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... | ... more people are perhaps very reasonably concerned about how much data these companies collect, to put in place a bill that might encourage more collection of even more sensitive data, and think that that is a- | 5,400 |
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... | [inaudible 00:08:19] is less useful than immunity in the first place. right?yeah. and... yeah, sorry, just to cut in... as an example that- | 5,401 |
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... | ... [inaudible 00:08:29] think a lot of people who listen to this will understand is, there's been this constant fight in the copyright context of fair use, and whether or not fair use- | 5,402 |
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... | ... it says it's not an infringement of copyright, therefore, it should be considered an immunity. and yet it has been interpreted by the courts as a defense to infringement, that if you're accused of infringement [inaudible 00:08:59]- | 5,403 |
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... | ... in that case, the only way you can prove fair use, is if you go through a long and costly trial. and so, that is in sort of the concern- | 5,404 |
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... | ... with the leahy amendment, is that you will only discover whether or not you are protected for your encryption uses after a lengthy trial, more or less. | 5,405 |
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... | ... fair use can be so fact-intensive. right?sure.and that means, you might need to take a lot of discovery, figure out where the evidence- | 5,406 |
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... | ... points to, maybe it's something that you'd bring in more, the summary judgment type phase. i would like to think that we could- | 5,407 |
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... | ... [inaudible 00:09:48] if this bill were to pass, have this liability protection under the leahy amendments come in more at 'motion to dismiss' stage, earlier on- | 5,408 |
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... | and for those not well-versed in how federal lawsuits play out, a motion to dismiss comes before discovery in most cases, which comes before summary judgment, and so- | 5,409 |
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... | ... motion to dismiss on section 230 grounds. usually also, in addition to other things like, oh, i don't know, the first amendment, that would apply to kill- | 5,410 |
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... | ... the lawsuit anyway, even in the absence of 230. but i used to be a litigator in private practice at a large law firm here in the bay area. | 5,411 |
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... | ... to even get to the point where you can get a lawsuit thrown out that never should have been brought in the first place. if i were a federal judge, i would be handing out sanctions like- | 5,412 |
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... | "... of your end-to-end encryption design. it's some other reason." right?right.and i think it would be easy with creative lawyering or not particularly creative lawyering to come up with any number of- | 5,414 |
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... | ... reasons. so it might only just take away one of the reasons that you might be bringing to try and prove your case for liability under state's- | 5,415 |
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... | [inaudible 00:04:51] protected under section 230 when they shouldn't have been. that turns out to not really be the case, and so, that's part of the reason why i hesitated, and of course- | 5,416 |
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... | ... mainly, we're talking about back page and of course backpage got shut down the week before sesta/fosta became law. and there were questions about whether or not backpage was actually a bad actor, but that's... | 5,417 |
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... | now people are actually cataloging it, in order to help block it. and it feels like that voluntary effort to help block this material is now being turned against the platform. | 5,419 |
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... | i'll note that at least one of the co-sponsors of the bill, which is lindsey graham, is up for election this year again, which might explain some of his enthusiasm for- | 5,420 |
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... | ... this very bad bill, but that's... [crosstalk 00:05:43]i think that could certainly be a part of it. it's that- | 5,421 |
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... | ... old saw of, there's this problem, right? there's been sesa material on the internet for as long as there's been internet, and with this or with any other problem,- | 5,422 |
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... | ... if everybody's telling them, this is a terrible idea, this isn't going to fix the problem that you're solving. it could make a lot of other problems worse.' there's this incentive- | 5,423 |
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... | ... as you say, they've been seen doing something, especially if you're up for re-election. and i think it's kind of helpful really, to try and get outside of our- | 5,424 |
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... | ... possibly think this is good, that this is a good idea? but i'm not some grandma in south carolina who is- | 5,425 |
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... | ... i don't think i can go along with this, precisely because they're then opened up to the extremely easy response of, 'how can you possibly be against protecting the children?' | 5,427 |
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... | and so, the fact that the earn it bill was so controversial earlier, i think the manager's amendment, all the changes that were made and in particular, the leahy amendment- | 5,428 |
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... | ... regarding some attempt to protect encryption, are ways to make this terrible bill seem more palatable, in order to give a lot of members who might want to- | 5,429 |
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... | it's like it carves encryption out of the bill. there are concerns as to how accurate that is. do you want to describe kind of what the leahy amendment says and what it does, and where the concerns are?sure. | 5,430 |
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... | ... who is at stanford, daphne keller. and now, we have the earn it bill as sort of the latest, where there's these attempts to reign in the bad stuff on the internet. | 5,432 |
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-0.... | ... big tech boogie [inaudible 00:02:25], to incentivize them to remove a bunch of illegal content, because that is potentially the easiest way- | 5,434 |
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... | riana pfefferkorn is the associate director of surveillance and cybersecurity at the stanford center for internet and society, and has been one of the most thoughtful and vocal chroniclers- | 5,455 |
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... | ...of the problems of the earn it act. and so, she is here to explain this whole mess to us. welcome to the program. | 5,456 |
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... | [inaudible 00:00:44] so, let's start with maybe a high level summary of what are your concerns with the latest version of the bill? | 5,457 |
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... | [inaudible 00:00:54] ... free speech on the internet in much the same way as the controversial sesta/fosta law from 2018 was and continues to be... | 5,458 |
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... | [inaudible 00:01:05], and that it just strips immunity under section 230 for csam offenses, full stop. and it's akin to this long line of bills that are aimed at- | 5,459 |
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... | for having me, i could sit and talk to you forever about this stuff | 5,469 |
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... | yes, yes, yes. and it is great to talk to you | 5,470 |
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... | have you back on the podcast more often, we should | 5,471 |
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... | hello and welcome to the techdirt podcast. i'm mike masnick | 5,473 |
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... | [inaudible 00:01:33] mentioned in there that, the way you deal with that often is transparency and | 5,498 |
MSP-PODCAST_2392_0595.wav | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 3 | 4 | N | 480 | Male | MSP-PODCAST_2392_0595.wav | 0 | 5,500 | [
{
"feats": [
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... | and choice, frankly, right? i mean, letting people know what is happening and why and how it's being used and for how long is it | 5,499 |
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