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You guys want this so badly, but its not going to amount to anything. Nothing at all.
This is taken directly from the court documents:
Prior to trial it is difficult to determine whether Sheppard will provide sufficient evidence
supporting some elements of the public authority defense and/or the entrapment-by-estoppel
defense, such as whether Sheppard “actually relied on,” Chrestman, 525 F. Supp. 3d at 31,
statements by former President Trump. But in this case, the Court can determine, without hearing
evidence at trial, that Sheppard’s public authority defense as he describes it will fail because former
President Trump’s statements did not amount to an express or implied statement of the law.
Sheppard points to the following statements made by former President Trump in his speech:
"And after this, we’re going to walk down, and I’ll be there with you, we’re going
to walk down. . . . I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the
Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard. . . . And
they want to recertify their votes. . . . But the only way that can happen is if Mike
Pence agrees to send it back. . . . If not . . . you will have an illegitimatePresident. That’s what you’ll have. And we can’t let that happen. . . . We must
stop the steal and then we must ensure that such outrageous election fraud never
happens again. . . . And we fight. We fight like hell. And if you don’t fight like
hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore . . . . So we’re going to, we’re
going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue . . . And we’re going to the Capitol,
and we’re going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they
need to take back our country. . . . So let’s walk down Pennsylvania Ave."
Reply to Opp’n to Notice of Public Authority at 7 (emphases in original).
These words only encourage those at the rally to march to the Capitol—nothing more—
and do not address legality at all.
Before you all start hyperventilating and shaking your Mountain Dew all over the place, let me please make it clear that I am very aware of how much of a slimy, piece of trash this garbage person is.
What irritates me more than this charlatan clown and that other slimy and demented scumbag, is the millions and millions of thoughtless and lazy supporters who continue to feed them both.
You have to see this, right?
Edit: you don't see it. | [
"\"March on down to the capitol.\"\n\"Fight like hell.\" \n\"It was stolen from you.\"\n\"I'll be there with you.\"\n\"Be there, will be wild.\"\nAsked? Flat out fucking told them.",
">\n\n\"But he also said peacefully once!\" - r/conservative",
">\n\nOnly problem is to have this conversation you need to be able to comment. And that sub is a flaired-user-only circle-jerk safe-space.",
">\n\nI got a temporary ban from a subreddit I'd never heard of because I tried and failed to comment there once. 'tis a silly place",
">\n\nWas it justice served? I got a permanent ban from there and /conservative because I literally quoted Trump. That was the whole comment. Instant ban",
">\n\nSounds right",
">\n\ntrump is an unforgivable loser, \nno class \nno morals\nhe will go down as one of the most despicable Americans ever, more than the worst of all our serial killers combined because given the chance he gladly would have sacrificed any life innocent or not to keep playing \"world leader\"\nI will go to my grave never understanding how anyone could have looked at him and thought he was smart, never mind capable of running the country and risking their own lives by storming the capital . . . for HIM\n\ndonald fucking trump",
">\n\nI’ve never seen anyone with absolutely zero fucking redeeming qualities. even fucking hitler liked dogs and art. Trump is a soulless black hole from hell",
">\n\nA child who couldn't get anyone to play \"Make the baby cry\" with him? The game consisted of throwing rocks at children in strollers.",
">\n\nWho did that? Source?",
">\n\nLock him up already!",
">\n\nWe’re gonna see different variations of this title for the next 10 years.",
">\n\nI just hate how right you are good job old chap",
">\n\nI remember saying this same exact thing on a different account about 3 years ago regarding him and Russia. Got downvoted to hell lol.",
">\n\nHaha me too I have been saying it on every post because while I'm holding on to hope for justice I know it's unrealistic.",
">\n\n\nA slew of Jan. 6 defendants have sought to argue that Trump somehow blessed their decision to breach the Capitol, saying they were misled into believing their actions were legal. Though Trump has no power to permit others to violate federal laws, many in the crowd might have viewed his instructions as legal permission, they’ve argued. Those defenses have largely failed in courts, and the one jury to hear that claim — in the case of Dustin Thompson — rejected it, finding Thompson guilty on all charges.\n\nJim Jones would be jealous of the hold Trump has over millions of Americans. It's incredible that they're this lost.",
">\n\nTurns out there is no \"low IQ\" exemption for Trump followers. Storming the Capitol in an attempt to overthrow an election is against the law. Full stop.",
">\n\nAnd carries two of our most serous charges, sedition and treason.\nIt's time the DoJ started treating it as such.\nThe so called \"beauty of our legal system\" is no one is above the law.\nExcept that's completely bullshit and needs to change. This is our society, mine and yours. I'm sick of seeing shitbirds get away with everything. It's a slap in the goddamned face.",
">\n\n“Suggests”? Can we please be done with the tap dance? He did. We heard it. We ALL heard it - it’s even on tape!!",
">\n\nIf he could, Trump would have ordered (not asked) them to break the law",
">\n\n\"evidence\" like his public words we all watched while he said them in real time on live television, which was recorded for posterity",
">\n\nYou think so? Could that lead to some consequences for him on this then?",
">\n\nI was being facetious, I am getting weary of the headlines with consequences soon for obvious crimes. I am ready for the headlines of first former president to be formally charged with insurrection, and the litany of other crimes he has committed.",
">\n\nThere's no \"suggest\" about it!",
">\n\nYeah we all saw with our own eyes. Is this bizarro world? Was a failed coup attempt. The orange menace needs to be held accountable or the doj is nothing but a rich man’s playground and justice is just a meaningless buzzword.",
">\n\nThen why the fuck is the bloated scrotum still waddling free?",
">\n\nOnly in America can you call storming the Capitol to steal the election a “rally”. Calling it a riot is bad enough, but a rally makes it sound legitimate. Politico is spreading fake news.",
">\n\nEven just \"everybody march to the capitol\" is organizing an illegal gathering without a permit. It's as simple as that. Every other major protest or public event has to have permits and appropriate security in place. So calling on people to march to the capitol, without obtaining a permit or providing security, that's a crime in itself. And whatever happens during the commission of that crime, the organizer is liable for. The organizer became Donald Trump the moment he said the words.",
">\n\nI honestly don’t understand why they keep talking about this, his tax returns, and the fbi raiding the morons golf club, yet do nothing? He’s almost 80, just arrest him!",
">\n\nNeed a solid case before doing it. There’s a lot rising on the outcome of this. This is too big of a deal to jump the gun and not come as prepared as the prosecution could possibly be. One side will be angry at the end of this for sure, but what that means for the country seems like it’ll be determined by the losing side.",
">\n\nIs there anyone who honestly thinks Trump was somehow in legal possession of government documents and classified information? Imagine if instead of documents it was something else illegal to posses like drugs or guns. Is there any chance the FBI would just take them and allow the suspect to just walk around free while they \"build a case\"?",
">\n\nHe was president, it’s totally plausible. I’d think of it more like busting a major drug ring. They have knowledge of the crimes but let it continue while they build the case. If they jump the gun too soon, they could end up missing vital people or other information that could lead to a bigger bust that would get more drugs and more people off the streets. If you’ve noticed, they haven’t been solely looking at Trump, plenty of other people are potentially going down with him. The goal shouldn’t be just taking down him only, it should be to imprison any person part of this crap.",
">\n\nSuggests. Suggests? Suggests?!",
">\n\nHe will be indicted ..A lot of people are going to be upset but this is a case of ( This person whether he was the President or Congressman or Average Citizen must be held accountable for this travesty.) What kind of an example would US be if we didn't enforce laws against any attack on our Democracy.",
">\n\nWhat happens to an individual who stands up on a plane and falsely screams that there is a bomb on the plane? Trump has done the same thing and should be punished accordingly.",
">\n\nSuggests?",
">\n\n“Suggests”. How cute.",
">\n\nWell ya. Good golly it isn't that hard to connect the crazy 😜",
">\n\nI am tired of hearing about this stuff. When will Garland get moving. He’s had 2 years and only recently started to investigate. I think he was going to ignore it until the January 6 committee went public. They embarrassed him into starting an investigation because there is a two tier Justice system in the country.\nSorry. A bit of a rant.",
">\n\nWhen using the words \"Trump\" and \"the law,\" basically you can separate them with \"broke\" or \"doesn't understand.\"",
">\n\nLike this shit didn’t happen in real fucking time via twitter over a couple months. Jesus Christ!",
">\n\nF.U. We knew this two years ago when that chalatan dumpster fire commanded his sheeple on live TV",
">\n\nIf you commit crimes in someone’s name it’s still your crime.",
">\n\nWow I called it. As soon as a I saw the insurection, IDK what it was but I could just tell it was Trumps fault. Nobody else believed me but thankfully the J6 cmte investigated it for 2 years to uncover what I alone knew all along. Thankfully all the evidence is just coming out now and shocking everybody awake to the truth that Trump had something to do with it. \n/S",
">\n\nDuh!!!",
">\n\nIf Bin Laden not even claiming 9l/11 but praising it was enough to start two wars and a \"war on terror\" \nSaying \"Go ahead wage jihad my mujahadeen\" like Trump did surely is rnough",
">\n\n“TwO mOrE wEeKs”",
">\n\nScum Dems & their Scum Administration",
">\n\nFuck The Scum Dems & their SCUM ADMINISTRATION 🖕"
] |
>
What the fuck are you going on about, exactly? | [
"\"March on down to the capitol.\"\n\"Fight like hell.\" \n\"It was stolen from you.\"\n\"I'll be there with you.\"\n\"Be there, will be wild.\"\nAsked? Flat out fucking told them.",
">\n\n\"But he also said peacefully once!\" - r/conservative",
">\n\nOnly problem is to have this conversation you need to be able to comment. And that sub is a flaired-user-only circle-jerk safe-space.",
">\n\nI got a temporary ban from a subreddit I'd never heard of because I tried and failed to comment there once. 'tis a silly place",
">\n\nWas it justice served? I got a permanent ban from there and /conservative because I literally quoted Trump. That was the whole comment. Instant ban",
">\n\nSounds right",
">\n\ntrump is an unforgivable loser, \nno class \nno morals\nhe will go down as one of the most despicable Americans ever, more than the worst of all our serial killers combined because given the chance he gladly would have sacrificed any life innocent or not to keep playing \"world leader\"\nI will go to my grave never understanding how anyone could have looked at him and thought he was smart, never mind capable of running the country and risking their own lives by storming the capital . . . for HIM\n\ndonald fucking trump",
">\n\nI’ve never seen anyone with absolutely zero fucking redeeming qualities. even fucking hitler liked dogs and art. Trump is a soulless black hole from hell",
">\n\nA child who couldn't get anyone to play \"Make the baby cry\" with him? The game consisted of throwing rocks at children in strollers.",
">\n\nWho did that? Source?",
">\n\nLock him up already!",
">\n\nWe’re gonna see different variations of this title for the next 10 years.",
">\n\nI just hate how right you are good job old chap",
">\n\nI remember saying this same exact thing on a different account about 3 years ago regarding him and Russia. Got downvoted to hell lol.",
">\n\nHaha me too I have been saying it on every post because while I'm holding on to hope for justice I know it's unrealistic.",
">\n\n\nA slew of Jan. 6 defendants have sought to argue that Trump somehow blessed their decision to breach the Capitol, saying they were misled into believing their actions were legal. Though Trump has no power to permit others to violate federal laws, many in the crowd might have viewed his instructions as legal permission, they’ve argued. Those defenses have largely failed in courts, and the one jury to hear that claim — in the case of Dustin Thompson — rejected it, finding Thompson guilty on all charges.\n\nJim Jones would be jealous of the hold Trump has over millions of Americans. It's incredible that they're this lost.",
">\n\nTurns out there is no \"low IQ\" exemption for Trump followers. Storming the Capitol in an attempt to overthrow an election is against the law. Full stop.",
">\n\nAnd carries two of our most serous charges, sedition and treason.\nIt's time the DoJ started treating it as such.\nThe so called \"beauty of our legal system\" is no one is above the law.\nExcept that's completely bullshit and needs to change. This is our society, mine and yours. I'm sick of seeing shitbirds get away with everything. It's a slap in the goddamned face.",
">\n\n“Suggests”? Can we please be done with the tap dance? He did. We heard it. We ALL heard it - it’s even on tape!!",
">\n\nIf he could, Trump would have ordered (not asked) them to break the law",
">\n\n\"evidence\" like his public words we all watched while he said them in real time on live television, which was recorded for posterity",
">\n\nYou think so? Could that lead to some consequences for him on this then?",
">\n\nI was being facetious, I am getting weary of the headlines with consequences soon for obvious crimes. I am ready for the headlines of first former president to be formally charged with insurrection, and the litany of other crimes he has committed.",
">\n\nThere's no \"suggest\" about it!",
">\n\nYeah we all saw with our own eyes. Is this bizarro world? Was a failed coup attempt. The orange menace needs to be held accountable or the doj is nothing but a rich man’s playground and justice is just a meaningless buzzword.",
">\n\nThen why the fuck is the bloated scrotum still waddling free?",
">\n\nOnly in America can you call storming the Capitol to steal the election a “rally”. Calling it a riot is bad enough, but a rally makes it sound legitimate. Politico is spreading fake news.",
">\n\nEven just \"everybody march to the capitol\" is organizing an illegal gathering without a permit. It's as simple as that. Every other major protest or public event has to have permits and appropriate security in place. So calling on people to march to the capitol, without obtaining a permit or providing security, that's a crime in itself. And whatever happens during the commission of that crime, the organizer is liable for. The organizer became Donald Trump the moment he said the words.",
">\n\nI honestly don’t understand why they keep talking about this, his tax returns, and the fbi raiding the morons golf club, yet do nothing? He’s almost 80, just arrest him!",
">\n\nNeed a solid case before doing it. There’s a lot rising on the outcome of this. This is too big of a deal to jump the gun and not come as prepared as the prosecution could possibly be. One side will be angry at the end of this for sure, but what that means for the country seems like it’ll be determined by the losing side.",
">\n\nIs there anyone who honestly thinks Trump was somehow in legal possession of government documents and classified information? Imagine if instead of documents it was something else illegal to posses like drugs or guns. Is there any chance the FBI would just take them and allow the suspect to just walk around free while they \"build a case\"?",
">\n\nHe was president, it’s totally plausible. I’d think of it more like busting a major drug ring. They have knowledge of the crimes but let it continue while they build the case. If they jump the gun too soon, they could end up missing vital people or other information that could lead to a bigger bust that would get more drugs and more people off the streets. If you’ve noticed, they haven’t been solely looking at Trump, plenty of other people are potentially going down with him. The goal shouldn’t be just taking down him only, it should be to imprison any person part of this crap.",
">\n\nSuggests. Suggests? Suggests?!",
">\n\nHe will be indicted ..A lot of people are going to be upset but this is a case of ( This person whether he was the President or Congressman or Average Citizen must be held accountable for this travesty.) What kind of an example would US be if we didn't enforce laws against any attack on our Democracy.",
">\n\nWhat happens to an individual who stands up on a plane and falsely screams that there is a bomb on the plane? Trump has done the same thing and should be punished accordingly.",
">\n\nSuggests?",
">\n\n“Suggests”. How cute.",
">\n\nWell ya. Good golly it isn't that hard to connect the crazy 😜",
">\n\nI am tired of hearing about this stuff. When will Garland get moving. He’s had 2 years and only recently started to investigate. I think he was going to ignore it until the January 6 committee went public. They embarrassed him into starting an investigation because there is a two tier Justice system in the country.\nSorry. A bit of a rant.",
">\n\nWhen using the words \"Trump\" and \"the law,\" basically you can separate them with \"broke\" or \"doesn't understand.\"",
">\n\nLike this shit didn’t happen in real fucking time via twitter over a couple months. Jesus Christ!",
">\n\nF.U. We knew this two years ago when that chalatan dumpster fire commanded his sheeple on live TV",
">\n\nIf you commit crimes in someone’s name it’s still your crime.",
">\n\nWow I called it. As soon as a I saw the insurection, IDK what it was but I could just tell it was Trumps fault. Nobody else believed me but thankfully the J6 cmte investigated it for 2 years to uncover what I alone knew all along. Thankfully all the evidence is just coming out now and shocking everybody awake to the truth that Trump had something to do with it. \n/S",
">\n\nDuh!!!",
">\n\nIf Bin Laden not even claiming 9l/11 but praising it was enough to start two wars and a \"war on terror\" \nSaying \"Go ahead wage jihad my mujahadeen\" like Trump did surely is rnough",
">\n\n“TwO mOrE wEeKs”",
">\n\nScum Dems & their Scum Administration",
">\n\nFuck The Scum Dems & their SCUM ADMINISTRATION 🖕",
">\n\nYou guys want this so badly, but its not going to amount to anything. Nothing at all. \nThis is taken directly from the court documents:\n\nPrior to trial it is difficult to determine whether Sheppard will provide sufficient evidence \nsupporting some elements of the public authority defense and/or the entrapment-by-estoppel \ndefense, such as whether Sheppard “actually relied on,” Chrestman, 525 F. Supp. 3d at 31, \nstatements by former President Trump. But in this case, the Court can determine, without hearing \nevidence at trial, that Sheppard’s public authority defense as he describes it will fail because former\nPresident Trump’s statements did not amount to an express or implied statement of the law.\nSheppard points to the following statements made by former President Trump in his speech: \n\"And after this, we’re going to walk down, and I’ll be there with you, we’re going \nto walk down. . . . I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the \nCapitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard. . . . And \nthey want to recertify their votes. . . . But the only way that can happen is if Mike \nPence agrees to send it back. . . . If not . . . you will have an illegitimatePresident. That’s what you’ll have. And we can’t let that happen. . . . We must \nstop the steal and then we must ensure that such outrageous election fraud never \nhappens again. . . . And we fight. We fight like hell. And if you don’t fight like \nhell, you’re not going to have a country anymore . . . . So we’re going to, we’re \ngoing to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue . . . And we’re going to the Capitol, \nand we’re going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they \nneed to take back our country. . . . So let’s walk down Pennsylvania Ave.\"\nReply to Opp’n to Notice of Public Authority at 7 (emphases in original).\nThese words only encourage those at the rally to march to the Capitol—nothing more—\nand do not address legality at all.\n\nBefore you all start hyperventilating and shaking your Mountain Dew all over the place, let me please make it clear that I am very aware of how much of a slimy, piece of trash this garbage person is. \nWhat irritates me more than this charlatan clown and that other slimy and demented scumbag, is the millions and millions of thoughtless and lazy supporters who continue to feed them both. \nYou have to see this, right?\nEdit: you don't see it."
] |
>
As you say suggest. This kills your post. So think! | [
"\"March on down to the capitol.\"\n\"Fight like hell.\" \n\"It was stolen from you.\"\n\"I'll be there with you.\"\n\"Be there, will be wild.\"\nAsked? Flat out fucking told them.",
">\n\n\"But he also said peacefully once!\" - r/conservative",
">\n\nOnly problem is to have this conversation you need to be able to comment. And that sub is a flaired-user-only circle-jerk safe-space.",
">\n\nI got a temporary ban from a subreddit I'd never heard of because I tried and failed to comment there once. 'tis a silly place",
">\n\nWas it justice served? I got a permanent ban from there and /conservative because I literally quoted Trump. That was the whole comment. Instant ban",
">\n\nSounds right",
">\n\ntrump is an unforgivable loser, \nno class \nno morals\nhe will go down as one of the most despicable Americans ever, more than the worst of all our serial killers combined because given the chance he gladly would have sacrificed any life innocent or not to keep playing \"world leader\"\nI will go to my grave never understanding how anyone could have looked at him and thought he was smart, never mind capable of running the country and risking their own lives by storming the capital . . . for HIM\n\ndonald fucking trump",
">\n\nI’ve never seen anyone with absolutely zero fucking redeeming qualities. even fucking hitler liked dogs and art. Trump is a soulless black hole from hell",
">\n\nA child who couldn't get anyone to play \"Make the baby cry\" with him? The game consisted of throwing rocks at children in strollers.",
">\n\nWho did that? Source?",
">\n\nLock him up already!",
">\n\nWe’re gonna see different variations of this title for the next 10 years.",
">\n\nI just hate how right you are good job old chap",
">\n\nI remember saying this same exact thing on a different account about 3 years ago regarding him and Russia. Got downvoted to hell lol.",
">\n\nHaha me too I have been saying it on every post because while I'm holding on to hope for justice I know it's unrealistic.",
">\n\n\nA slew of Jan. 6 defendants have sought to argue that Trump somehow blessed their decision to breach the Capitol, saying they were misled into believing their actions were legal. Though Trump has no power to permit others to violate federal laws, many in the crowd might have viewed his instructions as legal permission, they’ve argued. Those defenses have largely failed in courts, and the one jury to hear that claim — in the case of Dustin Thompson — rejected it, finding Thompson guilty on all charges.\n\nJim Jones would be jealous of the hold Trump has over millions of Americans. It's incredible that they're this lost.",
">\n\nTurns out there is no \"low IQ\" exemption for Trump followers. Storming the Capitol in an attempt to overthrow an election is against the law. Full stop.",
">\n\nAnd carries two of our most serous charges, sedition and treason.\nIt's time the DoJ started treating it as such.\nThe so called \"beauty of our legal system\" is no one is above the law.\nExcept that's completely bullshit and needs to change. This is our society, mine and yours. I'm sick of seeing shitbirds get away with everything. It's a slap in the goddamned face.",
">\n\n“Suggests”? Can we please be done with the tap dance? He did. We heard it. We ALL heard it - it’s even on tape!!",
">\n\nIf he could, Trump would have ordered (not asked) them to break the law",
">\n\n\"evidence\" like his public words we all watched while he said them in real time on live television, which was recorded for posterity",
">\n\nYou think so? Could that lead to some consequences for him on this then?",
">\n\nI was being facetious, I am getting weary of the headlines with consequences soon for obvious crimes. I am ready for the headlines of first former president to be formally charged with insurrection, and the litany of other crimes he has committed.",
">\n\nThere's no \"suggest\" about it!",
">\n\nYeah we all saw with our own eyes. Is this bizarro world? Was a failed coup attempt. The orange menace needs to be held accountable or the doj is nothing but a rich man’s playground and justice is just a meaningless buzzword.",
">\n\nThen why the fuck is the bloated scrotum still waddling free?",
">\n\nOnly in America can you call storming the Capitol to steal the election a “rally”. Calling it a riot is bad enough, but a rally makes it sound legitimate. Politico is spreading fake news.",
">\n\nEven just \"everybody march to the capitol\" is organizing an illegal gathering without a permit. It's as simple as that. Every other major protest or public event has to have permits and appropriate security in place. So calling on people to march to the capitol, without obtaining a permit or providing security, that's a crime in itself. And whatever happens during the commission of that crime, the organizer is liable for. The organizer became Donald Trump the moment he said the words.",
">\n\nI honestly don’t understand why they keep talking about this, his tax returns, and the fbi raiding the morons golf club, yet do nothing? He’s almost 80, just arrest him!",
">\n\nNeed a solid case before doing it. There’s a lot rising on the outcome of this. This is too big of a deal to jump the gun and not come as prepared as the prosecution could possibly be. One side will be angry at the end of this for sure, but what that means for the country seems like it’ll be determined by the losing side.",
">\n\nIs there anyone who honestly thinks Trump was somehow in legal possession of government documents and classified information? Imagine if instead of documents it was something else illegal to posses like drugs or guns. Is there any chance the FBI would just take them and allow the suspect to just walk around free while they \"build a case\"?",
">\n\nHe was president, it’s totally plausible. I’d think of it more like busting a major drug ring. They have knowledge of the crimes but let it continue while they build the case. If they jump the gun too soon, they could end up missing vital people or other information that could lead to a bigger bust that would get more drugs and more people off the streets. If you’ve noticed, they haven’t been solely looking at Trump, plenty of other people are potentially going down with him. The goal shouldn’t be just taking down him only, it should be to imprison any person part of this crap.",
">\n\nSuggests. Suggests? Suggests?!",
">\n\nHe will be indicted ..A lot of people are going to be upset but this is a case of ( This person whether he was the President or Congressman or Average Citizen must be held accountable for this travesty.) What kind of an example would US be if we didn't enforce laws against any attack on our Democracy.",
">\n\nWhat happens to an individual who stands up on a plane and falsely screams that there is a bomb on the plane? Trump has done the same thing and should be punished accordingly.",
">\n\nSuggests?",
">\n\n“Suggests”. How cute.",
">\n\nWell ya. Good golly it isn't that hard to connect the crazy 😜",
">\n\nI am tired of hearing about this stuff. When will Garland get moving. He’s had 2 years and only recently started to investigate. I think he was going to ignore it until the January 6 committee went public. They embarrassed him into starting an investigation because there is a two tier Justice system in the country.\nSorry. A bit of a rant.",
">\n\nWhen using the words \"Trump\" and \"the law,\" basically you can separate them with \"broke\" or \"doesn't understand.\"",
">\n\nLike this shit didn’t happen in real fucking time via twitter over a couple months. Jesus Christ!",
">\n\nF.U. We knew this two years ago when that chalatan dumpster fire commanded his sheeple on live TV",
">\n\nIf you commit crimes in someone’s name it’s still your crime.",
">\n\nWow I called it. As soon as a I saw the insurection, IDK what it was but I could just tell it was Trumps fault. Nobody else believed me but thankfully the J6 cmte investigated it for 2 years to uncover what I alone knew all along. Thankfully all the evidence is just coming out now and shocking everybody awake to the truth that Trump had something to do with it. \n/S",
">\n\nDuh!!!",
">\n\nIf Bin Laden not even claiming 9l/11 but praising it was enough to start two wars and a \"war on terror\" \nSaying \"Go ahead wage jihad my mujahadeen\" like Trump did surely is rnough",
">\n\n“TwO mOrE wEeKs”",
">\n\nScum Dems & their Scum Administration",
">\n\nFuck The Scum Dems & their SCUM ADMINISTRATION 🖕",
">\n\nYou guys want this so badly, but its not going to amount to anything. Nothing at all. \nThis is taken directly from the court documents:\n\nPrior to trial it is difficult to determine whether Sheppard will provide sufficient evidence \nsupporting some elements of the public authority defense and/or the entrapment-by-estoppel \ndefense, such as whether Sheppard “actually relied on,” Chrestman, 525 F. Supp. 3d at 31, \nstatements by former President Trump. But in this case, the Court can determine, without hearing \nevidence at trial, that Sheppard’s public authority defense as he describes it will fail because former\nPresident Trump’s statements did not amount to an express or implied statement of the law.\nSheppard points to the following statements made by former President Trump in his speech: \n\"And after this, we’re going to walk down, and I’ll be there with you, we’re going \nto walk down. . . . I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the \nCapitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard. . . . And \nthey want to recertify their votes. . . . But the only way that can happen is if Mike \nPence agrees to send it back. . . . If not . . . you will have an illegitimatePresident. That’s what you’ll have. And we can’t let that happen. . . . We must \nstop the steal and then we must ensure that such outrageous election fraud never \nhappens again. . . . And we fight. We fight like hell. And if you don’t fight like \nhell, you’re not going to have a country anymore . . . . So we’re going to, we’re \ngoing to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue . . . And we’re going to the Capitol, \nand we’re going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they \nneed to take back our country. . . . So let’s walk down Pennsylvania Ave.\"\nReply to Opp’n to Notice of Public Authority at 7 (emphases in original).\nThese words only encourage those at the rally to march to the Capitol—nothing more—\nand do not address legality at all.\n\nBefore you all start hyperventilating and shaking your Mountain Dew all over the place, let me please make it clear that I am very aware of how much of a slimy, piece of trash this garbage person is. \nWhat irritates me more than this charlatan clown and that other slimy and demented scumbag, is the millions and millions of thoughtless and lazy supporters who continue to feed them both. \nYou have to see this, right?\nEdit: you don't see it.",
">\n\nWhat the fuck are you going on about, exactly?"
] |
> | [
"\"March on down to the capitol.\"\n\"Fight like hell.\" \n\"It was stolen from you.\"\n\"I'll be there with you.\"\n\"Be there, will be wild.\"\nAsked? Flat out fucking told them.",
">\n\n\"But he also said peacefully once!\" - r/conservative",
">\n\nOnly problem is to have this conversation you need to be able to comment. And that sub is a flaired-user-only circle-jerk safe-space.",
">\n\nI got a temporary ban from a subreddit I'd never heard of because I tried and failed to comment there once. 'tis a silly place",
">\n\nWas it justice served? I got a permanent ban from there and /conservative because I literally quoted Trump. That was the whole comment. Instant ban",
">\n\nSounds right",
">\n\ntrump is an unforgivable loser, \nno class \nno morals\nhe will go down as one of the most despicable Americans ever, more than the worst of all our serial killers combined because given the chance he gladly would have sacrificed any life innocent or not to keep playing \"world leader\"\nI will go to my grave never understanding how anyone could have looked at him and thought he was smart, never mind capable of running the country and risking their own lives by storming the capital . . . for HIM\n\ndonald fucking trump",
">\n\nI’ve never seen anyone with absolutely zero fucking redeeming qualities. even fucking hitler liked dogs and art. Trump is a soulless black hole from hell",
">\n\nA child who couldn't get anyone to play \"Make the baby cry\" with him? The game consisted of throwing rocks at children in strollers.",
">\n\nWho did that? Source?",
">\n\nLock him up already!",
">\n\nWe’re gonna see different variations of this title for the next 10 years.",
">\n\nI just hate how right you are good job old chap",
">\n\nI remember saying this same exact thing on a different account about 3 years ago regarding him and Russia. Got downvoted to hell lol.",
">\n\nHaha me too I have been saying it on every post because while I'm holding on to hope for justice I know it's unrealistic.",
">\n\n\nA slew of Jan. 6 defendants have sought to argue that Trump somehow blessed their decision to breach the Capitol, saying they were misled into believing their actions were legal. Though Trump has no power to permit others to violate federal laws, many in the crowd might have viewed his instructions as legal permission, they’ve argued. Those defenses have largely failed in courts, and the one jury to hear that claim — in the case of Dustin Thompson — rejected it, finding Thompson guilty on all charges.\n\nJim Jones would be jealous of the hold Trump has over millions of Americans. It's incredible that they're this lost.",
">\n\nTurns out there is no \"low IQ\" exemption for Trump followers. Storming the Capitol in an attempt to overthrow an election is against the law. Full stop.",
">\n\nAnd carries two of our most serous charges, sedition and treason.\nIt's time the DoJ started treating it as such.\nThe so called \"beauty of our legal system\" is no one is above the law.\nExcept that's completely bullshit and needs to change. This is our society, mine and yours. I'm sick of seeing shitbirds get away with everything. It's a slap in the goddamned face.",
">\n\n“Suggests”? Can we please be done with the tap dance? He did. We heard it. We ALL heard it - it’s even on tape!!",
">\n\nIf he could, Trump would have ordered (not asked) them to break the law",
">\n\n\"evidence\" like his public words we all watched while he said them in real time on live television, which was recorded for posterity",
">\n\nYou think so? Could that lead to some consequences for him on this then?",
">\n\nI was being facetious, I am getting weary of the headlines with consequences soon for obvious crimes. I am ready for the headlines of first former president to be formally charged with insurrection, and the litany of other crimes he has committed.",
">\n\nThere's no \"suggest\" about it!",
">\n\nYeah we all saw with our own eyes. Is this bizarro world? Was a failed coup attempt. The orange menace needs to be held accountable or the doj is nothing but a rich man’s playground and justice is just a meaningless buzzword.",
">\n\nThen why the fuck is the bloated scrotum still waddling free?",
">\n\nOnly in America can you call storming the Capitol to steal the election a “rally”. Calling it a riot is bad enough, but a rally makes it sound legitimate. Politico is spreading fake news.",
">\n\nEven just \"everybody march to the capitol\" is organizing an illegal gathering without a permit. It's as simple as that. Every other major protest or public event has to have permits and appropriate security in place. So calling on people to march to the capitol, without obtaining a permit or providing security, that's a crime in itself. And whatever happens during the commission of that crime, the organizer is liable for. The organizer became Donald Trump the moment he said the words.",
">\n\nI honestly don’t understand why they keep talking about this, his tax returns, and the fbi raiding the morons golf club, yet do nothing? He’s almost 80, just arrest him!",
">\n\nNeed a solid case before doing it. There’s a lot rising on the outcome of this. This is too big of a deal to jump the gun and not come as prepared as the prosecution could possibly be. One side will be angry at the end of this for sure, but what that means for the country seems like it’ll be determined by the losing side.",
">\n\nIs there anyone who honestly thinks Trump was somehow in legal possession of government documents and classified information? Imagine if instead of documents it was something else illegal to posses like drugs or guns. Is there any chance the FBI would just take them and allow the suspect to just walk around free while they \"build a case\"?",
">\n\nHe was president, it’s totally plausible. I’d think of it more like busting a major drug ring. They have knowledge of the crimes but let it continue while they build the case. If they jump the gun too soon, they could end up missing vital people or other information that could lead to a bigger bust that would get more drugs and more people off the streets. If you’ve noticed, they haven’t been solely looking at Trump, plenty of other people are potentially going down with him. The goal shouldn’t be just taking down him only, it should be to imprison any person part of this crap.",
">\n\nSuggests. Suggests? Suggests?!",
">\n\nHe will be indicted ..A lot of people are going to be upset but this is a case of ( This person whether he was the President or Congressman or Average Citizen must be held accountable for this travesty.) What kind of an example would US be if we didn't enforce laws against any attack on our Democracy.",
">\n\nWhat happens to an individual who stands up on a plane and falsely screams that there is a bomb on the plane? Trump has done the same thing and should be punished accordingly.",
">\n\nSuggests?",
">\n\n“Suggests”. How cute.",
">\n\nWell ya. Good golly it isn't that hard to connect the crazy 😜",
">\n\nI am tired of hearing about this stuff. When will Garland get moving. He’s had 2 years and only recently started to investigate. I think he was going to ignore it until the January 6 committee went public. They embarrassed him into starting an investigation because there is a two tier Justice system in the country.\nSorry. A bit of a rant.",
">\n\nWhen using the words \"Trump\" and \"the law,\" basically you can separate them with \"broke\" or \"doesn't understand.\"",
">\n\nLike this shit didn’t happen in real fucking time via twitter over a couple months. Jesus Christ!",
">\n\nF.U. We knew this two years ago when that chalatan dumpster fire commanded his sheeple on live TV",
">\n\nIf you commit crimes in someone’s name it’s still your crime.",
">\n\nWow I called it. As soon as a I saw the insurection, IDK what it was but I could just tell it was Trumps fault. Nobody else believed me but thankfully the J6 cmte investigated it for 2 years to uncover what I alone knew all along. Thankfully all the evidence is just coming out now and shocking everybody awake to the truth that Trump had something to do with it. \n/S",
">\n\nDuh!!!",
">\n\nIf Bin Laden not even claiming 9l/11 but praising it was enough to start two wars and a \"war on terror\" \nSaying \"Go ahead wage jihad my mujahadeen\" like Trump did surely is rnough",
">\n\n“TwO mOrE wEeKs”",
">\n\nScum Dems & their Scum Administration",
">\n\nFuck The Scum Dems & their SCUM ADMINISTRATION 🖕",
">\n\nYou guys want this so badly, but its not going to amount to anything. Nothing at all. \nThis is taken directly from the court documents:\n\nPrior to trial it is difficult to determine whether Sheppard will provide sufficient evidence \nsupporting some elements of the public authority defense and/or the entrapment-by-estoppel \ndefense, such as whether Sheppard “actually relied on,” Chrestman, 525 F. Supp. 3d at 31, \nstatements by former President Trump. But in this case, the Court can determine, without hearing \nevidence at trial, that Sheppard’s public authority defense as he describes it will fail because former\nPresident Trump’s statements did not amount to an express or implied statement of the law.\nSheppard points to the following statements made by former President Trump in his speech: \n\"And after this, we’re going to walk down, and I’ll be there with you, we’re going \nto walk down. . . . I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the \nCapitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard. . . . And \nthey want to recertify their votes. . . . But the only way that can happen is if Mike \nPence agrees to send it back. . . . If not . . . you will have an illegitimatePresident. That’s what you’ll have. And we can’t let that happen. . . . We must \nstop the steal and then we must ensure that such outrageous election fraud never \nhappens again. . . . And we fight. We fight like hell. And if you don’t fight like \nhell, you’re not going to have a country anymore . . . . So we’re going to, we’re \ngoing to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue . . . And we’re going to the Capitol, \nand we’re going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they \nneed to take back our country. . . . So let’s walk down Pennsylvania Ave.\"\nReply to Opp’n to Notice of Public Authority at 7 (emphases in original).\nThese words only encourage those at the rally to march to the Capitol—nothing more—\nand do not address legality at all.\n\nBefore you all start hyperventilating and shaking your Mountain Dew all over the place, let me please make it clear that I am very aware of how much of a slimy, piece of trash this garbage person is. \nWhat irritates me more than this charlatan clown and that other slimy and demented scumbag, is the millions and millions of thoughtless and lazy supporters who continue to feed them both. \nYou have to see this, right?\nEdit: you don't see it.",
">\n\nWhat the fuck are you going on about, exactly?",
">\n\nAs you say suggest. This kills your post. So think!"
] |
This is a friendly reminder to read our rules.
Remember, /r/Showerthoughts is for showerthoughts, not "thoughts had in the shower!"
(For an explanation of what a "showerthought" is, please read this page.)
Rule-breaking posts may result in bans. | [] |
> | [
"This is a friendly reminder to read our rules.\nRemember, /r/Showerthoughts is for showerthoughts, not \"thoughts had in the shower!\"\n(For an explanation of what a \"showerthought\" is, please read this page.)\nRule-breaking posts may result in bans."
] |
Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender.
The seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter.
It seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own.
RE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you.
It is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.
Also, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does. | [] |
>
(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.
And yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.
I guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does."
] |
>
Seems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined.
But someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out.
I also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to."
] |
>
Someone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.
Trans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the "forced" choice.
This is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place? | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways."
] |
>
The issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals.
You can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of "dysphoria" is individual to the person. What are we left with?
Well, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of "dysphoria" mean besides, "Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, "Behavior has causes." Or, "Identity has causes." Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.
You can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?"
] |
>
This was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.
My goal with this post definitely wasn't to "gatekeep" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.
I typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true."
] |
>
Okay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind."
] |
>
A lot of modern day "mainstream" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria
So, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.
I think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as "not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.
Usually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of "wrongness" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.
For example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.
My point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.
It's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves "My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.
If we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans."
] |
>
Wait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys? | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it."
] |
>
Wait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?
Even if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.
Surely there's some restrictions on this?
Why should there be? Their body, their choice. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?"
] |
>
Why should there be? Their body, their choice.
Yes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender?
I don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice."
] |
>
Yes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender?
Here's the part of OP I'm replying to:
I believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?
It's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.
I don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.
It's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them."
] |
>
Do you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria? | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk."
] |
>
This source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case? | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?"
] |
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Lawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?"
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Can you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it."
] |
>
That's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text."
] |
>
Non-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria."
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I tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing"
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I believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.
I agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.
Gender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start.
However, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.
Those are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.
So if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is?
This is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs"
] |
>
Going further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.
Which is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory."
] |
>
I just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this! | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them."
] |
>
The easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!"
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But this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality). | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be."
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Sure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality)."
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Implying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one? | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter."
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Sure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?"
] |
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So the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated? | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one."
] |
>
If they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?"
] |
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Do many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such."
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If you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue? | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then."
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So, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman? | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?"
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What about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling "neither" or "between" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)
This view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria.
Other than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?"
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I think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.
And yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome."
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This is the best comment in this thread. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it."
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Suppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread."
] |
>
First of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man "transitions" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria."
] |
>
"Trans" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness."
] |
>
A transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth."
] |
>
This is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one."
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What is a woman? | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman."
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You...don't know what a woman is? | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?"
] |
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I'd love to hear your definition | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?"
] |
>
To give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word "woman" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word "woman") than by a definition in English. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition"
] |
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So you can’t define it? | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English."
] |
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Here's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?
Edit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of "sure, but that's obviously not what I meant". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?"
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Hi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress."
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"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it."
] |
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"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient."
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If a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.
Does that mean they're not trans? | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted."
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Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?
A. Not all trans people transition or need or want to.
B. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image.
C. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.
Most importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.
What medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports? | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?"
] |
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Not all trans people transition or need or want to.
How does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex? | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?"
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Have you ever looked up the term "transgender?" | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?"
] |
>
Actually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing? | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\""
] |
>
Don't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it? | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?"
] |
>
Not if I'm already familiar with the word, no.
I just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.
I can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women? | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?"
] |
>
Not if I'm already familiar with the word, no.
How are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?
I just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.
Complex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.
If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.
You most definitely do not understand this correctly.
I can see now why women are up in arms about this.
Are they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.
Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?
Why on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time? | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?"
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"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?"
] |
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Many people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards."
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Google defines gender dysphoria as the "psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity."
Ok, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.
Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?
You generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria."
] |
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Gender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?
Why do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms."
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Could you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.
I associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.
Once someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel? | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it."
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ETA: everyone in the comments jumped on the argument of a post-everything trans person no longer feeling dysphoric. I will explain my stance on that here: if someone is ill and they receive continuous medication to block out/alleviate side effects of that illness, are they no longer ill? The answer is no.
So, this comparison doesn't really work.
Taking continued medication is not the same as a gender transition. Continued medication to treat an illness has to be done on an ongoing basis, but a gender transition to overcome gender dysphoria is more like a one-and-done procedure.
Your view would be more correct if it said "to undergo a gender transition", a one-time action, instead of "be transgender", a continuous state of being. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it.",
">\n\nCould you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.\nI associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.\nOnce someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel?"
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I guess, technically speaking, that is somewhat of my stance. I think transitioning should be allowed only in the case of gender dysphoria, and those who experience gender dysphoria are transgender. I don't quite understand how someone could be transgender and not experience dysphoria when that is what being transgender is — a biological issue. The continued question I keep asking is "why would someone transition if they never experienced dysphoria to begin with?" so I suppose that does correlate with gender dysphoria and transitioning.
Also, no, it is not a one-time solution type of thing. You need to take hormones monthly/weekly or your body will switch back to its biological sex. It requires continued treatment. If you stop taking hormones, a lot of the progress you made will be reverted. That is why I compared it to an illness.
The only exception is when you get that sex making organ removed (i.e ovaries for trans men), but even then, the ongoing use of medicine is required even more because otherwise your body won't have the hormones you need to continue on. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it.",
">\n\nCould you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.\nI associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.\nOnce someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel?",
">\n\n\nETA: everyone in the comments jumped on the argument of a post-everything trans person no longer feeling dysphoric. I will explain my stance on that here: if someone is ill and they receive continuous medication to block out/alleviate side effects of that illness, are they no longer ill? The answer is no.\n\nSo, this comparison doesn't really work.\nTaking continued medication is not the same as a gender transition. Continued medication to treat an illness has to be done on an ongoing basis, but a gender transition to overcome gender dysphoria is more like a one-and-done procedure.\nYour view would be more correct if it said \"to undergo a gender transition\", a one-time action, instead of \"be transgender\", a continuous state of being."
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Non-binary people are transgender under your definition of gender dysphoria since their assigned sex at birth is incongruent with their gender identity. Some non-binary folks , however, myself included, hold out the hope of living in a society without gender identities. In that society, the concept of gender dysphoria would be incoherent; instead, everyone would have varying feelings about their bodies (The difference is between, on the one hand, being able to take for granted that some people have penises and feel okay about that, whereas other people have penises and don't, and, on the other, thinking that people who have penises and are not okay with them want to become women). Those with negative body feelings might undergo body modification surgery—but it wouldn't be gender re-assignment or affirming surgery in a society without gender.
My argument is, first, that if it's possible to conceive of such a society, then it's possible to conceive of a transgender person who does not experience gender dysphoria; instead, they merely experience body dysphoria. Second, I also think that contemporary genderfuckery—like drag that isn't trying to be "fish" or "real" (that is, to pass), public kink, and, heck, lolita and other androgynous-to-high-femme fashion subcultures—can be thought of as a proof-of-concept for such a society. I mean, just like how I can order a unisex Lolita dress in my size right now, maybe one day I can go into a clothing store where clothing is organized by type rather than by men's and women's. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it.",
">\n\nCould you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.\nI associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.\nOnce someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel?",
">\n\n\nETA: everyone in the comments jumped on the argument of a post-everything trans person no longer feeling dysphoric. I will explain my stance on that here: if someone is ill and they receive continuous medication to block out/alleviate side effects of that illness, are they no longer ill? The answer is no.\n\nSo, this comparison doesn't really work.\nTaking continued medication is not the same as a gender transition. Continued medication to treat an illness has to be done on an ongoing basis, but a gender transition to overcome gender dysphoria is more like a one-and-done procedure.\nYour view would be more correct if it said \"to undergo a gender transition\", a one-time action, instead of \"be transgender\", a continuous state of being.",
">\n\nI guess, technically speaking, that is somewhat of my stance. I think transitioning should be allowed only in the case of gender dysphoria, and those who experience gender dysphoria are transgender. I don't quite understand how someone could be transgender and not experience dysphoria when that is what being transgender is — a biological issue. The continued question I keep asking is \"why would someone transition if they never experienced dysphoria to begin with?\" so I suppose that does correlate with gender dysphoria and transitioning.\nAlso, no, it is not a one-time solution type of thing. You need to take hormones monthly/weekly or your body will switch back to its biological sex. It requires continued treatment. If you stop taking hormones, a lot of the progress you made will be reverted. That is why I compared it to an illness.\nThe only exception is when you get that sex making organ removed (i.e ovaries for trans men), but even then, the ongoing use of medicine is required even more because otherwise your body won't have the hormones you need to continue on."
] |
>
Yes, I believe nonbinary folk are transgender.
I'm sorry, but I don't think I understand your dreams of a society without gender identities. It sounds like a recipe for disaster if there is lack of education on biology. Plus, the lack of teachings about transgenderism is what causes transphobia in the first place. Same with racism, misogyny, etc. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it.",
">\n\nCould you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.\nI associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.\nOnce someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel?",
">\n\n\nETA: everyone in the comments jumped on the argument of a post-everything trans person no longer feeling dysphoric. I will explain my stance on that here: if someone is ill and they receive continuous medication to block out/alleviate side effects of that illness, are they no longer ill? The answer is no.\n\nSo, this comparison doesn't really work.\nTaking continued medication is not the same as a gender transition. Continued medication to treat an illness has to be done on an ongoing basis, but a gender transition to overcome gender dysphoria is more like a one-and-done procedure.\nYour view would be more correct if it said \"to undergo a gender transition\", a one-time action, instead of \"be transgender\", a continuous state of being.",
">\n\nI guess, technically speaking, that is somewhat of my stance. I think transitioning should be allowed only in the case of gender dysphoria, and those who experience gender dysphoria are transgender. I don't quite understand how someone could be transgender and not experience dysphoria when that is what being transgender is — a biological issue. The continued question I keep asking is \"why would someone transition if they never experienced dysphoria to begin with?\" so I suppose that does correlate with gender dysphoria and transitioning.\nAlso, no, it is not a one-time solution type of thing. You need to take hormones monthly/weekly or your body will switch back to its biological sex. It requires continued treatment. If you stop taking hormones, a lot of the progress you made will be reverted. That is why I compared it to an illness.\nThe only exception is when you get that sex making organ removed (i.e ovaries for trans men), but even then, the ongoing use of medicine is required even more because otherwise your body won't have the hormones you need to continue on.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are transgender under your definition of gender dysphoria since their assigned sex at birth is incongruent with their gender identity. Some non-binary folks , however, myself included, hold out the hope of living in a society without gender identities. In that society, the concept of gender dysphoria would be incoherent; instead, everyone would have varying feelings about their bodies (The difference is between, on the one hand, being able to take for granted that some people have penises and feel okay about that, whereas other people have penises and don't, and, on the other, thinking that people who have penises and are not okay with them want to become women). Those with negative body feelings might undergo body modification surgery—but it wouldn't be gender re-assignment or affirming surgery in a society without gender. \nMy argument is, first, that if it's possible to conceive of such a society, then it's possible to conceive of a transgender person who does not experience gender dysphoria; instead, they merely experience body dysphoria. Second, I also think that contemporary genderfuckery—like drag that isn't trying to be \"fish\" or \"real\" (that is, to pass), public kink, and, heck, lolita and other androgynous-to-high-femme fashion subcultures—can be thought of as a proof-of-concept for such a society. I mean, just like how I can order a unisex Lolita dress in my size right now, maybe one day I can go into a clothing store where clothing is organized by type rather than by men's and women's."
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So it seems that you're not fully convinced that gender is a social construct, which is not to say that it's not very consequential for how people live their lives. (This might be why you're getting pushback in queer circles, by the way; and I mean "queer" not, like, mainstream gay such as Pete Buttigieg, etc.)
One way of grasping that gender is wholly social is to think about animals. There are people who refer to all cats as female and all dogs as male, that is, with respective "she" and "he" pronouns, gendered descriptions ("handsome," "pretty") etc. Any dog regardless of what genitalia it actually has can be referred to as if it were a "boy" dog; this would suggest that, unlike with people, there is no need to interpret physical appearance as if it indicated the kind of genitals. That dogs can be "boys" even after we flip them over and find (gasp) a vagina suggests that, first, genitalia do not necessarily indicate gender but only do so under contingent social conditions (e.g., genitalia on people), and, second, that, gender is not tied to biology but, rather, to what we understand biology to mean. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it.",
">\n\nCould you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.\nI associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.\nOnce someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel?",
">\n\n\nETA: everyone in the comments jumped on the argument of a post-everything trans person no longer feeling dysphoric. I will explain my stance on that here: if someone is ill and they receive continuous medication to block out/alleviate side effects of that illness, are they no longer ill? The answer is no.\n\nSo, this comparison doesn't really work.\nTaking continued medication is not the same as a gender transition. Continued medication to treat an illness has to be done on an ongoing basis, but a gender transition to overcome gender dysphoria is more like a one-and-done procedure.\nYour view would be more correct if it said \"to undergo a gender transition\", a one-time action, instead of \"be transgender\", a continuous state of being.",
">\n\nI guess, technically speaking, that is somewhat of my stance. I think transitioning should be allowed only in the case of gender dysphoria, and those who experience gender dysphoria are transgender. I don't quite understand how someone could be transgender and not experience dysphoria when that is what being transgender is — a biological issue. The continued question I keep asking is \"why would someone transition if they never experienced dysphoria to begin with?\" so I suppose that does correlate with gender dysphoria and transitioning.\nAlso, no, it is not a one-time solution type of thing. You need to take hormones monthly/weekly or your body will switch back to its biological sex. It requires continued treatment. If you stop taking hormones, a lot of the progress you made will be reverted. That is why I compared it to an illness.\nThe only exception is when you get that sex making organ removed (i.e ovaries for trans men), but even then, the ongoing use of medicine is required even more because otherwise your body won't have the hormones you need to continue on.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are transgender under your definition of gender dysphoria since their assigned sex at birth is incongruent with their gender identity. Some non-binary folks , however, myself included, hold out the hope of living in a society without gender identities. In that society, the concept of gender dysphoria would be incoherent; instead, everyone would have varying feelings about their bodies (The difference is between, on the one hand, being able to take for granted that some people have penises and feel okay about that, whereas other people have penises and don't, and, on the other, thinking that people who have penises and are not okay with them want to become women). Those with negative body feelings might undergo body modification surgery—but it wouldn't be gender re-assignment or affirming surgery in a society without gender. \nMy argument is, first, that if it's possible to conceive of such a society, then it's possible to conceive of a transgender person who does not experience gender dysphoria; instead, they merely experience body dysphoria. Second, I also think that contemporary genderfuckery—like drag that isn't trying to be \"fish\" or \"real\" (that is, to pass), public kink, and, heck, lolita and other androgynous-to-high-femme fashion subcultures—can be thought of as a proof-of-concept for such a society. I mean, just like how I can order a unisex Lolita dress in my size right now, maybe one day I can go into a clothing store where clothing is organized by type rather than by men's and women's.",
">\n\nYes, I believe nonbinary folk are transgender. \nI'm sorry, but I don't think I understand your dreams of a society without gender identities. It sounds like a recipe for disaster if there is lack of education on biology. Plus, the lack of teachings about transgenderism is what causes transphobia in the first place. Same with racism, misogyny, etc."
] |
>
So you're defining gender dysphoria in a post hoc way, if someone transitions then they have gender dysphoria, whether they say they're perfectly comfortable as they are or not.
So... what would change your mind? Because the way you're defining it makes this a non-falsifiable claim, you can always claim someone has dysphoria regardless of their testimony to the contrary.
Or, how do you know someone has gender dysphoria? | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it.",
">\n\nCould you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.\nI associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.\nOnce someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel?",
">\n\n\nETA: everyone in the comments jumped on the argument of a post-everything trans person no longer feeling dysphoric. I will explain my stance on that here: if someone is ill and they receive continuous medication to block out/alleviate side effects of that illness, are they no longer ill? The answer is no.\n\nSo, this comparison doesn't really work.\nTaking continued medication is not the same as a gender transition. Continued medication to treat an illness has to be done on an ongoing basis, but a gender transition to overcome gender dysphoria is more like a one-and-done procedure.\nYour view would be more correct if it said \"to undergo a gender transition\", a one-time action, instead of \"be transgender\", a continuous state of being.",
">\n\nI guess, technically speaking, that is somewhat of my stance. I think transitioning should be allowed only in the case of gender dysphoria, and those who experience gender dysphoria are transgender. I don't quite understand how someone could be transgender and not experience dysphoria when that is what being transgender is — a biological issue. The continued question I keep asking is \"why would someone transition if they never experienced dysphoria to begin with?\" so I suppose that does correlate with gender dysphoria and transitioning.\nAlso, no, it is not a one-time solution type of thing. You need to take hormones monthly/weekly or your body will switch back to its biological sex. It requires continued treatment. If you stop taking hormones, a lot of the progress you made will be reverted. That is why I compared it to an illness.\nThe only exception is when you get that sex making organ removed (i.e ovaries for trans men), but even then, the ongoing use of medicine is required even more because otherwise your body won't have the hormones you need to continue on.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are transgender under your definition of gender dysphoria since their assigned sex at birth is incongruent with their gender identity. Some non-binary folks , however, myself included, hold out the hope of living in a society without gender identities. In that society, the concept of gender dysphoria would be incoherent; instead, everyone would have varying feelings about their bodies (The difference is between, on the one hand, being able to take for granted that some people have penises and feel okay about that, whereas other people have penises and don't, and, on the other, thinking that people who have penises and are not okay with them want to become women). Those with negative body feelings might undergo body modification surgery—but it wouldn't be gender re-assignment or affirming surgery in a society without gender. \nMy argument is, first, that if it's possible to conceive of such a society, then it's possible to conceive of a transgender person who does not experience gender dysphoria; instead, they merely experience body dysphoria. Second, I also think that contemporary genderfuckery—like drag that isn't trying to be \"fish\" or \"real\" (that is, to pass), public kink, and, heck, lolita and other androgynous-to-high-femme fashion subcultures—can be thought of as a proof-of-concept for such a society. I mean, just like how I can order a unisex Lolita dress in my size right now, maybe one day I can go into a clothing store where clothing is organized by type rather than by men's and women's.",
">\n\nYes, I believe nonbinary folk are transgender. \nI'm sorry, but I don't think I understand your dreams of a society without gender identities. It sounds like a recipe for disaster if there is lack of education on biology. Plus, the lack of teachings about transgenderism is what causes transphobia in the first place. Same with racism, misogyny, etc.",
">\n\nSo it seems that you're not fully convinced that gender is a social construct, which is not to say that it's not very consequential for how people live their lives. (This might be why you're getting pushback in queer circles, by the way; and I mean \"queer\" not, like, mainstream gay such as Pete Buttigieg, etc.)\nOne way of grasping that gender is wholly social is to think about animals. There are people who refer to all cats as female and all dogs as male, that is, with respective \"she\" and \"he\" pronouns, gendered descriptions (\"handsome,\" \"pretty\") etc. Any dog regardless of what genitalia it actually has can be referred to as if it were a \"boy\" dog; this would suggest that, unlike with people, there is no need to interpret physical appearance as if it indicated the kind of genitals. That dogs can be \"boys\" even after we flip them over and find (gasp) a vagina suggests that, first, genitalia do not necessarily indicate gender but only do so under contingent social conditions (e.g., genitalia on people), and, second, that, gender is not tied to biology but, rather, to what we understand biology to mean."
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There’s zero point in gatekeeping being transgender. By saying “You NEED gender dysphoria to be trans” is you saying “IF YOU KNOW THAT YOURE TRANS AND DONT HAVE GENDER DYSPHORIA YOURE NOT TRANS😡😡😡” This is also like saying if you haven’t been in a same sex relationship before then you can’t be gay. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it.",
">\n\nCould you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.\nI associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.\nOnce someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel?",
">\n\n\nETA: everyone in the comments jumped on the argument of a post-everything trans person no longer feeling dysphoric. I will explain my stance on that here: if someone is ill and they receive continuous medication to block out/alleviate side effects of that illness, are they no longer ill? The answer is no.\n\nSo, this comparison doesn't really work.\nTaking continued medication is not the same as a gender transition. Continued medication to treat an illness has to be done on an ongoing basis, but a gender transition to overcome gender dysphoria is more like a one-and-done procedure.\nYour view would be more correct if it said \"to undergo a gender transition\", a one-time action, instead of \"be transgender\", a continuous state of being.",
">\n\nI guess, technically speaking, that is somewhat of my stance. I think transitioning should be allowed only in the case of gender dysphoria, and those who experience gender dysphoria are transgender. I don't quite understand how someone could be transgender and not experience dysphoria when that is what being transgender is — a biological issue. The continued question I keep asking is \"why would someone transition if they never experienced dysphoria to begin with?\" so I suppose that does correlate with gender dysphoria and transitioning.\nAlso, no, it is not a one-time solution type of thing. You need to take hormones monthly/weekly or your body will switch back to its biological sex. It requires continued treatment. If you stop taking hormones, a lot of the progress you made will be reverted. That is why I compared it to an illness.\nThe only exception is when you get that sex making organ removed (i.e ovaries for trans men), but even then, the ongoing use of medicine is required even more because otherwise your body won't have the hormones you need to continue on.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are transgender under your definition of gender dysphoria since their assigned sex at birth is incongruent with their gender identity. Some non-binary folks , however, myself included, hold out the hope of living in a society without gender identities. In that society, the concept of gender dysphoria would be incoherent; instead, everyone would have varying feelings about their bodies (The difference is between, on the one hand, being able to take for granted that some people have penises and feel okay about that, whereas other people have penises and don't, and, on the other, thinking that people who have penises and are not okay with them want to become women). Those with negative body feelings might undergo body modification surgery—but it wouldn't be gender re-assignment or affirming surgery in a society without gender. \nMy argument is, first, that if it's possible to conceive of such a society, then it's possible to conceive of a transgender person who does not experience gender dysphoria; instead, they merely experience body dysphoria. Second, I also think that contemporary genderfuckery—like drag that isn't trying to be \"fish\" or \"real\" (that is, to pass), public kink, and, heck, lolita and other androgynous-to-high-femme fashion subcultures—can be thought of as a proof-of-concept for such a society. I mean, just like how I can order a unisex Lolita dress in my size right now, maybe one day I can go into a clothing store where clothing is organized by type rather than by men's and women's.",
">\n\nYes, I believe nonbinary folk are transgender. \nI'm sorry, but I don't think I understand your dreams of a society without gender identities. It sounds like a recipe for disaster if there is lack of education on biology. Plus, the lack of teachings about transgenderism is what causes transphobia in the first place. Same with racism, misogyny, etc.",
">\n\nSo it seems that you're not fully convinced that gender is a social construct, which is not to say that it's not very consequential for how people live their lives. (This might be why you're getting pushback in queer circles, by the way; and I mean \"queer\" not, like, mainstream gay such as Pete Buttigieg, etc.)\nOne way of grasping that gender is wholly social is to think about animals. There are people who refer to all cats as female and all dogs as male, that is, with respective \"she\" and \"he\" pronouns, gendered descriptions (\"handsome,\" \"pretty\") etc. Any dog regardless of what genitalia it actually has can be referred to as if it were a \"boy\" dog; this would suggest that, unlike with people, there is no need to interpret physical appearance as if it indicated the kind of genitals. That dogs can be \"boys\" even after we flip them over and find (gasp) a vagina suggests that, first, genitalia do not necessarily indicate gender but only do so under contingent social conditions (e.g., genitalia on people), and, second, that, gender is not tied to biology but, rather, to what we understand biology to mean.",
">\n\nSo you're defining gender dysphoria in a post hoc way, if someone transitions then they have gender dysphoria, whether they say they're perfectly comfortable as they are or not.\nSo... what would change your mind? Because the way you're defining it makes this a non-falsifiable claim, you can always claim someone has dysphoria regardless of their testimony to the contrary.\nOr, how do you know someone has gender dysphoria?"
] |
>
Forgive me if I missed something in your post to clarify, or this has already been said to death. But it seems you're classifying transgender as someone who wants an actual sex change. If that's what you're talking about, I would agree. Gender dysphoria is the only legitimate reason for doing that. But many trans people DON'T want surgery or hormones, they simply represent and identify as the gender they feel that are, and have no problem with their bodies being what they are. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it.",
">\n\nCould you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.\nI associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.\nOnce someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel?",
">\n\n\nETA: everyone in the comments jumped on the argument of a post-everything trans person no longer feeling dysphoric. I will explain my stance on that here: if someone is ill and they receive continuous medication to block out/alleviate side effects of that illness, are they no longer ill? The answer is no.\n\nSo, this comparison doesn't really work.\nTaking continued medication is not the same as a gender transition. Continued medication to treat an illness has to be done on an ongoing basis, but a gender transition to overcome gender dysphoria is more like a one-and-done procedure.\nYour view would be more correct if it said \"to undergo a gender transition\", a one-time action, instead of \"be transgender\", a continuous state of being.",
">\n\nI guess, technically speaking, that is somewhat of my stance. I think transitioning should be allowed only in the case of gender dysphoria, and those who experience gender dysphoria are transgender. I don't quite understand how someone could be transgender and not experience dysphoria when that is what being transgender is — a biological issue. The continued question I keep asking is \"why would someone transition if they never experienced dysphoria to begin with?\" so I suppose that does correlate with gender dysphoria and transitioning.\nAlso, no, it is not a one-time solution type of thing. You need to take hormones monthly/weekly or your body will switch back to its biological sex. It requires continued treatment. If you stop taking hormones, a lot of the progress you made will be reverted. That is why I compared it to an illness.\nThe only exception is when you get that sex making organ removed (i.e ovaries for trans men), but even then, the ongoing use of medicine is required even more because otherwise your body won't have the hormones you need to continue on.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are transgender under your definition of gender dysphoria since their assigned sex at birth is incongruent with their gender identity. Some non-binary folks , however, myself included, hold out the hope of living in a society without gender identities. In that society, the concept of gender dysphoria would be incoherent; instead, everyone would have varying feelings about their bodies (The difference is between, on the one hand, being able to take for granted that some people have penises and feel okay about that, whereas other people have penises and don't, and, on the other, thinking that people who have penises and are not okay with them want to become women). Those with negative body feelings might undergo body modification surgery—but it wouldn't be gender re-assignment or affirming surgery in a society without gender. \nMy argument is, first, that if it's possible to conceive of such a society, then it's possible to conceive of a transgender person who does not experience gender dysphoria; instead, they merely experience body dysphoria. Second, I also think that contemporary genderfuckery—like drag that isn't trying to be \"fish\" or \"real\" (that is, to pass), public kink, and, heck, lolita and other androgynous-to-high-femme fashion subcultures—can be thought of as a proof-of-concept for such a society. I mean, just like how I can order a unisex Lolita dress in my size right now, maybe one day I can go into a clothing store where clothing is organized by type rather than by men's and women's.",
">\n\nYes, I believe nonbinary folk are transgender. \nI'm sorry, but I don't think I understand your dreams of a society without gender identities. It sounds like a recipe for disaster if there is lack of education on biology. Plus, the lack of teachings about transgenderism is what causes transphobia in the first place. Same with racism, misogyny, etc.",
">\n\nSo it seems that you're not fully convinced that gender is a social construct, which is not to say that it's not very consequential for how people live their lives. (This might be why you're getting pushback in queer circles, by the way; and I mean \"queer\" not, like, mainstream gay such as Pete Buttigieg, etc.)\nOne way of grasping that gender is wholly social is to think about animals. There are people who refer to all cats as female and all dogs as male, that is, with respective \"she\" and \"he\" pronouns, gendered descriptions (\"handsome,\" \"pretty\") etc. Any dog regardless of what genitalia it actually has can be referred to as if it were a \"boy\" dog; this would suggest that, unlike with people, there is no need to interpret physical appearance as if it indicated the kind of genitals. That dogs can be \"boys\" even after we flip them over and find (gasp) a vagina suggests that, first, genitalia do not necessarily indicate gender but only do so under contingent social conditions (e.g., genitalia on people), and, second, that, gender is not tied to biology but, rather, to what we understand biology to mean.",
">\n\nSo you're defining gender dysphoria in a post hoc way, if someone transitions then they have gender dysphoria, whether they say they're perfectly comfortable as they are or not.\nSo... what would change your mind? Because the way you're defining it makes this a non-falsifiable claim, you can always claim someone has dysphoria regardless of their testimony to the contrary.\nOr, how do you know someone has gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThere’s zero point in gatekeeping being transgender. By saying “You NEED gender dysphoria to be trans” is you saying “IF YOU KNOW THAT YOURE TRANS AND DONT HAVE GENDER DYSPHORIA YOURE NOT TRANS😡😡😡” This is also like saying if you haven’t been in a same sex relationship before then you can’t be gay."
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Dysphoria isn’t always a criteria imo you’ll hear enough trans folk who didn’t necessarily feel poorly about their body before transitioning/starting to transition if you spend enough time
Instead we should be looking at euphoria, the feeling one gets when they feel the most ‘themselves’, which is a way greater tool imo
Being ‘meh’ or otherwise uncaring about male pronouns but feeling ‘ecstatic’ when someone uses female pronouns for you, whether they’re doing it accidentally or on purpose, could be a greater clue than a low level dissatisfaction or ambivalence about one’s current body or presentation, for example | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it.",
">\n\nCould you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.\nI associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.\nOnce someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel?",
">\n\n\nETA: everyone in the comments jumped on the argument of a post-everything trans person no longer feeling dysphoric. I will explain my stance on that here: if someone is ill and they receive continuous medication to block out/alleviate side effects of that illness, are they no longer ill? The answer is no.\n\nSo, this comparison doesn't really work.\nTaking continued medication is not the same as a gender transition. Continued medication to treat an illness has to be done on an ongoing basis, but a gender transition to overcome gender dysphoria is more like a one-and-done procedure.\nYour view would be more correct if it said \"to undergo a gender transition\", a one-time action, instead of \"be transgender\", a continuous state of being.",
">\n\nI guess, technically speaking, that is somewhat of my stance. I think transitioning should be allowed only in the case of gender dysphoria, and those who experience gender dysphoria are transgender. I don't quite understand how someone could be transgender and not experience dysphoria when that is what being transgender is — a biological issue. The continued question I keep asking is \"why would someone transition if they never experienced dysphoria to begin with?\" so I suppose that does correlate with gender dysphoria and transitioning.\nAlso, no, it is not a one-time solution type of thing. You need to take hormones monthly/weekly or your body will switch back to its biological sex. It requires continued treatment. If you stop taking hormones, a lot of the progress you made will be reverted. That is why I compared it to an illness.\nThe only exception is when you get that sex making organ removed (i.e ovaries for trans men), but even then, the ongoing use of medicine is required even more because otherwise your body won't have the hormones you need to continue on.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are transgender under your definition of gender dysphoria since their assigned sex at birth is incongruent with their gender identity. Some non-binary folks , however, myself included, hold out the hope of living in a society without gender identities. In that society, the concept of gender dysphoria would be incoherent; instead, everyone would have varying feelings about their bodies (The difference is between, on the one hand, being able to take for granted that some people have penises and feel okay about that, whereas other people have penises and don't, and, on the other, thinking that people who have penises and are not okay with them want to become women). Those with negative body feelings might undergo body modification surgery—but it wouldn't be gender re-assignment or affirming surgery in a society without gender. \nMy argument is, first, that if it's possible to conceive of such a society, then it's possible to conceive of a transgender person who does not experience gender dysphoria; instead, they merely experience body dysphoria. Second, I also think that contemporary genderfuckery—like drag that isn't trying to be \"fish\" or \"real\" (that is, to pass), public kink, and, heck, lolita and other androgynous-to-high-femme fashion subcultures—can be thought of as a proof-of-concept for such a society. I mean, just like how I can order a unisex Lolita dress in my size right now, maybe one day I can go into a clothing store where clothing is organized by type rather than by men's and women's.",
">\n\nYes, I believe nonbinary folk are transgender. \nI'm sorry, but I don't think I understand your dreams of a society without gender identities. It sounds like a recipe for disaster if there is lack of education on biology. Plus, the lack of teachings about transgenderism is what causes transphobia in the first place. Same with racism, misogyny, etc.",
">\n\nSo it seems that you're not fully convinced that gender is a social construct, which is not to say that it's not very consequential for how people live their lives. (This might be why you're getting pushback in queer circles, by the way; and I mean \"queer\" not, like, mainstream gay such as Pete Buttigieg, etc.)\nOne way of grasping that gender is wholly social is to think about animals. There are people who refer to all cats as female and all dogs as male, that is, with respective \"she\" and \"he\" pronouns, gendered descriptions (\"handsome,\" \"pretty\") etc. Any dog regardless of what genitalia it actually has can be referred to as if it were a \"boy\" dog; this would suggest that, unlike with people, there is no need to interpret physical appearance as if it indicated the kind of genitals. That dogs can be \"boys\" even after we flip them over and find (gasp) a vagina suggests that, first, genitalia do not necessarily indicate gender but only do so under contingent social conditions (e.g., genitalia on people), and, second, that, gender is not tied to biology but, rather, to what we understand biology to mean.",
">\n\nSo you're defining gender dysphoria in a post hoc way, if someone transitions then they have gender dysphoria, whether they say they're perfectly comfortable as they are or not.\nSo... what would change your mind? Because the way you're defining it makes this a non-falsifiable claim, you can always claim someone has dysphoria regardless of their testimony to the contrary.\nOr, how do you know someone has gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThere’s zero point in gatekeeping being transgender. By saying “You NEED gender dysphoria to be trans” is you saying “IF YOU KNOW THAT YOURE TRANS AND DONT HAVE GENDER DYSPHORIA YOURE NOT TRANS😡😡😡” This is also like saying if you haven’t been in a same sex relationship before then you can’t be gay.",
">\n\nForgive me if I missed something in your post to clarify, or this has already been said to death. But it seems you're classifying transgender as someone who wants an actual sex change. If that's what you're talking about, I would agree. Gender dysphoria is the only legitimate reason for doing that. But many trans people DON'T want surgery or hormones, they simply represent and identify as the gender they feel that are, and have no problem with their bodies being what they are."
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This past week there was a beautiful article about a man who chose to dress as a traditional female but was happily married to the same woman, for many years. If I can find the link I will post it but it was absolutely beautiful and if you read that article and do not change your mind I would be very surprised. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it.",
">\n\nCould you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.\nI associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.\nOnce someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel?",
">\n\n\nETA: everyone in the comments jumped on the argument of a post-everything trans person no longer feeling dysphoric. I will explain my stance on that here: if someone is ill and they receive continuous medication to block out/alleviate side effects of that illness, are they no longer ill? The answer is no.\n\nSo, this comparison doesn't really work.\nTaking continued medication is not the same as a gender transition. Continued medication to treat an illness has to be done on an ongoing basis, but a gender transition to overcome gender dysphoria is more like a one-and-done procedure.\nYour view would be more correct if it said \"to undergo a gender transition\", a one-time action, instead of \"be transgender\", a continuous state of being.",
">\n\nI guess, technically speaking, that is somewhat of my stance. I think transitioning should be allowed only in the case of gender dysphoria, and those who experience gender dysphoria are transgender. I don't quite understand how someone could be transgender and not experience dysphoria when that is what being transgender is — a biological issue. The continued question I keep asking is \"why would someone transition if they never experienced dysphoria to begin with?\" so I suppose that does correlate with gender dysphoria and transitioning.\nAlso, no, it is not a one-time solution type of thing. You need to take hormones monthly/weekly or your body will switch back to its biological sex. It requires continued treatment. If you stop taking hormones, a lot of the progress you made will be reverted. That is why I compared it to an illness.\nThe only exception is when you get that sex making organ removed (i.e ovaries for trans men), but even then, the ongoing use of medicine is required even more because otherwise your body won't have the hormones you need to continue on.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are transgender under your definition of gender dysphoria since their assigned sex at birth is incongruent with their gender identity. Some non-binary folks , however, myself included, hold out the hope of living in a society without gender identities. In that society, the concept of gender dysphoria would be incoherent; instead, everyone would have varying feelings about their bodies (The difference is between, on the one hand, being able to take for granted that some people have penises and feel okay about that, whereas other people have penises and don't, and, on the other, thinking that people who have penises and are not okay with them want to become women). Those with negative body feelings might undergo body modification surgery—but it wouldn't be gender re-assignment or affirming surgery in a society without gender. \nMy argument is, first, that if it's possible to conceive of such a society, then it's possible to conceive of a transgender person who does not experience gender dysphoria; instead, they merely experience body dysphoria. Second, I also think that contemporary genderfuckery—like drag that isn't trying to be \"fish\" or \"real\" (that is, to pass), public kink, and, heck, lolita and other androgynous-to-high-femme fashion subcultures—can be thought of as a proof-of-concept for such a society. I mean, just like how I can order a unisex Lolita dress in my size right now, maybe one day I can go into a clothing store where clothing is organized by type rather than by men's and women's.",
">\n\nYes, I believe nonbinary folk are transgender. \nI'm sorry, but I don't think I understand your dreams of a society without gender identities. It sounds like a recipe for disaster if there is lack of education on biology. Plus, the lack of teachings about transgenderism is what causes transphobia in the first place. Same with racism, misogyny, etc.",
">\n\nSo it seems that you're not fully convinced that gender is a social construct, which is not to say that it's not very consequential for how people live their lives. (This might be why you're getting pushback in queer circles, by the way; and I mean \"queer\" not, like, mainstream gay such as Pete Buttigieg, etc.)\nOne way of grasping that gender is wholly social is to think about animals. There are people who refer to all cats as female and all dogs as male, that is, with respective \"she\" and \"he\" pronouns, gendered descriptions (\"handsome,\" \"pretty\") etc. Any dog regardless of what genitalia it actually has can be referred to as if it were a \"boy\" dog; this would suggest that, unlike with people, there is no need to interpret physical appearance as if it indicated the kind of genitals. That dogs can be \"boys\" even after we flip them over and find (gasp) a vagina suggests that, first, genitalia do not necessarily indicate gender but only do so under contingent social conditions (e.g., genitalia on people), and, second, that, gender is not tied to biology but, rather, to what we understand biology to mean.",
">\n\nSo you're defining gender dysphoria in a post hoc way, if someone transitions then they have gender dysphoria, whether they say they're perfectly comfortable as they are or not.\nSo... what would change your mind? Because the way you're defining it makes this a non-falsifiable claim, you can always claim someone has dysphoria regardless of their testimony to the contrary.\nOr, how do you know someone has gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThere’s zero point in gatekeeping being transgender. By saying “You NEED gender dysphoria to be trans” is you saying “IF YOU KNOW THAT YOURE TRANS AND DONT HAVE GENDER DYSPHORIA YOURE NOT TRANS😡😡😡” This is also like saying if you haven’t been in a same sex relationship before then you can’t be gay.",
">\n\nForgive me if I missed something in your post to clarify, or this has already been said to death. But it seems you're classifying transgender as someone who wants an actual sex change. If that's what you're talking about, I would agree. Gender dysphoria is the only legitimate reason for doing that. But many trans people DON'T want surgery or hormones, they simply represent and identify as the gender they feel that are, and have no problem with their bodies being what they are.",
">\n\nDysphoria isn’t always a criteria imo you’ll hear enough trans folk who didn’t necessarily feel poorly about their body before transitioning/starting to transition if you spend enough time \nInstead we should be looking at euphoria, the feeling one gets when they feel the most ‘themselves’, which is a way greater tool imo \nBeing ‘meh’ or otherwise uncaring about male pronouns but feeling ‘ecstatic’ when someone uses female pronouns for you, whether they’re doing it accidentally or on purpose, could be a greater clue than a low level dissatisfaction or ambivalence about one’s current body or presentation, for example"
] |
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“A ‘real man’ in a dress” is an article in the Washington Post December 21. If you read this and it doesn’t change your mind I will be shocked. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it.",
">\n\nCould you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.\nI associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.\nOnce someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel?",
">\n\n\nETA: everyone in the comments jumped on the argument of a post-everything trans person no longer feeling dysphoric. I will explain my stance on that here: if someone is ill and they receive continuous medication to block out/alleviate side effects of that illness, are they no longer ill? The answer is no.\n\nSo, this comparison doesn't really work.\nTaking continued medication is not the same as a gender transition. Continued medication to treat an illness has to be done on an ongoing basis, but a gender transition to overcome gender dysphoria is more like a one-and-done procedure.\nYour view would be more correct if it said \"to undergo a gender transition\", a one-time action, instead of \"be transgender\", a continuous state of being.",
">\n\nI guess, technically speaking, that is somewhat of my stance. I think transitioning should be allowed only in the case of gender dysphoria, and those who experience gender dysphoria are transgender. I don't quite understand how someone could be transgender and not experience dysphoria when that is what being transgender is — a biological issue. The continued question I keep asking is \"why would someone transition if they never experienced dysphoria to begin with?\" so I suppose that does correlate with gender dysphoria and transitioning.\nAlso, no, it is not a one-time solution type of thing. You need to take hormones monthly/weekly or your body will switch back to its biological sex. It requires continued treatment. If you stop taking hormones, a lot of the progress you made will be reverted. That is why I compared it to an illness.\nThe only exception is when you get that sex making organ removed (i.e ovaries for trans men), but even then, the ongoing use of medicine is required even more because otherwise your body won't have the hormones you need to continue on.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are transgender under your definition of gender dysphoria since their assigned sex at birth is incongruent with their gender identity. Some non-binary folks , however, myself included, hold out the hope of living in a society without gender identities. In that society, the concept of gender dysphoria would be incoherent; instead, everyone would have varying feelings about their bodies (The difference is between, on the one hand, being able to take for granted that some people have penises and feel okay about that, whereas other people have penises and don't, and, on the other, thinking that people who have penises and are not okay with them want to become women). Those with negative body feelings might undergo body modification surgery—but it wouldn't be gender re-assignment or affirming surgery in a society without gender. \nMy argument is, first, that if it's possible to conceive of such a society, then it's possible to conceive of a transgender person who does not experience gender dysphoria; instead, they merely experience body dysphoria. Second, I also think that contemporary genderfuckery—like drag that isn't trying to be \"fish\" or \"real\" (that is, to pass), public kink, and, heck, lolita and other androgynous-to-high-femme fashion subcultures—can be thought of as a proof-of-concept for such a society. I mean, just like how I can order a unisex Lolita dress in my size right now, maybe one day I can go into a clothing store where clothing is organized by type rather than by men's and women's.",
">\n\nYes, I believe nonbinary folk are transgender. \nI'm sorry, but I don't think I understand your dreams of a society without gender identities. It sounds like a recipe for disaster if there is lack of education on biology. Plus, the lack of teachings about transgenderism is what causes transphobia in the first place. Same with racism, misogyny, etc.",
">\n\nSo it seems that you're not fully convinced that gender is a social construct, which is not to say that it's not very consequential for how people live their lives. (This might be why you're getting pushback in queer circles, by the way; and I mean \"queer\" not, like, mainstream gay such as Pete Buttigieg, etc.)\nOne way of grasping that gender is wholly social is to think about animals. There are people who refer to all cats as female and all dogs as male, that is, with respective \"she\" and \"he\" pronouns, gendered descriptions (\"handsome,\" \"pretty\") etc. Any dog regardless of what genitalia it actually has can be referred to as if it were a \"boy\" dog; this would suggest that, unlike with people, there is no need to interpret physical appearance as if it indicated the kind of genitals. That dogs can be \"boys\" even after we flip them over and find (gasp) a vagina suggests that, first, genitalia do not necessarily indicate gender but only do so under contingent social conditions (e.g., genitalia on people), and, second, that, gender is not tied to biology but, rather, to what we understand biology to mean.",
">\n\nSo you're defining gender dysphoria in a post hoc way, if someone transitions then they have gender dysphoria, whether they say they're perfectly comfortable as they are or not.\nSo... what would change your mind? Because the way you're defining it makes this a non-falsifiable claim, you can always claim someone has dysphoria regardless of their testimony to the contrary.\nOr, how do you know someone has gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThere’s zero point in gatekeeping being transgender. By saying “You NEED gender dysphoria to be trans” is you saying “IF YOU KNOW THAT YOURE TRANS AND DONT HAVE GENDER DYSPHORIA YOURE NOT TRANS😡😡😡” This is also like saying if you haven’t been in a same sex relationship before then you can’t be gay.",
">\n\nForgive me if I missed something in your post to clarify, or this has already been said to death. But it seems you're classifying transgender as someone who wants an actual sex change. If that's what you're talking about, I would agree. Gender dysphoria is the only legitimate reason for doing that. But many trans people DON'T want surgery or hormones, they simply represent and identify as the gender they feel that are, and have no problem with their bodies being what they are.",
">\n\nDysphoria isn’t always a criteria imo you’ll hear enough trans folk who didn’t necessarily feel poorly about their body before transitioning/starting to transition if you spend enough time \nInstead we should be looking at euphoria, the feeling one gets when they feel the most ‘themselves’, which is a way greater tool imo \nBeing ‘meh’ or otherwise uncaring about male pronouns but feeling ‘ecstatic’ when someone uses female pronouns for you, whether they’re doing it accidentally or on purpose, could be a greater clue than a low level dissatisfaction or ambivalence about one’s current body or presentation, for example",
">\n\nThis past week there was a beautiful article about a man who chose to dress as a traditional female but was happily married to the same woman, for many years. If I can find the link I will post it but it was absolutely beautiful and if you read that article and do not change your mind I would be very surprised."
] |
>
I believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?
For fun. To rebel. Because you like how it looks. Because you want to experience something new. Because you can.
Maybe I want to transform myself into a space dolphin so I can sail the liquid methane seas of Saturn's moon, Titan. Am I dysphoric? No, but if the technology is there, and society accepts me, that sounds like a lovely way of being.
Transhumanism (of which transgenderism is sometimes considered a small part) is about accepting technological and social change and improving the human condition. Why not become something you aren't? | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it.",
">\n\nCould you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.\nI associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.\nOnce someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel?",
">\n\n\nETA: everyone in the comments jumped on the argument of a post-everything trans person no longer feeling dysphoric. I will explain my stance on that here: if someone is ill and they receive continuous medication to block out/alleviate side effects of that illness, are they no longer ill? The answer is no.\n\nSo, this comparison doesn't really work.\nTaking continued medication is not the same as a gender transition. Continued medication to treat an illness has to be done on an ongoing basis, but a gender transition to overcome gender dysphoria is more like a one-and-done procedure.\nYour view would be more correct if it said \"to undergo a gender transition\", a one-time action, instead of \"be transgender\", a continuous state of being.",
">\n\nI guess, technically speaking, that is somewhat of my stance. I think transitioning should be allowed only in the case of gender dysphoria, and those who experience gender dysphoria are transgender. I don't quite understand how someone could be transgender and not experience dysphoria when that is what being transgender is — a biological issue. The continued question I keep asking is \"why would someone transition if they never experienced dysphoria to begin with?\" so I suppose that does correlate with gender dysphoria and transitioning.\nAlso, no, it is not a one-time solution type of thing. You need to take hormones monthly/weekly or your body will switch back to its biological sex. It requires continued treatment. If you stop taking hormones, a lot of the progress you made will be reverted. That is why I compared it to an illness.\nThe only exception is when you get that sex making organ removed (i.e ovaries for trans men), but even then, the ongoing use of medicine is required even more because otherwise your body won't have the hormones you need to continue on.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are transgender under your definition of gender dysphoria since their assigned sex at birth is incongruent with their gender identity. Some non-binary folks , however, myself included, hold out the hope of living in a society without gender identities. In that society, the concept of gender dysphoria would be incoherent; instead, everyone would have varying feelings about their bodies (The difference is between, on the one hand, being able to take for granted that some people have penises and feel okay about that, whereas other people have penises and don't, and, on the other, thinking that people who have penises and are not okay with them want to become women). Those with negative body feelings might undergo body modification surgery—but it wouldn't be gender re-assignment or affirming surgery in a society without gender. \nMy argument is, first, that if it's possible to conceive of such a society, then it's possible to conceive of a transgender person who does not experience gender dysphoria; instead, they merely experience body dysphoria. Second, I also think that contemporary genderfuckery—like drag that isn't trying to be \"fish\" or \"real\" (that is, to pass), public kink, and, heck, lolita and other androgynous-to-high-femme fashion subcultures—can be thought of as a proof-of-concept for such a society. I mean, just like how I can order a unisex Lolita dress in my size right now, maybe one day I can go into a clothing store where clothing is organized by type rather than by men's and women's.",
">\n\nYes, I believe nonbinary folk are transgender. \nI'm sorry, but I don't think I understand your dreams of a society without gender identities. It sounds like a recipe for disaster if there is lack of education on biology. Plus, the lack of teachings about transgenderism is what causes transphobia in the first place. Same with racism, misogyny, etc.",
">\n\nSo it seems that you're not fully convinced that gender is a social construct, which is not to say that it's not very consequential for how people live their lives. (This might be why you're getting pushback in queer circles, by the way; and I mean \"queer\" not, like, mainstream gay such as Pete Buttigieg, etc.)\nOne way of grasping that gender is wholly social is to think about animals. There are people who refer to all cats as female and all dogs as male, that is, with respective \"she\" and \"he\" pronouns, gendered descriptions (\"handsome,\" \"pretty\") etc. Any dog regardless of what genitalia it actually has can be referred to as if it were a \"boy\" dog; this would suggest that, unlike with people, there is no need to interpret physical appearance as if it indicated the kind of genitals. That dogs can be \"boys\" even after we flip them over and find (gasp) a vagina suggests that, first, genitalia do not necessarily indicate gender but only do so under contingent social conditions (e.g., genitalia on people), and, second, that, gender is not tied to biology but, rather, to what we understand biology to mean.",
">\n\nSo you're defining gender dysphoria in a post hoc way, if someone transitions then they have gender dysphoria, whether they say they're perfectly comfortable as they are or not.\nSo... what would change your mind? Because the way you're defining it makes this a non-falsifiable claim, you can always claim someone has dysphoria regardless of their testimony to the contrary.\nOr, how do you know someone has gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThere’s zero point in gatekeeping being transgender. By saying “You NEED gender dysphoria to be trans” is you saying “IF YOU KNOW THAT YOURE TRANS AND DONT HAVE GENDER DYSPHORIA YOURE NOT TRANS😡😡😡” This is also like saying if you haven’t been in a same sex relationship before then you can’t be gay.",
">\n\nForgive me if I missed something in your post to clarify, or this has already been said to death. But it seems you're classifying transgender as someone who wants an actual sex change. If that's what you're talking about, I would agree. Gender dysphoria is the only legitimate reason for doing that. But many trans people DON'T want surgery or hormones, they simply represent and identify as the gender they feel that are, and have no problem with their bodies being what they are.",
">\n\nDysphoria isn’t always a criteria imo you’ll hear enough trans folk who didn’t necessarily feel poorly about their body before transitioning/starting to transition if you spend enough time \nInstead we should be looking at euphoria, the feeling one gets when they feel the most ‘themselves’, which is a way greater tool imo \nBeing ‘meh’ or otherwise uncaring about male pronouns but feeling ‘ecstatic’ when someone uses female pronouns for you, whether they’re doing it accidentally or on purpose, could be a greater clue than a low level dissatisfaction or ambivalence about one’s current body or presentation, for example",
">\n\nThis past week there was a beautiful article about a man who chose to dress as a traditional female but was happily married to the same woman, for many years. If I can find the link I will post it but it was absolutely beautiful and if you read that article and do not change your mind I would be very surprised.",
">\n\n“A ‘real man’ in a dress” is an article in the Washington Post December 21. If you read this and it doesn’t change your mind I will be shocked."
] |
>
I don't not agree. The desire to be anything other than the gender you were born with doesn't always need dysphoria, all you need is the desire to experience and explore sexuality. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it.",
">\n\nCould you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.\nI associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.\nOnce someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel?",
">\n\n\nETA: everyone in the comments jumped on the argument of a post-everything trans person no longer feeling dysphoric. I will explain my stance on that here: if someone is ill and they receive continuous medication to block out/alleviate side effects of that illness, are they no longer ill? The answer is no.\n\nSo, this comparison doesn't really work.\nTaking continued medication is not the same as a gender transition. Continued medication to treat an illness has to be done on an ongoing basis, but a gender transition to overcome gender dysphoria is more like a one-and-done procedure.\nYour view would be more correct if it said \"to undergo a gender transition\", a one-time action, instead of \"be transgender\", a continuous state of being.",
">\n\nI guess, technically speaking, that is somewhat of my stance. I think transitioning should be allowed only in the case of gender dysphoria, and those who experience gender dysphoria are transgender. I don't quite understand how someone could be transgender and not experience dysphoria when that is what being transgender is — a biological issue. The continued question I keep asking is \"why would someone transition if they never experienced dysphoria to begin with?\" so I suppose that does correlate with gender dysphoria and transitioning.\nAlso, no, it is not a one-time solution type of thing. You need to take hormones monthly/weekly or your body will switch back to its biological sex. It requires continued treatment. If you stop taking hormones, a lot of the progress you made will be reverted. That is why I compared it to an illness.\nThe only exception is when you get that sex making organ removed (i.e ovaries for trans men), but even then, the ongoing use of medicine is required even more because otherwise your body won't have the hormones you need to continue on.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are transgender under your definition of gender dysphoria since their assigned sex at birth is incongruent with their gender identity. Some non-binary folks , however, myself included, hold out the hope of living in a society without gender identities. In that society, the concept of gender dysphoria would be incoherent; instead, everyone would have varying feelings about their bodies (The difference is between, on the one hand, being able to take for granted that some people have penises and feel okay about that, whereas other people have penises and don't, and, on the other, thinking that people who have penises and are not okay with them want to become women). Those with negative body feelings might undergo body modification surgery—but it wouldn't be gender re-assignment or affirming surgery in a society without gender. \nMy argument is, first, that if it's possible to conceive of such a society, then it's possible to conceive of a transgender person who does not experience gender dysphoria; instead, they merely experience body dysphoria. Second, I also think that contemporary genderfuckery—like drag that isn't trying to be \"fish\" or \"real\" (that is, to pass), public kink, and, heck, lolita and other androgynous-to-high-femme fashion subcultures—can be thought of as a proof-of-concept for such a society. I mean, just like how I can order a unisex Lolita dress in my size right now, maybe one day I can go into a clothing store where clothing is organized by type rather than by men's and women's.",
">\n\nYes, I believe nonbinary folk are transgender. \nI'm sorry, but I don't think I understand your dreams of a society without gender identities. It sounds like a recipe for disaster if there is lack of education on biology. Plus, the lack of teachings about transgenderism is what causes transphobia in the first place. Same with racism, misogyny, etc.",
">\n\nSo it seems that you're not fully convinced that gender is a social construct, which is not to say that it's not very consequential for how people live their lives. (This might be why you're getting pushback in queer circles, by the way; and I mean \"queer\" not, like, mainstream gay such as Pete Buttigieg, etc.)\nOne way of grasping that gender is wholly social is to think about animals. There are people who refer to all cats as female and all dogs as male, that is, with respective \"she\" and \"he\" pronouns, gendered descriptions (\"handsome,\" \"pretty\") etc. Any dog regardless of what genitalia it actually has can be referred to as if it were a \"boy\" dog; this would suggest that, unlike with people, there is no need to interpret physical appearance as if it indicated the kind of genitals. That dogs can be \"boys\" even after we flip them over and find (gasp) a vagina suggests that, first, genitalia do not necessarily indicate gender but only do so under contingent social conditions (e.g., genitalia on people), and, second, that, gender is not tied to biology but, rather, to what we understand biology to mean.",
">\n\nSo you're defining gender dysphoria in a post hoc way, if someone transitions then they have gender dysphoria, whether they say they're perfectly comfortable as they are or not.\nSo... what would change your mind? Because the way you're defining it makes this a non-falsifiable claim, you can always claim someone has dysphoria regardless of their testimony to the contrary.\nOr, how do you know someone has gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThere’s zero point in gatekeeping being transgender. By saying “You NEED gender dysphoria to be trans” is you saying “IF YOU KNOW THAT YOURE TRANS AND DONT HAVE GENDER DYSPHORIA YOURE NOT TRANS😡😡😡” This is also like saying if you haven’t been in a same sex relationship before then you can’t be gay.",
">\n\nForgive me if I missed something in your post to clarify, or this has already been said to death. But it seems you're classifying transgender as someone who wants an actual sex change. If that's what you're talking about, I would agree. Gender dysphoria is the only legitimate reason for doing that. But many trans people DON'T want surgery or hormones, they simply represent and identify as the gender they feel that are, and have no problem with their bodies being what they are.",
">\n\nDysphoria isn’t always a criteria imo you’ll hear enough trans folk who didn’t necessarily feel poorly about their body before transitioning/starting to transition if you spend enough time \nInstead we should be looking at euphoria, the feeling one gets when they feel the most ‘themselves’, which is a way greater tool imo \nBeing ‘meh’ or otherwise uncaring about male pronouns but feeling ‘ecstatic’ when someone uses female pronouns for you, whether they’re doing it accidentally or on purpose, could be a greater clue than a low level dissatisfaction or ambivalence about one’s current body or presentation, for example",
">\n\nThis past week there was a beautiful article about a man who chose to dress as a traditional female but was happily married to the same woman, for many years. If I can find the link I will post it but it was absolutely beautiful and if you read that article and do not change your mind I would be very surprised.",
">\n\n“A ‘real man’ in a dress” is an article in the Washington Post December 21. If you read this and it doesn’t change your mind I will be shocked.",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nFor fun. To rebel. Because you like how it looks. Because you want to experience something new. Because you can.\nMaybe I want to transform myself into a space dolphin so I can sail the liquid methane seas of Saturn's moon, Titan. Am I dysphoric? No, but if the technology is there, and society accepts me, that sounds like a lovely way of being.\nTranshumanism (of which transgenderism is sometimes considered a small part) is about accepting technological and social change and improving the human condition. Why not become something you aren't?"
] |
>
Gender dysphoria is not a criteria to be transgender. If you read the DSM you’ll see that being transgender is one explanation for gender dysphoria. The DSM defines interpersonal dysfunction. If a person is able to overcome struggles on their own, they will never receive a diagnosis. Therefore, the diagnosis of gender dysphoria means that a person is struggling with their gender identity. The diagnosis doesn’t mean anything beyond that. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it.",
">\n\nCould you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.\nI associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.\nOnce someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel?",
">\n\n\nETA: everyone in the comments jumped on the argument of a post-everything trans person no longer feeling dysphoric. I will explain my stance on that here: if someone is ill and they receive continuous medication to block out/alleviate side effects of that illness, are they no longer ill? The answer is no.\n\nSo, this comparison doesn't really work.\nTaking continued medication is not the same as a gender transition. Continued medication to treat an illness has to be done on an ongoing basis, but a gender transition to overcome gender dysphoria is more like a one-and-done procedure.\nYour view would be more correct if it said \"to undergo a gender transition\", a one-time action, instead of \"be transgender\", a continuous state of being.",
">\n\nI guess, technically speaking, that is somewhat of my stance. I think transitioning should be allowed only in the case of gender dysphoria, and those who experience gender dysphoria are transgender. I don't quite understand how someone could be transgender and not experience dysphoria when that is what being transgender is — a biological issue. The continued question I keep asking is \"why would someone transition if they never experienced dysphoria to begin with?\" so I suppose that does correlate with gender dysphoria and transitioning.\nAlso, no, it is not a one-time solution type of thing. You need to take hormones monthly/weekly or your body will switch back to its biological sex. It requires continued treatment. If you stop taking hormones, a lot of the progress you made will be reverted. That is why I compared it to an illness.\nThe only exception is when you get that sex making organ removed (i.e ovaries for trans men), but even then, the ongoing use of medicine is required even more because otherwise your body won't have the hormones you need to continue on.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are transgender under your definition of gender dysphoria since their assigned sex at birth is incongruent with their gender identity. Some non-binary folks , however, myself included, hold out the hope of living in a society without gender identities. In that society, the concept of gender dysphoria would be incoherent; instead, everyone would have varying feelings about their bodies (The difference is between, on the one hand, being able to take for granted that some people have penises and feel okay about that, whereas other people have penises and don't, and, on the other, thinking that people who have penises and are not okay with them want to become women). Those with negative body feelings might undergo body modification surgery—but it wouldn't be gender re-assignment or affirming surgery in a society without gender. \nMy argument is, first, that if it's possible to conceive of such a society, then it's possible to conceive of a transgender person who does not experience gender dysphoria; instead, they merely experience body dysphoria. Second, I also think that contemporary genderfuckery—like drag that isn't trying to be \"fish\" or \"real\" (that is, to pass), public kink, and, heck, lolita and other androgynous-to-high-femme fashion subcultures—can be thought of as a proof-of-concept for such a society. I mean, just like how I can order a unisex Lolita dress in my size right now, maybe one day I can go into a clothing store where clothing is organized by type rather than by men's and women's.",
">\n\nYes, I believe nonbinary folk are transgender. \nI'm sorry, but I don't think I understand your dreams of a society without gender identities. It sounds like a recipe for disaster if there is lack of education on biology. Plus, the lack of teachings about transgenderism is what causes transphobia in the first place. Same with racism, misogyny, etc.",
">\n\nSo it seems that you're not fully convinced that gender is a social construct, which is not to say that it's not very consequential for how people live their lives. (This might be why you're getting pushback in queer circles, by the way; and I mean \"queer\" not, like, mainstream gay such as Pete Buttigieg, etc.)\nOne way of grasping that gender is wholly social is to think about animals. There are people who refer to all cats as female and all dogs as male, that is, with respective \"she\" and \"he\" pronouns, gendered descriptions (\"handsome,\" \"pretty\") etc. Any dog regardless of what genitalia it actually has can be referred to as if it were a \"boy\" dog; this would suggest that, unlike with people, there is no need to interpret physical appearance as if it indicated the kind of genitals. That dogs can be \"boys\" even after we flip them over and find (gasp) a vagina suggests that, first, genitalia do not necessarily indicate gender but only do so under contingent social conditions (e.g., genitalia on people), and, second, that, gender is not tied to biology but, rather, to what we understand biology to mean.",
">\n\nSo you're defining gender dysphoria in a post hoc way, if someone transitions then they have gender dysphoria, whether they say they're perfectly comfortable as they are or not.\nSo... what would change your mind? Because the way you're defining it makes this a non-falsifiable claim, you can always claim someone has dysphoria regardless of their testimony to the contrary.\nOr, how do you know someone has gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThere’s zero point in gatekeeping being transgender. By saying “You NEED gender dysphoria to be trans” is you saying “IF YOU KNOW THAT YOURE TRANS AND DONT HAVE GENDER DYSPHORIA YOURE NOT TRANS😡😡😡” This is also like saying if you haven’t been in a same sex relationship before then you can’t be gay.",
">\n\nForgive me if I missed something in your post to clarify, or this has already been said to death. But it seems you're classifying transgender as someone who wants an actual sex change. If that's what you're talking about, I would agree. Gender dysphoria is the only legitimate reason for doing that. But many trans people DON'T want surgery or hormones, they simply represent and identify as the gender they feel that are, and have no problem with their bodies being what they are.",
">\n\nDysphoria isn’t always a criteria imo you’ll hear enough trans folk who didn’t necessarily feel poorly about their body before transitioning/starting to transition if you spend enough time \nInstead we should be looking at euphoria, the feeling one gets when they feel the most ‘themselves’, which is a way greater tool imo \nBeing ‘meh’ or otherwise uncaring about male pronouns but feeling ‘ecstatic’ when someone uses female pronouns for you, whether they’re doing it accidentally or on purpose, could be a greater clue than a low level dissatisfaction or ambivalence about one’s current body or presentation, for example",
">\n\nThis past week there was a beautiful article about a man who chose to dress as a traditional female but was happily married to the same woman, for many years. If I can find the link I will post it but it was absolutely beautiful and if you read that article and do not change your mind I would be very surprised.",
">\n\n“A ‘real man’ in a dress” is an article in the Washington Post December 21. If you read this and it doesn’t change your mind I will be shocked.",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nFor fun. To rebel. Because you like how it looks. Because you want to experience something new. Because you can.\nMaybe I want to transform myself into a space dolphin so I can sail the liquid methane seas of Saturn's moon, Titan. Am I dysphoric? No, but if the technology is there, and society accepts me, that sounds like a lovely way of being.\nTranshumanism (of which transgenderism is sometimes considered a small part) is about accepting technological and social change and improving the human condition. Why not become something you aren't?",
">\n\nI don't not agree. The desire to be anything other than the gender you were born with doesn't always need dysphoria, all you need is the desire to experience and explore sexuality."
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Does a trans person who socially and/or physically transitioned and is happy with their gender presentation (and therefore not experiencing dysphoria) stop being trans?
All you need to be trans is to have a gender identity that doesn't match the one assigned to you at birth. Current or previous suffering is not a determining factor. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it.",
">\n\nCould you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.\nI associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.\nOnce someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel?",
">\n\n\nETA: everyone in the comments jumped on the argument of a post-everything trans person no longer feeling dysphoric. I will explain my stance on that here: if someone is ill and they receive continuous medication to block out/alleviate side effects of that illness, are they no longer ill? The answer is no.\n\nSo, this comparison doesn't really work.\nTaking continued medication is not the same as a gender transition. Continued medication to treat an illness has to be done on an ongoing basis, but a gender transition to overcome gender dysphoria is more like a one-and-done procedure.\nYour view would be more correct if it said \"to undergo a gender transition\", a one-time action, instead of \"be transgender\", a continuous state of being.",
">\n\nI guess, technically speaking, that is somewhat of my stance. I think transitioning should be allowed only in the case of gender dysphoria, and those who experience gender dysphoria are transgender. I don't quite understand how someone could be transgender and not experience dysphoria when that is what being transgender is — a biological issue. The continued question I keep asking is \"why would someone transition if they never experienced dysphoria to begin with?\" so I suppose that does correlate with gender dysphoria and transitioning.\nAlso, no, it is not a one-time solution type of thing. You need to take hormones monthly/weekly or your body will switch back to its biological sex. It requires continued treatment. If you stop taking hormones, a lot of the progress you made will be reverted. That is why I compared it to an illness.\nThe only exception is when you get that sex making organ removed (i.e ovaries for trans men), but even then, the ongoing use of medicine is required even more because otherwise your body won't have the hormones you need to continue on.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are transgender under your definition of gender dysphoria since their assigned sex at birth is incongruent with their gender identity. Some non-binary folks , however, myself included, hold out the hope of living in a society without gender identities. In that society, the concept of gender dysphoria would be incoherent; instead, everyone would have varying feelings about their bodies (The difference is between, on the one hand, being able to take for granted that some people have penises and feel okay about that, whereas other people have penises and don't, and, on the other, thinking that people who have penises and are not okay with them want to become women). Those with negative body feelings might undergo body modification surgery—but it wouldn't be gender re-assignment or affirming surgery in a society without gender. \nMy argument is, first, that if it's possible to conceive of such a society, then it's possible to conceive of a transgender person who does not experience gender dysphoria; instead, they merely experience body dysphoria. Second, I also think that contemporary genderfuckery—like drag that isn't trying to be \"fish\" or \"real\" (that is, to pass), public kink, and, heck, lolita and other androgynous-to-high-femme fashion subcultures—can be thought of as a proof-of-concept for such a society. I mean, just like how I can order a unisex Lolita dress in my size right now, maybe one day I can go into a clothing store where clothing is organized by type rather than by men's and women's.",
">\n\nYes, I believe nonbinary folk are transgender. \nI'm sorry, but I don't think I understand your dreams of a society without gender identities. It sounds like a recipe for disaster if there is lack of education on biology. Plus, the lack of teachings about transgenderism is what causes transphobia in the first place. Same with racism, misogyny, etc.",
">\n\nSo it seems that you're not fully convinced that gender is a social construct, which is not to say that it's not very consequential for how people live their lives. (This might be why you're getting pushback in queer circles, by the way; and I mean \"queer\" not, like, mainstream gay such as Pete Buttigieg, etc.)\nOne way of grasping that gender is wholly social is to think about animals. There are people who refer to all cats as female and all dogs as male, that is, with respective \"she\" and \"he\" pronouns, gendered descriptions (\"handsome,\" \"pretty\") etc. Any dog regardless of what genitalia it actually has can be referred to as if it were a \"boy\" dog; this would suggest that, unlike with people, there is no need to interpret physical appearance as if it indicated the kind of genitals. That dogs can be \"boys\" even after we flip them over and find (gasp) a vagina suggests that, first, genitalia do not necessarily indicate gender but only do so under contingent social conditions (e.g., genitalia on people), and, second, that, gender is not tied to biology but, rather, to what we understand biology to mean.",
">\n\nSo you're defining gender dysphoria in a post hoc way, if someone transitions then they have gender dysphoria, whether they say they're perfectly comfortable as they are or not.\nSo... what would change your mind? Because the way you're defining it makes this a non-falsifiable claim, you can always claim someone has dysphoria regardless of their testimony to the contrary.\nOr, how do you know someone has gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThere’s zero point in gatekeeping being transgender. By saying “You NEED gender dysphoria to be trans” is you saying “IF YOU KNOW THAT YOURE TRANS AND DONT HAVE GENDER DYSPHORIA YOURE NOT TRANS😡😡😡” This is also like saying if you haven’t been in a same sex relationship before then you can’t be gay.",
">\n\nForgive me if I missed something in your post to clarify, or this has already been said to death. But it seems you're classifying transgender as someone who wants an actual sex change. If that's what you're talking about, I would agree. Gender dysphoria is the only legitimate reason for doing that. But many trans people DON'T want surgery or hormones, they simply represent and identify as the gender they feel that are, and have no problem with their bodies being what they are.",
">\n\nDysphoria isn’t always a criteria imo you’ll hear enough trans folk who didn’t necessarily feel poorly about their body before transitioning/starting to transition if you spend enough time \nInstead we should be looking at euphoria, the feeling one gets when they feel the most ‘themselves’, which is a way greater tool imo \nBeing ‘meh’ or otherwise uncaring about male pronouns but feeling ‘ecstatic’ when someone uses female pronouns for you, whether they’re doing it accidentally or on purpose, could be a greater clue than a low level dissatisfaction or ambivalence about one’s current body or presentation, for example",
">\n\nThis past week there was a beautiful article about a man who chose to dress as a traditional female but was happily married to the same woman, for many years. If I can find the link I will post it but it was absolutely beautiful and if you read that article and do not change your mind I would be very surprised.",
">\n\n“A ‘real man’ in a dress” is an article in the Washington Post December 21. If you read this and it doesn’t change your mind I will be shocked.",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nFor fun. To rebel. Because you like how it looks. Because you want to experience something new. Because you can.\nMaybe I want to transform myself into a space dolphin so I can sail the liquid methane seas of Saturn's moon, Titan. Am I dysphoric? No, but if the technology is there, and society accepts me, that sounds like a lovely way of being.\nTranshumanism (of which transgenderism is sometimes considered a small part) is about accepting technological and social change and improving the human condition. Why not become something you aren't?",
">\n\nI don't not agree. The desire to be anything other than the gender you were born with doesn't always need dysphoria, all you need is the desire to experience and explore sexuality.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is not a criteria to be transgender. If you read the DSM you’ll see that being transgender is one explanation for gender dysphoria. The DSM defines interpersonal dysfunction. If a person is able to overcome struggles on their own, they will never receive a diagnosis. Therefore, the diagnosis of gender dysphoria means that a person is struggling with their gender identity. The diagnosis doesn’t mean anything beyond that."
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Your subject line is false as stated as literally every diagnostic standard in the field attests.
This I a factual question, not an opinion. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it.",
">\n\nCould you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.\nI associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.\nOnce someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel?",
">\n\n\nETA: everyone in the comments jumped on the argument of a post-everything trans person no longer feeling dysphoric. I will explain my stance on that here: if someone is ill and they receive continuous medication to block out/alleviate side effects of that illness, are they no longer ill? The answer is no.\n\nSo, this comparison doesn't really work.\nTaking continued medication is not the same as a gender transition. Continued medication to treat an illness has to be done on an ongoing basis, but a gender transition to overcome gender dysphoria is more like a one-and-done procedure.\nYour view would be more correct if it said \"to undergo a gender transition\", a one-time action, instead of \"be transgender\", a continuous state of being.",
">\n\nI guess, technically speaking, that is somewhat of my stance. I think transitioning should be allowed only in the case of gender dysphoria, and those who experience gender dysphoria are transgender. I don't quite understand how someone could be transgender and not experience dysphoria when that is what being transgender is — a biological issue. The continued question I keep asking is \"why would someone transition if they never experienced dysphoria to begin with?\" so I suppose that does correlate with gender dysphoria and transitioning.\nAlso, no, it is not a one-time solution type of thing. You need to take hormones monthly/weekly or your body will switch back to its biological sex. It requires continued treatment. If you stop taking hormones, a lot of the progress you made will be reverted. That is why I compared it to an illness.\nThe only exception is when you get that sex making organ removed (i.e ovaries for trans men), but even then, the ongoing use of medicine is required even more because otherwise your body won't have the hormones you need to continue on.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are transgender under your definition of gender dysphoria since their assigned sex at birth is incongruent with their gender identity. Some non-binary folks , however, myself included, hold out the hope of living in a society without gender identities. In that society, the concept of gender dysphoria would be incoherent; instead, everyone would have varying feelings about their bodies (The difference is between, on the one hand, being able to take for granted that some people have penises and feel okay about that, whereas other people have penises and don't, and, on the other, thinking that people who have penises and are not okay with them want to become women). Those with negative body feelings might undergo body modification surgery—but it wouldn't be gender re-assignment or affirming surgery in a society without gender. \nMy argument is, first, that if it's possible to conceive of such a society, then it's possible to conceive of a transgender person who does not experience gender dysphoria; instead, they merely experience body dysphoria. Second, I also think that contemporary genderfuckery—like drag that isn't trying to be \"fish\" or \"real\" (that is, to pass), public kink, and, heck, lolita and other androgynous-to-high-femme fashion subcultures—can be thought of as a proof-of-concept for such a society. I mean, just like how I can order a unisex Lolita dress in my size right now, maybe one day I can go into a clothing store where clothing is organized by type rather than by men's and women's.",
">\n\nYes, I believe nonbinary folk are transgender. \nI'm sorry, but I don't think I understand your dreams of a society without gender identities. It sounds like a recipe for disaster if there is lack of education on biology. Plus, the lack of teachings about transgenderism is what causes transphobia in the first place. Same with racism, misogyny, etc.",
">\n\nSo it seems that you're not fully convinced that gender is a social construct, which is not to say that it's not very consequential for how people live their lives. (This might be why you're getting pushback in queer circles, by the way; and I mean \"queer\" not, like, mainstream gay such as Pete Buttigieg, etc.)\nOne way of grasping that gender is wholly social is to think about animals. There are people who refer to all cats as female and all dogs as male, that is, with respective \"she\" and \"he\" pronouns, gendered descriptions (\"handsome,\" \"pretty\") etc. Any dog regardless of what genitalia it actually has can be referred to as if it were a \"boy\" dog; this would suggest that, unlike with people, there is no need to interpret physical appearance as if it indicated the kind of genitals. That dogs can be \"boys\" even after we flip them over and find (gasp) a vagina suggests that, first, genitalia do not necessarily indicate gender but only do so under contingent social conditions (e.g., genitalia on people), and, second, that, gender is not tied to biology but, rather, to what we understand biology to mean.",
">\n\nSo you're defining gender dysphoria in a post hoc way, if someone transitions then they have gender dysphoria, whether they say they're perfectly comfortable as they are or not.\nSo... what would change your mind? Because the way you're defining it makes this a non-falsifiable claim, you can always claim someone has dysphoria regardless of their testimony to the contrary.\nOr, how do you know someone has gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThere’s zero point in gatekeeping being transgender. By saying “You NEED gender dysphoria to be trans” is you saying “IF YOU KNOW THAT YOURE TRANS AND DONT HAVE GENDER DYSPHORIA YOURE NOT TRANS😡😡😡” This is also like saying if you haven’t been in a same sex relationship before then you can’t be gay.",
">\n\nForgive me if I missed something in your post to clarify, or this has already been said to death. But it seems you're classifying transgender as someone who wants an actual sex change. If that's what you're talking about, I would agree. Gender dysphoria is the only legitimate reason for doing that. But many trans people DON'T want surgery or hormones, they simply represent and identify as the gender they feel that are, and have no problem with their bodies being what they are.",
">\n\nDysphoria isn’t always a criteria imo you’ll hear enough trans folk who didn’t necessarily feel poorly about their body before transitioning/starting to transition if you spend enough time \nInstead we should be looking at euphoria, the feeling one gets when they feel the most ‘themselves’, which is a way greater tool imo \nBeing ‘meh’ or otherwise uncaring about male pronouns but feeling ‘ecstatic’ when someone uses female pronouns for you, whether they’re doing it accidentally or on purpose, could be a greater clue than a low level dissatisfaction or ambivalence about one’s current body or presentation, for example",
">\n\nThis past week there was a beautiful article about a man who chose to dress as a traditional female but was happily married to the same woman, for many years. If I can find the link I will post it but it was absolutely beautiful and if you read that article and do not change your mind I would be very surprised.",
">\n\n“A ‘real man’ in a dress” is an article in the Washington Post December 21. If you read this and it doesn’t change your mind I will be shocked.",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nFor fun. To rebel. Because you like how it looks. Because you want to experience something new. Because you can.\nMaybe I want to transform myself into a space dolphin so I can sail the liquid methane seas of Saturn's moon, Titan. Am I dysphoric? No, but if the technology is there, and society accepts me, that sounds like a lovely way of being.\nTranshumanism (of which transgenderism is sometimes considered a small part) is about accepting technological and social change and improving the human condition. Why not become something you aren't?",
">\n\nI don't not agree. The desire to be anything other than the gender you were born with doesn't always need dysphoria, all you need is the desire to experience and explore sexuality.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is not a criteria to be transgender. If you read the DSM you’ll see that being transgender is one explanation for gender dysphoria. The DSM defines interpersonal dysfunction. If a person is able to overcome struggles on their own, they will never receive a diagnosis. Therefore, the diagnosis of gender dysphoria means that a person is struggling with their gender identity. The diagnosis doesn’t mean anything beyond that.",
">\n\nDoes a trans person who socially and/or physically transitioned and is happy with their gender presentation (and therefore not experiencing dysphoria) stop being trans? \nAll you need to be trans is to have a gender identity that doesn't match the one assigned to you at birth. Current or previous suffering is not a determining factor."
] |
>
Almost every transgender/non-binary person I know has attributed it to dysphoria itself, or dysphoria brought on by trauma, so I can’t exactly disagree on that, but I disagree that men can walk around with no problems. Are they the same problems as women’s problems? Probably not but they do have things to fear. My mom’s friend’s son was shot randomly at a red light for looking at someone. All he did was glance. Dude walked up and said, “Tf you looking at?” and shot him. Another guy was shot in his car in his parking spot in the lot in front of his apartment. All he was doing was listening to music about to go to a friend’s house. Men still get jumped and robbed. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it.",
">\n\nCould you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.\nI associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.\nOnce someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel?",
">\n\n\nETA: everyone in the comments jumped on the argument of a post-everything trans person no longer feeling dysphoric. I will explain my stance on that here: if someone is ill and they receive continuous medication to block out/alleviate side effects of that illness, are they no longer ill? The answer is no.\n\nSo, this comparison doesn't really work.\nTaking continued medication is not the same as a gender transition. Continued medication to treat an illness has to be done on an ongoing basis, but a gender transition to overcome gender dysphoria is more like a one-and-done procedure.\nYour view would be more correct if it said \"to undergo a gender transition\", a one-time action, instead of \"be transgender\", a continuous state of being.",
">\n\nI guess, technically speaking, that is somewhat of my stance. I think transitioning should be allowed only in the case of gender dysphoria, and those who experience gender dysphoria are transgender. I don't quite understand how someone could be transgender and not experience dysphoria when that is what being transgender is — a biological issue. The continued question I keep asking is \"why would someone transition if they never experienced dysphoria to begin with?\" so I suppose that does correlate with gender dysphoria and transitioning.\nAlso, no, it is not a one-time solution type of thing. You need to take hormones monthly/weekly or your body will switch back to its biological sex. It requires continued treatment. If you stop taking hormones, a lot of the progress you made will be reverted. That is why I compared it to an illness.\nThe only exception is when you get that sex making organ removed (i.e ovaries for trans men), but even then, the ongoing use of medicine is required even more because otherwise your body won't have the hormones you need to continue on.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are transgender under your definition of gender dysphoria since their assigned sex at birth is incongruent with their gender identity. Some non-binary folks , however, myself included, hold out the hope of living in a society without gender identities. In that society, the concept of gender dysphoria would be incoherent; instead, everyone would have varying feelings about their bodies (The difference is between, on the one hand, being able to take for granted that some people have penises and feel okay about that, whereas other people have penises and don't, and, on the other, thinking that people who have penises and are not okay with them want to become women). Those with negative body feelings might undergo body modification surgery—but it wouldn't be gender re-assignment or affirming surgery in a society without gender. \nMy argument is, first, that if it's possible to conceive of such a society, then it's possible to conceive of a transgender person who does not experience gender dysphoria; instead, they merely experience body dysphoria. Second, I also think that contemporary genderfuckery—like drag that isn't trying to be \"fish\" or \"real\" (that is, to pass), public kink, and, heck, lolita and other androgynous-to-high-femme fashion subcultures—can be thought of as a proof-of-concept for such a society. I mean, just like how I can order a unisex Lolita dress in my size right now, maybe one day I can go into a clothing store where clothing is organized by type rather than by men's and women's.",
">\n\nYes, I believe nonbinary folk are transgender. \nI'm sorry, but I don't think I understand your dreams of a society without gender identities. It sounds like a recipe for disaster if there is lack of education on biology. Plus, the lack of teachings about transgenderism is what causes transphobia in the first place. Same with racism, misogyny, etc.",
">\n\nSo it seems that you're not fully convinced that gender is a social construct, which is not to say that it's not very consequential for how people live their lives. (This might be why you're getting pushback in queer circles, by the way; and I mean \"queer\" not, like, mainstream gay such as Pete Buttigieg, etc.)\nOne way of grasping that gender is wholly social is to think about animals. There are people who refer to all cats as female and all dogs as male, that is, with respective \"she\" and \"he\" pronouns, gendered descriptions (\"handsome,\" \"pretty\") etc. Any dog regardless of what genitalia it actually has can be referred to as if it were a \"boy\" dog; this would suggest that, unlike with people, there is no need to interpret physical appearance as if it indicated the kind of genitals. That dogs can be \"boys\" even after we flip them over and find (gasp) a vagina suggests that, first, genitalia do not necessarily indicate gender but only do so under contingent social conditions (e.g., genitalia on people), and, second, that, gender is not tied to biology but, rather, to what we understand biology to mean.",
">\n\nSo you're defining gender dysphoria in a post hoc way, if someone transitions then they have gender dysphoria, whether they say they're perfectly comfortable as they are or not.\nSo... what would change your mind? Because the way you're defining it makes this a non-falsifiable claim, you can always claim someone has dysphoria regardless of their testimony to the contrary.\nOr, how do you know someone has gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThere’s zero point in gatekeeping being transgender. By saying “You NEED gender dysphoria to be trans” is you saying “IF YOU KNOW THAT YOURE TRANS AND DONT HAVE GENDER DYSPHORIA YOURE NOT TRANS😡😡😡” This is also like saying if you haven’t been in a same sex relationship before then you can’t be gay.",
">\n\nForgive me if I missed something in your post to clarify, or this has already been said to death. But it seems you're classifying transgender as someone who wants an actual sex change. If that's what you're talking about, I would agree. Gender dysphoria is the only legitimate reason for doing that. But many trans people DON'T want surgery or hormones, they simply represent and identify as the gender they feel that are, and have no problem with their bodies being what they are.",
">\n\nDysphoria isn’t always a criteria imo you’ll hear enough trans folk who didn’t necessarily feel poorly about their body before transitioning/starting to transition if you spend enough time \nInstead we should be looking at euphoria, the feeling one gets when they feel the most ‘themselves’, which is a way greater tool imo \nBeing ‘meh’ or otherwise uncaring about male pronouns but feeling ‘ecstatic’ when someone uses female pronouns for you, whether they’re doing it accidentally or on purpose, could be a greater clue than a low level dissatisfaction or ambivalence about one’s current body or presentation, for example",
">\n\nThis past week there was a beautiful article about a man who chose to dress as a traditional female but was happily married to the same woman, for many years. If I can find the link I will post it but it was absolutely beautiful and if you read that article and do not change your mind I would be very surprised.",
">\n\n“A ‘real man’ in a dress” is an article in the Washington Post December 21. If you read this and it doesn’t change your mind I will be shocked.",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nFor fun. To rebel. Because you like how it looks. Because you want to experience something new. Because you can.\nMaybe I want to transform myself into a space dolphin so I can sail the liquid methane seas of Saturn's moon, Titan. Am I dysphoric? No, but if the technology is there, and society accepts me, that sounds like a lovely way of being.\nTranshumanism (of which transgenderism is sometimes considered a small part) is about accepting technological and social change and improving the human condition. Why not become something you aren't?",
">\n\nI don't not agree. The desire to be anything other than the gender you were born with doesn't always need dysphoria, all you need is the desire to experience and explore sexuality.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is not a criteria to be transgender. If you read the DSM you’ll see that being transgender is one explanation for gender dysphoria. The DSM defines interpersonal dysfunction. If a person is able to overcome struggles on their own, they will never receive a diagnosis. Therefore, the diagnosis of gender dysphoria means that a person is struggling with their gender identity. The diagnosis doesn’t mean anything beyond that.",
">\n\nDoes a trans person who socially and/or physically transitioned and is happy with their gender presentation (and therefore not experiencing dysphoria) stop being trans? \nAll you need to be trans is to have a gender identity that doesn't match the one assigned to you at birth. Current or previous suffering is not a determining factor.",
">\n\nYour subject line is false as stated as literally every diagnostic standard in the field attests. \nThis I a factual question, not an opinion."
] |
>
Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?
I don't know, but I have a close friend who did just that. I assure you she's quite trans.
It is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.
No it's not.
There are studies that show some population level differences between the brains of dysphoric binary trans women and cis folk, but none of them show a complete alignment with cis brains of either gender, none of them explain where gender identity or dysphoria arises from and how these differences might relate and none of them claim that the differences they do uncover are representative of every trans person.
I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria that they pushed down to mend well into society.
Nope. My friend for example doesn't recognise her pre transition life as bad or dysphoric, even now. She's post transition and has been for many years, and this just isn't her experience. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it.",
">\n\nCould you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.\nI associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.\nOnce someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel?",
">\n\n\nETA: everyone in the comments jumped on the argument of a post-everything trans person no longer feeling dysphoric. I will explain my stance on that here: if someone is ill and they receive continuous medication to block out/alleviate side effects of that illness, are they no longer ill? The answer is no.\n\nSo, this comparison doesn't really work.\nTaking continued medication is not the same as a gender transition. Continued medication to treat an illness has to be done on an ongoing basis, but a gender transition to overcome gender dysphoria is more like a one-and-done procedure.\nYour view would be more correct if it said \"to undergo a gender transition\", a one-time action, instead of \"be transgender\", a continuous state of being.",
">\n\nI guess, technically speaking, that is somewhat of my stance. I think transitioning should be allowed only in the case of gender dysphoria, and those who experience gender dysphoria are transgender. I don't quite understand how someone could be transgender and not experience dysphoria when that is what being transgender is — a biological issue. The continued question I keep asking is \"why would someone transition if they never experienced dysphoria to begin with?\" so I suppose that does correlate with gender dysphoria and transitioning.\nAlso, no, it is not a one-time solution type of thing. You need to take hormones monthly/weekly or your body will switch back to its biological sex. It requires continued treatment. If you stop taking hormones, a lot of the progress you made will be reverted. That is why I compared it to an illness.\nThe only exception is when you get that sex making organ removed (i.e ovaries for trans men), but even then, the ongoing use of medicine is required even more because otherwise your body won't have the hormones you need to continue on.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are transgender under your definition of gender dysphoria since their assigned sex at birth is incongruent with their gender identity. Some non-binary folks , however, myself included, hold out the hope of living in a society without gender identities. In that society, the concept of gender dysphoria would be incoherent; instead, everyone would have varying feelings about their bodies (The difference is between, on the one hand, being able to take for granted that some people have penises and feel okay about that, whereas other people have penises and don't, and, on the other, thinking that people who have penises and are not okay with them want to become women). Those with negative body feelings might undergo body modification surgery—but it wouldn't be gender re-assignment or affirming surgery in a society without gender. \nMy argument is, first, that if it's possible to conceive of such a society, then it's possible to conceive of a transgender person who does not experience gender dysphoria; instead, they merely experience body dysphoria. Second, I also think that contemporary genderfuckery—like drag that isn't trying to be \"fish\" or \"real\" (that is, to pass), public kink, and, heck, lolita and other androgynous-to-high-femme fashion subcultures—can be thought of as a proof-of-concept for such a society. I mean, just like how I can order a unisex Lolita dress in my size right now, maybe one day I can go into a clothing store where clothing is organized by type rather than by men's and women's.",
">\n\nYes, I believe nonbinary folk are transgender. \nI'm sorry, but I don't think I understand your dreams of a society without gender identities. It sounds like a recipe for disaster if there is lack of education on biology. Plus, the lack of teachings about transgenderism is what causes transphobia in the first place. Same with racism, misogyny, etc.",
">\n\nSo it seems that you're not fully convinced that gender is a social construct, which is not to say that it's not very consequential for how people live their lives. (This might be why you're getting pushback in queer circles, by the way; and I mean \"queer\" not, like, mainstream gay such as Pete Buttigieg, etc.)\nOne way of grasping that gender is wholly social is to think about animals. There are people who refer to all cats as female and all dogs as male, that is, with respective \"she\" and \"he\" pronouns, gendered descriptions (\"handsome,\" \"pretty\") etc. Any dog regardless of what genitalia it actually has can be referred to as if it were a \"boy\" dog; this would suggest that, unlike with people, there is no need to interpret physical appearance as if it indicated the kind of genitals. That dogs can be \"boys\" even after we flip them over and find (gasp) a vagina suggests that, first, genitalia do not necessarily indicate gender but only do so under contingent social conditions (e.g., genitalia on people), and, second, that, gender is not tied to biology but, rather, to what we understand biology to mean.",
">\n\nSo you're defining gender dysphoria in a post hoc way, if someone transitions then they have gender dysphoria, whether they say they're perfectly comfortable as they are or not.\nSo... what would change your mind? Because the way you're defining it makes this a non-falsifiable claim, you can always claim someone has dysphoria regardless of their testimony to the contrary.\nOr, how do you know someone has gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThere’s zero point in gatekeeping being transgender. By saying “You NEED gender dysphoria to be trans” is you saying “IF YOU KNOW THAT YOURE TRANS AND DONT HAVE GENDER DYSPHORIA YOURE NOT TRANS😡😡😡” This is also like saying if you haven’t been in a same sex relationship before then you can’t be gay.",
">\n\nForgive me if I missed something in your post to clarify, or this has already been said to death. But it seems you're classifying transgender as someone who wants an actual sex change. If that's what you're talking about, I would agree. Gender dysphoria is the only legitimate reason for doing that. But many trans people DON'T want surgery or hormones, they simply represent and identify as the gender they feel that are, and have no problem with their bodies being what they are.",
">\n\nDysphoria isn’t always a criteria imo you’ll hear enough trans folk who didn’t necessarily feel poorly about their body before transitioning/starting to transition if you spend enough time \nInstead we should be looking at euphoria, the feeling one gets when they feel the most ‘themselves’, which is a way greater tool imo \nBeing ‘meh’ or otherwise uncaring about male pronouns but feeling ‘ecstatic’ when someone uses female pronouns for you, whether they’re doing it accidentally or on purpose, could be a greater clue than a low level dissatisfaction or ambivalence about one’s current body or presentation, for example",
">\n\nThis past week there was a beautiful article about a man who chose to dress as a traditional female but was happily married to the same woman, for many years. If I can find the link I will post it but it was absolutely beautiful and if you read that article and do not change your mind I would be very surprised.",
">\n\n“A ‘real man’ in a dress” is an article in the Washington Post December 21. If you read this and it doesn’t change your mind I will be shocked.",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nFor fun. To rebel. Because you like how it looks. Because you want to experience something new. Because you can.\nMaybe I want to transform myself into a space dolphin so I can sail the liquid methane seas of Saturn's moon, Titan. Am I dysphoric? No, but if the technology is there, and society accepts me, that sounds like a lovely way of being.\nTranshumanism (of which transgenderism is sometimes considered a small part) is about accepting technological and social change and improving the human condition. Why not become something you aren't?",
">\n\nI don't not agree. The desire to be anything other than the gender you were born with doesn't always need dysphoria, all you need is the desire to experience and explore sexuality.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is not a criteria to be transgender. If you read the DSM you’ll see that being transgender is one explanation for gender dysphoria. The DSM defines interpersonal dysfunction. If a person is able to overcome struggles on their own, they will never receive a diagnosis. Therefore, the diagnosis of gender dysphoria means that a person is struggling with their gender identity. The diagnosis doesn’t mean anything beyond that.",
">\n\nDoes a trans person who socially and/or physically transitioned and is happy with their gender presentation (and therefore not experiencing dysphoria) stop being trans? \nAll you need to be trans is to have a gender identity that doesn't match the one assigned to you at birth. Current or previous suffering is not a determining factor.",
">\n\nYour subject line is false as stated as literally every diagnostic standard in the field attests. \nThis I a factual question, not an opinion.",
">\n\nAlmost every transgender/non-binary person I know has attributed it to dysphoria itself, or dysphoria brought on by trauma, so I can’t exactly disagree on that, but I disagree that men can walk around with no problems. Are they the same problems as women’s problems? Probably not but they do have things to fear. My mom’s friend’s son was shot randomly at a red light for looking at someone. All he did was glance. Dude walked up and said, “Tf you looking at?” and shot him. Another guy was shot in his car in his parking spot in the lot in front of his apartment. All he was doing was listening to music about to go to a friend’s house. Men still get jumped and robbed."
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See so many dudes walking around my suburb in dresses now who clearly aren’t trans and totally just doing it to get attention | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it.",
">\n\nCould you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.\nI associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.\nOnce someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel?",
">\n\n\nETA: everyone in the comments jumped on the argument of a post-everything trans person no longer feeling dysphoric. I will explain my stance on that here: if someone is ill and they receive continuous medication to block out/alleviate side effects of that illness, are they no longer ill? The answer is no.\n\nSo, this comparison doesn't really work.\nTaking continued medication is not the same as a gender transition. Continued medication to treat an illness has to be done on an ongoing basis, but a gender transition to overcome gender dysphoria is more like a one-and-done procedure.\nYour view would be more correct if it said \"to undergo a gender transition\", a one-time action, instead of \"be transgender\", a continuous state of being.",
">\n\nI guess, technically speaking, that is somewhat of my stance. I think transitioning should be allowed only in the case of gender dysphoria, and those who experience gender dysphoria are transgender. I don't quite understand how someone could be transgender and not experience dysphoria when that is what being transgender is — a biological issue. The continued question I keep asking is \"why would someone transition if they never experienced dysphoria to begin with?\" so I suppose that does correlate with gender dysphoria and transitioning.\nAlso, no, it is not a one-time solution type of thing. You need to take hormones monthly/weekly or your body will switch back to its biological sex. It requires continued treatment. If you stop taking hormones, a lot of the progress you made will be reverted. That is why I compared it to an illness.\nThe only exception is when you get that sex making organ removed (i.e ovaries for trans men), but even then, the ongoing use of medicine is required even more because otherwise your body won't have the hormones you need to continue on.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are transgender under your definition of gender dysphoria since their assigned sex at birth is incongruent with their gender identity. Some non-binary folks , however, myself included, hold out the hope of living in a society without gender identities. In that society, the concept of gender dysphoria would be incoherent; instead, everyone would have varying feelings about their bodies (The difference is between, on the one hand, being able to take for granted that some people have penises and feel okay about that, whereas other people have penises and don't, and, on the other, thinking that people who have penises and are not okay with them want to become women). Those with negative body feelings might undergo body modification surgery—but it wouldn't be gender re-assignment or affirming surgery in a society without gender. \nMy argument is, first, that if it's possible to conceive of such a society, then it's possible to conceive of a transgender person who does not experience gender dysphoria; instead, they merely experience body dysphoria. Second, I also think that contemporary genderfuckery—like drag that isn't trying to be \"fish\" or \"real\" (that is, to pass), public kink, and, heck, lolita and other androgynous-to-high-femme fashion subcultures—can be thought of as a proof-of-concept for such a society. I mean, just like how I can order a unisex Lolita dress in my size right now, maybe one day I can go into a clothing store where clothing is organized by type rather than by men's and women's.",
">\n\nYes, I believe nonbinary folk are transgender. \nI'm sorry, but I don't think I understand your dreams of a society without gender identities. It sounds like a recipe for disaster if there is lack of education on biology. Plus, the lack of teachings about transgenderism is what causes transphobia in the first place. Same with racism, misogyny, etc.",
">\n\nSo it seems that you're not fully convinced that gender is a social construct, which is not to say that it's not very consequential for how people live their lives. (This might be why you're getting pushback in queer circles, by the way; and I mean \"queer\" not, like, mainstream gay such as Pete Buttigieg, etc.)\nOne way of grasping that gender is wholly social is to think about animals. There are people who refer to all cats as female and all dogs as male, that is, with respective \"she\" and \"he\" pronouns, gendered descriptions (\"handsome,\" \"pretty\") etc. Any dog regardless of what genitalia it actually has can be referred to as if it were a \"boy\" dog; this would suggest that, unlike with people, there is no need to interpret physical appearance as if it indicated the kind of genitals. That dogs can be \"boys\" even after we flip them over and find (gasp) a vagina suggests that, first, genitalia do not necessarily indicate gender but only do so under contingent social conditions (e.g., genitalia on people), and, second, that, gender is not tied to biology but, rather, to what we understand biology to mean.",
">\n\nSo you're defining gender dysphoria in a post hoc way, if someone transitions then they have gender dysphoria, whether they say they're perfectly comfortable as they are or not.\nSo... what would change your mind? Because the way you're defining it makes this a non-falsifiable claim, you can always claim someone has dysphoria regardless of their testimony to the contrary.\nOr, how do you know someone has gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThere’s zero point in gatekeeping being transgender. By saying “You NEED gender dysphoria to be trans” is you saying “IF YOU KNOW THAT YOURE TRANS AND DONT HAVE GENDER DYSPHORIA YOURE NOT TRANS😡😡😡” This is also like saying if you haven’t been in a same sex relationship before then you can’t be gay.",
">\n\nForgive me if I missed something in your post to clarify, or this has already been said to death. But it seems you're classifying transgender as someone who wants an actual sex change. If that's what you're talking about, I would agree. Gender dysphoria is the only legitimate reason for doing that. But many trans people DON'T want surgery or hormones, they simply represent and identify as the gender they feel that are, and have no problem with their bodies being what they are.",
">\n\nDysphoria isn’t always a criteria imo you’ll hear enough trans folk who didn’t necessarily feel poorly about their body before transitioning/starting to transition if you spend enough time \nInstead we should be looking at euphoria, the feeling one gets when they feel the most ‘themselves’, which is a way greater tool imo \nBeing ‘meh’ or otherwise uncaring about male pronouns but feeling ‘ecstatic’ when someone uses female pronouns for you, whether they’re doing it accidentally or on purpose, could be a greater clue than a low level dissatisfaction or ambivalence about one’s current body or presentation, for example",
">\n\nThis past week there was a beautiful article about a man who chose to dress as a traditional female but was happily married to the same woman, for many years. If I can find the link I will post it but it was absolutely beautiful and if you read that article and do not change your mind I would be very surprised.",
">\n\n“A ‘real man’ in a dress” is an article in the Washington Post December 21. If you read this and it doesn’t change your mind I will be shocked.",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nFor fun. To rebel. Because you like how it looks. Because you want to experience something new. Because you can.\nMaybe I want to transform myself into a space dolphin so I can sail the liquid methane seas of Saturn's moon, Titan. Am I dysphoric? No, but if the technology is there, and society accepts me, that sounds like a lovely way of being.\nTranshumanism (of which transgenderism is sometimes considered a small part) is about accepting technological and social change and improving the human condition. Why not become something you aren't?",
">\n\nI don't not agree. The desire to be anything other than the gender you were born with doesn't always need dysphoria, all you need is the desire to experience and explore sexuality.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is not a criteria to be transgender. If you read the DSM you’ll see that being transgender is one explanation for gender dysphoria. The DSM defines interpersonal dysfunction. If a person is able to overcome struggles on their own, they will never receive a diagnosis. Therefore, the diagnosis of gender dysphoria means that a person is struggling with their gender identity. The diagnosis doesn’t mean anything beyond that.",
">\n\nDoes a trans person who socially and/or physically transitioned and is happy with their gender presentation (and therefore not experiencing dysphoria) stop being trans? \nAll you need to be trans is to have a gender identity that doesn't match the one assigned to you at birth. Current or previous suffering is not a determining factor.",
">\n\nYour subject line is false as stated as literally every diagnostic standard in the field attests. \nThis I a factual question, not an opinion.",
">\n\nAlmost every transgender/non-binary person I know has attributed it to dysphoria itself, or dysphoria brought on by trauma, so I can’t exactly disagree on that, but I disagree that men can walk around with no problems. Are they the same problems as women’s problems? Probably not but they do have things to fear. My mom’s friend’s son was shot randomly at a red light for looking at someone. All he did was glance. Dude walked up and said, “Tf you looking at?” and shot him. Another guy was shot in his car in his parking spot in the lot in front of his apartment. All he was doing was listening to music about to go to a friend’s house. Men still get jumped and robbed.",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nI don't know, but I have a close friend who did just that. I assure you she's quite trans.\n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nNo it's not.\nThere are studies that show some population level differences between the brains of dysphoric binary trans women and cis folk, but none of them show a complete alignment with cis brains of either gender, none of them explain where gender identity or dysphoria arises from and how these differences might relate and none of them claim that the differences they do uncover are representative of every trans person. \n\nI believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria that they pushed down to mend well into society.\n\nNope. My friend for example doesn't recognise her pre transition life as bad or dysphoric, even now. She's post transition and has been for many years, and this just isn't her experience."
] |
>
By definition, gender dysphoria is quite literally a prerequisite to transgenderism, but that doesn’t make their preferred identification or gender any less real. Just because gender dysphoria is by-the-books a disease, it doesn’t mean it needs to continue being classified as one. The overall opinion on gender dysphoria is a lot more nuanced than it used be. If all of your opinions are shaped by books written on historical norms, then sure, you are correct in a world that never adapts.
The issue is you maintain gender dysphoria is a bad thing just because that’s what you’ve always been told. The “condition” is likely just a sign that transitioning could be a mentally healthy decision for the dysphoric person. If you are willing to admit that transitioning can provide relief to a person, then you are also admitting that there can be truth to the gender dysphoria a person feels. The current definition and your definition of gender dysphoria is based on the principle that the dysphoric person is experiencing incorrect feelings. It would be pedantic of you to suggest your definition of gender dysphoria is not severely outdated. Therefore, there really is no productive outcome from your argument.
I can say you’re right, but I can also say your outdated perception of gender dysphoria is the reason you feel this take needs to be argued in the first place. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it.",
">\n\nCould you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.\nI associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.\nOnce someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel?",
">\n\n\nETA: everyone in the comments jumped on the argument of a post-everything trans person no longer feeling dysphoric. I will explain my stance on that here: if someone is ill and they receive continuous medication to block out/alleviate side effects of that illness, are they no longer ill? The answer is no.\n\nSo, this comparison doesn't really work.\nTaking continued medication is not the same as a gender transition. Continued medication to treat an illness has to be done on an ongoing basis, but a gender transition to overcome gender dysphoria is more like a one-and-done procedure.\nYour view would be more correct if it said \"to undergo a gender transition\", a one-time action, instead of \"be transgender\", a continuous state of being.",
">\n\nI guess, technically speaking, that is somewhat of my stance. I think transitioning should be allowed only in the case of gender dysphoria, and those who experience gender dysphoria are transgender. I don't quite understand how someone could be transgender and not experience dysphoria when that is what being transgender is — a biological issue. The continued question I keep asking is \"why would someone transition if they never experienced dysphoria to begin with?\" so I suppose that does correlate with gender dysphoria and transitioning.\nAlso, no, it is not a one-time solution type of thing. You need to take hormones monthly/weekly or your body will switch back to its biological sex. It requires continued treatment. If you stop taking hormones, a lot of the progress you made will be reverted. That is why I compared it to an illness.\nThe only exception is when you get that sex making organ removed (i.e ovaries for trans men), but even then, the ongoing use of medicine is required even more because otherwise your body won't have the hormones you need to continue on.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are transgender under your definition of gender dysphoria since their assigned sex at birth is incongruent with their gender identity. Some non-binary folks , however, myself included, hold out the hope of living in a society without gender identities. In that society, the concept of gender dysphoria would be incoherent; instead, everyone would have varying feelings about their bodies (The difference is between, on the one hand, being able to take for granted that some people have penises and feel okay about that, whereas other people have penises and don't, and, on the other, thinking that people who have penises and are not okay with them want to become women). Those with negative body feelings might undergo body modification surgery—but it wouldn't be gender re-assignment or affirming surgery in a society without gender. \nMy argument is, first, that if it's possible to conceive of such a society, then it's possible to conceive of a transgender person who does not experience gender dysphoria; instead, they merely experience body dysphoria. Second, I also think that contemporary genderfuckery—like drag that isn't trying to be \"fish\" or \"real\" (that is, to pass), public kink, and, heck, lolita and other androgynous-to-high-femme fashion subcultures—can be thought of as a proof-of-concept for such a society. I mean, just like how I can order a unisex Lolita dress in my size right now, maybe one day I can go into a clothing store where clothing is organized by type rather than by men's and women's.",
">\n\nYes, I believe nonbinary folk are transgender. \nI'm sorry, but I don't think I understand your dreams of a society without gender identities. It sounds like a recipe for disaster if there is lack of education on biology. Plus, the lack of teachings about transgenderism is what causes transphobia in the first place. Same with racism, misogyny, etc.",
">\n\nSo it seems that you're not fully convinced that gender is a social construct, which is not to say that it's not very consequential for how people live their lives. (This might be why you're getting pushback in queer circles, by the way; and I mean \"queer\" not, like, mainstream gay such as Pete Buttigieg, etc.)\nOne way of grasping that gender is wholly social is to think about animals. There are people who refer to all cats as female and all dogs as male, that is, with respective \"she\" and \"he\" pronouns, gendered descriptions (\"handsome,\" \"pretty\") etc. Any dog regardless of what genitalia it actually has can be referred to as if it were a \"boy\" dog; this would suggest that, unlike with people, there is no need to interpret physical appearance as if it indicated the kind of genitals. That dogs can be \"boys\" even after we flip them over and find (gasp) a vagina suggests that, first, genitalia do not necessarily indicate gender but only do so under contingent social conditions (e.g., genitalia on people), and, second, that, gender is not tied to biology but, rather, to what we understand biology to mean.",
">\n\nSo you're defining gender dysphoria in a post hoc way, if someone transitions then they have gender dysphoria, whether they say they're perfectly comfortable as they are or not.\nSo... what would change your mind? Because the way you're defining it makes this a non-falsifiable claim, you can always claim someone has dysphoria regardless of their testimony to the contrary.\nOr, how do you know someone has gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThere’s zero point in gatekeeping being transgender. By saying “You NEED gender dysphoria to be trans” is you saying “IF YOU KNOW THAT YOURE TRANS AND DONT HAVE GENDER DYSPHORIA YOURE NOT TRANS😡😡😡” This is also like saying if you haven’t been in a same sex relationship before then you can’t be gay.",
">\n\nForgive me if I missed something in your post to clarify, or this has already been said to death. But it seems you're classifying transgender as someone who wants an actual sex change. If that's what you're talking about, I would agree. Gender dysphoria is the only legitimate reason for doing that. But many trans people DON'T want surgery or hormones, they simply represent and identify as the gender they feel that are, and have no problem with their bodies being what they are.",
">\n\nDysphoria isn’t always a criteria imo you’ll hear enough trans folk who didn’t necessarily feel poorly about their body before transitioning/starting to transition if you spend enough time \nInstead we should be looking at euphoria, the feeling one gets when they feel the most ‘themselves’, which is a way greater tool imo \nBeing ‘meh’ or otherwise uncaring about male pronouns but feeling ‘ecstatic’ when someone uses female pronouns for you, whether they’re doing it accidentally or on purpose, could be a greater clue than a low level dissatisfaction or ambivalence about one’s current body or presentation, for example",
">\n\nThis past week there was a beautiful article about a man who chose to dress as a traditional female but was happily married to the same woman, for many years. If I can find the link I will post it but it was absolutely beautiful and if you read that article and do not change your mind I would be very surprised.",
">\n\n“A ‘real man’ in a dress” is an article in the Washington Post December 21. If you read this and it doesn’t change your mind I will be shocked.",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nFor fun. To rebel. Because you like how it looks. Because you want to experience something new. Because you can.\nMaybe I want to transform myself into a space dolphin so I can sail the liquid methane seas of Saturn's moon, Titan. Am I dysphoric? No, but if the technology is there, and society accepts me, that sounds like a lovely way of being.\nTranshumanism (of which transgenderism is sometimes considered a small part) is about accepting technological and social change and improving the human condition. Why not become something you aren't?",
">\n\nI don't not agree. The desire to be anything other than the gender you were born with doesn't always need dysphoria, all you need is the desire to experience and explore sexuality.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is not a criteria to be transgender. If you read the DSM you’ll see that being transgender is one explanation for gender dysphoria. The DSM defines interpersonal dysfunction. If a person is able to overcome struggles on their own, they will never receive a diagnosis. Therefore, the diagnosis of gender dysphoria means that a person is struggling with their gender identity. The diagnosis doesn’t mean anything beyond that.",
">\n\nDoes a trans person who socially and/or physically transitioned and is happy with their gender presentation (and therefore not experiencing dysphoria) stop being trans? \nAll you need to be trans is to have a gender identity that doesn't match the one assigned to you at birth. Current or previous suffering is not a determining factor.",
">\n\nYour subject line is false as stated as literally every diagnostic standard in the field attests. \nThis I a factual question, not an opinion.",
">\n\nAlmost every transgender/non-binary person I know has attributed it to dysphoria itself, or dysphoria brought on by trauma, so I can’t exactly disagree on that, but I disagree that men can walk around with no problems. Are they the same problems as women’s problems? Probably not but they do have things to fear. My mom’s friend’s son was shot randomly at a red light for looking at someone. All he did was glance. Dude walked up and said, “Tf you looking at?” and shot him. Another guy was shot in his car in his parking spot in the lot in front of his apartment. All he was doing was listening to music about to go to a friend’s house. Men still get jumped and robbed.",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nI don't know, but I have a close friend who did just that. I assure you she's quite trans.\n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nNo it's not.\nThere are studies that show some population level differences between the brains of dysphoric binary trans women and cis folk, but none of them show a complete alignment with cis brains of either gender, none of them explain where gender identity or dysphoria arises from and how these differences might relate and none of them claim that the differences they do uncover are representative of every trans person. \n\nI believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria that they pushed down to mend well into society.\n\nNope. My friend for example doesn't recognise her pre transition life as bad or dysphoric, even now. She's post transition and has been for many years, and this just isn't her experience.",
">\n\nSee so many dudes walking around my suburb in dresses now who clearly aren’t trans and totally just doing it to get attention"
] |
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There's a big difference between philosophy and science, I think you need to start listening to science. It sounds to me like you're constantly trying to preach philosophy to circles of experts with lived experience and not willing to hear them. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it.",
">\n\nCould you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.\nI associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.\nOnce someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel?",
">\n\n\nETA: everyone in the comments jumped on the argument of a post-everything trans person no longer feeling dysphoric. I will explain my stance on that here: if someone is ill and they receive continuous medication to block out/alleviate side effects of that illness, are they no longer ill? The answer is no.\n\nSo, this comparison doesn't really work.\nTaking continued medication is not the same as a gender transition. Continued medication to treat an illness has to be done on an ongoing basis, but a gender transition to overcome gender dysphoria is more like a one-and-done procedure.\nYour view would be more correct if it said \"to undergo a gender transition\", a one-time action, instead of \"be transgender\", a continuous state of being.",
">\n\nI guess, technically speaking, that is somewhat of my stance. I think transitioning should be allowed only in the case of gender dysphoria, and those who experience gender dysphoria are transgender. I don't quite understand how someone could be transgender and not experience dysphoria when that is what being transgender is — a biological issue. The continued question I keep asking is \"why would someone transition if they never experienced dysphoria to begin with?\" so I suppose that does correlate with gender dysphoria and transitioning.\nAlso, no, it is not a one-time solution type of thing. You need to take hormones monthly/weekly or your body will switch back to its biological sex. It requires continued treatment. If you stop taking hormones, a lot of the progress you made will be reverted. That is why I compared it to an illness.\nThe only exception is when you get that sex making organ removed (i.e ovaries for trans men), but even then, the ongoing use of medicine is required even more because otherwise your body won't have the hormones you need to continue on.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are transgender under your definition of gender dysphoria since their assigned sex at birth is incongruent with their gender identity. Some non-binary folks , however, myself included, hold out the hope of living in a society without gender identities. In that society, the concept of gender dysphoria would be incoherent; instead, everyone would have varying feelings about their bodies (The difference is between, on the one hand, being able to take for granted that some people have penises and feel okay about that, whereas other people have penises and don't, and, on the other, thinking that people who have penises and are not okay with them want to become women). Those with negative body feelings might undergo body modification surgery—but it wouldn't be gender re-assignment or affirming surgery in a society without gender. \nMy argument is, first, that if it's possible to conceive of such a society, then it's possible to conceive of a transgender person who does not experience gender dysphoria; instead, they merely experience body dysphoria. Second, I also think that contemporary genderfuckery—like drag that isn't trying to be \"fish\" or \"real\" (that is, to pass), public kink, and, heck, lolita and other androgynous-to-high-femme fashion subcultures—can be thought of as a proof-of-concept for such a society. I mean, just like how I can order a unisex Lolita dress in my size right now, maybe one day I can go into a clothing store where clothing is organized by type rather than by men's and women's.",
">\n\nYes, I believe nonbinary folk are transgender. \nI'm sorry, but I don't think I understand your dreams of a society without gender identities. It sounds like a recipe for disaster if there is lack of education on biology. Plus, the lack of teachings about transgenderism is what causes transphobia in the first place. Same with racism, misogyny, etc.",
">\n\nSo it seems that you're not fully convinced that gender is a social construct, which is not to say that it's not very consequential for how people live their lives. (This might be why you're getting pushback in queer circles, by the way; and I mean \"queer\" not, like, mainstream gay such as Pete Buttigieg, etc.)\nOne way of grasping that gender is wholly social is to think about animals. There are people who refer to all cats as female and all dogs as male, that is, with respective \"she\" and \"he\" pronouns, gendered descriptions (\"handsome,\" \"pretty\") etc. Any dog regardless of what genitalia it actually has can be referred to as if it were a \"boy\" dog; this would suggest that, unlike with people, there is no need to interpret physical appearance as if it indicated the kind of genitals. That dogs can be \"boys\" even after we flip them over and find (gasp) a vagina suggests that, first, genitalia do not necessarily indicate gender but only do so under contingent social conditions (e.g., genitalia on people), and, second, that, gender is not tied to biology but, rather, to what we understand biology to mean.",
">\n\nSo you're defining gender dysphoria in a post hoc way, if someone transitions then they have gender dysphoria, whether they say they're perfectly comfortable as they are or not.\nSo... what would change your mind? Because the way you're defining it makes this a non-falsifiable claim, you can always claim someone has dysphoria regardless of their testimony to the contrary.\nOr, how do you know someone has gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThere’s zero point in gatekeeping being transgender. By saying “You NEED gender dysphoria to be trans” is you saying “IF YOU KNOW THAT YOURE TRANS AND DONT HAVE GENDER DYSPHORIA YOURE NOT TRANS😡😡😡” This is also like saying if you haven’t been in a same sex relationship before then you can’t be gay.",
">\n\nForgive me if I missed something in your post to clarify, or this has already been said to death. But it seems you're classifying transgender as someone who wants an actual sex change. If that's what you're talking about, I would agree. Gender dysphoria is the only legitimate reason for doing that. But many trans people DON'T want surgery or hormones, they simply represent and identify as the gender they feel that are, and have no problem with their bodies being what they are.",
">\n\nDysphoria isn’t always a criteria imo you’ll hear enough trans folk who didn’t necessarily feel poorly about their body before transitioning/starting to transition if you spend enough time \nInstead we should be looking at euphoria, the feeling one gets when they feel the most ‘themselves’, which is a way greater tool imo \nBeing ‘meh’ or otherwise uncaring about male pronouns but feeling ‘ecstatic’ when someone uses female pronouns for you, whether they’re doing it accidentally or on purpose, could be a greater clue than a low level dissatisfaction or ambivalence about one’s current body or presentation, for example",
">\n\nThis past week there was a beautiful article about a man who chose to dress as a traditional female but was happily married to the same woman, for many years. If I can find the link I will post it but it was absolutely beautiful and if you read that article and do not change your mind I would be very surprised.",
">\n\n“A ‘real man’ in a dress” is an article in the Washington Post December 21. If you read this and it doesn’t change your mind I will be shocked.",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nFor fun. To rebel. Because you like how it looks. Because you want to experience something new. Because you can.\nMaybe I want to transform myself into a space dolphin so I can sail the liquid methane seas of Saturn's moon, Titan. Am I dysphoric? No, but if the technology is there, and society accepts me, that sounds like a lovely way of being.\nTranshumanism (of which transgenderism is sometimes considered a small part) is about accepting technological and social change and improving the human condition. Why not become something you aren't?",
">\n\nI don't not agree. The desire to be anything other than the gender you were born with doesn't always need dysphoria, all you need is the desire to experience and explore sexuality.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is not a criteria to be transgender. If you read the DSM you’ll see that being transgender is one explanation for gender dysphoria. The DSM defines interpersonal dysfunction. If a person is able to overcome struggles on their own, they will never receive a diagnosis. Therefore, the diagnosis of gender dysphoria means that a person is struggling with their gender identity. The diagnosis doesn’t mean anything beyond that.",
">\n\nDoes a trans person who socially and/or physically transitioned and is happy with their gender presentation (and therefore not experiencing dysphoria) stop being trans? \nAll you need to be trans is to have a gender identity that doesn't match the one assigned to you at birth. Current or previous suffering is not a determining factor.",
">\n\nYour subject line is false as stated as literally every diagnostic standard in the field attests. \nThis I a factual question, not an opinion.",
">\n\nAlmost every transgender/non-binary person I know has attributed it to dysphoria itself, or dysphoria brought on by trauma, so I can’t exactly disagree on that, but I disagree that men can walk around with no problems. Are they the same problems as women’s problems? Probably not but they do have things to fear. My mom’s friend’s son was shot randomly at a red light for looking at someone. All he did was glance. Dude walked up and said, “Tf you looking at?” and shot him. Another guy was shot in his car in his parking spot in the lot in front of his apartment. All he was doing was listening to music about to go to a friend’s house. Men still get jumped and robbed.",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nI don't know, but I have a close friend who did just that. I assure you she's quite trans.\n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nNo it's not.\nThere are studies that show some population level differences between the brains of dysphoric binary trans women and cis folk, but none of them show a complete alignment with cis brains of either gender, none of them explain where gender identity or dysphoria arises from and how these differences might relate and none of them claim that the differences they do uncover are representative of every trans person. \n\nI believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria that they pushed down to mend well into society.\n\nNope. My friend for example doesn't recognise her pre transition life as bad or dysphoric, even now. She's post transition and has been for many years, and this just isn't her experience.",
">\n\nSee so many dudes walking around my suburb in dresses now who clearly aren’t trans and totally just doing it to get attention",
">\n\nBy definition, gender dysphoria is quite literally a prerequisite to transgenderism, but that doesn’t make their preferred identification or gender any less real. Just because gender dysphoria is by-the-books a disease, it doesn’t mean it needs to continue being classified as one. The overall opinion on gender dysphoria is a lot more nuanced than it used be. If all of your opinions are shaped by books written on historical norms, then sure, you are correct in a world that never adapts.\nThe issue is you maintain gender dysphoria is a bad thing just because that’s what you’ve always been told. The “condition” is likely just a sign that transitioning could be a mentally healthy decision for the dysphoric person. If you are willing to admit that transitioning can provide relief to a person, then you are also admitting that there can be truth to the gender dysphoria a person feels. The current definition and your definition of gender dysphoria is based on the principle that the dysphoric person is experiencing incorrect feelings. It would be pedantic of you to suggest your definition of gender dysphoria is not severely outdated. Therefore, there really is no productive outcome from your argument.\nI can say you’re right, but I can also say your outdated perception of gender dysphoria is the reason you feel this take needs to be argued in the first place."
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There's gender euphoria without gender dysphoria. Maybe you don't mind being addressed as your agab, but feel more happy and comfortable being trans. That's still valid. Also gender is just a fricking consept, it doesnt matter what your push factor is to being trans as long as you're not intentionally hurting someone and are being genuine to who you are. I think its awesome that there are trans people who don't experience dysphoria, good for them. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it.",
">\n\nCould you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.\nI associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.\nOnce someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel?",
">\n\n\nETA: everyone in the comments jumped on the argument of a post-everything trans person no longer feeling dysphoric. I will explain my stance on that here: if someone is ill and they receive continuous medication to block out/alleviate side effects of that illness, are they no longer ill? The answer is no.\n\nSo, this comparison doesn't really work.\nTaking continued medication is not the same as a gender transition. Continued medication to treat an illness has to be done on an ongoing basis, but a gender transition to overcome gender dysphoria is more like a one-and-done procedure.\nYour view would be more correct if it said \"to undergo a gender transition\", a one-time action, instead of \"be transgender\", a continuous state of being.",
">\n\nI guess, technically speaking, that is somewhat of my stance. I think transitioning should be allowed only in the case of gender dysphoria, and those who experience gender dysphoria are transgender. I don't quite understand how someone could be transgender and not experience dysphoria when that is what being transgender is — a biological issue. The continued question I keep asking is \"why would someone transition if they never experienced dysphoria to begin with?\" so I suppose that does correlate with gender dysphoria and transitioning.\nAlso, no, it is not a one-time solution type of thing. You need to take hormones monthly/weekly or your body will switch back to its biological sex. It requires continued treatment. If you stop taking hormones, a lot of the progress you made will be reverted. That is why I compared it to an illness.\nThe only exception is when you get that sex making organ removed (i.e ovaries for trans men), but even then, the ongoing use of medicine is required even more because otherwise your body won't have the hormones you need to continue on.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are transgender under your definition of gender dysphoria since their assigned sex at birth is incongruent with their gender identity. Some non-binary folks , however, myself included, hold out the hope of living in a society without gender identities. In that society, the concept of gender dysphoria would be incoherent; instead, everyone would have varying feelings about their bodies (The difference is between, on the one hand, being able to take for granted that some people have penises and feel okay about that, whereas other people have penises and don't, and, on the other, thinking that people who have penises and are not okay with them want to become women). Those with negative body feelings might undergo body modification surgery—but it wouldn't be gender re-assignment or affirming surgery in a society without gender. \nMy argument is, first, that if it's possible to conceive of such a society, then it's possible to conceive of a transgender person who does not experience gender dysphoria; instead, they merely experience body dysphoria. Second, I also think that contemporary genderfuckery—like drag that isn't trying to be \"fish\" or \"real\" (that is, to pass), public kink, and, heck, lolita and other androgynous-to-high-femme fashion subcultures—can be thought of as a proof-of-concept for such a society. I mean, just like how I can order a unisex Lolita dress in my size right now, maybe one day I can go into a clothing store where clothing is organized by type rather than by men's and women's.",
">\n\nYes, I believe nonbinary folk are transgender. \nI'm sorry, but I don't think I understand your dreams of a society without gender identities. It sounds like a recipe for disaster if there is lack of education on biology. Plus, the lack of teachings about transgenderism is what causes transphobia in the first place. Same with racism, misogyny, etc.",
">\n\nSo it seems that you're not fully convinced that gender is a social construct, which is not to say that it's not very consequential for how people live their lives. (This might be why you're getting pushback in queer circles, by the way; and I mean \"queer\" not, like, mainstream gay such as Pete Buttigieg, etc.)\nOne way of grasping that gender is wholly social is to think about animals. There are people who refer to all cats as female and all dogs as male, that is, with respective \"she\" and \"he\" pronouns, gendered descriptions (\"handsome,\" \"pretty\") etc. Any dog regardless of what genitalia it actually has can be referred to as if it were a \"boy\" dog; this would suggest that, unlike with people, there is no need to interpret physical appearance as if it indicated the kind of genitals. That dogs can be \"boys\" even after we flip them over and find (gasp) a vagina suggests that, first, genitalia do not necessarily indicate gender but only do so under contingent social conditions (e.g., genitalia on people), and, second, that, gender is not tied to biology but, rather, to what we understand biology to mean.",
">\n\nSo you're defining gender dysphoria in a post hoc way, if someone transitions then they have gender dysphoria, whether they say they're perfectly comfortable as they are or not.\nSo... what would change your mind? Because the way you're defining it makes this a non-falsifiable claim, you can always claim someone has dysphoria regardless of their testimony to the contrary.\nOr, how do you know someone has gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThere’s zero point in gatekeeping being transgender. By saying “You NEED gender dysphoria to be trans” is you saying “IF YOU KNOW THAT YOURE TRANS AND DONT HAVE GENDER DYSPHORIA YOURE NOT TRANS😡😡😡” This is also like saying if you haven’t been in a same sex relationship before then you can’t be gay.",
">\n\nForgive me if I missed something in your post to clarify, or this has already been said to death. But it seems you're classifying transgender as someone who wants an actual sex change. If that's what you're talking about, I would agree. Gender dysphoria is the only legitimate reason for doing that. But many trans people DON'T want surgery or hormones, they simply represent and identify as the gender they feel that are, and have no problem with their bodies being what they are.",
">\n\nDysphoria isn’t always a criteria imo you’ll hear enough trans folk who didn’t necessarily feel poorly about their body before transitioning/starting to transition if you spend enough time \nInstead we should be looking at euphoria, the feeling one gets when they feel the most ‘themselves’, which is a way greater tool imo \nBeing ‘meh’ or otherwise uncaring about male pronouns but feeling ‘ecstatic’ when someone uses female pronouns for you, whether they’re doing it accidentally or on purpose, could be a greater clue than a low level dissatisfaction or ambivalence about one’s current body or presentation, for example",
">\n\nThis past week there was a beautiful article about a man who chose to dress as a traditional female but was happily married to the same woman, for many years. If I can find the link I will post it but it was absolutely beautiful and if you read that article and do not change your mind I would be very surprised.",
">\n\n“A ‘real man’ in a dress” is an article in the Washington Post December 21. If you read this and it doesn’t change your mind I will be shocked.",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nFor fun. To rebel. Because you like how it looks. Because you want to experience something new. Because you can.\nMaybe I want to transform myself into a space dolphin so I can sail the liquid methane seas of Saturn's moon, Titan. Am I dysphoric? No, but if the technology is there, and society accepts me, that sounds like a lovely way of being.\nTranshumanism (of which transgenderism is sometimes considered a small part) is about accepting technological and social change and improving the human condition. Why not become something you aren't?",
">\n\nI don't not agree. The desire to be anything other than the gender you were born with doesn't always need dysphoria, all you need is the desire to experience and explore sexuality.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is not a criteria to be transgender. If you read the DSM you’ll see that being transgender is one explanation for gender dysphoria. The DSM defines interpersonal dysfunction. If a person is able to overcome struggles on their own, they will never receive a diagnosis. Therefore, the diagnosis of gender dysphoria means that a person is struggling with their gender identity. The diagnosis doesn’t mean anything beyond that.",
">\n\nDoes a trans person who socially and/or physically transitioned and is happy with their gender presentation (and therefore not experiencing dysphoria) stop being trans? \nAll you need to be trans is to have a gender identity that doesn't match the one assigned to you at birth. Current or previous suffering is not a determining factor.",
">\n\nYour subject line is false as stated as literally every diagnostic standard in the field attests. \nThis I a factual question, not an opinion.",
">\n\nAlmost every transgender/non-binary person I know has attributed it to dysphoria itself, or dysphoria brought on by trauma, so I can’t exactly disagree on that, but I disagree that men can walk around with no problems. Are they the same problems as women’s problems? Probably not but they do have things to fear. My mom’s friend’s son was shot randomly at a red light for looking at someone. All he did was glance. Dude walked up and said, “Tf you looking at?” and shot him. Another guy was shot in his car in his parking spot in the lot in front of his apartment. All he was doing was listening to music about to go to a friend’s house. Men still get jumped and robbed.",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nI don't know, but I have a close friend who did just that. I assure you she's quite trans.\n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nNo it's not.\nThere are studies that show some population level differences between the brains of dysphoric binary trans women and cis folk, but none of them show a complete alignment with cis brains of either gender, none of them explain where gender identity or dysphoria arises from and how these differences might relate and none of them claim that the differences they do uncover are representative of every trans person. \n\nI believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria that they pushed down to mend well into society.\n\nNope. My friend for example doesn't recognise her pre transition life as bad or dysphoric, even now. She's post transition and has been for many years, and this just isn't her experience.",
">\n\nSee so many dudes walking around my suburb in dresses now who clearly aren’t trans and totally just doing it to get attention",
">\n\nBy definition, gender dysphoria is quite literally a prerequisite to transgenderism, but that doesn’t make their preferred identification or gender any less real. Just because gender dysphoria is by-the-books a disease, it doesn’t mean it needs to continue being classified as one. The overall opinion on gender dysphoria is a lot more nuanced than it used be. If all of your opinions are shaped by books written on historical norms, then sure, you are correct in a world that never adapts.\nThe issue is you maintain gender dysphoria is a bad thing just because that’s what you’ve always been told. The “condition” is likely just a sign that transitioning could be a mentally healthy decision for the dysphoric person. If you are willing to admit that transitioning can provide relief to a person, then you are also admitting that there can be truth to the gender dysphoria a person feels. The current definition and your definition of gender dysphoria is based on the principle that the dysphoric person is experiencing incorrect feelings. It would be pedantic of you to suggest your definition of gender dysphoria is not severely outdated. Therefore, there really is no productive outcome from your argument.\nI can say you’re right, but I can also say your outdated perception of gender dysphoria is the reason you feel this take needs to be argued in the first place.",
">\n\nThere's a big difference between philosophy and science, I think you need to start listening to science. It sounds to me like you're constantly trying to preach philosophy to circles of experts with lived experience and not willing to hear them."
] |
>
Also its really none of your business why people transition and I think its stupid that the process is so difficult, I get it, its life altering to an extreme degree, but so is plastic surgery, but women who get bigger boobs dont have to explain why they want them or prove that they'd be unhappy without them, but you don't want boobs? Here fill out a years worth of paperwork proving you're unhappy with your body and you have to have your therapist confirm it, and some family or friends. It's absolutely ridiculous. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a process, but the one we have is out of date.
Its all rooted in the stupid belief that "females need to want to be feminine and males need to want to be masculine"
Both masculinity and femininity are CONCEPTS
No one needs to feel like they need to feed the corrupted image of what society thinks a woman/man "should" look like
If someone wants to transition to be happier in their own skin, then so be it.
Its a doctor's job to inform their patients of the risks
And its not your place or anyone else's to tell someone they can't be trans because they don't hate themselves | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it.",
">\n\nCould you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.\nI associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.\nOnce someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel?",
">\n\n\nETA: everyone in the comments jumped on the argument of a post-everything trans person no longer feeling dysphoric. I will explain my stance on that here: if someone is ill and they receive continuous medication to block out/alleviate side effects of that illness, are they no longer ill? The answer is no.\n\nSo, this comparison doesn't really work.\nTaking continued medication is not the same as a gender transition. Continued medication to treat an illness has to be done on an ongoing basis, but a gender transition to overcome gender dysphoria is more like a one-and-done procedure.\nYour view would be more correct if it said \"to undergo a gender transition\", a one-time action, instead of \"be transgender\", a continuous state of being.",
">\n\nI guess, technically speaking, that is somewhat of my stance. I think transitioning should be allowed only in the case of gender dysphoria, and those who experience gender dysphoria are transgender. I don't quite understand how someone could be transgender and not experience dysphoria when that is what being transgender is — a biological issue. The continued question I keep asking is \"why would someone transition if they never experienced dysphoria to begin with?\" so I suppose that does correlate with gender dysphoria and transitioning.\nAlso, no, it is not a one-time solution type of thing. You need to take hormones monthly/weekly or your body will switch back to its biological sex. It requires continued treatment. If you stop taking hormones, a lot of the progress you made will be reverted. That is why I compared it to an illness.\nThe only exception is when you get that sex making organ removed (i.e ovaries for trans men), but even then, the ongoing use of medicine is required even more because otherwise your body won't have the hormones you need to continue on.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are transgender under your definition of gender dysphoria since their assigned sex at birth is incongruent with their gender identity. Some non-binary folks , however, myself included, hold out the hope of living in a society without gender identities. In that society, the concept of gender dysphoria would be incoherent; instead, everyone would have varying feelings about their bodies (The difference is between, on the one hand, being able to take for granted that some people have penises and feel okay about that, whereas other people have penises and don't, and, on the other, thinking that people who have penises and are not okay with them want to become women). Those with negative body feelings might undergo body modification surgery—but it wouldn't be gender re-assignment or affirming surgery in a society without gender. \nMy argument is, first, that if it's possible to conceive of such a society, then it's possible to conceive of a transgender person who does not experience gender dysphoria; instead, they merely experience body dysphoria. Second, I also think that contemporary genderfuckery—like drag that isn't trying to be \"fish\" or \"real\" (that is, to pass), public kink, and, heck, lolita and other androgynous-to-high-femme fashion subcultures—can be thought of as a proof-of-concept for such a society. I mean, just like how I can order a unisex Lolita dress in my size right now, maybe one day I can go into a clothing store where clothing is organized by type rather than by men's and women's.",
">\n\nYes, I believe nonbinary folk are transgender. \nI'm sorry, but I don't think I understand your dreams of a society without gender identities. It sounds like a recipe for disaster if there is lack of education on biology. Plus, the lack of teachings about transgenderism is what causes transphobia in the first place. Same with racism, misogyny, etc.",
">\n\nSo it seems that you're not fully convinced that gender is a social construct, which is not to say that it's not very consequential for how people live their lives. (This might be why you're getting pushback in queer circles, by the way; and I mean \"queer\" not, like, mainstream gay such as Pete Buttigieg, etc.)\nOne way of grasping that gender is wholly social is to think about animals. There are people who refer to all cats as female and all dogs as male, that is, with respective \"she\" and \"he\" pronouns, gendered descriptions (\"handsome,\" \"pretty\") etc. Any dog regardless of what genitalia it actually has can be referred to as if it were a \"boy\" dog; this would suggest that, unlike with people, there is no need to interpret physical appearance as if it indicated the kind of genitals. That dogs can be \"boys\" even after we flip them over and find (gasp) a vagina suggests that, first, genitalia do not necessarily indicate gender but only do so under contingent social conditions (e.g., genitalia on people), and, second, that, gender is not tied to biology but, rather, to what we understand biology to mean.",
">\n\nSo you're defining gender dysphoria in a post hoc way, if someone transitions then they have gender dysphoria, whether they say they're perfectly comfortable as they are or not.\nSo... what would change your mind? Because the way you're defining it makes this a non-falsifiable claim, you can always claim someone has dysphoria regardless of their testimony to the contrary.\nOr, how do you know someone has gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThere’s zero point in gatekeeping being transgender. By saying “You NEED gender dysphoria to be trans” is you saying “IF YOU KNOW THAT YOURE TRANS AND DONT HAVE GENDER DYSPHORIA YOURE NOT TRANS😡😡😡” This is also like saying if you haven’t been in a same sex relationship before then you can’t be gay.",
">\n\nForgive me if I missed something in your post to clarify, or this has already been said to death. But it seems you're classifying transgender as someone who wants an actual sex change. If that's what you're talking about, I would agree. Gender dysphoria is the only legitimate reason for doing that. But many trans people DON'T want surgery or hormones, they simply represent and identify as the gender they feel that are, and have no problem with their bodies being what they are.",
">\n\nDysphoria isn’t always a criteria imo you’ll hear enough trans folk who didn’t necessarily feel poorly about their body before transitioning/starting to transition if you spend enough time \nInstead we should be looking at euphoria, the feeling one gets when they feel the most ‘themselves’, which is a way greater tool imo \nBeing ‘meh’ or otherwise uncaring about male pronouns but feeling ‘ecstatic’ when someone uses female pronouns for you, whether they’re doing it accidentally or on purpose, could be a greater clue than a low level dissatisfaction or ambivalence about one’s current body or presentation, for example",
">\n\nThis past week there was a beautiful article about a man who chose to dress as a traditional female but was happily married to the same woman, for many years. If I can find the link I will post it but it was absolutely beautiful and if you read that article and do not change your mind I would be very surprised.",
">\n\n“A ‘real man’ in a dress” is an article in the Washington Post December 21. If you read this and it doesn’t change your mind I will be shocked.",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nFor fun. To rebel. Because you like how it looks. Because you want to experience something new. Because you can.\nMaybe I want to transform myself into a space dolphin so I can sail the liquid methane seas of Saturn's moon, Titan. Am I dysphoric? No, but if the technology is there, and society accepts me, that sounds like a lovely way of being.\nTranshumanism (of which transgenderism is sometimes considered a small part) is about accepting technological and social change and improving the human condition. Why not become something you aren't?",
">\n\nI don't not agree. The desire to be anything other than the gender you were born with doesn't always need dysphoria, all you need is the desire to experience and explore sexuality.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is not a criteria to be transgender. If you read the DSM you’ll see that being transgender is one explanation for gender dysphoria. The DSM defines interpersonal dysfunction. If a person is able to overcome struggles on their own, they will never receive a diagnosis. Therefore, the diagnosis of gender dysphoria means that a person is struggling with their gender identity. The diagnosis doesn’t mean anything beyond that.",
">\n\nDoes a trans person who socially and/or physically transitioned and is happy with their gender presentation (and therefore not experiencing dysphoria) stop being trans? \nAll you need to be trans is to have a gender identity that doesn't match the one assigned to you at birth. Current or previous suffering is not a determining factor.",
">\n\nYour subject line is false as stated as literally every diagnostic standard in the field attests. \nThis I a factual question, not an opinion.",
">\n\nAlmost every transgender/non-binary person I know has attributed it to dysphoria itself, or dysphoria brought on by trauma, so I can’t exactly disagree on that, but I disagree that men can walk around with no problems. Are they the same problems as women’s problems? Probably not but they do have things to fear. My mom’s friend’s son was shot randomly at a red light for looking at someone. All he did was glance. Dude walked up and said, “Tf you looking at?” and shot him. Another guy was shot in his car in his parking spot in the lot in front of his apartment. All he was doing was listening to music about to go to a friend’s house. Men still get jumped and robbed.",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nI don't know, but I have a close friend who did just that. I assure you she's quite trans.\n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nNo it's not.\nThere are studies that show some population level differences between the brains of dysphoric binary trans women and cis folk, but none of them show a complete alignment with cis brains of either gender, none of them explain where gender identity or dysphoria arises from and how these differences might relate and none of them claim that the differences they do uncover are representative of every trans person. \n\nI believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria that they pushed down to mend well into society.\n\nNope. My friend for example doesn't recognise her pre transition life as bad or dysphoric, even now. She's post transition and has been for many years, and this just isn't her experience.",
">\n\nSee so many dudes walking around my suburb in dresses now who clearly aren’t trans and totally just doing it to get attention",
">\n\nBy definition, gender dysphoria is quite literally a prerequisite to transgenderism, but that doesn’t make their preferred identification or gender any less real. Just because gender dysphoria is by-the-books a disease, it doesn’t mean it needs to continue being classified as one. The overall opinion on gender dysphoria is a lot more nuanced than it used be. If all of your opinions are shaped by books written on historical norms, then sure, you are correct in a world that never adapts.\nThe issue is you maintain gender dysphoria is a bad thing just because that’s what you’ve always been told. The “condition” is likely just a sign that transitioning could be a mentally healthy decision for the dysphoric person. If you are willing to admit that transitioning can provide relief to a person, then you are also admitting that there can be truth to the gender dysphoria a person feels. The current definition and your definition of gender dysphoria is based on the principle that the dysphoric person is experiencing incorrect feelings. It would be pedantic of you to suggest your definition of gender dysphoria is not severely outdated. Therefore, there really is no productive outcome from your argument.\nI can say you’re right, but I can also say your outdated perception of gender dysphoria is the reason you feel this take needs to be argued in the first place.",
">\n\nThere's a big difference between philosophy and science, I think you need to start listening to science. It sounds to me like you're constantly trying to preach philosophy to circles of experts with lived experience and not willing to hear them.",
">\n\nThere's gender euphoria without gender dysphoria. Maybe you don't mind being addressed as your agab, but feel more happy and comfortable being trans. That's still valid. Also gender is just a fricking consept, it doesnt matter what your push factor is to being trans as long as you're not intentionally hurting someone and are being genuine to who you are. I think its awesome that there are trans people who don't experience dysphoria, good for them."
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I think first of all dysphoria can be a spectrum from low-to-high. And people can transition differently based on that.
The problem with this gatekeeping is in the practice. Currently, as-is, many trans folks are denied gender-affirming heath-care due to a lot of bureaucracy, lack of clinics, and on religious views of the doctors doing analysis as well, where doctors can refuse to recommend treatment as a matter of personal discretion with no oversight and farther action possible.
Now, on top that, you are adding an additional layer of determining dysphoria, and this can further add to the bureaucracy.
Here is Philosophy Tube's video about UK's NHS having several years of backlog queue at gender-clinics, often leading to people using unsafe products from the black-market or suffering from suicidal ideations as a result of this wait. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it.",
">\n\nCould you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.\nI associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.\nOnce someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel?",
">\n\n\nETA: everyone in the comments jumped on the argument of a post-everything trans person no longer feeling dysphoric. I will explain my stance on that here: if someone is ill and they receive continuous medication to block out/alleviate side effects of that illness, are they no longer ill? The answer is no.\n\nSo, this comparison doesn't really work.\nTaking continued medication is not the same as a gender transition. Continued medication to treat an illness has to be done on an ongoing basis, but a gender transition to overcome gender dysphoria is more like a one-and-done procedure.\nYour view would be more correct if it said \"to undergo a gender transition\", a one-time action, instead of \"be transgender\", a continuous state of being.",
">\n\nI guess, technically speaking, that is somewhat of my stance. I think transitioning should be allowed only in the case of gender dysphoria, and those who experience gender dysphoria are transgender. I don't quite understand how someone could be transgender and not experience dysphoria when that is what being transgender is — a biological issue. The continued question I keep asking is \"why would someone transition if they never experienced dysphoria to begin with?\" so I suppose that does correlate with gender dysphoria and transitioning.\nAlso, no, it is not a one-time solution type of thing. You need to take hormones monthly/weekly or your body will switch back to its biological sex. It requires continued treatment. If you stop taking hormones, a lot of the progress you made will be reverted. That is why I compared it to an illness.\nThe only exception is when you get that sex making organ removed (i.e ovaries for trans men), but even then, the ongoing use of medicine is required even more because otherwise your body won't have the hormones you need to continue on.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are transgender under your definition of gender dysphoria since their assigned sex at birth is incongruent with their gender identity. Some non-binary folks , however, myself included, hold out the hope of living in a society without gender identities. In that society, the concept of gender dysphoria would be incoherent; instead, everyone would have varying feelings about their bodies (The difference is between, on the one hand, being able to take for granted that some people have penises and feel okay about that, whereas other people have penises and don't, and, on the other, thinking that people who have penises and are not okay with them want to become women). Those with negative body feelings might undergo body modification surgery—but it wouldn't be gender re-assignment or affirming surgery in a society without gender. \nMy argument is, first, that if it's possible to conceive of such a society, then it's possible to conceive of a transgender person who does not experience gender dysphoria; instead, they merely experience body dysphoria. Second, I also think that contemporary genderfuckery—like drag that isn't trying to be \"fish\" or \"real\" (that is, to pass), public kink, and, heck, lolita and other androgynous-to-high-femme fashion subcultures—can be thought of as a proof-of-concept for such a society. I mean, just like how I can order a unisex Lolita dress in my size right now, maybe one day I can go into a clothing store where clothing is organized by type rather than by men's and women's.",
">\n\nYes, I believe nonbinary folk are transgender. \nI'm sorry, but I don't think I understand your dreams of a society without gender identities. It sounds like a recipe for disaster if there is lack of education on biology. Plus, the lack of teachings about transgenderism is what causes transphobia in the first place. Same with racism, misogyny, etc.",
">\n\nSo it seems that you're not fully convinced that gender is a social construct, which is not to say that it's not very consequential for how people live their lives. (This might be why you're getting pushback in queer circles, by the way; and I mean \"queer\" not, like, mainstream gay such as Pete Buttigieg, etc.)\nOne way of grasping that gender is wholly social is to think about animals. There are people who refer to all cats as female and all dogs as male, that is, with respective \"she\" and \"he\" pronouns, gendered descriptions (\"handsome,\" \"pretty\") etc. Any dog regardless of what genitalia it actually has can be referred to as if it were a \"boy\" dog; this would suggest that, unlike with people, there is no need to interpret physical appearance as if it indicated the kind of genitals. That dogs can be \"boys\" even after we flip them over and find (gasp) a vagina suggests that, first, genitalia do not necessarily indicate gender but only do so under contingent social conditions (e.g., genitalia on people), and, second, that, gender is not tied to biology but, rather, to what we understand biology to mean.",
">\n\nSo you're defining gender dysphoria in a post hoc way, if someone transitions then they have gender dysphoria, whether they say they're perfectly comfortable as they are or not.\nSo... what would change your mind? Because the way you're defining it makes this a non-falsifiable claim, you can always claim someone has dysphoria regardless of their testimony to the contrary.\nOr, how do you know someone has gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThere’s zero point in gatekeeping being transgender. By saying “You NEED gender dysphoria to be trans” is you saying “IF YOU KNOW THAT YOURE TRANS AND DONT HAVE GENDER DYSPHORIA YOURE NOT TRANS😡😡😡” This is also like saying if you haven’t been in a same sex relationship before then you can’t be gay.",
">\n\nForgive me if I missed something in your post to clarify, or this has already been said to death. But it seems you're classifying transgender as someone who wants an actual sex change. If that's what you're talking about, I would agree. Gender dysphoria is the only legitimate reason for doing that. But many trans people DON'T want surgery or hormones, they simply represent and identify as the gender they feel that are, and have no problem with their bodies being what they are.",
">\n\nDysphoria isn’t always a criteria imo you’ll hear enough trans folk who didn’t necessarily feel poorly about their body before transitioning/starting to transition if you spend enough time \nInstead we should be looking at euphoria, the feeling one gets when they feel the most ‘themselves’, which is a way greater tool imo \nBeing ‘meh’ or otherwise uncaring about male pronouns but feeling ‘ecstatic’ when someone uses female pronouns for you, whether they’re doing it accidentally or on purpose, could be a greater clue than a low level dissatisfaction or ambivalence about one’s current body or presentation, for example",
">\n\nThis past week there was a beautiful article about a man who chose to dress as a traditional female but was happily married to the same woman, for many years. If I can find the link I will post it but it was absolutely beautiful and if you read that article and do not change your mind I would be very surprised.",
">\n\n“A ‘real man’ in a dress” is an article in the Washington Post December 21. If you read this and it doesn’t change your mind I will be shocked.",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nFor fun. To rebel. Because you like how it looks. Because you want to experience something new. Because you can.\nMaybe I want to transform myself into a space dolphin so I can sail the liquid methane seas of Saturn's moon, Titan. Am I dysphoric? No, but if the technology is there, and society accepts me, that sounds like a lovely way of being.\nTranshumanism (of which transgenderism is sometimes considered a small part) is about accepting technological and social change and improving the human condition. Why not become something you aren't?",
">\n\nI don't not agree. The desire to be anything other than the gender you were born with doesn't always need dysphoria, all you need is the desire to experience and explore sexuality.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is not a criteria to be transgender. If you read the DSM you’ll see that being transgender is one explanation for gender dysphoria. The DSM defines interpersonal dysfunction. If a person is able to overcome struggles on their own, they will never receive a diagnosis. Therefore, the diagnosis of gender dysphoria means that a person is struggling with their gender identity. The diagnosis doesn’t mean anything beyond that.",
">\n\nDoes a trans person who socially and/or physically transitioned and is happy with their gender presentation (and therefore not experiencing dysphoria) stop being trans? \nAll you need to be trans is to have a gender identity that doesn't match the one assigned to you at birth. Current or previous suffering is not a determining factor.",
">\n\nYour subject line is false as stated as literally every diagnostic standard in the field attests. \nThis I a factual question, not an opinion.",
">\n\nAlmost every transgender/non-binary person I know has attributed it to dysphoria itself, or dysphoria brought on by trauma, so I can’t exactly disagree on that, but I disagree that men can walk around with no problems. Are they the same problems as women’s problems? Probably not but they do have things to fear. My mom’s friend’s son was shot randomly at a red light for looking at someone. All he did was glance. Dude walked up and said, “Tf you looking at?” and shot him. Another guy was shot in his car in his parking spot in the lot in front of his apartment. All he was doing was listening to music about to go to a friend’s house. Men still get jumped and robbed.",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nI don't know, but I have a close friend who did just that. I assure you she's quite trans.\n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nNo it's not.\nThere are studies that show some population level differences between the brains of dysphoric binary trans women and cis folk, but none of them show a complete alignment with cis brains of either gender, none of them explain where gender identity or dysphoria arises from and how these differences might relate and none of them claim that the differences they do uncover are representative of every trans person. \n\nI believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria that they pushed down to mend well into society.\n\nNope. My friend for example doesn't recognise her pre transition life as bad or dysphoric, even now. She's post transition and has been for many years, and this just isn't her experience.",
">\n\nSee so many dudes walking around my suburb in dresses now who clearly aren’t trans and totally just doing it to get attention",
">\n\nBy definition, gender dysphoria is quite literally a prerequisite to transgenderism, but that doesn’t make their preferred identification or gender any less real. Just because gender dysphoria is by-the-books a disease, it doesn’t mean it needs to continue being classified as one. The overall opinion on gender dysphoria is a lot more nuanced than it used be. If all of your opinions are shaped by books written on historical norms, then sure, you are correct in a world that never adapts.\nThe issue is you maintain gender dysphoria is a bad thing just because that’s what you’ve always been told. The “condition” is likely just a sign that transitioning could be a mentally healthy decision for the dysphoric person. If you are willing to admit that transitioning can provide relief to a person, then you are also admitting that there can be truth to the gender dysphoria a person feels. The current definition and your definition of gender dysphoria is based on the principle that the dysphoric person is experiencing incorrect feelings. It would be pedantic of you to suggest your definition of gender dysphoria is not severely outdated. Therefore, there really is no productive outcome from your argument.\nI can say you’re right, but I can also say your outdated perception of gender dysphoria is the reason you feel this take needs to be argued in the first place.",
">\n\nThere's a big difference between philosophy and science, I think you need to start listening to science. It sounds to me like you're constantly trying to preach philosophy to circles of experts with lived experience and not willing to hear them.",
">\n\nThere's gender euphoria without gender dysphoria. Maybe you don't mind being addressed as your agab, but feel more happy and comfortable being trans. That's still valid. Also gender is just a fricking consept, it doesnt matter what your push factor is to being trans as long as you're not intentionally hurting someone and are being genuine to who you are. I think its awesome that there are trans people who don't experience dysphoria, good for them.",
">\n\nAlso its really none of your business why people transition and I think its stupid that the process is so difficult, I get it, its life altering to an extreme degree, but so is plastic surgery, but women who get bigger boobs dont have to explain why they want them or prove that they'd be unhappy without them, but you don't want boobs? Here fill out a years worth of paperwork proving you're unhappy with your body and you have to have your therapist confirm it, and some family or friends. It's absolutely ridiculous. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a process, but the one we have is out of date.\nIts all rooted in the stupid belief that \"females need to want to be feminine and males need to want to be masculine\"\nBoth masculinity and femininity are CONCEPTS \nNo one needs to feel like they need to feed the corrupted image of what society thinks a woman/man \"should\" look like\nIf someone wants to transition to be happier in their own skin, then so be it.\nIts a doctor's job to inform their patients of the risks \nAnd its not your place or anyone else's to tell someone they can't be trans because they don't hate themselves"
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Why does OP care? They aren’t Trans so why do they feel entitled to determine who is and isn’t, or more importantly, CAN and CAN’T be trans? Just because somebody has had a number of discussions about a topic, that doesn’t mean they are correct or even arguing in good faith | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it.",
">\n\nCould you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.\nI associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.\nOnce someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel?",
">\n\n\nETA: everyone in the comments jumped on the argument of a post-everything trans person no longer feeling dysphoric. I will explain my stance on that here: if someone is ill and they receive continuous medication to block out/alleviate side effects of that illness, are they no longer ill? The answer is no.\n\nSo, this comparison doesn't really work.\nTaking continued medication is not the same as a gender transition. Continued medication to treat an illness has to be done on an ongoing basis, but a gender transition to overcome gender dysphoria is more like a one-and-done procedure.\nYour view would be more correct if it said \"to undergo a gender transition\", a one-time action, instead of \"be transgender\", a continuous state of being.",
">\n\nI guess, technically speaking, that is somewhat of my stance. I think transitioning should be allowed only in the case of gender dysphoria, and those who experience gender dysphoria are transgender. I don't quite understand how someone could be transgender and not experience dysphoria when that is what being transgender is — a biological issue. The continued question I keep asking is \"why would someone transition if they never experienced dysphoria to begin with?\" so I suppose that does correlate with gender dysphoria and transitioning.\nAlso, no, it is not a one-time solution type of thing. You need to take hormones monthly/weekly or your body will switch back to its biological sex. It requires continued treatment. If you stop taking hormones, a lot of the progress you made will be reverted. That is why I compared it to an illness.\nThe only exception is when you get that sex making organ removed (i.e ovaries for trans men), but even then, the ongoing use of medicine is required even more because otherwise your body won't have the hormones you need to continue on.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are transgender under your definition of gender dysphoria since their assigned sex at birth is incongruent with their gender identity. Some non-binary folks , however, myself included, hold out the hope of living in a society without gender identities. In that society, the concept of gender dysphoria would be incoherent; instead, everyone would have varying feelings about their bodies (The difference is between, on the one hand, being able to take for granted that some people have penises and feel okay about that, whereas other people have penises and don't, and, on the other, thinking that people who have penises and are not okay with them want to become women). Those with negative body feelings might undergo body modification surgery—but it wouldn't be gender re-assignment or affirming surgery in a society without gender. \nMy argument is, first, that if it's possible to conceive of such a society, then it's possible to conceive of a transgender person who does not experience gender dysphoria; instead, they merely experience body dysphoria. Second, I also think that contemporary genderfuckery—like drag that isn't trying to be \"fish\" or \"real\" (that is, to pass), public kink, and, heck, lolita and other androgynous-to-high-femme fashion subcultures—can be thought of as a proof-of-concept for such a society. I mean, just like how I can order a unisex Lolita dress in my size right now, maybe one day I can go into a clothing store where clothing is organized by type rather than by men's and women's.",
">\n\nYes, I believe nonbinary folk are transgender. \nI'm sorry, but I don't think I understand your dreams of a society without gender identities. It sounds like a recipe for disaster if there is lack of education on biology. Plus, the lack of teachings about transgenderism is what causes transphobia in the first place. Same with racism, misogyny, etc.",
">\n\nSo it seems that you're not fully convinced that gender is a social construct, which is not to say that it's not very consequential for how people live their lives. (This might be why you're getting pushback in queer circles, by the way; and I mean \"queer\" not, like, mainstream gay such as Pete Buttigieg, etc.)\nOne way of grasping that gender is wholly social is to think about animals. There are people who refer to all cats as female and all dogs as male, that is, with respective \"she\" and \"he\" pronouns, gendered descriptions (\"handsome,\" \"pretty\") etc. Any dog regardless of what genitalia it actually has can be referred to as if it were a \"boy\" dog; this would suggest that, unlike with people, there is no need to interpret physical appearance as if it indicated the kind of genitals. That dogs can be \"boys\" even after we flip them over and find (gasp) a vagina suggests that, first, genitalia do not necessarily indicate gender but only do so under contingent social conditions (e.g., genitalia on people), and, second, that, gender is not tied to biology but, rather, to what we understand biology to mean.",
">\n\nSo you're defining gender dysphoria in a post hoc way, if someone transitions then they have gender dysphoria, whether they say they're perfectly comfortable as they are or not.\nSo... what would change your mind? Because the way you're defining it makes this a non-falsifiable claim, you can always claim someone has dysphoria regardless of their testimony to the contrary.\nOr, how do you know someone has gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThere’s zero point in gatekeeping being transgender. By saying “You NEED gender dysphoria to be trans” is you saying “IF YOU KNOW THAT YOURE TRANS AND DONT HAVE GENDER DYSPHORIA YOURE NOT TRANS😡😡😡” This is also like saying if you haven’t been in a same sex relationship before then you can’t be gay.",
">\n\nForgive me if I missed something in your post to clarify, or this has already been said to death. But it seems you're classifying transgender as someone who wants an actual sex change. If that's what you're talking about, I would agree. Gender dysphoria is the only legitimate reason for doing that. But many trans people DON'T want surgery or hormones, they simply represent and identify as the gender they feel that are, and have no problem with their bodies being what they are.",
">\n\nDysphoria isn’t always a criteria imo you’ll hear enough trans folk who didn’t necessarily feel poorly about their body before transitioning/starting to transition if you spend enough time \nInstead we should be looking at euphoria, the feeling one gets when they feel the most ‘themselves’, which is a way greater tool imo \nBeing ‘meh’ or otherwise uncaring about male pronouns but feeling ‘ecstatic’ when someone uses female pronouns for you, whether they’re doing it accidentally or on purpose, could be a greater clue than a low level dissatisfaction or ambivalence about one’s current body or presentation, for example",
">\n\nThis past week there was a beautiful article about a man who chose to dress as a traditional female but was happily married to the same woman, for many years. If I can find the link I will post it but it was absolutely beautiful and if you read that article and do not change your mind I would be very surprised.",
">\n\n“A ‘real man’ in a dress” is an article in the Washington Post December 21. If you read this and it doesn’t change your mind I will be shocked.",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nFor fun. To rebel. Because you like how it looks. Because you want to experience something new. Because you can.\nMaybe I want to transform myself into a space dolphin so I can sail the liquid methane seas of Saturn's moon, Titan. Am I dysphoric? No, but if the technology is there, and society accepts me, that sounds like a lovely way of being.\nTranshumanism (of which transgenderism is sometimes considered a small part) is about accepting technological and social change and improving the human condition. Why not become something you aren't?",
">\n\nI don't not agree. The desire to be anything other than the gender you were born with doesn't always need dysphoria, all you need is the desire to experience and explore sexuality.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is not a criteria to be transgender. If you read the DSM you’ll see that being transgender is one explanation for gender dysphoria. The DSM defines interpersonal dysfunction. If a person is able to overcome struggles on their own, they will never receive a diagnosis. Therefore, the diagnosis of gender dysphoria means that a person is struggling with their gender identity. The diagnosis doesn’t mean anything beyond that.",
">\n\nDoes a trans person who socially and/or physically transitioned and is happy with their gender presentation (and therefore not experiencing dysphoria) stop being trans? \nAll you need to be trans is to have a gender identity that doesn't match the one assigned to you at birth. Current or previous suffering is not a determining factor.",
">\n\nYour subject line is false as stated as literally every diagnostic standard in the field attests. \nThis I a factual question, not an opinion.",
">\n\nAlmost every transgender/non-binary person I know has attributed it to dysphoria itself, or dysphoria brought on by trauma, so I can’t exactly disagree on that, but I disagree that men can walk around with no problems. Are they the same problems as women’s problems? Probably not but they do have things to fear. My mom’s friend’s son was shot randomly at a red light for looking at someone. All he did was glance. Dude walked up and said, “Tf you looking at?” and shot him. Another guy was shot in his car in his parking spot in the lot in front of his apartment. All he was doing was listening to music about to go to a friend’s house. Men still get jumped and robbed.",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nI don't know, but I have a close friend who did just that. I assure you she's quite trans.\n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nNo it's not.\nThere are studies that show some population level differences between the brains of dysphoric binary trans women and cis folk, but none of them show a complete alignment with cis brains of either gender, none of them explain where gender identity or dysphoria arises from and how these differences might relate and none of them claim that the differences they do uncover are representative of every trans person. \n\nI believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria that they pushed down to mend well into society.\n\nNope. My friend for example doesn't recognise her pre transition life as bad or dysphoric, even now. She's post transition and has been for many years, and this just isn't her experience.",
">\n\nSee so many dudes walking around my suburb in dresses now who clearly aren’t trans and totally just doing it to get attention",
">\n\nBy definition, gender dysphoria is quite literally a prerequisite to transgenderism, but that doesn’t make their preferred identification or gender any less real. Just because gender dysphoria is by-the-books a disease, it doesn’t mean it needs to continue being classified as one. The overall opinion on gender dysphoria is a lot more nuanced than it used be. If all of your opinions are shaped by books written on historical norms, then sure, you are correct in a world that never adapts.\nThe issue is you maintain gender dysphoria is a bad thing just because that’s what you’ve always been told. The “condition” is likely just a sign that transitioning could be a mentally healthy decision for the dysphoric person. If you are willing to admit that transitioning can provide relief to a person, then you are also admitting that there can be truth to the gender dysphoria a person feels. The current definition and your definition of gender dysphoria is based on the principle that the dysphoric person is experiencing incorrect feelings. It would be pedantic of you to suggest your definition of gender dysphoria is not severely outdated. Therefore, there really is no productive outcome from your argument.\nI can say you’re right, but I can also say your outdated perception of gender dysphoria is the reason you feel this take needs to be argued in the first place.",
">\n\nThere's a big difference between philosophy and science, I think you need to start listening to science. It sounds to me like you're constantly trying to preach philosophy to circles of experts with lived experience and not willing to hear them.",
">\n\nThere's gender euphoria without gender dysphoria. Maybe you don't mind being addressed as your agab, but feel more happy and comfortable being trans. That's still valid. Also gender is just a fricking consept, it doesnt matter what your push factor is to being trans as long as you're not intentionally hurting someone and are being genuine to who you are. I think its awesome that there are trans people who don't experience dysphoria, good for them.",
">\n\nAlso its really none of your business why people transition and I think its stupid that the process is so difficult, I get it, its life altering to an extreme degree, but so is plastic surgery, but women who get bigger boobs dont have to explain why they want them or prove that they'd be unhappy without them, but you don't want boobs? Here fill out a years worth of paperwork proving you're unhappy with your body and you have to have your therapist confirm it, and some family or friends. It's absolutely ridiculous. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a process, but the one we have is out of date.\nIts all rooted in the stupid belief that \"females need to want to be feminine and males need to want to be masculine\"\nBoth masculinity and femininity are CONCEPTS \nNo one needs to feel like they need to feed the corrupted image of what society thinks a woman/man \"should\" look like\nIf someone wants to transition to be happier in their own skin, then so be it.\nIts a doctor's job to inform their patients of the risks \nAnd its not your place or anyone else's to tell someone they can't be trans because they don't hate themselves",
">\n\nI think first of all dysphoria can be a spectrum from low-to-high. And people can transition differently based on that.\nThe problem with this gatekeeping is in the practice. Currently, as-is, many trans folks are denied gender-affirming heath-care due to a lot of bureaucracy, lack of clinics, and on religious views of the doctors doing analysis as well, where doctors can refuse to recommend treatment as a matter of personal discretion with no oversight and farther action possible.\nNow, on top that, you are adding an additional layer of determining dysphoria, and this can further add to the bureaucracy.\nHere is Philosophy Tube's video about UK's NHS having several years of backlog queue at gender-clinics, often leading to people using unsafe products from the black-market or suffering from suicidal ideations as a result of this wait."
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Good grief. Who tf cares. Whether they have gender dysphoria or not is as fluid as gender, so maybe they have dysphoria somes days and not others. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it.",
">\n\nCould you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.\nI associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.\nOnce someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel?",
">\n\n\nETA: everyone in the comments jumped on the argument of a post-everything trans person no longer feeling dysphoric. I will explain my stance on that here: if someone is ill and they receive continuous medication to block out/alleviate side effects of that illness, are they no longer ill? The answer is no.\n\nSo, this comparison doesn't really work.\nTaking continued medication is not the same as a gender transition. Continued medication to treat an illness has to be done on an ongoing basis, but a gender transition to overcome gender dysphoria is more like a one-and-done procedure.\nYour view would be more correct if it said \"to undergo a gender transition\", a one-time action, instead of \"be transgender\", a continuous state of being.",
">\n\nI guess, technically speaking, that is somewhat of my stance. I think transitioning should be allowed only in the case of gender dysphoria, and those who experience gender dysphoria are transgender. I don't quite understand how someone could be transgender and not experience dysphoria when that is what being transgender is — a biological issue. The continued question I keep asking is \"why would someone transition if they never experienced dysphoria to begin with?\" so I suppose that does correlate with gender dysphoria and transitioning.\nAlso, no, it is not a one-time solution type of thing. You need to take hormones monthly/weekly or your body will switch back to its biological sex. It requires continued treatment. If you stop taking hormones, a lot of the progress you made will be reverted. That is why I compared it to an illness.\nThe only exception is when you get that sex making organ removed (i.e ovaries for trans men), but even then, the ongoing use of medicine is required even more because otherwise your body won't have the hormones you need to continue on.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are transgender under your definition of gender dysphoria since their assigned sex at birth is incongruent with their gender identity. Some non-binary folks , however, myself included, hold out the hope of living in a society without gender identities. In that society, the concept of gender dysphoria would be incoherent; instead, everyone would have varying feelings about their bodies (The difference is between, on the one hand, being able to take for granted that some people have penises and feel okay about that, whereas other people have penises and don't, and, on the other, thinking that people who have penises and are not okay with them want to become women). Those with negative body feelings might undergo body modification surgery—but it wouldn't be gender re-assignment or affirming surgery in a society without gender. \nMy argument is, first, that if it's possible to conceive of such a society, then it's possible to conceive of a transgender person who does not experience gender dysphoria; instead, they merely experience body dysphoria. Second, I also think that contemporary genderfuckery—like drag that isn't trying to be \"fish\" or \"real\" (that is, to pass), public kink, and, heck, lolita and other androgynous-to-high-femme fashion subcultures—can be thought of as a proof-of-concept for such a society. I mean, just like how I can order a unisex Lolita dress in my size right now, maybe one day I can go into a clothing store where clothing is organized by type rather than by men's and women's.",
">\n\nYes, I believe nonbinary folk are transgender. \nI'm sorry, but I don't think I understand your dreams of a society without gender identities. It sounds like a recipe for disaster if there is lack of education on biology. Plus, the lack of teachings about transgenderism is what causes transphobia in the first place. Same with racism, misogyny, etc.",
">\n\nSo it seems that you're not fully convinced that gender is a social construct, which is not to say that it's not very consequential for how people live their lives. (This might be why you're getting pushback in queer circles, by the way; and I mean \"queer\" not, like, mainstream gay such as Pete Buttigieg, etc.)\nOne way of grasping that gender is wholly social is to think about animals. There are people who refer to all cats as female and all dogs as male, that is, with respective \"she\" and \"he\" pronouns, gendered descriptions (\"handsome,\" \"pretty\") etc. Any dog regardless of what genitalia it actually has can be referred to as if it were a \"boy\" dog; this would suggest that, unlike with people, there is no need to interpret physical appearance as if it indicated the kind of genitals. That dogs can be \"boys\" even after we flip them over and find (gasp) a vagina suggests that, first, genitalia do not necessarily indicate gender but only do so under contingent social conditions (e.g., genitalia on people), and, second, that, gender is not tied to biology but, rather, to what we understand biology to mean.",
">\n\nSo you're defining gender dysphoria in a post hoc way, if someone transitions then they have gender dysphoria, whether they say they're perfectly comfortable as they are or not.\nSo... what would change your mind? Because the way you're defining it makes this a non-falsifiable claim, you can always claim someone has dysphoria regardless of their testimony to the contrary.\nOr, how do you know someone has gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThere’s zero point in gatekeeping being transgender. By saying “You NEED gender dysphoria to be trans” is you saying “IF YOU KNOW THAT YOURE TRANS AND DONT HAVE GENDER DYSPHORIA YOURE NOT TRANS😡😡😡” This is also like saying if you haven’t been in a same sex relationship before then you can’t be gay.",
">\n\nForgive me if I missed something in your post to clarify, or this has already been said to death. But it seems you're classifying transgender as someone who wants an actual sex change. If that's what you're talking about, I would agree. Gender dysphoria is the only legitimate reason for doing that. But many trans people DON'T want surgery or hormones, they simply represent and identify as the gender they feel that are, and have no problem with their bodies being what they are.",
">\n\nDysphoria isn’t always a criteria imo you’ll hear enough trans folk who didn’t necessarily feel poorly about their body before transitioning/starting to transition if you spend enough time \nInstead we should be looking at euphoria, the feeling one gets when they feel the most ‘themselves’, which is a way greater tool imo \nBeing ‘meh’ or otherwise uncaring about male pronouns but feeling ‘ecstatic’ when someone uses female pronouns for you, whether they’re doing it accidentally or on purpose, could be a greater clue than a low level dissatisfaction or ambivalence about one’s current body or presentation, for example",
">\n\nThis past week there was a beautiful article about a man who chose to dress as a traditional female but was happily married to the same woman, for many years. If I can find the link I will post it but it was absolutely beautiful and if you read that article and do not change your mind I would be very surprised.",
">\n\n“A ‘real man’ in a dress” is an article in the Washington Post December 21. If you read this and it doesn’t change your mind I will be shocked.",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nFor fun. To rebel. Because you like how it looks. Because you want to experience something new. Because you can.\nMaybe I want to transform myself into a space dolphin so I can sail the liquid methane seas of Saturn's moon, Titan. Am I dysphoric? No, but if the technology is there, and society accepts me, that sounds like a lovely way of being.\nTranshumanism (of which transgenderism is sometimes considered a small part) is about accepting technological and social change and improving the human condition. Why not become something you aren't?",
">\n\nI don't not agree. The desire to be anything other than the gender you were born with doesn't always need dysphoria, all you need is the desire to experience and explore sexuality.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is not a criteria to be transgender. If you read the DSM you’ll see that being transgender is one explanation for gender dysphoria. The DSM defines interpersonal dysfunction. If a person is able to overcome struggles on their own, they will never receive a diagnosis. Therefore, the diagnosis of gender dysphoria means that a person is struggling with their gender identity. The diagnosis doesn’t mean anything beyond that.",
">\n\nDoes a trans person who socially and/or physically transitioned and is happy with their gender presentation (and therefore not experiencing dysphoria) stop being trans? \nAll you need to be trans is to have a gender identity that doesn't match the one assigned to you at birth. Current or previous suffering is not a determining factor.",
">\n\nYour subject line is false as stated as literally every diagnostic standard in the field attests. \nThis I a factual question, not an opinion.",
">\n\nAlmost every transgender/non-binary person I know has attributed it to dysphoria itself, or dysphoria brought on by trauma, so I can’t exactly disagree on that, but I disagree that men can walk around with no problems. Are they the same problems as women’s problems? Probably not but they do have things to fear. My mom’s friend’s son was shot randomly at a red light for looking at someone. All he did was glance. Dude walked up and said, “Tf you looking at?” and shot him. Another guy was shot in his car in his parking spot in the lot in front of his apartment. All he was doing was listening to music about to go to a friend’s house. Men still get jumped and robbed.",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nI don't know, but I have a close friend who did just that. I assure you she's quite trans.\n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nNo it's not.\nThere are studies that show some population level differences between the brains of dysphoric binary trans women and cis folk, but none of them show a complete alignment with cis brains of either gender, none of them explain where gender identity or dysphoria arises from and how these differences might relate and none of them claim that the differences they do uncover are representative of every trans person. \n\nI believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria that they pushed down to mend well into society.\n\nNope. My friend for example doesn't recognise her pre transition life as bad or dysphoric, even now. She's post transition and has been for many years, and this just isn't her experience.",
">\n\nSee so many dudes walking around my suburb in dresses now who clearly aren’t trans and totally just doing it to get attention",
">\n\nBy definition, gender dysphoria is quite literally a prerequisite to transgenderism, but that doesn’t make their preferred identification or gender any less real. Just because gender dysphoria is by-the-books a disease, it doesn’t mean it needs to continue being classified as one. The overall opinion on gender dysphoria is a lot more nuanced than it used be. If all of your opinions are shaped by books written on historical norms, then sure, you are correct in a world that never adapts.\nThe issue is you maintain gender dysphoria is a bad thing just because that’s what you’ve always been told. The “condition” is likely just a sign that transitioning could be a mentally healthy decision for the dysphoric person. If you are willing to admit that transitioning can provide relief to a person, then you are also admitting that there can be truth to the gender dysphoria a person feels. The current definition and your definition of gender dysphoria is based on the principle that the dysphoric person is experiencing incorrect feelings. It would be pedantic of you to suggest your definition of gender dysphoria is not severely outdated. Therefore, there really is no productive outcome from your argument.\nI can say you’re right, but I can also say your outdated perception of gender dysphoria is the reason you feel this take needs to be argued in the first place.",
">\n\nThere's a big difference between philosophy and science, I think you need to start listening to science. It sounds to me like you're constantly trying to preach philosophy to circles of experts with lived experience and not willing to hear them.",
">\n\nThere's gender euphoria without gender dysphoria. Maybe you don't mind being addressed as your agab, but feel more happy and comfortable being trans. That's still valid. Also gender is just a fricking consept, it doesnt matter what your push factor is to being trans as long as you're not intentionally hurting someone and are being genuine to who you are. I think its awesome that there are trans people who don't experience dysphoria, good for them.",
">\n\nAlso its really none of your business why people transition and I think its stupid that the process is so difficult, I get it, its life altering to an extreme degree, but so is plastic surgery, but women who get bigger boobs dont have to explain why they want them or prove that they'd be unhappy without them, but you don't want boobs? Here fill out a years worth of paperwork proving you're unhappy with your body and you have to have your therapist confirm it, and some family or friends. It's absolutely ridiculous. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a process, but the one we have is out of date.\nIts all rooted in the stupid belief that \"females need to want to be feminine and males need to want to be masculine\"\nBoth masculinity and femininity are CONCEPTS \nNo one needs to feel like they need to feed the corrupted image of what society thinks a woman/man \"should\" look like\nIf someone wants to transition to be happier in their own skin, then so be it.\nIts a doctor's job to inform their patients of the risks \nAnd its not your place or anyone else's to tell someone they can't be trans because they don't hate themselves",
">\n\nI think first of all dysphoria can be a spectrum from low-to-high. And people can transition differently based on that.\nThe problem with this gatekeeping is in the practice. Currently, as-is, many trans folks are denied gender-affirming heath-care due to a lot of bureaucracy, lack of clinics, and on religious views of the doctors doing analysis as well, where doctors can refuse to recommend treatment as a matter of personal discretion with no oversight and farther action possible.\nNow, on top that, you are adding an additional layer of determining dysphoria, and this can further add to the bureaucracy.\nHere is Philosophy Tube's video about UK's NHS having several years of backlog queue at gender-clinics, often leading to people using unsafe products from the black-market or suffering from suicidal ideations as a result of this wait.",
">\n\nWhy does OP care? They aren’t Trans so why do they feel entitled to determine who is and isn’t, or more importantly, CAN and CAN’T be trans? Just because somebody has had a number of discussions about a topic, that doesn’t mean they are correct or even arguing in good faith"
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I think a good take on this whole thing is Contrapoints Transtrender. I don't really have much to say that isn't being touched upon in that one.
It might be worth pondering why you care so much about what some other people are doing with their own bodies. To me, it comes off a bit petty. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it.",
">\n\nCould you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.\nI associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.\nOnce someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel?",
">\n\n\nETA: everyone in the comments jumped on the argument of a post-everything trans person no longer feeling dysphoric. I will explain my stance on that here: if someone is ill and they receive continuous medication to block out/alleviate side effects of that illness, are they no longer ill? The answer is no.\n\nSo, this comparison doesn't really work.\nTaking continued medication is not the same as a gender transition. Continued medication to treat an illness has to be done on an ongoing basis, but a gender transition to overcome gender dysphoria is more like a one-and-done procedure.\nYour view would be more correct if it said \"to undergo a gender transition\", a one-time action, instead of \"be transgender\", a continuous state of being.",
">\n\nI guess, technically speaking, that is somewhat of my stance. I think transitioning should be allowed only in the case of gender dysphoria, and those who experience gender dysphoria are transgender. I don't quite understand how someone could be transgender and not experience dysphoria when that is what being transgender is — a biological issue. The continued question I keep asking is \"why would someone transition if they never experienced dysphoria to begin with?\" so I suppose that does correlate with gender dysphoria and transitioning.\nAlso, no, it is not a one-time solution type of thing. You need to take hormones monthly/weekly or your body will switch back to its biological sex. It requires continued treatment. If you stop taking hormones, a lot of the progress you made will be reverted. That is why I compared it to an illness.\nThe only exception is when you get that sex making organ removed (i.e ovaries for trans men), but even then, the ongoing use of medicine is required even more because otherwise your body won't have the hormones you need to continue on.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are transgender under your definition of gender dysphoria since their assigned sex at birth is incongruent with their gender identity. Some non-binary folks , however, myself included, hold out the hope of living in a society without gender identities. In that society, the concept of gender dysphoria would be incoherent; instead, everyone would have varying feelings about their bodies (The difference is between, on the one hand, being able to take for granted that some people have penises and feel okay about that, whereas other people have penises and don't, and, on the other, thinking that people who have penises and are not okay with them want to become women). Those with negative body feelings might undergo body modification surgery—but it wouldn't be gender re-assignment or affirming surgery in a society without gender. \nMy argument is, first, that if it's possible to conceive of such a society, then it's possible to conceive of a transgender person who does not experience gender dysphoria; instead, they merely experience body dysphoria. Second, I also think that contemporary genderfuckery—like drag that isn't trying to be \"fish\" or \"real\" (that is, to pass), public kink, and, heck, lolita and other androgynous-to-high-femme fashion subcultures—can be thought of as a proof-of-concept for such a society. I mean, just like how I can order a unisex Lolita dress in my size right now, maybe one day I can go into a clothing store where clothing is organized by type rather than by men's and women's.",
">\n\nYes, I believe nonbinary folk are transgender. \nI'm sorry, but I don't think I understand your dreams of a society without gender identities. It sounds like a recipe for disaster if there is lack of education on biology. Plus, the lack of teachings about transgenderism is what causes transphobia in the first place. Same with racism, misogyny, etc.",
">\n\nSo it seems that you're not fully convinced that gender is a social construct, which is not to say that it's not very consequential for how people live their lives. (This might be why you're getting pushback in queer circles, by the way; and I mean \"queer\" not, like, mainstream gay such as Pete Buttigieg, etc.)\nOne way of grasping that gender is wholly social is to think about animals. There are people who refer to all cats as female and all dogs as male, that is, with respective \"she\" and \"he\" pronouns, gendered descriptions (\"handsome,\" \"pretty\") etc. Any dog regardless of what genitalia it actually has can be referred to as if it were a \"boy\" dog; this would suggest that, unlike with people, there is no need to interpret physical appearance as if it indicated the kind of genitals. That dogs can be \"boys\" even after we flip them over and find (gasp) a vagina suggests that, first, genitalia do not necessarily indicate gender but only do so under contingent social conditions (e.g., genitalia on people), and, second, that, gender is not tied to biology but, rather, to what we understand biology to mean.",
">\n\nSo you're defining gender dysphoria in a post hoc way, if someone transitions then they have gender dysphoria, whether they say they're perfectly comfortable as they are or not.\nSo... what would change your mind? Because the way you're defining it makes this a non-falsifiable claim, you can always claim someone has dysphoria regardless of their testimony to the contrary.\nOr, how do you know someone has gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThere’s zero point in gatekeeping being transgender. By saying “You NEED gender dysphoria to be trans” is you saying “IF YOU KNOW THAT YOURE TRANS AND DONT HAVE GENDER DYSPHORIA YOURE NOT TRANS😡😡😡” This is also like saying if you haven’t been in a same sex relationship before then you can’t be gay.",
">\n\nForgive me if I missed something in your post to clarify, or this has already been said to death. But it seems you're classifying transgender as someone who wants an actual sex change. If that's what you're talking about, I would agree. Gender dysphoria is the only legitimate reason for doing that. But many trans people DON'T want surgery or hormones, they simply represent and identify as the gender they feel that are, and have no problem with their bodies being what they are.",
">\n\nDysphoria isn’t always a criteria imo you’ll hear enough trans folk who didn’t necessarily feel poorly about their body before transitioning/starting to transition if you spend enough time \nInstead we should be looking at euphoria, the feeling one gets when they feel the most ‘themselves’, which is a way greater tool imo \nBeing ‘meh’ or otherwise uncaring about male pronouns but feeling ‘ecstatic’ when someone uses female pronouns for you, whether they’re doing it accidentally or on purpose, could be a greater clue than a low level dissatisfaction or ambivalence about one’s current body or presentation, for example",
">\n\nThis past week there was a beautiful article about a man who chose to dress as a traditional female but was happily married to the same woman, for many years. If I can find the link I will post it but it was absolutely beautiful and if you read that article and do not change your mind I would be very surprised.",
">\n\n“A ‘real man’ in a dress” is an article in the Washington Post December 21. If you read this and it doesn’t change your mind I will be shocked.",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nFor fun. To rebel. Because you like how it looks. Because you want to experience something new. Because you can.\nMaybe I want to transform myself into a space dolphin so I can sail the liquid methane seas of Saturn's moon, Titan. Am I dysphoric? No, but if the technology is there, and society accepts me, that sounds like a lovely way of being.\nTranshumanism (of which transgenderism is sometimes considered a small part) is about accepting technological and social change and improving the human condition. Why not become something you aren't?",
">\n\nI don't not agree. The desire to be anything other than the gender you were born with doesn't always need dysphoria, all you need is the desire to experience and explore sexuality.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is not a criteria to be transgender. If you read the DSM you’ll see that being transgender is one explanation for gender dysphoria. The DSM defines interpersonal dysfunction. If a person is able to overcome struggles on their own, they will never receive a diagnosis. Therefore, the diagnosis of gender dysphoria means that a person is struggling with their gender identity. The diagnosis doesn’t mean anything beyond that.",
">\n\nDoes a trans person who socially and/or physically transitioned and is happy with their gender presentation (and therefore not experiencing dysphoria) stop being trans? \nAll you need to be trans is to have a gender identity that doesn't match the one assigned to you at birth. Current or previous suffering is not a determining factor.",
">\n\nYour subject line is false as stated as literally every diagnostic standard in the field attests. \nThis I a factual question, not an opinion.",
">\n\nAlmost every transgender/non-binary person I know has attributed it to dysphoria itself, or dysphoria brought on by trauma, so I can’t exactly disagree on that, but I disagree that men can walk around with no problems. Are they the same problems as women’s problems? Probably not but they do have things to fear. My mom’s friend’s son was shot randomly at a red light for looking at someone. All he did was glance. Dude walked up and said, “Tf you looking at?” and shot him. Another guy was shot in his car in his parking spot in the lot in front of his apartment. All he was doing was listening to music about to go to a friend’s house. Men still get jumped and robbed.",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nI don't know, but I have a close friend who did just that. I assure you she's quite trans.\n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nNo it's not.\nThere are studies that show some population level differences between the brains of dysphoric binary trans women and cis folk, but none of them show a complete alignment with cis brains of either gender, none of them explain where gender identity or dysphoria arises from and how these differences might relate and none of them claim that the differences they do uncover are representative of every trans person. \n\nI believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria that they pushed down to mend well into society.\n\nNope. My friend for example doesn't recognise her pre transition life as bad or dysphoric, even now. She's post transition and has been for many years, and this just isn't her experience.",
">\n\nSee so many dudes walking around my suburb in dresses now who clearly aren’t trans and totally just doing it to get attention",
">\n\nBy definition, gender dysphoria is quite literally a prerequisite to transgenderism, but that doesn’t make their preferred identification or gender any less real. Just because gender dysphoria is by-the-books a disease, it doesn’t mean it needs to continue being classified as one. The overall opinion on gender dysphoria is a lot more nuanced than it used be. If all of your opinions are shaped by books written on historical norms, then sure, you are correct in a world that never adapts.\nThe issue is you maintain gender dysphoria is a bad thing just because that’s what you’ve always been told. The “condition” is likely just a sign that transitioning could be a mentally healthy decision for the dysphoric person. If you are willing to admit that transitioning can provide relief to a person, then you are also admitting that there can be truth to the gender dysphoria a person feels. The current definition and your definition of gender dysphoria is based on the principle that the dysphoric person is experiencing incorrect feelings. It would be pedantic of you to suggest your definition of gender dysphoria is not severely outdated. Therefore, there really is no productive outcome from your argument.\nI can say you’re right, but I can also say your outdated perception of gender dysphoria is the reason you feel this take needs to be argued in the first place.",
">\n\nThere's a big difference between philosophy and science, I think you need to start listening to science. It sounds to me like you're constantly trying to preach philosophy to circles of experts with lived experience and not willing to hear them.",
">\n\nThere's gender euphoria without gender dysphoria. Maybe you don't mind being addressed as your agab, but feel more happy and comfortable being trans. That's still valid. Also gender is just a fricking consept, it doesnt matter what your push factor is to being trans as long as you're not intentionally hurting someone and are being genuine to who you are. I think its awesome that there are trans people who don't experience dysphoria, good for them.",
">\n\nAlso its really none of your business why people transition and I think its stupid that the process is so difficult, I get it, its life altering to an extreme degree, but so is plastic surgery, but women who get bigger boobs dont have to explain why they want them or prove that they'd be unhappy without them, but you don't want boobs? Here fill out a years worth of paperwork proving you're unhappy with your body and you have to have your therapist confirm it, and some family or friends. It's absolutely ridiculous. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a process, but the one we have is out of date.\nIts all rooted in the stupid belief that \"females need to want to be feminine and males need to want to be masculine\"\nBoth masculinity and femininity are CONCEPTS \nNo one needs to feel like they need to feed the corrupted image of what society thinks a woman/man \"should\" look like\nIf someone wants to transition to be happier in their own skin, then so be it.\nIts a doctor's job to inform their patients of the risks \nAnd its not your place or anyone else's to tell someone they can't be trans because they don't hate themselves",
">\n\nI think first of all dysphoria can be a spectrum from low-to-high. And people can transition differently based on that.\nThe problem with this gatekeeping is in the practice. Currently, as-is, many trans folks are denied gender-affirming heath-care due to a lot of bureaucracy, lack of clinics, and on religious views of the doctors doing analysis as well, where doctors can refuse to recommend treatment as a matter of personal discretion with no oversight and farther action possible.\nNow, on top that, you are adding an additional layer of determining dysphoria, and this can further add to the bureaucracy.\nHere is Philosophy Tube's video about UK's NHS having several years of backlog queue at gender-clinics, often leading to people using unsafe products from the black-market or suffering from suicidal ideations as a result of this wait.",
">\n\nWhy does OP care? They aren’t Trans so why do they feel entitled to determine who is and isn’t, or more importantly, CAN and CAN’T be trans? Just because somebody has had a number of discussions about a topic, that doesn’t mean they are correct or even arguing in good faith",
">\n\nGood grief. Who tf cares. Whether they have gender dysphoria or not is as fluid as gender, so maybe they have dysphoria somes days and not others."
] |
>
Thank you. I will watch that video when my iPad charges.
Also, it's less of "caring so much about others" and more "why do people believe ____?" I am genuinely just curious on why someone would transition without dysphoria. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it.",
">\n\nCould you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.\nI associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.\nOnce someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel?",
">\n\n\nETA: everyone in the comments jumped on the argument of a post-everything trans person no longer feeling dysphoric. I will explain my stance on that here: if someone is ill and they receive continuous medication to block out/alleviate side effects of that illness, are they no longer ill? The answer is no.\n\nSo, this comparison doesn't really work.\nTaking continued medication is not the same as a gender transition. Continued medication to treat an illness has to be done on an ongoing basis, but a gender transition to overcome gender dysphoria is more like a one-and-done procedure.\nYour view would be more correct if it said \"to undergo a gender transition\", a one-time action, instead of \"be transgender\", a continuous state of being.",
">\n\nI guess, technically speaking, that is somewhat of my stance. I think transitioning should be allowed only in the case of gender dysphoria, and those who experience gender dysphoria are transgender. I don't quite understand how someone could be transgender and not experience dysphoria when that is what being transgender is — a biological issue. The continued question I keep asking is \"why would someone transition if they never experienced dysphoria to begin with?\" so I suppose that does correlate with gender dysphoria and transitioning.\nAlso, no, it is not a one-time solution type of thing. You need to take hormones monthly/weekly or your body will switch back to its biological sex. It requires continued treatment. If you stop taking hormones, a lot of the progress you made will be reverted. That is why I compared it to an illness.\nThe only exception is when you get that sex making organ removed (i.e ovaries for trans men), but even then, the ongoing use of medicine is required even more because otherwise your body won't have the hormones you need to continue on.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are transgender under your definition of gender dysphoria since their assigned sex at birth is incongruent with their gender identity. Some non-binary folks , however, myself included, hold out the hope of living in a society without gender identities. In that society, the concept of gender dysphoria would be incoherent; instead, everyone would have varying feelings about their bodies (The difference is between, on the one hand, being able to take for granted that some people have penises and feel okay about that, whereas other people have penises and don't, and, on the other, thinking that people who have penises and are not okay with them want to become women). Those with negative body feelings might undergo body modification surgery—but it wouldn't be gender re-assignment or affirming surgery in a society without gender. \nMy argument is, first, that if it's possible to conceive of such a society, then it's possible to conceive of a transgender person who does not experience gender dysphoria; instead, they merely experience body dysphoria. Second, I also think that contemporary genderfuckery—like drag that isn't trying to be \"fish\" or \"real\" (that is, to pass), public kink, and, heck, lolita and other androgynous-to-high-femme fashion subcultures—can be thought of as a proof-of-concept for such a society. I mean, just like how I can order a unisex Lolita dress in my size right now, maybe one day I can go into a clothing store where clothing is organized by type rather than by men's and women's.",
">\n\nYes, I believe nonbinary folk are transgender. \nI'm sorry, but I don't think I understand your dreams of a society without gender identities. It sounds like a recipe for disaster if there is lack of education on biology. Plus, the lack of teachings about transgenderism is what causes transphobia in the first place. Same with racism, misogyny, etc.",
">\n\nSo it seems that you're not fully convinced that gender is a social construct, which is not to say that it's not very consequential for how people live their lives. (This might be why you're getting pushback in queer circles, by the way; and I mean \"queer\" not, like, mainstream gay such as Pete Buttigieg, etc.)\nOne way of grasping that gender is wholly social is to think about animals. There are people who refer to all cats as female and all dogs as male, that is, with respective \"she\" and \"he\" pronouns, gendered descriptions (\"handsome,\" \"pretty\") etc. Any dog regardless of what genitalia it actually has can be referred to as if it were a \"boy\" dog; this would suggest that, unlike with people, there is no need to interpret physical appearance as if it indicated the kind of genitals. That dogs can be \"boys\" even after we flip them over and find (gasp) a vagina suggests that, first, genitalia do not necessarily indicate gender but only do so under contingent social conditions (e.g., genitalia on people), and, second, that, gender is not tied to biology but, rather, to what we understand biology to mean.",
">\n\nSo you're defining gender dysphoria in a post hoc way, if someone transitions then they have gender dysphoria, whether they say they're perfectly comfortable as they are or not.\nSo... what would change your mind? Because the way you're defining it makes this a non-falsifiable claim, you can always claim someone has dysphoria regardless of their testimony to the contrary.\nOr, how do you know someone has gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThere’s zero point in gatekeeping being transgender. By saying “You NEED gender dysphoria to be trans” is you saying “IF YOU KNOW THAT YOURE TRANS AND DONT HAVE GENDER DYSPHORIA YOURE NOT TRANS😡😡😡” This is also like saying if you haven’t been in a same sex relationship before then you can’t be gay.",
">\n\nForgive me if I missed something in your post to clarify, or this has already been said to death. But it seems you're classifying transgender as someone who wants an actual sex change. If that's what you're talking about, I would agree. Gender dysphoria is the only legitimate reason for doing that. But many trans people DON'T want surgery or hormones, they simply represent and identify as the gender they feel that are, and have no problem with their bodies being what they are.",
">\n\nDysphoria isn’t always a criteria imo you’ll hear enough trans folk who didn’t necessarily feel poorly about their body before transitioning/starting to transition if you spend enough time \nInstead we should be looking at euphoria, the feeling one gets when they feel the most ‘themselves’, which is a way greater tool imo \nBeing ‘meh’ or otherwise uncaring about male pronouns but feeling ‘ecstatic’ when someone uses female pronouns for you, whether they’re doing it accidentally or on purpose, could be a greater clue than a low level dissatisfaction or ambivalence about one’s current body or presentation, for example",
">\n\nThis past week there was a beautiful article about a man who chose to dress as a traditional female but was happily married to the same woman, for many years. If I can find the link I will post it but it was absolutely beautiful and if you read that article and do not change your mind I would be very surprised.",
">\n\n“A ‘real man’ in a dress” is an article in the Washington Post December 21. If you read this and it doesn’t change your mind I will be shocked.",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nFor fun. To rebel. Because you like how it looks. Because you want to experience something new. Because you can.\nMaybe I want to transform myself into a space dolphin so I can sail the liquid methane seas of Saturn's moon, Titan. Am I dysphoric? No, but if the technology is there, and society accepts me, that sounds like a lovely way of being.\nTranshumanism (of which transgenderism is sometimes considered a small part) is about accepting technological and social change and improving the human condition. Why not become something you aren't?",
">\n\nI don't not agree. The desire to be anything other than the gender you were born with doesn't always need dysphoria, all you need is the desire to experience and explore sexuality.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is not a criteria to be transgender. If you read the DSM you’ll see that being transgender is one explanation for gender dysphoria. The DSM defines interpersonal dysfunction. If a person is able to overcome struggles on their own, they will never receive a diagnosis. Therefore, the diagnosis of gender dysphoria means that a person is struggling with their gender identity. The diagnosis doesn’t mean anything beyond that.",
">\n\nDoes a trans person who socially and/or physically transitioned and is happy with their gender presentation (and therefore not experiencing dysphoria) stop being trans? \nAll you need to be trans is to have a gender identity that doesn't match the one assigned to you at birth. Current or previous suffering is not a determining factor.",
">\n\nYour subject line is false as stated as literally every diagnostic standard in the field attests. \nThis I a factual question, not an opinion.",
">\n\nAlmost every transgender/non-binary person I know has attributed it to dysphoria itself, or dysphoria brought on by trauma, so I can’t exactly disagree on that, but I disagree that men can walk around with no problems. Are they the same problems as women’s problems? Probably not but they do have things to fear. My mom’s friend’s son was shot randomly at a red light for looking at someone. All he did was glance. Dude walked up and said, “Tf you looking at?” and shot him. Another guy was shot in his car in his parking spot in the lot in front of his apartment. All he was doing was listening to music about to go to a friend’s house. Men still get jumped and robbed.",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nI don't know, but I have a close friend who did just that. I assure you she's quite trans.\n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nNo it's not.\nThere are studies that show some population level differences between the brains of dysphoric binary trans women and cis folk, but none of them show a complete alignment with cis brains of either gender, none of them explain where gender identity or dysphoria arises from and how these differences might relate and none of them claim that the differences they do uncover are representative of every trans person. \n\nI believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria that they pushed down to mend well into society.\n\nNope. My friend for example doesn't recognise her pre transition life as bad or dysphoric, even now. She's post transition and has been for many years, and this just isn't her experience.",
">\n\nSee so many dudes walking around my suburb in dresses now who clearly aren’t trans and totally just doing it to get attention",
">\n\nBy definition, gender dysphoria is quite literally a prerequisite to transgenderism, but that doesn’t make their preferred identification or gender any less real. Just because gender dysphoria is by-the-books a disease, it doesn’t mean it needs to continue being classified as one. The overall opinion on gender dysphoria is a lot more nuanced than it used be. If all of your opinions are shaped by books written on historical norms, then sure, you are correct in a world that never adapts.\nThe issue is you maintain gender dysphoria is a bad thing just because that’s what you’ve always been told. The “condition” is likely just a sign that transitioning could be a mentally healthy decision for the dysphoric person. If you are willing to admit that transitioning can provide relief to a person, then you are also admitting that there can be truth to the gender dysphoria a person feels. The current definition and your definition of gender dysphoria is based on the principle that the dysphoric person is experiencing incorrect feelings. It would be pedantic of you to suggest your definition of gender dysphoria is not severely outdated. Therefore, there really is no productive outcome from your argument.\nI can say you’re right, but I can also say your outdated perception of gender dysphoria is the reason you feel this take needs to be argued in the first place.",
">\n\nThere's a big difference between philosophy and science, I think you need to start listening to science. It sounds to me like you're constantly trying to preach philosophy to circles of experts with lived experience and not willing to hear them.",
">\n\nThere's gender euphoria without gender dysphoria. Maybe you don't mind being addressed as your agab, but feel more happy and comfortable being trans. That's still valid. Also gender is just a fricking consept, it doesnt matter what your push factor is to being trans as long as you're not intentionally hurting someone and are being genuine to who you are. I think its awesome that there are trans people who don't experience dysphoria, good for them.",
">\n\nAlso its really none of your business why people transition and I think its stupid that the process is so difficult, I get it, its life altering to an extreme degree, but so is plastic surgery, but women who get bigger boobs dont have to explain why they want them or prove that they'd be unhappy without them, but you don't want boobs? Here fill out a years worth of paperwork proving you're unhappy with your body and you have to have your therapist confirm it, and some family or friends. It's absolutely ridiculous. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a process, but the one we have is out of date.\nIts all rooted in the stupid belief that \"females need to want to be feminine and males need to want to be masculine\"\nBoth masculinity and femininity are CONCEPTS \nNo one needs to feel like they need to feed the corrupted image of what society thinks a woman/man \"should\" look like\nIf someone wants to transition to be happier in their own skin, then so be it.\nIts a doctor's job to inform their patients of the risks \nAnd its not your place or anyone else's to tell someone they can't be trans because they don't hate themselves",
">\n\nI think first of all dysphoria can be a spectrum from low-to-high. And people can transition differently based on that.\nThe problem with this gatekeeping is in the practice. Currently, as-is, many trans folks are denied gender-affirming heath-care due to a lot of bureaucracy, lack of clinics, and on religious views of the doctors doing analysis as well, where doctors can refuse to recommend treatment as a matter of personal discretion with no oversight and farther action possible.\nNow, on top that, you are adding an additional layer of determining dysphoria, and this can further add to the bureaucracy.\nHere is Philosophy Tube's video about UK's NHS having several years of backlog queue at gender-clinics, often leading to people using unsafe products from the black-market or suffering from suicidal ideations as a result of this wait.",
">\n\nWhy does OP care? They aren’t Trans so why do they feel entitled to determine who is and isn’t, or more importantly, CAN and CAN’T be trans? Just because somebody has had a number of discussions about a topic, that doesn’t mean they are correct or even arguing in good faith",
">\n\nGood grief. Who tf cares. Whether they have gender dysphoria or not is as fluid as gender, so maybe they have dysphoria somes days and not others.",
">\n\nI think a good take on this whole thing is Contrapoints Transtrender. I don't really have much to say that isn't being touched upon in that one. \nIt might be worth pondering why you care so much about what some other people are doing with their own bodies. To me, it comes off a bit petty."
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Personally, I love horror movies. Getting scared is the best thing ever. But I simply cannot handle embarassing scenes.
This is something that always baffled me, that some people enjoy being scared, or enjoy second-hand embarassment, while it for others are flat-out unpleasant.
With this perspective, it wouldn't surprise me if some people simply didn't get any gender dysphoria, despite being ever so much trans. Maybe some brains are just wired to handle the mismatch differently, maybe they're have a different way of seeing themselves. Something. | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it.",
">\n\nCould you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.\nI associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.\nOnce someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel?",
">\n\n\nETA: everyone in the comments jumped on the argument of a post-everything trans person no longer feeling dysphoric. I will explain my stance on that here: if someone is ill and they receive continuous medication to block out/alleviate side effects of that illness, are they no longer ill? The answer is no.\n\nSo, this comparison doesn't really work.\nTaking continued medication is not the same as a gender transition. Continued medication to treat an illness has to be done on an ongoing basis, but a gender transition to overcome gender dysphoria is more like a one-and-done procedure.\nYour view would be more correct if it said \"to undergo a gender transition\", a one-time action, instead of \"be transgender\", a continuous state of being.",
">\n\nI guess, technically speaking, that is somewhat of my stance. I think transitioning should be allowed only in the case of gender dysphoria, and those who experience gender dysphoria are transgender. I don't quite understand how someone could be transgender and not experience dysphoria when that is what being transgender is — a biological issue. The continued question I keep asking is \"why would someone transition if they never experienced dysphoria to begin with?\" so I suppose that does correlate with gender dysphoria and transitioning.\nAlso, no, it is not a one-time solution type of thing. You need to take hormones monthly/weekly or your body will switch back to its biological sex. It requires continued treatment. If you stop taking hormones, a lot of the progress you made will be reverted. That is why I compared it to an illness.\nThe only exception is when you get that sex making organ removed (i.e ovaries for trans men), but even then, the ongoing use of medicine is required even more because otherwise your body won't have the hormones you need to continue on.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are transgender under your definition of gender dysphoria since their assigned sex at birth is incongruent with their gender identity. Some non-binary folks , however, myself included, hold out the hope of living in a society without gender identities. In that society, the concept of gender dysphoria would be incoherent; instead, everyone would have varying feelings about their bodies (The difference is between, on the one hand, being able to take for granted that some people have penises and feel okay about that, whereas other people have penises and don't, and, on the other, thinking that people who have penises and are not okay with them want to become women). Those with negative body feelings might undergo body modification surgery—but it wouldn't be gender re-assignment or affirming surgery in a society without gender. \nMy argument is, first, that if it's possible to conceive of such a society, then it's possible to conceive of a transgender person who does not experience gender dysphoria; instead, they merely experience body dysphoria. Second, I also think that contemporary genderfuckery—like drag that isn't trying to be \"fish\" or \"real\" (that is, to pass), public kink, and, heck, lolita and other androgynous-to-high-femme fashion subcultures—can be thought of as a proof-of-concept for such a society. I mean, just like how I can order a unisex Lolita dress in my size right now, maybe one day I can go into a clothing store where clothing is organized by type rather than by men's and women's.",
">\n\nYes, I believe nonbinary folk are transgender. \nI'm sorry, but I don't think I understand your dreams of a society without gender identities. It sounds like a recipe for disaster if there is lack of education on biology. Plus, the lack of teachings about transgenderism is what causes transphobia in the first place. Same with racism, misogyny, etc.",
">\n\nSo it seems that you're not fully convinced that gender is a social construct, which is not to say that it's not very consequential for how people live their lives. (This might be why you're getting pushback in queer circles, by the way; and I mean \"queer\" not, like, mainstream gay such as Pete Buttigieg, etc.)\nOne way of grasping that gender is wholly social is to think about animals. There are people who refer to all cats as female and all dogs as male, that is, with respective \"she\" and \"he\" pronouns, gendered descriptions (\"handsome,\" \"pretty\") etc. Any dog regardless of what genitalia it actually has can be referred to as if it were a \"boy\" dog; this would suggest that, unlike with people, there is no need to interpret physical appearance as if it indicated the kind of genitals. That dogs can be \"boys\" even after we flip them over and find (gasp) a vagina suggests that, first, genitalia do not necessarily indicate gender but only do so under contingent social conditions (e.g., genitalia on people), and, second, that, gender is not tied to biology but, rather, to what we understand biology to mean.",
">\n\nSo you're defining gender dysphoria in a post hoc way, if someone transitions then they have gender dysphoria, whether they say they're perfectly comfortable as they are or not.\nSo... what would change your mind? Because the way you're defining it makes this a non-falsifiable claim, you can always claim someone has dysphoria regardless of their testimony to the contrary.\nOr, how do you know someone has gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThere’s zero point in gatekeeping being transgender. By saying “You NEED gender dysphoria to be trans” is you saying “IF YOU KNOW THAT YOURE TRANS AND DONT HAVE GENDER DYSPHORIA YOURE NOT TRANS😡😡😡” This is also like saying if you haven’t been in a same sex relationship before then you can’t be gay.",
">\n\nForgive me if I missed something in your post to clarify, or this has already been said to death. But it seems you're classifying transgender as someone who wants an actual sex change. If that's what you're talking about, I would agree. Gender dysphoria is the only legitimate reason for doing that. But many trans people DON'T want surgery or hormones, they simply represent and identify as the gender they feel that are, and have no problem with their bodies being what they are.",
">\n\nDysphoria isn’t always a criteria imo you’ll hear enough trans folk who didn’t necessarily feel poorly about their body before transitioning/starting to transition if you spend enough time \nInstead we should be looking at euphoria, the feeling one gets when they feel the most ‘themselves’, which is a way greater tool imo \nBeing ‘meh’ or otherwise uncaring about male pronouns but feeling ‘ecstatic’ when someone uses female pronouns for you, whether they’re doing it accidentally or on purpose, could be a greater clue than a low level dissatisfaction or ambivalence about one’s current body or presentation, for example",
">\n\nThis past week there was a beautiful article about a man who chose to dress as a traditional female but was happily married to the same woman, for many years. If I can find the link I will post it but it was absolutely beautiful and if you read that article and do not change your mind I would be very surprised.",
">\n\n“A ‘real man’ in a dress” is an article in the Washington Post December 21. If you read this and it doesn’t change your mind I will be shocked.",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nFor fun. To rebel. Because you like how it looks. Because you want to experience something new. Because you can.\nMaybe I want to transform myself into a space dolphin so I can sail the liquid methane seas of Saturn's moon, Titan. Am I dysphoric? No, but if the technology is there, and society accepts me, that sounds like a lovely way of being.\nTranshumanism (of which transgenderism is sometimes considered a small part) is about accepting technological and social change and improving the human condition. Why not become something you aren't?",
">\n\nI don't not agree. The desire to be anything other than the gender you were born with doesn't always need dysphoria, all you need is the desire to experience and explore sexuality.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is not a criteria to be transgender. If you read the DSM you’ll see that being transgender is one explanation for gender dysphoria. The DSM defines interpersonal dysfunction. If a person is able to overcome struggles on their own, they will never receive a diagnosis. Therefore, the diagnosis of gender dysphoria means that a person is struggling with their gender identity. The diagnosis doesn’t mean anything beyond that.",
">\n\nDoes a trans person who socially and/or physically transitioned and is happy with their gender presentation (and therefore not experiencing dysphoria) stop being trans? \nAll you need to be trans is to have a gender identity that doesn't match the one assigned to you at birth. Current or previous suffering is not a determining factor.",
">\n\nYour subject line is false as stated as literally every diagnostic standard in the field attests. \nThis I a factual question, not an opinion.",
">\n\nAlmost every transgender/non-binary person I know has attributed it to dysphoria itself, or dysphoria brought on by trauma, so I can’t exactly disagree on that, but I disagree that men can walk around with no problems. Are they the same problems as women’s problems? Probably not but they do have things to fear. My mom’s friend’s son was shot randomly at a red light for looking at someone. All he did was glance. Dude walked up and said, “Tf you looking at?” and shot him. Another guy was shot in his car in his parking spot in the lot in front of his apartment. All he was doing was listening to music about to go to a friend’s house. Men still get jumped and robbed.",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nI don't know, but I have a close friend who did just that. I assure you she's quite trans.\n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nNo it's not.\nThere are studies that show some population level differences between the brains of dysphoric binary trans women and cis folk, but none of them show a complete alignment with cis brains of either gender, none of them explain where gender identity or dysphoria arises from and how these differences might relate and none of them claim that the differences they do uncover are representative of every trans person. \n\nI believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria that they pushed down to mend well into society.\n\nNope. My friend for example doesn't recognise her pre transition life as bad or dysphoric, even now. She's post transition and has been for many years, and this just isn't her experience.",
">\n\nSee so many dudes walking around my suburb in dresses now who clearly aren’t trans and totally just doing it to get attention",
">\n\nBy definition, gender dysphoria is quite literally a prerequisite to transgenderism, but that doesn’t make their preferred identification or gender any less real. Just because gender dysphoria is by-the-books a disease, it doesn’t mean it needs to continue being classified as one. The overall opinion on gender dysphoria is a lot more nuanced than it used be. If all of your opinions are shaped by books written on historical norms, then sure, you are correct in a world that never adapts.\nThe issue is you maintain gender dysphoria is a bad thing just because that’s what you’ve always been told. The “condition” is likely just a sign that transitioning could be a mentally healthy decision for the dysphoric person. If you are willing to admit that transitioning can provide relief to a person, then you are also admitting that there can be truth to the gender dysphoria a person feels. The current definition and your definition of gender dysphoria is based on the principle that the dysphoric person is experiencing incorrect feelings. It would be pedantic of you to suggest your definition of gender dysphoria is not severely outdated. Therefore, there really is no productive outcome from your argument.\nI can say you’re right, but I can also say your outdated perception of gender dysphoria is the reason you feel this take needs to be argued in the first place.",
">\n\nThere's a big difference between philosophy and science, I think you need to start listening to science. It sounds to me like you're constantly trying to preach philosophy to circles of experts with lived experience and not willing to hear them.",
">\n\nThere's gender euphoria without gender dysphoria. Maybe you don't mind being addressed as your agab, but feel more happy and comfortable being trans. That's still valid. Also gender is just a fricking consept, it doesnt matter what your push factor is to being trans as long as you're not intentionally hurting someone and are being genuine to who you are. I think its awesome that there are trans people who don't experience dysphoria, good for them.",
">\n\nAlso its really none of your business why people transition and I think its stupid that the process is so difficult, I get it, its life altering to an extreme degree, but so is plastic surgery, but women who get bigger boobs dont have to explain why they want them or prove that they'd be unhappy without them, but you don't want boobs? Here fill out a years worth of paperwork proving you're unhappy with your body and you have to have your therapist confirm it, and some family or friends. It's absolutely ridiculous. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a process, but the one we have is out of date.\nIts all rooted in the stupid belief that \"females need to want to be feminine and males need to want to be masculine\"\nBoth masculinity and femininity are CONCEPTS \nNo one needs to feel like they need to feed the corrupted image of what society thinks a woman/man \"should\" look like\nIf someone wants to transition to be happier in their own skin, then so be it.\nIts a doctor's job to inform their patients of the risks \nAnd its not your place or anyone else's to tell someone they can't be trans because they don't hate themselves",
">\n\nI think first of all dysphoria can be a spectrum from low-to-high. And people can transition differently based on that.\nThe problem with this gatekeeping is in the practice. Currently, as-is, many trans folks are denied gender-affirming heath-care due to a lot of bureaucracy, lack of clinics, and on religious views of the doctors doing analysis as well, where doctors can refuse to recommend treatment as a matter of personal discretion with no oversight and farther action possible.\nNow, on top that, you are adding an additional layer of determining dysphoria, and this can further add to the bureaucracy.\nHere is Philosophy Tube's video about UK's NHS having several years of backlog queue at gender-clinics, often leading to people using unsafe products from the black-market or suffering from suicidal ideations as a result of this wait.",
">\n\nWhy does OP care? They aren’t Trans so why do they feel entitled to determine who is and isn’t, or more importantly, CAN and CAN’T be trans? Just because somebody has had a number of discussions about a topic, that doesn’t mean they are correct or even arguing in good faith",
">\n\nGood grief. Who tf cares. Whether they have gender dysphoria or not is as fluid as gender, so maybe they have dysphoria somes days and not others.",
">\n\nI think a good take on this whole thing is Contrapoints Transtrender. I don't really have much to say that isn't being touched upon in that one. \nIt might be worth pondering why you care so much about what some other people are doing with their own bodies. To me, it comes off a bit petty.",
">\n\nThank you. I will watch that video when my iPad charges.\nAlso, it's less of \"caring so much about others\" and more \"why do people believe ____?\" I am genuinely just curious on why someone would transition without dysphoria."
] |
> | [
"Stripped to the studs you seem to be saying that being trans means running away from your old gender, and that— in terms of identity signifier— running to the new gender can be seen as incidental: a byproduct of running from the birth gender. \nThe seems odd to me. Whether someone's transitioning because they're running from something that feels wrong or towards something that feels more correct seems like it shouldn't much matter. \nIt seems to me that you're not taking people seriously. You dismiss people who say they experience euphoria and not dysphoria, claiming they're just lying to themselves, or repressed. That might be true, but doesn't it seem more likely to you that people simply have a different internal emotional experience than you? How often do you see people online dismissing the experience of others because they find it illegible based on their experience: {\"Why don't you just choose to stop being depressed?\"}. How often do cis people tell you that your trans identity isn't real because they had a phase as a tomboy. It's good practice to take people at their word {within reason}, and to understand that people's experiences can vary quite a lot from our own. \nRE: knowing euphoria without dysphoria. This again, seems odd to me. Surely, you'd know what loving touch felt like even if you'd never been beat. You can find yourself suddenly happy without having first been miserable. You can discover a new flavor you like more than anything without suddenly realizing that all your gustatory experiences before that were rank torture. I have a hard time addressing this point because I find the notion fairly confusing, but it feels important to address it, because this seems to be near the heart of things for you. \n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nAlso, just as a point of interest, this actually isn't true in any meaningful way. Source: phd in neuroscience and keenly interested in that kind of thing. The science behind such studies is very shoddy, or have lots of qualifiers that mean it doesn't say what people think it does.",
">\n\n(To your last point) Really? I never knew that. When I did research on it, it was backed up by various studies and proclaimed to be true by experts in that field.\nAnd yes, I do admit in my post that it could be due to my lack of outside experience. Because I experience dysphoria, I cannot understand someone who doesn't. I could very well be trying to rationalize it in a way that makes sense to me and I recognize that, which is why I am here.\nI guess the core point no one has explained to me is this: why would someone begin the transition process, should they not experience dysphoria? Does it just seem appealing? I truly do not understand it, and I am trying my best to.",
">\n\nSeems like central here is what it means to be trans. What is the transition process? When does it begin? Is it social transition? HRT? Exploring gender non-conformity? What counts and what doesnt? It's a tough question to answer because I don't think the term is well-defined. \nBut someone might, say, engage in some gender non-conformity, realize something about it feels fulfilling or authentic, and gradually feel into that sense of authenticity or beauty only to realize they're some degree or another of trans. Basically, fuck around and find out. \nI also know some nonbinary people who started down that path only to realize that HRT disagreed with them in some way or another, so they desisted and expressed their queerness in less medical ways.",
">\n\nSomeone can be GNC without being transgender. In the same sense, someone can be transgender without medically transitioning, though I believe that would help alleviate the long-term dysphoria. The transition process typically starts social for experimentation (pronouns, sometimes social expression for personal reasons which is where I will say I definitely agree with the points in your second to last paragraph) and usually becomes medical (HRT and surgery), though, as mentioned, not everyone does it in this order or does it at all given specific sets of circumstances.\nTrans-ness is really hard to define, but that's why I define it as someone who experiences a disconnect between physical sex and their mind. Transitioning is a choice that may help that dysphoria go away, but it is not the \"forced\" choice.\nThis is how I define it, atleast. Or in my mind, that is how it works and typically how it goes for trans folk. My question centers around medically transitioning more than social to start with — why would someone begin the medical transition process if they did not feel dysphoria in the first place? Or, going deeper, why would they question their gender if they had no reason to in the first place?",
">\n\nThe issue with dysphoria as an approach is that it tends towards a weird kinda medical/psychological approach. It's often defined in a narrow fashion that exclusively refers to body dysphoria, and the structure as a whole lends itself to gatekeeping. Just think about the way the term is positioned, through the lens of diagnosis and such. Whatever our imagined ideal for the term, this is the way the term often operates. Your approach to the term even includes this, talking about medical professionals. \nYou can excise these issues, sure, but the outcome is invariably that your claim, that dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans, becomes circular. Say we remove the medical aspect. No need for a gatekeeper. We expand past body dysphoria to include any sort of feeling that preferences one set of gendered stuff over another. We include euphoria as well, because the state pre-euphoria can be defined as dysphoria in contrast to that state. Moreover, we recognize that an understanding of \"dysphoria\" is individual to the person. What are we left with?\nWell, at the end of the day, not all that much. Tell me, what does our definition of \"dysphoria\" mean besides, \"Any set of mental states or characteristics that incline one towards being trans,\"? At which point, yeah, if you have nothing to incline you towards being trans, then you're probably not trans. But that doesn't actually say much. It's literally just saying, \"Behavior has causes.\" Or, \"Identity has causes.\" Y'know, depending on how you're approaching it. You could equally say you need ice cream dysphoria to want ice cream. Or that you need religion dysphoria to be Christian. Or, hell, that you need gender dysphoria to be cisgender. After all, they need some cause to not be trans.\nYou can take it all back the other direction, try to add caveats to what counts or does not count as dysphoria, but at that point I become skeptical of your core claim, that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. Broadly, either the term is meaningless, and the claim about it is true, or it has some real meaning, and I do not think the claim about it is true.",
">\n\nThis was a very interesting approach, and it has made me think about some things. Especially the points in the second to last paragraph, it was really interesting and I'm thankful for the perspective.\nMy goal with this post definitely wasn't to \"gatekeep\" trans-ness, or to determine who should/shouldn't transition. I am mostly trying to understand the reason of why someone would transition if they didn't experience dysphoria in the first place without feeling discomfort or some form of disliking their natural body.\nI typically define dysphoria as the lack of correlation in terms of physical appearance. Meaning when their biological sex doesn't correlate with the gender they closely resonate to/react with. I suppose this does fall under your category of gatekeeping, but I simply can't understand any reasons why someone would begin the transition process if they weren't completely sure that their body didn't fit their mind.",
">\n\nOkay, so yeah, I disagree. Body dysphoria is a big one, but social dysphoria, the way you are understood by society, can be a pretty big deal as well. I've heard mental dysphoria can also be pertinent, especially because hormones impact your brain stuff. And those are just the big chunky categories. One could plausibly imagine other reasons someone might pursue transition of one form or another. Someone can also be trans without pursuing transition, and they may have still more reasons for considering themself trans.",
">\n\n\nA lot of modern day \"mainstream\" beliefs argue that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans because of the concept of gender euphoria [...] I believe this is a pretty good claim, however I disagree with it because of this philosophical belief: in order to know that something is good, you must recognize when something is bad. [...] I believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria\n\nSo, correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're arguing that if someone really is much happier after transitioning, that implies that they were experiencing gender dysphoria before they transitioned; they just for whatever reason failed to recognize that fact at the time.\nI think that misses the point of what people mean when they talk about trans people who don't experience gender dysphoria. If you define gender dysphoria as \"not being as happy as you could be because of incongruence between your gender identity and AGAB\", then by definition every trans person experiences gender dysphoria. But that's not what people usually mean when they talk about gender dysphoria.\nUsually, gender dysphoria refers to feeling distress and a sense of \"wrongness\" about the aspects of your body and behavior that align with a gender you do not identify with. If someone is merely passively dissatisfied with those aspects of themself, that does not rise to the level of what most people would call gender dysphoria. I'm a trans woman myself and while I have experienced plenty of dysphoria, there are certain things that are common dysphoria triggers for other trans women that don't bother me.\nFor example, I don't experience genital dysphoria. I sometimes feel it might be nicer if I had a vagina, but I never feel distress about having a penis, nor do I ever feel like my penis shouldn't be part of my body. I accept it as part of me and could even say it's a feature I like about my body. And what's particularly interesting is, I used to feel genital dysphoria, used to want bottom surgery, but after a year or so on HRT and being out to everyone in my life, it just stopped and I decided not to pursue bottom surgery. I don't think that can be explained by internalized transphobia--it's just that this stuff is kind of weird and messy and personal, and not everyone's experience will map on to a linear 1:1:1 between identity, dysphoria, and desire to transition.\nMy point being, I find it easy to imagine someone who knows they'd be happier if they were to transition, but doesn't feel any actual gender dysphoria, not because they're in denial or repressing it, but just because enough else is going right in their life that their gender situation doesn't cause them distress. No different from how a single person might have a happy enough life that they don't feel a strong need to seek a partner out of loneliness, but still recognize they'd be happier with a partner.\nIt's also worth pointing out that even if literally no trans people like that existed, it would still be a useful fiction to say that they did. I'm a counselor who works primarily with trans people early on in their transition, and you might be surprised how extremely common it is for people to invalidate themselves and delay transitioning because of insecurity about a lack of dysphoria. It's not even that these people don't have dysphoria, but that they're telling themselves \"My dysphoria doesn't make me constantly miserable, so I'm not really trans\". Very often, it ends up becoming a downright toxic belief, where their misery over not allowing themselves to identify as trans becomes something they can finally identify as gender dysphoria, but now they feel they must constantly stay that miserable to be allowed to identify as trans, so there is no relief from the revelation and they may even unconsciously sabotage their own happiness to exacerbate the dysphoria.\nIf we make it known and agreed upon that dysphoria is not required to be trans, then this behavior that causes so many people so much agony would simply disappear. They would not have the belief that being trans requires being miserable, and thus they could transition a lot sooner and with a lot less pain. Even if every single trans person in the world still felt some dysphoria anyway, it seems really harmful for literally no benefit to go around saying that that dysphoria is what makes them trans and they wouldn't be trans without it.",
">\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are getting permission to change their legal identities to be women? Surely there's some restrictions on this that would exclude these guys?",
">\n\n\nWait what, does this mean that men with a sexual fetish of being women are being allowed to change their legal identities to be women?\n\nEven if doctors don't yet consider it a 'valid' reason, you can still claim to have gender dysphoria if you want to transition I guess.\n\nSurely there's some restrictions on this?\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.",
">\n\n\nWhy should there be? Their body, their choice.\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.",
">\n\n\nYes that part is fine, they can do whatever with their bodies, but if it's a fetish then how can they really be transgender? \n\nHere's the part of OP I'm replying to:\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\nIt's the central question of the CMV. People with autogynephilia would want to switch sexes despite not having dysphoria.\n\nI don't see why these guys should be considered women and allowed to go into women's locker rooms etc. if it's a sexual thing for them.\n\nIt's an entirely internalized feeling about being a woman within a sexual context. It doesn't put other people at risk.",
">\n\nDo you have any evidence that there are any people with autogynephilia who want to transition but do not have gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThis source does not assert that Anne Lawrence did not experience gender dysphoria. Why do you believe that is the case?",
">\n\nLawrence's work cited at the bottom of the article - specifically the first citation - draws a distinction between transitioning for dysphoric reasons and transitioning for sexual reasons. Given that she defines herself by the latter, I don't see why we shouldn't take her word for it.",
">\n\nCan you quote the section from the text which you interpret as Lawrence asserting that she did not experience gender dysphoria? No such thing is readily apparent from searching the text.",
">\n\nThat's kind of the thing I'm wondering. How someone can be trans without experiencing dysphoria.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are by definition, transgender. And plenty of NB folks don’t have gender dysphoria and just simply don’t like to be put into a box. But regardless, sex and gender are different things, wanting to change ones own gender doesn’t necessarily mean you are uncomfortable with your physiology. It just means you’d like to change how you’re perceived by others in a purely social sense. While there’s a lot of overlap, they’re not necessarily the same thing",
">\n\nI tried talking about this stuff with people irl and got threatened to be thrown down a set of stairs",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise.\n\nI agree here. Gender dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for gender affirming treatment. But I think it's a bit more confusing, at least it is to me.\nGender identity is an autonomous evaluation. I feel like a man, or I feel like a woman. I think your question is aiming more towards: if I want to feel like something else, I need to feel uncomfortable with what I am first. That, I do not agree with. I think there are plenty of valid reasons one may choose to identify as a different gender than their sex that don't rely on the exclusivity of necessarily feeling uncomfortable to start. \nHowever, with that said, I also think that collectively we jumped the shark on gender. I think gender transition inherently ignores the idea that the subject simply can't know what they are transitioning to. We like to call it female to male, or male to female, etc., but is it? I was born a male, and live as a man. I've never identified myself as one because I've never had to. But I know what collectively we all determined to be a 'man' because... I check all those boxes. I have a penis, I was raised as a person with a penis - meaning I was raised as a boy. I partook in the events and activities of boys. I experienced puberty as a boy. I felt heterosexual feelings as a boy.\nThose are all experiences that tie directly to that societal construct of 'man.' And me living this lifetime of experiences has brought me to one basic truth: I have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman. I could act like I do - but I don't. I don't have that biology. I wasn't raised as a girl. I didn't go through the lifetime of events that girls do that shape their worlds just as mine was shaped for me.\nSo if I didn't feel like a man - how can I say I feel like a woman when... I don't even know what that is? \nThis is not an attempt to downplay dysmorphia, the trans population, or identity in any way. I think it's very healthy to have open and rational conversations about these topics. Because for someone like me, I have no desire for anyone to have anything but the best for them. I just don't understand this - and if I don't understand, I'm afraid of finding myself like OP, worried that my thinking is discriminatory.",
">\n\nGoing further along your train of thought... you have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, and you also have no idea what it feels like to be another man, even one who checks all those same boxes for societal markers. I mean, those will give you some commonalities, but you won't have that other man's brain, and there's really no way I know of to know for sure if you're both processing your experiences as men the same way or feeling the same way about them, even if they outwardly look the same. For all we know, every single one of us experiences our gender in a way that's unique to us.\nWhich is why, as a cis person who is not a doctor, scientist, researcher, or any kind of expert on anything, my default position is to just believe people when they tell me who they are and not overthink it. Because I can't possibly know how it feels to be them, and I sure can't know better than them how it feels to be them.",
">\n\nI just wanted to say that this was such a good point and very well-said. I feel like any cis person could benefit from hearing this perspective. I'm a long-time ally of the LGBTQ+ community and it still gave me food for thought. Thanks for this!",
">\n\nThe easiest rebuttal to your view is that it's simply not your place or my place to gatekeep other peoples' feelings about their own gender. People have a right to self-determination, and that right needs to be respected. Neither of us are qualified as medical doctors or psychiatrists to say what the appropriate standards of diagnosis and care should be.",
">\n\nBut this clearly isn't universal (hence attack helicopter meme), so you have to justify why self identification ought apply to gender identities (and what gender would even mean, since it's pretty hard to have a word that both has meaning yet doesn't map onto anything in reality).",
">\n\nSure it is. The attack helicopter meme is people engaged in bad faith. They aren't asking us to sincerely believe that they identify as an attack helicopter.",
">\n\nImplying that somebody who sincerely identified as an attack helicopter would actually be one?",
">\n\nSure, so long as they're fine with us housing them on a helipad, loading them with missiles, and feeding them gasoline. If they aren't content actually being treated like an attack helicopter, then they don't identify as one.",
">\n\nSo the utility in an identity is in how you're treated/want to be treated? So a cis woman would cease to be a woman if people didn't treat her like a woman or if she preferred being treated in the way that men are commonly treated?",
">\n\nIf they preferred to be treated in every way like a man does then, by definition, they are trans, yes. They would be using he/him pronouns and such.",
">\n\nDo many men prefer to be treated in every way that men stereotypically are, and is this a necessary condition of being a man? I certainly don't, but maybe I've just discovered that I'm not a man at all, then.",
">\n\nIf you don't want to be treated how men are stereotypically treated, then say something. What's the issue?",
">\n\nSo, to clarify. You defined trans to strictly be defined by your preferred treatment. What does this treatment look like for a man or a woman?",
">\n\nWhat about gender fluid? I don't completely understand it, but if a person feels like their gender is different at different times, as opposed to feeling \"neither\" or \"between\" genders, it seems to me that it's possible that they don't feel distressed at their assigned gender (at least some of the time.)\nThis view seems to amount to saying people can't or I guess shouldn't be able to change their gender without experiencing dysphoria. \nOther than making sure people are not making harmful choices, I don't really see what that accomplishes. You can't really stop someone from choosing to identify as a different gender, for whatever reason. All you can do is deny their gender preference, or interrogate them to try to find out if they have a good reason. I don't think that will lead to a positive outcome.",
">\n\nI think gender dysphoria is different for everyone. I believe someone can identify with nonbinary, given that they feel some semblance of dysphoria. I admit, I also do not understand gender fluidity, as I don't quite get how this feeling can be fluid.\nAnd yes, I completely agree with that last bit. I've said this before, but I'm not using this post as a way of harassing or disregarding others who identify as trans/choose to transition without dysphoria. I'm just trying to see if there are any major flaws in this belief, and also answer my questions on why someone would start this transition process without it.",
">\n\nThis is the best comment in this thread.",
">\n\nSuppose that a trans person transitions, and after transition they are able to pass, and they no longer experience any gender dysphoria. Is this person no longer trans? If they are still trans, then this is an instance of a trans person without gender dysphoria.",
">\n\nFirst of all. Trans is not an actual ontological category. It a man \"transitions\" into a woman. He is still a man, only with a severely mutilated body and the same mental illness.",
">\n\n\"Trans\" isn't an ontological category (and doesn't claim to be, at least in the sense of Husserl). A person is trans if their actual gender identity does not correspond to the one assigned to them at birth. The gender identity itself is the ontological category, not being trans in itself. A trans woman is ontologically a woman, just like any other woman: the only definitional difference between a trans woman and a cis woman is the gender they were assigned by society at birth.",
">\n\nA transwoman is a man who thinks he is a woman. You cannot be a woman just because you think of yourself as one.",
">\n\nThis is not true, just by definition and basic semantics. A trans woman is a woman (a woman who is trans) just like an American woman (a woman who is American) or a young woman (a woman who is young) or a rich woman (a woman who is rich) is a woman.",
">\n\nWhat is a woman?",
">\n\nYou...don't know what a woman is?",
">\n\nI'd love to hear your definition",
">\n\nTo give you a useful definition, I need to know where you're coming from, and how it is that you don't know what the word \"woman\" means. Is English not your native language? If so, you might be better served by a translation from your native language (basically all languages include translations of the word \"woman\") than by a definition in English.",
">\n\nSo you can’t define it?",
">\n\nHere's a question. If a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria, then gets some form of treatment, be it surgical, hormonal, therapeutic, whatever their doctors suggest, and it works and their distress is alleviated, how would you describe that person? Do they still suffer from gender dysphoria? Are they still trans? It seems to me like most people would consider a trans person who has undergone successful treatment could be a trans person without dysphoria. Would you disagree with that?\nEdit: A few others are commenting with similar things, so I'll skip ahead to the part 2 of this. My guess is you're response might be along the lines of \"sure, but that's obviously not what I meant\". But if you acknowledge that this state is possible, and you acknowledge that there is a diversity of trans people for whom different types of treatment makes sense, including some treatment that is not surgical or medication based, it would make sense that some trans folks just naturally find themselves in positive / supportive environments that essentially preemptively alleviate any dysphoria without needing explicit treatment, and for this reason may never be diagnosable with dysphoria at all, but the reason for that may because they're just naturally exposed to the sorts of environments that alleviate any distress. These people then may or may not decide that further transitions or treatments may make them even happier still, but they're likely never going to get any kind of formal diagnosis, because they are not feeling sensations of distress.",
">\n\nHi! I replied to this in another comment just now actually. I think I will do a quick edit to my post to address it.",
">\n\nOne of the core requirements of this subreddit is that you substantially respond to comments posted by other users, per Rule E. Simply referring users to a single response is not sufficient.",
">\n\nSorry, u/brocheckitoutwtf – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: \n\nComments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. \n\nComments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and \"written upvotes\" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information. \nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.",
">\n\nIf a trans person at every stage of their life, from child to adult, was affirmed and given the prompt and effective treatments they desire, they might go through their entire life without ever feeling gender related distress.\nDoes that mean they're not trans?",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nA. Not all trans people transition or need or want to. \nB. No trans people change their sex. They merely change their body to conform with their self-image. \nC. People change their bodies all the time without dysphoria simply because they want to.\nMost importantly, treatment is done to address dysphoria, so if someone has fully transitioned, they may no longer experience dysphoria. That doesn't mean they aren't trans anymore. It means the treatment was effective.\nWhat medical evidence informs this belief? Can you cite studies or consensus reports?",
">\n\n\nNot all trans people transition or need or want to. \n\nHow does this work? I thought transgender meant that you have transitioned yourself to look like the opposite sex?",
">\n\nHave you ever looked up the term \"transgender?\"",
">\n\nActually, no. When I first heard about this many years ago, we called them transsexuals and they were men who felt they were women trapped in men's bodies, or the other way around. Who got surgery and hormones to make themselves look and feel more like the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing?",
">\n\nDon't you think you should look up a term before attempting to define and discuss it?",
">\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me. If I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this. Why on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?",
">\n\n\nNot if I'm already familiar with the word, no.\n\nHow are you familiar of you don't know what it means since you've never looked it up?\n\nI just looked it up and this sounds absurd to me.\n\nComplex issues often seem absurd to the unstudied.\n\nIf I understand this correctly, they've expanded the definition of transsexual to include people who don't have gender dysphoria and people who don't want to transition.\n\nYou most definitely do not understand this correctly. \n\nI can see now why women are up in arms about this.\n\nAre they? They tend to be more likely LGBT allies than men.\n\nWhy on earth would we let men who aren't real transsexuals become honorary women?\n\nWhy on earth would we subscribe to your understanding of this issue when you literally just saw a definition for the first time?",
">\n\nu/Ok_Street9420 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: \n\nDon't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.\n\nIf you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.",
">\n\nMany people who are agender/gender fluid/on that spectrum are trans because they socially transitioned, and not necessarily because they experienced dysphoria.",
">\n\n\nGoogle defines gender dysphoria as the \"psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.\"\n\nOk, so the dysphoria part is the distress caused by this incongruence, not the incongruence itself.\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nYou generally wouldn't. But discomfort/unease is not the same as distress, in medical terms.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is a sensation rather than an aspect of identity. Someone who isn't trans could also feel gender dysphoria. Furthermore, trans people aren't in a constant state of gender dysphoria. Are you saying that having gender dysphoria at least once is a prerequisite to forming a trans identity?\nWhy do you associate the two so closely? I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about it.",
">\n\nCould you explain a bit more on the fact that non-trans folk experience GD? I believe there is a difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, and am curious if you've possibly linked the two, or maybe even have outside reasoning for why a non-trans person would feel that way.\nI associate the two so closely, mostly for the beginning of the transition process; how could someone know they need to transition into the other body if they do not feel as though they don't fit into this one? Once someone transitions medically, yes, the symptoms of being transgender (which I previously defined as gender dysphoria, although you say otherwise and I am curious to know more on) slowly get treated & therefore are no longer at the forefront of the person.\nOnce someone transitions, they will no longer feel dysphoria because their body matches their mind. But the problem is specifically in the beginning of the process, where they experience no dysphoria in the beginning at all but still claim to be transgender. How would they know they were trans at first, or know to transition since they don't feel the things transgender folks feel?",
">\n\n\nETA: everyone in the comments jumped on the argument of a post-everything trans person no longer feeling dysphoric. I will explain my stance on that here: if someone is ill and they receive continuous medication to block out/alleviate side effects of that illness, are they no longer ill? The answer is no.\n\nSo, this comparison doesn't really work.\nTaking continued medication is not the same as a gender transition. Continued medication to treat an illness has to be done on an ongoing basis, but a gender transition to overcome gender dysphoria is more like a one-and-done procedure.\nYour view would be more correct if it said \"to undergo a gender transition\", a one-time action, instead of \"be transgender\", a continuous state of being.",
">\n\nI guess, technically speaking, that is somewhat of my stance. I think transitioning should be allowed only in the case of gender dysphoria, and those who experience gender dysphoria are transgender. I don't quite understand how someone could be transgender and not experience dysphoria when that is what being transgender is — a biological issue. The continued question I keep asking is \"why would someone transition if they never experienced dysphoria to begin with?\" so I suppose that does correlate with gender dysphoria and transitioning.\nAlso, no, it is not a one-time solution type of thing. You need to take hormones monthly/weekly or your body will switch back to its biological sex. It requires continued treatment. If you stop taking hormones, a lot of the progress you made will be reverted. That is why I compared it to an illness.\nThe only exception is when you get that sex making organ removed (i.e ovaries for trans men), but even then, the ongoing use of medicine is required even more because otherwise your body won't have the hormones you need to continue on.",
">\n\nNon-binary people are transgender under your definition of gender dysphoria since their assigned sex at birth is incongruent with their gender identity. Some non-binary folks , however, myself included, hold out the hope of living in a society without gender identities. In that society, the concept of gender dysphoria would be incoherent; instead, everyone would have varying feelings about their bodies (The difference is between, on the one hand, being able to take for granted that some people have penises and feel okay about that, whereas other people have penises and don't, and, on the other, thinking that people who have penises and are not okay with them want to become women). Those with negative body feelings might undergo body modification surgery—but it wouldn't be gender re-assignment or affirming surgery in a society without gender. \nMy argument is, first, that if it's possible to conceive of such a society, then it's possible to conceive of a transgender person who does not experience gender dysphoria; instead, they merely experience body dysphoria. Second, I also think that contemporary genderfuckery—like drag that isn't trying to be \"fish\" or \"real\" (that is, to pass), public kink, and, heck, lolita and other androgynous-to-high-femme fashion subcultures—can be thought of as a proof-of-concept for such a society. I mean, just like how I can order a unisex Lolita dress in my size right now, maybe one day I can go into a clothing store where clothing is organized by type rather than by men's and women's.",
">\n\nYes, I believe nonbinary folk are transgender. \nI'm sorry, but I don't think I understand your dreams of a society without gender identities. It sounds like a recipe for disaster if there is lack of education on biology. Plus, the lack of teachings about transgenderism is what causes transphobia in the first place. Same with racism, misogyny, etc.",
">\n\nSo it seems that you're not fully convinced that gender is a social construct, which is not to say that it's not very consequential for how people live their lives. (This might be why you're getting pushback in queer circles, by the way; and I mean \"queer\" not, like, mainstream gay such as Pete Buttigieg, etc.)\nOne way of grasping that gender is wholly social is to think about animals. There are people who refer to all cats as female and all dogs as male, that is, with respective \"she\" and \"he\" pronouns, gendered descriptions (\"handsome,\" \"pretty\") etc. Any dog regardless of what genitalia it actually has can be referred to as if it were a \"boy\" dog; this would suggest that, unlike with people, there is no need to interpret physical appearance as if it indicated the kind of genitals. That dogs can be \"boys\" even after we flip them over and find (gasp) a vagina suggests that, first, genitalia do not necessarily indicate gender but only do so under contingent social conditions (e.g., genitalia on people), and, second, that, gender is not tied to biology but, rather, to what we understand biology to mean.",
">\n\nSo you're defining gender dysphoria in a post hoc way, if someone transitions then they have gender dysphoria, whether they say they're perfectly comfortable as they are or not.\nSo... what would change your mind? Because the way you're defining it makes this a non-falsifiable claim, you can always claim someone has dysphoria regardless of their testimony to the contrary.\nOr, how do you know someone has gender dysphoria?",
">\n\nThere’s zero point in gatekeeping being transgender. By saying “You NEED gender dysphoria to be trans” is you saying “IF YOU KNOW THAT YOURE TRANS AND DONT HAVE GENDER DYSPHORIA YOURE NOT TRANS😡😡😡” This is also like saying if you haven’t been in a same sex relationship before then you can’t be gay.",
">\n\nForgive me if I missed something in your post to clarify, or this has already been said to death. But it seems you're classifying transgender as someone who wants an actual sex change. If that's what you're talking about, I would agree. Gender dysphoria is the only legitimate reason for doing that. But many trans people DON'T want surgery or hormones, they simply represent and identify as the gender they feel that are, and have no problem with their bodies being what they are.",
">\n\nDysphoria isn’t always a criteria imo you’ll hear enough trans folk who didn’t necessarily feel poorly about their body before transitioning/starting to transition if you spend enough time \nInstead we should be looking at euphoria, the feeling one gets when they feel the most ‘themselves’, which is a way greater tool imo \nBeing ‘meh’ or otherwise uncaring about male pronouns but feeling ‘ecstatic’ when someone uses female pronouns for you, whether they’re doing it accidentally or on purpose, could be a greater clue than a low level dissatisfaction or ambivalence about one’s current body or presentation, for example",
">\n\nThis past week there was a beautiful article about a man who chose to dress as a traditional female but was happily married to the same woman, for many years. If I can find the link I will post it but it was absolutely beautiful and if you read that article and do not change your mind I would be very surprised.",
">\n\n“A ‘real man’ in a dress” is an article in the Washington Post December 21. If you read this and it doesn’t change your mind I will be shocked.",
">\n\n\nI believe that you need gender dysphoria to be transgender because of the lack of reason to transition otherwise. Why would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nFor fun. To rebel. Because you like how it looks. Because you want to experience something new. Because you can.\nMaybe I want to transform myself into a space dolphin so I can sail the liquid methane seas of Saturn's moon, Titan. Am I dysphoric? No, but if the technology is there, and society accepts me, that sounds like a lovely way of being.\nTranshumanism (of which transgenderism is sometimes considered a small part) is about accepting technological and social change and improving the human condition. Why not become something you aren't?",
">\n\nI don't not agree. The desire to be anything other than the gender you were born with doesn't always need dysphoria, all you need is the desire to experience and explore sexuality.",
">\n\nGender dysphoria is not a criteria to be transgender. If you read the DSM you’ll see that being transgender is one explanation for gender dysphoria. The DSM defines interpersonal dysfunction. If a person is able to overcome struggles on their own, they will never receive a diagnosis. Therefore, the diagnosis of gender dysphoria means that a person is struggling with their gender identity. The diagnosis doesn’t mean anything beyond that.",
">\n\nDoes a trans person who socially and/or physically transitioned and is happy with their gender presentation (and therefore not experiencing dysphoria) stop being trans? \nAll you need to be trans is to have a gender identity that doesn't match the one assigned to you at birth. Current or previous suffering is not a determining factor.",
">\n\nYour subject line is false as stated as literally every diagnostic standard in the field attests. \nThis I a factual question, not an opinion.",
">\n\nAlmost every transgender/non-binary person I know has attributed it to dysphoria itself, or dysphoria brought on by trauma, so I can’t exactly disagree on that, but I disagree that men can walk around with no problems. Are they the same problems as women’s problems? Probably not but they do have things to fear. My mom’s friend’s son was shot randomly at a red light for looking at someone. All he did was glance. Dude walked up and said, “Tf you looking at?” and shot him. Another guy was shot in his car in his parking spot in the lot in front of his apartment. All he was doing was listening to music about to go to a friend’s house. Men still get jumped and robbed.",
">\n\n\nWhy would you want to switch sexes when you felt no discomfort/unease in your body in the first place?\n\nI don't know, but I have a close friend who did just that. I assure you she's quite trans.\n\nIt is also medically proven that those who are transgender and experience dysphoria have brain waves that align with the gender they identify as rather than their gender at birth.\n\nNo it's not.\nThere are studies that show some population level differences between the brains of dysphoric binary trans women and cis folk, but none of them show a complete alignment with cis brains of either gender, none of them explain where gender identity or dysphoria arises from and how these differences might relate and none of them claim that the differences they do uncover are representative of every trans person. \n\nI believe that trans people who feel neutral at first in their AGAB are hiding under layers of internal transphobia, and only are able to celebrate gender euphoria because they now realize that what they felt before was gender dysphoria that they pushed down to mend well into society.\n\nNope. My friend for example doesn't recognise her pre transition life as bad or dysphoric, even now. She's post transition and has been for many years, and this just isn't her experience.",
">\n\nSee so many dudes walking around my suburb in dresses now who clearly aren’t trans and totally just doing it to get attention",
">\n\nBy definition, gender dysphoria is quite literally a prerequisite to transgenderism, but that doesn’t make their preferred identification or gender any less real. Just because gender dysphoria is by-the-books a disease, it doesn’t mean it needs to continue being classified as one. The overall opinion on gender dysphoria is a lot more nuanced than it used be. If all of your opinions are shaped by books written on historical norms, then sure, you are correct in a world that never adapts.\nThe issue is you maintain gender dysphoria is a bad thing just because that’s what you’ve always been told. The “condition” is likely just a sign that transitioning could be a mentally healthy decision for the dysphoric person. If you are willing to admit that transitioning can provide relief to a person, then you are also admitting that there can be truth to the gender dysphoria a person feels. The current definition and your definition of gender dysphoria is based on the principle that the dysphoric person is experiencing incorrect feelings. It would be pedantic of you to suggest your definition of gender dysphoria is not severely outdated. Therefore, there really is no productive outcome from your argument.\nI can say you’re right, but I can also say your outdated perception of gender dysphoria is the reason you feel this take needs to be argued in the first place.",
">\n\nThere's a big difference between philosophy and science, I think you need to start listening to science. It sounds to me like you're constantly trying to preach philosophy to circles of experts with lived experience and not willing to hear them.",
">\n\nThere's gender euphoria without gender dysphoria. Maybe you don't mind being addressed as your agab, but feel more happy and comfortable being trans. That's still valid. Also gender is just a fricking consept, it doesnt matter what your push factor is to being trans as long as you're not intentionally hurting someone and are being genuine to who you are. I think its awesome that there are trans people who don't experience dysphoria, good for them.",
">\n\nAlso its really none of your business why people transition and I think its stupid that the process is so difficult, I get it, its life altering to an extreme degree, but so is plastic surgery, but women who get bigger boobs dont have to explain why they want them or prove that they'd be unhappy without them, but you don't want boobs? Here fill out a years worth of paperwork proving you're unhappy with your body and you have to have your therapist confirm it, and some family or friends. It's absolutely ridiculous. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a process, but the one we have is out of date.\nIts all rooted in the stupid belief that \"females need to want to be feminine and males need to want to be masculine\"\nBoth masculinity and femininity are CONCEPTS \nNo one needs to feel like they need to feed the corrupted image of what society thinks a woman/man \"should\" look like\nIf someone wants to transition to be happier in their own skin, then so be it.\nIts a doctor's job to inform their patients of the risks \nAnd its not your place or anyone else's to tell someone they can't be trans because they don't hate themselves",
">\n\nI think first of all dysphoria can be a spectrum from low-to-high. And people can transition differently based on that.\nThe problem with this gatekeeping is in the practice. Currently, as-is, many trans folks are denied gender-affirming heath-care due to a lot of bureaucracy, lack of clinics, and on religious views of the doctors doing analysis as well, where doctors can refuse to recommend treatment as a matter of personal discretion with no oversight and farther action possible.\nNow, on top that, you are adding an additional layer of determining dysphoria, and this can further add to the bureaucracy.\nHere is Philosophy Tube's video about UK's NHS having several years of backlog queue at gender-clinics, often leading to people using unsafe products from the black-market or suffering from suicidal ideations as a result of this wait.",
">\n\nWhy does OP care? They aren’t Trans so why do they feel entitled to determine who is and isn’t, or more importantly, CAN and CAN’T be trans? Just because somebody has had a number of discussions about a topic, that doesn’t mean they are correct or even arguing in good faith",
">\n\nGood grief. Who tf cares. Whether they have gender dysphoria or not is as fluid as gender, so maybe they have dysphoria somes days and not others.",
">\n\nI think a good take on this whole thing is Contrapoints Transtrender. I don't really have much to say that isn't being touched upon in that one. \nIt might be worth pondering why you care so much about what some other people are doing with their own bodies. To me, it comes off a bit petty.",
">\n\nThank you. I will watch that video when my iPad charges.\nAlso, it's less of \"caring so much about others\" and more \"why do people believe ____?\" I am genuinely just curious on why someone would transition without dysphoria.",
">\n\nPersonally, I love horror movies. Getting scared is the best thing ever. But I simply cannot handle embarassing scenes.\nThis is something that always baffled me, that some people enjoy being scared, or enjoy second-hand embarassment, while it for others are flat-out unpleasant.\nWith this perspective, it wouldn't surprise me if some people simply didn't get any gender dysphoria, despite being ever so much trans. Maybe some brains are just wired to handle the mismatch differently, maybe they're have a different way of seeing themselves. Something."
] |
A guy that is obsessed with pics of himself shirtless on animals??? Impossible!!! | [] |
>
Just like adolf... | [
"A guy that is obsessed with pics of himself shirtless on animals??? Impossible!!!"
] |
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