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Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. It is a pleasure to be moving this important debate this afternoon. Making childhood equal is sadly not something we have excelled at. Article 26 of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities states that, 'States Parties shall take effective and appropriate measures, including through peer support, to enable persons with disabilities to attain and maintain maximum independence, full physical, mental, social and vocational ability, and full inclusion and participation in all aspects of life. To that end, States Parties shall organize, strengthen and extend comprehensive habilitation and rehabilitation services and programmes, particularly in the areas of health, employment, education and social services, in such a way that these services and programmes: 'a) Begin at the earliest possible stage, and are based on the multidisciplinary assessment of individual needs and strengths; 'b) Support participation and inclusion in the community and all aspects of society, are voluntary, and are available to persons with disabilities as close as possible to their own communities, including in rural areas. '2. States Parties shall promote the development of initial and continuing training for professionals and staff working in habilitation and rehabilitation services. '3. States Parties shall promote the availability, knowledge and use of assistive devices and technologies, designed for persons with disabilities, as they relate to habilitation and rehabilitation'. Despite this obvious duty to provide habilitation support, some local authorities in Wales offer none at all. According to Guide Dogs Cymru, large parts of Wales have very poor provision of habilitation training. They believe that there are approximately 2,000 sight-impaired children and young people who would benefit from such training. But, what are we talking about here? What is habilitation training? Essentially, it is a way of teaching children and young people with sight loss the skills that we all develop early on. A child or a young person who can see typically develops a range of independence skills as they grow up with their family. These skills include being able to move around without hurting themselves and being able to get where they want to be safely. Independence skills include the practical and social skills of washing, dressing, eating, drinking, shopping, cooking and finding friends. Sighted children and young people learn these skills within their families, largely by watching other family members. Children and young people with vision impairment cannot watch and learn in the same way as a sighted child. As a result, many key foundation skills may be missed without additional help and support. Habilitation training provides alternative ways of learning, using the child or young person's other senses of touch, hearing, taste, smell and balance. This approach develops a child's early movement skills and is useful for children with a range of vision or none. Habilitation in the early years also helps to develop children's awareness of their own bodies, as well as the child's awareness of the space around them when still or moving and the use of their senses. Habilitation specialists work closely with parents, school staff and other professionals, as well as one to one with the child. They are qualified to teach practical strategies and skills to maximise independence, and work in both mainstream and specialised settings, as well as in the home and out in the community. Habilitation training maximises the personal independence of a child or young person with visual needs, as well as helps to prepare them for moving on as an independent young adult to college, university, apprenticeships or work. Last October I had the pleasure to meet Amy, a young woman who had benefited from habilitation support from Guide Dogs Cymru. Amy told me how the support she received gave her the confidence to go to university, and was even planning a trip to America, a lifelong dream that would not have been possible without habilitation support. Habilitation enables these young people to do the things that we all take for granted, things we all do without a second thought, things that everyone should be able to do, whether that is going out to play with friends or going travelling in your late teens. Without habilitation support for Welsh children and young people, how can we possibly hope to create an equal Wales? If we don't have equality of opportunity, then we don't have equality. Sadly for visually impaired children and young people in Wales, where you live has a huge impact on your opportunities. There is a postcode lottery for habilitation services. Provision is very stretched across north Wales, where one specialist covers a very large area. In Ceredigion, Conwy, Merthyr Tydfil and Pembrokeshire, there is no service at all. There are just 11.4 full-time equivalent habilitation specialists covering the whole of Wales, well short of what is needed to provide at least one specialist per 100 visually impaired children. As our motion calls for, we need to urgently implement a workforce plan, a strategic commitment to a long-term solution. Whilst we dither and delay, blind and partially sighted children are missing out on vital specialist support to enable them to achieve their full potential. Ministers can find a few million pounds down the back of the Welsh Treasury sofa in order to bail out a failing airport, yet they do nothing to support thousands of visually impaired young people in Wales. I'm also disappointed that the Welsh Government have amended our motion to pass the buck onto local government. For years, Welsh Ministers have been told that specialist habilitation provision has been lacking, and yet no action has been taken, no plans put in place. We can't leave national planning to local authorities. Welsh Ministers are ultimately responsible for ensuring councils comply with their duties, as well as ensuring Wales has the workforce needed to provide habilitation support to our young people. I urge colleagues to stand up for visually impaired young people by supporting our motion today and rejecting the Government's amendment. With the right workforce plan in place and sufficient habilitation specialists employed to meet the needs of visually impaired children and young people, we can make childhood equal. By removing barriers - that we, non-impaired, ironically, don't see - we can ensure every visually impaired child in Wales has equality of opportunity and is allowed to thrive. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Mae'n bleser cael cynnig y ddadl bwysig hon y prynhawn yma. Yn anffodus, nid yw gwneud plentyndod yn gyfartal yn rhywbeth rydym wedi rhagori arno. Mae Erthygl 26 o Gonfensiwn y Cenhedloedd Unedig ar Hawliau Pobl ag Anableddau yn nodi bod 'rhaid i Wladwriaethau sy'n Barti roi mesurau effeithiol a phriodol ar waith, gan gynnwys drwy gymorth gan gymheiriaid, i alluogi pobl ag anableddau i gael a chynnal annibyniaeth lawn, gallu corfforol, meddyliol, cymdeithasol a galwedigaethol llawn, a chynhwysiant a chyfranogiad llawn ym mhob agwedd ar fywyd. I'r perwyl hwnnw, mae'n rhaid i Wladwriaethau sy'n Barti drefnu, cryfhau ac ymestyn gwasanaethau a rhaglenni sefydlu ac adsefydlu cynhwysfawr, yn enwedig ym meysydd iechyd, cyflogaeth, addysg a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, yn y fath fodd fel bod y gwasanaethau a'r rhaglenni hyn: 'a) Yn dechrau ar y cam cynharaf posibl, ac yn seiliedig ar asesiad amlddisgyblaethol o anghenion a chryfderau unigol; 'b) Yn cefnogi cyfranogiad a chynhwysiant yn y gymuned a phob agwedd ar gymdeithas, yn wirfoddol, ac ar gael i bobl ag anableddau mor agos â phosibl at eu cymunedau eu hunain, gan gynnwys mewn ardaloedd gwledig. '2. Mae'n rhaid i Wladwriaethau sy'n Barti hybu datblygiad hyfforddiant cychwynnol a pharhaus ar gyfer gweithwyr proffesiynol a staff sy'n gweithio mewn gwasanaethau sefydlu ac adsefydlu. '3. Mae'n rhaid i Wladwriaethau sy'n Barti hybu argaeledd dyfeisiau a thechnolegau cynorthwyol, a'r wybodaeth a'r defnydd ohonynt, a gynlluniwyd ar gyfer pobl ag anableddau, fel y maent yn ymwneud â sefydlu ac adsefydlu'. Er gwaethaf y ddyletswydd amlwg hon i ddarparu cymorth sefydlu, nid yw rhai awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru yn cynnig unrhyw gymorth o gwbl. Yn ôl Cŵn Tywys Cymru, mae'r ddarpariaeth o hyfforddiant sefylu yn wael iawn mewn rhannau helaeth o Gymru. Credant fod yna oddeutu 2,000 o blant a phobl ifanc â nam ar eu golwg a fyddai'n elwa o hyfforddiant o'r fath. Ond am beth y soniwn yma? Beth yw hyfforddiant sefydlu? Yn y bôn, mae'n ffordd o ddysgu'r sgiliau y mae pob un ohonom yn eu datblygu'n gynnar i blant a phobl ifanc sydd â nam ar eu golwg. Mae plentyn neu unigolyn ifanc sy'n gallu gweld fel arfer yn datblygu ystod o sgiliau annibyniaeth wrth iddynt dyfu i fyny gyda'u teulu. Mae'r sgiliau hyn yn cynnwys gallu symud o gwmpas heb frifo'u hunain a gallu cyrraedd lle maent yn dymuno bod yn ddiogel. Mae sgiliau annibyniaeth yn cynnwys sgiliau ymarferol a chymdeithasol fel ymolchi, gwisgo, bwyta, yfed, siopa, coginio a gwneud ffrindiau. Mae plant a phobl ifanc sy'n gallu gweld yn dysgu'r sgiliau hyn o fewn eu teuluoedd, yn bennaf drwy wylio aelodau eraill o'r teulu. Ni all plant a phobl ifanc â nam ar eu golwg wylio a dysgu yn yr un ffordd â phlentyn sy'n gallu gweld. O ganlyniad, efallai na fydd llawer o sgiliau sylfaenol allweddol yn cael eu dysgu heb gymorth a chefnogaeth ychwanegol. Mae hyfforddiant sefydlu'n darparu ffyrdd amgen o ddysgu, gan ddefnyddio synhwyrau eraill y plentyn neu'r unigolyn ifanc, sef eu synhwyrau cyffwrdd, clywed, blasu, arogli a chydbwysedd. Mae'r dull hwn yn datblygu sgiliau symud cynnar plentyn ac yn ddefnyddiol i blant ag ystod o olwg, neu blant heb olwg o gwbl. Mae sefydlu yn y blynyddoedd cynnar hefyd yn helpu i ddatblygu ymwybyddiaeth plant o'u cyrff eu hunain, yn ogystal ag ymwybyddiaeth y plentyn o'r gofod o'u cwmpas pan fyddant yn llonydd neu'n symud a'r defnydd o'u synhwyrau. Mae arbenigwyr sefydlu'n gweithio'n agos gyda rhieni, staff ysgol a gweithwyr proffesiynol eraill, yn ogystal ag ar sail un i un gyda'r plentyn. Maent yn gymwys i addysgu strategaethau a sgiliau ymarferol i sicrhau cymaint â phosibl o annibyniaeth, ac maent yn gweithio mewn lleoliadau prif ffrwd ac arbenigol, yn ogystal ag yn y cartref ac allan yn y gymuned. Mae hyfforddiant sefydlu'n darparu cymaint â phosibl o annibyniaeth bersonol i blentyn neu unigolyn ifanc a chanddynt anghenion gweledol, yn ogystal â helpu i'w paratoi ar gyfer camu ymlaen fel oedolyn ifanc annibynnol i goleg, prifysgol, prentisiaethau neu waith. Fis Hydref diwethaf, cefais y pleser o gyfarfod ag Amy, menyw ifanc sydd wedi elwa o gymorth sefydlu gan Cŵn Tywys Cymru. Dywedodd Amy wrthyf fod y cymorth a gafodd wedi rhoi hyder iddi fynd i'r brifysgol, a'i bod hyd yn oed yn cynllunio taith i America, breuddwyd gydol oes na fyddai wedi bod yn bosibl heb gymorth sefydlu. Mae sefydlu'n galluogi'r bobl ifanc hyn i wneud y pethau y mae pob un ohonom yn eu cymryd yn ganiataol, pethau y mae pob un ohonom yn eu gwneud heb feddwl ddwywaith, pethau y dylai pawb allu eu gwneud, boed yn fynd allan i chwarae gyda ffrindiau neu fynd i deithio yn eich arddegau hwyr. Heb gymorth sefydlu i blant a phobl ifanc Cymru, sut y gallwn gael unrhyw obaith o greu Cymru gyfartal? Os nad oes gennym gyfle cyfartal, nid oes gennym gydraddoldeb. Yn anffodus i blant a phobl ifanc â nam ar eu golwg yng Nghymru, mae ble rydych yn byw yn cael effaith enfawr ar eich cyfleoedd. Mae loteri cod post ar gyfer gwasanaethau sefydlu. Mae'r ddarpariaeth yn brin ar draws gogledd Cymru, lle mae un arbenigwr yn gwasanaethu ardal fawr iawn. Yng Ngheredigion, Conwy, Merthyr Tudful a sir Benfro, nid oes gwasanaeth o gwbl. Dim ond 11.4 o arbenigwyr sefydlu cyfwerth ag amser llawn sydd ar gael ledled Cymru, sy'n llawer is na'r hyn sydd ei angen i ddarparu o leiaf un arbenigwr fesul 100 o blant â nam ar eu golwg. Fel y mae ein cynnig yn galw amdano, mae angen inni roi cynllun gweithlu ar waith ar fyrder, ymrwymiad strategol i sicrhau ateb hirdymor. Wrth inni betruso ac oedi, mae plant dall a rhannol ddall yn colli cymorth arbenigol hanfodol i'w galluogi i gyflawni eu potensial llawn. Gall gweinidogion ddod o hyd i ychydig filiynau o bunnoedd i lawr cefn soffa Trysorlys Cymru i achub maes awyr sy'n methu, ac eto, nid ydynt yn gwneud unrhyw beth i gefnogi miloedd o bobl ifanc â nam ar eu golwg yng Nghymru. Rwyf hefyd yn siomedig fod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi cynnig gwelliant i'n cynnig i drosglwyddo'r baich i lywodraeth leol. Ers blynyddoedd, mae Gweinidogion Cymru wedi cael gwybod bod darpariaeth sefydlu arbenigol wedi bod yn ddiffygiol, ac eto, ni chymerwyd unrhyw gamau, ni roddwyd unrhyw gynlluniau ar waith. Ni allwn adael cynllunio cenedlaethol i awdurdodau lleol. Gweinidogion Cymru sy'n gyfrifol yn y pen draw am sicrhau bod cynghorau'n cydymffurfio â'u dyletswyddau, yn ogystal â sicrhau bod gan Gymru'r gweithlu sydd ei angen i ddarparu cymorth sefydlu i'n pobl ifanc. Rwy'n annog fy nghyd-Aelodau i sefyll dros bobl ifanc â nam ar eu golwg drwy gefnogi ein cynnig heddiw a gwrthod gwelliant y Llywodraeth. Gyda'r cynllun cywir ar gyfer y gweithlu ar waith a digon o arbenigwyr sefydlu wedi'u cyflogi i ddiwallu anghenion plant a phobl ifanc â nam ar eu golwg, gallwn wneud plentyndod yn gyfartal. Drwy gael gwared ar rwystrau - nad ydym ni, sydd heb nam ar ein golwg yn eu gweld, yn eironig ddigon - gallwn sicrhau bod pob plentyn â nam ar eu golwg yng Nghymru yn cael cyfle cyfartal ac yn cael ffynnu. Diolch yn fawr.

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on the Minister for health to move formally amendment 1.

Rwyf wedi dethol y gwelliant i'r cynnig, a dwi'n galw ar y Gweinidog iechyd i gynnig yn ffurfiol gwelliant 1.

Diolch, Llywydd. Plaid Cymru welcomes this debate today, and we will be supporting the Conservatives' motion, and that's because it's clear that many of our young people and children in Wales with vision impairments are being failed in the sense that they are not being supported to live as autonomously, independently and freely as they are entitled to, as noted in article 26 of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. We in Wales have prided ourselves on leading the way when it comes to children's rights. The Welsh Government has had to have had due regard to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, and article 23 says that 'a child with a disability has the right to live a full and decent life with dignity and, as far as possible, independence and to play an active part in the community.' The Welsh Government has committed also to progressive steps to ensure the rights of disabled people. The stated aim of their disability rights taskforce is to remove inequalities experienced by disabled people, and among the priority areas of that programme of work are children and young people. You would think, therefore, that the findings in an article in the British Journal of Visual Impairment authored by Guide Dogs UK, the University of Liverpool and Bangor University that the key to empowering and supporting children and young people with vision impairment to achieve their potential lies in the delivery of habilitation training would be wholly aligned with the Government's vision. It is, therefore, disappointing to hear from Guide Dogs Cymru that there are potentially 2,000 children and young people with vision impairment who would benefit from the better provision of habilitation training that is not currently being provided. The research that informs this article found that 37 per cent of parents they surveyed reported that their child hadn't received mobility training at all during the previous year. Similarly, in 2019, the Royal National Institute of Blind People suggested as much as a third of children with visual impairments are suffering as a result of a lack of money in council budgets to pay for the extra support they need. This was before even accounting for the current inflationary and budgetary crises facing our local authorities at the moment. So, it's evident, we believe, that Welsh Government have to do more work alongside our local authorities to ensure this essential service is provided to these children and young people who need it in order to achieve the independent living skills noted in the motion, which I'm sure every Member would support as crucially important, and as outlined by Altaf Hussain. I'd also like to briefly highlight some other points made by the RNIB in relation to this matter that perhaps the Conservatives could perhaps push their Westminster counterparts to take action on if they truly have the best interests of blind and partially sighted people at heart. Because, even before this cost-of-living crisis, one in five blind and partially sighted people said they had some or great difficulty in making ends meet, a situation that has only now worsened in the light of the current economic pressures. People with sight loss are twice as likely to live in a household that has a total income of £1,500 a month or less, and, from this spring, they will be spending upwards of 16 per cent of their total income on energy. Many are reducing the use of lighting and assistive technologies, which are crucial, of course, both to their safety and which support everyday independent living. Some blind and partially sighted people will this year no longer be eligible for the Warm Home discount either. In their recent cost-of-living survey, the RNIB found that more than a third of respondents said they often skipped meals. One said, 'I am missing a meal today. I have a small bowl of cereal, then miss lunch and have something cheap in the evening like beans on toast. This is the only way I'm surviving. I'm also taking less showers now, which makes me feel dirty and uncomfortable.' People with sight loss are more reliant on benefits as only one in four registered blind and partially sighted people of working age are in employment. So, while supporting your motion today, Plaid Cymru asks the Conservatives, while calling on the Welsh Government to do all it can to support children and young people with sight impairment and ensure they're funding and supporting local authorities in Wales to provide that support needed for habilitation and other services, to also call on their Government in Westminster to properly support disabled people through the benefits system. Because, Llywydd, no-one in twenty-first century Wales, least of all those with disabilities, should have to skip a meal or feel unable to afford to keep clean. Diolch.

Diolch, Lywydd. Mae Plaid Cymru yn croesawu'r ddadl hon heddiw, a byddwn yn cefnogi cynnig y Ceidwadwyr, a hynny oherwydd ei bod yn amlwg fod llawer o'n pobl ifanc a'n plant yng Nghymru sydd â nam ar eu golwg yn cael cam yn yr ystyr nad ydynt yn cael eu cefnogi i fyw mor annibynnol a rhydd ag y mae ganddynt hawl i fyw, fel y nodir yn erthygl 26 o Gonfensiwn y Cenhedloedd Unedig ar Hawliau Pobl ag Anableddau. Rydym ni yng Nghymru yn falch ein bod yn arwain y ffordd o ran hawliau plant. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi gorfod rhoi sylw dyledus i Gonfensiwn y Cenhedloedd Unedig ar Hawliau'r Plentyn, ac mae erthygl 23 yn dweud bod 'gan blentyn ag anabledd hawl i fyw bywyd llawn a gweddus gydag urddas, ac i fod mor annibynnol ag y bo modd, ac i chwarae rhan weithredol yn y gymuned.' Mae Llywodraeth Cymru hefyd wedi ymrwymo i gamau blaengar i sicrhau hawliau pobl anabl. Nod datganedig eu tasglu hawliau anabledd yw cael gwared ar yr anghydraddoldebau a wynebir gan bobl anabl, ac mae plant a phobl ifanc yn un o feysydd blaenoriaeth y rhaglen waith honno. Byddech yn meddwl, felly, y byddai canfyddiadau erthygl yn y British Journal of Visual Impairment a ysgrifennwyd gan Guide Dogs UK, Prifysgol Lerpwl a Phrifysgol Bangor fod darparu hyfforddiant sefydlu'n allweddol i rymuso a chefnogi plant a phobl ifanc â nam ar eu golwg i gyflawni eu potensial yn cyd-fynd yn llwyr â gweledigaeth y Llywodraeth. Mae'n siomedig clywed felly gan Cŵn Tywys Cymru y gallai fod 2,000 o blant a phobl ifanc â nam ar eu golwg a fyddai'n elwa o ddarpariaeth well o hyfforddiant sefydlu nad yw'n cael ei ddarparu ar hyn o bryd. Canfu'r ymchwil y mae'r erthygl yn seiliedig arni fod 37 y cant o'r rhieni a holwyd yn dweud nad oedd eu plentyn wedi cael hyfforddiant symudedd o gwbl yn ystod y flwyddyn flaenorol. Yn yr un modd, yn 2019, awgrymodd Sefydliad Cenedlaethol Brenhinol Pobl Ddall fod cymaint â thraean o blant â nam ar eu golwg yn dioddef o ganlyniad i ddiffyg arian yng nghyllidebau cynghorau i dalu am y cymorth ychwanegol sydd ei angen arnynt. Roedd hyn yn wir hyd yn oed cyn ystyried yr argyfyngau chwyddiant a chyllidebol sy'n wynebu ein hawdurdodau lleol ar hyn o bryd. Felly, credwn ei bod yn amlwg fod yn rhaid i Lywodraeth Cymru wneud mwy o waith ochr yn ochr â'n hawdurdodau lleol i sicrhau bod y gwasanaeth hanfodol hwn yn cael ei ddarparu i'r plant a'r bobl ifanc sydd ei angen er mwyn caffael y sgiliau byw'n annibynnol a nodir yn y cynnig, y byddai pob Aelod, rwy'n siŵr, yn eu cefnogi fel rhai hanfodol bwysig, ac fel yr amlinellwyd gan Altaf Hussain. Hoffwn dynnu sylw'n gryno hefyd at rai pwyntiau eraill a wnaed gan yr RNIB mewn perthynas â'r mater y gallai'r Ceidwadwyr, efallai, bwyso ar gyd-aelodau eu plaid yn San Steffan i gymryd camau yn eu cylch os ydynt o ddifrif yn poeni am fuddiannau pobl ddall a rhannol ddall. Oherwydd, hyd yn oed cyn yr argyfwng costau byw hwn, dywedodd un o bob pump o bobl ddall a rhannol ddall eu bod wedi cael rhywfaint o drafferth neu gryn drafferth cael deupen llinyn ynghyd, sefyllfa sydd ond wedi gwaethygu bellach yng ngoleuni'r pwysau economaidd presennol. Mae pobl sydd â nam ar eu golwg ddwywaith yn fwy tebygol o fod yn byw ar aelwyd sydd â chyfanswm incwm o £1,500 y mis neu lai, ac o'r gwanwyn hwn ymlaen, byddant yn gwario mwy nag 16 y cant o gyfanswm eu hincwm ar ynni. Mae llawer yn lleihau'r defnydd o oleuadau a thechnolegau cynorthwyol, sy'n hanfodol, wrth gwrs, i'w diogelwch ac yn cefnogi byw'n annibynnol o ddydd i ddydd. Ni fydd rhai pobl ddall a rhannol ddall yn gymwys bellach eleni ar gyfer y gostyngiad Cartrefi Cynnes ychwaith. Yn eu harolwg costau byw diweddar, canfu'r RNIB fod mwy na thraean o'r ymatebwyr yn dweud eu bod yn aml yn mynd heb brydau bwyd. Dywedodd un, 'Rwy'n mynd heb bryd bwyd heddiw. Rwy'n cael dysgl fach o rawnfwyd, yna'n mynd heb ginio ac yn cael rhywbeth rhad gyda'r nos fel ffa pob ar dost. Dyma'r unig ffordd rwy'n goroesi. Rwyf hefyd yn cael llai o gawodydd nawr, sy'n gwneud imi deimlo'n fudr ac yn anghyfforddus.' Mae pobl sydd â nam ar eu golwg yn fwy dibynnol ar fudd-daliadau gan mai dim ond un o bob pedwar o bobl o oedran gweithio sydd wedi'u cofrestru'n ddall a rhannol ddall sydd mewn gwaith. Felly, wrth gefnogi eich cynnig heddiw, ac wrth alw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i wneud popeth yn ei gallu i gefnogi plant a phobl ifanc â nam ar eu golwg a sicrhau eu bod yn ariannu ac yn cefnogi awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru i ddarparu'r cymorth hwnnw sydd ei angen ar gyfer sefydlu a gwasanaethau eraill, mae Plaid Cymru yn gofyn i'r Ceidwadwyr alw hefyd ar eu Llywodraeth yn San Steffan i gefnogi pobl anabl yn briodol drwy'r system fudd-daliadau. Oherwydd, Lywydd, ni ddylai unrhyw un yng Nghymru'r unfed ganrif ar hugain, yn enwedig pobl ag anableddau, orfod mynd heb bryd bwyd neu deimlo na allant fforddio cadw'n lân. Diolch.

I wanted to start by saying that, although I recognise providing for the complexity of disabilities that exist in Wales is challenging, I'm nonetheless still surprised, given all the information that we know about the positive impact of helping those with disabilities to gain independence and to live prosperous and fulfilling lives, and how it can bring positive contributions to a wider society, that people are still finding themselves having to fight for the support that they are fully entitled to, and have to work so hard to get those in power to take their needs seriously. Indeed, I am astonished that, in Wales, we have a postcode lottery to habilitation services. It is simply not right that some local authorities do not provide this support, and it's wholly unfair to those and their families who've been left to source these services on their own at one of the most difficult, stressful and uncertain times in their lives. It is also wrong, for those who are lucky enough to have a local authority support them, that they find themselves having to jump through so many hoops before they receive those services. Whilst there is an agreement when access to habilitation is required, the experience of those who need the service is still very poor. They find that there is little to patchy understanding of what habilitation entails, why it is needed, and the length of time the support is required for. The process of receiving habilitation training is, and continues to be, a source of great worry. We know that habilitation is best begun as early as possible when sight loss is diagnosed, and is particularly important for children in early years, because it helps not only to develop a child's awareness of their own body and condition, but an awareness of the space around them, whilst still developing the use of their other senses. So, in many ways, it is time critical for these services to be available, and for people to receive them as quickly as possible. Having to spend several months or even years waiting to receive habilitation not only makes it more difficult for individuals, but is counterproductive, because it often means that these services are required for much longer. Astonishingly, research shows that the older a person is, the less likely they are to receive habilitation support. So, it is not acceptable that, in a number of local authority areas, young people with vision impairment are not receiving mobility and independence training at a key time in their education. The difference that habilitation support can make is profound. It can unlock so much potential from children and young people with vision impairment. It will enable them to fully engage with their education and help them prepare for the world around them, such as moving to college or university, applying for apprenticeships or work, and to live as an independent young adult. Furthermore, we know that there's a high social return on investment, and that, for every £1 spent on habilitation services, £7.13 is created in social value. While some of the value relates to parents, the majority of the value is based on the children and young people themselves. Indeed, a habilitation service creates £5.72 for every £1 spent, solely from service user outcomes alone. Finally, I want to finish by highlighting the benefits of habilitation felt by people. The improvement in confidence and the ability to carry out tasks for themselves is life changing, and this in turn improves emotional well-being and mental and physical health, which they desperately need. With this in mind, I would urge everyone here to fully support this motion. The Welsh Government needs to act urgently to ensure that people are getting the services they require. They need to help remove the stress and worry for those affected by reducing red tape and the hurdles that people go through. And they also need to finally provide much-needed leadership on this, to get local authorities to provide the services they're duty bound to provide. Thank you.

Roeddwn am ddechrau drwy ddweud, er fy mod yn cydnabod bod darparu ar gyfer cymhlethdod yr anableddau sy'n bodoli yng Nghymru yn heriol, fy mod yn dal i synnu, serch hynny, o ystyried yr holl wybodaeth sydd gennym am effaith gadarnhaol helpu pobl ag anableddau i gael annibyniaeth ac i fyw bywydau llewyrchus a boddhaus, a sut y gall hynny arwain at gyfraniadau cadarnhaol i'r gymdeithas ehangach, fod pobl yn dal i orfod brwydro am y cymorth y mae ganddynt hawl llawn iddo, ac yn gorfod gweithio mor galed i wneud i'r rheini mewn grym fod o ddifrif ynghylch eu hanghenion. Yn wir, rwy'n synnu bod gennym ni, yng Nghymru, loteri cod post o ran gwasanaethau sefydlu. Yn syml, nid yw'n iawn nad yw rhai awdurdodau lleol yn darparu'r cymorth hwn, ac mae'n gwbl annheg i'r rheini a'u teuluoedd sydd wedi gorfod dod o hyd i'r gwasanaethau hyn ar eu pennau eu hunain ar un o'r adegau mwyaf anodd, dirdynnol ac ansicr yn eu bywydau. Nid yw'n iawn ychwaith fod y rheini sy'n ddigon ffodus i fod ag awdurdod lleol sy'n eu cefnogi yn gorfod mynd drwy'r felin i'r fath raddau cyn iddynt gael y gwasanaethau hynny. Er bod cytundeb ynghylch pryd y mae angen mynediad at sefydlu, mae profiad y rheini sydd angen y gwasanaeth yn dal yn wael iawn. Maent yn gweld nad oes fawr ddim dealltwriaeth o'r hyn y mae sefydlu'n ei olygu, pam fod ei angen, ac am ba hyd y mae angen y cymorth. Mae'r broses o dderbyn hyfforddiant sefydlu wedi bod yn destun cryn bryder, ac yn parhau i fod. Gwyddom ei bod yn well dechrau sefydlu cyn gynted â phosibl pan geir diagnosis o nam ar y golwg, a'i fod yn arbennig o bwysig i blant yn y blynyddoedd cynnar, gan ei fod yn helpu plant nid yn unig i ddatblygu ymwybyddiaeth o'u cyrff eu hunain a'u cyflwr, ond hefyd ymwybyddiaeth o'r gofod o'u cwmpas, wrth i'w synhwyrau eraill barhau i ddatblygu. Felly, mewn sawl ffordd, mae'n hollbwysig yn nhermau amser i'r gwasanaethau hyn fod ar gael, ac i bobl eu cael cyn gynted â phosibl. Mae gorfod treulio sawl mis neu flynyddoedd hyd yn oed yn aros am gymorth sefydlu nid yn unig yn gwneud pethau'n anos i unigolion, ond mae'n wrthgynhyrchiol, oherwydd yn aml, mae'n golygu bod angen y gwasanaethau hyn am lawer hirach. Yn rhyfeddol, mae ymchwil yn dangos mai po hynaf yw unigolyn, y lleiaf tebygol ydynt o gael cymorth sefydlu. Felly, nid yw'n dderbyniol, mewn nifer o ardaloedd awdurdodau lleol, nad yw pobl ifanc â nam ar eu golwg yn cael hyfforddiant symudedd ac annibyniaeth ar adeg allweddol yn eu haddysg. Mae'r gwahaniaeth y gall cymorth sefydlu ei wneud yn sylweddol. Gall ddatgloi cymaint o botensial i blant a phobl ifanc â nam ar eu golwg. Bydd yn eu galluogi i ymgysylltu'n llawn â'u haddysg ac yn eu helpu i baratoi ar gyfer y byd o'u cwmpas, megis symud i goleg neu brifysgol, gwneud cais am brentisiaethau neu waith, a byw fel oedolyn ifanc annibynnol. Yn ogystal, gwyddom fod buddsoddiad yn arwain at elw cymdeithasol sylweddol, ac am bob £1 a werir ar wasanaethau sefydlu, fod £7.13 yn cael ei greu mewn gwerth cymdeithasol. Er bod rhywfaint o'r gwerth yn ymwneud â rhieni, mae'r rhan fwyaf o'r gwerth yn seiliedig ar y plant a'r bobl ifanc eu hunain. Yn wir, mae gwasanaeth sefydlu'n creu £5.72 am bob £1 a werir, yn sgil canlyniadau defnyddwyr gwasanaethau'n unig. Yn olaf, hoffwn gloi drwy dynnu sylw at fanteision sefydlu a deimlir gan bobl. Mae'r cynnydd mewn hyder a'r gallu i gyflawni tasgau drostynt eu hunain yn newid bywydau, ac mae hyn yn ei dro yn gwella lles emosiynol ac iechyd meddwl a chorfforol, sy'n rhywbeth y mae ei angen arnynt yn daer. Gyda hyn mewn golwg, hoffwn annog pawb yma i gefnogi'r cynnig hwn yn llawn. Mae angen i Lywodraeth Cymru weithredu ar frys i sicrhau bod pobl yn cael y gwasanaethau sydd eu hangen arnynt. Mae angen iddynt helpu i gael gwared ar y straen a'r gofid i'r rhai yr effeithir arnynt drwy leihau biwrocratiaeth a'r rhwystrau y mae pobl yn eu hwynebu. Ac mae angen iddynt hefyd roi arweiniad mawr ei angen ar hyn, er mwyn sicrhau bod awdurdodau lleol yn darparu'r gwasanaethau y mae dyletswydd arnynt i'w darparu. Diolch.

I'm pleased to take part in this debate this afternoon. Coming from a rehabilitation background in physiotherapy in the NHS, it's pleasing to see the work being done to improve children's mobility, navigation and independent living skills, in order to better the lives of people who are visually impaired or blind. I think that should be celebrated. I'm also pleased to see the support for the idea of this motion from Guide Dogs Cymru, as I think that the role that guide dogs play in supporting the blind and visually impaired is remarkable and also needs celebrating. It's quite incredible, really, what versatility dogs show in their training to become guide dogs, and how adaptable they become to their environment, which is a celebration in itself, as it supports many people who are most in need of them. Most of the dogs that are used for guide dogs are Labradors and retrievers, and they can be the most loving, caring - greedy, but loyal - dog breeds you will find, and serve the blind and visually impaired so well in their duties. I and the Welsh Conservatives firmly believe that everyone in Wales deserves to live their life with as much independence as possible, including those with disabilities such as blindness and visual impairment. Guide dogs are often the greatest way, as I've mentioned, for visually impaired people to go out and live their daily lives. Habilitation training allows young people to be young people by being able to find new friends and do normal things with them, such as go out eating, shopping and playing, just to name a few examples. Equally, it also allows young people to continue their independence into further education and employment. It's important to note also that the Welsh Conservatives respect and admire the parents of these young people, who are the first habilitation trainers and do fantastic jobs. However, there is a need for professional practitioners to provide qualified training that supports both the young people and indeed the parents as well, and the cost of up to £600,000 for providing at least 20 habilitation specialists is a price worth paying, in my opinion, to ensure that this Parliament believes in giving young people in Wales independence and the easiest life possible. I'd urge Members to support our motion unamended this afternoon. Thank you.

Rwy'n falch o gymryd rhan yn y ddadl hon y prynhawn yma. A minnau'n dod o gefndir adsefydlu ym maes ffisiotherapi yn y GIG, mae'n braf gweld y gwaith sy'n mynd rhagddo i wella sgiliau symud o gwmpas, byw'n annibynnol a symudedd plant, er mwyn gwella bywydau pobl ddall a phobl â nam ar eu golwg. Credaf y dylid dathlu hynny. Rwyf hefyd yn falch o weld cefnogaeth Cŵn Tywys Cymru i'r syniad y tu ôl i'r cynnig hwn, gan fy mod o'r farn fod rôl cŵn tywys yn cefnogi pobl ddall a phobl â nam ar eu golwg yn rhyfeddol, a bod angen dathlu hynny hefyd. Mae'n eithaf anhygoel, a dweud y gwir, pa mor amryddawn yw cŵn yn eu hyfforddiant i ddod yn gŵn tywys, a'r ffordd y maent yn gallu addasu i'w hamgylchedd, sy'n rhywbeth i'w ddathlu ynddo'i hun, gan ei fod yn cefnogi llawer o'r bobl sydd fwyaf o'u hangen. Mae'r rhan fwyaf o'r cŵn sy'n cael eu hyfforddi i fod yn gŵn tywys yn Labradoriaid ac yn adargwn, a gallant fod y bridiau cŵn mwyaf cariadus, gofalgar - barus, ond teyrngar - y dowch ar eu traws, ac maent yn gwasanaethu pobl ddall a phobl â nam ar eu golwg mor dda yn eu dyletswyddau. Rwyf fi a'r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig yn credu'n gryf fod pawb yng Nghymru yn haeddu byw eu bywydau gyda chymaint o annibyniaeth â phosibl, gan gynnwys pobl ag anableddau megis dallineb a nam ar eu golwg. Fel y soniais, cŵn tywys yw'r ffordd orau yn aml i bobl â nam ar eu golwg fynd allan i fyw eu bywydau bob dydd. Mae hyfforddiant sefydlu'n galluogi pobl ifanc i fod yn bobl ifanc drwy allu dod o hyd i ffrindiau newydd a gwneud pethau normal gyda hwy, fel mynd allan i fwyta, siopa a chwarae, i nodi rhai pethau'n unig. Yn yr un modd, mae hefyd yn galluogi pobl ifanc i barhau â'u hannibyniaeth drwy addysg bellach a chyflogaeth. Mae'n bwysig nodi hefyd fod y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig yn parchu ac yn edmygu rhieni'r bobl ifanc hyn, sef yr hyfforddwyr sefydlu cyntaf, ac maent yn gwneud gwaith gwych. Fodd bynnag, mae angen i ymarferwyr proffesiynol ddarparu hyfforddiant cymwysedig sy'n cefnogi'r bobl ifanc, a'r rhieni hefyd yn wir, ac mae'r gost o hyd at £600,000 am ddarparu o leiaf 20 o arbenigwyr sefydlu'n bris gwerth ei dalu yn fy marn i, i sicrhau bod y Senedd hon yn credu mewn rhoi annibyniaeth a'r bywyd rhwyddaf posibl i bobl ifanc Cymru. Rwy'n annog yr Aelodau i gefnogi ein cynnig heb ei ddiwygio y prynhawn yma. Diolch.

I've been very fortunate since having been elected that I was able to work quite closely with Andrea Gordon. Now, she's from Guide Dogs Cymru and, through her, I was able to meet numerous individuals who actually have visual impairments, and it really made me understand a lot more about their needs and what they have to have in life. Some of the things that we often don't even think about can be huge barriers for people and children with visual impairments, and it's vital that we as Members from every party do all we can to make all aspects of our society accessible for those with visual impairments, and also those with disabilities as well. For me, habilitation training is indeed the key to helping set children and young people up for the rest of their lives. Not only does it go a long way in helping them live independently, but it also helps prepare them, as my colleagues have mentioned, for college, work, apprenticeships, ultimately university, and later life as well. Habilitation training would teach those with visual needs the vital skills that other children would perhaps have traditionally learned through sight. RNIB Cymru estimates that there are 265 children with sight loss in the Aneurin Bevan health board, all of whom would greatly benefit from habilitation training. Now, as I mentioned, habilitation training, which is a vital part of children's educational development, equips young people with listening skills, social skills, toilet training, dressing skills, money recognition, and even shopping skills. It can also teach people how to travel independently, use public transport, assess risk, and also prepare their own meals. I'm sure that everyone here will ultimately agree that these are essential skills and every single person and child should have and needs these sorts of skills in today's day and age. You cannot put a price on a person's freedom and independence. As my colleagues Gareth Davies and Altaf Hussain have mentioned, simply employing at least 20 specialists to offer training to the estimated 2,000 visually impaired children in Wales would roughly cost £600,000 at most. When you compare that to some of the mammoth sums that the Government has spent on some frivolous projects - and I won't repeat what my colleagues have said - such as Gilestone farm, and Cardiff Airport, it really is a drop in the ocean. It is paramount that this Government comes forward with a workforce plan and engages with councils all across Wales to make sure that they have at least one specialist per 100 children who are indeed visually impaired. We need to ensure equality and fairness, because there is nothing more heartbreaking for me to hear than a child being denied essential services just because of a postcode lottery system. Without a doubt, there are some incredible charities out there, supporting visually impaired children and young people going forward, but now it's time for the Government to step in and take action. We can all make a real difference to the lives of thousands of visually impaired children in all four corners of Wales, so I really hope that you all support our motion here today. Thank you so much.

Bûm yn ffodus iawn ers cael fy ethol fy mod wedi gallu gweithio'n eithaf agos gydag Andrea Gordon. Nawr, mae hi'n gweithio i Cŵn Tywys Cymru, a thrwyddi hi, gallais gyfarfod â nifer o unigolion sydd â nam ar eu golwg ac mae wedi gwneud imi ddeall llawer mwy am eu hanghenion a'r hyn sy'n rhaid iddynt ei gael mewn bywyd. Mae rhai o'r pethau nad ydym hyd yn oed yn meddwl amdanynt yn gallu bod yn rhwystrau enfawr i bobl a phlant sydd â nam ar eu golwg, ac mae'n hanfodol ein bod ni fel Aelodau o bob plaid yn gwneud popeth yn ein gallu i wneud pob agwedd ar ein cymdeithas yn hygyrch i'r rhai sydd â nam ar eu golwg, a rhai sydd ag anableddau hefyd. I mi, hyfforddiant sefydlu yw'r allwedd i helpu i gefnogi plant a phobl ifanc am weddill eu bywydau. Mae'n mynd yn bell i'w helpu i fyw yn annibynnol, ac mae hefyd yn helpu i'w paratoi, fel y soniodd fy nghyd-Aelodau, ar gyfer coleg, gwaith, prentisiaethau, prifysgol yn y pen draw, a bywyd wedyn hefyd. Byddai hyfforddiant sefydlu'n dysgu sgiliau hanfodol y byddai plant eraill wedi'u dysgu'n draddodiadol drwy allu gweld i'r rhai sydd ag anghenion gweledol. Mae RNIB Cymru yn amcangyfrif bod yna 265 o blant sydd â nam ar eu golwg ym mwrdd iechyd Aneurin Bevan, a byddai pob un ohonynt yn elwa'n fawr o hyfforddiant sefydlu. Nawr, fel y soniais, mae hyfforddiant sefydlu, sy'n rhan hanfodol o ddatblygiad addysgol plant, yn rhoi sgiliau gwrando, sgiliau cymdeithasol, hyfforddiant toiled, sgiliau gwisgo, adnabod arian, a hyd yn oed sgiliau siopa i bobl ifanc. Gall hefyd ddysgu pobl sut i deithio'n annibynnol, defnyddio trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus, asesu risg, a pharatoi eu prydau eu hunain hefyd. Rwy'n siŵr y bydd pawb yma'n cytuno yn y pen draw fod y rhain yn sgiliau hanfodol y dylai pob person a phlentyn eu cael yn yr oes sydd ohoni. Ni allwch roi pris ar ryddid ac annibyniaeth person. Fel y soniodd fy nghyd-Aelodau Gareth Davies ac Altaf Hussain, byddai cyflogi o leiaf 20 o arbenigwyr i gynnig hyfforddiant i'r oddeutu 2,000 o blant â nam ar eu golwg yng Nghymru yn costio tua £600,000 ar y mwyaf. Pan fyddwch chi'n cymharu hynny â rhai o'r symiau enfawr y mae'r Llywodraeth wedi'u gwario ar brosiectau gwamal - ac nid wyf yn mynd i ailadrodd yr hyn y mae fy nghyd-Aelodau wedi'i ddweud - fel fferm Gilestone, a Maes Awyr Caerdydd, diferyn bach yn y môr ydyw mewn gwirionedd. Mae'n hollbwysig fod y Llywodraeth hon yn cyflwyno cynllun ar gyfer y gweithlu ac yn ymgysylltu â chynghorau ledled Cymru i wneud yn siŵr fod ganddynt o leiaf un arbenigwr i bob 100 o blant sydd â nam ar eu golwg. Rydym angen sicrhau cydraddoldeb a thegwch, oherwydd nid oes dim yn fwy torcalonnus i mi ei glywed na bod plentyn yn cael ei amddifadu o wasanaethau hanfodol oherwydd system loteri cod post. Heb os, mae rhai elusennau anhygoel i'w cael, sy'n cefnogi plant a phobl ifanc â nam ar eu golwg wrth symud ymlaen, ond nawr mae'n bryd i'r Llywodraeth gamu ymlaen a gweithredu. Gallwn i gyd wneud gwahaniaeth go iawn i fywydau miloedd o blant â nam ar eu golwg ym mhob rhan o Gymru, felly gobeithio'n fawr y bydd pawb ohonoch yn cefnogi ein cynnig yma heddiw. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The health Minister now to contribute to the debate, Eluned Morgan.

Y Gweinidog iechyd nawr i gyfrannu i'r ddadl, Eluned Morgan.

Diolch yn fawr. I would like to thank the Conservative Party for bringing forward this important debate about habilitation support for visually impaired children in Wales. I must say, I agree with the sentiment in the motion that there is more that should be done for this group of children. I note the Guide Dogs Cymru research that states that 2,000 sight-impaired children could benefit from access to habilitation training here in Wales, and many of you have noted that in your contributions. That is an important point. However, it is important also to understand the need for both habilitation and rehabilitation services in the round. Providing for the social care and related needs of their local populations is an important local responsibility. Under the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, local authorities and health boards must work together via regional partnership boards to assess, plan for and meet the care and support needs of their population, including in relation to sensory impairments.

Diolch yn fawr. Hoffwn ddiolch i'r Blaid Geidwadol am gyflwyno'r ddadl bwysig hon ar gymorth sefydlu i blant sydd â nam ar eu golwg yng Nghymru. Rhaid imi ddweud, rwy'n cytuno â'r teimlad yn y cynnig fod mwy y dylid ei wneud ar gyfer y grŵp hwn o blant. Nodaf ymchwil Cŵn Tywys Cymru sy'n datgan y gallai 2,000 o blant â nam ar eu golwg elwa o gael mynediad at hyfforddiant sefydlu yma yng Nghymru, ac mae llawer ohonoch wedi nodi hynny yn eich cyfraniadau. Mae hwnnw'n bwynt pwysig. Fodd bynnag, mae'n bwysig deall yr angen am wasanaethau sefydlu ac adsefydlu yn eu cyfanrwydd hefyd. Mae darparu ar gyfer gofal cymdeithasol ac anghenion cysylltiedig eu poblogaethau lleol yn gyfrifoldeb lleol pwysig. O dan Ddeddf Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a Llesiant (Cymru) 2014, rhaid i awdurdodau lleol a byrddau iechyd gydweithio drwy fyrddau partneriaeth rhanbarthol i asesu, cynllunio a diwallu anghenion gofal a chymorth eu poblogaeth, gan gynnwys mewn perthynas â nam ar y synhwyrau.

Through the implementation of the Act, we have set out clear and unambiguous rights and responsibilities in relation to social care and related matters. That includes local authorities having regard to the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities when they discharge their functions. The expectations set out in the statutory framework under the Act also include duties on local authorities to establish and maintain a register of sight-impaired people, and provide them with habilitation services. These duties apply to all people - children as well as adults. To help understand the position in relation to adults, the Welsh Government funded the Wales Council of the Blind to scope and consider the services and support needed within this sector, and they engaged with stakeholders across Wales to consider service improvements. The final report highlighted the need for local and national initiatives aimed at providing training for new rehabilitation officers in Wales, as well as supporting existing officers through professional development training packages. Following this, in May 2022, the Deputy Minister for Social Services met with Wales Vision Forum to discuss some of the issues around the provision of rehabilitation and habilitation support across Wales. Since this meeting, officials within Welsh Government have continued to engage with Guide Dogs Cymru representatives to try and understand more about some of the challenges that exist with regard to access to this type of support for children and their families here in Wales, thus tying in this work to the work already done in relation to adult services. From this work, we acknowledge that, in some cases, access to habilitation training can be essential in enabling a child to develop personal mobility, navigation and independent living skills. Not only do habilitation officers work with the child, but they also work with the extended family to support them and teach them skills to enable them to effectively support the child to learn key life skills, through listening and touching. We know that the provision of habilitation specialists is variable across Wales, with some local authority areas having better access to this service than others. We also understand that, like many others in Wales, these services have been significantly impacted by the pandemic. Indeed, I understand that Guide Dogs Cymru have been providing some support for areas with little to no access, and I'm really grateful for the support that they've been able to offer to date. Therefore, taking account of the recommendations in the report, and further official-level discussions, a letter sent by the Deputy Minister to the Wales Vision Forum last November indicated that the Welsh Government would be keen to facilitate further engagement with representatives of the forum to identify ways to take forward improvements in habilitation. We believe it's important, reflecting the spirit of this debate, for that work to include consideration being given to children and young people's training needs, and how best to meet these. But I don't believe that it's wise to separate out workforce planning from the assessment of need, or to take away the role of developing these plans from those who have the responsibility and practical experience on the ground of social service delivery, and this is reflected in my amendments to the motion proposed. In closing, I have spoken principally about the role of social care, habilitation and rehabilitation, but health services also have an important role to play. Health professionals refer people with sensory loss to social care at the earliest opportunity to enable them to access services and support when they need it. But it's also vital that they play a role in treatment and care for such loss. NHS Wales eye and ear healthcare services are delivered differently from the rest of the UK. We have a much stronger emphasis on more treatment and care being available within the community, and our primary care services are underpinned by prudent healthcare principles. This puts a new emphasis on what would work best for patients and makes the most effective use of all available resources across primary and secondary care. Wales continues to be a leader in optometry and audiology provision of services, and the other UK devolved nations follow our lead. Scotland and Northern Ireland are already replicating the work that we've pioneered, and England are now seeking Welsh Government advice. They're particularly keen to learn about developments in primary cluster areas. I began by acknowledging that we are very aware of the challenges in this area, and I'll end by making it clear that we will continue to work with local authorities and other partners, with the aim of promoting comprehensive habilitation services to support children in Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

Drwy weithredu'r Ddeddf, rydym wedi nodi hawliau a chyfrifoldebau clir a diamwys mewn perthynas â gofal cymdeithasol a materion cysylltiedig. Mae hynny'n cynnwys awdurdodau lleol yn ystyried Confensiwn y Cenhedloedd Unedig ar Hawliau Pobl ag Anableddau pan fyddant yn cyflawni eu swyddogaethau. Mae'r disgwyliadau a nodir yn y fframwaith statudol o dan y Ddeddf hefyd yn cynnwys dyletswyddau awdurdodau lleol i sefydlu a chynnal cofrestr o bobl â nam ar eu golwg, a darparu gwasanaethau sefydlu iddynt. Mae'r dyletswyddau hyn yn berthnasol i bawb - plant yn ogystal ag oedolion. Er mwyn helpu i ddeall y sefyllfa mewn perthynas ag oedolion, ariannodd Llywodraeth Cymru Gyngor y Deillion Cymru i gwmpasu ac ystyried y gwasanaethau a'r gefnogaeth sydd eu hangen yn y sector hwn, ac fe wnaethant ymgysylltu â rhanddeiliaid ledled Cymru i ystyried gwelliannau i wasanaethau. Roedd yr adroddiad terfynol yn pwysleisio'r angen am gynlluniau lleol a chenedlaethol gyda'r nod o ddarparu hyfforddiant i swyddogion adsefydlu newydd yng Nghymru, yn ogystal â chefnogi swyddogion presennol drwy becynnau hyfforddiant datblygu proffesiynol. Yn dilyn hyn, ym mis Mai 2022, cyfarfu'r Dirprwy Weinidog Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol â Fforwm Golwg Cymru i drafod rhai o'r materion sy'n ymwneud â darparu cymorth adsefydlu a sefydlu ledled Cymru. Ers y cyfarfod hwn, mae swyddogion Llywodraeth Cymru wedi parhau i ymgysylltu â chynrychiolwyr Cŵn Tywys Cymru i geisio deall mwy am rai o'r heriau sy'n bodoli o ran mynediad at y math hwn o gymorth i blant a'u teuluoedd yma yng Nghymru, gan glymu'r gwaith hwn wrth y gwaith sydd eisoes wedi'i wneud mewn perthynas â gwasanaethau oedolion. O'r gwaith hwn, rydym yn cydnabod, mewn rhai achosion, y gall mynediad at hyfforddiant sefydlu fod yn hanfodol i alluogi plentyn i ddatblygu sgiliau symudedd personol, symud o gwmpas a byw'n annibynnol. Mae swyddogion sefydlu'n gweithio gyda'r plentyn, ond maent hefyd yn gweithio gyda'r teulu estynedig i'w cefnogi a dysgu sgiliau iddynt er mwyn eu galluogi i gynorthwyo'r plentyn yn effeithiol i ddysgu sgiliau bywyd allweddol, drwy wrando a chyffwrdd. Rydym yn gwybod bod y ddarpariaeth o arbenigwyr sefydlu yn amrywio ledled Cymru, gyda rhai o ardaloedd awdurdodau lleol yn cael gwell mynediad at y gwasanaeth hwn nag eraill. Deallwn hefyd, fel nifer o rai eraill yng Nghymru, fod y gwasanaethau hyn wedi cael eu heffeithio'n sylweddol gan y pandemig. Yn wir, deallaf fod Cŵn Tywys Cymru wedi bod yn rhoi ychydig o gymorth i ardaloedd heb lawer o fynediad, ac rwy'n ddiolchgar iawn am y gefnogaeth y maent wedi gallu ei chynnig hyd yma. Felly, gan ystyried yr argymhellion yn yr adroddiad, a thrafodaethau pellach ar lefel swyddogol, roedd llythyr a anfonwyd gan y Dirprwy Weinidog at Fforwm Golwg Cymru fis Tachwedd diwethaf yn nodi y byddai Llywodraeth Cymru yn awyddus i hwyluso ymgysylltiad pellach â chynrychiolwyr y fforwm i nodi ffyrdd o ddatblygu gwelliannau ym maes sefydlu. Credwn ei bod yn bwysig, i adlewyrchu ysbryd y ddadl hon, fod y gwaith hwnnw'n cynnwys ystyriaeth i anghenion hyfforddiant plant a phobl ifanc, a sut orau i ddiwallu'r rhain. Ond nid wyf yn credu ei bod hi'n ddoeth gwahanu cynlluniau'r gweithlu oddi wrth asesiad o angen, na mynd â'r swyddogaeth o ddatblygu'r cynlluniau hyn oddi wrth y rhai sydd â chyfrifoldeb a phrofiad ymarferol ar lawr gwlad o ddarparu gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, ac mae hyn yn cael ei adlewyrchu yn fy ngwelliannau i'r cynnig a gyflwynwyd. Wrth gloi, rwyf wedi siarad yn bennaf am rôl gofal cymdeithasol, sefydlu ac adsefydlu, ond mae gan wasanaethau iechyd rôl bwysig i'w chwarae hefyd. Mae gweithwyr iechyd proffesiynol yn cyfeirio pobl sydd â nam ar y synhwyrau at ofal cymdeithasol ar y cyfle cyntaf i'w galluogi i gael mynediad at wasanaethau a chymorth pan fydd eu hangen arnynt. Ond mae hefyd yn hanfodol eu bod yn chwarae rhan mewn triniaeth a gofal ar gyfer colled o'r fath. Mae gwasanaethau gofal iechyd y golwg a'r clyw GIG Cymru yn cael eu darparu'n wahanol i weddill y DU. Mae gennym bwyslais llawer cryfach ar sicrhau bod mwy o driniaeth a gofal ar gael o fewn y gymuned, ac mae ein gwasanaethau gofal iechyd sylfaenol yn seiliedig ar egwyddorion gofal iechyd darbodus. Mae hyn yn rhoi pwyslais newydd ar yr hyn a fyddai'n gweithio orau i gleifion ac yn gwneud y defnydd mwyaf effeithiol o'r holl adnoddau sydd ar gael ar draws gofal sylfaenol ac eilaidd. Mae Cymru'n parhau i fod yn arweinydd ar ddarparu gwasanaethau optometreg ac awdioleg, ac mae gwledydd datganoledig eraill y DU yn dilyn ein hesiampl. Mae'r Alban a Gogledd Iwerddon eisoes yn efelychu'r gwaith rydym wedi arloesi ynddo, ac mae Lloegr nawr yn gofyn am gyngor Llywodraeth Cymru. Maent yn arbennig o awyddus i ddysgu am ddatblygiadau mewn ardaloedd clwstwr sylfaenol. Dechreuais drwy gydnabod ein bod yn ymwybodol iawn o'r heriau yn y maes hwn, ac rwyf am orffen drwy ei gwneud yn glir y byddwn yn parhau i weithio gydag awdurdodau lleol a phartneriaid eraill, gyda'r nod o hyrwyddo gwasanaethau sefydlu cynhwysfawr i gefnogi plant yng Nghymru. Diolch yn fawr.

James Evans to reply to the debate.

James Evans i ymateb i'r ddadl.

Diolch, Llywydd, and it's been a really important debate today, and I think it's really important that we've heard contributions from right across the Chamber, from Members in Plaid Cymru and from Members in my own group, of how we can raise this really, really important topic here. And it's vitally important for some of the most vulnerable people in our society. We opened the debate with Altaf Hussain, who talked about article 26 and reminded us of our obligations to the most vulnerable people in our society. Sometimes, we forget what we owe to the most vulnerable people in society, and it's important that we all recognise the duties that we have. And that's why it's very important, as Altaf said, that we offer that habilitation training across Wales, as we need to make sure that everybody has opportunities to develop and ensure that they have the opportunities to live an independent life. And that was raised by a lot of people here, and it's not just for this, but for disabled people right across Wales, that we do as much as we can to improve their lives. As Altaf Hussain said, there are many parts of Wales where this training isn't even provided, and that's a failing that we have here for those vulnerable children across Wales. And Altaf also talked about the workforce plans and not having those in place, and I think it's very important that we have those, so we can identify the service needs and where we need to put people in place to make sure we can roll out this training right across Wales. Sioned Williams, I was very grateful that Plaid Cymru will be supporting our motion this evening, and it's very good that we can work in this cross-party way across the Senedd, so we can raise these important issues and actually highlight them and work together for the interests of children right across Wales. I think you mentioned the third of children who are suffering due to local authority budgets, and I think it's really right to highlight that, because we do not want to see children in Wales, who have visual impairments, suffering; it's just simply not right in a twenty-first century society. And you also mentioned the UK Conservative Government and things that they could do, and I'll just put on record that we on these benches did ask for the UK Government to raise benefits in line with inflation. That's something that we did on our benches, and we will hold our own Government to account where we think they are failing. That is why we are the Welsh Conservative Party, not the Conservative Party in England, and we'll do as much as we can to hold our Government to account where we think they're not doing things correctly. Joel James talked very passionately about giving people the power to listen to their needs, and I think that's very, very important that we do listen to service users when we do design these systems as well, to make sure that they're included in what we do. Because if we don't include young people in what we want to do, then I don't think we'll ever have a system that works for them. That's something we do too often is design a system without listening to the people who use it, and then I don't think it's ever fit for purpose. Joel, you also talked about the economic elements of why habilitation training is very, very important. For every £1 spent, that £5.72 back to the economy in how they actually contribute to society, I think we don't think about that enough when we look at health outcomes right across Wales. This is a very important issue here, but right across Wales. If we just invested a bit more money upfront in services like this to help disabled people, we could actually really improve the economic outcomes across Wales and really enable those people to live the full lives that they should by right be entitled to live. Gareth Davies, you talked about Labradors. It's not a dog breed that I particularly like; I'm a big fan of spaniels, but I recognise the important work that those dogs do, actually, to really help those people with visual impairments. And I just want to put on the record the thanks to the people who actually rear guide dog puppies and bring them through the system and take them into training. I think those people do get forgotten about sometimes. I think it's important to recognise all those people who do that, which actually helps the service as a whole. I know my colleague Mark Isherwood hosted an event in the Senedd not so long ago about this. I think it was important to get, yet again, that cross-party consensus over this.

Diolch, Lywydd, ac mae wedi bod yn ddadl bwysig iawn heddiw, ac rwy'n credu ei bod yn hynod bwysig ein bod wedi clywed cyfraniadau gan bobl ar draws y Siambr, gan Aelodau ym Mhlaid Cymru a chan Aelodau yn fy ngrŵp fy hun, ynglŷn â sut y gallwn godi'r pwnc hynod bwysig hwn yma. Ac mae'n hanfodol bwysig i rai o'r bobl fwyaf bregus yn ein cymdeithas. Agorwyd y ddadl gan Altaf Hussain, a siaradodd am erthygl 26 ac a'n hatgoffodd o'n rhwymedigaethau i'r bobl fwyaf bregus yn ein cymdeithas. Weithiau, rydym yn anghofio'r hyn sydd arnom i'r bobl fwyaf bregus yn y gymdeithas, ac mae'n bwysig ein bod i gyd yn cydnabod y dyletswyddau sydd gennym. A dyna pam ei bod hi'n bwysig iawn, fel dywedodd Altaf, ein bod yn cynnig hyfforddiant sefydlu ledled Cymru, gan fod angen inni wneud yn siŵr fod pawb yn cael cyfle i ddatblygu a sicrhau bod ganddynt gyfleoedd i fyw bywyd annibynnol. Ac fe godwyd hynny gan lawer o bobl yma, ac nid ar gyfer hyn yn unig, ond i bobl anabl ym mhob cwr o Gymru, y dylem wneud cymaint ag y gallwn i wella eu bywydau. Fel y dywedodd Altaf Hussain, mae yna sawl rhan o Gymru lle nad yw'r hyfforddiant hwn yn cael ei ddarparu hyd yn oed, ac mae hynny'n fethiant ar ein rhan i'r plant bregus hynny ledled Cymru. Ac fe siaradodd Altaf hefyd am gynlluniau'r gweithlu ac nad yw'r rheini eu lle, ac rwy'n credu ei bod yn bwysig iawn fod gennym y rheini, fel y gallwn nodi anghenion y gwasanaeth a lle mae angen inni roi pobl ar waith i wneud yn siŵr y gallwn gyflwyno'r hyfforddiant hwn ledled Cymru. Sioned Williams, roeddwn yn ddiolchgar iawn y bydd Plaid Cymru yn cefnogi ein cynnig heno, ac mae'n dda iawn y gallwn weithio yn y ffordd drawsbleidiol hon ar draws y Senedd, fel y gallwn godi'r materion pwysig hyn a thynnu sylw atynt a chydweithio er budd plant ledled Cymru. Rwy'n credu eich bod wedi sôn am y traean o blant sy'n dioddef oherwydd cyllidebau awdurdodau lleol, ac rwy'n credu ei bod yn gwbl briodol inni dynnu sylw at hynny, oherwydd nid ydym eisiau gweld plant yng Nghymru sydd â nam ar eu golwg yn dioddef; nid yw'n iawn yng nghymdeithas yr unfed ganrif ar hugain. Ac fe wnaethoch chi sôn hefyd am Lywodraeth Geidwadol y DU a phethau y gallent hwy eu gwneud, ac rwyf am gofnodi ein bod ni ar y meinciau hyn wedi gofyn i Lywodraeth y DU godi budd-daliadau yn unol â chwyddiant. Mae hynny'n rhywbeth a wnaethom ar ein meinciau, a byddwn yn dwyn ein Llywodraeth ein hunain i gyfrif lle credwn eu bod yn methu. Dyna pam mai'r Blaid Geidwadol Gymreig ydym ni, nid Plaid Geidwadol Lloegr, ac fe wnawn gymaint ag y gallwn i ddwyn ein Llywodraeth i gyfrif lle credwn nad ydynt yn gwneud pethau'n iawn. Siaradodd Joel James yn angerddol iawn am roi pŵer i bobl wrando ar eu hanghenion, ac rwy'n credu bod hynny'n bwysig iawn, ein bod yn gwrando ar ddefnyddwyr gwasanaethau pan fyddwn yn cynllunio'r systemau hyn hefyd, i wneud yn siŵr eu bod yn cael eu cynnwys yn yr hyn a wnawn. Oherwydd os nad ydym yn cynnwys pobl ifanc yn yr hyn a wnawn, nid wyf yn meddwl y cawn ni byth system sy'n gweithio iddynt. Rydym yn rhy aml yn cynllunio system heb wrando ar y bobl sy'n ei defnyddio, ac nid wyf yn meddwl ei fod byth yn addas i'w bwrpas. Joel, roeddech chi hefyd yn sôn am elfennau economaidd pam mae hyfforddiant sefydlu'n bwysig iawn. Am bob £1 a werir, daw £5.72 yn ôl i'r economi yn y ffordd y maent yn cyfrannu at gymdeithas mewn gwirionedd, ac rwy'n credu nad ydym yn meddwl am hynny ddigon wrth edrych ar ganlyniadau iechyd ledled Cymru. Mae hwn yn fater pwysig iawn yma, ond ledled Cymru yn ogystal. Pe baem yn buddsoddi ychydig mwy o arian ymlaen llaw mewn gwasanaethau fel hyn i helpu pobl anabl, gallem wella'r canlyniadau economaidd ledled Cymru a galluogi'r bobl hynny i fyw'r bywydau llawn y dylent fod â hawl i'w byw. Gareth Davies, fe sonioch chi am Labradoriaid. Nid yw'n frîd ci rwy'n arbennig o hoff ohono; rwy'n hoff iawn o darfgwn, ond rwy'n cydnabod y gwaith pwysig mae'r cŵn hynny'n ei wneud i helpu pobl â nam ar eu golwg. Ac rwyf am gofnodi fy niolch i'r bobl sy'n magu cŵn tywys ac yn dod â hwy drwy'r system ac yn eu hyfforddi. Rwy'n meddwl bod y bobl hynny'n cael eu hanghofio weithiau. Rwy'n credu ei bod yn bwysig cydnabod yr holl bobl sy'n gwneud hynny, sy'n helpu'r gwasanaeth yn ei gyfanrwydd. Rwy'n gwybod bod fy nghyd-Aelod Mark Isherwood wedi cynnal digwyddiad yn y Senedd heb fod mor bell yn ôl ar hyn. Unwaith eto, rwy'n credu ei bod yn bwysig cael y consensws trawsbleidiol hwnnw dros hyn.

Yes, I will take an intervention quite happily.

Gwnaf, rwy'n hapus iawn i dderbyn ymyriad.

You mentioned the role of guide dogs there, and my mind actually took me back to the event that you mentioned that Mark Isherwood hosted in the Senedd a few weeks ago. It struck me that you can't really put a price on independence. Independence is one of those words that we bandy around sometimes in these debates and we forget what that really means, that independence to be able to follow our dreams, our pursuits and the things that we want to do. So, the work that goes on in terms of training those guide dogs is really important, I'm sure you'll agree.

Fe wnaethoch sôn am rôl cŵn tywys yno, ac mewn gwirionedd, aeth fy meddwl â mi'n ôl i'r digwyddiad y sonioch chi amdano a gynhaliwyd gan Mark Isherwood yn y Senedd ychydig wythnosau yn ôl. Cefais fy nharo gan y ffaith na allwch roi pris ar annibyniaeth. Mae annibyniaeth yn un o'r geiriau rydym yn ei daflu o gwmpas weithiau yn y dadleuon hyn ac rydym yn anghofio beth mae'n ei olygu mewn gwirionedd, yr annibyniaeth i allu mynd ar drywydd ein breuddwydion, ein diddordebau a'r pethau rydym am eu gwneud. Felly, mae'r gwaith sy'n digwydd ar hyfforddi'r cŵn tywys hyn yn bwysig iawn, rwy'n siŵr y byddwch chi'n cytuno.

That's very true. Actually, one person at that event that my colleague Sam Kurtz talked to - I'm sure other Members did - had a visual impairment. I took the time to talk to that person myself, and they actually said that they'd had habilitation training, and they found it very useful, but the dog that was with them was also that lifeline to them. So, you're totally right. Natasha Asghar picked up this point as well, that you cannot put a price on somebody's independence. Most of us probably in this Chamber take for granted our independence, and I think sometimes we don't recognise that there are some people who really are suffering at home who live very isolated lives because they do not have access to the services that they need to help them to live that independent life. I do not think, as Natasha Asghar said, that we can put a price on the independence of that person, because I think a lot of people take it for granted. It's very important that issues like that are raised in this Chamber so we all understand and recognise those people. Then we moved on to the Minister. I agreed with some of the things that the Minister said. You'll be very surprised, Minister, to hear that, I'm sure. But I'm disappointed that the Government has amended this motion. I don't think our motion was overly political. We actually put the motion down - and Guide Dogs Cymru helped us informally with this motion - because this is what organisations are telling us that they want to see. I think it's very, very important that, when organisations come forward, we are the democratically elected Parliament here and we represent those organisations in this Chamber to get those issues raised. When the Government amended it and basically passed the buck on to local authorities, who I think have failed sometimes in their duties here - as Altaf said before, there are vast swathes of Wales where there is no service at all - I think it's incumbent on the Government to step up here to make sure that we have that service right across Wales and the workforce in place right across Wales so that people who are visually impaired and those young children who need that habilitation training are not left at home and they're not forgotten, because it is very important to their future development, their education and their future life that they have the opportunity to live that full life, as we all live in this Chamber. I hope we can all agree that it simply is not good enough that 2,000 children in Wales who are visually impaired are in need of support. The support they're getting is dire, and I think it's about time that we did our jobs in this Senedd and make sure that we represent the views of those disabled people across Wales, and especially those vulnerable children who are in desperate need of this vital support. Diolch, Llywydd.

Mae hynny'n wir iawn. Mewn gwirionedd, roedd gan un unigolyn yn y digwyddiad hwnnw y siaradodd fy nghyd-Aelod Sam Kurtz ag ef - rwy'n siŵr fod Aelodau eraill wedi gwneud - nam ar eu golwg. Rhoddais amser i siarad â hwy fy hun, ac fe ddywedodd mewn gwirionedd eu bod wedi cael hyfforddiant sefydlu, ac yn ei ystyried yn ddefnyddiol iawn, ond roedd y ci a oedd gyda hwy'n achubiaeth iddynt hefyd. Felly, rydych chi'n hollol iawn. Cododd Natasha Asghar y pwynt hwn hefyd, na allwch roi pris ar annibyniaeth rhywun. Mae'n debyg fod y rhan fwyaf ohonom ni yn y Siambr hon yn cymryd yn ein hannibyniaeth yn ganiataol, ac rwy'n meddwl weithiau nad ydym yn sylweddoli bod yna rai pobl sy'n dioddef gartref ac sy'n byw bywydau ynysig iawn oherwydd nad oes ganddynt fynediad at y gwasanaethau sydd eu hangen arnynt i'w helpu i fyw'r bywyd annibynnol hwnnw. Fel y dywedodd Natasha Asghar, nid wyf yn credu y gallwn roi pris ar annibyniaeth yr unigolyn hwnnw, oherwydd rwy'n credu bod llawer o bobl yn ei gymryd yn ganiataol. Mae'n bwysig iawn fod materion fel hynny'n cael eu codi yn y Siambr er mwyn i bawb ohonom ddeall a chydnabod y bobl hynny. Yna fe wnaethom symud ymlaen at y Gweinidog. Roeddwn yn cytuno â rhai o'r pethau a ddywedodd y Gweinidog. Fe gewch eich synnu'n fawr o glywed hynny, rwy'n siŵr, Weinidog. Ond rwy'n siomedig fod y Llywodraeth wedi cyflwyno gwelliant i'r cynnig hwn. Nid wyf yn credu bod ein cynnig yn or-wleidyddol. Fe wnaethom gyflwyno'r cynnig - ac fe wnaeth Cŵn Tywys Cymru ein helpu ni'n anffurfiol gyda'r cynnig hwn - oherwydd mai dyma mae sefydliadau'n dweud wrthym eu bod am ei weld. Rwy'n credu ei bod hi'n bwysig iawn, pan fydd sefydliadau'n dod atom, mai ni yw'r Senedd a etholwyd yn ddemocrataidd yma ac rydym yn cynrychioli'r sefydliadau hynny yn y Siambr hon i gael y materion hynny wedi'u codi. Pan wnaeth y Llywodraeth ei ddiwygio a rhoi'r baich ar awdurdodau lleol yn y bôn, sydd, yn fy marn i, wedi methu weithiau yn eu dyletswyddau yma - fel y dywedodd Altaf o'r blaen, ceir rhannau enfawr o Gymru lle nad oes gwasanaeth o gwbl - rwy'n credu ei bod yn ddyletswydd ar y Llywodraeth i gamu ymlaen i wneud yn siŵr fod gennym y gwasanaeth hwnnw'n iawn ledled Cymru a'r gweithlu ar waith ledled Cymru fel nad yw pobl sydd â nam ar eu golwg a'r plant ifanc sydd angen hyfforddiant sefydlu yn cael eu gadael gartref ac nad ydynt yn cael eu hanghofio, oherwydd mae'n bwysig iawn i'w datblygiad yn y dyfodol, eu haddysg a'u bywyd yn y dyfodol eu bod yn cael cyfle i fyw'r bywyd llawn hwnnw y mae pawb ohonom yma yn y Siambr yn ei fyw. Rwy'n gobeithio y gall pob un ohonom gytuno nad yw'n ddigon da fod angen cymorth ar 2,000 o blant yng Nghymru sydd â nam ar eu golwg. Mae'r cymorth y maent yn ei gael yn wael, ac rwy'n credu ei bod yn hen bryd inni wneud ein gwaith yn y Senedd hon a sicrhau ein bod yn cynrychioli barn pobl anabl ledled Cymru, ac yn enwedig y plant agored i niwed sydd ag angen dybryd am y cymorth hanfodol hwn. Diolch, Lywydd.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [ Objection.] There is objection. We will therefore defer voting until voting time.

Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn y cynnig heb ei ddiwygio? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? [ Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, mae yna wrthwynebiad, felly fe wnawn ni ohirio'r bleidlais tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, we will move to voting time. There are more than three Members who wish for the bell to be rung, so we will adjourn and ring the bell.

Oni bai fod tri Aelod yn dymuno i fi ganu'r gloch, mi symudaf i'r cyfnod pleidleisio. Mae mwy na thri Aelod yn dymuno i fi wneud, felly gwnawn ni gymryd seibiant i ganu'r gloch.

That brings us to voting time. We have votes on items 5 and 7. Item 5 is first, a vote on a Member debate under Standing Order 11.21 (iv) on the education maintenance allowance. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in name of Luke Fletcher. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 37, no abstentions, 13 against, and therefore the motion is agreed.

Dyma ni'n cyrraedd y cyfnod pleidleisio. Mae gyda ni bleidleisiau ar eitem 5 ac eitem 7. Eitem 5 sydd gyntaf. Mae'r bleidlais yma ar y ddadl Aelodau o dan Reol Sefydlog 11.21 (iv) ar y lwfans cynhaliaeth addysg. Dwi'n galw am bleidlais ar y cynnig a gyflwynwyd yn enw Luke Fletcher. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 37, neb yn ymatal, 13 yn erbyn, ac felly mae'r cynnig yna wedi'i dderbyn.

The next vote is on item 7, the Welsh Conservatives debate on habilitation training for sight-impaired children, and I call for a vote on the motion without amendment tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. In favour 25, no abstentions, 25 against, and therefore, in accordance with Standing Order, I exercise my casting vote in the negative. Therefore, the motion is not agreed, with 25 votes in favour and 26 against.

Mae'r bleidlais nesaf ar eitem 7, sef dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig ar hyfforddiant sefydlu ar gyfer plant â nam ar eu golwg, a dwi'n galw am bleidlais ar y cynnig heb ei ddiwygio a gyflwynwyd yn enw Darren Millar. Agor y bleidlais. O blaid y cynnig 25, neb yn ymatal, 25 yn erbyn, ac felly, yn unol â'r Rheolau Sefydlog, rwy'n arfer fy mhleidlais fwrw drwy bleidleisio yn erbyn y cynnig. Felly mae'r cynnig heb ei dderbyn, gyda 25 o bleidleisiau o blaid a 26 yn erbyn.

The next vote will be on amendment 1 tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. That vote is also tied, and therefore, in accordance with Standing Orders, I exercise my vote against amendment 1, which means that amendment 1 is not agreed. the motion is not amended and is not agreed, so there is no further voting on that item.

Y bleidlais nesaf fydd ar welliant 1 a gyflwynwyd yn enw Lesley Griffiths. Agor y bleidlais. Mae'r bleidlais yna hefyd yn gyfartal, ac felly, yn unol â Rheolau Sefydlog, dwi'n bwrw fy mhleidlais yn erbyn gwelliant 1, sy'n golygu bod gwelliant 1 wedi ei wrthod. Dyw'r cynnig heb ei ddiwygio a heb ei dderbyn, ac felly does yna ddim canlyniad i'r bleidlais yna.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. It's always interesting when you've got the short debate on the Wednesday before half term or the end of term. Alun Davies has been given a minute in this debate. The structure of public services in Wales: have we got it right? The answer is 'yes' in some cases and 'no' in others. Where we have got it wrong, is it bad enough to need a restructuring? The Welsh public service consists of hundreds of organisations. There are small and localised ones, whilst others are large and some cover all of Wales. The view held by many, if not most, Senedd Members, and at least in part by the Welsh Government, is that larger organisations are better, and no failings of the large organisations in Wales have convinced them otherwise. In fact, whilst the failings of Betsi Cadwaladr health board are well documented, I have been told by a former Plaid Cymru health spokesperson that we should have one health board for Wales. A Conservative Member has told me there should be two, with one for the north and one for the south. The arguments are superficially attractive. You reduce the number of chief executives, the executive team and board members, releasing savings. Over many years there have been service reorganisations that have created larger and larger organisations throughout Wales. We've gone from lots to, in some cases, one, in some cases seven. But a lot have gone just down to one. The Welsh ambulance service was established in 1998 by the amalgamation of four existing ambulance trusts and the ambulance service provided by Pembrokeshire and Derwen NHS Trust. Public Health Wales was created at the same time as the local health boards by the merger of the national public health service, Wales Centre for Health, Welsh Cancer Intelligence and Surveillance Unit, Congenital Anomaly Register and Information Service for Wales, and Screening Services Wales. Digital Health and Care Wales provides systems and services that are used in patients' homes, in GP practices, in hospitals, and in the community. Seven local health boards that now plan, secure and deliver health services in their areas replaced the 22 health boards and NHS trusts that performed these functions previously. The population sizes vary - Powys at just over 130,000 to Betsi Cadwaladr at just under 700,000 - but in many respects, the population matters less than geographical distance. The National Procurement Service was created by the Welsh Government in March 2013. Its remit is to secure in the region of £1 billion worth of goods and services in common and repetitive spend. Natural Resources Wales was formed by the merger of the Countryside Council for Wales, Environment Agency Wales and the Forestry Commission in Wales. Since its creation, there have been a number of loans from invest-to-save to fund redundancies, and a highly critical auditor general report regarding the sale of trees. Two trunk road agencies have replaced the former eight county council-run agencies. The Welsh Government reviewed the way in which trunk roads and motorways were being managed, and decided to reduce the number from eight down to three and then down to two. Three national parks: following the Environment Act 1995, each national park has been managed by its own national park authority since 1997. But, there have been those people who have been putting forth an argument that we really only want one national park body in Wales. This idea is that one is better than any other number, despite everything you see. Fairly recently we had the call to merge them. We've got three fire and rescue services, which were formed as a consequence of local government reorganisation, replacing the eight former county council fire and rescue services. Then we have four regional education consortiums. Twenty-two county or county borough councils were created in 1995 by the merger of county and district councils. For several years, there have been calls from some politicians for local government mergers, including one who is in the room today. Over 700 town and community councils. The careers service has been taken out of local control and is now run centrally.

Diolch. Mae hi bob amser yn ddiddorol pan fydd gennych chi'r ddadl fer ar y dydd Mercher cyn hanner tymor neu ar ddiwedd y tymor. Mae Alun Davies wedi cael munud yn y ddadl hon. Strwythur gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru: a ydym wedi'i gael yn iawn? Yr ateb yw 'ydym' mewn rhai achosion a 'nac ydym' mewn achosion eraill. Lle rydym wedi'i gael yn anghywir, a yw'n ddigon gwael i fod angen ailstrwythuro? Mae'r gwasanaeth cyhoeddus yng Nghymru yn cynnwys cannoedd o sefydliadau. Ceir rhai bach, lleol, tra bod eraill yn fawr a rhai'n darparu ar gyfer Cymru gyfan. Y farn sydd gan nifer, os nad y rhan fwyaf, o Aelodau'r Senedd, ac o leiaf yn rhannol gan Lywodraeth Cymru, yw bod sefydliadau mwy o faint yn well, ac nid oes unrhyw fethiannau ar ran y sefydliadau mawr yng Nghymru wedi eu hargyhoeddi fel arall. Mewn gwirionedd, er bod methiannau bwrdd iechyd Betsi Cadwaladr wedi'u dogfennu'n dda, mae cyn-lefarydd iechyd Plaid Cymru wedi dweud wrthyf y dylem gael un bwrdd iechyd i Gymru. Mae Aelod Ceidwadol wedi dweud wrthyf y dylid cael dau, gydag un ar gyfer y gogledd ac un ar gyfer y de. Mae'r dadleuon yn ddeniadol ar yr wyneb. Rydych yn lleihau nifer y prif weithredwyr, tîm y weithrediaeth ac aelodau'r bwrdd, gan ryddhau arbedion. Dros nifer o flynyddoedd gwelwyd gwasanaethau'n cael eu had-drefnu gan greu sefydliadau mwy a mwy o faint ledled Cymru. Rydym wedi mynd o lawer i un, mewn rhai achosion, a saith mewn rhai achosion. Ond mae nifer wedi mynd i lawr i ddim ond un. Sefydlwyd gwasanaeth ambiwlans Cymru yn 1998 drwy uno'r pedair ymddiriedolaeth ambiwlans ar y pryd a'r gwasanaeth ambiwlans a gâi ei ddarparu gan Ymddiriedolaeth GIG Sir Benfro a Derwen. Cafodd Iechyd Cyhoeddus Cymru ei greu yr un pryd â'r byrddau iechyd lleol drwy uno'r gwasanaeth iechyd cyhoeddus cenedlaethol, Canolfan Iechyd Cymru, Uned Gwybodaeth ac Arolygaeth Canser Cymru, Gwasanaeth Cofrestr a Gwybodaeth Anomaleddau Cynhenid Cymru, a Gwasanaethau Sgrinio Cymru. Mae Iechyd a Gofal Digidol Cymru yn darparu systemau a gwasanaethau a ddefnyddir yng nghartrefi cleifion, mewn meddygfeydd, mewn ysbytai, ac yn y gymuned. Mae saith bwrdd iechyd lleol bellach yn cynllunio, yn diogelu ac yn darparu gwasanaethau iechyd yn eu hardaloedd yn lle'r 22 bwrdd iechyd ac ymddiriedolaethau GIG a gyflawnai'r swyddogaethau hyn o'r blaen. Mae maint y boblogaeth yn amrywio - Powys ar ychydig dros 130,000 i Betsi Cadwaladr ar ychydig dan 700,000 - ond mewn sawl ffordd, mae'r boblogaeth yn llai pwysig na phellter daearyddol. Cafodd y Gwasanaeth Caffael Cenedlaethol ei greu gan Lywodraeth Cymru ym mis Mawrth 2013. Ei gylch gwaith yw sicrhau gwerth £1 biliwn o nwyddau a gwasanaethau mewn gwariant cyffredin a rheolaidd. Ffurfiwyd Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru drwy uno Cyngor Cefn Gwlad Cymru, Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd Cymru a Chomisiwn Coedwigaeth Cymru. Ers ei greu, cafwyd nifer o fenthyciadau buddsoddi-i-arbed i ariannu diswyddiadau, a cheir adroddiad cyffredinol archwilydd sy'n hynod feirniadol ar werthu coed. Ceir dwy asiantaeth gefnffyrdd yn lle'r wyth asiantaeth flaenorol a gâi eu rhedeg gan gynghorau sir. Adolygodd Llywodraeth Cymru y ffordd y câi cefnffyrdd a thraffyrdd eu rheoli, a phenderfynodd leihau'r nifer o wyth i dri ac yna i lawr i ddau. Tri pharc cenedlaethol: yn dilyn Deddf yr Amgylchedd 1995, mae pob parc cenedlaethol wedi cael ei reoli gan ei awdurdod parc cenedlaethol ei hun ers 1997. Ond mae rhai pobl yn dadlau mai un corff parciau cenedlaethol rydym ei eisiau yng Nghymru. Y syniad yw bod un yn well nag unrhyw rif arall, er gwaethaf popeth a welwch. Yn weddol ddiweddar cawsom yr alwad i'w huno. Mae gennym dri gwasanaeth tân ac achub, a ffurfiwyd yn sgil ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol, yn lle'r wyth gwasanaeth tân ac achub blaenorol a oedd gan y cynghorau sir. Yna mae gennym bedwar consortiwm addysg rhanbarthol. Crëwyd 22 o gynghorau sir neu fwrdeistrefi sirol ym 1995 drwy uno cynghorau sir a dosbarth. Ers sawl blwyddyn, bu galwadau gan rai gwleidyddion am uno llywodraeth leol, gan gynnwys un sydd yn yr ystafell heddiw. Dros 700 o gynghorau tref a chymuned. Mae'r gwasanaeth gyrfaoedd wedi cael ei dynnu allan o reolaeth leol ac mae bellach yn cael ei redeg yn ganolog.

Are mergers always right? From the above, it can be seen that the direction of travel is to larger and fewer organisations. Those who look at it simply are calculating the savings. Mergers, however, are expensive; you've got redundancy costs, re-badging costs, and, more expensive of all, creating a single ICT system from the systems of the predecessor organisations. Anybody who went through local government reorganisation in 1995 will be able to tell you about the huge costs that took place, and most of the changes were by splitting rather than merging. It really is incredibly expensive. ICT systems - I could talk for hours on this. Some will be under contract; others will need to be updated or closed down and merged into new systems. Look at NRW, where invest-to-save has been used to rescue the organisation's ICT services on several occasions. All these are upfront costs, and whilst the cost of local government reorganisation in 1996 was approximately 5 per cent of the annual expenditure of each council, that was without the variation in terms and conditions between local authorities that exists today. It would be incredibly difficult to merge local authorities today because we've got the situation, haven't we, that we went through job evaluation. So, if you're a social worker in Neath Port Talbot or a social worker in Swansea, you don't get paid the same, though many of us would like it to be. They went through their own different job evaluations. Actually, it's better to be a social worker in Swansea and to work in a library in Neath Port Talbot, in terms of what job evaluation gave them. The simplistic conclusions of some is that, following a merger, all the senior post duplication is removed and then you have all the great savings. This ignores issues such as that senior managers carry out tasks and, if the number is reduced, the tasks have to be reassigned and the same number of decisions have to be made. Economic theory predicts that an organisation becomes less efficient if it becomes too large. Larger organisations often suffer poor communication because they find it difficult to maintain an effective flow of information between departments, divisions, or between head office and outlying parts. I was hoping somebody from Betsi Cadwaladr area would have come in to explain exactly how they know that's true. Co-ordination problems also affect large organisations with many departments and divisions, as they find it much harder to co-ordinate operations. 'X-inefficiency' is the loss of management efficiency that occurs when organisations become large and operate in uncompetitive markets. Such losses of efficiency include overpaying for resources, paying managers salaries higher than needed - I think that people have come across that on several occasions as well - and excessive waste of resources. This leads to three questions on public services as they are currently configured. Do the larger organisations such as Betsi Cadwaladr perform better than the smaller ones? Has the creation of all-Wales organisations such as the Welsh ambulance service and Digital Health and Care Wales produced an improved service? Has the reduction in the number of organisations carrying out a function such as the trunk road agency, Natural Resources Wales and the National Procurement Service improved the services being provided? What I will say is that we need the same regional footprint for all public services provided by the Welsh Government. To give an example of current inconsistencies, those of us who live in Swansea have a different regional footprint for almost every service. For health, it's Swansea Neath Port Talbot; for fire and rescue, we add Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion, Powys and Pembrokeshire; educational improvement, it's the same; but policing, which is currently non-devolved, includes all the former county of Glamorgan except for Caerphilly; and finally, the Welsh ambulance service covers the whole of Wales. The aim should be to have all services within the four footprints: the Cardiff city region, the Swansea bay city region, the mid Wales region and the north Wales region. This splitting of Wales into four regions was long overdue, and it really has given us an opportunity to get things right. Whilst services could, and in many cases will, be on a smaller footprint than the regions, no service should cut across the regional boundaries unless it is an all-Wales service, which should be very rare. This will allow regional working across services to be undertaken far more easily. There is nothing intrinsically good about the current structure of local government in Wales. Why were the councils of Rhondda, Cynon Valley and Taff Ely merged but Blaenau Gwent and Merthyr district councils turned into unitary authorities without any mergers? Change should only be considered where there is a strong chance of improving services and/or reducing cost over the medium term because of the initial cost of change. Having spent several years discussing local government reorganisation as if it were some sort of silver bullet to solve the lack of funding for councils, the threat of reorganisation receded, was brought back again and has now receded again, but I expect it will be brought back again. It was as if the economic theory that predicts that an organisation may become less efficient if it becomes too large or that there are diseconomies of scale is unknown. Different services need a different method of joint working, and some are best carried out jointly, but most work best at the current local authority level. Examples of services that would benefit from a joint-working model based upon the regional footprint are transport, economic development and regional planning. I've left the most difficult to last. I would welcome hearing the Minister explain how well Betsi Cadwaladr, NRW and the Welsh ambulance service are performing, because it seems to go counter to anything I've come across, having dealt with constituents who have had problems with them. Replacing chairs, boards and chief executives has not solved the problems at Betsi Cadwaladr. If you just keep thinking you can get a chair and a chief executive and everything will be all right - . I've lost count of the number of chairs and chief executives that Betsi Cadwaladr has had, and it has been run by the Welsh Government, and I don't think anybody is going to get up and say, 'Now they've got it right.' If you look at Betsi Cadwaladr in terms of support functions, primary care and secondary care, whilst the first two can work on the current footprint, secondary care needs to be split between east and west. On splitting the Welsh ambulance service so it is being run by the health boards, whilst I would normally say reorganisation is not the answer, in the case of the ambulance service, could reorganisation make anything worse? NRW makes no sense at all. Whilst the merger of the Countryside Council for Wales and the Environment Agency had some logic behind it, adding the Forestry Commission had none whatsoever. Finally, looking for a regional model of services, no service, unless a national service, should cross the regional boundary. Fire and rescue should become four not three, with Powys and Ceredigion splitting off mid and west Wales. A Wales of four regions has been created, and we need to use this footprint for public services. We should look to right-size organisations, rather than making them bigger and bigger. I'll end on this: does anybody think that the careers service has got better because there's only one careers service for Wales, or do you think it's got worse? I'm in the 'got worse' camp.

A yw uno bob amser yn iawn? O'r uchod, gellir gweld bod y cyfeiriad teithio tuag at lai o sefydliadau mwy o faint. Mae'r rhai sy'n edrych arno ond yn cyfrifo'r arbedion. Fodd bynnag, mae uno'n ddrud; mae gennych gostau diswyddo, costau ailfathodynnu, ac yn fwyaf drud byth, creu un system TGCh o systemau'r sefydliadau rhagflaenol. Bydd unrhyw un a aeth drwy ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol yn 1995 yn gallu dweud wrthych am y costau enfawr a gafwyd, ac roedd y rhan fwyaf o'r newidiadau drwy hollti yn hytrach nag uno. Mae'n eithriadol o ddrud. Systemau TGCh - gallwn siarad am oriau ar hyn. Bydd rhai o dan gytundeb; bydd angen diweddaru neu gau eraill a'u huno mewn systemau newydd. Edrychwch ar CNC, lle defnyddiwyd buddsoddi-i-arbed i achub gwasanaethau TGCh y sefydliad ar sawl achlysur. Mae'r rhain i gyd yn gostau cychwynnol, ac er bod cost ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol yn 1996 tua 5 y cant o wariant blynyddol pob cyngor, roedd hynny heb yr amrywiadau yn y telerau ac amodau rhwng awdurdodau lleol sy'n bodoli heddiw. Byddai'n hynod o anodd uno awdurdodau lleol heddiw oherwydd mae gennym sefyllfa, onid oes, lle rydym wedi mynd drwy werthuso swyddi. Felly, os ydych chi'n weithiwr cymdeithasol yng Nghastell-nedd Port Talbot neu'n weithiwr cymdeithasol yn Abertawe, ni chewch yr un tâl, er yr hoffai llawer ohonom pe bai yr un fath. Aethant drwy eu gwerthusiadau swyddi gwahanol eu hunain. Mewn gwirionedd, mae'n well bod yn weithiwr cymdeithasol yn Abertawe a gweithio mewn llyfrgell yng Nghastell-nedd Port Talbot, o ran yr hyn a gawsant drwy werthuso swyddi. Casgliadau gor-syml rhai pobl yw bod yr holl ddyblygu swyddi uwch yn cael ei ddileu yn sgil uno, ac yna mae gennych chi'r holl arbedion gwych. Mae hyn yn anwybyddu materion fel y ffaith bod uwch-reolwyr yn cyflawni tasgau ac os yw'r nifer yn cael ei leihau, mae'n rhaid ailbennu'r tasgau ac mae'n rhaid gwneud yr un nifer o benderfyniadau. Mae theori economaidd yn datgan bod sefydliad yn mynd yn llai effeithlon os yw'n mynd yn rhy fawr. Mae sefydliadau mwy o faint yn aml yn dioddef yn sgil cyfathrebu gwael am eu bod yn ei chael hi'n anodd cynnal llif effeithiol o wybodaeth rhwng adrannau, is-adrannau, neu rhwng y brif swyddfa a rhannau anghysbell. Roeddwn yn gobeithio y byddai rhywun o ardal Betsi Cadwaladr wedi dod i mewn i esbonio sut yn union y gwyddant fod hynny'n wir. Mae problemau cydlynu hefyd yn effeithio ar sefydliadau mawr sydd â llawer o adrannau ac is-adrannau, gan eu bod yn ei chael hi'n llawer anos cydlynu gweithrediadau. 'X-aneffeithlonrwydd' yw'r effeithlonrwydd rheoli sy'n cael ei golli pan fydd sefydliadau'n dod yn fawr ac yn gweithredu mewn marchnadoedd anghystadleuol. Mae colledion effeithlonrwydd o'r fath yn cynnwys gordalu am adnoddau, talu cyflogau uwch nag sydd angen i reolwyr - rwy'n credu bod pobl wedi canfod hynny ar sawl achlysur hefyd - a gormod o wastraffu adnoddau. Mae hyn yn arwain at dri chwestiwn ynghylch gwasanaethau cyhoeddus fel y maent wedi'u cyflunio ar hyn o bryd. A yw'r sefydliadau mwy fel Betsi Cadwaladr yn perfformio'n well na'r rhai llai? A yw creu sefydliadau ar gyfer Cymru gyfan fel gwasanaeth ambiwlans Cymru ac Iechyd a Gofal Digidol Cymru wedi cynhyrchu gwasanaeth gwell? A yw'r gostyngiad yn nifer y sefydliadau sy'n cyflawni swyddogaeth fel yr asiantaeth cefnffyrdd, Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru a'r Gwasanaeth Caffael Cenedlaethol wedi gwella'r gwasanaethau sy'n cael eu darparu? Yr hyn y byddwn yn ei ddweud yw bod angen yr un ôl troed rhanbarthol arnom ar gyfer yr holl wasanaethau cyhoeddus y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu darparu. I roi enghraifft o'r anghysonderau cyfredol, mae gan y rhai ohonom sy'n byw yn Abertawe ôl troed rhanbarthol gwahanol ar gyfer bron bob gwasanaeth. Ar gyfer iechyd, Abertawe Castell Nedd Port Talbot ydyw; ar gyfer tân ac achub, rydym yn ychwanegu sir Gaerfyrddin, Ceredigion, Powys a sir Benfro; gwella addysg, yr un peth; ond mae plismona, sydd heb ei ddatganoli ar hyn o bryd, yn cynnwys yr holl hen sir Forgannwg heblaw Caerffili; ac yn olaf, mae gwasanaeth ambiwlans Cymru yn darparu ar gyfer Cymru gyfan. Y nod ddylai fod cael yr holl wasanaethau o fewn y pedwar ôl troed: dinas-ranbarth Caerdydd, dinas-ranbarth bae Abertawe, rhanbarth canolbarth Cymru a rhanbarth gogledd Cymru. Roedd hi'n hen bryd hollti Cymru yn bedwar rhanbarth, ac mae wedi rhoi cyfle inni wneud pethau'n iawn. Er y gallai gwasanaethau fod ar ôl troed llai na'r rhanbarthau, ac mewn sawl achos, fe fyddant, ni ddylai unrhyw wasanaeth dorri ar draws y ffiniau rhanbarthol oni bai ei fod yn wasanaeth Cymru-gyfan, rhywbeth a ddylai fod yn brin iawn. Bydd hyn yn caniatáu i waith rhanbarthol ar draws gwasanaethau gael ei wneud yn llawer haws. Nid oes dim sy'n gynhenid dda am strwythur presennol llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru. Pam y cafodd cynghorau Rhondda, Cwm Cynon a Thaf Elái eu huno ond bod cynghorau dosbarth Blaenau Gwent a Merthyr Tudful wedi troi'n awdurdodau unedol heb unrhyw uno? Ni ddylid ystyried newid oni bai lle ceir gobaith cryf o wella gwasanaethau a/neu leihau cost dros y tymor canolig oherwydd y gost gychwynnol sy'n deillio o newid. Ar ôl treulio sawl blwyddyn yn trafod ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol fel pe bai'n rhyw fath o ateb hollgynhwysol i ddatrys y diffyg cyllid i gynghorau, ciliodd y bygythiad o ad-drefnu, cyn ei adfer eto ac mae bellach wedi cilio eto, ond rwy'n disgwyl y caiff ei adfer eto. Roedd fel pe bai neb wedi clywed am y ddamcaniaeth economaidd sy'n datgan y gallai sefydliad ddod yn llai effeithlon os daw'n rhy fawr neu fod yna wrth-ddarbodion maint. Mae angen dull gwahanol o weithio ar y cyd ar wasanaethau gwahanol, a chaiff rhai eu gwneud yn well ar y cyd, ond mae'r rhan fwyaf yn gweithio orau ar lefel bresennol yr awdurdod lleol. Enghreifftiau o wasanaethau a fyddai'n elwa o fodel cydweithio yn seiliedig ar yr ôl troed rhanbarthol yw trafnidiaeth, datblygu economaidd a chynllunio rhanbarthol. Gadewais y peth anoddaf at y diwedd. Byddwn yn croesawu clywed y Gweinidog yn esbonio pa mor dda y mae Betsi Cadwaladr, CNC a gwasanaeth ambiwlans Cymru yn perfformio, oherwydd mae'n ymddangos ei fod yn mynd yn groes i unrhyw beth y deuthum ar ei draws, ar ôl ymwneud ag etholwyr sydd wedi cael problemau gyda hwy. Nid yw cael cadeiryddion, byrddau a phrif weithredwyr newydd wedi datrys y problemau yn Betsi Cadwaladr. Os ydych chi'n parhau i feddwl y gallwch gael cadeirydd a phrif weithredwr ac y bydd popeth yn iawn - . Ni allaf gyfrif faint o gadeiryddion a phrif weithredwyr a fu gan Betsi Cadwaladr, ac mae wedi cael ei redeg gan Lywodraeth Cymru, ac nid wyf yn meddwl bod unrhyw un yn mynd i godi a dweud, 'Maent wedi'i gael yn iawn nawr.' Os edrychwch ar Betsi Cadwaladr o ran swyddogaethau cymorth, gofal sylfaenol a gofal eilaidd, er y gall y ddau gyntaf weithio ar yr ôl troed presennol, rhaid rhannu gofal eilaidd rhwng y dwyrain a'r gorllewin. O ran hollti gwasanaeth ambiwlans Cymru fel ei fod yn cael ei redeg gan y byrddau iechyd, er y byddwn fel arfer yn dweud nad ad-drefnu yw'r ateb, yn achos y gwasanaeth ambiwlans, a allai ad-drefnu wneud unrhyw beth yn waeth? Nid yw CNC yn gwneud unrhyw synnwyr o gwbl. Er bod uno Cyngor Cefn Gwlad Cymru ac Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd yn seiliedig ar ryw fath o resymeg, nid oedd unrhyw resymeg o gwbl i ychwanegu'r Comisiwn Coedwigaeth. Yn olaf, wrth chwilio am fodel gwasanaethau rhabarthol, ni ddylai unrhyw wasanaeth, oni bai ei fod yn wasanaeth cenedlaethol, groesi'r ffin ranbarthol. Dylai tân ac achub ddod yn bedwar nid tri, gyda Phowys a Cheredigion yn hollti oddi wrth ganolbarth a gorllewin Cymru. Crëwyd Cymru bedwar rhanbarth, ac mae angen inni ddefnyddio'r ôl troed hwn ar gyfer gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Dylem edrych ar gael maint sefydliadau'n iawn, yn hytrach na'u gwneud yn fwy ac yn fwy. Rwyf am orffen gyda hyn: a oes unrhyw un yn meddwl bod y gwasanaeth gyrfaoedd wedi gwella am mai dim ond un gwasanaeth gyrfaoedd a geir ar gyfer Cymru, neu a ydych chi'n meddwl ei fod wedi gwaethygu? Rwyf fi o'r farn ei fod wedi gwaethygu.

I'm always grateful to Mike for his contributions to this. The worst mistake - I made many mistakes, but the worst mistake - I made as a Minister was to challenge Mike on local government financing and the intricacies of the council tax. The pain I suffered then, nearly a decade ago, stays with me every day of my life, and if I can't sleep at 3 o'clock in the morning, Mike comes back into my dreams - or my nightmares - and reminds me of my failures. And I'm grateful to you for that, Mike. But, let me say this: perhaps the difference in approach that you and I take is that you think Wales is a big country with big organisations; I think Wales is a small country, and I think Wales has issues of small country governance. And that's entirely different, and I take a different view on those matters. One of the failures, if you like, of governance in Wales over the last 20 years is that we've never created a coherence in governance in Wales, and one of the reasons we've never done that is that all of us know that we've created too many organisations, too many structures, too many processes, too many committees, too many commissions but none of us are prepared to ask the difficult questions and to face up to that. As a Minister, I asked a very senior Member of Plaid Cymru would they support the reorganisation of local government. Without taking a breath, that person said, 'Yes, absolutely, unequivocally, but you need to carve out Anglesey and you need to carve out Ceredigion.' I asked the same question of a very senior Member of the Conservative Party, 'Would you support the reorganisation of local government?' 'Yes, unequivocally, no issue at all, but you'd have to carve out Monmouthshire.' They didn't mention Aberconwy. And the Labour Government at the time, with one exception, was wholly in favour of the reorganisation of local government, and I often reflect on that. However, what I believe we need to do, and this is where I think there's a connection and I'm trying to reach out to find this connection with Mike, is that we need to create coherence in the governance of Wales, because we spend all of our time arguing about what comes up and down the M4, but we don't create coherence within the country. And for somebody like me, who wants to distribute greater powers outside of this Chamber, and outside of Cardiff, that means having the structures that can actually use and have the capacity to make the best use of those additional powers. So, if we're serious about empowering communities up and down Wales, we have to have the structures and the means for funding those - structures that actually work for the people who live in those communities. And I don't believe we've done that. And I believe that all of us, wherever we sit in the Chamber - . I notice Jane Dodds is here, so I won't mention the embarrassment of my arguments with the Liberal Democrats on local government reorganisation where there was absolute agreement, but a wish to do it on a ward-by-ward basis. So, we would have 800 different conversations about wards that would sit in different authorities. We need to be serious about how we do that, and that means that, together, we need a coherent and an intelligent and a far-sighted and a less selfish debate.

Rwyf fi bob amser yn ddiolchgar i Mike am ei gyfraniadau ar hyn. Y camgymeriad gwaethaf - fe wneuthum lawer o gamgymeriadau, ond y camgymeriad gwaethaf - a wneuthum fel Gweinidog oedd herio Mike ar ariannu llywodraeth leol a chymhlethdodau'r dreth gyngor. Mae'r boen a ddioddefais bryd hynny, bron i ddegawd yn ôl, yn aros gyda mi bob dydd o fy oes, ac os na allaf gysgu am 3 o'r gloch y bore, daw Mike yn ôl i fy mreuddwydion - neu fy hunllefau - a fy atgoffa am fy methiannau. Ac rwy'n ddiolchgar i chi am hynny, Mike. Ond gadewch imi ddweud hyn: efallai mai'r gwahaniaeth rhwng eich ffordd chi o feddwl a fy un i yw eich bod chi'n meddwl bod Cymru'n wlad fawr gyda sefydliadau mawr; rwy'n meddwl bod Cymru'n wlad fach, ac rwy'n credu bod gan Gymru broblemau sy'n tarddu o'r ffordd y caiff gwledydd bach eu llywodraethu. Ac mae hynny'n hollol wahanol, ac mae gennyf farn wahanol ar y materion hynny. Un o'r methiannau llywodraethu yng Nghymru dros yr 20 mlynedd diwethaf yw nad ydym erioed wedi cydlynu ein ffordd o lywodraethu yng Nghymru, ac un o'r rhesymau nad ydym erioed wedi gwneud hynny yw bod pob un ohonom yn gwybod ein bod wedi creu gormod o sefydliadau, gormod o strwythurau, gormod o brosesau, gormod o bwyllgorau, gormod o gomisiynau ond nid oes yr un ohonom yn barod i ofyn y cwestiynau anodd ac i wynebu hynny. Fel Gweinidog, gofynnais i Aelod blaenllaw o Blaid Cymru a fyddent yn cefnogi ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol. Heb oedi i gymryd anadl, dywedodd y person hwnnw, 'Byddwn, yn sicr, yn ddigamsyniol, ond mae angen ichi neilltuo Ynys Môn ac mae angen i chi neilltuo Ceredigion.' Gofynnais yr un cwestiwn i Aelod blaenllaw o'r Blaid Geidwadol, 'A fyddech chi'n cefnogi ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol?' 'Byddwn, yn ddigamsyniol, dim problem o gwbl, ond byddai'n rhaid i chi neilltuo sir Fynwy.' Ni wnaethant sôn am Aberconwy. Ac roedd y Llywodraeth Lafur ar y pryd, gydag un eithriad, yn gyfan gwbl o blaid ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol, ac rwy'n aml yn meddwl am hynny. Fodd bynnag, yr hyn y credaf fod angen inni ei wneud, a dyma lle rwy'n credu bod yna gysylltiad ac rwy'n ceisio estyn allan i ddod o hyd i'r cysylltiad hwn â Mike, yw bod angen inni greu cydlyniaeth wrth lywodraethu Cymru, oherwydd rydym yn treulio ein holl amser yn dadlau am yr hyn sy'n mynd i fyny ac i lawr yr M4, ond nid ydym yn creu cydlyniaeth o fewn y wlad. Ac i rywun fel fi, sydd eisiau dosbarthu mwy o bwerau y tu allan i'r Siambr hon, a thu allan i Gaerdydd, mae hynny'n golygu cael y strwythurau sy'n gallu defnyddio ac sydd â gallu i wneud y defnydd gorau o'r pwerau ychwanegol hynny. Felly, os ydym o ddifrif ynglŷn â grymuso cymunedau ar hyd a lled Cymru, mae'n rhaid inni gael y strwythurau a'r modd o ariannu'r rheini - strwythurau sy'n gweithio go iawn i'r bobl sy'n byw yn y cymunedau hynny. Ac nid wyf yn credu ein bod wedi gwneud hynny. Ac rwy'n credu bod pob un ohonom, ble bynnag rydym yn eistedd yn y Siambr - . Rwy'n sylwi bod Jane Dodds yma, felly ni wnaf sôn am embaras fy nadleuon gyda'r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ar ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol lle'r oedd cytundeb llwyr, ond awydd i'w wneud ar sail wardiau unigol. Felly, byddai gennym 800 o sgyrsiau gwahanol am ba wardiau a fyddai'n perthyn i wahanol awdurdodau. Mae angen inni fod o ddifrif ynglŷn â sut y gwnawn hynny, ac mae hynny'n golygu, gyda'n gilydd, fod angen dadl gydlynol a deallus a phellweledol a llai hunanol.

I call on the Minister for Finance and Local Government to reply to the debate - Rebecca Evans.

Galwaf ar y Gweinidog Cyllid a Llywodraeth Leol i ymateb i'r ddadl - Rebecca Evans.

Thank you, and thank you very much to Mike Hedges for bringing forward this interesting debate today and, of course, to Alun Davies for his thought-provoking comments as well. How we work together across our public services is what makes us different here in Wales and it's the passion, determination and the care that we see from our public servants in Wales across local government, health, fire and rescue services, police forces and the other organisations involved in public service delivery that enable us to deliver those effective services for our people, and it's our approach of collaboration that makes it work. So, to me, in many ways, our relationships and ways of working are at least as important as the structures that we have in place to support them. I know that Mike Hedges has previously said, and he, I think, repeated it again today, that change should only be considered where there's a very strong chance of improving service. And I think that was very much at the heart of his debate today. And I completely would agree with that. So, my focus is on taking advantage of the ability to be agile and to work as one Welsh public service. 'One Welsh public service' is a term that's been used in Wales now for several years, and there are many examples of the Welsh public sector coming together, irrespective of those organisational boundaries and responsibilities, to deliver better results for citizens, and I think we saw that most clearly during the COVID-19 pandemic. The ethos of the one Welsh public service is something on which, of course, we continue to build, and the Welsh Government has an important leadership role to play, but we are one of many partners. So, we work with our colleagues across the Welsh public sector to further embed a culture that puts people at the heart of our collective efforts. Our priorities at this time, therefore, relate to further developing relationships and distributed leadership across public services. We have a really strong group of leaders at all levels of organisations, and effectiveness and efficiencies don't come from reorganisation, but from that clever joined-up working. The review of strategic partnerships that was undertaken jointly by the WLGA, Welsh Government and the Welsh NHS Confederation, published in June 2020, concluded that there is no one-size-fits-all solution to partnership arrangements. The report also confirmed that a top-down restructure was not sought by partnership members, largely as it might damage successful solutions that were already happening in some areas. The recommendations from the review were clear that it's for local partnerships to lead on aligning partnerships in their area, with public services boards and regional partnership boards taking a strategic leadership role and the Welsh Government offering facilitation support. There is a programme for government commitment to keep regional partnership arrangements under review, together with partners, to ensure that they're efficient. As part of this, I and the designated Member for Plaid Cymru, Cefin Campbell, are meeting with a range of strategic partnerships and will reflect on what we've heard, before sharing our conclusions with the Partnership Council for Wales. The underlying principle is that any changes are locally led, driven by what works best and based on local priorities and existing relationships. The COVID pandemic will have led to some changes in how partnerships work, and, in some cases, the urgent need to work across organisational structures became a catalyst for more efficient, longer term joint working. COVID-19 and its effects on communities in Wales has revealed some stark contrasts, and public services will need to consider the social, economic, environmental and cultural impact of the pandemic, which, in many places, will be felt for years to come. PSBs will have an important role to play in considering and co-ordinating this longer term response, and we are supporting them to reflect on this. And more broadly, PSBs play a vital and valued role in bringing public services together in an area to identify and deliver against their shared priorities. So, mutual goals local leadership and existing relationships are so important in determining and delivering against local priorities. The quality and value of the conversations and the decisions that happen in PSBs and through other partnerships is a result of the investment and the commitment of the representatives and the organisations that they represent. Whatever structure public services are based on, partnership working in an integrated and collaborative way is always going to be essential. Ensuring that partnership structures are best aligned and effective is an ongoing task for all public services. I know that Mike Hedges was not supportive of past proposals for major reorganisations of our local authorities to achieve larger councils, and he's outlined the reasons for that this afternoon, and I agree with him: our local authorities need us to support them in delivering their services and not distract them with plans for structural reorganisation. Instead, the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021 has given us opportunities for a package of reform, including enabling voluntary mergers, if they wish to do so. But instead of looking to reorganise local authorities, we have worked with them to develop improved mechanisms for working together to deliver local government functions at a regional scale where it makes sense to do so. Working closely with leaders, we've established four corporate joint committees - or CJCs - across Wales. These provide a consistent and democratically controlled framework, based on the four geographical areas of the city and growth deals. I know that Mike Hedges set out in his 2018 paper on public service structures that examples of services that would benefit from joint working are based on the regional footprint, our transport, economic development, and regional planning - and again, that's something that he's talked about this afternoon. So, through legislation, we've aligned these very functions identified by Mike Hedges within CJCs to provide an opportunity for regions to consider and capitalise on the interdependencies between them. This will allow local authority partners to deliver regional ambitions, develop successful regional economies, and encourage local growth. So, to conclude, it's the relationships between people and across organisations that, together, deliver our public services in Wales. We are proudly one Welsh public service, and it's this ethos that underpins the behaviours and the culture that we want to see. Relationships transcend structures, and it's our combined passion to deliver high-quality, focused, and compassionate public services that is most important and most powerful.

Diolch yn fawr, a diolch yn fawr iawn i Mike Hedges am gyflwyno'r ddadl ddiddorol hon heddiw, ac wrth gwrs, i Alun Davies am ei sylwadau sy'n procio'r meddwl hefyd. Sut y gweithiwn gyda'n gilydd ar draws ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yw'r hyn sy'n ein gwneud yn wahanol yma yng Nghymru a'r angerdd, y penderfyniad a'r gofal a welwn gan ein gweision cyhoeddus yng Nghymru ar draws llywodraeth leol, iechyd, y gwasanaethau tân ac achub, heddluoedd a'r sefydliadau eraill sy'n ymwneud â darparu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus sy'n ein galluogi i ddarparu'r gwasanaethau effeithiol hynny i'n pobl, a'n dull ni o gydweithio sy'n gwneud iddo weithio. Felly, i mi, mewn sawl ffordd, mae ein perthnasoedd a'n ffyrdd o weithio o leiaf gyn bwysiced â'r strwythurau sydd gennym ar waith i'w cynnal. Rwy'n gwybod bod Mike Hedges wedi dweud o'r blaen, ac rwy'n credu ei fod wedi ei ailadrodd eto heddiw, mai dim ond lle mae gobaith cryf iawn o wella gwasanaeth y dylid ystyried newid. Ac rwy'n credu bod hynny'n ganolog i'w ddadl heddiw. A byddwn yn cytuno'n llwyr â hynny. Felly, fy ffocws yw manteisio ar y gallu i fod yn ystwyth a gweithio fel un gwasanaeth cyhoeddus Cymreig. Mae 'un gwasanaeth cyhoeddus Cymreig' yn derm sydd wedi cael ei ddefnyddio yng Nghymru nawr ers sawl blwyddyn, a cheir sawl enghraifft o'r sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru yn dod at ei gilydd, ni waeth beth yw'r ffiniau a'r cyfrifoldebau sefydliadol, i sicrhau canlyniadau gwell i ddinasyddion, ac rwy'n credu inni weld hynny yn fwyaf amlwg yn ystod y pandemig COVID-19. Mae ethos yr un gwasanaeth cyhoeddus Cymreig yn rhywbeth rydym yn parhau i adeiladu arno wrth gwrs, ac mae gan Lywodraeth Cymru rôl arweiniol bwysig i'w chwarae, ond rydym yn un o nifer o bartneriaid. Felly, rydym yn gweithio gyda'n cydweithwyr ar draws sector cyhoeddus Cymru i wreiddio diwylliant sy'n rhoi pobl wrth galon ein hymdrechion cyfunol. Mae ein blaenoriaethau ar hyn o bryd felly yn ymwneud â datblygu perthnasoedd pellach ac arweinyddiaeth ddosbarthedig ar draws y gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Mae gennym grŵp cryf iawn o arweinwyr ar bob lefel o sefydliadau, ac ni ddaw effeithiolrwydd ac arbedion effeithlonrwydd o ad-drefnu, ond yn hytrach o'r gwaith clyfar cydgsylltiedig hwnnw. Daeth yr adolygiad o bartneriaethau strategol a gynhaliwyd ar y cyd gan CLlLC, Llywodraeth Cymru a Chonffederasiwn GIG Cymru, a gyhoeddwyd ym mis Mehefin 2020, i'r casgliad nad oes ateb un-maint-i-bawb i drefniadau partneriaeth. Fe wnaeth yr adroddiad gadarnhau hefyd nad oedd aelodau'r partneriaethau yn awyddus i weld ailstrwythuro o'r brig i lawr, yn bennaf am y gallai niweidio atebion llwyddiannus a oedd eisoes yn digwydd mewn rhai mannau. Roedd argymhellion yr adolygiad yn glir mai lle partneriaethau lleol yw arwain ar gysoni partneriaethau yn eu hardal, gyda byrddau gwasanaethau cyhoeddus a byrddau partneriaethau rhanbarthol yn mabwysiadu rôl arweiniol strategol a Llywodraeth Cymru yn cynnig cymorth hwyluso. Ceir ymrwymiad yn y rhaglen lywodraethu i gadw trefniadau partneriaeth rhanbarthol dan arolwg, gyda phartneriaid, i sicrhau eu bod yn effeithlon. Fel rhan o hyn, rwyf fi a'r Aelod dynodedig dros Blaid Cymru, Cefin Campbell, yn cyfarfod ag amrywiaeth o bartneriaethau strategol a byddwn yn ystyried yr hyn a glywsom, cyn rhannu ein casgliadau gyda Chyngor Partneriaeth Cymru. Yr egwyddor sylfaenol yw bod unrhyw newidiadau'n cael eu harwain yn lleol, wedi'u gyrru gan yr hyn sy'n gweithio orau ac yn seiliedig ar flaenoriaethau lleol a'r perthnasoedd sy'n bodoli'n barod. Bydd pandemig COVID wedi arwain at rai newidiadau yn y modd y mae partneriaethau'n gweithio, ac mewn rhai achosion, daeth yr angen dybryd i weithio ar draws strwythurau sefydliadol yn gatalydd ar gyfer cydweithio mwy effeithlon, mwy hirdymor. Mae COVID-19 a'i effeithiau ar gymunedau yng Nghymru wedi datgelu rhai gwahaniaethau clir, a bydd angen i wasanaethau cyhoeddus ystyried effaith gymdeithasol, economaidd, amgylcheddol a diwylliannol y pandemig, a fydd, mewn sawl man, i'w theimlo am flynyddoedd i ddod. Bydd gan fyrddau gwasanaethau cyhoeddus rôl bwysig i'w chwarae yn ystyried a chydlynu'r ymateb mwy hirdymor hwn, ac rydym yn eu cynorthwyo i fyfyrio ar hyn. Ac yn ehangach, mae byrddau gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yn chwarae rhan hanfodol a gwerthfawr yn dod â gwasanaethau cyhoeddus at ei gilydd mewn ardal i nodi a chyflawni yn unol â'r blaenoriaethau a rennir ganddynt. Felly, mae nodau cyffredin, arweinyddiaeth leol a'r perthnasoedd sy'n bodoli'n barod mor bwysig ar gyfer penderfynu a chyflawni yn unol â blaenoriaethau lleol. Mae ansawdd a gwerth y sgyrsiau a'r penderfyniadau sy'n digwydd mewn byrddau gwasanaethau cyhoeddus a thrwy bartneriaethau eraill yn ganlyniad i fuddsoddiad ac ymrwymiad y cynrychiolwyr a'r sefydliadau y maent yn eu cynrychioli. Pa strwythur bynnag y mae gwasanaethau cyhoeddus wedi'u seilio arno, mae gweithio mewn partneriaeth mewn ffordd integredig a chydweithredol bob amser yn mynd i fod yn hanfodol. Mae sicrhau bod strwythurau partneriaeth yn cyd-fynd yn y ffordd orau ac yn effeithiol yn dasg barhaus i bob gwasanaeth cyhoeddus. Gwn nad oedd Mike Hedges yn cefnogi cynigion yn y gorffennol ar gyfer ad-drefnu ein hawdurdodau lleol yn helaeth i greu cynghorau mwy o faint, ac mae wedi amlinellu'r rhesymau am hynny y prynhawn yma, ac rwy'n cytuno ag ef: mae ein hawdurdodau lleol angen i ni eu cefnogi i ddarparu eu gwasanaethau a pheidio â thynnu eu sylw oddi ar hynny â chynlluniau ar gyfer ad-drefnu strwythurol. Yn hytrach, mae Deddf Llywodraeth Leol ac Etholiadau (Cymru) 2021 wedi rhoi cyfleoedd i ni sicrhau pecyn o ddiwygiadau, gan gynnwys galluogi uno gwirfoddol, os ydynt am wneud hynny. Ond yn lle ceisio ad-drefnu awdurdodau lleol, rydym wedi gweithio gyda hwy i ddatblygu dulliau gwell o weithio gyda'n gilydd i gyflawni swyddogaethau llywodraeth leol ar raddfa ranbarthol lle mae'n gwneud synnwyr i wneud hynny. Gan weithio'n agos gydag arweinwyr, rydym wedi sefydlu pedwar cyd-bwyllgor corfforedig ledled Cymru. Mae'r rhain yn darparu fframwaith cyson a reolir yn ddemocrataidd, wedi'i seilio ar bedair ardal ddaearyddol y bargeinion dinesig a thwf. Gwn fod Mike Hedges wedi nodi yn ei bapur yn 2018 ar strwythurau gwasanaethau cyhoeddus fod yna enghreifftiau o wasanaethau a fyddai'n elwa o gydweithio yn seiliedig ar yr ôl troed rhanbarthol, ein trafnidiaeth, datblygu economaidd a chynlluniau rhanbarthol - ac unwaith eto, mae hynny'n rhywbeth y mae wedi siarad amdano y prynhawn yma. Felly, drwy ddeddfwriaeth, rydym wedi cysoni'r union swyddogaethau a nododd Mike Hedges o fewn cydbwyllgorau corfforedig i ddarparu cyfle i ranbarthau ystyried a manteisio ar y cyd-ddibyniaethau rhyngddynt. Bydd hyn yn caniatáu i bartneriaid awdurdodau lleol wireddu uchelgeisiau rhanbarthol, datblygu economïau rhanbarthol llwyddiannus, ac annog twf lleol. Felly, i gloi y perthnasoedd rhwng pobl ac ar draws sefydliadau sydd, gyda'i gilydd, yn darparu ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru. Rydym yn un gwasanaeth cyhoeddus Cymreig balch, a'r ethos hwn sy'n sail i'r ymddygiadau a'r diwylliant rydym am ei weld. Mae perthnasoedd yn pontio strwythurau, a'n hangerdd cyfunol i ddarparu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus trwyadl a thosturiol o ansawdd uchel sydd bwysicaf ac yn fwyaf pwerus.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. I want to give time to Jane Dodds and to Rhun ap Iorwerth, and I very much look forward to hearing their contributions. Maternity and childbirth are positive experiences for many of us, but in some circumstances, it can be a very challenging and difficult time, and in this evening's short debate, I want to focus on the mental health issues that face some women, particularly those issues that are related to maternity and childbirth. We must ensure that perinatal mental health services are provided in an appropriate manner across Wales, putting the needs of women, their babies and their families at the heart of the conversation. The provision is not consistent across Wales, and I am concerned that many women in my constituency, and in north Wales more broadly, are suffering due to a lack of provision and resources. Over one in 10 women develop mental illness during pregnancy or within the first year after the birth of their child. This is one of the most common health concerns experienced by pregnant mothers, and without the appropriate treatment, it can have a highly detrimental impact on the mental health of women and their babies, and can place families under huge amounts of strain. But with the right treatment and support, women and their families can get better and can cope. May I turn first of all to community perinatal services? It is a requirement that every woman be allocated a designated health visitor and midwife to monitor any issues that arise and to provide her with support, including referral to the appropriate specialist perinatal services, according to need. I have not been satisfied that this referral happens consistently in the Betsi Cadwaladr health board area.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Dwi am roi amser i Jane Dodds a Rhun ap Iorwerth, ac yn edrych ymlaen at eu cyfraniadau nhw. Mae mamolaeth a chyfnod geni plentyn yn gyfnod positif iawn i lawer ohonom ni, ond dan rhai amgylchiadau, mae'n gallu bod yn gyfnod dyrys ac anodd iawn, ac yn y ddadl fer heno yma, dwi am ganolbwyntio ar y problemau iechyd meddwl sy'n dod i ran rhai merched - yn benodol, problemau sy'n gysylltiedig efo mamolaeth a geni plentyn. Mae angen sicrhau bod gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl amenedigol yn cael eu darparu mewn ffordd briodol ar draws Cymru, gan roi anghenion merched, eu babanod a'u teuluoedd yn ganolog i'r drafodaeth. Dydy'r ddarpariaeth ddim yn gyson ar draws Cymru, a dwi'n bryderus bod llawer o ferched o fy etholaeth i ac yn y gogledd yn fwy cyffredinol yn dioddef yn sgil diffyg darpariaeth ac adnoddau. Mae dros un ym mhob 10 menyw yn datblygu salwch meddwl yn ystod beichiogrwydd neu o fewn y flwyddyn gyntaf o eni plentyn. Dyma un o'r problemau iechyd mwyaf cyffredin i famau beichiog a, heb y driniaeth briodol, mae'n gallu cael effaith andwyol iawn ar iechyd meddwl y merched a'u babanod, ac yn rhoi straen anferth ar deuluoedd. Gyda'r driniaeth a'r gefnogaeth gywir, mae merched a'u teuluoedd yn gallu gwella ac ymdopi. A gaf i droi yn gyntaf at wasanaethau amenedigol cymunedol? Mae hi'n ofynnol i ddarparu ymwelydd iechyd a bydwraig benodol ar gyfer pob menyw beichiog i fonitro unrhyw faterion a rhoi cymorth iddi, gan gynnwys atgyfeirio i'r gwasanaethau amenedigol arbenigol priodol, yn ôl yr angen. Dwi ddim wedi cael fy modloni bod yr arallgyfeirio yma yn digwydd mewn ffordd gyson yn ardal bwrdd iechyd Betsi Cadwaladr.

It is a cause of great concern that Betsi Cadwaladr health board has no budget set aside for low-level or moderate perinatal mental health services, even though £3 million has been allocated for this every year across Wales. This is a significant gap, and it's truly concerning. I ask the Deputy Minister to investigate this and to rectify the situation at once. This funding gap means that women are deteriorating very quickly, developing into serious cases, with significant implications for them and their families, but also financial implications. This situation exists despite the commitment that improving perinatal mental health has been a priority of the Welsh Government since the previous Senedd term, following a report by the Children, Young People and Education Committee. A commitment was made that every health board would have an accessible community service, as well as a commitment to improve access to and the quality of perinatal mental health services. There are weaknesses in the community provision across Wales, which is having a detrimental impact on too many women and too many families. But, these failings are painfully clear in north Wales, so we must move at pace to rectify this. I'm also aware of a lack of spaces for community appointments and that many of these take place in unsuitable settings. This means that it's difficult for Betsi Cadwaladr health board to meet the required standards, not to mention being very discouraging for the staff and women involved. I now turn to services for the more serious cases. Five out of 100 pregnant women will develop a serious mental health condition. Between two and four out of every 1,000 women who have a child will require hospital care. A mother and baby unit is the appropriate place for this care to be received, but far too many women have to be treated on general psychiatric wards, and this means that they're separated from their babies. This can only exacerbate the problem, surely. We know that a unit has been opened in south Wales, and that is wonderful to see. It's time that we saw data on that unit. I would like to ask the Deputy Minister to publish any report produced as a result of a review of the unit since it opened in April 2021. The Government had committed to undertaking a review in April 2022, but, to date, I haven't been able to access any publicly available data. So, I look forward eagerly to seeing these reports and data, as well as the outcomes and the lessons to be learned, as we discuss a unit for north Wales. The Children, Young People and Education Committee's report noted that an MBU in the south would not necessarily be appropriate for mothers and their families in mid and north Wales. It was noted that options should be discussed with NHS England, with a view to establishing a centre in the north-east - the north-east of Wales, that is - that would be able to serve mothers and their children on both sides of the border. The argument that we hear is that there aren't enough cases in north and mid Wales to justify a dedicated unit for the area, but beds in such a unit could be filled through coming to an arrangement with health boards nearby that are part of NHS England. Unfortunately, the decision made was to continue with an eight-bed unit in England with access given to families from north Wales, rather than proceeding in the other way and in the way, indeed, that was recommended in the committee's report. I understand that the intention is to build a unit in Cheshire, which is expected to open in spring of next year, as I understand it. However, it is very difficult to find any further details on this development. The mention made is that this unit will include two beds for women from north Wales, and that Betsi Cadwaladr health board could commission additional beds as demand increases. In my view, this is the incorrect model for meeting the needs of women in my constituency and beyond. It's the wrong model, when there was an alternative option of a model that would have been able to meet the needs in the same way. Aside from the totally unrealistic distances that many mothers would have to travel, there is a further key and fundamental problem that arises in terms of meeting many families' Welsh language needs. I can only begin to imagine how horrendous it would be to have to be far from home at such a time of vulnerability. If Welsh is your first language and it is, therefore, the natural medium of communication with your newborn baby, imagine how alienating that would feel in Cheshire, where the workforce would be monolingual English. If the unit were located in north Wales and it provided beds for women from England, there would be no language barrier or issue because Welsh speakers speak English too. So, we must give urgent attention to the linguistic element in the new model, if this is the model that will be pursued, or I'm afraid that the Government's 'More than just words' strategy will be exposed as empty and meaningless. If it isn't too late, I would ask the Deputy Minister to review the ill-advised decision to establish a unit for women from north Wales in England. I have taken the opportunity in this short debate to outline the fundamental weaknesses in perinatal provision in north Wales, the deficiencies in community services, and the wholly inadequate and unsuitable model in the pipeline for serious cases. I do hope that the Government will take what I've said this evening seriously and will see that I'm trying to improve the situation. My hope is that, by putting this issue under the spotlight here in the Senedd, the Deputy Minister will ask her officials for an urgent report on the situation in north Wales, with firm recommendations for improving the situation for mothers, babies and families across north Wales. Thank you.

Mae hi'n destun pryder mawr nad oes gan fwrdd iechyd Betsi unrhyw gyllideb ar gyfer gwasanaethau amenedigol ysgafn neu gymedrol, er bod £3 miliwn wedi ei neilltuo ar gyfer hyn yn flynyddol ar draws Cymru. Mae hyn yn fwlch sylweddol, ac yn frawychus yn wir, a dwi yn gofyn i'r Dirprwy Weinidog ymchwilio i hyn ac unioni'r sefyllfa ar unwaith. Mae'r bwlch yma yn golygu bod menywod yn dirywio yn sydyn gan ddatblygu yn achosion difrifol, sydd efo goblygiadau sylweddol iddyn nhw a'u teuluoedd, ond hefyd efo goblygiadau ariannol. Mae'r sefyllfa yma yn bodoli er gwaethaf yr ymrwymiad bod gwella gofal iechyd meddwl amenedigol yn flaenoriaeth gan Lywodraeth Cymru ers y tymor seneddol diwethaf yn sgil adroddiad gan y Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg. Fe wnaed ymrwymiad y byddai gan bob bwrdd iechyd wasanaeth cymunedol hygyrch ac ymrwymiad i wella mynediad ac ansawdd gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl amenedigol. Mae gwendidau yn y ddarpariaeth gymunedol ar draws Cymru, sy'n effeithio yn andwyol ar ormod o ferched a gormod o deuluoedd. Ond, mae'r gwendidau yn amlwg o boenus yn y gogledd, ac mae'n rhaid inni symud yn gyflym i unioni hyn. Dwi hefyd yn ymwybodol o ddiffyg gofod ar gyfer apwyntiadau cymunedol a bod llawer o'r rhain yn digwydd mewn lleoliadau anaddas. Mae hyn yn golygu ei bod hi'n anodd i fwrdd iechyd Betsi gyrraedd y safonau priodol heb sôn am fod yn ddiflas iawn i staff a'r merched dan sylw. Dwi'n troi rŵan at y gwasanaethau ar gyfer yr achosion sydd yn codi o broblemau mwy difrifol. Bydd pump o bob 100 o ferched beichiog yn datblygu problem iechyd meddwl difrifol. Bydd rhwng dwy a phedair o bob 1,000 o ferched sy'n cael plentyn angen gofal mewn ysbyty. Uned mamau a babanod ydy'r lle priodol ar gyfer derbyn y gofal hyn, ond mae yna ormod o lawer o famau yn gorfod cael eu trin ar wardiau seiciatryddol cyffredinol. Mae hyn yn golygu eu bod nhw'n cael eu gwahanu oddi wrth eu babanod, a fydd ond yn ychwanegu at y broblem, siŵr iawn. Rydyn ni'n gwybod bod uned wedi cael ei hagor yn y de, ac mae hynny yn wych o beth. Mae'n bryd cael data am yr uned honno ac hoffwn i ofyn i'r Dirprwy Weinidog gyhoeddi unrhyw adroddiad yn sgil adolygiad o'r uned ers iddi agor ym mis Ebrill 2021. Fe wnaeth y Llywodraeth ymrwymo i gynnal adolygiad yn Ebrill 2022, ond, hyd yma, dydw i ddim wedi gallu cael mynediad at ddata cyhoeddus. Felly, dwi'n edrych ymlaen yn eiddgar i weld yr adroddiadau a'r data a hefyd y deilliannau a'r gwersi i'w dysgu wrth i ni drafod uned ar gyfer y gogledd. Roedd adroddiad y pwyllgor plant a phobl Ifanc wedi nodi na fyddai MBU yn y de o angenrheidrwydd yn addas ar gyfer mamau a'u teuluoedd yn y canolbarth a'r gogledd. Nodwyd bod angen trafod opsiynau efo NHS England gyda'r nod o greu canolfan yn y gogledd-ddwyrain, gogledd-ddwyrain Cymru, fyddai'n gallu gwasanaethu mamau a'u plant ar ddwy ochr y ffin. Y ddadl rydyn ni'n ei chlywed ydy nad oes yna ddim digon o achosion yn y gogledd a'r canolbarth i gyfiawnhau uned ar wahân ar gyfer yr ardal ond y gellid llenwi gwelyau mewn uned drwy drefniant â byrddau iechyd cyfagos sydd yn rhan o NHS England. Yn anffodus, y penderfyniad oedd bwrw ymlaen gydag uned wyth gwely yn Lloegr gyda mynediad i deuluoedd o'r gogledd yn lle mynd o'i chwmpas hi'r ffordd arall ac yn y ffordd a argymhellwyd yn adroddiad y pwyllgor, sef uned yng Nghymru fyddai yn hygyrch ar gyfer pobl yn cael eu gwasanaeth drwy NHS Lloegr. Dwi'n deall, erbyn hyn, mai'r bwriad ydy adeiladu uned yn Swydd Gaer a'i bod, yn ôl yr hyn dwi'n ei ddeall, i fod i agor erbyn y gwanwyn flwyddyn nesaf. Ond, rhaid i mi ddweud, mae'n anodd iawn dod o hyd i unrhyw fanylion pellach na hynny. Y sôn ydy y bydd yr uned yma yn cynnwys dau wely ar gyfer merched o'r gogledd, ac y gallai bwrdd iechyd Betsi brynu llefydd ychwanegol wrth i alw gynyddu. Yn fy marn i, dyma'r model anghywir ar gyfer diwallu anghenion merched yn fy etholaeth i a thu hwnt yn y gogledd. Y model anghywir, pan oedd yna ddewis amgen o fodel fyddai wedi gallu diwallu yr anghenion yn yr un ffordd yn union. Oni bai am bellteroedd teithio hollol afrealistig i lawer o famau, mae problem sylfaenol ac allweddol yn codi o ran diwallu anghenion iaith Gymraeg llawer o deuluoedd. Fedraf i ond dychmygu pa mor erchyll fyddai gorfod bod ymhell o gartref mewn cyfnod mor fregus. Os mai'r Gymraeg ydy'ch mamiaith chi a'r cyfrwng cwbl naturiol ar gyfer cyfathrebu efo'ch baban newydd, meddyliwch pa mor estron fyddai hynny yn Swydd Gaer, pan fydd y gweithlu yn uniaith Saesneg. Petai'r uned wedi ei lleoli yn y gogledd ac yn darparu gwelyau ar gyfer merched o Loegr, fyddai yna ddim problem iaith, wrth gwrs, achos mae siaradwyr Cymraeg yn siarad Saesneg hefyd. Felly, mae angen rhoi sylw brys i'r elfen ieithyddol yn y model newydd, os mai hwn fydd yn symud yn ei flaen, neu mae arnaf i ofn bod strategaeth 'Mwy na geiriau' y Llywodraeth yn un wag a diystyr. Os nad ydy hi'n rhy hwyr, mi fuaswn i yn gofyn i'r Dirprwy Weinidog adolygu'r penderfyniad ffôl i greu uned ar gyfer merched y gogledd yn Lloegr. Dwi wedi cymryd y cyfle yn y ddadl yma i nodi'r gwendidau sylfaenol yn y ddarpariaeth amenedigol yn y gogledd, y diffygion yn y gwasanaethau cymunedol, a'r model cwbl annigonol ac amhriodol sydd ar y gweill o ran gwasanaethau ar gyfer achosion difrifol. Dwi yn gobeithio y bydd y Llywodraeth yn cymryd yr hyn dwi'n ei ddweud heddiw o ddifrif ac yn gweld fy mod i'n ceisio gwella'r sefyllfa. Fy ngobaith i ydy, drwy ddod â'r ddadl yma ymlaen a rhoi hyn i gyd o dan y chwyddwydr yma yn y Senedd, y bydd y Dirprwy Weinidog yn gofyn i'w swyddogion hi am adroddiad brys ar y sefyllfa yn y gogledd, efo argymhellion pendant er mwyn gwella'r sefyllfa ar gyfer mamau, babanod a theuluoedd ar draws y gogledd. Diolch.

Thank you to Siân Gwenllian for raising this most important issue.

Diolch i Siân Gwenllian am godi'r mater pwysig, pwysig iawn yma.

This is an issue that we don't hear much about or discuss publicly. It demonstrates still the significant stigma around mental health, especially for new or expectant mothers. I know, through my own experience of being a child protection social worker, how devastating this is in relation not just to mothers but to fathers as well. So, to families, this issue is perhaps a shameful and stigmatising concern and we have to improve services to ensure that we identify those people and actually offer them the right services. My region covers part of Betsi Cadwaladr and Dwyfor Meirionnydd. Representing Mid and West Wales as well, we just need more facilities and more options for our women and parents who are facing significant issues once a baby's born. The new 'Saving Lives, Improving Mothers' Care' report shows that 18 per cent of all maternal deaths in the first year after a baby's birth are due to suicide, and postpartum psychosis is the leading cause of those deaths. The report found that 67 per cent of these suicides could have been prevented if there had been improvements in care. In April 2021, we know that the Uned Gobaith in Swansea opened, providing the first six mother and baby unit beds in Wales. But, that's in Swansea; we need more, and we need them certainly in north Wales. And there's a really particular reason we need them in north Wales, and that's because of the language.

Mae hwn yn fater nad ydym yn clywed llawer amdano nac yn ei drafod yn gyhoeddus. Mae'n dangos y stigma sylweddol sydd ynghlwm wrth iechyd meddwl o hyd, yn enwedig i famau newydd neu famau beichiog. O fy mhrofiad fy hun o fod yn weithiwr cymdeithasol amddiffyn plant, rwy'n gwybod pa mor ddinistriol yw hyn nid yn unig i famau ond i dadau hefyd. Felly, i deuluoedd, mae'r mater hwn efallai'n peri pryder a chywilydd a stigma ac mae'n rhaid inni wella gwasanaethau er mwyn sicrhau ein bod yn gwybod pwy yw'r bobl hynny ac yn cynnig y gwasanaethau cywir iddynt. Mae fy rhanbarth yn cynnwys rhan o Betsi Cadwaladr a Dwyfor Meirionnydd. Gan gynrychioli'r Canolbarth a Gorllewin Cymru hefyd, mae angen mwy o gyfleusterau a mwy o opsiynau i'n menywod a'n rhieni sy'n wynebu problemau sylweddol ar ôl geni babi. Mae adroddiad newydd 'Saving Lives, Improving Mothers' Care' yn dangos bod 18 y cant o'r holl farwolaethau ymhlith mamau yn y flwyddyn gyntaf ar ôl geni babi yn digwydd o ganlyniad i hunanladdiad, a seicosis ôl-enedigol yw prif achos y marwolaethau hynny. Canfu'r adroddiad y gallai 67 y cant o'r achosion o hunanladdiad fod wedi cael eu hatal pe bai gwelliannau wedi bod mewn gofal. Ym mis Ebrill 2021, rydym yn gwybod bod Uned Gobaith yn Abertawe wedi agor, gan ddarparu'r chwe gwely uned mamau a babanod cyntaf yng Nghymru. Ond yn Abertawe y mae hynny; mae angen mwy, ac mae eu hangen yng ngogledd Cymru yn sicr. Ac mae rheswm penodol iawn pam ein bod eu hangen yng ngogledd Cymru, sef yr iaith.

Research has shown that expressing and discussing sensitive, emotional and complex issues such as mental health issues is a far easier experience, is more natural and is less frustrating if you're able to do so in the language of your choice. For many Welsh speakers, doing that in English, never mind how fluent you are in that language, can be extremely difficult. Mental health patients often get more benefit from services provided through the medium of their language of choice, as there are no linguistic barriers to their expression. So, it's hugely important that there is provision in north Wales, and that that takes account of the language used by the families affected.

Mae ymchwil yn dangos bod mynegi a thrafod materion sensitif, emosiynol a chymhleth fel materion iechyd meddwl yn brofiad llawer haws, yn fwy naturiol ac yn llai rhwystredig wrth allu gwneud hynny yn eich dewis iaith. I lawer o siaradwyr Cymraeg, gall wneud hynny yn Saesneg, waeth beth yw eich rhuglder, fod yn eithriadol o anodd. Mae cleifion iechyd meddwl yn aml yn cael mwy o fudd o wasanaethau wedi'u darparu trwy gyfrwng eu dewis iaith, gan nad oes unrhyw rwystrau ieithyddol i'w mynegiant. Felly, mae'n bwysig, bwysig iawn fod yna rywbeth yng ngogledd Cymru, ac i wneud yn siŵr bod hynny yn edrych ar iaith y teuluoedd sy'n cael eu heffeithio.

Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg, in their evidence to the Senedd committee inquiry on mental health inequalities, raised concerns that, despite the measures put in place to improve access to healthcare in Welsh, access to mental healthcare in Welsh remains poor. I do hope that the Minister will consider this issue and be able to respond to some of the concerns that have been raised. We need to make sure that families, when they have that baby, have the most wonderful experience, and we know that postpartum psychosis can really be such a devastating experience, and that we have the services both to identify and support prior to the birth and, if necessary, then continue after the birth, and they need to be fair and consistent across Wales. Thank you - diolch yn fawr iawn.

Yn eu tystiolaeth i ymchwiliad pwyllgor y Senedd ar anghydraddoldebau iechyd meddwl, lleisiodd Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg bryderon fod mynediad at ofal iechyd meddwl, er gwaethaf y mesurau a roddwyd ar waith i wella mynediad at ofal iechyd yn Gymraeg, yn parhau i fod yn wael. Rwy'n gobeithio y bydd y Gweinidog yn ystyried y mater hwn ac yn gallu ymateb i rai o'r pryderon a fynegwyd. Mae angen inni sicrhau bod teuluoedd, pan fyddant yn cael babi, yn cael y profiad mwyaf gwych, ac rydym yn gwybod y gall seicosis ôl-enedigol fod yn brofiad mor ddinistriol, a sicrhau bod gennym wasanaethau i nodi a chefnogi cyn yr enedigaeth, ac os oes angen, i barhau ar ôl yr enedigaeth, ac mae angen iddynt fod yn deg a chyson ledled Cymru. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you to Siân Gwenllian for bringing forward this very important subject at the Senedd today. I'd also like to thank and pay tribute to my former colleague and Member, Steffan Lewis, for the excellent work that he did in this field, shining a light on the need to ensure mental health support in the perinatal phase. Childbirth is an exciting time for many people, but it is a time that places a great deal of strain on others, and what we must ensure is that the level of service provided is sufficient and is consistent in all parts of Wales. It's clear, as we've heard from Siân this evening, that there's a lack of provision across the north of Wales in particular. I agree that the model, if it is the model we will have, of service provision over the border is the wrong one. We know that there's an ongoing conversation about provision of cross-border services, and where expertise has been rooted for many years, such as in Alder Hey hospital, of course, there is an important relationship to foster there. But this is exactly the kind of service that we could and should be providing within north Wales, and why not offer services to those from over the border to come here? The linguistic element is such an important part of it - not just giving geographical proximity, but cultural proximity, at a time when people are at their most vulnerable. So, I too call on the Deputy Minister to ensure that we don't let these women down at such an important time for them.

Diolch i Siân am ddod â'r pwnc pwysig yma i'r Senedd heddiw. Buaswn i hefyd yn licio diolch a thalu teyrnged i'm cyn-gyfaill a chyd-Aelod, Steffan Lewis, am y gwaith rhagorol a wnaeth o yn y maes yma, yn rhoi sylw i'r angen am sicrhau gofal iechyd meddwl amenedigol o safon uchel. Mae amser genedigaeth yn amser cyffrous i lawer o bobl, ond mae'n amser sy'n rhoi straen enfawr ar eraill, a beth sydd angen ei sicrhau ydy bod y lefel o wasanaeth yn ddigonol ac yn gytbwys ym mhob rhan o Gymru. Mae'n berffaith amlwg, fel rydyn ni wedi'i glywed gan Siân heddiw yma, fod yna ddiffyg ar draws y gogledd yn benodol. Dwi'n cytuno'n llwyr bod y model, os mai dyna gawn ni, o gyflwyno'r gwasanaeth dros y ffin yn fodel anghywir. Rydyn ni'n gwybod bod yna drafodaeth sy'n barhaus ynglŷn â darparu gwasanaethau dros y ffin, a lle mae yna arbenigedd wedi'i gwreiddio ers blynyddoedd mawr, fel ysbyty Alder Hey ac ati, wrth gwrs fod yna berthynas bwysig i'w chael. Ond dyma'r union fath o wasanaeth y gallem ni ac y dylem ni fod yn ei ddarparu o fewn y gogledd, a pham lai cynnig gwasanaethau i'r rhai o dros y ffin i ddod iddyn nhw? Mae'r elfen ieithyddol yn rhan mor bwysig ohono fo - nid yn unig i roi'r agosatrwydd daearyddol, ond yr agosatrwydd diwylliant yna i bobl ar adeg pan fyddan nhw ar eu mwyaf bregus. Felly, dwi innau yn galw ar y Gweinidog i sicrhau nad ydyn ni'n gadael i lawr y merched yma ar adeg lle maen nhw'n fwyaf angen ein cymorth ni.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank Siân Gwenllian for bringing forward this debate today? I know that Siân has a long-standing interest in and commitment to perinatal mental health. I'd also like to thank Jane and Rhun, who've contributed to the debate, and to recognise Rhun's acknowledgement of the role that Steffan played in raising this issue up the agenda in the Senedd. It was incredibly important. I also want to take this opportunity to restate my commitment to doing everything I can to ensure that mothers and families get the perinatal mental health support in Wales they need and deserve. As Siân knows, I chaired the Children, Young People and Education Committee's inquiry into perinatal mental health in the last Senedd. I am acutely aware of how vital perinatal mental health support is, not just for mothers, but for the babies who are in that precious first 1,000 days of their life. We know that their development in that time can be critical for their lifelong life chances. I'm also committed to ensuring the recommendations that came from the inquiry are implemented.

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. A gaf fi ddiolch i Siân Gwenllian am gyflwyno'r ddadl hon heddiw? Gwn fod gan Siân ddiddordeb hirsefydlog mewn iechyd meddwl amenedigol a'i bod wedi ymrwymo i'r mater. Hoffwn ddiolch hefyd i Jane a Rhun, sydd wedi cyfrannu at y ddadl, a chydnabod cydnabyddiaeth Rhun i'r rôl a chwaraeodd Steffan yn codi'r mater hwn ar yr agenda yn y Senedd. Roedd yn hynod o bwysig. Rwyf hefyd am achub ar y cyfle hwn i ailddatgan fy ymrwymiad i wneud popeth a allaf i sicrhau bod mamau a theuluoedd yn cael y gefnogaeth iechyd meddwl amenedigol y maent ei hangen ac yn ei haeddu yng Nghymru. Fel y gŵyr Siân, cadeiriais ymchwiliad y Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg i iechyd meddwl amenedigol yn y Senedd ddiwethaf. Rwy'n ymwybodol iawn o ba mor hanfodol yw cymorth iechyd meddwl amenedigol, nid yn unig i famau, ond i'r babanod sydd yn y 1,000 diwrnod cyntaf gwerthfawr hynny o'u bywydau. Gwyddom y gall eu datblygiad yn yr amser hwnnw fod yn allweddol i'w cyfleoedd bywyd gydol oes. Rwyf hefyd wedi ymrwymo i sicrhau bod yr argymhellion a ddaeth o'r ymchwiliad yn cael eu gweithredu.

We are making significant progress, but we also recognise there is more to do, and we remain committed to improving perinatal mental health services, and this has been a priority area for action within our 'Together for Mental Health' delivery plan 2019-2022. We're now working on the development of the successor to the plan, and I can tell the Chamber that perinatal mental health will continue to be a priority in the successor plan. We will be engaging with the perinatal mental health network as we develop this work. As part of this, we'll also be looking to see how we can develop the pathway approach, recognising that specialist services are one element of this. As part of our maternity and early years care and support, health boards already work with families as part of an early intervention approach. Every mother and family has a named midwife to support them in pregnancy and postnatally. This includes consideration of perinatal mental well-being, and pathways are in place for those who need a referral to specialist services. All health boards now have a specialist perinatal mental health midwife in post who can support mothers and families to ensure they receive the care and support they need. Since 2015, we've invested in specialist perinatal mental health services across Wales, and, as a result, significant progress has been made in provision. There are now services in every health board area, and over £3 million of mental health service improvement funding is supporting these services annually. From a north Wales perspective, over £800,000 of this funding has been allocated to support perinatal mental health. I was really pleased to get the opportunity a while ago to visit the perinatal mental health team in north Wales. Their commitment to the mothers they support was palpable, and I want to pay tribute to them for the work they do day in, day out supporting mothers in north Wales. Can I give Siân Gwenllian the commitment that I will look at what she has said today about the lower level support? It's not something that has been picked up in my conversations about perinatal mental health in north Wales, but I will pick that up with officials and provide you with a further update. All health boards are also working towards meeting the relevant Royal College of Psychiatrists' quality standards, and we've also made service improvement funding available to support this work. Health boards have made good progress towards these standards, including in north Wales, but there is more work to be done to ensure the care provided is of the highest standard. In Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, services are currently compliant with 91 per cent of type 1 standards and 75 per cent of type 2 standards. Our national clinical lead for perinatal mental health is continuing to work with services to identify where there are gaps in meeting the standards, and to put plans in place to address this. Welsh Government continues to be committed to supporting services to meet these standards. Common themes that have been identified for improvement include the provision of clinical space that is family orientated, which you've highlighted, adequate office space for teams, and the provision of information around carers' rights and advocacy. Over recent months, the all-Wales perinatal mental health clinical lead and the perinatal mental health network have developed a pathway of care. The aim of the pathways is to standardise practice, to provide clarity around roles and responsibilities, and reflect a preventative early intervention and evidence-based approach. As well as providing equity, these pathways should ensure that the right care is provided by the right people and at the right time. As Members have highlighted, in April 2021 we opened a mother and baby unit within the Swansea Bay University Health Board area. This marked a really important step forward in providing improved perinatal mental health support for mothers in Wales. This centre is an important part of improving the experience of new mothers, as they will be able to get the specialist support they need for themselves and their babies closer to home. I was able to visit the south Wales MBU, our Uned Gobaith, last year. It was fantastic to meet the hugely committed team, but also to meet some mothers, who spoke really powerfully about the difference having MBU support had made to them. The Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee have undertaken a review of the south Wales mother and baby unit, where it was agreed to continue to support the service on the current Tonna site, and to keep this under review. Whilst I am really pleased we have this service in south Wales, I recognise that this is too far away to be an appropriate service for women living in north Wales, and I am committed to providing provision closer to home for mothers in north Wales. The modelling undertaken in Wales has evidenced that we do not currently have enough demand to have a standalone unit in north Wales, and that's why we've been working with NHS England in order to develop a joint unit in north-west England that enables access to mothers from north Wales. As such, there continues to be significant engagement between Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, the Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee and NHS England regarding the development of this new unit. The business case was signed off in December 2022 and we're expecting the service to be operational in summer 2024. I recognise that this is some time away, and officials are working with WHSSC to identify any opportunities to accelerate these timescales if possible. We're also working with the provider to support the Welsh language needs of patients when developing the unit. And can I assure you, Siân, that I entirely recognise the importance of being able to communicate - and to Jane as well - through your first language when you are in the situation where you are needing such acute mental health support? So, establishing this provision for north Wales will be a key priority over these coming months. I hope that this provides some reassurance to Members about the support that is currently available for mothers in north Wales and the progress that has been made on developing provision across Wales. I recognise -

Rydym yn gwneud cynnydd sylweddol, ond rydym hefyd yn cydnabod bod mwy i'w wneud, ac rydym yn parhau i fod yn ymrwymedig i wella gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl amenedigol, a bu hwn yn faes blaenoriaeth ar gyfer gweithredu yn ein cynllun cyflawni 'Law yn Llaw at Iechyd Meddwl' 2019-2022. Rydym yn gweithio nawr ar ddatblygu olynydd i'r cynllun, a gallaf ddweud wrth y Siambr y bydd iechyd meddwl amenedigol yn parhau i fod yn flaenoriaeth yn y cynllun olynol. Byddwn yn ymwneud â'r rhwydwaith iechyd meddwl amenedigol wrth inni ddatblygu'r gwaith hwn. Yn rhan o hyn, byddwn hefyd yn ceisio gweld sut y gallwn ddatblygu'r dull llwybr, gan gydnabod bod gwasanaethau arbenigol yn un elfen o hyn. Yn rhan o'n gofal a chymorth mamolaeth a blynyddoedd cynnar, mae byrddau iechyd eisoes yn gweithio gyda theuluoedd fel rhan o ddull ymyrraeth gynnar. Mae gan bob mam a theulu fydwraig benodol i'w cefnogi yn ystod beichiogrwydd ac yn ôl-enedigol. Mae hyn yn cynnwys ystyried lles meddyliol amenedigol, ac mae llwybrau yn eu lle ar gyfer y rhai sydd angen cael eu hatgyfeirio at wasanaethau arbenigol. Erbyn hyn, mae gan bob bwrdd iechyd fydwraig iechyd meddwl amenedigol arbenigol yn ei swydd sy'n gallu cefnogi mamau a theuluoedd i sicrhau eu bod yn cael y gofal a'r gefnogaeth sydd eu hangen arnynt. Ers 2015, rydym wedi buddsoddi mewn gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl amenedigol arbenigol ar draws Cymru, ac o ganlyniad, gwnaed cynnydd sylweddol yn y ddarpariaeth. Erbyn hyn, ceir gwasanaethau ym mhob ardal bwrdd iechyd, ac mae dros £3 miliwn o gyllid gwella gwasanaeth iechyd meddwl yn cefnogi'r gwasanaethau hyn yn flynyddol. O safbwynt y gogledd, mae dros £800,000 o'r cyllid hwn wedi'i ddyrannu i gefnogi iechyd meddwl amenedigol. Roeddwn yn falch iawn o gael cyfle ychydig yn ôl i ymweld â'r tîm iechyd meddwl amenedigol yng ngogledd Cymru. Roedd eu hymrwymiad i'r mamau y maent yn eu cefnogi yn amlwg, ac rwyf eisiau talu teyrnged iddynt am y gwaith a wnânt ddydd ar ôl dydd yn cefnogi mamau yng ngogledd Cymru. A gaf fi roi ymrwymiad i Siân Gwenllian y byddaf yn edrych ar yr hyn a ddywedodd heddiw am y cymorth lefel is? Nid yw'n rhywbeth sydd wedi'i godi yn fy sgyrsiau am iechyd meddwl amenedigol yng ngogledd Cymru, ond byddaf yn mynd ar drywydd hynny gyda swyddogion ac yn rhoi diweddariad pellach i chi. Mae pob bwrdd iechyd hefyd yn gweithio tuag at gyrraedd safonau ansawdd perthnasol Coleg Brenhinol y Seiciatryddion, ac rydym wedi sicrhau bod cyllid gwella gwasanaeth ar gael i gefnogi'r gwaith hwn hefyd. Mae byrddau iechyd wedi gwneud cynnydd da tuag at y safonau hyn, gan gynnwys yn y gogledd, ond mae mwy o waith i'w wneud i sicrhau bod y gofal sy'n cael ei ddarparu o'r safon uchaf. Ym Mwrdd Iechyd Prifysgol Betsi Cadwaladr, ar hyn o bryd mae gwasanaethau'n cydymffurfio â 91 y cant o safonau math 1 a 75 y cant o safonau math 2. Mae ein harweinydd clinigol cenedlaethol ar gyfer iechyd meddwl amenedigol yn parhau i weithio gyda gwasanaethau i nodi lle mae bylchau o ran cyrraedd y safonau, ac i roi cynlluniau ar waith i fynd i'r afael â hyn. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru'n parhau'n ymrwymedig i gynorthwyo gwasanaethau i gyrraedd y safonau hyn. Ymhlith y themâu cyffredin sydd wedi'u nodi ar gyfer gwella mae darparu gofod clinigol sy'n canolbwyntio ar y teulu, rhywbeth y gwnaethoch chi dynnu sylw ato, digon o ofod swyddfa ar gyfer timau, a darparu gwybodaeth ynghylch hawliau gofalwyr ac eiriolaeth. Dros y misoedd diwethaf, mae arweinydd clinigol iechyd meddwl amenedigol Cymru a'r rhwydwaith iechyd meddwl amenedigol wedi datblygu llwybr gofal. Nod y llwybrau yw safoni ymarfer, darparu eglurder ynghylch rolau a chyfrifoldebau, ac adlewyrchu ymyrraeth gynnar ataliol a dull sy'n seiliedig ar dystiolaeth. Yn ogystal â darparu tegwch, dylai'r llwybrau hyn sicrhau bod y gofal cywir yn cael ei ddarparu gan y bobl gywir ac ar yr adeg gywir. Fel y nododd yr Aelodau, ym mis Ebrill 2021 fe wnaethom agor uned i famau a babanod yn ardal Bwrdd Iechyd Prifysgol Bae Abertawe. Roedd hwn yn gam pwysig iawn ymlaen i ddarparu gwell cefnogaeth iechyd meddwl amenedigol i famau yng Nghymru. Mae'r ganolfan hon yn rhan bwysig o wella profiad mamau newydd, gan y byddant yn gallu cael y gefnogaeth arbenigol y maent ei hangen iddynt eu hunain a'u babanod yn nes at adref. Gallais ymweld ag uned mamau a babanod de Cymru, ein Huned Gobaith, y llynedd. Roedd yn wych cael cyfarfod â'r tîm hynod ymroddedig, a mamau hefyd, a siaradodd yn wirioneddol bwerus am y gwahaniaeth roedd cael cefnogaeth uned mamau a babanod wedi'i wneud iddynt hwy. Mae Pwyllgor Gwasanaethau Iechyd Arbenigol Cymru wedi cynnal adolygiad o'r uned mamau a babanod yn ne Cymru, lle cytunwyd i barhau i gefnogi'r gwasanaeth ar safle presennol Tonna, a chadw hyn dan arolwg. Er fy mod yn falch iawn fod gennym y gwasanaeth hwn yn ne Cymru, rwy'n cydnabod ei fod yn rhy bell i ffwrdd i fod yn wasanaeth priodol i fenywod sy'n byw yn y gogledd, ac rwyf wedi ymrwymo i sicrhau darpariaeth yn nes at adref i famau yn y gogledd. Mae'r gwaith modelu a wnaed yng Nghymru wedi dangos nad oes digon o alw ar hyn o bryd i gael uned annibynnol yng ngogledd Cymru, a dyna pam ein bod wedi bod yn gweithio gyda GIG Lloegr er mwyn datblygu uned ar y cyd yng ngogledd-orllewin Lloegr sy'n galluogi mamau i ddod iddi o ogledd Cymru. Yn hynny o beth, mae cryn dipyn o ymgysylltiad rhwng Bwrdd Iechyd Prifysgol Betsi Cadwaladr, Pwyllgor Gwasanaethau Iechyd Arbenigol Cymru a GIG Lloegr ynghylch datblygu'r uned newydd hon. Cafodd yr achos busnes ei gymeradwyo ym mis Rhagfyr 2022 ac rydym yn disgwyl i'r gwasanaeth fod yn weithredol yn ystod haf 2024. Rwy'n cydnabod bod hyn beth amser i ffwrdd, ac mae swyddogion yn gweithio gyda Phwyllgor Gwasanaethau Iechyd Arbenigol Cymru ar nodi unrhyw gyfleoedd i gyflymu'r amserlenni hyn os yn bosibl. Rydym hefyd yn gweithio gyda'r darparwr i gefnogi anghenion cleifion Cymraeg eu hiaith wrth ddatblygu'r uned. Ac a gaf fi eich sicrhau, Siân, fy mod i'n llwyr gydnabod pwysigrwydd gallu cyfathrebu - a Jane hefyd - drwy eich iaith gyntaf pan fyddwch chi mewn sefyllfa lle rydych chi gymaint o angen cymorth iechyd meddwl? Felly, bydd sefydlu'r ddarpariaeth hon ar gyfer gogledd Cymru yn flaenoriaeth allweddol dros y misoedd nesaf hyn. Gobeithio bod hyn yn rhoi rhywfaint o dawelwch meddwl i'r Aelodau ynglŷn â'r gefnogaeth sydd ar gael ar hyn o bryd i famau yng ngogledd Cymru a'r cynnydd a wnaed ar ddatblygu'r ddarpariaeth ledled Cymru. Rwy'n cydnabod -

Did you look at the alternative model, which was the one that the committee recommended in the report that you chaired - the alternative model of providing the unit in Wales, and therefore the Welsh language needs would be met and it would obviously be nearer to home for many women, rather than the model that is now on offer, which is going to create a lot of problems around the linguistic needs of mothers and their families? And to be honest, Chester is a really long way from Amlwch.

A wnaethoch chi edrych ar y model amgen, sef yr un roedd y pwyllgor yn ei argymell yn yr adroddiad a gadeiriwyd gennych - y model amgen o ddarparu'r uned yng Nghymru, ac felly byddai anghenion iaith Gymraeg yn cael eu diwallu ac yn amlwg byddai'n nes at adref i lawer o fenywod, yn hytrach na'r model sydd bellach yn cael ei gynnig, sy'n mynd i greu llawer o broblemau gydag anghenion ieithyddol mamau a'u teuluoedd? Ac i fod yn onest, mae Caer yn bell iawn o Amlwch.

Well, Siân, when I came into post, the plans for the unit over the border were already in train, with WHSSC having done a piece of analysis to identify the potential levels of need in north Wales. So, it was on that basis that the decision was taken to have the unit just over the border. And I know that Jane made the point about having these readily accessible services, but they are specialist services, so we would never be in a position where we'd have MBUs scattered all over the place in Wales. They're highly specialised, with multidisciplinary teams, and they serve the women who have the most acute problems - so, as Jane said, postpartum psychosis, which is incredibly serious. So, it preceded my time, the analysis of it, but that is my understanding of the work that was undertaken to identify need. And from my point of view, Siân, I want there to be a service now as quickly as we can get it, and scrapping everything that's been done would be a very lengthy process, and I want the women in north Wales to have access to a service as soon as we possibly can. I recognise that, despite the strong work that has been undertaken by services, there is more to do, and we need to make further progress to ensure that services are of the high standard that mothers in Wales deserve. This includes the work to ensure that mother and baby unit provision meets the needs of mothers in north Wales. I look forward to working together to further develop perinatal mental health services in Wales. Diolch.

Wel, Siân, pan ddeuthum i'r swydd, roedd y cynlluniau ar gyfer yr uned dros y ffin eisoes ar y gweill, gyda Phwyllgor Gwasanaethau Iechyd Arbenigol Cymru wedi gwneud dadansoddiad i nodi'r lefelau posib o angen yng ngogledd Cymru. Felly, ar y sail honno y gwnaed y penderfyniad i gael yr uned ychydig dros y ffin. Ac rwy'n gwybod bod Jane wedi gwneud y pwynt am gael gwasanaethau hygyrch, ond maent yn wasanaethau arbenigol, felly ni fyddem byth mewn sefyllfa lle byddai gennym unedau mamau a babanod wedi'u gwasgaru ar hyd y lle yng Nghymru. Maent yn arbenigol iawn, gyda thimau amlddisgyblaethol, ac maent yn gwasanaethu'r menywod sydd â'r problemau mwyaf dwys - felly, fel y dywedodd Jane, seicosis ôl-enedigol, sy'n hynod o ddifrifol. Felly, roedd y dadansoddiad ar y gweill cyn fy amser i, ond dyna fy nealltwriaeth i o'r gwaith a wnaed i nodi angen. Ac o'm safbwynt i, Siân, rwyf am weld gwasanaeth yno nawr mor gyflym ag y gallwn ei gael, a byddai cael gwared ar bopeth sydd wedi'i wneud yn broses hir iawn, ac rwyf eisiau i'r menywod yng ngogledd Cymru gael mynediad at wasanaeth cyn gynted ag y gallwn. Er gwaetha'r gwaith cadarn a wnaed gan wasanaethau, rwy'n cydnabod bod mwy i'w wneud, ac mae angen inni wneud cynnydd pellach er mwyn sicrhau bod y gwasanaethau o'r safon uchel y mae mamau yng Nghymru'n ei haeddu. Mae hyn yn cynnwys y gwaith i sicrhau bod darpariaeth yr uned mamau a babanod yn diwallu anghenion mamau yng ngogledd Cymru. Edrychaf ymlaen at gydweithio i ddatblygu gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl amenedigol ymhellach yng Nghymru. Diolch.

I thank the Deputy Minister. And that brings today's proceedings to a close.

Diolch i'r Dirprwy Weinidog. A daw hynny â thrafodion heddiw i ben.

Thank you very much. Welcome and good afternoon.

Diolch yn fawr. Croeso a phrynhawn da.

Thank you, Chair. I just wanted to note paper 3.3 from the Minister, Julie James. I want to express my appreciation that she's provided us with some information, and I'll read that sentence: 'In the interest of being as open as possible with the Committee, I understand that UK Ministers are due to table further amendments to the [Social Housing (Regulation) ] Bill at House of Commons Report stage.' So, we will have to continue the legislative consent motion process. But I do appreciate that she forewarned us of that.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Dim ond i nodi papur rhif 3.3 gan y Gweinidog, Julie James. Dwi eisiau mynegi gwerthfawrogiad ei bod hi'n rhoi gwybodaeth i ni rhag blaen, a gwnaf i ddarllen y frawddeg hynny: 'Er mwyn bod mor agored â phosibl â'r Pwyllgor, rwyf ar ddeall y bydd Gweinidogion y DU yn cyflwyno gwelliannau pellach i'r Bil [Tai Cymdeithasol (Rheoleiddio) Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol] yn ystod y cyfnod Adrodd yn Nhŷ'r Cyffredin.' Felly, byddwn ni'n gorfod mynd drwy'r broses a pharhau â'r broses cynnig cydsyniad deddfwriaethol unwaith eto. Ond dwi'n gwerthfawrogi ei bod hi wedi rhoi rhagrybudd i ni am hynny.