We are still born into original sin.  Baptism cleanses us of it.  Of course, that doesn't solve the problem of the Theotokos being born into sin and God the Son needing a spotless vessel with which to enter the world, hence the necessity of the Immaculate Conception. 

I thought you all were into denying necessity as the basis for the IC.  Change yet again. 

The Theotokos being born into sin is a nonexistent problem, as Christ was to become sin for us and so had no "necessity" for the IC. 

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more. A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood. If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I thought you all were into denying necessity as the basis for the IC.  Change yet again. 

No, the part we deny (and rightfully so) is that Mary needed to be without sin in order for Christ to be.  That is what some people falsely think we believe.  We believe Mary was immaculately conceived and remained sinless to be a perfect vessel to house the Messiah.  After all, God could just as easily make God the Son Incarnate immaculately conceived, so Mary's sinlessness had nothing to do with Christ's sinlessness. 

The Vatican holds the orders of deacon, priest and bishop in the priesthood ("Holy Orders") and attributes charisms to each.  She does not attribute any charism to various offices of Archbishop, Patriarch, Metropolitan, Catholicos etc. ( in that, its ecclesiology resembles Orthodox ecclesiology) (I would add "Pope," the title which orginated with the Patriarch of Alexandria, but the Vatican forbids any other hierarch from holding that title, so those who submit to it at Alexandria.  Another aberration of ecclesiology).  Only for the office of the papacy does it claim a charism (infallibility, supremacy, etc.),  a total disconnect from the rest of even its own ecclesiology: you wouldn't claim a priest could become a bishop by accepting election without consecration nor three priests consecrating a fourth a bishop.  Yet you claim your head of the episcopate takes his positin just that way. 

Since we believe that St. Peter had a special (Christ appointed) role in the Church we likewise believe that that office would not go away after the death of St. Peter.  The Bishop of Rome possesses more authority than the other Bishops precisely because he is the Bishop of Rome.  That does not mean he ceases to be a Bishop once he becomes Pope or that there is another level of the Sacrament of Holy Orders which is above Bishop; it just means that, being that he is the Bishop of Rome, his job description just got a lot bigger. 

A bishop is not a priest with a bigger job description anymore than a priest is a deacon with a bigger job description.  So your model won't work for your supreme pontiff and font of unity, not to mention it leaves the problem that the Patriarch of Antioch sits on St. Peter's throne, as do (as St. Cyprian stated) every Orthodox bishop.  For infallibility, the power to call and confirm Ecumenical councils etc.  you would need another level of the sacrament of Holy Orders above bishop.  That you do not (nor did the ancient Church) should tell you something. 

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more. A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood. If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I thought you all were into denying necessity as the basis for the IC.  Change yet again. 

No, the part we deny (and rightfully so) is that Mary needed to be without sin in order for Christ to be.  That is what some people falsely think we believe.  We believe Mary was immaculately conceived and remained sinless to be a perfect vessel to house the Messiah.  After all, God could just as easily make God the Son Incarnate immaculately conceived, so Mary's sinlessness had nothing to do with Christ's sinlessness. 

We are still born into original sin.  Baptism cleanses us of it.  Of course, that doesn't solve the problem of the Theotokos being born into sin and God the Son needing a spotless vessel with which to enter the world, hence the necessity of the Immaculate Conception. 

The Theotokos being born into sin is a nonexistent problem, as Christ was to become sin for us and so had no "necessity" for the IC. 

See above. 

Ditto

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more. A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood. If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

A bishop is not a priest with a bigger job description anymore than a priest is a deacon with a bigger job description. 

Well of course not.  Why?  Because the diaconate is a level of holy orders, the presbyteriate is a level of holy orders, the episcopate is a level of holy orders, but the Papacy is an office.  I thought we were all clear on that. 

So your model won't work for your supreme pontiff and font of unity, not to mention it leaves the problem that the Patriarch of Antioch sits on St. Peter's throne, as do (as St. Cyprian stated) every Orthodox bishop.  For infallibility, the power to call and confirm Ecumenical councils etc.  you would need another level of the sacrament of Holy Orders above bishop.  That you do not (nor did the ancient Church) should tell you something. 

I thought you all were into denying necessity as the basis for the IC.  Change yet again. 

No, the part we deny (and rightfully so) is that Mary needed to be without sin in order for Christ to be.  That is what some people falsely think we believe.  We believe Mary was immaculately conceived and remained sinless to be a perfect vessel to house the Messiah.  After all, God could just as easily make God the Son Incarnate immaculately conceived, so Mary's sinlessness had nothing to do with Christ's sinlessness. 

We are still born into original sin.  Baptism cleanses us of it.  Of course, that doesn't solve the problem of the Theotokos being born into sin and God the Son needing a spotless vessel with which to enter the world, hence the necessity of the Immaculate Conception. 

The Theotokos being born into sin is a nonexistent problem, as Christ was to become sin for us and so had no "necessity" for the IC. 

See above. 

Ditto

Reread what I said because clearly you are assuming a meaning into the text that isn't there.  I said that Christ needed a perfect vessel with which to enter the world.  I never said why He needed a perfect vessel.  Ialmisry assumed I meant because if she wasn't sinless, God the Son would have inherited original sin, but that isn't what I meant at all.  Christ needed to have a perfect vessel for the sake of having a perfect vessel.  You know, Mary as the New Eve, the new Ark of the Covenant, etc. ( not sure of the Eastern Orthodox have those views of Mary or not). 

A bishop is not a priest with a bigger job description anymore than a priest is a deacon with a bigger job description. 

Well of course not.  Why?  Because the diaconate is a level of holy orders, the presbyteriate is a level of holy orders, the episcopate is a level of holy orders, but the Papacy is an office.  I thought we were all clear on that. 

Yes, you are claiming for an office a super level of holy orders.  That's quite clear. 

So your model won't work for your supreme pontiff and font of unity, not to mention it leaves the problem that the Patriarch of Antioch sits on St. Peter's throne, as do (as St. Cyprian stated) every Orthodox bishop.  For infallibility, the power to call and confirm Ecumenical councils etc.  you would need another level of the sacrament of Holy Orders above bishop.  That you do not (nor did the ancient Church) should tell you something. 

I thought you all were into denying necessity as the basis for the IC.  Change yet again. 

No, the part we deny (and rightfully so) is that Mary needed to be without sin in order for Christ to be.  That is what some people falsely think we believe.  We believe Mary was immaculately conceived and remained sinless to be a perfect vessel to house the Messiah.  After all, God could just as easily make God the Son Incarnate immaculately conceived, so Mary's sinlessness had nothing to do with Christ's sinlessness. 

We are still born into original sin.  Baptism cleanses us of it.  Of course, that doesn't solve the problem of the Theotokos being born into sin and God the Son needing a spotless vessel with which to enter the world, hence the necessity of the Immaculate Conception. 

Ialmisry assumed I meant because if she wasn't sinless, God the Son would have inherited original sin, but that isn't what I meant at all.  Christ needed to have a perfect vessel for the sake of having a perfect vessel. 

You know, Mary as the New Eve, the new Ark of the Covenant, etc. ( not sure of the Eastern Orthodox have those views of Mary or not). 

We do, and never had the need for the IC. 

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more. A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood. If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

God cannot be in the presence of sin, hence the fact that we need to be purified before we can be in the presence of the Beatific Vision...although I don't know how much of that you believe as an Eastern Orthodox. 

This might be a little off topic, but I'm curious as to whether Popes are ordained by the laying on of hands. 

I know they're elected by the college of Cardnals, I think the Cardnals are all ordained Bishops, and I think the selected Pope is usually a Cardnal--but is the new Pope actually ordained to his office by the Cardnals? 

No, which is one of the chief reasons to reject the non-existent order of "papacy."  Only the highest order of bishop can ordain the lesser orders of priest and deacon, and chrismate.  Since the Vatican believes the pope is above the bishops, it would mean the inferior would be consecrating the superior.  No charism of the priesthood is given except in a Holy Mystery/Sacrament, and the Vatican doesn't even claim the existent of a Holy Mystery/Sacrament of consecrating a pope. 

A non-bishop can be elected pope under the present rules, but he must be consecrated a bishop before taking office.  A bishop elected becomes pope the moment he accepts his election, hence the announcement "Habemus papam." 

The Papacy is not an order. 

The Papacy is an office. 

That is exactly the problem with the claims of Vatican ecclesiology. 

The Vatican holds the orders of deacon, priest and bishop in the priesthood ("Holy Orders") and attributes charisms to each.  She does not attribute any charism to various offices of Archbishop, Patriarch, Metropolitan, Catholicos etc. ( in that, its ecclesiology resembles Orthodox ecclesiology) (I would add "Pope," the title which orginated with the Patriarch of Alexandria, but the Vatican forbids any other hierarch from holding that title, so those who submit to it at Alexandria.  Another aberration of ecclesiology).  Only for the office of the papacy does it claim a charism (infallibility, supremacy, etc.),  a total disconnect from the rest of even its own ecclesiology: you wouldn't claim a priest could become a bishop by accepting election without consecration nor three priests consecrating a fourth a bishop.  Yet you claim your head of the episcopate takes his positin just that way. 

oh, the EO habbit of trying to find problems where none exist. 

Your inconsistencies are not our problems. 

If you treated the office of the papacy like an office (like the Archbishops, Patriarchs, Catholicos, Metropolitans etc.  you have), we might have some to talk about at those talks.  But you treat it as another order: a deacon cannot "confect the Eucharist," a priest cannot ordain, a bishop cannot speak infallibly.  Deacons can't ordain a priest, priest cannot consecrate a bishop, and no number of bishops (following the principle ennuciated in Hebrews that "without contradiction, the inferior is blessed by the superior") can elevate a supreme pontiff.  Hence we have nothing to talk about when it comes to "reunion." 

LOL...that seems to be an Orthodox problem, since your people are talking to our people. 

Apparently they have not consulted you...so perhaps it really is a personal problem? 

If the Ultramontane's "petrine office" were an office, then, for instance, when your Pope John died the caretaker locum tenens could have continued Vatican II, or indeed the council itself-which you all are quick to claim are part of the "magesterium" whenever the absurdities of your "petrine office" are brought to the fore-could have continued the "collegial act' set in motion by Pope John.  But no, according to the rules they had to wait for an actual bishop of Rome.  The US Congress is fully empowered if the President is removed from office (dies, resigns etc.)  and if there is a delay from the Vice-President assuming office (e.g. if the Vice-President dies or resigned: both have happened in the past.  If, for instance, President Johnson had been impeached, there would have ensued a constitutional crisis because he had no Vice-President and there was no mechanism to replace him when he succeeded Lincoln nor if he was impeached, something the 25th Amendment wouldn't solve if Johnson didn't nominate a VP before impeachment).  That is because the Presidency is an office.  The British Parliament is not empowered after demise of the crown (death, abdication etc.  of the monarch) as the monarcy is not an office (though modern changes on the automatic dissoluton of Parliament at the death of the monarch etc.  have blurred the point here).  You, not Christ, have vested charism to office of bishop of Rome (if you want to insist that it is an office, it is no different than office of bishop of Chicago, which carries no special charism though he is usually made a cardinal-another issue, but I won't go into that right now).  Charism do not reside in abstactions like offices, they abide in persons.  You all are confused on that point as much as your Protestant siblings, who think that just starting to preach ordains one a minister. 

Read what Holy Scripture says "He made Him Who knew no sin to become sin for us." 

Christ paid the price for our sins, but do you believe that He had personal or original sin?  That would be heretical. 

The IC is heretical.  No, He had neither personal nor original sin, but that is besides the point (and His paying the price for our sins as well).  The God Who made Himself Who knew no sin to become sin for us had no need, nor was it fitting, that He have a mother untouched by sin.  That she was born into ancestral sin is required by the Orthodox dogma of the Catholic Church.  That she had no actual sin is not required by Orthodox dogma, but the Catholic Church has held that belief, based on our experience of her. 

God cannot be in the presence of sin, hence the fact that we need to be purified before we can be in the presence of the Beatific Vision...although I don't know how much of that you believe as an Eastern Orthodox. 

He descended into Hell.  Plenty of sin there.  His mother's womb presents no problem. 

This isn't dinner options we are talking about here.  We are talking about the Faith. 

Not the Orthodox Faith. 

Your "doctors" are the ones who claimed He could do it, He should do it, therefore He did it.  You yourself claim some problem needed a solution.  There was no problem, hence no needed solution, no necessity of the IC. 

The Faith isn't broken, so your "magisterium" should stop trying to fix it. 

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more. A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood. If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

This might be a little off topic, but I'm curious as to whether Popes are ordained by the laying on of hands. 

I know they're elected by the college of Cardnals, I think the Cardnals are all ordained Bishops, and I think the selected Pope is usually a Cardnal--but is the new Pope actually ordained to his office by the Cardnals? 

No, which is one of the chief reasons to reject the non-existent order of "papacy."  Only the highest order of bishop can ordain the lesser orders of priest and deacon, and chrismate.  Since the Vatican believes the pope is above the bishops, it would mean the inferior would be consecrating the superior.  No charism of the priesthood is given except in a Holy Mystery/Sacrament, and the Vatican doesn't even claim the existent of a Holy Mystery/Sacrament of consecrating a pope. 

A non-bishop can be elected pope under the present rules, but he must be consecrated a bishop before taking office.  A bishop elected becomes pope the moment he accepts his election, hence the announcement "Habemus papam." 

The Papacy is not an order. 

The Papacy is an office. 

That is exactly the problem with the claims of Vatican ecclesiology. 

The Vatican holds the orders of deacon, priest and bishop in the priesthood ("Holy Orders") and attributes charisms to each.  She does not attribute any charism to various offices of Archbishop, Patriarch, Metropolitan, Catholicos etc. ( in that, its ecclesiology resembles Orthodox ecclesiology) (I would add "Pope," the title which orginated with the Patriarch of Alexandria, but the Vatican forbids any other hierarch from holding that title, so those who submit to it at Alexandria.  Another aberration of ecclesiology).  Only for the office of the papacy does it claim a charism (infallibility, supremacy, etc.),  a total disconnect from the rest of even its own ecclesiology: you wouldn't claim a priest could become a bishop by accepting election without consecration nor three priests consecrating a fourth a bishop.  Yet you claim your head of the episcopate takes his positin just that way. 

oh, the EO habbit of trying to find problems where none exist. 

Your inconsistencies are not our problems. 

If you treated the office of the papacy like an office (like the Archbishops, Patriarchs, Catholicos, Metropolitans etc.  you have), we might have some to talk about at those talks.  But you treat it as another order: a deacon cannot "confect the Eucharist," a priest cannot ordain, a bishop cannot speak infallibly.  Deacons can't ordain a priest, priest cannot consecrate a bishop, and no number of bishops (following the principle ennuciated in Hebrews that "without contradiction, the inferior is blessed by the superior") can elevate a supreme pontiff.  Hence we have nothing to talk about when it comes to "reunion." 

LOL...that seems to be an Orthodox problem, since your people are talking to our people. 

Yes:how have those talks been coming along lately? 

Quote

Apparently they have not consulted you...so perhaps it really is a personal problem? 

Hardly.  They didn't consult the Faithful when they submitted to the Emperor's orders to go to Florence.  We gavre our repsonse when they tried to return. 

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more. A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood. If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches.  Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is.  Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." -  St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14. 

No, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which is made up of shepherds and sheep under the Good Shepherd, not wolves and lemmings and the cliff overlooking the Abyss. 

The gymnastics of apologetics for the Vatican have shown that its magisterium is a useless concept. 

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more. A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood. If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

No, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which is made up of shepherds and sheep under the Good Shepherd, not wolves and lemmings and the cliff overlooking the Abyss. 

The gymnastics of apologetics for the Vatican have shown that its magisterium is a useless concept. 

I've been passionately Catholic for three years now and I have not seen anything wrong with our apologetics. 

A fish spends its whole life not knowing it is wet. 

Passionately Catholic?  Since when have you professed the Orthodox Faith? 

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more. A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood. If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

No, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which is made up of shepherds and sheep under the Good Shepherd, not wolves and lemmings and the cliff overlooking the Abyss. 

The gymnastics of apologetics for the Vatican have shown that its magisterium is a useless concept. 

I've been passionately Catholic for three years now and I have not seen anything wrong with our apologetics. 

A fish spends its whole life not knowing it is wet. 

Passionately Catholic?  Since when have you professed the Orthodox Faith? 

Probably since he came into cummion with Rome. 

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches.  Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is.  Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." -  St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14. 

No, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which is made up of shepherds and sheep under the Good Shepherd, not wolves and lemmings and the cliff overlooking the Abyss. 

The gymnastics of apologetics for the Vatican have shown that its magisterium is a useless concept. 

How can the Vatican need apologetics?  It's a City-State in Italy. 

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches.  Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is.  Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." -  St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14. 

This might be a little off topic, but I'm curious as to whether Popes are ordained by the laying on of hands. 

I know they're elected by the college of Cardnals, I think the Cardnals are all ordained Bishops, and I think the selected Pope is usually a Cardnal--but is the new Pope actually ordained to his office by the Cardnals? 

No, which is one of the chief reasons to reject the non-existent order of "papacy."  Only the highest order of bishop can ordain the lesser orders of priest and deacon, and chrismate.  Since the Vatican believes the pope is above the bishops, it would mean the inferior would be consecrating the superior.  No charism of the priesthood is given except in a Holy Mystery/Sacrament, and the Vatican doesn't even claim the existent of a Holy Mystery/Sacrament of consecrating a pope. 

A non-bishop can be elected pope under the present rules, but he must be consecrated a bishop before taking office.  A bishop elected becomes pope the moment he accepts his election, hence the announcement "Habemus papam." 

The Papacy is not an order. 

The Papacy is an office. 

That is exactly the problem with the claims of Vatican ecclesiology. 

The Vatican holds the orders of deacon, priest and bishop in the priesthood ("Holy Orders") and attributes charisms to each.  She does not attribute any charism to various offices of Archbishop, Patriarch, Metropolitan, Catholicos etc. ( in that, its ecclesiology resembles Orthodox ecclesiology) (I would add "Pope," the title which orginated with the Patriarch of Alexandria, but the Vatican forbids any other hierarch from holding that title, so those who submit to it at Alexandria.  Another aberration of ecclesiology).  Only for the office of the papacy does it claim a charism (infallibility, supremacy, etc.),  a total disconnect from the rest of even its own ecclesiology: you wouldn't claim a priest could become a bishop by accepting election without consecration nor three priests consecrating a fourth a bishop.  Yet you claim your head of the episcopate takes his positin just that way. 

oh, the EO habbit of trying to find problems where none exist. 

Your inconsistencies are not our problems. 

If you treated the office of the papacy like an office (like the Archbishops, Patriarchs, Catholicos, Metropolitans etc.  you have), we might have some to talk about at those talks.  But you treat it as another order: a deacon cannot "confect the Eucharist," a priest cannot ordain, a bishop cannot speak infallibly.  Deacons can't ordain a priest, priest cannot consecrate a bishop, and no number of bishops (following the principle ennuciated in Hebrews that "without contradiction, the inferior is blessed by the superior") can elevate a supreme pontiff.  Hence we have nothing to talk about when it comes to "reunion." 

LOL...that seems to be an Orthodox problem, since your people are talking to our people. 

Yes:how have those talks been coming along lately? 

Quote

Apparently they have not consulted you...so perhaps it really is a personal problem? 

Hardly.  They didn't consult the Faithful when they submitted to the Emperor's orders to go to Florence.  We gavre our repsonse when they tried to return. 

There is a documentary record of anti-unionists strong-arming the population to speak out against union.  It is an historical record that is not readily available to English speakers from the United States but it exists and it is not a record that looks much like the working of the Holy Spirit. 

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more. A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood. If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

How can some one be in communion with The Vatican?  The Vatican is a City-State in Italy.  It's impossible to be in communion with the Vatican.  You must be confused. 

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches.  Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is.  Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." -  St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14. 

No, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which is made up of shepherds and sheep under the Good Shepherd, not wolves and lemmings and the cliff overlooking the Abyss. 

The gymnastics of apologetics for the Vatican have shown that its magisterium is a useless concept. 

How can the Vatican need apologetics?  It's a City-State in Italy. 

Because it's a sorry state. 

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more. A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood. If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

You see, according to your comment, they even believe that Vatican city is able to stamp things and make requests:

Quote

Before the Ordination Mass began, the Holy See's approval was publicly announced, which was not the first time the Vatican has given its stamp of approval for the ordination of an Association bishop.  But it was the first time that the ordaining bishops were all in legitimate communion with the Holy See, at the Vatican's specific request.http://www.catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=12896

And on a preemptive reply:

No Papist, this has nothing to do to what RCs believe. 

« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 05:40:08 PM by Fabio Leite »

Logged

Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup.  The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other.  The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son.  The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today. 

There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. -  Saint Aloysius Gonzaga

You see, according to your comment, they even believe that Vatican city is able to stamp things and make requests:

Quote

Before the Ordination Mass began, the Holy See's approval was publicly announced, which was not the first time the Vatican has given its stamp of approval for the ordination of an Association bishop.  But it was the first time that the ordaining bishops were all in legitimate communion with the Holy See, at the Vatican's specific request.http://www.catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=12896

And on a preemptive reply:

No Papist, this has nothing to do to what RCs believe. 

The the articles are careless.  So what? 

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches.  Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is.  Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." -  St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14. 

How can one be the sovereign of a state on the basis of the claim of acting as vicar of Him Who said "My Kingdom is not of this world?"  Sort of like how the communist party ruled the Soviet state like a hand in a glove.  Your supreme pontiffs (what's a bishop of Christ's Church doing holding the office of pagan high priest of the Roman state, an office founded by the Roman kings?)  have some interesting ideas, which they evidently picked up when St. Constantine donated (LOL) the papal state:

The Vatican lost no time in profitting from it.  The same Pope Innocent (what a misnomer!)  III called a "ecumenical" council to "legitimize" the spoils.  Imposing a Latin Patriarchate on Constantinople, he finally formally accepted Constantinople as a Patriarchate and in second place, after it had moved to first place, due to Rome's apostasy.  The Vatican convened its so called 12th "Ecumenical" council of Lateran IV-which it has not repudiated-which stated:

Quote

3.  On Heretics

We excommunicate and anathematize every heresy raising itself up against this holy, orthodox and catholic faith which we have expounded above [the Ultramontanist filioque faith].  We condemn all heretics, whatever names they may go under.  They have different faces indeed but their tails are tied together inasmuch as they are alike in their pride.  Let those condemned be handed over to the secular authorities present, or to their bailiffs, for due punishment.  Clerics are first to be degraded from their orders.  The goods of the condemned are to be confiscated, if they are lay persons, and if clerics they are to be applied to the churches from which they received their stipends.  Those who are only found suspect of heresy are to be struck with the sword of anathema, unless they prove their innocence by an appropriate purgation, having regard to the reasons for suspicion and the character of the person.  Let such persons be avoided by all until they have made adequate satisfaction.  If they persist in the excommunication for a year, they are to be condemned as heretics.  Let secular authorities, whatever offices they may be discharging, be advised and urged and if necessary be compelled by ecclesiastical censure, if they wish to be reputed and held to be faithful, to take publicly an oath for the defence of the faith to the effect that they will seek, in so far as they can, to expel from the lands subject to their jurisdiction all heretics designated by the church in good faith.  Thus whenever anyone is promoted to spiritual or temporal authority, he shall be obliged to confirm this article with an oath.  If however a temporal lord, required and instructed by the church, neglects to cleanse his territory of this heretical filth, he shall be bound with the bond of excommunication by the metropolitan and other bishops of the province.  If he refuses to give satisfaction within a year, this shall be reported to the supreme pontiff so that he may then declare his vassals absolved from their fealty to him and make the land available for occupation by Catholics so that these may, after they have expelled the heretics, possess it unopposed and preserve it in the purity of the faith — saving the right of the suzerain provided that he makes no difficulty in the matter and puts no impediment in the way.  The same law is to be observed no less as regards those who do not have a suzerain. 

Catholics who take the cross and gird themselves up for the expulsion of heretics shall enjoy the same indulgence, and be strengthened by the same holy privilege, as is granted to those who go to the aid of the holy Land.  Moreover, we determine to subject to excommunication believers who receive, defend or support heretics.  We strictly ordain that if any such person, after he has been designated as excommunicated [and remeber, the bull of 1054 so designated the Orthodox Catholics], refuses to render satisfaction within a year, then by the law itself he shall be branded as infamous and not be admitted to public offices or councils or to elect others to the same or to give testimony.  He shall be intestable, that is he shall not have the freedom to make a will nor shall succeed to an inheritance.  Moreover nobody shall be compelled to answer to him on any business whatever, but he may be compelled to answer to them.  If he is a judge sentences pronounced by him shall have no force and cases may not be brought before him; if an advocate, he may not be allowed to defend anyone; if a notary, documents drawn up by him shall be worthless and condemned along with their condemned author; and in similar matters we order the same to be observed.  If however he is a cleric, let him be deposed from every office and benefice, so that the greater the fault the greater be the punishment.  If any refuse to avoid such persons after they have been pointed out by the church, let them be punished with the sentence of excommunication until they make suitable satisfaction.  Clerics should not, of course, give the sacraments of the church to such pestilent people nor give them a Christian burial nor accept alms or offerings from them; if they do, let them be deprived of their office and not restored to it without a special indult of the apostolic see.  Similarly with regulars, let them be punished with losing their privileges in the diocese in which they presume to commit such excesses. 

"There are some who holding to the form of religion but denying its power (as the Apostle says) , claim for themselves the authority to preach, whereas the same Apostle says, How shall they preach unless they are sent?  Let therefore all those who have been forbidden or not sent to preach, and yet dare publicly or privately to usurp the office of preaching without having received the authority of the apostolic see or the catholic bishop of the place", be bound with the bond of excommunication and, unless they repent very quickly, be punished by another suitable penalty.  We add further that each archbishop or bishop, either in person or through his archdeacon or through suitable honest persons, should visit twice or at least once in the year any parish of his in which heretics are said to live.  There he should compel three or more men of good repute, or even if it seems expedient the whole neighbourhood, to swear that if anyone knows of heretics there or of any persons who hold secret conventicles or who differ in their life and habits from the normal way of living of the faithful, then he will take care to point them out to the bishop.  The bishop himself should summon the accused to his presence, and they should be punished canonically if they are unable to clear themselves of the charge or if after compurgation they relapse into their former errors of faith.  If however any of them with damnable obstinacy refuse to honour an oath and so will not take it, let them by this very fact be regarded as heretics.  We therefore will and command and, in virtue of obedience, strictly command that bishops see carefully to the effective execution of these things throughout their dioceses, if they wish to avoid canonical penalties.  If any bishop is negligent or remiss in cleansing his diocese of the ferment of heresy, then when this shows itself by unmistakeable signs he shall be deposed from his office as bishop and there shall be put in his place a suitable person who both wishes and is able to overthrow the evil of heresy

4.  On the pride of the Greeks towards the Latins

Although we would wish to cherish and honour the Greeks who in our days are returning to the obedience of the apostolic see, by preserving their customs and rites as much as we can in the Lord, nevertheless we neither want nor ought to defer to them in matters which bring danger to souls and detract from the church's honour.  For, after the Greek church together with certain associates and supporters withdrew from the obedience of the apostolic see, the Greeks began to detest the Latins so much that, among other wicked things which they committed out of contempt for them, when Latin priests celebrated on their altars they would not offer sacrifice on them until they had washed them, as if the altars had been defiled thereby.  The Greeks even had the temerity to rebaptize those baptized by the Latins; and some, as we are told, still do not fear to do this.  Wishing therefore to remove such a great scandal from God's church, we strictly order, on the advice of this sacred council, that henceforth they do not presume to do such things but rather conform themselves like obedient sons to the holy Roman church, their mother, so that there may be one flock and one shepherd.  If anyone however does dare to do such a thing, let him be struck with the sword of excommunication and be deprived of every ecclesiastical office and benefice. [ of course, the Orthodox Catholics did and continue to "dare to do such a thing."] 

5.  The dignity of the patriarchal sees

Renewing the ancient privileges of the patriarchal sees, we decree, with the approval of this sacred universal synod, that after the Roman church, which through the Lord's disposition has a primacy of ordinary power over all other churches inasmuch as it is the mother and mistress of all Christ's faithful, the church of Constantinople shall have the first place, the church of Alexandria the second place, the church of Antioch the third place, and the church of Jerusalem the fourth place, each maintaining its own rank.  Thus after their pontiffs have received from the Roman pontiff the pallium, which is the sign of the fullness of the pontifical office, and have taken an oath of fidelity and obedience to him [no such thing ever happened from the time of the Apostles until the Crudaders came] they may lawfully confer the pallium on their own suffragans, receiving from them for themselves canonical profession and for the Roman church the promise of obedience.  They may have a standard of the Lord's cross carried before them anywhere except in the city of Rome or wherever there is present the supreme pontiff or his legate wearing the insignia of the apostolic dignity.  In all the provinces subject to their jurisdiction let appeal be made to them, when it is necessary, except for appeals made to the apostolic see, to which all must humbly defer.[dream on]

71.  Crusade to recover the holy Land

It is our ardent desire to liberate the holy Land from infidel hands.  We therefore declare, with the approval of this sacred council and on the advice of prudent men who are fully aware of the circumstances of time and place, that crusaders are to make themselves ready so that all who have arranged to go by sea shall assemble in the kingdom of Sicily on 1 June after next : some as necessary and fitting at Brindisi and others at Messina and places neighbouring it on either side, where we too have arranged to be in person at that time, God willing, so that with our advice and help the Christian army may be in good order to set out with divine and apostolic blessing.  Those who have decided to go by land should also take care to be ready by the same date.  They shall notify us meanwhile so that we may grant them a suitable legate a latere for advice and help.  Priests and other clerics who will be in the Christian army, both those under authority and prelates, shall diligently devote themselves to prayer and exhortation, teaching the crusaders by word and example to have the fear and love of God always before their eyes, so that they say or do nothing that might offend the divine majesty.  If they ever fall into sin, let them quickly rise up again through true penitence.  Let them be humble in heart and in body, keeping to moderation both in food and in dress, avoiding altogether dissensions and rivalries, and putting aside entirely any bitterness or envy, so that thus armed with spiritual and material weapons they may the more fearlessly fight against the enemies of the faith, relying not on their own power but rather trusting in the strength of God.  We grant to these clerics that they may receive the fruits of their benefices in full for three years, as if they were resident in the churches, and if necessary they may leave them in pledge for the same time. 

To prevent this holy proposal being impeded or delayed, we strictly order all prelates of churches, each in his own locality, diligently to warn and induce those who have abandoned the cross to resume it, and them and others who have taken up the cross, and those who may still do so, to carry out their vows to the Lord.  And if necessary they shall compel them to do this without any backsliding, by sentences of excommunication against their persons and of interdict on their lands, excepting only those persons who find themselves faced with an impediment of such a kind that their vow deservedly ought to be commuted or deferred in accordance with the directives of the apostolic see.  In order that nothing connected with this business of Jesus Christ be omitted, we will and order patriarchs, archbishops, bishops, abbots and others who have the care of souls to preach the cross zealously to those entrusted to them.  Let them beseech kings, dukes, princes, margraves, counts, barons and other magnates, as well as the communities of cities, vills and towns — in the name of the Father, Son and holy Spirit, the one, only, true and eternal God — that those who do not go in person to the aid of the holy Land should contribute, according to their means, an appropriate number of fighting men together with their necessary expenses for three years, for the remission of their sins in accordance with what has already been explained in general letters and will be explained below for still greater assurance.  We wish to share in this remission not only those who contribute ships of their own but also those who are zealous enough to build them for this purpose.  To those who refuse, if there happen to be any who are so ungrateful to our lord God, we firmly declare in the name of the apostle that they should know that they will have to answer to us for this on the last day of final judgment before the fearful judge. 

In other words, THE SWORD THAT ST.  PETER PUT INTO THE SHEATH AT THE LORD'S COMMAND, POPE INNOCENT III ON HIS OWN COMMAND PICKED UP AND SWUNG, AND SWUNG HARD. 

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Let them consider beforehand, however with what conscience and with what security it was that they were able to confess before the only-begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ, to whom the Father gave all things into his hands, if in this business, which is as it were peculiarly his, they refuse to serve him who was crucified for sinners, by whose beneficence they are sustained and indeed by whose blood they have been redeemed. 

Lest we appear to be laying on men's shoulders heavy and unbearable burdens which we are not willing to lighten, like those who say yes but do nothing behold we, from what we have been able to save over and above necessities and moderate expenses, grant and give thirty thousand pounds to this work, besides the shipping which we are giving to the crusaders of Rome and neighbouring districts.  We will assign for this purpose, moreover, three thousand marks of silver, which we have left over from the alms of certain of the faithful, the rest having been faithfully distributed for the needs and benefit of the aforesaid Land by the hands of the abbot patriarch of Jerusalem, of happy memory, and of the masters of the Temple and of the Hospital.  We wish, however, that other prelates of churches and all clerics may participate and share both in the merit and in the reward.  We therefore decree, with the general approval of the council, that all clerics, both those under authority and prelates, shall give a twentieth of their ecclesiastical revenues for three years to the aid of the holy Land, by means of the persons appointed by the apostolic see for this purpose; the only exceptions being certain religious who are rightly to be exempted from this taxation and likewise those persons who have taken or will take the cross and so will go in person.  We and our brothers, cardinals of the holy Roman church, shall pay a full tenth.  Let all know, moreover, that they are obliged to observe this faithfully under pain of excommunication, so that those who knowingly deceive in this matter shall incur the sentence of excommunication.  Because it is right that those who persevere in the service of the heavenly ruler should in all justice enjoy special privilege, and because the day of departure is somewhat more than a year ahead, crusaders shall therefore be.  exempt from taxes or levies and other burdens.  We take their persons and goods under the protection of St Peter and ourself once they have taken up the cross.  We ordain that they are to be protected by archbishops, bishops and all prelates of the church, and that protectors of their own are to be specially appointed for this purpose, so that their goods are to remain intact and undisturbed until they are known for certain to be dead or to have returned.  If anyone dares to act contrary to this, let him be curbed by ecclesiastical censure. 

If any of those setting out are bound by oath to pay interest, we ordain that their creditors shall be compelled by the same punishment to release them from their oath and to desist from exacting the interest; if any of the creditors does force them to pay the interest, we command that he be forced by similar punishment to restore it.  We order that Jews be compelled by the secular power to remit interest, and that until they do so all intercourse shall be denied them by all Christ's faithful under pain of excommunication.  Secular princes shall provide a suitable deferral for those who cannot now pay their debts to Jews, so that after they have undertaken the journey and until there is certain knowledge of their death or of their return, they shall not incur the inconvenience of paying interest.  The Jews shall be compelled to add to the capital, after they have deducted their necessary expenses, the revenues which they are meanwhile receiving from property held by them on security.  For, such a benefit seems to entail not much loss, inasmuch as it postpones the repayment but does not cancel the debt.  Prelates of churches who are negligent in showing justice to crusaders and their families should know that they will be severely punished. 

Furthermore, since corsairs and pirates greatly impede help for the holy Land, by capturing and plundering those who are travelling to and from it, we bind with the bond of excommunication everyone who helps or supports them.  We forbid anyone, under threat of anathema, knowingly to communicate with them by contracting to buy or to sell; and we order rulers of cities and their territories to restrain and curb such persons from this iniquity.  Otherwise, since to be unwilling to disquiet evildoers is none other than to encourage them, and since he who fails to oppose a manifest crime is not without a touch of secret complicity, it is our wish and command that prelates of churches exercise ecclesiastical severity against their persons and lands.  We excommunicate and anathematize, moreover, those false and impious Christians who, in opposition to Christ and the Christian people, convey arms to the Saracens and iron and timber for their galleys.  We decree that those who sell them galleys or ships, and those who act as pilots in pirate Saracen ships, or give them any advice or help by way of machines or anything else, to the detriment of the holy Land, are to be punished with deprivation of their possessions and are to become the slaves of those who capture them.  We order this sentence to be renewed on Sundays and feast-days in all maritime towns; and the bosom of the church is not to be opened to such persons unless they send in aid of the holy Land the whole of the damnable wealth which they received and the same amount of their own, so that they are punished in proportion to their offence.  If perchance they do not pay, they are to be punished in other ways in order that through their punishment others may be deterred from venturing upon similar rash actions.  In addition, we prohibit and on pain of anathema forbid all Christians, for four years, to send or take their ships across to the lands of the Saracens who dwell in the east, so that by this a greater supply of shipping may be made ready for those wanting to cross over to help the holy Land, and so that the aforesaid Saracens may be deprived of the not inconsiderable help which they have been accustomed to receiving from this. 

Although tournaments have been forbidden in a general way on pain of a fixed penalty at various councils, we strictly forbid them to be held for three years, under pain of excommunication, because the business of the crusade is much hindered by them at this present time.  Because it is of the utmost necessity for the carrying out of this business that rulers of the Christian people keep peace with each other, we therefore ordain, on the advice of this holy general synod, that peace be generally kept in the whole Christian world for at least four years, so that those in conflict shall be brought by the prelates of churches to conclude a definitive peace or to observe inviolably a firm truce.  Those who refuse to comply shall be most strictly compelled to do so by an excommunication against their persons and an interdict on their lands, unless their wrongdoing is so great that they ought not to enjoy peace.  If it happens that they make light of the church's censure, they may deservedly fear that the secular power will be invoked by ecclesiastical authority against them as disturbers of the business of him who was crucified. 

We therefore, trusting in the mercy of almighty God and in the authority of the blessed apostles Peter and Paul, do grant, by the power of binding and loosing that God has conferred upon us, albeit unworthy, unto all those who undertake this work in person and at their own expense, full pardon for their sins about which they are heartily contrite and have spoken in confession, and we promise them an increase of eternal life at the recompensing of the just; also to those who do not go there in person but send suitable men at their own expense, according to their means and status, and likewise to those who go in person but at others' expense, we grant full pardon for their sins.  We wish and grant to share in this remission, according to the quality of their help and the intensity of their devotion, all who shall contribute suitably from their goods to the aid of the said Land or who give useful advice and help.  Finally, this general synod imparts the benefit of its blessings to all who piously set out on this common enterprise in order that it may contribute worthily to their salvation. 

Rather than turnign from the sack of Constantinople, the Vatican then later convened its so called 13th "ecumenical" council of Lyons I, with its Latin emperor and its Latin patriarchs it imposed (Alexandria and Jerusalem, however, being outside the Crusaders reach) in session to try to solidify Crusader control when the armies of the Orthodox sovereigns laid seige to Constatinople to retake her and place the Orthodox EP in exile back on the cathedra of SS.  Andrew, Gregory Nazianzus, John Chrysostom and Photios:

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2. { 47} On help for the empire of Constantinople

Though we are engaged in difficult matters and distracted by manifold anxieties, yet among those things which demand our constant attention is the liberation of the empire of Constantinople. [ the armies of the Orthodox had surrounded the capital] This we desire with our whole heart, this is ever the object of our thoughts.  Yet though the apostolic see has eagerly sought a remedy on its behalf by earnest endeavour and many forms of assistance, though for long Catholics have striven by grievous toils, by burdensome expense, by care, sweat, tears and bloodshed, yet the hand that extended such aid could not wholly, hindered by sin, snatch the empire from the yoke of the enemy [i.e. the Orthodox].  Thus not without cause we are troubled with grief.  But because the body of the church would be shamefully deformed by the lack of a loved member, namely the aforesaid empire [that it calls the empire, rather than the patriarchate, a member of the church is telling], and be sadly weakened and suffer loss; and because it could rightly be assigned to our sloth and that of the church, if it were deprived of the support of the faithful, and left to be freely oppressed by its enemies; we firmly propose to come to the help of the empire with swift and effective aid.  Thus at the same time as the church eagerly rises to its assistance and stretches out the hand of defence, the empire can be saved from the dominion of its foes, and be brought back by the Lord's guidance to the unity of that same body, and may feel after the crushing hammer of its enemies the consoling hand of the church its mother, and after the blindness of error regain its sight by the possession of the catholic faith [the surrounding armies, not the Crusaders, professed the Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church].  It is the more fitting that prelates of churches and other ecclesiastics should be watchful and diligent for its liberation, and bestow their help and assistance, the more they are bound to work for the increase of the faith and of ecclesiastical liberty, which could chiefly come about from the liberation of the empire; and especially because while the empire is helped, assistance is consequently rendered to the holy Land. 

Indeed, so that the help to the empire may be speedy and useful, we decree, with the general approval of the council, that half of all incomes of dignities parsonages and ecclesiastical prebends, and of other benefices of ecclesiastics who do not personally reside in them for at least six months, whether they hold one or more, shall be assigned in full for three years to the help of the said empire, having been collected by those designated by the apostolic see.  Those are exempt who are employed in our service or in that of our brother cardinals and of their prelates, those who are on pilgrimages or in schools, or engaged in the business of their own churches at their direction, and those who have or will take up the badge of the cross for the aid of the holy Land or who will set out in person to the help of the said empire; but if any of these, apart from the crusaders and those setting out, receive from ecclesiastical revenues more than a hundred silver marks, they should pay a third part of the remainder in each of the three years.  This is to be observed notwithstanding any customs or statutes of churches to the contrary, or any indulgences granted by the apostolic see to these churches or persons, confirmed by oath or any other means.  And if by chance in this matter any shall knowingly be guilty of any deceit, they shall incur the sentence of excommunication. 

We ourselves, from the revenues of the church of Rome, after first deducting a tenth from them to be assigned to the aid of the holy Land, will assign a tenth part in full for the support of the said empire.  Further, when help is given to the empire, assistance is given in a very particular way and directed to the recovery of the holy Land, while we are striving for the liberation of the empire itself.  Thus trusting in the mercy of almighty God and the authority of his blessed apostles Peter and Paul, from the power of binding and loosing which he conferred upon us though unworthy, we grant pardon of their sins to all those who come to the help of the said empire, and we desire they may enjoy that privilege and immunity which is granted to those who come to the help of the holy Land. 

Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic.  We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: 'One is my dove, my perfect one.  She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore her,' and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3].  In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Eph 4:5].  There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed. 

We venerate this Church as one, the Lord having said by the mouth of the prophet: 'Deliver, O God, my soul from the sword and my only one from the hand of the dog.' [ Ps 21:20] He has prayed for his soul, that is for himself, heart and body; and this body, that is to say, the Church, He has called one because of the unity of the Spouse, of the faith, of the sacraments, and of the charity of the Church.  This is the tunic of the Lord, the seamless tunic, which was not rent but which was cast by lot [Jn 19:23-24].  Therefore, of the one and only Church there is one body and one head, not two heads like a monster; that is, Christ and the Vicar of Christ, Peter and the successor of Peter, since the Lord speaking to Peter Himself said: 'Feed my sheep' [Jn 21:17], meaning, my sheep in general, not these, nor those in particular, whence we understand that He entrusted all to him [Peter].  Therefore, if the Greeks

i.e. the Orthodox Catholics

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or others should say that they are not confided to Peter and to his successors, they must confess not being the sheep of Christ, since Our Lord says in John 'there is one sheepfold and one shepherd.'  We are informed by the texts of the gospels that in this Church and in its power are two swords; namely, the spiritual and the temporal.  For when the Apostles say: 'Behold, here are two swords' [Lk 22:38] that is to say, in the Church, since the Apostles were speaking, the Lord did not reply that there were too many, but sufficient.  Certainly the one who denies that the temporal sword is in the power of Peter has not listened well to the word of the Lord commanding: 'Put up thy sword into thy scabbard' [Mt 26:52].  Both, therefore, are in the power of the Church, that is to say, the spiritual and the material sword, but the former is to be administered _for_ the Church but the latter by the Church; the former in the hands of the priest; the latter by the hands of kings and soldiers, but at the will and sufferance of the priest. 

However, one sword ought to be subordinated to the other and temporal authority, subjected to spiritual power.  For since the Apostle said: 'There is no power except from God and the things that are, are ordained of God' [Rom 13:1-2], but they would not be ordained if one sword were not subordinated to the other and if the inferior one, as it were, were not led upwards by the other. 

For, according to the Blessed Dionysius, it is a law of the divinity that the lowest things reach the highest place by intermediaries.  Then, according to the order of the universe, all things are not led back to order equally and immediately, but the lowest by the intermediary, and the inferior by the superior.  Hence we must recognize the more clearly that spiritual power surpasses in dignity and in nobility any temporal power whatever, as spiritual things surpass the temporal.  This we see very clearly also by the payment, benediction, and consecration of the tithes, but the acceptance of power itself and by the government even of things.  For with truth as our witness, it belongs to spiritual power to establish the terrestrial power and to pass judgement if it has not been good.  Thus is accomplished the prophecy of Jeremias concerning the Church and the ecclesiastical power: 'Behold to-day I have placed you over nations, and over kingdoms' and the rest.  Therefore, if the terrestrial power err, it will be judged by the spiritual power; but if a minor spiritual power err, it will be judged by a superior spiritual power; but if the highest power of all err, it can be judged only by God, and not by man, according to the testimony of the Apostle: 'The spiritual man judgeth of all things and he himself is judged by no man' [1 Cor 2:15].  This authority, however, (though it has been given to man and is exercised by man), is not human but rather divine, granted to Peter by a divine word and reaffirmed to him (Peter) and his successors by the One Whom Peter confessed, the Lord saying to Peter himself, 'Whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in Heaven' etc., [ Mt 16:19].  Therefore whoever resists this power thus ordained by God, resists the ordinance of God [Rom 13:2], unless he invent like Manicheus two beginnings, which is false and judged by us heretical, since according to the testimony of Moses, it is not in the beginnings but in the beginning that God created heaven and earth [Gen 1:1].  Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff. 

The Donation of Constantine (c.750-800)In the name of the holy and indivisible Trinity, the Father, namely, and the Son and the Holy Spirit.  The emperor Caesar Flavius Constantine in Christ Jesus, the Lord I God our Saviour, one of that same holy Trinity,-faithful merciful, supreme, beneficent, Alamannic, Gothic, Sarmatic, Germanic, Britannic, Hunic, pious, fortunate, victor and triumpher, always august: to the most holy and blessed father of fathers Sylvester, bishop of the city of and to all his successors the pontiffs , who are about to sit upon Rome and pope, the chair of St. Peter until the end of time - also to all the most reverend and of God beloved catholic bishops, subjected by this our imperial decree throughout the whole world to this same holy, Roman church, who have been established now and in all previous times-grace, peace, charitv, rejoicing, long-suffering, mercv, be with you all from God the Father almighty and from Jesus Christ his Son and from the Holy Ghost.  Our most gracious serenity desires, in clear discourse, through the page of this our imperial decree, to bring to the knowledge of all the people in the whole world what things our Saviour and Redeemer the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the most High Father, has most wonderfully seen fit to bring about through his holy apostles Peter and Paul and by the intervention of our father Sylvester, the highest pontiff and the universal pope.  First, indeed, putting forth, with the inmost confession of our heart, for the purpose of instructing the mind of all of you, our creed which we have learned from the aforesaid most blessed father and our confessor, Svlvester the universal pontiff; and then at length announcing the mercy of God which has been poured upon us. 

For we wish you to know,, as we have signified through our former imperial decree, that we have gone away, from the worship of idols, from mute and deaf images made by hand, from devilish contrivances and from all the pomps of Satan; and have arrived at the pure faith of the Christians, which is the true light and everlasting life.  Believing, according to what he-that same one, our revered supreme father and teacher, the pontiff Sylvester - has taught us, in God the Father, the almighty maker of Heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible; and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord God, through whom all things are created; and in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and vivifier of the whole creature.  We confess these, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, in such way that, in the perfect Trinity, there shall also be a fulness of divinity and a unity of power.  The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; and these three are one in Jesus Christ. 

There are therefore three forms but one power.  For God, wise in all previous time, gave forth from himself the word through which all future ages were to be born; and when, by that sole word of His wisdom, He formed the whole creation from nothing, He was with it, arranging all things in His mysterious secret place. 

Therefore, the virtues of the Heavens and all the material part of the earth having been perfected, by the wise nod of His wisdom first creating man of the clay of the earth in His own image and likeness, He placed him in a paradise of delight.  Him the ancient serpent and envious enemy, the devil, through the most bitter taste of the forbidden tree, made an exile from these joys; and, be being expelled, did not cease in many ways to cast his poisonous darts; in order that, turning the human race from the way of truth to the worship of idols, he might persuade it, namely to worship the creature and not the creator; so that, through them (the idols), he might cause those whom he might be able to entrap in his snares to be burned with him in eternal punishment.  But our Lord, pitying His creature, sending ahead His holy prophets, announcing through them the light of the future life-the coming,' that is, of His Son our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ-sent that same only begotten Son and Word of wisdom: He descending from Heaven on account of our salvation, being born of the Holy Spirit and of the Virgin Mary,-the word was made flesh and d welt among us.  He did not cease to be what He had been, but began to be what He had not been, perfect God and perfect man: as God, performing miracles; as man, sustaining human sufferings.  We so learned Him to be very man and very God by the preaching of our father Sylvester, the supreme pontiff, that we can in no wise doubt that He was very, God and very man.  And, having chosen twelve apostles, He shone with miracles before them and an innumerable multitude of people.  We confess that this same Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets; that He suffered, was crucified, on the third day arose from the dead according to the Scriptures; was received into Heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father.  Whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.  For this is our orthodox creed, placed before us by our most blessed father Sylvester, the supreme pontiff.  We exhort, therefore, all people, and all the different nations, to hold, cherish and preach this faith; and, in the name of the Holy Trinity, to obtain the grace of baptism; and, with devaout heart, to adore the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour, who with the Father and the Holy Spirit, lives and reigns through infinite ages; whom Sylvester our father, the universal pontiff, preaches.  For He himself, our Lord God, having pit on me a sinner, sent His holy apostles to visit us, and caused the light of his splendour to shine upon us.  And do ye rejoice that I, having been withdrawn from the shadow, have come to the true light and to the knowledge of truth.  For, at a time when a mighty and filthy leprosy had invaded all the flesh of my, body, and the care was administered of many physicians who came together, nor by that of any one of them did I achieve health: there came hither the priests of the Capitol, saving to me that a font should be made on the Capitol, and that I should fill this with the blood of innocent infants; and that, if I bathed in it while it was warm, I might be cleansed.  And very many innocent infants having been brought together according to their words, when the sacrilegious priests of the pagans wished them to be slaughtered and the font to be filled with their blood: Our Serenity perceiving the tears of the mothers, I straightway abhorred the deed.  And, pitying them, I ordered their own sons to be restored to them; and, giving them vehicles and gifts, sent them off rejoicing to their own.  That day having passed therefore-the silence of night having come upon us-when the time of sleep had arrived, the apostles St. Peter and Paul appear, saying to me: "Since thou hast placed a term to thy vices, and hast abhorred the pouring forth of innocent blood, we are sent by, Christ the Lord our God, to give to thee a plan for recovering thy health.  Hear, therefore, our warning, and do what we indicate to thee.  Sylvester - the bishop of the city of Rome - on Mount Serapte, fleeing they persecutions, cherishes the darkness with his clergy in the caverns of the rocks.  This one, when thou shalt have led him to thyself, will himself show thee a pool of piety; in which, when he shall have dipped thee for the third time, all that strength of the leprosy will desert thee.  And, when this shall have been done, make this return to thy Saviour, that by thy order through the whole world the churches may be restored.  Purify thyself, moreover, in this way, that, leaving all the superstition of idols, thou do adore and cherish the living and true God -- who is alone and true -- and that thou attain to the doing of His will. 

Rising, therefore, from sleep, straightway I did according to that which I bad been advised to do by, the holy apostles; and, having summoned that excellent and benignant father and our enlightener - Svlvester the universal pope-I told him all the words that had been taught me by the holy apostles; and asked him who where those gods Peter and Paul.  But he said that they where not really called gods, but apostles of our Saviour the Lord God Jesus Christ.  And again we began to ask that same most blessed pope whether he had some express image of those apostles; so that, from their likeness, we might learn that they were those whom revelation bad shown to us.  Then that same venerable father ordered the images of those same apostles to be shown by his deacon.  And, when I had looked at them, and recognized, represented in those images, the countenances of those whom I had seen in my dream: with a great noise, before all my satraps*, I confessed that they were those whom I had seen in my dream. [*  there were no such Roman officials]

Hereupon that same most blessed Sylvester our father, bishop of the city of Rome, imposed upon us a time of penance-within our Lateran palace, in the chapel, in a hair garment,-so that I might obtain pardon from our Lord God Jesus Christ our Saviour by vigils, fasts, and tears and prayers, for all things that had been impiously done and unjustly ordered by me.  Then through the imposition of the hands of the clergy, I came to the bishop himself; and there, renouncing the pomps of Satan and his works, and all idols made by hands, of my own will before all the people I confessed: that I believed in God the Father almighty, maker of Heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son our Lord, who was born of the Holy Spirit and of the Virgin Mary.  And, the font having been blessed, the wave of salvation purified me there with a triple immersion.  For there 1, being placed at the bottom of the font, saw with my own eyes a band from Heaven touching me; whence rising, clean, know that I was cleansed from all the squalor of leprosy.  And, I being raised from the venerable font-putting on white raiment, be administered to me the sign of the seven-fold holy Spirit, the unction of the holy oil; and he traced the sign of the holy cross on my brow, saying: God seals thee with the seal of His faith in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, to signalize thy faith.  All the clergy replied: "Amen."  The bishop added, "peace be with thee." 

And so, on the first day after receiving the mystery of the holy baptism, and after the cure of my body from the squalor of the leprosy, I recognized that there was no other God save the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; whom the most blessed Sylvester the pope doth preach; a trinity in one, a unity in three.  For all the gods of the nations, whom I have worshipped up to this time, are proved to be demons; works made by the hand of men; inasmuch as that same venerable father told to us most clearly how much power in Heaven and on earth He, our Saviour, conferred on his apostle St. Peter, when finding him faithful after questioning him He said: "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock (petrani) shall I build My Church, and the gates of bell shall not prevail against it."  Give heed ye powerful, and incline the ear of .your hearts to that which the good Lord and Master added to His disciple, saying: and I will give thee the keys of the kingdom of Heaven; and whatever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound also in Heaven, and whatever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed also in Heaven."  This is very wonderful and glorious, to bind and loose on earth and to have it bound and loosed in Heaven. 

And when, the blessed Sylvester preaching them, I perceived these things, and learned that by the kindness of St. Peter himself I had been entirely restored to health: I together with all our satraps and the whole senate and the nobles and all the Roman people, who are subject to the glory of our rule -considered it advisable that, as on earth he (Peter) is seen to have been constituted vicar of the Son of God, so the pontiffs, who are the representatives of that same chief of the apostles, should obtain from us and our empire the power of a supremacy greater than the earthly clemency of our imperial serenity is seen to have had conceded to it,-we choosing that same prince of the apostles, or his vicars, to be our constant intercessors with God.  And, to the extent of our earthly imperial power, we decree that his holy Roman church shall be honoured with veneration; and that, more than our empire and earthly throne, the most sacred seat of St. Peter shall be gloriously exalted; we giving to it the imperial power, and dignity of glory, and vigour and honour. 

And we ordain and decree that he shall have the supremacy as well over the four chief seats Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople* and Jerusalem, as also over all the churches of God in the -whole world.  And he who for the time being shall be pontiff of that holy Roman church shall be more exalted than, and chief over, all the priests of the whole world; and, according to his judgment, everything which is to be provided for the service of God or the stability of the faith of the Christians is to be administered.  It is indeed just, that there the holy law should have the seat of its rule where the founder of holy laws, our Saviour, told St. Peter to take the chair of the apostleship; where also, sustaining the cross, he blissfully took the cup of death and appeared as imitator of his Lord and Master; and that there the people should bend their necks at the confession of Christ's name, where their teacher, St. Paul the apostle, extending his neck for Christ, was crowned with martyrdom.  There, until the end, let them seek a teacher, where the holy body of the teacher lies; and there, prone and humiliated, let them perform I the service of the heavenly king, God our Saviour Jesus Christ, where the proud were accustomed to serve under the rule of an earthly king. [* at the time of the supposed date of the document, Constantinople had not been founded.  Its position as "chief seat" was two centuries away.] 

Meanwhile we wish all the people, of all the races and nations throughout the whole world, to know: that we have constructed within our Lateran palace, to the same Saviour our Lord God Jesus Christ, a church with a baptistry from the foundations.  And know that we have carried on our own shoulders from its foundations, twelve baskets weighted with earth, according to the number of the holy apostles.  Which holy church we command to be spoken of, cherished, venerated and preached of, as the head and summit of all the churches in the whole world-as we have commanded through our other imperial decrees.  We have also constructed the churches of St. Peter and St. Paul, chiefs of the apostles, which we have enriched with gold and silver; where also, placing their most sacred bodies with great honour, we have constructed their caskets of electrum, against which no force of the elements prevails.  And we have placed a cross of purest gold and precious gems on each of their caskets, and fastened them with golden keys.  And on these churches for the endowing of divine services we have conferred estates, and have enriched them with different objects; and, through our sacred imperial decrees, we have granted them our gift of land in the East as well as in the West; and even on the northern and southern coast;-namely in Judea, Greece, Asia, Thrace, Africa and Italy and the various islands: under this condition indeed, that all shall be administered by the hand of our most blessed father the pontiff Sylvester and his successors. 

For let all the people and the nations of the races in the whole world rejoice with us; we exhorting all of you to give unbounded thanks, together with us, to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.  For He is God in Heaven above and on earth below, who, visiting us through His holy apostles, made us worthy to receive the holy sacrament of baptism and health of body.  In return for which, to those same holy apostles, my masters, St. Peter and St. Paul; and, through them, also to St. Sylvester, our father,-the chief pontiff and universal pope of the city of Rome,-and to all the pontiffs his successors, who until the end of the world shall be about to sit in the seat of St. Peter: we concede and, by this present, do confer, our imperial Lateran palace, which is preferred to, and ranks above, all the palaces in the whole world; then a diadem, that is, the crown of our head, and at the same time the tiara; and, also, the shoulder band,-that is, the collar that usually surrounds our imperial neck; and also the purple mantle, and crimson tunic, and all the imperial raiment; and the same rank as those presiding over the imperial cavalry; conferring also the imperial sceptres, and, at the same time, the spears and standards; also the banners and different imperial ornaments, and all the advantage of our high imperial position, and the glory of our power. 

And we decree, as to those most reverend men, the clergy who serve, in different orders, that same holy Roman church, that they shall have the same advantage, distinction, power and excellence by the glory of which our most illustrious senate is adorned; that is, that they shall be made patricians and consuls,-we commanding that they shall also be decorated with the other imperial dignities.  And even as the imperial soldiery, so, we decree, shall the clergy of the holy Roman church be adorned.  And I even as the imperial power is adorned by different offices-by the distinction, that is, of chamberlains, and door keepers, and all the guards,-so we wish the holy Roman church to be adorned.  And, in order that the pontifical glory may shine forth more fully, we decree this also: that the clergy of this same holy Roman church may use saddle cloths of linen of the whitest colour; namely that their horses may be adorned and so be ridden, and that, as our senate uses shoes with goats' hair, so they may be distinguished by gleaming linen; in order that, as the celestial beings, so the terrestrial may be adorned to the glory of God.  Above all things, moreover, we give permission to that same most holy one our father Sylvester, bishop of the city of Rome and pope, and to all the most blessed pontiffs who shall come after him and succeed him in all future times-for the honour and glory of Jesus Christ our Lord,-to receive into that great Catholic and apostolic church of God, even into the number of the monastic clergy, any one from our senate, who, in free choice, of his own accord, may wish to become- a cleric; no one at all presuming thereby to act in a haughty manner. 

We also decreed this, that this same venerable one our father Sylvester, the supreme pontiff, and all the pontiffs his successors, might use and bear upon their heads-to the Praise of God and for the honour of St. Peter-the diadem; that is, the crown which we have granted him from our own head, of purest gold and precious gems. 

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But he, the most holy pope, did not at all allow that crown of gold to be used over the clerical crown which he wears to the glory of St. Peter; but we placed upon his most holy head, with our own hands, a tiara of gleaming splendour representing the glorious resurrection of our Lord.  And, holding the bridle of his horse, out of reverence for St. Peter we performed for him the duty of groom; decreeing that all the pontiffs his successors, and they alone, may use that tiara in processions. 

In imitation of our own power, in order that for that cause the supreme pontificate may not deteriorate, but may rather be adorned with power and glory even more than is the dignity of an earthly rule: behold we-giving over to the oft-mentioned most blessed pontiff, our father Sylvester the universal pope, as well our palace, as has been said, as also the city of Rome and all the provinces, districts and cities of Italy or of the western regions; and relinquishing them, by our inviolable gift, to the power and sway of himself or the pontiffs his successors-do decree, by this our godlike charter and imperial constitution, that it shall be (so) arranged; and do concede that they (the palaces, provinces etc.)  shall lawfully remain with the holy Roman church. 

Wherefore we have perceived it to be fitting that our empire and the power of our kingdom should be transferred and changed to the regions of the East; and that, in the province of Byzantium, in a most fitting place, a city should be built in our name; and that our empire should there be established.  For, where the supremacy of priests and the bead of the Christian religion has been established by a heavenly ruler, it is not just that there an earthly ruler should have jurisdiction. 

We decree, moreover, that all these things which, through this our imperial charter and through other godlike commands, we have established and confirmed, shall remain uninjured and unshaken until the end of the world.  Wherefore, before the living God, who commanded us to reign, and in the face of his terrible judgment, we conjure, through this our imperial decree, all the emperors our successors, and all our nobles, the satraps also and the most glorious senate, and all the people in the ,A-hole world now and in all times previously subject to our rule: that no one of them, in any way allow himself to oppose or disregard, or in any way seize, these things which, by our imperial sanction, have been conceded to the holy Roman church and to all its pontiffs.  If anyone, moreover,-which we do not believe - prove a scorner or despiser in this matter, he shall be subject and bound over to eternal damnation; and shall feel that the holy chiefs of the apostles of God, Peter and Paul, will be opposed to him in the present and in the future life.  And, being burned in the nethermost hell, he shall perish with the devil and all the impious. [ by what authority St. Constantine had authority over hell is not explained]

The page, moreover, of this our imperial decree, we, confirming it with our own hands, did place above the venerable body of St. Peter chief of the apostles; and there, promising to that same apostle of God that we would preserve inviolably all its provisions, and would leave in our commands to all the emperors our successors to preserve them, we did hand it over, to be enduringly and happily possessed, to our most blessed father Sylvester the supreme pontiff and universal pope, and, through him, to all the pontiffs his successors -God our Lord and our Saviour Jesus Christ consenting. 

And the imperial subscription: May the Divinity preserve you for many years, oh most holy and blessed fathers. 

Given at Rome on the third day before the Kalends of April, our master the august Flavius Constantine, for the fourth time, and Galligano, most illustrious men, being consuls. 

Btw, the Donation was forged it seems to legitimize the pope's grab for power in Italy in exchange for the supreme pontiff's legitimizing of the grab of the Frankish emperors (who spread the filioque faith) for power in Paris.  The same Lateran palace was the same place where supreme pontiff Innocent III has his rubber stamp council legitimize the sack of Constantinople. 

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The Vatican is a City-State in Italy. 

Yes.  I know.  I've been there.  Its in the middle of all those lands Constantine donated to the supreme pontiffs on pain of hellfire (the House of Savoy and the Italian state must be worried), confirmed by Mussolini. 

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It's impossible to be in communion with the Vatican. 

Your supreme pontiff calls the Crusader state a member of the "Roman church" and ex cathedra claims the temporal sword by which it forces communion.  The "holy Roman empeor" Leopold by his decree made the Orthodox Church of Transylvania in communion with the Vatican.  Your suprem pontiffs created and embraced Cuius regio, eius religio, and declared Henry VIII Defender of the Faith (ironic, no?).  And the Vatican's perennial attempt to get the Emperor of the Romans to sign the Catholic Church of the Orthodox over to the Vatican.  Etc. 

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You must be confused. 

One need only look at the above to see who is confused. 

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more. A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood. If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

How can one be the sovereign of a state on the basis of the claim of acting as vicar of Him Who said "My Kingdom is not of this world?"  Sort of like how the communist party ruled the Soviet state like a hand in a glove.  Your supreme pontiffs (what's a bishop of Christ's Church doing holding the office of pagan high priest of the Roman state, an office founded by the Roman kings?)  have some interesting ideas, which they evidently picked up when St. Constantine donated (LOL) the papal state:

The Vatican lost no time in profitting from it.  The same Pope Innocent (what a misnomer!)  III called a "ecumenical" council to "legitimize" the spoils.  Imposing a Latin Patriarchate on Constantinople, he finally formally accepted Constantinople as a Patriarchate and in second place, after it had moved to first place, due to Rome's apostasy.  The Vatican convened its so called 12th "Ecumenical" council of Lateran IV-which it has not repudiated-which stated:

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3.  On Heretics

We excommunicate and anathematize every heresy raising itself up against this holy, orthodox and catholic faith which we have expounded above [the Ultramontanist filioque faith].  We condemn all heretics, whatever names they may go under.  They have different faces indeed but their tails are tied together inasmuch as they are alike in their pride.  Let those condemned be handed over to the secular authorities present, or to their bailiffs, for due punishment.  Clerics are first to be degraded from their orders.  The goods of the condemned are to be confiscated, if they are lay persons, and if clerics they are to be applied to the churches from which they received their stipends.  Those who are only found suspect of heresy are to be struck with the sword of anathema, unless they prove their innocence by an appropriate purgation, having regard to the reasons for suspicion and the character of the person.  Let such persons be avoided by all until they have made adequate satisfaction.  If they persist in the excommunication for a year, they are to be condemned as heretics.  Let secular authorities, whatever offices they may be discharging, be advised and urged and if necessary be compelled by ecclesiastical censure, if they wish to be reputed and held to be faithful, to take publicly an oath for the defence of the faith to the effect that they will seek, in so far as they can, to expel from the lands subject to their jurisdiction all heretics designated by the church in good faith.  Thus whenever anyone is promoted to spiritual or temporal authority, he shall be obliged to confirm this article with an oath.  If however a temporal lord, required and instructed by the church, neglects to cleanse his territory of this heretical filth, he shall be bound with the bond of excommunication by the metropolitan and other bishops of the province.  If he refuses to give satisfaction within a year, this shall be reported to the supreme pontiff so that he may then declare his vassals absolved from their fealty to him and make the land available for occupation by Catholics so that these may, after they have expelled the heretics, possess it unopposed and preserve it in the purity of the faith — saving the right of the suzerain provided that he makes no difficulty in the matter and puts no impediment in the way.  The same law is to be observed no less as regards those who do not have a suzerain. 

Catholics who take the cross and gird themselves up for the expulsion of heretics shall enjoy the same indulgence, and be strengthened by the same holy privilege, as is granted to those who go to the aid of the holy Land.  Moreover, we determine to subject to excommunication believers who receive, defend or support heretics.  We strictly ordain that if any such person, after he has been designated as excommunicated [and remeber, the bull of 1054 so designated the Orthodox Catholics], refuses to render satisfaction within a year, then by the law itself he shall be branded as infamous and not be admitted to public offices or councils or to elect others to the same or to give testimony.  He shall be intestable, that is he shall not have the freedom to make a will nor shall succeed to an inheritance.  Moreover nobody shall be compelled to answer to him on any business whatever, but he may be compelled to answer to them.  If he is a judge sentences pronounced by him shall have no force and cases may not be brought before him; if an advocate, he may not be allowed to defend anyone; if a notary, documents drawn up by him shall be worthless and condemned along with their condemned author; and in similar matters we order the same to be observed.  If however he is a cleric, let him be deposed from every office and benefice, so that the greater the fault the greater be the punishment.  If any refuse to avoid such persons after they have been pointed out by the church, let them be punished with the sentence of excommunication until they make suitable satisfaction.  Clerics should not, of course, give the sacraments of the church to such pestilent people nor give them a Christian burial nor accept alms or offerings from them; if they do, let them be deprived of their office and not restored to it without a special indult of the apostolic see.  Similarly with regulars, let them be punished with losing their privileges in the diocese in which they presume to commit such excesses. 

"There are some who holding to the form of religion but denying its power (as the Apostle says) , claim for themselves the authority to preach, whereas the same Apostle says, How shall they preach unless they are sent?  Let therefore all those who have been forbidden or not sent to preach, and yet dare publicly or privately to usurp the office of preaching without having received the authority of the apostolic see or the catholic bishop of the place", be bound with the bond of excommunication and, unless they repent very quickly, be punished by another suitable penalty.  We add further that each archbishop or bishop, either in person or through his archdeacon or through suitable honest persons, should visit twice or at least once in the year any parish of his in which heretics are said to live.  There he should compel three or more men of good repute, or even if it seems expedient the whole neighbourhood, to swear that if anyone knows of heretics there or of any persons who hold secret conventicles or who differ in their life and habits from the normal way of living of the faithful, then he will take care to point them out to the bishop.  The bishop himself should summon the accused to his presence, and they should be punished canonically if they are unable to clear themselves of the charge or if after compurgation they relapse into their former errors of faith.  If however any of them with damnable obstinacy refuse to honour an oath and so will not take it, let them by this very fact be regarded as heretics.  We therefore will and command and, in virtue of obedience, strictly command that bishops see carefully to the effective execution of these things throughout their dioceses, if they wish to avoid canonical penalties.  If any bishop is negligent or remiss in cleansing his diocese of the ferment of heresy, then when this shows itself by unmistakeable signs he shall be deposed from his office as bishop and there shall be put in his place a suitable person who both wishes and is able to overthrow the evil of heresy

4.  On the pride of the Greeks towards the Latins

Although we would wish to cherish and honour the Greeks who in our days are returning to the obedience of the apostolic see, by preserving their customs and rites as much as we can in the Lord, nevertheless we neither want nor ought to defer to them in matters which bring danger to souls and detract from the church's honour.  For, after the Greek church together with certain associates and supporters withdrew from the obedience of the apostolic see, the Greeks began to detest the Latins so much that, among other wicked things which they committed out of contempt for them, when Latin priests celebrated on their altars they would not offer sacrifice on them until they had washed them, as if the altars had been defiled thereby.  The Greeks even had the temerity to rebaptize those baptized by the Latins; and some, as we are told, still do not fear to do this.  Wishing therefore to remove such a great scandal from God's church, we strictly order, on the advice of this sacred council, that henceforth they do not presume to do such things but rather conform themselves like obedient sons to the holy Roman church, their mother, so that there may be one flock and one shepherd.  If anyone however does dare to do such a thing, let him be struck with the sword of excommunication and be deprived of every ecclesiastical office and benefice. [ of course, the Orthodox Catholics did and continue to "dare to do such a thing."] 

5.  The dignity of the patriarchal sees

Renewing the ancient privileges of the patriarchal sees, we decree, with the approval of this sacred universal synod, that after the Roman church, which through the Lord's disposition has a primacy of ordinary power over all other churches inasmuch as it is the mother and mistress of all Christ's faithful, the church of Constantinople shall have the first place, the church of Alexandria the second place, the church of Antioch the third place, and the church of Jerusalem the fourth place, each maintaining its own rank.  Thus after their pontiffs have received from the Roman pontiff the pallium, which is the sign of the fullness of the pontifical office, and have taken an oath of fidelity and obedience to him [no such thing ever happened from the time of the Apostles until the Crudaders came] they may lawfully confer the pallium on their own suffragans, receiving from them for themselves canonical profession and for the Roman church the promise of obedience.  They may have a standard of the Lord's cross carried before them anywhere except in the city of Rome or wherever there is present the supreme pontiff or his legate wearing the insignia of the apostolic dignity.  In all the provinces subject to their jurisdiction let appeal be made to them, when it is necessary, except for appeals made to the apostolic see, to which all must humbly defer.[dream on]

71.  Crusade to recover the holy Land

It is our ardent desire to liberate the holy Land from infidel hands.  We therefore declare, with the approval of this sacred council and on the advice of prudent men who are fully aware of the circumstances of time and place, that crusaders are to make themselves ready so that all who have arranged to go by sea shall assemble in the kingdom of Sicily on 1 June after next : some as necessary and fitting at Brindisi and others at Messina and places neighbouring it on either side, where we too have arranged to be in person at that time, God willing, so that with our advice and help the Christian army may be in good order to set out with divine and apostolic blessing.  Those who have decided to go by land should also take care to be ready by the same date.  They shall notify us meanwhile so that we may grant them a suitable legate a latere for advice and help.  Priests and other clerics who will be in the Christian army, both those under authority and prelates, shall diligently devote themselves to prayer and exhortation, teaching the crusaders by word and example to have the fear and love of God always before their eyes, so that they say or do nothing that might offend the divine majesty.  If they ever fall into sin, let them quickly rise up again through true penitence.  Let them be humble in heart and in body, keeping to moderation both in food and in dress, avoiding altogether dissensions and rivalries, and putting aside entirely any bitterness or envy, so that thus armed with spiritual and material weapons they may the more fearlessly fight against the enemies of the faith, relying not on their own power but rather trusting in the strength of God.  We grant to these clerics that they may receive the fruits of their benefices in full for three years, as if they were resident in the churches, and if necessary they may leave them in pledge for the same time. 

To prevent this holy proposal being impeded or delayed, we strictly order all prelates of churches, each in his own locality, diligently to warn and induce those who have abandoned the cross to resume it, and them and others who have taken up the cross, and those who may still do so, to carry out their vows to the Lord.  And if necessary they shall compel them to do this without any backsliding, by sentences of excommunication against their persons and of interdict on their lands, excepting only those persons who find themselves faced with an impediment of such a kind that their vow deservedly ought to be commuted or deferred in accordance with the directives of the apostolic see.  In order that nothing connected with this business of Jesus Christ be omitted, we will and order patriarchs, archbishops, bishops, abbots and others who have the care of souls to preach the cross zealously to those entrusted to them.  Let them beseech kings, dukes, princes, margraves, counts, barons and other magnates, as well as the communities of cities, vills and towns — in the name of the Father, Son and holy Spirit, the one, only, true and eternal God — that those who do not go in person to the aid of the holy Land should contribute, according to their means, an appropriate number of fighting men together with their necessary expenses for three years, for the remission of their sins in accordance with what has already been explained in general letters and will be explained below for still greater assurance.  We wish to share in this remission not only those who contribute ships of their own but also those who are zealous enough to build them for this purpose.  To those who refuse, if there happen to be any who are so ungrateful to our lord God, we firmly declare in the name of the apostle that they should know that they will have to answer to us for this on the last day of final judgment before the fearful judge. 

In other words, THE SWORD THAT ST.  PETER PUT INTO THE SHEATH AT THE LORD'S COMMAND, POPE INNOCENT III ON HIS OWN COMMAND PICKED UP AND SWUNG, AND SWUNG HARD. 

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Let them consider beforehand, however with what conscience and with what security it was that they were able to confess before the only-begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ, to whom the Father gave all things into his hands, if in this business, which is as it were peculiarly his, they refuse to serve him who was crucified for sinners, by whose beneficence they are sustained and indeed by whose blood they have been redeemed. 

Lest we appear to be laying on men's shoulders heavy and unbearable burdens which we are not willing to lighten, like those who say yes but do nothing behold we, from what we have been able to save over and above necessities and moderate expenses, grant and give thirty thousand pounds to this work, besides the shipping which we are giving to the crusaders of Rome and neighbouring districts.  We will assign for this purpose, moreover, three thousand marks of silver, which we have left over from the alms of certain of the faithful, the rest having been faithfully distributed for the needs and benefit of the aforesaid Land by the hands of the abbot patriarch of Jerusalem, of happy memory, and of the masters of the Temple and of the Hospital.  We wish, however, that other prelates of churches and all clerics may participate and share both in the merit and in the reward.  We therefore decree, with the general approval of the council, that all clerics, both those under authority and prelates, shall give a twentieth of their ecclesiastical revenues for three years to the aid of the holy Land, by means of the persons appointed by the apostolic see for this purpose; the only exceptions being certain religious who are rightly to be exempted from this taxation and likewise those persons who have taken or will take the cross and so will go in person.  We and our brothers, cardinals of the holy Roman church, shall pay a full tenth.  Let all know, moreover, that they are obliged to observe this faithfully under pain of excommunication, so that those who knowingly deceive in this matter shall incur the sentence of excommunication.  Because it is right that those who persevere in the service of the heavenly ruler should in all justice enjoy special privilege, and because the day of departure is somewhat more than a year ahead, crusaders shall therefore be.  exempt from taxes or levies and other burdens.  We take their persons and goods under the protection of St Peter and ourself once they have taken up the cross.  We ordain that they are to be protected by archbishops, bishops and all prelates of the church, and that protectors of their own are to be specially appointed for this purpose, so that their goods are to remain intact and undisturbed until they are known for certain to be dead or to have returned.  If anyone dares to act contrary to this, let him be curbed by ecclesiastical censure. 

If any of those setting out are bound by oath to pay interest, we ordain that their creditors shall be compelled by the same punishment to release them from their oath and to desist from exacting the interest; if any of the creditors does force them to pay the interest, we command that he be forced by similar punishment to restore it.  We order that Jews be compelled by the secular power to remit interest, and that until they do so all intercourse shall be denied them by all Christ's faithful under pain of excommunication.  Secular princes shall provide a suitable deferral for those who cannot now pay their debts to Jews, so that after they have undertaken the journey and until there is certain knowledge of their death or of their return, they shall not incur the inconvenience of paying interest.  The Jews shall be compelled to add to the capital, after they have deducted their necessary expenses, the revenues which they are meanwhile receiving from property held by them on security.  For, such a benefit seems to entail not much loss, inasmuch as it postpones the repayment but does not cancel the debt.  Prelates of churches who are negligent in showing justice to crusaders and their families should know that they will be severely punished. 

Furthermore, since corsairs and pirates greatly impede help for the holy Land, by capturing and plundering those who are travelling to and from it, we bind with the bond of excommunication everyone who helps or supports them.  We forbid anyone, under threat of anathema, knowingly to communicate with them by contracting to buy or to sell; and we order rulers of cities and their territories to restrain and curb such persons from this iniquity.  Otherwise, since to be unwilling to disquiet evildoers is none other than to encourage them, and since he who fails to oppose a manifest crime is not without a touch of secret complicity, it is our wish and command that prelates of churches exercise ecclesiastical severity against their persons and lands.  We excommunicate and anathematize, moreover, those false and impious Christians who, in opposition to Christ and the Christian people, convey arms to the Saracens and iron and timber for their galleys.  We decree that those who sell them galleys or ships, and those who act as pilots in pirate Saracen ships, or give them any advice or help by way of machines or anything else, to the detriment of the holy Land, are to be punished with deprivation of their possessions and are to become the slaves of those who capture them.  We order this sentence to be renewed on Sundays and feast-days in all maritime towns; and the bosom of the church is not to be opened to such persons unless they send in aid of the holy Land the whole of the damnable wealth which they received and the same amount of their own, so that they are punished in proportion to their offence.  If perchance they do not pay, they are to be punished in other ways in order that through their punishment others may be deterred from venturing upon similar rash actions.  In addition, we prohibit and on pain of anathema forbid all Christians, for four years, to send or take their ships across to the lands of the Saracens who dwell in the east, so that by this a greater supply of shipping may be made ready for those wanting to cross over to help the holy Land, and so that the aforesaid Saracens may be deprived of the not inconsiderable help which they have been accustomed to receiving from this. 

Although tournaments have been forbidden in a general way on pain of a fixed penalty at various councils, we strictly forbid them to be held for three years, under pain of excommunication, because the business of the crusade is much hindered by them at this present time.  Because it is of the utmost necessity for the carrying out of this business that rulers of the Christian people keep peace with each other, we therefore ordain, on the advice of this holy general synod, that peace be generally kept in the whole Christian world for at least four years, so that those in conflict shall be brought by the prelates of churches to conclude a definitive peace or to observe inviolably a firm truce.  Those who refuse to comply shall be most strictly compelled to do so by an excommunication against their persons and an interdict on their lands, unless their wrongdoing is so great that they ought not to enjoy peace.  If it happens that they make light of the church's censure, they may deservedly fear that the secular power will be invoked by ecclesiastical authority against them as disturbers of the business of him who was crucified. 

We therefore, trusting in the mercy of almighty God and in the authority of the blessed apostles Peter and Paul, do grant, by the power of binding and loosing that God has conferred upon us, albeit unworthy, unto all those who undertake this work in person and at their own expense, full pardon for their sins about which they are heartily contrite and have spoken in confession, and we promise them an increase of eternal life at the recompensing of the just; also to those who do not go there in person but send suitable men at their own expense, according to their means and status, and likewise to those who go in person but at others' expense, we grant full pardon for their sins.  We wish and grant to share in this remission, according to the quality of their help and the intensity of their devotion, all who shall contribute suitably from their goods to the aid of the said Land or who give useful advice and help.  Finally, this general synod imparts the benefit of its blessings to all who piously set out on this common enterprise in order that it may contribute worthily to their salvation. 

Rather than turnign from the sack of Constantinople, the Vatican then later convened its so called 13th "ecumenical" council of Lyons I, with its Latin emperor and its Latin patriarchs it imposed (Alexandria and Jerusalem, however, being outside the Crusaders reach) in session to try to solidify Crusader control when the armies of the Orthodox sovereigns laid seige to Constatinople to retake her and place the Orthodox EP in exile back on the cathedra of SS.  Andrew, Gregory Nazianzus, John Chrysostom and Photios:

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2. { 47} On help for the empire of Constantinople

Though we are engaged in difficult matters and distracted by manifold anxieties, yet among those things which demand our constant attention is the liberation of the empire of Constantinople. [ the armies of the Orthodox had surrounded the capital] This we desire with our whole heart, this is ever the object of our thoughts.  Yet though the apostolic see has eagerly sought a remedy on its behalf by earnest endeavour and many forms of assistance, though for long Catholics have striven by grievous toils, by burdensome expense, by care, sweat, tears and bloodshed, yet the hand that extended such aid could not wholly, hindered by sin, snatch the empire from the yoke of the enemy [i.e. the Orthodox].  Thus not without cause we are troubled with grief.  But because the body of the church would be shamefully deformed by the lack of a loved member, namely the aforesaid empire [that it calls the empire, rather than the patriarchate, a member of the church is telling], and be sadly weakened and suffer loss; and because it could rightly be assigned to our sloth and that of the church, if it were deprived of the support of the faithful, and left to be freely oppressed by its enemies; we firmly propose to come to the help of the empire with swift and effective aid.  Thus at the same time as the church eagerly rises to its assistance and stretches out the hand of defence, the empire can be saved from the dominion of its foes, and be brought back by the Lord's guidance to the unity of that same body, and may feel after the crushing hammer of its enemies the consoling hand of the church its mother, and after the blindness of error regain its sight by the possession of the catholic faith [the surrounding armies, not the Crusaders, professed the Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church].  It is the more fitting that prelates of churches and other ecclesiastics should be watchful and diligent for its liberation, and bestow their help and assistance, the more they are bound to work for the increase of the faith and of ecclesiastical liberty, which could chiefly come about from the liberation of the empire; and especially because while the empire is helped, assistance is consequently rendered to the holy Land. 

Indeed, so that the help to the empire may be speedy and useful, we decree, with the general approval of the council, that half of all incomes of dignities parsonages and ecclesiastical prebends, and of other benefices of ecclesiastics who do not personally reside in them for at least six months, whether they hold one or more, shall be assigned in full for three years to the help of the said empire, having been collected by those designated by the apostolic see.  Those are exempt who are employed in our service or in that of our brother cardinals and of their prelates, those who are on pilgrimages or in schools, or engaged in the business of their own churches at their direction, and those who have or will take up the badge of the cross for the aid of the holy Land or who will set out in person to the help of the said empire; but if any of these, apart from the crusaders and those setting out, receive from ecclesiastical revenues more than a hundred silver marks, they should pay a third part of the remainder in each of the three years.  This is to be observed notwithstanding any customs or statutes of churches to the contrary, or any indulgences granted by the apostolic see to these churches or persons, confirmed by oath or any other means.  And if by chance in this matter any shall knowingly be guilty of any deceit, they shall incur the sentence of excommunication. 

We ourselves, from the revenues of the church of Rome, after first deducting a tenth from them to be assigned to the aid of the holy Land, will assign a tenth part in full for the support of the said empire.  Further, when help is given to the empire, assistance is given in a very particular way and directed to the recovery of the holy Land, while we are striving for the liberation of the empire itself.  Thus trusting in the mercy of almighty God and the authority of his blessed apostles Peter and Paul, from the power of binding and loosing which he conferred upon us though unworthy, we grant pardon of their sins to all those who come to the help of the said empire, and we desire they may enjoy that privilege and immunity which is granted to those who come to the help of the holy Land. 

Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic.  We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: 'One is my dove, my perfect one.  She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore her,' and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3].  In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Eph 4:5].  There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed. 

We venerate this Church as one, the Lord having said by the mouth of the prophet: 'Deliver, O God, my soul from the sword and my only one from the hand of the dog.' [ Ps 21:20] He has prayed for his soul, that is for himself, heart and body; and this body, that is to say, the Church, He has called one because of the unity of the Spouse, of the faith, of the sacraments, and of the charity of the Church.  This is the tunic of the Lord, the seamless tunic, which was not rent but which was cast by lot [Jn 19:23-24].  Therefore, of the one and only Church there is one body and one head, not two heads like a monster; that is, Christ and the Vicar of Christ, Peter and the successor of Peter, since the Lord speaking to Peter Himself said: 'Feed my sheep' [Jn 21:17], meaning, my sheep in general, not these, nor those in particular, whence we understand that He entrusted all to him [Peter].  Therefore, if the Greeks

i.e. the Orthodox Catholics

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or others should say that they are not confided to Peter and to his successors, they must confess not being the sheep of Christ, since Our Lord says in John 'there is one sheepfold and one shepherd.'  We are informed by the texts of the gospels that in this Church and in its power are two swords; namely, the spiritual and the temporal.  For when the Apostles say: 'Behold, here are two swords' [Lk 22:38] that is to say, in the Church, since the Apostles were speaking, the Lord did not reply that there were too many, but sufficient.  Certainly the one who denies that the temporal sword is in the power of Peter has not listened well to the word of the Lord commanding: 'Put up thy sword into thy scabbard' [Mt 26:52].  Both, therefore, are in the power of the Church, that is to say, the spiritual and the material sword, but the former is to be administered _for_ the Church but the latter by the Church; the former in the hands of the priest; the latter by the hands of kings and soldiers, but at the will and sufferance of the priest. 

However, one sword ought to be subordinated to the other and temporal authority, subjected to spiritual power.  For since the Apostle said: 'There is no power except from God and the things that are, are ordained of God' [Rom 13:1-2], but they would not be ordained if one sword were not subordinated to the other and if the inferior one, as it were, were not led upwards by the other. 

For, according to the Blessed Dionysius, it is a law of the divinity that the lowest things reach the highest place by intermediaries.  Then, according to the order of the universe, all things are not led back to order equally and immediately, but the lowest by the intermediary, and the inferior by the superior.  Hence we must recognize the more clearly that spiritual power surpasses in dignity and in nobility any temporal power whatever, as spiritual things surpass the temporal.  This we see very clearly also by the payment, benediction, and consecration of the tithes, but the acceptance of power itself and by the government even of things.  For with truth as our witness, it belongs to spiritual power to establish the terrestrial power and to pass judgement if it has not been good.  Thus is accomplished the prophecy of Jeremias concerning the Church and the ecclesiastical power: 'Behold to-day I have placed you over nations, and over kingdoms' and the rest.  Therefore, if the terrestrial power err, it will be judged by the spiritual power; but if a minor spiritual power err, it will be judged by a superior spiritual power; but if the highest power of all err, it can be judged only by God, and not by man, according to the testimony of the Apostle: 'The spiritual man judgeth of all things and he himself is judged by no man' [1 Cor 2:15].  This authority, however, (though it has been given to man and is exercised by man), is not human but rather divine, granted to Peter by a divine word and reaffirmed to him (Peter) and his successors by the One Whom Peter confessed, the Lord saying to Peter himself, 'Whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in Heaven' etc., [ Mt 16:19].  Therefore whoever resists this power thus ordained by God, resists the ordinance of God [Rom 13:2], unless he invent like Manicheus two beginnings, which is false and judged by us heretical, since according to the testimony of Moses, it is not in the beginnings but in the beginning that God created heaven and earth [Gen 1:1].  Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff. 

The Donation of Constantine (c.750-800)In the name of the holy and indivisible Trinity, the Father, namely, and the Son and the Holy Spirit.  The emperor Caesar Flavius Constantine in Christ Jesus, the Lord I God our Saviour, one of that same holy Trinity,-faithful merciful, supreme, beneficent, Alamannic, Gothic, Sarmatic, Germanic, Britannic, Hunic, pious, fortunate, victor and triumpher, always august: to the most holy and blessed father of fathers Sylvester, bishop of the city of and to all his successors the pontiffs , who are about to sit upon Rome and pope, the chair of St. Peter until the end of time - also to all the most reverend and of God beloved catholic bishops, subjected by this our imperial decree throughout the whole world to this same holy, Roman church, who have been established now and in all previous times-grace, peace, charitv, rejoicing, long-suffering, mercv, be with you all from God the Father almighty and from Jesus Christ his Son and from the Holy Ghost.  Our most gracious serenity desires, in clear discourse, through the page of this our imperial decree, to bring to the knowledge of all the people in the whole world what things our Saviour and Redeemer the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the most High Father, has most wonderfully seen fit to bring about through his holy apostles Peter and Paul and by the intervention of our father Sylvester, the highest pontiff and the universal pope.  First, indeed, putting forth, with the inmost confession of our heart, for the purpose of instructing the mind of all of you, our creed which we have learned from the aforesaid most blessed father and our confessor, Svlvester the universal pontiff; and then at length announcing the mercy of God which has been poured upon us. 

For we wish you to know,, as we have signified through our former imperial decree, that we have gone away, from the worship of idols, from mute and deaf images made by hand, from devilish contrivances and from all the pomps of Satan; and have arrived at the pure faith of the Christians, which is the true light and everlasting life.  Believing, according to what he-that same one, our revered supreme father and teacher, the pontiff Sylvester - has taught us, in God the Father, the almighty maker of Heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible; and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord God, through whom all things are created; and in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and vivifier of the whole creature.  We confess these, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, in such way that, in the perfect Trinity, there shall also be a fulness of divinity and a unity of power.  The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; and these three are one in Jesus Christ. 

There are therefore three forms but one power.  For God, wise in all previous time, gave forth from himself the word through which all future ages were to be born; and when, by that sole word of His wisdom, He formed the whole creation from nothing, He was with it, arranging all things in His mysterious secret place. 

Therefore, the virtues of the Heavens and all the material part of the earth having been perfected, by the wise nod of His wisdom first creating man of the clay of the earth in His own image and likeness, He placed him in a paradise of delight.  Him the ancient serpent and envious enemy, the devil, through the most bitter taste of the forbidden tree, made an exile from these joys; and, be being expelled, did not cease in many ways to cast his poisonous darts; in order that, turning the human race from the way of truth to the worship of idols, he might persuade it, namely to worship the creature and not the creator; so that, through them (the idols), he might cause those whom he might be able to entrap in his snares to be burned with him in eternal punishment.  But our Lord, pitying His creature, sending ahead His holy prophets, announcing through them the light of the future life-the coming,' that is, of His Son our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ-sent that same only begotten Son and Word of wisdom: He descending from Heaven on account of our salvation, being born of the Holy Spirit and of the Virgin Mary,-the word was made flesh and d welt among us.  He did not cease to be what He had been, but began to be what He had not been, perfect God and perfect man: as God, performing miracles; as man, sustaining human sufferings.  We so learned Him to be very man and very God by the preaching of our father Sylvester, the supreme pontiff, that we can in no wise doubt that He was very, God and very man.  And, having chosen twelve apostles, He shone with miracles before them and an innumerable multitude of people.  We confess that this same Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets; that He suffered, was crucified, on the third day arose from the dead according to the Scriptures; was received into Heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father.  Whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.  For this is our orthodox creed, placed before us by our most blessed father Sylvester, the supreme pontiff.  We exhort, therefore, all people, and all the different nations, to hold, cherish and preach this faith; and, in the name of the Holy Trinity, to obtain the grace of baptism; and, with devaout heart, to adore the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour, who with the Father and the Holy Spirit, lives and reigns through infinite ages; whom Sylvester our father, the universal pontiff, preaches.  For He himself, our Lord God, having pit on me a sinner, sent His holy apostles to visit us, and caused the light of his splendour to shine upon us.  And do ye rejoice that I, having been withdrawn from the shadow, have come to the true light and to the knowledge of truth.  For, at a time when a mighty and filthy leprosy had invaded all the flesh of my, body, and the care was administered of many physicians who came together, nor by that of any one of them did I achieve health: there came hither the priests of the Capitol, saving to me that a font should be made on the Capitol, and that I should fill this with the blood of innocent infants; and that, if I bathed in it while it was warm, I might be cleansed.  And very many innocent infants having been brought together according to their words, when the sacrilegious priests of the pagans wished them to be slaughtered and the font to be filled with their blood: Our Serenity perceiving the tears of the mothers, I straightway abhorred the deed.  And, pitying them, I ordered their own sons to be restored to them; and, giving them vehicles and gifts, sent them off rejoicing to their own.  That day having passed therefore-the silence of night having come upon us-when the time of sleep had arrived, the apostles St. Peter and Paul appear, saying to me: "Since thou hast placed a term to thy vices, and hast abhorred the pouring forth of innocent blood, we are sent by, Christ the Lord our God, to give to thee a plan for recovering thy health.  Hear, therefore, our warning, and do what we indicate to thee.  Sylvester - the bishop of the city of Rome - on Mount Serapte, fleeing they persecutions, cherishes the darkness with his clergy in the caverns of the rocks.  This one, when thou shalt have led him to thyself, will himself show thee a pool of piety; in which, when he shall have dipped thee for the third time, all that strength of the leprosy will desert thee.  And, when this shall have been done, make this return to thy Saviour, that by thy order through the whole world the churches may be restored.  Purify thyself, moreover, in this way, that, leaving all the superstition of idols, thou do adore and cherish the living and true God -- who is alone and true -- and that thou attain to the doing of His will. 

Rising, therefore, from sleep, straightway I did according to that which I bad been advised to do by, the holy apostles; and, having summoned that excellent and benignant father and our enlightener - Svlvester the universal pope-I told him all the words that had been taught me by the holy apostles; and asked him who where those gods Peter and Paul.  But he said that they where not really called gods, but apostles of our Saviour the Lord God Jesus Christ.  And again we began to ask that same most blessed pope whether he had some express image of those apostles; so that, from their likeness, we might learn that they were those whom revelation bad shown to us.  Then that same venerable father ordered the images of those same apostles to be shown by his deacon.  And, when I had looked at them, and recognized, represented in those images, the countenances of those whom I had seen in my dream: with a great noise, before all my satraps*, I confessed that they were those whom I had seen in my dream. [*  there were no such Roman officials]

Hereupon that same most blessed Sylvester our father, bishop of the city of Rome, imposed upon us a time of penance-within our Lateran palace, in the chapel, in a hair garment,-so that I might obtain pardon from our Lord God Jesus Christ our Saviour by vigils, fasts, and tears and prayers, for all things that had been impiously done and unjustly ordered by me.  Then through the imposition of the hands of the clergy, I came to the bishop himself; and there, renouncing the pomps of Satan and his works, and all idols made by hands, of my own will before all the people I confessed: that I believed in God the Father almighty, maker of Heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son our Lord, who was born of the Holy Spirit and of the Virgin Mary.  And, the font having been blessed, the wave of salvation purified me there with a triple immersion.  For there 1, being placed at the bottom of the font, saw with my own eyes a band from Heaven touching me; whence rising, clean, know that I was cleansed from all the squalor of leprosy.  And, I being raised from the venerable font-putting on white raiment, be administered to me the sign of the seven-fold holy Spirit, the unction of the holy oil; and he traced the sign of the holy cross on my brow, saying: God seals thee with the seal of His faith in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, to signalize thy faith.  All the clergy replied: "Amen."  The bishop added, "peace be with thee." 

And so, on the first day after receiving the mystery of the holy baptism, and after the cure of my body from the squalor of the leprosy, I recognized that there was no other God save the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; whom the most blessed Sylvester the pope doth preach; a trinity in one, a unity in three.  For all the gods of the nations, whom I have worshipped up to this time, are proved to be demons; works made by the hand of men; inasmuch as that same venerable father told to us most clearly how much power in Heaven and on earth He, our Saviour, conferred on his apostle St. Peter, when finding him faithful after questioning him He said: "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock (petrani) shall I build My Church, and the gates of bell shall not prevail against it."  Give heed ye powerful, and incline the ear of .your hearts to that which the good Lord and Master added to His disciple, saying: and I will give thee the keys of the kingdom of Heaven; and whatever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound also in Heaven, and whatever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed also in Heaven."  This is very wonderful and glorious, to bind and loose on earth and to have it bound and loosed in Heaven. 

And when, the blessed Sylvester preaching them, I perceived these things, and learned that by the kindness of St. Peter himself I had been entirely restored to health: I together with all our satraps and the whole senate and the nobles and all the Roman people, who are subject to the glory of our rule -considered it advisable that, as on earth he (Peter) is seen to have been constituted vicar of the Son of God, so the pontiffs, who are the representatives of that same chief of the apostles, should obtain from us and our empire the power of a supremacy greater than the earthly clemency of our imperial serenity is seen to have had conceded to it,-we choosing that same prince of the apostles, or his vicars, to be our constant intercessors with God.  And, to the extent of our earthly imperial power, we decree that his holy Roman church shall be honoured with veneration; and that, more than our empire and earthly throne, the most sacred seat of St. Peter shall be gloriously exalted; we giving to it the imperial power, and dignity of glory, and vigour and honour. 

And we ordain and decree that he shall have the supremacy as well over the four chief seats Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople* and Jerusalem, as also over all the churches of God in the -whole world.  And he who for the time being shall be pontiff of that holy Roman church shall be more exalted than, and chief over, all the priests of the whole world; and, according to his judgment, everything which is to be provided for the service of God or the stability of the faith of the Christians is to be administered.  It is indeed just, that there the holy law should have the seat of its rule where the founder of holy laws, our Saviour, told St. Peter to take the chair of the apostleship; where also, sustaining the cross, he blissfully took the cup of death and appeared as imitator of his Lord and Master; and that there the people should bend their necks at the confession of Christ's name, where their teacher, St. Paul the apostle, extending his neck for Christ, was crowned with martyrdom.  There, until the end, let them seek a teacher, where the holy body of the teacher lies; and there, prone and humiliated, let them perform I the service of the heavenly king, God our Saviour Jesus Christ, where the proud were accustomed to serve under the rule of an earthly king. [* at the time of the supposed date of the document, Constantinople had not been founded.  Its position as "chief seat" was two centuries away.] 

Meanwhile we wish all the people, of all the races and nations throughout the whole world, to know: that we have constructed within our Lateran palace, to the same Saviour our Lord God Jesus Christ, a church with a baptistry from the foundations.  And know that we have carried on our own shoulders from its foundations, twelve baskets weighted with earth, according to the number of the holy apostles.  Which holy church we command to be spoken of, cherished, venerated and preached of, as the head and summit of all the churches in the whole world-as we have commanded through our other imperial decrees.  We have also constructed the churches of St. Peter and St. Paul, chiefs of the apostles, which we have enriched with gold and silver; where also, placing their most sacred bodies with great honour, we have constructed their caskets of electrum, against which no force of the elements prevails.  And we have placed a cross of purest gold and precious gems on each of their caskets, and fastened them with golden keys.  And on these churches for the endowing of divine services we have conferred estates, and have enriched them with different objects; and, through our sacred imperial decrees, we have granted them our gift of land in the East as well as in the West; and even on the northern and southern coast;-namely in Judea, Greece, Asia, Thrace, Africa and Italy and the various islands: under this condition indeed, that all shall be administered by the hand of our most blessed father the pontiff Sylvester and his successors. 

For let all the people and the nations of the races in the whole world rejoice with us; we exhorting all of you to give unbounded thanks, together with us, to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.  For He is God in Heaven above and on earth below, who, visiting us through His holy apostles, made us worthy to receive the holy sacrament of baptism and health of body.  In return for which, to those same holy apostles, my masters, St. Peter and St. Paul; and, through them, also to St. Sylvester, our father,-the chief pontiff and universal pope of the city of Rome,-and to all the pontiffs his successors, who until the end of the world shall be about to sit in the seat of St. Peter: we concede and, by this present, do confer, our imperial Lateran palace, which is preferred to, and ranks above, all the palaces in the whole world; then a diadem, that is, the crown of our head, and at the same time the tiara; and, also, the shoulder band,-that is, the collar that usually surrounds our imperial neck; and also the purple mantle, and crimson tunic, and all the imperial raiment; and the same rank as those presiding over the imperial cavalry; conferring also the imperial sceptres, and, at the same time, the spears and standards; also the banners and different imperial ornaments, and all the advantage of our high imperial position, and the glory of our power. 

And we decree, as to those most reverend men, the clergy who serve, in different orders, that same holy Roman church, that they shall have the same advantage, distinction, power and excellence by the glory of which our most illustrious senate is adorned; that is, that they shall be made patricians and consuls,-we commanding that they shall also be decorated with the other imperial dignities.  And even as the imperial soldiery, so, we decree, shall the clergy of the holy Roman church be adorned.  And I even as the imperial power is adorned by different offices-by the distinction, that is, of chamberlains, and door keepers, and all the guards,-so we wish the holy Roman church to be adorned.  And, in order that the pontifical glory may shine forth more fully, we decree this also: that the clergy of this same holy Roman church may use saddle cloths of linen of the whitest colour; namely that their horses may be adorned and so be ridden, and that, as our senate uses shoes with goats' hair, so they may be distinguished by gleaming linen; in order that, as the celestial beings, so the terrestrial may be adorned to the glory of God.  Above all things, moreover, we give permission to that same most holy one our father Sylvester, bishop of the city of Rome and pope, and to all the most blessed pontiffs who shall come after him and succeed him in all future times-for the honour and glory of Jesus Christ our Lord,-to receive into that great Catholic and apostolic church of God, even into the number of the monastic clergy, any one from our senate, who, in free choice, of his own accord, may wish to become- a cleric; no one at all presuming thereby to act in a haughty manner. 

We also decreed this, that this same venerable one our father Sylvester, the supreme pontiff, and all the pontiffs his successors, might use and bear upon their heads-to the Praise of God and for the honour of St. Peter-the diadem; that is, the crown which we have granted him from our own head, of purest gold and precious gems. 

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But he, the most holy pope, did not at all allow that crown of gold to be used over the clerical crown which he wears to the glory of St. Peter; but we placed upon his most holy head, with our own hands, a tiara of gleaming splendour representing the glorious resurrection of our Lord.  And, holding the bridle of his horse, out of reverence for St. Peter we performed for him the duty of groom; decreeing that all the pontiffs his successors, and they alone, may use that tiara in processions. 

In imitation of our own power, in order that for that cause the supreme pontificate may not deteriorate, but may rather be adorned with power and glory even more than is the dignity of an earthly rule: behold we-giving over to the oft-mentioned most blessed pontiff, our father Sylvester the universal pope, as well our palace, as has been said, as also the city of Rome and all the provinces, districts and cities of Italy or of the western regions; and relinquishing them, by our inviolable gift, to the power and sway of himself or the pontiffs his successors-do decree, by this our godlike charter and imperial constitution, that it shall be (so) arranged; and do concede that they (the palaces, provinces etc.)  shall lawfully remain with the holy Roman church. 

Wherefore we have perceived it to be fitting that our empire and the power of our kingdom should be transferred and changed to the regions of the East; and that, in the province of Byzantium, in a most fitting place, a city should be built in our name; and that our empire should there be established.  For, where the supremacy of priests and the bead of the Christian religion has been established by a heavenly ruler, it is not just that there an earthly ruler should have jurisdiction. 

We decree, moreover, that all these things which, through this our imperial charter and through other godlike commands, we have established and confirmed, shall remain uninjured and unshaken until the end of the world.  Wherefore, before the living God, who commanded us to reign, and in the face of his terrible judgment, we conjure, through this our imperial decree, all the emperors our successors, and all our nobles, the satraps also and the most glorious senate, and all the people in the ,A-hole world now and in all times previously subject to our rule: that no one of them, in any way allow himself to oppose or disregard, or in any way seize, these things which, by our imperial sanction, have been conceded to the holy Roman church and to all its pontiffs.  If anyone, moreover,-which we do not believe - prove a scorner or despiser in this matter, he shall be subject and bound over to eternal damnation; and shall feel that the holy chiefs of the apostles of God, Peter and Paul, will be opposed to him in the present and in the future life.  And, being burned in the nethermost hell, he shall perish with the devil and all the impious. [ by what authority St. Constantine had authority over hell is not explained]

The page, moreover, of this our imperial decree, we, confirming it with our own hands, did place above the venerable body of St. Peter chief of the apostles; and there, promising to that same apostle of God that we would preserve inviolably all its provisions, and would leave in our commands to all the emperors our successors to preserve them, we did hand it over, to be enduringly and happily possessed, to our most blessed father Sylvester the supreme pontiff and universal pope, and, through him, to all the pontiffs his successors -God our Lord and our Saviour Jesus Christ consenting. 

And the imperial subscription: May the Divinity preserve you for many years, oh most holy and blessed fathers. 

Given at Rome on the third day before the Kalends of April, our master the august Flavius Constantine, for the fourth time, and Galligano, most illustrious men, being consuls. 

Btw, the Donation was forged it seems to legitimize the pope's grab for power in Italy in exchange for the supreme pontiff's legitimizing of the grab of the Frankish emperors (who spread the filioque faith) for power in Paris.  The same Lateran palace was the same place where supreme pontiff Innocent III has his rubber stamp council legitimize the sack of Constantinople. 

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The Vatican is a City-State in Italy. 

Yes.  I know.  I've been there.  Its in the middle of all those lands Constantine donated to the supreme pontiffs on pain of hellfire (the House of Savoy and the Italian state must be worried), confirmed by Mussolini. 

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It's impossible to be in communion with the Vatican. 

Your supreme pontiff calls the Crusader state a member of the "Roman church" and ex cathedra claims the temporal sword by which it forces communion.  The "holy Roman empeor" Leopold by his decree made the Orthodox Church of Transylvania in communion with the Vatican.  Your suprem pontiffs created and embraced Cuius regio, eius religio, and declared Henry VIII Defender of the Faith (ironic, no?).  And the Vatican's perennial attempt to get the Emperor of the Romans to sign the Catholic Church of the Orthodox over to the Vatican.  Etc. 

You cut and paste huge amounts of text and then toss in a one line comment that may or may not have anything to do with Catholic reality or the text that you've cut and pasted. 

Your Ultramontanist reality has little connnection to reality.  Perhaps that is why you have a hard time seeing the connections. 

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Its like teaching by innuendo...It's not particularly instructive or intellectually honest...or interesting. 

I'm sorry.  How did I mislead you to think that I was here to entertain you? 

« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 12:44:12 AM by ialmisry »

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more. A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood. If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Your Ultramontanist reality has little connnection to reality.  Perhaps that is why you have a hard time seeing the connections. 

Stop referring to us as ultramontanists.  No one else on this forum persists in only using offensive terminology except you.  If you cannot make your point without using derogatory terms, one wonders how strong your point actually is. 

Your Ultramontanist reality has little connnection to reality.  Perhaps that is why you have a hard time seeing the connections. 

Stop referring to us as ultramontanists.  No one else on this forum persists in only using offensive terminology except you.  If you cannot make your point without using derogatory terms, one wonders how strong your point actually is. 

UltramontanismA term used to denote integral and active Catholicism, because it recognizes as its spiritual head the pope, who, for the greater part of Europe, is a dweller beyond the mountains (ultra montes), that is, beyond the Alps...For Catholics it would be superfluous to ask whether Ultramontanism and Catholicism are the same thing: assuredly, those who combat Ultramontanis are in fact combating Catholicism, even when they disclaim the desire to oppose it...The war against Ultramontanism is accounted for not merely by its adversaries' denial of the genuine Catholic doctrine of the Church's power and that of her supreme ruler, but also, and even more, by the consequences of that doctrine...Nihil Obstat.  October 1, 1912.  Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor.  Imprimatur.  +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15125a.htm

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more. A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood. If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Honest question here, really.  How is "ultramontanist" derogatory?  I've read books by Roman Catholics that use that term a lot.  Can only Roman Catholics use it to refer to other Roman Catholics? ( I also don't understand about "Uniate," since my Ukrainian Eastern Catholic adviser readily called herself that, but that's another story.) 

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity. 

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why. 

A total of 18 bishops from the East signed the declarations of Florence.  A few hundred bishops in the East rejected the same. 

But those 18 were obeying the Emperor....

The Vatican is selective in its condemnation of "Caesaro-papism." 

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more. A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood. If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

You cut and paste huge amounts of text and then toss in a one line comment that may or may not have anything to do with Catholic reality or the text that you've cut and pasted. 

Your Ultramontanist reality has little connnection to reality.  Perhaps that is why you have a hard time seeing the connections. 

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Its like teaching by innuendo...It's not particularly instructive or intellectually honest...or interesting. 

I'm sorry.  How did I mislead you to think that I was here to entertain you? 

Items of interest are in no way inherently entertaining. 

Again you define things, not in terms of reality and shared communication, but to deride and dismiss. 

As I said, it is an appropriate course for monologue, but an intellectually dishonest one for dialogue. 

False statements of agreement do not dialogue make.  It's dishonest, and not only intellectually, as history shows. 

We don't have "shared communication."  The office of the papacy is an office just like the patriarchate of the Maronites, Majorarchbishop of the Ukrainians in submission to the Vatican, the Archbishop of MIilan, the Metropolitan of the Ruthenians in Pittsburgh, but the Vatican has transformed it into a supra-order of Holy Orders.  Yes, I am aware that it hasn't stated that so officially-that would be too intellectually honest-but we look at the substance of the claims, something we know from the Vatican forbidding its primates at Alexandria from taking the traditional title of that see "pope" (predating Rome's appropriating that title to itself by centuries). " Pope" doesn't mean the same for us and you, which is why your ecclesiastical community is not big enough for two popes , although you often had two or more:

Keeping it honest is the basis of honest dialogue.  Not a lumpy rug. 

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more. A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood. If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

They have no Magisterium.  They look for "Patristic consensus," which can pretty much mean whatever they want it to mean.  I remember a post awhile back where someone posted quotes by several Early Church Fathers regarding SS.  Peter and Paul in Rome and Fabio came on and dismissed them all as unreliable.  They look to the Fathers, but only the ones that back up modern day Eastern Orthodoxy. 

They have no Magisterium.  They look for "Patristic consensus," which can pretty much mean whatever they want it to mean.  I remember a post awhile back where someone posted quotes by several Early Church Fathers regarding SS.  Peter and Paul in Rome and Fabio came on and dismissed them all as unreliable.  They look to the Fathers, but only the ones that back up modern day Eastern Orthodoxy. 

And, from our point of view, your people do the same with your Development of Doctrine thing. 

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity. 

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why. 

They have no Magisterium.  They look for "Patristic consensus," which can pretty much mean whatever they want it to mean. 

If that were true, we would be more fractured than you and your Protestant kin. 

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I remember a post awhile back where someone posted quotes by several Early Church Fathers regarding SS.  Peter and Paul in Rome and Fabio came on and dismissed them all as unreliable. 

I'd have to see the specific quotes and response. 

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They look to the Fathers, but only the ones that back up modern day Eastern Orthodoxy. 

LOL.  The Orthodox Church Fathers.  All of them. 

As for your much vaunted magiserium, with all its wrangling it still hasn't managed to agree on what is an ex cathedra statement, a list of infallible statement, etc.  A total waste of time, besides making themselves look busy and authoritative. 

« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 01:30:37 PM by ialmisry »

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more. A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood. If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

If that were true, we would be more fractured than you and your Protestant kin. 

You are fractured. 

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches.  Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is.  Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." -  St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14. 

They have no Magisterium.  They look for "Patristic consensus," which can pretty much mean whatever they want it to mean.  I remember a post awhile back where someone posted quotes by several Early Church Fathers regarding SS.  Peter and Paul in Rome and Fabio came on and dismissed them all as unreliable.  They look to the Fathers, but only the ones that back up modern day Eastern Orthodoxy. 

And, from our point of view, your people do the same with your Development of Doctrine thing. 

The difference is we do not deny doctrinal development.  We believe revealed truth comes to us in three ways (Scripture, Tradition, and Magisterial Teaching).  You guys claim you have kept everything totally the same and in tact and also that you don't require a Magisterium, but then you deny certain things that were traditionally believed like that St. Peter founded the See of Rome and SS.  Peter and Paul were martyred there.  This is the traditional teaching, but it is conveniently sidestepped. 

How can you determine what teachings of the Fathers of the Church must be believed and what are just pious opinions?  For us, those teachings which the Magisterium has consistently upheld are the ones which must be believed, but how is this dealt with in Eastern Orthodoxy?  I get the impression it's similar to sola scriptura, only adding Ecumenical Councils and Patristics (i.e. the faithful can interpret for themselves what a Council or the Fathers taught). 

They have no Magisterium.  They look for "Patristic consensus," which can pretty much mean whatever they want it to mean.  I remember a post awhile back where someone posted quotes by several Early Church Fathers regarding SS.  Peter and Paul in Rome and Fabio came on and dismissed them all as unreliable.  They look to the Fathers, but only the ones that back up modern day Eastern Orthodoxy. 

And, from our point of view, your people do the same with your Development of Doctrine thing. 

The difference is we do not deny doctrinal development.  We believe revealed truth comes to us in three ways (Scripture, Tradition, and Magisterial Teaching).  You guys claim you have kept everything totally the same and in tact and also that you don't require a Magisterium, but then you deny certain things that were traditionally believed like that St. Peter founded the See of Rome and SS.  Peter and Paul were martyred there.  This is the traditional teaching, but it is conveniently sidestepped. 

How can you determine what teachings of the Fathers of the Church must be believed and what are just pious opinions?  For us, those teachings which the Magisterium has consistently upheld are the ones which must be believed, but how is this dealt with in Eastern Orthodoxy?  I get the impression it's similar to sola scriptura, only adding Ecumenical Councils and Patristics (i.e. the faithful can interpret for themselves what a Council or the Fathers taught). 

You are absolutely right.  If the EO laity decide to reject a council, then the Church rejects it.  Good example of this is the council of Florence.  While their Bishops signed on, the laity rejected it.  It's really hard to pin down how dogma is defined in Eastern Orthodoxy because Eastern Orthodoxy has so much in common with protestantism when it comes to understanding revealed truth. 

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches.  Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is.  Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." -  St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14. 

They have no Magisterium.  They look for "Patristic consensus," which can pretty much mean whatever they want it to mean.  I remember a post awhile back where someone posted quotes by several Early Church Fathers regarding SS.  Peter and Paul in Rome and Fabio came on and dismissed them all as unreliable.  They look to the Fathers, but only the ones that back up modern day Eastern Orthodoxy. 

And, from our point of view, your people do the same with your Development of Doctrine thing. 

The difference is we do not deny doctrinal development. 

No.  You deny that it changes the Faith. 

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We believe revealed truth comes to us in three ways (Scripture, Tradition, and Magisterial Teaching).  You guys claim you have kept everything totally the same and in tact and also that you don't require a Magisterium, but then you deny certain things that were traditionally believed like that St. Peter founded the See of Roma and SS.  Peter and Paul were martyred there.  This is the traditional teaching, but it is conveniently sidestepped. 

Let's say for sake of arguement Fabio did argue as you allege (I would disagree with him then).  Since St. Peter AND ST.  PAUL (the tradition held even in Rome, until Ultramontanism took over and found that inconvenient) founding the see of Rome has NO dogmatic import, by definition is not a traditional teaching nor belief.  Supposedly the 'infallible' head of your magisterium deals with only Faith and morals, and SS.  Peter and Paul founding the episcopate at Rome falls under neither heading. 

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How can you determine what teachings of the Fathers of the Church must be believed and what are just pious opinions? 

Amazing as it seems to you, over the centuries we haven't had a problem nor impass in determining such things. 

Somewhere here we have a good thread on the consensus of the Fathers, where I brought up the altar of Witness at the Jordan. 

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For us, those teachings which the Magisterium has consistently upheld are the ones which must be believed,

LOL.  But its lists are not consistent. 

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but how is this dealt with in Eastern Orthodoxy? 

Look up the thread mentioned above. 

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I get the impression it's similar to sola scriptura, only adding Ecumenical Councils and Patristics (i.e. the faithful can interpret for themselves what a Council or the Fathers taught). 

Then you have the wrong impression.  Given the caricatures that circulate in the Vatican's catechisis, I'm not supprised. 

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more. A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood. If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

They have no Magisterium.  They look for "Patristic consensus," which can pretty much mean whatever they want it to mean.  I remember a post awhile back where someone posted quotes by several Early Church Fathers regarding SS.  Peter and Paul in Rome and Fabio came on and dismissed them all as unreliable.  They look to the Fathers, but only the ones that back up modern day Eastern Orthodoxy. 

And, from our point of view, your people do the same with your Development of Doctrine thing. 

The difference is we do not deny doctrinal development.  We believe revealed truth comes to us in three ways (Scripture, Tradition, and Magisterial Teaching).  You guys claim you have kept everything totally the same and in tact and also that you don't require a Magisterium, but then you deny certain things that were traditionally believed like that St. Peter founded the See of Rome and SS.  Peter and Paul were martyred there.  This is the traditional teaching, but it is conveniently sidestepped. 

How can you determine what teachings of the Fathers of the Church must be believed and what are just pious opinions?  For us, those teachings which the Magisterium has consistently upheld are the ones which must be believed, but how is this dealt with in Eastern Orthodoxy?  I get the impression it's similar to sola scriptura, only adding Ecumenical Councils and Patristics (i.e. the faithful can interpret for themselves what a Council or the Fathers taught). 

You are absolutely right. 

LOL.  Before our very eyes, agreement on error at work. 

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If the EO laity decide to reject a council, then the Church rejects it.  Good example of this is the council of Florence.  While their Bishops signed on, the laity rejected it. 

As someone posted 18 bishops (though it might be 30) the Emperor was able to drag over to be shut up in duress in Italy-the Vatican ever selective in its condemnation of caesaro-papism-and have sign.  One, St. Mark of Ephesus refused to sign, and the 18/30 bishops who did did so contingent on a synod being held in the East and ratifying the document.  God struck the EP who signed dead within 24 hours, and the synod in the East was never held. 

That doesn't say what happened with the hundreds of Orthodox bishops who were not in the grasp of the Emperor and what they did. 

If you look at the Council of Jerusalem, presided over by St. James, who made its pronouncement (NOT St. Peter, who was present), it was conducted and promulgated in the name of the "Apostles, presbyters and brethren.  That we stand firm and hold fast the Traditions received of the Apostles is your problem, not ourse. 

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It's really hard to pin down how dogma is defined in Eastern Orthodoxy because Eastern Orthodoxy has so much in common with protestantism when it comes to understanding revealed truth. 

Funny, two millenium and we haven't had that problem.  The Arians, Nestorians, Monotheletes and Iconoclasts and Ultramontanists, being on the receiving end, didn't have that problem either, just had trouble accepting it. 

As for your Protestant siblings, the other side of the Vatican's coin, you both share the same confessionalist mentality.  You are having problems leaving that common framework.  The quia Lutherans are far more consistent than your magisterium, maybe you should talk with them. 

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more. A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood. If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth