
P&G’s Gillette Sues Dollar Shave Club - italophil
http://www.wsj.com/articles/p-gs-gillette-sues-dollar-shave-club-1450371180
======
tristor
I find the claims that P&G makes to be interesting, because unless something
has changed, Dollar Shave Club does not actually produce or manufacture under
license any of its own products, rather the service is about the delivery and
cost mechanism, not the actual product received.  Instead, they use products
made by Dorco, a South Korean company,
[http://www.dorcousa.com/](http://www.dorcousa.com/). 

The 4X, for instance is the same as the Dorco Pace 4 blade system, including
compatibility between the cartridges/handles.  I think Dollar Shave Club may
provide unique handles, but the razor blade cartridges themselves are made by
Dorco. 

~~~
cfcef
> rather the service is about the delivery and cost mechanism, not the actual
> product received. 

Presumably they are purchasing the razor blades from Dorco and importing them. 

[http://www.uspto.gov/patents-maintaining-patent/patent-
litig...](http://www.uspto.gov/patents-maintaining-patent/patent-
litigation/about-patent-infringement)

> Patent infringement is the act of making, using, selling, or offering to
> sell a patented invention, or _importing into the United States_ a product
> covered by a claim of a patent without the permission of the patent owner. 
> Further, you may be considered to infringe a patent if you import items into
> the United States that are made by a patented method, unless the item is
> materially changed by subsequent processes or becomes a trivial and
> nonessential component of another product.  A person “infringes” a patent by
> practicing each element of a patent claim with respect to one of these acts. 
> Further, actively encouraging others to infringe patents, or supplying or
> importing components of a patented invention, and related acts can also give
> rise to liability in certain cases. 

(If you think about it, of course importing is infringement.  Otherwise,
patents are worthless: anything patented would simply be made overseas, if
they aren't already.) 

~~~
Someone1234
You can buy directly from Dorco in the US. 

~~~
pc86
Serious question: Does this do anything to lessen the infringement claim
against DSC? 

~~~
lbotos
PG sues DSC for using Dorco.  Dorco is available directly in the states.  Why
doesn't PG sue Dorco? 

(I didn't read the article, but that's the point I think GP was trying to
make.) 

~~~
pc86
I agree, and I think it's obvious that PG is only interested in using this as
a means to damage DSC.  I was asking if DSC could potentially use this as a
defense in court, e.g. arguing that PG has a duty to go after Dorco first or
at least simultaneously. 

Edit: To which PG would probably argue that DSC is the largest distributor of
the infringing blades and represents the greatest infringement overall. 

------
Someone1234
It is extremely telling that Gillette is suing Dollar Shave Club, a direct
competitor, rather than Dorco the actual manufacturer of the blades
themselves. 

DSC is actually just a blade reseller, so suing them for patent infringement
seems odd.  Until you consider that this whole lawsuit may be part of a larger
drive to either push DSC out of business or buy them out of business, in
either case the cost of the lawsuit will contribute. 

PS - As an aside I don't think Dorco's blades are as good as Gillette's blades
yet.  However I highly welcome a more competitive landscape in the cartridge
blade market. 

~~~
rtkwe
If Dorco is manufacturing out side of the US or anywhere that P&G's patent is
valid and not selling them into a valid country P&G can't really sue Dorco.  At
that point Dorco isn't violating anything it's the company that imports them
that is the first point something is really being violated. 

edit: typo and pronoun vagueness. 

~~~
Someone1234
But Dorco sell them in the US[0]. 

[0] [http://www.dorcousa.com/](http://www.dorcousa.com/)

~~~
mattthebaker
It says on that site they are only a distributor.  They probably aren't moving
enough units for Gillette to care about them.  DSC on the other hand...

~~~
scott_karana
No, you can order directly from Dorco USA and get their razors shipped to your
door.  I've done it, and the single price points and "add to cart" buttons
should make that clear too. :) 

"Distributor" might be a mistranslation or imprecisely phrased. 

~~~
codazoda
OR "Dorco USA" is a small US based distributor that licenses their name from
the other company and imports Dorco razors and sells them.  Might even be owned
by Dorco but is likely not Dorco. 

~~~
scott_karana
That's true.  And they'd still be able to get sued just like DSC if that's the
case. 

------
reitanqild
Tangentially related: I moved to old fashioned razor blades a few months ago
and have actually hurt myself less since then. 

Bonus: It cost like a fraction of the price and you don't look like a teenager
when shaving :-P

~~~
Someone1234
I assume by "old fashioned" you mean a safety razor, not a straight razor. 

Safety razors are indeniably cheaper long term (although expect to pay $100
ish to get a good handle, brush, bowl, blades, and soap).  You'll likely break
even after ten years (assuming $1.50 cartridges Vs.  10c blades).  You'll also
likely receive a closer shave with a safety razor. 

That being said... I did the whole safety razor thing.  It was fun.  But then I
switched back to cartridges.  Why?  In order to get a good close shave with a
safety razor while also minimizing the chance of nicks, cuts, and razor burn
you need a good quality thick lather. 

Unfortunately creating a good thick lather can easily take ten minutes.  You
cannot really use off the shelf shaving foam or gel because it doesn't provide
enough protection for a safety razor. 

So ultimately I decided I wanted shaving to be a 10 minute activity in the
mornings, and not a 20 minute activity.  Also creating lather isn't the most
fun thing to do first thing after you wake up, in particular if you're working
it hard (as you should). 

Cartridges are quick and easy.  They're the ultimate lazy man's solution.  And
you can use off the shelf non-foaming gels (e.g. "King of Shaves Alphagel",
"Gillette Fusion ProGlide Clear Shave Gel") in the shower (and, yes, wet-
shaves are a must either way, buy an inexpensive non-electrical anti-
condensation travel mirror (i.e. you tip hot water into a compartment behind
the mirror)). 

~~~
manyxcxi
I guess I'm lucky that my skin must not be very sensitive... I use a
moderately priced safety razor handle ~$40-50 4 or 5 years ago and store brand
menthol shaving foam.  Old school Barbasol type foam.  I rarely ever get ingrown
hairs and have never had razor burn.  What I did do, though, was basically buy
one of every brand of blade that was available on Amazon and find the one that
was the most comfortable, and now I don't deviate.  Some were truly horrific,
others were so close I couldn't tell which I liked more, but I've been using
the Astra Platinum for the better part of 5 years now.  I guarantee I've spent
less than $200 in 5 years on shaving, when I was spending at least $20/mo on
cartridges.  The only time I use anything else is when I travel, I shave real
good right before I leave and just bring a couple terrible disposables. 

~~~
numo16
> What I did do, though, was basically buy one of every brand of blade that
> was available on Amazon

For those interested, there is a service for this very thing now:
[http://www.tryablade.com/blade](http://www.tryablade.com/blade)

~~~
cobrabyte
These guys rock.  I tried all sorts of blades from them before settling on the
Gillette Silver Blue.  Really good stuff! 

------
sauere
Classic "butthurt giant is mad at new competition and sues them to death"
move. 

Subscribing to DSC today, wanted to do that a long time ago anyway. 

~~~
burnte
I used DSC and regretted it, the razors are quite weak.  I tried Harry's and
was quite happy in the end.  Much higher quality. 

~~~
mistermann
What is the pricing like on Harry's? 

Do they have any razors that you tend to hold more perpendicular to your face
like the older 2-blade Gillette razors, rather than the 3+ blade razors that
you tend to hold parallel to your face? 

~~~
Shank
$1.88/cartridge, 4 blades on each cartridge

They're somewhat flexible, so you could probably do either approach (I tend to
vary and just remove all hair).  I like Harry's quite a bit. 

------
swang
Anyone shed some light on whether there is any validity, or is it just
Gillette trying to scare DSC and their customers? 

~~~
marme
it is valid but it is just being used to run them out of business.  The actual
patent violator is Dorco but they are a foreign company and it would be
pointless to sue them.  Dollar shave club is merely importing patent infringing
razors into the US.  But patent law allows you to sue anyone who imports patent
infringing materials which makes sense because it can be hard to identify the
factory doing the patent infringing but the importer is easy to identify but
in this case it is clear who the manufacturer is but it is more useful to sue
their competitor than to go after the factory

~~~
commenter1239
But Dorco sell them in the US[0]. [ 0]
[http://www.dorcousa.com/](http://www.dorcousa.com/)

------
adoming3
I find it slightly amusing when journalists call companies like Dollar Shave
Club an "upstart".  It paints this picture that they're this small scrappy
startup when in fact they've raised $163M, founded in 2011 and air prime time
commercials.  But as compared to P&G's market cap of $220B, I get it, they're
small potatoes. 

------
blueatlas
I use two blades to shave - start with a "quality" blade (not Gillette) and
finish with a cheaper disposable.  It extends the life of both and gives me a
very clean shave.  I estimate that it's cut my blade costs in half since
ditching Gillette.  Oh, and don't forget the inexpensive Barbasol. 

~~~
hughes
Have you ever tried using a safety razor?  The blades cost pennies.  I also find
I get substantially less razor burn.  Switching to shaving soap instead of
aerosol cream keeps my total shaving cost to <$10/year. 

------
freddref
I hadn't heard of DSC before and wish it was available in Europe.  Would be
interested to know how much of a streisand effect they are experiencing.  And
given the season that's in it, a year's subscription to this would make a
handy gift. 

------
iamleppert
All of this would be moot if people would just grow a beard and discover all
the awesomeness that comes with it!  Most of all you don't have to shave
anymore! 

~~~
Nadya
Until some beard oil company finds a way to sue Dollar Beard Club. ;) 

[https://www.dollarbeardclub.com/](https://www.dollarbeardclub.com/)

~~~
ripberge
Wouldn't be surprised if Dollar Shave Club brings some legal action against
Dollar Beard Club. 

They have copied them to such a degree with their name and their advertising
it is creating confusion in the marketplace.  And that's kind of a litmus test
for trademark infringement from what I remember in my business law classes. 

~~~
czinck
Wow, I assumed until your comment they were the same company.  Kind of like how
Enterprise has (or had) both rent-a-car and rent-a-van for moving, a slight
tweak to the actual deliverable but same infrastructure/whatever, I assumed
DSC owned DBC. 

------
whoopdedo
But I thought DSC didn't make the razors?  I buy them direct from Korea under
the Pace brand name. 

~~~
rtkwe
USPTO:

> Patent infringement is the act of making, using, selling, or offering to
> sell a patented invention, or importing into the United States a product
> covered by a claim of a patent without the permission of the patent owner. 
> Further, you may be considered to infringe a patent if you import items into
> the United States that are made by a patented method, unless the item is
> materially changed by subsequent processes or becomes a trivial and
> nonessential component of another product.  A person “infringes” a patent by
> practicing each element of a patent claim with respect to one of these acts. 
> Further, actively encouraging others to infringe patents, or supplying or
> importing components of a patented invention, and related acts can also give
> rise to liability in certain cases. 

If the P&G patent isn't valid where the blades are manufactured the
manufacturer isn't in violation.  It falls down to whoever is importing them. 
If they could sue the manufacturer then getting patents in one place would
make them defacto valid everywhere and punish companies for the actions of
their customers who they have no control over. 

------
philosoft
This is all crazy considering how well a double-edged safety razor works. 
Cheap and efficient. 

------
wahsd
Does anyone know where the complaint is or at least the specific patents?  I
guess they are claiming infringement against a method to coat the blades
somehow to improve shaving? 

Why do I have a feeling this will be another one of those cases that expose
just how corrupt and broken our patent system is. 

~~~
mikeash
I get the opposite impression.  From the brief description in the article, this
sounds like it might be a good patent.  But I too would be interested in seeing
just what the patent is. 

------
madengr
Shave?  I thought this was hacker news, not brogrammer news.  So much for
neckbeards. 

------
hnrodey
Non pay wall: [http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2015/12/17/gillette-
sues...](http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2015/12/17/gillette-sues-dollar-
shave-club-for-patent-infringement/WCl1FrIZjCb093OBWUCZhL/story.html)

~~~
adamc
Or just google the article title and come in through google.  Then you can see
the whole thing. 

~~~
JshWright
Or just click the 'web' link under the title at the top of this page. 

------
noja
For momentarily confused people like me: not P&T's _J_ illette.