to Reflections on Trusting Trust,
Ken Thompson's Turing award lecture, which first popularized this concept.
[https://www.archive.ece.cmu.edu/~ganger/712.fall02/papers/p7...](https://www.archive.ece.cmu.edu/~ganger/712.fall02/papers/p761-thompson.pdf)
------
Roritharr
Having to refactor the IRS.
[https://youtu.be/qL5ut8o5pfs](https://youtu.be/qL5ut8o5pfs)
------
chungleong
A manager who engages in circular reasoning is a nightmare that never ends.
------
dstola
Going viral on the internet for an embarrassing situation .. if that ever
happens I will finally realize my dream of becoming a hermit in the wilderness
------
retiredcoder
Changing jobs is very stressful for me. I have put up with a lot of BS to
avoid that stress, can seem to get better but worse actually.
------
RcouF1uZ4gsC
Mine is being drugged and hit with a $5 wrench in order to get me to give up
my password
[https://xkcd.com/538/](https://xkcd.com/538/)
~~~
Havoc
This plus TSA demanding passwords to corporate laptop. Mountains of
confidential client data compromised...or in custody. hmm...which to pick
------
diamondo25
Deploying something on friday and figuring it out its broken production monday
morning.
------
daodedickinson
We're always finding something tainted about memories taken for granted. A
fine story.
------
bencollier49
Ah, this old chestnut. Has anyone analysed the cycle time for stories on HN?
------
triplee
Being forced into a management job with no direction or mentoring.
------
m_ransing
"What crash? It is working fine on my machine."
------
mothsonasloth
"Hey X, mind if I push this quick hotfix to live?"
------
codesternews
I will loose my job because of AI epidemic :D
------
matz1
Asked to reverse binary tree.
------
yknx4
PHP, period
------
jjtheblunt
obfuscated Perl?
------
andrewstuart
Stuff that doesn't work, leading to days of problem solving.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Should I drop out for an online CS degree? - throwaway19123
My current university is less than challenging and has a lot of Mickey Mouse courses that teach buzzwords like AI and integrated data platforms (in the first semester!) without actually talking about implementation or even the theory behind them. I don’t think I’ll get a lot of value in the next few years.<p>I have the option of starting the BSc Computer Science program by the University of London partnered with Coursera. The curriculum seems more standard and the online delivery will free up a lot of time for self study.<p>Will the choice of either matter in the long run? Is it worth taking the gamble of an online degree with the potential payoff of learning much more?
======
ThrowawayR2
That really depends. If you think you want to pursue a career track that is
going to requires you to learn CS well (FAANG job or a specialization like DSP
or data science), then it's a good investment. If you plan to be just an run-
of-the-mill frontend or backend web dev, the consensus on HN seems to be that
the quality of your education won't matter much one way or another.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Is getting a CS degree only way to get Software engineering job? - jackallis
i guess i would like to meet these mythical self taught software engineers.
======
otras
I just commented this on another thread, but it's also relevant here:
As someone who entered the field with a non-CS degree, I can tell you about my
own experience. I graduated with a degree in physics without any programming
experience and now work at one of the big tech companies. If I had to do it
again with programming in mind, I would absolutely take computer science in
school and do as many internships as I could to gain work experience.
With a STEM non-CS degree it was an uphill battle for years, and it would have
been even more so without a degree at all. There's a huge amount of luck
involved, and I spent a _lot_ of time working outside of my day job to build
skills and a portfolio to get my first real programming job at a startup.
I also never want any additional reason for a potential employer to pass on my
resume, and not having a CS degree is potentially one of them. I have been
able to offset this with the classes I've since taken and fortunately the name
recognition of my current company, but it would have been nice to have had it
from the start.
------
stuntkite
There isn't even a ton of Computer Science in most low-mid level programming
jobs. Having the luxury of getting a CS degree is an amazing thing, but I've
always had trouble with hiring fresh CS grads. The facts on the ground are
that you need to write code, every day.
While this job does provide a lot of upward mobility in our current culture, I
will also say that it's not a job for everyone like some recent loud groups
will say. It sucks and is really hard and to be really good you have to be
able to not care about that enough for the days when you really really do
something great.
If you can get a CS degree without going into unreasonable debt, do it.
Especially if your real goal is something like becoming the next Robert Moog.
Weather you do or don't though, you should probably be writing code today and
tomorrow.
------
osrec
I'm a non-CS grad, but have been programming almost daily since I was 11 (so
about 20 years). I'm more or less self taught and I now run a tech company,
with around 50 tech staff, most of them coders.
When I hire someone, I pretty much ignore their degree. Why? Because I've seen
CS grads who don't know how to program very well at all, and I've seen English
grads that are programming gods.
I think it comes down to passion. If you see programming as just a job, you'll
have a hard time self teaching it to yourself. If you see it as a pleasure, an
art form, the learning will happen without you even realising it!
Words of wisdom from someone in my team: programming is infinitely more fun
when the pressure is off.
------
fractalwrench
Nope, although I'd say that a STEM degree does help.
My observation is that around half the people I've worked with in this
industry have a CS degree, and most of the rest have an
engineering/maths/physics degree. There are a few people who don't have
typical qualifications (myself included) or no degree at all, but as a general
rule I would say it's less common.
If you don't have a degree, it doesn't matter - but you will still need to
demonstrate that you can do the work. Having 1-2 substantial Github projects
in your portfolio is a good way of achieving this, along with studying online
courses such as CS50 so that you know basic data structures/algorithms.
------
websitescenes
Not necessary but you’ll have to bust your ass to get the equivalent
experience.
------
billhathaway
No, and it isn't a binary choice of self-taught vs 4 year CS degree. Check out
[https://lambdaschool.com/](https://lambdaschool.com/)
~~~
spdebbarma
I cannot thank you enough for introducing Lambda School to me.
Nevermind; International students can't get the same offer to pay off the
tuition after getting a job.
~~~
austenallred
Co-founder of Lambda School here. We’re opening up new countries/regions very
rapidly. EU launches in Jan, a new area every 3-6 months after that, so hold
tight.
~~~
spdebbarma
Hello, I'm from India and I am really looking forward to this opportunity. I
wish I could explain how excited I was to find out about your program. As
someone from a low-income family who decided to teach himself because college
was too expensive, you must realize what an amazing chance your school is to
better our lives. Keep up the good work.
Meanwhile, I'll just continue learning on my own.
------
Bucephalus355
Not since the “great H1-B famine of 2018”. I work for one of the larger
accounting / consulting firms. We are rolling a program out next year to hire
directly out of high school (!). They are going to take care of the whole
training pipeline themselves. Apparently they modeled it after what Nucor
Steel does: [http://www.nucor.com/careers/training/technical-
academy/](http://www.nucor.com/careers/training/technical-academy/)
~~~
kkarakk
oh wow this is going to create a whole lot of "people who can't do anything
else& think in very particular ways"
~~~
reidjs
What makes you think that? I don’t think a college degree is strictly
necessary to be an intelligent person.
~~~
kkarakk
your education influences how you think. universities and colleges invariably
have political stances and the provision to learn the good/bad of the same. i
shudder to think what a company will do to kids straight out of highschool
with the same amount of time
unions bad! does work life balance really matter? are conservative ideologies
really better fundamentally? these are viewpoints you can EASILY inculcate in
a teenager given the right amount of
motivation(responsibilities,perks,money,being treated as an adult etc etc)
i can't see how a company would NOT abuse this. it's a golden opportunity to
create drones that work perfectly ONLY in your culture
~~~
iwiririwo
This. Thank you for putting my vague thoughts into words.
Teenagers deserve time to think about stuff and to adults.
------
jamestimmins
No, but many hundreds/thousands of hours programming are necessary. School is
a great way to get that, but certainly not the only way. If you're
willing/able to get started (by completing a Python for Beginners course or
equivalent), then learn a stack and keep making things that challenge you, and
are disciplined about filling in the knowledge gaps (algorithms are a
gatekeeper skill), it's very doable. It just takes patience, discipline, and
legitimate interest over a long period of time.
~~~
jammygit
I wouldn't argue that school gives you programming experience. I've had maybe
5 programming-heavy courses where I learned a lot. That's what, 1 semester?
Personally, all the actual programming skill I have is from weekends and
summers, and sometimes from skipping lectures to work on side projects.
All the material I've been through has been shallower and less useful than
what I could have found online or in a book.
~~~
tropo
Well yes, the degree is purposely inefficient (to extract money) but it is the
only game in town due to accreditation that is controlled by the self-
interested schools that are already accredited. Basically, you're dealing with
a cartel.
------
InGodsName
No it's not! But it's a way to get a well paid job right out of university.
If you don't have a degree, you'll struggle for sometime while you build
enough contacts in the industry where the degree stop mattering and references
get you through the door without even an interview.
You simply have to lot better to get any recognization in the industy but in
networking skills and technical experience.
I am a self taught drop out who never sat through an interview, worked in 5
companies. Now i am a CTO of one startup.
------
mpatobin
I don't have a CS or engineering degree but I've been working as a developer
for over a year. My advice is to have a good portfolio of projects that you
can use to showcase what you can do.
I had major imposter syndrome in the beginning but now I'm a key contributor
to the product. You learn a ton on the job so it's important to apply for one
before you feel completely 'ready'
------
davidhbolton
I have a Comp sci. degree which opened doors to big firms, specifically it
meant my CV didn't automatically get binned by recruitment agencies.
But if you have the experience and some kind of portfolio to show it off,
especially in web and mobile development, you can get jobs without a degree.
These technologies are still changing faster than colleges can track.
------
mettamage
You would like to meet them? Go to a university, stand in front of them and
ask to business student "who of you creates websites and programs in
JavaScript?" if one or more hand(s) goes up, boom, found them.
------
sethammons
No, but I would recommend it. I am a business major and cs minor. Probably
should have double majored, I would have gotten to where I am now much more
quickly. We have college drop outs and maybe even a high school drop out at
work. They fight an uphill battle, but it can be done for sure.
------
bdcravens
I have no CS degree. I've been developing professionally since 1999. (I had no
degree of any kind at the time - I've since picked up a couple of non-
technical associate degrees that really have no bearing on my career)
------
JoshuaAshton
No. There is plenty of remote contract work available for people with much
experience (esp. with legacy or open source software.) It really also depends
heavily about what sector you want to go in.
------
CyberFonic
As a contractor and consultant I have worked with hundreds of programmers.
Very few have CS degrees. The self-taught ones tend to specialise in specific
tools and areas. It is very hard to maintain the discipline to be a self
taught SE with equivalent knowledge to those doing a SE degree.
A formal course in software engineering is not CS. SE courses focus on theory,
principles, design, rather like other fields of engineering, e.g. mechanical
or civil. A lot of programming is required for exercises and projects but the
courses only cover languages and tools in passing. Of course, there are huge
differences in how SE is taught in different universities.
------
solomatov
It's not the only way, but considering the current trends, it gets harder and
harder with time to get a good job without a CS degree.
------
ncmncm
I generally get substantially better results from engineers than from CS
graduates.
If you are serious about programming as a profession, study engineering. The
job has changed enormously over decades, but engineers train for adaptability.
------
someguy111
No, we hire EE majors and Computer engineering majors.
------
kobiguru
No.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web - carsonfarmer
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/sep/08/decentralisation-next-big-step-for-the-world-wide-web-dweb-data-internet-censorship-brewster-kahle
======
sixdimensional
It strikes me that, if we are ever to expand the Internet into space on a
universal scale (a la Vint Cerf and "delay tolerant networking", as an
example), the inherent physics problems involved with distances and
connectivity in space would probably make decentralization an absolute
requirement. I mean, it seems it would not be uncommon for there to be a
"local net" and a "universal peer-to-peer or mesh network net".
We're obviously a long way off from colonizing space and needing the Internet
to spread, but we still have the physics problems here on Earth.
I'm not convinced that centralization in its current iteration (cloud
operators controlling huge infrastructures) is the best long run. As we saw
with the recent Azure outage in South Central US, even the huge infrastructure
can have problems too.
Secure decentralization has seemed like a panacea for a long time - for all
things that resemble a public utility. Even things like the power grid.
~~~
amelius
On a related note, I'm wondering how distributed systems that rely on atomic
clocks (e.g. Google Spanner) would work in the space era, given that
relativity says that there's no such thing as a global clock.
~~~
gunnihinn
I suppose those continue working fine in very local systems (contained in a
ball of a few light-seconds radius) whose components move at speeds where
relativistic effects can be discarded. Drop those constraints and you also
need to drop even system-local globality because of relativity.
~~~
gunnihinn
You _could_ introduce the One True Lamport Clock, and as long as you're in its
light cone you can get global syncronization, but that comes at the cost of
having to learn a lot about patience.
~~~
AllegedAlec
That would only work up until the point at which we start to travel at
portions of c.
------
kickscondor
Beaker Browser (mentioned as one of many possibilities in this article) is the
real deal. If it doesn't get you fired up about the possibilities, then - well
let me explain I guess:
* The interface is dead simple - share this folder, done.
* It is a read-write browser. Netscape (and other browsers) used to be this way - they had some limited HTML creation tools. Beaker brings this back in the form of making an "editable copy" of a website. It's a choice in the address bar.
* Making an "editable copy" doesn't have to mean you're now editing raw HTML. An editable copy can direct how it is edited through JS. (See the recently released "dead-lite" for an example of this.)
All these attempts are exciting but I'm actually starting to use Beaker
because it's so useful even without adoption.
~~~
zmw
I checked out Beaker Browser, and apparently it's based on the Dat project
[1], which seems to be very similar to IPFS. Then apparently it follows that,
just like IPFS, you can't throw random things onto the network and expect it
to stick; you need to pay someone for hosting and bandwidth (that someone
could be yourself) to have it pinned, and in order to have it available
worldwide at all times you still need to pay for a CDN of sort — the Linux box
in your closet, or worse, your laptop that sometimes goes offline just won't
cut it. Eventually it's just another protocol to copy stuff around, where
stuff originates from various servers (your browser basically embeds a server,
capable of serving stuff), with the possible benefit of popular stuff may be
p2p'ed (but if you're a business you probably can't rely on that anyway). I
fail to see how it's radically different.
(Also, I'm not even sure how you could p2p private user data, unless you
expect everyone to carry around one or more yubikeys, or implant chips into
fingers or something; plus all devices need into buy into that. But I haven't
given that much thought.)
[1] [https://datproject.org/](https://datproject.org/)
~~~
pfraze
Some things in p2p hypermedia (dat) that's not possible with http/s:
* You can generate domains freely using pubkeys and without coordinating with other devices, therefore enabling the browser to generate new sites at-will and to fork existing sites
* Integrity checks & signatures within the protocol which enables multiple untrusted peers to 'host'. This also means the protocol scales horizontally to meet demand.
* Versioned URLs
* Protocol methods to read site listings and the revision history
* Offline writes which sync to the network asynchronously
* Standard Web APIs for reading, writing, and watching the files on Websites from the browser. This means the dat network can be used as the primary data store for apps. It's a networked data store, so you can build multi-user applications with dat and client-size JS alone.
I'm probably forgetting some. You do still need devices which provide uptime,
but they can be abstracted into the background and effectively act as
dumb/thin CDNs. And, if you don't want to do that, it is still possible to use
your home device as the primary host, which isn't very easy with HTTP.
~~~
zmw
Thanks for the list.
> You can generate domains freely using pubkeys and without coordinating with
> other devices, therefore enabling the browser to generate new sites at-will
> and to fork existing sites.
Not entirely sure what you mean,
\- We can generates HTTP sites at will (all you need is an IP address);
\- We have existing protocols for mirroring sites (not implemented
universally, but nor is dat://);
\- When you talk about pubkeys with coordination, there are obvious problems
like the last paragraph of my original comment, right? Again, I'm probably
misinterpreting what you're saying.
> Integrity checks & signatures within the protocol which enables multiple
> untrusted peers to 'host'.
Basically subresource integrity? Granted, with this protocol you can in theory
retrieve objects from any peers (provided that they actually want to cache/pin
your objects), not just the ones behind a revproxy/load balancer, so that's a
potential win from decentralization.
> Versioned URLs
We can have that over HTTP, but usually it's not economical to host old stuff.
In this case, someone still needs to pin the old stuff, no? I can see that
client side snapshots could be more standardized, but we do have WARC with
HTTP.
(EDIT: on second thought, it's much easier to implement on the "server"-side
too.)
> Protocol methods to read site listings and the revision history
> Standard Web APIs for reading, writing, and watching the files on Websites
> from the browser.
You can build that on top of HTTP too.
My takeaway is it's simply a higher-level protocol than HTTP, so it's unfair
to compare it to HTTP. Are there potential benefits from being decentralized?
Yes. But most of what you listed comes from being designed as a higher-level
protocol.
~~~
pfraze
> We can generates HTTP sites at will (all you need is an IP address);
That's not really so easy from a consumer device with a dynamic IP.
> \- When you talk about pubkeys with coordination, there are obvious problems
> like the last paragraph of my original comment, right? Again, I'm probably
> misinterpreting what you're saying.
You do need to manage keys and pair devices, yeah.
> My takeaway is it's simply a higher-level protocol than HTTP, so it's unfair
> to compare it to HTTP. Are there potential benefits from being
> decentralized? Yes. But most of what you listed comes from being designed as
> a higher-level protocol.
The broader concept of Beaker is to improve on the Web, and we do that by
making it possible to author sites without having to setup or manage a server.
Decentralization is a second-order effect. Any apps that use dat for the user
profile & data will be storing & publishing that data via the user's device.
Those apps will also be able to move some/all of their business logic
clientside, because theyre just using Web APIs to read & write. Add to that
the forkability of sites, and you can see why this can be decentralizing: it
moves more of the Web app stack into the client-side where hopefully it'll be
easier for users to control.
~~~
zmw
> Decentralization is a second-order effect.
I see, I was looking at it backwards.
------
antpls
When we think about decentralization, we sometime think about uncontrolled
extreme decentralization. That's the ideal : no single point of failure, with
everyone hosting their data where they want, and deciding who access what
about them.
Practically, as pointed in the article, there are laws to comply with and
those are IMHO the biggest lock to decentralization.
The fair middle ground between extreme centralization à la Facebook/Twitter
and total network anarchy is something based on federation, like emails and
Mastodon. With federations, there are several providers for the same end-user
application, with native data exchange and interoperability. The idea is to
give the power to anyone with hosting capabilities to compete with the Giants,
even if only a few domains will actually survive (like Gmail, Hotmail, etc
because of network effects and funds, probably).
What we need is a framework, or a backbone, that allows people to easily
create new federated-native apps ("dapps") without thinking about consensus
issues, protocols versioning, and with native laws compliance.
~~~
PinkMilkshake
> What we need is a framework, or a backbone, that allows people to easily
> create new federated-native apps ("dapps") without thinking about consensus
> issues, protocols versioning, and with native laws compliance.
I agree that this is probably the way forward. The only downside is how your
identity is tied to the service provider you choose. It was a PITA when
Lavabit went down and I lost that email address.
~~~
synctext
> The only downside is how your identity is tied to the service provider you
> choose.
Fully agree with this. The link to identity is not often brought up. I run a
university lab focussed on re-decentralisation of the Internet as a day job.
We focus on identity & p2p + trust.
Beaker browser is impressive early work focussed on the raw bit transport. It
re-uses DNS for global discovery, its hard to do everything decentralised at
once. How to do global search on a decentralised Twitter or spam control?
The hard issue we need to solve in the coming decade is the governance of such
systems. Ideally it would rule itself. Definition of a self-governance system
as: a distributed system in which autonomous individuals can collectively
exercise all of the necessary functions of power without intervention from any
authority which they cannot themselves alter.
~~~
naveen99
Would be nice if all devices that wanted to be routable could get an ipv6
address including mobile, and we not have to worry about turn and stun...
------
bobm_kite9
This seems to miss the problem completely to me. The internet essentially
solved the problem of _distribution_. That meant disintermediating away from
publishers, and allowed anyone to publish.
The problem then moved onto being one of _curation_. Companies such as google,
facebook, amazon are in the business of providing curation: i.e. taking away
the leg-work of what we should attend to.
A de-centralized web doesn't appear to decentralize the problem of curation at
all, which means we are going to still end up with centralized curation and
the same or similar monopolies on attention that we have now.
------
drasticmeasures
This kind of decentralisation -- taking existing platforms controlled by
megacorps and making them P2P...
...feels, to me, like a huge mistake.
How would one eliminate hate speech and toxic content from it? Or illegal
content? Or anything you put there and need removed to keep living your life
freely? The technologists developing this tech hand-wave these concerns away
citing "freedom of speech" \-- but one's freedom ends where another's begins,
and hate speech, toxic content, illegal content, not being able to have what
you said or did forgotten online, all these things curtail someone's freedom.
And by making it decentralised, they're just making it harder for people who
are the victims of these problems to hold the people responsible accountable
and to stop them. These technologists want freedom of speech at the expense of
everyone else's freedom.
~~~
zzzcpan
> How would one eliminate
You simply make your own choices and don't follow/subscribe/view all that
illegal, toxic, hate content. You know, the same way you do today by not
visiting all those illegal, toxic, hate websites. They still exists though for
those who don't share your views on policing content for other people.
~~~
drasticmeasures
Ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away for the victims.
The women whose boyfriends posted private sex pictures as revenge, or the
minorities who will be the victims of hate groups organizing on social media,
the children who were filmed while being raped and have their video
circulating online, the victims of bullying whose bullies are empowered by
other people seeing it and not doing anything to stop them...
You can choose to ignore this when you see it, but the victims can't, and it's
for their freedom that I'm concerned for.
~~~
zzzcpan
But you are advocating exactly that - ignoring the problem by blocking content
instead of dealing with people engaging in those behaviors.
~~~
Faark
Yeah, its kind of ridiculous having e.g. the german government expect Facebook
what posts are and then delete hate speech and co. If that stuff is illegal,
then the persons doing so should be held accountable by our legal system. But
politicians love using those companies as easy scape goat. Anyway, p2p
solutions usually try to make finding a person to hold accountable harder than
current centralized services.
------
tannhaeuser
I'm all for decentralized apps, but before venturing into that kind of
complexity, how about getting back control over the Web? It was created as
decentralized net (if not in the blockchain sense) and is the work of an
entire generation.
~~~
dcposch
That's what this is about.
Current web tech is inherently centralizing. Say you want to create an
experience like Instagram or Twitter, delivered via HTTP. You have to pay for
bandwidth, CDNs, storage, app servers, DB servers, etc etc. At scale, it's
millions a month. So only corporations can do it, and with a few exceptions
(eg Craigslist, Stack Exchange) they end up monetizing and "growth hacking" in
user hostile ways.
The big open question is: can we create an experience as compelling as
Instagram or Twitter over the P2P web?
It's a hard technical challenge, and today the answer is no. But if we get
there, then internet mass media can be delivered via open source projects over
open protocols, with a bunch of competing clients to chose from. No central
organization controls and monetizes the thing.
Like BitTorrent, but for applications more complex and interactive than just
file sharing.
\--
If you're interested, here are imo the most compelling projects in this space:
\- Dat
\- Beaker
\- Augur
\- OpenBazaar
\- Patchwork / Secure Scuttlebutt
They are working on overlapping subsets of the same fundamental challenges,
eg:
\- How does a node choose what to download? The BitTorrent answer is "only
things the user explicitly asked for". The blockchain answer is "the entire
global dataset since the start of time". For something like a decentralized
Twitter, both of those are unsatisfactory, you need something in between.
\- How do you log in? Current systems either have no persistent identity at
all (eg BitTorrent) or they just generate a local keypair, and it's your job
to back it up and never lose it (eg SSB, Dat, all blockchain protocols). Both
are unacceptable for wide-audience social media. Ppl lose their devices, get
new devices, forget their password, etc all the time. They expect and rely on
password reset, etc.
So there's a lot of hard tech and UX problems left unsolved, but also a lot of
recent projects making solid progress
~~~
magila
The hosting cost for things like Facebook and Twitter are a pittance compared
to the cost of employing all of the engineers/designers/etc who enhance and
maintain those services. _That_ IMO is the biggest economic challenge facing
decentralized applications.
You can make some nice proof-of-concepts with a group of volunteers, but the
effort required to provide a UX comparable to centralized services is going to
take more than a handful of people working evenings and weekends.
Decentralized services generally do not afford the same monetization
opportunities as central services. Decentralized proponents consider this a
feature rather than a bug, but it leaves open the question: Who is going to
pay for all of this?
~~~
adventured
> The hosting cost for things like Facebook and Twitter are a pittance
> compared to the cost of employing all of the engineers/designers/etc who
> enhance and maintain those services.
Facebook had $20.4 billion in operating expenses in 2017. Less than 1/3 of
that was the cost of its 25,000 employees (at the end of 2017). Facebook is
spending more on its infrastructure than it is on all of its employees
combined (and that much more when you reduce it to just engineers). Engineers
are maybe 1/5 of its operating costs, including their all-in costs.
Both Facebook and Alphabet had roughly $15 billion in total capex for 2017.
Data centers, networks, electricity, et al. cost a lot at that scale. It's not
a pittance. Facebook spent ~$7 billion in 2017 on capital expenditures related
to their network, data centers, etc.
Facebook's first Asia data center is a billion dollars to just start up.[1]
When they put up new data centers in places like Henrico County VA, New Albany
OH, or Newton County GA, it's similarly nearly a billion dollars a shot to
start those up. Once you have dozens of those operating, it's billions of
dollars per year to operate them all.
[1] [https://money.cnn.com/2018/09/06/technology/facebook-
singapo...](https://money.cnn.com/2018/09/06/technology/facebook-
singapore/index.html)
~~~
jonnydubowsky
I wonder how much of that cost is toward user-facing improvements and how much
is toward extracting additional profit out of the surveillance economics
model? As Mastodon and Patchwork and other federated social media platforms
continue to grow, it would be an interesting and useful effort to analyze the
cost structure of these alternatives.
------
brianzelip
A good recent podcast about the decentralized web, with a technical focus, is
JS Party #42,
[https://changelog.com/jsparty/42](https://changelog.com/jsparty/42).
Featuring Mathias Buus and Paul Frazee from the Beaker project.
~~~
kickscondor
Thankyou for mentioning this! I hadn't seen it passed around I guess.
------
jotm
How long until it reverts back to some nodes having way more
influence/power/data than the others?
This is not only a technology problem, it's (mostly, I'd say) a social one.
Humans will always want more power and control, whether it's in real life or
online.
Every single type of governance has fallen victim to human greed and ambition,
as will any kind of Internet, I believe.
Fix the users - save the Internet! :)
~~~
elvinyung
I think a lot about this.
In _A Thousand Plateaus_ , Deleuze and Guattari talk about the opposition
between the state apparatus and the "war machine" (their term for a
nomadic/decentralized structure). They talk about how it seems like nomadic
societies are primitive, but actually a lot of nomadic societies have
"collective mechanisms of inhibition" to ward off the formation of a state
apparatus, by preventing power from accumulating within any one party and
"evening it out" among everyone.
The applicability of D&G's ideas on the war machine to our current problem of
platform power is immediately apparent. A centralized platform is exactly like
a state apparatus. In our situation the collective mechanisms of inhibition
might be something like stronger/more proactive antitrust laws to break
up/nationalize entities that become infrastructural components of the society.
But as you've mentioned, I think this problem of "uneven development" is a
feature of any marketplace-like structure. In sufficiently large numbers, a
power law tends to assert itself with no other checks on power. This is why
blockchains by themselves won't solve the problem. The debate, then, shifts to
be about whether this is a feature or a bug, which is something that I'm never
sure about.
To close, another quote from ATP comes to mind ("smooth space" is another term
they use for nomadic spaces):
> Smooth spaces are not in themselves liberatory. But the struggle is changed
> or displaced in them, and life reconstitutes its stakes, confronts new
> obstacles, invents new paces, switches adversaries. Never believe that a
> smooth space will suffice to save us.
~~~
hestefisk
Awesome to see others on HN loving D&G. But perhaps also power is cyclical.
When the web was first popularised, it had the same potential as what DWeb has
now. TCP/IP was written to be inherently distributed and provide resilient
routing. Then, as soon as it starts to threaten existing power structures,
forces kick in to try and stabilise it through control, surveillance, and
‘governance’. It becomes part of the rhizome, the rhizomatic system of power,
that the new system (in this case TCP/IP / www) set out to challenge, creating
an even more complex, ever-evolving rhizome of power (surveillance, paywalls,
censorship). The same thing happened with other revolutions throughout history
— the power base they set out to challenge, transmorphed into a similar power
structure as an unintended consequence.
~~~
elvinyung
Well, I think this cyclical pattern shows exactly exactly why the thinking
around the war machine is so important. Thinking about this _very_ naively, to
get closer to the kind of smooth space that D&G conceptualize, it is necessary
to have some kind of homeostatic system that _recognizes_ abstractly when
power (and I'm using this term in a very naive, non-Foucauldian way) is being
disproportionately concentrated in any one body, and corrects accordingly.
That said, as from my previous comment, I'm not totally confident that this
kind of decentralization is even optimal, but that's a story for another time.
------
orasis
Large systems want to centralize for the sake of efficiency. I was among the
first wave of P2P hackers in the 2000s and we learned the hard way that
decentralization leaves a LOT to be desired.
~~~
antt
Not to mention that back then we a performance ratio of edge to node that was
order of magnitude better than the one we have today. A laptop today and one
from 2010 don't have that much difference in performance, a data center from
2010 and one from today are day and night.
And who will pay for it? With experience Xanadu seems like the only solution.
The reason why it's in development hell is because the problem it's trying to
solve is so hard.
------
wslh
There is an easy contrarian view about decentralization: even if a
decentralized protocol wins, at the end it is all about the UI/UX/Aggregation
which clearly cannot be decentralized. For example, OpenBazaar can be great
but the one who develop the best UI and search engine will win.
~~~
amelius
There is a semi-centralized solution: make search run on a handful of central
machines, and check if the results of (e.g.) two of them match.
~~~
fghtr
This problem is essentially solved by YaCy: [http://yacy.net](http://yacy.net)
~~~
wslh
I don't think you both understood what I said. It does not matter if you can
find a decentralized solution to a problem because at the end the user will
access it through an UI/UX/App that, in you example, can choose how to rank
the search results beyond what the protocol dictates.
In the past people used the simple "mail" command to read emails but now they
choose GMail or others because the UI/UX (or any other reason) is better or
they like it more. The SMTP (federated) protocol is hidden.
------
briatx
Repeat after me: The Internet is already decentralized. The web is already
decentralized.
Blockchains do not have a monopoly on decentralization. People who assert this
are trying to redefine the term to mean some kind of extreme P2P model that
fits their narrative.
~~~
hazz99
Repeat after me: It's effectively centralised. It's effectively centralised.
Almost all our traffic goes through Google, Amazon and Facebook. It's
extremely centralised.
Blockchain a don't claim to have a monpoloy - they're just the most recent
thing that's repopularised decentralisation.
If Amazon servers go down, so does a significant portion of the internet.
That's centralisation at work!
Blockchain tech doesn't claim to have a monopoly on the term
'decentralisation', it's just re-popularised the technology.
~~~
briatx
> Repeat after me: It's effectively centralised. It's effectively centralised.
So is bitcoin. Only 3 or 4 companies own the majority of mining.
Companies on the internet are centralized, but not the internet itself.
~~~
hazz99
Yeah, Bitcoin-based consensus probably isn't the best choice for a project
like this. I'd love to see a project that uses non-blockchain (but similarly
publicly immutable) tech, like Nano or Iota.
Still some issues with centralisation (since consesus is achieved through vote
delegates), but that's _much_ easier to fix than redistributing hashpower.
------
empath75
> And one of those is speed. Because of the way the DWeb works differently
> from the current web, it should intrinsically be faster
This seems wrong to me.
~~~
lbriner
I think the logic is that instead of everything going via a handful of servers
at the big companies, it goes through many more thousands of individual PCs
but of course, that depends on the technology used. Torrents _should_ be
faster but only if lots of people seed and don't simply download and
disconnect.
~~~
na85
Torrents themselves are often faster but it destroys the speed of anything
else on the same pipe.
~~~
voxadam
I found that configuring Smart Queue Management (SQM) on my OpenWrt router
drastically improved this issue.
[https://openwrt.org/docs/guide-user/network/traffic-
shaping/...](https://openwrt.org/docs/guide-user/network/traffic-shaping/sqm)
[https://openwrt.org/docs/guide-user/network/traffic-
shaping/...](https://openwrt.org/docs/guide-user/network/traffic-shaping/sqm-
details)
[https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/codel/wiki/](https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/codel/wiki/)
[https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/codel/wiki/CakeTechnica...](https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/codel/wiki/CakeTechnical/)
------
avhwl
There are inherent benefits to large, centralized platforms. Users, especially
content creators, desire a large network of users and excellent UX, both of
which have typically been properties of centralized systems or at least far
easier to achieve with centralized systems. Every decentralized social network
thus far has failed, and the modestly successful ones (Mastodon, for example)
are in fact federated.
Many of the problems alluded to in this article, in particular the privacy
risk of centralized data, are more effectively solved by policy changes and
iterated technology (differential privacy as well as bread-and-butter
cryptography) rather than furious hand-waving about blockchain protocols.
------
troquerre
Handshake.org is tackling this problem by decentralizing DNS and removing the
need for (and vulnerabilities associated with) certificate authorities.
Disclosure: I founded Namebase which is a registrar for Handshake
~~~
legionof7
I'm using the Namebase beta right now, it's great!
~~~
troquerre
Awesome, I'm glad you like it! We're shipping a mobile-first redesign soon
that's much better. Lmk if you'd like more testnet HNS when we do :)
------
mikebess
Complete decentralization as a philosophical and absolute goal misses the
point. There are great benefits to decentralization, for sure, just as there
are benefits to centralization. Projects that aim to decentralize everything
“for the sake of it” are doomed to failure. I want control over my privacy, my
spending, my choice of content. But at the same time, I want a great user
interface; I want curated content; I want performance. I want a service, and
I’m willing to pay for it. I don’t have a fundamental problem that there are
big companies out there who provide that service to me, and who make money
doing so. Even, in some cases, a whole lot of money. Good for them.
It boils down to: what’s the best way to provide services that I want?
I’m working on a project to provide a decentralized marketplace for software
and infrastructure services, competing with AWS and Azure. The marketplace
itself is blockchain-based: partially decentralized, but with a permissioned
blockchain that still allows governance, legal compliance, removal of bad
actors, KYC compliance, etc. The kind of things that customers (corporations)
need for them to use the marketplace.
I think we need to be pragmatic about it and figure out where technologies
like blockchains can help build better services, instead of trying to cram
decentralized systems into everything whether it makes sense or not.
------
pankajdoharey
Hasnt half of the decentralisation problem been already solved by the Tor
network which is encrypted and already decentralised? And they still regularly
identify and stop tor servers. What makes them so sure that the decentralised
nodes on a bitcoin network cannot be physically identified and stopped ? A
truly decentralised network cannot be built on borrowed network. A truly
decentralised interruption free, government free Internet would probably be
built on a satellite based network not this.
~~~
hazz99
Important note: Tor does not encrypt your traffic
Tor simply hides where your web requests originate from - it's up to you to to
visit HTTPS sites and encrypt your communications.
Also, Tor is quite decentralised but the existence of directory authorities
undermines this, since presents a centralised component.
~~~
LinuxBender
Sorry you are getting downvoted. This is very much correct and folks simply
put a lot of faith in the proxy transport as the ends to a means. One
vulnerability / bug (Tor has had many) can weaken that link. Tor is rarely
installed correctly or in a secure manor. (forcing all packets through it and
dropping anything that leaks from the browser, for starters)
~~~
hazz99
Do you have any links on how to install it properly, and to test that? (Maybe
through Wireshark or something similar) I admit I've haven't used it in-depth
(although I've studied the protocol quite a bit)
~~~
LinuxBender
I don't have one handy, though if you might find one in the documentation for
Tails linux OS.
At a high level, the client workstation must not be allowed to send any
packets to anything other than the socks port running on the Tor host. The
Workstation must have a static arp entry for it's gateway. The Workstation
should use a ram-disk linux distro and not persist anything to unencrypted
disk. The Tor host must not allow anything inbound other than the Tor SOCKS
port. The Tor node must only speak outbound on 80 and 443 (formerly known as
the fascist firewall setup). Ideally, the Tor node should be running on a
cheap VPS host, ideally payed for with a burner card and accessed via a VPN so
that Tor traffic from the home ISP is not evident. The VPS host should be
cycled from time to time.
This is of course a lot of setup work, but most of it can be automated.
[Edit] Speak of the devil. Here is a zero-day published on the Tor browser [1]
[1] - [https://www.zdnet.com/article/exploit-vendor-drops-tor-
brows...](https://www.zdnet.com/article/exploit-vendor-drops-tor-browser-zero-
day-on-twitter/)
------
sheeshkebab
With phones doubling performance every 1-2 years, and desktops/laptops largely
stagnating, it looks like in a few years, a server rack will fit into your
smartphone.
And most enterprise software (and almost no individual user) barely needs more
than a rack of current gen servers.
So yeah, decentralization will be upon us soon enough.
~~~
skybrian
This seems implausible. Moore's law is over and phones are limited by size and
power. There's no reason to believe progress will continue until a phone is
the same speed as a typical desktop machine, let alone a server rack.
~~~
adventured
Interestingly it's the centralized network that will grow radically more
powerful, while the home devices continue to stagnate.
The total capacity of infrastructure entities like AWS will increase by 10x at
a minimum over the next decade. By comparison, your phone or laptop will
modestly nudge forward. Consumers are not going to buy 10x the number of
laptops, desktops and smartphones that they do today, ten years out. Most
likely, those figures will barely move (the smartphone industry is already
stagnating). Most of the incremental spending and investment will go into the
centralized infrastructure by the giants.
Network speeds will continue to increase relatively rapidly. We can easily go
from routine 50-100mbps home lines to 1gbps over the next decade. We're not
going to see a 10x increase in the power of the average laptop (lucky if it
doubles in ten years). It's primarily going to be useful for
streaming/consuming very large amounts of data from epic scale central systems
for gaming, 4K+, VR, etc. Decentralized systems owned by consumers will be far
too weak to fill that role.
The AI future isn't going to be decentralized. The very expensive
infrastructure that will demand, and its need to run 24/7, will be centralized
and owned by extraordinarily large corporations.
It's precisely the typical consumer's home hardware that will act as the
ultimate bottleneck guaranteeing decentralized can never take off. This has
always been obvious, it won't prevent the fantasy from maintaining its allure
of course. That will perpetually draw headlines and hype in tech, for decades
to come, with no mass adoption breakthrough.
~~~
skybrian
That sounds very plausible to me, but I still think decentralized server-side
infrastructure has some potential. Sandstorm didn't take off and maybe
Mastodon isn't it, either, but it seems like someone's going to have consumer-
friendly, <$10/year, general-purpose server accounts for running apps. Maybe
some game will make it popular?
------
icc97
I hadn't heard of the Dweb, the term appears to have been coined by Mozilla
[0].
[0]: [https://hacks.mozilla.org/2018/07/introducing-the-d-
web/](https://hacks.mozilla.org/2018/07/introducing-the-d-web/)
~~~
lgierth
Nah, long before that, by the dweb community and the Internet Archive, leading
up to the first Decentralized Web Summit / DWeb Summit in 2016 :)
[https://2016.decentralizedweb.net/](https://2016.decentralizedweb.net/)
------
int_19h
Can there be a truly decentralized web without decentralized physical layer?
Mesh networks etc.
Which, of course, will not necessarily be connected... but that's a part of
decentralization and freedom. "Diamond Age" and its virtual polities come to
mind.
------
tomhallett
I have started a project as a way to explore how web applications can become
more decentralized. In the blockchain the starting point are dapps, so I’m
calling mine ddapps. Would love any constructive criticism (not quite ready
for ShowHN yet):
ddapp.org
------
dfee
Is there anywhere we can track the growth of these platforms though? For
entrepreneurs, we need to understand the opportunity, not to menation OS
developers adding support to their browsers to make this mainstream.
~~~
lgierth
Just the other day, Chrome declared their Intent-to-Implement-and-Ship for
more URL schemes in registerProtocolHandler(), which is a small first step:
[https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!topic/blink...](https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!topic/blink-
dev/29sFh4tTdcs)
Firefox has been supportive of the effort for some time already, working on
libdweb:
[https://github.com/mozilla/libdweb](https://github.com/mozilla/libdweb)
------
mrhappyunhappy
"lose your password and you lose access to everything" \- I'm sorry but this
UX blunder just won't fly. If we are to have decentralized web we'll need
services for key recovery.
~~~
CodeWriter23
I think you mean "services for account exploitation and warrantless search by
law enforcement"
~~~
UpshotKnothole
I, and I suspect many other people, often have online profiles and existences
and we simply don’t care about the government seeing it. Don’t get me wrong,
I’d like a high security option for _some_ things, but most of what I do
online is frankly trivial nonsense. I’d be much more upset if I lost access to
it forever than I would if some jackbooted thug decided to snoop around it.
Why does everything need to be the digital equivalent of a Supermax prison? I
want the full range from a guy on furlough to Hannibal Lector fullly
restrained, mask and all.
If you’re only willing to offer me the “Lector” package, I’m going to pass.
~~~
CodeWriter23
I'm more concerned about criminals using such proposed credential recovery
procedures to rob me. Thanks however for sharing your views about how we
should all trust the government without question.
------
cityzen
I think the web is still so new that people will really struggle to understand
a decentralized web. Even 20 years on and .com still reigns supreme as the
best TLD around.
I'm in tech and I'm interested in a decentralized web but I also feel that
throwing the baby out with the bathwater isn't a great idea. The article says,
"The decentralised web, or DWeb, could be a chance to take control of our data
back from the big tech firms." To me it sounds like we're basically saying,
"ok Facebook/Google/Twitter/Instagram... you're all too big to regulate so
we're going to build A WHOLE NEW INTERNET". If they're smart enough to pollute
the current system, they're smart enough to pollute a new system. In fact,
these corporations are so big that you'll find out eventually that they've
funded quite a bit of this decentralized web.
As a parent, I would feel at least a little better seeing some bankers, Pharma
bros, tech execs, etc. actually go to jail and have their lives ruined for
their blatant disregard of pretty much everything. I don't want to tell my
kids, "well, we're too dumb to regulate the internet so we made another one..
and that one got messed up too... herp derp"
~~~
troquerre
.com still reigns supreme but the icann only recently started letting people
register new TLDs, and even then only 500 a year are registered. Handshake is
helping to solve this by decentralizing DNS and letting anyone register new
TLDs, so in the future .com may be way less popular than it is today.
Disclosure: I founded Namebase.io which is a registrar for Handshake
~~~
wolco
When you use a .com you expect the domain to just work.
When you pick a random tld like .io for example you are not getting the
reliability of a .com. .io had a few big issues last year (1/5 of dns queries
were failing, ex-google employee bought ns-a1.io and was able to take over all
.ios).
As more tlds come from good and bad faith actors people will flock to .com as
a known respected entity. Limiting to .com, .org, .net and country codes and
slowly introducing new tlds made more sense and gave time to estiblish trust /
create brand awareness. 500 a year creates noise and forces distrust of any
unusual or new tld.
------
vezycash
IMO, there are two key barriers to a decentralized internet (other factors are
minor in comparison.)
(1) IPv4 (2) Bandwidth limits
IPv6 makes NAT unnecessary. With IP scarcity gone, IP addresses might become
permanent like phone numbers.
ISPs are currently making money off fixed IP addresses. Market forces would
change that eventually.
~~~
lolive
The need for a search engine seems, imho, to be the major argument versus
(full) decentralization. Another formulation for that: there is a (valid) need
for (some kind of) centralization. (and from there, you all go back to full
centralization, first because of search, then because of convenience, at last
because of laziness).
~~~
vezycash
P2P File sharing services like LimeWire, kazaa, torrent... had acceptable
search experience before being sued to oblivion.
Even if lawsuits didn't kill p2p networks, Virus / safety concerns would have.
Imo, trust is a bigger issue than discovery, hence need for curation -
centralization.
The reputation system of thepiratebay makes it my primary torrent site.
Laziness, convenience is more of a trust than a search issue.
Many uploads are viruses/adware/ransomware masquerading as movies, books,
games...
This necessitates multiple downloads - it's frustrating. I remember
downloading several gigs of rar and encrypted .avi movies files, only to be
greeted with a message asking me to fill a survey to get password.
Yify - a reputable source eliminated this concern for movies.
If decentralization works out, I believe specialized search engines will
emerge.
But note, trust is the bigger issue than search or content discovery for
decentralization. If not, iTunes store, app stores and other walled gardens
would have long failed.
------
d--b
The web has some parts that are decentralized, and I think it’s worth noting
the bad aspects of what exists today.
Perhaps the most decentralized part of the internet today is BitTorrent. It’s
a very efficient way of sharing files and has a lot of success. One can see
how BitTorrent could become the backbone of a decentralized web. However:
1 BitTorrent “naturally” throttles popular files over anything else. Niche
items which are hosted by fewer people will be slower to download =>
BitTorrent makes a cultural echo chamber
2 BitTorrent needs some kind of centralized search engine: it’s not possible
for everyone on the network to host a copy of the entire index of files on the
network. The only way is to have a search engine, much like Pirate Bay. In
fact one could say that google was this in the first place.
3 decentralized social media would be much more polluted with fake accounts
since no “authority” would be able to fix it.
People have been excited by decentralized web for at least 5 years. The
technology has existed for at least 10 years. If it was to happen, I think it
would have happened already...
------
bushin
Let's be realistic here, AMP is the next big step for the web :(
~~~
superkuh
You're not wrong. But it's a step backwards and not forwards.
AMP is not any faster to load than the actual site not on google's CDN. The
only reason it appears faster in most situations is because google is abusing
it's monopoly search position to pre-load and prioritize AMP results.
AMP gives google more control and that's why they push it so hard. This plus
their quest for hiding and/or getting rid of URLs so they can use AOL-style
keywords within their AMP walled garden is multiple steps back. All the way to
the late 90s.
------
mrtnmcc
Just use WebRTC? Built in to most browsers (Chrome 28+, Firefox 22+, Edge
12+). Main hurdle is the UDP hole punching of NAT for users behind it needing
a third party to help initiate the peer to peer connection.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebRTC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebRTC)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UDP_hole_punching](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UDP_hole_punching)
------
godelmachine
Isn’t the founding concept of the Internet & by extension, WWW -
decentralization?
------
imranq
Isn’t this the premise of HBOs Silicon Valley?
------
PaveSteel
Where can I buy coins for that?
------
gui67gk
The next big step?
The fundamental technologies were designed with decentralization in mind
Mastodon is just peered IRC all over again
The ISPs have poopooed running shared services from home connections.
DNS and the core protocols can run in decentralized ways no problem
It’s the social order that doesn’t enable it
------
moltar
I thought pied piper solved it already
------
cryptozeus
May be a bit philosophical but I feel real decentralization can only be
achieved if it’s created by not human. Like air , no one controls it and its
free to breathe. Blockchain started this way to be totally decentralized but
as we know if someone gets control of the 51% of the mines then its game over.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
France Says Fight Against Messaging Encryption Needs Worldwide Initiative - kushti
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-internet-encryption-idUSKCN10M1KB
======
Davidbrcz
I'm French and I can honestly say that we have the dumbest government the
world has ever seen.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
VW Presentation in 2006 Showed How to Foil Emissions Tests - abhi3
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/27/business/international/vw-presentation-in-06-showed-how-to-foil-emissions-tests.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1
======
mjfern
Yes, the defeat device VW employed for emissions is an environmental tragedy,
but this is just a symptom of a much more central issue. That is, VW was
actively promoting technical and business leaders that lacked any sort of
moral compass. How can we have faith in global corporations and their (grossly
overpaid) leaders if these are the choices they're making and the examples
they're setting?
~~~
colechristensen
The 'trust but verify' model of your morality was broken. If you give the
opportunity to cheat, there will be cheaters. The emissions tests were bad and
made it easy to cheat.
Providing an environment which makes cheating easy and profitable is just as
morally corrupt as the cheating itself, and entirely more predictable and
preventable.
Solve solvable problems like bad testing and not unsolvable problems like
unscrupulous businessmen.
~~~
acranox
"Providing an environment which makes cheating easy and profitable is just as
morally corrupt as the cheating itself"
No, it isn't. This is called victim blaming. It is like saying not locking
your door is as morally corrupt as the thieves that walked into your unlocked
house.
We create standards for emissions. And companies should comply with the tests
even without the need for tests. We expect people should follow the laws, and
we should use the minimal amount of enforcement to get compliance. But it's
silly to blame the epa for poor tests. The vault is with VW for selling cars
that didn't comply with emissions standards.
~~~
darawk
The fault lies with _both_ of them. It is VW's responsibility to be moral and
comply with laws. It is the EPA's responsibility to catch those who attempt to
cheat. They both failed, in easily preventable ways. They are both at fault.
VW's management should be jailed, and the EPA should probably be reprimanded
or have someone fired for letting this go uncaught for so long.
~~~
tmptmp
Then we can as well say that the whole general public of USA has failed.
Because it is their responsibility (indirectly and ultimately) to see that the
legal and enforcement machinery works as expected. Let's see how do they (the
general public) behave now. Do they push heavily for severe punishment for
these criminals (both individual leaders and companies) or not?
Or do they keep mum even if the leaders (like the recently resigned VW ceo)
who not only got scot-free but also were rewarded millions if not billions of
dollars ultimately for such crimes by the company and its shareholders?
~~~
pessimizer
Or we might as well say all humanity has failed, or God has failed, if we're
going to ignore people's job descriptions, and their direct connection and
responsibility for the design of all systems involved.
~~~
tmptmp
I am not saying we should ignore people's job descriptions; in fact, I was
responding to one comment in the thread that was trying to put equal blame on
the EPA too.
But I want to bring out an important aspect here: if the USA (mainly its
people) fail to punish VW and its criminal leaders (along with the
shareholders who backed, rewarded those leaders) in an exemplary manner, then
some people will keep on blaming its capitalist economy based democracy for
being too soft on "big and rich" while punishing severely only "poor people"
even for smaller scale crimes.
The VW leaders should be put behind bars for something like 30 years and its
big shareholders (the ones holding more 0.1% of its total shares, say) be
punished monetarily by legally declaring their shares to be void. If US cannot
do this because Germany wouldn't allow it to do so, then USA should ban the VW
and all the companies associated with VW or its parent companies to do any
business in US.
What has currently happened with VW in the name of punishment is pure farce.
Its shares are still trading at non-zero positive value. And its leaders
enjoying multi-million dollars in rewards for the criminal behavior. The
justice has become farce in this case.
>>Or we might as well say all humanity has failed, or God has failed,
Yes, you can say so. But at least now we don't have a world-wide single state.
As a god or gods (whether he, she, it or they (multiple gods)) are concerned,
we don't know for sure whether the things called gods exist or not, so saying
god failed doesn't get us much far.
~~~
oarsinsync
There are those that are directly responsible (manufacturers, regulators), and
those that are indirectly responsible (the people in a state, shareholders in
a company, humanity, God, etc).
The people don't get to vote on specific issues, they get to vote on
representation. The people representing them are directly responsible. Hold
the people directly responsible to account, remove and replace if ineffective.
~~~
tmptmp
>>Hold the people directly responsible to account, remove and replace if
ineffective.
And who is going to do "that"? and what if those who are responsible to do
"that" don't do that? Then who is going to hold 'those' people who didn't do
anything to hold those people responsible for the VW? I mean somewhere down
the line, the general public must become active and show that it is not
sleeping altogether, if that doesn't happen, well, society as a whole has to
pay its price, and this price generally is very big, it can be so big that
society may be crushed under its weight.
My point is let's see how USA deals with this VW crime and the other important
criminal called Saudi Arabia for its role in 9/11\. The government and
enforcement agencies have already shown that they won't punish them much. So
it remains to see if the general public holds them accountable or not.
~~~
PhantomGremlin
_So it remains to see if the general public holds them accountable or not._
That's not likely to happen. The American public is generally quite apathetic.
For example, one of the current leading candidates to become the next
president of the USA had the following good fortune a while ago[1]:
\- did not have any previous experience trading commodities futures
\- deposited less than $1000 in cash into a futures trading account
\- Made hundreds of trades. Each futures trade incurs a significant bid/ask
spread, much greater than stock trades. And yet: _Two-thirds of her trades
showed a profit by the end of the day she made them and 80 percent were
ultimately profitable. Many of her trades took place at or near the best
prices of the day._
\- cashed out for $100,000 nine months later
To me, that $100,000 was nothing more and nothing less than a bribe. And,
although corruption is endemic in many parts of the world, one would hope that
in the USA such obvious grift would unequivocally disqualify someone for the
office of the President.
But if you took a poll, probably 99% of the electorate wouldn't even be aware
of this little incident. And the majority probably wouldn't care.
So don't look for "the general public" to hold anyone accountable about
anything. That's no longer how this country works. Not in 2016, anyway.
[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Rodham_cattle_futures_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Rodham_cattle_futures_controversy)
~~~
tmptmp
Good post indeed.
>>So don't look for "the general public" to hold anyone accountable about
anything. That's no longer how this country works. Not in 2016, anyway.
It's sad. With all the "information age tools" at hand, we see that people are
just choosing to remain ignorant. Reminds me Huxley's brave new world [1]
[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_New_World](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_New_World)
------
Aelinsaar
This level of criminality requires some kind of response, or really, lets just
drop the idea of crime as a concept and just monetize "justice". At least we
could dispense with some of the more galling hypocrisy, without changing how
the system works one iota.
~~~
thrownaway2424
Indeed, one wonders why the government (of the US or of Germany) continues to
tolerate the existence of this company at all. They've clearly conspired at
the executive level to mislead regulators. The corporation is a figment of the
government's imagination. It seems like the government should just stop
imagining it.
~~~
slededit
If the US were to push too hard they are at risk of souring relations with
Germany. For Germany the problem is damaging their own economy. In a democracy
a recession is an existential threat to the current government. That's much
scarier than a company flouting emissions standards.
~~~
tajen
It's not about shutting down VW, it's about jailing one person, the CEO. Or,
if he proves he wasn't aware or wasn't in control of his company, the lower
level of management, recursively. It will lightly hamper VW, but provide a
personal responsibility baseline for all management in car companies. It's
mass, oragnized crime we're talking about here.
~~~
_pmf_
> Or, if he proves he wasn't aware or wasn't in control of his company
That's not how the burden of proof works. That said, would this case actually
be prosecuted seriously, they would find information relating to how he was
informed.
------
tonylemesmer
Its common for competing companies to test each other's products as a
benchmark for their own. So all of these companies will have known that other
companies were doing the same and no-one said anything. That's thousands of
people.
------
ZoeZoeBee
Those Germans, always meticulous in their record keeping. It amazes me what
people will upload to a server and communicate through email. If whistle-
blowing hadn't been as under attack as it is I'm certain a lot of other
companies would be found to have been knowingly violating laws in order to
squeeze additional profit.
------
edejong
When a company willingly and knowingly foils rules put in place to increase
lifespan and reduce the death toll of cancer due to air pollution, shouldn't
these top-executives be charged with mass murder? Why can't we compare this
with a war crime? Millions of healthy life-span-years could have been lost due
to these acts.
~~~
pkulak
Because most people make decisions with a bit of perspective. Trucks (I'm not
talking semis, really anything over 6000 pounds, I think) are still allowed
far more emissions than any VW diesel car, and anything built before the new
law went into place is still on the road doing it's carcinogenic thing.
Any car company is in the business of polluting the hell out of the
environment (save Tesla, unless you watch a lot of Fox News). VW polluted a
little bit more than they were allowed to for a few years and the executives
are "mass murderers"? That's a hell of a president.
~~~
Zigurd
The excess deaths can be calculated. So can the ill gotten gains. Why
shouldn't the management be made accountable for both?
~~~
nickff
It is very uncommon for people to be held criminally responsible for so-called
'statistical murder', which is actually quite common. The case has been made
that airbags have killed more people than they have saved; should the people
who wrote the airbag laws and regulations be put to death?
~~~
usaphp
While I disagree with the original comment - your airbags analogy does not
work here, airbags were not created to work around a law, there is a law on
emissions and vw deliberately built a workaround to "comply" with a law on
tests, but they knew that outside the test facility their cars would violate
that law.
------
w_t_payne
I feel that this is only the first of a series of scandals in which
respectable companies and institutions will be found to have done nefarious
and harmful things: attempting to secrete their misdeeds in the seemingly
impenetrable and arcane minutiae of everyday software.
------
yeureka
I bought a new car in March and I really wanted to get a VW.
But the behaviour of VW's executives in this matter completely put me off the
brand.
I feel sorry for the factory workers and the people who have nothing to do
with this, but it will take a while until I will trust VW again.
------
abhi3
It increasingly seems that the cheating at Volkswagon was systematic and not
the fault of rouge engineers as they claim.
~~~
dang
Please don't rewrite titles when the original is neither misleading nor
linkbait. This is a rule here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).
The submitted title was "Volkswagen seriously made a PowerPoint deck on how to
cheat emissions tests". That's _more_ linkbait, which is driving the wrong way
down a one-way street.
~~~
stevesearer
It might be a good idea to link to or explain submission title rules on the
submit page as most new submitters probably won't go looking for the
Guidelines page. Many new users could be coming from forums or sites where
editorializing headlines it the norm and/or expected.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
New Amazon EC2 Feature: Boot from Elastic Block Store - jeffbarr
http://aws.typepad.com/aws/2009/12/new-amazon-ec2-feature-boot-from-elastic-block-store.html
======
nethergoat
This is tremendously useful and lowers the barrier to entry for new adopters.
Unfortunately, it's also a temptation to make poor design decisions.
One of the key benefits of EC2 and other cloud offerings is that, in a
properly automated environment, it is faster and easier to replace a faulty
node than to troubleshoot it. The same is true for upgrades - simply boot a
new instance from an updated AMI or Chef/Puppet/Cfengine/RightScale config and
point traffic at the new server. Minimal wheelspin, minimal downtime.
Those who use this new feature to take a, for lack of a better term, "server-
hugger" approach to cloud computing will miss out on this. Though it may
reduce their cloud onboarding time, it's inefficient in the long term and will
be an operational burden as the environment grows.
~~~
shykes
As cool as they are, I have 2 problems with Chef/Puppet/CFengine/Rightscripts.
1\. Long boot times. This gets worse as your recipes get beefier.
2\. Same script, different results. Running your recipe next year might not
yield the same result (e.g. if you don't specify a precise version of a
package to install).
~~~
mark_l_watson
I agree. I do use Chef and Capistrano to automate creating AMIs, but then I
like to just save the AMIs and boot from them. Also, creating a new AMI from
an old one is quick and easy.
------
spudlyo
This simplifies the old way I had to do this:
* Boot a 4MB busybox ami (very fast to load)
* init script loops trying to mount /dev/sdj
* Manually attach EBS root volume on /dev/sdj
* init script mounts /dev/sdj in /new-root
* pivot_root /new-root /old-root
* chroot /new-root /sbin/init
------
wouterinho
EBS costs $0.10 per GB and $0.10 per million I/O requests. Any ideas how much
it would cost per month to replace a "normal" AMI (which is free) with an EBS-
backed one like this?
~~~
fizx
You store a normal AMI on S3, which is $.15/GB. If you care about costs, you
should be doing all of your high IO tasks on the /mnt swap drive, so your IO
costs should be pretty low. It's probably a wash.
------
garyrichardson
This is great for people who have 1-2 machines running a website, but doesn't
really make any difference to people who are actually elastically scaling.
In fact, maintain state between stops/starts increases headaches for me. It's
a lot more tempting to incorporate manual voodoo instead of baking it into the
build process.
------
rubyrescue
after i just spent all day yesterday building and rebulding amis... this is
great.
i can see a lot of advantages in terms of boot time and having a much bigger
root but for us since boot time is negligable compared to puppet config time,
the biggest saving will come the next time we're doing the the whole
configure/test/ec2-bundle-vol/ec2-upload-bundle/ec2-register cycle, which is
so tedious.
------
mark_l_watson
I wish they had released this new feature a year ago - it would have saved me
a lot of effort setting up both customers and my EC2 backed applications.
I'll use this in the future, and I will convert my own permanent EC2 instance.
There is a bit of trickery that I had to learn to auto mount EBS volumes when
my AMIs start up - some Ruby scripting code I probably won't have to use
anymore.
~~~
robinpc
You mention conversion ... Anybody have any suggestions about how to convert
an S3-backed AMI to an EBS backed one (linux)? I'm wondering if there's some
grub trickery that needs to happen over and above the file copies to make
booting work?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Human-Level Intelligence or Animal-Like Abilities? (2018) - Anon84
https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2018/10/231373-human-level-intelligence-or-animal-like-abilities/fulltext
======
mensetmanusman
Surprised I haven’t come across this analogy before. Thinking about it now,
‘Animal-like abilities’ is a much better analogy in the context of the general
public. It also helps ground scientists in thinking deeply about the
difference between human and animal intelligence (some animals can use tools).
~~~
throwaway_pdp09
This is vague but it was a while ago... some researcher was trying to make AI
more accessible to the public by downplaying high expectations. She
represented it as a cartoon dog, amiable, willing, but evidently none too
bright. I believe it was no more than an experiment, though a clever one. Ring
anyone's bell?
------
andra1
Francois Chollet tries to address some of these problems by tackling how
intelligence is measured. Most AI systems are measured by task performance,
but he argues that intelligence is about "skill-acquisition efficiency".
[https://arxiv.org/abs/1911.01547](https://arxiv.org/abs/1911.01547)
------
op03
Ant level intelligence I'd be happy with. "Colony you may now clean up my
kitchen table and do the dishes. Thanks"
~~~
TeMPOraL
And then you keep thinking about how fast cereal is disappearing in your
house, wondering whether you're just so sleepy in the morning you don't
remember eating more and more of it - until one night you spot a string of
AInts stealing your cereal, piece by piece. By the time you've realized your
mistake, the colony has grown 100x in size and already spread to the two
neighboring houses, being held back by the front line of an ongoing war with
an AInt colony of your friend one street down.
~~~
op03
:) that wld entertain me, having witnessed a couple ant-termite wars in the
garden.
------
YeGoblynQueenne
The title of the article does an awful job of summarising it. The main subject
of the article is not about the level of intelligence of current or future AI,
as the title suggsts. Instead, the article is a reflection on the progress in
the field in the last few years and a discussion of the degree to which
progress in deep learning has benefited, or harmed, AI research in general.
This is best summarised by the "Key Insights" box on top of the article:
_> the recent successes of deep learning have revealed something very
interesting about the structure of our world, yet this seems to be the least
pursued and talked about topic today_
_> In AI, the key question today is not whether we should use model-based or
function-based approaches but how to integrate and fuse them so we can realise
their objective benefits_
_> We need a new generation of AI researchers who are well versed in an
appreciate classical AI, machine learning, and computer science more broadly
while also being informed about AI history._
The first "key point" refers to classes of functions that can be seen as
"cognitive functions". For example, mapping a set of inputs to outputs can
reasonably be considered as approximating some aspect of cognition when the
inputs are regions of images and the subjects their labels, so that the
function performs object recognition, a task that AI research has long
considered an aspect of cognition. Understanding how such functions work has
the potential to contribute to our understanding of human cognition, that has
long been a major goal of AI research. Yet, in recent years, interest has
shifted from understanding such results to applying them at the level of phone
apps, etc.
The final key point is a call to arms. We can't make progress as a field by
throwing out everything we've done before, everytime we achieve some success
in a narrow range of tasks. The author witnessed this happenning in the 1980's
with the rise and fall of expert systems -and the AI winter that followed. In
modern times, the success of deep learning has all but eclipsed the deep
knowledge that researchers in the field once possessed about symbolic logic
and important avenues of research are impossible to follow because the younger
generation of researchers simply don't have the necessary background - and are
"bullied by the success" of neural networks into directing their careers
towards neural network research, whatever their true interests.
On a personal level, not summarising the article anymore, the latter is the
most disturbing development. Neural networks can perform "perceptual" tasks,
but are wholly incapable of reasoning. Symbolic AI had reasoning down pat- and
not in approximate fashion (as a recent trend in deep learning research
attempts to perform it). Yet, we seem to have regressed and lost one ability
to perform one set of cognitive tasks in the process of figuring out how to
perform another.
In the past, AI researchers were well-rounded polymaths, versed in CS but also
(continuous) mathematics, physics, psychology, linguistics... Nowadays,
researchers seem to be optimising for a narrow band of knowledge and ignoring
everything else. This cannot end well.
------
api
Careful... you're on the verge here of realizing that intelligence is not a
single-dimensional thing and that 'g' is bullshit.
~~~
natch
Trollish comment above but I do wonder about this. I always hear people who
think ‘g’ is bullshit giving some form of this argument:
“AI can’t even x, how would you expect it to ever possibly do y?”
It’s like saying:
“How could a baby, which can not even tie its own shoes, spell a simple word,
or fill a cup with water, ever possibly grow up to write a book, manage a
corporation, or formulate a strategy for fighting a war? Impossible!”
It’s almost as if they think babies can’t learn. The AI is not a baby though,
they say. Yeah, it’s not. But it’s a constantly learning body of work that is
not regressing and not slowing down. Why would it not get to ‘general’
eventually?
~~~
GuiA
We have billions of examples of babies growing up to learn to spell and tie
their shoes, therefore it's very reasonable to assume that that's a skill most
babies will get to.
There are 0 examples of a man made construct reaching "general" intelligence
(whatever fuzzy meaning you may attach to it); there is no reason to believe
that because we can reach some arbitrary human milestone today ("be a world
class Go player"), any other human milestone ("start and run a company, and be
a mentor and inspiration to others") is plausible.
This is a very different case from e.g. "we built a prototype plane that can
lift 15 ft off the ground for 10 seconds, we should be able to build one that
can lift 10,000 feet for 10 hours", because in the former case we were
beginning to have an understanding of aerodynamics that made that path
plausible. We do not have such an understanding backing current ML work.
That's well illustrated by the fact that only 6 years elapsed between the
first manned flight and crossing the Atlantic by plane - practice caught up to
theory really fast, as it tends to do in those cases. We are about 6 years in
the current ML revolution - what is its equivalent to crossing the Atlantic?
The logic you're advocating for here is more along the lines of "I taught my
dog how to sit - shouldn't be too hard to get him to sit in front of a
computer and start writing Python code now that I've got the first half
figured out".
(or - I taught my dog how to fetch - shouldn't be too hard to train him to be
a full time food delivery employee, etc).
~~~
luckylion
> There are 0 examples of a man made construct reaching "general" intelligence
> (whatever fuzzy meaning you may attach to it); there is no reason to believe
> that because we can reach some arbitrary human milestone today ("be a world
> class Go player"), any other human milestone ("start and run a company, and
> be a mentor and inspiration to others") is plausible.
_No_ reason? If you were an outside observer looking at the very first
individuals of what you decided to call human, maybe. But after so many steps
were made? You can argue that, before there was a plane, there was zero reason
to thing that humans can ever create one. And you could've claimed that for
pretty much anything else. And you'd generally see that they did get created.
Why would artificial intelligence be _fundamentally_ different? I'm not saying
"we can do it in the next five years", but to say that there's no reason to
believe that it will _ever_ happen?
> We do not have such an understanding backing current ML work.
And we did not have the knowledge of aerodynamics before we started looking
into throwing things, then keeping things in the air for longer than they
would if they were thrown, and eventually flying them (yes, a bit simplified).
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The Fallacy of Chesterton’s Fence (2014) - Tomte
http://abovethelaw.com/2014/01/the-fallacy-of-chestertons-fence/
======
Lazare
Chesterton's Fence is always worth keeping in mind when maintaining code too.
Sometimes you'll come across some crazy nested conditional that seems to be
checking for cases that can't even happen. It's tempting to say "this is nuts,
I'll just rewrite this whole overgrown method into two lines!". Sometimes
that's even a good idea. But some programmer before you thought that crazy
code was worth writing, and you _might_ want to check `git blame` and see if
you can figure out why.
Example: A while back I ran across a pretty rare race condition in some pretty
gnarly distributed code. But there was an obvious fix, so I opened up the file
where the fix should be made and found...
...someone else already had made that fix. Except it was in a conditional
block which boiled down to "if (false) {...}". The fix would never run! No
matter, it would be the work of 10 seconds for me to fix the conditional and
push this code to production.
But first, I checked the logs. One of my colleagues had written this code (so
that the fix would run) about two years ago. And then 20 minutes later he had
committed a hotfix to _stop_ the code running. Reading between the lines, the
"obvious fix" clearly broke something less obvious and even more important
somewhere else in the gnarly distributed code. That "broken" conditional
wasn't a bug, it was a fence, and it had been erected for a good reason. And
the race condition I found was _really_ rare, and the whole gnarly distributed
code is slated to be refactored next year, so...I left it.
(Now, the lack of comments explaining all that in the code base, and the fact
the broken code was still in the code base just locked behind an always false
conditional...those were issues. Then again, stuff like that happens in real
code bases, even if they shouldn't. If you expect live to be completely tidy
and well behaved, reality is going to be really confusing sometimes.)
------
jcl
"Put very simply: don’t destroy what you don’t understand."
The Chesterton's Fence story has always bothered me. The moral puts all blame
on the person challenging the fence for not coming to the same conclusions as
the builder.
For the person building the fence, it's easy to assume that the purpose of
your work is self-evident, but the truth is that it is hard for anyone else to
put together the facts as you saw them, and it's harder still to reason the
same way you did. So just thinking really hard about the reasons for the
fence's existence will not necessarily lead to a correct -- or even desirable
-- result. The story's moral may as well have been: "What I did is more
important than what you want to do." Or: "Fear change."
I'd rather see a dual lesson drawn from the same story: "If what you are doing
is important, it's just as important to make it clear _why_ it is important."
This particularly applies in the context of software development, when a
little effort to make the rationale of some code more clear can pay off over
the dozens to hundreds of times the code must be read and rejustified.
~~~
MikeTaylor
It doesn't put any blame on anyone. It encourages us to stop and think in such
a way that there is no blame for anyone. (Typically, the people who built the
fence are not here any more, so we can't make any more requirements on them,
only on ourselves.)
------
steve444
Ahh, yes:
* the machine that depends on the data was brought into service before you were born
* the programmer who wrote the original software in VB died of cancer--10 years ago
* the first machine operator who spec'd out the software retired--after a long and full career
But you, having been here 6 whole months, decide that it's time to move this
folder because it's stupid that it's not with all of the other similar files?
Thus: Steve's Rule of Enterprise Systems: if you yourself don't fully
understand why it is the way it is, don't touch it.
~~~
gohrt
Steve's Corollary of Enterprise Systems: Don't touch anything ever.
------
cr0sh
This article presents a thoughtful topic worth considering...
...too bad that it seems wrapped around (imho) making a case for bigotry
against same-sex marriage (and seemingly presenting it from a Mormon
perspective).
Do I agree with the idea that one should "look before you leap"? Certainly;
maybe the old process had a purpose and should be kept.
But not when it is to the detriment or isolation of a particular class or
group of people (especially on seemingly pure quasi-religious grounds).
~~~
careersuicide
I've always had a problem with Chesterton's Fence precisely because it is a
sort of status quo bias that can be (and is) used as an argument in favor of
backwards social norms and traditions. It's one thing to say "Don't touch that
piece of code you don't understand." It's totally different to apply that line
of reasoning to norms and laws that actively hurt people. Sometimes there's a
reason for the way things are and the reason is just plain stupid and cruel.
~~~
smithkl42
The fact that you think the reasoning behind traditional marriage is "just
plain stupid and cruel" is probably the best example of Chesterton's Gate I've
yet seen. It indicates that (a) not only do you not understand the reasoning,
but (b) our society has changed so much, and so subtly, that it's almost
impossible to get anyone to understand that reasoning. Needless to say, I
don't think this bodes well for us over the long-term.
(Ducking all the incoming downvotes - I'm keenly aware of how unpopular this
position is, and how bigoted it seems to most folks these days - which sort of
proves my point.)
~~~
Jordrok
You're right, society has changed quite a bit.
The other possibility that you seem to implicitly dismiss is that the original
reasoning is understood perfectly well, has been debated to death, and has
been found to no longer align with what the majority of people want out of
society.
Chesterton's Gate argues against removing the fence out of haste and
ignorance, but not against removing it after intense debate and careful
consideration.
~~~
smithkl42
And yet somehow, within a decade, we've redefined (almost out of existence)
the single most fundamental human institution, an institution which has lasted
for thousands of years and which virtually every great thinker prior to the
last 15 years has understood as the prerequisite and foundation for any
civilized society. This radical redefinition of marriage - and in its wake, of
what it means to be human - couldn't have happened without incessant
propagandizing and cheerleading from every element inside our popular and our
news media. And yet how often did you hear this media allow through a coherent
statement of the views opposing SSM, as expressed by, say, Ryan Anderson? How
often was debate shut down _a priori_ , as mere bigotry?
Careful reconsideration? I don't see how that played any part of this recent
shift.
------
tantalor
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Xgy2VV9...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Xgy2VV99lwYJ:ldsmag.com/the-
parable-of-chestertons-fence/&num=1&hl=en&gl=us&strip=0&vwsrc=0)
~~~
LeifCarrotson
This is not the same article linked in the post. You linked to
[http://ldsmag.com/the-parable-of-chestertons-fence/](http://ldsmag.com/the-
parable-of-chestertons-fence/)
But the primary link is to
[http://abovethelaw.com/2014/01/the-fallacy-of-chestertons-
fe...](http://abovethelaw.com/2014/01/the-fallacy-of-chestertons-fence/)
Neither currently seem to require a cache link.
~~~
tantalor
At the time, the primary link was ldsmag.com, and did not work.
------
ColinCochrane
I'm not sure why the article refers to Chesterton's fence as a fallacy when it
basically agrees with the principle that you shouldn't blindly push reforms
without understanding the reasoning behind the existing state of things.
That's not to say I disagree with the content of the article. I think it
presents a good approach to promoting improvements to processes, the key
takeaways being:
1) Observe the process and try to understand all aspects of it (not just that
which affects you).
2) If you still feel that it can be improved, come up with a plan to improve
and implement the process in a limited scope over which you have control.
3) If successful, break down why it was successful, and evaluate whether it is
suitable to be expanded to the general case.
4) Find the owner of the existing process to discuss it with them, and present
your proposed improvements.
I think there's an argument to be made that you should talk to the owner of
the process before you start coming up with improvements, which could save
some time on understanding it. But I suppose that depends on the situation.
~~~
kej
It's referring to the "I don't see the use of it, let's remove it" part as a
fallacy, and agreeing with the "no, come back after you see the use of it"
part.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
If It Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It: Ancient Computers in Use Today (2012) - pmarin
http://www.pcworld.com/article/249951/if_it_aint_broke_dont_fix_it_ancient_computers_in_use_today.html
======
abruzzi
Im a dabbling electronic musician, so I understand a lot about keeping very
old technology functional in the modern world. A lot of these old synths (all
mine are digital synths) are irreplaceable with newer technology. My stuff
goes as far back as the mid 80s, but there are people that restore and
maintain even older hardware. Recently a synth tech restored a couple of
Crumar GDSs. These were CPM based S100 bus computers with audio synthesis
cards and a program that let you design sounds using a terminal interface,
they play them with a music keyboard. These old synths are very difficult to
keep going compared to something like a MiniMoog from the same era, because
they are dependant on software, 8" floppies, and operating systems and
terminals far out of common usage. Nonetheless this is a pretty amazing
machine, and a very cool restoration:
[http://www.vintagesynth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=77037](http://www.vintagesynth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=77037)
------
betterunix
Even more amazing is that there are still a few 19th century steam engines
being used:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corliss_steam_engine#List_of_o...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corliss_steam_engine#List_of_operational_engines)
~~~
seekingtruth
Mechanicville, NY 3 Phase Hydroelectric Plant built in 1897 and still running
the original generators:
[http://edisontechcenter.org/Mechanicville.html](http://edisontechcenter.org/Mechanicville.html)
------
adamio
I'd like to know about people still using ancient computers that suck. Like a
guy still struggling with an eMachines iMac clone running Windows ME,
or a company using a drowning mainframe with an army of legacy coders
constantly plugging the leaking holes, or nightmare layers of integration
~~~
wldcordeiro
I don't have personal knowledge of the mainframes in use at my employer but we
might qualify based on talking to the coders that work on the mainframes.
------
diminoten
> Replacing these old systems with modern machines, she explains, would cost
> millions of dollars and could potentially disrupt national security.
My god...
The private companies who aren't willing to save money by switching are one
thing (apparently the market is okay with slow store management), but the US
and British governments?
That's _very_ scary.
~~~
dsuth
This one surprised me least of all. The issue with upgrading these systems to
newer technology, especially on general purpose operating systems, is that
they're far _less_ reliable, precisely due to the fact that they are more
powerful and flexible, and hence, more complex.
The first rule of critical systems is to reduce complexity, and their current
systems probably found the sweet spot between useability and simplicity
decades ago.
The guy using the IBM accounting machines though... Dear god man! It sounds
like the museum would've handed him a new system on a platter, in exchange for
his old system. Take the upgrade!
~~~
gaius
They are built like crap too, you can put a PC in a rack mount case but that
don't make it a server. The kit from DEC, Sun, SGI, HP et al from the 80s and
90s was rock solid and would keep going for 20, 30, 40 years, easily. Modern
kit you would be lucky to reach 3 years.
------
Animats
The IBM 402 has been at the Computer Museum for several years.
~~~
christiangenco
So has the iPhone.
------
VLM
Its a three year old article, I wonder if the unit record equipment user has
changed anything, other followups, etc.
Much like the list of steam engine users, giving antique users free publicity
guarantees that they'll do anything to make sure they do not upgrade. Even if
they have to remove the boiler and rotate the steam engine by electric motor,
or have to run the books on the URE and in quickbooks, they'll "have to" do it
for publicity.
~~~
fennecfoxen
I don't think most of these people get their paying customers from this sort
of publicity.
------
throwawayaway
> Today, he simply connects a serial port between the CoCo and a PC, with the
> PC acting as a virtual disk drive emulator.
From the third page, I find this fascinating - does anybody know more about
it? Is it an FTP or something else?
EDIT: here's his website,
[http://users.axess.com/twilight/sock/](http://users.axess.com/twilight/sock/)
~~~
jarcane
It's DriveWire4:
[https://sites.google.com/site/drivewire4/](https://sites.google.com/site/drivewire4/)
~~~
throwawayaway
very interesting that it supports osx as there are so few modern apple
computers that have any way of using an rs232 port, I think the last macbook
pro with an express card slot was released in 2011. perhaps a usb to rs232 is
used.
~~~
fredoralive
It must require an Xserve, they had serial ports. :-)
(But more seriously, USB->Serial converters work with Mac OS X, I used one to
connect a Palm m105 to a G3 iBook running Mac OS X 10.1 way back when. More
currently, it seems the OS itself ships with drivers for FTDI's converter
chips nowadays, although I haven't used that capability).
------
fit2rule
My kids are using our 8-bit battlestation to learn computing. Its excellent -
far better than giving them an rPi, which they just get frustrated with. Turn
on the old Oric Atmos machine, boot up a disk full of software, have a great
afternoon. I do get a bit tired of the ol' "10 PING : GOTO 10" trick, though
.. ;)
------
ourmandave
If anything does break you can use your modern 3D printer to make hard-to-find
replacement parts.
Everything new is old again. o_O
~~~
Sanddancer
There are some things where 3D printing is not an option, especially oldschool
wire wrap backplanes. If you can get a 3d printer to create a rig that can
print the functional equivalent of
[http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Computerp...](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Computerplatine_Wire-
wrap_backplane_detail_Z80_Doppel-Europa-Format_1977.jpg) , I will eat my hat.
~~~
fennecfoxen
Functionally equivalent? ... why couldn't you just design a PCB that's pinout-
compatible?
~~~
Sanddancer
Parent had mentioned 3d printer. Of course using a modern pcb layout program
would be the right tool for the job, as well as a good psychologist to deal
with the madness that follows from tracing all those wires.
Then again, I guess one could potentially rig up a program that took gerber
files for a many layered pcb design and have it output a 3d model for forming
a chunk of multilayer plastic circuit board. You'd need a printer that has
multiple heads for depositing conductive materials though. I'd question its
reliability in such an environment as an old mini though.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Why Doesn't Anyone Give a Crap About Freedom Zero? (2008) - prajjwal
http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2008/01/why-doesnt-anyone-give-a-crap-about-freedom-zero.html
======
icebraining
I hope the irony of asking about the _Free Software_ "Freedom Zero" and then
only talking about Open Source was not lost on Atwood.
People don't care about Freedom Zero for the same reason why Open Source took
over Free Software. Because the vast majority developers and businesses
embrace it only for their only self-interest, by reducing development time and
costs. They don't give a single fuck about user freedom, as it's well shown by
the number of companies who release open source backend tools but keep their
customer-facing applications proprietary.
In fact, this is no secret: the whole _point_ of creating Open Source as an
alternative to Free Software was to keep the code sharing parts while shedding
the ethical positions of the GNU philosophy, such as Freedom Zero, which were
unpleasant to the money makers in the industry.
~~~
widdershins
By the same token 99.9% of consumers don't care about the legalities and
'freedoms' that Atwood talks about - only what they can do with their
computers and the ease with which they can do it.
~~~
icebraining
"what they can do with their computers" is the whole point of freedom zero.
~~~
msbarnett
No, "what a hypothetical user _could_ do, _potentially_ , given unlimited
skill in the computing domain" is the whole point of freedom zero.
All everyday users give a shit about is what they actually _can do easily_ ,
given their shallow understanding of computing devices, to get the shit they
need doing done.
This rarely taxes or even approaches the limit of commercial, closed software,
so they perforce give zero shits about hypothetical freedoms that for all
intents and purposes do not exist for them given their time and skill
constraints.
~~~
betterunix
You think the average computer user rarely approaches the limits imposed by
proprietary software? You must have never met someone who:
* Wanted to rip a video DVD
* Wanted to copy songs from one iPod to another
* Wanted to use Remote Desktop while another user is logged in
* Tried to deal with HDCP problems between a cable receiver and television
These are _all_ software problems, _all_ imposed by artificial restrictions,
and _all_ violations of Freedom 0. You seem to think Freedom 0 is about
technical competence; yet weak technical skills are what proprietary software
vendors _take advantage of_ when they impose these sorts of restrictions.
~~~
TeMPOraL
> _These are all software problems, all imposed by artificial restrictions,
> and all violations of Freedom 0._
Those problems _can not_ be separated out and analyzed independently like
this.
> _Wanted to rip a video DVD_
> _Wanted to copy songs from one iPod to another_
Without those two limitations _you wouldn 't have_ either DVDs and iPods, as
the economics of these technologies wouldn't made sense for companies which
created them.
> _Wanted to use Remote Desktop while another user is logged in_
This sound like an accidental technical limitation.
> _Tried to deal with HDCP problems between a cable receiver and television_
This is, again, the limit that allows you to have those movies in the first
place.
I'm all for the open source and Freedom 0, but please don't forget that it's
not about Freedom 0 being violated or not. It's about it being violated or
_not having anything at all_.
~~~
Dylan16807
You seriously think that DVDs wouldn't exist if they couldn't have their
little ROT-13? Well I don't think this is going to be a very fruitful
conversation.
Oh but while you're here how about you explain the popularity of DRM-free mp3
downloads :)
~~~
mavhc
That's why after DVDs encryption was cracked they stopped making DVDs
~~~
Jach
I thought that was because better formats came out... With no improvement on
the 'encryption' end as far as I can tell, because I can find bluray rips for
any movie that's come out on bluray.
~~~
nknighthb
He was being sarcastic. CSS (the pathetic 40-bit "encryption" used on DVDs)
was cracked in 1999. Blu-ray wasn't commonplace until 8-10 years later.
Blu-ray's AACS actually is much better than CSS ever was, and as far as I know
it hasn't been attacked in either a brute-force or break-the-algorithm sense.
But like all other DRM, there are inherent flaws it can't work around. You
need only extract a player key and you can freely decrypt the data.
------
Roboprog
I don't quite understand Jeff's point in the article. Is Windows really that
much more open than OSX?
I got my (first) Next^H^H^H^H Mac about a year ago. I don't want to stop
running Linux yet, but the Mac works much better than any Windows machine I
have ever been forced to endure. While the Mac might not have open hardware,
it at least lets me load a wide variety of open software onto it: Libre
Office, Groovy, Go-lang, Ruby, etc. (Windows does also, but the BSD
personality on the Mac makes the experience more frictionless)
I do care about freedom, but the platform which often simply does not _work_
well enough to be playable is no freedom at all.
I should probably add that my first programming job was back in '85 working on
(dead language) under MS-DOS, so I have a long history of abuse at the hands
of Microsoft. I'll agree that the Apple II, and also the C64, were nice little
machines to tinker with, though.
~~~
venomsnake
You cannot control or change the OS according to Jeff. Which means that you
are as free as the OS allows you and not as free as the hardware allows you.
I do agree that OS that allows you to run self signed code and unsigned code
and have root access is almost on the top of the freedom ladder.
~~~
nknighthb
You have exactly as much technical control over Mac OS X as you do over
Windows. You can execute arbitrary code and modify any system file you wish,
even the kernel.
I'm not clear why people don't know this. Do non-Mac users really think OS X
has to be "jailbroken" like an iPhone?
~~~
venomsnake
But can you change the OS without bootcamp? Arbitrary bootloaders etc?
~~~
nknighthb
What? Yes. Of course. Again, I don't get this. Where is the idea that Macs are
locked down coming from? Who told you this is a problem?
Edit: By the way, in 1996, Apple released MkLinux.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MkLinux](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MkLinux)
This was even _before_ they stopped using non-standard components in their
computers.
How anyone could ever have thought Apple was blocking installation of
alternative operating systems is beyond me.
------
cwp
Because nobody can exercise it anyway. Freedom 0 is really just a corollary of
freedom 1, "The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it
does your computing as you wish." If you can't change a program, you can't run
it for any purpose, you can only run it for the purpose intended by the
original author.
Freedom 1 is pretty hard to exercise too. For any given bit of technology,
there are very few people outside of the original authors that are capable of
changing it in meaningful and useful ways, and even they will need to put in a
lot of effort do so.
It may be apocryphal, but the Apple II discussed in the article is said to be
the last computer designed entirely by one person. Modern computers are just
too complex for any one person to entirely understand. We can only answer
questions, fix bugs and add features in a narrow speciality. In order to use a
computer system we have to rely on other people to handle issues outside our
areas of competence. Those people might be part of communities that help each
other for free, or might work for companies that provide support to their
customers.
So freedom 0 is a bit like the freedom to go to the moon. Having it is better
than not, but most people don't benefit from it.
~~~
rmc
Not totally true. If I, as a programmer, can excercise Freedom 1 to write a
new programme, then I can give it to you, and you can excersice Freedom 0 to
run it on your device. If the Overlords™ don't want that type of programme to
run on your device, there's nothing they can do about it.
~~~
ctdonath
Xcode is free. Write/download source code, click Run. Where isn't Freedom 0?
------
mwfunk
Plenty of people care about Freedom Zero. Millions or tens of millions or even
hundreds of millions. That's great; that's their prerogative. Jeff seems to be
really saying "why doesn't _everyone_ care about Freedom Zero?", and that's a
very different and much more interesting question.
Unfortunately for him (but not for humanity as a whole), the answer is that
everyone has their own Freedom Zero that they care about, and one of them
might be, "I want to use the hardware and software that I want to use, that
works for me, rather than be restricted to what Jeff Atwood personally
approves of and claims to do so for moral and ethical reasons that I don't
necessarily agree with."
I'm not saying he's wrong. It's just much more interesting to live in a world
where tons of different philosophies perpetually collide and mutate and
influence each other, rather than one in which we've collectively decided that
there's one and only one way to do something, and there's no room for debate
or people just doing whatever the heck they want to do provided they don't
hurt anyone else.
------
chipotle_coyote
Variants of this come up from time to time, and that alone rather undercuts
the question in the article title -- if _no one_ gave a crap about "Freedom
Zero," then people wouldn't keep asking the question.
My biggest problem with Atwood's specific argument is that claiming that Macs
are "dongles" for OS X is that it's essentially an argument that _platform
incompatibilities_ violate Freedom Zero, which is, with all respect to Atwood,
a little nutty. I owned a TRS-80 in the late 1980s, and I'm pretty sure that
my inability to run Apple II software on it could not be accurately blamed on
hardware-based copy protection. The Mac is not a dongle for OS X any more than
OS X is a dongle for Cocoa software. Or are we seriously going to argue that
it's harmful for consumers if we can't run all applications on all platforms,
and that the differentiation should only be a matter of aesthetics? (Which,
all platforms followed Freedom Zero, would be easily changeable anyway,
right?)
The thing I'd really like to see more focus on is _data freedom._ Maybe what
I'm using to read ebooks, play music, watch videos, create word processing
documents and spreadsheets, write code, and edit photos in is open source,
maybe it isn't -- but switching to something _else_ to do those things in
shouldn't require me to lose fidelity/functionality in a conversion process,
let alone require me to either re-buy something due to DRM (or crack the DRM).
Yes, if I had the freedom _and the ability_ to modify every application on
every platform, I would theoretically have complete data freedom -- but I
should be able to have that even if I'm using 100% closed source software.
~~~
Dylan16807
It's not just architectural differences; Apple goes _out of their way_ to make
OS X break on the hardware they don't sell. This is a definite violation of
freedom zero.
~~~
chipotle_coyote
My understanding was that it's less malevolence on Apple's part than Macs not
being _quite_ like PCs architecturally, particularly with respect to firmware
-- but it's somewhat orthogonal to both my (strained) analogy and my point. :)
I like _both_ OS X and Apple hardware. But we're living in the future,
compared to back when I first got into computing, and data is a _lot_ more
easily transportable between platforms. If at some point I decide that I don't
like that combination enough to pay the price differential between a new Mac
laptop and a comparable PC laptop[1], switching platforms will suck a little,
but it won't be a nightmare. I simply don't agree with the assertion that my
freedom is cruelly curtailed if I can't run OS X on a cheaper Acer laptop.
[1]: Please nobody tell me that I'm paying three times as much for "exactly
the same thing," or conversely argue that Macs are cheaper than PCs if you
only look at it the right way. No, I'm not. No, they're not.
------
dylangs1030
I love this post intellectually, but I believe it has a fairly simple answer -
convenience and design. @patio11 also discussed these on his blog[1], which
I'll get into:
Most people (users/customers) don't give a crap about freedom zero because
most people _aren 't hackers._ Most people want things to "just work." Most
people don't want to tinker and screw around hunched in front of a lit screen
for a few hours just to set up their drivers in a specific way.
On the other side, most employees don't care about perpetuating freedom zero
or that philosophy because it's not as rewarding. I mean, yeah, it feels good
to have open source projects and contribute to the community. But let's be
honest, it doesn't pay the bills as well as working at, say, Microsoft does.
Proprietary software attracts the more highly skilled engineers ( _usually_ \-
obviously some people are possessed of such personal conviction in software
freedom that they will give up high salaries for their hacker community, but
this is not the norm).
Here's a few examples to illustrate my point:
My mother is barely computer literate. If I presented her with Banshee instead
of iTunes, she'd freak out. It would either gray out, become non-responsive,
and subsequently close on her while syncing, or she wouldn't have all the
features that a coordinated group of engineers in a multinational company
built and designed for mass production.
As a programmer, I'm the same way. I want things to just work. Just because I
know how to do things most other people don't using a computer doesn't
automatically mean I'm invested in the free software movement. I dual-boot
linux on my Mac, but I only use it for technical reasons. I don't honestly
believe it's applicable or relevant to most people's uses of a computer. It
doesn't "just work" _a lot of the time_ \- enough for it to be annoying.
There's a "feel good" euphoria that occurs in an intellectually superior sort
of way when you install linux, but it quickly drops off when it's a hassle
just to get YouTube videos to play properly.
Secondly, and _just as importantly_ \- design. Do rhythmbox or banshee have as
_sexy_ a design as iTunes? Could they, with the resources they have? No, and
no. Sure, they have accomplished something impressive, and in some respects,
they have higher utility than iTunes. But overall, it's not an attractive
interface. As Dave Wiskus would say, it isn't _relevant_ and it doesn't
_match_ \- a program needs to look like it _belongs_ in the system it's
designed under in order for it to be liked by a user many times. This doesn't
just mean that software has to look like Windows or Mac, but that it has to
_understand_ the user and take out cumbersome decisions while preserving
features in a way that is _similarly intuitive to the system it resides in_ \-
that's very hard. It's also why UI and UX designers are as well paid as
programmers.
We see this with apps all the time. When an app doesn't look like it matches
the sleekness of iPhone's design i.e. it's clunky or looks "themed" with no
custom overhead, it has a verifiable impact on the marketability of the app.
The same applies to software. patio11's Bingo Card Creator competes with open
source by being _better_ because he has higher motivation. It's _easier_ to
obtain proprietary software (read: not cheaper, easier) because there's no
hierarchy of betas and alphas and complicated names. There's a simple
"download" or "install" button. The design has full teams of people behind it,
knowing which hundred things to take out for which one thing to keep. Open
source can't afford that.
This is why freedom zero isn't popular. I love free software, and I have a
good advantage over "normal" (non-technical) users in utilizing it, but it's
just not practical if you desire convenience _and_ utility.
[1]: [http://www.kalzumeus.com/2009/03/07/how-to-successfully-
comp...](http://www.kalzumeus.com/2009/03/07/how-to-successfully-compete-with-
open-source-software/)
~~~
icebraining
_Most people (users /customers) don't give a crap about freedom zero because
most people aren't hackers. Most people want things to "just work." Most
people don't want to tinker and screw around hunched in front of a lit screen
for a few hours just to set up their drivers in a specific way._
Oh, please, not this outdated crap. As long as you don't choose a particularly
hostile machine, nowadays GNU Linux distros don't require almost any manual
driver installation, and even restricted drivers can be installed with a
couple of clicks.
Linux just doesn't offer anything that most users can appreciate. How hard it
is to install or run doesn't even enter the picture.
_My mother is barely computer literate. If I presented her with Banshee
instead of iTunes, she 'd freak out. It would either gray out, become non-
responsive, and subsequently close on her while syncing, or she wouldn't have
all the features that a coordinated group of engineers in a multinational
company built and designed for mass production._
Clearly you haven't used the Windows version of that marvel of technology. It
features all of that plus randomly not detecting the iPod, being bloated as
hell and slow as molasses.
I agree that Free Software is not as convenient as proprietary software,
though, and I frankly have no interest in convincing any of my relatives to
use Linux instead of Windows.
~~~
dylangs1030
I'm glad you agree with my conclusion.
What you said about drivers is defensible; it was just the first thought that
popped into my head. Nowadays linux has progressed enough to bypass that
_usually_ \- but what about being required to use the terminal just to
install?
Most users don't know what _sudo_ , _wget_ , _make_ , or _apt-get_ commands
are, just to start. Most users don't know what _commands_ are, in fact. They
don't care about root access or custom options. They need and expect a
graphical wizard to walk them through the core basics of their programs, and
even then they shouldn't try to perform anything other than the checked box
"basic installation". Perhaps that's a better example?
Now, you can blame this on third party developers not packaging their
applications as handily as they do for Mac or Windows, forcing people to
gather and compile sources themselves. But this doesn't change the bottom-line
- linux is _not_ convenient (which we agree on).
And I have used iTunes on Windows, and I found it wasn't bloated. It seems to
be more or less on par with my Mac to be honest, though frankly I haven't used
it for that platform except to help other people in the past year.
~~~
jiggy2011
To be fair, if you use a friendly distro like Ubuntu you don't have to touch
the command line unless you want to or you're trying to do something
reasonably advanced.
Ironically I also find that I can often get things to work much more easily
too.
Tried to setup a printer the other day under Windows 7 and went through a
process of faffing around with HP drivers, updates and weird dialog boxes.
Under Ubuntu I told it to print and it basically said "on this printer?" , I
said "yes" and it printed.
Also trying to share files between 2 computers on a LAN is an order of
magnitude easier.
The bigger problem is that lack of strong options for certain types of
software (e.g Music editing, Graphics editing, Games) under Linux and also
support for some types of hardware. Though these would be quickly rectified if
it had marketshare.
~~~
dylangs1030
The problem with marketshare is that it's a cycle. Getting marketshare
requires those kinds of features (generally), which requires paying your
engineers a better salary (again, generally, there are exceptions). But that
won't happen without a marketshare to bankroll better engineers. And at that
point, you might as well be proprietary.
~~~
jiggy2011
Not sure what salaries Canonical pay , but I assume that they are competitive
enough. I have heard that the perks are good, work from home etc. So I doubt
that they have a problem attracting good talent, I would wager that their
average level of developer skill is significantly higher than the average
devshop.
Of course they are a smaller company (than say Apple), so may not have the
resources to build every single program people want. OTOH third party vendors
can certainly fill this gap, but then you hit the chicken and egg problem that
third party vendors don't want to develop for it (at least desktop software)
because marketshare is low.
Web based and cross platform software alleviates this problem significantly
though.
Of course it depends if you are Richard Stallman and must use 100% GPL
software for everything, or whether you are happy with certain compromises. I
would say that having your core OS as 100% open source software even if you
run proprietary apps on top is a significant step forward.
~~~
icebraining
rms doesn't have to use 100% GPL software, he's fine with MIT, Apache, BSD,
etc ;)
------
theltrj
The whole argument is a non sequitur. The products and companies the author is
hoping people defer too, are not prevalent in mainstream society yet. Ubuntu
and Arch Linux do not have stores in the mall. Sparkfun is not making arduino
based mp3 players and phones down by the food court.
I think this highlights an interesting point, but we aren't there yet as a
culture, globally.
------
rossjudson
I've always been interested in maintaining the ability to perform general
computation. To me, that's being able to run any program I construct on my
hardware. I don't demand that the program be able to interact with other
systems, but I do demand that I be able to execute the instructions I want.
That generalizes freedom 0 to the set of programs the user constructs.
If a general-purpose program has to pass an authentication protocol before
it's allowed to run, the surrounding environment is an attack on the
construction of free speech by more efficient means.
Or something like that.
------
rmrfrmrf
There's always been this sort of philosophical disconnect in the programming
world.
"We love Windows and Linux because they don't lock down their environments
like Apple does!"
"We love Android because its ecosystem isn't locked down like iOS's!"
Yet, on the other hand:
"We hate products that are designed by committee!"
"We love Rails because it forces convention over configuration!"
~~~
icebraining
It's almost like there are different people with different opinions.
~~~
rmrfrmrf
Don't be ridiculous!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Sinclair Zx Spectrum: absolutely better than Commodore 64 (2005) - grujicd
http://www.alfonsomartone.itb.it/fztsmo.html
======
Razengan
Watch it. Wars were started for less.
The Spectrum was my first ever computer, and the Commodore 64 my second.. Or
rather, _our_ computer, as it was shared by the adults in our family and their
adult friends, who only let me use it with supervision so I wouldn't break
anything. :)
My best memories from that era are the MAGAZINES.
The art, the wacky reviewers (some of them fictional characters), the slang,
the in-jokes, the readers' letters, the tips, the maps, the type-in programs,
the pull-out posters, previews, developer diaries..
It really was a great time to be growing up, and computers and video games
were the best hobby, because there was never a period when there wasn't
something NEW.
There was always something to be amazed at. Always something to look forward
to. New software and new hardware were constantly coming out. All other
interests seemed so _dull_ and uneventful. Ooh, 16 colors! then ooh, 32! then
omg, you won't believe this, 256!!
Entire genres being born right before your eyes. Sound channels were also
increasing, music the kind you didn't hear anywhere else, speech synthesis to
call your friends naughty words with, mice like they used in posh offices,
game controllers like in that arcade your parents never let you stay long
enough in, new operating systems... what's an operating system? Why do we need
one? Computers run just fine without it..
I wouldn't pick any other childhood.
I fantasized about owning an Amiga but the C64 was good enough too. I still
remember the very first game I played on it and its music:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slBHx5_8fms](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slBHx5_8fms)
~~~
yodsanklai
I had the exact same childhood. Somehow I feel that the limited resources of
the computers back then made the games more fun and original. There was a lot
of creativity. People would come up with new concepts all the time, you never
knew what the next cool games would be like.
Another notable point is that not everybody had a computer (at least where I
lived). Something like 10-20% of the kids were actively using their computer,
so you could be part of a tribe.
It was also easy to get into programming. The OS presented itself as a basic
interpreter, and any manual that you would buy with your computer would
explain how to write simple programs.
It was definitely a particular era. I wonder if there is something equivalent
today. What do 8-years old kids do nowadays? besides watching youtube videos.
~~~
UncleSlacky
There's quite a big community around Scratch, also with Python on Raspberry Pi
(at least in the UK), but nothing on the scale of the 80s.
~~~
walkingolof
Sure, but it's hard to compare that to the home computer era, we were the
first generation with a computer of our own, and grown-ups had literally no
clue. The systems where very limited and the gaps had to be filled by the
imagination. It was a magic time in history that won't return.
~~~
Razengan
> _It was a magic time in history that won 't return._
That is such a true and sad realization..
I guess it applies to other fields of technology which have rapid progress at
the start and there's a lot of room to explore and few visible boundaries.
Like seafaring. When people first invented boats they had literally the entire
world made open to them, that they could previously only imagine.
Personal computers were like the invention of seafaring for the mind.
I guess the next frontier like that is space, where literally the entire
universe is waiting to be discovered. :)
------
jacquesm
Hilarious story. I repaired both for a living at the time for Cafka (when they
were still small), an Amsterdam computer store that did great business until
one day the owner went to his accountant and upon returning shot himself. He
never factored in paying taxes.
The C64 had pretty good hardware, but absolutely terrible software. The BASIC
it shipped with was just good enough to load machine language from disk to run
it, compared to let's say BBC Micro basic it didn't stand a chance, so it
isn't all that surprising that the Spectrum ran rings around it when it came
to basic (pun intended) functionality.
Both the Spectrum _and_ the C64 were left in the dust by the BBC by the way,
but it cost a large amount of money so that shouldn't be a surprise. It was
also built like a tank and came with a ton of expansion options. Pity it
wasn't a three way match :)
~~~
zabzonk
And yet the C64 (and VIC) far outsold the BBC Micro and the Spectrum.
And yes, BBC Basic was a very nice language, but it wasn't very fast for real-
world tasks. Way back then I implemented the KERMIT file transfer protocol
(and a VT100 terminal emulator) in BBC Basic and it was very slow. I re-wrote
it in 6502 assembler to make it really usable. So for anything serious you
needed to do on the BBC Micro, you needed to write it in assembler.
And don't get me started on that "reset" key that could be hit by accident at
any time. Or the crap DFS disk file system.
~~~
jacquesm
Ah, but the assembler was built in, for other computers that was extra, and
the 'reset' key (aka the 'break' key) was annoying _but_ the BASIC interpreter
had the 'old' command which would usually - but not always... - restore your
code.
Still, to make that key a keyboard key right next to a function key wasn't the
best UI decision, to put it mildly.
As for speed, it wasn't very fast in absolute terms, but it was very fast
compared to other BASIC implementations, and pretty much bug free (only one
bug was ever found in the code, which I think is absolutely amazing for a ROM
that size).
~~~
zabzonk
The built-in assembler was really not suitable for anything other than writing
some small snippets to be called from Basic - the KERMIT/VT100 implementation
I wrote, which was quite full-feature, was written using a 3rd party disk-
based assembler, which was much easier to work with.
~~~
jacquesm
I wrote my own, didn't have money for 3rd party stuff, already did a 6809
version together with a friend so it was relatively easy. Even so, the built
in assembler was a bonus item and it worked pretty good to bootstrap new stuff
including ROM images and proper assemblers.
------
juskrey
Side note: ZX Spectrum was my first computer, and since then I have never ever
experienced such a joy about working with new gadget.. I even thought it was
some childhood effect, never to be repeated again. Can't describe in words, I
think everyone here know what I mean.
Until I have made a Tesla test drive..
~~~
stevekemp
I grew up in the UK, and my first computer (shared with the family) was a ZX
Spectrum.
The fact that we couldn't load games over hte christmas period, because the
cassette player was broken, was the reason I started programming:
[https://blog.steve.fi/how_i_started_programming.html](https://blog.steve.fi/how_i_started_programming.html)
~~~
regularfry
The jack socket on my 48k+ had a fault where you needed to hold the plug at a
specific angle or it wouldn't make contact. You had to do that and remain
motionless for the entire loading cycle. Something like 40% of the tapes I
bought never actually loaded, and I was never sure if it was because I wasn't
holding it right, or they were faulty out of the box.
And no, I never had the confidence at the time to take the lid off and see if
I could fix it. It was just too precious to take the risk.
------
speakeron
First program I ever wrote on a Sinclair Spectrum was to spin a disk on the
screen.
I was disappointed with the performance, so for the second program I
precalculated the sin/cos values and stored them in an array (and learnt that
all programming is an exercise in caching).
I was still disappointed with the performance, so the third program I wrote
was a hex loader so I could poke machine code straight into it (had to run
down to the local electronics store to pick up copy of the Z80 assembler
manual). I then was happy with the speed.
That kickstarted a career in software development which I still derive immense
enjoyment from.
~~~
alok-g
Oh my! Your story is a very significant overlap with mine!
I started programming at an age of 11 years, when I did not even know the
meaning of sin and cos.
The spinning 3D ring I had created was slow like yours, speeded up by caching
sin and cos values like yours. The final one had entire frames precomputed in
memory and cycled by hand-written machine code into the video memory space.
That last one was when I was when 14 years of age.
------
karmakaze
The Zx has a Z80 3.5 MHz where the C64 has a 6510 1.0 MHz. With this
difference it would take major limitations in the graphics/sound hw of the Zx
to come off worse.
Edit: I had an Atari 6502 1.79 MHz and I wouldn't say it was clearly superior
to the C64 because the C64 had more flexible sprites and sound. What I would
say is that the Atari peeps I met were more hacker-like than the C64 folks who
were more like users/gamers.
~~~
mrob
> major limitations in the graphics/sound hw of the Zx
That's exactly the case. The C64 had hardware sprites and scrolling, and one
of the best sound chips of all time with the SID. The Spectrum had a memory-
mapped bitmap display with low resolution color, and a CPU-controlled beeper.
And the Spectrum's CPU advantage wasn't as much as the clock speeds suggest,
because the 6502 could get more done per cycle, and the Spectrum's CPU had
wait states when accessing the 16K block of RAM containing the graphics RAM.
I played a lot of Spectrum games as a child, but looking at it objectively,
the C64 is a far superior machine. However, both systems were crippled by the
single-button joystick standard of the time. The greatest feature of the NES
was the B button.
~~~
karmakaze
I never really thought about the joystick button limitation at the time. The
original Atari 800/400 had 4 joystick ports so someone could have used two
ports 10-bits of input per player for a 2-player game. Each cardinal direction
(NSWE was 1-bit with pairs being closed for diagonals).
------
mbroncano
Everyone knows MSX were the truly superior computers at the time
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSX](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSX)
~~~
lstodd
Nah, I had a C64c and access to YIS503II MSX.
MSX is nowhere near a C64. It's just.. bland. Also ugly.
------
Marazan
Title is factually correct. Article is superfluous.
------
christkv
The craziest c64 thing I've seen recently is this 48Khz audio player
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYAf_awh5XA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYAf_awh5XA),
blog post here [http://brokenbytes.blogspot.com/2018/03/a-48khz-digital-
musi...](http://brokenbytes.blogspot.com/2018/03/a-48khz-digital-music-player-
for.html).
Its quite outstanding what you can do with the SID chip.
------
jascii
Except that pesky -used chewinggum- keyboard..
~~~
nickt
Just get a Spectrum+, a better keyboard than some modern laptops... :)
~~~
amiga-workbench
Apart from when you hit a key at just the wrong angle and it sticks.
~~~
nickt
Ha, didn't have that problem with my A4000 keyboard.
------
tluyben2
I love the Z80; it was my second (the first was a luggable IBM XT clone; it
truly sucked compared to the home computers of that time) CPU experience
beginning of the 80s and it was great. I couldn't imagine anything better and
I have not found anything better. I do a lot of embedded asm coding now with
modern CPUs and it is just not as nice to me as writing asm on a Z80 system
is. Probably because I did so much of it at a young age; it is still fun and
fluent. No manuals/internet needed on msx or spectrum, which is also fun; if
anything tells me it is not only nostalgia, it is that; being able to write
programs without needing to look everything up or download libraries. Not
practical these days (mostly because everything has to be modular, so almost
nothing ships with batteries included anymore), but still preferable in my
opinion.
~~~
stevekemp
I'm reliving my youth by programming assembly which is running on a real Z80
processor, driven by an arduino mega.
~~~
tluyben2
I collected old (60s-80s) machines for many years when they were still free or
very cheap. So I have all kinds of ZX spectrums and MSXs and others (very rare
dual cpu Z80) to play around on reliving my youth. With Symbos [0] it is a lot
of fun.
[0] [http://www.symbos.de/](http://www.symbos.de/)
------
nickswan
If you can find it, MicroMen is a really good watch you’ll all enjoy (this is
just a link to the trailer)
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fGiGrf2YyZE](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fGiGrf2YyZE)
------
zzo38computer
We can see then, there are some advantages and disadvantages each one.
Clearly, ZX Spectrum has a better included BASIC software; will allow you to
make large strings, screen pausing automatically, and the Commodore 64 system
software must take up too much RAM that only 38911 out of 64K is available for
BASIC (or maybe it is due to bank switching; I don't know). But because they
compare disks with tapes we cannot compare the loading speed properly, and do
not know which is better.
------
Razengan
For those who're interested in the 1980s "micro wars", BBC's Micro Men TV
movie (2009) is a nice dramatized glimpse of it:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXBxV6-zamM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXBxV6-zamM)
Though it does paint Clive Sinclair (the Steve Jobs of the UK) in a somewhat
unflattering light.
------
Causality1
Just from a usability standpoint, what is it about the ZX Spectrum that could
possibly make up for the horrific rubber keyboard?
~~~
enneff
They released a Spectrum+ that has a much better keyboard.
~~~
Causality1
It went from horrific to merely bad. That model also had a 30% unit failure
rate.
------
kresten
I wish I knew back then all the technic knowledge I have now.
I really had zero idea what was going on inside the machine and no-one to
teach me.
~~~
stevekemp
I was lucky enough to be able to get a couple of books from the local library
with coding examples. Usually these would be the usbourne books - which had
BASIC listings for multiple home-computers at the time.
I did come across a couple of books that briefly documented assembly language
stuff, and of course the (orange) manuals included with the computer contained
a lot of good information.
Even now I have my Z80 books, they've moved house with me and even emigrated
to a whole new country.
~~~
carey
Do you mean the Usborne books? For some serious nostalgia, you can read them
for free at [https://usborne.com/browse-books/features/computer-and-
codin...](https://usborne.com/browse-books/features/computer-and-coding-
books/).
~~~
stevekemp
Yup, thanks for the correction.
------
cromwellian
Can the Sinclair do nearly full-screen 16fps video and 8khz digital audio
streamed and real time decompressed from a floppy? Demoscene shows how vastly
more capable the C64 was. Look at the hi-res ultra-color art in this demo.
(watch from beginning to see some of the art)
[https://youtu.be/FTtKHLZTbtA?t=653](https://youtu.be/FTtKHLZTbtA?t=653)
------
rasz
"..for BASIC"
and as everyone should know "It is practically impossible to teach good
programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential
programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."
------
desireco42
ZX Spectrum of my childhood. Some of greatest moments spent thanks to it.
Determined my career.
And superior to C64 :), except turbo loader was just a thing we couldn't have
properly.
Raspberry Pi could become something similar with a little love and support.
------
vardump
Silly ZX Spectrum people.
Of course breadbin is better! ;-)
------
sys_64738
The Commodore 64 is the best selling 8-bit computer in the world. Nobody
really used the Spectrum outside the UK and eastern Europe.
~~~
KC8ZKF
It was sold as the Timex Sinclair in the USA.
I was planning on buying one, but ended up with a used VIC-20 instead.
~~~
Someone
The Timex Sinclair was a variation on the ZX81, not a Spectrum.
~~~
UncleSlacky
The Timex Sinclair 2068 was the US Spectrum variant:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timex_Sinclair_2068](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timex_Sinclair_2068)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
CMSC389R: Introduction to Ethical Hacking - woodruffw
https://github.com/UMD-CS-STICs/389Rspring18
======
rman666
How does one sign up for this course?
~~~
woodruffw
We're currently teaching it at the undergraduate level at the University of
Maryland, so there's no online sign-up. You can, of course, follow along with
our weekly slides (and videos, which we'll be posting soon).
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Twitter trouble - handling 11,000 requests per second w/ Rails! - joshwa
http://www.loudthinking.com/arc/000608.html
======
felipe
I totally agree with the concept that speed does not really matter because
hardware is cheaper than programmers. And I never understood the criticism
towards Ruby being slow... If it improves my productivity, who cares?
However, the REAL problem I see here is that apparently the very features that
make Rails productive must be thrown away for the application to scale. If
that's the case, then that's a _huge_ issue and even a show-stopper if you ask
me.
I think the problem lies on how clustering is usually implemented in Rails.
I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that Mongrel distributes the load
across multiple web servers, right? If that's the case, then the bottleneck
becomes the database, and that's the key issue IMHO (and the hardest one to
solve).
In Java (more specifically JBoss), clustering is implemented at the
application logic level: The app server manages the state of the application
and then it caches and replicates the state whenever necessary.
I really don't see how Rails will solve this problem unless with some kind of
application-level communication across the servers... And that's a tough one.
Suffice to say that the Java community took like 10 years to come up with
something effective!
Note: Please don't take me wrong: I'm not trying to start a Rails vs. Java war
here! I'm just sharing my experience on how Java solved this issue...
~~~
bootload
_'... I really don't see how Rails will solve this problem unless with some
kind of application-level communication across the servers ...'_
This is something that appears to popping up again and again in Web2 [0]. Is
Twitter utilising 'memcached' & 'MogileFS' [1] in their optimisations trying
to reduce the load on MySql?
Reference
[0] Myspace thread ~ <http://news.ycombinator.com/comments?id=1015>
[1] Distributed file storage: MogileFS ~
<http://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=12345>
------
brett
To me this reads as relatively diplomatic for DHH. The interview in question
is pretty critical and while DHH seems to suggest that scaling like this is
going to suck rails or otherwise he does not address all the criticisms head
on and his tone is slightly conciliatory. I guess there's not a lot he can
say; arguing performance in the abstract is one thing, but if twitter is
saying ruby and rails are slow(er) there's something to that.
It still seems like a good trade off if rails makes you more productive and
you've got to get to twitter's size to feel it.
~~~
aston
There's only so much to that productivity argument. I suspect the time it
takes to make big changes to the Rails stack for performance sake far exceeds
the relatively small savings in initial development time. According to
Compete, Twitter's not _that_ big [0].
[0]<http://snapshot.compete.com/twitter.com+techcrunch.com?metric=uv>
~~~
brett
Yeah. It's a give and take to be sure. I'd take Twitter's current position any
day. But you're right they're still in a position to stay ahead of competition
and net productivity of development and scaling has to be considered.
Worth noting Twitter's audience is using it a lot differently than
Techcrunch's is, so relative audience size is not totally meaningful.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Does Bitcoin/Blockchain make sense for international money transfers? - propter_hoc
https://www.saveonsend.com/blog/bitcoin-blockchain-money-transfer/
======
MrMorden
Goods/services purchased from a business? Given the fees for completing a
Bitcoin transaction, I'd say no unless you start getting into at least mid
three-figures USD. (That's not counting any fees to convert fiat into BTC.)
Person-to-person transfer (e.g. remittances)? It'd probably make more sense to
use Xoom or Transferwise where available.
The big (legitimate) use for Bitcoin international money transfers is dodging
capital controls imposed by illegitimate governments, e.g., you're in
Venezuela and you want to send money to your family in Colombia/Brazil/US.
~~~
phil21
> Goods/services purchased from a business? Given the fees for completing a
> Bitcoin transaction, I'd say no unless you start getting into at least mid
> three-figures USD. (That's not counting any fees to convert fiat into BTC.)
what? 15-20 cents is not a major transaction fee, especially when compared to
WU and other alternatives
You may have had a point with fiat conversion fees which can be hefty, but you
specifically didn't count them.
I've only paid a > $.50 transaction fee on the bitcoin network for about 45
days during the huge runup in Nov/Dec 2017. Any other time and the fees are in
the double-digit cents for nearly guaranteed confirmation on the next block.
Edit: Whoops, just saw your reply. Leaving this up for posterity :)
------
decentralised
Sure it does. Under normal circumstances, Bitcoin or Ethereum transactions
cost only a few euro cents regardless of the amount transferred, while
international remittance businesses always charge much more.
I read somewhere that the top 3 money remittance businesses (WU, etc) make as
much profit as we (EU + US) spend in international aid. If those in the
diaspora can send money back home without these middlemen, we could all stand
to gain.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Marissa Mayer's life as a working mom has nothing to do with you - dsr12
http://pandodaily.com/2012/11/30/attention-women-marissa-mayers-life-as-a-working-mom-has-nothing-to-do-with-you/
======
dennisgorelik
Unexpected quote from Marissa, mentioning "God":
[http://lifeinc.today.com/_news/2012/11/28/15509672-for-
maris...](http://lifeinc.today.com/_news/2012/11/28/15509672-for-marissa-
mayer-its-god-family-and-yahoo)
"For me, it's God, family, and Yahoo, in that order."
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
WebAudioFont – 400 musical instruments for JavaScript - sss1024
https://github.com/surikov/webaudiofont
======
sss1024
Bunch of musical instruments for web applications. Guitars, pianos, drums etc.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Of Courics and User Experience - jakequist
http://quist.co/post/6112422007/the-fundamental-theorem-of-user-experience
======
jlind
I've lost count of the number of times that I have left a website simply
because they wanted me to provide some sort of information before I saw what
they actually had to offer.
Also a sidenote to the OP: the example app (tripador.com) seemed to be down
for me.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
AppFog Wants To Do For Developer Platforms What Google Did For EMail - turoczy
http://techcrunch.com/2012/07/25/appfog-wants-to-do-for-developer-platforms-what-google-did-for-email/
======
redslazer
Im really not sure about the pricing model. Here are a couple of points:
There are tons of people looking for $5 vps that have like 500mb on ram. Your
pricing structure will be like a magnet for those type of people. I dont think
may of those people will upgrade to a $100 a month plan though.
As with the point above, you are relying to heavily on the people who have
bought into the system at the free plan and now have to migrate. If I were to
go onto one of the paid plans I would feel bad knowing most of the money im
spending is going to provide a free service tier.
50Gb data transfer limit 0_0. Its 2012, bandwidth is dirt cheap and 50GB
really is not that much. Especially if the person is paying $100+ per month.
If someone is using more than 2GB of ram they are most likely using more than
50GB of incoming/outgoing data.
Edit: I signed up to test it out and while it says unlimited services (free
plan) once you signup it limits you to 10.
Edit2: Turns out you need to have some ruby knowledge to get started (even if
they offer a ton of languages). Since I dont I will have to postpone playing
with it till the weekend where I can dedicate some time to playing with ruby.
~~~
benmccann
FYI, it's $0.15/GB for additional data transfer:
[https://groups.google.com/d/topic/appfog-
users/UtTmKrxSTYA/d...](https://groups.google.com/d/topic/appfog-
users/UtTmKrxSTYA/discussion)
~~~
redslazer
It doesn't matter, even if the bandwidth was free. It is not stated anywhere
so a potential customer will see that number and be less likely to buy the
plan even if it is the smallest limitation.
------
ericcholis
I'm seeing a lot of comments talking about "just get a {VPS, dedicate box,
Amazon, etc...}". I think people are missing the point. AppFog is trying to
take all the "hard" work out of SysOps. Think Chef on crack, you are paying
for their pre-configured infrastructure from the top down.
Their idea is provide a powerful, scaleable platform quickly and easily. Their
mentality is called NoOps (<http://blog.appfog.com/what-is-noops-anyhow/>).
It's a cheesy marketing term, and pissed a lot of people off, but it's pretty
spot on for what their service offers.
------
cardmagic
<https://console.appfog.com/pricing>
2GB RAM FREE | 4GB RAM $100/month | 16GB RAM $380/month | 32GB RAM $720/month
| More if you contact AppFog
Scaling your app is free, choosing multiple infrastructures is free, custom
domains are free, fastest available servers in the infrastructures
~~~
patrickaljord
on the other hand, ovh offers dedicated servers for:
16GB RAM £70/month
24GB RAM £100/month
24GB RAM £180/month
64GB RAM £260/month
<http://www.ovh.co.uk/dedicated_servers/>
~~~
EwanToo
That's so far from a like for like comparison that I can only think you've not
read what AppFog is offering...
------
nl
_AppFog's service extends across different infrastructure providers_
Dropping into the IaaS world for a minute, is this as common as it seems me to
be?
Personally, I run servers over number of cloud providers, and then have a few
VPSs around too, plus some servers at home, and lots of people I know are the
same.
Is this a common thing people do?
I've been thinking about doing a dashboard type app to display/manage servers
across providers.
What tools are people using at the moment for this kind of thing?
(I'm actually running a very short survey on this at the moment. I'd love it
if people would do it - happy to share the results here:
<http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/LDNZFG3>)
~~~
dangrossman
It may be a common thing individual developers that play with everything do. I
doubt it's common for businesses to deploy production apps across multiple
clouds. Unfortunately I don't think that survey will be able to answer that
either way.
~~~
nl
It's interesting.
I've been running that survey for a little while, with a non-HN audience. More
than 50% use more than one provider, and people managing more than 10 servers
(who I presume are doing it for a business) don't seem any less likely.
(Thanks for all the answers BTW. I especially liked the OrionVM vs Ninefold
comparison someone did in a comment - I'm from Australia, and for various
reasons are reasonably familiar with the offering available. Alex from OrionVM
is on HN, too)
------
Maxious
"Page Could Not Be Loaded
We're very sorry, but the page could not be loaded properly. This should be
fixed very soon, and we apologize for any inconvenience.
Debug Info:
Status: 503 Response: Service Unavailable XID: 1889032339
AppFog"
Uhh, scaling issues?
------
tangerine
Just curious - How is this different than buying a server from Amazon, and
sticking Ruby (or whatever it is that I need) on it and using it? Does the
incremental value provided by Appfog lies in the fact it abstracts this get-
meself-a-server-from-amazon part? Genuinely curious and hence asking.
~~~
cardmagic
A thousand words, or 30 seconds start to finish of deploying a Ruby app
yourself on AppFog - <https://console.appfog.com/signup>
~~~
tangerine
I registered as you suggested. I agree that getting productive in 10-15
minutes is great, but the setup time, at least for me, even if it takes a
whole day, is a negligible overhead in my life as a programmer. Currently I
run multiple servers on Amazon and as someone that programs in more than two
languages, I drop an instance of whatever I am working on (Ruby, Java, Django
as examples) and they really do not take much time at all. I am sure this post
shows my age, but I am trying to understand the real value a service like
Appfog provides.
Also may I ask how do I setup ssh trust and how do I access the command
prompt.
~~~
EwanToo
AppFog handle things like software updates, scaling beyond one machine, DDoS
attacks, all those kind of things.
You ask them to deploy a (for example) MongoDB service, they do it, and they
are responsible for the operation of it.
The idea is to reduce the amount of day to day (or more likely month to month)
work involved in doing things like security patches, upgrading infrastructure,
etc, that suck up a lot of time, especially for people who don't have
experience in building load balancers and so on.
~~~
manku_timma
That is true, but what appfog (and the other PaaS providers) do not give is
the ability to tweak service[1] configs even to a limited degree. Not needing
to worry about Mongo or MySql setup is great, but for all of my non trivial
use cases, I have had to adjust configs at least a little.
[1] Cloud Foundry(and by implication AppFog) differentiate apps from services,
where services are backend infra like databases.
------
timjahn
I think AppFog needs to figure out their branding, with regards to how AppFog
and PHPfog are perceived.
Is AppFog the parent company and PHPfog is a product of that company? Are they
two separate brands/companies?
We're using PHPfog for our MVP of matchist (matchist.com). Does the new AppFog
free plan apply to PHPfog too? I sure hope so, otherwise we just got screwed
by this.
I think they need to be a bit more clear about this.
~~~
malachismith
AppFog is the parent company. PHP Fog and AppFog are the two PaaS products
that AppFog the company make and sell.
------
ilaksh
Does this give me one VPS that I can resize up to 2GB without paying for?
Can I launch multiple VPSs that are up to 2GB?
If you are trying to say its not a VPS, I don't believe you. I bet it is at
least built on some kind of virtualization. What is it exactly?
~~~
EwanToo
It's not in itself a VPS no, it's an "application environment", that's self
contained and runs inside the Linux operating system. You can have multiple
applications running over multiple instances, and Appfog handle all the
deployment, scaling, and back-end management.
Those Linux instances are hosted on one of multiple providers (your choice),
for example Amazon, Rackspace, HP Cloud, etc.
~~~
ilaksh
I didn't ask if it was in itself a VPS. You know what I asked.
Thank you for giving me a little bit of an idea.
So basically, AppFrog launches VPSs with their own images on Rackspace or AWS
for you, which you don't access directly. So back to my question.
Is there a button I can press to say that I want another 'instance' (= VPS)?
If I press that button twice, can I get two 2GB instances? Or is there no way
to ask for another instance directly, instead I deploy another app, and it
will always just resize the instance up to 32GB at which point then it would
finally deploy a new VPS?
I understand that hand-waving and magic is the way that you sell a 'cloud
service'. I need more details about the mechanics of using it and also
specific information about the implementation in order to evaluate it,
however.
I mean not to be a dick, I think the idea of starting with 2GB of RAM for free
is freaking amazing and the right direction to go.
~~~
EwanToo
Yeah you can explicity launch multiple instances at your own control, each one
uses the same amount of memory - so you could launch 10 instances with 200MB
of RAM, or 1 instance with 2GB of RAM.
It's definitely worth signing up for, I've been using it for a couple of
months and overall I've been impressed, though they still have too many
glitches for me to be entirely happy deploying an important application to it.
------
pacomerh
I tried phpfog free for a while, I had very basic codeigniter setup and
noticed the mysql queries where much slower than a regular shared hosting. I
guess the free account works as a dashboard demo?, not sure.
------
codenerdz
This is nice, but i hope FREE lasts....
~~~
jhack
They're going to be explaining the business model tomorrow on their blog:
<https://twitter.com/appfog/status/228380656407826432>
~~~
malachismith
Right here: [http://blog.appfog.com/if-paas-is-expensive-and-slow-why-
not...](http://blog.appfog.com/if-paas-is-expensive-and-slow-why-not-use-a-
vps/)
------
adverscott
This is going to change the PaaS game!
------
GameDev
They claim to support .NET. But after sign up and creating an app in "Step 1:
Choose an application" i can not select any .NET "Application".
So their .NET Support claim is essentially a lie ?
~~~
dangrossman
It seems, from their past blog posts, that some advertised features are in
"private beta" still.
------
shpoonj
AppFog wants to make developer platforms load slowly and be so disorganized
and haphazard that you can't tell what's going on... great.
~~~
tegansnyder
People need to spend some time understanding their architecture before just
blindly moving into a PaaS provider. There are pitfalls and I bet we see some
startups go the PaaS route then pivot later on.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Facebook Live: Now You Can Never Leave - keiferski
http://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/facebook-live-now-you-can-never-leave
======
wallflower
From the article about Facebook Live
> If anything, Live further exposes Facebook’s active, seemingly unquenchable
> thirst for more ways to become the middleman in your digital interactions.
> It literally wants you to broadcast your life on the platform. But, as noted
> earlier, being caged doesn’t come that naturally to humans.
From "The Circle" by Dave Eggers - a "fiction" novel about a Facebook-like
mega infoglomerateorporation.
> Lionel can give me access to any of the cameras he wants. It's just like
> friending someone, but now with access to all their live feeds. Forget
> cable. Forget five hundred channels. If you have one thousand friends, and
> they have ten cameras each, you now have ten thousand options for live
> footage. ... The words dropped onto the screen: ALL THAT HAPPENS MUST BE
> KNOWN. "Folks, we're at the dawn of the Second Englightenment. And I'm not
> talking about a new building on campus. I'm talking about an era where we
> don't allow the majority of human thought and action and achievement and
> learning to escape as if from a leaky bucket."
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Circle_(Eggers_novel)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Circle_\(Eggers_novel\))
------
tdkl
I'm less interested in Facebook. With this, I'm even less interested as I
were.
After deleting the account (which was 6 years old), I came back after 6 months
and added a close group of people I actually care about now and in the
foreseeable future. I don't like things, don't follow, don't publicly comment
on businesses, only use the events and chat. The only app on mobile in use is
Messenger with all the data collection turned off, for the site I use a
wrapper app.
This seemed to me as a reasonable use of FB. All the rest is junk.
~~~
rpgmaker
I know you see it as a reasonable "middle ground" solution but you have to be
aware that you are still telling FB _a lot_ about yourself. The fact that you
only added your _actual_ friends the second time may even make it easier for
them to extract profit from your account.
~~~
tdkl
True, I'm willing to let them have that data for the services I actually
benefit from. But regarding data, those friends have probably uploaded my
contact details using the FB app anyway, so the Facebook had a shadow profile
about me, nevertheless me being registered there. At least this way I can
foresee what gets posted online about me and somehow control it.
In an ideal world this wouldn't be happening, but I saw that for the mental
health sake, it's better to let loose sometimes and just find some
compromises.
Oh and on the desktop I only login in incognito mode every couple days, since
they use the login cookie to track you online. For Messenger, there's a cool
Electron app [1], which brings native notifications.
[1] [http://messengerfordesktop.com/](http://messengerfordesktop.com/)
------
coroutines
I sometimes wonder if there is no 'After Facebook'.
I use different services for different community focuses - like YouTube and
Twitch for gaming videos/streams I watch with friends. Instagram for
incidental activity picture stuff. Twitter for talking directly "to"
companies. Signal for IM stuff. I do actually use Google Hangouts for board
game nights and talking about projects sometimes - kinda silly. :-)
I just find Facebook a mess with the ads and disorganization looking at so
many facets of my friends' lives. Google did good identifying the need for
putting people in circles, but Facebook was so well-established by then. I
only want to view things my friends are doing if its a mutual interest,
really. Facebook is like manually filtering through several streams of
consciousness - it's more exhausting than rewarding.
I don't think Facebook is ever going to fail and be the next MySpace, but I do
think social attitudes have changed about using a 'general' social networking
site.
~~~
hacker_9
The truth is Facebook pretty much has it all when it comes to social
networking. It's UI design also speaks well to non technical people (read:
most of the world), as it looks like a cluttered newspaper which people are
familiar with.
'After Facebook' would likely be on new hardware that gets adopted, such as
AR/VR in the next 10 years.
~~~
onewaystreet
> 'After Facebook' would likely be on new hardware that gets adopted, such as
> AR/VR in the next 10 years.
Which is why Facebook bought Oculus.
------
codingdave
People do not stay on Facebook because of its technology or features. They
stay on Facebook because of the people they are connected to. I was in my 30s
when Facebook came around, which was young enough to still care about, and be
excited by re-connecting with old friends from school. The thought of losing
touch with them all again made leaving Facebook a difficult choice. I
eventually did so, but had to come to terms with the fact that I was dropping
a large set of "friends" for the second time in my life.
~~~
darkclarity
It just seems unhealthy keeping in contact with that many people who were
resigned to the past. Never mind all the game-theory-esk psychological
manipulation that social networks push on us.
If people want to keep in contact with their past friends, then get their
phone numbers or become pen pals (email or post). There's no dodgy third party
trying to manipulate with those methods, just enthusiasm from the
participants.
------
ZenoArrow
What compels people to use Facebook? That's a genuine question, I don't think
I fully understand it.
Speaking personally, the only value it has for me is in keeping some form of
connection to people I would otherwise have lost contact with. I don't use it
for people I keep in contact with in other ways. For me the staying power of
Facebook is that it places low demands on staying connected. The setting also
seems to add to the informality, I could see myself preferring to email long
time friends (and I sometimes do), but perhaps the directness of connection is
off putting for some people who are used to sharing amongst an audience.
Does anyone here have any views about why people continue to use Facebook?
~~~
glaberficken
Loss of the fb timeline historical data is psychologically very hard to accept
even for people wanting to close their accounts.
I've talked about this with friends, relatives and co-workers and while most
of them have considered closing their accounts at some point, almost all of
them feel like they would be erasing an irreplaceable documented view into
their past self.
For me personally I don't post or read since a few years ago, and while I
wouldn't mind seeing my timeline erased, what has kept me from deleting y
account is simply that i "need" facebook as a contacts /messaging app.
Although I would prefer to handle my communication needs exclusively on email,
I have people in my life that simply do not reply to email, the only way to
reach them is via a facebook message.
~~~
Chathamization
> Although I would prefer to handle my communication needs exclusively on
> email, I have people in my life that simply do not reply to email, the only
> way to reach them is via a facebook message.
This is a big one. A lot of people I know simply don't send or reply to e-mail
anymore. And people don't use messenger services like they used to. So for a
lot of people, you're probably going to only message them on Facebook, or lose
contact with them.
I definitely think that email and messenger programs are better, since you
seem to have actual conversations with people (most Facebook conversations
I've had are pretty shallow). But they're not an option in a lot of cases.
Also, there's a good chance that you probably should lose contact with most of
the people you've met, but that's understandably hard for most people.
------
foxly
Holy browser fingerprinting, new yorker!
[https://imgur.com/XDUCt0R](https://imgur.com/XDUCt0R)
~~~
eeeeeeeeeeeee
I just added this extension, but in your experience, how common is this method
by sites? I received 11k+ on newyorker, is that a lot in comparison to some
other sites?
------
franbulax
"We study how the fence weaves into and out of the trees. And one day, when
the sun has gone down and the guards are asleep, we catapult over to the other
side, and see all the things we couldn’t see before."
Yep, and some of us even see the fence being built and make sure we stay on
the outside. It's easy to fence-in dopey ruminants, but wily canids prefer to
keep their options a little more flexible.
I refuse, as much as possible, to be herded around, sheep-like, and am
repulsed at the thought of being used, as do these "social" sites seeking to
"monetize" me, as grist for their psychological-manipulation-for-profit mills.
No product, I!
~~~
rtpg
Serious question, do you feel like Facebook provides much value to its users?
~~~
losteric
Oh definitely, just like a crack house.
They've got their friends and "friends" in a walled off room, socially
connected by leisure activities with questionable value to the residents. It's
more of a slum filled with degenerates and graffiti... but hey, people come
for the high not the scenery. The heavy users are there for life but even the
occasional users keep coming back.
Then of course there's the dealer managing the place... they're the only one
to actually benefit from the operation.
I'm being a little facetious, but in short: no. There are a multitude options
for chat that provide a better experience, keeping in contact was not a
problem in the first place, and all that's left are games or wanting to show
off/snoop on lives. I would argue it provides a largely negative value if you
consider filter bubbles and their impact on society. Shareholders are the only
ones that derive value from FB.
~~~
dave2000
> There are a multitude options for chat that provide a better experience
"Better", huh? One of those opinion words. They like it, you don't. Some
people like IRC. It's a funny old world.
"keeping in contact was not a problem in the first place"
A bit simplistic, this. You could have said the same about email when it
replaced snail-mail for most people, most of the time. But now email has been
largely abandoned, thanks to spam and "better" alternatives which let you know
when someone has received, then read, your message. Facebook messenger is
amongst the most popular of these because they've listened to what people
want, and responded.
> and all that's left are games or wanting to show off/snoop on lives.
I don't spend more than a few minutes a week on facebook itself (i only really
got an account for messenger, because just about everyone is on facebook so it
was easier than convincing them to get a google+ account, or installing 4 or 5
other apps) but I understand that the gaming thing is waning. Showing off -
well, if you're talking about people talking about what they do, sharing
holiday photos etc then I guess you could use that description, I suppose. Is
there a way of sharing holiday photos in a way which you personally would not
describe as showing off?
"I would argue it provides a largely negative value if you consider filter
bubbles and their impact on society."
I think very carefully before installing apps or using web services so as to
avoid anything that makes me part of the problem. Nah, just kidding. I've
heard this sort of thing before. You're one of these people who believe that
people all used to read the same newspapers and watch the same tv and got
exposed to differing opinions, and now people can choose their sources they'll
just choose stuff they already agree with, and facebook is part of that? I
think you'd have to go back a long, long way for that to have ever been true,
and even when it was there are endless studies to show that people
reject/ignore stuff they don't agree with, and give sources they do agree with
the benefit of the doubt. And in any event, it's not like many people are
using facebook as their main news source. And even if they did, it sounds like
you're above all that, so your use of facebook would have a positive impact on
some of the sheeple on there, and can help to make the world a better place.
Or you could just use it, like I do, to keep in touch with your mates.
------
sakopov
When I check my Facebook feed, as I do once every 3 months or so, I find
literally nothing from my friends and a whole lot of sponsored posts or posts
from groups I follow. I've shared this with friends and basically confirmed
that Facebook has become this place you don't really have much use for anymore
but you can't really leave because of years of shit you've dumped into it and
connections you've made. So now you just sort of quietly linger, read some
spam and close the tab for a while.
~~~
ec109685
Unfollow those groups then.
------
chillingeffect
>insure ownership
Wow, never thought I'd catch _you_ in a typo, newyorker...
~~~
flavor8
It's deliberately part of the New Yorker's writing style.
[http://www.writersdigest.com/online-editor/ensure-vs-
insure](http://www.writersdigest.com/online-editor/ensure-vs-insure)
------
amelius
I'm still hoping for some open technology to replace FB.
Messaging is a solved problem.
Perhaps we can build something on top of IPFS to share statuses (timeline) and
photos with proper access control.
Groups with restricted access could be an interesting challenge.
~~~
RodericDay
For me it would be as simple as an alternative messenger that followed me
around from page to page. It could be injected like a Greasemonkey script or
browser extension, even.
------
h1fra
FYI: this article does not display at all when using adblocker (with no
message whatsoever)
~~~
flavor8
Works fine with ublock origin.
------
terda12
Could care less. I'll still continue to use Facebook to talk to my high school
friends.
------
nibs
Facebook is the 90s/00s Oracle of social media software. Horrifically evil,
impossible to get rid of and only hipsters use the alternatives. Open source
eventually got enough strength to rival the functionality and everyone who
could jumped ship. If you continue the analogy, the only way to beat Facebook
is for an open protocol like email or something else to gain traction among
Facebook detractors. Because mobile is a walled garden, we are going through
the IBM, Oracle, Microsoft, all-in-one is better phase. I am optimistic that
there is some as-yet unindentified format for open communication that will win
in a way that allows everyone to access it exactly how they want to (like
email). Sure, the most fearful, slow moving among us might stick to the tried
and true. But at least my parents and high school friends will have an account
with the open protocol, allowing me and everyone else not to have to choose
between social inclusion and using Facebook.
~~~
dsacco
_> > Horrifically evil..._
If Facebook and Oracle are "horrifically evil", I'm at a loss for what you'd
call atrocities of war.
I don't mean to pick you out personally, but considering that this is the top
comment in the thread, the anti-BigCo sentiment on Hacker News is getting a
little ridiculous.
~~~
jessewmc
Are atrocities of war the only things that can be called evil? If so, then
clearly nothing Facebook does is evil.
However, Facebook does alot of things that by any other definition are evil.
They perform questionably ethical experiments on their users, prey on users'
ignorance of the data Facebook can see and use, are at the forefront of
manipulative advertising (using fabricated social proof of friends, for
example), and show a continual disregard for ethics that suggests worse in the
future.
This is a company that has essentially tricked people into handing over a
treasure trove of data that is unprecedented in human history, and they're
only starting to figure out how they can take advantage of that. How can any
good come of it?
No one here is comparing this to actual war crimes, but the fact remains that
they are in a position to take advantage of over a billion people. Even if in
a small way, that adds up.
~~~
liamcardenas
OP's point was that using the term "horrifically evil" is horrifically
hyperbolic.
What do you mean by "tricking people" to hand over a treasure trove of data?
Ignoring the many benefits that FB provides (reconnecting with old friends,
easy group communication, meeting people, convenient logins for newer
applications, discovering good content, etc....), what they are doing with
advertising isn't "evil" in any sense.
Facebook is a /free/ service that delivers _targeted_ ads. Would you rather
ads be untargeted? Millions of people benefit from having advertisements
displayed to them showing stuff that they actually want to buy. Also, millions
of businesses benefit from being able to target niche markets due to FB's data
collection.
People WANT to find products that are relevant to them, and so many businesses
have become successful by being able to reach those customers through FB's
platform.
Facebook doesn't actually sell the data to advertisers. They just allow
customers to blindly target demographic groups through their platform. It
doesn't violate people's privacy in the slightest.
Have they done some unethical psychological experiments? Yes. But come on, I
wouldn't call that evil... especially when they do so much good. By that
measure, any university that has been around for 50+ years must be evil too!
> are at the forefront of manipulative advertising (using fabricated social
> proof of friends, for example)
Source?
------
nibs
Yeah, I meant it more along the axis of I'm a hot girl and I can get away with
anything I want evil, than war crimes evil.
~~~
tome
> I'm a hot girl and I can get away with anything I want evil
What?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The Great Jeff Dean, who is he? - webdisrupt
http://www.quora.com/Jeff-Dean/What-are-all-the-Jeff-Dean-facts
======
ahazred8ta
Technically, that should be 405 Method Not Allowed O:-)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Snapchat has reportedly filed confidentially for its massive IPO - coloneltcb
https://techcrunch.com/2016/11/15/snapchat-has-reportedly-filed-confidentially-for-its-massive-ipo/
======
taytus
I'm a professional photographer with about 16K + Instagram followers.
I used snapchat to stream behind the scenes photos and videos and retouching
tutorials, but that was a black box.
Yes, I had comments open and I interacted with my friends and fans, but I
couldn't tag anyone, or hashtags, discoverability is a serious issues in that
platform.
I started using Instagram stories and now I have the same views per snaps that
I had on snapchat plus now I can tag brands/models/makeup artists/ etc.
Instagram is going to EAT snapchat, specially for content creators
discoverability is everything.
~~~
rgbrenner
It definitely sounds like Instagram is a better fit for that. But is that
really Snapchat's core use case?
There's definitely some overlap in uses, but instagram isn't a complete
replacement for Snapchat. And the areas where instagram doesn't cover
snapchat, it seems like are snapchat's primary uses.
~~~
TallGuyShort
Maybe you could describe the core use case? I was nodding my head all through
that comment because I feel like I _should_ like Snapchat, seems like everyone
else does, but after each of several attempts I just uninstalled it because I
would open it and wonder what I should be doing on it. I just didn't find
myself experiencing things that were worth pulling out my phone for but not
worth keeping permanently. And I just couldn't find accounts who posted
anything worthwhile on there often enough.
~~~
nothrabannosir
It's great for a light, whimsical touch. Throw stuff at the wall and see what
sticks. Photos of yourself making a fool of yourself, everywhere, all the
time. Stupid puns, stupid jokes, stupid selfies, stupid stuff which is really
the best stuff, if you ask me :). No ultra well thought out filtered perfect
square omg look at the color chroma jesus on my toast kind of photos. That'd
be a waste of time. Just passing thoughts, fleeting moments. It's so great for
a light touch to keeping up with far away friends and family. You don't need a
reason to send a snap of just your face doing O.O. And it reminds you of each
other. But you wouldn't do that over e-mail or Facebook :P.
~~~
toomuchtodo
Do people really have that much time to create and view junk? Random photos of
whatever? I'm unsure how this is better than SMS/MMS/iMessage, or how it has
more value. Twitter with pics and video in private groups?
~~~
argonaut
Have you been in a new relationship recently? Anecdotally it's pretty common
for a couple to send pictures to one another of their faces through Snapchat -
just nice to see each other and see what each other is doing. This is a
classic Snapchat use case.
~~~
SmellyGeekBoy
My wife and I do this all the time and we've been together 16 years...
------
chollida1
Really interested in learning if Snap is more Facebook or Twitter.
This could be a big litmus test for the tech IPO.
2 things I'm very interested in:
1) If the rumors are correct that they are looking to raise 4 Billion at a
roughly $40 Billion valuation.
If you assume that their absolute pie in the sky max valuation ever is similar
to what facebook is now, roughly 340 Billion, then that's not alot of upside
for investors for a company that probably isn't yet profitable.
2) I've heard that the founders have locked up voting control. I'm always half
watching companies like this to find out just how far they can push wall
street before wall street says no more. Mark Zuckerberg and the Google
founders have done a great job of managing their companies while maintaining
voter control.
I want to see a tech company where the founders own voting control but manage
the company like Twitter, this is not a positive reference.
If Snap get's their rumored IPO price but can't grow revenue then they could
be the poster child for SEC minority shareholder reform, but then again
President Trump has said he wants to remove regulation in the markets so.....
Twitter had a very dedicated and professional audience, journalists,
investors, etc who used their product and they couldn't live up to
expectations.
Snap now has to better than twitter and they'll have to do it by taking
advertising dollars from Google and Facebook. That's a tough fight to get
into.
~~~
photogrammetry
>1) If the rumors are correct that they are looking to raise 4 Billion at a
roughly $40 Billion valuation.
Was under the impression Snapchat was given a $3-5 billion valuation.
I find it hard to accept that Snapchat is worth the same as Tesla and SpaceX
combined.
In other words, is [a 400-employee company whose core product works only on
cell phones to show annoying ads to teenagers as they send each other photos,
and whose annual income is barely $100m] worth the same as [a 15,000-employee
company that produces autonomous electric vehicles, with a net income of a few
billion/year] and [a 5,000-employee aerospace company that builds self-landing
rockets, with income of a few billion/year] combined? I don't bloody think so,
especially given what an asshole Evan Spiegel has been in public lately.
If anything, this is a sign that we're in a soon-to-pop bubble. If Snapchat
ever goes public, it deserves to die the same slow death on the stock market
as Twitter did earlier this year, or a violent pets.com style death.
~~~
bfstein
A company is worth the percentage it captures of the value it creates. You
alluded to it in your comment--Snap has a much lower headcount and an order of
magnitude less operating costs, so if anything it kind of makes sense that
they'd be valued at a relative premium.
Also, you may not like Snapchat, but to say it deserves to die when it both a)
employs real people and b) clearly serves a market need is such a terrible
thing to wish for.
~~~
photogrammetry
I like Snapchat; it's a great service. However, if they keep introducing more
ads while demanding ridiculous valuations, my generation will stop using it.
It would be great for Snapchat and Twitter to be turned into nonprofits like
Wikipedia.
------
johngrefe
So people are super hyped about the Snapchat Spectacles. I get the excitement,
they are Google Glass at a proletariat price, so owning them doesn't make you
a GlassHole. Snapchat is one of the most popular LA Unicorns. Everyone is
waiting for them to go public.
So how did they release their big hardware add on? Limited time vending
machines. They are spinning it as cool, but with XMas, their supposed
capitalization and user base, it's a pretty big warning that these are not
released through a consumer channel. They are probably experiencing major
headwinds keeping them out of commercialization, or a major cash crisis.
I'm want to side with the cash crisis. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I
don't think their balance sheet is going to be very strong, if the
fundamentals were there, Amazon and Best Buy would be distributing the
product. Sure, tell me its a marketing strategy for exclusivity, I agree, it's
great. It should have been done over the summer, moving into store shelves
last week for Xmas sales.
~~~
deepnotderp
My personal hypothesis on this is that they're eating a loss at the price
range right now and are trying to figure out if people are interested in the
spectacles and at what price.
~~~
usrusr
If anything they are creating a whole lot of media buzz, likely to be
perfectly timed ahead of their IPO. The message isn't "we have head mounted
cameras, head mounted cameras will dominate the world", the message is "we are
more than just another entry in the endless stream of icq successors, continue
to expect the unexpected".
This might turn out to be more valuable to founders and VCs than the total
hardware cost of the first few batches of camera sunglasses. For that
function, the final spectacles price could be purely a balancing act between
looking financially responsible to future investors and not deterring
consumers to much, with no relation to hardware cost at all.
~~~
johngrefe
That, is totally great. It doesn't get me excited as a market investor.
Twitter has been living off their hype and not their balance sheet, and
eventually it degrades and erodes a business until it practically isn't one.
My experience is of course entirely anecdotal since I'm so heavily involved in
hardware startups now. As an ancillary to bolster hype, I agree, it's great.
------
slackoverflower
Many people here are underestimating Snapchat. It is the only app where I
enjoy the ads. They are not intrusively at all, most of the time they show up
at the end of a story or between 2 user's stories. They are all video ads
which is the best form of getting attention (atleast for me) and interacting
with the ad is as simple as swiping up on the video. If it is an app install
ad: Swipe up and it brings up the App Store download view. If it's a shopping
ad: swipe up and its bring a web view of the advertiser's ecommerce site. It
is great! Facebook is boring and repetitive, Snapchat is lively and fun to
use. I see it going extremely far but it will be tough to reach Facebook-
scale.
------
brilliantcode
> $250 million and $350 million this year, according to those documents.
That's pretty impressive but is it a sustainable source of income?
Seems like this socio-consumer space is extremely volatile. Facebook & Twitter
was the last platform I interacted with....3 years ago. Haven't even used
instgram, vine, now snap chat. The fact that billions of dollars were spent
buying out instagram, whatsapp, I wonder how facebook is aiming to make back
all that cash expenditure. Linkedin barely gets a pass because it's
enterprisey and Microsoft validated by buying it out.
Take my view with a grain of salt as I consider these social networking type
of websites our generation's "cigarette" -everyone is doing it and nobody
wants to stop and examine it's impact on the quality of your life.
I guess when everybody is around me is so concerned with the avatar version of
themselves online and how they think they are perceived, therein emerges a
divergence of values and attitude towards such mediums and the type of
personalities it generates that leaks into real life (which I steer away
from).
------
Tepix
Could someone explain
a) Why they need so much money? Don't tell me it's to produce some spectacles
b) Why they are worth so much? I get that they have an interesting user base
(young people), but they are having a hard time making money, aren't they?
That $19b WhatsApp purchase hasn't exactly earned a lot of money yet, has it?
It's still a very long bet, especially with Facebook being forbidden to
collect the data now in some countries.
~~~
sfaf
a) To build an ad business capable of handling $100m of ads. You need massive
investments in sales, infrastructure, tools, etc. to build a business like
that
b) They have one of the fastest growing user bases in the social space, their
users spends an astounding amount of time on the app (estimated at 30 minutes
per day), and their user base is the most targeted demographic for
demographics. Also they have literally barely turned on the advertising
machine and their initial forays have already hit a revenue run rate of
$300M+.
So essentially they have a shitload of eyeballs, the eyeballs are growing
massively, their eyeballs spend a lot of time on their app, and advertisers
love those eyeballs. Their business valuation is based on massive potential,
not current revenues, but their advertising efforts already show huge promise.
There is almost no startup with anything close to their engagement, growth,
and monetization potential and the last company that looked like them was
Facebook. Hence, the HYPE.
~~~
monkmartinez
To your point b... so it's all about bubbles? A race for eyeballs before they
disappear to the next "new, cool" thing?
Because advertising isn't working for the people that sell "things." If social
networks are supposed to create spending/buying in retail (both online and
meatspace) they are not doing a very good job. Google: Retail sales 2016.
~~~
avn2109
Fair point re: connection to the actual economy. But remember - the point of
advertising is mostly not to _increase_ sales overall, it's to _steal_ sales
from your competition in a zero sum game.
------
kevando
Maybe I'm alone here, but I love the way Evan and Snapchat, er Snap,
communicate as a company. They are incredibly tight lipped, but also very
honest and blunt. They've talked about this IPO for years, and made no secret
about becoming a camera company.
~~~
pimlottc
On the other hand, I find it extremely annoying how Team Snapchat routinely
sends elaborately animated pre-prepared snaps that are impossible to make in
the official app. Eat your own dogfood, guys!
~~~
pritianka
I agree with you on this one. It feels unfair!
------
samfisher83
I realized that facebook had made it when old people started using it, and I
don't mean silicon valley old, but like for real old. Snapchat hasn't hit that
threshold yet. It could be the next myspace of facebook, but at 40 billion
there is a plenty of upside.
------
nihonde
I don't follow the numbers on Snap, but my personal experience is that Snow is
eating their share in Asia. You can build a big business without Asia, but it
won't be enough to keep The Street happy. This IPO feels like a liquidation
for investors who see the end of the road ahead for Snap.
------
beedogs
Anyone who gets in on this IPO is going to know what pain feels like. How can
a company that doesn't make any money go public in good faith?
------
pplperson
Maybe someone can enlighten me. I read awhile back (when the rumors just
started) that a company can not engage in advertising/marketing in the pre-IPO
period. If that's the case I assume the timing of Spectacles release is a way
around that?
~~~
carlosdp
They cannot make large product announcements or changes in the "quiet period"
between when the IPO is publically filed and when it goes live. This is a
rumor of a private filing, not the public filing, so yes Spectacles are well
in the clear. You can make large announcements right up till the day the IPO
is published on the SEC website.
This is because you are not supposed to solicit people to buy your shares
before it goes public.
------
ankurdhama
It is amazing that the best business model of current era is - Build something
that allows people to feed their ego (ahem social activity ahem) and sell ads,
simple :)
------
millettjon
Just an anecdote but my kids (2 10 year olds in Chile) use Instagram and
Snapchat about the same. They use Whatsapp and Musically several times more
frequently.
------
shaunrussell
Anecdotal, but as a casual snapchat user I've noticed a significant 50%+ drop
in activity by my friends + peers since Instagram launched stories. I use to
sign in and have 20+ stories to watch, this morning it is 4.
I feel like Snapchat sees the writing on the wall, and this is their chance
for everyone to cash out.
------
Apocryphon
To anyone on HN (or elsewhere) who doesn't get Snapchat, revisit Justin Kan's
explanation:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10859860](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10859860)
~~~
patorjk
Looks like the blog post linked in that thread now gives a 404.
~~~
__derek__
Here's the correct URL: [https://justinkan.com/why-i-love-
snapchat-23d31ea87d3c](https://justinkan.com/why-i-love-snapchat-23d31ea87d3c)
------
moron4hire
I do not understand the value of Snapchat as a social network _at all_ , and I
use it on a daily basis.
There's no way to reshare anything, which means the only way you can find
people is through other channels external to Snapchat. And they make it really
hard to add someone that isn't in your immediate vicinity with their logo
ready to snap. This seems ludicrous to me. How can a social networking app not
try to capture all of the activity surrounding it? How can a social networking
app not do everything it can to encourage people to build their network?
------
WheelsAtLarge
Can some one tell me why they use "confidentially"? When they have been
talking about this for months and everyone in the tech/social business knows
about it.
I guess it's confidential since they didn't blast fireworks and cannons.
Anyhow, I say that they will soon(if not now) be known as the cool social
network while Facebook will live as the old but reliable techie social network
, similar to the Apple/Microsoft delineation.
~~~
lesdeuxmagots
Its a type of filing. Confidentially means that we cannot go so EDGAR and look
up the filing right now, and they will not need to disclose the documents
publicly until very close to the actual IPO. This is a relatively new type of
filing that was introduced in the JOBS act, designed to encourage emerging
businesses to go public. You can read about the specifics here:
[https://www.sec.gov/divisions/corpfin/guidance/cfjumpstartfa...](https://www.sec.gov/divisions/corpfin/guidance/cfjumpstartfaq.htm)
Normally, if the company does not qualify for confidential filing, we would be
able to go and see the draft S-1 on EDGAR 6 - 9 months in advance of the
actual IPO.
~~~
WheelsAtLarge
Thanks, very informative.
------
richardlblair
A lot of good points in this thread.
I do want to point out that the investment market is hot. That likely plays
into their decision. Why wait when you know you can get a great valuation now,
and there is a chance the market could cool.
------
foota
I use snapchat a lot to communicate and follow friends. I think their
difficulty in monetization will be from not being able to target ads as
effectively as Facebook or Google can.
------
SN76477
I do not think closed systems have much of a future. They may be hot now, they
are not going to last.
------
tehwebguy
If you have a chance to buy Spectacles go for it. They are super cool.
Finally a way to snap while I'm grilling fried rice! Seriously, this solves a
problem for me: [https://youtu.be/0fdVJLB-TM0](https://youtu.be/0fdVJLB-TM0)
------
irishcule
When are people expecting this IPO to happen? Early 2017?
------
ghostbunnies
It's not so _confidential_ anymore, is it?
------
manishsharan
Yet another platform to tickle our narcissism and voyeurism. The fact that
this kind of innovation is so lucrative make me despair.
And also, get off my lawn !!
~~~
Apocryphon
At least you can't create news filter bubbles or troll with Snapchat.
~~~
st3v3r
Maybe that's why it's so popular. Most people are fed up with trolling.
------
ohstopitu
A lot of people seem to question Snapchat's vision and profitability (even in
this thread) especially with such a high evaluation. I thought I'd take a stab
at it (all speculation based by current trends).
So Snapchat needs to be broken down into 3 key components:
1\. Users/Growth
2\. Business
3\. Tech
So let's look into each...
1\. Users/Growth:
Snapchat is growing rapidly (~150 million active users[0]) and seems to know
how to generate hype using various tactics (like the Spectacles for
example...instead of just selling it, they appear at specific places at
specific times, similar to timed filters and stories). Furthermore, they don't
seem to mind experimenting - I had recently seen rumors floating around of
Snapchat getting into the drone game too - based on some of their recently
open positions). They seems to have gotten a tight grasp at the younger-ish
market (14 - 30ish?) and either they'll continue to be hip and keep attracting
that age group or they'll grow with their current userbase. Eitherway, the
userbase is (very) loyal and hooked (~30 mins/day of usage [1]).
2\. Business
Based on 1, we know Snapchat is growing and it's got a loyal base, which means
they are a great place to advertise. As of right now, it appears that only the
"big" players have the access to advertise their content effectively - movie
filters, stories etc. (and Snapchat seems to be making a lot of revenue from
just this alone - ~ $350 million [0]). But from this subset, it can be seen
that Snapchat is an effective medium for the current demographic (they are
young, generally willing to spend and do or will grow up to have expendable
income to spend).
Smaller players (those who can't afford filters and stories) generally pay
Snapchat celebrities to advertise to their large(-ish) user base but given
Snapchat's intentions (for IPO), that could change pretty soon.
To add to the above, Snapchat seems to be poised to move into the physical-
virtual (augmented) ads space too, with geo filters. (Given their recent
release of Spectacles, I'd say it'd be trivial to have something along the
lines of Google Beacons/iBeacons - providing hyper local filters, discounts
and so on. Furthermore, this can easily expand/integrate into a marketplace,
providing even more revenue.
3\. Tech
If you have noticed, they have gotten their users to use AR (filters, geo-
filters, Spectacles) without the "geekiness" involved that others currently
involve. (yes, Hololens is still a lot geeky, pricer and a extra device than a
iPhone) They appear have stumbled onto great ideas, but I have a feeling that
it's highly calculated (I could be wrong) and they seem to have an idea /
vision of what their future is or where they want to head.
Current Competition (Subjective):
Facebook seems to be intent on trying to capture the Snapchat market - most
recently with Instagram Stories. In my opinion, Instagram Stories is not
exactly similar but close enough. I feel like it'd not take off as much as
Snapchat (but it does not have to) as much (I'd probably eat my words later),
because it's easier to track users (I know this is what marketers are looking
for, but from a user's perspective - It does not feel natural, feel a bit more
judged and overall just like a nice facebook for photos. It's great if you
want to grow a userbase and so on but you can do so on Snapchat too.
My take:
I feel that Snapchat for companies/marketers/users who are looking for more,
require a change of perspective. Similar to how it took everyone to get used
to the Internet, Social Media etc., it will take a while to get used to
Snapchat. Furthermore, there is a lack of tooling around Snapchat which has
made matters worse. That said, those who can grasp this and figure it
out...they are in for a treat.
Obviously, what I've written above is my take on Snapchat (both as a user and
as a someone who loves technology). It's completely arm-chaired CEO talk but
I'm interested in what people have to say/think about it.
[0] [https://techcrunch.com/2016/11/15/snapchat-has-reportedly-
fi...](https://techcrunch.com/2016/11/15/snapchat-has-reportedly-filed-
confidentially-for-its-massive-ipo/)
[1] [http://www.businessinsider.com/how-much-time-people-spend-
on...](http://www.businessinsider.com/how-much-time-people-spend-on-
snapchat-2016-3)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
NSA Chief: Terrorists Using Leaked Info [video] - wikiburner
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/21134540/vp=52539269�
======
jacquesm
If there is one thing these leaks have done then it is to register in the mind
of the general public that these institutions are not just benign clubs of
mathematicians that boldly crack evildoer codes that no man has cracked before
but that they are collecting any kind of data they can get their hands on,
including yours, to decide later on if it was useful or not.
The fact that that alone and the potential consequences are now (slowly)
sinking in to the public consciousness made these leaks more than worth it.
That debate needs to be had and it needs to be had in the open, the hypocrisy
of politicians (Merkel comes to mind) when they address the subject is
telling.
That 'terrorists' (who are these guys anyway, didn't you mean criminals) are
using the leaked info is a statement of fact which is hard to falsify
(terrorists won't own up to it) and probably even harder to prove so it should
carry very little or no weight at all.
~~~
dhimes
_in the mind of the general public_
I wish this was true. I don't think it's there yet. I virtually hear nobody
outside of tech talking about it. It's really quite remarkable.
~~~
lukifer
It's the Big Lie phenomenon at work. Someone revealing a specific embarassing
private email between two law-abiding citizens? That would be a story. But
reading and processing every email is just too big to contemplate, and to
those who don't know how databases work, I'm sure that it seems impossible.
Surely no one could or would do that, right?
I'll tell you what, though: young people are absolutely paying attention.
~~~
throwit1979
Quite relevant to your post, although image memes are generally frowned upon
by HN: [http://i.imgur.com/mW0YHRK.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/mW0YHRK.jpg)
------
downandout
This is nothing more than a combination of fear mongering and pouting over the
loss of the secrecy that their little fiefdom once enjoyed. These are
government servants at their worst.
~~~
bittired
Well, doubting that leaks of information won't have a negative impact on our
security is pretty obtuse also. I'm not afraid, but I also wouldn't be
surprised if we have a greater number of terrorist attacks in the coming
years. It's in their interest to complain for multiple reasons.
~~~
downandout
Snowden merely confirmed a widely held suspicion that the feds are recording
and analyzing most modern communications. The notion that terrorists didn't
already assume this and use encryption online and burner cell phones is
dubious to me. If anything, Snowden may have stopped some would-be terrorists
by showing them just how many ways there are for them to get caught.
~~~
BWStearns
There's also another layer to this: The terrorists that actually exist are not
10 feet tall and not all geniuses. If I told some of my non-technologically
oriented friends how to encrypt and anonymize their communications, they
couldn't do it. If I went one step further and configured their computers and
explained to them how to use it, they would probably still leak information by
misusing it.
Are the terrorists changing their tactics? Probably. Is it going to do them
any good? Unlikely.
------
beedogs
I like that he covers his ass by saying "terrorists _and other groups_ " have
been changing their habits. "Other groups" probably means stuff like Occupy,
animal welfare activists, other sorts of scary 'fringe' groups, and probably
rank-and-file citizens too, but it's a useful way to bulk up his claim a
little more.
~~~
bjornsing
I think he's specifically referring to the HN community there. ;)
------
chao-
The majority of my HN comments are multi-paragraph, needlessly thought-out
statements. But on this one all I can muster is:
_Boo Fucking Hoo._
~~~
foobarbazqux
Pithy one-liners are much more fun.
------
anonymoushn
"You have seen concrete proof that maybe places where you used to be able to
listen to are now silent?"
"We have concrete proof that terrorist groups and others are taking action,
making changes, and it's gonna make our job tougher."
Although the lead-in mentions that intelligence collection has been hindered
(in the past tense), Keith Alexander is only willing to say that it will be
hindered in the future.
~~~
danenania
Because clearly our entire legal framework should be designed around making
the NSA's job easier. Why not put surveillance cameras in everyone's houses?
Why not implant everyone with tracking chips? Why not have TSA agents look up
our assholes with a flashlight at airport security? All these things would
certainly make the country safer.
Just as concerning as the programs themselves are these kinds of idiotic
arguments that their proponents make to justify them. I'm not hugely keen on
trusting someone who can't avoid extremely simplistic logical fallacies in his
reasoning to oversee the surveillance of all humanity.
~~~
w_t_payne
Don't joke about it. This sort of thing is all to plausible. Think about the
data collected by fitness-tracking devices. What about when these are mandated
by your insurance provider? After all, some car insurance companies are
already promoting the use of tracking devices in your car. There are all sorts
of ways that we can be induced to buy and install the infrastructure that
facilitates an Orwellian police state. This book does a good job of laying out
how it could (all to plausibly) come about:
[http://amzn.com/1841499390](http://amzn.com/1841499390)
~~~
knowaveragejoe
Provider-issued set top boxes and routers are scarier, IMO.
~~~
dpcx
In what way?
~~~
knowaveragejoe
As the other reply said, the provider has remote access to those devices. That
amounts to them having a fully functional computer(or 2 or 3) replete with
wireless radios and other goodies in your house(at least, in theory).
------
scrrr
Ah, the liars are releasing a new statement. Very interesting. And their job
is tougher now? Interesting. How did they ever fight criminals and terrorists
before mass surveillance! Unimaginable.
~~~
droopyEyelids
I liked how he said 'No one can listen to all the phone calls and read all the
emails, the volume is simply too much!' neatly side stepping the fact that a
computer is not a person.
~~~
Roboprog
Exactly, as if they couldn't _store_ them.
Maybe, just maybe, enough lay people are used to using "Google" to query a
mountain of crap (the internet) to find a few interesting nuggets that they
realize the government could do the same.
Step 2: getting people to realize how badly this can go when correlation =
causation, and _you_ are guilty by association.
------
headShrinker
Leave it to NBC News to cover the NSA's BS stance, as well as the the programs
legality issue, yet completely zone out about the programs effectiveness,
expense, expanse, or actually question the NSA chief's statement, 'it is
impossible to listen to phone calls, and read all emails due to their shear
number'. But they are recording them all... which is the problem!
------
dantheman
Is he merely telling us the least untruthful statement? I mean how can anyone
trust a word he says?
------
w_t_payne
Since the definition of "terrorism" has been watered down to the point where
it can mean almost anything, a "terrorist" can therefore be almost anyone ..
or, to be a little kinder to our lords and masters, the number of people to
whom the term "terrorist" can potentially be applied has increased
dramatically.
If enough people have changed their behaviour as a result of the surveillance
/ nascent police-state scandal, then this statement is statistically
plausible, so I am not calling out "B.S." just yet - although the usual
warnings about rampant language-lawyering apply as per normal.
------
joelrunyon
"Not to hide it from you. But to hide it from those AMONG you who are trying
to kill you."
Oh, well that makes me feel safe...
~~~
_sabe_
Haven't you seen them? I hear they're everywhere.
------
perlpimp
Now NSA is terrorizing American public, shame on them! or wait they are
shameless. SAD.
------
alan_cx
Sorry to be cynical and grumpy, but.....
Careful folks, come high karma folks here will accuses you of trite anarchy
for these comments.
------
sudonim
Nice fearmongering:
_" The reason we use secrecy is not to hide it from the american people, not
to hide it from you, but to hide it from those who walk among you who are
trying to kill you."_
... well in that case, please take my rights and the rights of my neighbors if
it gives me a little temporary security.
------
thejteam
This illustrates nicely the problem that I have with the way Manning and
Snowden went about leaking their information. It seems that they grabbed a
bunch of information and sent it to reporters without really thinking what
information ought to be released. Do I think that the existence of the NSA
spying programs should be public knowledge? Yes. Do I think that I really have
a need to know the exact methods they use to implement these programs? No.
That part is not necessary for us to make an informed decision and whether or
not the programs should exist.
~~~
dmd
Manning, probably. Snowden? Have you been paying _any_ attention at all? It's
been extremely clear that he (and the Guardian) have been _extremely_
conservative in what they've released and have spent enormous effort on making
sure it doesn't contain information that would harm anyone or anything other
than the reputation of the US government.
~~~
thejteam
In what has been publicly released, I agree with you. I'm also sure he has a
lot of information on his pen drive that is being circulated around back
channels, whether he really wanted it to or not.
~~~
jessaustin
You're sure, I'm not sure. Do you have anything to back up your statement?
------
delinka
Mods: Can we get a (vidoe) in the title?
------
bartl
What is this supposed to link to? What I see is "As civil war rages on in
Syria, humanitarian suffering is reaching new catastrophic levels."
~~~
VLM
Probably a "hidden" message about where this is leading America to...
------
ynniv
Billions of documents sounds like a lot to people who aren't programmers!
------
forgotAgain
Hopefully Congress does as well.
------
unclebucknasty
> _The reason we use secrecy is not to hide it from the American people. But,
> to hide it from those who walk among you who want to kill you._
Fear-monger much? What can you _not_ justify with this line of reasoning?
"Well, we're not herding you all up into concentration camps because of
anything you've done innocent Americans. We're putting you all there because
of the evil Americans who walk among you."
If we buy the mindset that the "evil-doers" are indistinguishable from
innocent Americans, then we will allow virtually anything.
And, is this overt paranoia inducement even remotely justified? I mean,
really, what percentage of the so-called terrorists are "other Americans that
walk among us"? For that matter, how many "terrorists" are really out there?
But, this is a subtle, insidious, and very purposeful shift. It's an example
of how they've moved the goalposts and are increasingly morphing these
"terrorist-tools" into a hyper-surveillance program to keep tabs on all
Americans. There was a time when they'd have to justify their actions and
abide by Constitutional protections by pointing to foreign involvement in
monitored communications. The line was that they are not monitoring us, as
much as they are monitoring those foreigners who happened to be talking to us.
Now, he's allowing that Americans are specifically being targeted
domestically, but that it must be done because the terrorists "walk among us".
Also love the way the story frames the NSA activity as more benign and highly
targeted:
_" [a program that] gathers data on numbers dialed and length of calls,
though not call content, and another that allows the NSA to monitor overseas
e-mails and Internet sites used by suspected terrorists."_
Makes it sound highly targeted and less invasive to innocent Americans. But,
we've already learned how they get call content, that the distinction between
foreign and domestic communication is less meaningful than we originally
thought, and other details that go beyond the benign characterization of the
story. This story seems to be stuck in the days before so many more
revelations came out.
They left out all but the "This message brought to you by the NSA."
~~~
swalkergibson
> How many "terrorists" are really out there?
I was intrigued by this question and wondered the same. I created this Google
spreadsheet
([https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhTjVTjz9GpldFJ...](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhTjVTjz9GpldFJoYUVEMjJ1bHI2NFh5V3YxWUwzR3c#gid=0))
with the estimated strength of all groups listed here:
[http://www.state.gov/j/ct/rls/crt/2011/195553.htm#ano](http://www.state.gov/j/ct/rls/crt/2011/195553.htm#ano).
As of 2011, it would appear that the US government has calculated there are
approximately 50,000-100,000 terrorists worldwide. I did not include the names
of the groups in the spreadsheet, but I went top-to-bottom through the list
and recorded the "Strength" of each group and put it into a cell.
Unfortunately, the estimates are almost entirely vague and nebulous (probably
intentionally), so I was very generous in my calculations. The spreadsheet is
world editable, so I invite any contributions.
For scale, according to Wikipedia and this site:
[http://www.citypopulation.de/USA-
California.html](http://www.citypopulation.de/USA-California.html), all
terrorists in the world identified by the US government would fit in a city
between the size of Novato, CA (50K population) and Boulder, CO (100K
population).
According to the DoD budget here
([http://comptroller.defense.gov/defbudget/fy2014/FY2014_Budge...](http://comptroller.defense.gov/defbudget/fy2014/FY2014_Budget_Request_Overview_Book.pdf))
we have spent $1.5 trillion dollars on "Overseas Contingency Operations" since
FY2001. Taking that data into account, we have spent $17 million for every
single known terrorist in the world since 2001, at a rate of $1.2 million per
year (14 years).
According to this:
[http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66](http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66)
we spend $10,694 per year on pupils in the US public education system.
Are there any people out there who happen to know off-hand how much money the
French government spends per person on healthcare?
------
squozzer
The Enlightenment. Born 1632, died 2013. Rest in peace.
~~~
Roboprog
Died 2001, you mean. At least in the U.S.
(Sometimes, I think the U.S. started to commit suicide in 1981, though, with
the advent of Reaganism, but that's a slightly different discussion)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The merger of Dell and EMC stems from the rise of cloud computing - jimsojim
http://www.economist.com/news/business/21673523-clouded-marriage-merger-dell-and-emc-more-proof-it-industry-shifting
======
motdiem
Although this merger seems to be mostly about infrastructure, I wonder how it
will impact applications groups (documentum, captiva, etc) within the
organization - there doesn't really seem to be a well defined place for them
(disclosure - I've spent most of my career competing with documentum, but I'm
not anymore - I'm genuinely interested to see where they end up)
~~~
chris_wot
I'd say they are going to find it very difficult.
------
ised
"The next step... is to merge the different components by using basic
computers and have software turn it into servers, storage devices or routers
as needed."
This statement is rather enticing because I have been executing this exact
process for years using one of the free, open source kernel/userland options
available for download. The "OS" is kept small and runs entirely in RAM. Works
well enough for my purposes.
It is also interesting to juxtapose this statement against the usual negative
comments on HN anytime the discussion turns to building home routers using
"basic computers".
But maybe the meaning of "basic computers" by the journalist here is not what
I think it is.
~~~
boulos
In this context, "basic computers" means Commodity/Off The Shelf. Instead of
buying some high-end "enterprise" server from Sun / HP / Dell, using a regular
cheap (enough) box and lots of them. This started with servers, but you now
see standard x86 boxes being turned into high-speed packet processors
("routers") instead of paying someone like Cisco $15k for a switch.
------
chris_wot
Well it was nice knowing all you Dell employees!
They tried this before with Ionix (ugh) and it was an unmitigated disaster. At
the same time they bought Spring, and had absolutely no idea what to do with
it, so they spun it off. Anyone who says that Joe Tucci has a good track
record of acquiring companies and letting them go about their business doesn't
know what they are talking about.
~~~
corin_
Tucci is being acquired, not acquiring Dell. Maybe your view still stands
despite that - I don't have any views on Tucci personally (I know nothing
about his track record).
~~~
venomsnake
That depends. I have seen a some acquisitions where the CEO of public company
wants to go private and delist and a lot smaller firm buys him out using debt.
Not on such scale though.
------
dberg
Not sure i get the cloud play here, are they trying to cater to people
building their own private clouds, or are they planning to start from scratch
and build an AWS competitor ?
Either plan seems like a poor one for 67B.
~~~
boulos
The former: private cloud all from one shop. Don't forget that Cloud Foundry
is sitting right there next to them ;).
------
mogungor
Yet another cloud giant. The competition is over that direction. However, this
is more to the Capex side. IBM moves to the services, Google and MS, as well.
We will see how it will become.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Money Creation in the Modern Economy (2014) [pdf] - rfreytag
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/quarterlybulletin/2014/qb14q102.pdf
======
cs702
IMHO, the easiest way for an engineer to understand "money" is as a _network
of debits and credits_.
Forget theory, ideology, and politics for a moment. Let's focus on the
mechanics of how things work.
When a bank lends money to a company, the bank and the company book
corresponding accounting entries and money is created "out of thin air." (The
bank is required to hold a minimum reserve balance, which they can borrow as
needed from others in the financial system, or from a central bank).
When a central bank (like the Federal Reserve or the Bank of England) lends
money to a bank, the central bank and the bank book corresponding accounting
entries and money is created "out of thin air." Central banks literally click
a button and create accounting entries.
When _you_ borrow money from a bank, the bank books the corresponding
accounting entries, and you probably won't record anything on an accounting
program -- but your bank will keep track of all balances, to the cent.
When a borrower cannot pay back a loan from a bank, the bank writes off the
loan balance, and reduces the borrower's liability by an equal amount.
The balance you have on your bank account is a liability on your bank's
accounting books.
The balance on your credit card is an asset on your credit card company's
accounting books.
When you buy something and pay with a check or a debit card, the financial
system records all the necessary accounting transactions to update everyone's
debit and credit balances.
The dollar bills you hold in your wallet are nothing less than 'certificates'
indicating that the US government has a liability of the amount shown on those
dollar bills, payable to the holder of those dollar bills.
In our modern economic system, the easiest way to understand money is as a
global, mostly electronic network of accounting debits and credits, with
balances varying as people conduct transactions.
For every debit there is an equal credit, and vice versa, so globally, total
debit balances are _always_ equal to total credit balances, and total debit
transactions are _always_ equal to total credit transactions.
Double-entry bookkeeping all the way down.
It is really quite something to behold.
~~~
VT_Drew
>The dollar bills you hold in your wallet are nothing less than 'certificates'
indicating that the US government has a liability of the amount shown on those
dollar bills, payable to the holder of those dollar bills.
Except dollars are no longer backed by anything. So the governments liability
is nothing. What are they going to do trade you a dollar for a dollar? It is
literally just paper. It is a stretch to still think of it as a 'certificate'.
~~~
ellius
Edward Harrison has good piece on this and the concept of "currency
revulsion":
[https://www.creditwritedowns.com/2011/10/currency-
revulsion-...](https://www.creditwritedowns.com/2011/10/currency-
revulsion-2.html)
------
gedy
This reminds me of one problem I have with people and politicians when
discussing hot-button "income inequality" topics: Many people act as if the
world is still on the gold-standard, and if this person has more, they took it
from those who have less, etc in a zero-sum game. The real problem is not that
simple though, and money being created and diluted in a way that makes
simplistic solutions like "capping CEO pay" and setting living wages do not
target the people and systems outside this who are the real problem.
~~~
davidw
"The economy is not a zero-sum game" is something a _lot_ of people don't seem
to get.
~~~
jsprogrammer
For any given period of time, the game is zero-sum.
For example, if there is one apple, either you can have it, or I can have it.
Where is the non-zero-sum game?
~~~
davidw
You could plant an apple tree. That's definitely not zero-sum. After that you
could could invent better ways to ship apples so that more people can enjoy
them. Or cross breed them to provide different types of apples for different
uses and tastes. You could make cider from the leftover apples instead of
throwing them away, so that less is wasted. In other words, there are tons of
ways to make better use of what we have, or create new things. The economy is
not zero-sum.
PG has a nice essay that explains this:
[http://paulgraham.com/wealth.html](http://paulgraham.com/wealth.html) \- in
particular "the pie fallacy".
You might be referring to the 'rivalry' of goods:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivalry_(economics)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivalry_\(economics\))
\- but that's for one good at one time, not for the economy as a whole.
~~~
jsprogrammer
Transplanting an apple tree doesn't add more apples, it just produces apples
somewhere else. Planting apple seeds doesn't really produce more apples
either, you need to have an already available tree that you can graft apple
tree cuttings onto.
Even if you do get a brand new apple tree, it still takes some amount of time
(at least a year, though likely much more) before you get any additional
apples. So, the game 15 years from now may have more apples available, but the
current game has a finite amount of apples available to the participants.
~~~
davidw
I don't think you understand what it means in the sense of economics then.
It is not "all the available goods in one precise instant of time". It's how
people interact in the economy over time.
Compare and contrast the creation of an apple orchard with, say, going on a
raid to the neighboring village's apple orchard, stealing all their apples,
and cutting down all their trees. That's a negative-sum game. Looking at the
entire economy, everyone is poorer, even if the raiders temporarily get some
more apples. They haven't created any wealth, though; they've destroyed it.
Since labor is not instantaneous - planting a crop and waiting for it to grow
takes time - writing code takes time - building a car takes time - economists
talk about those interactions as non zero-sum. The total amount of goods at
any one instant in time is some other measure.
~~~
jsprogrammer
So, you are saying that even though the current game is zero-sum, at some
future point in time, we can consider it not zero-sum?
How does this not violate several laws of conservation?
~~~
davidw
No, I'm saying you're very confused about the generally accepted meanings of
those terms in economics.
The very meaning of 'game' implies one or more moves by each player.
A photo of a chess board does not a chess game make, in other words.
> How does this not violate several laws of conservation?
That's physics, not economics. We're not talking about the total mass or
energy or something in a system. Physics does not care if an apple tree
produces apples for people to eat; people do.
~~~
jsprogrammer
Did economics somehow escape physics? The economy is exactly the transference
of mass and energy in a system. The size of the game may increase over time,
but that doesn't mean the sum of all transactions is not still 0.
Maybe you could supply a definition of what you are talking about?
------
RobertoG
This is part of what Modern Monetary Theory has been explaining but it's
always hidden in the public discourse.
The consequences of what money is in modern economies, are not well understood
or accepted. I suspect that the possibilities that this open scare a lot of
powerful people.
If somebody want to dig further in the rabbit hole, I recommend:
[http://moslereconomics.com/wp-
content/powerpoints/7DIF.pdf](http://moslereconomics.com/wp-
content/powerpoints/7DIF.pdf) (this one is a pdf)
[http://neweconomicperspectives.org/modern-monetary-theory-
pr...](http://neweconomicperspectives.org/modern-monetary-theory-primer.html)
~~~
flurben
MMT is simultaneously
a) a "heterodox" theory that mainstream economists don't consider entirely
legitimate, and
b) precisely how central banks in the US and UK describe their own routine
monetary operations.
I still struggle to understand how and why these statements can both be true.
~~~
RobertoG
Yes. I also find that funny.
And MMT has another interesting property: when you take the time to learn a
little, it makes a lot of sense.
They have been always saying how money is really created, now the Bank of
England confirm it, but we should keep believing the text books from the gold
standard era I suppose.
~~~
bubbleRefuge
Its because unfortunately politicians and the financial press cannot touch it.
Its too easy for the public to draw comparisons between household budget
constraints and currency issuer budget constraints (which need not exist). FUD
sells.
------
drostie
So if you've never taken an economics class, here's the basic craziness that
crucially underpins our modern economy:
There is a central bank sitting in the middle of most modern economies, and it
is a bank-for-banks: they either borrow from it or deposit into it. It sets an
all-important interest rate: this rate is the rate-of-return that those other
banks will compare possible loans to, when saying 'is it worth it to loan to
this person, or should I just put my money in the central bank?' \-- if you
lower this rate, then presumably banks make more loans, stimulating the
economy; if you raise this rate, then presumably banks make fewer, stifling
the economy. The hope is not that different from storing up food in years of
plenty in order to weather years of famine; during a recession you lower the
interest rate, but afterwards in the upswing you raise it again.
When you deposit money in a bank, it is not required to hold onto all of it
and keep it safe. Instead it usually takes a chunk of that money and promises
it as a loan to someone else, who will hopefully in the end pay them more in
interest than they're paying you, enough more that the difference is better
than just shoving the money in the central bank.
When it makes this loan, that comes in the form of saying "I still owe you $x,
and now I also owe this other person $y." So the true money stored by the bank
is still only $x, but the money now in circulation in the economy -- in the
sense that there's the illusion of people having it, _which is the only sense
that money exists anyway_ \-- is $x + $y. If that other person needs to
immediately cash out a quantity of dollar bills, then $y < $x, so the bank can
comfortably do that. If you both try to cash out at the same time, there is an
obvious problem (the bank has failed!), but remember that this is a sort of
insurance scheme of "divide that risk among lots of people and trust that
their decisions follow a binomial distribution" \-- in reality there is some
proportion p of a lot of individuals who collectively need to withdraw in
order for the bank to fail. Furthermore when this happens the federal
government may declare the bank "too big to fail" and funnel tax money into
it, to keep it going.
This PDF is arguing that the above explanation is precise in ways that many
economics textbooks are loose; notice that the extra value has nothing, for
example, to do with _your putting the money into the bank_. Why? Because
suppose you spent that on a new car: your car dealership that you're buying
from has an account with this bank (or some other bank; the economy
collectively includes all of them after all) and they take this amount of
money and put it in the bank! So that $x is getting deposited somewhere,
assuming that you do not take it out of circulation yourself (in which case,
it doesn't help mediate your purchasing of goods and services, so is it
_really_ money?). Modern textbooks omit this and refer instead to the banks as
a "money multiplier" where "there is $100 deposited at first, the bank saves
20% of its deposits, it loans out $80 which gets immediately spent hence re-
deposited in some similar bank, so that bank saves $16 and loans out $64 which
similarly gets re-deposited, saving $13 and loaning out $51, at this point the
economy has nominally $100 + $80 + $64 + $51 = $295, so we've multiplied the
amount of money deposited into the economy by a factor of ~3x, and if you
continue the progression out to infinity you find that this multiplier
approaches 1/(20%) = 1/0.2 = 5." The problem with this thinking is that
there's nobody in the economy who comes into this system at that crucial step
0 -- you got your money from the bank account of your employer or from a loan
from some other bank. So, from your perspective, there's kind of nothing to
multiply.
If that makes you feel breathlessly like everything is an illusion resting on
an insane Ponzi scheme, that's mostly correct and you should feel all of that.
You can spend hours thinking about "what _is_ money, I mean _really_?" and if
you're a founder-mentality you might even spend years on this wondering if
there's an opportunity for disruption at an epic scale somewhere therein.
Probably the best way to understand money is still the engineer's, "I do
something that someone finds useful, so they give me points in this augmented-
reality game where the rules force them to give those points out of their own
personal stash. As long as we collectively agree that useful things are
happening, those points have some form of meaning as a way to symbolically
trade hypothetical goods and services. When we lose this collective confidence
then the points will no longer matter to us."
~~~
mtanski
> Probably the best way to understand money is still the engineer's, "I do
> something that someone finds useful, so they give me points in this
> augmented-reality game where the rules force them to give those points out
> of their own personal stash. As long as we collectively agree that useful
> things are happening, those points have some form of meaning as a way to
> symbolically trade hypothetical goods and services. When we lose this
> collective confidence then the points will no longer matter to us."
Money is essentially a distributed IOU. It enables people to trade goods and
services for IOUs. The IOUs are then exchangeable for other good and services
at a later time. Obviously there's more complications then that but that's the
general thing.
Like if write code for a living and want a taco, the taco vendor doesn't want
your code. Instead you sell your services (labor) to somebody who values that
who gives you IOUs in return. Then you take those IOUs and you cash them for a
taco or you can combine them with other IOUs you already have for bigger items
like a car or a house.
Then you can do all sorts of abstract things with your IOUs such as hold onto
them, or lend them out (to somebody who needs a bunch of IOUs at a time and
will pay them back slowly) or convert them to other kinds of synthetic IOUs
(stocks). Then later on these other kinds of IOUs get covered/replayed back as
money IOUs that you go buy your other tacos with.
And lets not even get to IOU appreciation or deflation.
~~~
sorokod
> Money is essentially a distributed IOU
Isn't this completely circular? If money is IOU, what is it that is being
Owned?
~~~
mtanski
Circular and self reinforcing. Why does anything have value, because people
believe it does ("Backed by the full faith and credit of the United States").
If you step back a bit to the meta IOU level. There's a fixed (but changing
all the time) amount of IOUs in circulation... and since you can transfer IOUs
you end up with ownership.
You can get more meta here, and say what is ownership? Ownership is really not
a natural / physical law. Instead it's a series of laws and social conversion
that we created and agreed upon. Why our brains made us do that is prob a good
question of evolutionary biologist who study primates (since some can be
thought to use money).
------
smaddox
For those interested in this topic, I highly recommend:
1) Steve Keen's blog \-
[http://debtdeflation.com/blogs/](http://debtdeflation.com/blogs/)
2) Debt: the first 5000 years \-
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt:_The_First_5000_Years](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt:_The_First_5000_Years)
------
green_spun
Ray Dalio's "How the Economic Machine Works in 30 Minutes"
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHe0bXAIuk0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHe0bXAIuk0)
is a worthy 30 minute investment...
------
sedeki
How does this differ from the explanation given in the Zeitgeist movie?
~~~
aklein
The movie suggests that the central government directly manufactures an
initial amount of money to be put into circulation by issuing debt that is
bought by the central bank. The proceeds are deposited at commercial banks,
who then lend money out to the maximum extent allowed under fractional bank
lending requirements.
This paper argues that in reality, the relationship is exactly the reverse:
most money (=debt) creation starts as loans between private commercial banks.
Loans become deposits in other bank accounts. If a bank finds itself short on
a reserve requirement, it can just borrow reserves from other banks to meet
its reserves, or from the central bank.
In sum, at least in the United States and England, most money creation stems
from loans within the private sector, as opposed to what the movie and
textbooks typically suggest.
This is explained in the paper:
" For the [money multiplier] theory to hold, the amount of reserves must be a
binding constraint on lending, and the central bank must directly determine
the amount of reserves. While the money multiplier theory can be a useful way
of introducing money and banking in economic textbooks, it is not an accurate
description of how money is created in reality. Rather than controlling the
quantity of reserves, central banks today typically implement monetary policy
by setting the price of reserves — that is, interest rates. In reality,
neither are reserves a binding constraint on lending, nor does the central
bank fix the amount of reserves that are available. As with the relationship
between deposits and loans, the relationship between reserves and loans
typically operates in the reverse way to that described in some economics
textbooks. Banks first decide how much to lend depending on the profitable
lending opportunities available to them — which will, crucially, depend on the
interest rate set by the Bank of England. It is these lending decisions that
determine how many bank deposits are created by the banking system. The amount
of bank deposits in turn influences how much central bank money banks want to
hold in reserve (to meet withdrawals by the public, make payments to other
banks, or meet regulatory liquidity requirements), which is then, in normal
times, supplied on demand by the Bank of England. The rest of this article
discusses these practices in more detail."
~~~
branchless
and most of that lending (money creation) is against land, not businesses. UK:
[http://bsd.wpengine.com/wp-
content/uploads/2013/05/Sectoral-...](http://bsd.wpengine.com/wp-
content/uploads/2013/05/Sectoral-Lending.png)
------
zaro
Ok, so even Bank of England confirms the current money system is a big Ponzi
scheme type of scam. But since everyone is in the scheme the topic of "why do
we keep tolerating this?" never comes up.
~~~
agumonkey
A closed ponzi-scheme looks like a fair description of an economy.
------
Sealy
Right here is a pdf on why you should consider owning an asset such as
Bitcoin. I'm not saying everyone should go all in, just consider owning it as
part of your investment portfolio...
------
solotronics
Do you find yourself disenchanted with the current system of Central banks and
government backed Fiat currency? Do you ever ask what will happen as we create
money at an unprecedented velocity with unknown consequences?
Research bitcoin. Bitcoin is to money as bittorrent is to downloading files.
It is a decentralized trustless system built on cryptology and it is
absolutely beautiful.
~~~
Mikeb85
Except for the fact it has a tendency to concentrate wealth by design, the
exact opposite of what you want in fiat currency.
~~~
Natanael_L
And inflation doesn't, when new money primarily goes to the few closest to the
mint?
With deflation, you have to work harder to expand your share of the economy.
Just holding doesn't contribute to the economy and thus means an already large
held share is less likely to grow in value relative to the desired goods.
~~~
Mikeb85
> With deflation, you have to work harder to expand your share of the economy.
> Just holding doesn't contribute to the economy and thus means an already
> large held share is less likely to grow in value relative to the desired
> goods.
Deflation literally increases the value of already-held cash (when prices go
down, cash becomes more valuable). Deflation literally encourages hoarding,
this is probably the one single tenet of economics that no one disputes.
> And inflation doesn't, when new money primarily goes to the few closest to
> the mint?
Inflation decreases the value of cash, so it encourages spending.
New money is issued when the central bank buys securities on the open market -
usually from the government, sometimes from banks and businesses.
Theoretically they can lend to whomever, but because of arbitrage (if the
centra bank offers debt at 0.25%, interbank lending rate will fall/rise to
that level, because if banks offered worse rates, lenders/borrowers would just
go to the central bank) it winds up not mattering who they lend to.
They don't just wheel piles of cash to the nearest bank for them to hoard and
pay CEOs with...
Anyhow, wiki article:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_bank#Currency_issuance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_bank#Currency_issuance)
And there's plenty of other material online.
~~~
Natanael_L
And then everybody with a lot of money holds... And now what? Now the
miniscule active share of the economy dictates the value of your holdings.
You're thinking short term only. There's no deflation to be had with a
shrinking economy.
There's an equilibrium here, one that's _past_ the point of hoarding for large
players. If you can move the economy all by yourself, you do not want the risk
of letting the economy moving on without you. Money sitting still does no good
by itself.
After all, what's the point of value you can't touch? There's no value in
that...
With inflation, you can grow your share of the economy from your position
alone (increasing both value and "rank"). Deflation point allows your value to
passively increase, not your share of the economy.
And who is capable of performing arbitrage? Average Joe? Nope, inflation feeds
people like on Wall Street since they get to spend the new money long before
workers get their salary increases (after they feel effect of inflation on
their expenses!).
~~~
Mikeb85
> There's no deflation to be had with a shrinking economy.
Deflation almost always accompanies economic downturns. It's literally defined
as a decrease in prices, which is caused by a lack of demand. A recession is
literally a reduction in economic activity. They go together by definition.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflation#Deflationary_spiral](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflation#Deflationary_spiral)
Of course, that's a fairy simply definition, you can have inflation in a
downturn when your currency devaluates, and the price of imported goods go up,
which is a problem if you import too much. But the value of domestic assets is
still going down, so measuring inflation/deflation does depend somewhat on
what exactly you're measuring.
> With inflation, you can grow your share of the economy from your position
> alone
If you own assets you benefit from inflation. If you have cash, you lose from
inflation.
If you only have $1000, and the price of a business goes from $500-$1000
(inflation), you go from being able to buy 2, to only buying one. Cash loses.
If the price deflates from $500-$100, you go from being able to buy 2 to
buying 10. In the deflationary scenario, cash wins.
If you already own a business, it's easier to guess which is better. You want
the price to go up.
> Nope, inflation feeds people like on Wall Street since they get to spend the
> new money long before workers get their salary increases (after they feel
> effect of inflation on their expenses!).
You literally didn't read any information that I posted, did you? Central
banks don't lend to banks to pay their bills or CEOs. They buy securities that
are backed by real assets, and they generally prefer buying government bonds.
> And who is capable of performing arbitrage? Average Joe?
In this particular case, arbitrage is simply deciding who you're going to
borrow from. If bank A offers a mortgage for 5%, and bank B for 6%, which loan
are you going to take? This creates an incentive for both banks to lower their
rate until a point where it's no longer profitable (ie. the rate that they're
borrowing at). This is obviously a simplistic example, but should illustrate
the point.
On a macro scale, if the central bank offers loans at a certain rate, then
other banks will match that rate, otherwise they lose business.
~~~
Natanael_L
> it's literally defined as a decrease in prices, which is caused by a lack of
> demand.
Correlation ≠ causation.
In particular when practically every occurrence of deflation + a bad economy
followed a crash in an economy built on debt. Have you considered that just
like withdrawal symptoms, it isn't necessarily deflation that's the bad thing?
If you have government contracts and buy assets using effectively subsidized
money, your assets and value both grow in absolute numbers. You're buying with
fresh money _before_ it has been matched by a price signal in the economy,
only _then_ raising the price.
With deflation only value grows, and only for as long as the economy stays
alive.
How does printed money enter the economy if it isn't used to buy anything? And
the printers don't buy from everybody equally. Value is shifted from the
entire society to those closest to the printers.
And people not in a position to chose between loans or take any loans at all?
I.e. below middle class?
~~~
Mikeb85
> In particular when practically every occurrence of deflation + a bad economy
> followed a crash in an economy built on debt. Have you considered that just
> like withdrawal symptoms, it isn't necessarily deflation that's the bad
> thing?
A decrease in prices spurs demand so it can be a good thing.
However, in the context of currency, you don't want the currency itself to
have deflationary mechanisms. In bitcoin's case, there's an ever-increasing
cost to mining the bitcoins. This means the value will naturally increase.
Which discourages any sort of spending.
The reason why a money supply that never increases is bad, is because human
populations do increase. If more humans demand the same quantity of money,
then those with money have the incentive to never spend. This negatively
impacts the economy.
This is why in any downturn, the central bank response to deflation is to
increase the money supply. By making money cheaper, they're encouraging people
to take advantage of cheaper asset prices. This in turn, spurs demand.
> If you have government contracts and buy assets using effectively subsidized
> money, your assets and value both grow in absolute numbers.
You're forgetting that the borrower owes money.
> How does printed money enter the economy if it isn't used to buy anything?
Of course it's used to buy things. No one takes out loans to simply hoard
money, because there's a cost to the loan (and the cost of the loan will
always be more than the cost of a no-risk asset).
> Value is shifted from the entire society to those closest to the printers.
This is conspiracy thinking at it's finest. No one gets 'free' money. It all
has to be paid back at some point.
Value goes to those who engage in constructive activities. Loans are a way to
shift unused capital to constructive activities.
And no, no one has to take out a loan. You can accrue capital in other ways.
However the lending system makes the whole economy more efficient.
~~~
EdHominem
> This is why in any downturn, the central bank response to deflation is to
> increase the money supply. By making money cheaper, they're encouraging
> people to take advantage of cheaper asset prices. This in turn, spurs
> demand.
This ignores the astronomical losses from our fractional banking system.
Pretty much every 40 years we get a crash and print our way out of it, giving
ever more money to the core of the system. (Trickle-down, or too-big-to-fail,
both were rewards simply for being the entrenched players.) The USD has lost
95% of its value. Perhaps for the "economy" (... of bankers who defraud us)
inflation is good, but for the common man fraud is worse and fiat is the
enabler, not the solution.
Sure, there's _a_ problem having a fiat system is good for but there's a huge
gulf between "Fixes problem X" and "Performs better across all scenarios".
~~~
Mikeb85
> This ignores the astronomical losses from our fractional banking system.
> Pretty much every 40 years we get a crash and print our way out of it,
> giving ever more money to the core of the system.
Take a look at some very long term (100 year) GDP charts. The economy is far
less volatile today than ever before.
While there are culprits, the fractional banking system isn't necessarily one.
> Trickle-down, or too-big-to-fail, both were rewards simply for being the
> entrenched players.
These are the results of a corrupt system, not because of the existence of
fiat currency or central banks.
> The USD has lost 95% of its value.
And you make 20 times more of it.
> Perhaps for the "economy" (... of bankers who defraud us) inflation is good,
> but for the common man fraud is worse and fiat is the enabler, not the
> solution.
Please, there was theft and fraud when we were trading piles of grain and
goats.
~~~
EdHominem
> These are the results of a corrupt system, not because of the existence of
> fiat currency or central banks.
Without the ability to print money we wouldn't have to wish for a unicorn - a
non-corrupt system.
The banking/mortgage problem in 2008 only happened because everyone involved
knew we'd bail them out, because we could. Whereas if we couldn't we'd have
recovered the lost funds from the guilty parties.
The existence of an easy out practically guarantees that the government will
take it.
> And you make 20 times more of it.
And what you had from before is nearly worthless. Yes, inflation keeps people
on their toes because they need to work today to eat today, but I'd keep you
on your toes if I stole your car too, you'd have to really be productive to
break even!
That's a broken window fallacy with the twist of slightly breaking everyone's
window.
As a currency, fiat is an absolutely stupid idea. So stupid that they had to
make specie ownership illegal to force people to play along. Yes, I understand
it gives the country great options. But so does conscription...
> Please, there was theft and fraud when we were trading piles of grain and
> goats.
Only fiat inflation lets a thief steal from _everyone_ simultaneously. And
thanks, but that's not really an answer anyways. I don't care that someone is
always _willing_ to steal from me, I care when the law says I can't attempt to
avoid it.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: What’s the hardest part about learning and using mental models? - febin
======
doomerjk
Learning them is bloody hard, personally - there are a ton of established ones
to keep track of and I at times find myself trying hard to remember them vs.
just moving forward and building my own.
That said this book has helped enormously -- [https://www.amazon.com/Model-
Thinker-What-Need-Know/dp/04650...](https://www.amazon.com/Model-Thinker-What-
Need-Know/dp/0465094627)
Introduced via the interview between the author and Shane Parish @ Knowledge
Project (Farnam Street).
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Canada's Quiet Weakening of Communications Encryption - fraqed
https://citizenlab.org/2015/08/canadas-quiet-history-of-weakening-communications-encryption/
======
tptacek
_As a result, DUAL EC DRBG has been incorporated into a range of products,
including those from security company RSA, in operating systems such as
Microsoft Windows,and in a version of OpenSSL (a tool commonly used to
facilitate website encryption). The integration of the standard with operating
systems was significant because, by changing the default method by which the
operating system encrypted communications traffic, an intelligence agency
could decrypt data now encrypted using DUAL EC DRBG._
Dual_EC was never the default in Microsoft Windows, and you'd have to put
effort into building a version of OpenSSL that used it. The article is
overstating its case here.
Dual_EC was famously the default for some versions of RSA BSAFE, and RSA BSAFE
seems to have acknowledged accepting money from the USG to set that default.
But BSAFE's licensors used it primarily to mollify RSA's patents, which
expired over a decade ago. Lots of vendors that license BSAFE don't use it for
anything meaningful. OpenSSL is much, much more popular in closed-source
enterprise tools than BSAFE is.
~~~
kevin_nisbet
I believe it also overstates or miss-represents the way the wireless
telecommunications networks operate.
While I'm honestly not familiar with the SGES or all the rules the article is
alluding to about decryption, I think this article also miss-represents the
way wireless telecommunications networks work. The encryption used by networks
such as UMTS and LTE are international standards specified by the 3GPP, and to
my limited knowledge do not draw on DUAL EC DRBG in any way. However, my
experience in this portion of the encryption is extremely limited.
Anyways, the encryption used by UMTS and LTE networks as specified by the
3GPP, are international standards, and are used to authenticate users SIM
cards, and to protect the air interface for integrity and confidentiality. As
such, the telephone communications should be difficult to intercept on the
radio interface only, but when it enters the network the need for encryption
is no longer needed.
To maybe draw a parallel to a web service, many load balancers offer SSL
termination. SSL between the browser and the web server, is important to
protect the connection between the client and any intermediate networks.
However, once it get's to the load balancer, many services will just pass the
traffic internally without encryption. Many systems like connections to a
database will may also not be encrypted. Once you're within your own network,
you don't keep everything encrypted at every step. The cellular network can be
thought of in a similar way, the encryption is used to bring the service into
the network in locations where it can be intercepted from outside the network.
Now if you think of something like say Internet traffic, for you to visit
hacker news. You phone or tablet, will activate a cellular connection, and
will send packets to the cellular network. The radio connection will be
encrypted, but it will be decrypted by the network, because Hacker News
doesn't know or understand the cellular encryption protocols, there are no
end-to-end guarantee's provided. Also, the cellular network will eventually
turn into an IP network, and the IP routing headers will be needed for regular
Internet routing. When it leaves the cellular network, it will just be IP
traffic like any other Internet traffic. What you are protected from, is that
someone following you around with a special radio, can't listen in on your
conversations, messages, etc __.
In the case of Hacker News though, SSL is used, so that regular Internet
traffic is also encrypted at a layer above TCP/IP, and the contents will be
unknown.
Anyways, I hope that made sense. The article may have a lot of merit about
what's going on, but in my experience it miss-represents how the mobile
network operates.
__To be fair, and what may be relevant, is the 3GPP did cripple cellular
encryption technologies at one point, for use in countries with export
restrictions if I remember correctly. __Also, at least the older encryption
algorithms have known flaws. And there are also documentation of other flaws,
such as being able to trick certain phones into using null encryption for
example and then intercepting the radio traffic. Or getting the UE to trust a
network that it shouldn 't be able to.
Now for the mandatory disclaimer, the information provided are my own views,
and in no way represent my employer. I do work in the wireless
telecommunications sector in Canada, and all the information I provided is
available to the public if you know where to look.
------
somberi
A side read, but somewhat related. By NY times "The closing of the Canadian
Mind".
[http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/opinion/sunday/the-
closing...](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/opinion/sunday/the-closing-of-
the-canadian-mind.html?_r=0)
~~~
samBergeron
This was a great read. As a Canadian, I get the feeling that (most) people get
Harper is bad news, but don't quite get all the details. I'll be sharing this
one.
------
white-flame
This article doesn't mention warrants at all. Are those even a consideration
of these laws?
Can a Canadian government agency simply say "Gimme this info" to Canadian
businesses with no oversight or accountability?
Also, the C-13 provisions regarding a crime under foreign law reeks of US
involvement. However, it's also a restriction on Canadian sovereignty, making
the nation beholden to any crazy law anywhere in the world. (or simply
broadening the ability for selective enforcement to pull in any reason they
can think up)
------
decasteve
Speaking of weakening wireless communication, what ever happened to the
Gemalto sim card revelations? This was big news 6 months ago then it just
disappeared.
As far as I know, no recall ever happened. So we are all still using the
compromised sim cards?
~~~
throwaway7767
> Speaking of weakening wireless communication, what ever happened to the
> Gemalto sim card revelations? This was big news 6 months ago then it just
> disappeared. > As far as I know, no recall ever happened. So we are all
> still using the compromised sim cards?
A local company was specifically named in leaked documents about the gemalto
SIM compromise. When contacted by the news media, they asked Gemalto about it
and were told an internal investigation had not revealed any evidence of
breach. They proceeded to do nothing, and all those SIM cards are still in
circulation.
I can't speak for what other carriers did, but certainly some of them are
still out there, and I would hazard a guess that it would be most of them.
------
supergetting
If it were the case that the telecom company is providing the government
decrypted information, wouldn't they be giving the government an already-
encrypted information if I were to use a VPN app like expressVPN on my
smartphone?
------
doctorshady
So I'm not familiar with Canadian law. Does royal assent mean it passed?
~~~
Spooky23
Yes.
The queen of the UK has a nominal right to veto led passed by parliaments. The
Governor General of Canada provides that assent in Canada.
~~~
steve19
The Queen of _Canada_ must provide royal assent for legislation to pass.
The Governor General of Canada is her appointed representative who acts on her
behalf.
The Queen of Canada also happens to be the Queen of the United Kingdom.
Canada could, if they wanted to, pass a new Succession to the Throne Act which
could change who inherits the crown.
If Canadian laws surrounding the order of succession were different to the UK,
the monarchs of the two countries could diverge. Canada's Canada Act 1982
prevents the UK parliament legislating for Canada, which since then means if
the UK changes succession to the throne laws, Canada has to mirror it in their
legislation, or they will potentially have different monarch. Canada had to do
this a couple of years back when the UK changed the how the crown was
inherited (made the oldest child of the monarch inherit it, regardless of sex
... I think)
~~~
Spooky23
Thanks for the clarification! This stuff has always been confusing to me :)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Sticker shock over Seattle's new sugary drink tax - Shivetya
http://www.kiro7.com/news/local/sticker-shock-over-seattles-new-sugary-drink-tax/677490924
======
smoyer
I broadly agree that we americans consume too much sugar but I'm worried that
many will find drinking artificial sweeteners as detrimental as I have.
Somewhere I have a link to a source article with references to the study
behind this article but alas, I'm not finding it in my Pinboard -
[https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/01/...](https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/01/14/artificial-
sweeteners-dont-fool-your-brain.aspx).
What about all our other over-sweetened junk foods? What about all our fried
snack-foods?
~~~
Keverw
Good point. At least sugar is natural instead of a bunch of man made
chemicals.
~~~
icebraining
The sugar used in drinks - especially in the US - is far from natural. There's
no HFCS in nature.
~~~
Keverw
Yep. I would prefer if they went with just regular cane sugar instead but I
know some drinks do have a version with that now.
~~~
senectus1
Australia overwhelmingly uses cane sugar, but we still have plenty of obesity.
I think its less to do with the type of sugar consumed... and more about how
much we consume.
------
olympus
These taxes currently only drive purchases out of your jurisdiction, lowering
your tax base but not preventing the bad behavior. If you want a sugar tax to
be effective it needs to cover a large enough area that I can't easily avoid
it.
Boulder, CO has a two cent per ounce sugar tax. It has been extremely
effective- I now always stop at a gas station in Denver to buy a soda before
driving into the Boulder city limits (I only go to Boulder once or twice a
month).
It's just like how we used to drive across state lines to buy cheap fireworks
as a kid.
~~~
friedButter
> These taxes currently only drive purchases out of your jurisdiction
Or you can use it as an employment generation exercise by setting up
checkpoints at state borders to avoid import from other states, applying a
higher tax on fuel locally and making it illegal to bring more fuel into the
state than you go out with. A few states in India have successfully
implemented the first part for alcohol for instance, and I guess other
countries should have the same. Even US has differing gun laws across states,
so whatever mechanism is used to enforce those can be extended to enforce this
~~~
LyndsySimon
> Even US has differing gun laws across states, so whatever mechanism is used
> to enforce those can be extended to enforce this
Ah, so stopping minorities to shake them down for soda.
In all seriousness, you can't just set up border checkpoints in the US. You'd
have to have probable cause to stop an individual, and even if you stopped
everyone you can't search them without a warrant (which requires probably
cause) or their permission.
~~~
friedButter
Isnt checking for cross state border tax evasion considered probable cause?
Just like how customs inspects packages coming from outside the country or
even Americans returning from a foreign visit (Not an American, just curious..
since apparently this is a US specific behaviour)
~~~
LyndsySimon
> Isnt checking for cross state border tax evasion considered probable cause?
Nope. Probable cause is a specific legal standard in the US - the Wikipedia
article gives a decent overview:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause)
In short, it requires a reasonable belief that a crime has been committed.
------
runj__
Are there any other goods taxed after quantity rather than a sales tax? It
seems complicated.
EDIT: Ah, cigarettes and alcohol (in the US) apparently:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cigarette_taxes_in_the_United_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cigarette_taxes_in_the_United_States#State_cigarette_tax_rates)
[https://www.cbo.gov/budget-options/2013/44854](https://www.cbo.gov/budget-
options/2013/44854)
And healthcare:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excise_tax_in_the_United_State...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excise_tax_in_the_United_States#Affordable_care_act_excise_taxes)
~~~
olympus
Gasoline tax is based on quantity in the USA:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_Sta...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_States)
It makes sense because gas usage is very correlated with road wear, so people
who drive heavier vehicles pay a proportionate share of the road maintenance
costs.
~~~
froindt
> It makes sense because gas usage is very correlated with road wear, so
> people who drive heavier vehicles pay a proportionate share of the road
> maintenance costs.
There are also some cases where it makes no sense, particularly since fuel tax
is a primary source of funding for infrastructure and repair.
A Toyota Prius and a Ford Focus are both around 3,000 lbs, will do roughly the
same damage on the road. The Prius gets 58 mpg city and 53 highway. The Focus
is at 30 city 40 highway. So for city driving the Prius driver contributes 1/2
as much to the fuel tax revenues.
It's a nice incentive to reduce emissions, however the Prius driver is not
contributing proportionally to the fuel tax.
If only we could charge make a charge based on weight, mpg, and miles driven.
~~~
r00fus
The brouhaha over a Prius (or heck, my Focus Electric) not paying fair share
of gas taxes is overblown since hybrids and electrics still constitute a
minuscule % of total road wear.
The issue will come to a head when we have 4x4s and 18 wheelers en masse
hybridized or fully electric in large quantities. I don't see that happening
for a decade or more out.
~~~
LyndsySimon
I honestly don't ever see the typical 4x4 being a hybrid. Living in rural
Arkansas, almost everyone I know who drives a 4x4 drives an older model, and
working on them is a large part of the experience.
I drive a 2000 Jeep, and wouldn't even consider buying a hybrid or fully-
electric version. A diesel, absolutely, but not anything with a battery pack.
------
dawhizkid
Isn't that the point? If it went unnoticed because it was too small then
nothing would really come of it.
------
snarfy
I hate 'sin' taxes in all forms including this one. Tax alcohol, tobacco,
cannabis, and now sugar. It's meant to control behavior, but they
disproportionately affect the poor. They do a poor job of controlling
behavior. Any cigarette smoking given the choice between having no lunch or
having no cigarettes is going to choose cigarettes every time. That's not
controlling behavior it's subverting it.
~~~
svantana
The word "sin" implicates that it's all about morality, but there are also
real negative externalities associated with these stimulants that are costing
society a lot of money. Also, taxes have to come from somewhere, isn't it good
to tax things that are (on average) bad for society rather than only
good/neutral things (like income)?
~~~
bryanlarsen
"Pigouvian tax" is the term for a tax on negative externalities.
A tax on sugar is both a sin tax and a Pigouvian tax. IMO the real reason for
its introduction was the sin tax angle, but it's Pigouvian tax principles is
what makes it a "good" tax.
~~~
pm90
I was under the impression that the taxes were more from a public health
perspective: smoking, alcohol etc. are leading causes of death and we want to
discourage public consumption while at the same time raising revenue
~~~
bryanlarsen
That's basically the definition of a sin tax: a tax to discourage you from
doing things that are bad for you.
------
makesthingspos
In common scenarios this can be a 134-236% tax. Cigarette tax is roughly 50%,
Marijuana is roughly 50%, Liquor is roughly 30%.
Common scenarios:
Store brand 2-liter: $0.88, 67 ounces, $0.0175 per ounce, $1.17 in tax, 134%
tax.
During all of December, 2-liter Cokes at Walmart in my town in Washington (not
sure about Seattle) were $0.95 with $1 off coupon when buying two, this yields
the 236% tax rate.
If milk is listed as the first ingredient, it's not taxed. So 1200 calorie
milkshakes are a substitute.
------
nickjj
Hey, it could be worse.
I live in a place where as of Jan 1st of this year, you have to pay a tax on
plastic bags (5 cents per bag).
Unlike soda, just about everyone who goes grocery shopping in small increments
uses bags (because a cart is overkill).
Yesterday I left the grocery store with a chicken breast sticking out of my
coat pocket.
~~~
Thimothy
Or, crazy thought, you could _reuse_ those bags. A tiny dent on all that
plastic wrapping that goes into landfills but...
~~~
nickjj
I will now but I don't think it'll do much in the grand scheme of things.
Even if you bought 1 bag every day for a year that'll be $18.25. Most people
won't care enough to reuse bags and will continue doing business as usual pre-
tax.
Then of course, there's the ~7.4 billion other people on Earth who never even
heard of a plastic bag tax so their habits won't change either.
I would rather see them just stop manufacturing plastic bags and also make
them illegal. If their goal is to cut down on people using them that would be
the way to do it. Instead, they tax it to an amount where they are hoping more
than enough people won't care enough, so they can profit off laziness while
they care nothing about the environment.
~~~
dagw
_Then of course, there 's the ~7.4 billion other people on Earth who never
even heard of a plastic bag tax so their habits won't change either._
Actually a plastic bag charge or even ban becoming the norm in more and more
parts of the world. If anything the US is late to this game.
------
Keverw
I doubt the diet soda is going to be much better for you. Seattle seems crazy.
Banning plastic straws. Sure wouldn't want to live there, maybe visit but they
even want to ban people from driving gas and diesels into the city! So I guess
skip them on the road trip across the country once they do!
Electric cars are all about control, limiting freedoms and are gimmicky. The
new Tesla you have to use the touch screen to even open the glove box! Even
the AC is touch screen based - which I think is unsafe compared to a tactile
physical knob.
[http://komonews.com/news/local/seattle-other-major-world-
cit...](http://komonews.com/news/local/seattle-other-major-world-cities-
pledge-to-ban-gas-diesel-vehicles) \- wonder how huge of a fine they'll give
to tourists just passing through.
I really think these local governments are out of control. I really hope the
feds step in and do something to them using the Commerce Clause to end this
nonsense. I think there are certain things cities should be prohibited from
regulating.
~~~
icebraining
So you want to ban them from banning stuff? What's wrong with local citizens
deciding what they want for their own city, anyway?
_The new Tesla you have to use the touch screen to even open the glove box!
Even the AC is touch screen based - which I think is unsafe compared to a
tactile physical knob._
I fully agree, but that has nothing to do with being an electric car. The
Chevy Bolt has a regular knob for AC control, for example:
[http://st.automobilemag.com/uploads/sites/11/2017/03/Chevrol...](http://st.automobilemag.com/uploads/sites/11/2017/03/Chevrolet-
Bolt-EV-2017-All-Star-Winner-climate-control.jpg)
~~~
Keverw
Nice about the Bolt. I just feel like Silicon Valley and other cities like LA
and Seattle are out of touch with the rest of America, and some sort of bubble
of repeating ideas over and over again.
I care about the environment but I also think we have to be practical about
it. Newer and newer gas cars are getting cleaner and more efficient. Or maybe
someone enjoys off roading in their Jeep. or someone out of state is touring
the nation in their Diesel Pusher RV. I just think it's crazy for a city to
try to ban people who live in other cities from even being allowed to drive
there based on their car. Well by 2030 and the article mentions the mayor, so
maybe it will never happen. I just hate that idea. Maybe the tourism or
chamber of commerce would step up for that one.
At least with the soda tax you can just drive out of the city and buy it
cheaper like the signs they posted mentioned at the store.
~~~
dagw
_I just feel like Silicon Valley and other cities like LA and Seattle are out
of touch with the rest of America_
I thought that was one of the cool features of the US. That cities and states
are much more free to come up with their own way to do things and test out new
ideas without always having to go the federal government and ask for
permission. If Seattle wants to do A and Minneapolis wants to do B, they can
just go and do it and see what happens instead of lobbying the government to
make either A or B mandatory across the whole country.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Why We Keep Falling for Financial Scams - rglovejoy
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123093987596650197.html
======
tokenadult
"After I wrote my book, I lost a good chunk of my retirement savings to Mr.
Madoff, so I know of what I write on the most personal level."
Now there's a backhanded endorsement of a book by its author.
------
pasbesoin
TANSTAAFL is a pretty good model. If a situation isn't comprehensible or
doesn't seem to be sustainable, don't invest as if it were.
The Golden Rule is another thing to keep in mind: If your gains seem are so
outsized that they seem like robbery, there's a good chance that they are. Two
questions ensue: Do you want to gain that way at another's expense? Are you
sure you're the one who's gaining?
I guess particularly in this site's environment, rich in innovators, there
would be a significant amount of gain where the cause is the replacement of
outdated business and technical models. But then hopefully that is taking
place in fields that you understand; the transfer isn't "magic".
I've mentioned before, but watching Chicago real estate prices rise into the
middle years of this decade was unnerving. The rest of the economy was not
accelerating to match. It didn't seem sustainable, and it wasn't.
Not that I'm any expert. Just my $0.02, while I still have the pennies to rub
together.
------
qqq
> Why We Keep Falling for Financial Scams
I don't.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Wind Shortage? - lilbarbarian
http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2015/09/is-there-a-wind-shortage.html
======
JorgeGT
All that wind farms weren't free, we were robbing Earth's angular momentum!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: How can I make Hacker Newsletter better? - duck
Last year I doubled the subscriber count for Hacker Newsletter[0] to 14,000 and my goal for 2013 is to double it again. To accomplish that, I have several ideas I'm working on, but thought I would check here as well since the newsletter exists because of this community.<p>If you already are a subscriber, I would love to know how I could make it better and if you're not, is there anything I could do that would make you sign-up and check it out?<p>Thanks!<p>[0]: http://hackernewsletter.com
======
tokenadult
Be sure to keep hilarious endorsements like
"Hacker Newsletter is great. It's reduced the time I spend on Hacker News from
several times per hour to several times per hour plus the weekly newsletter."
-Jason Seifer, Founder of Scheduling, Host of The Ruby Show
That's what just convinced me to sign up.
AFTER EDIT: And now that I have signed up, the usability suggestion I have for
the archived issues is to make sure that each issue in the archive links to
the previous issue, and all but the most recent issue in the archive links to
the next issue. That's the expected browsing capability on most permalinks.
VERY IMPORTANT: Style the archives links to distinguish visited from unvisited
links.
<http://www.nngroup.com/articles/top-10-mistakes-web-design/>
~~~
duck
Thanks! I like to add some humor to everything, and Jason probably nailed it
perfectly with that testimonial.
Regarding the archives, yeah, they need some work. They are currently hosted
on MailChimp, but looking to bringing up my own archive so I can control
things like that and maybe add some other features.
------
mattjaynes
Kale - this has had fantastic value for me and saves me a lot of time.
I agree with sazary that a line or two editorial about each link (similar to
how Peter Cooper does it) would add even more value. Perhaps not necessary for
all links - that could get overwhelming - but maybe for a few of your top
recommended links.
------
orangethirty
Can you ad one article of original content (as in original to the newsletter)?
Something like an email interview from a founder, hacker, or person of
interest. It would be very nice. Also, on my newsletters, I've found that
adding something not related to the subject at hand keeps it fresh. I
sometimes link a funny youtube video, and have even included a lolcat. Makes
people want to see what I'm doing next. If you want to chat about newsletters
and stuff, feel free to email me (on profile). Note: I have been publishing
newsletters since the dawn of time. In fact, dinosaurs knew they were going to
be extinct because my newsletter "News-O-Saurus" told them about the meteor
impact. Too bad those dumb lizards didn't know how to read. :)
------
duck
Clickable: <http://hackernewsletter.com/>
You can also check out the last 131 issues from the bottom of that page.
------
simba-hiiipower
kale, you seem pretty awesome by the way. and i'd say hacker newsletter is as
well. feels exceptionally well put together and i appreciate you not
cluttering it with ads (though i do enjoy the often cleverly delivered one
that is there); hope the effort’s been paying-off for you.
and i’m hard pressed to come-up with feedback for the content or structure of
the newsletter itself, but (and this, understandably, may be taking things in
a direction your wholly uninterested in) i’ve always thought it’d be nice to
have this content delivered as an app.. in addition to offering an alternative
way to monetize (i’d gladly pay for it), i think it could really enhance the
user experience, particularly on mobile devices. some user-specific benefits i
could see from such an approach:
\- open story links within the app (rather than switching between email and
browser)
\- better comment viewing experience (viewing hn on mobile generally sucks)
\- direct access to all archived issues (would be nice)
thinking about it, and considering all the work that would have to be put in,
it could make for a great mobile hn reader (integrated newsletter for
highlights + mobile-optimized hn access for staying current).
\-------------------------------------------
also just want to add, that your _wayback letter_ [1] is beyond awesome! it’s
really cool being able to step back at various intervals in time and see what
was going on. i find it pretty funny seeing what was in-focus as recent as a
month ago, and actually quite insightful reaching back a few years. as i said,
beyond awesome and very well put together, encourage people to check it out.
[1] <http://www.waybackletter.com/>
------
bdcravens
Mine the comments. I typically get more information there, and you'd save
everyone from engaging in "OMG! Someone is WRONG on the Internet!"
Hell, you could have a full newsletter: "Best of patio11 Weekly" :-)
------
prawks
For what it's worth I think it serves my purposes very well. I would suggest
being mindful of trying to add features that could ultimately clutter it.
I love the categories you put submissions into; one way to both provide a
helpful feature to subscribers as well as prevent them receiving too much
information that they're not interested in (clutter) would be to select
specific categories you wish to receive a newsletter for when you sign up your
email. Modularization is good.
------
talmir
I just signed up, and I gotta give it to you that the look and layout of your
site is very very nice :) Everything is very clear and from my five minutes of
browsing the archives I cant personally find a single thing to criticize.
I read in other comments here that it´d be great to have a summary for each
link. But I imagine that would be tedious and time consuming. Personally I
think the titles of the links do just fine :)
------
sazary
it seems that you yourself read articles that are in the email. so i think
writing just a few lines that describes every link is a good idea. Dave Pell
is doing a good job about this in NextDraft.
also points and number of comments are important things to be included in
email, but they may clutter it. personally i prefer them to be there.
and the classics part is really good ;)
~~~
duck
Thanks, and yes, I've gotten several requests for summaries. I tried doing
that before, but I didn't like the results... but I might give that another
try. You can hover over the title to get the points & # of comments.
If you like the classics, you'll probably enjoy my other newsletter as well -
<http://waybackletter.com>.
~~~
ColinDabritz
I'm giving the newsletter a shot. As far as summaries, I can see how it could
clutter the flow, maybe there is a way to put them out of the way of the main
flow? Optional hover? It's a great place to expose a bit more 'curation' value
if it can be done without causing problems.
I would also mention, one huge reason I use hacker news is for the comments.
If the summary could just mention a couple major topics of discussion, e.g.
the 'good stuff' it would make a summary useful to me there as well.
More broadly, I noticed that all your links are the articles, with companion
comments. You do have a few 'ask HN' and similar thread posts, but perhaps
consider highlighting those occasional remarkable discussion threads on their
own, or quoting excellent posts. I've saved more than a few HN comments
myself, and a couple great quotes at the end could be a nice 'wrap-up' and
bring some of the community discussion feel to the format.
~~~
duck
Actually, there usually is a "Ask HN" section... but if there isn't any good
ones or if they end up in other sections then it doesn't show. It is funny, at
the beginning there use to be tons of them and then over the last year those
started to thin out, but that seems to be reversing again here of late (which
is good!).
------
tucaz
I just signed for it, so I guess that asking how you can improve it actually
improves it (in a user growth way).
~~~
wikwocket
That would suggest that additionally publicity would help. So I suppose
convenient features to "share this" or "post this to twitter" might help
growth. But it;s already an email (super easy to forward), and that wouldn't
add value to the original recipient.
------
yitchelle
Kale - your newsletter really save me time. Personally, I would love to see a
selection of stories that _aren't_ so popular. I commonly comb through the
list of new articles that are a bit outside the box. They usually talk about
human nature, knowledge crossing domains etc.
Keep up the good work!
------
tsm
I actually prefer the Wayback Letter (most things I see in HNL I've already
seen on HN proper), but it frequently goes through spurts of not happening. I
realize that you're a busy man and that, for example, having a new child is
more important than sending out the day's Wayback Letter. But it'd be nice to
have some sort of status indicator--if you anticipate an "outage", let us know
ahead of time, or if you don't it'd be great to have an email or website that
just said, "There's stuff going on in my life, expect the next few days to be
canceled."
------
127001brewer
Kale - I'm a subscriber and I think it's great in its current format. Outside
of postings on Hacker News, how are you advertising its existence?
------
joeyespo
Hey Kale, why don't you put a Gittip[0] button in the newsletter? That could
get you some funding so you can keep doing what you're doing. Pycoders
Weekly[1] is currently doing this too.
[0]: <http://www.gittip.com/>
[1]: <https://www.gittip.com/PycodersWeekly/>
------
kordless
What is it written in/how does it work code-wise? Also, would you run another
version/flavor for a subtopic like visualization?
~~~
duck
I wrote a custom Ruby/Sinatra app that helps me build it out each week and use
that to hand-pick each article. The app scraps HN (although I'm about to
convert it over to using the hnsearch api I think) and allows me to filter all
the links each week in various ways. I then use MailChimp (and it's great api)
to send it out each Friday.
I'm working on making the app more generic in terms of the source and I have a
couple other topics that I want to do, but just haven't had the time to finish
yet. Look for another one in a month or so though.
------
joeyespo
Just wanted to say thank you for the hacker newsletter! It's a huge time saver
by being able to visit HN less often while shaking that feeling of missing
out.
That said, I still have this compulsion of clicking open more links than I
have time for. Any thoughts on a Hacker Newsletter Lite?
------
beeps
Havent thought either of these to implementation: 1\. If you could somehow add
a humorous one line caption to each post. 2\. ranking? ..linux article with
100 votes trumps web article with 400 votes. Adaptive ranking based on my
click through would be boss too.
------
spoiledtechie
Since your asking for feedback, I was wondering if I may have my own feedback
being I am a start up as well. You have tons of reviews on your site. Did you
ask for all those reviews or did they just come organically?
Thank you!
~~~
duck
Several of them I got without asking and that prompted me to ask a couple more
folks for them. I think the best advise is to just ask individuals for them.
------
bmac27
Did you build the readership organically entirely from HN? Were there other
sources from which folks signed up?
Also have you considered some kind of daily edition? Or might that be
considered overkill?
~~~
wikwocket
I believe at one point he said he got a lot of subscribers from a cross-
promotion with the Now I Know newsletter (<http://nowiknow.com/>). I'm not
sure if he has done this with other newsletters.
For daily content, I recommend <http://dailyhn.com/>. It provides a list of
top daily stories with automatically-generated digests. The digests are of
decent quality, but I just use it as a daily top ten list.
~~~
bmac27
Cool. Thanks for sharing. I'm wrestling with the daily/weekly question myself
as I'm starting to publish my own newsletter. My own instincts run counter to
wanting to receive an e-mail blast daily no matter how relevant it is. But I'm
not sure whether others feel the same. Think I'll ultimately experiment with
both to see if I can find a sweet spot.
~~~
wikwocket
Hard to say: lots of great and popular newsletters use both the daily and
weekly models. You could offer the choice on signup I suppose.
------
Tichy
Is there a preview available somewhere? I am looking for a way to read HN on
my Kindle.
Nevermind, found the archive at the very bottom of the page. I guess it won't
work for Kindle, though.
------
nanook
An interview with popular HN users will be awesome. I often find myself
looking up profiles of people who've left interesting comments/submissions to
see the stuff they're working on.
------
donretag
There's a newsletter?
Seriously, that is my response. Never knew one existed before this post.
Perhaps marketing should be a goal.
------
darkhorn
* ability to delete account
* ability to delete comments
* ability to edit comments after a month
------
zacharydanger
You can clear the subscribe box on focus rather than just on click.
------
rbchv
Do you monetize this in any way, or are you planning to?
~~~
duck
I run a single ad pretty much every issue, mainly served up by the great
people at LaunchBit. That works well, but I'm looking into some other addition
ways to monetize it just so I can fund more projects that I want to do. :)
------
lsiebert
Info on upcoming regional HN meetups might be cool
------
sideprojectbook
Do you allow advertising?
~~~
duck
Yep, I direct people to <http://lauchbit.com> if they want to advertise.
------
DropRob
How many new sign ups did this post get you? :)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How to Reject Engineering Candidates - tacon
http://code.dblock.org/2013/05/26/how-to-reject-engineering-candidates.html
======
morgante
Please don't do this. I actually find these example emails much _more_
insulting than the generic "we're going in a different direction" emails.
The reason I prefer the generic emails is that in many ways they're a
testament to the fact that interviewing has a high degree of randomness. In
many/most cases, rejecting a candidate comes down to an amorphous feeling that
they won't fit in. Or just a brain block on a particular problem which doesn't
speak to overall technical ability. Bottom line: the process is often quite
random, so attempting to ascribe random decisions to inherent personal
attributes is insulting.
The one kind of feedback I appreciate is when it's specific and actionable.
For example: "we only hire people with an active open source presence" or
"we've decided to curtail all remote hiring." This is something with a clear
reason that isn't inherently personal. And no, "improve your culture fit" is
not actionable.
~~~
lemevi
I've seen interviewers that were worse than the candidate, knew less, made
mistakes in asking questions and evaluating the answer and then rejected the
candidate anyway. To get an email like from the OP after something like this
would be pretty terrible.
Recruiting personnel in human resources are not in a position to evaluate the
merits of the interview and it might help if this person wrote the feedback
from the perspective of the interviewer and not as a collective "we".
------
vezzy-fnord
_These aren’t perfect and they stay pretty general, but they aren’t canned
bullshit responses either._
Hm, I find that debatable. Your example rejection strikes me as overly verbose
with little substance, is almost comically apologetic, and again boils down to
the exact same one-liner of "You're not a good fit at this time."
It's really a long-winded way to convey the exact same (lack of) message, but
with tidbits of one's resume and lots of apology sprinkled in to seemingly
convey depth and empathy.
------
FlannelPancake
Oh god, please don't do this. This is worse than "We decided to go a different
direction," because at least that takes less time to read.
If you're not going to provide substantive feedback ("we felt like your
performance on the nearest-neighbor problem was pretty rough and were looking
for a more optimized solution") then just give the one liner and be done with
it.
We get it: you're hamstrung because of legal liabilities. That's fine. Don't
make it worse by making us read a paragraph that isn't going to be helpful for
the future.
~~~
BurningFrog
> We get it: you're hamstrung because of legal liabilities.
At one place that rejected me the recruiter offered to tell me the reasons
_over the phone_.
I think that sidesteps any liability problem. The phone calls leaves no paper
trail, and recording it without his consent is illegal.
~~~
vonmoltke
> recording it without his consent is illegal.
Depending on your (and his) jurisdiction. In many US states, it _is_ legal.
~~~
BurningFrog
I'm in California, where it is illegal.
------
canistr
_We appreciate your huge desire to learn and your creative instinct. You’re
obviously excited to code and solve hard problems. But tech-wise we don’t
think you meet the bar that we’re aiming for a candidate for this position._
Stopped reading right there.
You don't need to provide a wall of text why I'm not the right candidate. I
don't intend to read your summary of my resume. There's really no point. I'm
already in a mad/frustrated/disappointed/etc. state and giving me a great wall
of text is adding insult to injury.
Engineering candidates are really looking for feedback on how the
interview/technical component went. The "cultural fit" answer is a blackbox
and stating it doesn't really answer what you're looking for.
You're better off just telling me I'm not the right fit and for legal reasons,
you can't go into details. That's really it. Don't tell me about what you
think of my previous experience. Don't tell me about the other candidates
(frankly, I don't care unless they become my co-workers).
~~~
Bartweiss
This does have useful info in it - the line starting with "But tech-wise".
I think you're right that technical feedback is the biggest thing, and even a
binary answer is useful. "Cultural fit", "we found someone better", and "the
boss' nephew got the job" are all somewhat interchangeable from the
candidate's perspective, but "we didn't think you could do the work" isn't.
For a company willing to provide information (and yes, most seem to be scared
of the legal issue), that's the most value-dense thing to provide.
------
rckclmbr
I got rejected from Netflix, and they gave me the best feedback I've ever
gotten after an interview. They said "Based on the interviews, we don't think
you could get done what we need to get done fast enough".
I disagreed with them, but that didn't matter. I looked back on the interview
and could see exactly why they thought that. That feedback helped me improve
for the future.
~~~
reagency
Was the interview about stuff they need to get done, or doofy puzzlers?
~~~
rckclmbr
Stuff they get done. It was a really good interview. Without going into too
much detail (NDA), I had a take-home project about a real world problem, then
there were a lot of questions about the project. Of course there are always
doofy puzzles too, but those weren't a focus.
The only thing I didn't like about the interview was that they compared
themselves with qualifying for the Olympics. That I should "consider it an
honor" because I made it to the interview, which is like making it to the
Olympic Trials. While I understand what they meant, I think it was a very
pompous statement.
~~~
Bartweiss
I've heard similar statements to that one, and never been pleased. I met
someone with Dropbox who spent much of our conversation telling me how they
only take the best (with extensive namedropping) and most applicants never
even get a return phonecall.
I think it was meant to draw me in by promising a selective team (he took my
resume), but it didn't work at all. It simply felt like he was bragging about
his own greatness (because he _did_ have a job there) while telling me they
would probably waste my time.
Even if the sentiment is good, any variant of "we're so great that failing is
still an honor" feels tacky and self-aggrandizing.
------
itsdrewmiller
Providing feedback is pretty hit or miss - if you give anything specific
enough to be constructive you also end up with people often wanting to argue
the particulars. The feedback examples here are pretty bad. "You don't have
enough experience" \- so you are going to hire him or her in two years once
they have gained experience? "You aren't a culture fit" \- why not? Is it
because he or she isn't a 20-something white male who likes video games and
beer?
The feedback I have tended to give is along the lines of "Our process has a
high chance of providing false negatives, so just because we are not offering
you a position doesn't mean we are convinced you are not qualified. On
[Programming Problem X] we felt that your code involved too much deep nesting
and the variable naming was poor; in an environment with many programmers that
is one of the most important things to do well. You also missed [Requirement
Y] which, while not critical for the functioning of the program, did show a
lack of attention to detail of the problem statement." And then they still
argue. :-)
If they are really horrible they get rejected in real time, and if it's late
in the process we have a conversation internally about how they managed to
make it so far.
~~~
klenwell
I think your first line is a great generic response and sufficient in itself:
_Our process has a high chance of providing false negatives, so just because
we are not offering you a position doesn 't mean we are convinced you are not
qualified._
I don't really care for the reason why I'm rejected. I'm deluded enough in my
own abilities to rationalize the reasons why you're making a huge mistake. :)
The main thing I want is a timely response. What drives me crazy is not
getting any response at all.
~~~
itsdrewmiller
That is something I didn't realize before but seems to be a common theme in
the comments here - So I learned at least one thing to do better from this
thread, even if it wasn't from the article. :-)
------
peter422
As somebody who has been rejected a few times (and been on the other side), I
completely disagree.
All I care about is speed. A boilerplate rejection in 1 day (or even that
night) is 10x better than a more specific email. Also the reasons given in the
example emails are so vague I think I would be more annoyed. Rejection sucks,
there is little an employer can do to lessen the blow other than do it
quickly, so as to avoid days of agony while the candidate waits.
------
eagsalazar2
I do tons of hiring and there is no way I would ever write rejections like
that. First of all if you are running a business and doing lots of hiring,
there is no way you have time to write that many long thoughtful emails that
refer to research you've done on their background, etc. Second, I highly doubt
any adult developer gives a crap.
The only thing people want (and appreciate in my experience) is hard, cold
facts about _exactly_ where they messed up so they can do better on subsequent
interviews. There is nothing that feels worse than failing and not feeling
empowered to succeed in the future. As lovey dovey as those examples are, they
don't do anything to help the person succeed in the immediate future which is
what really sucks about overly terse rejection emails.
~~~
barefoot
I completely agree. I would never write anything like the examples in the
article and would be very discouraged if I received any of those responses to
an interview I attended.
------
rpedela
Even though it is from a movie, I think this is better advice: "Do you want a
bullet to the head or five bullets to the chest and bleed to death?" [1]
If you want to add something about what to improve, I think that is fine too
but do it succinctly (not terse).
1\.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXEtOPMW2hM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXEtOPMW2hM)
~~~
overgard
Yeah I think that's much better advice. The problem with giving out reasons is
that there's a good chance your perception of them disagrees with their own
self perception, and so you run the risk of insulting them.
I remember years ago, one company I interviewed with ultimately didn't hire me
because "my experience was very strong in graphics and game development but
they needed more of a generalist". This was, I think, because my unix command
line skills were mediocre (At least that's where I flubbed the interview a
bit); but at the time they rejected me I was working in web development... so
it's not like I'm not adaptable. Anyway, the only reason that I even remember
that is because their rejection was _memorable_ , and it was memorable because
I thought they were _wrong_. Of course I didn't argue with them because their
minds were made up, but with this sort of decision you don't even want to
invite the possibility of debate IMO, you just want to give a yes or a no.
------
tslug
Thanks for your article suggesting a better way to reject peeps. It made a
good point, and I'm confident your hiring and rejecting career will be a
colourful one, but we're going to stick with being human and not over-
analyzing others' perceived shortcomings because we decided not to pull the
trigger on doing the money-in-exchange-for-services thing. Cheers!
------
brandonb
Yes! I wish more companies would do this. I wrote a little blog post on this
topic a couple years ago: [http://brandonb.cc/startups-stop-using-generic-
form-letters-...](http://brandonb.cc/startups-stop-using-generic-form-letters-
when-you-tell-a-candidate-no)
It's incredibly time-consuming to do well, so I cannot claim to hit the target
100% of the time, but I think it's worthwhile.
------
pithon
Writing, in general, is an activity that engineers usually put at the bottom
of the priority list but it's when you write that you actually organize your
thoughts and think things through. The process of writing the rejection email,
even if you don't actually send it, is likely to make you think about why
you're rejecting them, and formalize/ reinforce concepts and ideas to keep in
mind at the next interview.
------
patio11
I would not find it easy to operationalize the feedback regarding cultural
fit, either as a hypothetical jobseeker or as someone who theoretically knows
what "cultural fit" is supposed to mean, which I would not model the modal
jobseeker as understanding.
------
autotune
While this was interesting, what I'd love to hear about are the candidates
that were accepted who very obviously turned out to be a bad match within a
few months time, and how they adapted the interview process and questions as a
result.
------
kachnuv_ocasek
I'd hit delete on those messages after I'd have read the first sentence, which
is one sentence sooner that on the generic one. If you're a hiring manager,
please, don't post emails like this.
------
sosuke
I always thought they said nothing as a matter of liability.
~~~
lostcolony
Yeah, that's the explanation I've heard. "We don't feel you're a good fit at
this time" says nothing beyond 'no', and so there is nothing for a
particularly litigious candidate to use against the company. A more verbose
explanation, which would be appreciated by a majority of candidates, might
accidentally give them fodder for a lawsuit.
I'm actually curious how useful it would be though. I can only think of a
couple of times I've interviewed, and been genuinely curious why the company
decided not to continue with me. Most times it's been "-Wow-, that was a poor
fit", either culturally, or what they expected me to know, or how the position
was sold to me, or whatever (my favorite being an interview with Microsoft,
where the HR rep scheduling it said coding in Java would be fine, but then the
interviewer was predominantly a C guy, and so was telling me that my for(int
i=0; i<stringObj.length; i++) meant I was running in O(n^2) time, and my
having to correct him...yeah), and only one or two times left me curious what
their impressions were.
~~~
reagency
A litigous candidate would litigate based on the interview experience, not the
rejection letter, and then access to internal notes (where the illegal
discrimination happens) during legal discovery. The rejection letter is
irrelevant. I cases that win, do you think the HR rep said "sorry blackie, we
don't want your kind here"?
------
dominotw
I literally walked out of an interview at AirBnb in tears after the
humiliation. I've been so traumatized after that I've stopped looking for jobs
for over 3 years.
Only point of the idiotic BigO/whiteboard kind of interviews is to make the
interviewer feel good about himself/herself.
------
Bartweiss
Some of the emails you present are straightforward and useful - the second one
in particular I'd be happy to receive. If you feel like someone would be a
good fit after improving their skills in some specific area, that's a good
thing for the candidate to hear.
Others, though, feel downright insulting - especially the first email.
Praising someone's programming background, past projects, and eagerness to
_solve hard problems_ isn't an appropriate lead-in to telling them they failed
a technical interview. It's either vacuous (they weren't talented, but you
needed something to compliment) or back-handed (if their technical skills
weren't good, how can you actually respect their past projects?) That's just a
way to leave a candidate feeling worse about themselves and you.
Don't abandon this idea. I hugely value specific rejections, even blunt ones
like "You don't have the skills we need" or "You failed the second technical
interview". Just don't mix that with praising traits you're about to reject
someone for.
------
geofft
Do you have evidence that rejected candidates prefer this? That they find it
less insulting, instead of more? Do candidates take you up on your offer to
help with placement elsewhere?
All I see in defense of this approach in the article is "As a hiring manager,
I...". This isn't about you.
------
davesque
I tend to agree with others saying this is a bad idea. What I find the most
irritating and insulting is when someone primes me to have a discussion about
something (such as mentioning exactly what went wrong with the interview) and
then acts as though there's no room for debate. If I got a rejection email
like that, the first thing I'd want to do is write a reply detailing all the
different reasons the interviewers were either wrong or overly concerned with
the significance of my particular responses.
A lot of people are determined enough to start a debate about an interview.
Comparatively few companies are willing to engage in such a debate and they
shouldn't pretend otherwise.
------
nvader
All the examples in that article come across as instances of a "praise
sandwich" (also known by a less savoury name). The formula is, "We thought you
were good at X, BUT, we need someone also good at Y".
Perhaps it's the impact of reading them all back-to-back, but the insincerity
of that interstitial BUT begins to stand out. The impact of reading this
feedback is to discount the praise, and emphasize the gaps.
Given that, the feedback doesn't seem specific and actionable enough in most
cases. The last example in particular, I parse as [we appreciate your
interest, but your skills aren't good enough], which I'm struggling to read as
better than the standard template.
~~~
reagency
A feedback sandwich is:
1\. Congratulate for successes.
2\. Point out weaknesses to improve.
3\. Give encouragememt to keep working at it in future.
Plenty of people do it wrong and give BS feedback, but those people can put BS
in any form.
------
joe_the_user
The standard rejection, even more "thank you for your interest, while you have
excellent qualifications, we have chosen a different candidate" is fine.
The main thing is making the selection process _visibly_ fair and undemanding.
The rejections that are most annoying are those in which the employer has
candidates jump through numerous "hoops" and then rejects them, especially if
the rejection is "oh you passed the test but we don't think you fit the
culture" or something similar.
------
shaynbaron
Great topic! I try to put myself in the engineers shoes. I'd want to know why
they didn't pick me and how I could improve.
------
dyeje
Writing these emails does not seem productive. You say you spend at least a
half hour writing a draft, and you have someone else look over. That's alot of
valuable time spent on a response that is almost as vague as the canned one
liner.
Also, the cultural fit responses were worrisome.
------
BhavdeepSethi
I like the intent behind it. I don't like the verboseness of it. Would you
send this out to your own team? A simple "What worked, What didn't" with
bullet points would definitely be way more useful.
------
dblock
Author here. Old article, looking forward to reading your feedback!
~~~
jon-wood
Has your approach changed since posting that article? What's the feedback been
like from candidates that have received emails like that?
~~~
dblock
I still send detailed rejections and so does my entire team. We get a lot of
genuine thanks for doing so and some smaller amount of nothings meaning this
was either useless or the candidate got upset.
I try to minimize unnecessary praise and focus on actionable items. And I
always use written feedback as source.
------
brobdingnagian
There is no good rationalization for not hiring someone, because you cannot
empirically connect your hiring process to more objective measures of success.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Online Anonymity Box Puts You a Mile Away from Your IP Address - ca98am79
http://www.wired.com/2015/07/online-anonymity-box-puts-mile-away-ip-address/?mbid=nl_070115
======
noonespecial
I'm sure there's plenty of use cases for this... but I personally can't think
of anything I can do online that would make the authorities more dangerous to
me than dropping of an antenna laden, home-made looking spy-box at my local
coffee joint.
------
ikeboy
Posted recently
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9811218](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9811218)
------
jrcii
I'm not sure how this works, because 900 MHz is a ham band, the FCC forbids
encrypted communication over this frequency
~~~
ars
It is, but 900MHz is also used as the cordless phone band, and those are often
encrypted.
------
thoman23
Now you just need those face-morphing pills that Tom Cruise takes in Minority
Report to avoid being caught on video tape sneaking around your local public
library with some sort of transmogrifier-looking device.
~~~
spdub
Not quite the face-morphing pills you're looking for, but something to the
same effect [http://cvdazzle.com/](http://cvdazzle.com/)
------
siliconc0w
I'll stick with my motion-detector triggered thermite laced bitcoin bought
servers thank you very much.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
“Return of the Obra Dinn” Development Log - mercer
https://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=40832.0
======
sp332
I know it's in giant letters across the top, but because of "banner blindness"
I missed the link to the preview build:
[https://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=40832.msg123810...](https://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=40832.msg1238101#msg1238101)
It's short but it gives you a good idea of the main mechanic and the
aesthetic. Check out the settings menu to switch between multiple ways of
rendering the 1-bit graphics.
~~~
keyle
It was interesting, I missed a few things but highly recommend it for the
experience.
------
deepnet
When a lurking mathematician, Brent Werness, invents a sweet new type of
detail preserving dithering for Obra Dinn as a devlog comment.
[https://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=40832.msg121280...](https://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=40832.msg1212805#msg1212805)
~~~
tehrei
Another interesting way of dithering would be
[http://johanneskopf.de/publications/blue_noise/](http://johanneskopf.de/publications/blue_noise/)
but that might take away from the sought aesthetics.
~~~
deepnet
The game's author Lucas Pope compares the new dithering with blue noise here :
[https://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=40832.msg121719...](https://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=40832.msg1217196#msg1217196)
Visually Werness algorithm is the best, and Pope concludes: "What Werness
built is a hybrid between noise thresholding and progressive error
diffusion... he's turned the algorithm inside out - instead of spreading one
pixel's error to its neighbors, each pixel sucks up the error of its
neighbors... this affects a diffusion of the errors. "
------
sunkencity
big fan. just love this style / mac user since 1986.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ruth Porat Brings Wall Street Discipline to Google - gwallens
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-23/google-cfo-ruth-porat-brings-fiscal-discipline
======
pcurve
I'd be very curious to know from Googlers, at what cost this was achieved.
There is always price for everything. $65 billion wasn't pulled out of thin
air.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The Art of the Interpreter -- Steele and Sussman [pdf] - johnm
http://www.scribd.com/vacuum?url=ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/pdf/AIM-453.pdf
======
soundsop
This is the sort of ugly typesetting that spurred Knuth to create TeX.
~~~
cheponis
Is this your opinion, or do you have evidence of this (for example, have you
asked DK about this?)?
~~~
soundsop
I believe I read it in an interview.
------
anupamkapoor
i like the joke:
Guy Lewis Stelle Jr. - NSF Fellow
Gerald Jay Sussman - Jolly Good Fellow
------
mroman
Is it just me or is that "ipaper" an absolute POS?
Could not print, bookmark, select text . . . what is that good for? I mean
seriously, someone please enlighten me.
~~~
ed
Hi mroman,
I'm a developer over at Scribd and happen to work on iPaper. Although Adobe-
style bookmarking has not been implemented (PDF's intradocument links work
just fine), the inability to select text in this document is not an iPaper
limitation. It just so happens that this PDF contains no text data, just hi-
res raster versions of each page.
As for printing, I was able to print just fine in FF on a PC (once the 10+ MB
file had finished downloading). Would you mind emailing me at the address in
my profile with your environment info so we can try to replicate your issue?
Thanks!!
Ed
~~~
mroman
Hi Ed,
I just emailed you my environment info.
I was referring to bookmarking the page in my browser favorites.
Right. No text data. Personally, I find a text version of a document to be
indispensable.
I actually waited for the download to complete, and was still unable to print.
First time I have ever had that problem.
What would be wrong with ditching iPaper altogether? Personally, I would
convert the document to HTML, and provide links to download or view both the
.pdf version as well as a plain vanilla text version.
That is just me though. I do appreciate your post however.
Maurice
~~~
chrisbroadfoot
To convert the document to HTML, you'd need to do OCR, and then some more
formatting...
~~~
mroman
I don't doubt it . . .
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Sharing Fortune Android Game Source Code - dm991
https://github.com/dm-notroll/fortune-game-android
======
dm991
Feel free to download and unzip, this is source code of a very famous app of
the biggest company in Japan.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Battle for the Internet - anigbrowl
https://www.battleforthenet.com/
======
Clanan
Can someone please respond to the actual pro-repeal arguments (in a non-John-
Oliver-smug way)? Everyone is focusing on "woe is the unfree internet!" which
seems like a spoonfed, naive response with no content. And just having Google
et. al. on one side isn't enough of a reason, given their motivations. The
given reasons for the current FCC's actions appear to be:
1\. The Title II Regs were designed during the Great Depression to address Ma
Bell and don't match the internet now.
2\. The FCC isn't the right vehicle for addressing anti-competitive behavior
in this case; the FTC would be better.
3\. The internet didn't need fixing in 2010 when the regs were passed.
~~~
throwawayjava
Could someone make a pro-repeal argument that doesn't boil down to caring more
about which bureaucrat enforces the rules than the rules themselves?
Seriously, the whole FTC vs FCC thing is deeply confusing to me. I mean, WTF?
I've never seen the public care so much about a battle over jurisdiction
between two federal agencies. For this reason, I suspect it's all a bullshit
red herring tactic -- the FCC is stripped of power to enforce net neutrality
because "the FTC should do it", but then FTC's hands are also tied. Suddenly
you can deregulate without actually making a _substantive_ argument for
deregulation.
~~~
CWuestefeld
I'll jump in and take the hate.
Reddit is framing the issue like this: _Net neutrality ensures that the free
market—not big cable—picks the winners and losers_
This seems like double-think to me. The net neutrality regulations actually
prevent me from negotiating an agreement that models my priorities. It forces
me to accept everything one-size-fits-all, explicitly preventing a
differentiated market from developing in the commodity of bandwidth.
There are a couple of examples where I think this is relevant.
1) I imagine a hospital that performs surgery via telepresence. This seems a
pretty clear area where I would really _want_ the opportunity to pay more, to
ensure that the connection between the surgeon and his robot never even
suffers the slightest amount of jitter. This is life-and-death, and I can't
see why people would object to a right to pay more for higher-priority for
this traffic.
2) A few years ago I recall reading about a cell phone provider who wanted to
provide a very basic service level that would allow free use of Facebook and a
couple of other apps, but going outside of that narrow box would cost much
more. Providing to poor people a way that they can participate in the online
community seems like a positive, even if what they get is rather hobbled. The
idea that we would say to them, "no, you're not allowed to save your money by
buying a lower level of service; if you can't afford the whole enchilada, you
can't have anything" seems awfully unfair.
~~~
losteric
> This seems like double-think to me. The net neutrality regulations actually
> prevent me from negotiating an agreement that models my priorities. It
> forces me to accept everything one-size-fits-all, explicitly preventing a
> differentiated market from developing in the commodity of bandwidth.
There are downstream effects on consumers and websites which lead to the same
problem eating away at our democracy: the people with money get
disproportionate representation.
#2: This is a slippery slope that prevents the market from adjusting to
provide a cheaper/lower-quality service. If people cannot pay $5/m for
internet access, the answer isn't to give them access to a monopolized walled
garden that extracts value from their mere presence - the answer is to offer a
lower level of service for $1/m.
#1: Same as above. The ISP and hospital are absolutely free to pay for higher
qualities of service. This isn't new - 10 years ago I could buy business-level
DSL with stable latency.
I think you're confusing tiered access to the internet versus tiered access to
specific websites.
Assuming you have 10mbit internet access for $N/month:
* Paying +$20/m for 100mbit internet: OK
* Paying +$20/m for 100mbit access to "Top 100 websites": Not OK
* Receiving 10mbit access to Youtube and 1mbit access to Vimeo: Not OK (neither is receiving 100mbit youtube/10mbit vimeo)
~~~
794CD01
What's the point of having more money if you can't spend it on better goods
and services? We don't have car neutrality laws to prevent rich people from
paying more for Ferraris.
~~~
int_handler
That's not a valid comparison. Different websites can and already charge
different amounts of money for their services. However, we do not have Premium
Luxury Highways where rich people can drive their Ferraris at 100 MPH while
regular plebs sit in traffic all day.
~~~
794CD01
Toll highways and carpool lanes basically are what you describe. Yes, people
hire strangers to sit in their car to use the carpool lane.
~~~
losteric
Toll highways are the exception, not the norm.
They are also a little different because they are part of the network - your
isp deals with peering with other ISPs, and some ISPs do charge more... That
price is reflected in what the consumer and end host pay for service.
------
drucik
I don't get why I see arguments like 'Oh, why would it matter, its not neutral
anyway' or 'it won't change anything' and no one tries to explain why allowing
an end of net neutrality would be bad. I would say the reason why net
neutrality is important is the following:
'On paper' the end of net neutrality will mean that big companies like google
or facebook (which, according to the website, do not support net neutrality
[why would they, right?]) will pay the ISPs for priority connection to their
service, and ISPs will be able to create 2 payment plans for their customers -
throttled network and high-speed, super unthrottled network for some premium
money. And some people are fine with that - 'it's their service' or 'i only
use email so i don't care' or other things like that.
But we are living in a capitalism world and things aren't that nice. If it is
not illegal to slow down connections 'just because', I bet in some (probably
short) time companies will start abusing it to protect their markets and their
profits. I'd expect under the table payments, so the company F or B will be
favored by a given ISP, and you can forget about startups trying to shake up
the giants.
~~~
treebeard901
Something that is not mentioned often is the combined effect of losing net
neutrality and the recent decision to let the ISPs sell your advertising data.
It's a two pronged attack on the internet. The ISPs data collection is going
to be more valuable than Facebook or Google simply because they have
everything and most importantly the ISPs can verify physical identities.
So internet ad revenue is being attacked from one angle and then they are
extorting money for packet delivery on the other.
~~~
mtgx
Another reason for all web developers to encrypt their websites.
~~~
losteric
That helps, but not entirely. The metadata of which sites you're visiting is
still valuable advertising information - especially when browsing through a
phone (geolocation).
------
d3sandoval
If your internet browser were a hearing aid, the information coming in would
be sound - whether that's your husband or wife asking you to do the dishes, a
ring at your doorbell, or even an advertisement on the radio.
now imagine if that hearing aid wasn't neutral in how it handled sound.
imagine if, when the advertisement played on the radio, it would be louder
than all other sounds around. at that time, you might miss an important call,
maybe your wife just said "I love you", or perhaps there's a fire in the other
room that you are now not aware of, because clorox wipes demanded your full
attention.
without net neutrality, we lose the ability to chose our own inputs. our
provider, our hearing aid, gets to choose for us. this could mean slower video
downloads for some, if they're using a competitor's streaming service for
instance, but it could also mean the loss of vital information that the
provider is not aware even exists.
By rejecting Title II recommendations, the FCC will introduce a whole new set
of prioritization problems, where consumers no longer have the ability to
decide which information is most important to them. and, if the provider goes
so far as to block access to some information entirely, which it very well
could without Title II protections, consumers would be at risk of missing
vital information - like a fire in the house or their husband saying "I love
you"
~~~
shawn-butler
Poor analogy.
Hearing aids do discriminate and are quite programmable to be adjusted to the
needs of the user usually by an audiologist who works with the patient to
understand what sounds they want to hear (and it changes over time)
~~~
nthcolumn
That may be but I thought it was an excellent analogy. I don't think he is
really concerned with imparting information about how hearing aids actually
work, it is just a device.
~~~
shawn-butler
Then you don't really understand how analogies work. And he isn't imparting
any useful information just talking points.
[https://literarydevices.net/analogy/](https://literarydevices.net/analogy/)
~~~
pc86
Wow there's very little need to be an asshole.
------
pedrocr
I fully support the net neutrality argument, it seems like a no brainer to me.
However I find it interesting that companies like Netflix and Amazon who
heavily differentiate in which devices you can have which video quality[1]
will then argue that ISPs shouldn't be able to differentiate which services
should have which transport quality.
The situation seems completely analogous to me. I'm paying my ISP for a
connection and it thinks it should be able to restrict which services I use on
top of it. I'm paying a content provider for some shows/movies and it thinks
it should be able to restrict which device I use to view them.
The argument for regulation also seems the same. ISPs don't have effective
competition because physical infrastructure is a natural monopoly. Content
providers also don't have effective competition because content access is also
a natural monopoly because of network effects (right now there are 2-3
relevant players _worldwide_ ).
[1] Both of them heavily restrict which devices can access 4K content. Both of
them make it very hard to have HD from non-standard devices. Netflix even
makes it hard to get 1080p on anything that isn't the absolute mainstream
(impossible on Linux for example).
~~~
colde
I think there is a huge difference here. First of all, the restriction on 4K
has a lot more to do with technical limitations than anything else. Very few
devices can actually handle 4K. While your laptops screen might be able to
handle it, your browser might not be able to decode h.265 at all, and might
not be fast enough to decode h.264 at 4K resolutions.
As someone who works on a video streaming service for similar type of content.
I see this policy as a help to consumers more than restrictions, simply
because they ensure they only allow 4K where they are fairly certain it works.
Secondly, if Netflix doesn't provide you the service you need, you can switch
to Amazon, or Hulu or any of a number of providers. If your ISP doesn't
provide you a service without restrictions, plenty of people have no recourse.
It isn't unusual for natural monopoly industries to be more heavily regulated.
~~~
pedrocr
>I think there is a huge difference here. First of all, the restriction on 4K
has a lot more to do with technical limitations than anything else. Very few
devices can actually handle 4K. While your laptops screen might be able to
handle it, your browser might not be able to decode h.265 at all, and might
not be fast enough to decode h.264 at 4K resolutions.
The exact same setup (Chrome on this Linux laptop) works just fine with 4K
youtube streams. Yet both Netflix and Amazon have restrictions for 4K where it
basically only works with closed set-top box type devices. There's no
reasonable technical motivation for the restriction.
>Secondly, if Netflix doesn't provide you the service you need, you can switch
to Amazon, or Hulu or any of a number of providers.
There isn't "any number of providers". For relevant content my two options
right now are Netflix and Prime Video, there is no third.
>If your ISP doesn't provide you a service without restrictions, plenty of
people have no recourse. It isn't unusual for natural monopoly industries to
be more heavily regulated.
While I only have 2 choices, and those are the same two worldwide, I easily
have 3 good ISP choices and those are local to each market, so worldwide there
are hundreds or thousands. That's exactly my point. Worldwide the neutrality
in content access is probably more important as it is a _much_ more
consolidated industry.
~~~
twunde
Can I ask where you live that you have 3! good ISP choices?
~~~
pedrocr
I'm in Portugal but it's probably common throughout Europe. In urban areas
having at least 2 and often 3 providers that can give you a reasonably priced
50 or 100Mb/s connection is common these days. Rural areas are harder but it's
actually improving a bit. I've recently been upgraded from a flakey 8Mb/s ADSL
with <1Mb/s upload to 100Mb/s symmetrical over fiber in an agricultural area
where previously there wasn't much competition between ISPs. I think the
combination of LTE offerings and cheaper fiber technology may have tipped the
scales making a simple fibre installation on existing telephone poles an
attractive proposition for the ISP.
~~~
Vendan
Yeah, in the US, you usually get a "choice" of: cable, dsl or dialup. Dsl
can't usually do better then 5/1 (anywhere I've lived, at least). And the
cable companies pretty much have split the country between themselves. Only 1
truly high speed isp is not a choice!
~~~
krallja
Where have you lived? I've had AT&T U-Verse (DSL) in Indianapolis, Chicago,
and Greensboro, with speeds of 18/1.5 and 40/6.
------
marcoperaza
John Oliver, College Humor, and some comedian are featured heavily. You're
going to need to do more than give liberal millennials something to feel smug
about, if you actually want to win this political battle.
I don't know where I stand on net neutrality, but this is certainly not going
to convince me.
~~~
wvenable
This single image is really all you need:
[http://www.wordstream.com/images/what-is-net-neutrality-
isp-...](http://www.wordstream.com/images/what-is-net-neutrality-isp-package-
diagram.jpg)
~~~
ericras
That image has existed for years now. But even without government Net
Neutrality regulation... it hasn't happened!
~~~
laughinghan
We do have Net Neutrality regulation, but it's under threat of repeal. That's
what this article and the gray bar at the top of Hacker News are about.
------
eriknstr
Very recently I bought an iPhone and a subscription that includes 4G service.
With this subscription I have 6 GB of traffic per month anywhere in EU, BUT
any traffic to Spotify is unmetered, and I don't know quite how to feel about
this. On one side it's great having unlimited access to all the music in
Spotify at any time and any place within the whole of EU, but on the other
side I worry that I am helping damage net neutrality.
Now Spotify, like Netflix and YouTube and a lot of other big streaming
services, almost certainly has edge servers placed topologically near to the
cell towers. I think this is probably ok. In order to provide streaming
services to a lot of people you are going to need lots of servers and
bandwidth no matter what, and when you do you might as well work with the ISPs
to reduce the cost of bandwidth as much as possible by placing out servers at
the edges. So IMO Spotify is in a different market entirely from anyone who
hasn't got millions or billions of dollars to spend, and if you have that
money it should be no more difficult for you to place edge servers at the ISPs
than it was for them.
But the unmetered bandwith deal might be harmful to net neutrality, maybe?
~~~
r3bl
Of course it's harmful!
We have a similar thing in our region (Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia). Mobile
operators give you access to a couple of services unmetered, and you spend
your data for other. As long as you can't choose the services you want to be
unmetered, I consider these packages anti-NN.
This works in your specific advantage since you've probably already been using
Spotify previously. If you were an Apple Music / Google Play Music subscriber,
and were forced to switch to Spotify, it wouldn't be ideal for you, would it?
I even took things a bit further. About two dozens of websites from the region
(so, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia) either shut down, or displayed a static message
about the harmfulness of such data packets today. It's kind of a small support
towards Battle for the Net and their action, but our goal was more to spread
awareness and start a story than to ask for a specific action (like sending
comments to the FCC).
It's not as big as Battle for the Net, it's mostly me and the websites I
already had a previous affiliation with (posted articles previously and things
like that), but I had $0 budget, a steady job + other obligations, and was
basically able to spend <2 hours per day convincing websites to shut down for
a day.
All in all, I consider my own project a success.
No point in sharing the link in an English forum, but in case there's someone
from the region interested in it, and in case you really feel helpless outside
of the US, here's an example of what you can do. This is not a local fight,
this is a global fight against the ISP fuckery:
[https://netneutralnost.com/](https://netneutralnost.com/)
~~~
dis-sys
I don't see how providing unmetered Spotify is "forcing" any Apple Music /
Google Play Music subscriber to switch. You can freely choose to ignore the
unmetered services and continue to use whatever other services you choose.
~~~
r3bl
Okay, let me put it this way:
You have three competitors: A, B, and C. They all pretty much accomplish the
same thing. Your ISP cooperates with A to give it a privileged position
(unmetered connection).
If you're a subscriber to B and C, you can't use your service of choice under
the same conditions as those who use the service A. Therefore, you can either
switch to A, or pay more data to use your preferred service (B or C).
As long as you can't choose the service that's going to be unmetered, Spotify
has a privileged position compared to its competitors for the users of that
ISP.
~~~
dis-sys
No, I disagree.
For your mentioned services B and C for which you are subscriber, you have
been paying for the data usage, you are free to use them in the future with
the exact same conditions/charges. If A enters some agreements with the
ISP/carrier you choose to give you unmetered access, you are not put into any
disadvantaged position, because you are not paying extra, you only get an
option to use A's free traffic or pay the current same amount for services
from B and C.
It should also be pointed out that services A, B and C you described above are
not "pretty much accomplish the same thing", A managed to reach this agreement
to foot a part of your traffic bill, B and C refused to somehow pay your
carrier to match the same level of service currently offered by A. There is a
huge difference here.
~~~
lucozade
I agree with you. From my POV this isn't a net neutrality issue. This is a
promotional offer.
It would be a net neutrality issue if the ISP blocked B and C as services so
you were forced to only use A if you wanted music streaming. Or similarly, if
music streaming services were penalised for bandwidth to the point of being
unusable.
For me, net neutrality isn't about not making one service better. I have no
particular issue with that. It's about not making services unusable.
~~~
zepolen
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog)
\- that's you mate.
------
_nedR
Where were the protests, blackouts, outrage and calls for action from these
companies (Google, Amazon, Netflix) when the Internet privacy bill was being
repealed? I'll tell you where they were - In line outside Comcast and Verizon,
eagerly waiting to buy our browsing histories.
We had their back the last time net neutrality issue came around (lets be
honest, their business depends on a neutral net). But they didn't do the same
for us. Screw them.
~~~
zer0tonin
Google probably knows even more about our browsing history than ISPs.
~~~
aembleton
Yep, they've got my desktop, work machine and mobile phone browsing history.
My ISP has just got my desktop, and my mobile phone when I'm at home.
------
franciscop
As a foreigner who deeply cares about the web, what can I do to help? For good
or for bad, USA decisions on the Internet spread widely around the world.
"Benign" example: the mess before UTF8, malign example: DRM and copyright
fight.
Note: Besides spreading the word; I do not know so many Americans
~~~
dsr_
Act locally. Do you live in Spain? Talk to your legislators about passing
strong net neutrality laws like the Netherlands. You have weak net neutrality
from the EU, but you can do better.
~~~
franciscop
Sorry I chuckled a bit when thinking about Spanish government listening at all
and then acting on some pro-people policy. The Spanish government have
relatives in the bigger corporations, it's called "puertas giratoria"
(revolving doors), just look at the lists:
[https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerta_giratoria_(pol%C3%ADtic...](https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerta_giratoria_\(pol%C3%ADtica\))
. Current government has strong ties with the biggest ISP in Spain
(Telefónica/Movistar).
Luckily we have something different going on; it's legal to share 3rd party
content among people, so Copyright for individuals basically doesn't apply and
torrenting is pretty much legal (though you might be taken to court anyway).
But Net Neutrality as it depends on the ISP just _does not make sense_ , it's
not a matter of whether it's possible or not. Also, people have much more
urgent things to fight for; if someone wants to do something about the
Internet in Spain the fight is right now around copyright (we're trying not to
lose this due to US influence).
~~~
dsr_
Then by all means, fight for what is most urgent in your country.
------
superasn
This is great. I think the letter textarea should also be empty.
Instead there can be a small wizard with questions like "why is net neutrality
important to you", etc with a guideline on what to write.
This way each letter will be a differently expressed opinion instead of every
person sending the same thing and may create more impact.
~~~
thebaer
The EFF has a nice site set up exactly that way:
[https://dearfcc.org](https://dearfcc.org)
------
agentgt
I have often thought the government should provide an alternative option for
critical service just like they do with the mail and now health insurance
(ignoring current politics).
That is I think the net neutrality issue could be mitigated or non issue if
there were say a US ISP that operates anywhere where there is a telephones
poles and public towers analogous to the United States Postal service (USPS).
Just like the roads (postal service) the government pseudo owns the telephone
poles and airways (FTC) so they should be able to force their way in.
I realize this is not as free market as people would like but I would like to
see the USPS experiment attempted some more particularly in highly leverage-
able industries.
~~~
pedrocr
The problem with that is that the alternative will be a minimal solution, so
your choices will be crappy state service or non-neutral ISP service that's
good enough for you not to care but still sub-optimal. Here's what I believe
is a better regulatory solution that makes the free market work properly
without needing the state to build inneficiency by duplicating services that
the private sector is willing to supply:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7644339](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7644339)
~~~
tw04
>so your choices will be crappy state service
Says who? There are co-ops all across the country that run fiber to the home
and provide a far superior service than 99% of the ISPs out there today.
At the end of the day, the only _REAL_ solution is for government to own the
last mile. Run single-mode fiber to every household in the US, run that back
to a centralized pop and allow ISPs to attach to that pop to provide service.
The cost of last-mile is no longer a barrier to entry for new ISPs, people
will end up with more choice and better service, and we can stop having
ridiculous fights over access to utility poles that never should've had more
than one line strung in the first place.
Given that the government could run fiber when building new paved roads and it
wouldn't even be a rounding error... it seem ludicrous to me we aren't already
doing this.
~~~
pedrocr
Your suggestions solves a different problem, the lack of competition giving
you crappy (but potentially still net neutral) internet service. It only
solves the neutrality problem if enough people care to switch providers
because of it. Considering the general apathy towards that problem I wouldn't
bet on it. See my proposal for a market solution for that. Personally I think
we should do both to solve both problems.
------
melq
The form on this page requires you to submit your personal information for use
by third parties. I refreshed the page 3 times and saw 3 different notices:
"Fight for the Future willcontact you about future campaigns." "Demand
Progress willcontact you about future campaigns." "FreePress willcontact you
about future campaigns."
No opt out, no thank you.
~~~
tibetsprague
You can actually opt out through the widget which will pop up if you go here:
[https://www.battleforthenet.com/july12/](https://www.battleforthenet.com/july12/)
------
webXL
It saddens me to see HN jump on the bandwagon of an anti-free-market campaign
such as this. Words such as "battle" and "fight" have no place when coming up
with solutions to problems in a market economy. I know government and its
history of cronyism are a big part of the problem, but to think that more
regulation will make everything better is woefully misguided. How did it come
to pass that there's so little trust and understanding in the system of
voluntary, peaceful, free trade that has produced virtually all of the wealth
we see around us? Sure there are tons of problems, but I'm sure you'll agree
that they pale in comparison to those of state-run economies.
The mistrust of large corporations is definitely warranted. McDonald's doesn't
give a rat's ass about your health as long as you're healthy _and happy_
enough keep coming back. And the reason why people come back is because
McDonald's _knows_ they have options; enough so that we all have it pretty
good dietary-wise. Consumers and suppliers don't need to organize protests and
boycotts of fast-food chains. Likewise, I don't think the major ISPs give a
rat's ass about our choice/speed of content, so long as we're _happy enough_
to not jump to another provider. As with food vendors, more choice, not more
regulation, is the answer. The market should determine what it wants; not
bureaucrats under the influence of large corporations.
~~~
caseydurfee
Having regulations doesn't turn this country into a "state-run economy". Is
America currently a state-run economy because of the existence of the FDA, the
USDA, etc? What are these countries you believe have no regulations, and have
"produced virtually all the wealth we see around us"?
"so little trust and understanding"
Assuming smugly that people who disagree with you don't understand how
capitalism works is childish and totally out of line.
In general, please try to make your point in a way that doesn't assume people
who disagree with you are ignorant or stupid. Nobody here is saying that
regulation makes everything better. It's a strawman.
------
exabrial
Hey guys,
The Trump administration expressed interest in having the FTC regulate ISPs.
Does it really matter who enforces net neutrality as long as we have it?
It's not secret that ISPs have local monopolies, and that's an area of
expertise the FTC has successfully regulated in the past (look at how the Gas
station economy works).
It's really time to move past the 2016 election and put petty political
arguments aside. We're failing because we're divided. I beg everyone to please
stop being smug, and push collaboration with the powers that be rather than
confrontation.
~~~
anigbrowl
Concerns that seem petty to you seem of existential importance to others.
Surely you have noticed that there's a trust deficit in the political economy
of late. Also, I don't agree with your implicit point that political activity
should be limited to participation in elections, especially given the way a
good part of the population is structurally barred from doing so.
------
kuon
I'm fully in favor of net neutrality, but I am not against premium plans for
some content.
For example let's say I have a 50/20Mb internet. I should be able to browse
the entire internet at that speed. But, if I want to pay extra to have like
100Mb with QoS only from netflix, I am not against this kind of service.
~~~
Paul-ish
Whats to prevent ISPs from starving out the whole internet package to force
people into buying additions?
~~~
cheald
What's the prevent ISPs from reducing their bandwidth offerings across the
board to force people into buying more?
My local ISP could triple their prices or slash their bandwidth offerings and
I'd have no choice but to pay it or not have internet. They could - very
neutrally - extract very large amounts of money from me because of how
valuable internet access is to me. That isn't a neutrality issue, that's a
lack-of-alternatives issue, and before Title II is mentioned, the FCC
reclassification _explicitly_ specifies that the rate regulation clauses of
Title II are subject to forbearance (ie, not applicable).
------
bluesign
Why not make barrier of entry easy for other/new ISPs by forcing them to share
infrastructure for a fee, and then allow them to tier/price as much as they
want?
~~~
tertius
Public ownership is where this ends up at.
~~~
bluesign
Actually with good regulations, there is not much need for public ownership
(although it is the ideal in theory)
~~~
tertius
Public ownership leads to slow or no innovation. Please let this not happen
with data infrastructure.
I would argue that Congress needs to act, FCC shouldn't be in this.
------
redm
I see everyone framing this conversation around Comcast charging customers to
access websites. I feel that's just a talking point, not the real meat of the
issue.
Regarding Backbones:
If I recall correctly, this originally came about over a peering dispute
between Level 3's network and Netflix. The internet backbones work on
settlement-free or paid to peer. When there is an imbalance, the party with
the imbalance pays. When there is the balance, no one pays. This system has
worked well for a very long time.
Regarding Personal Internet Access:
Consumer Internet connections are overbooked, meaning you may have the 100Mb
link to the ISP but the ISP doesn't have the capacity for all users to use
100Mb at the same time. In short, they aren't designed for all users to be
using high capacity at the same time. These networks expect users using bursts
of capacity. This is why tech like BitTorrent has been an issue too.
There is a fundamental shift occurring where users are consuming far more
network capacity per user because of technology like Netflix. I know I'm
streaming 4k Netflix :D
------
elbrodeur
Hey everyone! My name is Aaron and I'm on the team that helped put together
some of the digital tools that are making this day of action possible. If you
find any issues please let us know here or here:
[https://github.com/fightforthefuture/battleforthenet](https://github.com/fightforthefuture/battleforthenet)
------
Pigo
It's very disheartening that this is a battle that doesn't seem to end. They
are just going to keep bringing proposals in hopes that one time there won't
be enough noise to scare politicians, or worse the politicians are already in
pocket just waiting for the opposition level to be at a minimum. The
inevitability vibe is growing.
------
sexydefinesher
*the American internet
Meanwhile the EU already has laws for Net Neutrality (though zero-rating is
still allowed).
------
polskibus
That's a great illustration of what happens when you let the market be owned
by only several entities. Long time ago, there were more, with time
centralization happened and now you have to bow to the survivors.
Similar situation but at an earlier stage can be observed on the Cloud horizon
- see Google, AMZN, MS, and maybe FB. They own so much traffic, mindshare and
sales power, in theory they are not monopolies, but together their policies
and trends they generate shape the internet world.
I'm not saying this current situation with Verizon et al is OK, just saying
that if you intend to fix it, consider addressing the next centralization that
is still happening.
------
mnm1
Are Google, FB, Amazon, and others actually supporting this and if so, how? I
don't see anything on their sites about this. As far as I'm concerned, they're
not doing anything to support this. And of course, why would they?
~~~
tibetsprague
Amazon does have a Net Neutrality info box on their home page, but not super
prominent. Google and Facebook say they are supporting but I haven't seen much
from them.
~~~
mnm1
Really? I don't see it. Neither 'net' nor 'neutrality' are words on their home
page. There isn't a graphic about it. There is nothing about it. (I'm looking
at the logged out page.)
------
_eht
All I can find are arguments for neutrality, it seems like a very vocal crowd
full of businesses who currently make a lot of money from people on the
internet (reddit, Facebook, et al).
Anyone want to share resources or their pro priority internet stance?
~~~
newloop
I can't really say I'm against net neutrality, but like many Internet issues I
think the debate is sloppy and full of assumptions. I think there are at least
a few arguments against net neutrality.
1\. The Internet isn't neutral to being with. To get connected to the Internet
an ISP, especially a smaller one, will have to buy transit. But can also make
peering agreements with other, often local, ISPs and large services like
Google or Facebook. In reality, depending how things are connected, your
connection speed will vary regardless based on business decisions. Net
neutrality leaves those decisions up to, other, big players like large (tier
1) ISPs, cloud providers and big services instead of consumer ISPs.
2\. The real problem isn't net neutrality, but competition between consumer
ISPs. Net neutrality restricts the business model for ISPs even when there
competition. Many consumers might actually just want news, social media,
software updates, some streaming services and limited access to the open
Internet. Yet, they are forced to pay for the rest of the traffic and
infrastructure.
3\. I used be a nice idea that the Internet was open and that most nodes where
equal, but that isn't really the case anymore. There's a number big players
with huge influence over Internet technology that makes a lot of money. While
consumers pay just to access the Internet, don't get static ip addresses and
limited upstream traffic. Internet protocols have not kept up with reality and
hosting your own services are challenging with the prevalence of ddos, spam,
ransomware, exploits etc. You can argue that the big services that makes a lot
of money should today be, or at least have the possibility to be, paying more.
Especially since they enjoy economy of scale.
~~~
Magnets
>Many consumers might actually just want news, social media, software updates,
some streaming services and limited access to the open Internet. Yet, they are
forced to pay for the rest of the traffic and infrastructure.
But it's a level playing field because all ISPs face the same problem.
~~~
newloop
While I wouldn't necessarily say that it's a level playing field (as large
networks have huge advantages), this particular issue is more about consumer
choice. That you can't, essentially, buy a laptop without Windows isn't a
problem for laptop manufacturers, but it is for consumers.
------
pycal
There's truth found in Ajit's comment, that Americans' internet infrastructure
just isn't as good as other countries. Is that because of the regulatory
climate? The ISPs receive a lease on the public spectrum; are they expected to
meet a minimum service level of quality?
According to this source, the US rates low in many categories of internet
access i.e. % of people over 4mbit, and average bandwidth:
[https://www.fastmetrics.com/internet-connection-speed-by-
cou...](https://www.fastmetrics.com/internet-connection-speed-by-country.php)
~~~
yellowapple
There are two possible explanations of which I can think:
\- The United States is a large country in terms of geographic area, which
makes it harder to deploy and maintain high-speed networks unless you're
already sitting on top of a major fiber backbone (and even then).
\- The ISPs have no reason to improve things, since their local near-monopoly
statuses means that customers have no choice but to pay for slow speeds. This
is especially severe in rural areas. There are options like satellite and
cellular, but both are heavily affected by local geography, and the former has
pretty significant latency issues (making it less-than-ideal for, say, VoIP)
while also being pretty expensive (satellites ain't cheap).
------
callinyouin
I hope I'm not alone in saying that if we lose net neutrality I'll be looking
to help organize and set up a locally owned/operated ISP in my area.
------
sergiotapia
"Net neutrality" sounds good but it's just more and more laws to regulate and
censor the internet via the FCC.
~~~
peterhadlaw
It's also much easier to switch ISPs than governments
------
leesalminen
I'm currently unable to submit the form on
[https://www.battleforthenet.com/](https://www.battleforthenet.com/).
[https://queue.fightforthefuture.org/action](https://queue.fightforthefuture.org/action)
is returning HTTP 500.
~~~
tibetsprague
Hey I'm one of the developers, we've been working hard to keep it up but have
had a few short outages due to crazy volume. It's working now!
~~~
leesalminen
Thanks! I was able to submit.
------
AndyMcConachie
Just to be clear, this has nothing to do with the Internet, and everything to
do with the USA. Most Internet users can't be affected by stupid actions of
the FCC.
I guess I'm just a little annoyed that Americans think their Internet
experience somehow represents 'the' Internet experience.
~~~
thirdsun
In my opinion it's rather naive to think that the development in the US won't
have any effect on the internet for global users.
The user "bicubic" expressed it very well in another comment [1] in this
discussion, so let me just repeat that:
> American internet has a very strong and direct impact on 'international'
> internet. Aside from the fact that a large fraction of international traffic
> passes through American switches or servers, America is a policy leader to
> many other nations - both passively and actively. Passively by signalling to
> telcos in other nations that they could probably attempt the same thing, and
> actively by forcing some of these provisions as part and parcel of trade
> agreements. You just can't pretend that the impact these decisions will be
> isolated to the US.
[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14751274](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14751274)
~~~
rocky1138
As John Gilmore said "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes
around it." If America decides to fuck up their portion of the Internet, we
will move those important services off-shore and build links around it. It
won't be broken for long.
~~~
AndyMcConachie
Correct. This NN argument is essentially about whether or not the future US
economy wants to shoot itself in the head or not.
------
mbonzo
Ah, seems like this battle is just a part of the bigger war that is the ugly
side of capitalism. The top companies that Millennials are raving about are
threatening old companies, and as a result those old companies are making a
pact to bring their rivals down.
Examples include Airbnb; the business is now being banned by cities like New
York city, New Orleans, Santa Monica and countless others. Another is Uber;
it's banned in Texas, Alaska, Oregon (except Portland), and more. Now it's our
beloved, favorite websites that are being targeted by Internet Providers.
Who do you think will win this war?
------
steve_taylor
This website gives me the impression that this is the latest cause that the
left has repurposed as something they can beat us over the head with. The
video thumbnails look like a gallery of the who's who of the left. This is
disappointing, because this is an issue for all of us. People are sick and
tired of the left beating them over the head with various causes and tend to
rebel against them regardless of their merit. We shouldn't lose our internet
freedoms over a petty culture war that has nothing to do with this.
------
scott_s
I feel like this site is missing context - what recent events have caused all
of these organizations to protest? I found this NY Times article gave me a
better idea of this context: "F.C.C. Chairman Pushes Sweeping Changes to Net
Neutrality Rules", [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/26/technology/net-
neutrality...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/26/technology/net-
neutrality.html)
------
untangle
I wouldn't care so much about net neutrality if there was open access to the
last-mile conduit for broadband to my house. But there isn't. Comcast owns the
coax and there is no fiber here (even though I live in the heart of Silicon
Valley).
Comcast is conflicted on topics from content to voice service. So neutering
net neutrality is tantamount to deregulating a monopoly. That doesn't sound
smart to me.
------
forgottenpass
Let me see if I have this right. The complaint against ISPs goes like this:
They established themselves as dominant middlemen and want to leverage that
position to enable new revenue streams by putting their nose where it doesn't
belong.
I'd have much more sympathy for belly-aching tech companies if they weren't
all doing (or trying to do) the same goddamn thing.
------
joekrill
Is this form broken for anyone else? I'm getting CORS errors when it tries to
submit to
[https://queue.fightforthefuture.org/action](https://queue.fightforthefuture.org/action).
That seems like a pretty big blunder, so I'm guessing maybe the site is just
under heavy load?
~~~
jmknoll
Yeah, broken for me as well. Start of the workday on the East Coast and a lot
of people submitting forms? I hope that's the case at least.
~~~
tibetsprague
One of the developers here, sorry about that, it should be fixed now! The good
news is we are getting swamped :)
------
web007
I can't help but feel like the site would be more effective if they removed
[https://www.battleforthenet.com/how-we-
won/](https://www.battleforthenet.com/how-we-won/) \- "we" didn't win, we just
got a short reprieve from losing.
------
coryfklein
Is anybody else fatigued of this "battle"? I have historically spent time and
effort supporting net neutrality, but it seems to rear its head again every 6
months.
It only seems inevitable now that these big-budget companies with great
incentive will get their way.
------
ShirsenduK
In my hometown, Darjeeling (India), Internet has been blocked since June 17,
2017 by the government to censor the citizens of the area. Media doesn't cover
us well as its a small town. How do we Battle for the Internet? How can we
drum up support?
~~~
anigbrowl
An article detailing the issue would be very interesting. I found this one but
don't know the issue as well as I'd like. If you wanted to suggest some better
ones via gmail, I would be happy to try to raise awareness though my own
social media network, as this is the sort of thing that would be of interest
to many of my friends.
It sounds as if you're from Darjeeling rather than based there now (since you
obviously have internet access). I wonder what obstacles besides the obvious
ones of poverty would prevent the creation of informal peer-based networking.
It seems clear to me that networking needs to be fractal in order to function
as an instrument of general liberation/empowerment, vs high-volume hierarchies
that can be switched off as in your example.
Please do follow up with me on this. I can't devote a _lot_ of time to it but
you raise a critically important question that I want to include in my
political calculus going forward.
~~~
ShirsenduK
Here is an article from couple of days back.
[https://scroll.in/latest/843200/home-minister-rajnath-
singh-...](https://scroll.in/latest/843200/home-minister-rajnath-singh-
assures-sikkim-that-darjeeling-protests-will-not-affect-their-security) \-
Near the end there is a section about Darjeeling.
I live in Darjeeling but at the foothills where the Internet hasn't been
blocked. I have friends who have been suffering.
Banks can't function without internet.
Doctors cannot look up medicines without the internet.
Its a mess.
People are not tech savvy enough to use FireChat.
We have free voice calls on mobile(3G/4G). Where does one start to build a
data on voice app?
Thank you for the support! Please spread the word :)
~~~
anigbrowl
Thanks for your prompt feedback, I will share this information and I hope it
contributes something to to your situation. I'm Irish and have always had a
lot of respect for the Gorkha people because their historical situation is
easy to identify with. I definitely encourage you to write up a short article
of your own on this since you have first-hand experience, perhaps for
submission tomorrow or friday (around this same time of day or a little
earlier for best exposure).
This seems like a textbook case of a problem that should be easily soluble by
technical means but which is blocked by other factors. It's strange and
unfortunate that Firechat doesn't work on desktop (allowing easy spread by USB
keys), and also (AFAIK) that it's not practical to pper up to install it.
I have no idea about how to build a data-on-voice app (which would have the
same bootstrapping problems as firechat), but if you have a printer and want
to do some organizing you could establish phone trees with some friends, and
then get people to travel by bus to your neighborhood, install firechat, and
begin (slowly) lighting up the dark zone, maybe?
[http://www.intermountainpro.com/wp-
content/uploads/2011/01/P...](http://www.intermountainpro.com/wp-
content/uploads/2011/01/Phonetree-IP.pdf)
Please do submit an article on this. I think it's an important example of a
collective action problem of the sort that people int he west have partly
forgotten how to deal with.
------
gricardo99
Perhaps the battle is already being lost.
Anyone else getting this error trying to send a letter from the site?
"! There was an error submitting the form, please try again"
[http://imgur.com/a/V60gh](http://imgur.com/a/V60gh)
------
Flemlord
reddit (US Alexa rank = 4) is showing a popup to all users that sends them to
www.battleforthenet.com. It is about time a major player started leveraging
their platform. Why aren't Google, HN, etc. doing this too?
~~~
and0
Funny you should say, HN just updated for it.
------
mvanveen
Please also check out and share the video recording flow we've built at
[https://video.battleforthenet.com](https://video.battleforthenet.com)
------
acjohnson55
I assume this is why the title bar has changed? Curious, since there doesn't
seem to be a definitive statement about that.
------
stephenitis
Not surprising... Yahoo.com which was bought by Verizon has no mention of net
neutrality.
HEADLINE: Kim Kardashian Goes Braless in Tank Top With Gym Shorts and Heels:
See the Unusual Look!
Trending Now 1\. Chris Hemsworth 2. Wiz Khalifa 3. John McCain 4. Joanna Krupa
5. Sean Hannity 6. Universal Studios 7. McGregor suit 8. Maps 9. Loan Depot
10. Justin Bourne
Imagine if this was the fastest homepage for millions of Verizon customers.
_head explodes_
edit. They are at least highlighting the FBI Director hearing on the homepage.
shrug.
------
elorant
Is there anything we who don't live in US can do for you guys? I mean beyond
spreading the word.
------
dec0dedab0de
I wish ARIN, and IANA would just blacklist any companies that actively work
against net neutrality.
------
aabbcc1241
so much unhappy talks about the internet recently, I wonder why there isn't
startup doing network service on top of NDN and IPFS for a better network
------
tboyd47
Tried submitting the form without a phone number, got an error.
------
wjdp
Is there anything those outside the US can do?
------
sharemywin
I'm all about the net neutrality.
But while we're at it how about some hardware neutrality.
And some data portability and control over who sees my information.
And maybe an API neutrality.
And how about letting the municipalities offer free wifi.
------
OJFord
Slightly tangentially, it seems that today the only way to get to get to the
front page, other than the 'back' button if applicable, is to edit the URL?
------
dep_b
Interestingly all this kind of stuff seems to happen in the 1984th year since
Jesus died.
------
shortnamed
love the blatant americentrism in the site:
"This is a battle for the Internet's future." \- just American internet's
future
"Team Cable want to control & tax the Internet" \- they will be able to
control the global system in which the US is just a part of?
"If we lose net neutrality, the Internet will never be the same" \- American
internet, others will be fine
~~~
PrefixKitten
Do you intend not to use US websites anymore?
~~~
eeZah7Ux
You, and others, are missing the point: the americentrism is in assuming that
the website readers are from US, not about the impact on US trends on the rest
of the world.
~~~
r3bl
Well, I'm outside of the US, and needed to turn on a VPN to just be able to
see the impact of the Battle for the Net action. Most of the websites had some
sort of geographical restrictions on who to show the message to.
------
dis-sys
Last time when I checked, there are 730 million Chinese users who mostly don't
use _any_ US Internet services, their switches and servers are made/operated
in China mostly by Huawei and ZTE. It is also laughable to believe that US
domestic policies are going to affect Chinese decision making.
Policy leader? Not after we Chinese declared independence from the monopoly of
your US "lead" on Internet.
~~~
kbart
"Independence"? It definitely looks more like "isolation".
~~~
dis-sys
Why Americans can't stop its own isolation and start learning how to use
Alipay/WeChat?
~~~
JohnTHaller
There's the fact that anything hosted within China can be altered by the great
firewall of China for nefarious purposes by the Chinese government. Like when
the Chinese government used the great firewall to slip malware into the Baidu
analytics javascript for every visitor outside of China to every website that
used Baidu whether located inside or outside of China to stage a DDoS attack
on github. All because github dared to host open source projects that let
mainland Chinese read the New York Times uncensored. Given documented
activities like this, is it possible to trust anything that passes through the
great firewall of China?
~~~
dis-sys
"is it possible to trust anything that passes through the great firewall of
China?"?
You do realize that your comments above just past through GFW and I am reading
it on the other side of the GFW? To answer your question, no, I don't trust
what you said.
~~~
JohnTHaller
You don't have to 'trust' my comment. China using the great firewall to infect
Baidu javascript to attack github is a well-documented fact. You can even view
the infected Baidu javascript designed to attack GreatFire and cn-nytimes
projects on github archived on github itself here:
[https://github.com/BenMQ/cbjs-baidu-github-
attack](https://github.com/BenMQ/cbjs-baidu-github-attack)
Happily the Chinese government let the Baidu javascript work as intended for
Chinese users, it was only for international users that they converted it into
malware. Bottom line, don't load any javascript file hosted in mainland China.
If the the US government forced all traffic through a single firewall and used
said firewall to infect Google Analytics javascript files on third party
websites to force international users to unwittingly engage in a DDoS against
a Chinese site that was hosting open source code designed to allow US citizens
to get around the 'great US firewall', I'd be advising folks against trusting
Google Analytics and US-hosted javascript the way I advise them against
trusting Baidu analytics and China-hosted javascript now.
------
throwaway2048
strange most of the top level comments are arguing against either net
neutrality, or this campaign.
On a site that is otherwise extremely strongly for net neutrality.
Nothing suspicious about that...
~~~
dang
Please don't insinuate astroturfing or shillage on HN. The overwhelming
majority of the time, people just have opposing views. Meanwhile such
insinuations damage the community.
Readers are far too quick to misinterpret disagreement as sinister bad faith,
presumably because we all think our own view is so obvious that only someone
dishonest could disagree. In reality, it's just that the world has a lot of
things in it.
~~~
throwaway2048
astroturfing about these issues IS real, its naive to stick your head in the
sand about it.
I mean look at stuff like this
[https://www.fiverr.com/gigs/reddit](https://www.fiverr.com/gigs/reddit)
[http://www.hack-pr.com/library/how-we-hacked-reddit-to-
gener...](http://www.hack-pr.com/library/how-we-hacked-reddit-to-
generate-5-million-media-impressions-in-3-days)
[https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/10/15610744/anti-net-
neutral...](https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/10/15610744/anti-net-neutrality-
fake-comments-identities)
This is the reality, PR firms are on overdrive on social media sites about
issues that are politically sensitive. Its irresponsible NOT to question the
motives of commenters.
I mean surely as an HN moderator you have seen more than a few shady
situations.
HN is extremely politically influential in the tech sphere, pg has said
himself that its the subject of campaigns like this.
we can not afford to ignore this problem.
~~~
dang
I'm aware of that, having personally spent countless hours combating it, and
dare say I know more about it than most people here. But the situation is much
worse than you describe, because in addition to the real problem of some
people trying to manipulate HN, we have the real problem of people destroying
the community by insinuating astroturfing whenever they see something they
don't like.
[https://hn.algolia.com/?query=by:dang%20two%20problems%20ast...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=by:dang%20two%20problems%20astroturfing&sort=byDate&prefix=true&page=0&dateRange=all&type=comment)
~~~
throwaway2048
I agree that its poisonous and it destroys discourse. But what else are we
supposed to do? Pretend such things are honest discourse, and be manipulated
by them? Pretending that the widespread existence of paid shilling isn't
reality is at least as toxicly corrosive to honest discourse that moves things
forward.
Both choices suck, but what the hell are we supposed to do exactly? Let these
clowns win?
~~~
dang
Actually the solution is simple: email your concerns about specific cases to
hn@ycombinator.com so we can look into them, but don't make posts to HN
insinuating astroturfing or shillage unless you have evidence, and remember
that someone happening to hold a different view than you doesn't count as
evidence. If we all follow that approach I'm pretty sure the community will be
ok. Believe me, we take great pleasure on behalf of the community in clubbing
actual manipulation when we find it.
The problem with what you're saying above is that you don't have any way to
distinguish "such things" from what merely look like "such things". There are
many more of the latter, and there are plenty of HN users who feel the same
way as you but who see a completely different set of posts as "such things".
If we take the union of all those sets it amounts to most of what gets posted
to HN. Just imagine everybody with such perceptions doing a j'accuse on
everybody else with such perceptions; this would destroy the community much
more quickly than astroturfing ever could. So we all have to be disciplined
about this—vigilant, sure, but also disciplined in how we react to what we
think we see. I like a thing that Rilke said: Doubt, but turn your doubt also
upon itself.
~~~
68c12c16
It is the doubt and suspicion thus generated that are really toxic...as it
takes one a long time and non-trivial effort in order to concretely verify any
evidence of paid shilling -- and before that, for all this long time, we have
to doubt and suspect, which would soon make it quite discouraging to have any
interesting discussion...
We could send emails to hn@ycombinator.com , but the thing is that I don't
know how long it would take for us to get any feedback -- as presumably, this
is largely a manual investigation on the mod's part; and I don't know how many
such emails a mod would receive in a day...and during all this time of waiting
for feedback or a possible action, a regular user engaging in a discussion
might have to bear all the attacks and gaslighting -- and sometimes the
attacker(s) could be quite insidious...
For instance, I used to have another new account, which had very little karma
points...And after making a few comments for the first time, one of which
contained some discussion about the censorship by the Chinese government (
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14742211](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14742211)
) -- then two of my other comments (relatively neutral and containing nothing
about Chinese government or so), which I did not think were aggressive or
factually erroneous, soon had been downvoted multiple times. As a result, my
karma points dropped sharply, and my account was soon forbidden by the system
to make any new comment for some time (basically, it had been DoS'ed)...
I still do not know at this time if there was any intentional manipulation
behind that case...
Well, I could have reported the incident, as a possible malicious DoS attack
on my account, to the mod -- but I was also banned by the system at the time
and could not continue with the discussion for a while...Or I could register
another new account...The thing is, it is just getting quite uninteresting and
discouraging for people who want to have some real discussion to stay on...
I have to say that I don't know a better solution, as in such similar
situations, than sending complaints to the mod...but I just feel that perhaps
this solution is still not enough to fix the whole problem...
======================
Edit 1:
I just looked it up and found that _gaslighting_ is indeed an attack vector:
a form of manipulation that seeks to sow seeds of doubt
in a targeted individual or members of a group, hoping
to make targets question their own memory, perception,
and sanity. Using persistent denial, misdirection,
contradiction, and lying, it attempts to destabilize
the target and delegitimize the target's belief.
(as defined in
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting))
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Learning CSS - mrmrs
http://xn--h4hg.ws/2015/07/20/learning-css/
======
kzisme
Nice post! It's cool to see someone I follow on Twitter actively writing blogs
- and posting on HN. I've reached out to you in the past about CSS & vim
before.
------
serve_yay
Not mentioned: read a book
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
I'm (Re)Learning C Before It's Too Late - RawData
http://www.flatplanetmedia.com/im-relearning-the-c-programming-language.html
======
dguaraglia
Back in the day I used LCC-Win32 as my main development platform. It was
rather cool to have such a nice compiler/IDE for free. Extremely fast,
produced small binaries, had a nice debugger, code completion and API
reference at the press of a button. Everything VS had (except C++ obviously)
in about 10mb of memory. Also, it used to include extra documents explaining
how the author went about writing the code editor, the compiler, the IDE, and
the history of the whole thing.
I used Pelles C for a while, mainly for Windows CE development. Although the
IDE was nice, I still preferred LCC-Win32 for Windows development. I have no
idea how both environments have progressed in the last 4 years or so.
Check LCC-Win32 here: <http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32/>
~~~
RawData
There's a pretty nice C tutorial there too at
<http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32/C-Tutorial.pdf>
~~~
dguaraglia
Yep. BTW, forgot to say that LCC-Win32 came with some really cool libraries to
do BigInt maths, and later included the CCL, which is a library of containers
(linked list, hash tables, etc.) Obviously nothing approximating Boost, but it
was good enough if you wanted to avoid having to code your own linked list
every time (let's face it: after you've learned how most data structures work
it's kind of boring and risky to reimplement every time.)
Edit: actually it seems the CCL is still mostly just a bunch of docs. Meh.
------
pan69
If you're on Windows and in need of a solid C/C++ compiler, may I suggest Open
Watcom:
<http://www.openwatcom.org/index.php/Main_Page>
I believe they have binaries for Linux as well these days but I haven't tried
them yet.
~~~
RawData
Thanks for the suggestion...can you compare/contrast it to Pelles C?
------
mseepgood
Why "before it's too late"? Why should an older person no longer be capable of
learning C?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How to Criticize with Kindness: The Four Steps to Arguing Intelligently - lwhsiao
https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/03/28/daniel-dennett-rapoport-rules-criticism/
======
kp1
An alt to this would be reading "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by
Dale Carnegie
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Could you build a startup around this "crowdfunding" model? - callmeed
http://crowdfunding.trampolinesystems.com/
======
callmeed
OP here. Read about this company on TC and found what they did interesting.
Just wondering if you could build a simple startup around this model. I have a
friend in finance who has access to accredited investors ... we were thinking
we could charge them $1k a year for access to invest in startups who are in
our system.
Startups would apply and must be accepted to be in our system. Maybe even
charge them $500 to make sure they're serious (possibly refund it if they
don't get any investment).
Just not sure what type of regulartory hurdles exist. Is this even possible at
all?
~~~
noodle
i had a similar idea to this a little while ago, but couldn't think of how to
execute on it properly.
basically a prosper.com for investing in companies.
i'd love to see it executed upon.
------
tptacek
They're only accepting money from Regulation D accredited investors, meaning
people with 7-figure bank accounts. This isn't substantially different from
seeking angel funding.
~~~
callmeed
Right, but many startups don't know where to find angels. And perhaps angels
would pay for organized access to good ideas like this.
Accredited investors can be others besides those with 7-figure bank accounts:
<http://www.sec.gov/answers/accred.htm>
~~~
tptacek
There are also cases where you're not allowed to solicit investments publicly
under Regulation D, which could hurt the "crowd" part of this "sourcing".
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Spacex to Send Privately Crewed Spacecraft Beyond the Moon Next Year (2017) - themakermark
https://www.spacex.com/news/2017/02/27/spacex-send-privately-crewed-dragon-spacecraft-beyond-moon-next-year
======
themakermark
[https://www.theverge.com/2017/2/27/14754404/spacex-moon-
miss...](https://www.theverge.com/2017/2/27/14754404/spacex-moon-
mission-2018-elon-musk-announces-private-citizen-passengers)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Using Trello to Keep Track of Ideas - feint
http://feint.me/articles/keeping-track-of-ideas
======
nathos
Personally, I've found Workflowy
[[https://workflowy.com](https://workflowy.com)] to be indispensable not just
for keeping track of ideas, but for then turning those ideas into something
real.
Loads in any browser, has a (barebones) mobile app, and it's great for
collaboration. I just hope their business model is enough to keep them afloat
:/
~~~
s3r3nity
I LOVE this app, but it's run by 2 guys with a paid base that I question is
large enough to sustain them in the long run. I can't trust my data (my life?)
to a web-app like this, when you have stable systems like Evernote, Asana, or
even Trello that are going nowhere for the next few years.
Will Workflowy be there a year from now? Can you trust that if hacked your
data is secure? I'm not 100% sure. Still, I hope they can create a stable
business with sustained growth because it's such a great great idea.
~~~
captn3m0
They do have an export feature, which you can use to backup your data.
------
burgreblast
Good use of Trello.
If I can give you feedback on your lists, I would say you are approaching
markets in way that will likely have you paddling upstream for years to come.
Here's the thing: You don't have to come up with the problem to be an
entrepreneur. Other people have problems. Lots of problems.
Your job is to create their solution.
I mean no disrespect--on the contrary, I'm trying to help.
Now, I can't see the details of your board, but how many people are trying to
combine a pen and music? Sure, they might want to flaunt your awesome solution
after they see it, but more than likely, they'll continue along with their
life and not give your idea the time of day. Even it it's awesome and you
execute flawlessly. Brookstone isn't even a big retailer in the scope of
things.
Alternatively, talk to someone in any job. Really, any job will do.
Ask them about their challenges. Their problems. What sucks. What they wish
they could do. I'll bet more people have complaints about their jobs&processes
than want to combine pens and music.
So go ask people about what they don't like. And even if your impromptu focus
group of 1 isn't forthcoming, this is where you lead. Wave your hands and
invent solutions on the fly. Double credit if you can make these solutions
with computers. Do any of your ideas strike their fancy?
Congratulations, hone in on it, then go talk to more people with that same job
and see if the problem exists...repeat and tweak, you might have a real thing.
I've found that understanding, and then solving other people's problems is
remarkably powerful and lucrative. You don't need to invent problems since
people have enough big ones already.
Put a few on Trello, and solve one.
~~~
feint
thanks for the feedback - all my ideas are to solve problems that I have come
across. All my apps past and present have been built because I couldn't find a
solution that worked for me. And luckily other people seem to have the same
problems and I've managed to attract awesome investors.
p.s - penmusic is nothing to with a pen, rather its a feature i was toying
with to integrate music streaming on my pen.io product
------
tinco
I track my ideas using Trello too. If that list in the screenshot is all you
got so far, I have a bit more, and I have ordered them differently. In my
case, 99% of the ideas I will probably never take action on, so it's a bit
weird to track their phase. Instead I have separate lists for how big the idea
is, how much time/energy it would take to implement.
Then the order in the list defines how attracted I am to actually doing the
idea at the moment. So for example, making a Facebook competitor would be in
my 'big ideas' list, but all the way at the bottom, because I think it's not
very likely to end well.
I browse over my ideas every now and then, and update the ideas with
information about how I would go about implementing them if I chose to. I
usually move ideas up the lists when they come back in dreams or I find myself
thinking about them during the day.
I have a few ideas I am actually doing work on (architecting, exploring,
programming) and I move them to a separate 'doing' list. They also have their
own Trello boards of course.
------
sideproject
This is exactly what I do - I also add label colours to differentiate
categories. I've also made "Stupid/abandoned" list, so that I don't just
delete my ideas, but put them there just in case. I find it helpful to review
it every now and then. Then I access them on my mobile too! It's a great tool.
~~~
kranner
I do much the same thing with two Evernote notebooks called "App ideas" and
"App ideas feasible". Every new idea, no matter how silly, goes first into
"App ideas" and later into "App ideas feasible". It's also interesting when
something moves from the feasible list to the former.
------
ryanobjc
How about org-mode:
[http://orgmode.org/](http://orgmode.org/)
Emacs extension = is this hacker news or what?
~~~
berntb
Despite being an Org Mode lover, I have to add:Trello has a bit better multi
user support.
------
rpicard
I started using Trello for this a couple of months ago. My "project" board has
4 lists: Ideas, Queue, Work-in-progress (It was "building" until I read your
post), and Launched.
I like "work-in-progress" better than "building" because I use this board for
more than just product-type ideas; I also use it for things like "learn about
X" or "try Y."
------
jasimq
My ideas board has Ideas, Up next, Doing and Launch. I also add colored labels
to help organize cards better
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Longreads Best of 2017: Science, Technology, and Business Writing - stablemap
https://longreads.com/2017/12/27/longreads-best-of-2017-science-technology-and-business-writing/
======
dang
Lists are rarely interesting in their own right, so it's much better to pick
the best article or two and submit those. Some of them may have already been
discussed this year, so a stop by HN Search (below) is a good idea too.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
KDevelop 5.3.3 Released - cullmann
https://www.kdevelop.org/news/kdevelop-533-released
======
dTal
A bugfix release, so not that interesting. However it's an opportunity for me
to express my gratitude to the KDevelop team for producing such a fine IDE.
Its Python static analysis plugin is first rate and extremely convenient, and
it shares the KTextEditor component with Kate, which leads to a pleasingly
consistent experience if you use KDE (and Kate is a fantastic editor in its
own right).
~~~
zamalek
I used it back in college (10 years ago), being a dedicated Windows Dev. It
was the only IDE that came close to approximating Visual Studio (after a few
trivial tweaks) and deeply impressed me. The C++ support was probably better
than VS.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: I Want To Buy a $1k-5k/yr SAAS Business. Where Do I Start? - Terpaholic
Flippa has been okay for browsing niche websites, but I'm interested in buying a SAAS business and there doesn't seem to be much on the market.<p>Are there any other good places to look for buying a small (like $1K-$5K in revenue/yr) SAAS business? Do you have any caveats?
======
tocomment
By the way flippa seems to be getting worse and worse though I can't really
put my finger on why.
I find the sites for sale on flippa to be overpriced. They seem to go for 18
months profit (or more) for an ad supported site that could lose most of its
traffic in the next google update.
~~~
Terpaholic
Definitely, it seems like there's also more spammish/sketchy sites without
solid revenue (people pump and dump).
I'm definitely not looking for ad-supported type stuff - I really want to work
on a SAAS funnel :D
Finding a niche and establishing traffic and then getting conversions is quite
time consuming and prone to failure - I'd rather pay a premium for removing
that from the equation and then work on expanding the funnel ^.^
------
itstripe
I can rent you software which enables you to start your own SMS selling
business. An example of such service can be found here:
[https://www.cheapsms.eu](https://www.cheapsms.eu)
Product features list can be found here: [http://www.itstripe.com/smpp-
server](http://www.itstripe.com/smpp-server)
------
tocomment
I think a lot of people would be interested in buying such businesses. I
really don't know where you'd find them though.
One thought I had would be a once per month "who's selling" hacker news post
for people to list businesses for sale. Similar to the who's hiring. If you
like the idea maybe go ahead and post it on 11/1?
~~~
Terpaholic
Sure, sounds like a solid idea. Heck I have some iPhone apps that I might want
to sell :)
------
skram
Have you tried
[https://www.sideprojectors.com/project/home](https://www.sideprojectors.com/project/home)
? Made by a fellow HN'er if I remember correctly.
------
benologist
[http://flippa.com/](http://flippa.com/)
Make sure the revenue is sustainable and recurring _without_ the original
person(s).
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Flickr censorship - abstractbill
http://thomashawk.com/2007/05/flickr-censorship.html?repost
======
abstractbill
Apparently though, it was a mistake rather than censorship:
<http://www.flickr.com/help/forum/40074/#reply212150>
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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Has Cosmology Run into a Creative Crisis? - benbreen
http://aeon.co/magazine/science/has-cosmology-run-into-a-creative-crisis/
======
robinsloan
This is fantastic:
"When you read that word cosmos, you might begin to imagine the most expansive
physical world your mind can build. Deep fields of glittering, star-filled
galaxies stretching out in every direction, and maybe into forever. But even
that image represents only the barest sliver of what is meant by ‘cosmos’. To
build a cosmos, you have to extend your imagination to all of space and all of
time. Only one of Earth’s creatures can pull off that cognitive trick. All
living things are attuned to their environment: bacteria can sense chemical
shifts in their immediate surroundings; migrating birds know our planet well
enough to wing annually across its whole face; dung beetles navigate by the
light of the Milky Way. But only the human being lives inside a cosmos, and
only recently."
Nobody writes about this kinda stuff better than Ross Andersen.
(Also worth noting: he conducted what is probably the best interview to date
with Elon Musk => [http://aeon.co/magazine/technology/the-elon-musk-
interview-o...](http://aeon.co/magazine/technology/the-elon-musk-interview-on-
mars/))
~~~
drzaiusapelord
Personally, I dislike this stoner-esque "whoa man," type writing. Its cheap
and also dismisses the possibility of alien life elsewhere. I also don't think
we fully understand animal intelligence to make grand claims like this. It
just seems... egocentric.
~~~
kenbellows
I'll take your point on animal intelligence, but to the author's credit, he
does specify "only one of _Earth 's_ creatures", so no ruling out of alien
life there
------
smeyer
> At the moment, there is no alternative theory of the early Universe that
> explains more.
I thought this was a very important point that the author just sort of brushed
aside. There are serious flaws with inflation and real concerns to address
with recent measurements, but it still remains the best available theory. It's
not like everyone is latching on for purely sentimental reasons or something.
~~~
alchemism
>Among today’s physicists, there are some who still believe the cosmos cycles
in and out of being in this way.
It may take science some time to grudgingly test hypotheses drawn from
mysticism and metaphysics. So perhaps not so much due to sentimentality as
pride?
~~~
Retric
What other test would you suggest?
Right now we can collect light from the distant cosmos and run local
experiments, but it's really hard to test for large scale effects at the local
level. Which means detecting photons and making predictions about what they
suggest is the only real option.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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Time-lapse: Package shipped with a hidden camera - morphics
http://flowingdata.com/2013/04/18/time-lapse-package-shipped-with-a-hidden-camera/
======
ColinWright
The original post, containing more details and more commentary, and by the
person who actually did it, is here:
<http://www.rubenvandervleuten.com/AtoB.html>
It was posted to HN here: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5501262>
The result was the sound of crickets, which I think is a little sad, because
it was a great little project that I found intriguing.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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Designing Crypto Primitives Secure Against Rubber Hose Attacks (2012) - jonbaer
https://www.usenix.org/conference/usenixsecurity12/technical-sessions/presentation/bojinov
======
cbd1984
It's interesting, but it opens up a rather unsettling counter-countermeasure:
If I'm Mallet, I don't want people using passwords I can't quickly force out
of them. Therefore, I pretend I don't know about this, or don't believe it,
and _keep using the rubber hose_ on people who are implementing this protocol.
Therefore, those people get worked over longer and end up in a worse spot than
people who _are_ able to give up a password quickly. Net result is that people
are terrified of using this stuff because they know that if they don't give up
a working password quickly they'll be tortured longer.
Moral: This is probably a really good way to remember secure (that is, high-
entropy) passwords. Don't pretend it's good for a use-case at which it is very
obviously a horrible fit.
~~~
po
The best technique for this that I have seen are systems with plausible
deniability. This is where you have a pool of seemingly random data and
several passwords will open different parts of the data up, with the free
space padded by random data. The idea is that you reveal a password with dummy
content. If they continue to insist that there must be another password you
can reveal a second, or third password that will reveal different data.
Of course, any actor that is willing to torture an answer out of you is
probably willing to torture n answers out of you and/or watch you die in the
process. This is one of those problems that there may not be a technological
solution to and we should probably focus on spreading the concept of human
rights to our children instead.
~~~
digi_owl
> Of course, any actor that is willing to torture an answer out of you is
> probably willing to torture n answers out of you and/or watch you die in the
> process.
The eternal question of how to fight monsters without becoming one in the
process.
~~~
exo762
Simple answer - don't. You can't fight blind violence with more violence and
expect that something good will come out of this.
~~~
digi_owl
And yet "we" keep on trying...
------
derefr
I don't see why, if you can torture someone into saying words, you can't also
torture someone into playing a game.
People can be coerced into doing anything they would do normally (unlocking a
lock; supplying their fingerprint; phoning their conspirator and saying to go
ahead with the plan.) True coercion-resistance, I would think, implies that
the mechanism has the ability to differentiate a stimulus supplied under
coercion, even under the assumption that Mallet could have fed Alice some
anti-anxiety drugs to regularize detectable symptoms of stress in her
behaviour. (Coincidentally, "truth serums"—i.e. low-dose dissociative
anaesthetics, ketamine or PCP being just as workable as sodium pentathol—also
have anxiolytic effects. I can't imagine a state actor wouldn't take advantage
of this if the goal is coercion rather than torture-for-the-sake-of-torture.)
As far as I know, there is one single useful mechanism for coercion-
resistance: precommitment with counterparties. If Alice and Bob are supposed
to have no further contact once the plan is in motion, and Bob knows this,
then it is useless to torture Alice into contacting Bob—Bob will take the
contact itself as a signal that Alice has been compromised.
You can automate this; if Alice (or her device) must attend regular KEx
parties to get a new key (i.e. participate in a protocol with a security
ratchet), then capturing her or her device prevents her from doing this, and
so expires her key material (kicks her keys out of the keybag, basically.)
------
effie
What about using a scheme where the only copy of the key is easily destroyed
when needed? Something like private key stored on a USB flash drive with
hidden "auto-destruct" button. If the owner sees the situation coming, he just
says to the criminal: "The only copy of the private key was stored on this
disk. I've just destroyed it. There's no point in torturing me." Seems to
prevent both violation of privacy and torture. The criminal must believe there
is no other copy, though.
~~~
derefr
That sort of thing is usually taken as an admission of guilt as to the
contents of the encrypted material, as far as being charged with an actual
crime (rather than just held indefinitely without charge) is concerned.
Instead of holding you illegally, they're now holding you legally.
On the other hand, if you can remove the active _mens rea_ component, this is
a good solution. I imagine law enforcement is actively trying to prevent any
software with a _dead man 's switch_ key-destruction component from ever
becoming popular/ubiquitous, because it would enable people to claim they
truly had no idea the software had a feature where their key would be
destroyed in such a scenario; they were just using it because everyone else
was. Imagine if BitLocker/FileVault had a mechanism like that, which could be
forced on users by corporate policy!
------
im3w1l
Quantum cryptography can be secure against rubber hose attacks. It can be
designed so that if you measure the wrong thing (i.e. try the wrong password),
the stored information is gone forever. And due to the no-cloning theorem it
isn't possible to circumvent this with backups.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Custom splash page & personal analytics dashboard - sumeetjain
http://about.me
======
petervandijck
Prefer that on my own domain, like this <http://petervandijck.com/>
~~~
wccrawford
I agree. Some kind of API to put this on your own domain would be really nice.
| {
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Ember.js Live Collections - wycats
http://awardwinningfjords.com/2011/12/27/emberjs-collections.html
======
moe
_Assuming that Bocoup simply chose Backbone.js for familiarity's sake_
The tone of this post seems a bit dishonest.
There are plenty obvious reasons for not choosing Ember today: It's young,
it's not production-ready, it's undocumented.
In that light I don't think you can reasonably expect anyone who's not a
former SproutCore-user to choose Ember over Backbone today.
Case in point: The docs don't even mention the Em.ArrayController that your
example builds on. How is anyone without prior SproutCore-knowledge supposed
to discover it?
~~~
sbarre
Well, to your point: I wasn't a Sproutcore user before, and I've read lots of
articles on Backbone over the last 3-4 months, and tried to get it working a
few times for my projects, without much luck.
That said, I'm not an expert Javascript developer, so maybe I just didn't
understand it, or try hard enough. The following story is mine, so YMMV.
Then I saw Ember.js and the Handlebars bindings made simple sense to me, so I
cloned the repo, and started playing around with it.
Sure it's not documented but I know how to load the uncompressed source tree
in Textmate and look around. The source code itself is very well commented and
contains inline examples (although some of them are still Sproutcore-centric,
but s/SC/Ember/ and you're mostly good).
I read through the examples, I tinkered, and within a few hours, I had a semi-
working version of my project.
So yeah it's young and undocumented, but if anything the ease with which I was
able to get up and running on it says a lot for its future potential.
------
jashkenas
I was catching a bit of the twitter back-and-forth this afternoon:
<http://bettween.com/ireneros/tdreyno/>
... and was a bit disappointed by the level of discussion.
"Live Collections", such as they are, have nothing to do with Backbone.js and
Ember.js intrinsically -- and indeed, you probably can, and should, implement
it in Backbone exactly as Thomas does in this article.
In other words, if you're looking for anything Backbone or Ember specific,
there's nothing to see here -- both libraries support this idiom (Ajax some
data, check for ids, add if not already present) in precisely the same way.
~~~
tdreyno
I was actually trying my hardest to present it as a technique worth being
aware of rather than specific to one framework or another.
Totally agree. I use both frameworks for work and posted my article because
Rick Waldron asked me too as penance for a bit too much snark on my behalf.
------
daleharvey
I experimented with backbone and ember recently, the integration with
handlebars to do in place updates and the quite comprehensive observer /
bindings mechanisms in ember look powerful and definitely needed for more
complex applications
Backbone seemed to provide everything needed for reasonably simple one page
javascript apps
But both seemed to suffer the same problem, they are quite monolithic,
everything is build around the fact your app is a 'backbone' or an 'ember'
application, they arent just libraries that provide specific functionality.
They both seemed to miss out really basic functionality that I run into all
the time building these type of applications, the example here shows one of
the problems, when I am not looking at the recent tweets, I dont want to be
polling the data source, I havent seen a good example in either of how to
properly setup and tear down views, I came up with something incredibly simple
that helps, I will try and blog about it soon.
Also I find the general tone of the article pretty rude and condescending
~~~
tomdale
_But both seemed to suffer the same problem, they are quite monolithic,
everything is build around the fact your app is a 'backbone' or an 'ember'
application, they arent just libraries that provide specific functionality._
Isn't that the reason developers choose libraries like Backbone, Ember,
Knockout, et al.? I think most web developers have realized that code
spaghetti doesn't scale very well. Part of the reason the iOS ecosystem is so
vibrant is because Cocoa is just as opinionated about architecture as it is
about "specific functionality."
_They both seemed to miss out really basic functionality that I run into all
the time building these type of applications, the example here shows one of
the problems, when I am not looking at the recent tweets, I dont want to be
polling the data source, I havent seen a good example in either of how to
properly setup and tear down views, I came up with something incredibly simple
that helps, I will try and blog about it soon._
I'd love to read your blog post. In my opinion, it sounds like you might be
approaching the problem from the wrong direction. Views being in charge of
when the server is polled is a layering violation. Instead, I'd have a
controller that is in charge of knowing when a given view is rendered to the
screen. When it is, it tells the model layer to start polling. When it hides
the view, it turns off the polling.
_Also I find the general tone of the article pretty rude and condescending._
Thomas is an incredibly nice guy and has experience with many different MVC
frameworks. I'm sorry the post came off this way to you, but it didn't to me.
Personally, I think Backbone is an incredibly important part of the ecosystem
and am very glad it exists. I think Thomas feels the same way too.
~~~
daleharvey
Isnt that the reason developers choose libraries like
Backbone, Ember, Knockout, et al.? I think most web
developers have realized that code spaghetti doesn't
scale very well. Part of the reason the iOS ecosystem
is so vibrant is because Cocoa is just as opinionated
about architecture as it is about specific
functionality.'
Thats true, and there are definite advantages to building things in that
style, but I am surprised that the more popular of these libraries are all
built in this style, There are also distinct advantages of having loosely
coupled flexible libraries such as jQuery, which is the library for
interfacing with the dom, loosely coupled well integrated components dont
necessarily mean spaghetti code
I'd love to read your blog post. In my opinion, it
sounds like you might be approaching the problem from
the wrong direction. Views being in charge of when the
server is polled is a layering violation. Instead, I'd
have a controller that is in charge of knowing when a
given view is rendered to the screen. When it is, it
tells the model layer to start polling. When it hides
the view, it turns off the polling.
Sure but the problem doesnt go away when you move it up to the controller, I
havent seen these libraries provide state which determines which controller is
currently active. Of course you can code it yourself, but there are lots of
little cases and functionality which imo libraries could do a better job of
abstracting away. I will write the post asap, I mostly just need a name for my
little micro library :)
------
jurre
This article is using a polling technique, I suggest everyone check out
Pusher[1] or the open source equivalent Slanger[2] that use websockets to
allow you to push these updates from your server.
[1] <http://www.pusher.com/> [2] <https://github.com/stevegraham/slanger>
(ps: not affiliated with either of those, they're just awesome pieces of
technology that I see as the future of the web)
------
halayli
Nothing is this article demonstrates a feature that doesn't exist in
backbone.js. In fact, backbone.js feels much cleaner.
~~~
tomdale
The point of Ember.js is to reduce the amount of boilerplate a developer needs
to write to perform common tasks. I think Thomas did a good job of explaining
how you can accomplish the same thing in Ember.js with fewer lines of code
(and remember–less code, fewer bugs!)
I'm curious: what about the Backbone version feels "cleaner" to you?
~~~
halayli
My point was that the sample code didn't show Ember's strong features like
computed properties and auto binding. The backbone version will be more or
less the same size for this kind of demo.
as for the cleaner part, I didn't like the fact that I need to call _super().
On the other hand I really like .property and .observe in Ember.js :)
~~~
drivebyacct2
That's been my armchair analysis of this. I was set to go on vacation, but it
looks like I may scrap that and write a new frontend for our application and
I'm trying to narrow it down between Ember and Backbone. I'd found something
yesterday that would give you the KO style observables in a light standalone
library, though the name escapes me now. Maybe it+Backbone.js is the most
versatile?
~~~
ryankshaw
it might have been this: <https://github.com/bruth/synapse>
~~~
oscilloscope
Docs: <http://bruth.github.com/synapse/docs/>
Demo: <http://jsfiddle.net/bruth/bufeK/>
Source:
[https://github.com/bruth/synapse/blob/master/src/synapse.cof...](https://github.com/bruth/synapse/blob/master/src/synapse.coffee)
Synapse is an elegant API for data binding. Subjects and observers clarify
many issues for data-flow interfaces.
The boilerplate in Backbone shrinks significantly when expressed with
CoffeeScript. Synapse's source is expressive, well-documented and only ~200
lines.
------
nopal
The author mentions Facebook, but from my observations, it seems as if
Facebook is much more real-time.
Does anyone know how Facebook is doing their live-updating? Are they using
polling a la Ember.js, or are they doing something along the lines of Web
Sockets/long polling?
~~~
jurre
I _think_ they're using polling for everything but the chat. I base this
solely on how Facebook behaves, theres usually some delay in the updates and
such and I believe a lot of things require mouse movement.
------
gojomo
Would be neat to mix this with an animated list-insert/resort, like David
DeSandro's 'Isotope'.
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"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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Arnold Renderer - boulos
https://www.solidangle.com
======
boulos
After years of working on Arnold and saying it could use a website, it's
finally up. If you're unfamiliar with Arnold, the about page has a useful
history:
https://www.solidangle.com/about
and of the 5 movies up for the VFX Oscar this year, all of them except the
Hobbit were rendered at least partially with Arnold (Gravity basically 100%).
| {
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Adobe Drops Licensing Fees, Gives Away Flash For Devices - nickb
http://blog.wired.com/monkeybites/2008/04/adobe-drops-lic.html
======
swombat
This was published back in April??
Weird, I hadn't heard of it.
------
tuukkah
The Flash Player is still proprietary, and Gnash is far from being a full
replacement. Hopefully, HTML 5 video and faster DOM graphics will replace
Flash soon.
~~~
aaronblohowiak
Ew, HTML5. What we really need is for IE to support SVG. Instead, they made
silverlight.
~~~
tuukkah
With "faster DOM graphics", I meant to include SVG. I can't believe IE still
has no native support for it :-( I see that depending on your requirements,
there are partial SVG and Canvas implementations for IE in JavaScript, as well
as higher-level JS APIs that work across the browsers.
<http://starkravingfinkle.org/blog/2006/03/svg-in-ie/>
<http://excanvas.sourceforge.net/>
<http://www.liquidx.net/plotkit/>
~~~
tuukkah
Took me a while to find the link again, but this work to implement Silverlight
in JS and SVG is closest to flash I've seen for building RIAs:
<http://github.com/toshok/firelight/wikis/home>
------
ashishk
You have to give these guys credit for AIR. I'm very impressed by the
applications I have seen built on it-- especially balsamiq.
I'm definitely looking forward to building on it.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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A True Story - benbreen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_True_Story
======
OscarCunningham
Lucian also wrote the earliest known version of _The Sorcerer 's Apprentice_,
which I view as the ur-example of an "AI rebellion" storyline. A programmer is
harmed by their creation not because it goes against their orders but because
it follows their orders to a much greater extent than they were anticipating.
~~~
shas3
This is bogus. Abhimanyu’s story in Mahabharatha and Sanjiva’s story from
Buddhist Jataka tales both predate Lucian and are both Sorcerer’s Apprentice
type tales.
~~~
Isamu
Interesting, could you post one of them? The version from Lucian is as
follows:
“Whenever we came to an inn, he used to take up the bar of the door, or a
broom, or perhaps a pestle, dress it up in clothes, and utter a certain
incantation; whereupon the thing would begin to walk about, so that every one
took it for a man. It would go off and draw water, buy and cook provisions,
and make itself generally useful. When we had no further occasion for its
services, there was another incantation, after which the broom was a broom
once more, or the pestle a pestle. I could never get him to teach me this
incantation, though it was not for want of trying; open as he was about
everything else, he guarded this one secret jealously. At last one day I hid
in a dark corner, and overheard the magic syllables; they were three in
number. The Egyptian gave the pestle its instructions, and then went off to
the market. Well, next day he was again busy in the market: so I took the
pestle, dressed it, pronounced the three syllables exactly as he had done, and
ordered it to become a water-carrier. It brought me the pitcher full; and then
I said: Stop: be water-carrier no longer, but pestle as heretofore. But the
thing would take no notice of me: it went on drawing water the whole time,
until at last the house was full of it. This was awkward: if Pancrates came
back, he would be angry, I thought (and so indeed it turned out). I took an
axe, and cut the pestle in two. The result was that both halves took pitchers
and fetched water; I had two water-carriers instead of one. This was still
going on, when Pancrates appeared. He saw how things stood, and turned the
water-carriers back into wood; and then he withdrew himself from me, and went
away, whither I knew not.”
~~~
YeGoblynQueenne
Not the OP, but I was curious so I read a bit about Abhimanyu and Sañjīva.
Abhimanyu was a warrior in the Mahabharata who, while still in his mother's
womb, heard Arjuna tell the secret of how to break into the powerful circular
battle formation known as the Chakravyūha. His mother, and with her, Abhimanyu
in her womb, fell asleep before hearing how to break out of the formation.
Once an adult, Abhimanyu entered the Chakravyūha of his enemies, the Kauravas,
and killed many of their soldiers. But, not knowing how to exit the formation,
became trapped inside and was eventually weakened and killed by the combined
might of his enemies' heroes.
The Sañjīva-Jātaka is a story-within-a-story. The main story tells of King
Ajātasattu who followed Devadatta, the enemy of the Buddhas and how he paid
for it. The story-within, tells of a young brahmin, named Sañjīva, pupil of
the Bodhisattva, who taught him a spell to raise the dead. Wishing to impress
his peers, Sañjīva cast the spell on a dead tiger. But, not knowing the
counter-spell, he could not control the tiger, who bit him in the neck and
killed him, then fell dead by his side. The story-within is meant to teach how
an evil person cannot be a true ally and will soon turn against you:
Befriend a villain, aid him in his need,
And, like that tiger which Sañjīva raised
To life, he straight devours you for your pains.
There are obvious parallels between the two stories and the Sorcerer's
Apprentice tale (modern and ancient). However, Abhimanyu's story is also
significantly different, in that the Chakravyūha is not his own creation that
he lost control over.
If we take Abhimanyu's story as similar to the Sorcerer's Apprentice story,
and accept that the theme is one of knowing how to initiate a process, but not
how to stop it, then we may also heed the story of Phaethon, the son of
Helios, the sun god, who asked to drive his father's chariot (i.e. the sun)
but couldn't control it and was killed by Zeus to stop him wreaking havok to
the Earth. This is a story from Greek mythology and therefore much older than
the story of Sañjīva and at least as old as the Mahabharata.
Therefore, as a stereotypical Greek, I will claim the oldest telling of the
story of The Boy Who Lost Control for the legend of Phaethon.
__________
Refs:
Abhimanyu's article on wikipedia:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhimanyu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhimanyu)
Chakravyūha article on wikipedia:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padmavyuha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padmavyuha)
The Sañjīva-Jātaka:
[http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/j1/j1153.htm](http://www.sacred-
texts.com/bud/j1/j1153.htm)
Phaethon's article on wikipedia:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaethon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaethon)
~~~
taneq
Phaeton is a credible origin for starting-something-you-can't-stop stories but
I think Sorcerer's Apprentice has a further facet, where the process that you
start is autonomous to some degree and causes problems by doing exactly what
you told it. (In the case of the undead tiger it was being more of a live
tiger than Sañjīva expected.)
~~~
YeGoblynQueenne
Hey, I don't disagree completely, but it's hard to decide how to answer this
kind of question. In short, we are trying to figure out a way to identify a
class of stories, based on a single example and on the observation that it has
some common elements with other stories we happen to know. The difficulty is
in the fact that there are many such "common elements" we might decide to
focus on, or ignore, and each set thereof can substantially change the stories
we identify as "similar to" our single example, the Sorcerer's Apprentice.
So, for instance, we could broaden the description to include any story of
losing control over one's, or someone else's creation- therefore "covering"
stories as diverse as the legend of Icarus, Mary Shelley's Frankenstein and of
course the stories of Sañjīva, Phaethon and Abhimanyu. We might focus on the
moral dimension of the story, which draws more stark parallels to the story of
Sañjīva but also King Midas. We might choose to stay as close as possible to
the them of "magical automation" in which case, we 'll only include stories
like the original tale in Lucian's work, the Sorcerer's Apprentice many
versions, and the story of the Golem of Prague, all of which include something
like the Paperclip Optimiser AGI. And so on.
I guess now I make it sound like navel-gazing, but this is actually a
legitimate problem with very real applications. For example imagine trying to
organise the stories I list above, plus who knows how many others, in
appropriate categories _automatically_ based on their _narrative_
characteristics. It's probably impossible to do that sort of thing with
current NLP techniques, or at least to do it in a way that would satisfy a
majority of human classifiers. Not to mention, the problem of choosing what
part of a _story_ (as opposed to what portions of _text_) to attend to when
categorising a document is also not something we can currently solve
convincingly.
So it's an ill-defined, hard, classification problem. Perfect subject for a
machine learning paper :)
~~~
taneq
Interesting take on the topic, thanks! I think part of the problem is trying
to categories stories on some kind of taxonomy rather than seeing them as
bundles of attributes.
------
PakG1
The most fascinating thing for me is that at that time, he was able to
conceptualize that people could walk on the moon, and that it was big enough
to have a war on the ground. I'm not sure why, but something in me makes me
think that I never would have imagined something like that back then. Quite
the imagination.
Of course, he seemed to also think that you could walk on the sun, but can't
blame him for extending the logic and not knowing that the sun's composition
wasn't great for walking.
~~~
0xBABAD00C
Democritus, who lived many centuries before Lucian, reasoned his way to
discovering the concept of atoms, and that the world must be built up from a
finite set of small indivisible particles. I find that even more
fascinating...
~~~
charlysl
It is indeed. But even more so for me is that then Epicurus, starting from
this, deducted a whole ethic that is essentially modern. If you haven't read
it yet, I think you would appreciate an account of the whole story, of how it
was supressed by the church for centuries and eventually triumphed: "The
Swerve: How the World Became Modern" [https://www.amazon.com/Swerve-How-World-
Became-Modern/dp/039...](https://www.amazon.com/Swerve-How-World-Became-
Modern/dp/039..).
------
kijin
This reminds me of a quote from the late Ursula K. Le Guin:
> I talk about the gods, I am an atheist. But I am an artist too, and
> therefore a liar. Distrust everything I say. I am telling the truth.
The novelist produces statements that are blatantly untrue, knowing that they
are untrue. The reader also knows that none of the stuff they're reading is
true, yet is able to suspend disbelief and enjoy the story while it lasts. The
story might be full of lies, but the enjoyment is true. The message contained
in the novel might also be true, as is the person you become after having read
many a classic. So it seems that a well-written falsehood can sometimes convey
truth better than raw truth itself.
~~~
DoreenMichele
_Distrust everything I say. I am telling the truth._
Nice. It is akin to my favorite movie line: _I 'm too truthful to be good._
~~~
Uberphallus
My personal line is "Truthful 50% of the time. Lying 50% of the time.
Exaggerating 50% of the time."
------
russdill
'The book ends abruptly with Lucian stating that their future adventures will
be described in the upcoming sequels, a promise which a disappointed scholiast
described as "the biggest lie of all"'
"Wait! Where are you going?!? Coming soon! Don't miss, History of the World
Part II!"
------
delibaltas
I have read almost all his books as a kid, because I had found them very cheap
(10c each) in Athens, Greece where I live. The most impressive is the "style"
of the author which was VERY modern.
~~~
hycaria
I thought ancient greek was rather different from modern? Or were they
translations?
~~~
delibaltas
There was an evolution in the language. Homer is harder to read than Plato and
Plato is harder to read than the New Testament.
By the time the New Testament was written 50-100 AD the language was quite
close to todays form, so you can easily understand it, although it would be
harder to talk like this.
Lucian lived about 100 years after this, so the language was easy to read.
Moreover his use of the language made it even more easy, because he despised
those authors that were trying to appear "serious".
------
MichaelMoser123
[http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/luc/true/index.htm](http://www.sacred-
texts.com/cla/luc/true/index.htm) here is a translation of the story, will be
reading it...
~~~
magicnubs
> [...] if he looks into the looking-glass he sees every city and every
> country just as if he were standing over it. When I tried it I saw my family
> and my whole native land, but I cannot go further and say for certain
> whether they also saw me.
Google maps?
------
camillomiller
I remember thinking of Luciano (we read him in Latin in high school back in
Italy) when Fargo by The Coen Brothers came out. We’re all just remixing since
centuries!
------
Pixadus
"They find sinners being punished, the worst of them being the ones who had
written books with lies and fantasies, including Herodotus and
Ctesias.[25][24]"
We the fiction writers are condemned to the deepest layer of hell... man. Pa
always said nonfiction was the answer.
------
dlhavema
I love the thing at the end about the sequels. This guy sounded pretty clever.
------
lgessler
See also The Golden Ass[1], the only Latin novel to survive in its entirety.
[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Ass](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Ass)
------
Yhippa
I will definitely give this a read based on all the comments here. Studying
Latin in high school, one thing I found fascinating how the same stuff the
Romans and Greeks dealt with thousands of years ago is very similar to the
same things we deal with now.
------
mrktt
This brings back memories.. A page from "A true story" was the ancient greek
translation in the 1990 national graduation exams in Italy. Unusual stuff,
completely different from the usual suspects (Herodotus, Thucydides,
Aristotle)
------
k_sze
It would be a bit funny if somebody wrote the Wikipedia article in the same
style as the novel (parody, sarcasm, and a complete lie).
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