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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and terrified by that possibility. Cognitive light cone, I think we also talked about the
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:33:25.840
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
outer boundary in space and time of the largest goal a given system can work towards. Is this
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:33:31.800
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
kind of like shaping the set of options?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:33:39.220
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
It's a little different than options. It's really focused on... I first came up with
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:33:42.500
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
this back in 2018, I want to say. There was a conference, a Templeton conference where
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:33:49.680
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
they challenged us to come up with frameworks. I think actually it's the diverse intelligence
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
community.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Summer Institute.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:34:02.160
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Yeah, they had a Summer Institute.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
That's the logos, the bee with some circuits.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:34:04.160
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Yeah, it's got different life forms. The whole program is called diverse intelligence. They
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:34:06.640
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
challenged us to come up with a framework that was suitable for analyzing different
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:34:13.360
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
kinds of intelligence together. Because the kinds of things you do to a human are not
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:34:18.240
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
good with an octopus, not good with a plant and so on. I started thinking about this.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I asked myself what do all cognitive agents, no matter what their provenance, no matter
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:34:29.560
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
what their architecture is, what do cognitive agents have in common? It seems to me that
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:34:35.560
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
what they have in common is some degree of competency to pursue a goal. What you can
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:34:41.560
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
do then is you can draw. What I ended up drawing was this thing that it's kind of like a backwards
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:34:46.480
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Minkowski cone diagram where all of space is collapsed into one axis and then here and
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:34:51.720
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
then time is this axis. Then what you can do is you can draw for any creature, you can
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:34:58.520
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
semi quantitatively estimate what are the spatial and temporal goals that it's capable
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:35:04.160
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
of pursuing.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:35:12.360
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
For example, if you are a tick and all you really are able to pursue is maximum or a
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:35:13.360
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
bacterium and maximizing the level of some chemical in your vicinity, that's all you've
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:35:20.240
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
got, it's a tiny little icon, then you're a simple system like a tick or a bacterium.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:35:24.800
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
If you are something like a dog, well, you've got some ability to care about some spatial
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:35:29.440
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
region, some temporal. You can remember a little bit backwards, you can predict a little
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:35:37.520
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
bit forwards, but you're never ever going to care about what happens in the next town
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:35:41.680
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
over four weeks from now. As far as we know, it's just impossible for that kind of architecture.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:35:46.280
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
If you're a human, you might be working towards world peace long after you're dead. You might
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:35:51.680
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
have a planetary scale goal that's enormous. Then there may be other greater intelligences
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:35:56.580
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
somewhere that can care in the linear range about numbers of creatures, some sort of Buddha
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:36:04.120
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
like character that can care about everybody's welfare, really care the way that we can't.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
It's not a mapping of what you can sense, how far you can sense. It's not a mapping
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
of how far you can act. It's a mapping of how big are the goals you are capable of envisioning
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:36:20.640
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and working towards. I think that enables you to put synthetic kinds of constructs,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:36:25.720
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
AIs, aliens, swarms, whatever on the same diagram because we're not talking about what
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:36:33.880
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you're made of or how you got here. We're talking about what are the size and complexity
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:36:40.120
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
of the goals towards which you can work.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:36:44.720
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Is there any other terms that pop into mind that are interesting?
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I'm trying to remember. I have a list of them somewhere on my website.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:36:50.760
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Human morphology, yeah, definitely check it out. Morphosutical, I like that one. Ionisutical.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Yeah. Those refer to different types of interventions in the regenerative medicine space. Amorphosutical
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:37:01.840
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
is something that it's a kind of intervention that really targets the cells decision making
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
process about what they're going to build. Ionisuticals are like that, but more focused
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
specifically on the bioelectrics. There's also, of course, biochemical, biomechanical,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:37:20.640
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
who knows what else, maybe optical kinds of signaling systems there as well.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Target morphology is interesting. It's designed to capture this idea that it's not just feedforward
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:37:29.160
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
emergence and oftentimes in biology, I mean, of course that happens too, but in many cases
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:37:37.920
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
in biology, the system is specifically working towards a target in anatomical morphospace.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
It's a navigation task really. These kinds of problem solving can be formalized as navigation
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:37:48.440
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
tasks and that they're really going towards a particular region. How do you know? Because
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you deviate them and then they go back.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Let me ask you, because you've really challenged a lot of ideas in biology in the work you
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:38:03.720
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
do, probably because some of your rebelliousness comes from the fact that you came from a different
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:38:12.160
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
field of computer engineering, but could you give advice to young people today in high
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
school or college that are trying to pave their life story, whether it's in science
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:38:23.800
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
or elsewhere, how they can have a career they can be proud of or a life they can be proud
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
of advice?
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Boy, it's dangerous to give advice because things change so fast, but one central thing
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I can say, moving up and through academia and whatnot, you will be surrounded by really
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:38:42.320
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
smart people. What you need to do is be very careful at distinguishing specific critique
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
versus kind of meta advice. What I mean by that is if somebody really smart and successful
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and obviously competent is giving you specific critiques on what you've done, that's gold.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
It's an opportunity to hone your craft, to get better at what you're doing, to learn,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
to find your mistakes. That's great.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
If they are telling you what you ought to be studying, how you ought to approach things,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
what is the right way to think about things, you should probably ignore most of that. The
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
reason I make that distinction is that a lot of really successful people are very well
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
calibrated on their own ideas and their own field and their own area. They know exactly
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
what works and what doesn't and what's good and what's bad, but they're not calibrated
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
on your ideas. The things they will say, oh, this is a dumb idea, don't do this and you
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:39:46.460
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
shouldn't do that, that stuff is generally worse than useless. It can be very demoralizing
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and really limiting. What I say to people is read very broadly, work really hard, know
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
what you're talking about, take all specific criticism as an opportunity to improve what
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you're doing and then completely ignore everything else. I just tell you from my own experience,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
most of what I consider to be interesting and useful things that we've done, very smart
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
people have said, this is a terrible idea, don't do that. I think we just don't know.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
We have no idea beyond our own. At best, we know what we ought to be doing. We very rarely
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
know what anybody else should be doing.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Yeah, and their ideas, their perspective has been also calibrated, not just on their field
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and specific situation, but also on a state of that field at a particular time in the
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
past. There's not many people in this world that are able to achieve revolutionary success
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
multiple times in their life. Whenever you say somebody very smart, usually what that
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:40:57.880
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
means is somebody who's smart, who achieved a success at a certain point in their life
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and people often get stuck in that place where they found success. To be constantly challenging
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
your worldview is a very difficult thing. Also at the same time, probably if a lot of
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
people tell, that's the weird thing about life, if a lot of people tell you that something
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
is stupid or is not going to work, that either means it's stupid, it's not going to work,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
or it's actually a great opportunity to do something new and you don't know which one
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
it is and it's probably equally likely to be either. Well, I don't know, the probabilities.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Depends how lucky you are, depends how brilliant you are, but you don't know and so you can't
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:41:49.920
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
take that advice as actual data.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Yeah, you have to and this is kind of hard to describe and fuzzy, but I'm a firm believer
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
that you have to build up your own intuition. So over time, you have to take your own risks
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
that seem like they make sense to you and then learn from that and build up so that
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:42:09.160
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you can trust your own gut about what's a good idea even when, and then sometimes you'll
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:42:13.580
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
make mistakes and they'll turn out to be a dead end and that's fine, that's science,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
but what I tell my students is life is hard and science is hard and you're going to sweat
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and bleed and everything and you should be doing that for ideas that really fire you
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